Who did MJ actually beat?

[97 bulls]

90's

Jordan's comp....

Ewing Knicks
Malone + Stockton Jazz
Clyde's Blazers
Barkley + KJ Suns
Payton + Kemp's Sonics

Now could any of these teams win rings in the 80's against...

Bad Boy Detroit Pistons
Showtime Lakers
Malone and Dr. J Sixers
Larry Legend's Celtics


I don't think so.

IMO and we will never know...Jordan's Bulls could probably take 1 or 2 titles in this era at most.

And the four 80's teams would all rack up 5 to 6 titles in the 90's.

Now somebody please argue this.....this is all we have been pointing out.
If you did not grow up watching both decades...I suggest you STFU.
At full strength none of those teams are beating the 80s championship teams. But im sure they couldve beat the rockets and the early sixers. And im sure none of the loosing teams arent beating the bulls either. So what's the point?

[crisoner]

At full strength none of those teams are beating the 80s championship teams. But im sure they couldve beat the rockets and the early sixers. And im sure none of the loosing teams arent beating the bulls either. So what's the point?

Those 4 80's teams competed with each other hence the 80's were tougher.
Light at the end of the tunnel now?

[Niquesports]

Say what? So your saying that the 800lbs gorilla (converse) signs all the biggest stars of its time, but since nike picked up only jordan, that's why they got so big? Cuz they only got 1 superstar? Come on. That should tell you all you need to know. Converse made commercials for their stars. Alot in fact. Jordan was just bigger than those guys. And this was even before he started winning. And dr J had commercials too.

Gatorade moved from being a sports drink to being an everyday drink.

And alot of people didn't even have cable til the mid 90s. ESPN started in the late 80s I believe. These companies saw how big jordan was and jumped on.

By the way, im 36. And I remeber I would tune in to ESPN solely to watch the jordan highlights. And I don't rememeber everything. But I remember that bird and magic had endorsements and were on magazine covers, commerials, billboards etc, as was jordan. Jordan was just a bigger name.
Let me first say Im glad your in your early 30's I have even more respect for you.You love the game. First off Nike also had a guy name Geoge Gevin with one of the best posters ever him sitting on several blocks of Ice. By the 90's Nike was even or had passed Converse.

Can you remind me of the Dr J comercials in 75 ?


As far as Gatorade just to help you was more than just a basketball drink. IT got its fame from the Flordia Gators and was popular in every sport.

Im 10 years older than you the change of media from the 70's to the 90's til today was different. Example it took Jordan at least 5 years to get real notice Lebron came in as "THE KING". HE should thank Jordan yes but Jordan should also thank Magic/Bird and Doc J

[97 bulls]

Let me first say Im glad your in your early 30's I have even more respect for you.You love the game. First off Nike also had a guy name Geoge Gevin with one of the best posters ever him sitting on several blocks of Ice. By the 90's Nike was even or had passed Converse.

Can you remind me of the Dr J comercials in 75 ?


As far as Gatorade just to help you was more than just a basketball drink. IT got its fame from the Flordia Gators and was popular in every sport.

Im 10 years older than you the change of media from the 70's to the 90's til today was different. Example it took Jordan at least 5 years to get real notice Lebron came in as "THE KING". HE should thank Jordan yes but Jordan should also thank Magic/Bird and Doc J
Gatorade was known as a sports drink. In fact, it was more popular as a football drink as opposed to being a basketball drink. It just picked up steam and became more mainstream by the 90s. And I was 1 in 75 I just remember some dr j commercials in the 80s. But vaguely. But I agree, magic and bird paved the way for jordan as well as jordan for kobe and james.

[chris2010]

well late 80s he finally got over the bad boy pistons. umm then in the 90s the knicks. apparently they were like the bad boy pistons on steroids. but really toward the end he was beating his health.

[97 bulls]

Those 4 80's teams competed with each other hence the 80's were tougher.
Light at the end of the tunnel now?
Your right crisoner. But you must also factor in that they weren't competing against each other every year. The sixers were irrelevant after 83, the pistons weren't ready til 88, the celtics weren't there in the late 80s. I mean, there's alway been at least 2 teams that I feel were good enough to win it all in the 80s. You're acting like those teams were beating each other every year. Or better yet, you're acting like the sixers were 83 sixers good every year, the celtics were 86 celtics good every year, the lakers were 87 lakers good every yr and the pistons were 90 pistons good every yr. And that's not the case. Not to mention some of the teams the lakers and celtics beat would lost to the 92 blazers, the 97 jazz and the 96 sonics.

[guy]

If Magic/Kareem win every title in the 80s, how does that make their competition look? Bird, McHale, Moses, Dr. J, Isiah are nowhere near what they are considered today.

If Kobe won every title in the 00s, how does that make his competition look?

The OP talks about the individual rivalries and how Wilt and Russell had each other and Magic and Bird had each other. With Wilt/Russell, people don't seem to point out that the NBA was much smaller back then, so of course you were going to see its greatest players playing each other all the time in important series. Magic and Bird faced each other 3 times. Since people wil find any way to discredit championships all the time lets do the same for these 3. Bird won once, and a big reason for that was not cause of Bird, but cause Magic choked away the series uncharacteristically and not like the all-time great he's supposed to be (i.e. like Ewing or Malone). Magic won the second time, but he very arguably wasn't the best player on his team in that series, it was Kareem. Magic won the third time, but the Celtics were an injured mess at the time. See what I did there? You can discredit every championship that has ever been won. Its almost like the 8 times Wilt and Russell faced each other and the 3 times Magic/Bird faced each other are the only years that matter in NBA history to some of you.

Another question: What if John Starks hits that 3 in game 6 of the 1994 Finals? Knicks win it all. Does 1 three-pointer all of a sudden make the Bulls' competition legit? I'll take it one step further. What if the Knicks actually beat the Bulls in 1993 and then win it all, and then repeat in 94? Does it make the Bulls' run better since they beat a 2-time champion in 91, 92, and 96 even though they have 1 less title as a result?

Last time I checked, Jordan beat:

Magic - top 5-10 player of all-time. And no, he wasn't an old, decrepit shell of himself like some say he was. He was the previous year's MVP and that year's runner-up)

Shaq - top 5-10 player of all-time. And I laugh at anyone that tries to use that argument that "he wasn't in his prime". Who cares? The year before he led his team to the Finals, led the league in scoring, and was 2nd in MVP voting. He wasn't in his prime, but even if it was, there's a good chance he'd still be a top 10 player all-time.

Barkley and Malone - top 20 players of all-time and if they had beaten Jordan even once in the Finals or if Jordan just didn't exist, there legacies easily get enhanced even more.

Pistons - 2-time defending champs at the time, what many consider a dynasty, and what many consider one of the best teams ever.

LOL that he didn't beat anyone.

[Niquesports]

Gatorade was known as a sports drink. In fact, it was more popular as a football drink as opposed to being a basketball drink. It just picked up steam and became more mainstream by the 90s. And I was 1 in 75 I just remember some dr j commercials in the 80s. But vaguely. But I agree, magic and bird paved the way for jordan as well as jordan for kobe and james.
I have more respect for you Bulls than most of the younger ish posters.
WHen the media saw the love fans had for Magic/Bird everybody jumped on board. Jordan was the perfect fit. Everyone won.

[guy]

By the way, everyone always says that Jordan was lucky he didn't have to compete against the Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Bad Boy Pistons regularly in the 90s. How come no one points out that those teams were lucky Jordan didn't even have anywhere close to a contender around him during there runs? It works both ways.

[nycelt84]

A real good comparison but that doesnt make either team a all time great.

How about sweeping a Sonic team in 87
Dale Ellis 24 ppg
Tom Chambers 23 ppg
X Mcdaniel 23 ppg

4-1 Against the Warriors
Joe Barry Carroll 21 ppg
Sleepy Flood 18 ppg
Purvis Short 18ppg
Chris Mullin 15 ppg

3-0 Denver

Alex English
Fat Lever
Bill hanzlik
Darrell Walker

How does that look for the very weak West
Then 4-2 agaisnt a Boston team just the year before every one calls the GOAT team. The same team that swept your Bulls beat the Bucks and Pistons yet were just too beat up to match the lakers Excuses :facepalm

The '87 Sonics only won 39 games and may be the worst team to ever reach a Conference Finals. The '87 Warriors only won 42 games and that year's Nuggets won 37 games. Not exactly a heavyweight lineup of opponents with Alex English being the only HOF of the players mentioned.

[97 bulls]

I have more respect for you Bulls than most of the younger ish posters.
WHen the media saw the love fans had for Magic/Bird everybody jumped on board. Jordan was the perfect fit. Everyone won.
I, not gonna sit here and say that the mediadidnt help launch jordan in the stratophere, but saying that the media made jordan? No. In fact ill take it a step further. Dou you know how hard it is to meet the "hype" that the media put on jordan? And he never disappointed. In fact, he often over delivered. Its like the superbowl. 2 weeks of commercials, talk shows, interviews etc, and you sit down and watch it and it bombs. And honestly, its not cuz the game is bad, it just never meets the hype. I never turned of the tv after watching a bulls game with jordan and felt like he could've done more. The only person in my lifetime that was like that is michael jackson.

[crisoner]

Your right crisoner. But you must also factor in that they weren't competing against each other every year. The sixers were irrelevant after 83, the pistons weren't ready til 88, the celtics weren't there in the late 80s. I mean, there's alway been at least 2 teams that I feel were good enough to win it all in the 80s. You're acting like those teams were beating each other every year. Or better yet, you're acting like the sixers were 83 sixers good every year, the celtics were 86 celtics good every year, the lakers were 87 lakers good every yr and the pistons were 90 pistons good every yr. And that's not the case. Not to mention some of the teams the lakers and celtics beat would lost to the 92 blazers, the 97 jazz and the 96 sonics.

True all four you can say did not compete all at the sametime you can say.

But early 80's Lakers vs. Sixers..to Lakers vs. Celtics mid 80's...to Lakers vs. Celtics vs. Pistons in the Late 80's. That is the break down.
IMO throw any 90's team (exception of Jordan's Bulls) and they will NOT compete for titles in the 80's. But throw in any of the four team in the 90's and IMO again Jordan's Bulls would not be winning six titles.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=crisoner]True all four you can say did not compete all at the sametime you can say.

But early 80's Lakers vs. Sixers..to Lakers vs. Celtics mid 80's...to Lakers vs. Celtics vs. Pistons in the Late 80's. That is the break down.
IMO throw any 90's team (exception of Jordan's Bulls) and they will NOT compete for titles in the 80's. But throw in any of the four team in the 90's and IMO again Jordan's Bulls would not be winning six titles.[/QUOT
but how can you say this when both the lakers and celtics lost to teams they should've beat? And beat some barely over 500 teams in the finals? And I do feel that 90s teams may have been able to beat a few of those 80s teams. Like the pre 83 sixers or the rockets. So basically the jazz, magic, knicks, and sonics, who couldn't win in the 90s would've won in the 80s in my opinion.

[97 bulls]

The '87 Sonics only won 39 games and may be the worst team to ever reach a Conference Finals. The '87 Warriors only won 42 games and that year's Nuggets won 37 games. Not exactly a heavyweight lineup of opponents with Alex English being the only HOF of the players mentioned.
Exactly, the 80s lakers played and lost to some bad teams in the playoffs.

[hoopaddict08]

If MJ never beat anyone important, then no-one important ever beat MJ.

Who did Shaq face again that was so good? Duncan. Didn't he need the help of Kobe to do it? Yes. Did Kobe need Shaq to get to where he is now? Yes.

See the problem with this thread is that it's stupid.

Even the great players that beat other great players needed the help of someone else who was also very good.

Jordan went against one of the greatest defensive teams we have ever seen, I will take that over going against another elite level of competition at just one position.

With that said, I'm going back to :sleeping

[comerb]

WTF? Dude, Jordan was the SAME AGE as these guys when they battled. Same for Barkley and Ewing. Magic was only a couple years older than MJ when Jordan won in 91, so the gap's not that wide.



Not to mention that Malone was actually better in his 30s than his 20s.

[MasterDurant24]

Isiah
Dumars
Magic
Worthy
Barkley
Clyde
Stockton
Malone
Payton
Ewing
Nique

11 Hall of Famers, along with

Alonzo Mourning
Glen Rice
Jamal Mashburn
John Starks
Kevin Johnson
Reggie Miller
Shaq
Rodman
Penny Hardaway
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Larry Nance
Mark Price
Brad Daugherty

That's alot of talent.

[Niquesports]

I, not gonna sit here and say that the mediadidnt help launch jordan in the stratophere, but saying that the media made jordan? No. In fact ill take it a step further. Dou you know how hard it is to meet the "hype" that the media put on jordan? And he never disappointed. In fact, he often over delivered. Its like the superbowl. 2 weeks of commercials, talk shows, interviews etc, and you sit down and watch it and it bombs. And honestly, its not cuz the game is bad, it just never meets the hype. I never turned of the tv after watching a bulls game with jordan and felt like he could've done more. The only person in my lifetime that was like that is michael jackson.

This we can agree on. I haved friends that went to UNC with Jordan and they told of how Jordan would take a lil rec ping pong game into who was the best.I would say in my list of winners Russ is first Magic is second and then Jordan. KObe can win 8 titles but he isnt Jordan

[Niquesports]

The '87 Sonics only won 39 games and may be the worst team to ever reach a Conference Finals. The '87 Warriors only won 42 games and that year's Nuggets won 37 games. Not exactly a heavyweight lineup of opponents with Alex English being the only HOF of the players mentioned.The list is far better than any Jordan faced.I mean really 2 of the Knicks were ex CBA players

[Wuxia]

the OP was obviously a troll post, but what's ironic is, the 90s may have produced the greatest players of all time.

[Wuxia]

we are talking about Stockton/Malone, Payton/Kemp, Barkley, Drexler, Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, Ewing, and the list goes on and on.

[The Iron Fist]

Exactly, the 80s lakers played and lost to some bad teams in the playoffs.


81, they lost to the western conference champion Rockets 2-1, back when the first round consisted of a best of 3 format.

83, lost in finals, to 6ers.

84, lost in finals, to Celtics.

86, lost in wc finals, to Rockets.

89, lost in finals, to Pistons.

So, where are these bad teams they lost to?

[97 bulls]

81, they lost to the western conference champion Rockets 2-1, back when the first round consisted of a best of 3 format.

83, lost in finals, to 6ers.

84, lost in finals, to Celtics.

86, lost in wc finals, to Rockets.

89, lost in finals, to Pistons.

So, where are these bad teams they lost to?
Good point. I guess I should've said that they beat some bad teams, but lost to teams they shouldn't have lost too.

[NBASTATMAN]

Not to get off-topic, but I'd take Dirk/KG/Tim Duncan over Karl Malone.


Dirk is not in that league, his defense will never allow him to win a title.. Kg and Tim are both great players but Karl was a better scorer than both and he was quite a defender as well.. People forget that a 40 yr old Mailman shut Duncan down in 2004 while playing with the lakers.. That duo of Stockton and Malone also beat barkley, hakeem, and drexler... He also beat Payton and Kemp.. He also beat Shaq and penny...

Payton is a top 50 player if they made a new list. The others are all there..

Duncan is a great player but in terms of peak play I am not sure he is much better than say a ewing... He has been lucky enuff to play with some quality players.. Though not to the extent of his two other closest rivals..

[nycelt84]

The list is far better than any Jordan faced.I mean really 2 of the Knicks were ex CBA players

This post is stupid on so many levels. 1st not one of the 90's Knicks teams Ebt finished a season with 40 or less wins. And 2nd Patrick Ewing is a far better player than every one of the players that the Lakers faced in the West in the '87 playoffs. Nothing was exceptional about those squads and any great team would run through those teams like the Lakers did, even good teams like the '10 Magic would whip those squads.

[dallaslonghorn]

Dirk is not in that league, his defense will never allow him to win a title.. Kg and Tim are both great players but Karl was a better scorer than both and he was quite a defender as well.. People forget that a 40 yr old Mailman shut Duncan down in 2004 while playing with the lakers.. That duo of Stockton and Malone also beat barkley, hakeem, and drexler... He also beat Payton and Kemp.. He also beat Shaq and penny...

Payton is a top 50 player if they made a new list. The others are all there..

Duncan is a great player but in terms of peak play I am not sure he is much better than say a ewing... He has been lucky enuff to play with some quality players.. Though not to the extent of his two other closest rivals..

I think the main reason I would take all three players over Karl Malone is because they are all at least three inches taller than him. That is a very very big deal!

The Mailman could never be as good on defense as TD or KG -- they are taller then him!

Malone has scored a lot more points than Dirk, but I suspect a lot of that has to do with him playing in a much faster paced era than Dirk. There has to be some research about this somewhere.

[Teanett]

I think the main reason I would take all three players over Karl Malone is because they are all at least three inches taller than him. That is a very very big deal!

The Mailman could never be as good on defense as TD or KG -- they are taller then him!

Malone has scored a lot more points than Dirk, but I suspect a lot of that has to do with him playing in a much faster paced era than Dirk. There has to be some research about this somewhere.

faster pace my ass!
-he played for utah, the masters of half-court, gods of pick and roll.
-he's not some aba/showtime/fro-and-headband player,
-he won mvp in the 90's, for crying out loud. the style of those days made the nba change the rules TO GET THE SCORES UP!!!