ESPN: Kobe motivated by chasing Jordan?

[Roundball_Rock]

Could it really be that a man who retired eight seasons ago and won his sixth and final championship in 1998, two years before Bryant won his first, is in the back of Bryant's mind every time he drives to the hoop? That he goes through every painful therapy session on his right knee and puts his 32-year-old body through another back-to-back just because he wants to be like Mike?

Or maybe it's because he wants to be better than Mike.


Bryant can't escape the Jordan comparisons. They both played shooting guard; their bodies during their primes were nearly identical in shape and size at 6-foot-6, 200 pounds; they both had a penchant for shining brightest when the utmost pressure was applied.

"I think that Kobe has some pretty good incentive, as if he ever needed any," NBA commissioner David Stern said before the Lakers beat the Houston Rockets on opening night, bringing up Jordan without ever actually saying the words "Michael Jordan."

Jordan has been a longtime supporter of Bryant's, but as Kobe's career is fast approaching Jordan's from a historical sense, MJ's competitive side is kicking in.

If you read into Bryant's response about the all-time minutes mark, he frames the accomplishment by taking pride in only playing for one team. It's something that he can hold over Jordan, who unceremoniously ended his career ambling around the court with a Washington Wizards jersey on.

In an interview with USA Today during the preseason, Jordan was asked where Bryant should rank all time. Jordan placed him in the top 10 guards, balking at the opportunity to baptize him as one of the all-time best. It was viewed as a slight by Jordan, but people forget that just a few months earlier Jordan weighed in on the Bryant-LeBron James debate by saying that Bryant was the better player of the two.





I had to ask Bryant what tying Jordan could mean. Six titles has to have some pull to it, right?

"I want to win six just like I wanted to win one, that's the object of playing," he said in a quiet moment after a shootaround in Denver earlier this month. "If I need motivation to say I wanted to get six because I wanted to have the same as Michael, to me, that's weak."

It is starting. :cheers:

[The_Yearning]

That's right. The Black Mamba wants more than six. He wants at least 7.

[All Net]

Kobe is motivated but it has nothing to do with MJ.

[blondie]

The GOAT says that old Kobe is better than Prime James-and still the idiots of ISH think lebron the ringless regular season wonder (aka the modern Karl Malone) is better than Kobe of the 5 rings

[FinishHim!]

LOL, I love Kobe and his diplomatic answers. Just like when they were asking him if it would mean anything to have 5. And he gave a similar type answer and then after he wins it he says "I have one more than Shaq." He clearly wants to win 6 to tie Jordan and then further on to pass him with 7.

[Allstar24]

ESPN needs to do something better with their time...like write more articles about Miami. They're so obsessed with the idea of Kobe being motivated by MJ, they don't actually care whether its true or not.

[IGOTGAME]

this is just a ploy to take the spotlight off Lebron's struggles.

[Roundball_Rock]

He probably is at least partially motivated by a desire to eclipse Jordan. Why wouldn't he? He is similar and has been compared to MJ from day 1. Why not shoot for surpassing him in the public eye when he has several good years left?

The most interesting thing about the article is there were no caveats that MJ fans always employ. The only reference to Shaq was with respect to "5 vs. 4" and Kobe giving politically correct answers about Shaq in the past. There was no talk about the meaningless label of "sidekick." This is how the media will cover it if Kobe reaches 6--and may Nike forbid--more than 6. It will be 6 versus 6, 7 versus 6. The media and the public, which is greatly influenced by the former, is not going to engage in absurdities such as subtracting 3 rings from Kobe because he happened to play with Shaq.

Of course, 7>6 does not necessarily mean the player with 7 rings is superior. Russell has nearly twice as many rings as Jordan yet MJ has probably 20 times more support for GOAT than Russell. Kareem has as many rings as MJ and more MVP's yet lags far behind in popular opinion as well. Magic? 5 rings in 11 or 12 years--a better batting average than Jordan's 6 in 15 years and Magic made 9 finals to Jordan's 6. Yet Magic also is far behind Jordan in public opinion.

[Done_And_Done]

How is this even a debatable topic of discussion. He's merely two Championships shy of exceeding an individual milestone set by the greatest player the game of basketball has ever seen or known. You'd have to have absolutely no competitive spirit or desire for greatness to not make surpassing MJ a personal goal. Motivation is the fuel which leads to success...

[VeeCee15]

Kobe

Career 45% shooter
Career PPG much lower than MJ
Career ASSISTS and REBOUNDS much lower than MJ
Much worse defender than MJ
Much less athletic than MJ

3 championships as SECOND FIDDLE.

Carried by Gasol for last two championships and getting more credit than deserved. (prior to Gasol, lakers were lottery bound and kobe wanted to leave).

[Sarcastic]

ESPN coming through with a new and original story.

[guy]

It is starting. :cheers:

What is starting? Kobe's been compared to Jordan his whole career.

[Collie]

I don't see how he could ever get into the GOAT tier, which is comprised of MJ, KAJ and Russell. He simply did not dominate as much and leave a stamp that defines that tier.

Not to mention guys like Magic, Bird, Shaq if you rank him higher, same with Duncan etc. I can put him top 5 all time if he wins 2 more rings, but can't justify the GOAT tier.

[Showtime]

like winning 7 means he's better?

[Da_Realist]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100208/two


My favorite MJ stat of all time: From November 1990 through June 1998, the Bulls never lost three games in a row with Jordan. My second-favorite MJ stat of all time: In his final three Chicago seasons, in a 31-month stretch that started November '95 and ended June '98, he played in 310 of a possible 310 games. My third-favorite MJ stat of all time: He averaged 30.1 points in the regular season and 33.4 points in the playoffs. That's really all you needed to know about the guy. Warrior. Impossibly competitive. Got better when it mattered.

I think that's how Kobe wants to be remembered, too. Warrior? Definitely. Impossibly competitive? Yes. Got better when it mattered? Occasionally, not consistently. But he has one trump card for a history battle with Jordan: years. Thanks to college, a broken foot and two retirements, Jordan lost nearly eight seasons of games from 18 to 40. Kobe has been banging out seasons since he was 18. Barring injury, Kobe will play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs), score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever), play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244), pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record) and win seven titles (one more than Jordan). If he plays at a high level through his late 30s, he has a real chance to pass Kareem's 38,387 points.

Do I think he knows all these things? Yes.

Do I think he thinks in terms of, "I can't miss three weeks of games, that's 400 points that I'd lose toward chasing Kareem?" Yes.

Do I think this is a bad thing? Actually, no. He should be motivated by those things. Kobe Bryant will never be better than Michael Jordan, but he definitely could have a better career. It's in play. And he knows it.

[EricForman]

Kobe is motivated but it has nothing to do with MJ.

actually kobe said it has everything to do with MJ.. Michael JACKSON

lol

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aq7iFwWTQnger3hS4Z8DW6O8vLYF?slug=aw-kobebryantchat112310

[Colin Cowherd]

Once he ties Jordan in rings, he will then officially be as great.

[asdf1990]

Once he ties Jordan in rings, he will then officially be as great.

lol, he will be equally as great with fewer mvps, fewer dpoy, fewer fmvp, fewer scoring titles.

[Sarcastic]

Once he ties Jordan in rings, he will then officially be as great.

Since most#rings = GOAT, then Russell is GOAT, amirite?

[scm5]

Kobe

Career 45% shooter
Career PPG much lower than MJ
Career ASSISTS and REBOUNDS much lower than MJ
Much worse defender than MJ
Much less athletic than MJ

3 championships as SECOND FIDDLE.

Carried by Gasol for last two championships and getting more credit than deserved. (prior to Gasol, lakers were lottery bound and kobe wanted to leave).

Actually, prior to getting Gasol, the Lakers were #1 in the West until Andrew Bynum went down. Far from being a lottery team imo.

[Harion]

he should pray no lockout happens

[The_Yearning]

Lol the Black Mamba da best

They scared now

[PurpleChuck]

So the logic now is...Robert Horry > MJ/Kobe?:facepalm

[chazzy]

Lots of overused lines in this thread

[catch24]

Unless he gets at the minimum 3 more Final MVPs, it won't be close. Even then, with the way Gasol is playing, it's not out the realm of possibility he gets his share of MVP/Final MVP votes.

[JJ81]

Kobe is motivated but it has nothing to do with MJ.

This.

[Avon Barksdale]

The GOAT says that old Kobe is better than Prime James-and still the idiots of ISH think lebron the ringless regular season wonder (aka the modern Karl Malone) is better than Kobe of the 5 rings

The same GOAT that thought Kwame Brown was better than Pau Gasol, and thought Adam Morrison was better than Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay? That GOAT is clearly an excellent judge of talent.

[Avon Barksdale]

So the logic now is...Robert Horry > MJ/Kobe?:facepalm

Yes. And AMMO > Lebron James and Dwyane Wade...combined.

[DeronMillsap]

He's not gonna surpass MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell or Wilt...those guys are set in stone as basketball gods.

Kobe can set his legacy and be in that category.

[KingMichael23]

Once he ties Jordan in rings, he will then officially be as great.
Kobe is great but will not the greatest. Kobe can be the 2nd GOAT.

[32jazz]

How is this even a debatable topic of discussion. He's merely two Championships shy of exceeding an individual milestone set by the greatest player the game of basketball has ever seen or known. You'd have to have absolutely no competitive spirit or desire for greatness to not make surpassing MJ a personal goal. Motivation is the fuel which leads to success...

What's so special about 6 when Bill Russell won 11? :confusedshrug:

[AirJordan&Magic]

Kobe is great but will not the greatest. Kobe can be the 2nd GOAT.

Uh, no he will not.

If Kobe cannot surpass Jordan, what makes you think he will actually surpass KAJ or Russell?? Those 2 guys have as good as a case as g.o.a.t.

I simply cannot see Kobe surpassing Jordan, KAJ, Russell, and even Wilt.

[Rose]

Uh, no he will not.

If Kobe cannot surpass Jordan, what makes you think he will actually surpass KAJ or Russell?? Those 2 guys have as good as a case as g.o.a.t.

I simply cannot see Kobe surpassing Jordan, KAJ, Russell, and even Wilt.
I think he could pass Russell/Wilt if he won about 3 more rings.

[Da_Realist]

I think he could pass Russell/Wilt if he won about 3 more rings.

What if he won 3 more rings averaging 20 points on 41% from the field? Shouldn't it matter how you win, not just that you win?

[glidedrxlr22]

Kobe is motivated but it has nothing to do with MJ.

Yeah, that's what you'd like to think.....and you know this because????

[crisoner]

Kobe is great but will not the greatest. Kobe can be the 2nd GOAT.

Exactly....and what's wrong with this?

When it comes to comparing anybody to Jordan..the Jordan fan are real quick to take offense. What's funny is some of the Jordan fans out there are young and didn't even see him play.

This is the thing...IF you really LOVED Jordan..the way he played the game...his competitive drive...his Killer Instinct...etc. You SHOULD love Kobe.

Kobe himself has those same quality's. JORDAN himself even knows this why do you think he keeps saying he perfers Kobe to LeBron etc?

[MakeHistory78]

Before anyone compare Kobe to Jordan he must think first if he is close to other greats.
Is he better than the 6-time MVP winner Kareem?From the GOAT candidate primes Wilt and Shaq?From the best defender ever Bill Russell?From the two players who changed the game Magic and Bird?The answer is NO...
I can understand that some people compare Kobe to Jordan because of their style.
But as a player Kobe nowhere near to Mike

Jordan has 6 rings as the leader of his team
Kobe has 2 rings as the leader of his team

Jordan has 6 Finals MVP's
Kobe has 2 Finals MVP's

Jordan has 5 MVP's in 13 years
Kobe has 1 MVP in 14 years

Jordan has a DPOY 1988
Kobe not even close to win the award.

Jordan has by far fewer bad nights than Kobe as about efficiency
Jordan has by far much better Playoffs and Finals performances.Not even close to this
Jordan was better at defense and at offense.

It's ridiculous if anyone Kobe homer think that Kobe is close to MJ.Because he isn't.
Kobe can win 8 rings and still far away to be considered Top-3 ever.
Hell Russell has 11 rings and 5 MVP's and he isn't considered GOAT by many people...
And Kobe with 8 rings and 1 MVP will be considered Top-3 or GOAT?GTFOH

[Doranku]

This is stupid. Kobe will never catch Jordan.


Ever.

[Nevaeh]

This is stupid. Kobe will never catch Jordan.


Ever.

Fact. Kobe tucked himself nice and snug within Jordan's shadow at a young age. Rocking the Bald head (at age 17 no less lol), sporting the Air Jordan 11s, Mikes most famous shoe, and wagging that tongue like it was going out of style.

Really dumb moves if you wanna stand apart from MJ. Another poster already touched on the 45% shooting so yeah. GOAT's don't take dumb shots year in and year out for 14 straight years. It ain't natural.

[Duncan21formvp]

He probably is at least partially motivated by a desire to eclipse Jordan. Why wouldn't he? He is similar and has been compared to MJ from day 1. Why not shoot for surpassing him in the public eye when he has several good years left?

The most interesting thing about the article is there were no caveats that MJ fans always employ. The only reference to Shaq was with respect to "5 vs. 4" and Kobe giving politically correct answers about Shaq in the past. There was no talk about the meaningless label of "sidekick." This is how the media will cover it if Kobe reaches 6--and may Nike forbid--more than 6. It will be 6 versus 6, 7 versus 6. The media and the public, which is greatly influenced by the former, is not going to engage in absurdities such as subtracting 3 rings from Kobe because he happened to play with Shaq.

Of course, 7>6 does not necessarily mean the player with 7 rings is superior. Russell has nearly twice as many rings as Jordan yet MJ has probably 20 times more support for GOAT than Russell. Kareem has as many rings as MJ and more MVP's yet lags far behind in popular opinion as well. Magic? 5 rings in 11 or 12 years--a better batting average than Jordan's 6 in 15 years and Magic made 9 finals to Jordan's 6. Yet Magic also is far behind Jordan in public opinion.

Kareem and Russell are right there with MJ as far as GOAT candidates. But like mentioned before with Kareem he won half his titles with a player that was the best or 2nd best player in the league and that was better than he was and won 2 of his titles essentially as a role player.

[MakeHistory78]

Who cares about Jordan? Prime Shaq is easily the GOAT.

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nba_a_shaquille_395.jpg
"Michael's definitely the best basketball player of all time. He's the greatest offensive weapon to ever play, and probably the best defensive player we've ever seen." -Shaquille O'Neal

[TryToBeUnbias]

Lots of overused lines in this thread
this. Already know where this thread is headed lol

[che guevara]

Um, what's starting? Kobe's been compared to MJ since he was 18.

[MakeHistory78]

Did espn told him to say that or something? :roll:
Perhaps..But the sure thing is that he was better defender than Shaq.

[ginobli2311]

Exactly....and what's wrong with this?

When it comes to comparing anybody to Jordan..the Jordan fan are real quick to take offense. What's funny is some of the Jordan fans out there are young and didn't even see him play.

This is the thing...IF you really LOVED Jordan..the way he played the game...his competitive drive...his Killer Instinct...etc. You SHOULD love Kobe.

Kobe himself has those same quality's. JORDAN himself even knows this why do you think he keeps saying he perfers Kobe to LeBron etc?

not true. this is why i actually don't love kobe. too many things about him are fake. what you see as drive, killer instinct...all that media speak....all those growls and faces....i see them as fake.

i know kobe wants to win. so does everyone. but kobe....more than any other player i have ever seen....only wants to win his way. he couldn't handle shaq being better and more impactful. he can't handle making the right pass with the game on the line.

its all media speak...."best closer in the game".....how? he takes terrible shots and makes a low percentage late...especially in the playoffs. he's missed at least his last 10 game winning attempts in the playoffs.

all that drive and instinct is for kobe to prop himself up. not to win. that is why he needs such a great team around him to win. that is why he's not jordan or the other 9 greatest players ever. he can't really carry a team. he needs to be helped too often. too many times does kobe go into "weird kobe mode" and kill his team.

my god. we just saw this in game 7 of the nba finals. we've seen it so many times in his career.

in terms of level of play and impact. kobe isn't even in jordan's league. in terms of resume/career...kobe is right there.

i'll say it again. comparing kobe to jordan in terms of impact is like comparing kobe and paul pierce. the truth is that the gap between mj and kobe is much bigger than the gap between kobe and pierce.

but nobody here will admit that because you are blinded by your love for the lakers/kobe.

[Ne 1]

Face it, if Kobe wins 6 rings and passes Kareem on the all-time scoring list the media and most casual fans will consider him the GOAT.

[MakeHistory78]

False. Center's defensive impact>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perimeter defense
If we speak about Russell or Hakeem.Then yes.
Shaq has no business as a better defender.Jordan was a beast at defense and he won the DPOY against Hakkem and Eaton 1988.
And what's your point?
Shaq said that Jordan is the GOAT and answer by himself to your bulls...t
Shaq had a GOAT level prime but Jordan 91'-93' is the greatest player ever.Miles away from anyone.
If you are a hater a I don't give a damn.The reality is this.Anyone who watched Jordan at his prime know that.

[catch24]

Face it, if Kobe wins 6 rings and passes Kareem on the all-time scoring list the media and most casual fans will consider him the GOAT.

Nah.

[MakeHistory78]

Face it, if Kobe wins 6 rings and passes Kareem on the all-time scoring list the media and most casual fans will consider him the GOAT.
:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

False. Center's defensive impact>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perimeter defense

not always. most of the time yes. but i don't think shaq was a better overall impact defender than kobe for their careers.

both are enormously over-rated when it comes to defense. enormously. but kobe can be an elite defender at times. not sure shaq ever could. shaq's defense was really all about rebounding...thats it.

[chazzy]

shaq's defense was really all about rebounding...thats it.
What about clogging the paint and being an intimidating presence? That alone deters shots and impacts the way players attack the hoop,.

[che guevara]

Yeah, Shaq in his prime is an underrated defender. People confuse his lazy off-court habits (not staying in shape) with his effort on the court, which was almost always good. He came 2nd in DPOY voting in 2000 and anchored the best defense in the league that year, he was always a great shot blocker and altered countless other shots, he clogged the lane, intimidated players with hard fouls etc. He's not Hakeem or Duncan but he was a very effective defender.

[crisoner]

not true.


I think you just don't like the dude for what ever reason. OK...that is cool everybody has different opinions on people etc. But I disagree with you when you say Kobe's drive to win is all media hype?

Come on...the dudes work ethics are far beyond any player in the NBA. After winning a title he is taking noted offseason from The Dream on his post game...WHO DOES THAT? During the Olympics Kobe studies film on unknown players from other countries he has to defend. That set the tone for the team right there....not LeBron clowning around being "friends" with everyone.

So if you don't like him for whatever reason...that you.
But at this point in time...you got to respect his game straight up.
And if Jordan fans would take those hater glasses off....you will see and respect Kobe for the same reason you respect Jordan.

For real...been watching this game for a long time.
And if any of you hate Kobe for trying to be like Jordan...again...what is wrong with that? Jordan is only the greatest player ever all players should aspire to be like him.

[glidedrxlr22]

not true. this is why i actually don't love kobe. too many things about him are fake. what you see as drive, killer instinct...all that media speak....all those growls and faces....i see them as fake.

i know kobe wants to win. so does everyone. but kobe....more than any other player i have ever seen....only wants to win his way. he couldn't handle shaq being better and more impactful. he can't handle making the right pass with the game on the line.

its all media speak...."best closer in the game".....how? he takes terrible shots and makes a low percentage late...especially in the playoffs. he's missed at least his last 10 game winning attempts in the playoffs.

all that drive and instinct is for kobe to prop himself up. not to win. that is why he needs such a great team around him to win. that is why he's not jordan or the other 9 greatest players ever. he can't really carry a team. he needs to be helped too often. too many times does kobe go into "weird kobe mode" and kill his team.

my god. we just saw this in game 7 of the nba finals. we've seen it so many times in his career.

in terms of level of play and impact. kobe isn't even in jordan's league. in terms of resume/career...kobe is right there.

i'll say it again. comparing kobe to jordan in terms of impact is like comparing kobe and paul pierce. the truth is that the gap between mj and kobe is much bigger than the gap between kobe and pierce.

but nobody here will admit that because you are blinded by your love for the lakers/kobe.

This is a widely held opinion.....not just by haters. Repped.

[AirJordan&Magic]

not always. most of the time yes. but i don't think shaq was a better overall impact defender than kobe for their careers.

both are enormously over-rated when it comes to defense. enormously. but kobe can be an elite defender at times. not sure shaq ever could. shaq's defense was really all about rebounding...thats it.

Enormously??? :oldlol:

Are you kidding me? Prime Shaq made a huge presence on the defensive end, particularly in 2000. Not only with his rebounding, but his shot blocking and him clogging the paint.

And Kobe from 1998-2004, and 2008 was not overrated on the defensive end. In those years I mentioned, (except for 1998), he was a top 2-5 perimeter defender in the league.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's ridiculous if anyone Kobe homer think that Kobe is close to MJ.Because he isn't.
Kobe can win 8 rings and still far away to be considered Top-3 ever.
Hell Russell has 11 rings and 5 MVP's and he isn't considered GOAT by many people...

That is the point. Being the public's GOAT is not about resumes. If it were Russell or Kareem would be at the top of every list with Jordan and Wilt lagging a bit behind in the next group.

11 rings, 5 MVP's (against prime Wilt with Oscar, West, and Baylor there to boot..), and who knows how many DPOY's had the award existed back then. That>6 rings, 5 MVP's. 11>>>6. 5=5.

Kareem? 6>5. 6=6. 38,000>whatever Jordan finished with. 10 NBA finals>6. 14 conference finals>8.


like mentioned before with Kareem he won half his titles with a player that was the best or 2nd best player in the league and that was better than he was and won 2 of his titles essentially as a role player.

There are legitimate arguments to diminish Kareem vis-a-vis Jordan but they are not dispositive facts. Similar nitpicking can be done with Jordan. For instance, Jordan had a whopping 5 losing seasons--perhaps more than any top 50 of all-time player.


Um, what's starting? Kobe's been compared to MJ since he was 18.

The difference is he is starting to be compared to MJ as an equal...

[Harison]

I have no doubt that all competitive superstars are motivated (Jordan himself was inventing enemies so he could defeat them :oldlol:), whether its Jordan for Kobe is another question.

In the end, it doesnt matter by what Kobe is motivated, fact is - he is a killer, another fact - he wont surpass Jordan either. Lets leave it at that, ESPN just creating story out of nothing, probably got tired of covering Heat 24/7 :oldlol:

[AirJordan&Magic]

I have no doubt that all competitive superstars are motivated (Jordan himself was inventing enemies so he could defeat them :oldlol:), whether its Jordan for Kobe is another question.

In the end, it doesnt matter by what Kobe is motivated, fact is - he is a killer, another fact - he wont surpass Jordan either. Lets leave it at that, ESPN just creating story out of nothing, probably got tired of covering Heat 24/7 :oldlol:

:oldlol: Pretty much

[LA_Showtime]

i actually buy what kobe's selling. it doesn't sound ridiculous. it doesn't sound retarded, like saying he watched magic growing up and molded his game after him.

[Ne 1]

I think you just don't like the dude for what ever reason. OK...that is cool everybody has different opinions on people etc. But I disagree with you when you say Kobe's drive to win is all media hype?

Come on...the dudes work ethics are far beyond any player in the NBA. After winning a title he is taking noted offseason from The Dream on his post game...WHO DOES THAT? During the Olympics Kobe studies film on unknown players from other countries he has to defend. That set the tone for the team right there....not LeBron clowning around being "friends" with everyone.

So if you don't like him for whatever reason...that you.
But at this point in time...you got to respect his game straight up.
And if Jordan fans would take those hater glasses off....you will see and respect Kobe for the same reason you respect Jordan.

For real...been watching this game for a long time.
And if any of you hate Kobe for trying to be like Jordan...again...what is wrong with that? Jordan is only the greatest player ever all players should aspire to be like him.




Great post.


A lot of these Kobe haters are just a bunch of jealous hypocrites. They say they hate Kobe because he "wants to be like Mike" when they all idolized Jordan growing up and wanting to be like him. Everyone wanted to be the "next Jordan" but Kobe was the only player who put in the work. Most of these haters are just mad that Kobe is what they wanted to be, what everyone dreamed of being who grew up in the 90s. Also funny how these jealous haters criticize Kobe for pattering his game after Jordan when MJ patterned his game after Dr. J and David Thompson.

[ginobli2311]

I think you just don't like the dude for what ever reason. OK...that is cool everybody has different opinions on people etc. But I disagree with you when you say Kobe's drive to win is all media hype?

Come on...the dudes work ethics are far beyond any player in the NBA. After winning a title he is taking noted offseason from The Dream on his post game...WHO DOES THAT? During the Olympics Kobe studies film on unknown players from other countries he has to defend. That set the tone for the team right there....not LeBron clowning around being "friends" with everyone.

So if you don't like him for whatever reason...that you.
But at this point in time...you got to respect his game straight up.
And if Jordan fans would take those hater glasses off....you will see and respect Kobe for the same reason you respect Jordan.

For real...been watching this game for a long time.
And if any of you hate Kobe for trying to be like Jordan...again...what is wrong with that? Jordan is only the greatest player ever all players should aspire to be like him.


i agree with almost all of that. but where wask kobe's drive and killer instinct when his team was up 3-1 against the suns? where was it when he quit on his team in the 2nd half of game 7? where was it in the 04 finals? kobe clearly refused to play team ball and froze shaq out and took the most absurd shots i've ever seen. what about 08? where was his leadership when his team needed him in the finals? losing by 40 in game 6 as the favorite coming in?

i'm not saying kobe doesn't have a great work ethic. he clearly does. but i'm sick of the comparisons because mj would never have let paul pierce outplay him in the nba finals. it simply never would have happened at the same stage of their respective careers. what is kobe's excuse for that? he had a great team around him. the best coach ever. he got to the finals and was not even one of the 2 best players in the series.

i always go back to this. imagine if jordan had lost the 92 finals and drexler had outplayed him and won finals mvp. we would think drastically different about jordan. drastically. with kobe. he's melted down in the playoffs like 4 or 5 times in his career.

i don't love kobe for all of those reasons. and people who love kobe just ignore the truth. why is kobe so bad in crunch time in the playoffs over the last 4 years? why does he continue to miss badly on every game winning shot attempt? why does he struggle so much in the nba finals for his career? why does he refuse to make the right basketball play so often this late in his career?

you people do realize that you are trying to compare jordan to the 9 greatest players ever. of course his flaws are going to come up. its not hating....its just truth telling.

you want us to annoit him as the 2nd GOAT when he's a career 45% shooter and 25 ppg scoreer. he's had subpar finals performances for an all time elite. he's had many meltdowns throughout his career.

serious question. how much better is kobe than paul pierce? i'm not saying pierce is better, but really...how much better has kobe been?

[LA_Showtime]

ginobili is once again making himself look like an ass, although he does have a few good points jumbled in with all that garbage. maybe you should take another hiatus.

[guy]

The difference is he is starting to be compared to MJ as an equal...

They've been doing that since like 2006. This isn't something new AT ALL. They've also been doing this for Lebron in the past few years as well. Its the media being the media. Doesn't mean there is a good argument for it.

[laronprofit9]

Im sure he has some motivation from Michael Jordan, but honestly what Player in the league doesnt?

Almost everyone in the game today, regards Jordan as the greatest ever. So of course, they are going to use him as a measuring stick when comparing their own success to his, in some ways or others.

Im Sure Lebron is motivated by Jordan, same with Wade, probably same with Durant. A lot of these guys grew up watching him play, and have images in their mind aspiring to be great like him.

So yes, these guys have some motivation in chasing the same success Jordan had, but that is not the only thing that drives them. There are a lot of other factors included that drive these guys as well.

So yes, Jordan is a factor for being a motivator, but a lot of other things as well.

This applies to Kobe the same.

[guy]

i actually buy what kobe's selling. it doesn't sound ridiculous. it doesn't sound retarded, like saying he watched magic growing up and molded his game after him.

Are you kidding me?

[branslowski]

Ginobli...I was agreeing with you until you got o the Pierce thing...:facepalm


Kobe is Top 10 All-Time...FACT.

Pierce isn't even top 30.


Compared to Jordan, Kobe's resume falls way short.....But at the same time, so does most.

Jordan is better than everyone...That's why he's the GOAT.

[LA_Showtime]

Are you kidding me?

what?

[branslowski]

what?

Prob talking about Kobe saying that....Not you.

[glidedrxlr22]

i agree with almost all of that. but where wask kobe's drive and killer instinct when his team was up 3-1 against the suns? where was it when he quit on his team in the 2nd half of game 7? where was it in the 04 finals? kobe clearly refused to play team ball and froze shaq out and took the most absurd shots i've ever seen. what about 08? where was his leadership when his team needed him in the finals? losing by 40 in game 6 as the favorite coming in?

i'm not saying kobe doesn't have a great work ethic. he clearly does. but i'm sick of the comparisons because mj would never have let paul pierce outplay him in the nba finals. it simply never would have happened at the same stage of their respective careers. what is kobe's excuse for that? he had a great team around him. the best coach ever. he got to the finals and was not even one of the 2 best players in the series.

i always go back to this. imagine if jordan had lost the 92 finals and drexler had outplayed him and won finals mvp. we would think drastically different about jordan. drastically. with kobe. he's melted down in the playoffs like 4 or 5 times in his career.

i don't love kobe for all of those reasons. and people who love kobe just ignore the truth. why is kobe so bad in crunch time in the playoffs over the last 4 years? why does he continue to miss badly on every game winning shot attempt? why does he struggle so much in the nba finals for his career? why does he refuse to make the right basketball play so often this late in his career?

you people do realize that you are trying to compare jordan to the 9 greatest players ever. of course his flaws are going to come up. its not hating....its just truth telling.

you want us to annoit him as the 2nd GOAT when he's a career 45% shooter and 25 ppg scoreer. he's had subpar finals performances for an all time elite. he's had many meltdowns throughout his career.

serious question. how much better is kobe than paul pierce? i'm not saying pierce is better, but really...how much better has kobe been?

Great f****in post. :applause: Kobe fanatics unfortunately only see this as jealousy and hate. You're bringing the sledge-hammer!

[ginobli2311]

ginobili is once again making himself look like an ass, although he does have a few good points jumbled in with all that garbage. maybe you should take another hiatus.

you people attack me because you know i'm right. you know if someone held a gun to your head and said they would know if you were lying and they asked you:

you can pick shaq or kobe or duncan for the best 12 years of their careers. who do you take first? you would all answer duncan or shaq.

so my point is why don't we see duncan being compared to jordan. its simply because kobe plays the same position and is one of the best guards ever. but just leave it at that. kobe is the third best player of his generation. he's never even been the unquestioned best player in the nba one time in his career. LOL.

like i said. you all know i'm right. you can't debate me at all....so you call me names and neg rep me. its the sign of defeat. owned.

[LA_Showtime]

you people attack me because you know i'm right. you know if someone held a gun to your head and said they would know if you were lying and they asked you:

you can pick shaq or kobe or duncan for the best 12 years of their careers. who do you take first? you would all answer duncan or shaq.

so my point is why don't we see duncan being compared to jordan. its simply because kobe plays the same position and is one of the best guards ever. but just leave it at that. kobe is the third best player of his generation. he's never even been the unquestioned best player in the nba one time in his career. LOL.

like i said. you all know i'm right. you can't debate me at all....so you call me names and neg rep me. its the sign of defeat. owned.

I would pick Shaq first. My second choice would be either Kobe or KG, depending on who I have as my second option.

[LA_Showtime]

you people attack me because you know i'm right. you know if someone held a gun to your head and said they would know if you were lying and they asked you:

you can pick shaq or kobe or duncan for the best 12 years of their careers. who do you take first? you would all answer duncan or shaq.

so my point is why don't we see duncan being compared to jordan. its simply because kobe plays the same position and is one of the best guards ever. but just leave it at that. kobe is the third best player of his generation. he's never even been the unquestioned best player in the nba one time in his career. LOL.

like i said. you all know i'm right. you can't debate me at all....so you call me names and neg rep me. its the sign of defeat. owned.

And why wouldn't you compare him to Jordan you moron? He might not be in the same tier as Jordan, but he's a SG who has played for Phil Jackson who just happens to be 1 ring away from winning six. Oh yeah, his game is also eerily similar to Michael's. Should we be comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain instead? Answer me this: why does comparing one player to another mean one player is equal to another? If you're going to be all pissy about it then send your retarded rants to the idiots who write the articles.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli...I was agreeing with you until you got o the Pierce thing...:facepalm


Kobe is Top 10 All-Time...FACT.

Pierce isn't even top 30.


Compared to Jordan, Kobe's resume falls way short.....But at the same time, so does most.

Jordan is better than everyone...That's why he's the GOAT.

you misunderstand. i'm not saying pierce is in kobe's class. certainly not when you talk about resume/career.

but when you boil down level of play and impact. how much better has kobe really been? is the difference between kobe and pierce bigger than kobe and mj?

how so. pierce puts up very similar career numbers and has proven himself to be a great playoff performer just like kobe. kobe is a better scorer and defender. pierce is a better rebounder and a much better teammate and team player.

so much of kobe's "in the top ten....FACT" is based on circumstances. that is why i almost prefer we strip away titles when we debate because they are so over-rated and over-valued on this forum when ranking players. especially when it comes to kobe.

for some reason people can use logic with other players. its why most consider dirk to be better than gasol. but if it was kobe in gasol's place. all we would ever hear is "2 rings to 0" over and over and over again.

[branslowski]

Great f****in post. :applause: Kobe fanatics unfortunately only see this as jealousy and hate. You're bringing the sledge-hammer!

Compared to Jordan....It isn't hate.


Kobe also has more career playoff game-winners than every active player. (4)

Kobe has dominated playoffs....Came up short in 3 Finals offensively....He failed before....No one is saying Kobe is perfect...I know I never say Kobe has been perfect...

Hate/Jealousy comes from certain posters who reach and bash Kobe at every chance they get...Spread agendas just to try and tear Kobe down...All in all, it doesn't matter. We have a good indication on who the trolls are anyway.

[che guevara]

Usually ginobli just trolls threads, but that actually was a pretty good post minus the bit about Pierce. Kobe played better than Pierce IMO, I thought KG was easily the best player in the series.

[ginobli2311]

And why wouldn't you compare him to Jordan you moron? He might not be in the same tier as Jordan, but he's a SG who has played for Phil Jackson who just happens to be 1 ring away from winning six. Oh yeah, his game is also eerily similar to Michael's. Should we be comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain instead? Answer me this: why does comparing one player to another mean one player is equal to another? If you're going to be all pissy about it then send your retarded rants to the idiots who write the articles.

again. you misunderstand. comparing them is fine. but many many people on here have been putting kobe very close to jordan. and i think that is absurd. i have no problem with looking at their games and seeing many similarities. that is obvious.

put it this way. what do you think would happen if i started a "paul pierce vs kobe" thread.

it would be laughed at non stop. when in reality....paul pierce is closer to kobe than kobe is to jordan in terms of level of play and impact.

thats my point. and again....you know i'm right.

[Harison]

Kobe is Top 10 All-Time...FACT.

Pierce isn't even top 30.

Thats a fact. There is a minor issue though - teams they played with. Swap Pierce and Kobe teams, and their resumes would be dramatically different. I'm not saying Pierce would be better than Kobe, but this comparison wouldnt be absurd anymore. As it stands now, you are totally right, Kobe is Top10, and Pierce hardly Top30.

[laronprofit9]

Kobe is motivated by Jordan, just like many other players in the league right now.

But there is "A LOT" more to it than just that. Kobe is playing for his status as an NBA Legend, not just being compared to Jordan.

He is trying to be remembered as one of the greatest to ever play the game. He's playing for his legacy right now.

Michael Jordan is a motivating factor, yes. But a lot of other all-time greats are motivating factors as well.

I think Kobe knows in the back of his mind he won't be better than Jordan, but he still cares a lot about his legacy and is trying to go up as high as he can up the all-time great ranks. If for one thing to be remembered.

[ginobli2311]

Usually ginobli just trolls threads, but that actually was a pretty good post minus the bit about Pierce. Kobe played better than Pierce IMO, I thought KG was easily the best player in the series.

i agree that kg was the best player. but nobody cares about defense..so i don't bother.

sorry though. paul pierce was better than kobe in that series. barely...but he was better.

and forget all that. we are supposed to rank kobe in the top ten ever and he struggles to outduel paul pierce. its LOL. that is the difference between jordan and kobe. jordan was head and shoulders above the competition. kobe has never been head and shoulders above any of the elite perimeter players in the league.....let alone guys like duncan/kg/shaq.

[ginobli2311]

Thats a fact. There is a minor issue though - teams they played with. Swap Pierce and Kobe teams, and their resumes would be dramatically different. I'm not saying Pierce would be better than Kobe, but this comparison wouldnt be absurd anymore. As it stands now, you are totally right, Kobe is Top10, and Pierce hardly Top30.

you just made my exact point for me. this whole resume thing is out of control. too dependent on circumstances and team strength.

i think kobe is better than pierce. i don't care if paul pierce had won 8 titles. i have seen them both play for over a decade now. and kobe is better. but if paul pierce had his current numbers and had 8 titles and kobe only had 1. pierce would be considered the better player.

titles are just a huge huge huge part of kobe's ranking. that is my point.

[LA_Showtime]

i agree with almost all of that. but where wask kobe's drive and killer instinct when his team was up 3-1 against the suns? where was it when he quit on his team in the 2nd half of game 7? where was it in the 04 finals? kobe clearly refused to play team ball and froze shaq out and took the most absurd shots i've ever seen. what about 08? where was his leadership when his team needed him in the finals? losing by 40 in game 6 as the favorite coming in?

i'm not saying kobe doesn't have a great work ethic. he clearly does. but i'm sick of the comparisons because mj would never have let paul pierce outplay him in the nba finals. it simply never would have happened at the same stage of their respective careers. what is kobe's excuse for that? he had a great team around him. the best coach ever. he got to the finals and was not even one of the 2 best players in the series.

i always go back to this. imagine if jordan had lost the 92 finals and drexler had outplayed him and won finals mvp. we would think drastically different about jordan. drastically. with kobe. he's melted down in the playoffs like 4 or 5 times in his career.

i don't love kobe for all of those reasons. and people who love kobe just ignore the truth. why is kobe so bad in crunch time in the playoffs over the last 4 years? why does he continue to miss badly on every game winning shot attempt? why does he struggle so much in the nba finals for his career? why does he refuse to make the right basketball play so often this late in his career?

you people do realize that you are trying to compare jordan to the 9 greatest players ever. of course his flaws are going to come up. its not hating....its just truth telling.

you want us to annoit him as the 2nd GOAT when he's a career 45% shooter and 25 ppg scoreer. he's had subpar finals performances for an all time elite. he's had many meltdowns throughout his career.

serious question. how much better is kobe than paul pierce? i'm not saying pierce is better, but really...how much better has kobe been?

1) Personally, I don't think Kobe is telling the truth. He's definitely improved his on-the-court leadership, but until this year he was still yelling at guys, making them uncomfortable, cursing, etc... Quite honestly, I don't see much of a difference between 05-06 Kobe and 09-10 Kobe. His comments do back up this year's play, though.

2) He was hardly outplayed by Pierce. He had better numbers. He also had an inexperienced team that was facing three hall of fame players. It will definitely hurt his legacy for generally performing below-par in the Finals, but that shouldn't stop comparisons to Michael; like it or not, their games are eerily similar.

3) Would we? I doubt it. Jordan had plenty of "WTF" moments in his career and yet people still look at him as the GOAT. Winning cures everything; it's the perfect drug to make people forget your past.

4) We "love" Kobe because he's a Laker. We defend him because you morons like to spend your free time bitching about his accomplishments, haircut, style of play, fashion sense, etc. A bunch of people have called out Kobe for not passing the basketball. Go to Laker threads. Laker fans routinely get flamed by Kobe homers all the time. You're just too stupid to realize it.

Answer my question: Why are you so obsessed with downplaying Kobe's achievements? Do you honestly care that much?

My Advice: Get over it. You sound like an idiot.

5) AGAIN, comparing two players is not the same thing as saying one player is better than the other.

[branslowski]

you misunderstand. i'm not saying pierce is in kobe's class. certainly not when you talk about resume/career.

but when you boil down level of play and impact. how much better has kobe really been? is the difference between kobe and pierce bigger than kobe and mj?

how so. pierce puts up very similar career numbers and has proven himself to be a great playoff performer just like kobe. kobe is a better scorer and defender. pierce is a better rebounder and a much better teammate and team player.

so much of kobe's "in the top ten....FACT" is based on circumstances. that is why i almost prefer we strip away titles when we debate because they are so over-rated and over-valued on this forum when ranking players. especially when it comes to kobe.

for some reason people can use logic with other players. its why most consider dirk to be better than gasol. but if it was kobe in gasol's place. all we would ever hear is "2 rings to 0" over and over and over again.

OK man....I'm not going to jump into this Pierce thing....Besides the Rings, Kobe still blows Pierce out of the water in multiple All-Time areas...It really isn't close...All-NBA's, All-Defensive, Career points, career playoff points, exc...lol@ better teamate, as if we are in the locker rooms....But watever...Not getting into this PP thing...Worthless there.

And ppl mostly use titles because you play this game to win...And, Kobe has 2 Finals MVP's...And as the leader/Man...(without Shaq) he is avg 30ppg 5reb 5ast 46%fg...Along with leading his team to 3 straight Finals app.....Thats why ppl INCLUDE rings in disscusions...But then, we notice that haters of players with no rings or 1 ring tends to pull the "Robert Horry" card...So why even bother to go futher?...We want to throw away a factor that is most iportant to the game of Basketball and imprniting in a players career?....Why would I want to back a career loser who puts up stats and no rings?....

If Kobe only cared about his stats....He would have continued to play on our shitty team with Kwame and company for years, just to break more records and have about 6 more seasons over 32ppg....Prob up his ppg avg for career to near 27...Prob have way more 50pt games than Jordan, would be stats wise one of the greatest....But at the end of the day? To me, would be my fav player, but not in top 10 because I would consider him a stat player who didn't go after it hard enough to win tiitles..

[LA_Showtime]

again. you misunderstand. comparing them is fine. but many many people on here have been putting kobe very close to jordan. and i think that is absurd. i have no problem with looking at their games and seeing many similarities. that is obvious.

put it this way. what do you think would happen if i started a "paul pierce vs kobe" thread.

it would be laughed at non stop. when in reality....paul pierce is closer to kobe than kobe is to jordan in terms of level of play and impact.

thats my point. and again....you know i'm right.

No, you're not. Look at Kobe's resume, and then compare it to Pierce's. Look at how many times Kobe has been on winning teams, and compare it to Pierce. Look at their Olympic resumes. Who has constantly been in the discussion for the best player in the NBA? Who has not? And you're seriously talking about career numbers... really? Kobe came out of high school. Chop off the first year or two and his numbers go up.

[branslowski]

I just noticed that you said Pierce played better than obe in that 08' Finals...:oldlol:


F*ck outta here...I'm gone before I get sucked into a troll swirl.

[ginobli2311]

1) Personally, I don't think Kobe is telling the truth. He's definitely improved his on-the-court leadership, but until this year he was still yelling at guys, making them uncomfortable, cursing, etc... Quite honestly, I don't see much of a difference between 05-06 Kobe and 09-10 Kobe. His comments do back up this year's play, though.

2) He was hardly outplayed by Pierce. He had better numbers. He also had an inexperienced team that was facing three hall of fame players. It will definitely hurt his legacy for generally performing below-par in the Finals, but that shouldn't stop comparisons to Michael; like it or not, their games are eerily similar.

3) Would we? I doubt it. Jordan had plenty of "WTF" moments in his career and yet people still look at him as the GOAT. Winning cures everything; it's the perfect drug to make people forget your past.

4) We "love" Kobe because he's a Laker. We defend him because you morons like to spend your free time bitching about his accomplishments, haircut, style of play, fashion sense, etc. A bunch of people have called out Kobe for not passing the basketball. Go to Laker threads. Laker fans get flamed by Kobe homers all the time. You're just too stupid to realize it.

Answer my question: Why are you so obsessed with downplaying Kobe's achievements? Do you honestly care that much?

My Advice: Get over it. You sound like an idiot.

5) AGAIN, comparing two players is not the same thing as saying one player is better than the other.

me?

why do you people care so much to prop up kobe and downplay his faults?

we are both on a message board to discuss basketball. you lose the argument so now you call me a moron and attack me for being a "loser" on a basketball board. nice.

comparing is different. i totally agree. as i already said above. but that is not what most people do. most people create mj vs kobe threads. i simply don't think its worth talking about. just as i don't think talking about pierce vs kobe threads are worth anything either.

its the same thing to me. all are great players. but its painfully obvious to anyone watching that kobe is a better player than pierce. just like its even more painfully obvious that jordan and around 8 other players all time are better than kobe.

owned. now here comes more name calling. waive that white flag.

[ginobli2311]

No, you're not. Look at Kobe's resume, and then compare it to Pierce's. Look at how many times Kobe has been on winning teams, and compare it to Pierce. Look at their Olympic resumes. Who has constantly been in the discussion for the best player in the NBA? Who has not? And you're seriously talking about career numbers... really? Kobe came out of high school. Chop off the first year or two and his numbers go up.

stop going only to ****ing resume. thats all you people do. resume resume resume.

in two years....gasol's RESUME is going to blow kg's and dirk's out of the ****ing water.

is gasol better?

talk in terms of level of play. forget resume. you guys still don't get it.

[LA_Showtime]

me?

why do you people care so much to prop up kobe and downplay his faults?

we are both on a message board to discuss basketball. you lose the argument so now you call me a moron and attack me for being a "loser" on a basketball board. nice.

comparing is different. i totally agree. as i already said above. but that is not what most people do. most people create mj vs kobe threads. i simply don't think its worth talking about. just as i don't think talking about pierce vs kobe threads are worth anything either.

its the same thing to me. all are great players. but its painfully obvious to anyone watching that kobe is a better player than pierce. just like its even more painfully obvious that jordan and around 8 other players all time are better than kobe.

owned. now here comes more name calling. waive that white flag.

I have no idea why people care to prop up Kobe. I'm not one of them. I probably wouldn't even like the guy if he wasn't a Laker.

Since when has ANYONE said Kobe > Jordan? There's like two or three people who think that on ISH. The idea that there are a bunch of crazy Kobe fanatics calling for Michael's supremacy to the throne is a myth. :oldlol:

And you're not owning anybody, so you can stop saying it.

[LA_Showtime]

stop going only to ****ing resume. thats all you people do. resume resume resume.

in two years....gasol's RESUME is going to blow kg's and dirk's out of the ****ing water.

is gasol better?

talk in terms of level of play. forget resume. you guys still don't get it.

I wouldn't throw out the resume line but since you think they're somewhat close you obviously need help. I could just say watch the game and don't be stupid but that wouldn't help you now would it?

[eliteballer]

How can you title this thread that when the last line of the article is him saying


"If I need motivation to say I wanted to get six because I wanted to have the same as Michael, to me, that's weak."

ISHiot.

[ginobli2311]

I wouldn't throw out the resume line but since you think they're somewhat close you obviously need help. I could just say watch the game and don't be stupid but that wouldn't help you now would it?

lol. did i not already say that i think paul pierce is not as good as kobe. already said that. in fact, i just posted that i don't think its terribly close. that is my point.

you people seem to not understand. when jordan/kobe comes up or when kobe vs. bird/shaq/duncan

i could simply say...."watch the game and don't be stupid"

do you see my point? for some reason people are obsessed with hyping up kobe and trying to make him much better than he actually was/is. i just don't get it. if kobe had earned this...i would give it to him. but if you actually have watched him play. you know he's the impact player that duncan or shaq were. its just a fact....as much of a fact or more as your "kobe is top ten....fact"

but for some reason....kobe fans are crazy. and they call me a hater for ranking him 10th best all time. lol...i'm a hater because i think kobe's the tenth best player all time.

think about that for a second. its beyond absurd.

[macpierce]

holy shit youre comparing pierce to kobe, even with or without championships in the words of JEFF VAN GUNDY
"When you're comparing two players, you're degrading one of them"
pierce is good but no where near kobe period

[LA_Showtime]

lol. did i not already say that i think paul pierce is not as good as kobe. already said that. in fact, i just posted that i don't think its terribly close. that is my point.

you people seem to not understand. when jordan/kobe comes up or when kobe vs. bird/shaq/duncan

i could simply say...."watch the game and don't be stupid"

do you see my point? for some reason people are obsessed with hyping up kobe and trying to make him much better than he actually was/is. i just don't get it. if kobe had earned this...i would give it to him. but if you actually have watched him play. you know he's the impact player that duncan or shaq were. its just a fact....as much of a fact or more as your "kobe is top ten....fact"

but for some reason....kobe fans are crazy. and they call me a hater for ranking him 10th best all time. lol...i'm a hater because i think kobe's the tenth best player all time.

think about that for a second. its beyond absurd.

I don't think you're a hater. I think you're Bruce, which helps to explain why you come off as a creep.

[branslowski]

lol. did i not already say that i think paul pierce is not as good as kobe. already said that. in fact, i just posted that i don't think its terribly close. that is my point.

you people seem to not understand. when jordan/kobe comes up or when kobe vs. bird/shaq/duncan

i could simply say...."watch the game and don't be stupid"

do you see my point? for some reason people are obsessed with hyping up kobe and trying to make him much better than he actually was/is. i just don't get it. if kobe had earned this...i would give it to him. but if you actually have watched him play. you know he's the impact player that duncan or shaq were. its just a fact....as much of a fact or more as your "kobe is top ten....fact"

but for some reason....kobe fans are crazy. and they call me a hater for ranking him 10th best all time. lol...i'm a hater because i think kobe's the tenth best player all time.

think about that for a second. its beyond absurd.

Umm...No one calls you a hater for ranking him 10th....I had him ranked 11th a little while ago....Please stop making up reason why ppl call you a hater....

[ginobli2311]

holy shit youre comparing pierce to kobe, even with or without championships in the words of JEFF VAN GUNDY
"When you're comparing two players, you're degrading one of them"
pierce is good but no where near kobe period

and again. this is my point. i love this.

i could say the same thing about comparing kobe to shaq/duncan/jordan.

its the exact same thing. its laughable. i just love this. you prove my point for me. i'm LOL for comparing pierce to kobe.

but its reasonable to compare kobe to duncan? hahahahahhahahah. kobe to duncan? hahahahaha. its a joke.

[chazzy]

Didn't you have him ranked 16th before everyone set you straight? All you did was talk about his failures and not why those other 5 players were better.. until you realized it was hard to make the case for those players. You also claimed Kobe made Ariza a worse player because he "taught him how to chuck." Nuff said. No one gives you shit for ranking him 10th, it's when you hijack every thread with hard-to-read blocks of text diminishing his accomplishments and magnifying his failures.

[branslowski]

and again. this is my point. i love this.

i could say the same thing about comparing kobe to shaq/duncan/jordan.

its the exact same thing. its laughable. i just love this. you prove my point for me. i'm LOL for comparing pierce to kobe.

but its reasonable to compare kobe to duncan? hahahahahhahahah. kobe to duncan? hahahahaha. its a joke.

notsureifserious...

[ginobli2311]

Didn't you have him ranked 16th before everyone set you straight? All you did was talk about his failures and not why those other 5 players were better.. until you realized it was hard to make the case for those players. You also claimed Kobe made Ariza a worse player because he "taught him how to chuck." Nuff said. No one gives you shit for ranking him only 10th, it's when you hijack every thread with hard-to-read blocks of text diminishing his accomplishments and magnifying his failures.

i've never ranked kobe worse than 12th unless is was joking.

[branslowski]

Didn't you have him ranked 16th before everyone set you straight? All you did was talk about his failures and not why those other 5 players were better.. until you realized it was hard to make the case for those players. You also claimed Kobe made Ariza a worse player because he "taught him how to chuck." Nuff said. No one gives you shit for ranking him only 10th, it's when you hijack every thread with hard-to-read blocks of text diminishing his accomplishments and magnifying his failures.

Exactly....If I go make a Kobe thread right now talking about his game-winners, I'm sure Ginobli (a poster who has nothing to do with Lakers) will come in it and talk about every shot he missed, then follow it up with "I'm just speaking truth", along with reasons why Kobe is overrated.

Obsessed.

[Fatal9]

but its reasonable to compare kobe to duncan? hahahahahhahahah. kobe to duncan? hahahahaha. its a joke.
Do you know what's happened most of the time when Kobe and Duncan's teams have gone head to head? Hasn't been good for Timmy. Kobe's outplayed him 4 out of 5 times, often times destroying the Spurs (see '01, '02, '08). If there was a player who outplayed Kobe over and over again, beat his team over and over again in the playoffs, they would never be ranked above Kobe.

[ginobli2311]

notsureifserious...

again. if is laughable to compare pierce and kobe.

its laughable to compare duncan and kobe.

duncan is an elite two way player that is one of the best rebounders ever. he give you top ten defense of all time and excellent rebounding. he's a great team player/teammate and gives you only 3 less points per game on higher effeciency.

he's proven he can win without uber elite teams around him.

how can kobe stand up to any of that? kobe can't win without a truly elite supporting cast and duncan has never derailed teams for his own personal agendas. duncan has been a much better performer in the finals and playoffs as well.

duncan has played with far less talent and has never missed the playoffs in his entire career i think.

again...how does kobe stand up to this?

[ginobli2311]

Do you know what's happened most of the time when Kobe and Duncan's teams have gone head to head? Hasn't been good for Timmy. Kobe's outplayed him 4 out of 5 times, often times destroying the Spurs (see '01, '02, '08). If there was a player who outplayed Kobe over and over again, beat his team over and over again in the playoffs, they would never be ranked above Kobe.

just might have something to do with shaq. just a thought. LOL. give duncan a dwayne wade or lebron james for 8 years and see how many titles he would have won.

any wade/lebron don't even come close to how good/dominant shaq was.

[branslowski]

again. if is laughable to compare pierce and kobe.

its laughable to compare duncan and kobe.

duncan is an elite two way player that is one of the best rebounders ever. he give you top ten defense of all time and excellent rebounding. he's a great team player/teammate and gives you only 3 less points per game on higher effeciency.

he's proven he can win without uber elite teams around him.

how can kobe stand up to any of that? kobe can't win without a truly elite supporting cast and duncan has never derailed teams for his own personal agendas. duncan has been a much better performer in the finals and playoffs as well.

duncan has played with far less talent and has never missed the playoffs in his entire career i think.

again...how does kobe stand up to this?
I have Duncan above Kobe.

But to say this comparison is a joke is really really stupid bro...I mean, it really could go either way...Especially when you add the Fact that going head to head Kobe has completely killed Duncan and his Defensive orientated teams throughout their careers...Another Ring/Finals MVP by Kobe, along with more All-Time stats and Accolades and Kobe>>Duncan....

Are you really saying Kobe vs Pierce= Kobe vs Duncan?....Are you being this stupid on purpose?...I mean, I'm not asking you this as if your a retarded Kob hater right now, I'm asking you this because I'm starting to think you've gained access to the Web from a Mentally Disabled Hospital....Are you playing or are you really this dumb? Or is your hater shades blocking your judgement?

Holyshit....:facepalm

[chazzy]

i've never ranked kobe worse than 12th unless is was joking.
Googled it for ya
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4351284&postcount=47

[branslowski]

Googled it for ya
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4351284&postcount=47

:facepalm

Edit: Ib4 he say' "Around 15" wasa joke or it means it could be close to 11...

[macpierce]

some people argue just to argue even when they are wrong...........SIGH :cry:

[ginobli2311]

Googled it for ya
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4351284&postcount=47

i would think i was just messing with people.

[kingkong]

Duncan has never won back to back, never won without great teammates (and not just one guy like Shaq/Pau), and his numbers are about as good as Kobe's

[ginobli2311]

I have Duncan above Kobe.

But to say this comparison is a joke is really really stupid bro...I mean, it really could go either way...Especially when you add the Fact that going head to head Kobe has completely killed Duncan and his Defensive orientated teams throughout their careers...Another Ring/Finals MVP by Kobe, along with more All-Time stats and Accolades and Kobe>>Duncan....

Are you really saying Kobe vs Pierce= Kobe vs Duncan?....Are you being this stupid on purpose?...I mean, I'm not asking you this as if your a retarded Kob hater right now, I'm asking you this because I'm starting to think you've gained access to the Web from a Mentally Disabled Hospital....Are you playing or are you really this dumb? Or is your hater shades blocking your judgement?

Holyshit....:facepalm

head to head over their entire careers is LOL.

yes. the gap between kobe and duncan is about the same as the gap between kobe and pierce.

i'm not going to go into specifics. but the gap is about the same. i see no case for kobe over duncan and no case for pierce over kobe. just on impact and level of play.........

[branslowski]

i would think i was just messing with people.

:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Duncan has never won back to back, never won without great teammates (and not just one guy like Shaq/Pau), and his numbers are about as good as Kobe's

are you joking?

this is my point. the 03 spurs were supposed to be a rebuilding team. they had young parker/stephen jackson and a rookie manu.

they were a joke. yet they destroyed kobe/shaq in the playoffs. duncan's 03 title is up there with hakeem's 94 as the only titles won by a superstar without an elite 2nd option.

****ing morons. this is why you people are the worst. you revise history. its hilarious.

[chazzy]

i would think i was just messing with people.
No, you were very adamant about it and we had debates all May and June about this, how do you forget that? Then eventually you moved him up to 10th

[Mor'Fiyah]

just might have something to do with shaq. just a thought. LOL. give duncan a dwayne wade or lebron james for 8 years and see how many titles he would have won.

any wade/lebron don't even come close to how good/dominant shaq was.

But it was not Shaq who has been the scourge of the Spurs the last decade and then some. Its been Kobe and Greg Popovitch will tell you that Kobe is the player he feared...

[branslowski]

head to head over their entire careers is LOL.

yes. the gap between kobe and duncan is about the same as the gap between kobe and pierce.

i'm not going to go into specifics. but the gap is about the same. i see no case for kobe over duncan and no case for pierce over kobe. just on impact and level of play.........

OK man....I gotta take it for what it is with you...Your the only person who feels this way...You have your own opinion. Your stupid.

[Ken_Masters]

jordan was head and shoulders above the competition. kobe has never been head and shoulders above any of the elite perimeter players in the league.....let alone guys like duncan/kg/shaq.

Took the words right from my mouth. Just to expand on this. Kobe was never head and shoulders above prime Iverson or Tmac, and he is not head and shoulders above LeBron or Wade. He has always been slightly better than the guards i just mentioned, but never heads and shoulders better.

[ginobli2311]

No, you were very adamant about it and we had debates all May and June about this, how do you forget that? Then eventually you moved him up to 10th

i think i actually had him around 12th all time. seriously. i honestly don't think i've ever had kobe for real worse than 12th.

i have him at ten now after the title and thinking about it more. but oscar is still right there. so i have no problem leaving kobe at 11 if that makes you feel better.

[AirJordan&Magic]

lol. did i not already say that i think paul pierce is not as good as kobe. already said that. in fact, i just posted that i don't think its terribly close. that is my point.

you people seem to not understand. when jordan/kobe comes up or when kobe vs. bird/shaq/duncan

i could simply say...."watch the game and don't be stupid"

do you see my point? for some reason people are obsessed with hyping up kobe and trying to make him much better than he actually was/is. i just don't get it. if kobe had earned this...i would give it to him. but if you actually have watched him play. you know he's the impact player that duncan or shaq were. its just a fact....as much of a fact or more as your "kobe is top ten....fact"

but for some reason....kobe fans are crazy. and they call me a hater for ranking him 10th best all time. lol...i'm a hater because i think kobe's the tenth best player all time.

think about that for a second. its beyond absurd.

The reason you are called a hater because of your irrelevent rants about Kobe.
The constant bitching about people's opinion about him, the ridiculous comparisons (Kobe and Pierce, :wtf: ), the constant overhyping of his teammates, etc.

You are the Alphawolf of Kobe detractors.

[ginobli2311]

OK man....I gotta take it for what it is with you...Your the only person who feels this way...You have your own opinion. Your stupid.

so a guy that gives you 23/6/4 for his career and his proven to be a big time playoff performer and has outdueled kobe in the nba finals is far far worse than kobe.

lol.

but kobe. who gives you 3 more points per game on worse efficiency. much worse defense and rebounding. much worse team play. many more meltdowns and collapses. much worse nba finals peformances.....is somehow in the same league as duncan?

how? seriously...how?

its just one big joke. duncan's impact on the game is so much greater than kobe's. let me know when kobe leads a franchise to 11 straight 50 win seasons and to the playoffs every year of his career. let me know when duncan selfishly shoots his team out of an nba finals. let me know when duncan loses in the finals and is the third best player in the series.

let me know when kobe wins a title without an ultra elite supporting cast. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. let me know when duncan quits on his team in a game 7. let me know when pop call duncan uncoachable. lOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

[Mor'Fiyah]

head to head over their entire careers is LOL.

yes. the gap between kobe and duncan is about the same as the gap between kobe and pierce.

i'm not going to go into specifics. but the gap is about the same. i see no case for kobe over duncan and no case for pierce over kobe. just on impact and level of play.........

Wow. So the 90%+ of the population discussing Kobe as the greatest player of his era are all mentally retarded?

[branslowski]

The reason you are called a hater because of your irrelevent rants about Kobe.
The constant bitching about people's opinion about him, the ridiculous comparisons (Kobe and Pierce, :wtf: ), the constant overhyping of his teammates, etc.

You are the Alphawolf of Kobe detractors.

OMFG please don't bring up this idiot...He makes every Kobe fan look bad.


Although you make a good comparing point....He usually went on and on pointint out Jordan's flaws, aswell as jumping into every Jordan and turning it negative....He usually hyped Pippen and Grant up to Wilt Chamberlin/Magic Bird like status x3....:oldlol:

[branslowski]

so a guy that gives you 23/6/4 for his career and his proven to be a big time playoff performer and has outdueled kobe in the nba finals is far far worse than kobe.

lol.

but kobe. who gives you 3 more points per game on worse efficiency. much worse defense and rebounding. much worse team play. many more meltdowns and collapses. much worse nba finals peformances.....is somehow in the same league as duncan?

how? seriously...how?

Where you get all these "Much" worse things is lol's....



I mean seriously, you just don't get it....Your helpless.

[ginobli2311]

Where you get all these "Much" worse things is lol's....



I mean seriously, you just don't get it....Your helpless.

so kobe's defensive impact and rebounding is not MUCH worse than duncan's?

really....can't wait to hear this.

[Mor'Fiyah]

so a guy that gives you 23/6/4 for his career and his proven to be a big time playoff performer and has outdueled kobe in the nba finals is far far worse than kobe.

lol.

but kobe. who gives you 3 more points per game on worse efficiency. much worse defense and rebounding. much worse team play. many more meltdowns and collapses. much worse nba finals peformances.....is somehow in the same league as duncan?

how? seriously...how?

1. How has Pierce outdueled Kobe in a way that Duncan was never out-dueled by another player in a series?

2. We don't ignore the entire playoffs and then just concentrate on finals performances. There have been several seasons where Duncan was just awful in a playoff series to the point where the Spurs just did not make it to the finals (which is far worse than being awful in the finals if you ask me). Do we throw those out as well?

3. Do you personally like Kobe Bryant? Do you like his game? If you answer no to both questions is it not fair to question whether you can be objective about him?

[AirJordan&Magic]

OMFG please don't bring up this idiot...He makes every Kobe fan look bad.


Although you make a good comparing point....He usually went on and on pointint out Jordan's flaws, aswell as jumping into every Jordan and turning it negative....He usually hyped Pippen and Grant up to Wilt Chamberlin/Magic Bird like status x3....:oldlol:

:oldlol: My point exactly.

[Mor'Fiyah]

so kobe's defensive impact and rebounding is not MUCH worse than duncan's?

really....can't wait to hear this.

Its not. Defensive impact is extremely difficult to tally from stats alone. Defensive impact is also dependent on position of play. Kobe's rebounding numbers compare well to Duncan's when you compare his rebounding as a shooting guard to Duncan's rebounding as a center. Same thing goes for his defensive impact on the perimeter. Its why Kobe has a ton of 1st team all NBA defensive teams to rival Duncan's. Perimeter defense is harder to execute and harder to measure.

[branslowski]

Its not. Defensive impact is extremely difficult to tally from stats alone. Defensive impact is also dependent on position of play. Kobe's rebounding numbers compare well to Duncan's when you compare his rebounding as a shooting guard to Duncan's rebounding as a center. Same thing goes for his defensive impact on the perimeter. Its why Kobe has a ton of 1st team all NBA defensive teams to rival Duncan's. Perimeter defense is harder to execute and harder to measure.

Please don't post common sense, he won't understand it.

[branslowski]

Do you know what's happened most of the time when Kobe and Duncan's teams have gone head to head? Hasn't been good for Timmy. Kobe's outplayed him 4 out of 5 times, often times destroying the Spurs (see '01, '02, '08). If there was a player who outplayed Kobe over and over again, beat his team over and over again in the playoffs, they would never be ranked above Kobe.

Didn't even see this post...Exactly my point..:applause:

[ginobli2311]

1. How has Pierce outdueled Kobe in a way that Duncan was never out-dueled by another player in a series?

2. We don't ignore the entire playoffs and then just concentrate on finals performances. There have been several seasons where Duncan was just awful in a playoff series to the point where the Spurs just did not make it to the finals (which is far worse than being awful in the finals if you ask me). Do we throw those out as well?

3. Do you personally like Kobe Bryant? Do you like his game? If you answer no to both questions is it not fair to question whether you can be objective about him?

its all about context and logic.

i don't know kobe. so i feel nothing towards him personally. i love his game when he plays the right way. but he doesn't play that way enough in my opinion.

i'm not asking you to throw anything out. i'm asking you to use logic and context. are you really going to tell me that duncan has played with more talent than kobe? are you really going to tell me that?

are you really going to tell me that kobe's impact on a game is as big as duncan's? how so? kobe gives you barely more points and his defensive/rebounding impact isn't close. duncan has never had the on/off court problems kobe has had that have derailed teams.

duncan has had way more success given their circumstances. kobe simply can't carry a team to a title......let alone the finals like duncan could. and that is ok...not many players can. but duncan was so good that he could do that with an super elite team. kobe can't. its a huge difference in their level of play and impact.

if kobe had ever done something special or proven he could do that...i'd be give kobe a ton of credit. but the fact remains that kobe had chances and never did anything. now his team is so good around him that he can win titles without even playing well.

but nobody will admit that kobe was awful in this year's finals. that is why this is pointless. people on here claim he played well in game 7. lots of people. the dude was beyond bad. if his team was not super elite....they would have lost by 30....yet the somehow won with kobe jacking up 24 absurd shots and only making six.

[juju151111]

The Kobe and Duncan Gap isn't that far, but i prefer Kobe by a little.

[ginobli2311]

Didn't even see this post...Exactly my point..:applause:

you are going to rank them off head to head? that is the single dumbest thing i've ever seen. kobe was playing with shaq. my god. and the spurs still beat them a couple of times.

imagine if duncan had a top 8 player of all time at his side. it wouldn't even have been competitive.

yea....lets use head to head. that makes sense.

[ginobli2311]

Its not. Defensive impact is extremely difficult to tally from stats alone. Defensive impact is also dependent on position of play. Kobe's rebounding numbers compare well to Duncan's when you compare his rebounding as a shooting guard to Duncan's rebounding as a center. Same thing goes for his defensive impact on the perimeter. Its why Kobe has a ton of 1st team all NBA defensive teams to rival Duncan's. Perimeter defense is harder to execute and harder to measure.

totally agree. if only you weren't over-rating kobe's defense enormously. what you say is true with someone like payton/pippen/jordan. not kobe. kobe's defense is simply not on their levels at all.

[OldSchoolBBall]

That is the point. Being the public's GOAT is not about resumes. If it were Russell or Kareem would be at the top of every list with Jordan and Wilt lagging a bit behind in the next group.

Jordan's resume is AT LEAST equal to Kareem's and well beyond Wilt's. Get real.

[Fatal9]

**** me. typed out a long duncan/kobe post and my laptop shut off and its gone :banghead:

[branslowski]

you are going to rank them off head to head? that is the single dumbest thing i've ever seen. kobe was playing with shaq. my god. and the spurs still beat them a couple of times.

imagine if duncan had a top 8 player of all time at his side. it wouldn't even have been competitive.

yea....lets use head to head. that makes sense.

:facepalm It's not even just head to head dick face...It's just a factor that included when a complete moron actually say's "Kobe and Duncan aren't comparable".....Kobe has also beasted the Spurs without Shaq....(But I know, I know, your responce..."Ok, ok, well, well, it doesn't count again because he had...umm, Gasol, yeah, HA! So erase it. Kobe's play doesn't count since he had a good teamate! Owned I win"...:facepalm

[Willkill24]

:facepalm It's not even just head to head dick face...It's just a factor that included when a complete moron actually say's "Kobe and Duncan aren't comparable".....Kobe has also beasted the Spurs without Shaq....(But I know, I know, your responce..."Ok, ok, well, well, it doesn't count again because he had...umm, Gasol, yeah, HA! So erase it. Kobe's play doesn't count since he had a good teamate! Owned I win"...:facepalm
:oldlol:

[chazzy]

you are going to rank them off head to head? that is the single dumbest thing i've ever seen. kobe was playing with shaq. my god. and the spurs still beat them a couple of times.

imagine if duncan had a top 8 player of all time at his side. it wouldn't even have been competitive.

yea....lets use head to head. that makes sense.
You used it with your Pierce/Kobe comparison..

[ginobli2311]

:facepalm It's not even just head to head dick face...It's just a factor that included when a complete moron actually say's "Kobe and Duncan aren't comparable".....Kobe has also beasted the Spurs without Shaq....(But I know, I know, your responce..."Ok, ok, well, well, it doesn't count again because he had...umm, Gasol, yeah, HA! So erase it. Kobe's play doesn't count since he had a good teamate! Owned I win"...:facepalm

i never said anything like that. kobe was simply a better player than duncan in 08. just like he is now.

i don't know what that proves though for you.

look. we all know that you would choose duncan over kobe for the best 12 years of their careers. so thats really all their is to it. duncan is better. and i don't think comparing the two is laughable.

i said simply that " if comparing kobe and pierce is laughable....then comparing kobe and duncan is laughable"

and i stand by that.

[Ne 1]

Googled it for ya
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4351284&postcount=47.

:oldlol:

And he wonders why his opinions don't hold any weight.

No credibility at all with his hypothetical bull sh!t.

[ginobli2311]

You used it with your Pierce/Kobe comparison..

yes. but i did not soley go off that as a reason why they should be compared. there is a difference.

and again. i'm not saying pierce is better than kobe. many of you are saying kobe is better than duncan.

and i used the pierce thing more for the mj comparison.

and again. if duncan had been outplayed by the likes of another center in the nba finals and his team lost. i would hold that against him big time...regardless if they were guarding eachother or not.

just everyone. please answer me this. who would you take for the 12 best years of their career?

duncan or kobe?

kobe...if you count his 4th year and this year....has 12 years of being an elite player.

who do you take for their 12 best years?

[Ronaldinho]

Ginobli2311 is the other account of New York Knicks?

[branslowski]

i never said anything like that. kobe was simply a better player than duncan in 08. just like he is now.

i don't know what that proves though for you.

look. we all know that you would choose duncan over kobe for the best 12 years of their careers. so thats really all their is to it. duncan is better. and i don't think comparing the two is laughable.

i said simply that " if comparing kobe and pierce is laughable....then comparing kobe and duncan is laughable"

and i stand by that.

But what your not understanding tht PP vs Kobe is not the same gap as Kobe vs Duncan...Especially since Most of the Sports world has their top 3 players of the decade rotating between Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan...Shit most have Kobe at top....While Pierce isn't even found in those disscussions...

Pierce is never even considered as top player in the game while Duncan and Kobe are always...Matter fact, Kobe has been near the top just about the same if not more than Duncan in the past decade.....Kobe and Duncan are All-Time Legends while Pierce isn't....Yet you wanna say Kobe vs Pierce= Kobe vs Duncan?...:oldlol: ...C'mon dude....

[Mor'Fiyah]

its all about context and logic.

i don't know kobe. so i feel nothing towards him personally. i love his game when he plays the right way. but he doesn't play that way enough in my opinion.


You ducked the question: do you like Kobe's personality on the court? My guess would be that irrespective of on court skills, you don't like Kobe's percieved persona. Am I wrong? Answer the question.



i'm not asking you to throw anything out. i'm asking you to use logic and context. are you really going to tell me that duncan has played with more talent than kobe? are you really going to tell me that?


I never said anything about who played with more or less talent. Its really not relevant is it? Players don't control how much talent they eventually win with. It either happens or it does not. Kobe winning with more talent is not a determinant into whether or not he could win with less talent or the same amount of talent Duncan had. They are different players and impact the game in different ways.




are you really going to tell me that kobe's impact on a game is as big as duncan's? how so? kobe gives you barely more points and his defensive/rebounding impact isn't close. duncan has never had the on/off court problems kobe has had that have derailed teams.


Your problem again is that you keep trying to compare a shooting guards stats to a centers stats. They you compound your mistake by thinking these stats are a viable method of saying one player had more impact in a game than another when the game is MAYBE 5% stats. Kobe's stats are ELITE at the shooting guard level. His rebounds are ELITE. His assist numbers are ELITE. His ppg numbers are ELITE. Compared to other shooting guards in the league Kobe is tops. You can say the same about Duncan comparing him to other centers around the league. The both impact their parts of the court in much the same way. No coach wants his team to have to deal with a center with Duncan's abilities in much the same way no coach wants his team to have to deal with a Bryant as SG.

I will say this for Kobe. Impact can be measured by how others react to it. Is there a player in the league (Duncan included) that instills as much fear from opposing players and coaches and fans as Kobe Bryant? Explain why that is if not for impact...



duncan has had way more success given their circumstances. kobe simply can't carry a team to a title......let alone the finals like duncan could. and that is ok...not many players can. but duncan was so good that he could do that with an super elite team. kobe can't. its a huge difference in their level of play and impact.


Duncan has not been the most successful player in his era. Kobe Bryant has. You cannot demote success by penalizing how much help a player had or promoting another player who you believe faced more adversity. This is because you have no idea what would happen given reverse circumstances. Measure their success alone and you will see that in terms of winning and rings and finals appearances Kobe Bryant has been the most successful player of his time.



if kobe had ever done something special or proven he could do that...i'd be give kobe a ton of credit. but the fact remains that kobe had chances and never did anything. now his team is so good around him that he can win titles without even playing well.


Bias. I am sure you are in the minority of people who think Kobe has done nothing special. There are FAR more people who even hate Kobe Bryant but have come to grudgingly admit the determination of a man who was up, got knocked down and fought his way back up the hill. The fact that he has had to struggle the whole time along the way only adds to the legend it doesn't detract from it. No one thinks Jordan is any less great because his Bulls team was by far the best team in the league for years.



but nobody will admit that kobe was awful in this year's finals. that is why this is pointless. people on here claim he played well in game 7. lots of people. the dude was beyond bad. if his team was not super elite....they would have lost by 30....yet the somehow won with kobe jacking up 24 absurd shots and only making six.

I will admit that Kobe was awful. He was awful shooting the ball for three quarters. Just dreadful. His legs were gone. His injuries had piled up on him. Yet as a fan of Bryant and the Lakers I would have it no other way. The finals game was my favorite game as a Lakers fan. Why? Because I have always been frustrated at the Lakers' penchant to watch as Bryant bailed them out of tough situations. Yet in the finals game Kobe played through a myriad of injuries each of which on its own would have stopped every other superstar in the league, and he never complained or tried to give any excuses... he just went out there and threw himself at the pistons. No one can tell me otherwise... but it was likely the heroic way that despite being hurt playing on one leg and no fingers against one of the best defensive teams the league has ever seen and being exhausted yet playing hard every minute and rebounding like a powerforward that jolted this Lakers team into doing what it couldnt two years ago: Carry their superstar. You think it makes Bryant weak. I think it made him stronger.

[Mor'Fiyah]

you are going to rank them off head to head? that is the single dumbest thing i've ever seen. kobe was playing with shaq. my god. and the spurs still beat them a couple of times.

imagine if duncan had a top 8 player of all time at his side. it wouldn't even have been competitive.

yea....lets use head to head. that makes sense.

Yet Duncan did not have a top 8 player of all time. I think tons of people would think that if you mix two top five players with a top ten that you get instant championship. But thats not exactly how it works. You cant assume that because Duncan did so much with so little that he would mesh with just any elite player and win a ring. You discount team chemistry, fit, strategy, THE OPPOSING TEAMS, injury etc. etc. etc.

[Mor'Fiyah]

totally agree. if only you weren't over-rating kobe's defense enormously. what you say is true with someone like payton/pippen/jordan. not kobe. kobe's defense is simply not on their levels at all.

Says who? You? A poster on a message board? If we looked at all the elite shooting guards throughout history where do you think the MAJORITY would rank Kobe Bryant? Its easy to say whatever you want. Doesn't mean you are right. I say Kobe is elite defensively when he needs to be and his impact on the defensive end of the court is elite and feared by opposing coaches and players. I likely have the quotes from these coaches and players to back it up. What do you have?

[chazzy]

Ginobli's talking about level of play, not resume/accolades etc.. I see what he's saying. You can't say "it's not fair to compare big man to guard defense" because that's an advantage big men generally have, you can't just ignore it... the same way guards typically score more/deal more assists.

[che guevara]

Says who? You? A poster on a message board? If we looked at all the elite shooting guards throughout history where do you think the MAJORITY would rank Kobe Bryant? Its easy to say whatever you want. Doesn't mean you are right. I say Kobe is elite defensively when he needs to be and his impact on the defensive end of the court is elite and feared by opposing coaches and players. I likely have the quotes from these coaches and players to back it up. What do you have?
What years are you talking about? Not this year, or the last two, hopefully.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Ginobli's talking about level of play, not resume/accolades etc.. I see what he's saying. You can't say "it's not fair to compare big man to guard defense" because that's an advantage big men generally have, you can't just ignore it... the same way guards typically score more/deal more assists.

But how do you measure how difficult it is to get an assist as a SG vs. a rebound as a center? You cant measure it one for one. The only thing you can do is see how well other comparable positional players do. How do they compare to their peers. Kobe is at least equally dominant at his position as Duncan is at his. And more players and coaches feared Kobe's impact on the court more than they feared Duncan's.

[Mor'Fiyah]

What years are you talking about? Not this year, or the last two, hopefully.

Every year he has won the defensive player of the year he has been elite defensively WHEN ASKED TO BE. When the needed Kobe to shut a player down he has done so. His ability to do that impacts the game and his career impact in games. I am not just talking about recent seasons.

[LA_Showtime]

Ginobli is just embarrassing himself at this point. He complains about trolls and then he says Kobe and Duncan don't belong in the same sentence. Pure comedy.

[ginobli2311]

You ducked the question: do you like Kobe's personality on the court? My guess would be that irrespective of on court skills, you don't like Kobe's percieved persona. Am I wrong? Answer the question.



I never said anything about who played with more or less talent. Its really not relevant is it? Players don't control how much talent they eventually win with. It either happens or it does not. Kobe winning with more talent is not a determinant into whether or not he could win with less talent or the same amount of talent Duncan had. They are different players and impact the game in different ways.




Your problem again is that you keep trying to compare a shooting guards stats to a centers stats. They you compound your mistake by thinking these stats are a viable method of saying one player had more impact in a game than another when the game is MAYBE 5% stats. Kobe's stats are ELITE at the shooting guard level. His rebounds are ELITE. His assist numbers are ELITE. His ppg numbers are ELITE. Compared to other shooting guards in the league Kobe is tops. You can say the same about Duncan comparing him to other centers around the league. The both impact their parts of the court in much the same way. No coach wants his team to have to deal with a center with Duncan's abilities in much the same way no coach wants his team to have to deal with a Bryant as SG.

I will say this for Kobe. Impact can be measured by how others react to it. Is there a player in the league (Duncan included) that instills as much fear from opposing players and coaches and fans as Kobe Bryant? Explain why that is if not for impact...



Duncan has not been the most successful player in his era. Kobe Bryant has. You cannot demote success by penalizing how much help a player had or promoting another player who you believe faced more adversity. This is because you have no idea what would happen given reverse circumstances. Measure their success alone and you will see that in terms of winning and rings and finals appearances Kobe Bryant has been the most successful player of his time.



Bias. I am sure you are in the minority of people who think Kobe has done nothing special. There are FAR more people who even hate Kobe Bryant but have come to grudgingly admit the determination of a man who was up, got knocked down and fought his way back up the hill. The fact that he has had to struggle the whole time along the way only adds to the legend it doesn't detract from it. No one thinks Jordan is any less great because his Bulls team was by far the best team in the league for years.



I will admit that Kobe was awful. He was awful shooting the ball for three quarters. Just dreadful. His legs were gone. His injuries had piled up on him. Yet as a fan of Bryant and the Lakers I would have it no other way. The finals game was my favorite game as a Lakers fan. Why? Because I have always been frustrated at the Lakers' penchant to watch as Bryant bailed them out of tough situations. Yet in the finals game Kobe played through a myriad of injuries each of which on its own would have stopped every other superstar in the league, and he never complained or tried to give any excuses... he just went out there and threw himself at the pistons. No one can tell me otherwise... but it was likely the heroic way that despite being hurt playing on one leg and no fingers against one of the best defensive teams the league has ever seen and being exhausted yet playing hard every minute and rebounding like a powerforward that jolted this Lakers team into doing what it couldnt two years ago: Carry their superstar. You think it makes Bryant weak. I think it made him stronger.


here is what we disagree on. i think you can put success into context. i think using context....clearly duncan has been the most successful player of the decade. followed by kobe...then shaq. i think shaq is a better player than kobe overall....but if we are just going off "success"...then i think kobe deserves to be ahead of shaq.

so we will just have to agree to disagree. nobody could tell me that kobe's last title is as impressive as duncan's in 03 or hakeem's in 94. i think that would be an idiotic statement. if we can't use our brains....then why even debate. just go off paper resume for ranking every player. in my opinion you have to use context with all this stuff.

is kobe winning his 5th title great for his overall legacy? yes....but how he won it matters a little as well. he played a dreadful finals in my opinion and he had the luxury of not playing well against the thunder as well. not many teams in nba history can afford the luxury of their star player playing awful for an entire series in the 4th qtr like kobe did in the finals and still win a game 7 in which that same player has one of the worst finals games of all time by an elite player.

its just how i feel. context. if we don't use it i think debating is pointless.

for example. are we really going to hold KG to the same standards for titles/resume as we are pau gasol? that doesn't make sense. clearly gasol has had huge advantages in this regard getting to play in his prime on the best team in the league now for his 4th year.

i just don't think its fair to hold dirk/kg to those same standards. or paul pierce for that matter. are you really going to tell me that pierce has had the same chances to win titles as kobe has for their careers?

if we don't bring in circumstances...its pointless.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli is just embarrassing himself at this point. He complains about trolls and then he says Kobe and Duncan don't belong in the same sentence. Pure comedy.

no. false.

i said the following:

"if its absurd to compare pierce and kobe....then its absurd to compare duncan and kobe"

i think the gap between duncan and kobe is similar to the gap between pierce and kobe.

again. i'm going off level of play and impact. not resume. i don't need you to tell me all of kobe's accomplishments. i'm going off how well these players play the damn game.

agree or disagree. thats fine. but you really can't have one without the other. you can't tell me that pierce is a joke compared to kobe without saying kobe is a joke compared to duncan. its just doesn't work.

i don't believe either....as i've said. i have no problem with people debating kobe over duncan. i just feel very strongly that if you had to pick kobe or duncan for their best 12 years....90% would take duncan.

therefore i think its pretty obvious that duncan was the better player.

[ginobli2311]

But how do you measure how difficult it is to get an assist as a SG vs. a rebound as a center? You cant measure it one for one. The only thing you can do is see how well other comparable positional players do. How do they compare to their peers. Kobe is at least equally dominant at his position as Duncan is at his. And more players and coaches feared Kobe's impact on the court more than they feared Duncan's.

by its very nature a great defensive big impacts the game in a much bigger way than a good defensive perimeter player. the exceptions are very few like jordan/pippen/payton in my opinion.

1. i think you are vastly over-rating kobe's impact defensively.
2. just like a sg has an easier time scoring points. points are points and rebounds are rebounds. i don't hear anyone saying " well kobe's not really a better scorer because duncan plays center and its unfair to centers because they can't score as much"

guess what? dominant bigs are almost always more valuable that guards. its the nature of the game. dominant bigs that are elite defenders are for sure more valuable than just about any guard not named michael/magic/larry

and i'd take duncan slightly over bird because of that. it might not be fair so to speak. but its reality.

[evilmonkey]

Chasing Jordan? Kobe? Hahahahahahahah
He only needs a couple of MVPs, DPOYs, Final MVPs, other awards and broken records, milestones, achievements, accomplishments, 1000 times better season/playoff/clutch productions and so on..........

LMFAO KOBRICK :facepalm

[zizozain]

Ginobli2311 is the other account of New York Knicks?
no

NBASTATMAN

[ginobli2311]

you know what else.

why don't we just take bigs out of the equation. its so hard to compare them.

i have kobe as the 4th best no big ever...followed very closely by oscar. i go back and forth....but i have kobe ahead of him because i think kobe is going to have at least one magical finals moment in the next two years. or at least i hope he does.

you all think i hate kobe. thats not true. i just want him to earn his place that most of you have vaulted him up to. nothing would make me happier than for kobe to come up with a legendary finals performance this year. i would shut up and be so happy. i wanted that out of him this year....but it went completely the opposite direction.

so....forget bigs:

1. jordan
2. magic
3. bird.
4. kobe
5. oscar

i'm not going to debate guards vs bigs anymore. it really doesn't make sense because its pointless to say a point isn't a point and a rebound isn't a rebound or....impact isn't impact.

lets just debate guards vs guards and bigs vs bigs.

[MakeHistory78]

If anyone think (Kobe homers especially) that Kobe Bean Bryant is close to Michael Jeffrey Jordan then kidding himself or he is 16-18 years old and he never watched MJ or he is a moron.
Kobe has so much haters and the biggest reason is his fans-trolls boys.

[branslowski]

If anyone think (Kobe homers especially) that Kobe Bean Bryant is close to Michael Jeffrey Jordan then kidding himself or he is 16-18 years old and he never watched MJ or he is a moron.
Kobe has so much haters and the biggest reason is his fans-trolls boys.

Same reason Jordan has so many haters.

[crisoner]

If someone is hated on so much they must be doing something right.

[ginobli2311]

Same reason Jordan has so many haters.

true.

the difference?

jordan was much better and his fans aren't nearly as bad as kobe's.

[Big#50]

Kobe Bryant is one of the top ten greatest ever. He has failed a lot of times, but every other top ten player has too. He is a bit selfish, Jordan was too. Jordan had two of the best defenders ever in Pippen and Rodman.Kobe was a second option to Shaq and at times saved by Gasol.
They are closer than people make it out to be. Once you get to ranking the top ten players ever, it is very close, and a matter of opinion.
I would take Duncan/Shaq/KAJ over MJ/Kobe.

[crisoner]

true.

the difference?

jordan was much better and his fans aren't nearly as bad as kobe's.


How old are you first bro?

Jordan's fans were obnoxious. Only thing we didn't have the internet back then. How SOOOON people forget. Dude was not God like.
Do I have to mention Face Jam?

[ginobli2311]

How old are you first bro?

Jordan's fans were obnoxious. Only thing we didn't have the internet back then. How SOOOON people forget. Dude was not God like.
Do I have to mention Face Jam?

jordan fans were absolutely obnoxious. still are all the time. but what they are saying is much more in line with reality than kobe fans.

[DKLaker]

this is just a ploy to take the spotlight off Lebron's struggles.

True.....and isn't it pathetic!!!!!

[Big#50]

How old are you first bro?

Jordan's fans were obnoxious. Only thing we didn't have the internet back then. How SOOOON people forget. Dude was not God like.
Do I have to mention Face Jam?
Space Jam was a fun movie.

[MakeHistory78]

Same reason Jordan has so many haters.
Jordan hasn't many haters.Don't be stupid.Jordan's career speak for himself.You can't compare Kobe to Jordan.Jordan destroy Kobe almost at everything.This is the reality!
Jordan was,is and always will be the most beloved player.Because of his greatness.Everybody know that.

[crisoner]

Space Jam was a fun movie.

I think making Face Jam though was even Funner!!!

[Ne 1]

Why do MJ fan boys act so insecure every time Kobe vs Jordan is brought up?

It's obvious they feel threatened because they fail to give Kobe any credit whatsoever and they only bring up his shortcomings and downplay anything great that he does and continue to constantly bash and diminish him what ever chance they get. You can't tell me Jordan fans aren't outraged and infuriated when the media always compares them and creates these segments about ''Kobe chasing Jordan'' and Kobe being the heir apparent. Kobe might not be Jordan but he is the closest thing we have to him. I believe deep down Jordan fans that grew up with MJ as their childhood hero (the majority of people on this site) just wish Kobe would have went down as one of the many ''next Jordan'' players that failed to live up to expectations. e.g. Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Harold Minor, Jerry Stackhouse, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Tracy Mcgrady etc.

Some people have Jordan so high up on a pedestal and their under this illusion that MJ is untouchable and by far and away the clear, undisputed greatest. To them Jordan being the GOAT is an undisputed scientific fact and not an opinion and anyone who disagrees committed blasphemy.

Honesty, I cant blame Jordan though because making people love him is what he did best. The NBA has immortalized Jordan's image and the fact that Kobe Bryant has come in trying to take the "best player ever" crown from Jordan threatens his fans so they disregard Kobe's achievements and and disrespect his game.

Jordan is ascribed god-like qualities at times by his biggest fans and they hate Kobe because he is the closest we have ever seen to Jordan and they think that is wrong, which I think is stupid. They just wont accept anything that might tarnish Jordan's ''legacy''.

We all know Kobe isn't on MJ's level but Kobe's career is far from over. Dude is only 32 years old and to be honest it's really pointless to really compare them right now.

[Willkill24]

I love sucking Jordan's d*ck
Yes. yes you do.

[branslowski]

true.

the difference?

jordan was much better and his fans aren't nearly as bad as kobe's.

From where you view things, I'm not surprised in this answer.



But in reality....Both Kobe and Jordan stans alike are the scum of the Earth..


You have Kobe stans like Alpha Wold overrating Pippen and Grant just to diminsh Jordan...Then they use Jordan's playoff records without Pippen, aswell as Bulls wins without Jordan in 95' in attempts to trash/diminish Jordan...They make it hard to be Kobe fans, because then we have morons who throw every single Kobe fan in the bucket of "He thinks Kobe>>Jordan"...:facepalm ...This forum is a great example...There's about 3 insane Kobe stans who thinks Kobe>>Jordan, while all the rest know better, yet those 3 leave a bigger impact on idiots minds..

Which leads me to Jordan Stans...Instead of ignoring obvious idiots, they woke up and turned into idiots, force feeding Jordan's accomplishments down our throats like the holybible...Hi Jacksing Kobe threads, Vids, exc...(Because they are now bitter) saying shit like "Jordan did it better"...."He aint Jordan"..blah, blah, blah...They go on and on about this man who has been retired...So now that they are butthurt over Kobe trolls, they go into full Kobe Hater mode...They hate everything because they fear Kobe for some odd reason....Bitter pieces of shit...

If there was a raking for worst fans, yeah, i'd place Kobe stans num 1...But Jordan stans would be right next to them as 1/b...

And it's worst for good Kobe fans....Because the only way dipshits see us as unbiased is if we agree with their outlandish hater remarks when it comes to Kobe...Then once we call them out for it, they become butthurt and call even the good Kobe FANS, Kobe stans....It's f*cked up...

I have Kobe n top 10...In the 8-10 range, not num 1.....I bashed Kobe for choking in the 04' finals, becasue watching it, he obviously was gunning to win a finals MVP, and closed out Shaq, 100% his fault...I know he quit to prove a point in the Suns game 7..I bashed him for that....But once I don't bash him on the things haters are reaching for, they throw all the good Kobe fans in that dumbass Alpha Wolf group.


Not everyone does this...Most knows I'm a good poster...Trolls don't because they are usually butthurt after I put them in their place....

But back to the point...Both fanbases has their large batch of idiot stans.

[branslowski]

Yes. yes you do.

:roll:

[LA_Showtime]

no

NBASTATMAN

No, I don't think so. He reminds me of Bruce. His tendency to come off as a complete lunatic are so Bruce-esque.

[MakeHistory78]

Yes. yes you do.
You love sucking both Kobe's and Shaq's.Your mouth is bigger than your ass.

[Alhazred]

Kobe's rightfully a top ten GOAT all-time and he'll probably win another ring or two. As of now, he has a strong case as being the second greatest guard of all-time, or at the very least only behind Jordan and Magic.

Still, I don't see him going down as better than Jordan. Kobe's career so far has been legendary, but he never really took over the league in the same manner that Jordan did. Eventually, someone will come along and overtake Jordan in popularity, skill and dominance, it just won't be Kobe.

This isn't hate, though. I've been watching Kobe since he was new in the league and still had a 'fro, and he is by far the closest we've gotten to seeing the next Jordan in my eyes. Kobe's a great player, period, regardless if he measures up to Jordan or not.

[thejumpa]

You're a fool if you think Kobe doesn't think about passing MJ in championships/achievments and uses it as some sort of motivation. That's what being competitive is all about. It's obvious he admires MJ a shitload so I don't see why so many people are disagreeing with the article.

[Nevaeh]

NE1:

I think the problem you and other Kobe Stans have is you have trouble accepting the fact that Kobe's overall game is simply too flawed to even consider him the GOAT. It's not so much about MJ as an Icon, but as a basketball player. I can't count the number of threads some Kobe fan will start, heralding him as the greatest in a certain category, only to have it picked apart by basic facts that's available to anyone.

This isn't about Kobe NOT being a great player. Everyone knows he is. It's about him getting the GOAT status which is simply out of his reach thanks to flaws in his game that have been covered countless times. A career 45% shooting guard is not better than a career 50% shooting guard, simple as that.

And that has nothing to do with Space Jam, T-shirts, shoes, the media or anything else other than the Game itself. It's not about insecurity, it's about making sure that a lie told enough times does not becomes the truth.

[Maneva]

Kobe's rightfully a top ten GOAT all-time and he'll probably win another ring or two. As of now, he has a strong case as being the second greatest guard of all-time, or at the very least only behind Jordan and Magic.

Still, I don't see him going down as better than Jordan. Kobe's career so far has been legendary, but he never really took over the league in the same manner that Jordan did. Eventually, someone will come along and overtake Jordan in popularity, skill and dominance, it just won't be Kobe.

This isn't hate, though. I've been watching Kobe since he was new in the league and still had a 'fro, and he is by far the closest we've gotten to seeing the next Jordan in my eyes. Kobe's a great player, period, regardless if he measures up to Jordan or not.

:applause:

Can we just end this thread here please?

[PHILA]

That is the point. Being the public's GOAT is not about resumes. If it were Russell or Kareem would be at the top of every list with Jordan and Wilt lagging a bit behind in the next group.Jordan's resume is AT LEAST equal to Kareem's and well beyond Wilt's. Get real.
Or we could rank by tiers. Top tier (Mt. Rushmore) would be as follows in no order.

Russell
Chamberlain
Abdul-Jabbar
Jordan

[branslowski]

Or we could rank by tiers. Top tier (Mt. Rushmore) would be as follows in no order.

Magic
Shaq or Bird
Abdul-Jabbar
Jordan

Fixed.

[Heilige]

Does anyone have a link to the article the OP posted?

[PHILA]

Fixed.

Let me guess, weak era?

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan's resume is AT LEAST equal to Kareem's and well beyond Wilt's. Get real.

Wilt's individual resume and individual brilliance=GOAT.

Kareem had better longevity, won one more MVP, dominated for a longer period of time, etc. All Jordan really has over Kareem in terms of the resume is the faux category of "rings as the man." Even scoring prime for prime is similar, despite Jordan taking substantially more shots a game.


Or we could rank by tiers. Top tier (Mt. Rushmore) would be as follows in no order.

Russell
Chamberlain
Abdul-Jabbar
Jordan


I occasionally think ranking by tiers is the best way. I certainly agree that if one were to create a top tier those four should be on everyone's list.

[Vragrant]

Even though educated basketball fans know Jordan is a superior/dominant player and know the context in which both won their rings favours Jordan, Kobe having as much rings as Jordan just doesn't seem right.

[branslowski]

Let me guess, weak era?

Not really....You have your Mt. Rushmore...I have mines..

[magnax1]

Roundall, didn't you make a thread like this about Lebron a while ago? Or it was maybe Kobe, I don't remember, but I remember you already made a thread like this. Anyway, everyone knows that Kobe isn't as good as Jordan, so even if the media and uneducated fans say he isn't it doesn't really matter.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not really....You have your Mt. Rushmore...I have mines..
:oldlol:

This kid ..

[branslowski]

:oldlol:

This kid ..
:confusedshrug:

If you have a prob with Bird, Magic, Jordan, KAJ, being on my list then ohwell..

[Samurai Swoosh]

:confusedshrug:
No, I have a problem with your creepy continued obsession with things Michael Jackson related and it's almost 2 years since his death.
:oldlol:

[branslowski]

No, I have a problem with your creepy continued obsession with things Michael Jackson related and it's almost 2 years since his death.
:oldlol:

So I can't rock an MJ avy now?...

[Samurai Swoosh]

So I can't rock an MJ avy now?...
Didn't say that ... it's just disturbing your obsession with him.

:oldlol:

[NuggetsFan]

It's kinda unfair for Kobe. He see's alot of hate(from me included even) because people prop him up. If the media tries to force him down people's throats it's just not going to work and only be took out on Kobe. Kobe simply isn't Jordan. Jordan's resume, big moments you name it are just flat out better. Kobe has one big thing on Jordan, 81 point game. It's IMO to late for Kobe to be GOAT. It is however not too late for Kobe to climb the rankings. Nothing wrong with finishing anywhere from the 3rd-6th best player of all time or w.e, and don't see why people feel the need to diminish him or prop him up.

Can anyone actually say they think Kobe could be GOAT?. It'd basically get "GOAT" status because he's on the best team in the league for the remaining years. Helps the resume no doubt and he's earning it but it's not something that can catapult you to the best ever.

Anyways I have Kobe like 9th All-Time I think. I have a feeling he'll climb up pretty fast. Can't see him breaking into the top 3 IMO.

[thejumpa]

Didn't say that ... it's just disturbing your obsession with him.

:oldlol:

Hater. Hit em with an epic gif branslowksi. I would but I have none.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Hater. Hit em with an epic gif branslowksi. I would but I have none.
Who said I don't like Michael Jackson?

:oldlol:

The Jackson fans are pissed ... lol

[branslowski]

Didn't say that ... it's just disturbing your obsession with him.

:oldlol:

http://i25.tinypic.com/33xe9o0.jpg


So...

[branslowski]

Hater. Hit em with an epic gif branslowksi. I would but I have none.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2l9jc5i.jpg

:cheers:

[thejumpa]

:rockon:

That's what's up...

[G-Funk]

Kobe will be the 2nd GOAT. Take it to the bank



He will finish with 7 rings & 4 Finals MVP- 28/6/5 at the same age Jordan came into the league???:bowdown:

[guy]

what?

Kobe said he molded his game after MAGIC? And you're buying that?

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe said he molded his game after MAGIC? And you're buying that?

Um, no? :oldlol: Read my post again. I thought that's what you were getting at. What I said was "It doesn't sound retarded like when Kobe said ____" or something close to that. Reading comprehension.

[The Iron Fist]

Nah.

You might think not, but theres an entire generation of 7 to 18 year olds who are idolizing Kobe Bryant right now who don't know of and don't give a shit about a Michael Jordan.

The same thing happened in the 90s when a generation of kids idolized Jordan and didn't know about or give a shit about Kareem or Wilt or Russell.

There are kids who think Lil Wayne and Kanye West are the greatest rappers ever,

you don't think they'll hold Kobe Bryant, who as of right now has 5 championships in high regard?

You're kidding yourself if you don't.

[Mor'Fiyah]

here is what we disagree on. i think you can put success into context. i think using context....clearly duncan has been the most successful player of the decade. followed by kobe...then shaq. i think shaq is a better player than kobe overall....but if we are just going off "success"...then i think kobe deserves to be ahead of shaq.

so we will just have to agree to disagree. nobody could tell me that kobe's last title is as impressive as duncan's in 03 or hakeem's in 94. i think that would be an idiotic statement. if we can't use our brains....then why even debate. just go off paper resume for ranking every player. in my opinion you have to use context with all this stuff.

is kobe winning his 5th title great for his overall legacy? yes....but how he won it matters a little as well. he played a dreadful finals in my opinion and he had the luxury of not playing well against the thunder as well. not many teams in nba history can afford the luxury of their star player playing awful for an entire series in the 4th qtr like kobe did in the finals and still win a game 7 in which that same player has one of the worst finals games of all time by an elite player.

its just how i feel. context. if we don't use it i think debating is pointless.

for example. are we really going to hold KG to the same standards for titles/resume as we are pau gasol? that doesn't make sense. clearly gasol has had huge advantages in this regard getting to play in his prime on the best team in the league now for his 4th year.

i just don't think its fair to hold dirk/kg to those same standards. or paul pierce for that matter. are you really going to tell me that pierce has had the same chances to win titles as kobe has for their careers?

if we don't bring in circumstances...its pointless.

I have no problem with you using circumstances to excuse a players failures. You have to be lucky as well as good to win a ring. But you cannot use circumstances to detract from a players success because its not a flaw to be in a favourable circumstance. Its not a mistake or a downfall. Part of playing the game is putting yourself in favourable circumstances to win. Kobe's done that.

[catch24]

You might think not, but theres an entire generation of 7 to 18 year olds who are idolizing Kobe Bryant right now who don't know of and don't give a shit about a Michael Jordan.

There are kids who think Lil Wayne and Kanye West are the greatest rappers ever,

you don't think they'll hold Kobe Bryant, who as of right now has 5 championships in high regard?

There are kids who think Santa Claus is real. What's your point? It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively.

[Nevaeh]

You might think not, but theres an entire generation of 7 to 18 year olds who are idolizing Kobe Bryant right now who don't know of and don't give a shit about a Michael Jordan.

The same thing happened in the 90s when a generation of kids idolized Jordan and didn't know about or give a shit about Kareem or Wilt or Russell.

There are kids who think Lil Wayne and Kanye West are the greatest rappers ever,

you don't think they'll hold Kobe Bryant, who as of right now has 5 championships in high regard?

You're kidding yourself if you don't.


That's just flawed logic. I can BELIEVE dog sh@t tastes great, it don't mean it's true. That's why forums like this exist now to set things straight. It's called education. If no one exposes kids to real hip hop or the reason why FG%, impact, and overall dominance matters, they'll think ANYONE who scores a lot of points is the GOAT. You have kids out there who think AI was the GOAT. Would you just let that slide?

[EricForman]

That is the point. Being the public's GOAT is not about resumes. If it were Russell or Kareem would be at the top of every list with Jordan and Wilt lagging a bit behind in the next group.

11 rings, 5 MVP's (against prime Wilt with Oscar, West, and Baylor there to boot..), and who knows how many DPOY's had the award existed back then. That>6 rings, 5 MVP's. 11>>>6. 5=5.

Kareem? 6>5. 6=6. 38,000>whatever Jordan finished with. 10 NBA finals>6. 14 conference finals>8.



There are legitimate arguments to diminish Kareem vis-a-vis Jordan but they are not dispositive facts. Similar nitpicking can be done with Jordan. For instance, Jordan had a whopping 5 losing seasons--perhaps more than any top 50 of all-time player.






I've been gone for a while and I come back and it's like ain't nothing ever changed. This moron Roundball still acting like the only people in the world who think Jordan is GOAT are people who grew up during the 90s and eat up everything Nike markets. Yes, there are no real basketball fans or knowledgeable insiders who consider Jordan GOAT :rolleyes:

This idiot brings up Kareem's points total. Well no sh*t Kareem has more points he played longer. That's like saying Vince Carter has more points total than Durant now hence no one should put them in the same breath.

More trip to the finals? I know you like to play up Pippen to God but Jordan still had less of a cast around him than any other all time great who won. Check who Kareem played with, check what Kobe's working with now (the 7th best player on the Lakers can drop 25 any given night. Gasol is the most efficient/best player for the night at least 30-35 times a season), check who Russell won with.

Get real, you delusional clown. Jordan is the GOAT because of a combination of rings/dominance/stats and Xfactors like "he has never stunked up a playoff series the way 99.999% of all other NBA players have".

Of course, you're ognna say people think Jordan is goat because Jordan has a video game and Nike pimps him.

[The Iron Fist]

There are kids who think Santa Claus is real. What's your point? It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively.


The same can be said about those who prop up Jordan as the best without ever seeing Kareems, Wilts or Russells career extensively,

so whats the difference?


There isn't any. Or are you going to sit here and tell me that the generation of kids who watched Jordans career unfold, watched Kareems, Wilts and Bills to make an accurate judgement of who the GOAT is?




In most cases, its all based on who a person grew up watching.

[The Iron Fist]

That's just flawed logic. I can BELIEVE dog sh@t tastes great, it don't mean it's true. That's why forums like this exist now to set things straight. It's called education. If no one exposes kids to real hip hop or the reason why FG%, impact, and overall dominance matters, they'll think ANYONE who scores a lot of points is the GOAT. You have kids out there who think AI was the GOAT. Would you just let that slide?

Its not flawed logic when I'm telling you that its all based on perception and not actual observation.


Simple question.

Did you watch Kareems, Wilts or Russells career from beginning to end to make an accurate assessment of their place in the all time rankings?

If not,

how can you say with certainty, that the guy you apparently watched,

is the GOAT?

[catch24]

The same can be said about those who prop up Jordan as the best without ever seeing Kareems, Wilts or Russells career extensively,

so whats the difference?


There isn't any. Or are you going to sit here and tell me that the generation of kids who watched Jordans career unfold, watched Kareems, Wilts and Bills to make an accurate judgement of who the GOAT is?

In most cases, its all based on who a person grew up watching.

Jordan isn't the undisputed GOAT. To most people I've talked to, though, he's close (same goes for most media outlets). It's not like it's ridiculous to claim Jordan was/is the best player ever, either. If there were someone who DID have the best case for 'GOAT' it would be Jordan. 6 Final MVPs, 6 championships, 5 MVPs, leader in regular and postseason PPG, etc, etc. My point is your original example was flawed and ridiculously baseless. A five year old can believe 4+4 = 9. According to you that would be ok, because he's "entitled to his opinion".

[The Iron Fist]

Jordan isn't the undisputed GOAT. To most people I've talked to, though, he's close (same goes for most media outlets). It's not like it's ridiculous to claim Jordan was/is the best player ever, either. If there were someone who DID have the best case for 'GOAT' it would be Jordan. 6 Final MVPs, 6 championships, 5 MVPs, leader in regular and postseason PPG, etc, etc. My point is your original example was flawed and ridiculously baseless. A five year old can believe 4+4 = 9. According to you that would be ok, because he's "entitled to his opinion".

Most people you've talked to and in the media,

grew up watching him as he was more accessible.



My example isn't flawed in any way because the whole point is,
"perception is reality".



and btw, I never said it was ridiculous to say he was the GOAT.

But there are a few legends who can make an equally great case as well,

those guys just happened to play in an era that when basketball wasn't nearly as popular nor was the sport or its stars as accessible.

Kids today see Kobe Bryant as a champion 5 times over.

They don't know shit about Jordan, Kareem, Wilt or Russell.

To him, he will be their GOAT and no amount of older guys is going to change their opinion because the same way that people try to discredit the players of the 60s, 70s, and 80s to prop up the 90s,

the next generation of kids will do the exact same thing.

[catch24]

Its not flawed logic when I'm telling you that its all based on perception and not actual observation.


Simple question.

Did you watch Kareems, Wilts or Russells career from beginning to end to make an accurate assessment of their place in the all time rankings?

If not,

how can you say with certainty, that the guy you apparently watched,

is the GOAT?

Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant. A true basketball savant can research, read up/watch game footage and come up with a pretty good all-time list. Not my (or anyone else) fault that someone is too lazy to learn the games history. Just don't expect them to be popular with these type of forums.

[catch24]

That's that. Not gonna go any deeper into this subject. Kids who think that way should and will be educated when they're talking to basketball purists, period.

[The Iron Fist]

Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant. A true basketball savant can research, read up/watch game footage and come up with a pretty good all-time list. Not my (or anyone else) fault that someone is too lazy to learn the games history. Just don't expect them to be popular with these type of forums.
:wtf:

Did you not say this?


It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively.

Now, all of a sudden its irrelevant whether someone watched their careers extensively or not?


:roll:


Make up your mind.

[the_wise_one]

Kobe rode big men's coattails for 5 rings. Just like Magic.

He can't chase Jordan who won 6 as the #1 option.

[catch24]

:wtf:

Did you not say this?

Now, all of a sudden its irrelevant whether someone watched their careers extensively or not?

Most people ALIVE, watching basketball thoroughly, have seen both Kobe and Jordan. There is tons of footage from that two that is available online. With Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, it would be "irrelevant" because most who make an all time list that ARE alive, haven't watched them and there ISNT enough footage available to the public. That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc). Not sure why I had to explain this to you. Pretty easy to put two and two together.

[LA KB24]

like winning 7 means he's better?
:rolleyes:

Nobody is arguing about that.

[The Iron Fist]

Most people ALIVE, watching basketball thoroughly, have seen both Kobe and Jordan. There is tons of footage from that two that is available online. With Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, it would be "irrelevant" because most who make an all time list that ARE alive, haven't watched them and there ISNT enough footage available to the public. That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc). Not sure why I had to explain this to you. Pretty easy to put two and two together.
Yea, it is pretty easy to put two and two together,



you got caught talking out of your ass.


Originally Posted by catch24
It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively.



Originally Posted by catch24
Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant.

[catch24]

Yea, it is pretty easy to put two and two together,



you got caught talking out of your ass.


:oldlol: apparently for you it isn't.

Did you really just skim through and ignore my last reply? I understand you're trying to troll me and what not, but lets be honest, your game ain't up to par.

[LA KB24]

1) Personally, I don't think Kobe is telling the truth. He's definitely improved his on-the-court leadership, but until this year he was still yelling at guys, making them uncomfortable, cursing, etc... Quite honestly, I don't see much of a difference between 05-06 Kobe and 09-10 Kobe. His comments do back up this year's play, though.

2) He was hardly outplayed by Pierce. He had better numbers. He also had an inexperienced team that was facing three hall of fame players. It will definitely hurt his legacy for generally performing below-par in the Finals, but that shouldn't stop comparisons to Michael; like it or not, their games are eerily similar.

3) Would we? I doubt it. Jordan had plenty of "WTF" moments in his career and yet people still look at him as the GOAT. Winning cures everything; it's the perfect drug to make people forget your past.

4) We "love" Kobe because he's a Laker. We defend him because you morons like to spend your free time bitching about his accomplishments, haircut, style of play, fashion sense, etc. A bunch of people have called out Kobe for not passing the basketball. Go to Laker threads. Laker fans routinely get flamed by Kobe homers all the time. You're just too stupid to realize it.

Answer my question: Why are you so obsessed with downplaying Kobe's achievements? Do you honestly care that much?

My Advice: Get over it. You sound like an idiot.

5) AGAIN, comparing two players is not the same thing as saying one player is better than the other.

+rep. :cheers:

[LA KB24]

lol @ ginobili

46% career FG is actually great for a primarily jump shooting wing man.
Only ISH would care about the 4% MJ had over him.

[Jeffdaddy12]

Kobe is definitely chasing Jordan...
and he wants to pass Jordan...this is obvious. I think that Kobe idolized Jordan and would love to surpass as many accomplishments of Jordan as he possibly can.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEV3V4AsRk

[LA KB24]

Get real, you delusional clown. Jordan is the GOAT because of a combination of rings/dominance/stats and Xfactors like "he has never stunked up a playoff series the way 99.999% of all other NBA players have".

Of course, you're ognna say people think Jordan is goat because Jordan has a video game and Nike pimps him.

Jordan, 1996 Finals:
GM1: 9/18 FG 1/4 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 2 AS 2 ST 1 BK 28 PTS
GM2: 9/22 FG 1/2 3P 10/16 FT 6 RB 8 AS 2 ST 0 BK 29 PTS
GM3: 11/23 FG 3/4 3P 11/11 FT 3 RB 5 AS 2 ST 0 BK 36 PTS
GM4: 6/19 FG 0/2 3P 11/13 FT 3 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS
GM5: 11/22 FG 0/4 3P 4/5 FT 4 RB 1 AS 1 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM6: 5/19 FG 1/3 3P 11/12 FT 9 RB 7 AS 2 ST 0 BK 22 PTS

51/123 FG 6/19 3P 56/67 FT 32 RB 25 AS 10 ST 1 BK 164 PTS


Bryant, 2010 Finals:

GM1: 10/22 FG 1/2 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 6 AS 1 ST 1 BK 30 PTS
GM2: 8/20 FG 2/7 3P 3/3 FT 5 RB 6 AS 4 ST 0 BK 21 PTS
GM3: 10/29 FG 1/7 3P 8/8 FT 7 RB 4 AS 2 ST 3 BK 29 PTS
GM4: 10/22 FG 6/11 3P 7/8 FT 6 RB 2 AS 2 ST 0 BK 33 PTS
GM5: 13/27 FG 4/10 3P 8/9 FT 5 RB 4 AS 1 ST 1 BK 38 PTS
GM6: 9/19 FG 1/4 3P 7/7 FT 11 RB 3 AS 4 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM7: 6/24 FG 0/6 3P 11/15 FT 15 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS

66/163 FG 15/47 3P 53/60 FT 56 RB 27 AS 15 ST 5 BK 200 PTS


MJ shot 41%, Kobe 40%

If that was Kobe in 96 with those stats, they would have given the FMVP to the losing Shawn Kemp. Even though MJ deserves most of them, it contrasts to how the awards are given in today's era. The league just loved to shower Jordan with praise.

[The Iron Fist]

:oldlol: apparently for you it isn't.

Did you really just skim through and ignore my last reply? I understand you're trying to troll me and what not, but lets be honest, your game ain't up to par.


If the game is to create double standards on how to judge the GOAT,

then no, I won't lower myself to your double talk.


Either you have to watch each players career extensively,

or you don't.

You can't have it both ways which is exactly what you tried to do.



When it comes to Kobe and Jordan, "It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively."



When it comes to Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Kobe and Jordan, "Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant."

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan, 1996 Finals:
GM1: 9/18 FG 1/4 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 2 AS 2 ST 1 BK 28 PTS
GM2: 9/22 FG 1/2 3P 10/16 FT 6 RB 8 AS 2 ST 0 BK 29 PTS
GM3: 11/23 FG 3/4 3P 11/11 FT 3 RB 5 AS 2 ST 0 BK 36 PTS
GM4: 6/19 FG 0/2 3P 11/13 FT 3 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS
GM5: 11/22 FG 0/4 3P 4/5 FT 4 RB 1 AS 1 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM6: 5/19 FG 1/3 3P 11/12 FT 9 RB 7 AS 2 ST 0 BK 22 PTS

51/123 FG 6/19 3P 56/67 FT 32 RB 25 AS 10 ST 1 BK 164 PTS


Bryant, 2010 Finals:

GM1: 10/22 FG 1/2 3P 9/10 FT 7 RB 6 AS 1 ST 1 BK 30 PTS
GM2: 8/20 FG 2/7 3P 3/3 FT 5 RB 6 AS 4 ST 0 BK 21 PTS
GM3: 10/29 FG 1/7 3P 8/8 FT 7 RB 4 AS 2 ST 3 BK 29 PTS
GM4: 10/22 FG 6/11 3P 7/8 FT 6 RB 2 AS 2 ST 0 BK 33 PTS
GM5: 13/27 FG 4/10 3P 8/9 FT 5 RB 4 AS 1 ST 1 BK 38 PTS
GM6: 9/19 FG 1/4 3P 7/7 FT 11 RB 3 AS 4 ST 0 BK 26 PTS
GM7: 6/24 FG 0/6 3P 11/15 FT 15 RB 2 AS 1 ST 0 BK 23 PTS

66/163 FG 15/47 3P 53/60 FT 56 RB 27 AS 15 ST 5 BK 200 PTS


MJ shot 41%, Kobe 40%

If that was Kobe in 96 with those stats, they would have given the FMVP to the losing Shawn Kemp. Even though MJ deserves most of them, it contrasts to how the awards are given in today's era. The league just loved to shower Jordan with praise.

The difference is that Jordan shot better than his 2nd-5th options (Pippen, Harper, Kerr, and Kukoc all shot in the 30-40% range), and shot as well as his team did excluding him (41.6% vs. 41.5%). Kobe doesn't. Big difference.

[GilZero]

In other news, man has landed on the moon.

ESPN proving their worth :hammerhead:

[catch24]

If the game is to create double standards on how to judge the GOAT

No, Kobe stan. It's A.) You do your research or B.) Get prepared to be embrassed on an NBA forum/any somewhat intelligent basketball fan.


When it comes to Kobe and Jordan, "It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively."


When it comes to Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Kobe and Jordan, "Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant."

It becomes irrelevant because we don't have ENOUGH footage to completely gauge their impact. Why is this is so hard for you to understand? Oh, I know, because it fits into your agenda. For example, Bill Simmons wasn't alive to watch Wilt or Russell. Why did he make such an effort evaluating/ranking players he's NEVER seen play? One of the best posters here, G.O.A.T, barely if any, watched games of Wilt and Kareem yet has a very well thought out all-time list. Again, how and why does he know so MUCH about these legends?

Just because you weren't BORN or WITNESSED something when it took place, doesn't mean you can't take the time to research and/or learn about it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wilt's individual resume and individual brilliance=GOAT.

Not nearly the leader, winner, or playoff performer that Jordan was. Try again.


Kareem had better longevity, won one more MVP, dominated for a longer period of time, etc. All Jordan really has over Kareem in terms of the resume is the faux category of "rings as the man." Even scoring prime for prime is similar, despite Jordan taking substantially more shots a game.

First off, Kareem was taking just as many if not more shots than Jordan when he was putting up over 30 ppg. Second, "rings as the man" is not a "faux" category. The fact of the matter is that KAJ had Magic, a top 5 player of all time, alongside him for 5 of his 6 titles (and had Oscar, a top 12 player of all time, for the other, but I digress). KAJ wasn't the best player on his team for 2-3 of his titles depending on how you look at it. That DOES factor in. Imagine if Jordan had the luxury of playing with a player who was BETTER than him, or even of playing with a top 5-10 player all-time? How many titles do MJ and Hakeem or Shaq win from '87-'98? At least 7, if not 8.

[The Iron Fist]

No, Kobe stan. It's A.) You do your research or B.) Get prepared to be embrassed on an NBA forum/any somewhat intelligent basketball fan.



It becomes irrelevant because we don't have ENOUGH footage to completely gauge their impact. Why is this is so hard for you to understand? Oh, I know, because it fits into your agenda. For example, Bill Simmons wasn't alive to watch Wilt or Russell. Why did he make such an effort evaluating/ranking players he's NEVER seen play? One of the best posters here, G.O.A.T, barely if any, watched games of Wilt and Kareem yet has a very well thought out all-time list. Again, how and why does he know so MUCH about these legends?

Just because you weren't BORN or WITNESSED something when it took place, doesn't mean you can't take the time to research and/or learn about it.


The painting into the corner is complete.



That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc).


When it comes to Kobe and Jordan, "It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively."



When it comes to Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Kobe and Jordan, "Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant."


**** outta here clown.

You made an ass of yourself.

[catch24]

The painting into the corner is complete.

**** outta here clown.

You made an ass of yourself.

This is your response? Any dolt can take posts out of context.

Waive that white flag, son!

[The Iron Fist]

This is your response? Any dolt can take posts out of context.

Waive that white flag, son!


Which is exactly what you've done since responding to me in this thread.

Hi dolt.


The only flag being pulled out, is to put over your corpse.


Originally Posted by catch24
"It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively."

Originally Posted by catch24
"Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant."


Originally Posted by catch24
"It becomes irrelevant because we don't have ENOUGH footage to completely gauge their impact."


Originally Posted by catch24
"That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc)."





Looks like you were arguing with yourself.


:roll: :roll:

[catch24]

I'm just posting to post now

Looks like you keep repeating and quoting my posts because you're on your last leg. Congrats! You know how to spam; nice troll tactic. If one can't see the difference with WATCHING Kobe/Jordan (who have most of their BEST games uploaded onto youtube), and WATCHING Wilt/Kareem/Russell (who have JUST a few games available), I don't know what to say. Either you're purposely being stupid so you can have the last word, or, well, no older than 15. Maybe both?

[catch24]

Let me do what Ironfist aka Kareem=GOAT aka ISH's favorite Pippen fan does:


Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant. A true basketball savant can research, read up/watch game footage and come up with a pretty good all-time list. Not my (or anyone else) fault that someone is too lazy to learn the games history. Just don't expect them to be popular with these type of forums.


Most people ALIVE, watching basketball thoroughly, have seen both Kobe and Jordan. There is tons of footage from that two that is available online. With Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, it would be "irrelevant" because most who make an all time list that ARE alive, haven't watched them and there ISNT enough footage available to the public. That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc). Not sure why I had to explain this to you. Pretty easy to put two and two together.

Spamming aside, reading these posts, how can you disagree? Hmmm...

[sayitaintso]

Kobe has a long way of reaching Jordan's scoring champion (10). Eight more to go.

[The Iron Fist]

Looks like you keep repeating and quoting my posts because you're on your last leg. Congrats! You know how to spam; nice troll tactic. If one can't see the difference with WATCHING Kobe/Jordan (who have most of their BEST games uploaded onto youtube), and WATCHING Wilt/Kareem/Russell (who have JUST a few games available), I don't know what to say. Either you're purposely being stupid so you can have the last word, or, well, no older than 15. Maybe both?


Its not my fault you can't pick a side and stick with it.


Originally Posted by catch24
"It won't be true for those who understand the game and have watched both their careers extensively."

Originally Posted by catch24
"Whether or not someone watched their careers extensively is irrelevant."


Originally Posted by catch24
"It becomes irrelevant because we don't have ENOUGH footage to completely gauge their impact."


Originally Posted by catch24
"That's where researching comes into play (i.e. books, newspapers, quotes, boxscores/records, etc)."




"Spamming aside,"

I already said perception is reality.
How can you disagree?

I already explained to you why people view certain athletes as GOAT.

They grew up watching them. The same thing is going to happen with the generation that grows up watching players after Kobe just as it happened to Jordan, just as it happened to Kareem, just as it happened to Wilt, just as it happened to Bill.

I don't see whats so hard to admit about that. Mostly everyone holds in high regard those things that they grew up with. Its not a new concept. It happens in many sports. Jerry Rice passed Jim Brown who passed Don Hutson.

Quit being a dick and just say "oh, I didn't understand what you meant" instead of bringing up some bull shit like 5 year olds and santa claus. By the time a 5 year old grows up to be 10, they know there isn't a santa claus. But that whole scenario is much different when that 10 year old is growing up idolizing the premier athlete of their favorite sport in their day. The same rings true for music as well. They're going to prefer the music from the time period in which they grew up over some new age fancy schmancy shit.

Now if you want to continue to be an ass about it,

be my guest. You've been doing a fine job thus far.

[catch24]

Being an ass? You're the one quoting my posts purposely taking them out of context. You did it again, too.

Answer the question. Why do people like Bill Simmons, guys from SLAM magazine, the older posters here, etc., make an all-time list when they haven't seen 3-4 players from their top 10?

[Svendiggity]

Being an ass? You're the one quoting my posts purposely taking them out of context. You did it again, too.

Answer the question. Why do people like Bill Simmons, guys from SLAM magazine, the older posters here, etc., make an all-time list when they haven't seen 3-4 players from their top 10?

Why does it matter what Bill Simmons does? Come on man, quit arguing this. What The Iron Fist is saying is completely true. The majority of people are biased towards the era they grew up watching.

[catch24]

Why does it matter what Bill Simmons does? Come on man, quit arguing this. What The Iron Fist is saying is completely true. The majority of people are biased towards the era they grew up watching.

It's not just about Bill Simmons. You're missing the entire point.

Why do people in general make all-time lists and rank players ahead of others, when they've NEVER seen more than 1-2 games from them? Think about it.

[DCL]

kobe also made statements about him staying on the same team his entire career. this was obviously a mild slap on some guy who put on a wizards jersey, as if he's suggesting he's got an upper hand on this department. maybe he's a little mad because goat only placed him on the top-10 all time guards.

[Svendiggity]

It's not just about Bill Simmons. You're missing the entire point.

Why do people in general make all-time lists and rank players ahead of others, when they've NEVER seen more than 1-2 games from them? Think about it.

We grow up hearing that "x player" was great, so as basketball fans we must learn about that player to hold any credibility when talking about the all time greats. Still, in the back of peoples minds, and usually on their lists, you can tell that they are biased towards the generation they grew up watching.

Because for the most part people love what they grew up with. It's just how things are. This generation is going rank Kobe higher than the generation that grew watching Bird and Magic. But you'll still see Bird and Magic on their lists.

[Ne 1]

The majority of the world already considers Kobe top 3 all-time.

Actually had the 2nd most #1 votes of every player behind only Michael Jordan.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=293#topOfList

[catch24]

We grow up hearing that "x player" was great, so as basketball fans we must learn about that player to hold any credibility when talking about the all time greats. Still, in the back of peoples minds, and usually on their lists, you can tell that they are biased towards the generation they grew up watching.

There's a reason why we "heard" that 'x-player' was so great, though. Most lists have the same criteria. Championships, peak play, post season play, accolades, honors, awards, leadership and so on. It's no coincidence the guys that are in the top 10 (completely subjective btw), have a combination of these things and some. I grew up watching the Lakers, Kobe/Shaq duo, yet I respect what Jordan has done and what the 80's and 90's era represented. People being biased towards their generation isn't ALWAYS the case. Most people who are incredibly biased towards their era aren't objective nor are they true historians of this game, anyway.


Because for the most part people love what they grew up with. It's just how things are. This generation is going rank Kobe higher than the generation that grew watching Bird and Magic. But you'll still see Bird and Magic on their lists.

Lauging at the notion of Kobe being better than Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Wilt has nothing to do with the older generation being 'biased'. Dude simply just doesn't have the impact those guys had and probably ever will. I'm in my 20's and am a HUGE Lakers fan telling you this. Sometimes people have to accept reality and move on.

[DCL]

they named a steak and city in japan after kobe bryant.

[CarloJ63]

Exactly....and what's wrong with this?

When it comes to comparing anybody to Jordan..the Jordan fan are real quick to take offense. What's funny is some of the Jordan fans out there are young and didn't even see him play.

This is the thing...IF you really LOVED Jordan..the way he played the game...his competitive drive...his Killer Instinct...etc. You SHOULD love Kobe.

Kobe himself has those same quality's. JORDAN himself even knows this why do you think he keeps saying he perfers Kobe to LeBron etc?

Good post. Another thing to mention is that Jordan came along at a time when the NBA & ESPN figured out that if they market a player heavily, it's more $$$'s in their pockets. So you started to see "superstar calls" that didn't exist back in the day.

People will swear up and down that Jordan is the greatest of all time, when they have never seen any of the greats of the past play. And why is this? Because ESPN says so, and if it's on TV all the time, it must be true. Amazing.

[catch24]

The majority of the world already considers Kobe top 3 all-time.

Actually had the 2nd most #1 votes of every player behind only Michael Jordan.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=293#topOfList

Most of the world? He had 12,000 votes, and it's from ESPN. :oldlol:

[The_Yearning]

kobe also made statements about him staying on the same team his entire career. this was obviously a mild slap on some guy who put on a wizards jersey, as if he's suggesting he's got an upper hand on this department. maybe he's a little mad because goat only placed him on the top-10 all time guards.

It's a mild slap to most of the players in the top 10 list. The Black Mamba taking subliminal shots dude is next dimension:lol

[ranigma]

The majority of the world already considers Kobe top 3 all-time.

Actually had the 2nd most #1 votes of every player behind only Michael Jordan.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=293#topOfList
Bolded part is what actually makes this poll :facepalm

[MakeHistory78]

The majority of the world already considers Kobe top 3 all-time.

Actually had the 2nd most #1 votes of every player behind only Michael Jordan.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=293#topOfList
You are probably the most idiot person at the ISH.Really very idiot.AND THE BIGGEST TROLL.
Also this voting is tragic.Kids like you who never watched great players like MJ,Magic,Bird,Kareem vote for Kobe 3rd...
It's ridiculous.
And ROFL at the majority of world.