dwayne wade vs scottie pippen part II

[97 bulls]

A while back there was a thread made that was entitled wade vs pippen. And it was made to get an idea on who believed was the better of the 2. Some people believed pippen was better, while others believed wade was better and in their opinion, "its not even close". I stated that they were about equal when it comes to court contributions. And I stated that pippen had to share time with jordan which killed his stats. And more accolades. Although he wouldn't have won like he did.

My question is, after watching the heat these last 15 games how do you feel now? Who is better of around? Who would you feel more comfortable building a team around? Or even more who would it be easier to build a team around?

Im curious to see if anybodys mind has changed.

[KG5MVP]

wade>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pippen

[iamgine]

Wade is perfect as #1 and good as #2.

Pippen was great as #1 and perfect as #2.

[MrJohnWall]

lol @ peoples mind changing from 15 games

when we have seen 7 years of what he can do

[SoCalMike]

wow, a new and refreshing topic... well done.




:pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jesus, get over it. Pippen isn't on Wade's level. Never has been, never will be. Pippen "fit" better with a superstar like Jordan than Wade does with Lebron (and vic versa) because Pippen OF NECESSITY had to develop his all-around game - he had to do so because he wasn't anywhere near as good as Jordan and thus wouldn't be the alpha dog, and also because his own limitations forced him to become a cerebral player who played well within a system (the triangle). It also helped that Jordan was a vastly superior off the ball player as compared to Lebron/Wade. If he wasn't, despite Pippen's all-around game and unselfishnesss, you might have seen similar issues manifest since Pippen probably had the ball in his hands more than Jordan post-'91.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Jesus, get over it. Pippen isn't on Wade's level. Never has been, never will be. Pippen "fit" better with a superstar like Jordan than Wade does with Lebron (and vic versa) because Pippen OF NECESSITY had to develop his all-around game - he had to do so because he wasn't anywhere near as good as Jordan and thus wouldn't be the alpha dog, and also because his own limitations forced him to become a cerebral player who played well within a system (the triangle). It also helped that Jordan was a vastly superior off the ball player as compared to Lebron/Wade. If he wasn't, despite Pippen's all-around game and unselfishnesss, you might have seen similar issues manifest since Pippen probably had the ball in his hands more than Jordan post-'91.
Good post.

[97 bulls]

wow, a new and refreshing topic... well done.




:pimp:
Can anything be new and fresh for you after almost 27 thousand posts?

[Bigsmoke]

Wade in 2006 alone >>>> Pippen

and i'm a Bulls fan

[The_Yearning]

Wade is perfect as #1 and good as #2.

Pippen was great as #1 and perfect as #2.

Nah...he's not a perfect #1. Guy has been playing horrible since last season. Him and Durant are the two most overrated players right now.

[97 bulls]

Jesus, get over it. Pippen isn't on Wade's level. Never has been, never will be. Pippen "fit" better with a superstar like Jordan than Wade does with Lebron (and vic versa) because Pippen OF NECESSITY had to develop his all-around game - he had to do so because he wasn't anywhere near as good as Jordan and thus wouldn't be the alpha dog, and also because his own limitations forced him to become a cerebral player who played well within a system (the triangle). It also helped that Jordan was a vastly superior off the ball player as compared to Lebron/Wade. If he wasn't, despite Pippen's all-around game and unselfishnesss, you might have seen similar issues manifest since Pippen probably had the ball in his hands more than Jordan post-'91.
Forget jordan. Im talking wades capabilities vs pippens. And you do exactly what you normally do and that run to the offensive side of the ball. The funny thing is that your belief is wrong. You feel that whoever is the better scorer is the better player. Well explain miami this year. They have 3 great scorers and are battling to stay above .500. Why don't you admit that your theory is wrong. Like the assinine 5 carmellos vs 5 rodmans nonsense.

[97 bulls]

Wade in 2006 alone >>>> Pippen

and i'm a Bulls fan
One season doesn't a make a career. Your gonna honestly tell me that what wade did in one great playoff run trumps what pippen did in 6? Come on.

[1987_Lakers]

2009 Wade > Any version of Pippen. Get over it.

[97 bulls]

lol @ peoples mind changing from 15 games

when we have seen 7 years of what he can do
Ok so what if nothing changes and they finish with about 50 wins?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Forget jordan. Im talking wades capabilities vs pippens. And you do exactly what you normally do and that run to the offensive side of the ball. The funny thing is that your belief is wrong. You feel that whoever is the better scorer is the better player. Well explain miami this year. They have 3 great scorers and are battling to stay above .500. Why don't you admit that your theory is wrong. Like the assinine 5 carmellos vs 5 rodmans nonsense.

Because it's the COMPLEMENTARITY of their skill-sets that's the issue here. Pippen and Jordan's scoring games were complementary largely because Jordan was a masterful off the ball player, and because Pippen's own limitations as an offensive player forced him to be more of an opportunistic scorer who was dependent on the system than a dominant one-on-one scorer. Wade/Lebron have neither of these characteristics/limitations. They've never learned to play off the ball, and they've never been forced to buy into a system-based offense because of their overwhelming talent.

5 Melos would rape 5 Rodmans in a game. Get real. By a score of like 90-65 if that.

[knightfall88]

Well you can't really say Wade is just a 'good' 2nd option. I'm sure if he played with Dwight he'd be the best 2nd option ever.

[97 bulls]

Because it's the COMPLEMENTARITY of their skill-sets that's the issue here. Pippen and Jordan's scoring games were complementary largely because Jordan was a masterful off the ball player, and because Pippen's own limitations as an offensive player forced him to be more of an opportunistic scorer who was dependent on the system than a dominant one-on-one scorer. Wade/Lebron have neither of these characteristics/limitations. They've never learned to play off the ball, and they've never been forced to buy into a system-based offense because of their overwhelming talent.

5 Melos would rape 5 Rodmans in a game. Get real. By a score of like 90-65 if that.
And my response would be, what are you basing this on? In the 2 years in which he had his own team, he did better than wade minus 06. Why do you continue to try to compare the 2 based on wades strengths? Puttting pippen into a mold that wasn't condusive to his strengths? Im just saying, they got basically the same results with different types of games. And its showing here on this year miami heat team.

I mean, where this "finisher" that we've been hearing about? I just don't see a difference in the 2

[OldSchoolBBall]

And my response would be, what are you basing this on? In the 2 years in which he had his own team, he did better than wade minus 06. Why do you continue to try to compare the 2 based on wades strengths? Puttting pippen into a mold that wasn't condusive to his strengths? Im just saying, they got basically the same results with different types of games. And its showing here on this year miami heat team.

I mean, where this "finisher" that we've been hearing about? I just don't see a difference in the 2

They may have gotten similar results W-L wise, but Pippen was in a much more advantageous position to do so as compared to Wade. He had more talent to work with, far better coaching, a far better offensive system, and a team whose nucleus had been battle-tested and had played together for 5-6 seasons, with all of the trust on both ends that this engenders. These are not equivalent situations. You drop '94 Pippen as-is onto Wade's '09 or '10 Heat, with the same personnel and same coaching and same offensive system (or lack thereof), and they win at least 5 fewer games than they did with Wade.

[hitmanyr2k]

Because it's the COMPLEMENTARITY of their skill-sets that's the issue here. Pippen and Jordan's scoring games were complementary largely because Jordan was a masterful off the ball player, and because Pippen's own limitations as an offensive player forced him to be more of an opportunistic scorer who was dependent on the system than a dominant one-on-one scorer. Wade/Lebron have neither of these characteristics/limitations. They've never learned to play off the ball, and they've never been forced to buy into a system-based offense because of their overwhelming talent.

5 Melos would rape 5 Rodmans in a game. Get real. By a score of like 90-65 if that.

An opportunistic scorer is what you call a player like Shawn Marion. What offensive limitations did a prime Scottie Pippen have exactly? Other than not shooting the ball 20+ times (which isn't a skill but more of a mindset) what offensive skill did Pippen not possess? Could he drive and finish with the best of'em? Yep, with either hand. Did he have a midrange game? Yep. Did he have a 3 point shot? Yep. Did he have a high/low post game with great footwork? Yep. Could he move without the ball, catch and shoot? Yep. His only true weakness was his free throwing shooting and unwillingness to be a volume shooter (which is understandable considering the energy he put into defense).

This is Lebron's 8th season and he's still getting by on athleticism. It's either a long jumper or drive to the rim hard as he can which results in two points or a charge. We've all seen his post game which doesn't even consist of the most basic post moves. Wade is pretty much in the same boat...except he at least has a midrange game even though it's not looking too good right now.

And so far this season neither player have an ounce of what Pippen brought to the table defensively for his teams. And Lebron and Wade have no excuse not to bring the intensity on defense. Can't use that assinine "don't play defense to conserve energy for offense" excuse anymore.

[OldSchoolBBall]

An opportunistic scorer is what you call a player like Shawn Marion. What offensive limitations did a prime Scottie Pippen have exactly? Other than not shooting the ball 20+ times (which isn't a skill but more of a mindset) what offensive skill did Pippen not possess? Could he drive and finish with the best of'em? Yep, with either hand. Did he have a midrange game? Yep. Did he have a 3 point shot? Yep. Did he have a high/low post game with great footwork? Yep. Could he move without the ball, catch and shoot? Yep. His only true weakness was his free throwing shooting and unwillingness to be a volume shooter (which is understandable considering the energy he put into defense).

Pippen had definite offensive limitations as compared to guys like Lebron and Wade and MJ. Get real.

[Simple Jack]

A while back there was a thread made that was entitled wade vs pippen. And it was made to get an idea on who believed was the better of the 2. Some people believed pippen was better, while others believed wade was better and in their opinion, "its not even close". I stated that they were about equal when it comes to court contributions. And I stated that pippen had to share time with jordan which killed his stats. And more accolades. Although he wouldn't have won like he did.

My question is, after watching the heat these last 15 games how do you feel now? Who is better of around? Who would you feel more comfortable building a team around? Or even more who would it be easier to build a team around?

Im curious to see if anybodys mind has changed.

No one's opinion on ANYONE should change because of ~15 games.

[Mr. Grieves]

Wade has the flash, and is a better athlete.

But Pippin is a far better defender, knows how to play off the ball, and actually knows how to play as a team, something the Miami Diva's do not.

[iamgine]

Players like Pippen is one in a billion. Players like Wade, even though better and more talented as first option, is only one in a million. I would definitely pick Pippen before Wade in a draft.

[hitmanyr2k]

Pippen had definite offensive limitations as compared to guys like Lebron and Wade and MJ. Get real.

What kind of limitations though? That's all I'm asking. Besides not being a volume shooter and a subpar free throw shooter what are those limitations? Do you honestly think Scottie Pippen couldn't just half-ass it on defense and dominate the ball and shoot 21-22 times a game scoring 25+ if he wanted? Maybe his shooting percentage suffers doing that and his team would be worse off but do you honestly think he didn't have the capability to do that? Especially in this era where refs hand free throws out like candy? :oldlol: Cmon.

[Collie]

Pippen, while a good scorer, could not take over games offensively ala MJ, Kobe, LBJ or Wade. That's why, even when he was the primary scorer of the Bulls, he still put up almost the same numbers he did as a second option with the Bulls. While he was a good slasher, he could not get to any spot he wanted ala MJ or Wade. He was a good jumpshooter, but he will not hit improbable shots or get hot streaks like Kobe.

[magnax1]

Wade. It's not that close either.

[Soundwave]

Pippen is the better all around player because of his defense, but Wade is the more explosive scorer/clutch player.

If I were building a team from scratch I would take Wade, but if I already had a high volume scorer on my team, I would take Pippen.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What kind of limitations though? That's all I'm asking. Besides not being a volume shooter and a subpar free throw shooter what are those limitations? Do you honestly think Scottie Pippen couldn't just half-ass it on defense and dominate the ball and shoot 21-22 times a game scoring 25+ if he wanted? Maybe his shooting percentage suffers doing that and his team would be worse off but do you honestly think he didn't have the capability to do that? Especially in this era where refs hand free throws out like candy? :oldlol: Cmon.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that any player can be a first tier scorer a la MJ or Lebron if they shoot 20+ times. Fix that erroneous belief and maybe we can have a productive discussion.

[guy]

Forget jordan. Im talking wades capabilities vs pippens. And you do exactly what you normally do and that run to the offensive side of the ball. The funny thing is that your belief is wrong. You feel that whoever is the better scorer is the better player. Well explain miami this year. They have 3 great scorers and are battling to stay above .500. Why don't you admit that your theory is wrong. Like the assinine 5 carmellos vs 5 rodmans nonsense.

Wade isn't just a scorer. Either way, do you realize why great offensive players are given more credit then great defensive players? Because rarely do great defensive players actually have as much impact as great offensive players. Rarely do players completely take over games with their defense as they do with their offense. Scottie Pippen has rarely taken over games primarily with his defense as Wade has with his offense.

I swear its crazy to say this, but its almost like scoring has gotten underrated because of people's insistence to give more credit to great players that weren't great scorers.

[97 bulls]

Pippen had definite offensive limitations as compared to guys like Lebron and Wade and MJ. Get real.
Yes but he more than an "opportunistic" scorer. But like hitman stated, what about wade and lebrons defense, what about making their teammates better? It seems to me that the only thing wade has over pippen is scoring. And to be honest that's not by that much. I mean, you've even admitted that the league has made it easier for perimater players to score. That doesn't factor in when pippen is concerned?

[Jacks3]

lol @ this ridiculous Jordan stan acting like Pippen isn't on Wade's level. What a joke. What a clown.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ this ridiculous Jordan stan acting like Pippen isn't on Wade's level. What a joke. What a clown.

LMAO @ anyone who thinks that Pippen is on Wade's level.

[Jacks3]

LMAO @ anyone who thinks that Pippen is on Wade's level.
LMAO @ anyone who thinks he isn't.

[LA KB24]

2009 Wade > Any version of Pippen. Get over it.
This.

Wade is arguably the best player in the league when 100% healthy.
This thread is ridiculous.

[LA KB24]

LMAO @ anyone who thinks he isn't.
F*cking idiot. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

Pippen, while a good scorer, could not take over games offensively ala MJ, Kobe, LBJ or Wade. That's why, even when he was the primary scorer of the Bulls, he still put up almost the same numbers he did as a second option with the Bulls. While he was a good slasher, he could not get to any spot he wanted ala MJ or Wade. He was a good jumpshooter, but he will not hit improbable shots or get hot streaks like Kobe.
And ill ask you and soundwave the same question I asked old school, why isn't he doing that now? For all this "clutch" this and "scoring" that why hasn't he won more? I mean, let be honest, You guys are really just relying on 06.

[97 bulls]

Wade isn't just a scorer. Either way, do you realize why great offensive players are given more credit then great defensive players? Because rarely do great defensive players actually have as much impact as great offensive players. Rarely do players completely take over games with their defense as they do with their offense. Scottie Pippen has rarely taken over games primarily with his defense as Wade has with his offense.

I swear its crazy to say this, but its almost like scoring has gotten underrated because of people's insistence to give more credit to great players that weren't great scorers.
Don't get me wrong guy, scoring is important. But you guys are talking like pippen couldn't score. And like hitman said where is wades defense at right now. He's an opportunistic defender. He great at playing passing lanes but that's about it. You don't think the heat could use pippens all-around defense as opposed to wade just being able to score? Hell yeah they could.

[Samurai Swoosh]

LMAO @ anyone who thinks he isn't.
Dude ... I'm a Kobe fan ... but seriously, you're out of your god damn mind if you think Pippen is as good or better than Wade.

:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

This.

Wade is arguably the best player in the league when 100% healthy.
This thread is ridiculous.
Oh so now he not healthy? Or he must be 100% healthy? Come on, I think you're the rediculous one.

[1987_Lakers]

Dude ... I'm a Kobe fan ... but seriously, you're out of your god damn mind if you think Pippen is as good or better than Wade.

:oldlol:

:applause:

[LA KB24]

Oh so now he not healthy? Or he must be 100% healthy? Come on, I think you're the rediculous one. See 08-09, Wade was the best player in the league until he got injured again and his team went on a huge losing streak. That's why the MVP went to Bron. ;)

Sucks he can't stay healthy.

[97 bulls]

Dude ... I'm a Kobe fan ... but seriously, you're out of your god damn mind if you think Pippen is as good or better than Wade.

:oldlol:
Stop with the insults. Jacks has a right to his opinion just like you and me. I've asked this question 4 times now and nobody has or probably can't answer it. What has wade done in his career that trumps pippen?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Stop with the insults. Jacks has a right to his opinion just like you and me. I've asked this question 4 times now and nobody has or probably can't answer it. What has wade done in his career that trumps pippen?
He has a right to his opinion, doesn't make it any less asinine.

What has Wade done that trumps Pippen?

Won a ring as the #1 ALPHA DOG for his team.

[/end thread]

[1987_Lakers]

Stop with the insults. Jacks has a right to his opinion just like you and me. I've asked this question 4 times now and nobody has or probably can't answer it. What has wade done in his career that trumps pippen?

Maybe average 35/8/4/3 in the Finals. Average 30/5/8/2 on 49FG% in the 09 season. Pippen has had a better career than Wade at the moment, but Wade blows right past him in terms of peak play. Seriously, Peak Wade vs Jordan is a better debate.

[LA KB24]

I know it's hard to say this about a Finals MVP, but damn judging by some of the threads made on here, Wade has to be one of the most underrated players in the league. Comparing Pippen to Wade is a f*cking insult.

[97 bulls]

Maybe average 35/8/4/3 in the Finals. Average 30/5/8/2 on 49FG% in the 09 season. Pippen has had a better career than Wade at the moment, but Wade blows right past him in terms of peak play. Seriously, Peak Wade vs Jordan is a better debate.
Lol let's see him do it for more than 1 season or 4 playoff games against a crappy offense and having the refs gift him about 10 pts a game from the FT line.

[MrJohnWall]

People overrate scoring like crazy.
Pippens impact on a game>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wades
its not even close

[97 bulls]

He has a right to his opinion, doesn't make it any less asinine.

What has Wade done that trumps Pippen?

Won a ring as the #1 ALPHA DOG for his team.

[/end thread]
And id bet that wade would trade that one "apha dog" for two of pippens 6 championship rings. Weak argument.

[sundizz]

People on this board simply seem to have strong opinions about players, based on subjective preferences, not real objective thought. It's okay I guess, it just makes these discussions a lot more boring...thanks to all the people who actually replied seriously.

I think this a good question and to anyone that says Wade >>>> Pippen clearly is taking into account only statistics, and not actual game impact. I can see why people say Wade > Pippen or even Wade >> Pippen, but imo it's close. Personally, I think Pippen > Wade just slightly.

Scottie Pippen
-All NBA Defensive 1st team 8 years in a row
-93-94 season (without Jordan):
22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.8 blocks per game 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two less than the year before. All NBA 1st team, All NBA 1st team defense
-Game 6 against the Knicks in ECF, made the best facial of all time against Ewing...(not relevant, but I like this fact haha). Lost in 7 games in EC Semi's to the Knicks (mostly due to that BS technical in game 5 nonsense, but wtv).

Dwayne Wade
-08-09 Season 30.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpg 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting
-All NBA defensive 2nd team
-All NBA 1st team

This was the first time Pippen had a chance to play without Jordan and he shined. Wade peaked in 2009 and had an absolutely dominant statistical season. However, to me the separating factor is that while Wade scored significantly more, Pippen had an unique ability to be a game general, meaning attack when needed, pass when needed, etc. He had an innate floor generalship that is instinctual. He knew what needed to be done and how to make the team around run their offense to get the best possible results. In the All Star game (which doesn't count for much) he dominated. He just dominated everyone, dunking on people, running the floor, the point etc. He clearly, skill wise was one of those rare do-it-all players.

I think what really separates Pippen is his defense though. He was an absolute defensive monster that season. He didn't just have pretty numbers, he was amazing on defense. He could guard quick players, strong players, pgs-sf's.

Thus to me that prime version of Pippen is slightly better than Wade. Wade will have statistically the edge because of his style of play...but for a winning team I would rather have what Pippen brought to the table. It is a style suited for winning, and it is easy to build around that. Any team with a prime Pippen would never lack intensity on the defensive end, or a floor general. He is not the type of player that you can just throw two defenders at, because his impact is on the game as a whole, and his versatility made stopping him that much harder.
*Additional points for Pipp on being able to play with and without a ball dominant player. If Wade and Jordan were on the same team...Wade would be 2nd banana, and his game is ill suited to do anything but be the main man.

[Collie]

Wade and MJ would work fine, because unlike Lebron, MJ could be a dominant scorer off the ball.

[97 bulls]

People on this board simply seem to have strong opinions about players, based on subjective preferences, not real objective thought. It's okay I guess, it just makes these discussions a lot more boring...thanks to all the people who actually replied seriously.

I think this a good question and to anyone that says Wade >>>> Pippen clearly is taking into account only statistics, and not actual game impact. I can see why people say Wade > Pippen or even Wade >> Pippen, but imo it's close. Personally, I think Pippen > Wade just slightly.

Scottie Pippen
-All NBA Defensive 1st team 8 years in a row
-93-94 season (without Jordan):
22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.8 blocks per game 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two less than the year before. All NBA 1st team, All NBA 1st team defense
-Game 6 against the Knicks in ECF, made the best facial of all time against Ewing...(not relevant, but I like this fact haha). Lost in 7 games in EC Semi's to the Knicks (mostly due to that BS technical in game 5 nonsense, but wtv).

Dwayne Wade
-08-09 Season 30.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpg 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting
-All NBA defensive 2nd team
-All NBA 1st team

This was the first time Pippen had a chance to play without Jordan and he shined. Wade peaked in 2009 and had an absolutely dominant statistical season. However, to me the separating factor is that while Wade scored significantly more, Pippen had an unique ability to be a game general, meaning attack when needed, pass when needed, etc. He had an innate floor generalship that is instinctual. He knew what needed to be done and how to make the team around run their offense to get the best possible results. In the All Star game (which doesn't count for much) he dominated. He just dominated everyone, dunking on people, running the floor, the point etc. He clearly, skill wise was one of those rare do-it-all players.

I think what really separates Pippen is his defense though. He was an absolute defensive monster that season. He didn't just have pretty numbers, he was amazing on defense. He could guard quick players, strong players, pgs-sf's.

Thus to me that prime version of Pippen is slightly better than Wade. Wade will have statistically the edge because of his style of play...but for a winning team I would rather have what Pippen brought to the table. It is a style suited for winning, and it is easy to build around that. Any team with a prime Pippen would never lack intensity on the defensive end, or a floor general. He is not the type of player that you can just throw two defenders at, because his impact is on the game as a whole, and his versatility made stopping him that much harder.
*Additional points for Pipp on being able to play with and without a ball dominant player. If Wade and Jordan were on the same team...Wade would be 2nd banana, and his game is ill suited to do anything but be the main man.
I think this sums it up

[donald_trump]

what has wade done to be a better player? are you serious?

how about just being the better player? simple as that. hes better at basketball.

a better comparison is manu and pippen.

[Collie]

People on this board simply seem to have strong opinions about players, based on subjective preferences, not real objective thought. It's okay I guess, it just makes these discussions a lot more boring...thanks to all the people who actually replied seriously.

I think this a good question and to anyone that says Wade >>>> Pippen clearly is taking into account only statistics, and not actual game impact. I can see why people say Wade > Pippen or even Wade >> Pippen, but imo it's close. Personally, I think Pippen > Wade just slightly.

Scottie Pippen
-All NBA Defensive 1st team 8 years in a row
-93-94 season (without Jordan):
22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.8 blocks per game 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two less than the year before. All NBA 1st team, All NBA 1st team defense
-Game 6 against the Knicks in ECF, made the best facial of all time against Ewing...(not relevant, but I like this fact haha). Lost in 7 games in EC Semi's to the Knicks (mostly due to that BS technical in game 5 nonsense, but wtv).

Dwayne Wade
-08-09 Season 30.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpg 49.1%
Finished 3rd in MVP voting
-All NBA defensive 2nd team
-All NBA 1st team

This was the first time Pippen had a chance to play without Jordan and he shined. Wade peaked in 2009 and had an absolutely dominant statistical season. However, to me the separating factor is that while Wade scored significantly more, Pippen had an unique ability to be a game general, meaning attack when needed, pass when needed, etc. He had an innate floor generalship that is instinctual. He knew what needed to be done and how to make the team around run their offense to get the best possible results. In the All Star game (which doesn't count for much) he dominated. He just dominated everyone, dunking on people, running the floor, the point etc. He clearly, skill wise was one of those rare do-it-all players.

I think what really separates Pippen is his defense though. He was an absolute defensive monster that season. He didn't just have pretty numbers, he was amazing on defense. He could guard quick players, strong players, pgs-sf's.

Thus to me that prime version of Pippen is slightly better than Wade. Wade will have statistically the edge because of his style of play...but for a winning team I would rather have what Pippen brought to the table. It is a style suited for winning, and it is easy to build around that. Any team with a prime Pippen would never lack intensity on the defensive end, or a floor general. He is not the type of player that you can just throw two defenders at, because his impact is on the game as a whole, and his versatility made stopping him that much harder.
*Additional points for Pipp on being able to play with and without a ball dominant player. If Wade and Jordan were on the same team...Wade would be 2nd banana, and his game is ill suited to do anything but be the main man.

That Bulls team was also the perfect situation for Pippen to shine as a first option. Tough veterans used to winning, playing in a league that underestimated them, with a system that they knew well and rewarded great teamwork and movement.

In 98-99, just a year removed from a 19-6-6 season, Pippen struggled with a different system, putting up 14-6-5 on 42% shooting. Yeah, he was older, but watching him play, you knew that the Houston system did not maximize his strengths.

You really have to look it case by case. If you put Pippen on that 05-06 Heat team, could he have willed them to victory down 0-2 to the Mavericks like Wade did? For all the D-Whistle jokes, it was Wade's relentless attacking that won the championship for the Heat, something I don't think Pippen had in him.

But yeah, it's quite ridiculous to say Wade>>>> Pippen. At most, Wade is a tier above, or if you value defense, at least on the same tier.

[Micku]

Lol let's see him do it for more than 1 season or 4 playoff games against a crappy offense and having the refs gift him about 10 pts a game from the FT line.

Hah. Granted, superstars calls exist, but Wade is a driver. Drivers are going to get fouled. Wade is also one of the best in the game. If you can't stop him, foul him. Plus Wade is only a 75-77% FT shooter. It seems that you criticize a person for going to the line?

Fun facts with Jordan:

Jordan average 13.5 FTA in the 1989 playoffs on 87% shooting in 17 games.
10 FTA in 1990

Around 8 in his other years.

You are going to critic him for getting fouled? Dude, people getting fouled is apart of the game. And every year is the same thing when people complain about a foul. They'll complain if you call it, and they complain if you don't. If the refs were to call EVERY thing by the book then there will be a lot more fouls.

As for Pippen and Wade: I like what a guy in here posted earlier. Pippen is probably the best number 2 guy. Great number 1. Wade is the best number 1, great as number 2.

[Jacks3]

F*cking idiot. :facepalm
You're the ****ing idiot if you think Wade is on a different level than Pippen.

Seriously, Pip has become hugely underrated. The gap between them defensively is easily bigger than the offensive gap.

And LOL @ Wade being the best in the game.

Moron.

[Quickz]

Maybe average 35/8/4/3 in the Finals. Average 30/5/8/2 on 49FG% in the 09 season. Pippen has had a better career than Wade at the moment, but Wade blows right past him in terms of peak play. Seriously, Peak Wade vs Jordan is a better debate.

No offence but you didn't just say say peak wade vs peak jordan was debateable? lol, wade's peak was was about 3 years long...Jordans was about 8.

Anyways like one of the other posters said, Pippen impact of the game (not just for 1 or 2 years) was better then Wade's. But I'm not saying that it is isn't a close debate but Pippen but had the overall better game imo.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Honestly can't believe how unbelievably overrated Pippen has become. God. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Peak: Wade
Career: Pippen and it isn't even close in career terms right now. 6 rings>1 fluke ring.

Wade is great...when he can dominate the ball and manage to stay on the court.

Games Played by Wade by Season (ages 22-28)

2004 61
2005 77
2006 75
2007 51
2008 51
2009 79
2010 77

Games Played by Prime Pippen by Season (ages 25-32)

1991 82
1992 82
1993 81
1994 72
1995 79
1996 77
1997 82
1998 44

Wade has struggled immensely this year due to not being able to dominate the ball. He is averaging 21/6/4 on 44%--but is shooting a shocking 35% in Miami's losses (Lebron and Bosh do okay in Miami's losses. Connect the dots...). Pippen, in contrast, flourished with the all-time leader in FGA per game who consistently took more shots than anyone else year after year.

As far as accolades go they are similar.

Highest MVP finishes

Pippen 3rd, 5th (94', 96')
Wade 3rd, 5th (09', 10')

Keep in mind Pippen had his MVP voting dramatically deflated by Jordan for all but one year of his prime. Wade has enjoyed most of his career without similar downward pressure on his MVP voting.

All-NBA

Pippen: 1st team 3x (1st in all-NBA voting in 94'), 2nd team 2x, 3rd team 2x
Wade: 1st team 2x, 2nd team 2x, 3rd team 1x

There is a significant difference regarding all-Defensive teams. Wade has never made an all-Defensive first team while Pippen made 8 consecutive first teams--including being the leading vote getter four consecutive seasons (94'-97').


In 98-99, just a year removed from a 19-6-6 season, Pippen struggled with a different system, putting up 14-6-5 on 42% shooting. Yeah, he was older, but watching him play, you knew that the Houston system did not maximize his strengths.

How about his 98' finals back injury? It was obvious he was never the same athlete after that.


Tough veterans used to winning, playing in a league that underestimated them

They went 14-1 after Pippen came back from injury. They stood at 17-8 at that point. How did the eventual top 6 finishers in the East fare through 25 games?

New York 18-7
Atlanta 18-7
Chicago 17-8
Orlando 14-11
Indiana 10-15
Cleveland 11-14

They were in the hunt for the #1 seed practically all season. It is a myth that they flew under the radar and lucked into wins against teams expecting a team that was 1st-3rd all season to perform like a lottery team.


You really have to look it case by case. If you put Pippen on that 05-06 Heat team, could he have willed them to victory down 0-2 to the Mavericks like Wade did? For all the D-Whistle jokes, it was Wade's relentless attacking that won the championship for the Heat, something I don't think Pippen had in him.

Good points.

[guy]

Don't get me wrong guy, scoring is important. But you guys are talking like pippen couldn't score. And like hitman said where is wades defense at right now. He's an opportunistic defender. He great at playing passing lanes but that's about it. You don't think the heat could use pippens all-around defense as opposed to wade just being able to score? Hell yeah they could.

Okay, and Wade's a great all-around player as well on both sides of the ball (Pippen's clearly a better defender, just want to mention that before people jump all over me). That's something that I think gets lost when it comes to alot of great scorers. Players like Jordan, Kobe, and Wade are so great at scoring that they don't really get much credit for being great all-around players overall.

Anyway, forget all of the above and just answer this: Who is more capable of and who has more often taken a game over? Wade or Pippen. Clearly Wade. And what does he usually do it with? His scoring. This is why I say scoring has almost gotten underrated. Lets face it, defense, rebounding, and passing are obviously very important. But usually a great scorer is more impactful then anything else.

Pippen's defense does not = Wade's scoring. I think thats whats getting lost here. Even if they are ranked all-time in the same place for defense and offense (for example: Pippen's the 5th greatest defender ever and Wade's the 5th greatest scorer ever), that doesn't mean they are equal.

[97 bulls]

That Bulls team was also the perfect situation for Pippen to shine as a first option. Tough veterans used to winning, playing in a league that underestimated them, with a system that they knew well and rewarded great teamwork and movement.

In 98-99, just a year removed from a 19-6-6 season, Pippen struggled with a different system, putting up 14-6-5 on 42% shooting. Yeah, he was older, but watching him play, you knew that the Houston system did not maximize his strengths.

You really have to look it case by case. If you put Pippen on that 05-06 Heat team, could he have willed them to victory down 0-2 to the Mavericks like Wade did? For all the D-Whistle jokes, it was Wade's relentless attacking that won the championship for the Heat, something I don't think Pippen had in him.

But yeah, it's quite ridiculous to say Wade>>>> Pippen. At most, Wade is a tier above, or if you value defense, at least on the same tier.
Ok collie, what if pippen replaces wade on that miami heat team? Let's take pippen strengths and replace them with wades strengths. I honestly thiink pippen would've dominated that series just as much as wade. Can you imagine what would've happened to the mavericks if when pippen picked up a full court press on jason terry who is not a pg or his backup devin harris who was only like 22? Not to mention how easy it was to fluster dallas? Pippen would shut down their offense by choking of the dallas pgs and played great help defense on dirk nowitski. Something wade could never do. And he would've had some pretty good scoring games. Like I said earlier, stop trying to compare the 2 solely going by wades strengths.

[97 bulls]

Okay, and Wade's a great all-around player as well on both sides of the ball (Pippen's clearly a better defender, just want to mention that before people jump all over me). That's something that I think gets lost when it comes to alot of great scorers. Players like Jordan, Kobe, and Wade are so great at scoring that they don't really get much credit for being great all-around players overall.

Anyway, forget all of the above and just answer this: Who is more capable of and who has more often taken a game over? Wade or Pippen. Clearly Wade. And what does he usually do it with? His scoring. This is why I say scoring has almost gotten underrated. Lets face it, defense, rebounding, and passing are obviously very important. But usually a great scorer is more impactful then anything else.

Pippen's defense does not = Wade's scoring. I think thats whats getting lost here. Even if they are ranked all-time in the same place for defense and offense (for example: Pippen's the 5th greatest defender ever and Wade's the 5th greatest scorer ever), that doesn't mean they are equal.and I would submit to you the question, why isn't wades defense showing up now? If wade and lebron were as great at defense as they're made out to be, they'd be winning more. I mean let's face it, 20 ppg on 45% shooting is still pretty good. But wades not good at the little things. It shows guy. Wade isn't the same player as well as lebron when they cant dominate the ball. No excuses, just facts. And even if your wade as the 5th best perimeter scorer vs pippen as the 5th best perimeter defender example were true. Its the way wade scores. He obviously needs to get into a rythem. He needs to take alot of shots to get hot. Pippen doesn't need to do that. And pippen is great at every facet of defense. Wades a good gambler. And a solid defender. But he's not the 5th best perimeter scorer ever and pippen is arguably a top 3 defender ever.

[guy]

and I would submit to you the question, why isn't wades defense showing up now? If wade and lebron were as great at defense as they're made out to be, they'd be winning more. I mean let's face it, 20 ppg on 45% shooting is still pretty good. But wades not good at the little things. It shows guy. Wade isn't the same player as well as lebron when they cant dominate the ball. No excuses, just facts. And even if your wade as the 5th best perimeter scorer vs pippen as the 5th best perimeter defender example were true. Its the way wade scores. He obviously needs to get into a rythem. He needs to take alot of shots to get hot. Pippen doesn't need to do that. And pippen is great at every facet of defense. Wades a good gambler. And a solid defender. But he's not the 5th best perimeter scorer ever and pippen is arguably a top 3 defender ever.

Its been 17 games. I don't believe they'll be as good as most of us expected, but I also highly doubt they'll continue to be as bad as they've been and won't become title contenders. If the rest of Wade's career is like this then I'd probably say Pippen's greater career-wise. But that doesn't change that Wade was clearly better IMO from 06-10 the Pippen ever was. I wasn't really basing my observation on this current season.

[97 bulls]

Its been 17 games. I don't believe they'll be as good as most of us expected, but I also highly doubt they'll continue to be as bad as they've been and won't become title contenders. If the rest of Wade's career is like this then I'd probably say Pippen's greater career-wise. But that doesn't change that Wade was clearly better IMO from 06-10 the Pippen ever was. I wasn't really basing my observation on this current season.
Stats-wise sure. But im completely convinced that as long as bron and wade are together, wade will never get higher than 24 ppg. This is really why I made this thread. When everybody degraded pip cuz he never scored 30 ppg for a season, and I stated that while he would never be that type of a scorer, if he had his own team and a good 6 years, he'd avg about 25 ppg too. I remember roundball rock showing that in 94 before he got injured, he was avg about 24 ppg. He finished with 22. And then when people try to say that he didn't do it in 95, and my answer to that is that he couldn't, he had to be everything to that team. I mean, he lead that team in pts, rbds, asts, stls, and blks along with being the teams best man and help defender and full court press defender. And that team was on pace to go 44-38. Which was amazing considering that his next best player was 2nd year toni kukoc playing out of position. Im surprised he had the energy to score 21 ppg on 48%. Could wade ever do that?

[guy]

Stats-wise sure. But im completely convinced that as long as bron and wade are together, wade will never get higher than 24 ppg. This is really why I made this thread. When everybody degraded pip cuz he never scored 30 ppg for a season, and I stated that while he would never be that type of a scorer, if he had his own team and a good 6 years, he'd avg about 25 ppg too. I remember roundball rock showing that in 94 before he got injured, he was avg about 24 ppg. He finished with 22. And then when people try to say that he didn't do it in 95, and my answer to that is that he couldn't, he had to be everything to that team. I mean, he lead that team in pts, rbds, asts, stls, and blks along with being the teams best man and help defender and full court press defender. And that team was on pace to go 44-38. Which was amazing considering that his next best player was 2nd year toni kukoc playing out of position. Im surprised he had the energy to score 21 ppg on 48%. Could wade ever do that?

Pippen never averaged 24 ppg for even a month during that season. And Wade has pretty much led the Heat in everything but rebounds and blocks the past 2 seasons (and the blocks is barely by much and he still averaged the same amount as Pippen in 95), was their best defender, and they won 43 and 47 games. Lets not act like Wade has never carried bad supporting casts to relatively successful seasons.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen never averaged 24 ppg for even a month during that season. And Wade has pretty much led the Heat in everything but rebounds and blocks the past 2 seasons (and the blocks is barely by much and he still averaged the same amount as Pippen in 95), was their best defender, and they won 43 and 47 games. Lets not act like Wade has never carried bad supporting casts to relatively successful seasons.

What is with this fetish for scoring on ISH? Pippen was the de facto PG of his team. When did Magic, Isiah, Stockton, or Kidd average 25 let alone 30 ppg? People are confounded by him be designated a SF. Would the Bulls have won more or won less if Pippen took 25 shots a game? He did whatever was required to win, a la Russell.

Rebounding is hardly a minor category. Wade is averaging 4 boards a game this year, even though he is on a poor rebounding team. :eek:


was their best defender, and they won 43 and 47 games. Lets not act like Wade has never carried bad supporting casts to relatively successful seasons

Wade+scrubs=mid-40 wins. Pippen+scrubs=the same. Yet Wade is light years better than Pip? :confusedshrug:


Pippen never averaged 24 ppg for even a month during that season.

He averaged 23 ppg during the second half of that season. That is the statement he is referring to.

Speaking of fetishes, only on ISH is math that says 1>6 commonly accepted. How many people have had their posts revolve around "1" in this thread? Let's also not forget the circumstances of that "1"...

[Ne 1]

Great post Roundball Rock.

Honestly assigning an arbitrary criteria that top players must be an "offensive threat" is just naive. I guess this shows the prevailing stat hog mentality and double standards of today's fans. Somebody tried to tell me that Russell shouldn' be included in the top 5 because he wasn't an "offensive threat". Magic averaged less than 20 PPG, is he worthy to be put in the top 10? John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 15-20?

People put way too much stock on an individuals scoring stats to determine their greatness, especially when such scoring stats (and stats in general) don't tell a complete picture of the player's contributions.

[97 bulls]

Pippen never averaged 24 ppg for even a month during that season. And Wade has pretty much led the Heat in everything but rebounds and blocks the past 2 seasons (and the blocks is barely by much and he still averaged the same amount as Pippen in 95), was their best defender, and they won 43 and 47 games. Lets not act like Wade has never carried bad supporting casts to relatively successful seasons.
Wade has never taken on or shut down a team solely on defense. Pippen has. And wade has never been asked to do what pippen did in 94 and 95. No not asked, but expected. Im sure if pippen just had to play solid defense and gamble on steals and get an occasional block from the blindside of an opposing player non the less, he'd have more energy to score 27 ppg. In fact, wade couldn't do what pippen did in 94 or 95. This is a typical defense/offense play for pippen. Pick up the opposing teams PG full court then switch over to the teams best defender, then help out in the post, then crash the boards and get a rebound. Then bring the ball up on offense call the play, make sure everybody is in position and either set up a shot for himself or a teammate.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What is with this fetish for scoring on ISH? Pippen was the de facto PG of his team. When did Magic, Isiah, Stockton, or Kidd average 25 let alone 30 ppg? People are confounded by him be designated a SF. Would the Bulls have won more or won less if Pippen took 25 shots a game? He did whatever was required to win, a la Russell.

Rebounding is hardly a minor category. Wade is averaging 4 boards a game this year, even though he is on a poor rebounding team. :eek:



Wade+scrubs=mid-40 wins. Pippen+scrubs=the same. Yet Wade is light years better than Pip? :confusedshrug:



He averaged 23 ppg during the second half of that season. That is the statement he is referring to.

Good post, I will say several things.

1.Pippen was truly a factor on the boards. Some perieter guys will put up good rebound numbers, but they aren't truly in their boxing out and getting tough rebounds. Pippen could get tough rebounds among the big guys. Plus, he was a lock for between 7-9 rebounds from '95-'95, before Rodman joined the team and that's excellent for a small forward.

2.I like that you mention Pippen was the de facto point guard. Wade could average as many assists as Pippen, but Pippen seemed to be better at running the offense while Wade is a gifted passer as well, but he's a scorer first. Pippen wasn't a flashy passer, but he was smart and could put the passes right where they needed to be.

3.As far as scoring, well, it is obvious that Wade was a more gifted scorer just because of his quickness and ball handling skills as well as his mentality, but Pippen was no slouch in that department either. Not so much a great jump shooter, IMO, but he could make them and extended his range to 3 point distance, but he was very good at finding a pay to the basket, he could post up and he was great in the open court.

I'm not even giving an opinion either way, but I don't think Pippen should be written off as being in the right system, he could do a ton of things on the court. And really, you could say that 2006 was a great situation for Wade. Even though Wade was the man on the team, he benefitted a lot from Shaq's presence. The team was just 10-11 with Wade and without Shaq and Wade shot 44.7% without Shaq, but 51.6% with him. Now, he did play at a legendary level in the ECF and Finals, and he carried the team in the finals with one of the greatest performances ever, but as far as carrying a team for a season? When has he really done that with any more succes than Scottie did in '94? Or even Scottie in '95 when MJ was out was having as much success as Wade did in '09 and '10, and talk about carrying a team, I believe Scottie became one of the only players to lead a team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks that year.. Pippen's '94 cast was better than Wade's '09 cast or '10 cast, but he also got them farther.

Look at the 1996 ECF vs Orlando. Pippen had to guard Penny Hardaway who was one of the best players at the time, and while his shot was off most of the series, he rebounded, ran the offense, slowed down Hardaway considerably after a great game 1 by Penny and he found a way to score.

I think Scottie's 1992 season is also overlooked too much. He averaged 21/8/7/2/1 on 51% shooting on a 67-15 team while playing elite defense. He was a monster in the closeout games and while I'd have to watch the series again, he seemed like the second best player in the finals.

Personally, I don't think Scottie could've done what Wade did in the 2006 finals, I think very few could have, but I also don't think Wade could do what Scottie does either.

I don't think Wade can truly run the offense as well as Scottie, he can't rebound like him(yeah, he's a guard and Pippen is a SF, but we're still comparing what they can do as a player) and Wade doesn't have the defensive impact Scottie does.

Scottie could take the challenge of guarding the other team's best perimeter player whether it be a guard or a small forward while also getting steals and wreaking havoc defensively in other ways.

But I also don't think it's fair to say that Wade has to be the man. Him and Shaq were really 1.A/1.B that first season together and they had a lot of success, I believe they would've won a title if not for injuries. And I do give Wade credit for stepping up as the man in those 2005 playoffs and then really proving himself as a championship number 1 option the next year in the playoffs.

But back to carrying a team. Both could/can do it, but they'll do it in different ways. Wade will put a team on his back and score 30 ppg while dishing out 8 apg and being all over the floor, but Pippen can also get results with similar talent by doing it in a different way.

I think that Scottie was an all-time great who is unfairly written off as a mere sidekick and I think Wade is one of those rare guys to emerge who has the talent and clutch ability of legends.

I also won't say that Wade will never be able to co-exist with Lebron, or even necessarily use that as a criticism, you put 2 players who do similar things and it may not work. As others have mentioned, Jordan played off the ball more and carried the scoring load(and still set up his teammates as well), while Scottie gave them the secondary scorer, the de facto point guard and along with Jordan, 2 of the best perimeter defenders ever. So they had different roles, Wade and Lebron are use to being ball dominant players. Scottie didn't hold the ball much even when he was a point forward, everyone got involved.

I'll give Lebron and Wade some time, but even despite their talent, it wasn't a perfect pairing. Scottie and MJ were the perfect perimeter duo, IMO.

But lets not act like Scottie wasn't viewed as an elite player either, it look him a while to get recognition, but he was one of the premier stars.

7-time all-star(robbed in 1991 and would've made the '98 team if not for injuries)
3-time all-nba first team
finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1994, 5th in 1996, 7th in 1995 and 9th in 1992.

Not to mention the other all-nba selections and all-defensive selections.

Again, I'm not even going to say who was better, just my opinion on both players.

[97 bulls]

Great post shaq. And everything you said was spot on. Im just trying to show that what scottie pippen did wasn't easy. And with wade and bron having a chance to do similar, neither seem like they can or will. And watch those two great players have a hard time playing pippens role should give people a newfound respect for what pippen did. Even if it wasn't scoring 30 ppg.

[guy]

What is with this fetish for scoring on ISH?

LOL. This is what I'm talking about. Since when did scoring become underrated? What fetish? Scoring is a huge part of the game. And I barely even said anything about scoring in what you quoted. My point was that Wade was doing everything for the Heat the past few years as well.



Pippen was the de facto PG of his team. When did Magic, Isiah, Stockton, or Kidd average 25 let alone 30 ppg? People are confounded by him be designated a SF. Would the Bulls have won more or won less if Pippen took 25shots a game? He did whatever was required to win, a la Russell.

Right, usually every player does whatever is required to win. Just cause Wade is taking over 20 shots per game, it doesn't mean he wasn't doing what was required to win.

And please, this idea that Pippen was some Magic/Stockton type PG needs to stop. Its ridiculous. He wasn't anywhere close to the traditional PG those guys were. He was definitely great, but not in that way.



Rebounding is hardly a minor category. Wade is averaging 4 boards a game this year, even though he is on a poor rebounding team. :eek:

When did I say it wasn't?



Wade+scrubs=mid-40 wins. Pippen+scrubs=the same. Yet Wade is light years better than Pip? :confusedshrug:

I never said he was light years better? I think he's clearly better.




Speaking of fetishes, only on ISH is math that says 1>6 commonly accepted. How many people have had their posts revolve around "1" in this thread? Let's also not forget the circumstances of that "1"...

Cause its not that simple. Going by that logic, I believe that makes Pippen a top 10 player of all-time, behind Russell and a bunch of other Celtics, Horry, tied with Jordan and Kareem, and greater then Kobe, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, and Wilt. Sounds silly right? And I know what you're going to say "HORRY WAS A ROLE PLAYER THATS NOT A FAIR COMPARISON." Its extreme, but its using the same logic. Instead of that logic, we should take Horry's role and situation into account. We should do the same for Wade. We should do the same for Kareem. We should do the same for Pippen. And we should do the same for every player, even ones that never won a title.

[guy]

Wade has never taken on or shut down a team solely on defense. Pippen has. And wade has never been asked to do what pippen did in 94 and 95. No not asked, but expected. Im sure if pippen just had to play solid defense and gamble on steals and get an occasional block from the blindside of an opposing player non the less, he'd have more energy to score 27 ppg. In fact, wade couldn't do what pippen did in 94 or 95. This is a typical defense/offense play for pippen. Pick up the opposing teams PG full court then switch over to the teams best defender, then help out in the post, then crash the boards and get a rebound. Then bring the ball up on offense call the play, make sure everybody is in position and either set up a shot for himself or a teammate.

What? Wade was asked to do everything for the Heat the past 2 years. What the hell are you talking about?

Like I said, rarely do great defensive players "shut down" an entire team defensively by themselves, including Pippen. But a great offensive player can carry his team and will a team to victory through scoring and/or playmaking, and we've seen that a ton of times from the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and WADE. Pippen has rarely ever taken over a game to the extent that those guys have done on offense. Thats not a knock on Pippen. It just rarely happens, and when it does its usually from a big man. A great defender can't really take over a game by himself like a great offensive player can.

[Roundball_Rock]

I can't say much at the moment but three quick points:

1) Great post, as usual, ShaqAttack

2) guy, my post was a response to comments made by people in the thread, not just you.

3) Of course context matters when assessing championships. Context not only in the sense of team role but how that championship was one. Wade's "1" is among the most shady of all-time. Are we to put it in the same class as other "1's"? Is winning narrowly in 7 games equal to dominating in a sweep? Is winning against the 49 win Nets the same as beating a 60+ team? Is beating Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ equal to beating Drexler/Porter/Williams/Duckworth? Yet all I ever see is the broad designations "the man", "sidekick", and "roleplauer." No subtleties are examined.

I find it amazing that it actually is argued that 1 "ring as the man">6 "rings as a sidekick." Using this logic Billup's 1 ring>Pippen's 6 or in theory 10 if they were won as a "sidekick." Using this logic Pippen winning in 2000 would>him winning in 1996, a year he was #2 in all-NBA voting and #1 in all-Defensive voting, simply because he had a better case for being the best player on his team in 2000. Don't you see how ridiculous this fetish is? Volume does not matter. Consistency does not matter. Getting a referee's twinkle in his eyes as you are minutes away from de facto elimination>years of excellence.

4)


Like I said, rarely do great defensive players "shut down" an entire team defensively by themselves, including Pippen

98' NBA finals and 98' ECF anyone?

[97 bulls]

What? Wade was asked to do everything for the Heat the past 2 years. What the hell are you talking about?

Like I said, rarely do great defensive players "shut down" an entire team defensively by themselves, including Pippen. But a great offensive player can carry his team and will a team to victory through scoring and/or playmaking, and we've seen that a ton of times from the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and WADE. Pippen has rarely ever taken over a game to the extent that those guys have done on offense. Thats not a knock on Pippen. It just rarely happens, and when it does its usually from a big man. A great defender can't really take over a game by himself like a great offensive player can.
He was never asked or even expected to do what pippen did on the defensive side of the ball. Let's be real here guy, you feel defense doesn't really matter. Or if were gonna put a% on it, it would be 75% offense and 25% defense. There in tells why you feel the way you do.

[Alhazred]

I find it amazing that it actually is argued that 1 "ring as the man">6 "rings as a sidekick." Using this logic Billup's 1 ring>Pippen's 6 or in theory 10 if they were won as a "sidekick."


So should Scottie Pippen be ranked higher than Larry Bird because of his ring total, then? Scottie does have twice as many rings, after all, so if it's consistently winning that you value then Scottie must be the second greatest small forward of all-time, ranked right behind John Havlicek with his eight rings, right? A player's role on the team should be taken into account when measuring rings, as well as their overall skill and impact.

Also, was Billups even the best player on the 04 Pistons? I think the two Wallaces were arguably just as if not more valuable than Billups was. I had the impression that they were more of an ensemble cast, if anything.

In the end, I suppose it's apples and oranges. If you want a complimentary star who's versatile, plays exceptional defense and doesn't need the ball to be effecive, then you go with Pippen. If you need a closer who can carry an offense, you go with Wade.

If I had to personally choose one to build around, then Wade would be my choice.

[Round Mound]

Wade, only thing better is as a shooter and pure scorer

[Roundball_Rock]

So should Scottie Pippen be ranked higher than Larry Bird because of his ring total, then?

No, and for the same reasons Pippen>Horry. Bird simply was a better player. However, when comparing players of approximately similar value surely rings should be a factor--especially when it is proponents of the guy with 1 who are invoking rings to argue 1>6 and hence the guy with one (fluke) ring is clearly better than the 6-time champion.

What some are doing in this thread is operate from the assumption that Wade is light years ahead of Pippen and amusingly they cite his one ring as prime evidence of that. Wade has been nowhere to be seen in the playoffs other than for two seasons very early in his career. Pippen won 6 rings, made 9 conference finals (including Game 7 of the WCF without MJ; Wade has been "MIA" ever since Shaq left and did nothing whenever Shaq got hurt from 2005-2007 while we know what Pippen did without MJ in 94' :bowdown: ), and had 16 consecutive winning seasons. All that<<<the refs getting a twinkle in their eyes for Wade for four games in 2006 when Wade was minutes away from seeing his team go into a 0-3 hole in the finals? :confusedshrug: This is the same Wade who "led his team as the alpha dog" to an impressive 10-41 record in 2008. Yeah, Scottie had Michael. Well, Wade had Shaq. Wade now has Lebron, the MJ of this generation--AND Bosh. The results thus far? 9-8 with Wade shooting an abysmal 35% in Heat losses. Where is the magic Wade we saw for four games in 2006? Why not turn on the afterburners in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, or 2011?


Also, was Billups even the best player on the 04 Pistons?

Yes--and he has the all-important FMVP award to certify that, right? :oldlol:

The ensemble cast argument raises the issue of how important a player was to his team's success. If Player X was 35% responsible and Player Y 28% X was "the man" are we to completely ignore Y's contribution because 35>28? Is being 24% responsible as "the man" better than 28% as a "sidekick"? The ensemble cast argument is that, while there naturally are going to be some differences in the level of contribution key players made to their team, none of them are significant enough to warrant giving a particular player more credit.

[97 bulls]

So should Scottie Pippen be ranked higher than Larry Bird because of his ring total, then? Scottie does have twice as many rings, after all, so if it's consistently winning that you value then Scottie must be the second greatest small forward of all-time, ranked right behind John Havlicek with his eight rings, right? A player's role on the team should be taken into account when measuring rings, as well as their overall skill and impact.

Also, was Billups even the best player on the 04 Pistons? I think the two Wallaces were arguably just as if not more valuable than Billups was. I had the impression that they were more of an ensemble cast, if anything.

In the end, I suppose it's apples and oranges. If you want a complimentary star who's versatile, plays exceptional defense and doesn't need the ball to be effecive, then you go with Pippen. If you need a closer who can carry an offense, you go with Wade.

If I had to personally choose one to build around, then Wade would be my choice.
I think the point rock was trying to make was that the role scottie pippen played in his six championships trumps the role wade played on his one. Now if wade won multiple, not even 6 but multiple and had a role as big as he did in 06 then sure. But to act like pippen was a towel waiver in those 6 championships is wrong. It seems like people are saying, if your not an" alpha dog" then yourr useless. I mean pippen had a huge role in those wins.

[Teanett]

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that any player can be a first tier scorer a la MJ or Lebron if they shoot 20+ times. Fix that erroneous belief and maybe we can have a productive discussion.

not just any player could. but pip? definetely.

[Poochymama]

lol @ this ridiculous Jordan stan acting like Pippen isn't on Wade's level. What a joke. What a clown.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. Wade is clearly a better player than Pippen.

[Alhazred]

No, and for the same reasons Pippen>Horry. Bird simply was a better player. However, when comparing players of approximately similar value surely rings should be a factor--especially when it is proponents of the guy with 1 who are invoking rings to argue 1>6 and hence the guy with one (fluke) ring is clearly better than the 6-time champion.

When the one-time champion has the more dominant performance and does it while playing with an inferior team, then I can see why some people would rather pick him. Also, Wade when healthy has been the more dominant player than Pippen, imo.


What some are doing in this thread is operate from the assumption that Wade is light years ahead of Pippen and amusingly they cite his one ring as prime evidence of that. Wade has been nowhere to be seen in the playoffs other than for two seasons very early in his career. Pippen won 6 rings, made 9 conference finals (including Game 7 of the WCF without MJ; Wade has been "MIA" ever since Shaq left and did nothing whenever Shaq got hurt from 2005-2007 while we know what Pippen did without MJ in 94' :bowdown: ), and had 16 consecutive winning seasons. All that<<<the refs getting a twinkle in their eyes for Wade for four games in 2006 when Wade was minutes away from seeing his team go into a 0-3 hole in the finals? :confusedshrug:

1. Pippen in 2000 was playing on the Blazers who had already made the WCF the year before without him. He was certainly an important part of the team when they took L.A. to 7 games, but they were hardly scrubs.

2. Comparing Wade's career without Shaq to Pippen's 94 season is hardly a fair comparison. The '06 Heat were made up of mostly older vets who were either done or almost out of the league a few years later where as the 94 Bulls had prime Grant, a young, solid supporting cast and the GOAT coach. The fact of the matter is, Pippen has been blessed with far better casts and health compared to Wade. I mean, Wade took a team of scrubs to 47 wins last year who were far inferior to what Pippen had in 94. Do you really think that if Pippen had to work with what Wade had in '10 that he would fair any better?


This is the same Wade who "led his team as the alpha dog" to an impressive 10-41 record in 2008. Yeah, Scottie had Michael. Well, Wade had Shaq.

:oldlol: No offense to Shaq, but that is ridiculous. Shaq in 06 was nowhere near as good as prime Jordan was. Second, did Scottie ever have to play with a team as bad as the 08 Heat? The Heat were riddled with injuries after 06, including Wade, plus it's not like Shaq's record without Wade after Miami is much better aside from his one season in Cleveland.


Wade now has Lebron, the MJ of this generation--AND Bosh. The results thus far? 9-8 with Wade shooting an abysmal 35% in Heat losses. Where is the magic Wade we saw for four games in 2006? Why not turn on the afterburners in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, or 2011?

First of all, :oldlol: at Lebron being this generation's MJ. Second, the Heat have little to no depth outside of their big three, have terrible interior defense and also have an inferior coach. Again, would Scottie fair any better if he was in Wade's position this year, dealing with Lebron trying to take over his team and having to play with no bench?


Yes--and he has the all-important FMVP award to certify that, right? :oldlol:

The ensemble cast argument raises the issue of how important a player was to his team's success. If Player X was 35% responsible and Player Y 28% X was "the man" are we to completely ignore Y's contribution because 35>28? Is being 24% responsible as "the man" better than 28% as a "sidekick"? The ensemble cast argument is that, while there naturally are going to be some differences in the level of contribution key players made to their team, none of them are significant enough to warrant giving a particular player more credit.

Billups had a completely different situation to Wade's, though. He was hardly far and away the best player on the team. Wade carried the Heat against Dallas with a roster basically made up of a declining O'Neal and older players like Mourning, Payton and Walker agreeing to take smaller roles.

Had Pippen won all those years while playing with rosters just as bad as Wade's, then I can see your point, but that simply isn't the case.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think the point rock was trying to make was that the role scottie pippen played in his six championships trumps the role wade played on his one. Now if wade won multiple, not even 6 but multiple and had a role as big as he did in 06 then sure. But to act like pippen was a towel waiver in those 6 championships is wrong. It seems like people are saying, if your not an" alpha dog" then yourr useless. I mean pippen had a huge role in those wins.

Bingo! :applause: It isn't as if I am saying Pippen>Bird because 6>3.


Also, Wade when healthy has been the more dominant player than Pippen, imo.

Yes, but using that logic Yao is one of the all-time great centers and T Mac an all-time great SG. Wade's lack of durability thus far is a mark against him. Do 50 games of Wade>80 games of Pippen?


1. Pippen in 2000 was playing on the Blazers who had already made the WCF the year before without him. He was certainly an important part of the team when they took L.A. to 7 games, but they were hardly scrubs.

Relevance? The best player is the best player. There is no need to look at any facts beyond that, right?


Comparing Wade's career without Shaq to Pippen's 94 season is hardly a fair comparison. The '06 Heat were made up of mostly older vets who were either done or almost out of the league a few years later where as the 94

How about 2007, 2008? How about 2009 and 2010?

:oldlol: at invoking prime Grant in this thread. And? Wade is playing with prime Lebron and prime Wade and is 9-8!


Shaq in 06 was nowhere near as good as prime Jordan was.

Pippen without Jordan in 94': 51-21
Wade without Shaq in 06': 10-11

Wade without Shaq in 07': more mediocrity. ShaqAttack has the exact record. Take Shaq away and Wade couldn't even keep the team above 0.500.


plus it's not like Shaq's record without Wade after Miami is much better aside from his one season in Cleveland.

Shaq is 45 years old now. How about Shaq's record in LA and Orlando without Wade?


would Scottie fair any better if he was in Wade's position this year, dealing with Lebron trying to take over his team and having to play with no bench?

Yes!!!


Second, the Heat have little to no depth outside of their big three, have terrible interior defense and also have an inferior coach.

And? Why can't Mr. Alpha Dog get it done? He did it with old Shaq and Haslem, old Zo, et al. Why not with Lebron and Bosh? Why not go to the FT line 25 times a game again? :lol


Wade carried the Heat against Dallas with a roster basically made up of a declining O'Neal and older players like Mourning, Payton and Walker agreeing to take smaller roles.

Yet he can't do anything with Lebron and Bosh. The more time elapses, the more of a fluke his 3 1/4 game stretch in 06' looks...He is a great player and peak Wade>peak Pippen but the Wade was saw for 3 1/4 games in 06' looks like a fluke...

[2010splash]

Pippen because he was a much better winner.

What has Wade done other than contracting various STDs and riding the coattails of all time greats who were much better than him (Shaq, LeBron, and though he's no all time great, one could argue that Chris Bosh is better than Dwyane Wade now)?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ok collie, what if pippen replaces wade on that miami heat team? Let's take pippen strengths and replace them with wades strengths. I honestly thiink pippen would've dominated that series just as much as wade.

...


I honestly thiink pippen would've dominated that series just as much as wade.

...


pippen would've dominated that series just as much as wade.

...


just as much as wade.

My. God. :oldlol: :roll: :hammerhead:

[OldSchoolBBall]

not just any player could. but pip? definetely.

No, he couldn't. He had an inconsistent jumper, wasn't very explosive from a standstill or while changing pace, and didn't have the ballhandling ability to be a truly great, first tier scorer. If you think that he could even find 22 good shots per game to the point where he'd be making more than 44% of them (52% TS), you're kidding yourself (assuming he's the first option and the focus of the defense). You give legitimate first tier scorers like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Wade 22 shots and give Pippen 22 shots and all of them will average 3-6 more ppg than Pippen on the same # of attempts.

[97 bulls]

...



...



...



My. God. :oldlol: :roll: :hammerhead:
Lol good one old school. I gotta admit this post was funny

[97 bulls]

No, he couldn't. He had an inconsistent jumper, wasn't very explosive from a standstill or while changing pace, and didn't have the ballhandling ability to be a truly great, first tier scorer. If you think that he could even find 22 good shots per game to the point where he'd be making more than 44% of them (52% TS), you're kidding yourself (assuming he's the first option and the focus of the defense). You give legitimate first tier scorers like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Wade 22 shots and give Pippen 22 shots and all of them will average 3-6 more ppg than Pippen on the same # of attempts.
Let me ask you a question, how many ppg would wade avg in the 90s?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Let me ask you a question, how many ppg would wade avg in the 90s?

27-29, 30 on the high end depending on the year.

[97 bulls]

27-29, 30 on the high end depending on the year.
So you don't think the rule changes have given him a few extra points?

[Roundball_Rock]

27-29, 30 on the high end depending on the year.

:oldlol: This coming from a guy who constantly talks about how easy it is for perimeter players to score today. Yet Wade being transported back to the 90's would see no decrease in his scoring?

Of course, it is obvious why he took this position. If he held his usual position and said Wade would score less due to facing handchecking, etc. that implies that Pippen transported to today would score more against today's "weak defenses," which undermines his argument against Pippen versus modern perimeter players since that argument almost always revolves around scoring. 22 ppg versus 30 ppg is completely different than 25 ppg versus 30 ppg when the 25 ppg guy is superior in nearly every aspect of the game other than scoring.

[MrJohnWall]

27-29, 30 on the high end depending on the year.
Come on breh even you deep down inside dont believe that.
Wade would not get to the hoop as easy as he does now and he wont throw his body at people and get freethrows
Tmac, Kobe yes
Wade
would put up 24 25 max
on 44% shooting

[MrJohnWall]

:oldlol: This coming from a guy who constantly talks about how easy it is for perimeter players to score today. Yet Wade being transported back to the 90's would see no decrease in his scoring?

Of course, it is obvious why he took this position. If he held his usual position and said Wade would score less that implies that Pippen transported to today would score more against today's "weak defenses," which undermines his argument against Pippen versus modern perimeter players since that argument almost always revolves around scoring. Good job cornering him on this, 97! You can always tell what route OSB is going to take based on the thread topic. If the question was how much would MJ score today the answer would be 40 ppg on 62%. :lol
This guy is agenda driven. Kobe in the 90s is a scrub to get his point across.
Now Wade is beating in the 90s just like he could now?
come on son lol

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: This coming from a guy who constantly talks about how easy it is for perimeter players to score today. Yet Wade being transported back to the 90's would see no decrease in his scoring?

Of course, it is obvious why he took this position. If he held his usual position and said Wade would score less that implies that Pippen transported to today would score more against today's "weak defenses," which undermines his argument against Pippen versus modern perimeter players since that argument almost always revolves around scoring.
Its like your reading my mind, I was gonna say the same thing. But I bet if you ask him what jordan would do in todays league, he'd say easily 39 to 40 ppg. On 62% shooting.

[MrJohnWall]

Ill save you all the time

Oldschoolbball - The number 1 Jordan troll.

He will diminish anybody even Jordans own teammates to hype Jordan up.

[donald_trump]

:oldlol: This coming from a guy who constantly talks about how easy it is for perimeter players to score today. Yet Wade being transported back to the 90's would see no decrease in his scoring?

Of course, it is obvious why he took this position. If he held his usual position and said Wade would score less due to facing handchecking, etc. that implies that Pippen transported to today would score more against today's "weak defenses," which undermines his argument against Pippen versus modern perimeter players since that argument almost always revolves around scoring. 22 ppg versus 30 ppg is completely different than 25 ppg versus 30 ppg when the 25 ppg guy is superior in nearly every aspect of the game other than scoring.

from all the posts on oldschool i have seen, when asked about jordans scoring today he has always said jordan would average a similar amount of points though he usually stated his FG% might be slightly worse.
so much for that point.

and if we're playing that game, how good would a physical defender such as pippen really be in todays league? well hed only play 25mpg because hed foul out.

great logic. like players dont adapt given the situation... :rolleyes:

its like dealing with a bunch of idiots on here.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: This coming from a guy who constantly talks about how easy it is for perimeter players to score today. Yet Wade being transported back to the 90's would see no decrease in his scoring?

Of course, it is obvious why he took this position. If he held his usual position and said Wade would score less due to facing handchecking, etc. that implies that Pippen transported to today would score more against today's "weak defenses," which undermines his argument against Pippen versus modern perimeter players since that argument almost always revolves around scoring. 22 ppg versus 30 ppg is completely different than 25 ppg versus 30 ppg when the 25 ppg guy is superior in nearly every aspect of the game other than scoring.
LOL @ Loco saying Wade would get 27-29 in the 90's when he consistently mentions how all these guys would see their PPG drop 2-3 PPG with hand-checking.


LMAO

[Fatal9]

and if we're playing that game, how good would a physical defender such as pippen really be in todays league? well hed only play 25mpg because hed foul out.
Pippen's biggest strength was his team defense (though his man to man defense was great too), which would be even deadlier today with zone D and the lack of team defense restrictions. Check the '98 finals to see how dominant he could be defensively when he gets away with what used to be illegal defense back in the day.

[jrong]

This is still Wade. Quite clearly.

[Roundball_Rock]

from all the posts on oldschool i have seen, when asked about jordans scoring today he has always said jordan would average a similar amount of points though he usually stated his FG% might be slightly worse.
so much for that point.

So now we know OSB's sock puppet account. :roll: He consistently makes absurd claims about perimeter players from the past not named Scottie seeing their numbers significantly improve if transported today due to the 2000's rule changes. Conversely, perimeter players from today transported back to the 90's would see their number decline, primarily due to handchecking.


Its like your reading my mind, I was gonna say the same thing. But I bet if you ask him what jordan would do in todays league, he'd say easily 39 to 40 ppg. On 62% shooting.


LOL @ Loco saying Wade would get 27-29 in the 90's when he consistently mentions how all these guys would see their PPG drop 2-3 PPG with hand-checking.


LMAO

Exactly. :oldlol: He especially is inconsistent when it comes to Pippen. Pippen mysteriously would not see any increase in his scoring today even though scoring now is a piece of cake for perimeter players according to him.


Pippen's biggest strength was his team defense (though his man to man defense was great too), which would be even deadlier today with zone D and the lack of team defense restrictions. Check the '98 finals to see how dominant he could be defensively when he gets away with what used to be illegal defense back in the day.

:applause:

[Alhazred]

Yes, but using that logic Yao is one of the all-time great centers and T Mac an all-time great SG. Wade's lack of durability thus far is a mark against him. Do 50 games of Wade>80 games of Pippen?

So then can we blame Pippen for his poor performance in '99, then? I mean, if injuries can't be used as an excuse, that is.


Relevance? The best player is the best player. There is no need to look at any facts beyond that, right?

The point is that the Blazers were already a great team without him. They went from making the WCF in '99 to... making the WCF in '00. So although Scottie certainly brought plenty to the table, the team already had a fairly loaded roster before he got there, and had proven that they could win. Did Wade ever have that kind of roster to work with? The closest he's had is playing with a ball-hog who had one of the biggest meltdowns in playoff history and a face-up power forward who refuses to play defense.


How about 2007, 2008? How about 2009 and 2010?


:oldlol: at invoking prime Grant in this thread. And? Wade is playing with prime Lebron and prime Wade and is 9-8!

Miami hasn't had anywhere close to as good a lineup as the '94 Bulls since '06. Hell, last year Michael Beasley was their best player. And quit downgrading Grant. Orlando went from getting swept out of the first round in '94 to making the Finals with him the very next season. I also don't think I need to tell you about how Chicago was barely a .500 team before Jordan came out of retirement.


Pippen without Jordan in 94': 51-21
Wade without Shaq in 06': 10-11

Wade without Shaq in 07': more mediocrity. ShaqAttack has the exact record. Take Shaq away and Wade couldn't even keep the team above 0.500.

Then please explain why right after he left Miami Shaq's 1 1/2 seasons in Phoenix resulted in a first round loss and then missing the playoffs altogether the next season with Steve Nash? Then to add insult to injury, they made the WCF their first season without him. No, Miami's woes were caused by much more than simply Shaq leaving. Injuries and lack of depth was also one of their main problems. Blaming it strictly on Shaq leaving is too simplistic.


Shaq is 45 years old now. How about Shaq's record in LA and Orlando without Wade?

Shaq wasn't even playing at that level in Miami, so relevance?


Yes!!!

:facepalm Really? He's not going to have any issues with Lebron hogging the ball and acting as "point-forward"? He's not going to get pissed when Bosh lets players go straight past him to the hoop? He's not going to hate dealing with a mediocre coach like Spoelstra? Don't kid yourself.


And? Why can't Mr. Alpha Dog get it done? He did it with old Shaq and Haslem, old Zo, et al. Why not with Lebron and Bosh? Why not go to the FT line 25 times a game again? :lol

Yet he can't do anything with Lebron and Bosh. The more time elapses, the more of a fluke his 3 1/4 game stretch in 06' looks...He is a great player and peak Wade>peak Pippen but the Wade was saw for 3 1/4 games in 06' looks like a fluke...

Lebron, Bosh and Wade are a poor fit, there have been people saying this since they joined together. As for Wade's '06 Finals being a fluke? Come on, if that was a fluke, then what was his performance against Boston last year? What about when he led Miami to a six game second round series in his rookie year?

Look, I really don't have time to debate this for long, I have some college work to catch up on, so I'm just going to say that although I disagree that Pippen was better than Wade, I can accept that you and other posters think otherwise because of Pippen's advantages on defense, rebounding and other areas. Still, I think you're trying to hard to discredit Wade to prop up Pippen. Wade is hardly at fault for most of his teams underachieving. If you replaced Wade with any other star player on the Heat from '07 to '10, like say Lebron or Kobe, I really don't think they would have fared that much better in the win-loss column. Just my two cents.

[97 bulls]

So then can we blame Pippen for his poor performance in '99, then? I mean, if injuries can't be used as an excuse, that is.



The point is that the Blazers were already a great team without him. They went from making the WCF in '99 to... making the WCF in '00. So although Scottie certainly brought plenty to the table, the team already had a fairly loaded roster before he got there, and had proven that they could win. Did Wade ever have that kind of roster to work with? The closest he's had is playing with a ball-hog who had one of the biggest meltdowns in playoff history and a face-up power forward who refuses to play defense.



Miami hasn't had anywhere close to as good a lineup as the '94 Bulls since '06. Hell, last year Michael Beasley was their best player. And quit downgrading Grant. Orlando went from getting swept out of the first round in '94 to making the Finals with him the very next season. I also don't think I need to tell you about how Chicago was barely a .500 team before Jordan came out of retirement.



Then please explain why right after he left Miami Shaq's 1 1/2 seasons in Phoenix resulted in a first round loss and then missing the playoffs altogether the next season with Steve Nash? Then to add insult to injury, they made the WCF their first season without him. No, Miami's woes were caused by much more than simply Shaq leaving. Injuries and lack of depth was also one of their main problems. Blaming it strictly on Shaq leaving is too simplistic.



Shaq wasn't even playing at that level in Miami, so relevance?



:facepalm Really? He's not going to have any issues with Lebron hogging the ball and acting as "point-forward"? He's not going to get pissed when Bosh lets players go straight past him to the hoop? He's not going to hate dealing with a mediocre coach like Spoelstra? Don't kid yourself.



Lebron, Bosh and Wade are a poor fit, there have been people saying this since they joined together. As for Wade's '06 Finals being a fluke? Come on, if that was a fluke, then what was his performance against Boston last year? What about when he led Miami to a six game second round series in his rookie year?

Look, I really don't have time to debate this for long, I have some college work to catch up on, so I'm just going to say that although I disagree that Pippen was better than Wade, I can accept that you and other posters think otherwise because of Pippen's advantages on defense, rebounding and other areas. Still, I think you're trying to hard to discredit Wade to prop up Pippen. Wade is hardly at fault for most of his teams underachieving. If you replaced Wade with any other star player on the Heat from '07 to '10, like say Lebron or Kobe, I really don't think they would have fared that much better in the win-loss column. Just my two cents.wow you really threw out common sense with this post Alharazed. Almost everything you said was worded without context. Meaning you never consideredd age or the situation or anything. Like for instance your response to wade having multiple season being injured was to refer to pippens one season when he missed almost 40 games. Wade has had about 4 season in an 8 yr career where hes missed a considerable amount of time. Pippen has had 1 in about 11 relevant seasons. And I defy you to even begin to show how the heat didn't have a team that was as good as the 94 bulls talentwise.

[Alhazred]

wow you really threw out common sense with this post Alharazed. Almost everything you said was worded without context. Meaning you never consideredd age or the situation or anything. Like for instance your response to wade having multiple season being injured was to refer to pippens one season when he missed almost 40 games. Wade has had about 4 season in an 8 yr career where hes missed a considerable amount of time. Pippen has had 1 in about 11 relevant seasons.

I was referring to Pippen's first year as a Rocket, not '98. I've heard Roundball excuse Pippen's first round exit with the Rockets before because of Pippen's back injury from '98 despite him playing all 50 games and averaging 40 minutes per game. My question is, why are Wade's injuries used to discredit him but Pippen is given a pass, even when playing a full season? Also, didn't Pippen suffer from injuries during the playoffs in 96 and 97, as well? I could have sworn Roundball mentioned them before when defending Scottie's poor shooting percentages during the playoffs those years.


And I defy you to even begin to show how the heat didn't have a team that was as good as the 94 bulls talentwise.

Strictly speaking of the post- Shaq Heat from 08 to 10, yes, the '94 Bulls were more talented and had better coaching. Michael Beasley was the Heat's second best player, hardly better than '94 Grant. The Bulls were a more experienced team with good chemistry, three championships under their belt and had Phil Jackson coaching them in '94. Are you telling me that you would rather have the '10 Heat minus Wade as a supporting cast vs. the '94 Bulls minus Pippen? I really hope you're kidding.

[Day La Ghetto]

even arguing for pippen blows my mind

[Roundball_Rock]

The point is that the Blazers were already a great team without him

And? The Lakers did fine without Kobe last year too. The Bulls replaced Jordan with a D-League scrub after MJ retired 2 days before training camp and finished only 2 games out of first place in the East. The Celtics without KG remained a top 5 team. And on and on. According to "the man" advocates, "the man" status is all that matters. There is no need to look at context.


Did Wade ever have that kind of roster to work with?

Wade has the reigning 2-time MVP and another elite player in Bosh. He also had Shaq when Shaq was robbed of the 05' MVP. Pippen's best teammate in Portland was Rasheed Wallace. :oldlol:


quit downgrading Grant.

Grant is nowhere near Lebron or even Bosh.


Orlando went from getting swept out of the first round in '94 to making the Finals with him the very next season.

Penny's emergence as a superstar was the primary reason for that improvement.


I also don't think I need to tell you about how Chicago was barely a .500 team before Jordan came out of retirement.

And? We are talking about the same core with one player removed. The 95' team was significantly different than the 94', 93' teams--particularly after it lost almost its entire frontcourt other than Pippen (Grant, Cartwright--starters--Williams) plus John Paxson. The 95' Bulls had only 2 of the same starters as the 94' team. Since MJ never got hurt for any length of time in Chicago after 86' all we can look at is 94'. (CHI had the same starting lineup in 94' except obviously at SG) In Wade's case we have several examples of Wade "leading" the Heat to .500 records without Shaq from 2005-07. The funny thing is Shaq did just fine without Wade during those seasons. What does that tell you?


Then please explain why right after he left Miami Shaq's 1 1/2 seasons in Phoenix resulted in a first round loss and then missing the playoffs altogether the next season with Steve Nash?

Shaq's "first round loss" was hardly Shaq's fault. Shaq played well on a 55 win team that ran into the Spurs, who had the benefit of the luckiest 3 pointer in playoff history. Shaq won 46 games in 09'. Good point, though. If Wade was in the West he would not have sniffed the playoffs in recent years.


No, Miami's woes were caused by much more than simply Shaq leaving.


Shaq wasn't even playing at that level in Miami, so relevance?

Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 05': 1-1
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 05': 5-3

Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 06': 3-1
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 06': 11-11

Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 07': 16-8
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 07': 10-11

Totals

Miami with Shaq, without Wade: 20-9
Miami with Wade, without Shaq: 26-25

This is a perfect example why all this talk about being "the man" versus a "sidekick" is meaningless. The evidence suggests the "sidekick" was more valuable to the W-L column than "the man" for the Heat.


He's not going to have any issues with Lebron hogging the ball and acting as "point-forward"?

He had no problem playing with the all-time leader in FGA per game, nor did he have trouble splitting ballhandling/playmaking duties with Stoudemire in Portland.


As for Wade's '06 Finals being a fluke? Come on, if that was a fluke, then what was his performance against Boston last year?

Wade has been playing 0.500 ball practically his entire career aside from 05' and 06' and his 10-41 season in 08'. This is the record of an "alpha dog" who put up one of the greatest finals performance ever? That suggests it was a fluke.


If you replaced Wade with any other star player on the Heat from '07 to '10, like say Lebron or Kobe, I really don't think they would have fared that much better in the win-loss column.

Perhaps, although Lebron+scrubs=60+ wins two consecutive seasons and a NBA finals trip. Wade+scrubs=0.500 perennially. Lebron could have done better, although we saw Kobe+scrubs=0.500 as well, although it is hard to see Kobe ever going 10-41.

The problem is Wade's all-time greatness is almost entirely based on 3 1/4 games four years ago. What has he done since then?


I've heard Roundball excuse Pippen's first round exit with the Rockets before because of Pippen's back injury from '98 despite him playing all 50 games and averaging 40 minutes per game. My question is, why are Wade's injuries used to discredit him but Pippen is given a pass, even when playing a full season?

Pippen was 33 and past his prime. He also had the added mileage of 2 Olympics, 8 deep playoff runs. He had the mileage of a 35 or 36 year old by 99'. He was healthy in 99' but that 98' injury robbed him of his athleticism. Saying he was healthy then is like saying Grant Hill has been healthy in recent years and acting as if Hill is anywhere near the same player he was prior to his woes. Moreover, how in the world does that compare to young Wade missing considerable chunks of time in his career?


Also, didn't Pippen suffer from injuries during the playoffs in 96 and 97, as well?

Yes, yet he found ways to stay on the court and win championships. That is a credit to him.

[32jazz]

response to post #103^^^^^^^

Roundball you forgot to mention not only did that 94 Bulls team only finish 2 games out of first place with Pippen & MJ being replaced by Pete "Friggin" Myers(CBA journeyman) , but Pippen missed 10 games that season in which the Bulls plummeted to 3-10(.300 pct)

So with Pippen they were 52-20(.734 winning pct versus only 695 winning pct the season before with MJ) & on pace it seems to actually IMPROVE from the previous season.

With Pete Myers in the place of MJ.:facepalm

Individual scoring is sooooooo overrated. Draft day Pippen dreamed of being a PG in this League(ala MAgic although he was more a 'point forward' instead) & it just wasn't in his personality like his famous teammate to be a ballhog. Pippen certainly could have scored close to 30 ppg(as well as many good scorers in the League) ,but I don't know how efficient he would be or his teams success.

Byron Scott/Worthy outscored Magic most seasons ,but NO one would claim they were more important/better than Magic.

Individual scoring is soooo overrated.

[Ne 1]

:oldlol: @ people still clinging to Wade's '06 Finals performance taking 97 free throws.

Pippen has 6 rings and is one of the few players ever to come close to averaging a triple double in the NBA Finals--and he did it three times, which is more than anyone not named Magic Johnson.

[Ne 1]

response to post #103^^^^^^^

Roundball you forgot to mention not only did that 94 Bulls team only finish 2 games out of first place with Pippen & MJ being replaced by Pete "Friggin" Myers(CBA journeyman) , but Pippen missed 10 games that season in which the Bulls plummeted to 3-10(.300 pct)

So with Pippen they were 52-20(.734 winning pct versus only 695 winning pct the season before with MJ) & on pace it seems to actually IMPROVE from the previous season.

With Pete Myers in the place of MJ.:facepalm

Individual scoring is sooooooo overrated. Draft day Pippen dreamed of being a PG in this League(ala MAgic although he was more a 'point forward' instead) & it just wasn't in his personality like his famous teammate to be a ballhog. Pippen certainly could have scored close to 30 ppg(as well as many good scorers in the League) ,but I don't know how efficient he would be or his teams success.

Byron Scott/Worthy outscored Magic most seasons ,but NO one would claim they were more important/better than Magic.

Individual scoring is soooo overrated.

Funny thing is that if Pippen and Grant played as many games as they did in '93 that year, the Bulls would have won 59-61 games in '94 (they were a ridiculous 44-16 in games Grant and Pippen played). Not only would they have topped the win total of the '93 Bulls by replacing MJ with Pete Myers, but also the #1 seed in the East and second best record in the league. Not a bad cast and "second option" Mike was working with huh...

[DCL]

you can add pip to almost any team, and it's gonna be an improvement. his game just bonds the elements together even if he isn't dominating the ball. in fact, i can't really think of a scenario where a prime pippen would be "useless" to any team regardless of roster. the coach would really have to be extremely clueless to not know how to use him. pip can play with a group of superstars or a bunch of scrubs -- he just finds his role anyway because that's his game.

we see how wade is doing with lebron, but if pip was playing with lebron, i doubt they'd have this sh!tty record.

[guy]

The problem is Wade's all-time greatness is almost entirely based on 3 1/4 games four years ago. What has he done since then?


Huh? He was at the very least a top 3-4 player for 3.5 seasons (2006, half of 2007, 2009, 2010). He's a top 3 player from the time period of 2006-today. LOL @ 3 games only.

In those 3.5 seasons I mentioned, Wade was better then Pippen has ever been IMO. But like I said, if the big 3 perform nowhere near expectations and Wade specifically does not, I'll have no problem ranking Pippen over Wade for his career. So far they haven't, but while I don't think the Heat will ever be as good as they were initially hyped up to be, I also think they wont' be anywhere near as bad they've been. Its still to early to completely write them off.

And by the way, Pippen might've been the Blazers best player, but that was an "ensemble" cast just like the 04 Pistons. Maybe I've just skimmed through the posts (sorry at work), but I don't really understand anyone who would try to compare that to traditional no. 1 options.

[guy]

He was never asked or even expected to do what pippen did on the defensive side of the ball. Let's be real here guy, you feel defense doesn't really matter. Or if were gonna put a% on it, it would be 75% offense and 25% defense. There in tells why you feel the way you do.

Wade was pretty easily the best defensive player on his team the past few years, and there were numerous times he saved a game with clutch defense. With the scrubs on his team the past few years, he was definitely expected to step up on defense.

When have I ever said defense doesn't matter? I think its 50/50. My point is 1 individual can't impact a game defensively as much as they can offensively. It rarely ever happens, and if it does its usually by big men. Defense is much more of a team effort, while with offense a team's best player can just tell everyone to move out of the way and take over by himself (not most of the time of course, but way more often then the equivalent on defense). Its not a knock on Pippen or great defensive players in general, its just the nature of the game.

Look at Jordan. He's the greatest perimeter scorer and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever. There were obviously countless games where he just took over games with his scoring. How often did he take over games to the same extent with his defense? Not nearly as much.

[Heilige]

Jesus, get over it. Pippen isn't on Wade's level. Never has been, never will be. Pippen "fit" better with a superstar like Jordan than Wade does with Lebron (and vic versa) because Pippen OF NECESSITY had to develop his all-around game - he had to do so because he wasn't anywhere near as good as Jordan and thus wouldn't be the alpha dog, and also because his own limitations forced him to become a cerebral player who played well within a system (the triangle). It also helped that Jordan was a vastly superior off the ball player as compared to Lebron/Wade. If he wasn't, despite Pippen's all-around game and unselfishnesss, you might have seen similar issues manifest since Pippen probably had the ball in his hands more than Jordan post-'91.


/thread

[32jazz]

Funny thing is that if Pippen and Grant played as many games as they did in '93 that year, the Bulls would have won 59-61 games in '94 (they were a ridiculous 44-16 in games Grant and Pippen played). Not only would they have topped the win total of the '93 Bulls by replacing MJ with Pete Myers, but also the #1 seed in the East and second best record in the league. Not a bad cast and "second option" Mike was working with huh...

Had the Bulls not lowballed the rebuilding/hapless Mavericks, who basically gave away veteran guard Derek Harper,(for Big Cat Campbell & late 1st rd pick) & got Harper instead of their archrival Knicks who knows what happens.

Bulls pushed them to 7 games DESPITE the phantom foul(worst playoff call in critical situation in NBA history) on Pippen in game 5 were they go down 2-3 instead of leading 3-2 going home.


But for some STUPID reason the Bulls decided to stick with Pete 'Friggin' Myers:facepalm

Can't say they would have beaten the Rockets(always give champs the benefit) ,but most likely would have returned to the Finals. I am still not sure Pippen would have been appreciated unless the Bulls could have won it all.


Pippen is not appreciated by the public who obviously obssess over INDIVIDUAL scoring. MJ's 30ppg were absorbed into the offense showing that it wasn't really even necassary for him to take the unprecendented FGA's he did(League record 9 times he led League in FGA's).

Pippen just didn't look to take 25 shots per game UNLESS he had the hot hand or the offense became stagnate/mismatch,etc,........

[97 bulls]

Wade was pretty easily the best defensive player on his team the past few years, and there were numerous times he saved a game with clutch defense. With the scrubs on his team the past few years, he was definitely expected to step up on defense.

When have I ever said defense doesn't matter? I think its 50/50. My point is 1 individual can't impact a game defensively as much as they can offensively. It rarely ever happens, and if it does its usually by big men. Defense is much more of a team effort, while with offense a team's best player can just tell everyone to move out of the way and take over by himself (not most of the time of course, but way more often then the equivalent on defense). Its not a knock on Pippen or great defensive players in general, its just the nature of the game.

Look at Jordan. He's the greatest perimeter scorer and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever. There were obviously countless games where he just took over games with his scoring. How often did he take over games to the same extent with his defense? Not nearly as much.I've never questioned wade as a 1-1 defender. What I said is he's never been or expected to be or asked to have or assume the role that pippen had defensively with the bulls. And yes there aren't many players that could dominate a game from the defensive side of the ball. And the few that could were centers. Russel, rodman, mutombo are all examples of big men that could put their stamp on the game without scoring big numbers. But pippen is the only guy that could do that from the perimeter. His defense was as great as a great defensive big. Wades not anywhere near that.

[97 bulls]

Had the Bulls not lowballed the rebuilding/hapless Mavericks, who basically gave away veteran guard Derek Harper,(for Big Cat Campbell & late 1st rd pick) & got Harper instead of their archrival Knicks who knows what happens.

Bulls pushed them to 7 games DESPITE the phantom foul(worst playoff call in critical situation in NBA history) on Pippen in game 5 were they go down 2-3 instead of leading 3-2 going home.


But for some STUPID reason the Bulls decided to stick with Pete 'Friggin' Myers:facepalm

Can't say they would have beaten the Rockets(always give champs the benefit) ,but most likely would have returned to the Finals. I am still not sure Pippen would have been appreciated unless the Bulls could have won it all.


Pippen is not appreciated by the public who obviously obssess over INDIVIDUAL scoring. MJ's 30ppg were absorbed into the offense showing that it wasn't really even necassary for him to take the unprecendented FGA's he did(League record 9 times he led League in FGA's).

Pippen just didn't look to take 25 shots per game UNLESS he had the hot hand or the offense became stagnate/mismatch,etc,........
You're right on all accounts. But one guy that respected pippens contributions was jordan. So much that when they traded pippen, he retired. Just think of how many records and milestones he left on the table cuz pippen wasn't rolln with him. In his retirement, the first person he gave credit to was pippen. He then proceded to bash everyone else other than phil jackson. Including the players he beat. That says alot when a guy like jordan puts that much stock in a guy that people on this board AND JORDANS FANS TO BOOT go out of their way to degrade.

Let me ask another question, if jordan were reading this conversation were having, whose side do you think he would take?

[raptorfan_dr07]

It's a lot closer than people think. The gap between them, is rather miniscule, if there's a gap at all. Like I always say, scoring is probably the most overrated aspect of basketball. Pip did everything else on the court, better than Wade. Guys like Wade, Lebron, Kobe get hyped up to be the "Next Jordan", when in actuality, they're much closer to Pippen.

@97 Bulls, no doubt he'd roll with Pip. He's always gone out of his way to praise Pippen. Once Phil came in and Jordan learned the importance of trusting his teammates(Pippen) and the Triangle Offense, it was over for the rest of the league.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Like I always say, scoring is probably the most overrated aspect of basketball.
:oldlol:

[guy]

I've never questioned wade as a 1-1 defender. What I said is he's never been or expected to be or asked to have or assume the role that pippen had defensively with the bulls. And yes there aren't many players that could dominate a game from the defensive side of the ball. And the few that could were centers. Russel, rodman, mutombo are all examples of big men that could put their stamp on the game without scoring big numbers. But pippen is the only guy that could do that from the perimeter. His defense was as great as a great defensive big. Wades not anywhere near that.

No he couldn't IMO. I also wouldn't put Rodman in that category as he's not a traditional big man at all. I was thinking more along of the lines of someone like Hakeem, Robinson, or Duncan. Thats not really my point.

I'm not sure you really understand what I'm saying. I guess an easier way to put it is that there are alot more limits for an individual to take over a game defensively vs. being able to do it offensively, which is why it doesn't happen as often, including in Pippen's case (to the same extent at least depending on your definition of "take over").

[97 bulls]

It's a lot closer than people think. The gap between them, is rather miniscule, if there's a gap at all. Like I always say, scoring is probably the most overrated aspect of basketball. Pip did everything else on the court, better than Wade. Guys like Wade, Lebron, Kobe get hyped up to be the "Next Jordan", when in actuality, they're much closer to Pippen.

@97 Bulls, no doubt he'd roll with Pip. He's always gone out of his way to praise Pippen. Once Phil came in and Jordan learned the importance of trusting his teammates(Pippen) and the Triangle Offense, it was over for the rest of the league.
Actually raptorfan, my gripe is not so much a person feeling wade is better, it when people say he wayyyyyyyyy better and when they use terms like "its not even close" and wade>>>>>>>>>>>>>pippen. To be honest, I even hate the term "sidekick" or "robin". Robin was a little orphan that batman took under his wing. And he was about 16 years old. Sometimes he even got in batmans way. And the fact is that the term for the bulls big 3 was superman (jordan) batman (pippen) and rodman (need I say more?). Batman was known for his vesitility and being more of a cerebral superhero. That fit pippen to a T.

And its just funny how disrespected pippen is in this forum. To the point that in his appreciation thread, people are degrading him. Just be honest, you guys that degrade pippen feel he's on the same line as andre iguadala, or stephen jackson. And those two, and guys like them could never do what pippen was able to do. Id actually have more respect for you guys if you'd admit it.

[97 bulls]

No he couldn't IMO. I also wouldn't put Rodman in that category as he's not a traditional big man at all. I was thinking more along of the lines of someone like Hakeem, Robinson, or Duncan. Thats not really my point.

I'm not sure you really understand what I'm saying. I guess an easier way to put it is that there are alot more limits for an individual to take over a game defensively vs. being able to do it offensively, which is why it doesn't happen as often, including in Pippen's case (to the same extent at least depending on your definition of "take over").
But he did. Scottie pippen would literally choke of the head (point guard) of the offense. He could pick up full court, play great man defense and help out in the post etc. How many guys can do that sucessfully? Now that's not the same as the way a center dominates a game by blocking and altering shots etc but it definately got the same results. And I do understand what your saying. Pippen didn't take over games by scoring 15 straight points. But he took over games with his versitility and defense. And got the same results. Scoring is more glamoursous. That's all. But if he got the same results, why is a great scorer better? Why does wade being a "finisher" trump pippen being a finisher on defense. I mean, wade taking about 20 shots a game and taking 10 fts a game, he better be finishing some of these games. And how great of a finisher is wade when he has been back to the finals in 5 years?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Come on breh even you deep down inside dont believe that.
Wade would not get to the hoop as easy as he does now and he wont throw his body at people and get freethrows
Tmac, Kobe yes
Wade
would put up 24 25 max
on 44% shooting
Why wouldn't Wade be able to get to the basket? There was no soft zone defenses waiting help side. It was all man to man defense.

The hand check rule would affect some players, but not someone with the speed and quickness of Wade.

Wade plays very similar to a young Jordan. And he's got a very good mid range game, and a 3 point shot off the dribble that is pretty good as well.

He wouldn't get to the line as much, but are you telling me Wade isn't significantly better than the next best SGs of the 90's? IE Drexler, Richmond, Miller?

Wade is better than all three of those players, easily.

[New York Knicks]

I'll take Prime Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Why wouldn't Wade be able to get to the basket? There was no soft zone defenses waiting help side. It was all man to man defense.

The hand check rule would affect some players, but not someone with the speed and quickness of Wade.

Wade plays very similar to a young Jordan. And he's got a very good mid range game, and a 3 point shot off the dribble that is pretty good as well.

He wouldn't get to the line as much, but are you telling me Wade isn't significantly better than the next best SGs of the 90's? IE Drexler, Richmond, Miller?

Wade is better than all three of those players, easily.
Here we go again, and with a bulls fan no less. Wade is significantly better than drexler miller and richmond? Significantly? Maybe I don't know what significant means

[Samurai Swoosh]

Here we go again, and with a bulls fan no less. Wade is significantly better than drexler miller and richmond? Significantly? Maybe I don't know what significant means
I guess you don't, bro. What does me being a Bulls fan have to do with the argument? I'm supposed to be relentlessly in favor of whatever in question has to do with a Chicago Bull?

Ask Loki ... Wade > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

McGrady > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Allen > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Carter > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Pierce > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Iverson > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

How is this even a question to anyone who has watched all these players play in context?

Drexler had inflated numbers due to the pace his Blazers teams played. He couldn't drive left, and didn't dribble with his head up.

The best SG out of the Drexler, Miller, Richmond bunch is actually Mitch.

But the modern SG / SF obviously based their games of MJ, thus making them poor man's versions of him, but even a poor man's version of Jordan is better than all his contemporaries that played during Jordan's era.

2000's on saw SG that could do it all. Score, playmakers, put the ball on the floor, rebound, etc

[Papaya Petee]

Prime Wade>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime Pippen

we have been through this a thousand times. Stop disrespecting Wade.

[Ne 1]

Prime Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime Wade

we have been through this a thousand times. Stop disrespecting Pippen.

[catch24]

Prime Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime Wade

we have been through this a thousand times. Stop disrespecting Pippen.

So Pippen is better than Prime Kobe? Gotcha.

[97 bulls]

I guess you don't, bro. What does me being a Bulls fan have to do with the argument? I'm supposed to be relentlessly in favor of whatever in question has to do with a Chicago Bull?

Ask Loki ... Wade > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

McGrady > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Allen > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Carter > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Pierce > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Iverson > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

How is this even a question to anyone who has watched all these players play in context?

Drexler had inflated numbers due to the pace his Blazers teams played. He couldn't drive left, and didn't dribble with his head up.

The best SG out of the Drexler, Miller, Richmond bunch is actually Mitch.

But the modern SG / SF obviously based their games of MJ, thus making them poor man's versions of him, but even a poor man's version of Jordan is better than all his contemporaries that played during Jordan's era.

2000's on saw SG that could do it all. Score, playmakers, put the ball on the floor, rebound, etc
I was just joking as far you being a bulls fan. But none of the SGs you mentioned even played for the bulls. And who the **** is loki? Is he the end all to be all when it comes to SGs? In not arguing as to whether or not the SGs you mentioned are better than another, but none of them are significantly better than the others. The only SGs that are significantly better than the players you mentioned are jordan and bryant. When you say significant that's without any doubt. And all those guards have a distinct advantage over ther other in some way shape or form. Mitch was far and away the best post player of the list you mentioned, and he's in the top 5 as far as shooting. Ray allen and reggie miller are the best pure shooters. They all have their strengths and weakness.

[Lebron23]

Last month Pippen > LeBron.

Prime Pippen was a great NBA player, but he's not capable of putting up Jordanesque stats in the Regular Season, and in the playoffs.

He was a terrific 2nd scoring option for the Chicago 1990's Bulls. When he was the number one option of the Bulls he only averaged under 23 ppg, and he failed to led his team in the NBA Finals.

Wade has already proven that he's a better playoffs performer than Prime Scottie Pippen when he won the 2006 NBA Finals MVP.

Wade's Regular Season, Playoffs, and Finals Stats > Pippen's Regular Season, Playoffs, and Finals Stats.

I still believe that LeBron and Wade are option 1a. and 1b. for the Miami Heat.

[Lebron23]

I'll take Prime Pippen.

http://www.nba.com/media/hornets/270_Wade_12Sep2006.JPG

[Alhazred]

And? The Lakers did fine without Kobe last year too. The Bulls replaced Jordan with a D-League scrub after MJ retired 2 days before training camp and finished only 2 games out of first place in the East. The Celtics without KG remained a top 5 team. And on and on. According to "the man" advocates, "the man" status is all that matters. There is no need to look at context.

The Celtics lost in the second round in '09 and that was with him missing the playoffs but still playing 57 games. Also, The Celtics don't really have a clear leader. KG is arguably the most important piece, but he isn't a clear cut #1 option like prime Jordan and Shaq were. The Bulls didn't just add Myers, there were multiple additions to the roster that year. Also, the Lakers going 9 games without Kobe is hardly comparable.


Wade has the reigning 2-time MVP and another elite player in Bosh. He also had Shaq when Shaq was robbed of the 05' MVP. Pippen's best teammate in Portland was Rasheed Wallace. :oldlol:

So one great player + one decent player + scrubs and no bench = better than a proven contender?


Grant is nowhere near Lebron or even Bosh.

No, but he was certainly a better complimentary player. He could also play defense in the post and could rebound. He didn't need the ball in his hands constantly to be effective like lebron, either.


Penny's emergence as a superstar was the primary reason for that improvement

Yeah, I'm sure Penny scoring .9 points more per game in the playoffs is what put them over the edge. :oldlol:


And? We are talking about the same core with one player removed.

The 95' team was significantly different than the 94', 93' teams--particularly after it lost almost its entire frontcourt other than Pippen (Grant, Cartwright--starters--Williams) plus John Paxson. The 95' Bulls had only 2 of the same starters as the 94' team. Since MJ never got hurt for any length of time in Chicago after 86' all we can look at is 94'. (CHI had the same starting lineup in 94' except obviously at SG) In Wade's case we have several examples of Wade "leading" the Heat to .500 records without Shaq from 2005-07. The funny thing is Shaq did just fine without Wade during those seasons. What does that tell you?

Paxson, Williams and Cartwright were already replaced adequately in '94 with Kerr, Kukoc, Wennington and Longley.

Steve Kerr: Replaced Paxson and averaged twice as many points as Paxson did in '93 while playing an additional 23 more games more than Paxson did in '93. By the way, Paxson only laced up for 27 games in '94 while averaging a whopping 2.6 points per game, the lowest average of any Bull on the roster that year.

Toni Kukoc: A valuable addition off the bench and a future Sixth Man of the Year.

Bill Wennington and Luc Longley: Both were more productive than Cartwright and several years younger. Also, Cartwright and Scott Williams both only played 80 games in '94 between them. Despite that, the Bulls played fine without them.

So really, when you get down to it, the loss of Grant was the only real loss the Bulls suffered after '94.


Shaq's "first round loss" was hardly Shaq's fault. Shaq played well on a 55 win team that ran into the Spurs, who had the benefit of the luckiest 3 pointer in playoff history. Shaq won 46 games in 09'. Good point, though. If Wade was in the West he would not have sniffed the playoffs in recent years.

Why the Hell are you using quotations? :lol The Suns lost, period. Not only that, but it was almost a sweep. Also, only winning 46 games with Steve Nash is pretty pathetic seeing as how the Suns made the WCF the year after he left. I would love to see what Wade could do playing with Nash and Amare.


Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 05': 1-1
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 05': 5-3

Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 06': 3-1
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 06': 11-11

Miami with Shaq, without Wade in 07': 16-8
Miami with Wade, without Shaq in 07': 10-11

Totals

Miami with Shaq, without Wade: 20-9
Miami with Wade, without Shaq: 26-25

This is a perfect example why all this talk about being "the man" versus a "sidekick" is meaningless. The evidence suggests the "sidekick" was more valuable to the W-L column than "the man" for the Heat.

You seem to have left off Shaq's record in '08 before he bailed for Phoenix. Let me remind you that the Heat with Shaq that year were 8-25 with them going 2-8 in his final ten games. What happened there? :confusedshrug: If Shaq was the sole reason for Miami's success, then why did they perform so poorly with him that year?


He had no problem playing with the all-time leader in FGA per game, nor did he have trouble splitting ballhandling/playmaking duties with Stoudemire in Portland.

Jordan could play off the ball, dominate on defense and had an excellent post-game. Is Lebron capable of doing any of those well? Also, splitting ballhandling duties with Stoudemire is hardly the same thing. We're talking about a player with an ego bigger than Wilt Chamberlain's who wants to dominate the ball even with Wade and Bosh on his team. What makes you think he would be willing to share it with Scottie?


Wade has been playing 0.500 ball practically his entire career aside from 05' and 06' and his 10-41 season in 08'. This is the record of an "alpha dog" who put up one of the greatest finals performance ever? That suggests it was a fluke.

:rolleyes:


Perhaps, although Lebron+scrubs=60+ wins two consecutive seasons and a NBA finals trip. Wade+scrubs=0.500 perennially. Lebron could have done better, although we saw Kobe+scrubs=0.500 as well, although it is hard to see Kobe ever going 10-41.

I would hardly call the supporting cast Lebron had in Cleveland "scrubs". If they were that poor, than the Heat should have a much better record, yes? As for the Heat going 10-41 with Wade, the only thing I can say is that they were atrocious that year. Like I said before, even with Shaq they could only muster an 8-25 record.


The problem is Wade's all-time greatness is almost entirely based on 3 1/4 games four years ago. What has he done since then?

His teams haven't done much, but he's been an excellent performer the past few seasons without Shaq. Did you see what he did against Boston last year in the first round?


Pippen was 33 and past his prime. He also had the added mileage of 2 Olympics, 8 deep playoff runs. He had the mileage of a 35 or 36 year old by 99'. He was healthy in 99' but that 98' injury robbed him of his athleticism. Saying he was healthy then is like saying Grant Hill has been healthy in recent years and acting as if Hill is anywhere near the same player he was prior to his woes.

:facepalm Grant Hill hasn't seen his prime in ten years and hasn't played more than 32 minutes a game since he was 32. We're talking about a 1 year difference between Pippen in '98 and '99. Even when Scottie came back in '98 after missing nearly half the season, he still averaged 19 points per game, yet his scoring dropped by nearly 5 points when he joined Houston, despite playing all 50 games and averaging 40 minutes a game. It's no secret that Scottie hated playing in Houston and detested their system which involved him bringing up the ball and dumping it into Barkley or Olajuwon.


Moreover, how in the world does that compare to young Wade missing considerable chunks of time in his career?

First of all, the only years Wade has missed significant time is '07 and '08. Other than that and his rookie year, he hasn't played less than 70 games in any season. He is hardly injured constantly like Yao Ming or Tracy McGrady were, which is an absurd comparison to make.

Second, my point is that if Wade's going to be held accountable for his team's underperforming even when he's injured, then why is the same not done for Pippen? Injuries affect players of all ages, and if Pippen was good enough to play a full season while averaging 40 minutes per game, then he can accept part of the blame for when his team lost.


Yes, yet he found ways to stay on the court and win championships. That is a credit to him.

Having Jackson, Jordan and a loaded roster certainly didn't hurt, either.

[guy]

But he did. Scottie pippen would literally choke of the head (point guard) of the offense. He could pick up full court, play great man defense and help out in the post etc. How many guys can do that sucessfully? Now that's not the same as the way a center dominates a game by blocking and altering shots etc but it definately got the same results. And I do understand what your saying. Pippen didn't take over games by scoring 15 straight points. But he took over games with his versitility and defense. And got the same results. Scoring is more glamoursous. That's all. But if he got the same results, why is a great scorer better? Why does wade being a "finisher" trump pippen being a finisher on defense. I mean, wade taking about 20 shots a game and taking 10 fts a game, he better be finishing some of these games. And how great of a finisher is wade when he has been back to the finals in 5 years?

A team can be playing horrible on defense and 4 out of 5 of them can be playing horrible on offense. But if there's 1 guy on that team thats on a hot streak and can't be stopped on offense, a team will have still have a decent chance at winning the game. We've seen that plenty of times with the dominant scorers we're talking about.

On the other hand, a team can be playing horrible on offense, and 4 out of 5 them can be playing horrible on defense. Even if that 1 guy is playing out of this world defense by shutting down his man, blocking shots, causing turnovers, intimidating the offense, etc., that team still has almost no chance at winning.

Thats the difference I'm getting at. Defense is much more of a team effort. For a team to be that dominant on defense, its more of a team effort. While a team can be dominant on offense because of just 1 guy on a hot streak at times. I'm not saying thats good for a team if they live and die by that, but you can use that logic to apply to the game as a whole, and thats why I'm saying its much harder for an individual to takeover games to that extent with defense vs. offense.

[Ne 1]

http://www.nba.com/media/hornets/270_Wade_12Sep2006.JPG

http://a.espncdn.com/media/nba/2004/1005/photo/a_pippen_hi.jpg

[hitmanyr2k]

Why wouldn't Wade be able to get to the basket? There was no soft zone defenses waiting help side. It was all man to man defense.

The hand check rule would affect some players, but not someone with the speed and quickness of Wade.

Wade plays very similar to a young Jordan. And he's got a very good mid range game, and a 3 point shot off the dribble that is pretty good as well.

He wouldn't get to the line as much, but are you telling me Wade isn't significantly better than the next best SGs of the 90's? IE Drexler, Richmond, Miller?

Wade is better than all three of those players, easily.


You say he plays like Jordan. Well, not even Prime Jordan with all of his athletic gifts came anywhere near Wade's free throw average. It's not just the hand-check rule. It was a different culture in the 90's period when swingmen actually played with integrity. You didn't have players screaming like ******* or flailing to get a cheap whistle (except Reggie Miller with that kick out the leg move that thankfully got banned). Can you imagine any of the great players of the 90's screaming and throwing their limbs every which way during a shot? I sure as hell can't. You have to ask yourself in the 90's is Wade going to get to the foul line 10-11 times a game on less than 20 shots like he has in recent years? Are the refs of the 90's going to bail him out when he verbal flops and falls to the ground like he got shot? He has the nickname D-Whistle for a reason. His free throw attempts inflate the hell out of his scoring average.

[guy]

I guess you don't, bro. What does me being a Bulls fan have to do with the argument? I'm supposed to be relentlessly in favor of whatever in question has to do with a Chicago Bull?

Ask Loki ... Wade > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

McGrady > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Allen > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Carter > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Pierce > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Iverson > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

How is this even a question to anyone who has watched all these players play in context?

Drexler had inflated numbers due to the pace his Blazers teams played. He couldn't drive left, and didn't dribble with his head up.

The best SG out of the Drexler, Miller, Richmond bunch is actually Mitch.

But the modern SG / SF obviously based their games of MJ, thus making them poor man's versions of him, but even a poor man's version of Jordan is better than all his contemporaries that played during Jordan's era.

2000's on saw SG that could do it all. Score, playmakers, put the ball on the floor, rebound, etc

Carter, Allen, and Pierce were never as good as Drexler. Only AI in his MVP season was probably better. T-Mac was only better for a few years. I think you're really underrating him.

[97 bulls]

Carter, Allen, and Pierce were never as good as Drexler. Only AI in his MVP season was probably better. T-Mac was only better for a few years. I think you're really underrating him.
Even mitch richmond. That guy was a beast.

[Teanett]

Thats the difference I'm getting at. Defense is much more of a team effort. For a team to be that dominant on defense, its more of a team effort. While a team can be dominant on offense because of just 1 guy on a hot streak at times. I'm not saying thats good for a team if they live and die by that, but you can use that logic to apply to the game as a whole, and thats why I'm saying its much harder for an individual to takeover games to that extent with defense vs. offense.

while that is true, you can't count on one player to get on a hot streak consistently. it might happen once or twice during a series.
however, you could count on pippen to play disrupting defense every game.
the defense wins the series 4-1.

[Teanett]

Ask Loki ... Wade > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

McGrady > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Allen > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Carter > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Pierce > Drexler, Miller, Richmond

Iverson > Drexler, Miller, Richmond



theres no valid argument in stating that.
look:
spreewell > wade
so what?

[guy]

while that is true, you can't count on one player to get on a hot streak consistently. it might happen once or twice during a series.
however, you could count on pippen to play disrupting defense every game.
the defense wins the series 4-1.

It was an extreme case I used to better explain the reasoning. My point is the results of a great defender's impact on a game is more dependent on the performance of his teammates then the results of a great scorer's impact.

[Pinkhearts]

LOL this forums is just full of uneducated ******ging retards who make decisions based on feelings rather than objectively. Seriously you guys might as well be girls.

My view? Pippen > Heat superstars. Why? Because Pippen + MJ = dynasties. Lebron + Wade, both who you are arguing to be at MJ's level, are .500. And that is with Bosh. The difference is ball ability and winning is obvious.

[aau]

wow . . . .

05 - 24/5/6/1 47% 77g

06 - 27/5/6/2 49% 75g

07 - 27/4/7/2 49% 51g

08 - 24/4/7/1 47% 51g

09 - 30/5/7/2 49% 79g

10 - 26/4/6/1 47% 77g

these are jordan type numbers? . . . lmao

jordan who?

the thing that stands out about wade's 7 seasons is that
he's averaged less than 9 fta just once (rookie season)
he's avgd 10 ft p/g twice yet he still hasn't shot 50%
it's not because of 3PA he's only att over 100 twice

09 - 88/278 31%
10 - 73/243 30%

pippen attempted 400 3PA twice at 37%

.

pippen

92 - 21/7/7/2 50% 82g

93 - 18/7/6/2 47% 81g

94 - 22/8/5/3 49% 72g

95 - 21/8/5/3 48% 79g

96 - 19/6/6/1 46% 77g

97 - 20/6/5/2 47% 82g

has never averaged 5 fta nor attempted over 440 in a season

wade has shot over 700 ft 4 times including a season w/800

and all he can do is avg 4-5 points more than pippen . . . .

.

conversely

pippen's advantage defensively far outweighs wade's 4-5 ppg

he had 150 steals 7 times . . . 200 steals 3 times

wade hit 150 steals . . . . . once

.

lastly

pippen was a much greater rebounder than wade by far

he had 500+ REB 7 times . . . 600+ REB 4 times

wade pulled down 300+ 4 times incl a 400

offensive boards

pippen had 150 ORB 8 times . . . . 200 once

wade pulled 100 ORB . . . . 3 times

.

.

wade may be a bit better offensively

but he's no where near pippen as a complete player

[Round Mound]

The problem was that Pippen along side a ball hogg prevented him from scoring more.

But when the Ball Hogg left in 1993-94 Pippen shot 49%

"Ohh....Jordan makes players around him bettter"

But ofcourse Pippen was smart...UNLIKE MJ to shoot less and try to pick up on other factors to win, TEAM FACTORS (something MJ did not know before Phil Jackson) such as Creating 1st for the Open Shooters, Rebounding and Guarding 4 Positions

Yes Pippen could Guard 4 Positions and decrease the level of 85% of all the players in those positions.

[97 bulls]

I was talking to a buddy about this topic and how dominant pippen was on defense. And he made a great point to me. Go back and watch that so called "foul" on hubert davis. Watch what pippen did in that defensive sequence. Like my friend said, he was basically trying to guard 3 people on that play, when starks came off that pick and drove baseline, pippen had to come over to help, and he succesfully cut him off, when starks kicked it out pippen got bumped by a knicks player and still blocked davis shot cleanly. Just watch how much ground he covered on defense during that play.

[Round Mound]

I was talking to a buddy about this topic and how dominant pippen was on defense. And he made a great point to me. Go back and watch that so called "foul" on hubert davis. Watch what pippen did in that defensive sequence. Like my friend said, he was basically trying to guard 3 people on that play, when starks came off that pick and drove baseline, pippen had to come over to help, and he succesfully cut him off, when starks kicked it out pippen got bumped by a knicks player and still blocked davis shot cleanly. Just watch how much ground he covered on defense during that play.

Best Perimeter Defender Ever
One of the Greatest All Around Player
The Best SF of the 90s

Jordan made no body

Phil Jackson made Jordan win

[tpols]

Best Perimeter Defender Ever
One of the Greatest All Around Player
The Best SF of the 90s

Jordan made no body

Phil Jackson made Jordan win
Yea I'm sure playing in practice with a competitive jordan everyday getting knocked on your ass, then getting playoff experience every year because you have the GOAT on your team doesn't help you develop as a player:oldlol:

[Simple Jack]

Best Perimeter Defender Ever
One of the Greatest All Around Player
The Best SF of the 90s

Jordan made no body

Phil Jackson made Jordan win

Care to explain why the 2nd season after Jordan's retirement the Bulls were struggling to maintain a .500 record before Jordan came and finished off the season something like 14-3 for the Bulls?

[madmax]

Best Perimeter Defender Ever
One of the Greatest All Around Player
The Best SF of the 90s

Jordan made no body

Phil Jackson made Jordan win
:applause: :cheers: I always laugh when His Airness stans claim how he "made" Pippen:facepalm Looks like too much Space Jam jammed their ability to reason logically...

[Alhazred]

The problem was that Pippen along side a ball hogg prevented him from scoring more.

But when the Ball Hogg left in 1993-94 Pippen shot 49%

"Ohh....Jordan makes players around him bettter"

But ofcourse Pippen was smart...UNLIKE MJ to shoot less and try to pick up on other factors to win, TEAM FACTORS (something MJ did not know before Phil Jackson) such as Creating 1st for the Open Shooters, Rebounding and Guarding 4 Positions

Yes Pippen could Guard 4 Positions and decrease the level of 85% of all the players in those positions.

So what if Scottie shot 49% in '94? He also shot over 50% in '91 and '92 playing alongside that "ballhog".

Also, here's what Scottie said about your boy Barkley after only playing one year with him.


"I wouldn't give Charles Barkley an apology at gunpoint," Pippen said, never raising his voice. "He can never expect an apology from me. ... If anything, he owes me an apology for coming to play with his fat butt."

Pippen said he was the one who should be disappointed.

"He's a very selfish guy," Pippen said of Barkley. "He doesn't show the desire to want to win. That's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him anymore because he just doesn't show the dedication.

"I probably should've listened to Michael (Jordan) a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a championship because he doesn't show any dedication."

Pippen wasn't finished.

"I was very shocked to see what type of player he was by spending half a season with him," he said of Barkley. "I'm a guy that's dedicated to winning, and I put out a lot of effort on the court. I expect that from my teammates, especially from a guy of his caliber.

"You know he's not willing to go the distance. There's no reason for me to put my last three or four years at risk of never winning.

"Charles is definitely one of the guys that needs to show more leadership for this ballclub to be successful, and he don't show that to me. ... He feels that if he gets 10 rebounds and double-figure points, he's done a good job. But that's not what the game's about. It's about defending, being professional and coming to work every day."

http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/0929/85794.html

[Simple Jack]

So what if Scottie shot 49% in '94? He also shot over 50% in '91 and '92 playing alongside that "ballhog".

Also, here's what Scottie said about your boy Barkley after only playing one year with him.



http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/0929/85794.html


Round Mound probably never saw that before. Can't imagine the confusion he's going to feel when he reads this.

"Pippen said tha......about....abou.....abo.....Charles Barkley? No...NO!, it can't be!" *Head explodes*

[Alhazred]

Round Mound probably never saw that before. Can't imagine the confusion he's going to feel when he reads this.

"Pippen said tha......about....abou.....abo.....Charles Barkley? No...NO!, it can't be!" *Head explodes*

:oldlol: I have to admit, I was surprised when I read that the first time. Wade may be the better player, but Scottie had the bigger balls, period.

[Da_Realist]

So what if Scottie shot 49% in '94? He also shot over 50% in '91 and '92 playing alongside that "ballhog".

Also, here's what Scottie said about your boy Barkley after only playing one year with him.



http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/0929/85794.html

Thank you. Please shut him up. It's amazing how this guy tries to defend the "right" way to play and chooses Charles Barkley as his favorite player.

Moses had to whip his ass in shape when he first got to Philly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1fpPYTedt4

[Roundball_Rock]

Care to explain why the 2nd season after Jordan's retirement the Bulls were struggling to maintain a .500 record before Jordan came and finished off the season something like 14-3 for the Bulls?

Sure. The Bulls lost practically their entire frontcourt in the offseason and had three new starters.

Now it is my turn. Can you explain why the Bulls without Pippen for half of 98' declined more than the Bulls without Jordan in 94'? Thanks in advance.


Yea I'm sure playing in practice with a competitive jordan

Jordan played for 15 seasons. Not a single other teammate of MJ was anywhere near Pippen's level. Why didn't Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, or Rip Hamilton become superstars due to MJ's midas touch? Why hasn't MJ "
made a Pippen" in Charlotte yet?


When he was the number one option of the Bulls he only averaged under 23 ppg, and he failed to led his team in the NBA Finals.

And? How many de facto PG's or PG's score 30 ppg? You can't select one season and dismiss a player's ability to win a championship based on that, especially when that player had a team with a D-Leaguer starting because MJ suddenly retired 2 days before training camp. It is quite ironic to see a Lebron fan say such a thing. 94' means Pip could never win without MJ. So what conclusion are we to reach based on Lebron being ringless in 7 seasons, despite having the best record in the L two consecutive seasons? :eek:


Wade has already proven that he's a better playoffs performer than Prime Scottie Pippen when he won the 2006 NBA Finals MVP.

Cedric Maxwell>Pippen as a playoff performer then. :lol Wade probably is a better playoff performer--in the first round. He hasn't been out the first round since 2006. What a spectacular playoff record! :roll:


The Celtics don't really have a clear leader.

http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Kevin_Garnett_NBA_2k9_coverboy.jpg


The Bulls didn't just add Myers, there were multiple additions to the roster that year

Teams add bench players every year.


So one great player + one decent player + scrubs and no bench = better than a proven contender?


If the claims made about Wade are accurate he should be dominating with the reigning 2x MVP and another top 15 player.


The Suns lost, period. Not only that, but it was almost a sweep. Also, only winning 46 games with Steve Nash is pretty pathetic seeing as how the Suns made the WCF the year after he left. I would love to see what Wade could do playing with Nash and Amar



You seem to have left off Shaq's record in '08 before he bailed for Phoenix. Let me remind you that the Heat with Shaq that year were 8-25 with them going 2-8 in his final ten games. What happened there?

Shaq was 35 by 2008. Will Wade even be in the league at age 35???


Even when Scottie came back in '98 after missing nearly half the season, he still averaged 19 points per game, yet his scoring dropped by nearly 5 points when he joined Houston, despite playing all 50 games and averaging 40 minutes a game.

How much did he score in the 98' finals after his back injury???


then he can accept part of the blame for when his team lost.

:oldlol: at hammering Pippen for losing in one season. 6 rings. You can't win them all. Blaming him for 99' is like cherry picking 99' for Hakeem.



Also, here's what Scottie said about your boy Barkley after only playing one year with him.

Who cares? Just because he is a fan of Barkley doesn't mean he has to hate anyone who ever criticized Barkley or adopt all of Barkley's views. Besides, Pip and Charles made up. Barkley spoke when Pippen's jersey was retired--he said MJ should thank Scottie for those 6 rings!

[DreamsRockets]

if you're looking for a primary option, you take wade over quitten.

if you're looking to incorporate one of these two alongside an established, ball-dominating superstar, you take scottie quitten.

all that said, **** quitten.

[juju151111]

Sure. The Bulls lost practically their entire frontcourt in the offseason and had three new starters.

Now it is my turn. Can you explain why the Bulls without Pippen for half of 98' declined more than the Bulls without Jordan in 94'? Thanks in advance.



Jordan played for 15 seasons. Not a single other teammate of MJ was anywhere near Pippen's level. Why didn't Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, or Rip Hamilton become superstars due to MJ's midas touch? Why hasn't MJ "
made a Pippen" in Charlotte yet?



And? How many de facto PG's or PG's score 30 ppg? You can't select one season and dismiss a player's ability to win a championship based on that, especially when that player had a team with a D-Leaguer starting because MJ suddenly retired 2 days before training camp. It is quite ironic to see a Lebron fan say such a thing. 94' means Pip could never win without MJ. So what conclusion are we to reach based on Lebron being ringless in 7 seasons, despite having the best record in the L two consecutive seasons? :eek:



Cedric Maxwell>Pippen as a playoff performer then. :lol Wade probably is a better playoff performer--in the first round. He hasn't been out the first round since 2006. What a spectacular playoff record! :roll:



http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Kevin_Garnett_NBA_2k9_coverboy.jpg



Teams add bench players every year.



If the claims made about Wade are accurate he should be dominating with the reigning 2x MVP and another top 15 player.





Shaq was 35 by 2008. Will Wade even be in the league at age 35???



How much did he score in the 98' finals after his back injury???



:oldlol: at hammering Pippen for losing in one season. 6 rings. You can't win them all. Blaming him for 99' is like cherry picking 99' for Hakeem.



Who cares? Just because he is a fan of Barkley doesn't mean he has to hate anyone who ever criticized Barkley or adopt all of Barkley's views. Besides, Pip and Charles made up. Barkley spoke when Pippen's jersey was retired--he said MJ should thank Scottie for those 6 rings!
LOL in 98 MJ was 35 with a crack knuckle, knee problems and was still his team to Ws. Barkley. Wade is superior to Pippen and thats a fact. Wat u talking about first round. Wade destroyed the 05 and 06 pistons. Destroyed the Celtics. A healthy Wade is superior to Pippen. Sorry Round ur BS doesn't fly here.

[Ne 1]

Teams add bench players every year.

While it is true the Bulls had other additions to the team, Pete Myers was Jordan's direct replacement.

The Bulls added a European player with no NBA experience, Steve Kerr + Luc Longley and they didn't miss a beat with Scottie Pippen as the leader and without the guy who is supposed to be the clear, undisputed GOAT and the most valuable player ever.

The core of the '93 Chicago Bulls team, the key players and their roles - Pippen, Grant, BJ remained the same, which is why the '94 team was considered pretty much the same team minus Jordan.

The bench players contributions most certainly DOES NOT offset Jordan's contributions from the previous year.

Even with a talented sixth man like Mr. Inconsistent Toni Kukoc; a TWO Win drop for the team after the departure of its franchise player and supposedly undisputed GOAT player, is still INEXCUSABLE. It seems to me Jordan is a "REPLACEABLE" part of his team and Pippen was much more than just a marginal role player.

The main reason for the Bulls drop off in '95 and the main reason they were eliminated during the '95 playoffs even with MJ is because of lack of rebounding and the lack of inside defensive presence provided before their second best player Horace Grant left. In '96, they plugged that weakness with Dennis Rodman. The Bulls need rebounding, they got the best rebounder in the league. The Bulls need inside defensive presence and they got a 2 time Defensive Player award winner. Rodman >> Horace Grant.

[Alhazred]

http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Kevin_Garnett_NBA_2k9_coverboy.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/06/20/amd_pierce.jpg




Teams add bench players every year.

Yes, they do, but the ones the Bulls added also happened to be major improvements over the players they replaced. Also, one of those bench players was the one who kept the Bulls from being down 0-3 against New York that year in Game 3. Adding five new replacements hardly counts as a minor addition.


If the claims made about Wade are accurate he should be dominating with the reigning 2x MVP and another top 15 player.

No bench, little talent outside the big three, no interior defense and an average at best coach hardly makes up a great team.


Shaq was 35 by 2008. Will Wade even be in the league at age 35???

Your point? You claimed that Shaq was the sole reason for Miami's success and then said that he even played well with the Suns that same season he left Miami, so why couldn't he carry the Heat to at least a .500 record that year? :confusedshrug:


How much did he score in the 98' finals after his back injury???

You mean before he had back surgery and averaged 40 minutes a game the next season?


:oldlol: at hammering Pippen for losing in one season. 6 rings. You can't win them all. Blaming him for 99' is like cherry picking 99' for Hakeem.

Not really. Scottie was "the man" on the Blazers the very next season, so it's not like he was incapable of leading a team to at least the second round at that point, right?


Who cares? Just because he is a fan of Barkley doesn't mean he has to hate anyone who ever criticized Barkley or adopt all of Barkley's views. Besides, Pip and Charles made up. Barkley spoke when Pippen's jersey was retired--he said MJ should thank Scottie for those 6 rings!

Too bad Pippen and Barkley couldn't get along when they were actually on the court together. Did Pippen actually take back what he said? Here's what he said after Barkley's '00 season ended.


"Charles is a great player. He's a legend; he's a Hall of Famer," Pippen said. "You don't have to label him that he didn't win a championship. He's still great in his own respective way. He's one of the greatest 6-6 guys that ever played the game, and I'm sure he'll be remembered as one of the greatest players at the forward position."

It doesn't really sound like he took back what he said about Barkley being lazy.

Also, why do you feel the need to speak up for Round Mound? He's a big boy, he can speak up for himself.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I know I'm behind on all the discussion but for what it's worth, I put Wade >>>> Pippen.

They are both great players but I think Wade is an all-timer.

Also, Wade's defense is being underrated.

[Alhazred]

While it is true the Bulls had other additions to the team, Pete Myers was Jordan's direct replacement.

The Bulls added a European player with no NBA experience, Steve Kerr + Luc Longley and they didn't miss a beat with Scottie Pippen as the leader and without the guy who is supposed to be the clear, undisputed GOAT and the most valuable player ever.

The core of the '93 Chicago Bulls team, the key players and their roles - Pippen, Grant, BJ remained the same, which is why the '94 team was considered pretty much the same team minus Jordan.

The bench players contributions most certainly DOES NOT offset Jordan's contributions from the previous year.

Even with a talented sixth man like Mr. Inconsistent Toni Kukoc; a TWO Win drop for the team after the departure of its franchise player and supposedly undisputed GOAT player, is still INEXCUSABLE. It seems to me Jordan is a "REPLACEABLE" part of his team and Pippen was much more than just a marginal role player.

How on Earth was Jordan "replaceable"? Did I miss something, I don't recall the Bulls winning any championships in '94? A two game difference might not seem like much even with five new players added to the roster, but think about this. In 1969, the Philadelphia 76ers traded Wilt Chamberlain to the Lakers for Archie Clark(averaged 14/4/3 in '69 with Philly), Darrell Imhoff( Average center) and Jerry Chambers(did not play). Not only that, but they lost their coach Alex Hannum and lost Luke Jackson after only 25 games. You'd think this team would tank, right? Wrong. They ended up winning 55 games that year, only 7 less than the previous season and they had a better record than the championship-winning Celtics. Does that mean Chamberlain, Hannum and Jackson were "replaceable"? No. Even though both Chicago and Philadelphia still managed to have decent regular season records without their former star players, they performed worse in the playoffs much sooner than they did the years before. Chicago went from winning the Finals to losing in the second round and Philadelphia went from losing a close ECF to getting knocked out of the first round.


Also, who the f-ck is claiming Pippen was a "marginal role player"? Even Oldschool has said that Pippen is a top 30 player of all-time. The only people on ISH who claim otherwise are for the most part trolls with little credibility.

[King Kong]

Pippen

[Round Mound]

How on Earth was Jordan "replaceable"? Did I miss something, I don't recall the Bulls winning any championships in '94? A two game difference might not seem like much even with five new players added to the roster, but think about this. In 1969, the Philadelphia 76ers traded Wilt Chamberlain to the Lakers for Archie Clark(averaged 14/4/3 in '69 with Philly), Darrell Imhoff( Average center) and Jerry Chambers(did not play). Not only that, but they lost their coach Alex Hannum and lost Luke Jackson after only 25 games. You'd think this team would tank, right? Wrong. They ended up winning 55 games that year, only 7 less than the previous season and they had a better record than the championship-winning Celtics. Does that mean Chamberlain, Hannum and Jackson were "replaceable"? No. Even though both Chicago and Philadelphia still managed to have decent regular season records without their former star players, they performed worse in the playoffs much sooner than they did the years before. Chicago went from winning the Finals to losing in the second round and Philadelphia went from losing a close ECF to getting knocked out of the first round.


Also, who the f-ck is claiming Pippen was a "marginal role player"? Even Oldschool has said that Pippen is a top 30 player of all-time. The only people on ISH who claim otherwise are for the most part trolls with little credibility.

The media Jordan myth: "Jordan played alone and dominated the league alone"

Alone was Barkley from 87-92
Alone was Robinson from 89-96
Alone was Hakeem 88-93

JORDAN when he had a weaker team: HAD THE LOWEST WINNING% OF ANY SUPERSTAR in those times.

[Alhazred]

The media Jordan myth: "Jordan played alone and dominated the league alone"

Alone was Barkley from 87-92
Alone was Robinson from 89-96
Alone was Hakeem 88-93

JORDAN when he had a weaker team: HAD THE LOWEST WINNING% OF ANY SUPERSTAR in those times.

Sir, you are an absolute clown. MJ had weaker teams in '88 and '89(When Pippen and Grant were still developing and with no Jackson yet), yet he still led them to two seasons of 50 and 47 wins while advancing to the second round in '88 and the ECF in '89(Giving the '89 Pistons their only two playoff losses).

And hey, Barkley had the same chance to win with Pippen in '99 that Jordan did in '98. How did that turn out again?


"I wouldn't give Charles Barkley an apology at gunpoint. He can never expect an apology from me. ... If anything, he owes me an apology for coming to play with his fat butt."

"He's a very selfish guy. He doesn't show the desire to want to win. That's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him anymore because he just doesn't show the dedication."

"I probably should've listened to Michael (Jordan) a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a championship because he doesn't show any dedication."- Pippen

:roll: :lol

[97 bulls]

The media Jordan myth: "Jordan played alone and dominated the league alone"

Alone was Barkley from 87-92
Alone was Robinson from 89-96
Alone was Hakeem 88-93

JORDAN when he had a weaker team: HAD THE LOWEST WINNING% OF ANY SUPERSTAR in those times.
Are you knocking jordan? Cuz he had the worse win% of all the 80s stars? Even though as you said, he had the weakest teams? Im confused.

[97 bulls]

Sir, you are an absolute clown. MJ had weaker teams in '88 and '89(When Pippen and Grant were still developing and with no Jackson. yet), yet he still led them to two seasons of 50 and 47 wins while advancing to the second round in '88 and the ECF in '89(Giving the '89 Pistons their only two playoff losses).

And hey, Barkley had the same chance to win with Pippen in '99 that Jordan did in '98. How did that turn out again?



:roll: :lol
This statement from pippen was funny as hell is hot

[Alhazred]

This statement from pippen was funny as hell is hot

Glad you liked it. Yeah, '99 was a rough year for Houston.

[Round Mound]

Are you knocking jordan? Cuz he had the worse win% of all the 80s stars? Even though as you said, he had the weakest teams? Im confused.


Hakeem had a weaker team from 88-92, higher winning than Jordan, Barkley had a weaker team 87-92 higher winning %, Robinson had a a weaker team 89-96....higher winning %

MJ hardly made the play-offs without Pippen and Grant

True or not?

1985-86: Jordan out for the seasonl, the great creator and team player: and the BULLS strangley made the play-offs?

Jordan`s Winning% started because of Pippen, Phil Jackson and Grant: Great Players: They prooved it without him.

Great Team Players are: Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Pippen. They make others better. Jordan made no one better in his career.

He left in 1993-94 and the WHOLE BULLS TEAM shot at a higher FG% and 55 wins

Strange again ha?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't see the hype around Wade's first round series vs Boston last year. His final numbers were great, and he went off for 46 in game 4, but when Miami fell behind 0-2, I thought he was deferring way too much and not trying to take over the games like he should've.

His final numbers look great, in large part due to that 46 point game, but look at the first 2 games.

Game 1- 26 pts, 8 rbs, 6 asts, 3 stls, 2 blks, 11/18 FG, 4/6 FT, 7 TO

Good numbers, but no way should Wade have taken just 18 shots with that cast.

Game 2- 29 pts, 2 rbs, 5 asts, 0 stls, 2 blks, 11/18 FG, 5/8 3P, 2/7 FT, 1 TO,

Again, when you're scoring that efficiently, you have to take more shots with a cast like Wade's.

Wade played well, but he was too unselfish those first 2 games, that's a series where he should've been taking 25-30 shots every night. When Wade has talent around him, I like the fact that he's not a chucker or selfish because it works better with a talented roster when you pick your posts, but in situations like that, you have to come out trying to carry your team.

I don't blame Wade for the loss because he didn't have a good cast, but I couldn't figure out why he wasn't shooting more earlier in the series.

[Da_Realist]

Give me Pippen. Wade may be the more dynamic player, but I want a player that's going to give the team everything he has, be a coach on the floor, never take a play off and work on his game every summer. Give me the guy that can affect the game whether the ball is in his hands or not. In fact, give me Pippen over Lebron.

Lebron is useless without the ball. No one can win playing with scrubs but that's when he looks his best. I've seen no leadership coming out of Miami. They got a mutiny down there with the coach. Whining about the offense, how many minutes are required of them and how tough he is in practice. Ridiculous. These 2 guys are in their EIGHTH season.

Pippen came out of Hamburg, Arkansas and by his 8th season already had a more versatile game than either Lebron or DWade. Not better, but more versatile. Could play with or without the ball. Great defender. Coach on the floor. Because he worked his ass off.

Give me Pippen and I could find some pieces he could fit in with and take my chances. At least I know the team will compete every game, make no excuses and play their best.

[Teanett]

:applause:
Give me Pippen. Wade may be the more dynamic player, but I want a player that's going to give the team everything he has, be a coach on the floor, never take a play off and work on his game every summer. Give me the guy that can affect the game whether the ball is in his hands or not. In fact, give me Pippen over Lebron.

Lebron is useless without the ball. No one can win playing with scrubs but that's when he looks his best. I've seen no leadership coming out of Miami. They got a mutiny down there with the coach. Whining about the offense, how many minutes are required of them and how tough he is in practice. Ridiculous. These 2 guys are in their EIGHTH season.

Pippen came out of Hamburg, Arkansas and by his 8th season already had a more versatile game than either Lebron or DWade. Not better, but more versatile. Could play with or without the ball. Great defender. Coach on the floor. Because he worked his ass off.

Give me Pippen and I could find some pieces he could fit in with and take my chances. At least I know the team will compete every game, make no excuses and play their best.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Give me Pippen. Wade may be the more dynamic player, but I want a player that's going to give the team everything he has, be a coach on the floor, never take a play off and work on his game every summer. Give me the guy that can affect the game whether the ball is in his hands or not. In fact, give me Pippen over Lebron.

Lebron is useless without the ball. No one can win playing with scrubs but that's when he looks his best. I've seen no leadership coming out of Miami. They got a mutiny down there with the coach. Whining about the offense, how many minutes are required of them and how tough he is in practice. Ridiculous. These 2 guys are in their EIGHTH season.

Pippen came out of Hamburg, Arkansas and by his 8th season already had a more versatile game than either Lebron or DWade. Not better, but more versatile. Could play with or without the ball. Great defender. Coach on the floor. Because he worked his ass off.

Give me Pippen and I could find some pieces he could fit in with and take my chances. At least I know the team will compete every game, make no excuses and play their best.

:applause:

Great post. You made a particularly strong point about the leadership vacuum in Miami. For all the talk of being "the man" and "leading his team" that we have heard this year and for several years with respect to Lebron and Wade where is the leadership right now? Miami's ship is heading for the rocks if they do not change course soon. These big, bad "alpha dogs" are too busy chilling, sniping, or whining to bother grabbing the wheel and changing course to avert disaster. It is sad leadership in the basketball world is conflated so often with scoring average. In contrast, the "sidekick" has a proven record of leadership and 6 rings and 9 trips to the conference finals to back it up.

[97 bulls]

Hakeem had a weaker team from 88-92, higher winning than Jordan, Barkley had a weaker team 87-92 higher winning %, Robinson had a a weaker team 89-96....higher winning %

MJ hardly made the play-offs without Pippen and Grant

True or not?

1985-86: Jordan out for the seasonl, the great creator and team player: and the BULLS strangley made the play-offs?

Jordan`s Winning% started because of Pippen, Phil Jackson and Grant: Great Players: They prooved it without him.

Great Team Players are: Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Pippen. They make others better. Jordan made no one better in his career.

He left in 1993-94 and the WHOLE BULLS TEAM shot at a higher FG% and 55 wins

Strange again ha?
I know you're a jordan hater but at least tell the truth. While its debatable that robinson, olajuwan and barkley had "weaker" teams than jordan, their winning% isn't. Jordan far and away had a better avg win% than all of them during the years in question and had a couple of championships and eastern conference final appearances. Why would you even say things that aren't true when it can be easily checked?

And magic and bird aren't very good comparisons, cuz they've never really been on bad teams.

[Alhazred]

He left in 1993-94 and the WHOLE BULLS TEAM shot at a higher FG% and 55 wins

Strange again ha?

Chicago Bulls in '93: 105.2 points per game, 48.2% field goal percentage, 2nd ranked offense in the league.

Chicago Bulls in '94: 98 points per game, 47.6% field goal percentage, 14th ranked offense in the league.

You were saying?

Seriously, we get it. The Bulls were still a very good team without Jordan, but they weren't better offensively without him. That is an absolute myth.

[az00m]

Pippen > Wade if you need a legit 2nd option :p

Pippen without jordan tho was a great player and he proved that in 94, 95 and after his reign with the bulls.

I rather have a pippen on my team than a wade for the sheer fact that pippens defense> wades defense.

pippen would also give you 20 points on same shooting percent as wade and dish more assist and have more rebounds. combine that with great def he is a much better all around player and a more complete fit.

[Da_Realist]

:applause:

Great post. You made a particularly strong point about the leadership vacuum in Miami. For all the talk of being "the man" and "leading his team" that we have heard this year and for several years with respect to Lebron and Wade where is the leadership right now? Miami's ship is heading for the rocks if they do not change course soon. These big, bad "alpha dogs" are too busy chilling, sniping, or whining to bother grabbing the wheel and changing course to avert disaster. It is sad leadership in the basketball world is conflated so often with scoring average. In contrast, the "sidekick" has a proven record of leadership and 6 rings and 9 trips to the conference finals to back it up.

110%. Pippen gave 110%. May not be as talented or gifted offensively but he played hard every night. Wade and Lebron are still trying to dance and play around in practice. Pippen, Jordan and Ron Harper used to work out at Jordan's home before practice and talk strategy over breakfast. That's commitment. Over the course of a career, I'll take my chances on a guy that treats the game with respect.

[AirJordan&Magic]

I really do not understand how people underappreciate and underrate Pippen's impact on the court.

Tell me how many players in the history of the Nba you are going to find that could dominate the game defensively (whether it's guarding the team's best wing player, distrupting the offense, etc), make a team offense effecient with smart playmaking, and can even provide quality buckets & rebound the ball well?...Not many.

Fact of the matter is, we are more likely to see another Wade-type player before we are to see another Scottie Pippen.

[Captain Kirk]

The idea that Wade is anywhere in Pippen's league is laughable. There is a thread dedicated to Pippen on this same page I believe. Go into it, see the player Pippen was and know that Wade is too much of a diva to reach that level.

[Micku]

1985-86: Jordan out for the seasonl, the great creator and team player: and the BULLS strangley made the play-offs?


Look who was on the team.

Ice Man, Oakley and Woolridge. When Jordan was out, Oakley (recently join) helped with the rebounds that was a problem before, Woolridge did the scoring, and Gervin (also recently join) was still a decent player. Put Jordan on the team injury free, I wonder where they end up. Along with time to play together. I believe that team had potential to get a winning record. The fact that the Bulls reached to 40 wins the next year when Jordan was healthy should make you look back and say that team might be better. Especially if they would trade Woolridge since he couldn't work with Jordan much.

The 85-86 had more scoring options than the 1986/87 team. Things would've been more interesting with a healthy Jordan in the line up.
It would've looked like this:

Kyle Macy
Jordan
Woolridge
Oakley
Corzine

With Green and Gervin backing up. That team is much better offensively than just Oakley and Paxson as you second and third option. Plus with Oakley in the lineup, you have the rebounds. Plus, Paxson was in the 85-86 team.

With that said, that team wasn't going to be a championship team at all. But it might've been a much better team than the 86-87 team if Jordan was healthy. Especially since they would've had more time to play together to build up chemistry and etc.

I wonder what would happen if Jordan would be with Dr. J and Moses Malone though since Jordan never had that epic big guy.


To the main topic:

As some guy said a long time ago, Pippen is both underrated and overrated. I don't think Pippen is better than Wade, but he does do things better than Wade. But Pippen does things better than most of the superstars.

Like Pippen was never a great scorer. He never prove that, never exceed it, and he wasn't the clutchy player as the other stars.

Pippen was the best defensive SF in the 90s. Probably one of the best versatile defensive player. He can guard from 1-4. Pippen was also the good rebounder, good playmaker and everything.

And I don't think Pippen is the GOAT second option. There were people who were second options who won MVP. Some who didn't, that I think who are better than Pippen. Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar Roberson, Jerry West, Wilt, Mchale, Dr. J, and Wade. All of them who played second option were just better than Pippen. Also, most of them won MVPs.

There might be more that I didn't think of.

With that said, I do think Pippen is a great player. But not better than Wade. I think Wade separated himself in 05/06 when he performed in the biggest stage of them all along with a very good season and Wade's prime in 09. He took over as a better number 1 option than Pippen ever did. Not really a knock on Pippen. But why should a person believe Pippen is better than Wade when he already lead a team to a champsionship with a higher level of play? He bump himself up as the a 1a/b guy in the end of the 2005 playoffs and extend on that in 2006.

I think Wade already proved himself to be an elite status, and will probably will be looked at as a better player in NBA history. Like LeBron though, with the joining of the big 3 I think Wade took a knock on his legacy since it is mainly LeBron show. But we'll see how things play out.

[Da_Realist]

Look who was on the team.

Ice Man, Oakley and Woolridge. When Jordan was out, Oakley (recently join) helped with the rebounds that was a problem before, Woolridge did the scoring, and Gervin (also recently join) was still a decent player. Put Jordan on the team injury free, I wonder where they end up. Along with time to play together. I believe that team had potential to get a winning record. The fact that the Bulls reached to 40 wins the next year when Jordan was healthy should make you look back and say that team might be better. Especially if they would trade Woolridge since he couldn't work with Jordan much.

The 85-86 had more scoring options than the 1986/87 team. Things would've been more interesting with a healthy Jordan in the line up.
It would've looked like this:

Kyle Macy
Jordan
Woolridge
Oakley
Corzine

With Green and Gervin backing up. That team is much better offensively than just Oakley and Paxson as you second and third option. Plus with Oakley in the lineup, you have the rebounds. Plus, Paxson was in the 85-86 team.

With that said, that team wasn't going to be a championship team at all. But it might've been a much better team than the 86-87 team if Jordan was healthy. Especially since they would've had more time to play together to build up chemistry and etc.

Please don't waste your time. That dude has too much Jordan hate to see things with context. Let him have his "Jordan is a loser and a product of the triangle" beliefs.

As far as 1987... That team was garbage. The foundation was all wrong and it needed to be destroyed before it was rebuilt. Too many drug fiends on that team that didn't care one bit about winning or competing. Gervin was run out of San Antonio for a reason. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdYb6iCx-lg) Plus he was an elderly citizen at that point. There were no leaders on that team at all and the coaching situation was even worse. There was a culture of losing with the Bulls franchise up to that point. There was a lot of work to be done before the team could actually become contenders.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

110%. Pippen gave 110%. May not be as talented or gifted offensively but he played hard every night. Wade and Lebron are still trying to dance and play around in practice. Pippen, Jordan and Ron Harper used to work out at Jordan's home before practice and talk strategy over breakfast. That's commitment. Over the course of a career, I'll take my chances on a guy that treats the game with respect.

he is not lying, MJ has something called the breakfast club where he talks about doing that. I could only imagine if they would work as hard if they were making 20 million a year instead of 700k.

[Roundball_Rock]

12 pages and the argument can be summarized as this:

For Pippen: 6 rings, a career of excellence.
For Wade: 3 1/4 transcendent games (thanks to the refs...) which led to 1 ring--and absolutely nothing in 4 years.

Of course this is hyperbole but it is not that far removed from the argument for Wade. It is all about 3 1/4 games nearly half a decade ago. If you came from Mars and read this thread you would think Wade retired years ago since no one is pointing to him doing anything since 2006...

This thread shows how much of a grip the labels "the man" and "sidekick" have on the mind of most basketball fans. 1>6 as a result of this. Wade going 26-25 without Shaq from 2005-07 while old Shaq went 20-9 without Wade is completely ignored because Wade was designated with the label of "the man." Pippen going 51-21 without Jordan in 94' is irrelevant, again due to a label.

I agree that peak Wade>peak Pippen but we are talking about a player who has almost no record other than 2006. He literally has had no team success since then and his injury problems have limited his individual achievement.

[HiphopRelated]

I really do not understand how people underappreciate and underrate Pippen's impact on the court.

Tell me how many players in the history of the Nba you are going to find that could dominate the game defensively (whether it's guarding the team's best wing player, distrupting the offense, etc), make a team offense effecient with smart playmaking, and can even provide quality buckets & rebound the ball well?...Not many.

Fact of the matter is, we are more likely to see another Wade-type player before we are to see another Scottie Pippen.
we're more likey to see another Wade than Manute Bol too..doesn't mean much

[HiphopRelated]

12 pages and the argument can be summarized as this:

For Pippen: 6 rings, a career of excellence.
For Wade: 3 1/4 transcendent games (thanks to the refs...) which led to 1 ring--and absolutely nothing in 4 years.

Of course this is hyperbole but it is not that far removed from the argument for Wade. It is all about 3 1/4 games nearly half a decade ago. If you came from Mars and read this thread you would think Wade retired years ago since no one is pointing to him doing anything since 2006...

This thread shows how much of a grip the labels "the man" and "sidekick" have on the mind of most basketball fans. 1>6 as a result of this. Wade going 26-25 without Shaq from 2005-07 while old Shaq went 20-9 without Wade is completely ignored because Wade was designated with the label of "the man." Pippen going 51-21 without Jordan in 94' is irrelevant, again due to a label.

I agree that peak Wade>peak Pippen but we are talking about a player who has almost no record other than 2006. He literally has had no team success since then and his injury problems have limited his individual achievement.
It's hard to have team success when your GM is dumping every contract he can in anticipation of the biggest free agency haul ever.

Cavs were buyning everything they could, Miami was selling everything they could