Barkley: Kobe a top 5 alltime player, better than Magic and Bird and Kareem

[sbw19]

Just mentioned it...

[L.Kizzle]

He's drinkin Bacardi Mix.

[Gundress]

Shit had me rolling....Kenny and Barkely argued :roll: :roll:

[DuMa]

he said his top 5 was

Jordan
Robertson
Russell
Wilt
Kobe

Charles officially lost his damn mind since he went on that diet.

[macpierce]

kobe is more like 6-8 ish right now

[thejumpa]

You could tell Chuck wanted to take it back but he had to save face.

Kenny: "You're saying he's better than Kareem? Get out of here!"

:oldlol:

[JM720]

Top 10, not 5 yet.

[elementally morale]

Just mentioned it...


So neither Bird not Magic or Kareem are in the top 5 according to Barkley? Because saying that:

(1) Kobe is top 5 (and no better)
(2) AND better than those three

would imply that Kobe is in the top 5 while Magic, Bird and Kareem are not. Was Charles being Charles?

[MayCeltics]

:hammerhead:

First of all, First of all, First of all, First of all, First of all, I'm a dumbass

[elementally morale]

he said his top 5 was

Jordan
Robertson
Russell
Wilt
Kobe




:facepalm

[sbw19]

Now relegated to #6. Something ain't right with Charles.

[L.Kizzle]

BREAKING NEWS Kobe is now 6 Lew Alcindor is 5.

[DuMa]

Kenny shamed him bad.

[MrJohnWall]

Finally Barkeley is coming to his senses.

He's not better then Kareem but he is much better then Oscar & Russell

[Kurosawa0]

If the Lakers win it again this season I'll move him ahead of Bird. I'd still have him behind MJ, Russell, Kareem, Magic and Wilt though. Wilt's definitely on shaky ground though.

[thejumpa]

Funny thing is this thread will get a shitload of replies and probably go 20 pages. At the end of the day, it's an opinion and Chuck is entitled to his.

Besides, when it's all said and done, he's gonna be top 5 anyway. Or atleast really close. Especially if he keeps winning or just keeps playing until his body falls apart. That's real talk....

Not now though Chuck....too soon. He flat out disrespected Larry,Magic,Duncan,Shaq....way too soon.

[L.Kizzle]

Kobe will be number 8 by the end of the show.

[IGOTGAME]

What disrespect to Kareem....smh

[Timmy D for MVP]

Kobe will be number 8 by the end of the show.

I think this is fair but not a guaranteed thing.

Also: Charles is liable to say stupid shit.

[sbw19]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9303/123yjv.jpg

:roll:

[Timmy D for MVP]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9303/123yjv.jpg

:roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Damn that was fast.

[Premeditated]

wow, so it took him winning another finals mvp to realize it?

because just year after Lakers beat Magic in the finals, he said Kobe wasn't even top 10.And it was Reggie and Kenny that beg to differ.

glad he came to his senses.

lets be honest, when it's all said and done and you all stop being so nostalgic, you will all realize that Kobe, MJ and Lebron are the greatest to ever touch a basketball.

[MayCeltics]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9303/123yjv.jpg

:roll:


:lol Charles underrating Halle Berry. She's too fine not to be in top5

[Micku]

he said his top 5 was

Jordan
Robertson
Russell
Wilt
Kobe

Charles officially lost his damn mind since he went on that diet.

...Oscar or David?

[MrJohnWall]

Yeah In 09 Barkely had KObe outside looking in of top 10

Now he has him top 5 :oldlol:

At least he put down all that hate juice

[Premeditated]

Wilt Chamberlain is extremely overrated btw.

[catch24]

Not quite. Top 10 for sure, on his way to a 5-7 all-time ranking.

[elementally morale]

...Oscar or David?

David Robinson

[Kurosawa0]

Wilt Chamberlain is extremely overrated btw.

He's just the ultimate stat king. He holds more records than anyone. Sure, you can argue about the era, but he was far and away the best individual talent of his era.

[MrJohnWall]

Wilt Chamberlain is extremely overrated btw.
At least he dominated a weak era.

Bill Russel is by far the most overrated player of all time

[inclinerator]

kobe will never be better then KAREEM!

[Al Thornton]

maine lobstermen

[MayCeltics]

maine lobstermen

:roll:

Texas Hold'em

[AirJordan&Magic]

kobe will never be better then KAREEM!

:applause:

[Kurosawa0]

Bill Russel is by far the most overrated player of all time

I'm pretty sure he's the most winning athlete ever.

[Premeditated]

At least he dominated a weak era.

Bill Russel is by far the most overrated player of all time
this too. in fact I'll put Wilt ahead of Russell.

[MrJohnWall]

I'm pretty sure he's the most winning athlete ever.
and if Horry stayed around long enough he could have been too.

Any big man that shoots 40 percent from the field is not a all time great PERIOD!
Especially in that weak ass era

[Kurosawa0]

and if Horry stayed around long enough he could have been too.

Any big man that shoots 40 percent from the field is not a all time great PERIOD!
Especially in that weak ass era

Horry never had remotely the same impact on any team as Russell did on the Celtics. The guy was the best player on 11 championship teams. It's not like Boston just rolled everyone either. They won several games sevens to win those titles.

[ginobli2311]

and if Horry stayed around long enough he could have been too.

Any big man that shoots 40 percent from the field is not a all time great PERIOD!
Especially in that weak ass era

yep. lets just ignore defense/rebounding/leadership. LOL.

Russell is a top 5 player of all time by any standard or measure.

and by the way people....defense/rebounding is more important than offense. its really not even close when it comes to the playoffs.

[Timmy D for MVP]

yep. lets just ignore defense/rebounding/leadership. LOL.

Russell is a top 5 player of all time by any standard or measure.

and by the way people....defense/rebounding is more important than offense. its really not even close when it comes to the playoffs.

I agree. I mentioned a looooong time ago that for me rebounding is the biggest thing in the game of basketball. The key.

And Russell is one of the best. And possibly the best defensive player? Idk I wasn't around to watch him and stats weren't kept on stuff like that. But I'd imagine he'd put the block leaders now to shame.

[MrJohnWall]

yep. lets just ignore defense/rebounding/leadership. LOL.

Russell is a top 5 player of all time by any standard or measure.

and by the way people....defense/rebounding is more important than offense. its really not even close when it comes to the playoffs.

Lol @ leadership

So you would take Dikembe over Carmelo or Durant?
Good offense beats good defense anyday. This isnt football.

You can play unbelievable defense if your not scoring your not winning

Russel is not a top 10 player

[ginobli2311]

I agree. I mentioned a looooong time ago that for me rebounding is the biggest thing in the game of basketball. The key.

And Russell is one of the best. And possibly the best defensive player? Idk I wasn't around to watch him and stats weren't kept on stuff like that. But I'd imagine he'd put the block leaders now to shame.

i don't know who the BEST defender of all time is. i'd put russell/jordan/kareem/duncan/kg/pippen/hakeem/wilt...i'm sure i'm missing a bunch, but those guys are all in the ultra elite defender class.

just look at kg. he's somewhat of a modern russell. most people would tell you that kg is not as good as a guy like bosh or bogut as bigs....but people don't want to talk about kg's impact on the defensive end. he's still an amazing defender...still the most versatile defender in the league (maybe lebron now)...but the point is that his value is actually much higher for winning than we all think.

defense and rebounding wins championships. russell was arguably the best combination of that of all time. i understand career/resume is different, but if we are talking about impact and level of play. kobe has no case over:

jordan
russell
magic
kareem
wilt
duncan
shaq
bird
hakeem

i have kobe next in line at number ten closely followed by guys like oscar/moses

just think of it his way. if you had to pick one of the above players for the 12 best years of their careers....are you really going to pick kobe over any of those 9 guys to start your team? i just don't see any evidence as to why. kobe needs so much more help than a tim duncan to win titles. kobe has been blessed by fantastic circumstances and teams for all but 3 years of his career. the reason this is such a big deal is simply because kobe's level of play has not been up to the standards of the truly elite class of nba players of all time.

nobody would be harping on kobe's team strength if he played better. but when you look back and see that he shoots 40% or worse in the nba finals in over half his games....or that he's never really over-achieved once in his career. it just becomes the obvious talking point. thats why i said game 7 of the finals last year actually hurt kobe's legacy. people laugh, but wetting the bed in arguably your biggest game of your career is just no something that can be overlooked when you are being compared to the top 9 players of all time. kobe's team was good enough to overcome his horrendous play in that game. so i dont know how that is a positive for kobe's legacy. it just doesn't make sense.

[ginobli2311]

Lol @ leadership

So you would take Dikembe over Carmelo or Durant?
Good offense beats good defense anyday. This isnt football.

You can play unbelievable defense if your not scoring your not winning

Russel is not a top 10 player

comparing dikembe to russell is laughable.

a better comparison would be a vastly improved dwight howard if you wanted to be current...and yes i'd take that over carmelo and durant...considering i think howard is more valuable than both of those players right now.

how about david robinson dude. robinson is just a better all around version of howard. he was equal to howard on the glass and on defense and he was a much better offensive player. give me robinson over carmelo or durant all day.

and bill russell has something that robinson didn't. intangibles/leadership...call it what you want. he was a winner. he did what he needed to do to win. if you control the paint and the glass. its almost impossible to lose if you have a good team around you.

you clearly don't understand the game or what wins. people will LOL at you all day for your comments.

LOL

[Rojogaqu11]

Although Kobe has some flaws in his approach to the game, attitude, and constancy of production, overall, skill-wise he is as good as any player that has ever played. This doesn't mean that he is as good an athlete as Jordan, better shooter than Bird, or better court vision than Magic, it only means that he's been such a skilled player in all aspects of basketball, that when looking at his accomplishments and feats throughout his extensive career, there's a general agreement that he's reached a level that only a few select players have matched or surpassed.

Different games, different eras. We could argue statistics and what they mean now, what they meant at the time, but only looking at the big picture we can see that he's a player that has reached that level only the best of the best try to reach. His career is far from over, so let's no be surprised if the analysts and experts are now taking a bet on what most surely will be a valid discussion in the future, when criticism evolves into appreciation.

[MrJohnWall]

comparing dikembe to russell is laughable.

a better comparison would be a vastly improved dwight howard if you wanted to be current...and yes i'd take that over carmelo and durant...considering i think howard is more valuable than both of those players right now.

how about david robinson dude. robinson is just a better all around version of howard. he was equal to howard on the glass and on defense and he was a much better offensive player. give me robinson over carmelo or durant all day.

and bill russell has something that robinson didn't. intangibles/leadership...call it what you want. he was a winner. he did what he needed to do to win. if you control the paint and the glass. its almost impossible to lose if you have a good team around you.

you clearly don't understand the game or what wins. people will LOL at you all day for your comments.

LOL


Where did i compare Russel to dikembe?

Dikembe is all time great defender and a great rebounder with NO offensive skills.
Durant & Carmelo are offensive greats that cant play a lick of defense.

But who would take Dikembe over these guys

Offense> Defense

and thats just common sense

and fact is russel was a all time great defender who cant play a lick of offense

He makes Howard look like Hakeem in the post

[ginobli2311]

Where did i compare Russel to dikembe?

Dikembe is all time great defender and a great rebounder with NO offensive skills.
Durant & Carmelo are offensive greats that cant play a lick of defense.

But who would take Dikembe over these guys

Offense> Defense

and thats just common sense

and fact is russel was a all time great defender who cant play a lick of offense

He makes Howard look like Hakeem in the post

LOL. so you would take bosh over garnett?

LOL

dirk over KG in their primes. offense is more important according to you. monta ellis over gerald wallace? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

sadly i think most GM's in the NBA think like morons like you. no wonder only 4 teams at most every year even have a chance to win a title. the basketball world simply does not know what wins titles. you take your durant/carmelo offensive wonders and i'll take my kg's and pippen's and payton's. and my guys will win in the playoffs. you guys like nash/melo/durant will be bouncing out early every year.

nash is a perfect example of this. one of the truly great offensive players ever. but also one of the worst defensive players ever. dude has never even been to the nba finals and has played with loads of talent. funny how those defensive minded spurs beat them pretty much every year.

damn.....

[Hagbard]

sadly i think most GM's in the NBA think like morons like you. no wonder only 4 teams at most every year even have a chance to win a title. the basketball world simply does not know what wins titles. you take your durant/carmelo offensive wonders and i'll take my kg's and pippen's and payton's. and my guys will win in the playoffs. you guys like nash/melo/durant will be bouncing out early every year.


You're oversimplifying the job of the GM. Winning titles is only job #2. Making money for the owner is job #1.

If I had to start from scratch, and my primary goal was to build a team that I thought could win titles, would I take Pippen over Durant? Hell yeah.

If I had to start *my own* team from scratch, then, would I take Pippen or Durant? Durant. Every time. Guy is going to sell WAY more jerseys than Pippen. Going to put WAY more asses into seats. Going to move WAY more concessions at halftime. Get on TV WAY more often.

The face of your franchise needs to be a star for your team to go supernova in the global economy. And that can't happen if he's Bill Russell.

Weren't a whole lot of "I wanna be like Ben Wallace" commercials out there during the Pistons good run.

Note that I'm not arguing against your point that this nitwit posting about Bill Russell being overrated is out of his gourd. Clearly you're right. I think Russell's a top 3 player all-time. But I don't think you're right in extending that criticism to NBA GM's, for the most part. They've got to think about more than one angle at a time.

[ginobli2311]

You're oversimplifying the job of the GM. Winning titles is only job #2. Making money for the owner is job #1.

If I had to start from scratch, and my primary goal was to build a team that I thought could win titles, would I take Pippen over Durant? Hell yeah.

If I had to start *my own* team from scratch, then, would I take Pippen or Durant? Durant. Every time. Guy is going to sell WAY more jerseys than Pippen. Going to put WAY more asses into seats. Going to move WAY more concessions at halftime. Get on TV WAY more often.

The face of your franchise needs to be a star for your team to go supernova in the global economy. And that can't happen if he's Bill Russell.

Weren't a whole lot of "I wanna be like Ben Wallace" commercials out there during the Pistons good run.

Note that I'm not arguing against your point that this nitwit posting about Bill Russell being overrated is out of his gourd. Clearly you're right. I think Russell's a top 3 player all-time. But I don't think you're right in extending that criticism to NBA GM's, for the most part. They've got to think about more than one angle at a time.

i totally agree with all of that. i'm talking about how these GM's build teams around their star players. I fully understand you have to fill the seats, but at the same time....winning fills seats better than anything.

to add to your points. overpaying for one dimensional over-rated players like rashard lewis and joe johnson actually hurt the bottom line of your franchise. you paid way too much for a player that doesn't really fill the seats to begin with and you have no chance at winning a title with that player as your number 1 guy.

just look at how poorly the mavericks built around dirk over the last decade. it wasn't until this year that the mavs finally gave dirk what he needed on the front line. the mavs have needed a chandler or haywood type player for over a decade. they also needed defensive minded players that bring some toughness as well. what they did not need was guys like howard/jamison/terry/lafrentz/bradley...etc. i could go on forever. the mavs tried to win with offense. it never works......ever. defense and rebounding wins you titles. obviously you need a star player almost every time....but its how you build around that guy that fills the seats. and almost all GM's fail miserably at this. i don't know why....but they do.

[JJ81]

Without a doubt a top 5 player.

[macpierce]

if kobe wins one more, in my book he is top 5/6, right now he is around 9

[KenneBell]

If Kobe wins this year his stock in the all-time rankings is going to go way up.

It's getting hard to argue with what he's accomplished so far.

[r15mohd]

turble, just turble!!! don’t know what CB4 is thinking

as good as KB is… he not even in the top 10 of greatest players.


for me, there are some significant reasons why I could not rank him above the other greats like Bird, Pistol, Russel, MJ, Kareem, Magic and so on…


firstly, KB is not a team player IMO. he’s called out his teammates and even drove the best player on his team out of LA (Shaq). he wanted to be the first option, and he would of got that but he became extremely selfish in wanting it right then and there.

that plagued him, because when Shaq left…KB could not lead his team to the playoffs that year. and the couple years after that, he could not get out of the 1st round. he had descent role players in Butler and Odom but could not take lead and steer them to success.

another reason is when he feels ready, he makes his teammates invisible. he forces up ridiculous shots at times, as we most recently saw last week against PHX where they could have had a chance to win if KB didn’t put up a garbage 30+ footer. his decision making is no where on par with any of the greats

the guys considered the greatest knew how to lead their team and make their teammates that much better. KB has yet to show me this aspect of his game consistently to be amongst the other greats. MJ, Magic, Bird, etc did this for years upon years and that’s why they are who they are…GREATS!

KB is a good player…he’s the best right now, but is he in the top 10-15? I wouldn’t vote for him to be ranked so high. he has a few years to build still, maybe another championship will help but I’m not won over with him being rated this highly.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:lol :lol :lol first he calls Michael Beasley Tito Jackson and now he is saying Kobe is better than Bird, Kareem and Magic GTFO

[brownmamba00]

I am a Kobe fan but Kobe's got nothing on Kareem and Magic

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

I am a Kobe fan but Kobe's got nothing on Kareem and Magic

Bird too

[Rekindled]

Jordan > Barkley

Jordan: Kobe is a top 10 SG, I will take Jordan's word over Barkley's

[mashbelly]

Jordan: Kobe is a top 10 SG, I will take Jordan's word over Barkley's

Kobe > LeBron (right now)

-MJ

:wtf:

[Niquesports]

Lol @ leadership

So you would take Dikembe over Carmelo or Durant?
Good offense beats good defense anyday. This isnt football.

You can play unbelievable defense if your not scoring your not winning

Russel is not a top 10 player

Just like there is an age limit to enter the NBA there should be a age limit to post on ISH. This lil kid says "if your not scoring your not winning" YEt Russell has won 11 titles as his team's leader and most vaulable player.But seeing how he picks Mello and Durant "I love them both " but neither has lead a team anywhere . ESPN has killed all knopwledge of basketball no wonder this is such a weak era.

[chazzy]

[QUOTE=r15mohd]
for me, there are some significant reasons why I could not rank him above the other greats like Bird, Pistol, Russel, MJ, Kareem, Magic and so on

[Mor'Fiyah]

LOL. so you would take bosh over garnett?

LOL

dirk over KG in their primes. offense is more important according to you. monta ellis over gerald wallace? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

sadly i think most GM's in the NBA think like morons like you. no wonder only 4 teams at most every year even have a chance to win a title. the basketball world simply does not know what wins titles. you take your durant/carmelo offensive wonders and i'll take my kg's and pippen's and payton's. and my guys will win in the playoffs. you guys like nash/melo/durant will be bouncing out early every year.

nash is a perfect example of this. one of the truly great offensive players ever. but also one of the worst defensive players ever. dude has never even been to the nba finals and has played with loads of talent. funny how those defensive minded spurs beat them pretty much every year.

damn.....

Your analogies are a tad bit unfair and disingenuous. I think the poster is trying to say that Bill Russell was a limited, albeit GREAT, player and as such is a prime target for a more recognized all around great to over take. I tend to agree.

[necya]

the guy is totally overrated, damn he is the 3rd best player of his decade, decade who is the worst ever and is top 8 according to ISH scientist...
he never had a good shot selection in 14 years of play, has shot the ball better than his own team only 3 yimes in his career. he has been the luckiest player ever and has never shined as a GOAT in a final. in fact, 95% of his 50pts game are against crappy teams.

he is not in my top 20.

[chazzy]

he is not in my top 20.
Let's see it http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[KenneBell]

he is not in my top 20.
What a horrible poster. :roll:

[KenneBell]

If Kobe wins this year his stock in the all-time rankings is going to go way up.

It's getting hard to argue with what he's accomplished so far.
I got neg repped twice for this. :roll:

B!tch ass muthaf*ckas.

[macpierce]

6 chips, 3 Finals MVP, maybe another regular season MVP if possible, top 5 is up for discussion

[All Net]

I think Kobe will be considered top 5 when his career is done, wether people think he is or not on here he will likely be considered up there with a few more titles and good numbers which is very possible. Rep means alot.

[indiefan24]

Let's see it http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

don't count on it :oldlol:

[TryToBeUnbias]

the guy is totally overrated, damn he is the 3rd best player of his decade, decade who is the worst ever and is top 8 according to ISH scientist...
he never had a good shot selection in 14 years of play, has shot the ball better than his own team only 3 yimes in his career. he has been the luckiest player ever and has never shined as a GOAT in a final. in fact, 95% of his 50pts game are against crappy teams.

he is not in my top 20.

Im actually interested in your top 20

and that "worst decade" produced 3 top 10 players

[JDKMagic]

Peak? In no particular order, better than Kobe...

O'Neal
Olajuwon
Jordan
Duncan
Garnett
Robinson
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Russell
James
Bird
Johnson
Barkley
Pippen
Iverson
Stockton
Malone

There's probably more I can't think of...

Career? In no particular order, for sure better than Kobe...

O'Neal
Jordan
Duncan
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Olajuwon
Russell
Johnson

Guys, there's more to the game of basketball than just putting up stats and winning titles with massive amounts of talent on your teams which is all he's done.

Perfect example? There are two kids that I play with on a semi regular basis on the playground that have way more physical talent and ability than anyone else out there including myself. They've got good jumpers, they're extremely quick with the ball to the point that few can stop them from driving, and they leap out of the gym. However, they ballhog. They ballhog to the point that it hinders the rest of the team and thus their overall personal game. They either refuse to allow others to participate or they simply are unable to recognize when to make the correct pass, when to double team, and when to recognize mismatches and capitalize on them.

Every single time I play with FAR less physically talented players than them that actually KNOW the game, my teams win quite easily.

This is exactly what Kobe has been guilty of for nearly his entire career. He's definitely become a better teammate with age, but even to this day he still needs to grow up and recognize how to make better basketball plays than going 1 on 1 and trying to be the hero.

As much shit as he gets and as much as I want to see the Heat fail, a guy like LeBron James is a better offensive player simply because he knows how to make correct basketball plays and passes. He's not as good of a 1 on 1 player, but that's not what the **** this game is about. It's about 5 on 5. It's also the same reason Russell is UNDERrated. People focus too much on 1 on 1 players.

[catch24]

the guy is totally overrated, damn he is the 3rd best player of his decade, decade who is the worst ever and is top 8 according to ISH scientist...
he never had a good shot selection in 14 years of play, has shot the ball better than his own team only 3 yimes in his career. he has been the luckiest player ever and has never shined as a GOAT in a final. in fact, 95% of his 50pts game are against crappy teams.

he is not in my top 20.

I enjoy your DVD's and uploads that you share with the basketball community, but this is just flat out dumb.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Peak? In no particular order, better than Kobe...

O'Neal
Olajuwon
Jordan
Duncan
Garnett
Robinson
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Russell
James
Bird
Johnson
Barkley
Pippen
Iverson
Stockton
Malone

There's probably more I can't think of...

Career? In no particular order, for sure better than Kobe...

O'Neal
Jordan
Duncan
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Olajuwon
Russell
Johnson

Guys, there's more to the game of basketball than just putting up stats and winning titles with massive amounts of talent on your teams which is all he's done.

Perfect example? There are two kids that I play with on a semi regular basis on the playground that have way more physical talent and ability than anyone else out there including myself. They've got good jumpers, they're extremely quick with the ball to the point that few can stop them from driving, and they leap out of the gym. However, they ballhog. They ballhog to the point that it hinders the rest of the team and thus their overall personal game. They either refuse to allow others to participate or they simply are unable to recognize when to make the correct pass, when to double team, and when to recognize mismatches and capitalize on them.

Every single time I play with FAR less physically talented players than them that actually KNOW the game, my teams win quite easily.

This is exactly what Kobe has been guilty of for nearly his entire career. He's definitely become a better teammate with age, but even to this day he still needs to grow up and recognize how to make better basketball plays than going 1 on 1 and trying to be the hero.

As much shit as he gets and as much as I want to see the Heat fail, a guy like LeBron James is a better offensive player simply because he knows how to make correct basketball plays and passes. He's not as good of a 1 on 1 player, but that's not what the **** this game is about. It's about 5 on 5. It's also the same reason Russell is UNDERrated. People focus too much on 1 on 1 players.

not sure if you were the person who got raped by Kobe:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ashbelly]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9303/123yjv.jpg

:roll:



:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[tpols]

Im actually interested in your top 20

and that "worst decade" produced 3 top 10 players
The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.:oldlol:

[KenneBell]

The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.:oldlol:
*Waits for someone to say that Jordan dominated so much that no one else could become a top 10 player*

[kingkong]

lol @ the idea of a guy with 5 rings, 7 finals apps, mvp, 2fmv, gold medal, 12th most points scored and 4th most points scored in the playoffs not being in the top 10...

i wonder what the haters will be saying when he's #3 on all time scoring and #1 on playoff scoring...

[necya]

Im actually interested in your top 20

and that "worst decade" produced 3 top 10 players

is it your opinion or ish's ?? cause the one who think that shaq is better than Olajuwon has already wrong. even a 24yo shaq wasn't able to dominate 34yo Olajuwon or Barkley. people just wanna remember that shaq three-peat when nba was weak and have lost (retired or career end) all his best players.
i'm not obsessed by those stupid ranking. so i don't feel to make one now. but fell free to contest my previous post with something, kobe is overrated.

[tpols]

is it your opinion or ish's ?? cause the one who think that shaq is better than Olajuwon has already wrong. even a 24yo shaq wasn't able to dominate 34yo Olajuwon or Barkley. people just wanna remember that shaq three-peat when nba was weak and have lost (retired or career end) all his best players.
i'm not obsessed by those stupid ranking. so i don't feel to make one now. but fell free to contest my previous post with something, kobe is overrated.
contest what? you have no evidence.:oldlol:

So when you make a completely outrageous one sentence claim you expect us to contest it? Nah we'll just label you a retard instead and save the time. :roll:

[scm5]

Perfect example? There are two kids that I play with on a semi regular basis on the playground that have way more physical talent and ability than anyone else out there including myself. They've got good jumpers, they're extremely quick with the ball to the point that few can stop them from driving, and they leap out of the gym. However, they ballhog. They ballhog to the point that it hinders the rest of the team and thus their overall personal game. They either refuse to allow others to participate or they simply are unable to recognize when to make the correct pass, when to double team, and when to recognize mismatches and capitalize on them.

Every single time I play with FAR less physically talented players than them that actually KNOW the game, my teams win quite easily.

This is exactly what Kobe has been guilty of for nearly his entire career. He's definitely become a better teammate with age, but even to this day he still needs to grow up and recognize how to make better basketball plays than going 1 on 1 and trying to be the hero.


Perfect example except for the little oversight that Kobe has won more than any other current player in the league and more than most legends.

I'm pretty sure Kobe could teach you a thing or two about winning. I'm also sure that Kobe takes less FGA per game than Jordan did.

For his career, Kobe has taken 19.3FGA/gm for 25.3ppg. Larry Bird? 19.3FGA/gm for 24.3ppg. MJ 22.9FGA/gm for 30.1 ppg.

So for his career, Kobe takes about as many FGA/gm as Bird, but scores more. Kobe also takes almost 4 fewer FGA/gm than MJ did, yet is considered a ball hog.

To put things into perspective, we shall do a little math.

25.3/19.3 = 1.311 points per FGA.

30.1/22.9= 1.314 points per FGA.

Roughly translated, if Kobe took 22.9 FGA/gm he would average 30.01ppg compared to Jordan's 30.1.

If Jordan took Kobe's FGA/gm he would average 25.37ppg compared to Kobe's 25.3 ppg.

Are you calling out Jordan as well with your statement? Because Jordan's efficiency per FGA isn't much higher than Kobe's and he hogs the ball more than Kobe does.

Are you saying that the GREATEST BASKETBALL PLAYER OF ALL TIME who won 6 Rings during his career made bad basketball decisions?

[necya]

contest what? you have no evidence.:oldlol:

So when you make a completely outrageous one sentence claim you expect us to contest it? Nah we'll just label you a retard instead and save the time. :roll:

you are 19yo, you never have seen an entire decade of basketball. you fdream about being kobe's wife... maybe you thought i would take into account your "opinion"? really?

[necya]

To put things into perspective, we shall do a little math.

25.3/19.3 = 1.311 points per FGA.

30.1/22.9= 1.314 points per FGA.

Roughly translated, if Kobe took 22.9 FGA/gm he would average 30.01ppg compared to Jordan's 30.1.

If Jordan took Kobe's FGA/gm he would average 25.37ppg compared to Kobe's 25.3 ppg.

are you aware of the shit you have done?
you thought you were good at maths maybe?

[scm5]

are you aware of the shit you have done?
you thought you were good at maths maybe?

omfg, you're right, I just compared MJ to Kobe and made their scoring look similar in efficiency.

roughly the equivalent of dividing by ZERO!!!

rookie mistake :no:

[necya]

omfg, you're right, I just compared MJ to Kobe and made their scoring look similar in efficiency.

roughly the equivalent of dividing by ZERO!!!

rookie mistake :no:

haha in fact, you were serious !! i prefer letting you in your ignorance, it suits to you very well...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anyone who thinks that Kobe's efficiency is similar to Jordan's is smoking some good sh*t. Here are a few posts I made a while back illustrating the difference. Note that this talks about 2-point FG% because someone asserted that if Kobe didn't shoot as many 3's, he'd be comparable to MJ in terms of FG%. This is nonsense.


Wanted to post this in the other thread that just got deleted ("Phil Jackson says Kobe > MJ"), in response to the thread started ("Blader", I think his name was), who asserted that, when looking at 2-point FG% between Kobe and Jordan, the comparison is very close (he posted 48% 2FG% for Kobe vs 51% for MJ). This data took me quite a while to calculate just now, so I didn't want it to go to waste:


This is a stupid argument since Jordan was doing so on higher ppg volume (by about 5-6 ppg, which is not trivial with players at this level; data below). That means he was generating significantly more good 2-point opportunities.

Lastly, your numbers for Jordan aren't accurate, or at least not complete. Here are accurate numbers:

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's.


Actually, I'll do the calcs again, since I still have the league averages in Notepad:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)


The above data also supports my contention that 1990 or 1991 MJ was his absolute peak in terms of his dominance as a player (~55% FG on 2's each year @ 32.6 ppg), especially when you combine it with his defensive energy and ability during those seasons/postseasons.


Yeah, MJ shot 55.3% in 1989 on 2's and 54.6% on 2's in 1988. Here's year by year in terms of 2FG% for Jordan:

1988: 54.6% (+5.6% above league average)
1989: 55.3% (+6.3%)
1990: 54.8% (+6.0%)
1991: 55.1% (+6.3%)
1992: 53.3% (+4.7%)
1993: 51.4% (+2.5%)

Again, Kobe has never shot more than 1.2% above league average on 2-point FGA's, and aside from that one season at +1.2%, never even broke 1% above league average in any season. Not even comparable.

Their ppg/TS% from age 21-30 is 32.5 pts/59.2% for Jordan versus 28.0 pts/55.8% TS for Kobe. Again, not even close, neither in terms of efficiency or volume (and when you combine a 3.4% TS difference with a 4.5 ppg difference, that adds up to a VERY significant difference).

[JustinJDW]

Haha, no. :oldlol:

[thejumpa]

I swear some of you stat geeks never even watch games. It's all about stats, stats, stats....go outside and shoot some ****ing jumpers or something.

[Mor'Fiyah]

The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.:oldlol:

The nostalgic old-heads with generation gap syndrome need to learn to appreciate the here and now. We are in an era of Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Nash, Durant, Paul... the talent in the NBA over the last 10-15 years has been nothing short of amazing.

[r15mohd]

[QUOTE=chazzy]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by r15mohd
for me, there are some significant reasons why I could not rank him above the other greats like Bird, Pistol, Russel, MJ, Kareem, Magic and so on

[Mor'Fiyah]

Anyone who thinks that Kobe's efficiency is similar to Jordan's is smoking some good sh*t. Here are a few posts I made a while back illustrating the difference. Note that this talks about 2-point FG% because someone asserted that if Kobe didn't shoot as many 3's, he'd be comparable to MJ in terms of FG%. This is nonsense.







Again, Kobe has never shot more than 1.2% above league average on 2-point FGA's, and aside from that one season at +1.2%, never even broke 1% above league average in any season. Not even comparable.

Their ppg/TS% from age 21-30 is 32.5 pts/59.2% for Jordan versus 28.0 pts/55.8% TS for Kobe. Again, not even close, neither in terms of efficiency or volume (and when you combine a 3.4% TS difference with a 4.5 ppg difference, that adds up to a VERY significant difference).

Your argument only attests to MJs superior efficiency as a midrange to the rim player. In the same manner we could ONLY compare 3 point% with volume and come to the conclusion that Kobe was similarly more efficient from beyond the arc. In addition you seem to put a lot of stock into how much better Jordan was than his peers (the league average) when all that tells us is that the average player in the league has gotten better both offensively AND defensively than they were 10+ years ago.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.

Jordan's "era" significantly overlapped with Magic and Bird's, as well as Shaq's (each by 6-8 seasons). Plus you had Hakeem. So that's actually 5 top 10 players including MJ.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In the same manner we could ONLY compare 3 point% with volume and come to the conclusion that Kobe was similarly more efficient from beyond the arc.

And? Who would argue that?


In addition you seem to put a lot of stock into how much better Jordan was than his peers (the league average) when all that tells us is that the average player in the league has gotten better both offensively AND defensively than they were 10+ years ago.

Not really, no. Guys like Lebron and Wade put up numbers similar to those I posted for Jordan (in terms of 2FG% relative to league average), and neither are as good as Jordan. What stans like yourself fail to realize is that Jordan was simply a more dominant and better player than Kobe. Deal with it.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I swear some of you stat geeks never even watch games. It's all about stats, stats, stats....go outside and shoot some ****ing jumpers or something.

Even if you look at stats at least take an objective look at them. One should note that comparing stats across eras doesn't work very well.

[Mor'Fiyah]

And? Who would argue that?



Not really, no. Guys like Lebron and Wade put up numbers similar to those I posted for Jordan (in terms of 2FG% relative to league average), and neither are as good as Jordan. What stans like yourself fail to realize is that Jordan was simply a more dominant and better player than Kobe. Deal with it.

Uh no. Guys like Lebron and Wade are much better than league average. And like Jordan they excel at high percentage shots at the rim with decent perimeter games. Does it make them efficient? Sure. But not anymore efficient than players that are decent at getting to the rim and excel at the perimeter mid-range game. It should be noted that your 2PFG% includes dunks and layups.

[Svendiggity]

Anyone who thinks that Kobe's efficiency is similar to Jordan's is smoking some good sh*t. Here are a few posts I made a while back illustrating the difference. Note that this talks about 2-point FG% because someone asserted that if Kobe didn't shoot as many 3's, he'd be comparable to MJ in terms of FG%. This is nonsense.

Again, Kobe has never shot more than 1.2% above league average on 2-point FGA's, and aside from that one season at +1.2%, never even broke 1% above league average in any season. Not even comparable.

Their ppg/TS% from age 21-30 is 32.5 pts/59.2% for Jordan versus 28.0 pts/55.8% TS for Kobe. Again, not even close, neither in terms of efficiency or volume (and when you combine a 3.4% TS difference with a 4.5 ppg difference, that adds up to a VERY significant difference).

Stats help your argument in that case. But what about in a scenario where they don't help your case? For example: Adrian Dantley was putting up 30 a game on 63 TS% from 81-86. Prove to me that Jordan was more efficient than Adrian Dantley in their prime years. Now you can't use stats, so you must use logic. Now you probably feel like a Kobe fan trying to explain to a stat geek why he is better than "player x."

Stats prove nothing, really. MJ is a better player than Kobe, but not because of stats.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Not really, no. Guys like Lebron and Wade put up numbers similar to those I posted for Jordan (in terms of 2FG% relative to league average), and neither are as good as Jordan.

And please feel free to show how Lebron and Wade are any closer in comparison to Jordan than Kobe is using their career stats. I am a Kobe FAN. Not a stan. I believe Jordan to be the better player career-wise. But Kobe is closing the gap and the true difference between the two is the eras they played in. Jordan was so much better than his peers and Kobe's peers so much better than Jordan's that statistical and perceptual difference between the two is magnified in much the same way as Pele is viewed as a God and Messi not so much.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Stats help your argument in that case. But what about in a scenario where they don't help your case? For example: Adrian Dantley was putting up 30 a game on 63 TS% from 81-86. Prove to me that Jordan was more efficient than Adrian Dantley in their prime years. Now you can't use stats, so you must use logic. Now you probably feel like a Kobe fan trying to explain to a stat geek why he is better than "player x."

Stats prove nothing, really. MJ is a better player than Kobe, but not because of stats.

And remember, his argument is not merely that Jordan was better than Kobe. His argument is that Jordan was MUCH better.

[thejumpa]

Even if you look at stats at least take an objective look at them. One should note that comparing stats across eras doesn't work very well.

Totally agree. It's not so much that people keep referring to stats only, it's that they compare stats from different eras like it's nothing. To top it off, they overload on TS% and PER and all that shit and try to pass it on as fact.

[ginobli2311]

And please feel free to show how Lebron and Wade are any closer in comparison to Jordan than Kobe is using their career stats. I am a Kobe FAN. Not a stan. I believe Jordan to be the better player career-wise. But Kobe is closing the gap and the true difference between the two is the eras they played in. Jordan was so much better than his peers and Kobe's peers so much better than Jordan's that statistical and perceptual difference between the two is magnified in much the same way as Pele is viewed as a God and Messi not so much.

so paul pierce is much better than drexler?

i use this example simply because pierce outplayed kobe in the 08 finals while jordan destroyed drexler in the 92 finals.

LOL at the idea that kobe's peers are so much better. and LOL at the idea that at the age of 38-40 paul pierce could outplay jordan in a series the way he did kobe in 08.

you have to look at examples like that. could you ever imagine jordan losing a finals mvp to the likes of paul pierce? its laughable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Stats help your argument in that case. But what about in a scenario where they don't help your case? For example: Adrian Dantley was putting up 30 a game on 63 TS% from 81-86. Prove to me that Jordan was more efficient than Adrian Dantley in their prime years. Now you can't use stats, so you must use logic. Now you probably feel like a Kobe fan trying to explain to a stat geek why he is better than "player x."

Stats prove nothing, really. MJ is a better player than Kobe, but not because of stats.

Except that A) I never said that MJ was more efficient than Dantley, and B) it's a common tactic to point to guys like Dantley etc. when the fact is that 27+ ppg seasons on 50+% FG and high TS% were virtually nonexistent after 1987...except for one guy. I'll let you figure out why that is.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Totally agree. It's not so much that people keep referring to stats only, it's that they compare stats from different eras like it's nothing. To top it off, they overload on TS% and PER and all that shit and try to pass it on as fact.

As a former sports journalist in Jamaica covering cricket and football (soccer), this fristrates me to no end. People forget that relative to some of these other sports, basketball is still a young sport. THIS IS FACT: The less mature a sport is they greater the gap will be between the average, the good, and the great. This gap is the largest factor into who is historically viewed as the greatest player of all time in his respective sport. It unfairly gives an advantage to players who played the game in earlier years over players who play the game in more recent years as the talent pool and training regiment creates an atmosphere of better equipped players.

Testament to this is the fact that as a SG... Jordan had no peer. No equal. No rival. In stark contrast, Kobe has had to shrug off Iverson, McGrady, Carter, James, Wade and now Durant.

[guy]

The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.:oldlol:

Hakeem. Plus much of his career overlapped with Magic, Bird, and Shaq. Part of his career was even played with Kareem, Duncan, and Kobe. Then there's top 20 guys like Isiah, Barkley, Malone, and then part of his career had Moses and Dr. J. LOL at the idea that there weren't other great players playing during Jordan's day.

[Mor'Fiyah]

so paul pierce is much better than drexler?

i use this example simply because pierce outplayed kobe in the 08 finals while jordan destroyed drexler in the 92 finals.

LOL at the idea that kobe's peers are so much better. and LOL at the idea that at the age of 38-40 paul pierce could outplay jordan in a series the way he did kobe in 08.

you have to look at examples like that. could you ever imagine jordan losing a finals mvp to the likes of paul pierce? its laughable.

Paul Pierce did not duel Kobe and then outplay him. Kobe failed to breakdown this eras elite defensive teams. Its laughable that after pointing out your fallacious analogies that you would go and find an even worse one to defend the others. It should be fairly obvious how much better good to great NBA teams are able to limit individual players. Anyone think James' combination of size and speed would not have him completely destroying teams in the 90s? Who would stop him from getting to the rim?

[Svendiggity]

Except that A) I never said that MJ was more efficient than Dantley, and B) it's a common tactic to point to guys like Dantley etc. when the fact is that 27+ ppg seasons on 50+% FG and high TS% were virtually nonexistent after 1987...except for one guy. I'll let you figure out why that is.

My point is, Jordan isn't better than Kobe because his efficiency stats are better. As evidence, I brought up Dantley, because his efficiency stats are better than Jordans. And he's obviously not better than Jordan.

Funny that I had to explain that to you.

[G.O.A.T.]

There is no real proof that Jordan was better than Bryant.

lol GTFO

[JustinJDW]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaq
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

There's my list. :cheers:

[Batz]

I don't know what's more hillarious. Him putting Kobe above Kareem/Magic/Bird or putting Oscar anywhere near the top 5/10... :roll: :roll:

[thejumpa]

As a former sports journalist in Jamaica covering cricket and football (soccer), this fristrates me to no end. People forget that relative to some of these other sports, basketball is still a young sport. THIS IS FACT: The less mature a sport is they greater the gap will be between the average, the good, and the great. This gap is the largest factor into who is historically viewed as the greatest player of all time in his respective sport. It unfairly gives an advantage to players who played the game in earlier years over players who play the game in more recent years as the talent pool and training regiment creates an atmosphere of better equipped players.

Testament to this is the fact that as a SG... Jordan had no peer. No equal. No rival. In stark contrast, Kobe has had to shrug off Iverson, McGrady, Carter, James, Wade and now Durant.

Very true.

Personally, Jordan is better to me and always will be. Stats, championships, incredible moments, "clutch factor", the ability to do it until he was 40, being very efficent, doing it all in 13 seasons, dominating at his position....it's all included. All the stars have to align for Kobe to be with him and they just haven't. Great talent, probably more skillful than Jordan was, but not able to do it like MJ. No one has been able to do it like MJ did.

Let's keep it real, though. Kobe doesn't have to shrug off LeBron or KD. They don't play his position, are much younger, and don't even guard each other when they do play. I'd say TMac and AI were his only real equals. You could say Carter but that's another story.

This is exactly why I don't like doing comparisons of players anymore. It's pointless. At the end of day, it's an opinion. My stepfather watched all these guys play and knows a shitload about basketball. He still maintains that Wilt was the greatest ever and Bird,Magic, and Kareem are better than MJ. I say he's crazy but I'm 24 and grew up on a different kind of basketball. Go figure.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I swear some of you stat geeks never even watch games. It's all about stats, stats, stats....go outside and shoot some ****ing jumpers or something.

+1 :cheers: I hate all that PER, TS%, win share, etc. It's all garbage and has no relevance in a basketball discussion. It's a way for people who have never played/coached basketball try and make themselves feel connected to the game in some way.


I am a Kobe FAN. Not a stan. I believe Jordan to be the better player career-wise. But Kobe is closing the gap and the true difference between the two is the eras they played in.

That statement alone relegates you to "stan" status and not "fan". Only a complete idiot believes utter garbage like that.


There is no real proof that Jordan was better than Bryant.

Here's all the proof you need:

http://www.nba.com/finals2004/
http://www.nba.com/finals2008/
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/12666699/ns/sports-nba/

Keep talking out of your @$$ "TheLogo" :rolleyes:

[Svendiggity]

That statement alone relegates you to "stan" status and not "fan". Only a complete idiot believes utter garbage like that.


Who knows what the future holds. This Lakers team could win 1 or 2 more titles. In that scenario, the comparisons between Kobe and MJ could start to be made. It's Not likely to happen. But it is possible. I could definitely see them winning this year. Who knows, they may rattle off 5 straight titles. We'll see.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ "there's no real proof that Jordan is better than Bryant." :oldlol:

There's no real proof that Shaq is better than Parish, either. Let Kobe worry about distinguishing himself against his contemporaries first before you start worrying about him being better than Jordan. Dude's never even led the league in ANY advanced statistical metric even a SINGLE TIME. And THIS is the supposed GOAT? Sorry, but no. :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

And please feel free to show how Lebron and Wade are any closer in comparison to Jordan than Kobe is using their career stats. I am a Kobe FAN. Not a stan. I believe Jordan to be the better player career-wise. But Kobe is closing the gap and the true difference between the two is the eras they played in. Jordan was so much better than his peers and Kobe's peers so much better than Jordan's that statistical and perceptual difference between the two is magnified in much the same way as Pele is viewed as a God and Messi not so much.

Kobe has never been as good a basketball player as Jordan was. Whoever they played with or against is irrelevant. Who's to say that all of Kobe's "peers" would be as good as they are in a less perimeter-oriented league? The league wants wing players to be stars in the same way the NFL wants to make a star out of every quarterback. Lebron and DWade, 2 of the best players in the NBA, can't even play off-the-ball 7 or 8 years into their career. :facepalm

And I don't see how Kobe can close the gap when he's not even as good now as he was a few years ago. Unless you're talking career accomplishments. And even then, Kobe only has a shot at accumulating achievements due to longevity, not because he's a better player.

[scm5]

That statement alone relegates you to "stan" status and not "fan". Only a complete idiot believes utter garbage like that.


And this statement alone lets us know that you have a sub-par understanding of the english language.

Kobe is still a lesser player statistically and defensively, but as far as accomplishments, the gap is closing. Not closed.

There is a difference, if you can understand it.

[guy]

Testament to this is the fact that as a SG... Jordan had no peer. No equal. No rival. In stark contrast, Kobe has had to shrug off Iverson, McGrady, Carter, James, Wade and now Durant.

Lebron and Durant are not SGs. If you're going to add those guys into Kobe's group of rivals, it should only be fair to add Magic, Bird, Barkley, Nique, Hill, Penny, etc. for Jordan.

I don't really understand why it matters what position those guys played. Jordan definitely had great players playing during his career. He had plenty of great players, regardless of position, challenging Jordan for best player in the league. The fact that some of those guys are the same position as Kobe has no relevance. Its not like they were stopping him from being great.

[scm5]

And I don't see how Kobe can close the gap when he's not even as good now as he was a few years ago. Unless you're talking career accomplishments. And even then, Kobe only has a shot at accumulating achievements due to longevity, not because he's a better player.

In the end, accomplishments matter more. Case in point: Bill Russel and Wilt. Russel was never any good offensively but was a beast defensively in a weaker league (less teams). Today, his 11 championships is unrivaled and he is heralded as one of the Top 5-10 best players to play the game. Wilt put up more points, rebounded more, and when matched with Bill Russel, Wilt scored more points and grabbed more rebounds. Wilt outplayed Russel in every way possible, yet by most accounts, Russel is the greater player.

Russel had more success, less stats, and less talent. His team was more stacked. He won more games, and wayyy more championships.

[MrJohnWall]

LOL. so you would take bosh over garnett?

LOL

dirk over KG in their primes. offense is more important according to you. monta ellis over gerald wallace? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

sadly i think most GM's in the NBA think like morons like you. no wonder only 4 teams at most every year even have a chance to win a title. the basketball world simply does not know what wins titles. you take your durant/carmelo offensive wonders and i'll take my kg's and pippen's and payton's. and my guys will win in the playoffs. you guys like nash/melo/durant will be bouncing out early every year.

nash is a perfect example of this. one of the truly great offensive players ever. but also one of the worst defensive players ever. dude has never even been to the nba finals and has played with loads of talent. funny how those defensive minded spurs beat them pretty much every year.

damn.....


are you dumb? or just play dumb to try to get a meaningless point across?

When has Kg not been able to play offense? He's better then Bosh offensively in his prime and Kg is a all time great defender so try again.

Lol @ you grabbing at straws now because you realize how stupid you are.

The point was take players on the complete opposite side of the spectrums

Would you take Marcus Camby Over Chrish Bosh or Dirk? No

Fact is a all time great offensive player is worth much more then a ll time great defensive player

[Da_Realist]

In the end, accomplishments matter more. Case in point: Bill Russel and Wilt. Russel was never any good offensively but was a beast defensively in a weaker league (less teams). Today, his 11 championships is unrivaled and he is heralded as one of the Top 5-10 best players to play the game. Wilt put up more points, rebounded more, and when matched with Bill Russel, Wilt scored more points and grabbed more rebounds. Wilt outplayed Russel in every way possible, yet by most accounts, Russel is the greater player.

Russel had more success, less stats, and less talent. His team was more stacked. He won more games, and wayyy more championships.

Not the same thing. Wilt was a better individual player than Russell was. Kobe doesn't do anything better than Jordan did. Jordan scored more on better efficiency, rebounded more, dished out more assists, led the league in steals 3 times and blocked more shots. Not only that, he was regarded as the best player in the league throughout his career and has 5 MVP's to prove it. He was not better than Jordan at anything. His only hope is to get more titles. That's a longevity thing. He's not getting 5 MVP's. He's not getting 6 Finals MVP's. He's not going to have a better career average at anything except maybe ft% and 3pt%. That's it. Totally different ballgame.

[Turkododo]

barkley is crazy.

[kingkong]

this thread is about Kobe being top 5, why compare him to the #1?

we could compare Magic and Kareem to MJ too..

[Round Mound]

Barkley always changes his mind.

We know Kobe is not Among the Best in Terms of Dominance, More Dominant Players

Wilt
Kareem
M Malone
Jordan
Hakeem
Barkley
K. Malone
D-Rob
Shaq
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron


More Dominant: .

Now among the most skilled and those who maker others better

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Big 0
Walton: healthy games
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Jordan
Barkley
Stockton
Pippen
D-Rob
Duncan
Garnett
Wade
Kobe



Then u have:

Kobe
Wade
Hondo etc..

Kobe is in the Top 20 Among Dominant Players

And among the Top 17 in those who makes othre Better

Top 20 is the more exact.

[necya]

In the end, accomplishments matter more. Case in point: Bill Russel and Wilt. Russel was never any good offensively but was a beast defensively in a weaker league (less teams). Today, his 11 championships is unrivaled and he is heralded as one of the Top 5-10 best players to play the game. Wilt put up more points, rebounded more, and when matched with Bill Russel, Wilt scored more points and grabbed more rebounds. Wilt outplayed Russel in every way possible, yet by most accounts, Russel is the greater player.

Russel had more success, less stats, and less talent. His team was more stacked. He won more games, and wayyy more championships.

nope, title is a team accomplishment, you need the whole story, not to diminish Russell but if he played with a crappy team his entire career, he would have no ring but he would still be the same player, i mean the same great player with the same value.

that's why i disagree when some say TD is better than Barkley or Malone because he led his team to titles. come on, put Malone in the 00's and he would rape the entire league.

[Da_Realist]

nope, title is a team accomplishment, you need the whole story, not to diminish Russell but if he played with a crappy team his entire career, he would have no ring but he would still be the same player, i mean the same great player with the same value.

that's why i disagree when some say TD is better than Barkley or Malone because he led his team to titles. come on, put Malone in the 00's and he would rape the entire league.

Gotta disagree with the Duncan reference. I love Barkley (Malone, not so much..) but Duncan's better than both of them.

[Big#50]

There is no real proof that Jordan was better than Bryant.

I know there are a lot of Laker haters but when asked who the best player in your generation or this past decade......the time will come when Kobe retires and you haters will be forced to say that player is Kobe Bryant.
Kobe isn't the best player of this generation. Never was. That would be Duncan and Shaq. And now it is Lebron. Go jack off to our Kobe posters.

[DatWasNashty]

come on, put Malone in the 00's and he would rape the entire league.

The only thing that choker would rape is little girls. Malone isn't close to the player Duncan is and it has nothing to do with the titles they won. I'd take a ringless Duncan over Malone any day of the week.

Barkley wasn't better either because his defense and Duncan's is miles apart. Duncan also doesn't have questionable work ethic, poor conditioning or egotistical issues.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not the same thing. Wilt was a better individual player than Russell was. Kobe doesn't do anything better than Jordan did. Jordan scored more on better efficiency, rebounded more, dished out more assists, led the league in steals 3 times and blocked more shots. Not only that, he was regarded as the best player in the league throughout his career and has 5 MVP's to prove it. He was not better than Jordan at anything. His only hope is to get more titles. That's a longevity thing. He's not getting 5 MVP's. He's not getting 6 Finals MVP's. He's not going to have a better career average at anything except maybe ft% and 3pt%. That's it. Totally different ballgame.

Exactly. These kids are ridiculous. :oldlol: Also, it should be noted that far more people have Wilt ranked over Russell than vice versa anyway.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, Magic and Duncan over Kobe right now.

As far as Russell? I'm not going to try to compare them either way. There's such little game footage available so it's very tough to judge him because from what I've read, a lot of what he did didn't show up in the box score.

I have Russell top 10 without a doubt, and ahead of Wilt for reasons I've stated , but I'm not sure where exactly I'd put him in the top 10.

Back to Kobe, he could move up a couple of spots on my list, but I can't see him cracking my top 5 because Hakeem was just a better player, IMO.

[Jasper]

Just mentioned it...



Barkley has some legit view points about playing the game.

But when it comes to evaluating players in the history of the sport as well as rules ..... sometimes Charlie's speaks like his golf swing ---- Off.

[MrJohnWall]

Barkley always changes his mind.

We know Kobe is not Among the Best in Terms of Dominance, More Dominant Players

Wilt
Kareem
M Malone
Jordan
Hakeem
Barkley
K. Malone
D-Rob
Shaq
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron


More Dominant: .

Now among the most skilled and those who maker others better

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Big 0
Walton: healthy games
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Jordan
Barkley
Stockton
Pippen
D-Rob
Duncan
Garnett
Wade
Kobe



Then u have:

Kobe
Wade
Hondo etc..

Kobe is in the Top 20 Among Dominant Players

And among the Top 17 in those who makes othre Better

Top 20 is the more exact.
Malone, Barkely, Lebron, garnett,Duncan more dominant then Kobe?
:roll: :roll: :roll:


Thats a good laugh

[PHILA]

Back to Kobe, he could move up a couple of spots on my list, but I can't see him cracking my top 5 because Hakeem was just a better player, IMO.

So were Chamberlain and Russell, indisputably.

[G-Funk]

Two Point FG

One thing becomes clear when we look at our sample of data Michael Jordan attempted many more shots than did Kobe Bryant from two point range.

Breaking it down Michael Jordan made 10,065 out of 19,176 attempts which equals 52.5% from inside the arc.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand made 7,102 out of 14,567 shots which equals 48.8% from the same distance. Although Jordan shot many more times than did Kobe he still bested the Lakers guard by 3.7%.

[G-Funk]

Three Point Shooting

Kobe Bryant likes to shoot the three much more than Jordan ever did. During our sample time frame Kobe made 1177-3473 attempts from three point land which averages to 33.9%.

Meanwhile Michael Jordan while playing for the Bulls hit 536-1620 attempts from three which equals 33% from outside. Kobe maintains a slightly higher average with more than double the attempts and therefore takes this category.

[G-Funk]

Free Throw Shooting

Kobe: 6044-7185 84.1%

Jordan: 6584-7854 83.8%

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Kobe is not better then Larry Bird. At Larry Bird's worst he was at Kobe's best.

[BlackJordan]

Kobe > Bird

[branslowski]

Kobe is not better then Larry Bird. At Larry Bird's worst he was at Kobe's best.

:rolleyes:

[macpierce]

Kobe is not better then Larry Bird. At Larry Bird's worst he was at Kobe's best.
Mark Jackson -"You're better than that!"
:no:

[Round Mound]

Malone, Barkely, Lebron, garnett,Duncan more dominant then Kobe?
:roll: :roll: :roll:


Thats a good laugh

Yes. They shot at a higher %, rebounded more, showed more impressive assit numbers (in relation to thers in their positions), where more versatile: Barkley could play PF/SF. Duncan C, Garnett SF/PF/C, Lebron can play SF/Point Forward and SG.

[branslowski]

Yes. They shot at a higher %, rebounded more, showed more impressive assit numbers (in relation to thers in their positions), where more versatile: Barkley could play PF/SF. Duncan C, Garnett SF/PF/C, Lebron can play SF/Point Forward and SG.

Atleast you don't write your stupidity in multi color format anymore..:ohwell:




Anyway, about the thread with Barkley's comments....I disagree...Kobe isn't top 5, and Robinson Damn sure isn't top 2....Kobe is top 10, more at the 8-10 range....Adding to that, anyone who doesn't have Kobe in atleast the top 11 is a f*cking Moron and needs to close their laptop and quit life.

[FKAri]

If the Lakers win it again this season I'll move him ahead of Bird. I'd still have him behind MJ, Russell, Kareem, Magic and Wilt though. Wilt's definitely on shaky ground though.

lol. Lets say it goes down to game 7; last shot; Kobe takes it; its off by an inch; Lakers lose.

If it had gone in they woulda won. So thatll decide if he's better than Bird or not? lol.

[MakeHistory78]

Barkley last years said that Kobe wasn't a Top-10 player ever and LeBron is better than him and now he says that Kobe is a Top-5?:facepalm

Bulls..t.
It's ridiculous.He say that Kobe:oldlol: is better than Magic and Bird??OMG.GTFO Barkley.
Kobe was never a better player than Magic and Bird.Never.
AND ROFL Barkley said that Kobe is a better player than Kareem......:oldlol: :lol :roll: :facepalm
Only a moron would say that Kobe>Kareem..Kareem is a Top-3 player ever a 6 time MVP winner and Kobe a better player than him?...Kareem was a beast at his prime..Kobe nowhere to him!GTFOH Barkley

[MrJohnWall]

Yes. They shot at a higher %, rebounded more, showed more impressive assit numbers (in relation to thers in their positions), where more versatile: Barkley could play PF/SF. Duncan C, Garnett SF/PF/C, Lebron can play SF/Point Forward and SG.
:sleeping

Kobe outscore all of them. Thats how you really dominant

Who else averaged 35 a game for a season Jordan, Wilt? thats it :oldlol:

[Niquesports]

I don't know what's more hillarious. Him putting Kobe above Kareem/Magic/Bird or putting Oscar anywhere near the top 5/10... :roll: :roll:
I tell you whats really hillarious you not thinking oscar isnt a top 5 . Now you calling yourself a basketball fan and not having Oscar in a top % is really hillarious

[amfirst]

Get out of here. Kobe is better than Magic. I'm not too sure about Kareem. Didn't see him play in his prime only 1985 and up.

Kobe in his prime would have smoke players in the 80s. Yes, I watch them and they don't even defend the mid range shot.

[MakeHistory78]

:sleeping

Kobe outscore all of them. Thats how you really dominant

Who else averaged 35 a game for a season Jordan, Wilt? thats it :oldlol:
Are you 15 years old???What bull...t is this?And Iverson had 33 ppg was he a better scorer than Bird?Idiot you must be efficient not only shot the ball and Kobe was never close to Bird-Magic and any top-10 great as an efficient scorer..Ivesron the same...
Really idiotic!

[Niquesports]

The funny thing is that MJ's era only produced 1 top ten player. Just ONE. This era has shaq, duncan, kobe, and soon to be lebron. Weak era? It just goes to show you how stupid some people are.:oldlol:
Hey stupid MJ's era
Hakeem was better than Shaq
Karl malone and Barkley were just as good if not better than Duncan. Lebron has yet to do anything to put him in a top 10 conversation.many would say Magic and Bird were in JordANS ERA.As was Pat Ewing JOhn Stockton

[MrJohnWall]

Are you 15 years old???What bull...t is this?And Iverson had 33 ppg was he a better scorer than Bird?Idiot you must be efficient not only shot the ball and Kobe was never close to Bird-Magic and any top-10 great as an efficient scorer..Ivesron the same...
Really idiotic!
Kobe is much better then Bird & Magic.

Are you going to ignore the fact that the league fg% and ppg were much higher then they are now? :lol:

Defense was pretty much non existent then. Iverson would be putting up Wilt numbers in the 80's just stop it.


Bird & Magic could even make all first team defense :sleeping

Kobe has 8 of them

[MakeHistory78]

Kobe is much better then Bird & Magic.
Defense alone separates him from both of them
A 10 year old can tell you that.
The mass is starting to realize it too


Bird & Magic could even make all first team defense :sleeping

Kobe has 8 of them
So what?Kobe isn't a better offensive player than Magic and Bird.Not even close..And as a defender is better but not by far.....If you or anyone think that Kobe deserve all the 8 selections then you just kidding yourself..Especially last years he is very overrated as a defender..

[MrJohnWall]

So what?Kobe isn't a better offensive player than Magic and Bird.Not even close..And as a defender is better but not by far.....If you or anyone think that Kobe deserve all the 8 selections then you just kidding yourself..Especially last years he is very overrated as a defender..
Yes he is. Call me when Bird or Magic can average 30 a game let alone 35 :oldlol:

And you want to bring up league numbers? The league ppg and fg% was much higher in the 80's. :lol:

Defense was non existent

Kobe would be putting up Wilt Like numbers in the 80's

Bird & Magic are no where near as good as Kobe on offense

[MakeHistory78]

Yes he is. Call me when Bird or Magic can average 30 a game let alone 35 :oldlol:

And you want to bring up league numbers? The league ppg and fg% was much higher in the 80's. :lol:

Defense was non existent

Kobe would be putting up Wilt Like numbers in the 80's

Bird & Magic are no where near as good as Kobe on offense
http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/larry-johnson-magic-johnson-7311a6b2066dc23a_large.jpg
Go to sleep....This is very idiotic...
Perhaps you also think that John Wall would be putting 60 p.pg and 20 a.pg at 60's.....:oldlol:
And Lol "Defense was non existent" at the 80's..DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HAND CHECKING?GOODNIGHT fan boy

[Niquesports]

Yes. They shot at a higher %, rebounded more, showed more impressive assit numbers (in relation to thers in their positions), where more versatile: Barkley could play PF/SF. Duncan C, Garnett SF/PF/C, Lebron can play SF/Point Forward and SG.
Elgin Baylor was better than Barkley,Malone,and Duncan and Lebron which he was as skilled and dominant as Elgin was

[MrJohnWall]

http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/larry-johnson-magic-johnson-7311a6b2066dc23a_large.jpg
Go to sleep....This is very idiotic...
Perhaps you also think that John Wall would be putting 60 p.pg and 20 a.pg at 60's.....:oldlol:
Yeah ignore logic
Numbers dont lie lol
Its harder to score today then it was in the 80's
and numbers prove it

Continue to post pics to try and cover your stupidity

[che guevara]

Yes he is. Call me when Bird or Magic can average 30 a game let alone 35 :oldlol:

And you want to bring up league numbers? The league ppg and fg% was much higher in the 80's. :lol:

Defense was non existent

Kobe would be putting up Wilt Like numbers in the 80's

Bird & Magic are no where near as good as Kobe on offense
Bird averaged 30 ppg in 1988. Try again. Also, offense isn't just volume scoring. You have to take scoring efficiency (Bird and Magic are superior here), assists, and TOs into account as well.

[Niquesports]

Yeah ignore logic
Numbers dont lie lol
Its harder to score today then it was in the 80's
and numbers prove it

Continue to post pics to try and cover your stupidity
Lil guy cut off ESPN open a book and read what people who saw theses guys play say about them.Kobe would be a Dominique Wilkins if he played in the 80's lots of points maybe but little to show for it. Kobe might be a better much better athelet than both but overall basketball player its not even close. When you post things like Kobe is better and then call people that saw the game and know the game names you just dont know how bad you look .

[MrJohnWall]

Lil guy cut off ESPN open a book and read what people who saw theses guys play say about them.Kobe would be a Dominique Wilkins if he played in the 80's lots of points maybe but little to show for it. Kobe might be a better much better athelet than both but overall basketball player its not even close. When you post things like Kobe is better and then call people that saw the game and know the game names you just dont know how bad you look .
Lol @ cut off espn. Go look at the numbers from the 80s
league had a gigher ppg and higher fg% then today
Men Lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont
Jordan would be ringless if Kobe played his prime in the 90's
see how easy that was

[MakeHistory78]

Lol @ cut off espn. Go look at the numbers from the 80s
league had a gigher ppg and higher fg% then today
Men Lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont
Jordan would be ringless if Kobe played his prime in the 90's
see how easy that was
If you feel good with this Bull....t that's ok..You are a little fan boy..
But the true is that....:confusedshrug:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0SWl0hRdg4A/S-ArVKCdZFI/AAAAAAAAP_4/5x_mwjAP24o/s1600/kobeMJordan.jpg

[necya]

Lol @ cut off espn. Go look at the numbers from the 80s
league had a gigher ppg and higher fg% then today
Men Lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont
Jordan would be ringless if Kobe played his prime in the 90's
see how easy that was

:applause: :bowdown:
ok, you are stupid, thanks for letting us know, but we have already noticed.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Lebron and Durant are not SGs. If you're going to add those guys into Kobe's group of rivals, it should only be fair to add Magic, Bird, Barkley, Nique, Hill, Penny, etc. for Jordan.

I don't really understand why it matters what position those guys played. Jordan definitely had great players playing during his career. He had plenty of great players, regardless of position, challenging Jordan for best player in the league. The fact that some of those guys are the same position as Kobe has no relevance. Its not like they were stopping him from being great.

I keep hearing this argument in here over and over again. And I worse, I hear the argument tagged along with the statement "lets be real". lol... seriously people lets be real. Jordan never really had a peer not because there weren't other great players in the game.. but because there weren't any other perimeter players in the game that could compete with him over a number of seasons. Centers, and powerforwards are all more efficient than point guards and shooting guards in general if you just look at stats. But if everyone ONLY took the most efficient shots the game would be crappy, one-dimensional and low scoring because teams could allocate all their resources to stopping those shots. This is why perimeter players are just as valuable and affect the game just as much despite it not showing on the stat sheet. Its because they are versed at taking the most AVAILABLE shot that is likely also the least efficient and MAKING it at a relatively high percentage (higher that 45%). There are more of these shots in the game of basketball and as such perimeter players are, and likely always will be the stars of the league. Because just like center forwards in soccer, number three batsmen in cricket, the quarter back in the NFL, etc, they have the most options to affect the game and as such are the least predictable to stop. Jordan had no peer in that regard irrespective of what position people were listed at. Kobe has had countless that he has flat out just outlasted. Lebron and Wade and Durant and Melo ARE Kobe's peers as PERIMETER players.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Three Point Shooting

Kobe Bryant likes to shoot the three much more than Jordan ever did. During our sample time frame Kobe made 1177-3473 attempts from three point land which averages to 33.9%.

Meanwhile Michael Jordan while playing for the Bulls hit 536-1620 attempts from three which equals 33% from outside. Kobe maintains a slightly higher average with more than double the attempts and therefore takes this category.

Disingenuous. He doesn't just take a single category. He was MUCH better than Jordan in this category by virtue of sheer volume while maintaining a better %. This means a hell of a lot more beyond the arc because each of those makes is 1 point more than a 2pt FG make. It exponentially increases Kobe's efficiency... and what doesn't show on the stat sheet is what any coach, analyst and player will tell you: teams give other players those shots more often than they do shots at the rim because they are harder shots. Having someone who can take these more available shots and knock large volumes of them down at a respectable level are incredibly valuable.

[T-bomb 25]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaq
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

There's my list. :cheers:Mine is a bit different but i like yours to:
1.M.J.
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Duncan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson
11.Russell
12.Elgin Baylor
13.K.Malone
14.P.Maravich
15.Moses Malone
16.Charles Barkley
17,Dr. J.
18.Isiah Thomas
19.B.King
20.Nique

[guy]

Jordan never really had a peer not because there weren't other great players in the game.. but because there weren't any other perimeter players in the game that could compete with him over a number of seasons.

Like I said, why are what you consider to be his "peers" only limited to perimeter players? It shouldn't be.



Centers, and powerforwards are all more efficient than point guards and shooting guards in general if you just look at stats. But if everyone ONLY took the most efficient shots the game would be crappy, one-dimensional and low scoring because teams could allocate all their resources to stopping those shots. This is why perimeter players are just as valuable and affect the game just as much despite it not showing on the stat sheet. Its because they are versed at taking the most AVAILABLE shot that is likely also the least efficient and MAKING it at a relatively high percentage (higher that 45%). There are more of these shots in the game of basketball and as such perimeter players are, and likely always will be the stars of the league. Because just like center forwards in soccer, number three batsmen in cricket, the quarter back in the NFL, etc, they have the most options to affect the game and as such are the least predictable to stop.

Good point. It actually just supports how great Jordan was. He did all those things a great perimeter player does and did as efficiently as some of the greatest big men the league has ever seen. You can't say that about that many perimeter players, if any, and that includes Kobe.



Jordan had no peer in that regard irrespective of what position people were listed at. Kobe has had countless that he has flat out just outlasted. Lebron and Wade and Durant and Melo ARE Kobe's peers as PERIMETER players.

I don't understand how the likes of Melo, Durant, AI, T-Mac, and Vince being Kobe's "peers" is more impressive then the likes of Magic, Bird, Isiah, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Shaq being Jordan's peers just because they were perimeter players. Does not make sense at all.

[Willkill24]

Barkley is wrong Kobe is the greatest. :rockon:

[NBASTATMAN]

Funny thing is this thread will get a shitload of replies and probably go 20 pages. At the end of the day, it's an opinion and Chuck is entitled to his.

Besides, when it's all said and done, he's gonna be top 5 anyway. Or atleast really close. Especially if he keeps winning or just keeps playing until his body falls apart. That's real talk....

Not now though Chuck....too soon. He flat out disrespected Larry,Magic,Duncan,Shaq....way too soon.


Don't worry nobody takes anything Charles says seriously.. Not even Kobe stans.. LOL.. Truth be told Kobe is a top 10 player and a top 5 talent ever.. He does have a chance to be a top 5-7 player.. Only way he breaks the one thru four club is if he plays 5 more years... For all his clutch performances he has never been even close to great in any finals... That will hurt his legacy more than anything else.. But the kid is so into basketball he may prove me wrong by playing 10 more years... But he could also get hurt this season.. If he were to quit right now he is 10th in my book... I don't see him getting in the mj ,russell and kareem category..