Who did MJ actually beat?

[dallaslonghorn]

I don't want to be struck by lightning from the basketball gods or anything, but .....

Everyone agrees that MJ never had a true rival -- no Wilt to his Russell, no Magic to his Bird, no Duncan to his Shaq. And for many people, this is one of the biggest signs of his dominance. But isn't it possible that it wasn't that MJ was THAT good but more that his competition wasn't all that impressive?

This is not a knock on him by any stretch ... but the only top 10 players he beat in the playoffs ... Magic/Kareem in '91 and Shaq in Orlando (but this was hardly prime Shaq, this was "Kazaam" Shaq :oldlol:)

He never played prime Shaq, never played prime Hakeem, never played prime Tim Duncan ... hell, he never even played prime Kobe :oldlol:

He beat a bunch of power forwards and point guards in the '92, '93 and '96-'98 Finals. None of whom are top 25 type dudes.

NBA fans from the '80's, how many titles would MJ's Bulls have won in the 80's? I really have no idea, just asking.

[Sarcastic]

In his first title run in 1991, he went through Ewing's Knicks, Barkley's Sixers, Isiah's Pistons, and Magic Johnson's Lakers.

[dallaslonghorn]

In his first title run in 1991, he went through Ewing's Knicks, Barkley's Sixers, Isiah's Pistons, and Magic Johnson's Lakers.

That's a pretty impressive list ... but look at the 96-98 playoff runs ...

[DeronMillsap]

That's a pretty impressive list ... but look at the 96-98 playoff runs ...
He beat a Top 2 PG and a Top 3 PF of all-time, twice.

[Dave3]

Prime Stockton/Malone? Prime Payton/Kemp, Drexler, he did beat Shaq, whether he was prime or not is debatable, prime Ewing, bad boy pistons a year after they won the championship, prime Barkley, and prime Mourning. Think about it, when people talk of most of the best players of the 90s, everyone talks about how great they were but could never get rings (Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, etc). It's not that there wasn't competition, it was that the Bulls were so dominant it made everyone else look worse than they were.

[Ruh-Roh]

Kareem wasn't on the 91 team.

edit - happy 700 to me.

[Sarcastic]

That's a pretty impressive list ... but look at the 96-98 playoff runs ...

In the 96-98 run, you still see names like Shaq, Karl Malone, Alonzo Mourning, Chris Webber, Ewing, and Reggie Miller.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Prime Stockton/Malone? Prime Payton/Kemp, Drexler, he did beat Shaq, whether he was prime or not is debatable, prime Ewing, bad boy pistons a year after they won the championship, prime Barkley, and prime Mourning. Think about it, when people talk of most of the best players of the 90s, everyone talks about how great they were but could never get rings (Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, etc). It's not that there wasn't competition, it was that the Bulls were so dominant it made everyone else look worse than they were.

Bingo! The one thing missing from most of those guys careers is rings. Care to take a guess why?

[Collie]

If Karl Malone had 2 rings, he would be neck and neck with TD as the GOAT PF. It's not that MJ had no competition, but that the competition suffered because of a lack of rings.

[dallaslonghorn]

Prime Stockton/Malone? Prime Payton/Kemp, Drexler, he did beat Shaq, whether he was prime or not is debatable, prime Ewing, bad boy pistons a year after they won the championship, prime Barkley, and prime Mourning. Think about it, when people talk of most of the best players of the 90s, everyone talks about how great they were but could never get rings (Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, etc). It's not that there wasn't competition, it was that the Bulls were so dominant it made everyone else look worse than they were.

Are any of these guys even top 20 players though? Like they were all good, all probly HOF guys ... but Payton and Kemp? Drexler? Ewing? C'mon did you just seriously mention Alonzo Mourning? I like 'Zo, but he's just not at the same level of the game.

I don't see how it's "debatable" that the Orlando Shaq was "prime Shaq" ... he wasn't. Stats, and common sense, can tell you that.

Barkley, Stockton, Malone ... these are all fringe top 20 guys. At best.

[Sarcastic]

If Karl Malone had 2 rings, he would be neck and neck with TD as the GOAT PF. It's not that MJ had no competition, but that the competition suffered because of a lack of rings.

If Karl Malone had 2 rings he would probably be considered better than Duncan, due to his prolific scoring.

[Skep]

Prime Stockton/Malone? Prime Payton/Kemp, Drexler, he did beat Shaq, whether he was prime or not is debatable, prime Ewing, bad boy pistons a year after they won the championship, prime Barkley, and prime Mourning. Think about it, when people talk of most of the best players of the 90s, everyone talks about how great they were but could never get rings (Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, etc). It's not that there wasn't competition, it was that the Bulls were so dominant it made everyone else look worse than they were.


Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

[dallaslonghorn]

He beat a Top 2 PG and a Top 3 PF of all-time, twice.

Not to get off-topic, but I'd take Dirk/KG/Tim Duncan over Karl Malone.

[Skep]

Not to get off-topic, but I'd take Dirk/KG/Tim Duncan over Karl Malone.


That shows your age.

[Collie]

Not to get off-topic, but I'd take Dirk/KG/Tim Duncan over Karl Malone.


Duncan? Sure. KG? Debateable, but I could see it (depending teams). Dirk? GTFO

[Kellogs4toniee]

I don't want to be struck by lightning from the basketball gods or anything, but .....

Everyone agrees that MJ never had a true rival -- no Wilt to his Russell, no Magic to his Bird, no Duncan to his Shaq. And for many people, this is one of the biggest signs of his dominance. But isn't it possible that it wasn't that MJ was THAT good but more that his competition wasn't all that impressive?

This is not a knock on him by any stretch ... but the only top 10 players he beat in the playoffs ... Magic/Kareem in '91 and Shaq in Orlando (but this was hardly prime Shaq, this was "Kazaam" Shaq :oldlol:)

He never played prime Shaq, never played prime Hakeem, never played prime Tim Duncan ... hell, he never even played prime Kobe :oldlol:

He beat a bunch of power forwards and point guards in the '92, '93 and '96-'98 Finals. None of whom are top 25 type dudes.

NBA fans from the '80's, how many titles would MJ's Bulls have won in the 80's? I really have no idea, just asking.



The reason why he did not play against many top 10 competition during the 90's was because he was literally actively stopping players who had 10 top potential from achieving that status. Charles Barkley? Karl Malone? Gary Payton? John Stockton? Patrick Ewing? Clyde Drexler? How would there resume's look like if they had won at least 2-3 titles?

How greater would there legacies be with 1, 2, 3, heck maybe even 4 rings? We'll never know because of Air number 23 Jordan.

That is why MJ is the greatest.

[dallaslonghorn]

If Karl Malone had 2 rings, he would be neck and neck with TD as the GOAT PF. It's not that MJ had no competition, but that the competition suffered because of a lack of rings.

But do you see what I'm saying? It's a lot of circular reasoning ...

1) Karl Malone would be considered a GOAT PF if he had two rings

2) MJ stopped him from winning rings.

3) So MJ hurt the legacies of his generation, which is why there aren't nearly as many '90's guys in most people's top 10-15 ... are there any? I remember some sort of massive poll where people ranked the top 100 in history of the NBA ... where any of the '90's guys in the upper spots?

Well maybe a 37 year old Karl Malone would have lost to the Reggie Miller Pacers who took the Bulls to seven ... it's certainly possible. And in that case, MJ wasn't depressing anyone's legacy, he was simply taking advantage of a paucity of competition.

[Skep]

Duncan? Sure. KG? Debateable, but I could see it (depending teams). Dirk? GTFO

in 04` in the WCF 40 year old Karl Malone frustrated reigning MVP KG.

He out bodied him that entire series.


Only argument over malone is duncan.

[dallaslonghorn]

The reason why he did not play against many top 10 competition during the 90's was because he was literally actively stopping players who had 10 top potential from achieving that status. Charles Barkley? Karl Malone? Gary Payton? John Stockton? How would there resume's look like if they had won at least 2-3 titles?

That is why MJ is the greatest.

I just don't see how you can KNOW that any of those guys would have won titles ... well obviously someone would have ... but maybe it's Ewing's Knicks who start steam-rolling an MJ-less NBA or Miller's Pacers ... it's certainly possible.

I'm not saying they necessarily would, but I certainly think it's a possibility.

And if you look at those guys, not in terms of their careers, but in terms of their actual abilities as basketball players do any of them (besides Stockton) rally match up to Tim Duncan? Isiah Thomas? Shaq? Kobe?

[andgar923]

I don't want to be struck by lightning from the basketball gods or anything, but .....

Everyone agrees that MJ never had a true rival -- no Wilt to his Russell, no Magic to his Bird, no Duncan to his Shaq. And for many people, this is one of the biggest signs of his dominance. But isn't it possible that it wasn't that MJ was THAT good but more that his competition wasn't all that impressive?

This is not a knock on him by any stretch ... but the only top 10 players he beat in the playoffs ... Magic/Kareem in '91 and Shaq in Orlando (but this was hardly prime Shaq, this was "Kazaam" Shaq :oldlol:)

He never played prime Shaq, never played prime Hakeem, never played prime Tim Duncan ... hell, he never even played prime Kobe :oldlol:

He beat a bunch of power forwards and point guards in the '92, '93 and '96-'98 Finals. None of whom are top 25 type dudes.

NBA fans from the '80's, how many titles would MJ's Bulls have won in the 80's? I really have no idea, just asking.

Howabout he beat great teams and not necessarily (although he did) great players?

Players can be great but not be on a great team. Then there's great teams with players either past their prime or not yet developed.

Suppose the Hawks beat the Heat this year, will people say... "Joe Johnson beat Bron and Wade!!!" Sure.... they have great 'individual' players, but are they truly a great team at this moment? not really.

I don't even consider the 92 Finals as MJ beating Drexler, because he beat a great TEAM. That Blazers team was a great team one of the best in that decade. And whatabout those Knicks teams that they beat? Ewing was the star but he was only a piece of a great team.

Then there's also a difference between a team beating somebody and a team losing. I might be wrong, but I don't remember the Bulls' opponents losing a series, I do think that the Bulls beat them.... big difference imo.

[Dave3]

Are any of these guys even top 20 players though? Like they were all good, all probly HOF guys ... but Payton and Kemp? Drexler? Ewing? C'mon did you just seriously mention Alonzo Mourning? I like 'Zo, but he's just not at the same level of the game.

I don't see how it's "debatable" that the Orlando Shaq was "prime Shaq" ... he wasn't. Stats, and common sense, can tell you that.

Barkley, Stockton, Malone ... these are all fringe top 20 guys. At best.
That's the thing though. All those guys would be very very highly ranked if they had rings. Magic and Bird had a rivalry because one could beat the other. Jordan on the other hand, was so dominant no one could win against him. You can't be top 10 if you've never won anything, and you can't win anything if you're always playing against the best. It's a circular argument because those things go in a cycle.

[Sarcastic]

Just to remind you how good Karl Malone was: he had 11 straight years of scoring 25+ ppg, and most of them were 27+. He is easily a top 20 player of all time, and so is Barkley.

[Nevaeh]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

WTF? Dude, Jordan was the SAME AGE as these guys when they battled. Same for Barkley and Ewing. Magic was only a couple years older than MJ when Jordan won in 91, so the gap's not that wide.

This is obviously another "Agenda" thread but whatever. It's not Jordan's fault these guys couldn't get it done. It also doesn't mean they were scrub competition either.

[dallaslonghorn]

in 04` in the WCF 40 year old Karl Malone frustrated reigning MVP KG.

He out bodied him that entire series.


Only argument over malone is duncan.

A lot of Malone's spots in this list is based on his longevity ... well if size and shooting ability are the two traits most linked with aging well .... and Dirk has showed NO interest in any aspect of his life besides basketball (like seriously, as a DFW native, I can assure you if he just rolled out to to Uptown once or twice, that broad who got arrested :facepalm he'd never have talked to her :oldlol: Uptown, in the right spots and the right nights is ... :eek:) ... couldn't Dirk play well into his 40's?

Not like his game depends on athleticism AT ALL. He's always going to be seven feet; he's always going to have a technically perfect jumper ... if he avoids injury and stays on teams where the offense is run through him ... he might end up in the top 5.

And while Malone was the better rebounder/defender ... he was primarily a jump-shooting forward who was 6'9; Dirk is 7'0 ... big big difference.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I just don't see how you can KNOW that any of those guys would have won titles ... well obviously someone would have ... but maybe it's Ewing's Knicks who start steam-rolling an MJ-less NBA or Miller's Pacers ... it's certainly possible.

I'm not saying they necessarily would, but I certainly think it's a possibility.

And if you look at those guys, not in terms of their careers, but in terms of their actual abilities as basketball players do any of them (besides Stockton) rally match up to Tim Duncan? Isiah Thomas? Shaq? Kobe?


A lot of Malone's spots in this list is based on his longevity ... well if size and shooting ability are the two traits most linked with aging well .... and Dirk has showed NO interest in any aspect of his life besides basketball (like seriously, as a DFW native, I can assure you if he just rolled out to to Uptown once or twice, that broad who got arrested he'd never have talked to her Uptown, in the right spots and the right nights is ... ) ... couldn't Dirk play well into his 40's?

Not like his game depends on athleticism AT ALL. He's always going to be seven feet; he's always going to have a technically perfect jumper ... if he avoids injury and stays on teams where the offense is run through him ... he might end up in the top 5.

And while Malone was the better rebounder/defender ... he was primarily a jump-shooting forward who was 6'9; Dirk is 7'0 ... big big difference.

You really really REALLY sound like you started watching basketball at the earliest in the late 90's. You are so disrespecting Malone right now it's ridiculous.


We already mentioned Barkley, Drexler, Payton, Kemp (All these players were able to get to the Finals before Stockton and Malone to face Jordan).

Barkley, Malone, Stockton, border-line Ewing, border-line Payton, heck Jordan literally spanked the hell out of the Jordan vs. Drexler debate in those finals and Drexler really wasn't the same after that.

Please stop it... your pathetic attempts at trying to downplay Jordan, AND at the same time trying to make it out like your not, is really making you look like a fool to these entire forums.

[Dave3]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.
Not really, because he still beat the teams that they lost to. Not his fault they couldn't even make it to the finals to face him...BTW, they were 34/36, not 36/38 when they played in '97...which does make a difference.

[Ne 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

[andgar923]

That's the thing though. All those guys would be very very highly ranked if they had rings. Magic and Bird had a rivalry because one could beat the other. Jordan on the other hand, was so dominant no one could win against him. You can't be top 10 if you've never won anything, and you can't win anything if you're always playing against the best. It's a circular argument because those things go in a cycle.

Exactly.

If Mj isn't around Drexler might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Barkley might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Ewing might get 2 (his legacy jumps up)
Malone and Stockton might get 2 (their legacy jump up)

etc.etc.

This same argument can be applied to MVPs as well. The voters have mentioned that it was a given that MJ was the best, so they decided to give it to others (kinda like the Phil Jackson rule for the all star coaching). MJ could've ended with even more MVPs. But to be fair to the other players, they passed them around.

[DeronMillsap]

I think if the OP lived through the 90's then he'd see how great Malone, Barkley, Stockton, etc..were.

Malone and Barkley were 1a and 1b as the greatest PF at the time when MJ beat them. Stockton was already #2/#3 best PG, Payton was probably a top 5 PG as well. The center position is big but I think Ewing was up there.

Jordan slaughtered a lot of legends and former Top 20 player at the time of his playing career.

[dallaslonghorn]

WTF? Dude, Jordan was the SAME AGE as these guys when they battled. Same for Barkley and Ewing. Magic was only a couple years older than MJ when Jordan won in 91, so the gap's not that wide.

This is obviously another "Agenda" thread but whatever. It's not Jordan's fault these guys couldn't get it done. It also doesn't mean they were scrub competition either.

Why? Why does this have to be an agenda thread? Me and some friends were talking about MJ's legacy while we were playing basketball today, b/c of a RIDICULOUS story we heard about him interacting with Vanderbilt sorority girls at spring break a few years back ... message me if you want some details ... cuz it is :roll: :roll: :roll:

So I figured I would put a thread about what we were talking about on ISH ... what's the agenda? This board must be filled with disingenuous a******* :oldlol:

So he beat prime Magic once then. I'm just not so sure that Barkley and Ewing would have been considered top 20 guys, regardless of whether they had played MJ or not ... someone else could have beat them too.

Obviously my thinking here is hypothetical and inherently unprovable ... but so is thinking that w/o MJ -- Malone and Stockton have 2, Barkley has 1, Kemp and Payton have 1 etc etc.

[StillKill24]

If Hakeem had the team Jordan had he'd would be gettig called goat.

[dallaslonghorn]

Exactly.

If Mj isn't around Drexler might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Barkley might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Ewing might get 2 (his legacy jumps up)
Malone and Stockton might get 2 (their legacy jump up)

etc.etc.

This same argument can be applied to MVPs as well. The voters have mentioned that it was a given that MJ was the best, so they decided to give it to others (kinda like the Phil Jackson rule for the all star coaching). MJ could've ended with even more MVPs. But to be fair to the other players, they passed them around.

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

[Dave3]

If Hakeem had the team Jordan had he'd would be gettig called goat.
Didn't he get Pippen and Barkley? It's not about the names of the players on the team. It's how well they go together and the competition you have to beat. Hakeem won without a solid number 2 option, but couldn't win with Pippen....team dynamics are more than just "player+player+player."

[Kellogs4toniee]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.


http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/family_guy_stewie_chat_total_idiot_black_shirt.jpg

[dallaslonghorn]

Like if you look at the history of the NBA ... it's the centers more often than not that determine the titles ... Wilt/Russell --> Kareem --> Shaq/Duncan

And Jordan never played any of them, not in their prime. He never even played Hakeem in the Finals.

[dallaslonghorn]

http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/family_guy_stewie_chat_total_idiot_black_shirt.jpg

I usually don't respond to people who I think are idiots :oldlol:

Thanks for the ad hominem attack though, it really does a good job of increasing the discourse on the board :oldlol:

[StillKill24]

Didn't he get Pippen and Barkley? It's not about the names of the players on the team. It's how well they go together and the competition you have to beat. Hakeem won without a solid number 2 option, but couldn't win with Pippen....team dynamics are more than just "player+player+player."
He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?

[DeronMillsap]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.
Don't forget about Barkley. He is also a Top 20 player, no doubt.

[DeronMillsap]

Like if you look at the history of the NBA ... it's the centers more often than not that determine the titles ... Wilt/Russell --> Kareem --> Shaq/Duncan

And Jordan never played any of them, not in their prime. He never even played Hakeem in the Finals.
:facepalm OK, now you lost me.

Jordan is a guard. :lol

[andgar923]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

Such as?

Are you saying Charles aint?
Ewing?
Drexler?


Who are you referring too?

Shaq?
Magic?
Isiah?


And who are 'your' top 20 players of all time? because Mj didn't go up against many of the players from the 60s, 70s and 80s which make up a bulk of that list.

Fact is, MJ beat the best players of the modern era, in an era with great big men.

[Collie]

He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?


One year removed from a 19-7-6 season where he won a championship. Also Hakeem wasn't as good as MJ, so he would NOT have won as much even with the same supporting cast.

[Micku]

1. Magic- Not really a rivalry, but Magic was many people's GOAT player to the normal peeps.

2. Clyde- They were trying to build up a rivalry between him and MJ, but the Bulls messed that up.

3. Barkley- Would've been cool, and MJ and Barkley had some nice battles too, but the Bulls always won.

4. Payton- One of the GOAT perimeter defender.

5. Stockton/Malone- Probably their best rivalry in the second half of the threepeat.


MJ actually beat a lot of quality teams. The rivalry that you are looking for actually are more team rivalry than individual though. They had good players on the teams, but it is extremely rare to find a rivalry like Bird vs Magic.

Bulls vs Cavs (many times, and close games too)

Bulls vs Pistons (Pistons beat the Bulls up)

Bulls vs Knicks (Epic battles, basically throughout the 90s)

Bulls vs Jazz (one of the memorable series)


If it weren't for the Bulls, there would've be a lot of teams/players that would've looked at much differently.

[Dave3]

He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?
Not "way" past but yeah he was. Point is though, anyone can say "if you put those players together they win" but you can't actually say it with certainty because basketball isn't just adding up players. I mean, Pippen a year removed from a title, Barkley still playing well, and Hakeem still playing well couldn't win a title. Just like prime Shaq and Kobe, with Malone/Payton still playing at a decent level couldn't win a title, losing to a team almost incomparable in talent. It's not simple addition.

[Force]

LOL @ anybody saying that Karl Malone was basically a jump shooter. I saw Karl play from the beginning. Absolute monster who was impossible to guard, he got to the free throw line so easy, very high ball IQ as well. You don't get to the line as often as Malone by shooting jump shots.

[dallaslonghorn]

You really really REALLY sound like you started watching basketball at the earliest in the late 90's. You are so disrespecting Malone right now it's ridiculous.


We already mentioned Barkley, Drexler, Payton, Kemp (All these players were able to get to the Finals before Stockton and Malone to face Jordan).

Barkley, Malone, Stockton, border-line Ewing, border-line Payton, heck Jordan literally spanked the hell out of the Jordan vs. Drexler debate in those finals and Drexler really wasn't the same after that.

Please stop it... your pathetic attempts at trying to downplay Jordan, AND at the same time trying to make it out like your not, is really making you look like a fool to these entire forums.

And to be perfectly honest with you, if some random internet name on a message board thinks I am an "idiot" or a "fool" for an opinion about a game .... well I'm not sure I can emphasize how little I care :oldlol:

I genuinely think this is an interesting convo, I am not trying to troll or anything, but whatever.

[andgar923]

Like if you look at the history of the NBA ... it's the centers more often than not that determine the titles ... Wilt/Russell --> Kareem --> Shaq/Duncan

And Jordan never played any of them, not in their prime. He never even played Hakeem in the Finals.

And they didn't have to face MJ either.

I understand the point you made, but is it his fault that he didn't face them? He did beat Ewing multiple times did he not? oh... wait.... he aint a top 20 player because he doesn't have a ring? gee... I wonder why.

[Ruh-Roh]

OP - edit your sh*t man, please. Kareem retired in '89, he wasn't there for the '91 playoffs.

[nashisbest]

MJ didnt have to guard someone like Kobe or Wade... there was no SG at their level or even close

[oh the horror]

MJ didnt have to guard someone like Kobe or Wade... there was no SG at their level or even close



You must be joking.

[Ne 1]

MJ never had a true rival to measure himself against.

The closest was probably Isiah Thomas and the Pistons in the late 80/early 90s and Isiah and company sent him home fishing 3 straight years.

The Bulls finally got passed Detroit in '91 with Isiah missing 34 games because of an injury to his wrist that he got surgery on during the season. Still hampered by wrist in the playoffs he misses 2 playoff games. If Isiah isn't hurt, the Pistons probably send the Bulls home for a 4th year in a row.

[DeronMillsap]

I can just say that Shaq, Duncan and Kobe beat a bunch on non-Top 25 players and non-HOFers to established themselves as Top 10 players.

So take away their(Shaq/Kobe vs Duncan) rivalry, who have they beaten?

'99 Knicks have no HOFers(Ewing was injured)
Pacers had Miller but he's not a Top 20 players
Sixers had Iverson but he's not a Top 20
Nets had Kidd...maybe a Top 5 PG but definitely not a Top 20 player
Pistons had no HOFers...Billups is borderline HOFer, I suppose
Cavs had LeBron, only in his 3rd season when Duncan beat him.
Celtics have a Top 20 in Garnett but that's it. Pierce and Ray are not Top 20.
Magic have Dwight...still too early to tell

See what I did there...?

[dallaslonghorn]

I can just say that Shaq, Duncan and Kobe beat a bunch on non-Top 25 players and non-HOFers to established themselves as Top 10 players.

So take away their(Shaq/Kobe vs Duncan) rivalry, who have they beaten?

'99 Knicks have no HOFers(Ewing was injured)
Pacers had Miller but he's not a Top 20 players
Sixers had Iverson but he's not a Top 20
Nets had Kidd...maybe a Top 5 PG but definitely not a Top 20 player
Pistons had no HOFers...Billups is borderline HOFer, I suppose
Cavs had LeBron, only in his 3rd season when Duncan beat him.
Celtics have a Top 20 in Garnett but that's it. Pierce and Ray are not Top 20.
Magic have Dwight...still too early to tell

See what I did there...?

Maybe that tells you something on how we rank players all-time ... maybe how many championships a person wins depends on A LOT of factors (time period, competitors, teammates) that are 100% out of their control ... so maybe we should rank them differently?

Now that I think about it, I guess that was the underlying point of this thread. Thanks for clearing that up, good post.

[KG5MVP]

surface jordan hater who's actually a hidden jordan homer trying to get everyone to praise jordan's competition and his greatness

nice try.

[MrJohnWall]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era

[MrJohnWall]

MJ didnt have to guard someone like Kobe or Wade... there was no SG at their level or even close

Watch Mj stans say Clyde Drexler was on Kobe & Wade level lol

[Ruh-Roh]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era

This may be the dumbest thing I've read this week...

[EarlTheGoat]

I agree and disagree at the same time with what the OP said.

Michael Jordan did face all-time great HOF caliber type players: Ewing, Isiah, Stockton, Malone, Shaq, Payton, Barkley, Reggie Miller...etc. The problem is, the 90s Bulls were at the same time very dominant and one of the best teams to ever play the game, but they didnt face any all-time great team like lets say the 81-87 Celtics or the 82-88 Lakers or the 60s Celtics...etc etc.

Jordan and his Bulls faced great individual players and very good teams, but not "all-time great" teams. Just compare the quality of the 93 Suns, the 91 Lakers, the 92 Blazers, the 96-98 Jazz...etc etc to the teams I mentioned in the above paragraph, they are not even close in excellence. That is the only knock you can have on Jordan when talking about him, he didnt face the same competition players like Kareem, Bird or Magic faced.

The only all-time great team they played against (in my opinion) was the Bad Boy Pistons, but in the 1991 run for the title that Pistons team was already declining and wasnt really on their prime. We saw what a prime Bad Boys Pistons (87-90) did to Jordan`s Bulls (you can also argue that team wasnt fully completed but Pippen and H.Grant were already members), from 1988 to 1990 the Bulls couldnt defeat that prime Piston team, so it makes you wonder. Would have any of the winning Bulls (91, 92, 93, 96, 97 and 98) won a prime 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers or 80s Pistons? I dont know the answer, but one thing is for sure, they would have given more competition than the Suns, Jazz or Sonics gave.

With this said, those Bulls were a perfectly built team, absolutely amazing. Every piece fit together very well in the triangle, they were a machine on both ends of the floor. They had the best player in the game, the best sidekick in the history of the game who could do everything on the court, they had a shooting PG with good ball handle perfect for the triangle system (Paxson and later Harper), and they had solid 3rd options in the front-court (Grant and Rodman).


My take is, put 90s Bulls in the 80s decade and I think they dont win 6 titles, maybe 3 or 4 at best.

[MrJohnWall]

This may be the dumbest thing I've read this week...
Please show me a better team from any era

You cant do it period

and i forgot Iverson

[DeronMillsap]

Maybe that tells you something on how we rank players all-time ... maybe how many championships a person wins depends on A LOT of factors (time period, competitors, teammates) that are 100% out of their control ... so maybe we should rank them differently?

Now that I think about it, I guess that was the underlying point of this thread. Thanks for clearing that up, good post.
Yeah, in retrospective it's a lot easier to rank where players are in terms of their championships or lack there of.

But I see your point though...that it looked like Jordan didn't have any competition. Then again, if his competitions were up to par with him then he wouldn't have had 6 titles. He might not be considered the GOAT.

Duncan took away a few titles from Shaq and Kobe, vice versa. That's why there's competition there between the three.

[dallaslonghorn]

surface jordan hater who's actually a hidden jordan homer trying to get everyone to praise jordan's competition and his greatness

nice try.

I hope you are joking, but I really can't tell anymore.

The logical contortions that seem to go along with assigning motivations on this board .... I consider myself a smart guy, but I honestly can't figure this stuff out :oldlol:

Here's a good example:

1) I post a thread about the spread of a Utah/LA game.
2) I think Odom/Millsap match-up gives LA an advantage.
3) Apparently I am now giving too much credit to LA's big men and not Kobe in terms of winning the last two NBA titles.
4) This makes me a "transparent LeBron stan" with an "agenda" to "discredit Kobe" :oldlol:

Like I suppose or maybe I just wanted a second opinion before I put up like $50 on a regular season basketball game :oldlol:

[KG5MVP]

I hope you are joking, but I really can't tell anymore.

The logical contortions that seem to go along with assigning motivations on this board .... I consider myself a smart guy, but I honestly can't figure this stuff out :oldlol:

Here's a good example:

1) I post a thread about the spread of a Utah/LA game.
2) I think Odom/Millsap match-up gives LA an advantage.
3) Apparently I am now giving too much credit to LA's big men and not Kobe in terms of winning the last two NBA titles.
4) This makes me a "transparent LeBron stan" with an "agenda" to "discredit Kobe" :oldlol:

Like I suppose or maybe I just wanted a second opinion before I put up like $50 on a regular season basketball game :oldlol:

Yes and the earth is round.

Nice try you rational empirical solipsist

[Teanett]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era

YAO MING!!!
one of the most dominant centers ever!!!
:hammertime:

[Ruh-Roh]

Please show me a better team from any era

You cant do it period

and i forgot Iverson

Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, maybe 'Zo.
Malone, Barkley, Rodman, Kemp, maybe Bird.
'Nique, Mullen, Wilkens, Drexler, Miller
Stockton, Payton, Isaiah, Magic

You're guards are the only advantage and mainly at the 2 spot. 2010's 1 spot will overtake both/every previous decades when all is said and done.

I excluded Pippen & Jordan since we're talking about who they competed against.

I'm going to bed, this thread will probably be deleted before I read your response.

[oh the horror]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era


Howard, Ming, and Dirk would just get absolutely just abused.


Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley? Are you kidding? And im not even mentioning others....the 2000s have had some of the weakest big men of ANY era dude.


You gonna sit there, and throw around Dwight Howard? Dude, would have been PUNISHED by Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson ALL day.

[Ruh-Roh]

Howard, Ming, and Dirk would just get absolutely just abused.


Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley? Are you kidding? And im not even mentioning others....the 2000s have had some of the weakest big men of ANY era dude.


You gonna sit there, and throw around Dwight Howard? Dude, would have been PUNISHED by Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson ALL day.
:oldlol: Look up.^^^^

[EarlTheGoat]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era

The f*ck you saying child. You`re not even a troll, you just a kid who actually believes what he says, :lol .


But let me translate what you meant to say, just so nobody gets confused:

"Kobe`s competition > Jordan`s competition"


And I say:

:roll:

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming


this is pretty much the GOAT eraI think Rondo, Paul and Durant will be considered 2010 era not 2000 considering the played less than half the era.

[oh the horror]

And not only that, but Scottie Pippen would just beat up on a 22 year old Kevin Durant. Lets keep this shit real. :oldlol:

[oh the horror]

Could you guys even imagine a matchup between a PRIME GARY PAYTON, checking Steve Nash?

My god, that would be unfair. :oldlol:

[icewill36]

And not only that, but Scottie Pippen would just beat up on a 22 year old Kevin Durant. Lets keep this shit real. :oldlol:

ehhh i think KD could get his shot off against him at anytime because he has more size. who did pippen ever have to guard who had a similar size and skillset to KD ?

[MrJohnWall]

Howard, Ming, and Dirk would just get absolutely just abused.


Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley? Are you kidding? And im not even mentioning others....the 2000s have had some of the weakest big men of ANY era dude.


You gonna sit there, and throw around Dwight Howard? Dude, would have been PUNISHED by Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson ALL day.

Power Forward and PG position the 2000s have with ease

The centers i would give a slight edge to 90s. Even though no center in the 90s was dominant as Shaq

Hakeem would be facing Shaq... and believe me Howard would get the best of Ewing

The SF blowwwwwwwwwwwww the 90s out the water

Prime Tmac And prime Lebron are up and away better then any sf in the 90s

sg jordan>kobe but Wade>>>>>>>>>everyother SG with a bigger gap then the one with Kobe and Jordan

so please explain

[Ruh-Roh]

ehhh i think KD could get his shot off against him at anytime because he has more size. who did pippen ever have to guard who had a similar size and skillset to KD ?

Oh my f*cking god. Durant is the product of big men with no-post game trying to be wing-players, an exact replica wasn't around in the 90's. Just watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

[MrJohnWall]

Could you guys even imagine a matchup between a PRIME GARY PAYTON, checking Steve Nash?

My god, that would be unfair. :oldlol:


Could you imagine Barkely guarding Tim Duncan? :oldlol:

[Ruh-Roh]

Power Forward and PG position the 2000s have with ease

The centers i would give a slight edge to 90s. Even though no center in the 90s was dominant as Shaq

Hakeem would be facing Shaq... and believe me Howard would get the best of Ewing

The SF blowwwwwwwwwwwww the 90s out the water

Prime Tmac And prime Lebron are up and away better then any sf in the 90s

sg jordan>kobe but Wade>>>>>>>>>everyother SG with a bigger gap then the one with Kobe and Jordan

so please explain

Tmac had one or two elite seasons, you wanna put him against the longevity of the people I named, be my guest.

Half your PGs barely made a dent in the 2000's until the end of the decade. They don't belong on that list.

Howard couldn't even learn how to do Ewing from Ewing himself when Orlando hired him. You can't be serious.:facepalm

[MrJohnWall]

Tmac had one or two elite seasons, you wanna put him against the longevity of the people I named, be my guest.

Half your PGs barely made a dent in the 2000's until the end of the decade.

Howard couldn't even learn how to do Ewing from Ewing himself when Orlando hired him. You can't be serious.:facepalm
man were not talking better careers and smh @ tmac having one elite season

im saying take the best players prime years and have a 7 game series

steve nash, Jason kidd did nothing in the begging of the decade?:facepalm

end or begging its still in the decade

Howard doesnt even need to score on his own.

His defense, rebounding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[oh the horror]

Could you imagine Barkely guarding Tim Duncan? :oldlol:


Barkley was guarding all types of power forwards in his era dude. Dont let his little size fool you....dude was snatching up boards, and powering out BIGGER dudes for rebounds, and shots left and right. The guy was literally a gangster, and very tough to cover.

[Teanett]

ehhh i think KD could get his shot off against him at anytime because he has more size. who did pippen ever have to guard who had a similar size and skillset to KD ?

magic, bird, glenn robinson, cliff robinson, detlef schrempf, glen rice, anthony mason, grant hill...
barkley, danny manning, juwan howard, chris webber, larry johnson...

[LebronairJAMES]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era
:rolleyes:
:roll:

[oh the horror]

Power Forward and PG position the 2000s have with ease

The centers i would give a slight edge to 90s. Even though no center in the 90s was dominant as Shaq

Hakeem would be facing Shaq... and believe me Howard would get the best of Ewing

The SF blowwwwwwwwwwwww the 90s out the water

Prime Tmac And prime Lebron are up and away better then any sf in the 90s





Howard just simply would not get the best of Ewing. Patrick had an inside game, a post game, an outside game. Dude could pull jump hooks, and 15 foot jumpers for days. He had range, length, and could dribble for a man his side. He literally was killer in the post too. Dwight struggles even today with moderate big men, and has an extremely limited offensive arsenal at the moment. Mid-90s Patrick Ewing was the shit.


I'll give the 00s the edge in the SF dept. for the fact that Lebron is just that damn good.


And powerforwards is a hell of a toss up...there are good forwards today, but really....so many of them seem SO utterly limited in their post up games, that I wonder how they would fair against 90s bigs who mostly lived in the post...

I mean you have Dirk shooting fadeaways, and Amare literally playing zero defense...and we've seen how Pau Gasol plays against anyone that is physical with him

But then you have guys like Garnett, and Duncan whom would have done quite well. Im sure im forgetting people.

[Ruh-Roh]

man were not talking better careers and smh @ tmac having one elite season

im saying take the best players prime years and have a 7 game series

steve nash, Jason kidd did nothing in the begging of the decade?:facepalm

end or begging its still in the decade

Howard doesnt even need to score on his own.

His defense, rebounding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I said half your PGs, Jason and Steve are the ones I counted, dumbass.

I would even take 90's Shaq over Dwight before 2010. You do realize he's been getting coaching from both Ewing and Hakeem to improve his game? How can you discount them so easily.

How old are you?

[MrJohnWall]

Howard just simply would not get the best of Ewing. Patrick had an inside game, a post game, an outside game. Dude could pull jump hooks, and 15 foot jumpers for days. He had range, length, and could dribble for a man his side. He literally was killer in the post too. Dwight struggles even today with moderate big men, and has an extremely limited offensive arsenal at the moment. Mid-90s Patrick Ewing was the shit.


I'll give the 00s the edge in the SF dept. for the fact that Lebron is just that damn good.


And powerforwards is a hell of a toss up...there are good forwards today, but really....so many of them seem SO utterly limited in their post up games, that I wonder how they would fair against 90s bigs who mostly lived in the post...

I mean you have Dirk shooting fadeaways, and Amare literally playing zero defense...and we've seen how Pau Gasol plays against anyone that is physical with him

But then you have guys like Garnett, and Duncan whom would have done quite well. Im sure im forgetting people.

Im talking about a game between all 90 and all 00's, Pau and amare wouldnt make it

But Duncan Garnett> Barkely, Malone and thats common sense please dont try to deny that

Dwight is a better rebounder and much better defender, And his defensive presences is 2nd to none. He doesnt need to creat his won shots. When Lebron and Kobe are on his team

You got to add the fact that Barkely brings nothing to the table in a game like this.. Hes know to be a bad defender and is only 64 while Garnett are both 7 feet and can anchor a defensive team on there own

[LebronairJAMES]

Howard just simply would not get the best of Ewing. Patrick had an inside game, a post game, an outside game. Dude could pull jump hooks, and 15 foot jumpers for days. He had range, length, and could dribble for a man his side. He literally was killer in the post too. Dwight struggles even today with moderate big men, and has an extremely limited offensive arsenal at the moment. Mid-90s Patrick Ewing was the shit.


I'll give the 00s the edge in the SF dept. for the fact that Lebron is just that damn good.


And powerforwards is a hell of a toss up...there are good forwards today, but really....so many of them seem SO utterly limited in their post up games, that I wonder how they would fair against 90s bigs who mostly lived in the post...

I mean you have Dirk shooting fadeaways, and Amare literally playing zero defense...and we've seen how Pau Gasol plays against anyone that is physical with him

But then you have guys like Garnett, and Duncan whom would have done quite well. Im sure im forgetting people.
:applause:

[DJ Leon Smith]

His greatest rivalry was against the whole Detroit Pistons team in the late 1980s, they slapped the hell (literally) out of Chicago until Jordan and the Bulls matured, toughened up and finally figured out how to beat them, and he and the team came out the other side as tougher players.

But yeah you're right though, Jordan actually beat no one. He won everything in a weak era against nobodies and Kobe's '06 Lakers or even last season's Atlanta Hawks would sweep the 72-win Bulls in a seven game series.

This is a weak era for InsideHoops NBA forum threads.

[Ruh-Roh]

Dwight is a better rebounder
No. 90's best forwards could even do better than Dwight.

and much better defender,
No.

And his defensive presences is 2nd to none.
It's second to a lot of people. Didn't you already mention this?

He doesnt need to creat his won shots. When Lebron and Kobe are on his team
He wouldn't need to? He can't. Hakeem had one of the GOAT post games, Ewing was a monster on both ends and physically would handle Dwight with ease. There's hardly a size difference and right now Dwight has a physical advantage over most centers. Shaq was still Shaq, even if his 00's version is the one we'll remember most. Have I mentioned Finals MVP Robinson yet? No? Let me do that now.

Spell check your posts too.

[MrJohnWall]

I said half your PGs, Jason and Steve are the ones I counted, dumbass.

I would even take 90's Shaq over Dwight before 2010. You do realize he's been getting coaching from both Ewing and Hakeem to improve his game? How can you discount them so easily.

How old are you?
Ignorance

Dwights offensive skillset is irrelevant when hes playing with the guys i listed

his defesive presence and rebounding skills would make hakeem humble
(dwight cant guard him but team defense dwight>hakeem)

[MrJohnWall]

No.

No.

It's second to a lot of people. Didn't you already mention this?

He wouldn't need to? He can't. Hakeem had one of the GOAT post games, Ewing was a monster on both ends and physically would handle Dwight with ease. There's hardly a size difference and right now Dwight has a physical advantage over most centers. Shaq was still Shaq, even if his 00's version is the one we'll remember most. Have I mentioned Finals MVP Robinson yet? No? Let me do that now.


So now Ewing is a better defender and rebounder then Dwight?

okay now your trolling

keep it real before you end up on my ignore list

[Teanett]

So now Ewing is a better defender and rebounder then Dwight?



not now, you little monkey.
but a looooong time ago,
when your mommy and daddy were still in school.

[Ruh-Roh]

So now Ewing is a better defender and rebounder then Dwight?

okay now your trolling

keep it real before you end up on my ignore list

He averaged 9.8 boards and 2.4 blocks for his ENTIRE CAREER against the most stacked big-man decade of all time until he was 38. He's 7'0 240.

Dwight's averaged 12.6 boards and 2.1 blocks so far and is peaked/peaking soon against little paint-o-phobic fishies for centers @ 6'11 240. How can you not even think about this?

[MrJohnWall]

He averaged 9.8 boards and 2.4 blocks for his ENTIRE CAREER against the most stacked big-man decade of all time. He's 7'0 240.

Dwight's averaged 12.6 boards and 2.1 blocks so far and is peaked/peaking soon against little paint-o-phobic fishies for centers @ 6'11 240. How can you not even think about this?

lol Dwight himself is 6'11 and rebounding is far from a size thing ask barkely and rodman

after dwights rookie year each one of his 5 following seasons he has had better rebounding averages then Ewings Peaks number

so please. Even as a rookie Dwight averaged 10 boards lol

Please stop trying to drop bull sh*t ideas to make sense of Ewing being a worse rebounder

and how many teams have a big man under 6'11?lol

[dallaslonghorn]

But yeah you're right though, Jordan actually beat no one. He won everything in a weak era against nobodies and Kobe's '06 Lakers or even last season's Atlanta Hawks would sweep the 72-win Bulls in a seven game series.

[/COLOR]

Nice! I really liked last year's Hawks squad! Josh Smith ... Joe Johnson ... Al Horford ... that's a good bit of talent right there.

[DeronMillsap]

But yeah you're right though, Jordan actually beat no one. He won everything in a weak era against nobodies and Kobe's '06 Lakers or even last season's Atlanta Hawks would sweep the 72-win Bulls in a seven game series.

This is a weak era for InsideHoops NBA forum threads.
:wtf:

[Ruh-Roh]

lol Dwight himself is 6'11 and rebounding is far from a size thing ask barkely and rodman

after dwights rookie year each one of his 5 following seasons he has had better rebounding averages then Ewings Peaks number

so please. Even as a rookie Dwight averaged 10 boards lol

Please stop trying to drop bull sh*t ideas to make sense of Ewing being a worse rebounder

and how many teams have a big man under 6'11?lol

Why don't you ask Barkley and Rodman yourself since you weren't around to watch them. And I won't even point out that those two great rebounders would be on my all-decade team abusing Dwight on the glass you f*cking tool.

My point was that Dwight in this weak era of centers is a mismatch, and Ewing is almost his exact size, so that advantage goes away...in whatever offensive or defensive category you wish to make it a big deal about.

This is my last post. You're unbelievable.

[Fatal9]

He averaged 9.8 boards and 2.4 blocks for his ENTIRE CAREER against the most stacked big-man decade of all time until he was 38. He's 7'0 240.

Dwight's averaged 12.6 boards and 2.1 blocks so far and is peaked/peaking soon against little paint-o-phobic fishies for centers @ 6'11 240. How can you not even think about this?
Ewing is definitely not a better rebounder than Dwight. Not even close actually. The gap between their TRB% is pretty huge. I don't know how much better he is in terms of shot blocking. He averaged more blocks for a couple of years but there were more blocks in general back then. Perimeter players weren't taking as many shots from 15+ feet back then, and the average perimeter player is also more athletic now (helps avoid getting shot blocked). He is however a superior offensive player and that's why he's better.

[Teanett]

lol Dwight himself is 6'11 and rebounding is far from a size thing ask barkely and rodman

after dwights rookie year each one of his 5 following seasons he has had better rebounding averages then Ewings Peaks number

so please. Even as a rookie Dwight averaged 10 boards lol

Please stop trying to drop bull sh*t ideas to make sense of Ewing being a worse rebounder

and how many teams have a big man under 6'11?lol

you're english and comprehension skills still need refining, like howards
post game.
i think you got a little excited there, have someone check your diaper!

[MrJohnWall]

Ewing is definitely not a better rebounder than Dwight. Not even close actually. The gap between their TRB% is pretty huge. I don't know how much better he is in terms of shot blocking. He averaged more blocks for a couple of years but there were more blocks in general back then. Perimeter players weren't taking as many shots from 15+ feet back then, and the average perimeter player is also more athletic now (helps avoid getting shot blocked). He is however a superior offensive player and that's why he's better.
:applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: Thank You
People always go out there way to overrate Past players to sound knowledgable


Repped:cheers:

[DJ Leon Smith]

:wtf:

I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm or read the white text.

[Teanett]

Ewing is definitely not a better rebounder than Dwight. Not even close actually. The gap between their TRB% is pretty huge. I don't know how much better he is in terms of shot blocking. He averaged more blocks for a couple of years but there were more blocks in general back then. Perimeter players weren't taking as many shots from 15+ feet back then, and the average perimeter player is also more athletic now (helps avoid getting shot blocked). He is however a superior offensive player and that's why he's better.

ewing wasn't blocking perimeter players only.

[LebronairJAMES]

i like howard but i dont think i will ever see howard do the things ewing did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yozuhTvxKVo

[DeronMillsap]

I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm or read the white text.
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2mfg1hg.jpg

[Fatal9]

My point was that Dwight in this weak era of centers is a mismatch, and Ewing is almost his exact size, so that advantage goes away...in whatever offensive or defensive category you wish to make it a big deal about.
This doesn't really matter.

Dwight also has to deal with team defenses that would be illegal in the 90s. From zone, to getting doubled or shaded before the entry passes (guys sagging), to dealing with a help defender being BELOW the FT line (whereas in 90s the defender would have to be above the FT line or it'd be illegal D). That hurts a big man's offensive game way more than facing 4-5 great centers, there's a reason people have criticized the NBA for trying to kill the post game. Gives you less dribbles to make your moves, less space on isos, forces the ball out more easily and makes the entry itself more difficult. Even someone as good as Hakeem could be shut down by teams when they got away with illegal D, regardless of whether they had a great C or not (see '96 Sonics series). How much is it really going to change Dwight's stats if he faced D-Rob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem for about 10 games a season? Those guys were facing centers no better than Dwight is for 75% of their games. Lot of the time the great centers didn't want to guard each other due to foul trouble concerns anyways (especially the case in many of the D-Rob-Hakeem regular season matchups).

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

PG-Stockton/KJ/Payton
SG-Jordan/Dumars
SF-Pippen/Wilkens
PF-Barkley/Malone/Rodman
C-Olajuwon/Alonzo


A team of these 12 players from the 90's would just annihilate any possible team you could assemble from 2000's players.


Payton would lock up any PG from the 2000's you wouldn't even have to guard Jason Kidd... He would end up shooting under 30% without even being guarded. And Nash couldn't guard Stock, KJ or Payton if his life depended on it. Nash would be in double digit turnovers playing against this team, sh1t he turns the ball over 6-7 times a game going up against mediocre PG's.

Rodman would lock down Lebron and Duncan. Pippen could lock down Kobe or Lebron. MJ would lock down Kobe and then drop 40 on him. Payton would lock down any of the PG's from the 2000's and Hakeem and Mourning would slow Shaq diwn consideribly.


Difetence between the 2 teams is defense. MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Alonzo, and Payton are top 10 all time defenders... With MJ, Pippen and Rodman being considered top five all time greatest defenders.

[necya]

Lets be real 2000's >>>>>90's

Jason Kidd/Steve Nash/Chris Paul/ Rondo
Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade/
Lebron James/T-Mac/Melo/Durant/ Pierce
Tim Duncan/Garnett/Dirk
Shaq/Dwight Howard/Yao Ming

this is pretty much the GOAT era

your parents should forbid their son from any internet access

[97 bulls]

This doesn't really matter.

Dwight also has to deal with team defenses that would be illegal in the 90s. From zone, to getting doubled or shaded before the entry passes (guys sagging), to dealing with a help defender being BELOW the FT line (whereas in 90s the defender would have to be above the FT line or it'd be illegal D). That hurts a big man's offensive game way more than facing 4-5 great centers, there's a reason people have criticized the NBA for trying to kill the post game. Gives you less dribbles to make your moves, less space on isos, forces the ball out more easily and makes the entry itself more difficult. Even someone as good as Hakeem could be shut down by teams when they got away with illegal D, regardless of whether they had a great C or not (see '96 Sonics series). How much is it really going to change Dwight's stats if he faced D-Rob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem for about 10 games a season? Those guys were facing centers no better than Dwight is for 75% of their games. Lot of the time the great centers didn't want to guard each other due to foul trouble concerns anyways (especially the case in many of the D-Rob-Hakeem regular season matchups).I have to disagree with this post fatal. Sure the zone might hurt howard but that's cuz his offensive game is not polished. All of the great centers of the 90s had great mid-range shots in their game. And the centers as a whole were just flatout better than the centers now. And im tallking from 1 thru 30. Howard is at best the equivalent of alonzo mourning. And mourning in the 90s is probably ranked in the lower top 10.

The fact is that I could probably make a list of middle of the pack centers and they'd be ranked in the top 5 now. I mean the centers today are flatout bad.

[97 bulls]

Im also amazed at how little respect guys like drexler, miller, and richmond are getting. Don't you guys remember that the nba changed the rules to allow todays perimeter player to score easier? Put the 90s SG in todays league and you'd have to add 3 to 4 ppg to their avg.

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

Howard is at best the equivalent of alonzo mourning. And mourning in the 90s is probably ranked in the lower top 10. WTF? Alonzo being ranked that low? I think he was a top 5 Center in the 90's era. I'm curious to who you got ranked ahead of Zo.

[97 bulls]

WTF? Alonzo being ranked that low? I think he was a top 5 Center in the 90's era. I'm curious to who you got ranked ahead of Zo.
Shaq, olajuwan, robinson, ewing I think you're right.

[DeronMillsap]

Nice! I really liked last year's Hawks squad! Josh Smith ... Joe Johnson ... Al Horford ... that's a good bit of talent right there.
:facepalm :facepalm

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

Shaq, olajuwan, robinson, ewing I think you're right.

You could throw in Mutombo but I'd still rate Mouring ahead of him.


I bet Rony Seikaly and Rik Smits were be perennial all-stars in the 2000 Era.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't want to be struck by lightning from the basketball gods or anything, but .....

Everyone agrees that MJ never had a true rival -- no Wilt to his Russell, no Magic to his Bird, no Duncan to his Shaq. And for many people, this is one of the biggest signs of his dominance. But isn't it possible that it wasn't that MJ was THAT good but more that his competition wasn't all that impressive?

This is not a knock on him by any stretch ... but the only top 10 players he beat in the playoffs ... Magic/Kareem in '91 and Shaq in Orlando (but this was hardly prime Shaq, this was "Kazaam" Shaq :oldlol:)

He never played prime Shaq, never played prime Hakeem, never played prime Tim Duncan ... hell, he never even played prime Kobe :oldlol:

He beat a bunch of power forwards and point guards in the '92, '93 and '96-'98 Finals. None of whom are top 25 type dudes.

NBA fans from the '80's, how many titles would MJ's Bulls have won in the 80's? I really have no idea, just asking.

I didnt realize that Magic, Isiah, Barkley, Drexler, Shaq, Ewing, and Malone were not top 25 players. Silly me.

lol @ "never played prime Tim Duncan or Kobe" -- yeah, it's called "being born at a different time". Interesting concept - you should look into it. He never played prime Wilt either.

[Soundwave]

"Prime Kobe" has been beaten by the likes of the 2003 Spurs, 2004 Pistons, and the Phoenix Suns in the 1st round.

Duncan has gone out of the playoffs several times to teams like the Mavericks.

To suggest the prime-90s Bulls would some how not be able to beat these teams is a little funny.

I'm sure Jordan would've loved to have played Shaq, Eddie Jones, and Kobe in the Finals ... it's too bad they were getting their ass handed to them by the Utah Jazz back in those days (and it's not like Shaq was some fresh faced rookie back then).

Also note the Pistons beat the Celtics and Lakers. And the Bulls took them to 7 games in 1990 and then *destroyed* them in 1991. The notion that Magic was a has been in 1991 when he was a mere three years older than Jordan is laughable too.

[Psileas]

I'm sure Jordan would've loved to have played Shaq, Eddie Jones, and Kobe in the Finals ... it's too bad they were getting their ass handed to them by the Utah Jazz back in those days (and it's not like Shaq was some fresh faced rookie back then).

That was a 19-20 year old Kobe, nowhere near his prime self or his 2000-02 self, so this doesn't go along with the rest of your examples.

[Fatal9]

Im also amazed at how little respect guys like drexler, miller, and richmond are getting. Don't you guys remember that the nba changed the rules to allow todays perimeter player to score easier? Put the 90s SG in todays league and you'd have to add 3 to 4 ppg to their avg.
Um, no you can't. Especially for Drexler who is actually going to be hurt by the fact that teams can't play at the pace of his Blazer teams. His half court game was very inconsistent. Look at the dip his scoring took in the playoffs in general, and look at the dip his scoring/efficiency took as his teams slowed it down a little. Dude could literally have a 40 point game in the late 80s and score about 30 of those points on the fast break. He isn't breaking 25 ppg in the current era/pace unless his halfcourt game improves. Not sure how Reggie is averaging more points either. Is it more FTs? Because in the early 90s he shot more FTs/game than Kobe has in the last two years.

[Teanett]

Um, no you can't. Especially for Drexler who is actually going to be hurt by the fact that teams can't play at the pace of his Blazer teams. His half court game was very inconsistent. Look at the dip his scoring took in the playoffs in general, and look at the dip his scoring/efficiency took as his teams slowed it down a little. Dude could literally have a 40 point game in the late 80s and score about 30 of those points on the fast break. He isn't breaking 25 ppg in the current era/pace unless his halfcourt game improves. Not sure how Reggie is averaging more points either. Is it more FTs? Because in the early 90s he shot more FTs/game than Kobe has in the last two years.

hand check... hand check... hand check...

[kingkong]

How many good centers did Shaq beat in the 2000-2002 playoffs?

a 35 year old mutombo?

[Roundball_Rock]

People are missing the OP's point. No one wins championships by default so of course everyone has competition. The question is MJ's level of competition compared to that of other eras. The principal rival the Bulls had--according to MJ fans themselves (they took this view to diminish Pippen en masse in a thread a while ago by claiming the Knicks would have stopped Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Grant with Kukoc and Armstrong on the bench from winning rings :lol ) during their title years was the Ewing-led Knicks. :oldlol: That was a team led by a top 40 of all-time player and borderline all-star players like Charles Oakley and John Starks, a team that the Bulls without Jordan came within one foul call of defeating in 94'. What kind of competition is that??? Magic and Bird had each other and then the great Sixers and Pistons teams. Wilt and Russell had their teams and the the West/Baylor Lakers. Shaq had Duncan's Spurs. Jordan had the Ewing Knicks...

Michael Jordan went his entire career with only facing a top 10 of all-time player in the playoffs a handful of times. He played Bird twice (0-2), Magic once (1-0), and Shaq twice (1-1). All in all his record against top 10 of all-time players was 2-3. His rings generally were won against top 40 players like Drexler, Payton, or Ewing. People cite Malone and Barkley but these guys are not even top 15 all-time and the former is a noted choker. Barkley also was on a one hit wonder team due to his injury issues after 93'. People are acting as if Barkley had a contender perennially during his prime. Malone and Stockton (top 25) was legit competition--too bad Malone was a choker and Stockton also underperformed both times in the finals. In 98' Stockton averaged something like 10/3/8.

Timing worked perfectly for MJ. He showed up during the waning days of the Celtics and Showtime Lakers dynasties and then retired right before the rise of the Lakers and Spurs dynasties.

Should this be held against him? No, but level of competition has to be a factor in assessing a player's legacy--especially when his principal competitors for GOAT were winning rings in the 80's and 60's.

Lastly, over and over again it is said that a player like Ewing would be higher on the all-time list if MJ didn't exist. This is taking a too narrow view. You could say the same thing about a lot of players. Let's stick to Ewing. If Reggie Miller did not exist Ewing would be higher on all-time lists. Does this mean anything? Players lose. You could do the same thing for any era. Take Duncan out of the league. What does that do for Nash? How about Kobe? Without Kobe Pippen wins a 7th ring in Portland, Webber's Kings have a ring, the Spurs have a few more titles, and the KG Celtics have 2 rings, not 1. Dwight Howard also has a championship and is touted as an all-time great and argued as equal to Lebron instead of being denigrated by many for dominating a weak era for centers. It is funny how people act as if removing Jordan from the equation is the only removal that would have Back to the Future-like effect on history.

The notion of removing MJ also ignores actual history. Malone/Stockton lost something like 16 times in the West. They lost 3 WCF's. They were upset early in the playoffs several times. This was due to MJ? Jordan is why Ewing lost in 94' and missed the finger roll in 95'? Was it Jordan who led the Miami Heat to a comeback from being down 3-1 in the ECSF against Ewing's 57 win Knicks team, who some argue was the best Knicks team of the decade? The reason Malone and Ewing and their ilk lack rings is because they generally failed to rise to the occasion sufficiently to win rings when they had opportunities.

[Walker]

Um, no you can't. Especially for Drexler who is actually going to be hurt by the fact that teams can't play at the pace of his Blazer teams. His half court game was very inconsistent.
Phoenix says hi!


And I gotta laugh at the people trying to act like Barkley isn't one of the best players ever.
6'6" in shoes(barely), every season of his career averaging +10rpg besides his rookie year which equates to 15 years +10 and an absolute beast on offense while being guarded by guys a good 6 inches taller damn near every night.
Yeah he wasn't great at guarding PFs one on one....... DUH the dude is, again, at a stretch 6'6" but he was actually a great TEAM defender, pushing near 2 steals a game the majority of his career.
Show me one player, JUST ONE player that has done what he did at such a height disadvantage at his position and I'll agree he's not top 20 ever, pushing top 10...

[nycelt84]

I've seen different posters here make comments that players like Malone and Barkley are not top 15 or top 25 players or other such claims. Rather than saying that I would love to see their version of their top 25.

[dee-rose]

MJ is the first perimeter player to lead a team to the finals and win, without having a low post scorer to compliment him... he's still the only person to win without a low post scorer. Did I mention he did this in an era where GOAT centers were the norm to have on your team? Did I mention he did it 6 times?

MJ didn't just take an era away from a whole bunch of really good potential top ten players. He took an era away from a whole NBA position.
:bowdown:

[Teanett]

I've seen different posters here make comments that players like Malone and Barkley are not top 15 or top 25 players or other such claims. Rather than saying that I would love to see their version of their top 25.

they probably include john wall and blake griffin:D

[Walker]

I've seen different posters here make comments that players like Malone and Barkley are not top 15 or top 25 players or other such claims. Rather than saying that I would love to see their version of their top 25.
We know how that'll go, it'll be filled with players from the 2000's with afew old players mixed in cause they've read that those guys were awsome.
The guys that had to compete with Jordan were some of the greatest players EVER. I don't need to state them again, many have in this thread.
Just too many kids around that think they know shit when infact they wouldn't have a clue.

[LJJ]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

They weren't in their prime when MJ faced them? So about six years before that, they were in their prime right? But I guess they could face MJ then?

OH WAIT, they totally could, but failed to reach the finals.

So that means, that those teams MJ beat in the finals, like the Suns and the Blazer were just better than the "prime" Stockton-Malone team.

[Teanett]

We know how that'll go, it'll be filled with players from the 2000's with afew old players mixed in cause they've read that those guys were awsome.
The guys that had to compete with Jordan were some of the greatest players EVER. I don't need to state them again, many have in this thread.
Just too many kids around that think they know shit when infact they wouldn't have a clue.

i love it when such lists include kobe, shaq, duncan, garnett as well as lebron, chris paul, wade (but most likely no steve nash) and fill it up with bob cousy and george mikan.
:oldlol:

[porebo]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

And MJ was 34, so?

[eeeeeebro]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

Malone and stockton was a Great team i can assure you they = contenders in this time.

[Sarcastic]

MJ is the first perimeter player to lead a team to the finals and win, without having a low post scorer to compliment him... he's still the only person to win without a low post scorer. Did I mention he did this in an era where GOAT centers were the norm to have on your team? Did I mention he did it 6 times?

MJ didn't just take an era away from a whole bunch of really good potential top ten players. He took an era away from a whole NBA position.
:bowdown:


Detroit Pistons and Isiah Thomas says "Hi".

[dallaslonghorn]

I didnt realize that Magic, Isiah, Barkley, Drexler, Shaq, Ewing, and Malone were not top 25 players. Silly me.

lol @ "never played prime Tim Duncan or Kobe" -- yeah, it's called "being born at a different time". Interesting concept - you should look into it. He never played prime Wilt either.

That's kind of my point. It's not HIS FAULT he didn't play against a lot of great players/teams in the late 90's ... but he didn't.

So maybe he doesn't win as many titles if he plays in another era ... or maybe he wins 10 if he plays in the 60's ... but either way, maybe the # of championships won isn't the BEST measure of how good a player he was or was not, considering how many factors (teammates, competitors, era etc.) that come into play that are 100% out of the player's control.

[Nevaeh]

That's kind of my point. It's not HIS FAULT he didn't play against a lot of great players/teams in the late 90's ... but he didn't.

So maybe he doesn't win as many titles if he plays in another era ... or maybe he wins 10 if he plays in the 60's ... but either way, maybe the # of championships won isn't the BEST measure of how good a player he was or was not, considering how many factors (teammates, competitors, era etc.) that come into play that are 100% out of the player's control.

Ok, now things are just getting retarded. If an opposing team makes it to the Finals, that means they had to beat everyone else get there, which means they were GREAT because they made it to the Finals.

I don't know if MJ went on a rampage and started banging some of you guy's moms and you're pissed about it or what, but the fact is MJ was steamrolling the competition to the point where he WAS the league.

MJ had major chips on his shoulder that he needed to address for having to hear constantly how he'd never win a chip, never make his team better, never be on par with Bird, and Magic etc.

People act like it was a picnic going up against his peers at the time and that's simply not the case. His foes had plenty of fight in them, but MJ just wanted it MORE, that's all.

[Jan95]

The Greatness of Winners is shown as their opponents are forgotten.

[stephanieg]

Duncan Barkley H2H. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01) Duncan 4 MPG more, Duncan more assists, Barkley more boards.

This is the first time I've ever heard that Shaq wasn't in his prime during the '90s. He was already trailing off ever so slightly at the end of his LA tenure, and then right after the trade he started to go down noticably. He lit the Bulls up everytime he faced them. Even with Penny, Orlando just wasn't a good enough team in '96. Needed another star or better roleplayers. The Bulls were just way too deep. No shame.

Wade and Clyde are very similar players, except Wade would get abused by Jordan even more since he's smaller and weaker than Clyde. Drexler didn't generally get gifted 20 FTA/gm either. Maybe if he played today though.

[wpdougie2180]

Duncan Barkley H2H. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01) Duncan 4 MPG more, Duncan more assists, Barkley more boards.

This is the first time I've ever heard that Shaq wasn't in his prime during the '90s. He was already trailing off ever so slightly at the end of his LA tenure, and then right after the trade he started to go down noticably. He lit the Bulls up everytime he faced them. Even with Penny, Orlando just wasn't a good enough team in '96. Needed another star or better roleplayers. The Bulls were just way too deep. No shame.

Wade and Clyde are very similar players, except Wade would get abused by Jordan even more since he's smaller and weaker than Clyde. Drexler didn't generally get gifted 20 FTA/gm either. Maybe if he played today though.

Or how about the truth that Horace Grant missed games 2-4 and the Magic was forced to start Jon Koncak at PF. After they had beat the MJ-led Bulls the previous year.

[wpdougie2180]

People are missing the OP's point. No one wins championships by default so of course everyone has competition. The question is MJ's level of competition compared to that of other eras. The principal rival the Bulls had--according to MJ fans themselves (they took this view to diminish Pippen en masse in a thread a while ago by claiming the Knicks would have stopped Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Grant with Kukoc and Armstrong on the bench from winning rings :lol ) during their title years was the Ewing-led Knicks. :oldlol: That was a team led by a top 40 of all-time player and borderline all-star players like Charles Oakley and John Starks, a team that the Bulls without Jordan came within one foul call of defeating in 94'. What kind of competition is that??? Magic and Bird had each other and then the great Sixers and Pistons teams. Wilt and Russell had their teams and the the West/Baylor Lakers. Shaq had Duncan's Spurs. Jordan had the Ewing Knicks...

Michael Jordan went his entire career with only facing a top 10 of all-time player in the playoffs a handful of times. He played Bird twice (0-2), Magic once (1-0), and Shaq twice (1-1). All in all his record against top 10 of all-time players was 2-3. His rings generally were won against top 40 players like Drexler, Payton, or Ewing. People cite Malone and Barkley but these guys are not even top 15 all-time and the former is a noted choker. Barkley also was on a one hit wonder team due to his injury issues after 93'. People are acting as if Barkley had a contender perennially during his prime. Malone and Stockton (top 25) was legit competition--too bad Malone was a choker and Stockton also underperformed both times in the finals. In 98' Stockton averaged something like 10/3/8.

Timing worked perfectly for MJ. He showed up during the waning days of the Celtics and Showtime Lakers dynasties and then retired right before the rise of the Lakers and Spurs dynasties.

Should this be held against him? No, but level of competition has to be a factor in assessing a player's legacy--especially when his principal competitors for GOAT were winning rings in the 80's and 60's.

Lastly, over and over again it is said that a player like Ewing would be higher on the all-time list if MJ didn't exist. This is taking a too narrow view. You could say the same thing about a lot of players. Let's stick to Ewing. If Reggie Miller did not exist Ewing would be higher on all-time lists. Does this mean anything? Players lose. You could do the same thing for any era. Take Duncan out of the league. What does that do for Nash? How about Kobe? Without Kobe Pippen wins a 7th ring in Portland, Webber's Kings have a ring, the Spurs have a few more titles, and the KG Celtics have 2 rings, not 1. Dwight Howard also has a championship and is touted as an all-time great and argued as equal to Lebron instead of being denigrated by many for dominating a weak era for centers. It is funny how people act as if removing Jordan from the equation is the only removal that would have Back to the Future-like effect on history.

The notion of removing MJ also ignores actual history. Malone/Stockton lost something like 16 times in the West. They lost 3 WCF's. They were upset early in the playoffs several times. This was due to MJ? Jordan is why Ewing lost in 94' and missed the finger roll in 95'? Was it Jordan who led the Miami Heat to a comeback from being down 3-1 in the ECSF against Ewing's 57 win Knicks team, who some argue was the best Knicks team of the decade? The reason Malone and Ewing and their ilk lack rings is because they generally failed to rise to the occasion sufficiently to win rings when they had opportunities.

Exactly all those guys played more than 6 years correct so how can anybody say Jordan stopped them from winning maybe just maybe they wasn't good enough to win. Maybe he stopped some of there best chances at winning but he did not stop them from winning period. Hell Ewing, Miller, and Malone all made it to other Finals and still lost.

[wpdougie2180]

MJ is the first perimeter player to lead a team to the finals and win, without having a low post scorer to compliment him... he's still the only person to win without a low post scorer. Did I mention he did this in an era where GOAT centers were the norm to have on your team? Did I mention he did it 6 times?

MJ didn't just take an era away from a whole bunch of really good potential top ten players. He took an era away from a whole NBA position.
:bowdown:

Isiah's Pistons and Barry's Warriors's say hi.

[Sarcastic]

Or how about the truth that Horace Grant missed games 2-4 and the Magic was forced to start Jon Koncak at PF. After they had beat the MJ-led Bulls the previous year.

Jordan only played 17 games that year after coming back from playing baseball. The Magic didn't exactly beat the Bulls with Jordan in tip top shape.

[EricForman]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

This is one of the most absurd logic I've ever heard. You're talking like Jordan had it lucky because he didn't play Malone/Stockton in their prime? You make it sound like Jordan was much younger and hit his prime and took advantage of an aging Malone/Stockton?

They were in the league basically at the same time. They're about the same age.

So it's Jordan's fault Stock and Malone couldn't make it to the finals in say, 91 or 93, when they were "in their primes"?

[wpdougie2180]

Jordan only played 17 games that year after coming back from playing baseball. The Magic didn't exactly beat the Bulls with Jordan in tip top shape.

Sounds like an excuse to me, lets look at his numbers for that playoff run compared to the year before and the year after:

92-93: 35.1/6.7/6 47.5 FG %
94-95: 31.5/6.5/4.5 48.4 FG %
95/96: 30.7/4.9/4.1 45.9 FG %

He also avg. more steals and blocks in 94-95 the only thing anyone can point to is turnovers. The real reason the Bulls lost is because the didn't have a los post banger that year since Horace was playing for the Magic and Rodman hadn't got ther yet not some bogus story about Jordan not being in top shape.

[dallaslonghorn]

People are missing the OP's point. No one wins championships by default so of course everyone has competition. The question is MJ's level of competition compared to that of other eras. The principal rival the Bulls had--according to MJ fans themselves (they took this view to diminish Pippen en masse in a thread a while ago by claiming the Knicks would have stopped Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Grant with Kukoc and Armstrong on the bench from winning rings :lol ) during their title years was the Ewing-led Knicks. :oldlol: That was a team led by a top 40 of all-time player and borderline all-star players like Charles Oakley and John Starks, a team that the Bulls without Jordan came within one foul call of defeating in 94'. What kind of competition is that??? Magic and Bird had each other and then the great Sixers and Pistons teams. Wilt and Russell had their teams and the the West/Baylor Lakers. Shaq had Duncan's Spurs. Jordan had the Ewing Knicks...

Michael Jordan went his entire career with only facing a top 10 of all-time player in the playoffs a handful of times. He played Bird twice (0-2), Magic once (1-0), and Shaq twice (1-1). All in all his record against top 10 of all-time players was 2-3. His rings generally were won against top 40 players like Drexler, Payton, or Ewing. People cite Malone and Barkley but these guys are not even top 15 all-time and the former is a noted choker. Barkley also was on a one hit wonder team due to his injury issues after 93'. People are acting as if Barkley had a contender perennially during his prime. Malone and Stockton (top 25) was legit competition--too bad Malone was a choker and Stockton also underperformed both times in the finals. In 98' Stockton averaged something like 10/3/8.

Timing worked perfectly for MJ. He showed up during the waning days of the Celtics and Showtime Lakers dynasties and then retired right before the rise of the Lakers and Spurs dynasties.

Should this be held against him? No, but level of competition has to be a factor in assessing a player's legacy--especially when his principal competitors for GOAT were winning rings in the 80's and 60's.

Lastly, over and over again it is said that a player like Ewing would be higher on the all-time list if MJ didn't exist. This is taking a too narrow view. You could say the same thing about a lot of players. Let's stick to Ewing. If Reggie Miller did not exist Ewing would be higher on all-time lists. Does this mean anything? Players lose. You could do the same thing for any era. Take Duncan out of the league. What does that do for Nash? How about Kobe? Without Kobe Pippen wins a 7th ring in Portland, Webber's Kings have a ring, the Spurs have a few more titles, and the KG Celtics have 2 rings, not 1. Dwight Howard also has a championship and is touted as an all-time great and argued as equal to Lebron instead of being denigrated by many for dominating a weak era for centers. It is funny how people act as if removing Jordan from the equation is the only removal that would have Back to the Future-like effect on history.

The notion of removing MJ also ignores actual history. Malone/Stockton lost something like 16 times in the West. They lost 3 WCF's. They were upset early in the playoffs several times. This was due to MJ? Jordan is why Ewing lost in 94' and missed the finger roll in 95'? Was it Jordan who led the Miami Heat to a comeback from being down 3-1 in the ECSF against Ewing's 57 win Knicks team, who some argue was the best Knicks team of the decade? The reason Malone and Ewing and their ilk lack rings is because they generally failed to rise to the occasion sufficiently to win rings when they had opportunities.

Great post. This is what I was trying to say better then how I said it.

[crisoner]

People are missing the OP's point. No one wins championships by default so of course everyone has competition. The question is MJ's level of competition compared to that of other eras. The principal rival the Bulls had--according to MJ fans themselves (they took this view to diminish Pippen en masse in a thread a while ago by claiming the Knicks would have stopped Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Grant with Kukoc and Armstrong on the bench from winning rings :lol ) during their title years was the Ewing-led Knicks. :oldlol: That was a team led by a top 40 of all-time player and borderline all-star players like Charles Oakley and John Starks, a team that the Bulls without Jordan came within one foul call of defeating in 94'. What kind of competition is that??? Magic and Bird had each other and then the great Sixers and Pistons teams. Wilt and Russell had their teams and the the West/Baylor Lakers. Shaq had Duncan's Spurs. Jordan had the Ewing Knicks...

Michael Jordan went his entire career with only facing a top 10 of all-time player in the playoffs a handful of times. He played Bird twice (0-2), Magic once (1-0), and Shaq twice (1-1). All in all his record against top 10 of all-time players was 2-3. His rings generally were won against top 40 players like Drexler, Payton, or Ewing. People cite Malone and Barkley but these guys are not even top 15 all-time and the former is a noted choker. Barkley also was on a one hit wonder team due to his injury issues after 93'. People are acting as if Barkley had a contender perennially during his prime. Malone and Stockton (top 25) was legit competition--too bad Malone was a choker and Stockton also underperformed both times in the finals. In 98' Stockton averaged something like 10/3/8.

Timing worked perfectly for MJ. He showed up during the waning days of the Celtics and Showtime Lakers dynasties and then retired right before the rise of the Lakers and Spurs dynasties.

Should this be held against him? No, but level of competition has to be a factor in assessing a player's legacy--especially when his principal competitors for GOAT were winning rings in the 80's and 60's.

Lastly, over and over again it is said that a player like Ewing would be higher on the all-time list if MJ didn't exist. This is taking a too narrow view. You could say the same thing about a lot of players. Let's stick to Ewing. If Reggie Miller did not exist Ewing would be higher on all-time lists. Does this mean anything? Players lose. You could do the same thing for any era. Take Duncan out of the league. What does that do for Nash? How about Kobe? Without Kobe Pippen wins a 7th ring in Portland, Webber's Kings have a ring, the Spurs have a few more titles, and the KG Celtics have 2 rings, not 1. Dwight Howard also has a championship and is touted as an all-time great and argued as equal to Lebron instead of being denigrated by many for dominating a weak era for centers. It is funny how people act as if removing Jordan from the equation is the only removal that would have Back to the Future-like effect on history.

The notion of removing MJ also ignores actual history. Malone/Stockton lost something like 16 times in the West. They lost 3 WCF's. They were upset early in the playoffs several times. This was due to MJ? Jordan is why Ewing lost in 94' and missed the finger roll in 95'? Was it Jordan who led the Miami Heat to a comeback from being down 3-1 in the ECSF against Ewing's 57 win Knicks team, who some argue was the best Knicks team of the decade? The reason Malone and Ewing and their ilk lack rings is because they generally failed to rise to the occasion sufficiently to win rings when they had opportunities.

Wow great post...

I always said Jordan's era of comp was weak compared to others.
But all Jordan fans do not get mad at this he is still the GOAT regardless.

[dallaslonghorn]

Wow great post...

I always said Jordan's era of comp was weak compared to others.
But all Jordan fans do not get mad at this he is still the GOAT regardless.

If definitely makes you think ... replace Jordan's Bulls with the Magic/Kareem Lakers in the 90's ... and how do the legacies of those players change?

[crisoner]

If definitely makes you think ... replace Jordan's Bulls with the Magic/Kareem Lakers in the 90's ... and how do the legacies of those players change?

Hmmmm great point.

Honestly I don't know if Jordan's Bulls team (1a or 1b) would fair as well back then as the Lakers. Then again you have to put in to the fact that the Lakers back then had the luxury of playing in the weaker West. The East was crazy with the Cetlics, Pistons, and Sixers.

[Nevaeh]

Wow great post...

I always said Jordan's era of comp was weak compared to others.
But all Jordan fans do not get mad at this he is still the GOAT regardless.

Funny how every Great player's era becomes "weak" after 10-20 years :rolleyes:

Look how the 70's gets slammed on these boards, and lets not get started on Wilt and his "Washington Generals" level of comp back in the day.

Jordan couldn't pick the players he went up against. He dealt the hand that was given him and excelled above his contemporaries, just like every other Legend has done.

[dallaslonghorn]

Funny how every Great player's era becomes "weak" after 10-20 years :rolleyes:

Look how the 70's gets slammed on these boards, and lets not get started on Wilt and his "Washington Generals" level of comp back in the day.

Jordan couldn't pick the players he went up against. He dealt the hand that was given him and excelled above his contemporaries, just like every other Legend has done.

Maybe that's why we should rank players all-time on their actual ability on the basketball court (which they can't control) and not on how many championships they won and who they played against and with (which they largely can not).

[crisoner]

Funny how every Great player's era becomes "weak" after 10-20 years :rolleyes:

Look how the 70's gets slammed on these boards, and lets not get started on Wilt and his "Washington Generals" level of comp back in the day.

Jordan couldn't pick the players he went up against. He dealt the hand that was given him and excelled above his contemporaries, just like every other Legend has done.

Yes WEAK. I watched both decades the 80's and 90's and the 90's were weaker.
I'm giving the 80's props so I guess that kills your argument.

[Sarcastic]

Sounds like an excuse to me, lets look at his numbers for that playoff run compared to the year before and the year after:

92-93: 35.1/6.7/6 47.5 FG %
94-95: 31.5/6.5/4.5 48.4 FG %
95/96: 30.7/4.9/4.1 45.9 FG %

He also avg. more steals and blocks in 94-95 the only thing anyone can point to is turnovers. The real reason the Bulls lost is because the didn't have a los post banger that year since Horace was playing for the Magic and Rodman hadn't got ther yet not some bogus story about Jordan not being in top shape.

Look at his regular season stats. That 31.5 ppg is against only the Hornets and Magic. He was not the same player that he was before. Just watching his games you could see how rusty he was.

[Nevaeh]

Yes WEAK. I watched both decades the 80's and 90's and the 90's were weaker.
I'm giving the 80's props so I guess that kills your argument.

Oh really? Well I happen to have a few games from the 80s on tape and I seem to recall a lot of run shoot score, inbound ball- run shoot score again. No real defensive pressure for the most part. Fun to watch though I must say if you love points.

[catch24]

People talk about Jordan lucking out playing the Lakers after Kareem retired; the Celtics when Bird was heavily injured, or beating Isiah's Pistons when they were over the hill - Let me ask ISH, during the late 80's, were Jordan's Bulls GOOD enough to beat those stacked teams? Which is why dudes on here should start using common sense when ranking eras, specifically supporting casts and help for that team(s). Had those 90's Bulls (specifically the '92 and '96 squads) went up against the '85 Lakers or '86/87 Celtics, I don't think it's all that far fetched to believe the Bulls COULD win those series.

[andgar923]

MJ was KILLING the 80s on an individual basis, and taking it to theses great teams with a much inferior cast.

And if I remember correctly, I think MJ had a winning record against the 80s Showtime Lakers. Not sure what his record was against the Celtics or Pistons, but I can guarantee that the Bulls didn't lose because MJ wasn't good enough.

[catch24]

Some of these posts are hilarious.

People claiming that MJ didn't beat certain players in their prime, yet have the nerve to state that the Bulls lost to some of these teams when they weren't in their prime.

Ironic aint it.

Exactly. Same hypocritical bullshit that's been spewed for years; too bad it's been carved and debunked already.

Why couldn't Shaq beat Hakeem or separate himself from all other Centers in the 90's? Gee, that's tough.

[scm5]

Duncan? Sure. KG? Debateable, but I could see it (depending teams). Dirk? GTFO

This...

[Ne 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

[StillKill24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0
:applause:

[wakencdukest]

He didn't have much competition in the east, but faced some great western conference teams and killed them. If there was no Jordan it's arguable that the Western conference would have 6 more championships under it's belt.

[wpdougie2180]

Look at his regular season stats. That 31.5 ppg is against only the Hornets and Magic. He was not the same player that he was before. Just watching his games you could see how rusty he was.

Like I said an excuse, he avg. more pts, ast, rbs, stls, blocks and shot a higher FG% that year compared to the next year but i'm supposed to believe that he wasn't Michael Jordan because of a self imposed retirement. okay. And I did watch the games when they happened no other player gets an excuse when they lose u either win or lose at the end of the day if you played u played.

Also if give that excuse to Jordan than you have to give every player in history that excuse like:

Bynum and Ariza in '08,KG, Allen and Perkins in '10, Nelson in 09, D Wade in 05, Wilt coming back from a season ending in the 70s, Russell missing game 7 in the only Finals they lost, Worthy, McAdoo, and Nixon missing games in 83 Finals, KG in 09 or Malone in '04 and the list goes on and on.

See how ridiculous it gets when u start trotting out excuses for why teams lost. And all those guys were injured what legit excuse does jordan have? They just lost it's ok everyone loses sometimes.

[97 bulls]

This whole thread is insane. I've never seen a team (the bulls) and 2 players (jordan and pippen) get such a double standard.

Like with jordan which one is it? I hear people knocking jordan cuz he didn't beat the 80s celtics and lakers or even the pistons. When you respond that jordan didn't have a team capable of beating them, they say its an excuse. But when he beat magic and the pistons, then that doesn't count cuz magic didn't have kareem and cooper. And the win against the pistons doesn't count cuz thomas didn't play the whole season, even though he was healthy in the playoffs. And the pistons were the reigning champs and the lakers had magic who was the reigning mvp. And its not even like it was a close series. The bulls beat those teams 4-1 and 4-0. I mean, what the hell.

And in pippens case, jordan abruptly retires and he leads the team to 55 wins and to a game 7 loss vs the eventual eastern conference champs. And yet he's not a leader? In order to be a leader, he must win a championship and lead the league in scoring. Just dumb. Or that he couldn't take over games. But when game 5 of the 91 finals (the close out game) or game 6 of the 92 finals (the close out game) or game 7 of the 98 ecf is brought up, those don't matter.

Or the bulls as a team. How rediculous is it that in essence, what these guys are saying is that had the bulls LOST a few of these championships, they'd be better. It just makes you wanna pull your hair out.
Its a blatant friggn double standard. Id have more respect for some of these guys if they'd just admit they're haters.

[97 bulls]

You could throw in Mutombo but I'd still rate Mouring ahead of him.


I bet Rony Seikaly and Rik Smits were be perennial all-stars in the 2000 Era.
No your right id put mourning at 5

[Nevaeh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

Bob Costas's punk @ss always had it in for the Bulls. You could tell by how he was calling games during the 97-98 season with Doug Collins and Isiah Thomas. He especially targeted Rodman for whatever reason. Anyway, the 96-98 Bulls weren't Nearly as stacked as the Lakers and Celtics were in the 80s, lets be real.

You had MJ, Pip and Rodman (who rarely scored btw) and a bunch of role-players. The only thing that made them so dominant was that they had more heart than the other teams.

Oh, and wasn't MJ out of his prime during the 96 season at age 33? Rodman at age 35 as well? So to me this fact levels things out a bit for people popping their gums about some "unfair advantage" that the Bulls may have had.

[FF1]

This thread is funny. MJ is the reason lots of greats don't have rings.

[97 bulls]

People are missing the OP's point. No one wins championships by default so of course everyone has competition. The question is MJ's level of competition compared to that of other eras. The principal rival the Bulls had--according to MJ fans themselves (they took this view to diminish Pippen en masse in a thread a while ago by claiming the Knicks would have stopped Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Grant with Kukoc and Armstrong on the bench from winning rings :lol ) during their title years was the Ewing-led Knicks. :oldlol: That was a team led by a top 40 of all-time player and borderline all-star players like Charles Oakley and John Starks, a team that the Bulls without Jordan came within one foul call of defeating in 94'. What kind of competition is that??? Magic and Bird had each other and then the great Sixers and Pistons teams. Wilt and Russell had their teams and the the West/Baylor Lakers. Shaq had Duncan's Spurs. Jordan had the Ewing Knicks...

Michael Jordan went his entire career with only facing a top 10 of all-time player in the playoffs a handful of times. He played Bird twice (0-2), Magic once (1-0), and Shaq twice (1-1). All in all his record against top 10 of all-time players was 2-3. His rings generally were won against top 40 players like Drexler, Payton, or Ewing. People cite Malone and Barkley but these guys are not even top 15 all-time and the former is a noted choker. Barkley also was on a one hit wonder team due to his injury issues after 93'. People are acting as if Barkley had a contender perennially during his prime. Malone and Stockton (top 25) was legit competition--too bad Malone was a choker and Stockton also underperformed both times in the finals. In 98' Stockton averaged something like 10/3/8.

Timing worked perfectly for MJ. He showed up during the waning days of the Celtics and Showtime Lakers dynasties and then retired right before the rise of the Lakers and Spurs dynasties.

Should this be held against him? No, but level of competition has to be a factor in assessing a player's legacy--especially when his principal competitors for GOAT were winning rings in the 80's and 60's.

Lastly, over and over again it is said that a player like Ewing would be higher on the all-time list if MJ didn't exist. This is taking a too narrow view. You could say the same thing about a lot of players. Let's stick to Ewing. If Reggie Miller did not exist Ewing would be higher on all-time lists. Does this mean anything? Players lose. You could do the same thing for any era. Take Duncan out of the league. What does that do for Nash? How about Kobe? Without Kobe Pippen wins a 7th ring in Portland, Webber's Kings have a ring, the Spurs have a few more titles, and the KG Celtics have 2 rings, not 1. Dwight Howard also has a championship and is touted as an all-time great and argued as equal to Lebron instead of being denigrated by many for dominating a weak era for centers. It is funny how people act as if removing Jordan from the equation is the only removal that would have Back to the Future-like effect on history.

The notion of removing MJ also ignores actual history. Malone/Stockton lost something like 16 times in the West. They lost 3 WCF's. They were upset early in the playoffs several times. This was due to MJ? Jordan is why Ewing lost in 94' and missed the finger roll in 95'? Was it Jordan who led the Miami Heat to a comeback from being down 3-1 in the ECSF against Ewing's 57 win Knicks team, who some argue was the best Knicks team of the decade? The reason Malone and Ewing and their ilk lack rings is because they generally failed to rise to the occasion sufficiently to win rings when they had opportunities.
More nonsense. The OP is questioning jordans championships. So its obvious that if the bulls were not the bulls as we know them, malone has rings, as well as barkley etc. If we go by your logic. Then jordan beat shaq who eventually won 3 rings, drexler, who won a championship in 94, along with magic, and thomas. You can also throw in malon and stockton since they beat olajuwan who won two championship and they shaqs lakers. That's 5 all time greats with one 2 of them (magic and shaq) being in the top 10. Another double standard.

[crisoner]

More nonsense. The OP is questioning jordans championships. So its obvious that if the bulls were not the bulls as we know them, malone has rings, as well as barkley etc. If we go by your logic. Then jordan beat shaq who eventually won 3 rings, drexler, who won a championship in 94, along with magic, and thomas. You can also throw in malon and stockton since they beat olajuwan who won two championship and they shaqs lakers. That's 5 all time greats with one 2 of them (magic and shaq) being in the top 10. Another double standard.

Agree to disagree

/Thread

[FF1]

If MJ didn't exist, Malone would have 2+ rings and would be considered a top 10. The whole "he didn't beat any top 10 players" argument doesn't make sense (to me at least, no offense intended) because MJ PREVENTED people from getting rings and climbing the ranks. He stopped Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Miller, etc from getting rings.

[97 bulls]

Agree to disagree

/Thread
Hold on, don't run now, is there a double standard when it comes to the bulls in general?

[FF1]

Lets say the Heat go off for 6 championships in a row and prevent Durant, Rose, Dwight, Dirk and a bunch of others from getting championships. Does that mean that those players, without championships, aren't worthy opponents and LeBron's legacy is tarnished because he doesn't beat anyone legit? It's almost like MJ is getting punished for not letting anyone win.

[Psileas]

MJ is the first perimeter player to lead a team to the finals and win, without having a low post scorer to compliment him... he's still the only person to win without a low post scorer. Did I mention he did this in an era where GOAT centers were the norm to have on your team? Did I mention he did it 6 times?

MJ didn't just take an era away from a whole bunch of really good potential top ten players. He took an era away from a whole NBA position.

Like others said, Barry, Isiah (and Magic, I should add) say hi.
As for GOAT centers being the norm, how many of the Western finalists had a great center? Divac and Duckworth were the best of them all. Great centers did exist, but some of them weren't playing for the best teams. Hakeem's teammates sucked for a big part of his career and, ironically, he got the best ones when he started fading visibly. Robinson's teammates? You'll struggle to name some good ones, especially in '96, when Rodman left. Ewing had some nice, tough teammates, but you wouldn't really call some of them talented or highly impactful (for example, take '89-'92 Starks or early 90's Gerald Wilkins and remove their "badassedness", and you get 2 players with still good defense, but not really impactful offense - not surprisingly, offense was not exactly the biggest weapon for those Knicks, especially when Ewing was not on a good day. Shaq and Zo had better luck those days. Shaq was 1-1 vs Jordan, Zo was 0-2, but Zo was the #4-5 best center in the league.

[andgar923]

This thread has gone like this:

Anti MJ: Jordan never beat anybody in the top 20
Pro MJ: Sure he has, Magic, Zeke, Charles, Malone, Stockton

Anti MJ: Charles isn't top 20 and neither is Isiah or Malone.
Pro MJ: Why not? please name who you believe are?

Anti MJ: Besides, even if he did beat them, they weren't in their prime.
Pro MJ: They were the champs that season (in Detroit's instance) and the Lakers were still a great team.

Anti MJ: But Magic was past his prime and old and so were the Pistons.
Pro MJ: Magic wasn't that much past his prime (if at all), and again... the Pistons were the reigning champs!

Anti MJ: But they weren't in their prime! MJ never beat those teams in their prime.
Pro MJ: But MJ's teams weren't in their prime during that time either, I don't get your argument? You're saying that MJ didn't beat them in their prime so his legacy is tarnished, yet the Bulls weren't in their prime either, but they still took some of those great teams to the limit... I don't get your argument? :confusedshrug:

Anti MJ: Kobe is better
Pro MJ: What the hell?

Anti MJ: Today's era is better, Kobe won in this era so he's better.
Pro MJ: What the hell?

Anti MJ: I can't stand you Jordan Hanes wearing ******gers! You guys believe MJ is a god, but he's not! he just isn't!!!
Pro MJ: What the hell? what does Kobe have anything to do with this?

Anti MJ: MJ never faced the tough competition from the 80s in their prime or the 00s in their prime.
Pro MJ: Yes he did, and he did well considering his team's infancy. As an individual he did very well for himself.
Anti MJ: But the 80s sucked!
Pro MJ: Huh?

Anti MJ: MJ also never faced Duncan, KG, Bron, Wade etc.etc.
Pro MJ: And Kobe lost to an old Stockton and Malone, I don't get your point?

Anti MJ: But Kobe was young.
Pro MJ: That's what I said about MJ in the 80s, so what's your point?

Anti MJ: Today's players are better, MJ would never be as good in this era LOL!!!
Pro MJ: But MJ played against most of today's current players as a Wizard and he did more than well, even tho he was injured and past his prime.

Anti MJ: His stats sucked and he didn't even make the playoffs.... haha!!
Pro MJ: His stats were almost as identical as Kobe's, and he improved them by 18 wins even tho he was hurt and didn't play the entire season :confusedshrug:

Anti MJ: You Jordan ******gers are pathetic!
Pro MJ: Huh?

[StillKill24]

This thread is funny. MJ is the reason lots of greats don't have rings.
not the bulls? :rolleyes:

[FF1]

not the bulls? :rolleyes:

I must have missed the years where the bulls won without MJ.

[StillKill24]

I must have missed the years where the bulls won without MJ.
you're right. i guess it was all jordan then. :applause: :bowdown:

[Nevaeh]

I must have missed the years where the bulls won without MJ.

Not to mention the thread being titled "Who Did MJ Actually Beat?":rolleyes:

[FF1]

Not to mention the thread being titled "Who Did MJ Actually Beat?":rolleyes:

Right. My mistake for flowing with the thread convo.

[Psileas]

I must have missed the years where the bulls won without MJ.

What about the years MJ won without the Bulls?

[wpdougie2180]

If MJ didn't exist, Malone would have 2+ rings and would be considered a top 10. The whole "he didn't beat any top 10 players" argument doesn't make sense (to me at least, no offense intended) because MJ PREVENTED people from getting rings and climbing the ranks. He stopped Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Miller, etc from getting rings.

You can't say that for sure, say for instance the Bulls lose game 7 to the Pacers in 98 either Miller or Malone gets a ring but not both or Ewing beats the Bulls and faces the Suns either Ewing or Barkley gets a ring but not both. Here's a question is KG in anyone's Top 10 he has the stats and the Ring but no one puts him in the Top 10. It takes more than just 1 ring unless your Oscar Robertson or Jerry West. Or how about everyone of the guys u named continued to play after Jordan retired Twice and still didn't win a Ring.

[FF1]

What about the years MJ won without the Bulls?

Oh come on. I think we can agree that they are pretty interchangeable. I obviously don't think MJ could win a championship 1vs5 so I'm sorry everyone is getting caught up in my word choice (I was using the word choice in the thread title to keep with the discussion.)

If it's a huge deal I'll retype it. I think it's unfair to discredit the BULLS championships because they didn't beat a lot of winners... but they're the reason a lot of those greats never won, so it's not really a great reason to discredit them (Malone would be a top 10 great with 2 rings.. which he prob would have won if Bulls weren't there. That's my point).

It's hard to beat other winners when you won't let anyone win.

[FF1]

You can't say that for sure, say for instance the Bulls lose game 7 to the Pacers in 98 either Miller or Malone gets a ring but not both or Ewing beats the Bulls and faces the Suns either Ewing or Barkley gets a ring but not both. Here's a question is KG in anyone's Top 10 he has the stats and the Ring but no one puts him in the Top 10. It takes more than just 1 ring unless your Oscar Robertson or Jerry West. Or how about everyone of the guys u named continued to play after Jordan retired and still didn't win a Ring.

What I'm saying is that it's unfair to discredit MJs championships against non-winners because they didn't let anyone else win! It's not MJs fault that the Rockets never made the finals again. Should they have let the Jazz win a couple before he beat them to make it worth more?

I think we agree that the championship teams would have looked way different if the Bulls never won... the all-time great list would look different too. MJ and the Bulls just went out there and won and I just can't discredit that because they dominated and wouldn't let anyone else win.

________

Lets say Magic dominated and never let Bird win. Magic (and the Lakers) wins more, Bird (and the Celtics) doesn't win any.... does that mean that Magics championships are worth less because he didn't win against a (Winner) Bird.. rather, he won against a (Loser) Bird? Bird wouldn't be considered anywhere NEAR where is now if he didn't win... and neither would McHale or anyone else. I'm just unable to follow the logic that the more Magic dominates, the less respect he deserves for his wins.

[BlueandGold]

Not sure if serious...

but

Magic Johnson
James Worthy
Michael Cooper
Pistons
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Cleveland Cavaliers
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Utah Jazz

[crisoner]

Hold on, don't run now, is there a double standard when it comes to the bulls in general?

Not running at all. You will not budge from what you believe in and I will not as well. No double standards here. It is my opinion as well as many other the the 80's comp > the 90's. I watched both decades...not saying the Bulls back then are a bad team and Jordan is not the GOAT.

Sorry but you take the Malone and Stockton Jazz....The Ewing Knicks...The Payton and Kemp Sonics...the Drexler Blazers....The Barkley and KJ Suns...and of those teams would not win in the 80's.

They are nothing compared to the prime Bad Boy Pistons which owned Jordan.
Not better the Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers. Not better the the Dr. J and Moses Malone Sixers. Heck even the Dream and Sampson (OG Twin Tower) Rockets.

Those teams through out the 80's had to compete against each other. All those teams where great.

[wpdougie2180]

What I'm saying is that it's unfair to discredit MJs championships against non-winners because they didn't let anyone else win! It's not MJs fault that the Rockets never made the finals again. Should they have let the Jazz win a couple before he beat them to make it worth more?

I think we agree that the championship teams would have looked way different if the Bulls never won... the all-time great list would look different too. MJ and the Bulls just went out there and won and I just can't discredit that because they dominated and wouldn't let anyone else win.

While I agree with it in principle but not in real life. Let's take the 60s for an example any one that knows about basketball never says it was a weak era despite Russell winning all the Championships. Which one of the players mentioned earlier do you rank higher than Wilt, Baylor, West, and Robertson despite winning a combined 4 titles with Wilt and West winning 1 together. It's not to bash Jordan and for the record I don't even like Kobe or Lebron sometimes you just call a spade a spade.

[chips93]

other teams look worse because jordan was so dominant

[crisoner]

Not sure if serious...

but

Magic Johnson
James Worthy
Michael Cooper
Pistons
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Cleveland Cavaliers
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Utah Jazz

He was hurt in that Finals series if I recall.

[FF1]

other teams look worse because jordan was so dominant

This is my point in a nutshell. (And other players legacies look worse as well).

Like I said, if Magic sweeps Bird every year.. all of a sudden Bird isn't an all time great and then all of a sudden Magic never beat anyone legit.

[crisoner]

other teams look worse because jordan was so dominant

:facepalm

How old are you guys?

[Psileas]

Not sure if serious...

but

Magic Johnson
James Worthy
Michael Cooper
Pistons
Patrick Ewing
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Cleveland Cavaliers
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Utah Jazz

Not Cooper. He retired in 1990. Of course, he wasn't a star player, but his defensive impact, along with his shot and his playmaking ability, when Magic was resting, were missed for this L.A team.

[StillKill24]

other teams look worse because jordan was so dominant
negged

[FF1]

negged

umm why? If the Bulls don't win those 6 championships, don't those 6 championships go to other teams? Doesn't that, in turn, make those other teams look better?

[chips93]

negged



great point


well articulated, thanks for bring your opinion, it was appreciated

[alenleomessi]

If there wasnt Jordan, Hakeem and Drexler would have been GOATs at their positions

[StillKill24]

If Hakeem had the team that jordan had he would have been GOAT
fixed.

[crisoner]

If there wasnt Jordan, Hakeem and Drexler would have been GOATs at their positions


LOL

So Hakeem is not a GOAT center?

WTF?

[chips93]

LOL

So Hakeem is not a GOAT center?

WTF?


i assume he means GOAT(greatest of all time, singular)

[FF1]

LOL

So Hakeem is not a GOAT center?

WTF?

I'm sure he is on a lot of peoples list... Personally, I have him 4th or 5th.

[Psileas]

If there wasnt Jordan, Hakeem and Drexler would have been GOATs at their positions

Jordan had no impact in Hakeem's legacy, and he still isn't the GOAT center. Neither would Drexler be the GOAT SG, even with the '92 title (not sure they'd beat the Knicks, BTW). Kobe and West would still rank ahead of him.

[magnax1]

I think one of the most under rated teams is the 97 Heat. Peak Tim Hardaway, and prime Mourning, and some really good role players. I'd like to see how this team would do in today's league.

[Micku]

The list of star players MJ beat in his championships run:

Isiah Thomas - Rodman (DPOY)
Magic Johnson
Clyde Dexter
Mark Price (Good guard and the Cavs, good team)
Barkley - Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton (DPOY) - Kemp
Dikembe Mutombo (DPOY)
Patrick Ewing - John Stocks
Karl Malone-John Stockton
Reggie Miller
Shaq-Penny
Mourning-Hardaway


Very good players in their prime. Very respectable (by some ppl not remembering them or how good they were I see). Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Payton, Stockton would've been looked at much differently if they would've won.

Of course there are other players in the 90s that Jordan didn't face in the playoffs, which means that they also didn't face him.

David Robinson
Hakeem
Chris Mullin (He didn't face him in his prime, faced him later)
Grant Hill (Prime Hill, would be fun, but he wouldn't beat the Bulls)

As for as the Hakeem situation, it depends. Had Hakeem beat Jordan (if he didn't retired), it would've bump his legacy up I think. Because Jordan was at his peak in the early 90s. Most popular athletic, consider to be GOAT, no one could beat him and etc. If Hakeem would've beat him then it would've been a great upset.

However, if Hakeem would've lose like Barkley, Ewing, Malone and other greats then he would be just like them. Great player, but couldn't win a ring because he was overshadow by Jordan and the Bulls.

The 90s was big men era though. Good teams too.

[alenleomessi]

LOL

So Hakeem is not a GOAT center?

WTF?
Wilt, Kareem, Russell and even Shaq are better :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Not running at all. You will not budge from what you believe in and I will not as well. No double standards here. It is my opinion as well as many other the the 80's comp > the 90's. I watched both decades...not saying the Bulls back then are a bad team and Jordan is not the GOAT.

Sorry but you take the Malone and Stockton Jazz....The Ewing Knicks...The Payton and Kemp Sonics...the Drexler Blazers....The Barkley and KJ Suns...and of those teams would not win in the 80's.

They are nothing compared to the prime Bad Boy Pistons which owned Jordan.
Not better the Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers. Not better the the Dr. J and Moses Malone Sixers. Heck even the Dream and Sampson (OG Twin Tower) Rockets.

Those teams through out the 80's had to compete against each other. All those teams where great.
Ewings knicks, payton/kemp the blazers, they didn't win in the 90s either. And I know that in the late 80s the blazers were considered the most talented team in the nba. But were young and inexperienced.

Then you bring up the pistons beating the bulls in the late 80s. Now im sure that the minute I come back with the bulls beat them too, your reply is gonna be that the pistons were old and hurt. Even though they all were present and their avg age for the core players was 29. And if your playing that game, the bulls, even jordan, were young and inexperienced. Why don't the pistons get knocked for not beating the prime celtics or the lakers at full strength. The pistons beat a magic and scott less laker team and the very same blazer team that the bulls beat, except in 92, they were more experienced.

Please show me how that's not a double standard?

[magnax1]

Really, I have to say the 90's are probably the peak of NBA power, so this thread is sort of silly. There were about 5 guys who were as good in their peaks guys in the 10-20 range or higher on the all time list. Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, Drexler, Malone, and Magic would all be better then anybody not named Bryant, Wade or Lebron today.

[andgar923]

Jordan had no impact in Hakeem's legacy, and he still isn't the GOAT center. Neither would Drexler be the GOAT SG, even with the '92 title (not sure they'd beat the Knicks, BTW). Kobe and West would still rank ahead of him.
I think you missed his point.

If MJ doesn't exist this gives Hakeem a chance at 2 more rings and Drexler isn't overshadowed by MJ and perhaps wins as well.

Hakeem is already ranked as a top 5 Center of all time by many/most, with some even ranking him as the GOAT center. You mean to say that if he doesn't win 2 or more rings he won't be ranked as the GOAT center?

And as I mentioned before, if MJ doesn't exist this also spreads out the MVP award. I'm sure Hakeem wins at least 2 more MVPs.

Something that is also overlooked....

If MJ doesn't exist the basketball landscape across the world is completely different. One of the biggest is, the league remains a big man's game.

[dallaslonghorn]

I think you missed his point.

If MJ doesn't exist this gives Hakeem a chance at 2 more rings and Drexler isn't overshadowed by MJ and perhaps wins as well.

Hakeem is already ranked as a top 5 Center of all time by many/most, with some even ranking him as the GOAT center. You mean to say that if he doesn't win 2 or more rings he won't be ranked as the GOAT center?

And as I mentioned before, if MJ doesn't exist this also spreads out the MVP award. I'm sure Hakeem wins at least 2 more MVPs.

Something that is also overlooked....

If MJ doesn't exist the basketball landscape across the world is completely different. One of the biggest is, the league remains a big man's game.

But does MJ not existing effect Hakeem's legacy? It's not like he prevented Hakeem from winning titles; they never played in the Finals.

[alenleomessi]

I think you missed his point.

If MJ doesn't exist this gives Hakeem a chance at 2 more rings and Drexler isn't overshadowed by MJ and perhaps wins as well.

Hakeem is already ranked as a top 5 Center of all time by many/most, with some even ranking him as the GOAT center. You mean to say that if he doesn't win 2 or more rings he won't be ranked as the GOAT center?

And as I mentioned before, if MJ doesn't exist this also spreads out the MVP award. I'm sure Hakeem wins at least 2 more MVPs.

Something that is also overlooked....

If MJ doesn't exist the basketball landscape across the world is completely different. One of the biggest is, the league remains a big man's game.
Thanks for explaining it to him, he doesnt really understand how much Jordan means to NBA

[andgar923]

But does MJ not existing effect Hakeem's legacy? It's not like he prevented Hakeem from winning titles; they never played in the Finals.

I understand that, but Rockets also won without MJ in the league.

Regardless of whether MJ faced Hakeem in the Finals, MJ's absence affects the entire league one way or another.

So even if MJ didn't face Hakeem in the Finals, there's still MVP slots open and I'm sure Hakeem can easily snatch 2 of those, and that alone is enough to enhance his legacy in many people's eyes.

[Psileas]

I think you missed his point.

If MJ doesn't exist this gives Hakeem a chance at 2 more rings and Drexler isn't overshadowed by MJ and perhaps wins as well.

Hakeem is already ranked as a top 5 Center of all time by many/most, with some even ranking him as the GOAT center. You mean to say that if he doesn't win 2 or more rings he won't be ranked as the GOAT center?

And as I mentioned before, if MJ doesn't exist this also spreads out the MVP award. I'm sure Hakeem wins at least 2 more MVPs.

Something that is also overlooked....

If MJ doesn't exist the basketball landscape across the world is completely different. One of the biggest is, the league remains a big man's game.

How does Hakeem win 2 more titles without Jordan without ever having reached in the NBA Finals with a Western Conference team, apart from the seasons Jordan either missed or returned for a part of the season? It's also tough to assume he'd win more MVP's, since he never was second to Jordan. Drexler, I can understand for '92.

[andgar923]

How does Hakeem win 2 more titles without Jordan without ever having reached in the NBA Finals with a Western Conference team, apart from the seasons Jordan either missed or returned for a part of the season? It's also tough to assume he'd win more MVP's, since he never was second to Jordan. Drexler, I can understand for '92.

Can't argue with that.

[Psileas]

Thanks for explaining it to him, he doesnt really understand how much Jordan means to NBA

It seems like you don't understand that Jordan had no impact on Hakeem's failures to win the title. Sorry for not assuming that Hakeem was maybe scared of Jordan or something for not making the Finals prior to '94...
Not to mention that Drexler would still not be the GOAT SG. Just the best SG of the 90's.

[Nevaeh]

If MJ doesn't exist the basketball landscape across the world is completely different. One of the biggest is, the league remains a big man's game.

Another Big one; if MJ doesn't exist, does Kobe still develop his Killer Instinct inspired by Jordan, or simply become another Clyde Drexler?:eek:

Not trying to derail, just asking.

[dallaslonghorn]

Another Big one; if MJ doesn't exist, does Kobe still develop his Killer Instinct inspired by Jordan, or simply become another Clyde Drexler?:eek:

Not trying to derail, just asking.

That's an excellent point. Without Kobe's ability to scowl and mean mug and act harsh, that's at least one less title for the Lakers. At minimum!

[Pinkhearts]

1) People keep forgetting Shaq is in the 90s team as well. At 2000 he was 28. He had a few good prime years then went downhill after that. The other prime younger years are in the 90s where he was a beast too.

2) This Duncan vs Barkely and Malone things is getting old. I will definitely pick Duncan amongst the 3 since he'll play center. It's much easier to find a great PF to play beside Duncan than a good C to play beside Malone/Barkley.

Imagine adding prime Duncan and MAlone/Barkley in this league. I can try to get Love, Lee, Griffin and a whole slew of other stretch PFs to play with him and that will still be a great team.

If I had Malone? I can get maybe Brendan Haywood or Przybilla now realistically. Now that sucks.

[StillKill24]

That's an excellent point. Without Kobe's ability to scowl and mean mug and act harsh, that's at least one less title for the Lakers. At minimum!
well that is what wins championships.

[Psileas]

Another Big one; if MJ doesn't exist, does Kobe still develop his Killer Instinct inspired by Jordan, or simply become another Clyde Drexler?:eek:

Not trying to derail, just asking.

Killer instinct is a personality/character thing. He'd still have it. Maybe he'd have certain stuff less in his mind (for example, winning 6 rings having some "mystical" value). However, he'd have a less refined overall game for obvious reasons, but so would a lot of guards inspired by Jordan.

[andgar923]

Another Big one; if MJ doesn't exist, does Kobe still develop his Killer Instinct inspired by Jordan, or simply become another Clyde Drexler?:eek:

Not trying to derail, just asking.

MJ is MJ and the world knows MJ as MJ because he delivered.

No sort of marketing could've catapulted Drexler into MJ-esque stratosphere and influence the world of basketball if he didn't.

I'm sure if MJ didn't exist, the NBA and corporate America would've tried to push somebody, maybe Drexler would've been one of them. But we don't know if Drexler would've delivered like MJ.

On the other hand, MJ changed our expectations and raised the bar of what a star athlete is supposed to do and be. So maybe Drexler not winning 4-6 rings and just 2 would've been good enough. If so, then millions of basketball fans worldwide do get influenced by Drexler and Kobe ends up with an ugly ass jumper, but with less scowls and pump fisting of course (no homo on the last one).

[alenleomessi]

Who would be the GOAT if there was no Jordan?
Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic ???

[StillKill24]

Who would be the GOAT if there was no Jordan?
Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic ???
how is jordan goat?

[Nevaeh]

MJ is MJ and the world knows MJ as MJ because he delivered.

No sort of marketing could've catapulted Drexler into MJ-esque stratosphere and influence the world of basketball if he didn't.

I'm sure if MJ didn't exist, the NBA and corporate America would've tried to push somebody, maybe Drexler would've been one of them. But we don't know if Drexler would've delivered like MJ.

On the other hand, MJ changed our expectations and raised the bar of what a star athlete is supposed to do and be. So maybe Drexler not winning 4-6 rings and just 2 would've been good enough. If so, then millions of basketball fans worldwide do get influenced by Drexler and Kobe ends up with an ugly ass jumper, but with less scowls and pump fisting of course (no homo on the last one).

You know what's really funny about this, is that marketing actually didn't push Jordan, it was actually Jordan's GAME itself that enhanced the marketing side of things. Those were the days where Players would let their games do the marketing for them, which was how Barkley and Pippen both ended up with shoe deals.

Now it's reversed, where the MARKETING puts pressure on the player to deliver at all costs. That's why some guys crash and burn nowadays trying to live up to the hype that was given them too soon into their careers.

[dallaslonghorn]

2) This Duncan vs Barkely and Malone things is getting old. I will definitely pick Duncan amongst the 3 since he'll play center. It's much easier to find a great PF to play beside Duncan than a good C to play beside Malone/Barkley.

Imagine adding prime Duncan and MAlone/Barkley in this league. I can try to get Love, Lee, Griffin and a whole slew of other stretch PFs to play with him and that will still be a great team.

If I had Malone? I can get maybe Brendan Haywood or Przybilla now realistically. Now that sucks.

That's an EXCELLENT point. People forget that all the time. Positional versatility -- the ability to guard multiple positions on the court -- is tremendously underrated when comparing two players ... Deron and CP3.

[dallaslonghorn]

Who would be the GOAT if there was no Jordan?
Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic ???

I'd go with Kareem. If someone put a gun to my head and said -- you need to give the ball to one player all-time and he needs to make this shot -- I am going to throw into KAJ to the low-post for a sky-hook.

The man was 7'2! And he launched this shot fading-away from behind his head! Unless you can stand on a ladder or use a broom, there is NOTHING you can do to contest his shot.

He won as many rings as MJ and he scored more points.

In his three years at UCLA, he went 88-2! 88-2! Honestly I'm not sure that actually happened. I can't even comprehend how something like that is possible.

Like if Mike's team played Kareem's, there's NOTHING MJ can really do to affect Kareem -- I guess he can try to push the ball up the court and speed up the temp to get KAJ tired. But Kareem's guards can play tight D on MJ and shuttle him into this 7'2 colossus that is protecting the paint.

[andgar923]

You know what's really funny about this, is that marketing actually didn't push Jordan, it was actually Jordan's GAME itself that enhanced the marketing side of things. Those were the days where Players would let their games do the marketing for them, which was how Barkley and Pippen both ended up with shoe deals.

Now it's reversed, where the MARKETING puts pressure on the player to deliver at all costs. That's why some guys crash and burn nowadays trying to live up to the hype that was given them too soon into their careers.

Agree 100%

[andgar923]

I'd go with Kareem. If someone put a gun to my head and said -- you need to give the ball to one player all-time and he needs to make this shot -- I am going to throw into KAJ to the low-post for a sky-hook.

The man was 7'2! And he launched this shot fading-away from behind his head! Unless you can stand on a ladder or use a broom, there is NOTHING you can do to contest his shot.

He won as many rings as MJ and he scored more points.

In his three years at UCLA, he went 88-2! 88-2! Honestly I'm not sure that actually happened. I can't even comprehend how something like that is possible.

Like if Mike's team played Kareem's, there's NOTHING MJ can really do to affect Kareem -- I guess he can try to push the ball up the court and speed up the temp to get KAJ tired. But Kareem's guards can play tight D on MJ and shuttle him into this 7'2 colossus that is protecting the paint.

I might be wrong, but I believe that somebody posted MJ's record vs Kareem and Magic, and he had a winning one.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Stockton/Malone were 36-38 when Jordan faced them. If they were in their prime MJ wouldve only had 4 rings.

Stockton wasn't in his prime in '97 and '98, but Malone was. Karl was 33-34, which is usually an age when most players are past their prime, but not Malone who had become a more complete player than he ever was before.

[97 bulls]

MJ is MJ and the world knows MJ as MJ because he delivered.

No sort of marketing could've catapulted Drexler into MJ-esque stratosphere and influence the world of basketball if he didn't.

I'm sure if MJ didn't exist, the NBA and corporate America would've tried to push somebody, maybe Drexler would've been one of them. But we don't know if Drexler would've delivered like MJ.

On the other hand, MJ changed our expectations and raised the bar of what a star athlete is supposed to do and be. So maybe Drexler not winning 4-6 rings and just 2 would've been good enough. If so, then millions of basketball fans worldwide do get influenced by Drexler and Kobe ends up with an ugly ass jumper, but with less scowls and pump fisting of course (no homo on the last one).
Saying that the media and nike made jordan is another misconception. What were companies like espn, gatorade, nike to name a few doing before they inked jordan? In fact id say that jordan made them. Espn was a fledgeling company that jumped on the jordan band wagon, nike wasn't shit til jordan signed with them. Converse was the big thing. And gatorade was garbage too.

[andgar923]

Saying that the media and nike made jordan is another misconception. What were companies like espn, gatorade, nike to name a few doing before they inked jordan? In fact id say that jordan made them. Espn was a fledgeling company that jumped on the jordan band wagon, nike wasn't shit til jordan signed with them. Converse was the big thing. And gatorade was garbage too.

I wasn't saying that MJ was created by the media or companies.

I was trying to illustrate MJ's influence and worldwide impact was aided by companies. Without them is his impact around the world as big? the commercialization of MJ made the world know about him and basketball.

And as I mentioned, his performance on the court MADE him, and without it the campaign to push MJ to the world is possibly non-existent.

And yes I agree, that MJ made many of the companies that promoted him, including taking the NBA to the next level.

[97 bulls]

I wasn't saying that MJ was created by the media or companies.

I was trying to illustrate MJ's influence and worldwide impact was aided by companies. Without them is his impact around the world as big? the commercialization of MJ made the world know about him and basketball.

And as I mentioned, his performance on the court MADE him, and without it the campaign to push MJ to the world is possibly non-existent.

And yes I agree, that MJ made many of the companies that promoted him, including taking the NBA to the next level.
I know what you were saying bro. I was agreeing with you. I was just pileing on.

[andgar923]

I know what you were saying bro. I was agreeing with you. I was just pileing on.

Sorry, just re-read it.

My gf was on the phone telling me something so I kinda misread.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ "dallaslonghorn." :oldlol:

Any wonder that the thread starter is a huge Kobe groupie, as evidenced by his "Kobe would win 5 rings with Shaq or Shawn Bradley" topic? Only Kobe/Laker fans partake in this brand of MJ-hating idiocy.

[dallaslonghorn]

LMAO @ "dallaslonghorn." :oldlol:

Any wonder that the thread starter is a huge Kobe groupie, as evidenced by his "Kobe would win 5 rings with Shaq or Shawn Bradley" topic? Only Kobe/Laker fans partake in this brand of MJ-hating idiocy.

Did you actually read the thread? Perhaps you should do so.

I think ISH needs to institute some kind of SAT style reading-comprehension tests.

[Burgz]

That's a pretty impressive list ... but look at the 96-98 playoff runs ...

top steals and assists leader and #2 all time leading scorer on the same team...and beat them twice

and a good sonics team with perkins, kemp, payton, schrempf, wouldve been a pretty good team these days i'll tell you that much

[Aussie Dunker]

top steals and assists leader and #2 all time leading scorer on the same team...and beat them twice

and a good sonics team with perkins, kemp, payton, schrempf, wouldve been a pretty good team these days i'll tell you that much

Mann, id love to see the glove against this new generation of athletic lead guards... Would be interesting

[EricForman]

Not running at all. You will not budge from what you believe in and I will not as well. No double standards here. It is my opinion as well as many other the the 80's comp > the 90's. I watched both decades...not saying the Bulls back then are a bad team and Jordan is not the GOAT.

Sorry but you take the Malone and Stockton Jazz....The Ewing Knicks...The Payton and Kemp Sonics...the Drexler Blazers....The Barkley and KJ Suns...and of those teams would not win in the 80's.

They are nothing compared to the prime Bad Boy Pistons which owned Jordan.
Not better the Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers. Not better the the Dr. J and Moses Malone Sixers. Heck even the Dream and Sampson (OG Twin Tower) Rockets.

Those teams through out the 80's had to compete against each other. All those teams where great.

Yes those 90s teams you listed wouldn't beat the 80s teams but that's because in the 90s, teams were no longer as stacked due to out of control salaries, free agency, and just general rule changes.

For example, people constantly say that Jordan's Bulls wouldn't have beaten the 86 Celtics or MAgic's Lakers. And that could very well be true...but that's because Jordan's Bulls weren't stacked like Magic and Bird's mid-80s teams now, with 3 legit all stars and former MVPs coming off the bench.

One of the biggest myths that some people (Im not saying you, I'm saying some Jordan haters) play up is all the guys in Jordan's eras are weak and none could do anything until Magic and Bird were gone.

But what? Hakeem whupped the Lakers in the 80s. Chuck was dropping 24/14 on 60% shooting in the late 80s. He actually had more first place MVP votes than Magic in 1990 (the year Magic won the award). Jordan was already unstoppable individually by 1988, and he had stats that at least equaled what Magic/Bird did while playing far superior defense.

If those guys (Hakeem, Jordan, Chuck) couldn't win then, it was because their teams wasn't as stacked as Magic/Bird's. It's not because they were significantly inferior players. Individually, they competed and held their own with the Magics and the Birds.

And you bring up Pistons owning Jordan. No real basketball fan would ever hold those losses against Jordan considering:

1: The Pistons were the best, roughest, and dirtiest defensive team of that era AND they were specifically focused on containing Jordan

2: Jordan still performed pretty damn well considering he was facing constant double teams and rough/dirty play.

3: Jordan's teammates were much inferior. Pip was not ready mentally and was hardly the "all star Pip" he would become from 1987 to 1990.

When you factor in all of that, the clear conclusion was: Jordan was the best player on the court, but his team wasn't as good.

To say "Jordan was owned" is a misleading statement implying that he wasn't that good and he couldn't beat them until they got old.

[jlauber]

In his three years at UCLA, he went 88-2! 88-2! Honestly I'm not sure that actually happened. I can't even comprehend how something like that is possible.



Off topic, but Kareem's (Alcindor) UCLA team's not only went 88-2 and won three straight NC's (and he was Tourney MVP in each), those two losses were by scores of 71-69 (against Elvin Hayes and the unbeaten Houston Cougars in the Astrodome...and in a game in which he played blind in one eye and only shot 4-18...the ONLY time in his college CAREER in which he failed to shoot at least 50%), and a late season 46-44 loss against UCLA in the '68-69 season. BTW, he and the Bruins avenged that Houston loss in the '68 NCAA Semis, with a 101-69 shellacking of the Cougars (in a game in which they led by as many as 44 points...I'm not sure if any other #2 ranked team ever pounded a #1 by as much.)

So, as you can see, Kareem was a TOTAL of FOUR points from going 90-0 in his college career. BTW, freshman were not allowed to play back then, but given the fact that his soph team started four sophs and went 30-0, I suspect that they would have won FOUR straight NCAA titles. How good was that freshman team?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar


The 1965-1966 UCLA Bruin team was the preseason #1. But on November 27, 1965, the freshman team led by Alcindor defeated the varsity team 75-60 in the first game in the new Pauley Pavilion.[6] This defeat had no effect on the varsity's national ranking. It was still number one the following week. Alcindor scored 51 points in that game.

[97 bulls]

top steals and assists leader and #2 all time leading scorer on the same team...and beat them twice

and a good sonics team with perkins, kemp, payton, schrempf, wouldve been a pretty good team these days i'll tell you that much
In 97 they beat the 44 win wizards who had webber, howard, and strickland. Then they beat the 56 win hawks, who had blaylock, the dpoy in mutombo, laetner, and steve smith. And I know the hawks aren't really a known team. But just to give you an idea. Just imagine how good a team that had howard, roy, bargnani, and jameer nellson would be together. Then they beat the 61 win heat led by mourning, hardaway, and mashburn. Then beat the 64 win jazz. You'd be hard pressed to find a much harder road.

[Niquesports]

Saying that the media and nike made jordan is another misconception. What were companies like espn, gatorade, nike to name a few doing before they inked jordan? In fact id say that jordan made them. Espn was a fledgeling company that jumped on the jordan band wagon, nike wasn't shit til jordan signed with them. Converse was the big thing. And gatorade was garbage too.

To say one made the other would be wrong. At that time the NBA was at its peek. Magic/Bird had help up lift the league to new heights. The most prized organizations on top for 10 years, added to that the black white factor and Stern's marketing genius the game was primed for the next great player.What ESPN did was bring every hightlight every team to people all over the Nation.Jordan highlights and performace was on everyones T.V. everyday for 24hr. Thinking this didn't help make Jordan a household name your mistaken.

Converse your right might have been the more popular shoe att he time but they didn't invest in the marketing push as Nike did. The money spend on advertisement Im sure Nike at least double what Converse was spending. Also the creative insight of naming a shoe after a player had advancement in Jordan's legacy. You didn't see people rushing out every year to get the new Magic's.Also at that time Spike Lee was maybe as popular as Jordan in the Black community to pair them two up at that time was again creative marketing genius.To say this didn't help Jordan equal to what Jordan did for Nike your just wrong.

As far as Gatorade your wrong again. At that time Gaterade was the only sports rehydrate drink out. It I'm sure was the most popular sports supplement period at that time.You dont see Gatorade sports drinks on every field and court because of Jordan.They were already an established company.

Bottom line is Jordan unlike any other Star player in the NBA had it all. The timing ,the personality,the winning,and the talent.IF anyone of these things he didn't have it would not have worked for him.IF he came out in the 80's he would have been Magic/Jordan/Bird if he was ut today he'd be Kobe ??Lebron/Wade . IF he had Allen Iverson personality white american wouldnever have embraced him if he had Tim Duncans 's black America would never had.He he never won we would not be even talking about him as a GOAT.Lastly its not just that he was a great player so were Magic/Bird but he was exciting to watch,you never watch the dunk contest between him and Nique this help uplift him also . Till this day many think Nique won, that contest but Jordan did about 2 dunks nobody had ever seen.

In ending I feel Dr J would be who all of us are talking about if he came out in 84. Doc could have been the same player Jordan was his talent,personality,and excitement.The whole country new of this Dr J with little if any media coverage. I can recall people talking about how Doc was better than Kareem and Mcadoo.

[New York Knicks]

Kids these days.

[Niquesports]

In 97 they beat the 44 win wizards who had webber, howard, and strickland. Then they beat the 56 win hawks, who had blaylock, the dpoy in mutombo, laetner, and steve smith. And I know the hawks aren't really a known team. But just to give you an idea. Just imagine how good a team that had howard, roy, bargnani, and jameer nellson would be together. Then they beat the 61 win heat led by mourning, hardaway, and mashburn. Then beat the 64 win jazz. You'd be hard pressed to find a much harder road.


I don't think any of thoses teams would be on the convo of All Time Great teams.Nothing the Celtics,Sixers,or Pistons had to go through or The Lakers had to beat to win a title.

[97 bulls]

To say one made the other would be wrong. At that time the NBA was at its peek. Magic/Bird had help up lift the league to new heights. The most prized organizations on top for 10 years, added to that the black white factor and Stern's marketing genius the game was primed for the next great player.What ESPN did was bring every hightlight every team to people all over the Nation.Jordan highlights and performace was on everyones T.V. everyday for 24hr. Thinking this didn't help make Jordan a household name your mistaken.

Converse your right might have been the more popular shoe att he time but they didn't invest in the marketing push as Nike did. The money spend on advertisement Im sure Nike at least double what Converse was spending. Also the creative insight of naming a shoe after a player had advancement in Jordan's legacy. You didn't see people rushing out every year to get the new Magic's.Also at that time Spike Lee was maybe as popular as Jordan in the Black community to pair them two up at that time was again creative marketing genius.To say this didn't help Jordan equal to what Jordan did for Nike your just wrong.

As far as Gatorade your wrong again. At that time Gaterade was the only sports rehydrate drink out. It I'm sure was the most popular sports supplement period at that time.You dont see Gatorade sports drinks on every field and court because of Jordan.They were already an established company.

Bottom line is Jordan unlike any other Star player in the NBA had it all. The timing ,the personality,the winning,and the talent.IF anyone of these things he didn't have it would not have worked for him.IF he came out in the 80's he would have been Magic/Jordan/Bird if he was ut today he'd be Kobe ??Lebron/Wade . IF he had Allen Iverson personality white american wouldnever have embraced him if he had Tim Duncans 's black America would never had.He he never won we would not be even talking about him as a GOAT.Lastly its not just that he was a great player so were Magic/Bird but he was exciting to watch,you never watch the dunk contest between him and Nique this help uplift him also . Till this day many think Nique won, that contest but Jordan did about 2 dunks nobody had ever seen.

In ending I feel Dr J would be who all of us are talking about if he came out in 84. Doc could have been the same player Jordan was his talent,personality,and excitement.The whole country new of this Dr J with little if any media coverage. I can recall people talking about how Doc was better than Kareem and Mcadoo.
Come on nique, the fact is that those companies saw a money pit in jordan and latched on to him. Espn put jordan on the highlights cuz they new everyone wanted to watch him. People did have the option to turn the channel. Gatorade went from a sports only drink, to an everyday drink. And nike had a brilliant add campaign, centered around jordan.

And the fact is that media in general was like how it was when erving was playing but I agree that erving had the charisma to probably do the same thing.he just didn't win as much. Which is really what those companies jumped on. Buy our product and you'll win like jordan.

The fact is that those companies definately had help by hireing jordan

[97 bulls]

I don't think any of thoses teams would be on the convo of All Time Great teams.Nothing the Celtics,Sixers,or Pistons had to go through or The Lakers had to beat to win a title.
Off course you wouldn't. And they weren't. But tell us who the 87 lakers had to go through to get their championship.

And by the way, what did you think of my 97 hawks comparison?

[Niquesports]

Come on nique, the fact is that those companies saw a money pit in jordan and latched on to him. Espn put jordan on the highlights cuz they new everyone wanted to watch him. People did have the option to turn the channel. Gatorade went from a sports only drink, to an everyday drink. And nike had a brilliant add campaign, centered around jordan.

And the fact is that media in general was like how it was when erving was playing but I agree that erving had the charisma to probably do the same thing.he just didn't win as much. Which is really what those companies jumped on. Buy our product and you'll win like jordan.

The fact is that those companies definately had help by hireing jordan

What your missing and not to hold it against you I'm thinking you were young in the Jordan time. I say this because the media was latching on to Jordan before he was winning. Much like it was doing with Lebron.YOur right Nike had a brilliant ad campaign ,centered around Jordan ,so how can you not admit thatr Nike helped make Jordan.

Again I wonder if you are older than 30. IN 73-75 media was for most people 3 channels . Sports was maybe 2min. In the avg US city you heard very little about DR. J except word of mouth from people that went to a ABA game.

As far as you saying people had the choice to turn the channel at that time there was no other 24 hour sports. Do you have any idea of if things were different and it was Magic/Jordan. Then comes along a down home white guy name Bird that has mad game and he wins 6 titles how much bigger he would be than Jordan ?

Bulls you know I have mad respect for you. But The right player came at the right time. Nobody made anybody. Like Jackie Robinson Jordan was told how to carry himself. He went out got caught up in gambling . Do you really think he just retired cause he wanted to play baseball. OR can you give any "maybe" that his actions made Stern say hey sit out 2 years instead of me having to suspend you.This being said both parties knew how much money was to be made .

[Niquesports]

Off course you wouldn't. And they weren't. But tell us who the 87 lakers had to go through to get their championship.

And by the way, what did you think of my 97 hawks comparison?

A real good comparison but that doesnt make either team a all time great.

How about sweeping a Sonic team in 87
Dale Ellis 24 ppg
Tom Chambers 23 ppg
X Mcdaniel 23 ppg

4-1 Against the Warriors
Joe Barry Carroll 21 ppg
Sleepy Flood 18 ppg
Purvis Short 18ppg
Chris Mullin 15 ppg

3-0 Denver

Alex English
Fat Lever
Bill hanzlik
Darrell Walker

How does that look for the very weak West
Then 4-2 agaisnt a Boston team just the year before every one calls the GOAT team. The same team that swept your Bulls beat the Bucks and Pistons yet were just too beat up to match the lakers Excuses :facepalm

[lil_watz]

I apologize in advance if this has been stated already as I did not read all 16 pages.

Getting back to the OP original question one thing I think we can look at is the 92 Dream Team practices. If you read about the scrimmages they held against themselves we see these top players talking about how dominate Jordan was among the best. I do not discredit what you have said about having another top superstar at his time but to hear Magic talk about Jordan at these practices makes me believe that in Jordan would easily have outshown another superstar at his time. Last night on 30 for 30 Magic told a story about how his team was beating Jordan's and he made a point to let Jordan know about it and immediately Jordan came out with a steal and a bucket to start things off. Sure Jordan might have played in a weaker era or an era more sutable for him, but with his competative drive and desire to be the best I believe he would have rose above the competition in any era and sealed his legacy.

[Niquesports]

Come on nique, the fact is that those companies saw a money pit in jordan and latched on to him. Espn put jordan on the highlights cuz they new everyone wanted to watch him. People did have the option to turn the channel. Gatorade went from a sports only drink, to an everyday drink. And nike had a brilliant add campaign, centered around jordan.

And the fact is that media in general was like how it was when erving was playing but I agree that erving had the charisma to probably do the same thing.he just didn't win as much. Which is really what those companies jumped on. Buy our product and you'll win like jordan.

The fact is that those companies definately had help by hireing jordan

Bulls like I said you sometimes show your age. Converse had Magic Bird King Isiah ect..... Nike put all its effrot in Jordan. IT paid off. As a player if your marketing agent was spliting its focus on 10 players vs a company focus on 1 player who do you think wins for the player?

[Niquesports]

I apologize in advance if this has been stated already as I did not read all 16 pages.

Getting back to the OP original question one thing I think we can look at is the 92 Dream Team practices. If you read about the scrimmages they held against themselves we see these top players talking about how dominate Jordan was among the best. I do not discredit what you have said about having another top superstar at his time but to hear Magic talk about Jordan at these practices makes me believe that in Jordan would easily have outshown another superstar at his time. Last night on 30 for 30 Magic told a story about how his team was beating Jordan's and he made a point to let Jordan know about it and immediately Jordan came out with a steal and a bucket to start things off. Sure Jordan might have played in a weaker era or an era more sutable for him, but with his competative drive and desire to be the best I believe he would have rose above the competition in any era and sealed his legacy.

This is a very great point . :bowdown:
But also Magic has always said great things about other greats ie:Bird
But to think if a 87 Magic faced a Jordan it would be a treat to all NBA fans .

[Da_Realist]

I apologize in advance if this has been stated already as I did not read all 16 pages.

Getting back to the OP original question one thing I think we can look at is the 92 Dream Team practices. If you read about the scrimmages they held against themselves we see these top players talking about how dominate Jordan was among the best. I do not discredit what you have said about having another top superstar at his time but to hear Magic talk about Jordan at these practices makes me believe that in Jordan would easily have outshown another superstar at his time. Last night on 30 for 30 Magic told a story about how his team was beating Jordan's and he made a point to let Jordan know about it and immediately Jordan came out with a steal and a bucket to start things off. Sure Jordan might have played in a weaker era or an era more sutable for him, but with his competative drive and desire to be the best I believe he would have rose above the competition in any era and sealed his legacy.

Which 30 for 30 was this?

[ashbelly]

MJ denied alot of players from getting a ring..

[lil_watz]

Which 30 for 30 was this?

It was on Magic Johnson and they held it at Michigan State. I didn't check to see if last night was the original air date or not. I only had a chance to watch the last 20 minutes or so but the little bit I did see was interesting.

[jlip]

Which 30 for 30 was this?

It wasn't a 30 for 30 episode. ESPN did a special that aired last night called, 'Homecoming', with Magic Johnson hosted by Rick Reilly. It was something like a friendly "town hall" meeting held at Michigan State with the audience including many of Magic's closest friends and former teammates. Also, Magic told many stories last night, and was asked who was actually better, Bird or MJ. He couldn't give a clear answer but simply said that both were great in their own way.

[Da_Realist]

It wasn't a 30 for 30 episode. ESPN did a special that aired last night called, 'Homecoming', with Magic Johnson hosted by Rick Reilly. It was something like a friendly "town hall" meeting held at Michigan State with the audience including many of Magic's closest friends and former teammates. Also, Magic told many stories last night, and was asked who was actually better, Bird or MJ. He couldn't give a clear answer but simply said that both were great in their own way.

Holy shit how did I miss this? :eek: Please tell me this is coming on again. I'll check now...

[Da_Realist]

Got it. http://espn.go.com/blog/rick-reilly-go-fish/post/_/id/743/homecoming-with-magic-johnson

I'm going to add this to my dvr when I get home :cheers:

Magic Johnson: The Greatest Shot Ever (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5914651)

[crisoner]

Bird or Jordan hmmm...

Magic respects those guys to much to say either or.

[Johnni Gade]

you are obviously wrong.

[crisoner]

MJ denied alot of players from getting a ring..

Wow you sure bring something new and interesting to the conversation.

:rolleyes:

[DeronMillsap]

Bird or Jordan hmmm...

Magic respects those guys to much to say either or.
"one did it on the ground cuz he couldnt jump, the other did it in the air."

:cheers: Good episode.

[97 bulls]

Bulls like I said you sometimes show your age. Converse had Magic Bird King Isiah ect..... Nike put all its effrot in Jordan. IT paid off. As a player if your marketing agent was spliting its focus on 10 players vs a company focus on 1 player who do you think wins for the player?
Say what? So your saying that the 800lbs gorilla (converse) signs all the biggest stars of its time, but since nike picked up only jordan, that's why they got so big? Cuz they only got 1 superstar? Come on. That should tell you all you need to know. Converse made commercials for their stars. Alot in fact. Jordan was just bigger than those guys. And this was even before he started winning. And dr J had commercials too.

Gatorade moved from being a sports drink to being an everyday drink.

And alot of people didn't even have cable til the mid 90s. ESPN started in the late 80s I believe. These companies saw how big jordan was and jumped on.

By the way, im 36. And I remeber I would tune in to ESPN solely to watch the jordan highlights. And I don't rememeber everything. But I remember that bird and magic had endorsements and were on magazine covers, commerials, billboards etc, as was jordan. Jordan was just a bigger name.

[crisoner]

90's

Jordan's comp....

Ewing Knicks
Malone + Stockton Jazz
Clyde's Blazers
Barkley + KJ Suns
Payton + Kemp's Sonics

Now could any of these teams win rings in the 80's against...

Bad Boy Detroit Pistons
Showtime Lakers
Malone and Dr. J Sixers
Larry Legend's Celtics


I don't think so.

IMO and we will never know...Jordan's Bulls could probably take 1 or 2 titles in this era at most.

And the four 80's teams would all rack up 5 to 6 titles in the 90's.

Now somebody please argue this.....this is all we have been pointing out.
If you did not grow up watching both decades...I suggest you STFU.

[97 bulls]

A real good comparison but that doesnt make either team a all time great.

How about sweeping a Sonic team in 87
Dale Ellis 24 ppg
Tom Chambers 23 ppg
X Mcdaniel 23 ppg

4-1 Against the Warriors
Joe Barry Carroll 21 ppg
Sleepy Flood 18 ppg
Purvis Short 18ppg
Chris Mullin 15 ppg

3-0 Denver

Alex English
Fat Lever
Bill hanzlik
Darrell Walker

How does that look for the very weak West
Then 4-2 agaisnt a Boston team just the year before every one calls the GOAT team. The same team that swept your Bulls beat the Bucks and Pistons yet were just too beat up to match the lakers Excuses :facepalm
Wow, ok, in your opinion, who had the harder road? And I agree with you about the celtics. Im sick of the excuses. Mchale was there. End of discussion. Just know that it proves the 87 lakers were the best team of the 80s.

[crisoner]

^^^^^^^^^^

Man Sleepy Floyd...

That guy really did look Sleepy.