Why is Kareem Abdul Jabbar so Underrated?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nba_jabbarhooks_800.jpg

Why is it when people discuss the Greatest player of all time the names that usually pop up are Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird or even Bill Russell, but rarely mention Kareem? I wasnt old enough(I'm 17 years old) to watch Kareem play. But i heard he was like a 7'2 version of Tim Duncan!!

Kareem won 6 titles same as M.J, won 6 MVP award which is more than anyone ever in the entire NBA, most career points scored and has been to 19 allstar games.

ISH whats up with that?

[Glide2keva]

There is no way the league's all time leading scorer is anywhere near underrated.

He gets his due credit.

[TDPrime2030]

Kareem played in the 70s and 80s, while Jordan played in the 80s and the 90s. They were both dominant as hell during their tenure in the NBA. It is only natural to have the latest guy that dominated be considered the greater/better player. Because you could say the same for Wilt and Russell. But they played in the 50s and 60s, so it is only natural to think Kareem and MJ was greater/better than both of them.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

There is no way the league's all time leading scorer is anywhere near underrated.

He gets his due credit.

then why is it he rarely called the GOAT:confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

Bill Simmons put it perfectly, he peaked during the dark ages of the NBA while having little team success when he first got to the Lakers. And some people just remember his later years when he couldn't defend or rebound when the NBA became popular during the mid-late 80's.

[RUCKER]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Kareem played in the 70s and 80s, while Jordan played in the 80s and the 90s. They were both dominant as hell during their tenure in the NBA. It is only natural to have the latest guy that dominated be considered the greater/better player. Because you could say the same for Wilt and Russell. But they played in the 50s and 60s, so it is only natural to think Kareem and MJ was greater/better than both of them.


But then why is it that MJ>Kobe :confusedshrug:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Bill Simmons put it perfectly, he peaked during the dark ages of the NBA while having little team success when he first got to the Lakers. And some people just remember his later years when he couldn't defend or rebound when the NBA became popular during the mid-late 80's.

any link to that article sir:pimp:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.

can you back up the info you wrote

[1987_Lakers]

any link to that article sir:pimp:
It's in his book. Gotta buy it.:pimp:

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Basketball-NBA-According-Sports/dp/034551176X

[DavisEver]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.
:facepalm Do us a favor, understand the concept and history of basketball.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

It's in his book. Gotta buy it.:pimp:

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Basketball-NBA-According-Sports/dp/034551176X

DAR IT:mad:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Underrated? most people have him in the top 3, definitely top 5. If to you thats underrated then you are retarded.

but why cant Kareem be consider better than Bird, Magic or MJ?

[YouCallILose]

Kareem converted to Islam during the heart of his prime which turned a lot of people off..unfortunately

[MrJohnWall]

Only reason people think Jordan is better then him is because of Nike commercials and fancy youtube highlights
Better all around stats
More MVPS
Same amount of rings
Longevity over Jordan, Stayed a elite player much longer then Jordan etc


Jordan really has no case over him

[TDPrime2030]

but why cant Kareem be consider better than Bird, Magic or MJ?
He is considered better than Bird and Magic, just not MJ...


But then why is it that MJ>Kobe :confusedshrug:
There are some that argue that Kobe is greater/better than MJ....I'm not one of those people, but I do know for a fact that there are people out there that do believe that. I think when Kobe retires, more people will understand how close the comparison of Kobe vs. MJ will be.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Nonsense. I'm the concensus #2 option for GOAT, onlyone arguable for #1 also.

[Fatal9]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.
Kareem faced Hakeem when he was the oldest player in the league. They put Hakeem on Kareem for a couple of games and Kareem scored 46 pts and 43 pts in back to back games - and he was 39 years old. He liked to teach any up and coming center he faced a lesson. He also put 40 pts on rookie Ewing that year. First game he played against Walton he gave him 50/15/11 (yes...a 50 point triple double).

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920
^ Here's the recap from Kareem's 46 pt game on Hakeem...

Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."

LA Times recap after the game:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

[N0Skillz]

I have KAJ as GOAT 0.o


He was the best player I have ever seen play

[G.O.A.T]

Bill Simmons put it perfectly, he peaked during the dark ages of the NBA while having little team success when he first got to the Lakers. And some people just remember his later years when he couldn't defend or rebound when the NBA became popular during the mid-late 80's.

This is it.

For the record everyone I talk to or read (with a few exceptions), whose opinion I value, has it down to six (Magic, Bird, Russ, Wilt, MJ, Kareem) in the conversation. I have it down to those six and think two stand out because of their drive to continue being great in the team game.

Jabbar is to me, the only guy who rivals Wilt in terms of individual brilliance.

[1987_Lakers]

Maybe because he didn't win shit in the 70's :confusedshrug:

1971:confusedshrug:

[wakencdukest]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.


He was in his late 30's, early 40's when he played against Olajuwon. His defense might have slipped at that point, but no one ever stopped the skyhook.

[necya]

http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nba_jabbarhooks_800.jpg

Why is it when people discuss the Greatest player of all time the names that usually pop up are Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird or even Bill Russell, but rarely mention Kareem? I wasnt old enough(I'm 17 years old) to watch Kareem play. But i heard he was like a 7'2 version of Tim Duncan!!

Kareem won 6 titles same as M.J, won 6 MVP award which is more than anyone ever in the entire NBA, most career points scored and has been to 19 allstar games.

ISH whats up with that?
Olajuwon and KAJ are my top 2 center.

[Manute for Ever!]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.

And Kareem didn't?!? You seriously need to learn a thing or two about basketball before posting ridiculous one-sided articles.

[T-bomb 25]

He should always be ranked ahead of Magic and neck and neck with Bird,i have no problem with someone having him #1 but he is 3rd on my list,and he should be ranked no lower than 4th anything under that is blasphemy and Russell and Magic are not top 5.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

He is considered better than Bird and Magic, just not MJ...


There are some that argue that Kobe is greater/better than MJ....I'm not one of those people, but I do know for a fact that there are people out there that do believe that. I think when Kobe retires, more people will understand how close the comparison of Kobe vs. MJ will be.

alright thanks bro

[Olliehoops]

Because everyone has Hakeem Olajuwon ranked above him. For good reason too, Hakeem showed him up every time they met on the court.

I'm new around here and haven't got a feel for the board dynamics yet.......but I think you were just totally b!tch-slapped with the facts.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Kareem faced Hakeem when he was the oldest player in the league. They put Hakeem on Kareem for a couple of games and Kareem scored 46 pts and 43 pts in back to back games - and he was 39 years old. He liked to teach any up and coming center he faced a lesson. He also put 40 pts on rookie Ewing that year. First game he played against Walton he gave him 50/15/11 (yes...a 50 point triple double).

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920
^ Here's the recap from Kareem's 46 pt game on Hakeem...

Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."

LA Times recap after the game:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

REAL TALKS BRO!!

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I'm new around here and haven't got a feel for the board dynamics yet.......but I think you were just totally *****-slapped with the facts.

Welcome to the InsideHoopsForums bro!!

I am OnceInADECADE biggest Michael Beasley fan/homer

and Rucker is an annoying stupid poster:cheers:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

He should always be ranked ahead of Magic and neck and neck with Bird,i have no problem with someone having him #1 but he is 3rd on my list,and he should be ranked no lower than 4th anything under that is blasphemy and Russell and Magic are not top 5.

but why Russell and no Wilt?

Am i missing something here?

[G.O.A.T]

but why Russell and no Wilt?

Am i missing something here?

Russell is usually ranked ahead of Wilt and was voted the greatest player of all-time over Wilt because he beat him seven of eight times. Including 3 of 4 when Wilt had better players around him and HCA.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Russell is usually ranked ahead of Wilt and was voted the greatest player of all-time over Wilt because he beat him seven of eight times. Including 3 of 4 when Wilt had better players around him and HCA.

:wtf: :wtf: didnt Bill play with like 11 hall of famers or something

who had the better team?

[T-bomb 25]

but why Russell and no Wilt?

Am i missing something here?Wilt is my #4

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

BTW there is so much I'm learing from the these ISH posters:applause:

[TDPrime2030]

:wtf: :wtf: didnt Bill play with like 11 hall of famers or something

who had the better team?
Everyone played with at the very least 1 HOFer on their team back in the 50s/60s. There were only 8 teams back then. And Bill didn't always have the better team than Wilt, but he did for the most part..

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Wilt is my #4

what's your list overall?

[G.O.A.T]

:wtf: :wtf: didnt Bill play with like 11 hall of famers or something

who had the better team?

By 1966 the only HOF'ers Russell had with him were KC Jones (in his last year), Sam Jones (end of his prime) and Havlicek (prime)

Wilt played with two hall of famers in their prime from '66-'69 (Cunningham and Greer iin Philly, West and Baylor in LA) and three more guys in their prime who were considered among the best at their position with the Sixers from '66-'68.

Also if you take the time to look into the subject you'll find that most of Russell's HOF teammates were only HOF'ers because they played with Russell and thus won titles. It's really interesting to learn about the early years of the NBA.

Expanding:

Wilt's team won more regular season games in 1966 thru 1969. Wilt won the regular season MVP from '66-'68.
Russell's Celtics did not win a division title in the regular season after 1965 and still won three more titles.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

By 1966 the only HOF'ers Russell had with him were KC Jones (in his last year), Sam Jones (end of his prime) and Havlicek.

Wilt played with two hall of famers in their prime and three more guys in their prime who were considered among the best at their position.

Also if you take the time to look into the subject you'll find that most of Russell's HOF teammates were only HOF'ers because they played with Russell and thus won titles. It's really interesting to learn about the early years of the NBA.

Yeah it is:cheers:

but i'm learing alot from you guys so its a good thing

keep it coming guys:applause:

[T-bomb 25]

:wtf: :wtf: didnt Bill play with like 11 hall of famers or something

who had the better team?This is the reason why Russell and Magic are not top 5 in my book,Russell even more so he was like 3rd on that team in scoring,so there is no way in hell he is top 5 he is a Center that didnt even shoot 45% from the field even Howard shoots 60+% and thus it lands him as the leading scorer on his team.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

This is the reason why Russell and Magic are not top 5 in my book,Russell even more so he was like 3rd on that team in scoring,so there is no way in hell he is top 5 he is a Center that didnt even shoot 45% from the field even Howard shoots 60+% and thus it lands him as the leading scorer on his team.

yeah. When i look @ Bill stats there is nothing that really standsout IMO except his rebounds.

i dont consider Bill a top 10 in my books

[New York Knicks]

I have Kareem at 1a.

[Duncan21formvp]

http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nba_jabbarhooks_800.jpg

Why is it when people discuss the Greatest player of all time the names that usually pop up are Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird or even Bill Russell, but rarely mention Kareem? I wasnt old enough(I'm 17 years old) to watch Kareem play. But i heard he was like a 7'2 version of Tim Duncan!!

Kareem won 6 titles same as M.J, won 6 MVP award which is more than anyone ever in the entire NBA, most career points scored and has been to 19 allstar games.

ISH whats up with that?

A lot has to do that in the 70's an era where a bunch of some of the weakest champions won such as the Warriors, Bullets and Sonics all of which were pretty much one man teams he didn't win at his peak.
He picked up a bunch of titles when he played with another top 5 player all time who also won 3 mvp's and even more finals mvp's than he did.
But even so, he is still top 3 all time.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]
1957-58 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Bob Pettit*-STL 26.3
2. Dolph Schayes*-SYR 24.2
3. George Yardley*-DET 23.3
4. Bill Russell*-BOS 22.8
5. Cliff Hagan*-STL 22.6
6. Neil Johnston*-PHW 22.5
7. Clyde Lovellette*-CIN 22.2
8. Maurice Stokes*-CIN 20.6
9. Larry Foust-MNL 20.0
10. Harry Gallatin*-DET 19.8
11. Frank Ramsey*-BOS 19.5
12. Jack Twyman*-CIN 18.9
13. Vern Mikkelsen*-MNL 18.9
14. Bill Sharman*-BOS 18.8
15. Kenny Sears-NYK 18.5
16. Ed Macauley*-STL 18.4
17. Tom Gola*-PHW 18.3
18. Paul Arizin*-PHW 18.2
19. Bob Cousy*-BOS 17.9
20. Red Kerr-SYR

1958-59 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Bob Pettit*-STL 28.2
2. Elgin Baylor*-MNL 23.6
3. Cliff Hagan*-STL 22.7
4. Kenny Sears-NYK 22.6
5. Paul Arizin*-PHW 21.9
6. Jack Twyman*-CIN 21.3
7. Dolph Schayes*-SYR 21.0
8. Bill Russell*-BOS 20.7
9. George Yardley*-TOT 20.5
10. Bob Cousy*-BOS 19.9
11. Red Kerr-SYR 19.4
12. Richie Guerin-NYK 19.0
13. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 17.9
14. Tom Gola*-PHW 17.4
15. Phil Jordon-DET 16.8
16. Bill Sharman*-BOS 16.8
17. Willie Naulls-NYK 16.5
18. Dick McGuire*-DET 16.5
19. Larry Foust-MNL 16.1
20. Vern Mikkelsen*-MNL


1959-60 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 28.0
2. Elgin Baylor*-MNL 25.2
3. Bob Pettit*-STL 23.7
4. Clyde Lovellette*-STL 23.3
5. Cliff Hagan*-STL 22.0
6. Kenny Sears-NYK 21.8
7. Richie Guerin-NYK 21.4
8. Jack Twyman*-CIN 21.1
9. Dolph Schayes*-SYR 20.5
10. Bill Russell*-BOS 20.1
11. Willie Naulls-NYK 20.0
12. Bob Cousy*-BOS 18.7
13. Bill Sharman*-BOS 18.5
14. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 18.4
15. George Yardley*-SYR 18.2
16. Bailey Howell*-DET 18.1
17. Paul Arizin*-PHW 17.2
18. Red Kerr-SYR 15.7
19. Larry Costello-SYR 15.6
20. Gene Shue-DET

1960-61 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 28.2
2. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 27.8
3. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 25.9
4. Bob Pettit*-STL 25.2
5. Bailey Howell*-DET 21.2
6. Clyde Lovellette*-STL 20.5
7. Cliff Hagan*-STL 20.1
8. Jack Twyman*-CIN 19.6
9. Dolph Schayes*-SYR 19.2
10. Willie Naulls-NYK 19.1
11. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 18.4
12. Bill Russell*-BOS 18.1
13. Richie Guerin-NYK 17.8
14. Sam Jones*-BOS 17.7
15. Bob Cousy*-BOS 17.4
16. Larry Costello-SYR 17.2
17. Paul Arizin*-PHW 17.1
18. Dick Barnett-SYR 17.1
19. Walter Dukes-DET 16.3
20. Hal Greer*-SYR

1961-62 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 31.8
2. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 26.5
3. Walt Bellamy*-CHP 26.3
4. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 26.0
5. Bob Pettit*-STL 24.3
6. Jerry West*-LAL 22.6
7. Richie Guerin-NYK 20.9
8. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 20.0
9. Bill Russell*-BOS 19.4
10. Cliff Hagan*-STL 19.4
11. Bailey Howell*-DET 19.1
12. Bob Cousy*-BOS 18.3
13. Wayne Embry-CIN 17.9
14. Sam Jones*-BOS 17.9
15. Willie Naulls-NYK 17.7
16. Hal Greer*-SYR 17.5
17. Red Kerr-SYR 17.4
18. Jack Twyman*-CIN 16.7
19. Rudy LaRusso-LAL 16.6
20. Dave Gambee-SYR

1962-63 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-SFW 31.8
2. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 26.6
3. Bob Pettit*-STL 25.0
4. Walt Bellamy*-CHZ 24.9
5. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 24.6
6. Jerry West*-LAL 21.9
7. Bailey Howell*-DET 21.6
8. Terry Dischinger-CHZ 20.8
9. Sam Jones*-BOS 19.1
10. Johnny Green-NYK 19.0
11. Richie Guerin-NYK 18.8
12. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 18.8
13. Red Kerr-SYR 18.6
14. Bill Russell*-BOS 18.2
15. Wayne Embry-CIN 18.2
16. Jack Twyman*-CIN 17.8
17. Hal Greer*-SYR 17.3
18. Bob Cousy*-BOS 16.6
19. Dick Barnett-LAL 16.3
20. John Havlicek*-BOS 15.4

1963-64 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-SFW 31.6
2. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 27.6
3. Jerry West*-LAL 24.2
4. Bob Pettit*-STL 23.6
5. Walt Bellamy*-BAL 23.3
6. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 21.1
7. Bailey Howell*-DET 21.1
8. Terry Dischinger-BAL 19.6
9. Bill Russell*-BOS 19.3
10. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 18.9
11. Johnny Green-NYK 18.1
12. Hal Greer*-PHI 17.7
13. Sam Jones*-BOS 17.7
14. Red Kerr-PHI 17.1
15. Tom Heinsohn*-BOS 17.0
16. Cliff Hagan*-STL 16.9
17. Ray Scott-DET 16.9
18. John Havlicek*-BOS 16.9
19. Len Chappell-TOT 16.7
20. Gus Johnson-BAL 16.3

1964-65 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-TOT 28.6
2. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 26.7
3. Jerry West*-LAL 25.0
4. Walt Bellamy*-BAL 21.7
5. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 20.9
6. Sam Jones*-BOS 20.7
7. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 20.5
8. Bill Russell*-BOS 19.5
9. Bailey Howell*-BAL 18.9
10. Bob Boozer-NYK 17.8
11. Willis Reed*-NYK 17.8
12. Terry Dischinger-DET 17.7
13. Dave DeBusschere*-DET 17.4
14. Zelmo Beaty-STL 17.2
15. Gus Johnson-BAL 16.6
16. Nate Thurmond*-SFW 16.5
17. Hal Greer*-PHI 16.3
18. John Havlicek*-BOS 16.3
19. Rudy LaRusso-LAL 16.2
20. Lenny Wilkens*-STL 15.6

1965-66 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHI 28.3
2. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 25.2
3. Jerry West*-LAL 24.6
4. Sam Jones*-BOS 21.7
5. Rick Barry*-SFW 20.0
6. Walt Bellamy*-TOT 19.3
7. Bailey Howell*-BAL 19.0
8. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 18.8
9. Zelmo Beaty-STL 18.5
10. Dick Barnett-NYK 18.4
11. Bill Russell*-BOS 17.3
12. Ray Scott-DET 17.1
13. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 16.9
14. Guy Rodgers-SFW 16.9
15. John Havlicek*-BOS 16.7
16. Rudy LaRusso-LAL 16.4
17. Richie Guerin-STL 16.3
18. Lenny Wilkens*-STL 15.9
19. Hal Greer*-PHI 15.9
20. Billy Cunningham*-PHI 15.7

1966-67 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHI 26.5
2. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 25.5
3. Rick Barry*-SFW 24.2
4. Jerry West*-LAL 22.7
5. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 20.2
6. Willis Reed*-NYK 19.7
7. Bailey Howell*-BOS 19.5
8. Billy Cunningham*-PHI 19.3
9. John Havlicek*-BOS 19.2
10. Bill Russell*-BOS 18.6
11. Sam Jones*-BOS 18.5
12. Bob Boozer-CHI 18.4
13. Walt Bellamy*-NYK 18.4
14. Chet Walker-PHI 17.9
15. Guy Rodgers-CHI 17.9
16. Gus Johnson-BAL 17.6
17. Nate Thurmond*-SFW 17.4
18. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 16.9
19. Bill Bridges-STL 16.8
20. Dave Bing*-DET 16.5

1967-68 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHI 24.7
2. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 24.6
3. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 21.0
4. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 19.8
5. Willis Reed*-NYK 19.5
6. Mahdi Abdul-Rahman-SEA 19.4
7. Zelmo Beaty-STL 19.3
8. Earl Monroe*-BAL 19.3
9. Walt Bellamy*-NYK 19.1
10. Lenny Wilkens*-STL 19.0
11. Nate Thurmond*-SFW 19.0
12. Bob Boozer-CHI 18.6
13. Billy Cunningham*-PHI 18.6
14. Dave Bing*-DET 18.5
15. Sam Jones*-BOS 18.3
16. Bailey Howell*-BOS 18.1
17. John Havlicek*-BOS 17.7
18. Rudy LaRusso-SFW 17.5
19. Bob Rule-SEA 17.4
20. Flynn Robinson-TOT 17.2

1968-69 NBA Expanded Leaders

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Jerry West*-LAL 22.3
2. Wilt Chamberlain*-LAL 21.9
3. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 21.8
4. Willis Reed*-NYK 21.4
5. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 20.7
6. Jerry Lucas*-CIN 20.6
7. Walt Frazier*-NYK 20.2
8. Bob Boozer-CHI 19.9
9. Bailey Howell*-BOS 19.4
10. Zelmo Beaty-ATL 19.1
11. Jeff Mullins-SFW 18.9
12. Elvin Hayes*-SDR 18.9
13. Billy Cunningham*-PHI 18.7
14. Lou Hudson-ATL 18.7
15. Flynn Robinson-TOT 18.6
16. Bob Rule-SEA 18.6
17. Nate Thurmond*-SFW 18.4
18. Earl Monroe*-BAL 18.4
19. Lenny Wilkens*-SEA 18.4
20. Wes Unseld*-BAL 18.

Russell is the Luckiest Supertar in ALL SPORTS. That

[TDPrime2030]

yeah. When i look @ Bill stats there is nothing that really standsout IMO except his rebounds.

i dont consider Bill a top 10 in my books
Understand that 45% shooting looks like crap now-a-days, but back in the 50s/60s, that was basically the average. Because Russell was Top 5-7 in fg% during his tenure in the NBA. So although it looks like crap now, it was actually average to above average back in those days.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I have Kareem at 1a.

who 1b?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

A lot has to do that in the 70's an era where a bunch of some of the weakest champions won such as the Warriors, Bullets and Sonics all of which were pretty much one man teams he didn't win at his peak.
He picked up a bunch of titles when he played with another top 5 player all time who also won 3 mvp's and even more finals mvp's than he did.
:cheers: nice info

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Understand that 45% shooting looks like crap now-a-days, but back in the 50s/60s, that was basically the average. Because Russell was Top 5-7 in fg% during his tenure in the NBA. So although it looks like crap now, it was actually average to above average back in those days.

45% is an average nowadays as well i believe.

[TDPrime2030]

45% is an average nowadays as well i believe.
For wing players, Yes. For Bigs? No. Bigs shooting the 50-60% zone. Back in the day, shooting 45% for everybody in the league was the norm, not just wings, PGs, or bigs. Everybody shot around that percentage.

[Duncan21formvp]

Biggest grief with Kareem is that his teammate ended up with more finals mvp's than he did. His teammate won 3 of them when they were together and he won only 1. Not to mention he won 5 of his 6 titles with him. Nothing wrong with that, but it is something wrong with being ranked higher when you win half your titles with a player considered the best or 2nd best player in the league and who was better than you were. Examples: 1985, 1987 and 1988.

[D.J.]

I've never seen Kareem underrated. Even in his late 30s, he was still extremely effective. I've never seen him ranked lower than third in all-time rankings. All lists I've seen and heard have Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem as the top three of all-time. The order however, varies.

[G.O.A.T]

This is the reason why Russell and Magic are not top 5 in my book,Russell even more so he was like 3rd on that team in scoring,so there is no way in hell he is top 5 he is a Center that didnt even shoot 45% from the field even Howard shoots 60+% and thus it lands him as the leading scorer on his team.

Why does a player need to be the teams leading scorer?

In the 1960's there were nine teams; every team was loaded with guys who led their team in scoring in college. Everyone on the Celtics could score; no one else could grab 20+ rebounds and block 10 shots a game. So Russell chose to win games and focus his energy on filling his teams weaknesses.

In College he averaged over 20 ppg, led his team in scoring because they needed it. He lost one game in his final seasons combined and won two NCAA titles.

In game seven of the 1962 Finals when Cousy was like 3-20, Sharman 4-18, and Sam Jones got off to a 2-12 start (estimated numbers, but they are very close), Russell comes up with 30 points and 40 rebounds.

When he needed to score, he did. When other guys had it going, he deferred to them. He has the highest career playoff assists average of any center in NBA history. His regular season average is second amongst centers, and first if you exclude Wilt Chamberlain's 1968 season in which he deliberate set out to lead the league in assists. (Wilt's average is 4.4, Russell's is 4.3)

Also Russell's field goal percentage was over the league average consistently and usually one of the top ones on his team despite them running no plays for him to get a shot.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

For wing players, Yes. For Bigs? No. Bigs shooting the 50-60% zone. Back in the day, shooting 45% for everybody in the league was the norm, not just wings, PGs, or bigs. Everybody shot around that percentage.

ok were i thought you were talking bot the league in general

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Biggest grief with Kareem is that his teammate ended up with more finals mvp's than he did. His teammate won 3 of them when they were together and he won only 1. Not to mention he won 5 of his 6 titles with him. Nothing wrong with that, but it is something wrong with being ranked higher when you win half your titles with a player considered the best or 2nd best player in the league and who was better than you were. Examples: 1985, 1987 and 1988.

but Magic didnt win w/o him

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Why does a player need to be the teams leading scorer?

In the 1960's there were nine teams; every team was loaded with guys who led their team in scoring in college. Everyone on the Celtics could score; no one else could grab 20+ rebounds and block 10 shots a game. So Russell chose to win games and focus his energy on filling his teams weaknesses.

In College he averaged over 20 ppg, led his team in scoring because they needed it. He lost one game in his final seasons combined and won two NCAA titles.

In game seven of the 1962 Finals when Cousy was like 3-20, Sharman 4-18, and Sam Jones got off to a 2-12 start (estimated numbers, but they are very close), Russell comes up with 30 points and 40 rebounds.

When he needed to score, he did. When other guys had it going, he deferred to them. He has the highest career playoff assists average of any center in NBA history. His regular season average is second amongst centers, and first if you exclude Wilt Chamberlain's 1968 season in which he deliberate set out to lead the league in assists. (Wilt's average is 4.4, Russell's is 4.3)

Also Russell's field goal percentage was over the league average consistently and usually one of the top ones on his team despite them running no plays for him to get a shot.

great post GOAT:applause:

[G.O.A.T]

Found this on another thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153453

The notion that Russell is lucky is absurd.

The Celtics never even made it to the Finals before Russell, won 11 titles in his 13 years and finished in last place for two straight season after he retired.

Who was lucky? Russell? or the Celtics?

(The answer is the Celtics, just ask them)

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I've never seen Kareem underrated. Even in his late 30s, he was still extremely effective. I've never seen him ranked lower than third in all-time rankings. All lists I've seen and heard have Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem as the top three of all-time. The order however, varies.

I seen some list people ranked him like 7th or 6th:facepalm

[D.J.]

but Magic didnt win w/o him


He only played 2 full seasons without Kareem. In 1990, they won over 60 games and in 1991, they made the Finals.

[T-bomb 25]

what's your list overall?Some people may not like these choices or they may want to move them around to suit their taste but this is how i rank them.

1.Jordan
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Dunkan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson/Russell

[D.J.]

I seen some list people ranked him like 7th or 6th:facepalm


I've never seen that and it's absurd. He's no lower than third. I have Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem as my top three.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Some people may not like these choices or they may want to move them around to suit their taste but this is how i rank them.

1.Jordan
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Dunkan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson/Russell

pretty good list IMO

[D.J.]

Some people may not like these choices or they may want to move them around to suit their taste but this is how i rank them.

1.Jordan
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Dunkan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson/Russell


Magic at 9??? :wtf:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I've never seen that and it's absurd. He's no lower than third. I have Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem as my top three.

Same.

Kareem, Wilt and MJ round out my top 3

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Magic at 9??? :wtf:

that was the only thing i would have changed

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

He only played 2 full seasons without Kareem. In 1990, they won over 60 games and in 1991, they made the Finals.

but lost

[G.O.A.T]

As for Magic not winning without Kareem...

In 1988 Kareem was barely a factor. A nice piece, but probably their sixth or seventh best player and second best center.

Even in 1987 he was a third option or third or fourth best player.

At that point it's no more significant than saying Magic never won without Michael Cooper.

As for people having Wilt over Russell...why did Russell win seven of eight times? And if your answer is teammates, explain why because that's not the conclusion I draw from researching their rosters.

[D.J.]

but lost


So? They lost in the Finals in Kareem's last season. He won 63 games without him in one season and made the Finals in the other season. Also, Magic was already 30 when Kareem retired.

[T-bomb 25]

that was the only thing i would have changedWhere would you put him? he was sometimes the 3rd option behind KAJ and Worthy dont forget that,the guys ahead of him except for maybe Kobe while he was with Shaq are number 1 options.

[Olliehoops]

Welcome to the InsideHoopsForums bro!!

I am OnceInADECADE biggest Michael Beasley fan/homer

and Rucker is an annoying stupid poster:cheers:

Thanks. I'm a Hornets bandwagon jumper CP3 fanboy.

As to the OP's question. Kareem was a beast. Virtually unstoppable within 10 feet of the basket. However, we are in a guard driven era and most of the hyperbole involves comparing the great backcourt players of today to those of yesterday and the big guys are often left out of the discussion. Personally, I find it difficult to compare guards to centers or forwards for that matter.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Where would you put him? he was sometimes the 3rd option behind KAJ and Worthy dont forget that,the guys ahead of him except for maybe Kobe while he was with Shaq are number 1 options.

5 or 4

Bird and Magic are 5-4

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Thanks. I'm a Hornets bandwagon jumper CP3 fanboy.

As to the OP's question. Kareem was a beast. Virtually unstoppable within 10 feet of the basket. However, we are in a guard driven era and most of the hyperbole involves comparing the great backcourt players of today to those of yesterday and the big guys are often left out of the discussion. Personally, I find it difficult to compare guards to centers or forwards for that matter.

alright cool.

Dont let stupid trolls bother you. I use to be a troll myself, but now i have controlled myself

[Duncan21formvp]

My List

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

MJ and Kareem are the top 2 because they have the rings, accolades, efficiency and the stats. I think to be a GOAT candidate you need to have all of them. Be great on both ends of the court as well. But I rank MJ ahead of Kareem simply because he won his titles as the best on his team but also the best in the league while at least for half of Kareem's he was the 2nd best or even 3rd best on his team (1988).

[T-bomb 25]

So? They lost in the Finals in Kareem's last season. He won 63 games without him in one season and made the Finals in the other season. Also, Magic was already 30 when Kareem retired.So Magic was a #2 or a #3 option for nearly a decade?now come on how can he be top 5 and mentioned as the GOAT?not possible these are just facts,its not really opinions.

[G.O.A.T]

So Magic was a #2 or a #3 option for nearly a decade?now come on how can he be top 5 and mentioned as the GOAT?not possible these are just facts,its not really opinions.

Second or third leading scorer, but that was by his choice. Nobody had the ball in their hands nearly as much as Magic and nobody was on one end or the other of more Laker scoring plays or shots taken then him.

[T-bomb 25]

My List

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

MJ and Kareem are the top 2 because they have the rings, accolades, efficiency and the stats. I think to be a GOAT candidate you need to have all of them. Be great on both ends of the court as well. But I rank MJ ahead of Kareem simply because he won his titles as the best on his team but also the best in the league while at least for half of Kareem's he was the 2nd best or even 3rd best on his team (1988).Sorry but their is no way that Magic is ahead of Bird,Larry was the undisputed #1 option on his team of ATG's.

[Fatal9]

Russell is usually ranked ahead of Wilt and was voted the greatest player of all-time over Wilt because he beat him seven of eight times. Including 3 of 4 when Wilt had better players around him and HCA.
Russell probably wasn't the the best player on the team in '68 and '69. And putting aside his poor stats in those two years, I'm not sure why it's "Russell beat Wilt" when it was Celtics beat Lakers/Sixers. I have no problem giving Russell credit when it was due, to me he outplayed Wilt in the '62 matchup, I have him higher than Wilt all-time on most days, but he didn't beat Wilt, the Celtics did and at times Wilt beat himself (especially at the FT line).

Watch game 7 of the '69 finals for example. Russell was blowing the game because he got too excited after Mel Counts began guarding him with Wilt out. Began chucking brick after brick and Lakers made a run, but thankfully Don Nelson's miracle shot saved him from the blame which he would have received. Russell also didn't guard Wilt at the end of the '68 ECF series, it was Wayne Embry who shut down Wilt in the final two games after Wilt was killing Russell in the previous games (props to Russell for asking Embry to guard Wilt though) and that was what changed that series.


In game seven of the 1962 Finals when Cousy was like 3-20, Sharman 4-18, and Sam Jones got off to a 2-12 start (estimated numbers, but they are very close), Russell comes up with 30 points and 40 rebounds.
You can watch footage of the game and see Cousy absolutely DOMINATING on offense in the half an hour stretch they show (including feeding Russell to get his points).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwfV8BFl1A

here's the game, let me know if other people see things differently but despite the poor shooting Cousy was the best offensive player who was making everyone (including Russell) better. I'm pretty sure he had a hand in every Celtic point we see. A 30 point game in double overtime does not prove anything about his scoring abilities. We don't know his shooting numbers, nor do we have rest of the game footage because I only see Cousy feeding him easy shots in transition. I could just as easily point to Russell's 2/7 shooting in the '69 finals game 7, his 7/17 shooting in game 7 of '57 finals in games his teams definitely could have got more offense as examples of where he scored more in line with his averages.


The Celtics never even made it to the Finals before Russell
But...the Celtics were the second best team in the league record wise before they drafted Russell. That same year they also drafted Tommy Heinsohn (whose big game 7 won them the championship). Russell missed a significant part of the rookie season, and Celtics still had the best record in the league without him. Celtics were a very good team before they got Russell, and a dynasty after they added him, Heinsohn, Sam Jones etc. Even when they lost a player like Cousy in '62, they replaced him with John Havlicek.

This is a way better starting situation than Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Bird etc had, who were drafted to some of the worst teams in the league.

[D.J.]

So Magic was a #2 or a #3 option for nearly a decade?now come on how can he be top 5 and mentioned as the GOAT?not possible these are just facts,its not really opinions.


Magic was a playermaker first and foremost. Prior to '87, Magic cracked 20 PPG only once. He didn't start scoring more and attempting more shots until Kareem started to noticably decline. Prior to that, he was attempting 11-12 shots a night. That went to 14-15 a night when he need to start taking over offensively. Magic got to the Finals with a 30 year old Byron Scott, Sam Perkins, and Vlade Divac in the starting lineup.

[Duncan21formvp]

Sorry but their is no way that Magic is ahead of Bird,Larry was the undisputed #1 option on his team of ATG's.

Biggest problem with Bird is he lost the most series of any of the top 10 players with HCA. He lost 7 playoff series with HCA and he Never won any playoff series without it.

[EvanW]

"Underrating" Kareem is relative. Saying he's "just" top ten all time would be underrating him.

The reason he gets it was because he was in his prime in the 70's. He was the prime member of the '71 Bucks which was one of the greatest teams of all time. He won the championship, but only in that year. It's significant because the second half of the 1970's is probably weakest era in terms of talent that NBA has seen since before the Bill Russel Celtic era, yet he never won again with the Bucks.

This can be attributed to a number of things. It was possible he just didn't care about the game, because of a lot of life issues he was dealing with, involving his faith. Somebody earlier in the thread also said that he has the same number of titles as MJ. True, but he wasn't undefeated in the finals like MJ was.

Again, all of this is relative. They both represent supreme greatness. It's just comparing one's accomplishments to the other, and for Kareem, it's a case of him having the possibility of accomplishing so much more, especially in the '70's.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Russell probably wasn't the the best player on the team in '68 and '69. And putting aside his poor stats in those two years, I'm not sure why it's "Russell beat Wilt" when it was Celtics beat Lakers/Sixers. I have no problem giving Russell credit when it was due, to me he outplayed Wilt in the '62 matchup, I have him higher than Wilt all-time on most days, but he didn't beat Wilt, the Celtics did and at times Wilt beat himself (especially at the FT line).

Watch game 7 of the '69 finals for example. Russell was blowing the game because he got too excited after Mel Counts began guarding him with Wilt out. Began chucking brick after brick and Lakers made a run, but thankfully Don Nelson's miracle shot saved him from the blame which he would have received. Russell also didn't guard Wilt at the end of the '68 ECF series, it was Wayne Embry who shut down Wilt in the final two games after Wilt was killing Russell in the previous games (props to Russell for asking Embry to guard Wilt though) and that was what changed that series.


You can watch footage of the game and see Cousy absolutely DOMINATING on offense in the half an hour stretch they show (including feeding Russell to get his points).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwfV8BFl1A

here's the game, let me know if other people see things differently but despite the poor shooting Cousy was the best offensive player who was making everyone (including Russell) better. I'm pretty sure he had a hand in every Celtic point we see. A 30 point game in double overtime does not prove anything about his scoring abilities. We don't know his shooting numbers, nor do we have rest of the game footage because I only see Cousy feeding him easy shots in transition. I could just as easily point to Russell's 2/7 shooting in the '69 finals game 7, his 7/17 shooting in game 7 of '57 finals in games his teams definitely could have got more offense as examples of where he scored more in line with his averages.


But...the Celtics were the second best team in the league record wise before they drafted Russell. That same year they also drafted Tommy Heinsohn (whose big game 7 won them the championship). Russell missed a significant part of the rookie season, and Celtics still had the best record in the league without him. Celtics were a very good team before they got Russell, and a dynasty after they added him, Heinsohn, Sam Jones etc. Even when they lost a player like Cousy in '62, they replaced him with John Havlicek.

This is a way better starting situation than Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Bird etc had, who were drafted to some of the worst teams in the league.

great post:applause:

[Mr. Jabbar]

You don't get to rank KAJ below #2 GOAT list and expect to get any respect from people that actually know the sport.

[boozehound]

Kareem played in the 70s and 80s, while Jordan played in the 80s and the 90s. They were both dominant as hell during their tenure in the NBA. It is only natural to have the latest guy that dominated be considered the greater/better player. Because you could say the same for Wilt and Russell. But they played in the 50s and 60s, so it is only natural to think Kareem and MJ was greater/better than both of them.
except they werent. Kareem was great, dont get me wrong, but he never had a stretch of domination like MJ. Had issues with Walton head to head (who wouldnt) and half those titles are on a team where he was clearly the 2nd or 3rd banana later in his career. that being said, he gets plenty of respect

[Pointguard]

Kareem most definitely could have been GOAT but he kind of dogged a lot of his years. He frequently walked up the court sometimes appearing a full 10 seconds behind Magic. He could have lead the league in rebounds a good six or seven years but pulled it off once. He could have lead the league in blocks seven or eight years but pulled off 4x's. He could have been the top scorer eight or nine years but he pulled off 2x's. The 70's were bad so he should have had a couple more rings in there. If he just had pulled off half of the things he should have pulled off, he's GOAT.

With him dogging it and then Magic comes aboard and all of sudden he has a renewed vigor for the game. It looked like another contender for GOAT kept him focused and really looked like Magic lead him. Obviously, Magic gains ground while Kareem looses ground. Motivation was a problem with Kareem. He was a sensitive guy that had trouble with focus. Most unstoppable shot yes, complete game yes, formidible opponent yes. Was into the game no all the time, no. Was near his potential, no.

[AirJordan&Magic]

except they werent. Kareem was great, dont get me wrong, but he never had a stretch of domination like MJ. Had issues with Walton head to head (who wouldnt) and half those titles are on a team where he was clearly the 2nd or 3rd banana later in his career. that being said, he gets plenty of respect

No, he doesn't get the respect he deserves and post like this is the reason he doesn't.

I would like you to clarify "stretch of domination". Because Kareem in his prime was about as, if not, more dominant that any player in Nba history. Including Jordan.
The difference is that during most of his prime years, he wasn't surrounded with a team that he could win championships with. And he still brought these teams deep into the playoffs.

And he didn't have issues with Walton. His TEAM had issues matching with Walton's team.

And half of his title as a "2nd or 3rd banana"??? Besides his 1987 & 1988 championship rings, he was not a "2nd banana" on any of those other title teams.
From 1980-1986, Kareem was not only their clear leader..... He was the main scoring option, leading scorer, and their defensive anchor.

I do not think Kareem is underrated, but he is definitely an underappreciated player.

[G.O.A.T]

From 1980-1986, Kareem was not only their clear leader..... He was the main scoring option, leading scorer, and their defensive anchor.
I do not think Kareem is underrated, but he is definitely an underappreciated player.

I wouldn't call him a second banana in that period either, but he was not their clear leader. Ownership was clearly behind Magic from 1981-82 on. The players were split and most undecided, Magic won a lot of them over with his performance leading up to and in game six in 1980 and though some of his veteran teammates resented his acclaim and attention. The media identified Magic as the more valuable player every season from '82 on as well.

I have a thread on it in here that says it better than I will now, but it was pretty much a case of Kareem not caring enough about being a leader to be the leader and yet being to proud to acknowledge Magic as the leader and Magic being a little bit immature both in his all-around offensive game and his readiness to lead the entire team.

Before the 86-87 season Riley went to Magic and Kareem and explained that Magic had to be the leader now. Kareem agreed and Magic was confused at first thinking he already was. Riley explained further what he meant and Magic understood, in his own words, after he hit the baby sky hook in game four of the '87 Finals.

[Pointguard]

Jordan doesn't lack in nearly any criteria for greatness. He dominated in an era when Shaq was pure monster. The bigger the stage the separation of him and the other players was obvious. Even in the age of the most great centers he was obviously a notch above them. He made the big shots, he's the best scorer ever. His defense was so feared that teams tried not to pass the ball on his side of the court. His competitve edge was not surpassed. Only Wilt was in the class of athlete he was in the GOAT discussion.

Wilt has the GOAT stats. Its a joke to compare anybody to him. His feats are Great and Great all over the place. He not only got 20 20 20 games but 70, 40games as well. Many of his records will never be broken. You compare his highs in rebounds and points not to other players but whole other teams. He had the greatest separation between him and other players. Russell was considered the games top rebounder so Wilt set the record of 55 rebounds on him. And Russell got the same treatment everybody else got. Wilt was a marvel of endurance and incredible accomplishments. Most of great accomplishments were 4 or 5 years before his prime when coaching coached down his game. When using the word great, you used it most on Wilt. Greatest Scorer, Rebounder and shot blocker (sobeit, not confirmed yet) and assist man in the pivot. His records and game, changed the game.

Russell was a great winner 11 out of 13 years. In the playoffs he would up his rebound count significantly. Only Chamberlain has a higher boards per game career stat but Russ was at 22.5. He also could put out monster scoring games here and there in the playoffs. Was super competitive and won many times at the expense of Chamberlain on the opposite team. He blocked shots and kept the ball in play. Is said to have revolutionized defensive scouting. Consistenly had big games in the playoffs. Was obssessed with winning.

[inclinerator]

kareem underrated by barkley again

[Pointguard]

No, he doesn't get the respect he deserves and post like this is the reason he doesn't.

I would like you to clarify "stretch of domination". Because Kareem in his prime was about as, if not, more dominant that any player in Nba history. Including Jordan.
The difference is that during most of his prime years, he wasn't surrounded with a team that he could win championships with. And he still brought these teams deep into the playoffs.

And he didn't have issues with Walton. His TEAM had issues matching with Walton's team.

And half of his title as a "2nd or 3rd banana"??? Besides his 1987 & 1988 championship rings, he was not a "2nd banana" on any of those other title teams.
From 1980-1986, Kareem was not only their clear leader..... He was the main scoring option, leading scorer, and their defensive anchor.
I do not think Kareem is underrated, but he is definitely an underappreciated player.

That is not true. Magic was the clear leader. Kareem was always a distant guy - hard to reach. Magic controlled pace, Magic waited for slow poke to get down court. Magic distributed the ball. Magic kept the team and Kareem focused. Magic was the definitve motor of the team. Magic was the emotional leader and the soul of the team.

[bdreason]

Kareem isn't underrated by people who know the game. The general public underrates him because he didn't dominate in the media era like Jordan did.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem is the GOAT.

Nobody else dominated every single level like he did.

[rammerman]

He was one ugly mother ****er

[SinJackal]

I have never seen a single person's GOAT list not have Kareem in their top 5. In fact, I have never seen him lower than #4 unless it involved a troll.

He's usually rated between 1-3 on almost every list I've seen, and rightfully so. The only players I see typically ranked above him are Michael Jordan and Bill Russel. Wilt is sometimes rated above him too, but not usually.

I would have to say, unless you think Kareem deserves to be ranked #1 all time, then he is not underrated at all. Only trolls or people who don't know who he was rate him any lower than 4-5.

[jbryan1984]

I think he is #1 all time center, and this is coming from a huge Shaq fan. Yep, better than Wilt too. But ya, when I talk to non basketball fans, he is never in the discussion but they usually have heard his name. Kareem played till what age 42? He still managed to make the all-star game his last year. Sure, in the 80's his game declined and he became #2 to Magic and maybe Worthy to but he could still go pretty good for his age. People forget he is the all time leading scorer, not Michael. I'm sure there are people out there who don't even understand that new commercial with Karl Malone :facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

That is not true. Magic was the clear leader. Kareem was always a distant guy - hard to reach. Magic controlled pace, Magic waited for slow poke to get down court. Magic distributed the ball. Magic kept the team and Kareem focused. Magic was the definitve motor of the team. Magic was the emotional leader and the soul of the team.

Actually that's not accurate either.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Magic didn't take full control until the 1986-87 season when Riley sat down separately with he and Kareem and said it had to be Magic's show now. Prior to that according to both Magic and Riley in their most recent books discussing the topic, there was no definitive leader. It was Magic who the franchise was building around and for, but Kareem was too proud to concede leadership. It was Jabbar who stepped up and led the team after the game one blowout in the 1985 Finals.

[Pointguard]

Actually that's not accurate either.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Magic didn't take full control until the 1986-87 season when Riley sat down separately with he and Kareem and said it had to be Magic's show now. Prior to that according to both Magic and Riley in their most recent books discussing the topic, there was no definitive leader. It was Magic who the franchise was building around and for, but Kareem was too proud to concede leadership. It was Jabbar who stepped up and led the team after the game one blowout in the 1985 Finals.

Showtime was Magic time.

I'm not talking about what was said... . Things were continuously said to pacify Kareem. Because of the kid gloves thing it seems like a dubious thing (the leadership issue) when you read about it but when you see it, it isn't a question. Kareen always was and is a distant guy. The guy threw a hissy fit when Magic went in the center position and turned out a game he couldn't equal. Who does that to a rookie?

Magic entered the league like thunder. It was the first time you heard that the point guard is the head of the team, the main chess piece and tempo king. Bird and Magic had taken over, the center position was no longer the main keg on a team.

Magic comes along and all of sudden Kareem has a new bounce in his step. The game comes along easy for him for the first time in his career. He didn't even get slack for rebounds cause Magic was a good rebounder. Kareem had it easy and that's the way he preferred it. Magic would feature him when a newbie center came along. Magic had no trouble feeding the post. Kareem only had Wilkes on his side. The rest of the team wanted to be where Magic told them to go on the floor. Magic was the only guy on that team that could run a reward system. Magic would feature guys for their Birthdays or if their father was in the audience. Do you really think Kareem could feature Kurt Rambis in the offense. Riley didn't even know how to do that.

Pat Riley knew, like all who seen Kareem, that he could sulk and loose focus. He didn't want to rebound, he didn't like to hustle. You can't be serious and tell me that he was the example and lead. He had trouble motivating himself much less other people that he seemingly didn't like. Or better yet he didn't like people.

[G.O.A.T]

Showtime was Magic time.

I'm not talking about what was said... . Things were continuously said to pacify Kareem. Because of the kid gloves thing it seems like a dubious thing (the leadership issue) when you read about it but when you see it, it isn't a question. Kareen always was and is a distant guy. The guy threw a hissy fit when Magic went in the center position and turned out a game he couldn't equal. Who does that to a rookie?

Magic entered the league like thunder. It was the first time you heard that the point guard is the head of the team, the main chess piece and tempo king. Bird and Magic had taken over, the center position was no longer the main keg on a team.

Magic comes along and all of sudden Kareem has a new bounce in his step. The game comes along easy for him for the first time in his career. He didn't even get slack for rebounds cause Magic was a good rebounder. Kareem had it easy and that's the way he preferred it. Magic would feature him when a newbie center came along. Magic had no trouble feeding the post. Kareem only had Wilkes on his side. The rest of the team wanted to be where Magic told them to go on the floor. Magic was the only guy on that team that could run a reward system. Magic would feature guys for their Birthdays or if their father was in the audience. Do you really think Kareem could feature Kurt Rambis in the offense. Riley didn't even know how to do that.

Pat Riley knew, like all who seen Kareem, that he could sulk and loose focus. He didn't want to rebound, he didn't like to hustle. You can't be serious and tell me that he was the example and lead. He had trouble motivating himself much less other people that he seemingly didn't like. Or better yet he didn't like people.

We pretty much agree on Kareem, but there are some factors you're not considering.

1. The Laker veterans like Wilkes and Nixon favored Kareem and didn't listen to Magic very much, he was young and brash and they resented his relationship with Jerry Buss. Before '87 Kareem never fell in line either. Like you said, they still had to pacify him.

2. Magic had the yips in the '84 Finals and that sort of made him doubt himself a bit. He was on a mission in 1985 to redeem himself and it seemed like it was becoming his team. Then the Finals role around, Boston crushes LA in game one and it's Kareem who becomes vocal and assertive, moving to the front row and chiming in during film sessions instead of daydreaming in the back like usual. Then he backed it up on the court leading them to four wins in five games and the Finals MVP.

So it's more complicated than just "Magic was a better leader so he was the leader."

It was his team in terms of the direction of the offense and the image, but Kareem was still the top dog, or at least allowed to operate as such.

[Pointguard]

We pretty much agree on Kareem, but there are some factors you're not considering.

1. The Laker veterans like Wilkes and Nixon favored Kareem and didn't listen to Magic very much, he was young and brash and they resented his relationship with Jerry Buss. Before '87 Kareem never fell in line either. Like you said, they still had to pacify him.

2. Magic had the yips in the '84 Finals and that sort of made him doubt himself a bit. He was on a mission in 1985 to redeem himself and it seemed like it was becoming his team. Then the Finals role around, Boston crushes LA in game one and it's Kareem who becomes vocal and assertive, moving to the front row and chiming in during film sessions instead of daydreaming in the back like usual. Then he backed it up on the court leading them to four wins in five games and the Finals MVP.

So it's more complicated than just "Magic was a better leader so he was the leader."

It was his team in terms of the direction of the offense and the image, but Kareem was still the top dog, or at least allowed to operate as such.

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate... . LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.

Nonetheless he was a steady mule on a team of race horses. If he worked like Russell and Chamberlain he's GOAT. But he didn't... .

[HBKMGa]

KAJ's appearance on that shoe commercial with Karl Malone is underrated.

[G.O.A.T]

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate...

Rather or not it's right it happened. The Lakers couldn't have won those first three titles without both Kareem and Magic. Again, I want to emphasize I DO NOT disagree with your assessment of Kareem's character or effort relative to his potential, but just like the Kareem side that dismisses Magic being the clear cut choice of the organization and the media to lead the team and as it's best player, it wasn't that simple.

On the Celtics even the guys that didn't like Bird understood it was his team. Same goes for Isiah on the Pistons...try and picture someone doing what John Salley did as the Pistons were locking up the title and approaching Magic or Kareem and saying "You made this shit happen".

All I am asking is that you be completely fair. It was not a clear cut Magic show. Kareem was the number one option in the half court and in the clutch through 1986. The team didn't have one voice leading it and perhaps that's why the "only" won five titles in the decade.



LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

First...lol and rofl, I'd expect better from you. Surprised you didn't use the smiley.

How about reading up on the topic. Kareem turned the 1985 Finals around with his attitude. The guy understood the game and how to play it, he was just too lazy, unmotivated, apathetic to apply himself in that area with any consistency. But when he did for those Finals, the Lakers were as good as they ever were. Give credit where credit is do, don't belike one of those Kareem guys who says he was the real finals MVP in 1980 and it's not debatable.


When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.

That whole thing was ridiculous. You'll get no argument from me. Kareem also went to Magic after their careers were over and asked for advice on how to make himself more marketable and likable like Magic. Imagine the laugh Erv must have had to himself later.


Nonetheless he was a steady mule on a team of race horses. If he worked like Russell and Chamberlain he's GOAT. But he didn't... .

We have no disagreement yet again. Jabbar had the almost the physical prowess of Wilt, almost the intelligence of Russell and was more skilled and refined than either in basketball; peaked in a much weaker era and never even came close to winning a title without one of the two greatest point guards ever playing beside him. (Though to be fair, Oscar was not Oscar in 1974)

There has never been a player who had elite, skill, size, athleticism, intelligence and killer instinct. Kareem has four out of the five, which proves you can't teach the fifth.

[Niquesports]

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate... . LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.

:wtf:
.
Kareem was a unique personality. his game was so skilled and so dominant people expected him to have WIlt like numbers. However coming from the greatest coach to ever coach the game John Wooden Kareem had a better grasp of team basketball.Media and fans alike thought Kareem should have been putting up Wilt like numbers. IT wasnt so much that he could couldnt as much as them type of numbers just werent part of Kareem game. HE always played the secondary role which is one of the reasons his Lakers team pre- Magic fell short so many years. Sure he would get his points and was the best Center but people expected so much more from him.Also no one is talking about the dislike for Kareem after his conversion to Islam. Take that and his layed back personality the media never gave him the or maybe it was part his fault also he just didnt have the personality that say a Shaq has or the style of a Jordan.Anyone that doesnt think the media has an influence of the legeacy of players just put a post who's better Elvin Hayes or Kevin Mchale, Oscar Robinson or Jerry West, or Rick Barry or Charles Barkley. In all 3 cases any non bias person would take the first person over the second in each case however media influence has been kind to some and bad to others Kareem happens to be hurt by this.
This being said Kareem still being mentioned in the Top 5 of most really shows how great he really was.

[Pointguard]

Rather or not it's right it happened. The Lakers couldn't have won those first three titles without both Kareem and Magic. Again, I want to emphasize I DO NOT disagree with your assessment of Kareem's character or effort relative to his potential, but just like the Kareem side that dismisses Magic being the clear cut choice of the organization and the media to lead the team and as it's best player, it wasn't that simple.

We are in accord here.



All I am asking is that you be completely fair. It was not a clear cut Magic show. Kareem was the number one option in the half court and in the clutch through 1986. The team didn't have one voice leading it and perhaps that's why the "only" won five titles in the decade. Yes, I agree there was some discord there and it most definitely cost them a title or two. I know Magic was making a lot of adjustments on and off the court. I know Jabbar moved up closer to the screen and probably pointed out when he didn't get the ball despite the session being about Malone getting 25 bounds. :lol/



How about reading up on the topic. Kareem turned the 1985 Finals around with his attitude. The guy understood the game and how to play it, he was just too lazy, unmotivated, apathetic to apply himself in that area with any consistency. But when he did for those Finals, the Lakers were as good as they ever were. Give credit where credit is do, don't belike one of those Kareem guys who says he was the real finals MVP in 1980 and it's not debatable.

LOL, stop trying to imply I don't read or that I'm the KAJ of reading! There isn't that much to read on this topic. I agree with most of what you said above. Kareem was definitely better than Magic in a series or two and in large spurts during their time together - like you said in '85. It wasn't that simple to say who was the best or who might have been rallying the troops at all times.

But certain aspects are right there in front of us: Kareem before Magic had motivation issues, focus issues, people issues, leadership issues, hustle issues. Those things subside when Magic appears. The team around Kareem is motivated and for once all on the same page and very much buying into what Magic is leading. Kareem is featured and very much the center - but he isn't the brain, the motor, the gas or the steering wheel. He does make it a luxury car, he is the comfort and the seat (center) of the car tho. And still a heavyweight champion. He was dang good.


That whole thing was ridiculous. You'll get no argument from me. Kareem also went to Magic after their careers were over and asked for advice on how to make himself more marketable and likable like Magic. Imagine the laugh Erv must have had to himself later.
LOL, you ever work with someone who just seems oblivious to a reality only ten minutes before. "Psycho, didn't I just tell you that you aren't competing with me, I'm your boss!!!" :roll:

I think we agree on the matter. At times Kareem was the man. I think in general he was a changed man due to Magic's arrival. I think Magic was who he was the whole time. Flawed and not always up to leading but in general a leader. He always played his brand of ball which incorporated involving everybody.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was a unique personality. his game was so skilled and so dominant people expected him to have WIlt like numbers. However coming from the greatest coach to ever coach the game John Wooden Kareem had a better grasp of team basketball.Media and fans alike thought Kareem should have been putting up Wilt like numbers. IT wasnt so much that he could couldnt as much as them type of numbers just werent part of Kareem game. HE always played the secondary role which is one of the reasons his Lakers team pre- Magic fell short so many years. Sure he would get his points and was the best Center but people expected so much more from him.Also no one is talking about the dislike for Kareem after his conversion to Islam. Take that and his layed back personality the media never gave him the or maybe it was part his fault also he just didnt have the personality that say a Shaq has or the style of a Jordan.Anyone that doesnt think the media has an influence of the legeacy of players just put a post who's better Elvin Hayes or Kevin Mchale, Oscar Robinson or Jerry West, or Rick Barry or Charles Barkley. In all 3 cases any non bias person would take the first person over the second in each case however media influence has been kind to some and bad to others Kareem happens to be hurt by this.
This being said Kareem still being mentioned in the Top 5 of most really shows how great he really was.

Yes being top five isn't a slight by any means. And yeah he got some bad press just as Ali did for his conversion. I do think he had GOAT within his reach and him not being GOAT isn't related to bad press.

Like the current point guard situation where you have so many great points its just a matter of what aspect you are looking for to say who is best, I don't argue with people rotating three GOAT spots - all depending on what you are looking for. I have Jordan down because he was elite in nearly every level you can think of that measures greatness. I have Chamberlain down for Great feats and greatness speaks in the language he wrote. Russell down for winning at the highest level, killer instinct and defensive play. I think Magic and Kareem fill out the top five.

[shootingcomets]

top 5 player of all time... not underrated

[ThaRegul8r]

The notion that Russell is lucky is absurd.

The Celtics never even made it to the Finals before Russell, won 11 titles in his 13 years and finished in last place for two straight season after he retired.

Who was lucky? Russell? or the Celtics?

(The answer is the Celtics, just ask them)

Every single Celtic to a man who has been asked about it is on record as giving the same answer, yet people decades later who know absolutely nothing about the era nor has bothered to do any actual research say different than the people who were actually there and played both with and against him night in and night out for years. I wonder who's more reliable? :rolleyes:

[ThaRegul8r]

Some people may not like these choices or they may want to move them around to suit their taste but this is how i rank them.

1.Jordan
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Dunkan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson/Russell

Fail at not even being able to get his name right. I swear, I have no clue why so many people have problems with it. :confusedshrug:

[BlackJordan]

Hes not?