Scottie Pippen vs James Worthy

[Niquesports]

This will get a lot of people giving emotional pick,most under 25 will take Pip just because they never saw Worthy. Both were small forwards that were nightmares to defend.Each had a different skill they brought to the table. Pippen was clearly the better Defender and 3pt shooter. Worthy was a better at filling the lane and finishing and was also the better post player.Here are the numbers but numbers dont tell the whole story between these 2 .

Worthy
3 time Champ
Finals MVP (88)
All NB 3rd team 2 times

Career
17.6ppg
5 rpg
.521 FG%

Playoffs
21 ppg
5 rpg
.544 FG%

7 straight seasons of 19ppg

Pippen
6 time champ
7 year All D first team
All NBA 7 times

Career

16 ppg
6 rpg
.473 %

Playoffs
17 ppg
7 rpg
.444%

5 straight years of 19ppg a year

I got Worthy

[1987_Lakers]

As much as I bash Pippen, he is still better than Worthy.

[Niquesports]

As much as I bash Pippen, he is still better than Worthy.
Can you give a reason ? The numbers dont agreee,but if thats your opinion I respect it but for the sake of discussion can you explain why ?

[nycelt84]

James Worthy was never the premier player at his position nor was he ever one of the top 5 or even top 10 players overall in the league. Pippen was all of those things for a good 6 year period.

[PistonsFan#21]

James Worthy was never the premier player at his position nor was he ever one of the top 5 or even top 10 players overall in the league. Pippen was all of those things for a good 6 year period.

Pippen was a top 5 player for a 6 year period? i doubt it

Jordan
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Olajuwon
Payton
Stockton

and plenty more i just cant think of right now

[Kellogs4toniee]

James Worthy was an offensive monster, but I strongly believe a great part of his great efficiency with those numbers comes from playing at the pace that those Lakers teams played. It helps that he's running with a player like Magic too.

Granted, playing with a player like Jordan must help significantly too. But I give the nod to Pippen because he was able to fit perfectly and produce in all the categories that the triangle system puts a restriction on. Its notable that he averaged the most assists as a forward in the triangle system ever.

This may cause some negative responses, but I believe Pippen was able to work and thrive around Jordan's play and the triangle system. Whereas Worthy went with the flow of that Lakers and Magic-lead system. Offensively, I believe it was more impressive what Pippen accomplished given what I mentioned before. This is all personal opinion of course.

And if all else fails :

10x All-NBA Defensive teams (8 of them First team) > 0 Defensive Teams.

The significant advantage Pippen had on defense, which is half the game of basketball, far outweighs the advantage Worthy had a offense, if any which is arguable.

So yea Pippen is my clear choice.

[Niquesports]

James Worthy was never the premier player at his position nor was he ever one of the top 5 or even top 10 players overall in the league. Pippen was all of those things for a good 6 year period.

When was Pippen ever a top 5 player ? FOr that when was he ever a TOp 10?

[Niquesports]

James Worthy was an offensive monster, but I strongly believe a great part of his great efficiency with those numbers comes from playing at the pace that those Lakers teams played. It helps that he's running with a player like Magic too.

Granted, playing with a player like Jordan must help significantly too. But I give the nod to Pippen because he was able to fit perfectly and produce in all the categories that the triangle system puts a restriction on. Its notable that he averaged the most assists as a forward in the triangle system ever.

This may cause some negative responses, but I believe Pippen was able to work and thrive around Jordan's play and the triangle system. Whereas Worthy went with the flow of that Lakers and Magic-lead system. Offensively, I believe it was more impressive what Pippen accomplished given what I mentioned before. This is all personal opinion of course.

And if all else fails :

10x All-NBA Defensive teams (8 of them First team) > 0 Defensive Teams.

The significant advantage Pippen had on defense, which is half the game of basketball, far outweighs the advantage Worthy had a offense, if any which is arguable.

So yea Pippen is my clear choice.


I would say the significant advantage Pippen has on D does give him an edge. However Pippen has a body of work without Jordan that showed many of his flaws. His avg career stats show this. With the Blazers and Rockets Pippen isn't even a HOF player. Granted we never really saw James without the Lakers but there were times when James took charge as the team leader. His Finals MVP maybe not the better player or the teams leader he still was the MVP something Pippen never could do step out from playing in Jordans shadow.

[1987_Lakers]

Can you give a reason ? The numbers dont agreee,but if thats your opinion I respect it but for the sake of discussion can you explain why ?

Pippen was a better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, & a better ball handler.

[Ne 1]

Pippen.

GOAT perimeter defender, was a MVP caliber player and at least a top 5 player (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime.

[Niquesports]

Pippen was a better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, & a better ball handler.

Worthy was a better post player , hshot a better FG% filled the lane better,stepped up in the playoffs better, was able to surpass his bat man in a final to win a Finals MVP.Maybe as a Robin Pippen might be better but if needed to be Batman Worthy was better. Heck Phil Jackson when he needed a point and he didnt have Jordan he pick Toni Kuckos to take the game winner in a playoff game what that tell you.

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen was a top 5 player for a 6 year period? i doubt it

Jordan -G.O.A.T.
Malone -I'll give you that
Barkley -Pippen was better in 1994,1996,1997,and 1998
Ewing - ummm.... i'll give you that
Olajuwon - true
Payton - Pippen was better... period
Stockton - Pippen was better in most of that decade if not



....

[nycelt84]

When was Pippen ever a top 5 player ? FOr that when was he ever a TOp 10?

I guess you missed watching basketball in the 90's. Pippen was a top 5 player from '94-'97 and you can make a debate for 91-93 for him but he was definitely top 10 in those years and was the best SF in the league every one of those years.

[Ne 1]

When was Pippen ever a top 5 player ? FOr that when was he ever a TOp 10?

Top 10? Every season from '91-'98.

Top 5? '92 '94, '95, '96, '97
IMO.


Pippen was the 2nd best wing player in the league at several points during his run with the Bulls. Hell and some years a lot of people considered Jordan and Pippen the two best players in the league. He could have won MVP in 1994 and very few people would have complained.

In the first half of the '96 season lot of people regarded him and Jordan as the top 2 players in the league and during a stretch of the early half of that season he was playing as good as MJ and a legit MVP front-runner.

Your really underrating Pippen if you don't even think he was ever a top 10 player.

[Ne 1]

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

[Niquesports]

I guess you missed watching basketball in the 90's. Pippen was a top 5 player from '94-'97 and you can make a debate for 91-93 for him but he was definitely top 10 in those years and was the best SF in the league every one of those years.
I saw lots of basketball in the 90's Never though of Pippen as a Top 5 maybe top 10. But if Pippen was playing in the 83-90 like Worthy did I dont think he would have been a top 10 and sure would not have been the top SF.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I would say the significant advantage Pippen has on D does give him an edge. However Pippen has a body of work without Jordan that showed many of his flaws. His avg career stats show this. With the Blazers and Rockets Pippen isn't even a HOF player. Granted we never really saw James without the Lakers but there were times when James took charge as the team leader. His Finals MVP maybe not the better player or the teams leader he still was the MVP something Pippen never could do step out from playing in Jordans shadow.



Mis-informed on many accounts, nitpicking from specific times of Pippens career to down-play his accomplishments.

To be more specific:

1. By the time Pippen went to the Rockets, he had already been a 11 year veteran (with a career that was easily 1st ballot HOF already). Players are generally past there primes after 11 years. In addition, you play in the triangle system for the first 11 years of your career, then you enter an entirely new system with two other hall of fame players (Barkley, Olajuwon), then you consider that it's a lock-out shortened year thus decreasing time to mesh, and of course your numbers are going to be down.

2. And by golly yes, we did see a prime Pippen without Jordan. He averaged two seasons of 22/8.5/5.5/3, was third place in MVP voting, won all-star MVP, took his team to the semi-conference finals and 55 wins, and was generally considered the best small forward in the game.

[Niquesports]

Top 10? Every season from '91-'98.

Top 5? '92 '94, '95, '96, '97
IMO.


Pippen was the 2nd best wing player in the league at several points during his run with the Bulls. Hell and some years a lot of people considered Jordan and Pippen the two best players in the league. He could have won MVP in 1994 and very few people would have complained.

In the first half of the '96 season lot of people regarded him and Jordan as the top 2 players in the league and during a stretch of the early half of that season he was playing as good as MJ and a legit MVP front-runner.

Your really underrating Pippen if you don't even think he was ever a top 10 player.


LEt me clarify myself. I think Pippen was a Great player. But no player I can recall benifitted more from playing with a GOAT and a system like Pippen did.My case in point was the big drop in his level of play with Portland and the Rockets. At the very best he was a Good player. Never did he step up and surpass Jordan like Worthy did in the 88 Finals.

[Pointguard]

Nique, its hard to compare Pippen to one/two dimensional guys. I can see the comparisons to Odom, Cooper, Lebron, Magic and even Artest, but with other guys its kind of hard.

I have more value in Pippen because the scoring wasn't that different. Kareem's post duty kind of interfered with Worthy's domination down there. Worthy was quick as lightning down there and I think he could have been as dominant as Bernard King in the post. When Kareem moved out of the post Worthy started getting injuries.

[Ne 1]

My case in point was the big drop in his level of play with Portland and the Rockets.

:oldlol:

Maybe because he was past his prime by then? Also the fact that he was never the same player after that back injury in the '98 Finals taking a million Karl Malone charges.

[momo]

Ish sided with pip in general last time this topic came up. I think it is apples and oranges and sort of a wash. Very tough to compare. It depends on what you want.

Being a laker fan and knowing this boards take on it, I do want to point out James was a GREAT face guard guy in the post... people will point at rebounding #s but you have to understand James frequently face guarded the opposing teams best rebounded, taking both James and the other player out of contention the board (often netting Magic or Rambis a freebie)

People will also point at Pippen defending guards on the perimeter. With James we don't have much to go on because it was not his role to pick up guards as the lakes had Cooper to fill that role. That's not to say pip was not better at guarding the perimeter He probably was. But it was not asked of James to do that.

Here are the stats for heads that want to go that way. Be careful with things like " bla bla was a better ___" without looking first. They might surprise :lol

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/worthja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

[Kellogs4toniee]

LEt me clarify myself. I think Pippen was a Great player. But no player I can recall benifitted more from playing with a GOAT and a system like Pippen did.My case in point was the big drop in his level of play with Portland and the Rockets. At the very best he was a Good player. Never did he step up and surpass Jordan like Worthy did in the 88 Finals.


Vice-versa, Worthy benefited greatly from Magic Johnson, who is largely considered the best point guard to ever play the game, who kept those Lakers at a 100+ PPG pace all those years, who coined the "Show-time" run and gun style that Worthy had the skillsets and ability to thrive on. In fact, I would consider playing with Magic a better benefit then playing with Worthy. Since Magic's job as a point guard is to make his team-mates better through good looks and fast breaks, whereas Jordan was generally considered a ball-hog when Pippen first arrived on the Bulls.

Big drop in level of play? He was JUST A GOOD PLAYER? :facepalm It is getting pretty ridiculous how much you are downplaying Pippen. See my post above.


1. By the time Pippen went to the Rockets, he had already been a 11 year veteran (with a career that was easily 1st ballot HOF already). Players are generally past there primes after 11 years. In addition, you play in the triangle system for the first 11 years of your career, then you enter an entirely new system with two other hall of fame players (Barkley, Olajuwon), then you consider that it's a lock-out shortened year thus decreasing time to mesh, and of course your numbers are going to be down.

2. And by golly yes, we did see a prime Pippen without Jordan. He averaged two seasons of 22/8.5/5.5/3, was third place in MVP voting, won all-star MVP, took his team to the semi-conference finals and 55 wins, and was generally considered the best small forward in the game.

Again, Worthy was great. Hall of fame worthy (no pun intended). But Pippen takes the cake easily in my opinion, especially considering his level of defense. Defense that is widely considered one of the best to ever play the game. What is Worthy considered among the best at?

[1987_Lakers]

LEt me clarify myself. I think Pippen was a Great player. But no player I can recall benifitted more from playing with a GOAT and a system like Pippen did.My case in point was the big drop in his level of play with Portland and the Rockets. At the very best he was a Good player. Never did he step up and surpass Jordan like Worthy did in the 88 Finals.

And Worthy didn't benefit?:facepalm

Worthy's FG% dropped from 49% to 45% one Magic left, coincidence? Worthy has said many times how bad he missed Magic once he left.

[G.O.A.T]

Worthy was the better scorer and maybe slightly better overall offensive players, but Pippen is the better all-around player and the more accomplished player.

Worthy won three rings, two as a sidekick and one as a support guy.

Pippen won six as a sidekick.

That's a huge edge to Pippen.

Neither had a chance to have a team of their own for an extended period of time, but I feel that both would have been solid #1 options, though probably not Champions.

Again I think Pippen gets the edge here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sorry, but this isn't close. Worthy was a very good scorer in the post and in transition with a reliable mid-range jumper, a good passer and a solid rebounder, but....

Pippen was also deadly in transition, though he didn't have the luxuary of as many transition opportunities or a playmaker like Magic. Pippen however was not only a threat to finish like Worthy, but he was a better ball handler and passer which added to his transition game. He was also a better rebounder.

Pippen was also arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, Doug Collins called him the greatest team defender ever. He was also basically the Bulls point guard, or the closest thing they had, but he could play off the ball too.

Also, if you haven't seen a lot of games(which you should before giving your 2 cents on the subject). Just look at how they were viewed at the time.

Worthy's only MVP finish was 12th in '86.

Pippen finished 9th in '92, 3rd in '94, 7th in '95, 5th in '96, 11th in '97 and 10th in '98.

Scottie was on 7 all-nba teams, 3 all-nba first teams(he should've been on the '92 first team as well) and he made 10 all-defensive teams and 8 all-defensive first teams.

Worthy made a total of 2 all-nba third teams, that's it.

Scottie also proved more as a leader with the '94 Bulls and '00 Blazers than Worthy ever did.

[hitmanyr2k]

This will get a lot of people giving emotional pick,most under 25 will take Pip just because they never saw Worthy. Both were small forwards that were nightmares to defend.Each had a different skill they brought to the table. Pippen was clearly the better Defender and 3pt shooter. Worthy was a better at filling the lane and finishing and was also the better post player.Here are the numbers but numbers dont tell the whole story between these 2 .




They're too different to compare. Worthy was a classic SF while Pippen was multidimensional because of his array of skills. You certainly can't compare the two from a skill standpoint because Pippen wins there rather easily. He's a much better ball-handler, playmaker, rebounder, and defensive player. I would even argue that Worthy and Pippen's filling the lane and finishing a fast break were pretty much equal...the main difference between the two players being that Pippen was the better ball-handler by far so he was more adept at going coast to coast himself if he wanted or playing the Magic Johnson role and initiating a fast break himself.

Pippen's post game is being underrated as well. Worthy had a classic post game that generally consisted of drop steps and quick spins. Pippen had this in his arsenal as well but also displayed better coordination in the post with headfakes and much better footwork and finished a variety of ways in his post game (dunks, jumphooks, turn-around bankshot, etc).

[Alhazred]

Pippen, easily. Better rebounder, better passer, better defender and really not that much worse as an offensive player. I'd even say it's a draw when it comes to scoring.

[Teanett]

Pippen was a top 5 player for a 6 year period? i doubt it

Jordan
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Olajuwon
Payton
Stockton

and plenty more i just cant think of right now

pip was on the dream team.
the best players of that time.
now take out bird, magic, drexler, mullen, laettner, stockton, robinson, who were not as good as him or old or hiv-positive and out of the league...
arguably top 5 player in '92 and arguably still top 5 in '98.
the poster has a point
to say you know "plenty more" who were better than him is laughable.

[Niquesports]

Sorry, but this isn't close. Worthy was a very good scorer in the post and in transition with a reliable mid-range jumper, a good passer and a solid rebounder, but....

Pippen was also deadly in transition, though he didn't have the luxuary of as many transition opportunities or a playmaker like Magic. Pippen however was not only a threat to finish like Worthy, but he was a better ball handler and passer which added to his transition game. He was also a better rebounder.

Pippen was also arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, Doug Collins called him the greatest team defender ever. He was also basically the Bulls point guard, or the closest thing they had, but he could play off the ball too.

Also, if you haven't seen a lot of games(which you should before giving your 2 cents on the subject). Just look at how they were viewed at the time.

Worthy's only MVP finish was 12th in '86.

Pippen finished 9th in '92, 3rd in '94, 7th in '95, 5th in '96, 11th in '97 and 10th in '98.

Scottie was on 7 all-nba teams, 3 all-nba first teams(he should've been on the '92 first team as well) and he made 10 all-defensive teams and 8 all-defensive first teams.

Worthy made a total of 2 all-nba third teams, that's it.

Scottie also proved more as a leader with the '94 Bulls and '00 Blazers than Worthy ever did.


I think with most things it isnt if you saw the 2 or not play but how much time and hype has passed to favor 1 player over another.WHen Pippen came into the league many called him soft many accused him of running to his brother Jordan when games got hard . often times the Pistons bullied him.Worthy came in as a NO 1 draft pick NCAA champion on to a championship team. So although Worthy came in with more acclaim he was not instantly inserted into the spotlight.

Pippen had more PG/SG/SF skills where as Worthy was more of a Power Forward/Swing Forward . So to say Pippen was a better ball handler is some what silly.
TO say Pippen made 7 All NBA Teams how many would he had won if he played in the era of Larry Bird,Dr J, Dominique ,Bernard King I question if he would have made any first team.

The big thing for me is BIG Game James post season advantage. FOr Worthy to have a Finals MVP means more to me than Pippens All Defensive teams.TO have stepped up and played above the level of a TOP 5 GOAT in a FINals means a lot to me. In 6 attempts Pippen was unable to do this.

lastly WHen I saw the numbers and saw Worthy's advantage in ppg during the season and playoffs gives him the edge to me.

[alexandreben]

even Kwame Brown can be very solid player had he played with Magic:roll: lol!! not to rip Worthy, but Pippen clearly is better in overall, not to mention Pippen was the primary playmaker and NO.1 defender in the team...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Top 10? Every season from '91-'98.

Top 5? '92 '94, '95, '96, '97
IMO.


Pippen was not top 5 in '92. Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Drexler, Malone, Ewing, and DRob were all better. Pippen has a case for top 5 for like 2-3 seasons starting in '95.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I think with most things it isnt if you saw the 2 or not play but how much time and hype has passed to favor 1 player over another.WHen Pippen came into the league many called him soft many accused him of running to his brother Jordan when games got hard . often times the Pistons bullied him.Worthy came in as a NO 1 draft pick NCAA champion on to a championship team. So although Worthy came in with more acclaim he was not instantly inserted into the spotlight.

Pippen had more PG/SG/SF skills where as Worthy was more of a Power Forward/Swing Forward . So to say Pippen was a better ball handler is some what silly.
TO say Pippen made 7 All NBA Teams how many would he had won if he played in the era of Larry Bird,Dr J, Dominique ,Bernard King I question if he would have made any first team.

The big thing for me is BIG Game James post season advantage. FOr Worthy to have a Finals MVP means more to me than Pippens All Defensive teams.TO have stepped up and played above the level of a TOP 5 GOAT in a FINals means a lot to me. In 6 attempts Pippen was unable to do this.

lastly WHen I saw the numbers and saw Worthy's advantage in ppg during the season and playoffs gives him the edge to me.

If you think saying Pippen is a better handler is silly because of there difference in positions and skills, then why are you even comparing the two?

Not sure what kind of basketball you have played in your life, but the game is half offense, half defense. Defense is HALF of the game. One finals series MVP should not be considered greater than Pippen's arguably greatest overall defense for over a whole decade. I'm sorry, but anything else just makes you a homer.

I am being real here, there is just simply no strong argument for Worthy being above Pippen. You mentioned Pippen's numbers dropping significantly after he joined a different team. Did you not read any of my posts? Have you no retort to those, or do you simply have nothing to say to retort back?


TO have stepped up and played above the level of a TOP 5 GOAT in a FINals means a lot to me.

Worthy's game 7 is among the best in the history of the finals, but he did not play like that the entire series. Did he deserve that MVP? Absolutely. Was his play that series a TOP 5 GOAT play? No it wasn't. I can take half of Jordan's final series and 1 or two of Shaq's and that already bumps Worthy's out.

You are entitled to your own opinion, which is fair and all. But when you post a topic and 90+ % of the people give you sound info and arguments for why Pippen deserves it, maybe it's time to lay off rooting for the other guy.

[97 bulls]

I think with most things it isnt if you saw the 2 or not play but how much time and hype has passed to favor 1 player over another.WHen Pippen came into the league many called him soft many accused him of running to his brother Jordan when games got hard . often times the Pistons bullied him.Worthy came in as a NO 1 draft pick NCAA champion on to a championship team. So although Worthy came in with more acclaim he was not instantly inserted into the spotlight.

Pippen had more PG/SG/SF skills where as Worthy was more of a Power Forward/Swing Forward . So to say Pippen was a better ball handler is some what silly.
TO say Pippen made 7 All NBA Teams how many would he had won if he played in the era of Larry Bird,Dr J, Dominique ,Bernard King I question if he would have made any first team.

The big thing for me is BIG Game James post season advantage. FOr Worthy to have a Finals MVP means more to me than Pippens All Defensive teams.TO have stepped up and played above the level of a TOP 5 GOAT in a FINals means a lot to me. In 6 attempts Pippen was unable to do this.

lastly WHen I saw the numbers and saw Worthy's advantage in ppg during the season and playoffs gives him the edge to me.
Good argument with regards to the all-nba teams. But I would submit that pippen in the 80s would've had a few seasons with 26 ppg, 9 rebs, and 7 assts. Factor in his defense, and I think he would've taken a few off those all-nba teams from bird. Not all but maybe 2. And even still, he would've gotton them over worthy.

And its funny that you give worthy a pass for winning 3rd team all-nba honors by alluding to the other small forwards in the league, but then knock pippen for not winning a finals mvp even though jordan was in the picture. Be consistant bro.

Im also curious, what numbers were you looking at? Cuz pippen was even a better scorer than worthy during their prime years. Especially considering the offense the two teams ran and the time in which they played. Pippen was flat out a better scorer.

I think the biggest indictment against worthy was the fact that at 32 yrs old he was a bench player that could start over george lynch. Thanx jlauber for that info.

Worthy was great, but I do feel he was a product of magic and the fast break offense that they ran in LA.

[Niquesports]

If you think saying Pippen is a better handler is silly because of there difference in positions and skills, then why are you even comparing the two?

Not sure what kind of basketball you have played in your life, but the game is half offense, half defense. Defense is HALF of the game. One finals series MVP should not be considered greater than Pippen's arguably greatest overall defense for over a whole decade. I'm sorry, but anything else just makes you a homer.

I am being real here, there is just simply no strong argument for Worthy being above Pippen. You mentioned Pippen's numbers dropping significantly after he joined a different team. Did you not read any of my posts? Have you no retort to those, or do you simply have nothing to say to retort back?



Worthy's game 7 is among the best in the history of the finals, but he did not play like that the entire series. Did he deserve that MVP? Absolutely. Was his play that series a TOP 5 GOAT play? No it wasn't. I can take half of Jordan's final series and 1 or two of Shaq's and that already bumps Worthy's out.

You are entitled to your own opinion, which is fair and all. But when you post a topic and 90+ % of the people give you sound info and arguments for why Pippen deserves it, maybe it's time to lay off rooting for the other guy.


Let me just make a few points.

First Scottie Pippens all Defense teams some other players who have also had several All Defense Teams Mark Eaton, Ben Wallace,Mookie Blaylock. Dont get me wrong Pippens Defense made him a very special player but Rodman was maybe as great a defender and a much better rebounder and I dont see anyone calling him a top player during thoses years. I just feel the Showtime lakers are a very underrated Defensive team. YOu dont win 5 title and make 9 finals unless you are a Top defending teamthat includes Magic and Worthy.

I think Im more hoping more people would review Worthy's greatness than I am trying to knock Pippen's.Worthy played with 4 to 5 scorers Pippen played with only 1 yet Worth's numbers are better does that not favor Worthy ?
WOrthy's playoff numbers are better than Pippen against the likes of Bird and THe Pistons can Pip say this.

WIth that being said to retort you point on Pip with other teams He may not have been at the very peek of his prime but he was still considered on top of his game at least with Portland. The Blazer fans were very dissapointed that he was unable to lift them to a championship team.

I respect your view as well as most other Ish posters who are able to support their opinion in stead of just saying Im right your and your an idiot.

[1987_Lakers]

Good argument with regards to the all-nba teams. But I would submit that pippen in the 80s would've had a few seasons with 26 ppg, 9 rebs, and 7 assts. Factor in his defense, and I think he would've taken a few off those all-nba teams from bird. Not all but maybe 2. And even still, he would've gotton them over worthy.

Pippen isn't taking any All-NBA First Teams from '80-'88 Bird. Don't be ridiculous.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was not top 5 in '92. Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Drexler, Malone, Ewing, and DRob were all better. Pippen has a case for top 5 for like 2-3 seasons starting in '95.
What's your opinion on whose better old school?

[Niquesports]

Good argument with regards to the all-nba teams. But I would submit that pippen in the 80s would've had a few seasons with 26 ppg, 9 rebs, and 7 assts. Factor in his defense, and I think he would've taken a few off those all-nba teams from bird. Not all but maybe 2. And even still, he would've gotton them over worthy.

And its funny that you give worthy a pass for winning 3rd team all-nba honors by alluding to the other small forwards in the league, but then knock pippen for not winning a finals mvp even though jordan was in the picture. Be consistant bro.

Im also curious, what numbers were you looking at? Cuz pippen was even a better scorer than worthy during their prime years. Especially considering the offense the two teams ran and the time in which they played. Pippen was flat out a better scorer.

I think the biggest indictment against worthy was the fact that at 32 yrs old he was a bench player that could start over george lynch. Thanx jlauber for that info.

Worthy was great, but I do feel he was a product of magic and the fast break offense that they ran in LA.

I know you have a deep support for anything Bulls but I know and respect your knowledge enough to know not even you really think Pippen would beat out Bird for 1 team .

Winning the finals MVP on a Laker team with Magic means something just as if Pippen had did it at least once in 6 tries.

I kills me when people try and inflate peoples numbers in an attempt to compare eras that is fantasy basketball you cant say if he would have done better or worst. ALso who knows how much Worthy could have avg. if the lakers didnt have other scores like Kareem,Scott,Cooper even with less players to share the scoring load Worthy still out scored Pippen.

Who was the better scorer for 7 straight years Worthy avg. 19 or more
Pippen only avg 19 or more for 5 straight years.

As far as the Defense goes Yes that is what makes this so interesting but consider this if you were comparing Isiah to Gary Payton would Paytons D give him the edge ?

But Bulls I love going at it with you. I have big respect even though you are a homer.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Let me just make a few points.

First Scottie Pippens all Defense teams some other players who have also had several All Defense Teams Mark Eaton, Ben Wallace,Mookie Blaylock. Dont get me wrong Pippens Defense made him a very special player but Rodman was maybe as great a defender and a much better rebounder and I dont see anyone calling him a top player during thoses years. I just feel the Showtime lakers are a very underrated Defensive team. YOu dont win 5 title and make 9 finals unless you are a Top defending teamthat includes Magic and Worthy.

I think Im more hoping more people would review Worthy's greatness than I am trying to knock Pippen's.Worthy played with 4 to 5 scorers Pippen played with only 1 yet Worth's numbers are better does that not favor Worthy ?
WOrthy's playoff numbers are better than Pippen against the likes of Bird and THe Pistons can Pip say this.

WIth that being said to retort you point on Pip with other teams He may not have been at the very peek of his prime but he was still considered on top of his game at least with Portland. The Blazer fans were very dissapointed that he was unable to lift them to a championship team.

I respect your view as well as most other Ish posters who are able to support their opinion in stead of just saying Im right your and your an idiot.

I am sorry for the bluntness but you are looking like an idiot now. Your facts and analysis is just so misconstrued and uninformed.

He was considered on top of his game at least with Portland? The dude had been in the league for more than 12 years. No... he was CLEARLY NOT on top of his game. The Blazers fans were dissapointed.... uggh of course, which fan isn't dissapointed they didn't win a championship. That Portland team before Pippen joined had the second best record in the Western Conference. That was already a well established team. He was sent to Portland mostly for his veteran leadership and ability to glue a team together.

Also don't really understand your first sentence due to lack of periods and general grammar. I am assuming your giving examples of other great defenders and asking why they aren't considered top players at the time. Your example was Rodman. Rodman was amazing on rebounds and defense, and he rightfully gets his dues for his importance on those 3 champion-ship winning Bulls games. But to ask why Pippen is considered a top player whereas Rodman wasn't just proves to me that theres no point in arguing with you anymore.

oh and by the way, here is Pippen's post season averages:

17.5 / 7.6 / 5

Here's Worthy's post season stats

21.1 / 5.2 / 3.2

Just looking at the numbers, any coach or fan would take 17.5/7.6/5 over 21.2/5.2/3.2 anyday. So don't make it out like Worthy was better in the post-season like it's a fact without any data or decent analysis.


Oh, and Worthy most def did not partake in 5 titles or 9 final appearances. I think you are mistakening Magic with Worthy :no:

I honestly feel like you just started watching basketball 1 or two years ago and you just happened to love the way that Show-time lakers played. Again sorry for the bluntness man but I'm done here.

[Ne 1]

Pippen was not top 5 in '92. Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Drexler, Malone, Ewing, and DRob were all better. Pippen has a case for top 5 for like 2-3 seasons starting in '95.

I thought '92 was one of his best years and was arguably top 5 that season. Not to mention Pippen was perhaps at his athletic peak that '92 season.

9th in MVP voting, during the season put up 21/8/7, in the playoffs 20/9/7, Was third in defensive player of the year voting, made the All-Defensive 1st team and nearly averaged a triple double in the Finals. :bowdown:

[Ne 1]

Also not only was Pippen a top 5 player for several years, he also had a case for the top player in the league early in the '96 season.

''They are saying that this is an MVP season for you.''

''This guy gives them all the elements on the court that are unattainable anywhere else, he's got that long wingspan, plays defense, makes 3's, make great passes, gets clutch rebounds, goes up and down the floor...gracefully.''

''Is he as good as his teammate?''

''Well as a matter of fact technically he is right now but he dosen't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things in a package that is unsurpassed in the NBA today but I don't think he's gonna get to take the last shot with Michael on his team.''

The Pippen for MVP campaign was huge in the first couple of months of that season. You have to realize this is at a time when Pippen was coming off one of the best statistical months of his career (26/7/6 on 55%), won player of the month and it's right after Pippen had proved himself as being capable of leading a team without MJ (lot of people used to think Pippen was overrated during first three peat and he silenced all of those critics in '94).

Read any number of articles at the time, watch a game, listen to the interviews, and you will find a ton of people who were saying Pippen was the MVP of the Bulls. I think even MJ was supporting the whole Pippen MVP thing at the time too, went as far as to call the Bulls "Pippen's team".

James Worthy wasn't ever on that level. Peak Pippen> peak Worthy easily.

[Niquesports]

I am sorry for the bluntness but you are looking like an idiot now. Your facts and analysis is just so misconstrued and uninformed.

He was considered on top of his game at least with Portland? The dude had been in the league for more than 12 years. No... he was CLEARLY NOT on top of his game. The Blazers fans were dissapointed.... uggh of course, which fan isn't dissapointed they didn't win a championship. That Portland team before Pippen joined had the second best record in the Western Conference. That was already a well established team. He was sent to Portland mostly for his veteran leadership and ability to glue a team together.

Also don't really understand your first sentence due to lack of periods and general grammar. I am assuming your giving examples of other great defenders and asking why they aren't considered top players at the time. Your example was Rodman. Rodman was amazing on rebounds and defense, and he rightfully gets his dues for his importance on those 3 champion-ship winning Bulls games. But to ask why Pippen is considered a top player whereas Rodman wasn't just proves to me that theres no point in arguing with you anymore.

oh and by the way, here is Pippen's post season averages:

17.5 / 7.6 / 5

Here's Worthy's post season stats

21.1 / 5.2 / 3.2

Just looking at the numbers, any coach or fan would take 17.5/7.6/5 over 21.2/5.2/3.2 anyday. So don't make it out like Worthy was better in the post-season like it's a fact without any data or decent analysis.


Oh, and Worthy most def did not partake in 5 titles or 9 final appearances. I think you are mistakening Magic with Worthy :no:

I honestly feel like you just started watching basketball 1 or two years ago and you just happened to love the way that Show-time lakers played. Again sorry for the bluntness man but I'm done here.


No problem on the bluntness and sorry for the grammer but on this board I type as if Im talking not handing in a term paper.

As a matter of fact i have been watching basketball since 1970 and to judge my opinion as a lack of knowledge is in the eye of the beholder i can say the same about yours.

As far as the numbers they may be close enough as a whole but as highlights BIG Game James over shadows Pippen's.

As far as the 5 titles and 9 finals I was talking about the Lakers team and the lack of appreciation they get for thier defense.

As far as Pippen being just some old guy who could give the young guys a pep talk . Sorry yo missed alot of baskeball. Wasnt Pippen coming off a championship year or was he in his 11th year on the decline ?

[97 bulls]

I know you have a deep support for anything Bulls but I know and respect your knowledge enough to know not even you really think Pippen would beat out Bird for 1 team .

Winning the finals MVP on a Laker team with Magic means something just as if Pippen had did it at least once in 6 tries.

I kills me when people try and inflate peoples numbers in an attempt to compare eras that is fantasy basketball you cant say if he would have done better or worst. ALso who knows how much Worthy could have avg. if the lakers didnt have other scores like Kareem,Scott,Cooper even with less players to share the scoring load Worthy still out scored Pippen.

Who was the better scorer for 7 straight years Worthy avg. 19 or more
Pippen only avg 19 or more for 5 straight years.

As far as the Defense goes Yes that is what makes this so interesting but consider this if you were comparing Isiah to Gary Payton would Paytons D give him the edge ?

But Bulls I love going at it with you. I have big respect even though you are a homer.
I have a "deep" support? I don't know about that. But after looking at their respective numbers, if pippeen does exactly what he did in career but infused in the 80s. He wouldn't have beaten bird in any year. Its just too shady to call. He's probably not beating bird. You guys (nique and 87) are right.

[Ne 1]

Wasnt Pippen coming off a championship year or was he in his 11th year on the decline ?

He suffered a back injury in the '98 Finals and was never the same player after taking a million Malone charges. He was in his 11th year, 34 years old and clearly past his prime.

Don't know what your trying to get at here with this ridiculous notion that Pippen is the player he is because of Jordan.

All great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen" nonsense really has to stop.

[MasterDurant24]

Pippen and it isn't even close. Top 5 defender of all time, one of the best passing forwards, a great rebounder, and was just a more skilled player than Worthy. Actually, a ton of people were more skilled than Worthy.

[Kellogs4toniee]

As far as the numbers they may be close enough as a whole but as highlights BIG Game James over shadows Pippen's.

Ok Worthy has more highlights and was consistently able to step up his game in the playoffs. I never said Worthy wasn't. But.... THAT's IT? So that's your basis for him being a better overall player? Even after all the data and information you received in this thread? Blind more? O i'm sorry, I'm talking to a guy who thinks Rodman should be considered a top player in the league like Pippen during there primes because he also had great defense.


As far as the 5 titles and 9 finals I was talking about the Lakers team and the lack of appreciation they get for thier defense.

Ok.... that statement looks good for the Lakers. Doesn't really do anything to back up Worthy. Back to my original point: Pippen dominates Worthy on the defensive-side. Regardless of the game-plan or tempo of the teams, the matter of fact is that Pippen has 10 all-defensive awards and Worthy has none. Defense is half the game.


As far as Pippen being just some old guy who could give the young guys a pep talk . Sorry yo missed alot of baskeball. Wasnt Pippen coming off a championship year or was he in his 11th year on the decline ?

Yes, small forwards generally decline past 10+ years. What happened after Worthy played 10 years in the league? His PPG decreased by 5. I don't even need to mention rebounds or assists because Pippen has him beat on all accounts throughout there careers. Or how about the years after Magic left, when his field goal percentage dropped almost 5% to below 45%?

You also then left out the parts where I explained the man just entered a new system after playing in the same triangle system for his entire career. THEN one year later, he goes to another team with another system.

Try again.

[MasterDurant24]

Pippen and it isn't even close. Top 5 defender of all time, one of the best passing forwards, a great rebounder, and was just a more skilled player than Worthy. Actually, a ton of people were more skilled than Worthy.

[wakencdukest]

Pippen was an all around better player. More versatile, better defender, better passer, and could play on the perimeter. That said, Worthy was a beast. He played bigger than most small forwards and was quicker than most power forwards. I've seen him school just about every big man in the league throughout the 80's. The length he had and the fact that he held the ball so high in the air, Made his shot almost unblockable. Plus the fact that he was so quick, with a variety of spin moves and finger rolls, made it hard to guard him. I've probably seen Worthy posterize more people than any player i've seen other than Jordan or Shaq. He was definitely a match up problem for most forwards in the league, luckily for them he was only the third option. He was definitely a unique player, one that gets overlooked by a lot of people, especially the younger fans.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's your opinion on whose better old school?

These players were better than Pippen imo:

'91 - Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'92 - Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'93 - Shaq, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing
'94 - Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing, Shaq

After that he has a case for top 5. lol @ the notion that Pippen in the 80's would have beaten out Bird for first team selection in any season from '80-'88. :oldlol:

[nycelt84]

I have a "deep" support? I don't know about that. But after looking at their respective numbers, if pippeen does exactly what he did in career but infused in the 80s. He wouldn't have beaten bird in any year. Its just too shady to call. He's probably not beating bird. You guys (nique and 87) are right.

So what? Players aren't selected to All-NBA teams based on SF or PF. Players are selected simply by position as there have been several years where 2 SFs were on the 1st team or 2 PFs were on the 1st team.

[97 bulls]

These players were better than Pippen imo:

'91 - Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'92 - Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'93 - Shaq, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing
'94 - Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing, Shaq

After that he has a case for top 5. lol @ the notion that Pippen in the 80's would have beaten out Bird for first team selection in any season from '80-'88. :oldlol:
Actually, I was refering to the thread question. Who do you think is better between pip and worthy?

But since you made the list, I agree with 91 or have no argument. 92 I think pippen was better than ewing and drexler, or at least tied with them. 93 I think he's got ewing, and 94 he's got ewing.

[97 bulls]

So what? Players aren't selected to All-NBA teams based on SF or PF. Players are selected simply by position as there have been several years where 2 SFs were on the 1st team or 2 PFs were on the 1st team.
So you think he could've made a few all nba teams in the 80s? If so who does he bump in what year or years?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually, I was refering to the thread question. Who do you think is better between pip and worthy?

But since you made the list, I agree with 91 or have no argument. 92 I think pippen was better than ewing and drexler, or at least tied with them. 93 I think he's got ewing, and 94 he's got ewing.

Sorry, but Pippen in '92 is not better than 25/7/7 second in MVP voting Drexler, nor is he better than Ewing in any year before '95 imo. Ewing averaged 24.5 pts/11.5 reb/2.6 blk/51% FG from '92-'94 and anchored legendary defenses, and did it as the first option seeing first option defensive attention. Better than Pippen pretty clearly.

On the topic question, I'd take Pippen over Worthy, with the caveat that Worthy was a better big game player and could explode offensively in ways Pippen could not. He was also a much more efficient offensive player in both the regular season and especially the postseason.

[1987_Lakers]

So you think he could've made a few all nba teams in the 80s? If so who does he bump in what year or years?

Put 1990 Pippen in 1980 I'd say he makes it in...

84 over King
85 over King
86 over Wilkins

[97 bulls]

Sorry, but Pippen in '92 is not better than 25/7/7 second in MVP voting Drexler, nor is he better than Ewing in any year before '95 imo. Ewing averaged 24.5 pts/11.5 reb/2.6 blk/51% FG from '92-'94 and anchored legendary defenses, and did it as the first option seeing first option defensive attention. Better than Pippen pretty clearly.

On the topic question, I'd take Pippen over Worthy, with the caveat that Worthy was a better big game player and could explode offensively in ways Pippen could not. He was also a much more efficient offensive player in both the regular season and especially the postseason.
Lol you just can't give pip any kind of credit without adding a little criticism can you?

[97 bulls]

Put 1990 Pippen in 1980 I'd say he makes it in...

84 over King
85 over King
86 over Wilkins
Ok, hey you gotta give me some credit for agreeing that pip wouldn't have bumped bird though. Im not a pippen homer like some guys paint me out to be

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL Pippen is NOT bumping a 33/6/4/53% player (King) off the all-NBA team in 1985. Get real please. Not sure he'd bump him in '84 either, but that's a lot closer.

[97 bulls]

LOL Pippen is NOT bumping a 33/6/4/53% player (King) off the all-NBA team in 1985. Get real please. Not sure he'd bump him in '84 either, but that's a lot closer.
This is the problem when comparing eras. King isn't gonna avg 33 ppg during the time pippen played. Maybe 28-29. Things are just different between the twon timeframes. You've even stated that pippen in the 80s is a 24-25 ppg player along with 8 or 9 rebds and 7 assists. Factore in his defense and I can see it happening.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is the problem when comparing eras. King isn't gonna avg 33 ppg during the time pippen played. Maybe 28-29. Things are just different between the twon timeframes. You've even stated that pippen in the 80s is a 24-25 ppg player along with 8 or 9 rebds and 7 assists. Factore in his defense and I can see it happening.

Uhh, a 34 year old King post-knee surgeries averaged 29 ppg in 1991, firmly within Pippen's "era." No reason to believe a young/prime King couldn't average 30+ in any year of the 90's on better efficiency than Pippen (not 53% FG maybe, but perhaps 48-51% depending on the year in question).

[branslowski]

Is there a reason why you (oldschoolbball) is in every Pippen thread seemingly trying to underrate him/ borderline hate on him?...Not really accusing you, just seems that way...I just wanna know why...Dude was a big reason Jordan won multiple titles...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Is there a reason why you (oldschoolbball) is in every Pippen thread seemingly trying to underrate him/ borderline hate on him?...Not really accusing you, just seems that way...I just wanna know why...Dude was a big reason Jordan won multiple titles...

How am I undermining/hating on him? By saying that guys like Dream/DRob/Ewing/Barkley etc. were better than him? News flash: they were.

Or am I hating on him by suggesting that he's not going to supplant a 33/6/4/53% player who had one of the best scoring seasons in history from the All-NBA first team? Where's the hate?

[97 bulls]

Uhh, a 34 year old King post-knee surgeries averaged 29 ppg in 1991, firmly within Pippen's "era." No reason to believe a young/prime King couldn't average 30+ in any year of the 90's on better efficiency than Pippen (not 53% FG maybe, but perhaps 48-51% depending on the year in question).
First of all, I wouldn't call 91 "firmly". There was still some residue from the 80s that spilled over from that era to the next. He wouldn't be avg 30 ppg in the mid 90s.

[OldSchoolBBall]

First of all, I wouldn't call 91 "firmly". There was still some residue from the 80s that spilled over from that era to the next. He wouldn't be avg 30 ppg in the mid 90s.

My ass that a 34 year old hobbled player who averaged 28+ ppg in 1991 can't average 30 ppg as a young, healthy player just 2-4 years later. Bullsh&t, quite frankly.

[97 bulls]

My ass that a 34 year old hobbled player who averaged 28+ ppg in 1991 can't average 30 ppg as a young, healthy player just 2-4 years later. Bullsh&t, quite frankly.
Hobbled? Come on man, ill give you old but he's always been hobbled due to injuries, he was just brittle. His injury problems were nothing new. And like I said earlier, do the math, less shots mean less points.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Hobbled? Come on man, ill give you old but he's always been hobbled due to injuries, he was just brittle. His injury problems were nothing new. And like I said earlier, do the math, less shots mean less points.

King had like 2 knee surgeries the year or two seasons prior to that, so no, he wasnt always hobbled. And why are we assuming that he'd take fewer shots for some reason? He took 23.7 attempts per game the year he averaged 33 ppg, and that # of attempts has been matched or exceeded several times by various players in slower paced leagues than even the mid-90's. Pace does not affect the # of possessions used or shots taken by superstar, first option players.

[Niquesports]

Put 1990 Pippen in 1980 I'd say he makes it in...

84 over King
85 over King
86 over Wilkins
This is why I rank Worthy above Pippen. As skilled as he was he just wasnt a first option player on the level of a King or Wikins. Worthy was much closer.But anyone that thinks Pippen would replace King in those 2 years at least needs to get off ish go to youtube,by a few basketball books and find an older guy that saw King play and just listen.

[Teanett]

...needs to get off ish go to youtube,by a few basketball books and find an older guy that saw King play and just listen.

youtube, books and old farts;
so that's were you get your basketball knowledge.
i thought you were simply a moron.

[97 bulls]

King had like 2 knee surgeries the year or two seasons prior to that, so no, he wasnt always hobbled. And why are we assuming that he'd take fewer shots for some reason? He took 23.7 attempts per game the year he averaged 33 ppg, and that # of attempts has been matched or exceeded several times by various players in slower paced leagues than even the mid-90's. Pace does not affect the # of possessions used or shots taken by superstar, first option players.
Im sure that if we looked there's far more guys that shooting 20 plus shot a game in the early and mid 80s as opposed to the mid and late 90s. Not saying that there weren't guys taking that many shot, but not as many. Or even double figure attempts for that matter.

[necya]

come on 97 bulls, you say bullshit.
Pippen even if he had an incredible year in 92 was not better than Drexler.
then, he would bump King off the all nba first team in 84-85...do you have already watched young King ??

thanks oldschoolbasketball to remind who where the reel Bernard.

Niquesports : how to say that...please stop making threads, saying : "Worthy was a better at filling the lane and finishing"

this was just the type of play of the Lakers !? showtime, do you remember? transition offense, fastbreak, very unselfish game to create spaces...
put pippen in a transition game and put worthy in a slow pace, set offense...

[Niquesports]

youtube, books and old farts;
so that's were you get your basketball knowledge.
i thought you were simply a moron.
Well sorry to disappoint you but I get my basketball knowledge from playing the game watching the game for over 40 years and being around people that have forgot more basketball than you know. So you continue to play and get your knowledge fromm NBA live and get a life nerd.

[Niquesports]

come on 97 bulls, you say bullshit.
Pippen even if he had an incredible year in 92 was not better than Drexler.
then, he would bump King off the all nba first team in 84-85...do you have already watched young King ??

thanks oldschoolbasketball to remind who where the reel Bernard.

Niquesports : how to say that...please stop making threads, saying : "Worthy was a better at filling the lane and finishing"

this was just the type of play of the Lakers !? showtime, do you remember? transition offense, fastbreak, very unselfish game to create spaces...
put pippen in a transition game and put worthy in a slow pace, set offense...


This same mindset is why the 87-88 Lakers dont get the respect they should. THe little respect they get for the half court sets. Remember a guy named Kareem and the sky hook,remember a guy name Byron Scott shooting 3's remember a guy named Kurt rambis getting garbage buckets. Remember Worthy and his quick first step and spin moves on the post up. The Showtime Lakers were more than just a run and gun ala Suns 80's Nuggets team they were one of the most complete teams of all time.

[necya]

This same mindset is why the 87-88 Lakers dont get the respect they should. THe little respect they get for the half court sets. Remember a guy named Kareem and the sky hook,remember a guy name Byron Scott shooting 3's remember a guy named Kurt rambis getting garbage buckets. Remember Worthy and his quick first step and spin moves on the post up. The Showtime Lakers were more than just a run and gun ala Suns 80's Nuggets team they were one of the most complete teams of all time.

you don't understand...
i have never said i resumed the lakers as a run and gun team, i have over 200 games of the lakers in the 80's.
my point was worthy benefited of the style of play, he won't be as efficient with the pistons in the late 80's for exemple.

[97 bulls]

come on 97 bulls, you say bullshit.
Pippen even if he had an incredible year in 92 was not better than Drexler.
then, he would bump King off the all nba first team in 84-85...do you have already watched young King ??

thanks oldschoolbasketball to remind who where the reel Bernard.

Niquesports : how to say that...please stop making threads, saying : "Worthy was a better at filling the lane and finishing"

this was just the type of play of the Lakers !? showtime, do you remember? transition offense, fastbreak, very unselfish game to create spaces...
put pippen in a transition game and put worthy in a slow pace, set offense...
First of all, I didn't say he would bump king, 87 lakers did. I said he wouldn't make an all nba in the 80s cuz his stats don't match up statistically. Old school as usual knocked pippen like its out of the question and I said essentially the same thing you said factoring in the eras, and the styles tht the leagues played if pippen played in the 80s his stats would be higher. And if his stats are higher, and factoring in his defense, there is room for argument.

[aau]

Pippen was not top 5 in '92. Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Drexler, Malone, Ewing, and DRob were all better. Pippen has a case for top 5 for like 2-3 seasons starting in '95.

wanted to make sure i wasn't trippin on pippen
i thought he was top 3 for most of the 90s
with this season "1992" being his best

.

pippen

82g - 21/8/7/2/1 50% // PS 22g 19/9/7/2/1 47%

9th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 1stT DEF - 10th PTS - 10th ASST

.

drexler

76g - 25/6/6/2/1 47% // PS 21g 26/7/7/1/1 46%

2nd MVP - 1stT NBA - 4th PPG

.

barkley

75g 23/11/4/2/0 55% // 35-47 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

12th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 8th PPG - 10th RPG

.

hakeem

70g 21/12/2/2/4 50% // 42-40 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

5th RPG - 2nd BPG

.

malone

81g 28/11/3/1/0 52% // PS 16g 29/11/2/1/1 52%

4th MVP - 1stT NBA - 2nd PPG - 9th RPG

.

ewing

82g 24/11/2/1/3 52% // PS 12g 22/11/2/0/2 45%

5th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 2ndT DEF - 5th PPG - 8th RPG - 4th BPG

.

d rob

68g 23/12/2/2/4 55% // 47-35 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

3rd MVP - 1stT NBA - 1stT DEF - 7th PPG - 4th RPG - 5th SPG - 1st BPG

..........
......

no way in hell barkley was better than pippen this year

hakeem - barely .500 - no playoffs . . . . . . . nope

ewing - ZERO 1stT honors - 45% postseason
lmao

drob had a productive year - no playoffs
impact?

karl had a great reg. and postseason

......
....

don't understand how clyde finished over karl in mvp voting
as for clyde vs pippen ,, drex scored a lil more , that's it
(he never came close to making an all-defensive team)

.

FINALS (6g)

drexler - 25/8/5/1/1 40% (shot above 43% ONCE)

pippen - 21/8/7/1/1 48% (shot less than 53% just TWICE)

.......
.....
...

evenstill , i can see a case for clyde and karl

but barkley , hakeem , ewing and robinson

.

.

no way lok

[32jazz]

These players were better than Pippen imo:

'91 - Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'92 - Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Drexler, Ewing
'93 - Shaq, Jordan, Barkley, Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing
'94 - Dream, DRob, Malone, Ewing, Shaq

After that he has a case for top 5. lol @ the notion that Pippen in the 80's would have beaten out Bird for first team selection in any season from '80-'88. :oldlol:

Stop with the silly worship(Bird is human). The difference between NBA greats is not as big as you guys hype it up to be.

Pippen was just as good an all around player as Bird.

[97 bulls]

Stop with the silly worship(Bird is human). The difference between NBA greats is not as big as you guys hype it up to be.

Pippen was just as good an all around player as Bird.
I just checked bird won the mvp in in-84 avg 24/10/7 on 49% pippen in 94 avg 22/9/6 on 49%. Bird did win a championship, and pippens bulls won 55 games and, well, we all know the story. Factor in pips defense and the fact that all his stats go up if he played in the 80s and..... well, im just saying. Its closer than you guys may think. And after further review, he'd get the all-nba over king this year in my opinion.

[Niquesports]

I just checked bird won the mvp in in-84 avg 24/10/7 on 49% pippen in 94 avg 22/9/6 on 49%. Bird did win a championship, and pippens bulls won 55 games and, well, we all know the story. Factor in pips defense and the fact that all his stats go up if he played in the 80s and..... well, im just saying. Its closer than you guys may think. And after further review, he'd get the all-nba over king this year in my opinion.



This is where you get people like myself who step in and bring you back to earth when it comes to Pippen. At best Pipppen was a 3rd tier player no matter what the numbers may show the eyes dont lie. Pippen didnt have the leadership game or attitude to lead the Knicks to be a playoff team as king did. Not to mention be the backbone to a team like the Celtics. ITs not close at all when you look at attitude Russell,magic,Jordan,Bird,Thomas,oscar,Kobe all had it. Other players were very skillful but didnt have that "it" Pippen is one of them. I respect you as a basketball fan but i can't believe you saw King if you believe he was any way near the player King was in his prime at his peek.

[necya]

First of all, I didn't say he would bump king, 87 lakers did. I said he wouldn't make an all nba in the 80s cuz his stats don't match up statistically. Old school as usual knocked pippen like its out of the question and I said essentially the same thing you said factoring in the eras, and the styles tht the leagues played if pippen played in the 80s his stats would be higher. And if his stats are higher, and factoring in his defense, there is room for argument.

ok i see.
but this factor things don't count, in order to say his numbers maybe would not increase, but no matter the numbers, the only thing who counts is how the guy is playing on the court.

don't misunderstand my words, Pippen is in my top 3 all time forwards. but i don't count or care if the player was injured or not.
King in 85 was in my eyes the closest to MJ on the offensive hand. it's like Penny hardaway, without seeing him play in his prime (i mean he was injured at 26yo, he was just entering his prime) he is the best guard i've seen since MJ. talking about him, Pippen said in 97 that penny was the toughest player he has ever guarded and MJ said in 96 the only player he would pass the torch of greatness was penny hardaway.

[juju151111]

Stop with the silly worship(Bird is human). The difference between NBA greats is not as big as you guys hype it up to be.

Pippen was just as good an all around player as Bird.
Pippen isn't on Bird level. When Pip breaks out in his 3rd and 4th season Bird was racking up MVPS. LOL comparing Prime Bird to Prime Pip. 84 Bird>>>94 PIP

[97 bulls]

This is where you get people like myself who step in and bring you back to earth when it comes to Pippen. At best Pipppen was a 3rd tier player no matter what the numbers may show the eyes dont lie. Pippen didnt have the leadership game or attitude to lead the Knicks to be a playoff team as king did. Not to mention be the backbone to a team like the Celtics. ITs not close at all when you look at attitude Russell,magic,Jordan,Bird,Thomas,oscar,Kobe all had it. Other players were very skillful but didnt have that "it" Pippen is one of them. I respect you as a basketball fan but i can't believe you saw King if you believe he was any way near the player King was in his prime at his peek.
I saw king, he was a beast offensively. Like I said in a previous post, his body held him back. But pippen did put up bird type numbers in a slower era. And bird won the mvp over king putting up numbers similar to pippen. All I can say is the facts are the facts. Take them as you will.

[Niquesports]

I saw king, he was a beast offensively. Like I said in a previous post, his body held him back. But pippen did put up bird type numbers in a slower era. And bird won the mvp over king putting up numbers similar to pippen. All I can say is the facts are the facts. Take them as you will.

Numbers similar and impact on court are different. World B Free was a big time scorer for about 3 years yet i dont ever hear anyone calling him a top offensive player yet he had similar numbers to Iverson.

[nycelt84]

This is where you get people like myself who step in and bring you back to earth when it comes to Pippen. At best Pipppen was a 3rd tier player no matter what the numbers may show the eyes dont lie. Pippen didnt have the leadership game or attitude to lead the Knicks to be a playoff team as king did. Not to mention be the backbone to a team like the Celtics. ITs not close at all when you look at attitude Russell,magic,Jordan,Bird,Thomas,oscar,Kobe all had it. Other players were very skillful but didnt have that "it" Pippen is one of them. I respect you as a basketball fan but i can't believe you saw King if you believe he was any way near the player King was in his prime at his peek.

This makes absolutely no sense. The farthest King ever lead his team to is a 2nd round where the Knicks were blown out in several games. Pippen led his team to one of the closest 2nd round series ever and a WCF in 2000 while past his prime. Pippen was much more of a winner than King who never was even on a 50 win team could ever hope to be.

[OldSchoolBBall]

wanted to make sure i wasn't trippin on pippen
i thought he was top 3 for most of the 90s
with this season "1992" being his best

.

pippen

82g - 21/8/7/2/1 50% // PS 22g 19/9/7/2/1 47%

9th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 1stT DEF - 10th PTS - 10th ASST

.

drexler

76g - 25/6/6/2/1 47% // PS 21g 26/7/7/1/1 46%

2nd MVP - 1stT NBA - 4th PPG

.

barkley

75g 23/11/4/2/0 55% // 35-47 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

12th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 8th PPG - 10th RPG

.

hakeem

70g 21/12/2/2/4 50% // 42-40 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

5th RPG - 2nd BPG

.

malone

81g 28/11/3/1/0 52% // PS 16g 29/11/2/1/1 52%

4th MVP - 1stT NBA - 2nd PPG - 9th RPG

.

ewing

82g 24/11/2/1/3 52% // PS 12g 22/11/2/0/2 45%

5th MVP - 2ndT NBA - 2ndT DEF - 5th PPG - 8th RPG - 4th BPG

.

d rob

68g 23/12/2/2/4 55% // 47-35 record "MISSED PLAYOFFS"

3rd MVP - 1stT NBA - 1stT DEF - 7th PPG - 4th RPG - 5th SPG - 1st BPG

..........
......

no way in hell barkley was better than pippen this year

hakeem - barely .500 - no playoffs . . . . . . . nope

ewing - ZERO 1stT honors - 45% postseason
lmao

drob had a productive year - no playoffs
impact?

karl had a great reg. and postseason

......
....

don't understand how clyde finished over karl in mvp voting
as for clyde vs pippen ,, drex scored a lil more , that's it
(he never came close to making an all-defensive team)

.

FINALS (6g)

drexler - 25/8/5/1/1 40% (shot above 43% ONCE)

pippen - 21/8/7/1/1 48% (shot less than 53% just TWICE)

.......
.....
...

evenstill , i can see a case for clyde and karl

but barkley , hakeem , ewing and robinson

.

.

no way lok

You're a friggin' moron, quite frankly. LMAO @ "top 3 for most of the 90's." Wow. :oldlol: Pippen was never better than Barkley at any point before '94. lol @ looking at Pip vs. Drexler's Finals #'s when Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention while Pippen wasn't, and while Drexler was being guarded by an all-time defender while Pippen wasnt. You're a joke.

[97 bulls]

This makes absolutely no sense. The farthest King ever lead his team to is a 2nd round where the Knicks were blown out in several games. Pippen led his team to one of the closest 2nd round series ever and a WCF in 2000 while past his prime. Pippen was much more of a winner than King who never was even on a 50 win team could ever hope to be.
Yeah I was gonna say basically the same thing. Loosing jordan and still winning 55 games with pip as the leader along with being 3rd in the mvp voting is prettyhigh impact in my opinion. And free while great was never the scorer iverson was. Even though iverson was a chucker.

[necya]

This makes absolutely no sense. The farthest King ever lead his team to is a 2nd round where the Knicks were blown out in several games. Pippen led his team to one of the closest 2nd round series ever and a WCF in 2000 while past his prime. Pippen was much more of a winner than King who never was even on a 50 win team could ever hope to be.

are you crazy? you are giving yourself why King never had the opportunity to go to the ECF...he didn't have a great team...and in hthis famous second round, he just pushed the celtcis to game 7 !? so "blown out"?

so you call winner guys who have the team to make many wins...:facepalm
so chris mullin is not a winner, because his whole team was full of players without brains?? damn..

[OldSchoolBBall]

Stop with the silly worship(Bird is human). The difference between NBA greats is not as big as you guys hype it up to be.

Pippen was just as good an all around player as Bird.

How is that when he's not nearly as good a scorer, not as good a rebounder, and not nearly as good a passer? Regardless, Bird is on an entirely different level than Pippen - anyone who suggests that they're equivalent or even close has no idea what they're talking about and instantly exposes themselves as Pippen-overrating dullards. Bravo. :oldlol:

[nycelt84]

are you crazy? you are giving yourself why King never had the opportunity to go to the ECF...he didn't have a great team...and in hthis famous second round, he just pushed the celtcis to game 7 !? so "blown out"?

so you call winner guys who have the team to make many wins...:facepalm
so chris mullin is not a winner, because his whole team was full of players without brains?? damn..

Each of the Celtics wins against the Knicks in 84 was a pummeling. King wasn't good enough to take his team to a conference final or even a 50 win season.

[97 bulls]

You're a friggin' moron, quite frankly. LMAO @ "top 3 for most of the 90's." Wow. :oldlol: Pippen was never better than Barkley at any point before '94. lol @ looking at Pip vs. Drexler's Finals #'s when Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention while Pippen wasn't, and while Drexler was being guarded by an all-time defender while Pippen wasnt. You're a joke.
Jerome kersey and clifford robinson weren't slouches when it came to defense. They both were damn good defenders.

[hitmanyr2k]

This is where you get people like myself who step in and bring you back to earth when it comes to Pippen. At best Pipppen was a 3rd tier player no matter what the numbers may show the eyes dont lie. Pippen didnt have the leadership game or attitude to lead the Knicks to be a playoff team as king did. Not to mention be the backbone to a team like the Celtics. ITs not close at all when you look at attitude Russell,magic,Jordan,Bird,Thomas,oscar,Kobe all had it. Other players were very skillful but didnt have that "it" Pippen is one of them. I respect you as a basketball fan but i can't believe you saw King if you believe he was any way near the player King was in his prime at his peek.

Bernard King hardly lead any of his teams anywhere. He reminds me of Iverson where he truly had ONE great playoff year and the rest of his career his playoff performances (of what little he had) were a joke. King for all his "attitude" and scoring hardly made a difference for most of the teams he played for. For some reason people continue to overlook this. You have people pointing out he scored 28 points in '91 but don't mention it was on a team WAY under .500. It's easy to score a lot of points on teams that aren't going anywhere...ask Monta Ellis :oldlol:

[Niquesports]

This makes absolutely no sense. The farthest King ever lead his team to is a 2nd round where the Knicks were blown out in several games. Pippen led his team to one of the closest 2nd round series ever and a WCF in 2000 while past his prime. Pippen was much more of a winner than King who never was even on a 50 win team could ever hope to be.
This is where team sucess gets silly. King never played on a team any way near as complete as the teams Pippen played on. But what keeps Pippen out of the convon of All Time greats and puts his leadership in question are the many times his heart was at question early in his career, and his in a big game he sat down on his team because a TOp 1 or 2 coach thought the better play was to go to Kuckos than tho go to him.

[Niquesports]

Bernard King hardly lead any of his teams anywhere. He reminds me of Iverson where he truly had ONE great playoff year and the rest of his career his playoff performances (of what little he had) were a joke. King for all his "attitude" and scoring hardly made a difference for most of the teams he played for. For some reason people continue to overlook this. You have people pointing out he scored 28 points in '91 but don't mention it was on a team WAY under .500. It's easy to score a lot of points on teams that aren't going anywhere...ask Monta Ellis :oldlol:


Kinda of like Jordan when he scored 63 on a very weak Bulls team huh. Put things in perspective if a player is on a weak team dont knock how that team did. Can you name 3 of the players on Kings team in '91

[97 bulls]

are you crazy? you are giving yourself why King never had the opportunity to go to the ECF...he didn't have a great team...and in hthis famous second round, he just pushed the celtcis to game 7 !? so "blown out"?

so you call winner guys who have the team to make many wins...:facepalm
so chris mullin is not a winner, because his whole team was full of players without brains?? damn..
He was responding to a post in which the term "impact" was used. I don't really think king was as an impactful a player as pippen either.

[necya]

Each of the Celtics wins against the Knicks in 84 was a pummeling. King wasn't good enough to take his team to a conference final or even a 50 win season.

:facepalm yeah you are right he wasn't enough good...or maybe he didn't have parish, mchale and DJ...

jesus, what a day on ish:pimp:

[Niquesports]

Each of the Celtics wins against the Knicks in 84 was a pummeling. King wasn't good enough to take his team to a conference final or even a 50 win season.

Yet King was killing them I guess its his fault the other HOfer's on his team didnt step up.

[aau]

You're a friggin' moron, quite frankly. LMAO @ "top 3 for most of the 90's." Wow. :oldlol: Pippen was never better than Barkley at any point before '94. lol @ looking at Pip vs. Drexler's Finals #'s when Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention while Pippen wasn't, and while Drexler was being guarded by an all-time defender while Pippen wasnt. You're a joke.

that's all you got . . . . . . . . . . . lmao

my daughters hurl greater insults

what's your proof barkley was better lok
no 1stT all league honors , no playoffs
avgd a couple more points & boards

or is it the 35 wins on the season?

and what does it matter who was defending drexler
as a sg he hit 3 of 20 treys . . . is that because
of the defense as well . . . . . . . . . hell naw
the boy couldn't shoot , , simple as that
couldn't dribble with his head up , nor
dribble left if his life depended on it

evenstill , i conceded the season to drexler

but what about ewing , drob & hakeem?

[OldSchoolBBall]

but what about ewing , drob & hakeem?

What about them? You seriously believe that Pippen was better than any of them in '92? Again, just a joke and a disgrace. Amazing how one player can be THIS overrated. :oldlol:

LMAO @ "what's your proof Barkley was better." Jeez... :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

This is where team sucess gets silly. King never played on a team any way near as complete as the teams Pippen played on. But what keeps Pippen out of the convon of All Time greats and puts his leadership in question are the many times his heart was at question early in his career, and his in a big game he sat down on his team because a TOp 1 or 2 coach thought the better play was to go to Kuckos than tho go to him.
COMPLETE? The bulls lost the greatest player ever and thus had a gaping hole at SG and their centers weren't exactly world beaters either. And everybody on the team even friggn jordan said he was a leader. Wha do you want from pippen? The standards that you're knocking pippen for not meeting have not been met by most people. Especially with only a year to do it.

[Niquesports]

COMPLETE? The bulls lost the greatest player ever and thus had a gaping hole at SG and their centers weren't exactly world beaters either. And everybody on the team even friggn jordan said he was a leader. Wha do you want from pippen? The standards that you're knocking pippen for not meeting have not been met by most people. Especially with only a year to do it.


I think you just dont want to accept what most unbias people feel which it that Pippen is at best a 3rd tier player. Which in thinking that the league has been going on for like 60 years no one is saying he isnt one of the Top 50 players of All Time no one is saying he isnt a HOFer but I really dont think he is any better than say Sam Jones, James Worthy, Kevin Mchale, he was just a really good Robin.

[97 bulls]

What about them? You seriously believe that Pippen was better than any of them in '92? Again, just a joke and a disgrace. Amazing how one player can be THIS overrated. :oldlol:

LMAO @ "what's your proof Barkley was better." Jeez... :oldlol:
There's alot of people siding with pippen. He's not being overrated. And i cant even say your underrating him You passed underrating and stopped at hating. Its clear that you have a disticnt hate for pippen. And why I don't know. Every time somebdy states something about pippen, they back it up with facts. I've never seen a guy dismiss so many facts in order to degrade a player. The funny thing is that you yourself stated that prime pippen with let's say mitch richmond in the place of jordan, but pippen still with pippen as the best plaayer would probably win an mvp and win a couple of championships. But yet he's a 3rd tier guy? Come on

[Niquesports]

There's alot of people siding with pippen. He's not being overrated. And i cant even say your underrating him You passed underrating and stopped at hating. Its clear that you have a disticnt hate for pippen. And why I don't know. Every time somebdy states something about pippen, they back it up with facts. I've never seen a guy dismiss so many facts in order to degrade a player. The funny thing is that you yourself stated that prime pippen with let's say mitch richmond in the place of jordan, but pippen still with pippen as the best plaayer would probably win an mvp and win a couple of championships. But yet he's a 3rd tier guy? Come on

Lets look at it Pippen fans boast hey without Jordan he lead them to 55 wins.
But lets look at that. That was a championship system,championship coach and championship support players. Lets not act like Pippen went to the Clippers and made them a contender. maybe he could have maybe he couldn't have made turned a weak team into a title team if he had a Robin but Toni Kuckos to let you tell it was a pretty good Robin much better than anything King,Dominique,even lebron with the cavs had

[32jazz]

Lets look at it Pippen fans boast hey without Jordan he lead them to 55 wins.
But lets look at that. That was a championship system,championship coach and championship support players. Lets not act like Pippen went to the Clippers and made them a contender. maybe he could have maybe he couldn't have made turned a weak team into a title team if he had a Robin but Toni Kuckos to let you tell it was a pretty good Robin much better than anything King,Dominique,even lebron with the cavs had

Yes lets look at that 94 Bulls team.

Kukoc was a shaky rookie who shot 42%fg & 27% 3pt & averaved 9ppg. :facepalm

By minutes played he was the 5th or 6th player(especially playoffs 9ppg) on the Bulls depth chart. KuKoc was more like Bat Girl than Robin.


If MJ had been replaced by a legitimate NBA SG you would have a point ,but he was replaced by a CBA journeyman they called up at the last minute.

Shows you how much INDIVIDUAL scoring is overrated.

[aau]

What about them? You seriously believe that Pippen was better than any of them in '92? Again, just a joke and a disgrace. Amazing how one player can be THIS overrated. :oldlol:

LMAO @ "what's your proof Barkley was better." Jeez... :oldlol:

you said their seasons were better than pippen's
really want to know why you think barkley's
1992 season was superior to pippen's

please . . . . with sugar on top

hakeem zero all league honors , not even 2ndT
barely lead his team to above .500 season
hakeem 21/12/2 no playoffs vs 21/8/7

drob for all his production , team only won 47 games
and missed the playoffs . . . is that great impact?

as for ewing , a 7ftr had a 45% PS vs 52% regular
bill cartwright's defense had him on lock , lok?
he had games of 14 , 15 and 16 vs the bulls
and what was it about ZERO 1st team L
honors that impressed you so much

c'mon lok

don't just spew bullshit

.

.

back it up

[Niquesports]

Yes lets look at that 94 Bulls team.

Kukoc was a shaky rookie who shot 42%fg & 27% 3pt & averaved 9ppg. :facepalm

By minutes played he was the 5th or 6th player(especially playoffs 9ppg) on the Bulls depth chart. KuKoc was more like Bat Girl than Robin.


If MJ had been replaced by a legitimate NBA SG you would have a point ,but he was replaced by a CBA journeyman they called up at the last minute.
Shows you how much INDIVIDUAL scoring is overrated.

Are you talking about the Kukos that in the most important game of the season that the maybe greatest coach of all time called a last shot play for him instead of Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Lets look at it Pippen fans boast hey without Jordan he lead them to 55 wins.
But lets look at that. That was a championship system,championship coach and championship support players. Lets not act like Pippen went to the Clippers and made them a contender. maybe he could have maybe he couldn't have made turned a weak team into a title team if he had a Robin but Toni Kuckos to let you tell it was a pretty good Robin much better than anything King,Dominique,even lebron with the cavs had
With me being a sports fan, im positive no team could loose their best player and do what the bulls did in 94 nobody. You think the lakers could loose magic for a whole season and still win 50 games? It ain't happening. Look at what clevelands doing with james being gone. Or how bout when david robinson went down in 98 or was it 97? Or how bout the celtics a (championship team) when they lost bird the whole season? They went 42 and 40 How bout when shaq left the lakers (another championship team) I think that team won 36 games. And they at least got odom, grant, and butler. Your gonna have to do better nique.

[32jazz]

Are you talking about the Kukos that in the most important game of the season that the maybe greatest coach of all time called a last shot play for him instead of Pippen.

Yeah the same Kukoc that Jackson only thought enough of to make him the 5th or 6th player in the postseason rotation.

Great shot ,but how the F**k does that make Kukoc(9ppg probably less against the Knicks) second fiddle(Robin) to Pippen?

Pippen had two better/more important All Star teammates that season in BJ & Grant , but Kukoc was his Robin.:rolleyes:


I thinkKukoc more Bat Girl than 'Robin'.

[32jazz]

With me being a sports fan, im positive no team could loose their best player and do what the bulls did in 94 nobody. You think the lakers could loose magic for a whole season and still win 50 games? It ain't happening. Look at what clevelands doing with james being gone. Or how bout when david robinson went down in 98 or was it 97? Or how bout the celtics a (championship team) when they lost bird the whole season? They went 42 and 40 How bout when shaq left the lakers (another championship team) I think that team won 36 games. And they at least got odom, grant, and butler. Your gonna have to do better nique.

And the players you mentioned were replaced with 'legitimate' NBA players at least & not a CBA journeyman like Pete Myers.

Sedale Threatt & Reggie Lewis(?) I believe replaced MAgic & Bird respectivley.

[97 bulls]

Are you talking about the Kukos that in the most important game of the season that the maybe greatest coach of all time called a last shot play for him instead of Pippen.
Oh come on, I love kukoc, but he wasn't ready to be a second guy on a team that was competeing for a playoff spot at that stage in his young career. Likebi said, you hold the bulls to such a high standard. Let me ask you a question. Why could james worthy at 32 yrs old not start over 23 yr old george lynch? Im positive pippen at 38 would've started over him if they were on the same team. And don't run behind injuries, cuz worthy played in all 82 games.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I can't believe you guys are still letting the OP moronically lead you guys on. This thread's entire agenda was just to downplay Pippen. Even with 90% of the replies stating Pippen is better with sound analysis and evidence, he still denies it and the only evidence / refute he has is to cite his "40 years of playing, watching" NBA evidence. It's a gimmick account and annoying and somehow it got this many pages, many of which I was apart of sadly.

Get out while you can.

[Niquesports]

With me being a sports fan, im positive no team could loose their best player and do what the bulls did in 94 nobody. You think the lakers could loose magic for a whole season and still win 50 games? It ain't happening. Look at what clevelands doing with james being gone. Or how bout when david robinson went down in 98 or was it 97? Or how bout the celtics a (championship team) when they lost bird the whole season? They went 42 and 40 How bout when shaq left the lakers (another championship team) I think that team won 36 games. And they at least got odom, grant, and butler. Your gonna have to do better nique.

I think unlike Worthy and many others Pippen has a body of work without Jordan and even that 55 win season his time with Portland,Houston his body of work without Jordan isnt a HOF work.So it leads me to believe he isnt any more than at best a 3rd tier player. Now if Worthy had played say 3 or 5 years without Magic and showed little I would say the same.

[97 bulls]

And the players you mentioned were replaced with 'legitimate' NBA players at least & not a CBA journeyman like Pete Myers.

Sedale Threatt & Reggie Lewis(?) I believe replaced MAgic & Bird respectivley.
Imma check. And I guarantee that the replacements for these greats were better than the pete friggn myers. This is a joke. nique, old school havnt come with one fact that would show that pippen couldn't over take king in an all nba list or show why pippen isn't better than worthy or show why pip is overrated. But I've seen all kinds of fscts that show his greatness.

[Niquesports]

Oh come on, I love kukoc, but he wasn't ready to be a second guy on a team that was competeing for a playoff spot at that stage in his young career. Likebi said, you hold the bulls to such a high standard. Let me ask you a question. Why could james worthy at 32 yrs old not start over 23 yr old george lynch? Im positive pippen at 38 would've started over him if they were on the same team. And don't run behind injuries, cuz worthy played in all 82 games.

So you say Kukoc wasnt ready yet PHIL JACKSON what 11 rings as a coach and 2 as a player in clutch time said lets go to Kukco instead of Pippen. As far as Why Worthy didnt start over Lynch I would have to look that up but was Lynch on a lakers championship team ?

[G.O.A.T]

Imma check. And I guarantee that the replacements for these greats were better than the pete friggn myers. This is a joke. nique, old school havnt come with one fact that would show that pippen couldn't over take king in an all nba list or show why pippen isn't better than worthy or show why pip is overrated. But I've seen all kinds of fscts that show his greatness.

One of these days Pete Myers is gonna come after you.

[32jazz]

Imma check. And I guarantee that the replacements for these greats were better than the pete friggn myers. This is a joke. nique, old school havnt come with one fact that would show that pippen couldn't over take king in an all nba list or show why pippen isn't better than worthy or show why pip is overrated. But I've seen all kinds of fscts that show his greatness.

I checked it & you are speaking of the 89 Celtics season which Bird basiaclly missed the entire season(played 6 games) & he was replaced by the young stud Reggie Lewis.

The Celtics preceded to fall from 57 wins(Ecfs) down to 42 wins & the 8th seed & 1st rd SWEEP.

The Lakers had finally gotten Magic a solid backup/combo guard in Sedale Threatt who had to take MAgic's place unfortunately.

The Lakers dropped from 58 wins and Finals loss to 43 wins & 1st rd dismissal after barely edging out the Rockets(42 wins) for the 8th seed late in the season.

And on & on with the palyers you mentiond above like david Robinson, Russel,etc...

[Niquesports]

I checked it & you are speaking of the 89 Celtics season which Bird basiaclly missed the entire season(played 6 games) & he was replaced by the young stud Reggie Lewis.

The Celtics preceded to fall from 57 wins(Ecfs) down to 42 wins & the 8th seed & 1st rd SWEEP.

The Lakers had finally gotten Magic a solid backup/combo guard in Sedale Threatt who had to take MAgic's place unfortunately.

The Lakers dropped from 58 wins and Finals loss to 43 wins & 1st rd dismissal after barely edging out the Rockets(42 wins) for the 8th seed late in the season.

And on & on with the palyers you mentiond above like david Robinson, Russel,etc...


Im kinda of lost on your point. Both the lakers w/o Magic and the Celtics w/o Bird were past the peek Pippen and the Bulls players were still in their prime

[97 bulls]

I can't believe you guys are still letting the OP moronically lead you guys on. This thread's entire agenda was just to downplay Pippen. Even with 90% of the replies stating Pippen is better with sound analysis and evidence, he still denies it and the only evidence / refute he has is to cite his "40 years of playing, watching" NBA evidence. It's a gimmick account and annoying and somehow it got this many pages, many of which I was apart of sadly.

Get out while you can.
You know kellog every time you post I just crack up. You'd be cool to hang around. "Get out while you can" lol. Just classic

[97 bulls]

One of these days Pete Myers is gonna come after you.
Lol I know I better stop. Ive never brought up myers without an insulting him.

[97 bulls]

Im kinda of lost on your point. Both the lakers w/o Magic and the Celtics w/o Bird were past the peek Pippen and the Bulls players were still in their prime
You need to check the celtics stats age doesn't tell the whole story. And the lakers flatout missed magic. Byron scott and worthy were really exposed whe they had to take over the team.

[G.O.A.T]

Lol I know I better stop. Ive never brought up myers without an insulting him.

Has anyone?

He was fated to become a punchline.

My friend, a fellow Pistons fan, had a Pete Myers jersey made for him and wore it to all Pistons/Bulls games.

[Niquesports]

You need to check the celtics stats age doesn't tell the whole story. And the lakers flatout missed magic. Byron scott and worthy were really exposed whe they had to take over the team.



I hope your not saying that the Celtics and Lakers were at the same point as the Bulls were when Jordan first left.

[Kellogs4toniee]

You know kellog every time you post I just crack up. You'd be cool to hang around. "Get out while you can" lol. Just classic


Haha thanks man. Repped!

[eliteballer]

The only thing I'll remember when the words Pippen and Worthy are put together is Worthy consistently destroying him in the post during the 91 Finals.

[Teanett]

I think unlike Worthy and many others Pippen has a body of work without Jordan and even that 55 win season his time with Portland,Houston his body of work without Jordan isnt a HOF work.So it leads me to believe he isnt any more than at best a 3rd tier player. Now if Worthy had played say 3 or 5 years without Magic and showed little I would say the same.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/Sl-hC_i19GI/AAAAAAAAYpo/hEofhVetkI0/s400/ToothlessPerson.jpg

[zay_24]

Pippen led the bulls without mike

[97 bulls]

I hope your not saying that the Celtics and Lakers were at the same point as the Bulls were when Jordan first left.
I don't look at age as much as I do results bro. And mchale parrish, ainge, and johnson the core players, all were putting up stats similar to any of their prime years. And worthy and scott weren't old or out of their prime any way you look at it

[Niquesports]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/Sl-hC_i19GI/AAAAAAAAYpo/hEofhVetkI0/s400/ToothlessPerson.jpg
man your Mother is ugly

[Niquesports]

I don't look at age as much as I do results bro. And mchale parrish, ainge, and johnson the core players, all were putting up stats similar to any of their prime years. And worthy and scott weren't old or out of their prime any way you look at it

We can agree to disagree on that but where they coming off a championship year ?

[Ne 1]

Pippen has a body of work without Jordan and even that 55 win season his time with Portland,Houston his body of work without Jordan isnt a HOF work.

And what about Jordan's body of work without Pippen? :oldlol:

[Niquesports]

And what about Jordan's body of work without Pippen? :oldlol:

would that also mean without Phil jackson ?

[Teanett]

Pippen has a body of work without Jordan and even that 55 win season his time with Portland,Houston his body of work without Jordan isnt a HOF work. So it leads me to believe he isnt any more than at best a 3rd tier player.

http://www.dasberlinblog.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/hundehaufen.jpg

[97 bulls]

We can agree to disagree on that but where they coming off a championship year ?
Oh don't start nique. Those guys won championships together. I've heard multiple people say that you nit pick. And its true. They meet all the requirements that you brought up, they won championships together, they played together for multiple years, and they still very effective players. You need to
move on to something else.

[lilojmayo]

clearly Scottie Pippen the most versatile player ever, Worthy was a scorer. Pippen could do it all, didn't have many weaknesses, except shaky free throw shooting

[Niquesports]

Oh don't start nique. Those guys won championships together. I've heard multiple people say that you nit pick. And its true. They meet all the requirements that you brought up, they won championships together, they played together for multiple years, and they still very effective players. You need to
move on to something else.


IT may be nit picking to you. But are you saying that at the time Magic left the game and when Bird was hurt the Lakers and Celtics were as close to there peak as the Bulls were to theres ?

[Da_Realist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McHale
"When I was healthy, I always felt I could score," McHale once told reporters. "When it went into what I called 'The torture chamber,' I knew it was in."[5]

By his seventh pro season, McHale had rehearsed and refined his low-post moves and had become one of the NBA's most dominant offensive forces, out-leaping, out-spinning and out-maneuvering defender after defender in his "torture chamber". McHale was never better than the 1986–1987 season, setting career highs in scoring (26.1) and rebounding (9.9). He also became the first player in NBA history to shoot sixty percent or better from the field (60.4%) and eighty percent or better from the free throw line (83.6%) in the same season. McHale was named to the All-NBA First Team, was named the NBA's best defensive player by the league's coaches, and finished fourth in the Most Valuable Player voting behind Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, and Larry Bird.

In nine games from February 23, 1987, through March 13, McHale played arguably the best stretch of basketball in his career. He averaged 30.7 points and 10 rebounds per game while shooting a staggering 71.7 percent from the floor. During this stretch McHale scored his season-high in points, 38 versus the Pistons on March 1.

In a win at Chicago on March 27, McHale broke the navicular bone in his right foot. He ignored doctors' advice that the injury could be career-threatening and continued to play. In the playoffs a hobbled McHale averaged 39 minutes per game and connected on 58 percent of his shots as Boston once again won the Eastern Conference title. Boston swept the Bulls in the first round for the second straight year and survived two seven-game series with the Bucks and Pistons. A tired and hurting Celtics team could not defend its championship, losing to the Lakers in six games in the NBA Finals.


If Bird had missed the 87 season, instead of the 89 season, and McHale didn't break a bone in his foot, maybe the Celtics would have won quite a few games that season??? DJ, Ainge, Parish, McHale playing at a high level...and maybe they pick up a good young player like a Kukoc, and a couple more pieces to fill out the roster. That team couldn't have won around 50 games and topped out in the Conference Semi-Finals?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Worthy
1988 saw the Lakers pull off an repeat championship, becoming the first team since the Boston Celtics in 1969 to do so. It was during the Finals matchup against the Detroit Pistons that Worthy cemented his reputation as Big Game James. By 1987–88 it was clear an aging Kareem Abdul-Jabbar had to pick his spots; it was Worthy, point guard Magic Johnson, and shooting guard Byron Scott that began to pick up the slack. Against the Pistons, Worthy more than picked up his share and provided 22 points per game 7.4 rebounds and 4.4 assists game in the series.[4] His 28 points and nine rebounds in Game 6 and triple double effort of 36 points, 16 rebounds, and 10 assists in Game 7 of the Finals earned him his first and only Most Valuable Player award.

The following season (1988–89), Kareem's last, saw the Lakers again make the NBA Finals in a rematch again the Detroit Pistons. This time, Magic Johnson and Byron Scott missed 3 games due to injuries and the Lakers were swept in four games. Worthy, however, was again in championship form and averaged 25.5 points per game in the Finals[5], including a playoff career-high scoring effort of 40 points in Game 4.

Although of lesser renown than teammates Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson, Worthy is regarded as a key contributor to the three NBA championships (1985, 1987, 1988) and the overall success of the Lakers' '80s basketball dynasty. After the Lakers lost the 1991 Finals to the Chicago Bulls, followed by the sudden retirement of Magic in November 1991, Worthy played for three more seasons. By this time, injuries and mileage caught up with "Big Game James": A high ankle injury during the 1991 playoffs and season-ending knee surgery in 1992 robbed Worthy of much of his quickness and leaping ability. After struggling with knee pain in the preseason of the 1994–95 season, Worthy announced his retirement in November 1994, after 12 seasons in the NBA.

Maybe a healthy Worthy a few years before a high ankle injury and season-ending knee surgery playing a full 82 game season would have helped the Lakers win a few more games? Maybe if Magic had retired after the 1987 championship? Playing hurt in 92, Worthy raised his numbers across the board from the previous year except for fg%. A healthy Worthy playing 82 games instead of just 54 would no doubt have done even better and maybe, just maybe would have helped the Lakers win more than 42 games. You think?

[Niquesports]

If Bird had missed the 87 season, instead of the 89 season, and McHale didn't break a bone in his foot, maybe the Celtics would have won quite a few games that season??? DJ, Ainge, Parish, McHale playing at a high level...and maybe they pick up a good young player like a Kukoc, and a couple more pieces to fill out the roster. That team couldn't have won around 50 games and topped out in the Conference Semi-Finals?




Maybe a healthy Worthy a few years before a high ankle injury and season-ending knee surgery playing a full 82 game season would have helped the Lakers win a few more games? Maybe if Magic had retired after the 1987 championship? Playing hurt in 92, Worthy raised his numbers across the board from the previous year except for fg%. A healthy Worthy playing 82 games instead of just 54 would no doubt have done even better and maybe, just maybe would have helped the Lakers win more than 42 games. You think?


:bowdown: Great Post.
Sometimes having a person pull up the facts to show things can end debates. I like to just have off the head talks, but on ish if it isn't media popular it didn't happen. Worthy played in the shadow of Magic and kareem and the whole Showtime mystic.But I never heard anyone call Pippen Big Game Pippen.

[32jazz]

If Bird had missed the 87 season, instead of the 89 season, and McHale didn't break a bone in his foot, maybe the Celtics would have won quite a few games that season??? DJ, Ainge, Parish, McHale playing at a high level...and maybe they pick up a good young player like a Kukoc, and a couple more pieces to fill out the roster. That team couldn't have won around 50 games and topped out in the Conference Semi-Finals?




Maybe a healthy Worthy a few years before a high ankle injury and season-ending knee surgery playing a full 82 game season would have helped the Lakers win a few more games? Maybe if Magic had retired after the 1987 championship? Playing hurt in 92, Worthy raised his numbers across the board from the previous year except for fg%. A healthy Worthy playing 82 games instead of just 54 would no doubt have done even better and maybe, just maybe would have helped the Lakers win more than 42 games. You think?
:rolleyes:

I know I know REALIST? It's much easier to deal in "what ifs" than what actually happened.

Maybe you you should get rid of da "REAlist' username since you obvioulsy are
more fascinatated with fantasy & what YOU imagine COULD happen than reality.








I can go on for days with nonsense 'what ifs' & 'should of, could of.........but I rather stick with what actually happened.

I bet YOU(nor many others) never imagined how good the Bulls would be with Pete 'friggin' Myers/Pippen so what makes your assumptions about the Lakers/Celtics accurate?

From David Robinson, Magic, Bird, Russell,Lebron,Wilt, etc... & other 'abrupt' retirements/departures the results are eerily the same. Except when MJ retired. That's fact.

[Niquesports]

:rolleyes:

I know I know REALIST? It's much easier to deal in "what ifs" than what actually happened.

Maybe you you should get rid of da "REAlist' username since you obvioulsy are
more fascinatated with fantasy & what YOU imagine COULD happen than reality.






I can go on for days with nonsense 'what ifs' & 'should of, could of.........but I rather stick with what actually happened.

I bet YOU(nor many others) never imagined how good the Bulls would be with Pete 'friggin' Myers/Pippen so what makes your assumptions about the Lakers/Celtics accurate?

From David Robinson, Magic, Bird, Russell,Lebron,Wilt, etc... & other 'abrupt' retirements/departures the results are eerily the same. Except when MJ retired. That's fact.
YOu would have a point but you fail to mention who replaced Magic and who replaced Bird and at what point were the other key players in there careers were they in the twilight or up and coming like Kukcos.But bottom line When Magic went down Pat turned to Worthy when Mike wasn't there Phil turned to Kukocs now thats fact.

[32jazz]

YOu would have a point but you fail to mention who replaced Magic and who replaced Bird and at what point were the other key players in there careers were they in the twilight or up and coming like Kukcos.But bottom line When Magic went down Pat turned to Worthy when Mike wasn't there Phil turned to Kukocs now thats fact.

You really are an idiot hyping up Kukoc(9ppg) when he was the 6th man in the Bulls rotation & three All stars (Pippen,Grant & Armstrong) ahead of him.
What are you foolishly basing Kukoc's 'Robin'(in your own words)role to? Phil designed a play for him to take a final shot in the playoffs?

Like Phil drew up for PAxson(it's on video) when MJ was playing or Steve Kerr.:confusedshrug:

What the hell does a single shot digrammed for the 6th man in the rotation have to do with anything?:oldlol: How the hell does that make KUKOC "Robin' or second fiddle on a team of 3 ALL STARS AHEAD OF HIM?

Worthy & Reggie Lewis are >>>>than Kukoc

Maybe you feel a need to hype up Kukoc jsut so you won't have to face the reality that MJ was replaced with Pete 'friggin' Myers & he played significant minutes(far more than Kukoc) in his place.

Pippen held that team together dude. PERIOD.

[Niquesports]

You really are an idiot hyping up Kukoc(9ppg) when he was the 6th man in the Bulls rotation & three All stars (Pippen,Grant & Armstrong) ahead of him.
What are you foolishly basing Kukoc's 'Robin'(in your own words)role to? Phil designed a play for him to take a final shot in the playoffs?

Like Phil drew up for PAxson(it's on video) when MJ was playing or Steve Kerr.:confusedshrug:

What the hell does a single shot digrammed for the 6th man in the rotation have to do with anything?:oldlol: How the hell does that make KUKOC "Robin' or second fiddle on a team of 3 ALL STARS AHEAD OF HIM?

Worthy & Reggie Lewis are >>>>than Kukoc

Maybe you feel a need to hype up Kukoc jsut so you won't have to face the reality that MJ was replaced with Pete 'friggin' Myers & he played significant minutes(far more than Kukoc) in his place.

Pippen held that team together dude. PERIOD.


OK lets say Jordan is a 10 and Magic is a 9.8
In the big game Worthy's game for 1 year out shinned Magic's Pippen never did that over Jordan.
In Magic's absence Worthy gave All Time great numbers
IN Jordan absence Pippen whinned cause Phil felt a Kukos gave the team a better chance of winning. The paxson play and the Kukocs play are different pason was the option Kukocs was the go to

[Da_Realist]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124270/index.htm

From March 19, 1981

[quote=]Even before the cast on his knee was removed, Johnson was already working indefatigably on his rehabilitation. He went home to Lansing over Thanksgiving and made two other trips there while away from the team. After their initial slump, the Lakers won five in a row, again lost five of eight, then went 17-7, ending up 28-17 for the 45 games they played without Magic. But it seemed that waiting for Magic was more important to the fans and the press than what the Lakers were doing without him, even though the Lakers had stayed close to Phoenix in second place in the Pacific Division.

"He's just one guy," Abdul-Jabbar would say. "He's special

[32jazz]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124270/index.htm

From March 19, 1981



28-17 without Magic (winning 62% of their games) after a championship season without replacing him with anybody.

--------------------------------

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125432/index.htm

From April 19, 1982



After a championship season, other coaches and players around the league said there is no significant dropoff with Bird either injured or coming off the bench.

Rod Thorn -- People felt that without Bird the Celtics wouldn't be the Celtics, but they proved they are.

Absolutely disingenuous BS when people take 10,20 or 30 game stretches to validate someones impact.:rolleyes: :oldlol:

We have opening day tip off to final game of the season to show Pippens/Pete 'friggin" Myers effect after MJ.

We have Full seasons of D Rob , Magic , Bird, Russell, Wilt,etc.... but you want to focus on a portion of the regular season.:facepalm

That's really a good way to obfuscate the matter.

Fail. You should change that username from 'realist'. Really.

[Alhazred]

Absolutely disingenuous BS when people take 10,20 or 30 game stretches to validate someones impact.:rolleyes: :oldlol:

We have opening day tip off to final game of the season to show Pippens/Pete 'friggin" Myers effect after MJ.

We have Full seasons of D Rob , Magic , Bird, Russell, Wilt,etc.... but you want to focus on a portion of the regular season.:facepalm

That's really a good way to obfuscate the matter.

Fail. You should change that username from 'realist'. Really.

The Celtics also won 48 games their first year after Bird's retirement, a mere three win drop from the previous season. Wilt's 76ers won 55 games their first season without him, despite also losing Luke Jackson and their coach Alex Hannum and only replacing them with Darrell Imhoff and Archie Clark.

By the way, that was a 45 game sample Realist posted of the Lakers playing without Magic. Chances are that even if he missed the full season, they probably would have won 50+ games. Those samples Da_Realist posted are probably far better indications of what Magic's and Bird's teams could do, considering the Celtics and Lakers were hardly in peak form in '89 and '92.

Also, the Bulls didn't just add Pete Myers in '94. They added 4 players who all played on the second three-peat team that year, and they were Kukoc, Kerr, Longley and Wennington. Kerr was a big improvement over Paxson and averaged twice as many points as Paxson did in '93, while also playing more games than '93 Paxson. Kukoc gave them added depth and Longley and Wennington helped replace an older Cartwright.

Also, good post, Realist. :cheers:

EDIT: And Nique, please drop it. Pippen was easily the better player, there's no need to continue this debate.

[Niquesports]

The Celtics also won 48 games their first year after Bird's retirement, a mere three win drop from the previous season. Wilt's 76ers won 55 games their first season without him, despite also losing Luke Jackson and their coach Alex Hannum and only replacing them with Darrell Imhoff and Archie Clark.

By the way, that was a 45 game sample Realist posted of the Lakers playing without Magic. Chances are that even if he missed the full season, they probably would have won 50+ games. Those samples Da_Realist posted are probably far better indications of what Magic's and Bird's teams could do, considering the Celtics and Lakers were hardly in peak form in '89 and '92.

Also, the Bulls didn't just add Pete Myers in '94. They added 4 players who all played on the second three-peat team that year, and they were Kukoc, Kerr, Longley and Wennington. Kerr was a big improvement over Paxson and averaged twice as many points as Paxson did in '93, while also playing more games than '93 Paxson. Kukoc gave them added depth and Longley and Wennington helped replace an older Cartwright.

Also, good post, Realist. :cheers:

EDIT: And Nique, please drop it. Pippen was easily the better player, there's no need to continue this debate.
Easily ??????
Was he ver the clear best player on a finals team not 1 year but 2 like Worthy.

[Alhazred]

Easily ??????
Was he ver the clear best player on a finals team not 1 year but 2 like Worthy.

I don't know if Worthy was "clearly the best player" in the '88 Finals, he certainly was in Game 7, but I think Magic had must as much if not far more impact throughout the series than Worthy did.

Pippen was a better rebounder, passer and could score nearly just as well as Worthy(plus he could shoot from the three-point line). Pippen was also a much, much better defender than Worthy.

Even when it comes to awards and hardware, Pippen has more rings, more MVP votes, the same amount of All-Star game appearances(plus an All-Star Game MVP), more All-NBA selections, more All-Defensive selections, and is just that much better overall than Worthy.

The obvious choice is Pippen, by a landslide.

[97 bulls]

The Celtics also won 48 games their first year after Bird's retirement, a mere three win drop from the previous season. Wilt's 76ers won 55 games their first season without him, despite also losing Luke Jackson and their coach Alex Hannum and only replacing them with Darrell Imhoff and Archie Clark.

By the way, that was a 45 game sample Realist posted of the Lakers playing without Magic. Chances are that even if he missed the full season, they probably would have won 50+ games. Those samples Da_Realist posted are probably far better indications of what Magic's and Bird's teams could do, considering the Celtics and Lakers were hardly in peak form in '89 and '92.

Also, the Bulls didn't just add Pete Myers in '94. They added 4 players who all played on the second three-peat team that year, and they were Kukoc, Kerr, Longley and Wennington. Kerr was a big improvement over Paxson and averaged twice as many points as Paxson did in '93, while also playing more games than '93 Paxson. Kukoc gave them added depth and Longley and Wennington helped replace an older Cartwright.

Also, good post, Realist. :cheers:

EDIT: And Nique, please drop it. Pippen was easily the better player, there's no need to continue this debate.
The fact is that none of the teams you mentioned were nearly as succesful as the bulls without jordan. Even the celtics when bird retired replaced him with xavier mcdaniel. I honestly can't respond to wilts teams cuz I never saw them play

[97 bulls]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124270/index.htm

From March 19, 1981



28-17 without Magic (winning 62% of their games) after a championship season without replacing him with anybody.

--------------------------------

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125432/index.htm

From April 19, 1982



After a championship season, other coaches and players around the league said there is no significant dropoff with Bird either injured or coming off the bench.

Rod Thorn -- People felt that without Bird the Celtics wouldn't be the Celtics, but they proved they are.
I don't think taking what the celtics did for a few games is a strong indicator that they could survive without bird. But that 45 game stretch is impressive. But not anywhere near as impressive as what pippen did in 94.

I know what your doing real. You're trying to defend jordan cuz its obvious that his teams were more succesful without him as opposed to the other greats. Now im as big a jordan fan as you and oldschool. But im more of a bulls fan. And what the bulls were able to accomplish during the time frame of 94 to 98 was better than any other dynasty. And a testament to their greatness as opposed to knocking jordan. Which it doesn't. What jordan was able to do stands on its own merit. And nobody and can poke a whole in it without me or you or oldschool or anybody else setting them straight.

[Niquesports]

I don't think taking what the celtics did for a few games is a strong indicator that they could survive without bird. But that 45 game stretch is impressive. But not anywhere near as impressive as what pippen did in 94.

I know what your doing real. You're trying to defend jordan cuz its obvious that his teams were more succesful without him as opposed to the other greats. Now im as big a jordan fan as you and oldschool. But im more of a bulls fan. And what the bulls were able to accomplish during the time frame of 94 to 98 was better than any other dynasty. And a testament to their greatness as opposed to knocking jordan. Which it doesn't. What jordan was able to do stands on its own merit. And nobody and can poke a whole in it without me or you or oldschool or anybody else setting them straight.

I think Pippen was able to show he could lead a good team. Too often when comparing players people take it as an insult if you say my player was better than your player. ITs just fun basketball talk trying to say was better between 2 players with different skills. So I respect you Bulls others just wanna say a person is dumb or an idiot or worst just because of different opinions. I have aalways wondered if playing for the lakers helped or hurt Worthy's legacy because he was a great talent. How much better would people look at him if he didnt play in the shawdow of Magic kareem and the Showtime mystic ? Pippen was a great player how much did the MJ Bulls mystic help him ? Pippens numbers are no bedtter than Big Game James

[Alhazred]

The fact is that none of the teams you mentioned were nearly as succesful as the bulls without jordan.

No, but then Bird and Magic never left their teams in the middle of their primes, either, so its not like we have a full season's worth of samples to judge their teammates' best abilities. The only ones we have are from '89 and '91, when their teams were just a shell of their former selves.


Even the celtics when bird retired replaced him with xavier mcdaniel.

Yes, and the Bulls had multiple additions after Jordan retired, as well.


I honestly can't respond to wilts teams cuz I never saw them play

Well, here's what happened. Wilt was traded for three players. They were Archie Clark, an All-Star guard who averaged 13/4/3 his first year in Philly, Darrell Imhoff, a decent but not spectacular center and Jerry Chambers who didn't even play. They also lost Luke Jackson, one of their best players and best center after only 26 games into the season and Alex Hannum, their coach from the previous season. Despite all of that, they tied for the second best record in the league with the Lakers. As good as the Bulls were in '94, I don't think I could have seen them winning 55 games if they had lost Grant after 26 games and replaced Phil Jackson with a new coach.

[97 bulls]

And for the record, this is what the core players of the celtics, the name players did in 89 the year that they managed to win only 42 games. And what they did in 86, which was that teams best year

Kevin Mchale
86 21ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 57% shooting
89 23ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 55% shooting

Robert Parrish
86 16ppg, 10rbds, 2assts, 55% shooting
89 19ppg, 12rbds, 2assts, 57% shooting

Dennis Johnson
86 16ppg, 3rbds, 6assts, 45% shooting
89 10ppg, 3rbds, 7assts, 43% shooting

And they replaced bird with reggie lewis who avg 19ppg, 5rbds, 3assts 49% shooting

As far as the lakers, I didn't feel like writing it down, but know that they all (and when I say all, I mean worthy, scott, and green) were either 30 or 29. And for the mos part put up similar stats to any of their other years. And magic was replaced with sedale threat who was a very good PG and he chipped in 15 ppg and 7 assists on 49% shooting.
Compare that to jordan/myers

Jordan 32ppg, 7rbds, 6assts 50% shooting
Myers 8ppg, 2rbds, 3assts 45% shooting

Saying that the celtics were old or the lakers is either irrelevant in the celtics case cuz they put up better numbers than they did in 86. But let me guess, they were in wheel chairs and crutches in 89. And a flat out untruth in the lakers case. As I stated earlier, all of the remaing lakers were still in their late 20s or 30 yrs old in 93 when they won 39 games.

[Niquesports]

And for the record, this is what the core players of the celtics, the name players did in 89 the year that they managed to win only 42 games. And what they did in 86, which was that teams best year

Kevin Mchale
86 21ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 57% shooting
89 23ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 55% shooting

Robert Parrish
86 16ppg, 10rbds, 2assts, 55% shooting
89 19ppg, 12rbds, 2assts, 57% shooting

Dennis Johnson
86 16ppg, 3rbds, 6assts, 45% shooting
89 10ppg, 3rbds, 7assts, 43% shooting

And they replaced bird with reggie lewis who avg 19ppg, 5rbds, 3assts 49% shooting

As far as the lakers, I didn't feel like writing it down, but know that they all (and when I say all, I mean worthy, scott, and green) were either 30 or 29. And for the mos part put up similar stats to any of their other years. And magic was replaced with sedale threat who was a very good PG and he chipped in 15 ppg and 7 assists on 49% shooting.
Compare that to jordan/myers

Jordan 32ppg, 7rbds, 6assts 50% shooting
Myers 8ppg, 2rbds, 3assts 45% shooting

Saying that the celtics were old or the lakers is either irrelevant in the celtics case cuz they put up better numbers than they did in 86. But let me guess, they were in wheel chairs and crutches in 89. And a flat out untruth in the lakers case. As I stated earlier, all of the remaing lakers were still in their late 20s or 30 yrs old in 93 when they won 39 games.


Be careful Bulls maybe this could show how much more of a impact Magic and Bird had over Jordan. Emmmmmmmmmm.........

[97 bulls]

No, but then Bird and Magic never left their teams in the middle of their primes, either, so its not like we have a full season's worth of samples to judge their teammates' best abilities. The only ones we have are from '89 and '91, when their teams were just a shell of their former selves.



Yes, and the Bulls had multiple additions after Jordan retired, as well.



Well, here's what happened. Wilt was traded for three players. They were Archie Clark, an All-Star guard who averaged 13/4/3 his first year in Philly, Darrell Imhoff, a decent but not spectacular center and Jerry Chambers who didn't even play. They also lost Luke Jackson, one of their best players and best center after only 26 games into the season and Alex Hannum, their coach from the previous season. Despite all of that, they tied for the second best record in the league with the Lakers. As good as the Bulls were in '94, I don't think I could have seen them winning 55 games if they had lost Grant after 26 games and replaced Phil Jackson with a new coach.
You see, this is where we loose the idea of having a civil dialogue and turn to just trying to win an argument. So what if the celtics were older than they were in 86. They still had a championship pedigree, and put up better numbers than they did during their championship runs. There's an exception to every rule. The celtics are an exception. Not to mention that when they got bird back the next year, they won 52 games.

And the lakers were in no way shape or form old. And they won 57 games in 91. Then they unfortunately loose magic and proceed to win not even 40? Come on.

[97 bulls]

Be careful Bulls maybe this could show how much more of a impact Magic and Bird had over Jordan. Emmmmmmmmmm.........
Lol, jordan took the bulls from a damn good team capable of winning 60 games to a record setting team. He brought impact. That team as a whole was just a beast. There's a reason why you can remove jordan and they still win 55, or at full strength, win 72. Then loose rodman, kukoc, longley, and not have the best big man the bulls championship teams ever had in brian williams for all but 9 games and still win 69. Then, the following year, loose pippen for 40 games and still win 62. They had great players. No team could withstand those kind of hits year in and out, and still do what they did.

[Niquesports]

Lol, jordan took the bulls from a damn good team capable of winning 60 games to a record setting team. He brought impact. That team as a whole was just a beast. There's a reason why you can remove jordan and they still win 55, or at full strength, win 72. Then loose rodman, kukoc, longley, and not have the best big man the bulls championship teams ever had in brian williams for all but 9 games and still win 69. Then, the following year, loose pippen for 40 games and still win 62. They had great players. No team could withstand those kind of hits year in and out, and still do what they did.
I just wonder if in one game who you got the very best Showtime, the very best Bird Celtics or The Jordan Bulls ?

[Alhazred]

And for the record, this is what the core players of the celtics, the name players did in 89 the year that they managed to win only 42 games. And what they did in 86, which was that teams best year

Kevin Mchale
86 21ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 57% shooting
89 23ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 55% shooting

Robert Parrish
86 16ppg, 10rbds, 2assts, 55% shooting
89 19ppg, 12rbds, 2assts, 57% shooting

Dennis Johnson
86 16ppg, 3rbds, 6assts, 45% shooting
89 10ppg, 3rbds, 7assts, 43% shooting

And they replaced bird with reggie lewis who avg 19ppg, 5rbds, 3assts 49% shooting

You're not taking into account that the Celtics no longer had their bench from '86 and that Dennis Johnson wasn't nearly as good as he once was, either. The Celtics also got rid of Danny Ainge mid-season and replaced K.C. Jones that same year.


As far as the lakers, I didn't feel like writing it down, but know that they all (and when I say all, I mean worthy, scott, and green) were either 30 or 29. And for the mos part put up similar stats to any of their other years. And magic was replaced with sedale threat who was a very good PG and he chipped in 15 ppg and 7 assists on 49% shooting.
Compare that to jordan/myers

Jordan 32ppg, 7rbds, 6assts 50% shooting
Myers 8ppg, 2rbds, 3assts 45% shooting

I didn't mean they were over the hill, I meant that the '91 Lakers weren't as good as the Lakers were back in the 80s when they still had Kareem.


Saying that the celtics were old or the lakers is either irrelevant in the celtics case cuz they put up better numbers than they did in 86. But let me guess, they were in wheel chairs and crutches in 89. And a flat out untruth in the lakers case. As I stated earlier, all of the remaing lakers were still in their late 20s or 30 yrs old in 93 when they won 39 games.

In '89, Dennis Johnson was 34, Robert Parish was 35 and McHale was 31, plus he suffered a broken foot injury in '87 that affected his career. The Lakers in '92 had no Kareem and had multiple injuries. Worthy missed 28 games, Sam Perkins missed 19 games and Vlade Divac missed 46 games. The '94 Bulls on the other hand had a relatively healthy core with Pippen, Grant and Armstrong all in their late twenties and a deeper bench from the previous season. The '94 Bulls' situation is hardly comparable to the '89 Celtics and '92 Lakers.


You see, this is where we loose the idea of having a civil dialogue and turn to just trying to win an argument. So what if the celtics were older than they were in 86. They still had a championship pedigree, and put up better numbers than they did during their championship runs. There's an exception to every rule. The celtics are an exception. Not to mention that when they got bird back the next year, they won 52 games.

Parish and McHale put up a few more points, but Johnson's game was deteriorating. Even with Bird back the next season, his number's only got worse. Johnson simply wasn't the same player from previous years. And again, they also got rid of Ainge and their coach K.C. Jones that same season.

Also, we have two instances of where the Celtics were still able to be competitive without Bird, in '82 and '92. Why only focus on the '89 season?


And the lakers were in no way shape or form old. And they won 57 games in 91. Then they unfortunately loose magic and proceed to win not even 40? Come on.

Read above where I mention their frontcourt's injuries.

[1987_Lakers]

And for the record, this is what the core players of the celtics, the name players did in 89 the year that they managed to win only 42 games. And what they did in 86, which was that teams best year

Kevin Mchale
86 21ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 57% shooting
89 23ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 55% shooting

Robert Parrish
86 16ppg, 10rbds, 2assts, 55% shooting
89 19ppg, 12rbds, 2assts, 57% shooting

Dennis Johnson
86 16ppg, 3rbds, 6assts, 45% shooting
89 10ppg, 3rbds, 7assts, 43% shooting

And they replaced bird with reggie lewis who avg 19ppg, 5rbds, 3assts 49% shooting

Come on now. McHale although similar statistics in '86 & '89 was not the same player. By 1989 McHale lost alot of the quickness he had prior to his injury in '87. DJ had declined big time by '89, he was on his last legs, he wasn't the same offensive or defensive player he was in '86. Ainge, who averaged 15 PPG on 55 FG% in the '86 postseason was traded mid-way threw the '89 season. And of course Walton who won 6MOY on the Celtics in '86 was long gone.

[Da_Realist]

And for the record, this is what the core players of the celtics, the name players did in 89 the year that they managed to win only 42 games. And what they did in 86, which was that teams best year

Kevin Mchale
86 21ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 57% shooting
89 23ppg, 8rbds, 3assts, 55% shooting

Robert Parrish
86 16ppg, 10rbds, 2assts, 55% shooting
89 19ppg, 12rbds, 2assts, 57% shooting

Dennis Johnson
86 16ppg, 3rbds, 6assts, 45% shooting
89 10ppg, 3rbds, 7assts, 43% shooting

And they replaced bird with reggie lewis who avg 19ppg, 5rbds, 3assts 49% shooting

As far as the lakers, I didn't feel like writing it down, but know that they all (and when I say all, I mean worthy, scott, and green) were either 30 or 29. And for the mos part put up similar stats to any of their other years. And magic was replaced with sedale threat who was a very good PG and he chipped in 15 ppg and 7 assists on 49% shooting.
Compare that to jordan/myers

Jordan 32ppg, 7rbds, 6assts 50% shooting
Myers 8ppg, 2rbds, 3assts 45% shooting

Saying that the celtics were old or the lakers is either irrelevant in the celtics case cuz they put up better numbers than they did in 86. But let me guess, they were in wheel chairs and crutches in 89. And a flat out untruth in the lakers case. As I stated earlier, all of the remaing lakers were still in their late 20s or 30 yrs old in 93 when they won 39 games.

I wasn't going to say anything, but... stats aren't everything. McHale, Parish and Dennis Johnson would have put up better numbers if they had to in 86. Just cause someone averages 20 points doesn't mean they can only average 20 points. They could average more if the situation calls for it and they are good enough. Can't go by stats. Didn't Pippen raise his numbers in 94 when Jordan wasn't there? Why couldn't other players do it?

Jordan's numbers decreased across the board from 90 to 91. Does that mean he was a worse player? No... His team was better and he didn't need to post the numbers he did in 90.

[97 bulls]

You're not taking into account that the Celtics no longer had their bench from '86 and that Dennis Johnson wasn't nearly as good as he once was, either. The Celtics also got rid of Danny Ainge mid-season and replaced K.C. Jones that same year.



I didn't mean they were over the hill, I meant that the '91 Lakers weren't as good as the Lakers were back in the 80s when they still had Kareem.



In '89, Dennis Johnson was 34, Robert Parish was 35 and McHale was 31, plus he suffered a broken foot injury in '87 that affected his career. The Lakers in '92 had no Kareem and had multiple injuries. Worthy missed 28 games, Sam Perkins missed 19 games and Vlade Divac missed 46 games. The '94 Bulls on the other hand had a relatively healthy core with Pippen, Grant and Armstrong all in their late twenties and a deeper bench from the previous season. The '94 Bulls' situation is hardly comparable to the '89 Celtics and '92 Lakers.



Parish and McHale put up a few more points, but Johnson's game was deteriorating. Even with Bird back the next season, his number's only got worse. Johnson simply wasn't the same player from previous years. And again, they also got rid of Ainge and their coach K.C. Jones that same season.

Also, we have two instances of where the Celtics were still able to be competitive without Bird, in '82 and '92. Why only focus on the '89 season?



Read above where I mention their frontcourt's injuries.
The celtics bench? Come on every year the bench changes a little. That's why I only listed the "core players". I think if we compare benches, there's not that much difference. And danny ainge isn't gonna get them an extra 8 wins. Or kc jones. Hell they won 52 when bird came back. Ill check 82 and 92 and get back to you.

And im not arguing as to who was better between the lakers in any year. Nique said that the bulls only won 55 games cuz of their championship pedigree. All i did was site examples of other teams that won championships or made it to the championship and what they did when the best player on the team left. And even if the lakers were at full strength, they're at best a 500 team.

And please stop using lame excuses. Injuries that happened to mchale two years before the time in question and he puts up better numbers? Come on Al, your better than this. And parrish was old by normal standards. But like I said earlier, I look at results. I don't care if he was 57 years old. He put up better numbers than in 86. Likeni said, your better than this

[97 bulls]

I wasn't going to say anything, but... stats aren't everything. McHale, Parish and Dennis Johnson would have put up better numbers if they had to in 86. Just cause someone averages 20 points doesn't mean they can only average 20 points. They could average more if the situation calls for it and they are good enough. Can't go by stats. Didn't Pippen raise his numbers in 94 when Jordan wasn't there? Why couldn't other players do it?

Jordan's numbers decreased across the board from 90 to 91. Does that mean he was a worse player? No... His team was better and he didn't need to post the numbers he did in 90.
Ok so what's your point? I wholeheartedly agree with you. And mchale and parrish put up better numbers. I only showed the stats cuz im hearing sorry arguments like mchale was injured 2 years prior. The fact is that they were producing the same as they were in their so called "prime". But johnson definately showed his age though. The fact is that the celtics were a 500 team without bird, and a 52 win team with him plaing the following year.

[97 bulls]

Come on now. McHale although similar statistics in '86 & '89 was not the same player. By 1989 McHale lost alot of the quickness he had prior to his injury in '87. DJ had declined big time by '89, he was on his last legs, he wasn't the same offensive or defensive player he was in '86. Ainge, who averaged 15 PPG on 55 FG% in the '86 postseason was traded mid-way threw the '89 season. And of course Walton who won 6MOY on the Celtics in '86 was long gone.
I agree about johnson. But like I said earlier, I don't care about a guys age. And quickness was never in mchales arsenal. And he was only 31. And even if they had johnson, they ain't winning 50 games without bird.

[Da_Realist]

Ok so what's your point? I wholeheartedly agree with you. And mchale and parrish put up better numbers. I only showed the stats cuz im hearing sorry arguments like mchale was injured 2 years prior. The fact is that they were producing the same as they were in their so called "prime". But johnson definately showed his age though. The fact is that the celtics were a 500 team without bird, and a 52 win team with him plaing the following year.

You don't understand. If Mchale and co. are putting up numbers but only operating at 60%, then if Bird gets injured there is room for Mchale and co to take over his load. But if they are putting up the same numbers and are operating at 95%, then if Bird is injured or retired, there is no room to grow. Bird's production is totally lost. That's why you can't look at the stats and say one way or the other.

That's why it's important to look at the team when they lose a star. Was McHale and co. the same players in 89 as they were in 82 or 86? No. They were past their prime. McHale was never the same after his foot injury no matter what the stat sheet says. What we do know is what happened in 82 when Bird was injured and missed a few games (and played limited minutes even when he played). We saw McHale step up like he couldn't in 89. League sources said they saw no drop off with Bird out (or limited). That happened just like Pippen's 94 happened. And this is McHale in year 2 AND he only started 33 games that season.

[97 bulls]

Hey Al, I checked and I don't see a time in birds early career in which he missed a significant amount of time. Now I know he didn't play much in 91 I believe It was, but he did play. I only looked at 89 cuz bird missed the whole season. I mean im sure that there's been multiple times when a team looses their star for a decent amount of time and rally around each other and take an us against the world mentality. But rarely has it been done for a whole season. Id almost venture to say never. Other than 94

[ILLsmak]

Pippen was annoying, but he's a baller. He's just as much of a baller as MJ, he just played a different role. If you think of a positional prototypes, there are few players better than Pippen at the SF.

It could be argued if you wanted to say which one you wanted to be your number 1 option... but in terms of playing SF correctly and winning while doing it, it's gotta be Pippen.


Say it with me: IT'S NOT ABOUT STATS.

-Smak

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen was annoying, but he's a baller. He's just as much of a baller as MJ, he just played a different role.

My god what a joke. :oldlol: How overrated can one player become? Stay tuned to find out...

What's next? Pippen >= KAJ? Pippen >= Wilt? We've already heard Pippen >= Magic.

[97 bulls]

My god what a joke. :oldlol: How overrated can one player become? Stay tuned to find out...

What's next? Pippen >= KAJ? Pippen >= Wilt? We've already heard Pippen >= Magic.
Who said pippen was a good or better than magic? I remember someone saying that pippen was as good an all-around player as magic but that's not saying he's better.

[magnax1]

What is worthy better at then Pippen? Scoring, obviously, but other then that I mean. He's probably not more athletic, definitely a worse defender, passer, and rebounder. I don't get why people think Worthy is such a great player. He's a 20 ppg scorer, an efficient and smart one, but none the less, 20 ppg scorers are a dime a dozen in the NBA.

[Niquesports]

I agree about johnson. But like I said earlier, I don't care about a guys age. And quickness was never in mchales arsenal. And he was only 31. And even if they had johnson, they ain't winning 50 games without bird.
I don't think you are getting the idea of what people are saying. At the point in time that Bird and Magic didnt play the team was on it end peek. When Jordan first left the Bulls the team was stiil at its peek. If Magic leaves in 88' I think the lakers are still a 50 or more win team in 91' no just another playoff team and with Worthy hurt maybe a .500 team.

[Niquesports]

What is worthy better at then Pippen? Scoring, obviously, but other then that I mean. He's probably not more athletic, definitely a worse defender, passer, and rebounder. I don't get why people think Worthy is such a great player. He's a 20 ppg scorer, an efficient and smart one, but none the less, 20 ppg scorers are a dime a dozen in the NBA.

Sometimes it easy to see if a person has seen a player play.
You state Worthy is the better scorer doesnt the team that scores the most win ?
You say he's probably not as athletic ?
at the time Worthy was probably the most athletic 6'9 player in the league Pippen wasn't the most athletic 6'6 player in the league.
Worst defender ? Overall yes but I would take Worthy defending Mchael or any other PF over Pippen on the block.
maybe the reason you dont get why people think Worthy was a Great player is because you didn't see him play.What Worthy did in the finals to win his MVp and against the Pistons with Magic and Scott out players like that aren't a dime a dozen.

[Niquesports]

Pippen was annoying, but he's a baller. He's just as much of a baller as MJ, he just played a different role. If you think of a positional prototypes, there are few players better than Pippen at the SF.

It could be argued if you wanted to say which one you wanted to be your number 1 option... but in terms of playing SF correctly and winning while doing it, it's gotta be Pippen.


Say it with me: IT'S NOT ABOUT STATS.

-Smak

Let me see SF that would have done as good or better in Pippen's role

Grant Hill
T Mac
now thats just the players in that era. The list would be longer if your talking all time.

[Lebron23]

James Worthy numbers are better than Pippen because he played in the fast pace 1980's. The ppg's averages of all NBA teams went down in the 1990's while most teams in the 1980's averaged 113 to 115 points per game.

Pippen was also the better all around NBA player because he's an elite defensive player, and also a 20/7/7 type of player during his prime. (1990 to 1998)

And James worthy numbers regressed after he lost his hall of fame teammates while Pippen became a top 3 NBA player in 1994, and top 7 player in 1995.

[SHAQisGOAT]

James Worthy numbers are better than Pippen because he played in the fast pace 1980's. The ppg's averages of all NBA teams went down in the 1990's while most teams in the 1980's averaged 113 to 115 points per game.

Pippen was also the better all around NBA player because he's an elite defensive player, and also a 20/7/7 type of player during his prime. (1990 to 1998)

And James worthy numbers regressed after he lost his hall of fame teammates while Pippen became a top 3 NBA player in 1994, and top 7 player in 1995.

Please stop. That's all pretty subjective, you're making no argument out of it.
Riddle me this: Why through the 70's into the 80's the pace was decreasing yet fg% increasing and even points sometimes?
Worthy was taking as many shots as he could at slower pace. And let's not act like they weren't even in the league at the same time, at some point, so..
I'm not even sure why Worthy's numbers seem better than Pip though.

Now you're just looking at stats without knowing half of the story. Worthy's numbers really regressed because he had an ankle injury during the 1991 playoffs and then knee surgery later on, was never the same again.
With this I'm not saying that playing with the GOAT playmaker doesn't help, because it helped him a lot (can say similar stuff for Magic though because Worthy was big on the break and a great finisher).

With that said, looking at everything I rank Pippen higher all-time, and as far as peaks, Scottie was a better defensive player, playmaker and rebounder (not that Worthy wasn't good at those things), James was definitely the better scorer, clutcher and could take over games in a way that Pippen couldn't.. So tough choice but I still go with Pip.

[Kovach]

James Worthy numbers are better than Pippen because he played in the fast pace 1980's.
He played next to 3 20 ppg players. Try harder.

[Lebron23]

Please stop. That's all pretty subjective, you're making no argument out of it.
Riddle me this: Why through the 70's into the 80's the pace was decreasing yet fg% increasing and even points sometimes?
Worthy was taking as many shots as he could at slower pace. And let's not act like they weren't even in the league at the same time, at some point, so..
I'm not even sure why Worthy's numbers seem better than Pip though.

Now you're just looking at stats without knowing half of the story. Worthy's numbers really regressed because he had an ankle injury during the 1991 playoffs and then knee surgery later on, was never the same again.
With this I'm not saying that playing with the GOAT playmaker doesn't help, because it helped him a lot (can say similar stuff for Magic though because Worthy was big on the break and a great finisher).

With that said, looking at everything I rank Pippen higher all-time, and as far as peaks, Scottie was a better defensive player, playmaker and rebounder (not that Worthy wasn't good at those things), James was definitely the better scorer, clutcher and could take over games in a way that Pippen couldn't.. So tough choice but I still go with Pip.

Thanks for the information.

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen. Easy

[bizil]

Two different kinds of SF's. Pip was a point forward and really redefined the SF position. Dr. J kind of size and athletic ability mixed with Hondo's epic all around game at the SF. Worthy was a SF-PF who was really a Batman level kind of scorer, but he played on stacked ass teams full of Batman or very good scorers. U are talking at different times Kareem, Magic, Wilkes, McAdoo, Scott, Nixon, etc. So Worthy never had to average 26 a night for the Lakers to win. But I do concede, I don't think Worthy was quite on the level of Bird, Nique, Bernard King, English, or Dantley in terms of scoring . I would still say he was still Batman quality level though in terms of scoring. Because he was still clutch as hell and was unstoppable with his size, athletic ability, and craftiness. And in transition, one of the five-seven best SF finishers ever in my book. He's up there with Bron, Nique, and Dr.J.

In terms of who I would take, I would narrowly say Pippen. I think Worthy was a better scorer, but Pip was a damn good scorer himself. And in the all around sense, only Bron or possibly Hondo has the edge at SF all time. If Worthy was a Nique or King level scorer, I would take him over Pippen. Because frankly I would take Nique or Bernard King over Pippen.

[Xiao Yao You]

Pippen. Both highly overrated.

[JohnFreeman]

Worthy played with Magic and Jabbar

[MichaelCorleone]

Scottie Pippen and it's not even remotely close.