10 best defensive players of all time

[ginobli2311]

i've been watching and following the game since the early 80s.

the best that i've seen are:

kareem/hakeem/jordan/payton/pippen/duncan/kg/howard/rodman

i'm sure i'm missing a few....those are just off the top of my head.

who are the 10 best of all time? how do the guys above stack up all time?

looking forward to the responses.

[HB40TheNextStar]

Bobby Jones, for one. Best man-to-man defensive player ever.

Rodman is an obvious one.

Bill Russell, Walt Frazier, Dave Debusschere, Ben Wallace, Sidney Moncrief, and Joe Dumars.

[ginobli2311]

Bobby Jones, for one. Best man-to-man defensive player ever.

Rodman is an obvious one.

Bill Russell, Walt Frazier, Dave Debusschere, Ben Wallace, Sidney Moncrief, and Joe Dumars.

yea. totally forgot about bobby jones. i didn't watch him a ton but i think he was pretty much considered the perfect defender. didn't he make like first team all defense every single year of his career?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Dikembe Mutombo?

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Bruce Bowen (when he wasn't being a dirty player)

[ShaqAttack3234]

David Robinson instantly comes to mind.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Mookie Blaylock as well?

[Optimus Prime]

This is a such a subjective topic and will probably devolve into a flame-fest. Though, I see nothing wrong with the players you named.

[Holy Random]

Wilt.

In before jlauber essay.

[DuMa]

kareem
hakeem
jordan
pippen
payton
rodman
robinson
mutombo
rodman
kg
duncan
ben wallace

[ginobli2311]

David Robinson instantly comes to mind.

yea. totally forgot about robinson and dikembe.

[PHILA]

Nobody was better than Thurmond or Russell.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

http://fakeposters.com.s3.amazonaws.com/results/2010/12/30/511eit29ad.jpg

[chazzy]

It's tough for me to rank them because defensive big men generally impact the game more than perimeter players. So I wouldn't know where to put guys like Payton/Jordan/Pippen in comparison to the great defensive bigs.

[97 bulls]

kareem
hakeem
jordan
pippen
payton
rodman
robinson
mutombo
rodman
kg
duncan
ben wallace
Wow rodmans so good you named him twice?

[heyhey]

peak ron artest should get a mention. the man was a menace on the perimeter and also had the size to bother big guys.

pippen should be mentioned for his versatility. He legitimately could defend 4 positions. I don't know if either of these guys should be top 10 of all time tho.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Nobody was better than Thurmond or Russell.

Puhleaze. Rodman did what Russell was did at the SF position.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Jason Kidd was straight up nasty when he was younger, he could guard either position and lock people down. I can't comment too much on the 80s since I was a kid and more interested in scorers, but I always thought Garnett was the most impressive guy I'd ever seen.

As far as younger guys, I could see Mbah A Moute turning into an all-time great defender. He's absurdly underrated, and once he goes up against someone like Lebron, Kobe, Wade, or someone like that in a playoff series, he'll become a borderline household name. He's ridiculously versatile and doesn't just make life hard for people but completely shuts them down.

[jtj5002]

prime artest was one of the best 2 way player when he had the steps

[Mr. Bryant]

LOL @ jordon being anywhere near the top 10. This is the reason why he is considered overrated.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

LOL @ jordon being anywhere near the top 10. This is the reason why he is considered overrated.

http://sportige.com/top-10-steals-nba-history/

Scroll down, and prepare to hit your face with your palm.

[GiveItToBurrito]

http://sportige.com/top-10-steals-nba-history/

Scroll down, and prepare to hit your face with your palm.

Steals don't necessarily equal good defense. Battier and Bowen rarely get them, while Gilbert Arenas used to (and still does, to a lesser extent) get a ton of them. Not that Jordan wans't great, I just don't think that his steal totals make the case that he is.

[hateraid]

1- Hakeem Olajuwon
2- Dennis Rodman
3- Nate Thurmond
4- Bill Russell
5- Bobby Jones
6- Dikembe Mutombo
7- Dave Cowens
8- Sidney Moncrief
9- Gary Payton
10- Ben Wallace

Stellar defenders: Michael Jordan, KAJ, David Robinson, Paul Pressey, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars, Derek Harper, Walt Frasier, Mark Eaton, Tree Rollins, Elvin Hayes, Ron Artest, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Larry Nance, Maurice Cheeks

[ginobli2311]

1- Hakeem Olajuwon
2- Dennis Rodman
3- Nate Thurmond
4- Bill Russell
5- Bobby Jones
6- Dikembe Mutombo
7- Dave Cowens
8- Sidney Moncrief
9- Gary Payton
10- Ben Wallace

Stellar defenders: Michael Jordan, KAJ, David Robinson, Paul Pressey, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars, Derek Harper, Walt Frasier, Mark Eaton, Tree Rollins, Elvin Hayes, Ron Artest, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Larry Nance, Maurice Cheeks

i've seen enough to know that kg and duncan have to be somewhere on your list.

[PHILA]

i've seen enough to know that kg and duncan have to be somewhere on your list.No Chamberlain or Walton?

[NoEasy9]

1- Hakeem Olajuwon
2- Dennis Rodman
3- Nate Thurmond
4- Bill Russell
5- Bobby Jones
6- Dikembe Mutombo
7- Dave Cowens
8- Sidney Moncrief
9- Gary Payton
10- Ben Wallace

Stellar defenders: Michael Jordan, KAJ, David Robinson, Paul Pressey, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars, Derek Harper, Walt Frasier, Mark Eaton, Tree Rollins, Elvin Hayes, Ron Artest, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Larry Nance, Maurice Cheeks
Do you remember who Scottie Pippen was? Better yet, do you know who Scottie Pippen is?

[ginobli2311]

No Chamberlain or Walton?

that is why i'm asking. i don't know enough to rank guys like wilt or walton because i didn't follow the game back then.

but i know duncan and kg deserve to be in the group that the guy above mentioned.

i personally think duncan was a better defender than both hakeem and wallace.

[PHILA]

Puhleaze. Rodman did what Russell was did at the SF position.Bill's help & overall team defense was 2nd to none. Of course I consider Dennis the best 1-1 wing defender we have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAYFRHxV43M

[hateraid]

Do you remember who Scottie Pippen was? Better yet, do you know who Scottie Pippen is?

Nope, do you?

I just listed players who played well before Pippen. Do YOU know who they are?
Use your head

[hateraid]

i've seen enough to know that kg and duncan have to be somewhere on your list.
My top ten is based on players who changed the outcome of games on the defense alone. KG and Duncan are geat defenders, but not game changers

[ginobli2311]

My top ten is based on players who changed the outcome of games on the defense alone. KG and Duncan are geat defenders, but not game changers

i didn't say they needed to be top ten. although i think they both are.

but i didn't see you list them in your "stellar defenders list"

if derek harper gets mentioned...then you need to mention kg and duncan. thats all i'm saying.

[NoEasy9]

Nope, do you?
Yeah, He was the greatest defensive perimeter player to ever play in the nba. Versatile enough to guard from positions 1-4. He is the prototypical definition of a game changing defender...

[hateraid]

i didn't say they needed to be top ten. although i think they both are.

but i didn't see you list them in your "stellar defenders list"

if derek harper gets mentioned...then you need to mention kg and duncan. thats all i'm saying.

I didn't mention a lot of players, I just rattled off what came to mind.

Why is everyone getting worked up over my post? I thought the top ten was the mosy important part. Would it satisfy the peanut gallery if I continued the name dropping?

[MrJohnWall]

Bruce Bowen, Artest.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan

Easily

[MrJohnWall]

LOL @ jordon being anywhere near the top 10. This is the reason why he is considered overrated.
Exactly.

[hateraid]

Yeah, He was the greatest defensive perimeter player to ever play in the nba. Versatile enough to guard from positions 1-4. He is the prototypical definition of a game changing defender...

Lol, 1-4 positions? Game changing deferder?

I guess you don't know who Scottie Pippen is

[ginobli2311]

has anyone listed jordan in their top 10?

the only perimeter defender that i think should be top ten is pippen. and at the lower part of the top ten at that.

like chazzy said...the impact of bigs pretty much always trumps guards.

jordan was no doubt one of the best guard defenders ever though.

[jlauber]

For those that rank Kareem over Wilt on their lists, think about this...in Wilt's last two seasons, when Kareem was in his statistical prime, Chamberlain was voted first-team all-defense. And I am convinced that had there been a DPOY award back then, Chamberlain would have won it in his 71-72 season.

Wilt held Kareem, in their 28 career H2H games, to .464 shooting, which was nearly 100 points less than Abdul-Jabbar's career FG% of .559. Not only that, but in their last ten H2H games, Wilt, at ages 35 and 36, and on a surgically repaired knee, limited Kareem to .434 shooting. Not only that, but Chamberlain blocked something like 15 sky-hooks in their 71-72 WCF's.

So many historians also point out how Russell curtailed Wilt's offense, which was true to a certain extent, but they never mention the fact that Wilt did a great job against Russell, as well. We don't have the numbers from their '64 Finals series, but Russell shot .356 in his 10 post-season games, and five of them were against Wilt. In the '65 Finals, Russell shot .702 against the Lakers. In the previous series against Chamberlain, he shot .451. In the '66 Finals, Russell averaged 23.6 ppg against the Lakers. In the previous series against Wilt, he averaged 14 ppg. In the 59-60 season, Russell shot a career high .467. In ten games against Wilt in that same season, he shot .398. In the '66-67 regular season, Russell shot .454 from the field. In the ECF's against Chamberlain, he shot .358. The two faced each other in four game seven's, and while we know that Chamberlain shot .652 against Russell in those four games, we only have two of Russell's numbers, but in those two, he shot .391 against Wilt. We also have a documented game in 1965 in which Chamberlain held Russell to an 0-14 game.

Nate Thurmond was a remarkable defensive center who may have been Wilt's toughest defender. But, in their three post-season series, (66-67, 68-69, and 72-73) Wilt shot over 50% in all three, with a high series of .560...while Nate never even shot 40% against Wilt in any of them, with a low of .343.

In their very first meeting, Wilt told Bellamy that he would not score against him (Wilt.) In the first half, Bellamy failed to make a basket, and Wilt blocked several of his shots. Wilt "allowed" him to play in the second half, though. And, in their 67-68 H2H playoff series, Bellamy, who shot .541 during the regular season, only shot .421 against Wilt.

The game's greatest shot-blocker? Almost all evidence points to Chamberlain, who Harvey Pollack estimated to have had SEASONS of double-digit block averages. Pollack also had one game in the early 60's in which Wilt blocked 25 shots. And, on Christmas day in 1968, on a nationally televised game, Wilt recorded 23 blocks. In his 71-72 season, there were some recorded numbers which indicated that Wilt was blocking between 7-8 shots per game.

Most historians rank Russell as the greatest defensive center of all-time, but by the mid-to-late 60's, Wilt was his equal, and perhaps even superior.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bruce Bowen, Artest.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan

Easily

Not even close, actually. In terms of 1-on-1 defense they can be argued as his equal, or even perhaps better, but they're not even in his universe in terms of team/help defense, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Not even close, actually. In terms of 1-on-1 defense they can be argued as his equal, or even perhaps better, but they're not even in his universe in terms of team/help defense, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact.
:applause:

[NoEasy9]

Lol, 1-4 positions? Game changing deferder?

I guess you don't know who Scottie Pippen is
Okay then...so you are telling me that Ron Artest, Jason Kidd, and MJ are game changing defenders but Pippen isn't. I'd love for someone with any logic to back up their case and argue that Artest and Kidd were better defenders than Pip.

I understand Jordan...but not Artest and Kidd. So take your time and explain how they are better...cause boy you will need it.

[wally_world]

Walt Frazier anyone? Him and The Glove tossup for best defensive PG ever

[XxSMSxX]

LOL @ jordon being anywhere near the top 10. This is the reason why he is considered overrated.


Your right but Michael JordAn is one of the greatest defenders of all time and deserves to be in the top 10 or at the very least in the conversation

[Niquesports]

has anyone listed jordan in their top 10?

the only perimeter defender that i think should be top ten is pippen. and at the lower part of the top ten at that.

like chazzy said...the impact of bigs pretty much always trumps guards.

jordan was no doubt one of the best guard defenders ever though.

Funny no one mentioned Michael Cooper. He was Pippen before Pippen.He could defend 1-3. Lets stop with the extra Pippen couldn't defend a true PF. Mchale would have had him for dinner.
Also Tyshawn Prince a poor mans Pippen.
Muggys no one could bring the ball up court against him.
Alonzo a true fighter in the post.
Old school
K.C. Jones,Jerry Soloan(sp jazz coach) Norm Van Lier,Wes Unseld ,Willis Reed

[hateraid]

Okay then...so you are telling me that Ron Artest, Jason Kidd, and MJ are game changing defenders but Pippen isn't. I'd love for someone with any logic to back up their case and argue that Artest and Kidd were better defenders than Pip.

I understand Jordan...but not Artest and Kidd. So take your time and explain how they are better...cause boy you will need it.

You're a condescending one aren't ya?

First off, I think you've misunderstood when I asked you do you know who Scottie Pippen was. It was meant to be a sarcastic response to your condescending remark. I actually think Pippen is a great defender, he just didn't immediately pop into my mind when I was rattling off names, nor did I suggest the names I didn't list as inferior to the names mentioned on the stellar defender list. The top 10 was my response to the thread, I just added a few names that came to mind. There are plenty if names that I didn't mention that are far superior to some that I've mentioned such as Wilt, Wes Unseld, Micheal Ray Richardson, kevin McHale, and yes Pippen was a stellar defender.

Now as far as Pippen being a game changer on D? He was good, even good enough to draw the opposing team's top offensive perimeter player over Jordan, but being a game changer on D is a stretch

[Roundball_Rock]

Lets stop with the extra Pippen couldn't defend a true PF.

:lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

Pippen shutting down the GOAT offensive PF while chipping in 35 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks while running the offense on the side.


Lol, 1-4 positions? Game changing deferder?

I guess you don't know who Scottie Pippen is

:oldlol:


Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.


There is no great secret to Pippen's success. His long arms, agility, timing and instinct are more responsible for Chicago's defensive success than any pre-game chalk diagram. Pippen has been disrupting offenses for as long as he has been in the league.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.


''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

There is more where that came from...

[UwishUhadWall]

1- Hakeem Olajuwon
2- Dennis Rodman


I'm not going to comment on the rest of your list--particularly the older players whom I never saw--but your top 2 are without a doubt the best two defenders I've ever seen in my lifetime.

[Niquesports]

:lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

Pippen shutting down the GOAT offensive PF while chipping in 35 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks while running the offense on the side.



:oldlol:

Barkley isn't a true PF. Barkley is more of a tweener due to his size. I said someone like Mchale,karl Malone,Tim Duncan.





http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

There is more where that came from...


I never question how good Pippen was as a defender. I just dont think he can defend a true 4 and would have problems with a true quick PG like KJ or Isiah.

[magnax1]

I never question how good Pippen was as a defender. I just dont think he can defend a true 4 and would have problems with a true quick PG like KJ or Isiah.
Probably depends on the PF, but he did defend Barkley quite often. He definitely couldn't guard most quick PGs though. Pippen's one on one defense wasn't what was so great anyway, Jordan was the better man defender of the two.

[Harison]

Any list without Bill Russell isnt worth salt, he is GOAT defender.

[ThaRegul8r]

Nobody was better than Thurmond or Russell.

:applause:

I've found it interesting over the years, how they were acknowledged by everyone as the two best defensive centers, but then as time passed, you had Hakeem enter the league, people go gaga over his block and steal numbers, and then you had people proclaim him the GDCOAT (because he had the most blocks since the NBA started recording them, which is quite different from having the most blocks ever), but Russell's name would still always be mentioned (other than, of course, the contingent who say that anyone would didn't play in the now was a scrub :rolleyes: ). Yet Thurmond completely gets the shaft, as "most people" don't even mention him at all anymore (because they don't even know who he is). It's just interesting as time passes, and you have a whole new generation of fans who don't know much (if anything) about what when on before them, and how "popular opinion" is shaped by it.

[Teanett]

You're a condescending one aren't ya?

First off, I think you've misunderstood when I asked you do you know who Scottie Pippen was. It was meant to be a sarcastic response to your condescending remark. I actually think Pippen is a great defender, he just didn't immediately pop into my mind when I was rattling off names, nor did I suggest the names I didn't list as inferior to the names mentioned on the stellar defender list. The top 10 was my response to the thread, I just added a few names that came to mind. There are plenty if names that I didn't mention that are far superior to some that I've mentioned such as Wilt, Wes Unseld, Micheal Ray Richardson, kevin McHale, and yes Pippen was a stellar defender.

Now as far as Pippen being a game changer on D? He was good, even good enough to draw the opposing team's top offensive perimeter player over Jordan, but being a game changer on D is a stretch

pippen not a game changer on d? :ohwell:
let's go back t othe 1991 nba finals.
after chicago lost game 1,
pippen took over jordan's defensive assignment.
bulls win the next 4 games to win their 1st title.
who was the scrub he was guarding?
:rolleyes:

[Penny_Hardaway]

:lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

Pippen shutting down the GOAT offensive PF while chipping in 35 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks while running the offense on the side.



:oldlol:







http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

There is more where that came from...

Nice post, I liked the quotes and the video.

And I do think Scottie Pippen was definetely a game-changer on D, he has to be a top-5 perimeter defender of all time: versatility, stamina, harrasment, will...etc, everything an all-time great defender should have he had.

[Nash-tastic]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dennis Rodman
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan (The fact that this man does not have a DPOY is a travesty)
Kevin Garnett

[BIZARRO]

Funny no one mentioned Michael Cooper. He was Pippen before Pippen.He could defend 1-3. Lets stop with the extra Pippen couldn't defend a true PF. Mchale would have had him for dinner.
Also Tyshawn Prince a poor mans Pippen.
Muggys no one could bring the ball up court against him.
Alonzo a true fighter in the post.
Old school
K.C. Jones,Jerry Soloan(sp jazz coach) Norm Van Lier,Wes Unseld ,Willis Reed


I know, right? I was going down the first 3 pages of this thread and I was like, "Wait, no Michael Cooper?"

Coop was the 1987 defensive player of the year, and in the words of Larry Bird "the best defender who ever guarded me."
Praise doesn't get much higher than that.

[Micku]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dennis Rodman
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan (The fact that this man does not have a DPOY is a travesty)
Kevin Garnett

Yeah. Ben Wallace kept getting the DPOY back then.

[Nash-tastic]

Yeah. Ben Wallace kept getting the DPOY back then.
Duncan impact on defense should at least earn him one DPOY, it truly makes me :facepalm that he still doesn't have one

[Psileas]

Puhleaze. Rodman did what Russell was did at the SF position.

Νο, Rodman did not revolutionize defense at his position at the same level with Russell. Nobody ever did, anyway, and it's common knowledge that it's already a big men's category.
So, my top-10 looks like this:

-Russell (goes without saying)
-Hakeem (closest ever to Russell in terms of all-around big man defense)
-Thurmond (maybe the greatest individual defender, at least as a big)
-Robinson (all-around excellence and more size than most players in the list)
-Wilt (his presence ranged from intimidation when playing aloof to complete dominance when he put emphasis on D. Top-2 shot blocker ever)
-Duncan (greatest defender among PF's)
-Ben Wallace (6'7, dominant shot blocker, rebounder, stole balls, didn't back down, without him, the Pistons wouldn't have a shot for the '04 or '05 titles)
-Mutombo (7'2 along with top defensive instincts is a recipe for inclusion)
-Kareem (not always giving 100% on defense and, ironically, in the early 70's, some centers were trying to exploit it by taking a lot of shots in certain games against him, but it rarely payed off. Still a dominating presence, able to show great reflexes for a guy his size.
-Pippen (arguably the greatest perimeter defender)

Players like Walton or Elmore Smith also had dominant stretches, but not very long ones to be seriously considered.

[G.O.A.T]

Overall Impact
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Nate Thurmond
4.Ben Wallace
5. Dikembe Mutombo
6. David Robinson
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Tim Duncan
9. Alonzo Mourning
T-10-Kevin Garnett
T-10-Dennis Rodman

Honorable Mention: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Joe Dumars, Mark Eaton, Patrick Ewing, Walt Frazier, Artis Gilmore, Dwight Howard, Michael Jordan, Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Walton

Non-Centers/Defensive Anchors
1. Dennis Rodman
2. Gary Payton
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Walt Frazier
5. Bobby Jones
6. Sidney Moncrief
7. Michael Jordan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Dennis Johnson
10. Dave DeBusschere

Honorable Mention: Mookie Blaylock, Bruce Bowen, Kobe Bryant, Maurice Cheeks, Michael Cooper, K.C. Jones, John Havlicek, Jason Kidd, Kevin McHale, Alvin Robertson, Tom Sanders, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, Jerry West

[Calabis]

This list is hard, because your comparing perimeter defenders with interior defenders, I believe it needs to be separated

In no particular order

Perimeter Defenders:

1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Michael Jordan
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Alvin Robertson (Cannot believe no one mentioned him)
5. Michael Cooper
6. Gary Payton
7. Kobe Bryant/Dennis Johnson
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Bobby Jones
10. Ron Artest

Interior Defenders

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlin
3. Dikembe Mutombo
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. David Robertson
6. Kareem
7. Robert Parrish
8. Alonzo Mourning
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kevin Garnett

[Calabis]

LOL @ jordon being anywhere near the top 10. This is the reason why he is considered overrated.

Lol @ any moron who doesn't know that Jordan is easily a top 3 perimeter defender all time

[Teanett]

Overall Impact
1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Nate Thurmond
4.Ben Wallace
5. Dikembe Mutombo
6. David Robinson
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Tim Duncan
9. Alonzo Mourning
T-10-Kevin Garnett
T-10-Dennis Rodman


honestly, out of all those above, ben is the worst man defender.
i can't speak about russell, thurmond or wilt, but i wouldn't put him over
the rest.
i mean mutombo? guy is 7'2''!!!
also, shaq is really underrated.

[Calabis]

pippen not a game changer on d? :ohwell:
let's go back t othe 1991 nba finals.
after chicago lost game 1,
pippen took over jordan's defensive assignment.
bulls win the next 4 games to win their 1st title.
who was the scrub he was guarding?
:rolleyes:

Only for game 2, then Jordan pretty much guarded Magic the entire series, I hate when people keep saying this, its obvious they didn't see the series or were only 5 when they did

[Teanett]

Only for game 2, then Jordan pretty much guarded Magic the entire series, I hate when people keep saying this, its obvious they didn't see the series or were only 5 when they did

it was games 2-5.
magic went from shooting 80% against jordan to under 40% against pip.
i was 17.

[Calabis]

it was games 2-5.
magic went from shooting 80% against jordan to under 40% against pip.
i was 17.

I'm sure the series is on the net or you tube, please go watch it again, Pippen primary assignment was Worthy, until he went out with injury...nice try though

Also he went 4-5 in GM 1 with 10 FTA wow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRnBOfhGBY (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRnBOfhGBY)

[MasterDurant24]

Puhleaze. Rodman did what Russell was did at the SF position.
Not even close. Rodman only played SF with the Pistons. He never averaged over a block a game for his whole career. He never had as many assists as Russell. Rodman isn't even in the top 20 rebounders(in terms of numbers) of all time anyway.

[MasterDurant24]

Lol @ any moron who doesn't know that Jordan is easily a top 3 perimeter defender all time
I must be a moron, because I think Walt Frazier, Scottie Pippen, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Bruce Bowen, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper, and Gary Payton all have arguements to be over him. You also must have to take in account that it is much easier to play defense on the perimeter when you have one of the greatest defenders of all time behind you. (Dennis Rodman)

[az00m]

David Robinson instantly comes to mind.
Not mine, he got owned by hakeem.

[az00m]

Wow rodmans so good you named him twice?

There two versions of rodman!

The crazy one(guard pf and centers) and the half normal one(Guarded 1-4)

[az00m]

has anyone listed jordan in their top 10?

the only perimeter defender that i think should be top ten is pippen. and at the lower part of the top ten at that.

like chazzy said...the impact of bigs pretty much always trumps guards.

jordan was no doubt one of the best guard defenders ever though.

Bro, you do know Rodman was a perimeter/wing defender early in his career when he won back to back defensive year titles right? He is the only person to average under a 1 block and under 1 steal to win the award. guarded 1-4.

[Simple Jack]

I must be a moron, because I think Walt Frazier, Scottie Pippen, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Bruce Bowen, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper, and Gary Payton all have arguements to be over him. You also must have to take in account that it is much easier to play defense on the perimeter when you have one of the greatest defenders of all time behind you. (Dennis Rodman)

Jordan won DPOY well before Rodman arrived.

[Pointguard]

1. Dikembe Russell (Not seen enough)
2. Hakeem
3. Gary Payton Nate Thurmond (Not seen enough)
4. Pippin
5. KG
6. Michael Cooper
7. Ben Wallace
8. MJ
9. Wilt
10.Rodman

Right there:
Walt Frazier,Tim Duncan, Sidney Moncrief, Alonzo Mourning, J Kidd, Dennis Johnson, David Robinson, Bobby Jones, Dave Debusshure.

Notes:
Mount Dikembe was feared around the basket and not challenged for years. He was in people's heads. He covered more area than any other player as his length and second jump was the hardest to thing in the game to get over. Hakeem had the best judgment as to when to go for a block tho I think Eaton blocked much more, Hakeem blocked in play and had more of a surprise element. Payton was smothering and affected point guards decision making - he was right there at the point of where the offense initiated and made his mark - penetration was not an option.

Micheal Cooper was the best versatile defender and all around perimeter defender: Could shut down all three perimeter positions. KG, Pippen are/were great team defenders that make great defensive decisions that kept people out of the paint.

Frazier was the hardest to leave off as I seen him steal the ball and demoralize great guards in big games - he once feinted a steal and Jo Jo White just fell on the ball.

[MasterDurant24]

Jordan won DPOY well before Rodman arrived.
I was just saying, that Rodman made it easier on Pip and Jordan. No doubt Jordan was a great defender before that.

[pmj]

I think it's sad Mutombo's finger waving would probably get a tech now.

[97 bulls]

Not even close. Rodman only played SF with the Pistons. He never averaged over a block a game for his whole career. He never had as many assists as Russell. Rodman isn't even in the top 20 rebounders(in terms of numbers) of all time anyway.
Rodman wasn't very good at steals or blocking shots. But he was a master at drawing charges. Which is just. As good as a steal or block. In fact, he's one of the best ever.

[MasterDurant24]

Rodman wasn't very good at steals or blocking shots. But he was a master at drawing charges. Which is just. As good as a steal or block. In fact, he's one of the best ever.
He was comparing him to Russell.

[Teanett]

Rodman wasn't very good at steals or blocking shots. But he was a master at drawing charges. Which is just. As good as a steal or block. In fact, he's one of the best ever.

steals/block doesn't mean much in rodman's case.
you get them mostly from help defense.

[Z0mgZ0rs]

Dennis Rodman
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Hakeem Olajuwon
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron james
Dwyane Wade
Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen

[Calabis]

I must be a moron, because I think Walt Frazier, Scottie Pippen, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Bruce Bowen, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper, and Gary Payton all have arguements to be over him. You also must have to take in account that it is much easier to play defense on the perimeter when you have one of the greatest defenders of all time behind you. (Dennis Rodman)

Well at least you admitted it, because Jordan put up record seasons prior to Pippen and Rodman and every damn coach in the league considered him the best perimeter defender in the league during his first run.

Sidney Moncrief and Pip are the only guys I would place in front of Jordan, the other guys are not better, but you can keep thinking they are

Sorry to the OP, for this becoming a Jordan thread

[MasterDurant24]

Well at least you admitted it, because Jordan put up record seasons prior to Pippen and Rodman and every damn coach in the league considered him the best perimeter defender in the league during his first run.

Sidney Moncrief and Pip are the only guys I would place in front of Jordan, the other guys are not better, but you can keep thinking they are

Sorry to the OP, for this becoming a Jordan thread
What about Walt Frazier? He could get steals anytime he wanted, I would consider his defense superior to Sidney Moncrief. Michael Cooper was the only one who could slow Bird down. I'd also take Bruce Bowen over Kobe. Jordan and Pippen were also allowed to hancheck, which also hurts Payton.

[Calabis]

I was just saying, that Rodman made it easier on Pip and Jordan. No doubt Jordan was a great defender before that.

Dude Jordan's second run he was the second best perimeter defender on the team, Pippen was better at that time, Rodman was primarily a post defender, Harper helped a lot also, he was helping ease old Jordan's burden when Pippen missed 44 games in 97-98. Jordan in mid 80's-93 was a beast defender and Pippen was not better at that time, probably his equal from 90-93....but include the offensive burden MJ had and it makes it that much more impressive

[LA_Showtime]

Mourning?

[Niquesports]

Not mine, he got owned by hakeem.
:oldlol:

[Calabis]

What about Walt Frazier? He could get steals anytime he wanted, I would consider his defense superior to Sidney Moncrief. Michael Cooper was the only one who could slow Bird down. I'd also take Bruce Bowen over Kobe. Jordan and Pippen were also allowed to hancheck, which also hurts Payton.

You brought up steals..... Jordan is #2 on the list(behind Stockton I believe), he is #1 in block shots by a guard....Payton played in the handcheck era, he won DPOY during that time...go look at a Jordan defensive vid or look up some of his old games, he was not a huge handchecker, his D was great.....as far as Kobe and Bowen, young Kobe was just as good as Bowen imo and also had other responsibilities like scoring....I'm not going to argue lists, u have a right to u'r opinion..Dennis Johnson was a damn good on ball defender also

[Ne 1]

First of all, I am going to clear this up: Young Michael Jordan (1985-1993) was one of the greatest defensive guards in history. He is on the short list of greatest defensive guards, along with Walt Frazier, Sidney Moncrief, K.C. Jones, and Joe Dumars. Jordan's only weakness was being posted up. Magic Johnson exploited this in games 1 and 2 of the 1991 Finals. After putting 3 fouls on Jordan in the first half of game 2, Phil Jackson opted to move Pippen over to guard Magic and put Jordan on James Worthy. Fortunately for Jordan and Jackson, Worthy was playing on a sprained ankle, which eliminated his dominance (he had 3 inches on Jordan, and he was the guy who dropped 42 points on Dennis Rodman in Game 7 of the 1988 finals).

Young Jordan was an exceptional ball defender and he was the very best player of his era at roaming the passing lanes.

There, it's out. He was a very good defender. I don't have any problems
his 6 first-team all defense awards up that point.

However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is understandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh freaking Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Jordan from '96-'98 simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.

[Niquesports]

First of all, I am going to clear this up: Young Michael Jordan (1985-1993) was one of the greatest defensive guards in history. He is on the short list of greatest defensive guards, along with Walt Frazier, Sidney Moncrief, K.C. Jones, and Joe Dumars. Jordan's only weakness was being posted up. Magic Johnson exploited this in games 1 and 2 of the 1991 Finals. After putting 3 fouls on Jordan in the first half of game 2, Phil Jackson opted to move Pippen over to guard Magic and put Jordan on James Worthy. Fortunately for Jordan and Jackson, Worthy was playing on a sprained ankle, which eliminated his dominance (he had 3 inches on Jordan, and he was the guy who dropped 42 points on Dennis Rodman in Game 7 of the 1988 finals).

Young Jordan was an exceptional ball defender and he was the very best player of his era at roaming the passing lanes.

There, it's out. He was a very good defender. I don't have any problems
his 6 first-team all defense awards up that point.

However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is understandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh freaking Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Jordan from '96-'98 simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

First of all, I am going to clear this up: Young Michael Jordan (1985-1993) was one of the greatest defensive guards in history. He is on the short list of greatest defensive guards, along with Walt Frazier, Sidney Moncrief, K.C. Jones, and Joe Dumars. Jordan's only weakness was being posted up. Magic Johnson exploited this in games 1 and 2 of the 1991 Finals. After putting 3 fouls on Jordan in the first half of game 2, Phil Jackson opted to move Pippen over to guard Magic and put Jordan on James Worthy. Fortunately for Jordan and Jackson, Worthy was playing on a sprained ankle, which eliminated his dominance (he had 3 inches on Jordan, and he was the guy who dropped 42 points on Dennis Rodman in Game 7 of the 1988 finals).

Young Jordan was an exceptional ball defender and he was the very best player of his era at roaming the passing lanes.

There, it's out. He was a very good defender. I don't have any problems
his 6 first-team all defense awards up that point.

However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is understandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh freaking Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Jordan from '96-'98 simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.

everything you say is true to a degree. but you are just talking about man to man defense. jordan remained a great team/help defender throughout his entire career.

there is far more to defense than just playing a man one on one. in fact, help/team defense is far more important and has the bigger impact.

[Alhazred]

In no particular order:

David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell
Dikembe Mutombo
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Ben Wallace
Dennis Rodman

[Calabis]

First of all, I am going to clear this up: Young Michael Jordan (1985-1993) was one of the greatest defensive guards in history. He is on the short list of greatest defensive guards, along with Walt Frazier, Sidney Moncrief, K.C. Jones, and Joe Dumars. Jordan's only weakness was being posted up. Magic Johnson exploited this in games 1 and 2 of the 1991 Finals. After putting 3 fouls on Jordan in the first half of game 2, Phil Jackson opted to move Pippen over to guard Magic and put Jordan on James Worthy. Fortunately for Jordan and Jackson, Worthy was playing on a sprained ankle, which eliminated his dominance (he had 3 inches on Jordan, and he was the guy who dropped 42 points on Dennis Rodman in Game 7 of the 1988 finals).

Young Jordan was an exceptional ball defender and he was the very best player of his era at roaming the passing lanes.

There, it's out. He was a very good defender. I don't have any problems
his 6 first-team all defense awards up that point.

However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is understandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh freaking Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Jordan from '96-'98 simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.

This is pretty much spot on, until 93, he was still a great defender.....but this still going on today ala Kobe Bryant

[Rose]

Pretty good Jordan post in here by Ne1. props.

[Rose]

This is pretty much spot on, until 93, he was still a great defender.....but this still going on today ala Kobe Bryant
Also this.

[catch24]

Kobe stopped playing defense 3 years ago -- on a consistent basis that is.

[MasterDurant24]

You brought up steals..... Jordan is #2 on the list(behind Stockton I believe), he is #1 in block shots by a guard....Payton played in the handcheck era, he won DPOY during that time...go look at a Jordan defensive vid or look up some of his old games, he was not a huge handchecker, his D was great.....as far as Kobe and Bowen, young Kobe was just as good as Bowen imo and also had other responsibilities like scoring....I'm not going to argue lists, u have a right to u'r opinion..Dennis Johnson was a damn good on ball defender also
They didn't count steals in Walt Frazier's prime....I mentioned that Payton played in handchecking era....I do agree that Jordan in the late 80's, early 90's is certainly one of the greatest defenders of all time...I mentioned Dennis Johnson....I do not take "other responsibilities" in measuring defensive greatness, that would be taking away from great defenders like Dennis Rodman, Michael Cooper, and Bruce Bowen. The only thing that having other responsibilities means is that you are a more versatile player.

[ThaRegul8r]

They didn't count steals in Walt Frazier's prime....

We know Frazier had a 15-steal game (with 33 points) November 26, 1969 against the Atlanta Hawks.

[hateraid]

All-time team

C: Hakeem Olajuwon
PF: Dennis Rodman
SF: Bobby Jones
SG: Sidney Moncrief
PG: Gary Payton

2nd team

C: Bill Russell
PF: Nate Thurmond
SF: Scottie Pippen
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Walt Frasier

That actually looks like a good match-up. Almost threadworthy

[jlauber]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-10, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'" [1]

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1[/QUOTE]

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Robert-Allen-Cherry/dp/1572436727

[QUOTE]Bill Russell may have won all those championships, but not even Russell was a match for Wilt statisically. Chamberlain almost always outscored and out rebounded Russell in every encounter. Russell no doubt almost always had the better teams. Abdul Jabbar played 20 seasons to Wilts 13, and yet Chamberlain has several thousand more lifetime rebounds. In the twilight of his career, a 35 year old Wilt led the Lakers to victory over the Bucks and a 25 year old Jabbar during the 1972 playoffs. Even more astounding, was wilt blocked 20 shots in two consecutive games in that series, and 11 of those blocked shots were on Kareem. Who the heck ever did that to Jabbar. Makes you wonder what Wilt would have done in his prime. As great as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson were, none of them had the impact or dominance of Wilt Chamberlain. The rules of the game were altered upon Wilts arrival into the league. Modern day fans talk of Shaq being the greatest center of all-time. Does anyone out there think Shaq could have blocked 11 Kareem shots in two games? Shaq wouldn't have been able to leap high enough to block a skyhook. That statistic alone, should be enough to convince anyone of Wilts athleticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE][COLOR="DarkRed"]In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[85] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[85] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his final Game 6 performance, which the Lakers won 106

[INDI]

Honarable mentions eric snow, jason kidd, shane battier, joe dumars jeff foster (was a greatman to man defender early in his career).

[Pointguard]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-10, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'" [1]

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Robert-Allen-Cherry/dp/1572436727



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain





http://www.hofmag.com/content/view/150/29/1/1/



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082021/2/index.htm:



http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/05/classic-confrontation-wilt-versus-shaq.html




I already mentioned that Wilt held Kareem to .464 shooting over the course of their 28 career H2H meetings...and Wilt was well past his prime and playing on a surgically repaired knee. And, in their last ten H2H games, Chamberlain limited Kareem to .434 shooting (and .414 over the course of the last pivotal four games of the '72 WCF's.) In his LAST season, and over the course of six regular season games, Wilt outshot Kareem, .637 to .450.

Wilt also faced Nate Thurmond in three playoff series (66-67, 68-69, and 72-73), and held Nate to less than 40% shooting in each, with a low of .343. Meanwhile, Wilt shot over 50% in each, with a high of .560.

Against Russell, Wilt held him to .398 shooting over the course of ten games in the 59-60 season, in a year in which Russell shot his career high of .467. In the 66-67 ECF's, Chamberlain limited Russell to .358 shooting, in a year in which Russell shot .454. In one game in the '65 season, Wilt also blanked Russell, holding him to an 0-14 game.

Walt Bellamy shot .541 in the '67-68 regular season, but in the playoffs that season, and against Chamberlain, he shot .421.


Blocked shots? Take a look at this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1
Hard to argue your case... . Wilt might have been the one guy that had better timing than Hakeem and that is evident after the knee surgery which dims the reflect muscles in the legs. Lets be honest, nobody else is stopping Kareem like he did. And he was blocking shots and keeping it inbounds - which they acted like Russell was the only one that did such.

[magnax1]

Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Bobby Jones
KG
Duncan
Wallace
Dumars
Mutumbo
Payton
Jordan
Bowen
It's probably not ten, but that's my list in no particular order

[Psileas]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-10, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'" [1]

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Robert-Allen-Cherry/dp/1572436727



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain





http://www.hofmag.com/content/view/150/29/1/1/



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082021/2/index.htm:



http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/05/classic-confrontation-wilt-versus-shaq.html




I already mentioned that Wilt held Kareem to .464 shooting over the course of their 28 career H2H meetings...and Wilt was well past his prime and playing on a surgically repaired knee. And, in their last ten H2H games, Chamberlain limited Kareem to .434 shooting (and .414 over the course of the last pivotal four games of the '72 WCF's.) In his LAST season, and over the course of six regular season games, Wilt outshot Kareem, .637 to .450.

Wilt also faced Nate Thurmond in three playoff series (66-67, 68-69, and 72-73), and held Nate to less than 40% shooting in each, with a low of .343. Meanwhile, Wilt shot over 50% in each, with a high of .560.

Against Russell, Wilt held him to .398 shooting over the course of ten games in the 59-60 season, in a year in which Russell shot his career high of .467. In the 66-67 ECF's, Chamberlain limited Russell to .358 shooting, in a year in which Russell shot .454. In one game in the '65 season, Wilt also blanked Russell, holding him to an 0-14 game.

Walt Bellamy shot .541 in the '67-68 regular season, but in the playoffs that season, and against Chamberlain, he shot .421.


Blocked shots? Take a look at this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

I'd rep this if I could.
Just to add some info, I've tried to keep as many stats as possible from both him and Russell and, from the info I've gathered from their playoff games, I've counted around 400 blocked shots in about 50 scattered playoff games for Wilt (most of them from the '67-'73 period). The average was a little below 8. Now, his overall average is likely smaller, because those stats were gathered from exceptional games, but I still expect a total of maybe around 1,000 blocked shots in 160 playoff games for Wilt.
I did the same for Russell, but up to now, I haven't found as many games. Maybe 25 or so, with his average in these games being a little above 8.

Wilt's 23-block game against the Suns was mentioned in a 1969 SI volume, as well.

[G.O.A.T]

I'd rep this if I could.
Just to add some info, I've tried to keep as many stats as possible from both him and Russell and, from the info I've gathered from their playoff games, I've counted around 400 blocked shots in about 50 scattered playoff games for Wilt (most of them from the '67-'73 period). The average was a little below 8. Now, his overall average is likely smaller, because those stats were gathered from exceptional games, but I still expect a total of maybe around 1,000 blocked shots in 160 playoff games for Wilt.
I did the same for Russell, but up to now, I haven't found as many games. Maybe 25 or so, with his average in these games being a little above 8.

Wilt's 23-block game against the Suns was mentioned in a 1969 SI volume, as well.

Interesting research, I think Russell was the more prolific shot blocker until about 1963 when I think Wilt started to focused more on defense and Russell's athleticism was leveling off with the rest of the league.

For the 1957-58 season, through the NY Times and Boston Globe pay archives I was able to find block shot numbers in 43 games from Russell in those game his reported block totals range from 3 to 18 (one and a half dozen was how it was written) His average in 9.7 in those games. Based on this I think it's safe to assume he never averaged double figure blocks for a season (as I once thought he may have) But seven to nine a game seems possible at his peak. By 1966 a lot of people started talking about how Wilt was blocking "even more shots than Russell" I am not sure if that means Russell at his peak of shot blocking, or just at that moment.

The thing to remember is that when Russell entered the league, their were no real shot blockers. Players took lay-ups for granted, didn't have the same mid-range game or pull jumpers, floaters that players later developed to counter shot blocking. Russell "ended the careers" of Arnie Risen, Larry Foust, Neil Johnston, the so-called below the rim centers. He eliminated the hook shot for players under 6'10", by the time Wilt got to the NBA, there were probably far fewer easy shots to block.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=jlauber]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain



I'd rep this if I could.
Just to add some info, I've tried to keep as many stats as possible from both him and Russell and, from the info I've gathered from their playoff games, I've counted around 400 blocked shots in about 50 scattered playoff games for Wilt (most of them from the '67-'73 period). The average was a little below 8. Now, his overall average is likely smaller, because those stats were gathered from exceptional games, but I still expect a total of maybe around 1,000 blocked shots in 160 playoff games for Wilt.
I did the same for Russell, but up to now, I haven't found as many games. Maybe 25 or so, with his average in these games being a little above 8.

Wilt's 23-block game against the Suns was mentioned in a 1969 SI volume, as well.

Regarding Chamberlain's blocks, it appears that the majority of evidence points to Wilt not only being the greatest shot-blocker of all time, but perhaps by a solid margin over Russell, who was undoubtably the next best.

I received an email from a poster here, and for the sake of his privacy, I won't mention his name...but take it for what it is worth (and I have no reason to doubt his authenticity), but in it he claims to have 22 recorded games from Wilt's 71-72 season. In those game, Chamberlain averaged 8.3 bpg.

Not only that, but he also mentions some other remarkable games with dates. Here again, I can't substantiate these block numbers, but I see no reason to not believe him. On 11-4-60, Wilt had a recorded 44 point, 39 rebound game...and he claims that Chamberlain also had 22 blocks in that game. And, in a game on 11-4-59, Chamberlain put up a 41 point, 40 rebound game...and a quote from that game was, "he blocked so many shots that the official statistician lost count." According to him, he believes that Wilt may have swatted as many as 30 shots in that game.

He also listed these games:

On 3-18-68, Chamberlain put up the well documented 53 point, 32 rebound, 14 assist game against LA. He states that Wilt also had 24 blocks and 11 steals in that same game! And in Chamberlain's record double-triple-double game against Detroit in 1968 (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists), he had Wilt with 14 blocks and 7 steals.

Here again, I can't fully verify those numbers, and if he wants to respond to this post, I would certainly welcome it, but if they are correct, it just adds to Wilt's already astonishing legacy. In any case, we do KNOW that Pollack had Wilt with at least one game of 25 blocks, and we do KNOW that he recorded 23 blocks on 12-25-68.

IMHO, Chamberlain, at his BEST, was the greatest defensive center in NBA history. However, I suspect that his defense was under-rated for much of his career, simply because he was such an overwhelming offensive player. Russell may have had more of an overall team impact, and he certainly contained Chamberlain as well as anyone in his era, but Wilt still had near 40 ppg SEASONS against him, as well as FULL SEASONS of as much as .549 shooting against him (and at least one entire post-season of .556...with potentially other post-seasons as high.) I suspect that Wilt probably shot close to 50% against Russell in their 142 H2H meetings, and I also suspect, given the numbers that we do have, that Russell may very well have shot somewhere around 40% against Wilt (or less), and on far less attempts.

And as great as Thurmond was against Wilt, the fact was, that Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting from his 66-67 season on. Nate was a rookie in the 63-64 season, and since he played with Wilt that season, he did not have to guard him. So, all we really have to go on is from mid-way thru the 64-65 season thru the 65-66 season, and even in those years, Nate missed some their H2H games due to injury. BUT, we do have at least a couple of games in which Chamberlain put up a 45 point game against Thurmond (holding Nate to 13 points), and another of 38 (with 31 rebounds.) Furthermore, in Wilt's 66-67 season, in a year in which he averaged 14.2 FGAs per game, he had one game against Thurmond in which he scored 30 points, with 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks....AND, Wilt was asked by Hannum to shoot in the second half of that game, and he responded with 24 points.

As for the Kareem-Wilt matchups,...unfortunately, Wilt only faced Kareem in one game before Chamberlain suffered that devastating knee injury. Granted, it was Kareem's rookie year, but it also must be noted that Wilt was no longer the dominant player that he had been in the mid-60's, nor the offensive force of the early 60's. In that game, he outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him, 9-14 to 9-21. In the '71 WCF's, Wilt basically matched Kareem at the offensive end, and outrebounded him. And, even in his last season (72-73), when he was averaging about 10 FGAs per game, Chamberlain outscored Kareem in one game, 24-22, whil outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27. One can only wonder how a prime Wilt would have fared against Kareem.

[Stuckey]

give bruce bowen a slot for playing great d in an era without handchecking

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=jlauber]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


Hard to argue your case... . Wilt might have been the one guy that had better timing than Hakeem and that is evident after the knee surgery which dims the reflect muscles in the legs. Lets be honest, nobody else is stopping Kareem like he did. And he was blocking shots and keeping it inbounds - which they acted like Russell was the only one that did such.

Wilt, himself, stated that Russell had better timing. However, as great a leaper as Russell was (a world-class high-jumper), Wilt's overall apex was higher (not surprising since he was 4 inches taller, and probably with a slightly longer wingspan.) That, coupled with his enormous strength and bulk, allowed Wilt to dominate the glass, and the lane.

I have long maintained that Wilt would have been a near unanimous DPOY in his 71-72 season (in a league with Thurmond, Reed, Unseld, and Kareem), and he was in fact, first-team all-defense (as he would be in his next season, which was his last.) Those that played against him that season, as well as his coach, Bill Sharman, would tell you that he played as dominant defense that season, as Russell ever did. Having said that, though, I suspect that in his physical prime, circa 66-68, Wilt was probably an even greater defender. Here again, he was such a gifted offensive force, that I suspect that his defense in those years was very under-rated.

[jlauber]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/01/06/all.time/


Philadelphia 76ers single-season records:

Points: Chamberlain, 2,649 (33.5 ppg), 1965-66
Rebounds: Chamberlain, 1,957 (24.2 rpg), 1966-67
Blocked shots: Shawn Bradley, 274 (3.34 bpg), 1994-95

Three-point-three-four? Wilt used to block 3.34 shots before breakfast, undoubtedly with some appreciative lady nearby, scrambling the eggs. "I came into the NBA as a defensive player," Chamberlain said during the NBA at 50 anniversary season of 1996-97. "I used to go up and grab balls in the air. Everyone was afraid of my defensive game more so than my scoring game. ... For every one shot that Bill Russell blocked, I probably blocked three."

Russell generally is regarded as the best shot-blocker in NBA history, even if the stats don't exist to call him the most prolific. Tales of the Boston Celtics' Hall of Fame center and his swats live mostly in legend, with limited newsreel footage, like Walter Johnson's fastball or Jesse Owens' foot speed. The whole art of the controlled block -- tipping an opponent's shot to yourself or to a teammate rather than smacking it into the third row -- originated with Russell. He is still around to talk about it, of course, but he rarely chooses to. That leaves it to others.

"I asked Russell, whom I consider the best of all shot-blockers, if he had any idea how many blocks he may have averaged in a season," Hall of Fame coach Jack Ramsay wrote to me in an e-mail Monday. "He said he had no idea. I suggested double digits, like 10 or 11. He said that maybe he did that in his early years, but fewer later on -- because teams stopped taking the ball to the rim again him."

Ramsay recalled a game against his 76ers team when Russell blocked Luke Jackson five times on the same possession ("Russ remembered that, too," Ramsay said). Also, he recalled that Harvey Pollack, the one-of-a-kind Philadelphia stats guru and the keeper of Chamberlain's flame of dominance, used to have a member of his crew pick out an unofficial category and track it for an entire game to have something different for the reporters. "He remembers such a game when Wilt had 25 blocks," Ramsay said. "And Harvey is very accurate and trustworthy."

You can still find fans walking around who were present when Chamberlain allegedly blocked 20 shots in consecutive games of the Lakers' '72 playoff series against Milwaukee -- 11 of the blocks supposedly at Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's expense when he was 25 and Wilt was 35. Late referee Earl Strom used to tell people that Chamberlain and Russell probably averaged about eight blocks each in their prime, which would have gotten them to Hakeem Olajuwon's "all-time" record -- that is, his post-'73, modern mark of 3,830 -- in less than six full seasons.

[Psileas]

GOAT, it seems like you have to be a full member of Google Archives to view this stuff, right? I mean, I know the NY Times are not free to view, and neither are most of the newspapars of the era that had boxscores (not that this mattered for shot blocking, just mentioning it), but I didn't find that much after searching the archive phrases. Is there any other similar site for searching?

Jlauber, I find some of these numbers outlandish. These references remind me of an alleged game of Jerry West where he was claimed to get an unofficial quad-double, while scoring about 44 points, but I couldn't find more on this, neither find whether it was even an NBA game. Does this guy actually own videos from these 1960 or 1968 games? If not, where did he find the references?
Sometimes, I wonder whether the figures I read about Wilt's and Russell's shot blocking were taken from games when they did block a high, for their standards, number of shots or they are just normal numbers of blocked shots taken from the games when somebody bothered to count them. Because, let's not forget, since blocked shots were not officially counted, this means that most statisticians, let alone journalists, wouldn't care to count them. Maybe if they were a lot, say, about 15, they might only add that "Wilt/Russell had 30 points, 30 rebounds and many blocked shots", leaving to our imagination what "many" really means.
Similarly, for GOAT's reference to Russell's 1958 season, did they mention Russell's blocked shots in those games because they considered those games worthwhile from this aspect or because they only bothered to count blocks in these games? If the first is true, then there would be no reason to mention Russell's 3 or 4-blocked shot games for obvious reasons, which means that he might actually be close to 10 bpg for the whole season, and not just these 43 games.

[jlauber]

GOAT, it seems like you have to be a full member of Google Archives to view this stuff, right? I mean, I know the NY Times are not free to view, and neither are most of the newspapars of the era that had boxscores (not that this mattered for shot blocking, just mentioning it), but I didn't find that much after searching the archive phrases. Is there any other similar site for searching?

Jlauber, I find some of these numbers outlandish. These references remind me of an alleged game of Jerry West where he was claimed to get an unofficial quad-double, while scoring about 44 points, but I couldn't find more on this, neither find whether it was even an NBA game. Does this guy actually own videos from these 1960 or 1968 games? If not, where did he find the references?
Sometimes, I wonder whether the figures I read about Wilt's and Russell's shot blocking were taken from games when they did block a high, for their standards, number of shots or they are just normal numbers of blocked shots taken from the games when somebody bothered to count them. Because, let's not forget, since blocked shots were not officially counted, this means that most statisticians, let alone journalists, wouldn't care to count them. Maybe if they were a lot, say, about 15, they might only add that "Wilt/Russell had 30 points, 30 rebounds and many blocked shots", leaving to our imagination what "many" really means.
Similarly, for GOAT's reference to Russell's 1958 season, did they mention Russell's blocked shots in those games because they considered those games worthwhile from this aspect or because they only bothered to count blocks in these games? If the first is true, then there would be no reason to mention Russell's 3 or 4-blocked shot games for obvious reasons, which means that he might actually be close to 10 bpg for the whole season, and not just these 43 games.

I agree that some of those games seem hard to believe. Of course, with Chamberlain, even the ACTUAL numbers are difficult to accept. I certainly can't vouch for their authenticity, and I have never read them, either. Wilt's late season game against the Lakers was staggering enough, without adding the possibility of 24 blocks and 11 steals ( 53 points, 32 rebounds, and 14 assists.) In any case, I listened to every game in Wilt's 71-72 season, and I really think the norm for him was around 8 blocks per game. Rosen lists him with a high game of 15 that season, but I seem to recall a 17 block game (maybe against Lanier and the Pistons), but I am going on a fading memory.

We do KNOW however, that Wilt had a RECORDED game of 23 blocks. We also have Pollack, who is perhaps the most respected statistician of all time, stating that Wilt had 25 blocks in one game. And, there is documentation of Wilt putting up a 43 point, 28 rebound, 17 block game in his very FIRST NBA game. Of course, there is also a well documented 24 point, 32 rebound, 13 assist, 12 block game in game one of the '67 ECF's (and against Russell.) Pollack also had seasonal educated estimates of as high as 10 bpg, too.

And blocking something like 15 of Kareem's sky-hooks in the '72 WCF's is still an amazing accomplishment...especially at 35 years old and on a surgically repaired knee.

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT, it seems like you have to be a full member of Google Archives to view this stuff, right? I mean, I know the NY Times are not free to view, and neither are most of the newspapars of the era that had boxscores (not that this mattered for shot blocking, just mentioning it), but I didn't find that much after searching the archive phrases. Is there any other similar site for searching?

Sometimes, I wonder whether the figures I read about Wilt's and Russell's shot blocking were taken from games when they did block a high, for their standards, number of shots or they are just normal numbers of blocked shots taken from the games when somebody bothered to count them. Because, let's not forget, since blocked shots were not officially counted, this means that most statisticians, let alone journalists, wouldn't care to count them. Maybe if they were a lot, say, about 15, they might only add that "Wilt/Russell had 30 points, 30 rebounds and many blocked shots", leaving to our imagination what "many" really means.
Similarly, for GOAT's reference to Russell's 1958 season, did they mention Russell's blocked shots in those games because they considered those games worthwhile from this aspect or because they only bothered to count blocks in these games? If the first is true, then there would be no reason to mention Russell's 3 or 4-blocked shot games for obvious reasons, which means that he might actually be close to 10 bpg for the whole season, and not just these 43 games.

A lot of papers have monthly access fees for their full archives. I subscribe to more than a dozen of them and write them off every year.

Another good way to find stuff is to visit libraries that have a significant archive system. I found a number of articles at a Library at Michigan State that I had never seen before in years of sweeping the web.

Another factor when estimating the blocked shot numbers is the way writers reacted to it and wrote about it. Like you said, because it wasn;t a regular stat, the need was not there to count them exactly, so you get a lot of "Russell turned back numerous Piston shots" or "Wilt blocked three sometime four shots in one possession for the frustrated Knicks." And then you get no final game block totals. I read an article about the 1961 Finals that says Russell blocked more than a dozen Hawk shots. Is that literal, did he have 13 or more blocks, or was the writer just expressing the impact he had on the game?

[Stuckey]

rodman and russel are the two best defensive players

amazing that a 6'9 guy can guard beasts

[jlauber]

A lot of papers have monthly access fees for their full archives. I subscribe to more than a dozen of them and write them off every year.

Another good way to find stuff is to visit libraries that have a significant archive system. I found a number of articles at a Library at Michigan State that I had never seen before in years of sweeping the web.

Another factor when estimating the blocked shot numbers is the way writers reacted to it and wrote about it. Like you said, because it wasn;t a regular stat, the need was not there to count them exactly, so you get a lot of "Russell turned back numerous Piston shots" or "Wilt blocked three sometime four shots in one possession for the frustrated Knicks." And then you get no final game block totals. I read an article about the 1961 Finals that says Russell blocked more than a dozen Hawk shots. Is that literal, did he have 13 or more blocks, or was the writer just expressing the impact he had on the game?

I watched many of Wilt's games, and listened to many more. I have no doubt that he had a TON of 10+ block games. In fact, with both Russell and Wilt, I think that many of their game stats and write-ups ignored their "routine" blocks of 10 or so. Chick Hearn used to give his block totals after almost every broadcast, and even I became numb to 8-9 blocks. It was just another day at the office for Chamberlain.

Obviously, the game is much different today. Considerably less shots, and more shots from greater distances. Still, as G.O.A.T noted above, both Russell and Wilt, at times, had multiple blocks on the SAME possessions. I just have to believe that those two would easily get more than one per quarter even in today's NBA. IMHO, in their primes, and playing today, perhaps 5-6 bpg. And if an Eaton could get 5.6 in the 80's, I am convinced that Chamberlain and Russell would have had considerably more back then, as well.

[alexandreben]

The best defensive players can never be mesured without considering rules and eras, some of the very best defensive players can be fouled out of the game within the first periode had they played under today's rules at referees' mercy...

Although here's my list:

C:
1. Wilt(a later version, even Russell admitted Wilt did a better job played in his role)
2. Russell(quicker and more cunning defender compare to Wilt and Thurmond)
3. Thurmond(stronger than Russell makes him a better big-man defender, Wilt said Thurmond was the best defender gurading him)
---------

Forward:
1. Duncan(I think Duncan is a top defensive PF despite all eras)
2. Pippen(he can shut down 4 or 5 position players, no doubt the GOAT defensive SF despite all eras)
---------

Guard:
1. Jordan(GOAT defensive shooting guard of all eras)
2. Payton(forget about Frazier, based on the videos I've watched, Payton is a better defender than Frazier)
---------

Other individual defensive players worth of mentioning:
Akeem, Moncrief, Bird, Rodman, Mutombo, Mourning, Wallace, Laimbeer, Robinson

[alexandreben]

The thing to remember is that when Russell entered the league, their were no real shot blockers. Players took lay-ups for granted, didn't have the same mid-range game or pull jumpers, floaters that players later developed to counter shot blocking. Russell "ended the careers" of Arnie Risen, Larry Foust, Neil Johnston, the so-called below the rim centers. He eliminated the hook shot for players under 6'10", by the time Wilt got to the NBA, there were probably far fewer easy shots to block.
This is very post although I won't say Russell ended their careers or shut them down, they did have their game, the 6'8" Johnston did have a 50pts game and won three scoring tittles, he averaged a season 24pts 15rbs in his peak if I remembered correctly

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not sure where this ridiculous notion that Jordan wasn't an elite, all-league defender during the second three-peat is coming from. Even in 1998, at age 35, no other guard save perhaps Payton had a larger defensive impact on games than Jordan - forget about 1996 and 1997. Watch the Pacers ECF series in 1998 for evidence of this: tons of deflections and disruption, owning Jalen Rose repeatedly on defense throughout the series, switching onto the lightning quick Travis Best when he was killing Chicago and shutting him down, blanking Reggie Miller for quarters at a time when switched onto him (including the crucial 4th quarter of game 7), making game-saving blocks as he did at the end of game 6, breaking up 3-on-1 fastbreaks singlehandedly - the list goes on. I have a game on VHS from 1998 vs. Toronto where MJ had like 34 points (12-13 in the 4th) and the game-winner, and he also had 5 steals and 3 blocks as well as numerous other deflections and intimidations resulting in bad plays - he completely disrupted the Raptors' entire post offense singlehandedly, and held Billups to like 5 points on 2-12 shooting or something to boot. Dude was a beast defensively, even in '98 - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

No guard besides Payton deserved a nod over him in any year during the second three-peat, and Payton made it anyway. A couple of guys (most notably Eddie Jones) were comparable in terms of man-to-man defense, but no one was even in his universe as a team/help defender, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact. No contest really for anyone who understands the game.

[ginobli2311]

yep.

interesting side note:

i'm watching the 93 series against the knicks right now and the announcers refer to jordan as the best defender in the league as if its not a question. fratello says it like 3 times in one game. he refers to pippen as a top 3 or so defender in the league.

not saying he was better than pippen or anything, but just a little insight into the thoughts of the moment...so to speak back in 93 for those he forget. it was pretty much common opinion that jordan was the best or right there with the best defensive players in the league.


totally agree with oldschool. while jordan's man to man defense did slip a little in the 2nd three peat overall. he still could muster up the ability to lock down a guy if needed. and his team defense remained the best in the league on the perimeter in my opinion.

[jlauber]

yep.

interesting side note:

i'm watching the 93 series against the knicks right now and the announcers refer to jordan as the best defender in the league as if its not a question. fratello says it like 3 times in one game. he refers to pippen as a top 3 or so defender in the league.

not saying he was better than pippen or anything, but just a little insight into the thoughts of the moment...so to speak back in 93 for those he forget. it was pretty much common opinion that jordan was the best or right there with the best defensive players in the league.


totally agree with oldschool. while jordan's man to man defense did slip a little in the 2nd three peat overall. he still could muster up the ability to lock down a guy if needed. and his team defense remained the best in the league on the perimeter in my opinion.

Jordan, like Wilt, was so good offensively that his defense was somewhat under-rated. Still, 10 times a first-team defender speaks volumes about just how good he was. I don't see how anyone can question his defensive skills.

[OldSchoolBBall]

yep.

interesting side note:

i'm watching the 93 series against the knicks right now and the announcers refer to jordan as the best defender in the league as if its not a question. fratello says it like 3 times in one game. he refers to pippen as a top 3 or so defender in the league.

not saying he was better than pippen or anything, but just a little insight into the thoughts of the moment...so to speak back in 93 for those he forget. it was pretty much common opinion that jordan was the best or right there with the best defensive players in the league.


totally agree with oldschool. while jordan's man to man defense did slip a little in the 2nd three peat overall. he still could muster up the ability to lock down a guy if needed. and his team defense remained the best in the league on the perimeter in my opinion.

Jordan was the Bulls' best defender until he retired in '93. He was voted the DPOY by coaches in 1993, and was considered by many (including Jerry West, Kevin Johnson, and Phil Jackson) to be the league's best defensive player PERIOD up until he retired. Phil Jackson called Jordan "the best defensive player of his generation" some time in the mid-90's ('93-95ish).

[its_this_big]

Top 10 (In chronological order)

Bill Russell
Walt Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Hakeem Olujuwon
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Tim Duncan
Bruce Bowen

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]

Wilt, himself, stated that Russell had better timing. However, as great a leaper as Russell was (a world-class high-jumper), Wilt's overall apex was higher (not surprising since he was 4 inches taller, and probably with a slightly longer wingspan.) That, coupled with his enormous strength and bulk, allowed Wilt to dominate the glass, and the lane.



I don't know if it was Psilias or Phila that said Russell had a higher standing reach than Wilt - due to his long arms??? From watching the tapes Russell had a lightening quick cat leap that seemed to shock the shooter on many ocassions. After reading GOATS post it makes sense - that shot blocks was a new phenom. You could tell that Russell studied and knew release points. Many times he got to the ball much earlier on the shooters release than Wilt. This is why Russell would have been a great shot blocker in any era. In the video below skip to the one minute mark.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40iKnaUjz_w

At times Wilt seemed to actually wind up. In that video above (I linked it below), Wilt catches or blocks shots at the peak of their shot as defenders adjusted as he came about. Not the wisest way to go about blocking and Russell knew that. However, to catch Jabbars hook its all about timing. To catch a shot at the peak on its rise is about timing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

Russell was superior in knowing his opponent, angling off his opponent, seemed to be quicker off of his feet, and didn't wind up, What do you see as Wilt's attribute that allowed for so many blocks?

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=jlauber]

I don't know if it was Psilias or Phila that said Russell had a higher standing reach than Wilt - due to his long arms??? From watching the tapes Russell had a lightening quick cat leap that seemed to shock the shooter on many ocassions. After reading GOATS post it makes sense - that shot blocks was a new phenom. You could tell that Russell studied and knew release points. Many times he got to the ball much earlier on the shooters release than Wilt. This is why Russell would have been a great shot blocker in any era. In the video below skip to the one minute mark.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40iKnaUjz_w

At times Wilt seemed to actually wind up. In that video above (I linked it below), Wilt catches or blocks shots at the peak of their shot as defenders adjusted as he came about. Not the wisest way to go about blocking and Russell knew that. However, to catch Jabbars hook its all about timing. To catch a shot at the peak on its rise is about timing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

Russell was superior in knowing his opponent, angling off his opponent, seemed to be quicker off of his feet, and didn't wind up, What do you see as Wilt's attribute that allowed for so many blocks?

I believe PHILA posted something to the effect that Russell had a higher standing reach than Kareem. Not sure about Wilt, though, since Wilt had a 92" wingspan. Both Russell and Wilt were outstanding leapers, and Russell had a higher high-jump.

Chamberlain's shot blocking seemed to be more impressive from the standpoint of blocking shots at their apex, though. From everything that I have read, there has probably never been an NBA player that reached the heights that Wilt did. Dunking on 12 ft. rims, touching the top of backboards, rules put in place to prevent the dunking of FT's, etc.

And most evidence seems to indicate that Wilt was the greatest shot-blocker in NBA history, as well. Pollack had Chamberlain with SEASONS of averaging double-digit blocks, as well as a game with 25 rejections. And, of course, blocking some 15 "sky-hooks" against Kareem in the '72 WCF's was a monumental achievement, particularly from a 35 year-old, at over 300 lbs, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.

He was actually a great leaper even AFTER he retired from the NBA...

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/w/wi/wilt_chamberlain.htm


*While Chamberlain was an ABA coach, he once came on the court to find his players complaining that the ball was stuck near the 24-second clock and saying that they needed a ladder to get the ball. He said, "put the money on the floor", took off his dress shoes, jumped up and knocked the ball loose from the clock, 12 feet off the floor above the backboard.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not mine, he got owned by hakeem.

And? You want to see the numbers Dirk put up vs Garnett's Wolves when the Mavs swept Minnesota in 2002?

33.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 52.6 FG%, 72.7 3P%, 88.9 FT%, 2 TO

Funny, how David is singled out for one series.

I'd rank Robinson as one of the top 3 defensive big men of the last 20 years. The others being Hakeem and Duncan.

Most of the top defenders have been big men, Big Ben, Mutombo and Mourning are also up there. Ewing is getting underrated here as well.

As far as perimeter defenders(talking all around impact, prime Jordan('90-'92) and prime Pippen are at the top of the list.



I'd rep this if I could.
Just to add some info, I've tried to keep as many stats as possible from both him and Russell and, from the info I've gathered from their playoff games, I've counted around 400 blocked shots in about 50 scattered playoff games for Wilt (most of them from the '67-'73 period). The average was a little below 8. Now, his overall average is likely smaller, because those stats were gathered from exceptional games, but I still expect a total of maybe around 1,000 blocked shots in 160 playoff games for Wilt.
I did the same for Russell, but up to now, I haven't found as many games. Maybe 25 or so, with his average in these games being a little above 8.

Wilt's 23-block game against the Suns was mentioned in a 1969 SI volume, as well.

It seems like there are more numbers available from Wilt's last 2 seasons. Here's what I've found from the '71-'72 regular season.

Nov 7 1971 LAL 103 NYK 96
22 rebounds, 6 blocks

Nov 14 1971 LAL 128 BOS 115
31 rebounds, 13 blocks

Nov 25 1971 LAL 139 SEA 115
17 points, 12 blocks

Dec 3 1971 LAL 131 PHI 116
8 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks

Dec 12 1971 LAL 104 ATL 95
24 rebounds, 9 blocks

Dec 14 1971 LAL 129 POR 114
24 points, 18 rebounds, 8 assists, 7 blocks

Dec 17 1971 LAL 129 GSW 99
18 rebounds and 6 blocks

Dec 19 1971 LAL 154 PHI 132
32 points, 34 rebounds, 12 blocks

Dec 30 1971 LAL 122 SEA 106
24 rebounds and 7 blocks

Jan 5 1972 LAL 113 CLE 103
10 points, 16 rebounds, 4 blocks(in the 4th quarter)

LAL beat ATL Jan 7 1972
8 blocks

Jan 14 1972 LAL 131 PHI 121
23 points, 20 rebounds, 6 blocks

Matt Goukas said Wilt blocked 8 shots per game, I don't know if that was just a number he threw out off the top of his head, but I wouldn't doubt it considering the block numbers he was putting up many games. Didn't you find an article that said Wilt averaged 5-6 blocks per game in his last season? Harvey Pollack is also convinced Wilt averaged a triple double in '62 with 10+ blocks per game.

Regarding Russell and Thurmond, from what I've read it seems that Russell's help/team defense was better, but Thurmond may have been the better post defender.

[DWRIGHTWAY]

give some love to ALON-ZO

[Deltron3030]

Mitch Richmond is in the conversation, probably not top 10 of all time but maybe top 10 defensive guards.

[jlauber]

And? You want to see the numbers Dirk put up vs Garnett's Wolves when the Mavs swept Minnesota in 2002?

33.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 52.6 FG%, 72.7 3P%, 88.9 FT%, 2 TO

Funny, how David is singled out for one series.

I'd rank Robinson as one of the top 3 defensive big men of the last 20 years. The others being Hakeem and Duncan.

Most of the top defenders have been big men, Big Ben, Mutombo and Mourning are also up there. Ewing is getting underrated here as well.

As far as perimeter defenders(talking all around impact, prime Jordan('90-'92) and prime Pippen are at the top of the list.



It seems like there are more numbers available from Wilt's last 2 seasons. Here's what I've found from the '71-'72 regular season.

Nov 7 1971 LAL 103 NYK 96
22 rebounds, 6 blocks

Nov 14 1971 LAL 128 BOS 115
31 rebounds, 13 blocks

Nov 25 1971 LAL 139 SEA 115
17 points, 12 blocks

Dec 3 1971 LAL 131 PHI 116
8 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks

Dec 12 1971 LAL 104 ATL 95
24 rebounds, 9 blocks

Dec 14 1971 LAL 129 POR 114
24 points, 18 rebounds, 8 assists, 7 blocks

Dec 17 1971 LAL 129 GSW 99
18 rebounds and 6 blocks

Dec 19 1971 LAL 154 PHI 132
32 points, 34 rebounds, 12 blocks

Dec 30 1971 LAL 122 SEA 106
24 rebounds and 7 blocks

Jan 5 1972 LAL 113 CLE 103
10 points, 16 rebounds, 4 blocks(in the 4th quarter)

LAL beat ATL Jan 7 1972
8 blocks

Jan 14 1972 LAL 131 PHI 121
23 points, 20 rebounds, 6 blocks

Matt Goukas said Wilt blocked 8 shots per game, I don't know if that was just a number he threw out off the top of his head, but I wouldn't doubt it considering the block numbers he was putting up many games. Didn't you find an article that said Wilt averaged 5-6 blocks per game in his last season? Harvey Pollack is also convinced Wilt averaged a triple double in '62 with 10+ blocks per game.

Regarding Russell and Thurmond, from what I've read it seems that Russell's help/team defense was better, but Thurmond may have been the better post defender.

Great post.

To add to that, ...Wilt was a GREAT INDIVIDUAL defender. I have posted his first encounter with Bellamy, who came into that game with a 30 ppg average. Chamberlain stuck to him like glue, and not only could Bellamy not score, Wilt was blocking most of his shots. On top of that, the two faced each other in the '67-68 playoffs. Bellamy had shot .541 during the regular season. Against Chamberlain in that playoff series, he shot .421.

And I have also pointed out how he held Kareem, in their 28 H2H meetings, to nearly 100 points under his career FG%, (and well below that over the course of their last ten H2H games... .434.) Not only that, but remarkably, he was blocking something like five of Kareem's shots, per game, in those H2H games. And keep in mind, that Wilt was well past his peak against Kareem.

And in his 142 H2H games with Russell, in the games, series, or even SEASONS, in which we have their known FG%, Wilt held Russell WAY below his normal shooting numbers. In the ten of their 11 H2H games in the 59-60 season (we don't have the numbers from that 11th game), Wilt limited Russell, who had a career best .467 that season, to .398 (while nearly scoring 40 ppg against Russell, himself, on .465 shooting.) In the 63-64 Finals, we don't have the FG% numbers, but Russell only shot .356 in his ten post-season games, and five of those games were against Wilt. In the '65 post-season, Russell shredded the Lakers in the Finals, averaging 18 ppg on .702 shooting. Against Wilt in the playoffs, he averaged 15 ppg on .451 shooting. In the '66 Finals, against LA, Russell averaged 23.6 ppg. Against Wilt in the previous series, he averaged 14.0 ppg. In the '66-67 season, Russell shot .454. In the '67 ECF's, against Wilt, he shot .358.

And, once again, against Thurmond, the two went against each other in three different playoff series (66-67, 68-69, and 72-73.) In EVERY series, Wilt held Thurmond to under 40% shooting, with a low of .343 in the '67 Finals. Meanwhile, Wilt never shot less than 50% against Thurmond in ANY of those series, including a high of .560 in the '67 Finals.

As far as TEAM defense goes, Chamberlain's coach in his 71-72 season (and 72-73 season as well), Bill Sharman, designed his entire defensive philosophy to funnel the opposition into Wilt. The result was that the Lakers held their opponents to .432 shooting that year (while shooting .490 themselves.) And, take a look at some of the recaps earlier in Wilt's career. In game seven of the '62 ECF's, Sam Jones, the great Celtic guard, hit the game-winner over an outstretched Wilt. In Boston's game four, two point win, over Wilt's Warriors in the '64 Finals, I believe it is Heinsohn missing a shot near the end of the game, because Wilt had jumped out to defend it (however, Russell grabbed the rebound and scored the winning basket.) In the clinching game six win of the '67 Finals, it was Wilt who jumped out on Barry's last second effort to win the game, causing him to miss wildly.

Regarding blocked shots. I have never read of any games by Russell (or anyone else for that matter) with 20 blocks in a game. Pollack had Wilt with as many as 25, and on a nationally televised game in '68, (and with every block verified I believe), Wilt recorded 23 rejections. I have also been told that Wilt may have had at least two other games with over 20 blocks. And, as ShaqAttack pointed out, Pollack had Wilt with a SEASON of over 10 bpg. I also read somewhere where Chamberlain, only four months removed from major knee surgery, had 16 blocks against the Suns in a playoff game in 1970. And Rosen had him with a season high of 15 blocks in the 71-72 season (although I still believe that Chamberlain had a game against Detroit, and Bob Lanier, with 17 blocks.) We also KNOW that Chamberlain had a quad-double in the '67 ECF's, and against Russell, with a 24-32-13-12 game. From the majority of reading that I have done, Wilt is probably the all-time greatest shot blocker, and in fact, probably by a huge margin.

[NoEasy9]

Mitch Richmond is in the conversation, probably not top 10 of all time but maybe top 10 defensive guards.
I have a hard time believing someone who never made an all defensive team, is a top 10 defensive guard to ever play in the nba.

[LEFT4DEAD]

I have a hard time believing someone who never made an all defensive team, is a top 10 defensive guard to ever play in the nba.
**** that award. It has became a joke long time ago for me.

[CeltsGarlic]

**** that award. It has became a joke long time ago for me.

Rep'd

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=Psileas]

Regarding Chamberlain's blocks, it appears that the majority of evidence points to Wilt not only being the greatest shot-blocker of all time, but perhaps by a solid margin over Russell, who was undoubtably the next best.

I received an email from a poster here, and for the sake of his privacy, I won't mention his name...but take it for what it is worth (and I have no reason to doubt his authenticity), but in it he claims to have 22 recorded games from Wilt's 71-72 season. In those game, Chamberlain averaged 8.3 bpg.
It seems to hoover around this number in lesser examples (8 blocks per game). Amazing when you consider that this was post knee surgery.


Not only that, but he also mentions some other remarkable games with dates. Here again, I can't substantiate these block numbers, but I see no reason to not believe him. On 11-4-60, Wilt had a recorded 44 point, 39 rebound game...and he claims that Chamberlain also had 22 blocks in that game. And, in a game on 11-4-59, Chamberlain put up a 41 point, 40 rebound game...and a quote from that game was, "he blocked so many shots that the official statistician lost count." According to him, he believes that Wilt may have swatted as many as 30 shots in that game.

The footage I seen of Wilt and judging by how he looked I'd say '63- '67 and I was amazed by his activity level. I was too young to care about documenting and figured these things would be available... I don't know why they haven't even leaked out - minus people overseas putting some of them on youtube. Wilt was everywhere and claimed the middle. He really went after everything. Nearly every activity that happened in that 10 foot radius of the basket he had to be included in. Very different than anybody since. He was constantly in motion, intelligent productive motion. He was up for every challenge and took the job serious. Plus he took on every center responsibility and did it all with energy and pizzazzz. And he didn't neglect one responsibility in the process.

If you take the 40, 40 game above with 20 blocks right there you have a center jumping with serious intent at least 70 times more than likely a 90+ times. I don't know why that number seems very high to me. And did he really have to go after 30 - more than likely 40 - shots? That alone would have tired out 98 percent of all centers after Wilt. Much less the 40 rebounds. His mindset defensively (to attemp 30 plus bocks and 40 rebounds) is superior. His claiming the paint, going after everything near it, his ability and agility make him a top consideration of best DP ever.

Being that Wilt hardly ever sat out, no biggie since he worked harder than most guys playing 5 minutes, Wilt, probably without question, was doing more defensive acts in a year than anybody else.

*Note I only have Youtube recall of Russell who also had crazy activity level defensively. So be it, its not much that has gotten out to the public.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=jlauber]
It seems to hoover around this number in lesser examples (8 blocks per game). Amazing when you consider that this was post knee surgery.

The footage I seen of Wilt and judging by how he looked I'd say '63- '67 and I was amazed by his activity level. I was too young to care about documenting and figured these things would be available... I don't know why they haven't even leaked out - minus people overseas putting some of them on youtube. Wilt was everywhere and claimed the middle. He really went after everything. Nearly every activity that happened in that 10 foot radius of the basket he had to be included in. Very different than anybody since. He was constantly in motion, intelligent productive motion. He was up for every challenge and took the job serious. Plus he took on every center responsibility and did it all with energy and pizzazzz. And he didn't neglect one responsibility in the process.

If you take the 40, 40 game above with 20 blocks right there you have a center jumping with serious intent at least 70 times more than likely a 90+ times. I don't know why that number seems very high to me. And did he really have to go after 30 - more than likely 40 - shots? That alone would have tired out 98 percent of all centers after Wilt. Much less the 40 rebounds. His mindset defensively (to attemp 30 plus bocks and 40 rebounds) is superior. His claiming the paint, going after everything near it, his ability and agility make him a top consideration of best DP ever.

Being that Wilt hardly ever sat out, no biggie since he worked harder than most guys playing 5 minutes, Wilt, probably without question, was doing more defensive acts in a year than anybody else.

*Note I only have Youtube recall of Russell who also had crazy activity level defensively. So be it, its not much that has gotten out to the public.

What a fantastic perspective! I am amazed at how many observers just shrug their shoulders at Wilt's accomplishments. They will argue pace or era, yet, they seldom acknowledge that he was the ONLY guy doing it. The ridiculous posters will say that Wilt just dunked on 6-6 white nerds. Now, if those same posters want to claim that Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, Lucas, West, Oscar, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, and the many other's of the 60's were crappy, then at least they are being consistent. BUT, they had also better diminish what Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, McAdoo, and Kareem did as well, since Chamberlain generally outplayed them all, too...even well after his prime.

But, throw out the pure numbers, and even the staggering differentials that Wilt had over his contemporaries...and think about what Pointguard just posted. Here was a prime Wilt, playing nearly every minute of every game, scoring 40-50 ppg, grabbing 20-27 rpg, blocking 8-10+ shots per game, handing out 4-8 apg, and not only shutting his opposing center down, or at the very least, holding him WAY below his normal FG%...but he was defending the entire defensive end of the floor, as well. Even into his mid-30's he was playing 43-44 mpg, as well as 47 mpg in the playoffs, blocking 8-10 shots, grabbing 20+ rebounds, holding his opposing center to perhaps as much as 100 points below their normal shooting, and defending the lane as only perhaps Russell ever did.

Once again, I actually witnessed MANY of Wilt's games, and he was a FORCE on the defensive end. IMHO, only Russell was better, and even then, a prime Wilt may very well have been more dominant defensively.