Will Cleveland have the biggest drop off in wins in NBA history?

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavs are going to win 20-25 games this season. Last year they won 60+. They could see a drop off of 40 wins this season. What's the biggest drop in wins from one season to the next in NBA history?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

What was the Bulls record after MJ/Pippen/Phil left?

[Stoney]

What was the Bulls record after MJ/Pippen/Phil left?

13-37, but as the record suggets, that was in the lockout- shortened 99 season so it's rather difficult to compare to a 82 game season, and remember that Rodman also left them that season

[Bigsmoke]

they gotta beat the 97 Spurs

[NauruDude]

They gotta win games to get to 20 wins, that is something they cant unless the other teams fields 3 or less players.

[jbryan1984]

13-37, but as the record suggets, that was in the lockout- shortened 99 season so it's rather difficult to compare to a 82 game season, and remember that Rodman also left them that season



You could go by percentages. That year, the Bulls finished with .260. The Cavs are on the verge for the worst record, I think even the Kings will sneak by them.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

You could go by percentages. That year, the Bulls finished with .260. The Cavs are on the verge for the worst record, I think even the Kings will sneak by them.


Wow. Bulls lost Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Phil Jackson. Cavaliers are essentially the same team except Lebron. Lebron is amazing.

[guy]

Wow. Bulls lost Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Phil Jackson. Cavaliers are essentially the same team except Lebron. Lebron is amazing.

Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.

[asdf1990]

Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.

Lol mike brown.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.

:roll:

[Kurosawa0]

You add Z, Shaq, Delonte and Mike Brown to this team, they still wouldn't win 30 games.

Shaq would've already been hurt and checked out for the season by now.

[guy]

:roll:

What's so funny? That's 3 of their best players and the coach that the team was accustomed to for 5 seasons. I wasn't trying to equate it with the Bulls dip and take anything away from Lebron. I'm just saying there were significant changes other then Lebron. A team goes through that many changes, there almost a completely different team is my point.

[konex]

Apart from the obvious void left by Bron, they are having a hard time adjusting to playing w/o the refs on their side every game..

[dankok8]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-PAX-WE-TRUST
Wow. Bulls lost Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Phil Jackson. Cavaliers are essentially the same team except Lebron. Lebron is amazing.


Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.

Pretty much just Lebron... Delonte barely played last year, Byron Scott > Mike Brown, and Shaq/Z are replaced with Varejao/Powe which is isnt much of a dropoff since Varejao is actually a great defender and Powe can actually move.

[ginobli2311]

What's so funny? That's 3 of their best players and the coach that the team was accustomed to for 5 seasons. I wasn't trying to equate it with the Bulls dip and take anything away from Lebron. I'm just saying there were significant changes other then Lebron. A team goes through that many changes, there almost a completely different team is my point.

its clearly not the exact same team.

however, jamison playing helps a lot this year. don't forget he hardly played in the regular season last year and he's a proven regular season guy.

z/shaq/delonte all missed significant time and the cavs didn't fall off at all. delonte was actually a huge distraction last year and provided very little.

some quick facts:

mo missed 13 games
shaq missed 30
delonte missed 18
z missed 22
gibson missed 26

jamison only played 25


knowledge.

[Scal]

Bulls won 62 games in 1998 (or .756) and then only 13 from 50 (or .260, which would equate to about 21 roughly in an 82 game season) the next season.

So Cavs won 61 games, so percentage-wise, they need about 21 or more (or less than a drop off of 40 wins).

Just for the record, 1997 Spurs dropped from 59 to 20 wins, which isn't quite as bad as the Bulls (but unlike the Bulls and Cavs -probably anyway- the Spurs losing that season has led to another decade and a half of consistency, playoff appearances and chapionships).

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lol mike brown.

:lol

[B-Easy]

What's so funny? That's 3 of their best players and the coach that the team was accustomed to for 5 seasons. I wasn't trying to equate it with the Bulls dip and take anything away from Lebron. I'm just saying there were significant changes other then Lebron. A team goes through that many changes, there almost a completely different team is my point.

Delonte and Z hurt more than they helped .. they were a better team when Gibson and Hickson got their minutes.

[Collie]

Spurs had a HUGE dropoff, losing the equivalents of Lebron (David Robinson), and important roleplayers (guys like Vinny Del Negro), while gaining Dominique Wilkins.

[jbryan1984]

I've said before.... Its not only LeBron and a couple role players left. Its a lot of things, no confidence is one of them. Don't say the cupcake schedule thing either. They beat Boston, they beat Memphis and they were competitive at the beginning. Now, they are not competitive a lot of the time. That Miami game took it out of them. No doubt, it is their own fault they can't get it back, they have the fan support. Another thing I said before, entirely new coaching system than what they are used to. Andy and Boobie never played NBA ball any other way than LeBron offense and San Antonio defense. So yeah, we can make excuses but nothing is going to happen this year. I would really like to get rid of Mo and Jamison. Actually, the entire team next year can go other than Boobie and Andy.

[Alvy]

Apart from the obvious void left by Bron, they are having a hard time adjusting to playing w/o the refs on their side every game..

I hate to go back in time, so be careful when you open that door.

[ginobli2311]

Jamisons MPG on Cleveland

2009: 32.4
2010: 29.8

Knowledge:cheers:

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. LOL

was talking about games played with the cavs (25....23 games started)

LOL....not a laughalbe 2.6 extra minutes a game.

wow.
:facepalm

[ginobli2311]

good delete.
:cheers:

[lilWesleyJ4]

good delete.
:cheers:
Yes:lol I realized what you meant 30 seconds after I posted. :facepalm @ me.

[ginobli2311]

Yes:lol I realized what you meant 30 seconds after I posted. :facepalm @ me.

no big.

repped you.
:cheers:

[trig]

they lost lebron and 3 zebras. guys like mo williams no longer gets bogus calls

[NauruDude]

You add Z, Shaq, Delonte and Mike Brown to this team, they still wouldn't win 30 games.

Shaq would've already been hurt and checked out for the season by now.

You add Z to the team they win 50+ games. Z is the key to the Heat right now IMO.

[asdf1990]

I've said before.... Its not only LeBron and a couple role players left. Its a lot of things, no confidence is one of them. Don't say the cupcake schedule thing either. They beat Boston, they beat Memphis and they were competitive at the beginning. Now, they are not competitive a lot of the time. That Miami game took it out of them. No doubt, it is their own fault they can't get it back, they have the fan support. Another thing I said before, entirely new coaching system than what they are used to. Andy and Boobie never played NBA ball any other way than LeBron offense and San Antonio defense. So yeah, we can make excuses but nothing is going to happen this year. I would really like to get rid of Mo and Jamison. Actually, the entire team next year can go other than Boobie and Andy.
So what u r saying is that not only wad lebron a great player but he was also a great leader? When lebron was there the team never lacked confidence, they were always ready after big losses.

[jebron-i]

lebron is the real factor, cleavland is nothing without him

[sundizz]

Why wouldn't this happen? Of course they should drop off ridiculously. Their team was centered around using Lebron as a one man wrecking crew. He basically was their entire offense. He was similar to how Shaq would be used or any other supremely gifted and efficient scorer (i.e Timmy D, KG, etc). Most of these teams generally just had ONE amazing superstar and if/when they leave of course the team should be terrible without them.

However, the Cavs team was designed to take advantage of all of Lebron's skills...ie put shooters around him and let him dominate. How are shooters all of a sudden going to become different style players. If you had players that are 'equivalently' good players but played a different style, they would flourish now given the opportunity. An example is someone like Raymond Felton. If he was on the Cavs he would be flourishing now and the team would be better than with Mo Williams at the helm. However, with Lebron on a team Raymond Felton < Mo Williams. It's arguable sure...but when you have a one man wrecking crew you try to find complementary pieces, or an All-Star. They tried to do both, get players that are shooters/good defenders. Their only flaw was with the All-Star they selected, he is truly just a number guy and is basically a how the hell type All Star player.

It seems ludicrous that people are pointing to Lebron on a pedestal because Cleveland is sucking. If anything, Miami winning is much more of a testament to his abilities. You can't take the main guy of any team and expect them to do good. Especially, when that main guy is one that is an all around player. Can you imagine taking Kobe off that Lakers team that was 7th that one year (the year they lost to the Suns). Hahah, that team would have Lamar Odom as their best player, Smush Parker, Luke Walton...lol. That team may not even have a chance against the D-league All Stars (i.e Warriors of last year).

[PurpleChuck]

lebron is the real factor, cleavland is nothing without him
Word.

[oh the horror]

Pretty much just Lebron... Delonte barely played last year, Byron Scott > Mike Brown, and Shaq/Z are replaced with Varejao/Powe which is isnt much of a dropoff since Varejao is actually a great defender and Powe can actually move.



You cant just discount two centers like Z/Shaq as non-existant though, just because it doesnt seem to be a "big drop off" from other players on Cleveland. The fact is, you have two 7 footers, who arent there anymore, and that DOES have an impact on team ball. The Cavs flat out play differently now. You can even see Big Z having a positive effect on Miami right now...His size alone bothers people.

[jebron-i]

they have a shot at it, but i dontt hink they will be that bad towards the end

[Simple Jack]

Why wouldn't this happen? Of course they should drop off ridiculously. Their team was centered around using Lebron as a one man wrecking crew. He basically was their entire offense. He was similar to how Shaq would be used or any other supremely gifted and efficient scorer (i.e Timmy D, KG, etc). Most of these teams generally just had ONE amazing superstar and if/when they leave of course the team should be terrible without them.

However, the Cavs team was designed to take advantage of all of Lebron's skills...ie put shooters around him and let him dominate. How are shooters all of a sudden going to become different style players. If you had players that are 'equivalently' good players but played a different style, they would flourish now given the opportunity. An example is someone like Raymond Felton. If he was on the Cavs he would be flourishing now and the team would be better than with Mo Williams at the helm. However, with Lebron on a team Raymond Felton < Mo Williams. It's arguable sure...but when you have a one man wrecking crew you try to find complementary pieces, or an All-Star. They tried to do both, get players that are shooters/good defenders. Their only flaw was with the All-Star they selected, he is truly just a number guy and is basically a how the hell type All Star player.

It seems ludicrous that people are pointing to Lebron on a pedestal because Cleveland is sucking. If anything, Miami winning is much more of a testament to his abilities. You can't take the main guy of any team and expect them to do good. Especially, when that main guy is one that is an all around player. Can you imagine taking Kobe off that Lakers team that was 7th that one year (the year they lost to the Suns). Hahah, that team would have Lamar Odom as their best player, Smush Parker, Luke Walton...lol. That team may not even have a chance against the D-league All Stars (i.e Warriors of last year).


The issue is talent. The Lakers team is laughable, as you mentioned, because Lamar was the 2nd best player. Conversely, the Cavaliers have Mo Williams as their 2nd best player at the moment.

Consider anyone else being on a team with an equivalent level of talent; even IF the team was "built" around them which still needs to be proven at this point; but let's say that were true, what other player do you see winning 66 and 61 with that level of talent? That's the point you seem to be missing despite suggesting it's validity when mentioning the 05-06 Lakers.

[NBASTATMAN]

Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.


They replaced Delonte with Sessions, z with hollins and shaq didn't play in their 66 win season... They also acquired Jamison last year and he is at least as good as Delonte.. So pretty much a verry similar team.. Except for Mike Brown... Maybe Coach Brown deserves some props..:rockon:

[NBASTATMAN]

You cant just discount two centers like Z/Shaq as non-existant though, just because it doesnt seem to be a "big drop off" from other players on Cleveland. The fact is, you have two 7 footers, who arent there anymore, and that DOES have an impact on team ball. The Cavs flat out play differently now. You can even see Big Z having a positive effect on Miami right now...His size alone bothers people.

I do agree that he has a positve effect.. But how much and how much less would it be if Lebron wasn't getting all those open shots for him?


The only other guys that could have been close to what Lebron did are magic and Bird... Maybe MJ.. But I don't think any of them take that team to 66 wins ...

[Sakkreth]

[/B]

I do agree that he has a positve effect.. But how much and how much less would it be if Lebron wasn't getting all those open shots for him?


The only other guys that could have been close to what Lebron did are magic and Bird... Maybe MJ.. But I don't think any of them take that team to 66 wins ...

It's Z who defended Gasol, It's Z who's defense is underrated, It's Z who gets offensive boards. And then there is LeBron who gets Z into position of shooting, but then there is Z again whos incredible good at midrange shoting. Yes he has defensive missmatch against quick athletic bigs like Amare though.

[VIP2000]

The Cavs weren't that bad at the start of the season but ever since the first Heat/Cavs game, their hearts and souls have been taken out of them.

I think they've only won one game in the last month and a half.

[ginobli2311]

It's Z who defended Gasol, It's Z who's defense is underrated, It's Z who gets offensive boards. And then there is LeBron who gets Z into position of shooting, but then there is Z again whos incredible good at midrange shoting. Yes he has defensive missmatch against quick athletic bigs like Amare though.

yea. z was big for them. but he also missed 22 games i think for the cavs last year and they really didn't miss a beat.

the three most important players on those cavs teams were mo/lebron/andy. you could pretty much surround them with anything and they are going to challenge for 60 plus wins. they fit very well together. its a real shame the cavs front office sucked so hard that they couldn't get that missing piece.

would have been a dynasty with a legit 2nd option. how crazy is that? cavs could have moved wally's contract and some pieces for a 2nd option back in 09 and would probably be working on a 3 peat right now.

oh how that has to suck for cavs fans.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

What's so funny? That's 3 of their best players and the coach that the team was accustomed to for 5 seasons. I wasn't trying to equate it with the Bulls dip and take anything away from Lebron. I'm just saying there were significant changes other then Lebron. A team goes through that many changes, there almost a completely different team is my point.

Shaq was terrible. West is a decent back up PG. It's all Lebron. Z also was hurt for a big chunk of the year. They would still win 60 games with Lebron playing this season. One guy is responsible for 40 wins.

[Lebron23]

Dan Gilbert is rolling in his grave.

[cavsfanatic]

We ain't winning 20 games man. We gone win bout 15-18. They were 7-9 at one point now they 8-27 smfh

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavs are on pace to have the biggest drop in winnning % by a wide margin after another loss tonight. What a disaster.

[dallaslonghorn]

Cavs also lost Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Mike Brown.

Tremendous losses. All of them.

[Scal]

Currently they are on pace for 18, and they will be lucky to hit that with Varejao out for the season - even in a poor Central Division.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

It just shows how amazingly good Lebron is at basketball.

[sixer6ad]

:roll:

People use the :roll: when they can't respond correctly.

Lost our starting and backup center. Lost our second best playoff performer in the playoffs the last two years. Lost our best player in franchise history. Have a brand new offensive and defensive scheme.

Lebron loss big? Absolutely...it's huge. It's the single biggest factor. However, do yourself a common sense favor and re-post that losing other core players and a very established defensive system has made an impact as well. Just copy and paste what I wrote so that you get your credibility back. Plus, you won't have to rely on :roll: :rockon: :rolleyes: or whatever you choose to speak your words for you.

[Walduś]

It just shows how amazingly good Lebron is at basketball.
it's obvious that the cavs are tanking the season.

[Kblaze8855]

With Lebron on that team you could replace anyone they lost by randomly selecting names from a hat and win 52-65 wins depending on who you get. Nobody but him even deserves a mention far as what they lost. They lost Lebron and 100% totally interchangeable parts. Guy took a team as bad as or worse than they have now to the finals when he was a good bit worse than he is now.

Lebron is one of the few people you can honestly say is the difference between worst team in the league...and a contender. He just is. The rest of those guys they lost...were he still there? Nobody would give a damn. Anderson is the only major loss going forward and they are on an 18-20 win pace with him so...not like he was doing anything that mattered.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavaliers look like a college team against the Lakers.

[RJChPD]

With Lebron on that team you could replace anyone they lost by randomly selecting names from a hat and win 52-65 wins depending on who you get. Nobody but him even deserves a mention far as what they lost. They lost Lebron and 100% totally interchangeable parts. Guy took a team as bad as or worse than they have now to the finals when he was a good bit worse than he is now.

Lebron is one of the few people you can honestly say is the difference between worst team in the league...and a contender. He just is. The rest of those guys they lost...were he still there? Nobody would give a damn. Anderson is the only major loss going forward and they are on an 18-20 win pace with him so...not like he was doing anything that mattered.

Very good post as usual.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavs are losing by 50 against the Lakers!

[Alonzo Magic]

With Lebron on that team you could replace anyone they lost by randomly selecting names from a hat and win 52-65 wins depending on who you get. Nobody but him even deserves a mention far as what they lost. They lost Lebron and 100% totally interchangeable parts. Guy took a team as bad as or worse than they have now to the finals when he was a good bit worse than he is now.

Lebron is one of the few people you can honestly say is the difference between worst team in the league...and a contender. He just is. The rest of those guys they lost...were he still there? Nobody would give a damn. Anderson is the only major loss going forward and they are on an 18-20 win pace with him so...not like he was doing anything that mattered.

Sasha Pavlovic was playing 35 minutes a night in that 07 finals.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Yeah. Lebron carried a 20 win team to the NBA finals. That 2007 team was god awful. That still is one of the most amazing feats in NBA history ( even though they didn't win the title)

[d.bball.guy]

I think it's safe to say YES
:D

[50inchvertical]

Sasha Pavlovic was playing 35 minutes a night in that 07 finals.
And Eric Snow was starting.

And Donyell Marshall was on that team. :oldlol:

[branslowski]

Cavs went from 45 wins to 66 wins by only adding Mo Willaims and getting more games and minutes out of Varejoe....LeBron avg about the same numbers in both these years...

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Cavs went from 45 wins to 66 wins by only adding Mo Willaims and getting more games and minutes out of Varejoe....LeBron avg about the same numbers in both these years...

lol... if you think Mo Williams and Varajo added 20 wins then you're crazy. How is Mo Williams working out this year? The guy is slightly better than a random D league player. Lebron was that entire team. Lets be honest.

[boozehound]

lol... if you think Mo Williams and Varajo added 20 wins then you're crazy. How is Mo Williams working out this year? The guy is slightly better than a random D league player. Lebron was that entire team. Lets be honest.
I think his point was slightly more nuanced than that. I think his point was that comparing win totals across seasons and attributing it solely to a few additions or subtractions is rather silly. Clearly losing lebron accounts for something like 40 wins, but to act like there hasnt been a major shift in the entire team (esp the lose of West imo) and the coaching staff is ignorant.

If you want to use this year (when its over) to tally up the record difference from last year and attribute it all to james, than you cant really reject him doing the same thing with av and mo (even if its clearly a silly argument). Winning is about much more than just plug and play.

[Simple Jack]

I think his point was slightly more nuanced than that. I think his point was that comparing win totals across seasons and attributing it solely to a few additions or subtractions is rather silly. Clearly losing lebron accounts for something like 40 wins, but to act like there hasnt been a major shift in the entire team (esp the lose of West imo) and the coaching staff is ignorant.

If you want to use this year (when its over) to tally up the record difference from last year and attribute it all to james, than you cant really reject him doing the same thing with av and mo (even if its clearly a silly argument). Winning is about much more than just plug and play.

Again, the thing supporting the former argument and rejecting the latter is that the Cavaliers were still elite minus some of the players you mentioned. They lost 1 game I believe last year without Mo in the lineup, including a win over the Lakers. Without LeBron, they looked awful.

[Rico2016]

Cavs are going to win 20-25 games this season. Last year they won 60+. They could see a drop off of 40 wins this season. What's the biggest drop in wins from one season to the next in NBA history?

Yes, they will.