Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

[jrong]

I haven't always been known to be the biggest James fan, but I have to admit I've never seen him shoot jumpshots and threes the way he is this shooting them this year. Now before I settle on this conclusion finally, I have to see whether in April, May, and June he is still making them like this.

But, if he is, it doesn't matter if, say Wade, is a comparable passer or even a superior scorer. Because at James's size, if he shoots like this, it opens up options and advantages created by spacing that neither Wade nor any other player similarly possesses. Even though I do expect that if the Heat win a title in the next two years, Wade will be the closer, when LeBron shoots the way he has been from the outside, it opens up new dimensions to the game that are open to him alone....

[Kurosawa0]

He has been the best player in the NBA since 2008.

[Yung D-Will]

He has been the best player in the NBA since 2008.
:rolleyes:

[ashbelly]

Maybe ? ... :facepalm

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

uh. Lebron being the best player in the NBA is like saying Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball. Not exactly a bold statement.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

If LeBron can:

1.) Continue shooting (and making) jumpers like he has been
2.) Develop a post game
3.) Get better at Free Throw Shooting
4.) Become a better 1-on-1 defender
5.) Get better at off-ball movement

He will no doubt in my mind be the best player in the league. Those are his only weaknesses in my opinion. Those skills combined with his athletic ability will simply make him unstoppable.

[Kingwillball]

If LeBron can:

1.) Continue shooting (and making) jumpers like he has been
2.) Develop a post game
3.) Get better at Free Throw Shooting
4.) Become a better 1-on-1 defender
5.) Get better at off-ball movement

He will no doubt in my mind be the best player in the league. Those are his only weaknesses in my opinion. Those skills combined with his athletic ability will simply make him unstoppable.


U have it wrong he is already the best player in the League if he adds what U wrote above he will become THE BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME !

[Walduś]

kobe :pimp:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

U have it wrong he is already the best player in the League if he adds what U wrote above he will become THE BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME !

He's not the best player in the league. He is a stat sheet stuffer but his game is still mostly reliant on his athleticism. If he can develop these skills then he will be the best player in the league.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Well lets see.

Consistent shooter and scorer
Good rebounder
Great court vision and accurate passing
Suffocating defense at times (the regular season doesn't showcase peak defense)
Great speed and athleticism at 6"8 and 250 lbs.

Oh and probably the best transition defense player of all time.

Yep, that about sums it up.

[Inactive]

I haven't always been known to be the biggest James fan, but I have to admit I've never seen him shoot jumpshots and threes the way he is this shooting them this year. Now before I settle on this conclusion finally, I have to see whether in April, May, and June he is still making them like this.

But, if he is, it doesn't matter if, say Wade, is a comparable passer or even a superior scorer. Because at James's size, if he shoots like this, it opens up options and advantages created by spacing that neither Wade nor any other player similarly possesses. Even though I do expect that if the Heat win a title in the next two years, Wade will be the closer, when LeBron shoots the way he has been from the outside, it opens up new dimensions to the game that are open to him alone....Lebron's percentage on jumpers(16-23 ft) is virtually the same as it's been since 09. His 3pt% was around 36% before the allstar break last year IIRC, and he was hitting a ton of halfcourt shots to finish quarters during the first half of last season. He's the same, or worse in every area as he was during his two mvp seasons.

Maybe he was just playing better than normal in the games that you happened to watch?

[DuMa]

hes been the best player since 2007

[magnax1]

Lebron's FG% at 10-15 feet 33%
FG% at 15-20 feet 41%
That's average at best, and that's basically the same % he's shot since 2008

[Yung D-Will]

Who's the best player in the NBA? Kobrick Bryant.


Gotta go with Wade at the moment






=X

[Rose]

Wade.

EDIT: Lol someone's insecure by this comment.

[catch24]

1A / 1B IMO - at the moment at least.

[magnax1]

Yeah, I agree with Wade. Especially with how he's played after his crappy first month.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Who's the best player in the NBA? Kobrick Bryant.

If judging by overall skill? Yes

If judging by box scores? then it's LeBron

And as far as his jumpers, I'm seeing him take more of them (maybe he's settling more? :confusedshrug: ) His game is expanding and if he develops a post game and gets better at FT's then offensively he will be unstoppable, if he isn't already unstoppable.

[Kingwillball]

He's not the best player in the league. He is a stat sheet stuffer but his game is still mostly reliant on his athleticism. If he can develop these skills then he will be the best player in the league.


Yeah he is EASILY the best player in the League wake up..When U watch him in certain games when he is locked in he makes it look scary easy like the other Night against Bobcats or in NY or Clev..

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Yeah he is EASILY the best player in the League wake up..When U watch him in certain games when he is locked in he makes it look scary easy like the other Night against Bobcats or in NY or Clev..

No he's not easily the best in the league. When he's locked in he's amazing but that's with anyone getting hot. When Wade, Kobe, Durant etc get hot they are ridiculous as well. I'm looking at his game not the stats he puts up. If stats were the only thing people looked at then they would think Wilt is the G.O.A.T not Michael. I'm looking at what he can do offensively and defensively. He still has his flaws like everyone. But there are glaring weaknesses in his game but because he is so good in others it can make up for it. LeBron is a beast and I would love to have him on my team if I were a coach but he's still more athletic based than skill based. There's nothing wrong with that but I just judge players in a different way I guess

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

What Skill? Being one of the biggest ballhogs in NBA History. He shot 6/24 in Game 7 of the NBA Finals. His team still won the game.

:facepalm Dude that Game 7 was last season. That's like me bringing up LeBron's entire series against SA and judging him off of that. And Kobe is not a ballhog. If that were the case he wouldn't constantly lead his team in assists every year and be the biggest playmaker on their team

Skill means what he is able to do on the floor. There is no glaring weakness in his game meaning you can't say "Let's make Kobe be a jump shooter." when defending him because he can make them. You can't make him go to the line because he can make his FT's. He can guard your best player (although I'll admit he has been pretty lazy this year on defense for the most part). He's not too great of a help defender though that's one area that LeBron trumps him in is help defense. That's what I mean when I say skill. LeBron is starting to develop his skills more instead of just relying on his incredible athleticism. If he develops other areas of his game that are more skill based than athletic based then he will be the best player in the league to me. I think he has the potential to do it and will do it eventually.

[Micku]

So far Lebron is a shooting pretty good with his jumper. But he shot pretty good last year too, but messed up in the playoffs.

This yeah, his jumper doesn't look awkward anymore. If he keep at it, then he will take out one of his weakness.

As far as him being the best player, eh. If he is, he isn't blowing people out of the water. Yeah, I know he and Wade are both sharing the ball and taking turns, so they are not exploding in the stat column in order to win games. Both are close in what they do, so it's pretty unclear to me. He definitely has the best talent though.

But constantly trying to find out who is the best individual player is pretty overrated anyway in a team sport.

[sh0wtime]

Let me settle this with some facts, if you are to lazy to thoroughly observe the info, then i can say in short words Wade is close but the edge is still clear towards Lebrons side in terms of who has been playing better for Heat.

LEBRON

PPG: 24.8
RPG: 6.8
APG: 7.3
FG .481%
3PT .358%
FT .773%
PER / EFF - 26 / 26
Win Shares - 6.9
Offensive Win Shares - 4.4
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

WADE

PPG: 25.0
RPG: 6.5
APG: 4.2
FG .495%
3PT .313%
FT .742%
PER / EFF - 26 / 24
Win Shares - 6.2
Offensive Win Shares - 3.9
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

And this, the biggest decievable stat here is the +/-, you can overlook it if you wish.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7963/82games.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9906/82games2.jpg

[Yung D-Will]

Let me settle this with some facts, if you are to lazy to thoroughly observe the info, then i can say in short words Wade is close but the edge is still clear towards Lebrons side in terms of who has been playing better for Heat.

LEBRON

PPG: 24.8
RPG: 6.8
APG: 7.3
FG .481%
3PT .358%
FT .773%
PER / EFF - 26 / 26
Win Shares - 6.9
Offensive Win Shares - 4.4
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

WADE

PPG: 25.0
RPG: 6.5
APG: 4.2
FG .495%
3PT .313%
FT .742%
PER / EFF - 26 / 24
Win Shares - 6.2
Offensive Win Shares - 3.9
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7963/82games.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9906/82games2.jpg


Wait what? Is that supposed to tell me who's better? I can download every heat game played so far this season with a click of a button which is way more accurate then advanced stats.

Stat whores drive me nuts.

[Inactive]

Wait what? Is that supposed to tell me who's better? I can download every heat game played so far this season with a click of a button which is way more accurate then advanced stats.

Stat whores drive me nuts.Stats have some limitations. Your eyes, and brain have far more, though.

[Yung D-Will]

Stats have some limitations. Your eyes, and brain have far more, though.
Thanks but I think if I've watched the majority of their games I can trust my brain a lot more than I can trust stats.

[Walduś]

What Skill? Being one of the biggest ballhogs in NBA History. He shot 6/24 in Game 7 of the NBA Finals. His team still won the game.
your hero shot 35% the whole series vs celtics in 08. :oldlol:

[che guevara]

If LeBron can:

1.) Continue shooting (and making) jumpers like he has been
2.) Develop a post game
3.) Get better at Free Throw Shooting
4.) Become a better 1-on-1 defender
5.) Get better at off-ball movement

He will no doubt in my mind be the best player in the league. Those are his only weaknesses in my opinion. Those skills combined with his athletic ability will simply make him unstoppable.
Do you even watch the games? Lebron is one of the best one on one defenders in the league, and it's not like 1v1 defense is really that important at all. He probably has to defend a 1v1 situation less than once a game. Same with FT shooting, he's at 77% which isn't great, but it's not awful. These were legit criticisms in '07 but not now.

[Disaprine]

He has been the best player in the NBA since 2008.
he wasn't the best in 2008-2009 season.

[che guevara]

Thanks but I think if I've watched the majority of their games I can trust my brain a lot more than I can trust stats.
:oldlol: Yeah, I'm sure your biased perspective is much more trustworthy than stats.

[Yung D-Will]

:oldlol: Yeah, I'm sure your biased perspective is much more trustworthy than stats.


biased of what? The Utah Jazz?

[Lebron23]

biased of what? The Utah Jazz?

Kobenest

[Yung D-Will]

Kobenest


Lol what.

Kobe isn't even in the conversation for best player anymore.

I have nothing against Lebron. In fact I put him as the best player in the leauge for since the season started and in 09-10. I just recently changed it to Wade within the past week.


My point is I hate when people try to throw 200 advanced stats out as proof of why one player is superior.

When I thought Lebron was superior to Wade it had nothing to do with things like win shares. And now that I think Wade superior is has nothing to do with any of these advanced stats. I make my opions based on the games I watch.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Do you even watch the games? Lebron is one of the best one on one defenders in the league, and it's not like 1v1 defense is really that important at all. He probably has to defend a 1v1 situation less than once a game. Same with FT shooting, he's at 77% which isn't great, but it's not awful. These were legit criticisms in '07 but not now.

Yes I watch the games and he has trouble keeping guys in front of him. He's great at help defense though. 77% is pretty decent, but he needs to be around the low 80's I think. And :lol @ man defense not being important. He plays man defense more than zone and he usually guards the other team's best player so it is very important. If he allows a guy to go past him then it affects his team.

[az00m]

your hero shot 35% the whole series vs celtics in 08. :oldlol:

your hero shot 25% in game 7

[christian1923]

we all know what happens to him in the playoffs thoo..... :pimp:

[Inactive]

Thanks but I think if I've watched the majority of their games I can trust my brain a lot more than I can trust stats.That trust you have in your opinions is one of the limitations I was referring to.

Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?

Unless you're validating your impressions with data, and corroborating with (relatively) unbiased observers, your opinion is practically worthless. You're delusional, if you think otherwise.

[Lebron23]

That trust you have in your opinions is one of the limitations I was referring to.

Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?

Unless you're validating your impressions with data, and corroborating with (relatively) unbiased observers, your opinion is practically worthless. You're delusional, if you think otherwise.


You are a very smart guy. Repped

[knightfall88]

People say Lebron has learnt to shoot EVERY Year.

[Yung D-Will]

Unless you're validating your impressions with data, and corroborating with (relatively) unbiased observers, your opinion is practically worthless. You're delusional, if you think otherwise.
Really? I think you're forgetting we're talking about Sports here. It doesn't take 9000 advanced stats to show you that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's in the NFL you can just watch 5 of his games. Just like people in the 60's didn't have to use advanced stats to decided whether or not Russell was better than Wilt or vice versa. The same way I don't need to look at Per to tell you Dirk is better than Bosh. As Sports fans we watch these games, We observe and we witness firsthand the extent of these players individual abilties. We see Their strengths, We see their weakness, We see if they're clutch, We see if they're playoffs performers , we see if they're willing to pass it off to someone else who's wide open for the last shot, We see their ego, we see their confidence, we see the good, the bad and the ugly because everything is left on the court night in and night out. I don't need a win Share to validate my opinion when I can just tell you who was the superior player when it mattered against the the good teams and you can't deny it because you've seen it yourself.


This isn't a political debate where I have to collect data for weeks to prove a point. We all watch the same nba, We all watch what the players do on a normal basis throughout an 82 game season. If that's not a big enough sample size for you to understand who the better players in the leauge are then I find that weird. It's simple and down to the point.

That's always been my view on it

[magnax1]

Really? I think you're forgetting we're talking about Sports here. It doesn't take 9000 advanced stats to show you that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's in the NFL you can just watch 5 of his games. Just like people in the 60's didn't have to use advanced stats to decided whether or not Russell was better than Wilt or vice versa. The same way I don't need to look at Per to tell you Dirk is better than Bosh. As Sports fans we watch these games, We observe and we witness firsthand the extent of these players individual abilties. We see Their strengths, We see their weakness, We see if they're clutch, We see if they're playoffs performers , we see if they're willing to pass it off to someone else who's wide open for the last shot, We see their ego, we see their confidence, we see the good, the bad and the ugly because everything is left on the court night in and night out. I don't need a win Share to validate my opinion when I can just tell you who was the superior player when it mattered against the the good teams and you can't deny it because you've seen it yourself.


This isn't a political debate where I have to collect data for weeks to prove a point. We all watch the same nba, We all watch what the players do on a normal basis throughout an 82 game season. If that's not a big enough sample size for you to understand who the better players in the leauge are then I find that weird. It's simple and down to the point.

That's always been my view on it
Deserving of rep, but I must've repped you earlier.

[Chris Quinn]

Well lets see.

Consistent shooter and scorer
Good rebounder
Great court vision and accurate passing
Suffocating defense at times (the regular season doesn't showcase peak defense)
Great speed and athleticism at 6"8 and 250 lbs.

Oh and probably the best transition defense player of all time.

Yep, that about sums it up.

nice POST

[Simple Jack]

Really? I think you're forgetting we're talking about Sports here. It doesn't take 9000 advanced stats to show you that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's in the NFL you can just watch 5 of his games. Just like people in the 60's didn't have to use advanced stats to decided whether or not Russell was better than Wilt or vice versa. The same way I don't need to look at Per to tell you Dirk is better than Bosh. As Sports fans we watch these games, We observe and we witness firsthand the extent of these players individual abilties. We see Their strengths, We see their weakness, We see if they're clutch, We see if they're playoffs performers , we see if they're willing to pass it off to someone else who's wide open for the last shot, We see their ego, we see their confidence, we see the good, the bad and the ugly because everything is left on the court night in and night out. I don't need a win Share to validate my opinion when I can just tell you who was the superior player when it mattered against the the good teams and you can't deny it because you've seen it yourself.


This isn't a political debate where I have to collect data for weeks to prove a point. We all watch the same nba, We all watch what the players do on a normal basis throughout an 82 game season. If that's not a big enough sample size for you to understand who the better players in the leauge are then I find that weird. It's simple and down to the point.

That's always been my view on it

You are basically insisting that you are making an observation and it doesn't need to be verified by empirical data to be true. Like the Brady reference; the point is however, that if you WERE to look at the statistics, you would see that Brady is one of the best QB's. It verifies your observations.

The logical approach is to make a claim and then see if it checks out because like plenty of people have already said; we all have biases and think subjectively whether we like to hear it or not. Making a claim that Wade is the best player in the league simply by watching is fine; but it would help your claim, and at least make it more credible, if it were backed up by some sort of fact or measure.

Making a general claim is one thing; like the Brady reference, or saying LeBron/Kobe/Wade are great players....Making a comparative claim however, especially between players that we have established to be "close", requires a bit more than simply saying "i watch the games".

[Yung D-Will]

You are basically insisting that you are making an observation and it doesn't need to be verified by empirical data to be true. Like the Brady reference; the point is however, that if you WERE to look at the statistics, you would see that Brady is one of the best QB's. It verifies your observations.

The logical approach is to make a claim and then see if it checks out because like plenty of people have already said; we all have biases and think subjectively whether we like to hear it or not. Making a claim that Wade is the best player in the league simply by watching is fine; but it would help your claim, and at least make it more credible, if it were backed up by some sort of fact or measure.


Don't get me wrong if we're in a bar and talking about who's better I'm not just gonna say Wade and not give you any reasons. I'll tell you exactly who's come through when they've had the ball in their hands at the end of the game. I'll tell you who's jumpshot has been more consistant. Who's had more cold streaks where they can't make shots, Who maintains the leads when the other guy isn't on the court. Who has more trust in their teamates, Who's been the one counted on for scoring whenever the team gets behind.Who Runs the pick and roll better,Who's better at finishing Who gets the most fast break points I'll tell you who showed up against the elites ( Spurs,Lakers,Celts ext)

Ext

(All of those were hypothetical)

But these are all things you can see from watching games. It's not like I'm gonna tell you a players better and not give you my reasons. I've seen these players enough to tell you their tendencies and who's counted on for what when the games matter.

And everything I say you can go home, Watch the games and confirm.

[Chris Quinn]

lebron JAMES

[comerb]

No he's not easily the best in the league. When he's locked in he's amazing but that's with anyone getting hot. When Wade, Kobe, Durant etc get hot they are ridiculous as well. I'm looking at his game not the stats he puts up. If stats were the only thing people looked at then they would think Wilt is the G.O.A.T not Michael. I'm looking at what he can do offensively and defensively. He still has his flaws like everyone. But there are glaring weaknesses in his game but because he is so good in others it can make up for it. LeBron is a beast and I would love to have him on my team if I were a coach but he's still more athletic based than skill based. There's nothing wrong with that but I just judge players in a different way I guess

The difference between Lebron and the rest of them(Wade, Kobe, Durant, etc), is he does everything else better aside from scoring. Best rebounder? Lebron. Best Passer? Lebron. Best ball handler? Lebron. Best court vision? Lebron.

When he is on the court he heavily impacts the game, he makes everyone around him better... he doesn't even need to be scoring to do it. You can't say the same thing about Kobe and Durant, and while Wade is that sort of player, its not to the same extent.

[Inactive]

Really? I think you're forgetting we're talking about Sports here. It doesn't take 9000 advanced stats to show you that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's in the NFL you can just watch 5 of his games. Just like people in the 60's didn't have to use advanced stats to decided whether or not Russell was better than Wilt or vice versa. It takes just as much evidence to demonstrate proof in sports as it does in any other field. Observers, analysts, and participants in sports are subject to the same logical fallacies as they are when forming opinions about everything else. Most people would probably consider it a waste of a time to take sports as seriously as science, but there are plenty of people that are willing to spend their time doing just that, and their opinions should take precedent over more casual fans.



The same way I don't need to look at Per to tell you Dirk is better than Bosh. Maybe, maybe not. If someone comes forward with an argument, backed by statistics, stating that Bosh is a better player, his opinion ought to be taken more seriously than your baseless opinion. If you respond by criticizing his analysis of those statistics, and provide solid reason to back up your claims, you've got a healthy debate going.


As Sports fans we watch these games, We observe and we witness firsthand the extent of these players individual abilties. We see Their strengths, We see their weakness, We see if they're clutch, We see if they're playoffs performers , we see if they're willing to pass it off to someone else who's wide open for the last shot, We see their ego, we see their confidence, we see the good, the bad and the ugly because everything is left on the court night in and night out. I don't need a win Share to validate my opinion when I can just tell you who was the superior player when it mattered against the the good teams and you can't deny it because you've seen it yourself. Yeah, because the popular opinion is always right, and there are never any dissenters. Maybe you should reread:
Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?





This isn't a political debate where I have to collect data for weeks to prove a point. We all watch the same nba, We all watch what the players do on a normal basis throughout an 82 game season. If that's not a big enough sample size for you to understand who the better players in the leauge are then I find that weird. It's simple and down to the point.

That's always been my view on itI'm not sure where I said anything about the regular season not being an adequate sample size. What we're judging is how well t he players performed over that stretch of games. Problem is the difficulty of accurately assessing their effectiveness, and my post was specifically about how that can't be done without objective data and analysis. I pointed to examples of this in medicine, and brand preference, because those have actually been documented.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

The difference between Lebron and the rest of them(Wade, Kobe, Durant, etc), is he does everything else better aside from scoring. Best rebounder? Lebron. Best Passer? Lebron. Best ball handler? Lebron. Best court vision? Lebron.

When he is on the court he heavily impacts the game, he makes everyone around him better... he doesn't even need to be scoring to do it. You can't say the same thing about Kobe and Durant, and while Wade is that sort of player, its not to the same extent.

Actually if you take into account size his rebounding isn't all that much better than theirs. Kobe is a 6'6'' 205 guard and he averages 5 almost 6 rpg which is very good for a guy his size especially considering the rebounders he has on his team. As far as passing I know people look at his Assist numbers and assume that but that is a result of the offense he plays in. He plays PG on offense pretty much. Ball Handler? Well for a 6'9'' 270 guy he is very comfortable handling the ball but he turns the ball over a lot as well which is the same reason he gets more Assists. Kobe can dominate games just with his presence. Same with Wade. They command double teams, they find teammates, they rebound well for their size and they are clutch. I agree about Durant though he still has a long way to go he is purely a scorer right now although he is very good at it. My point is that LeBron is very good but I think he still has a few areas to perfect until I consider him the best in the league. I have no problem giving him that title.

[Yung D-Will]

[QUOTE]It takes just as much evidence to demonstrate proof in sports as it does in any other field. Observers, analysts, and participants in sports are subject to the same logical fallacies as they are when forming opinions about everything else. Most people would probably consider it a waste of a time to take sports as seriously as science, but there are plenty of people that are willing to spend their time doing just that, and their opinions should take precedent over more casual fans.

I don't consider myself a casual fan by any strech since I watch much more games than most fans do. Pay extra money for leauge pass, and spend half my time on basketball forums. Just because I don't spend 90% of my time observing stats on basketball reference and instead spend my time watching games doesn't support any claim of being a" More casual fan".


Maybe, maybe not. If someone comes forward with an argument, backed by statistics, stating that Bosh is a better player, his opinion ought to be taken more seriously than your baseless opinion. If you respond by criticizing his analysis of those statistics, and provide solid reason to back up your claims, you've got a healthy debate going.

Baseless? I'll tell you exactly who's carried their team, Who's been more clutch, Who's a better rebounder, Who's a better post player ext.

(HYPOTHETICAL)

And at the end of the day that guy I'm arguing with would be the person who's opinion would be taking less serios because anyone who's watched both
mAVS AND Raptors games can confirm this and who's the better player.



Yeah, because the popular opinion is always right, and there are never any dissenters. Maybe you should reread:





I'm not sure where I said anything about the regular season not being an adequate sample size. What we're judging is how well t he players performed over that stretch of games. Problem is the difficulty of accurately assessing their effectiveness, and my post was specifically about how that can't be done without objective data and analysis. I pointed to examples of this in medicine, and brand preference, because those have actually been documented.

If you find it difficult to accurately asses the effectiveness of players over a stretch of games that's your personal problem. I've never had that problem cause I spend a lot of my time examining games and re watching them. Basketball is a simple sport where you see everything.

EVery point I make in a basketball argument can be confirmed by watching games. And I'll personally cut up a two hour complete game into sections just to prove a point.

[Simple Jack]

Don't get me wrong if we're in a bar and talking about who's better I'm not just gonna say Wade and not give you any reasons. I'll tell you exactly who's come through when they've had the ball in their hands at the end of the game. I'll tell you who's jumpshot has been more consistant. Who's had more cold streaks where they can't make shots, Who maintains the leads when the other guy isn't on the court. Who has more trust in their teamates, Who's been the one counted on for scoring whenever the team gets behind.Who Runs the pick and roll better,Who's better at finishing Who gets the most fast break points I'll tell you who showed up against the elites ( Spurs,Lakers,Celts ext)

Ext

(All of those were hypothetical)

But these are all things you can see from watching games. It's not like I'm gonna tell you a players better and not give you my reasons. I've seen these players enough to tell you their tendencies and who's counted on for what when the games matter.

And everything I say you can go home, Watch the games and confirm.


Did the 82games.com stats surprise you about the clutch players? I know it surprised me. It's because, like people have suggested, we remember a lot of things we want to, and forget the others. It's human nature. When debating a point however, all these things come into play which is why it's always good to get an objective side to an argument rather than simply what you saw, or THINK you saw. (not just you in particular, i'm guilty of it as well).

[LilEddyCurry]

Lebron is the best player in the NBA, watch the Heat play... See how Wade is on with Bosh and Lebron is on with the scrubs

[Simple Jack]

Actually if you take into account size his rebounding isn't all that much better than theirs. Kobe is a 6'6'' 205 guard and he averages 5 almost 6 rpg which is very good for a guy his size especially considering the rebounders he has on his team. As far as passing I know people look at his Assist numbers and assume that but that is a result of the offense he plays in. He plays PG on offense pretty much. Ball Handler? Well for a 6'9'' 270 guy he is very comfortable handling the ball but he turns the ball over a lot as well which is the same reason he gets more Assists. Kobe can dominate games just with his presence. Same with Wade. They command double teams, they find teammates, they rebound well for their size and they are clutch. I agree about Durant though he still has a long way to go he is purely a scorer right now although he is very good at it. My point is that LeBron is very good but I think he still has a few areas to perfect until I consider him the best in the league. I have no problem giving him that title.

LeBron can't?

It surprises me that people still criticize LeBron's game with the same point...that he has so much to learn and improve upon; EVERY player in NBA history has areas they can improve upon that would vastly increase their impact on the game. It's unreasonable to expect them to perfect EVERY area of basketball. At this point in their careers, I think it's quite silly to suggest Kobe or Durant as being a better individual player than LeBron. They may have more "skills" but it's all about what you do on the court and not a single player in the league has more of an impact or is more dominant than LeBron James. (The skill thing never made sense to me. Pau Gasol is NOT better than Dwight despite having more "skill")

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

LeBron can't?

It surprises me that people still criticize LeBron's game with the same point...that he has so much to learn and improve upon; EVERY player in NBA history has areas they can improve upon that would vastly increase their impact on the game. It's unreasonable to expect them to perfect EVERY area of basketball. At this point in their careers, I think it's quite silly to suggest Kobe or Durant as being a better individual player than LeBron. They may have more "skills" but it's all about what you do on the court and not a single player in the league has more of an impact or is more dominant than LeBron James. (The skill thing never made sense to me. Pau Gasol is NOT better than Dwight despite having more "skill")

I'm not saying that he can't because he does do it. And I'm not saying be perfect at EVERY aspect because no one is or ever has been. I'm saying that he has weakness that can be softened. Me personally I don't think it's silly to suggest Kobe as a better, more complete player. MJ didn't always put up the most dominant numbers especially later in his career but everyone still regarded him as the hands down best player in the league. (I'm not comparing him to Kobe, LeBron or anyone else it's just for reference). Like I said, LeBron is the Box Score King, but as far as what he is capable of doing in his game right now, his level of skill vs athleticism, he is not the best in my opinion. If you disagree that's fine. We just judge players in a different manner is all.

[Kingwillball]

Anyone that says anything different than Lebron is either a hater (HUGE FAN of another Player) or just doesn't know basketball.. Wade is Great and right now might be #2 and Kobe is still in the conversation and there are a couple others on the rise but LBJ is numero Uno..

[knightfall88]

If you think Lebron is the best player in basketball based on his stats than you don't understand basketball.

Here are the reasons why:

A 1st option player needs to be aggresive for the whole game. It is silly compare how many points and FG% between 1st option players because as long as you stay aggressive, you are going to make it easier for your team mates. Now I watch Lebron play a lot and he is too passive and is an opportunistic scorer. This means he only takes the shots that are there. Now this is great and all for his stats but when he can't find his shot he'll throw it at his team mate and expect them to jack one up or he'll do nothing at all. He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. There is nothing wrong with the way he plays but thats not how a dominant 1st option should play. Thats why I give a nod to Wade and Bryant. Wade and Bryant if they were in the brink of losing a crucial game in the playoffs would go all in and jack up 15 shots in a row and not care whether they miss it all.

Rebounding - Kobe and Wade have been the better offensive rebounders for most of their careers. Defensive rebounding - for the most part unless you are getting outrebounded - you are taking boards from your team mates and not your opponents.

2009 against Orlando - Lebron when playing poorly wanted to rack up rebounds, ending up not closing on Turk and Lewis and thats why they were going off all series with their 3's.

Assists - Lebron having better court vision than Wade? absolutely stupid. He gets more assist than Wade. He is passes more than Wade. He does not have better court vision. See my first point as to why he gets more assist.

Defense - offball defense is non existent. Steals and blocks are not offball defense. He makes a lot of mistakes that hurts him in the playoffs. He has a bad habit of letting a man run past him so he can go for a block. I remember 2009 against Orlando, he let Courtney Lee run past him at half court so he can get a chasedown, ending up getting dunked on.

All in all, Good thing he is playing with Wade now because Lebron can now get the stats he wants and win playoff games probably as the 2nd option.

[Lebron23]

If you think Lebron is the best player in basketball based on his stats than you don't understand basketball.

Here are the reasons why:

A 1st option player needs to be aggresive for the whole game. It is silly compare how many points and FG% between 1st option players because as long as you stay aggressive, you are going to make it easier for your team mates. Now I watch Lebron play a lot and he is too passive and is an opportunistic scorer. This means he only takes the shots that are there. Now this is great and all for his stats but when he can't find his shot he'll throw it at his team mate and expect them to jack one up or he'll do nothing at all. He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. There is nothing wrong with the way he plays but thats not how a dominant 1st option should play. Thats why I give a nod to Wade and Bryant. Wade and Bryant if they were in the brink of losing a crucial game in the playoffs would go all in and jack up 15 shots in a row and not care whether they miss it all.

Rebounding - Kobe and Wade have been the better offensive rebounders for most of their careers. Defensive rebounding - for the most part unless you are getting outrebounded - you are taking boards from your team mates and not your opponents.

2009 against Orlando - Lebron when playing poorly wanted to rack up rebounds, ending up not closing on Turk and Lewis and thats why they were going off all series with their 3's.

Assists - Lebron having better court vision than Wade? absolutely stupid. He gets more assist than Wade. He is passes more than Wade. He does not have better court vision. See my first point as to why he gets more assist.

Defense - offball defense is non existent. Steals and blocks are not offball defense. He makes a lot of mistakes that hurts him in the playoffs. He has a bad habit of letting a man run past him so he can go for a block. I remember 2009 against Orlando, he let Courtney Lee at half court so he can get a chasedown, ending up getting dunked on.

All in all, Good thing he is playing with Wade now because Lebron can now get the stats he wants and win playoff games probably as the 2nd option.


Worst post ever. Watch some Miami Heat Games Kiddo!!!!

[donald_trump]

Let me settle this with some facts, if you are to lazy to thoroughly observe the info, then i can say in short words Wade is close but the edge is still clear towards Lebrons side in terms of who has been playing better for Heat.

LEBRON

PPG: 24.8
RPG: 6.8
APG: 7.3
FG .481%
3PT .358%
FT .773%
PER / EFF - 26 / 26
Win Shares - 6.9
Offensive Win Shares - 4.4
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

WADE

PPG: 25.0
RPG: 6.5
APG: 4.2
FG .495%
3PT .313%
FT .742%
PER / EFF - 26 / 24
Win Shares - 6.2
Offensive Win Shares - 3.9
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

And this, the biggest decievable stat here is the +/-, you can overlook it if you wish.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7963/82games.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9906/82games2.jpg

now let me school you on your own statistics which you posted. wades average +/- with him off and on the court is higher than lebrons, as is bosh's who has higher than both.

wades net is lower because hes played two less games. same with the win shares. their win shares per minute of play is identical. wades per is higher, though i like how you covered by rounding wades down to equal lebrons.

so... basically, your own stats dont support you.

yes lebron is more productive because he plays the more ball dominant role.

and yes he is a better player, though not for the dumbass reasons you stated, as they dont even support your theory.

im probably a bigger wade fan than lebron but for anyone who actually thinks wade is better than lebron, youre kidding.

[Inactive]

I don't consider myself a casual fan by any strech since I watch much more games than most fans do. Pay extra money for leauge pass, and spend half my time on basketball forums. Just because I don't spend 90% of my time observing stats on basketball reference and instead spend my time watching games doesn't support any claim of being a" More casual fan".It doesn't matter what you consider yourself to be. I assumed that you would understand from the context that I was referring to the depth of analysis when I used the term "casual".



Baseless? I'll tell you exactly who's carried their team, Who's been more clutch, Who's a better rebounder, Who's a better post player ext.

(HYPOTHETICAL)

And at the end of the day that guy I'm arguing with would be the person who's opinion would be taking less serios because anyone who's watched both
mAVS AND Raptors games can confirm this and who's the better player. ... I bet Bosh's mom has watched more of his games than you have, and I bet she thinks Bosh >>>>> Dirk. I've seen people who've watched hundreds of nba games state that Scottie Pippin > Lebron James. If a guy from Ohio, and a guy from Florida/Illinois watch every Heat game together, they will likely have different opinions about how good Lebron is in relation to Wade. This is why you need evidence for your arguments to hold water. Watching a lot of games doesn't qualify you to make statements without evidence, anymore than looking through a telescope all day would qualify you to make unsubstantiated statements about cosmology.


If you find it difficult to accurately asses the effectiveness of players over a stretch of games that's your personal problem. I've never had that problem cause I spend a lot of my time examining games and re watching them. Basketball is a simple sport where you see everything.

EVery point I make in a basketball argument can be confirmed by watching games. And I'll personally cut up a two hour complete game into sections just to prove a point.You're confirming the accuracy of your own opinions, and you think that makes them objectively true? All I can say to that is :oldlol: . I can personally confirm that it's cold outside. I've checked it several times, and used multiple thermometers. Therefor global warming is bunk. Can't believe those dumb scientists sit in their climate controlled offices, looking at numbers, and think they know whats up.

[donald_trump]

. I can personally confirm that it's cold outside. I've checked it several times, and used multiple thermometers. Therefor global warming is bunk. Can't believe those dumb scientists sit in their climate controlled offices, looking at numbers, and think they know whats up.

what a terrible example you used for your own case.

a large majority of stats and advance stats support wade anyway. along with his actions and recent play on the court. what yung d-will is saying is perfectly fine. you seem to be insinuating he doesnt look at stats at all, which he has stated otherwise.

[Inactive]

what a terrible example you used for your own case.

a large majority of stats and advance stats support wade anyway. along with his actions and recent play on the court. what yung d-will is saying is perfectly fine. you seem to be insinuating he doesnt look at stats at all, which he has stated otherwise.What is your objection to my analogy?

I'm not arguing that Lebron is better than Wade, or vice versa.

Whether he looks at stats or not is irrelevant.

[alenleomessi]

Blake Griffin

[bluechox2]

wade cannot defer to lebron, hes finally got a shot at winning mvp by keeping lebron at check in his own backyard.

[M.V.P]

wade cannot defer to lebron, hes finally got a shot at winning mvp by keeping lebron at check in his own backyard.
Wade has no shot for MVP unless LeBron goes down with injury. They both hurt each others chances of winning the award.

[Simple Jack]

I'm not saying that he can't because he does do it. And I'm not saying be perfect at EVERY aspect because no one is or ever has been. I'm saying that he has weakness that can be softened. Me personally I don't think it's silly to suggest Kobe as a better, more complete player. MJ didn't always put up the most dominant numbers especially later in his career but everyone still regarded him as the hands down best player in the league. (I'm not comparing him to Kobe, LeBron or anyone else it's just for reference). Like I said, LeBron is the Box Score King, but as far as what he is capable of doing in his game right now, his level of skill vs athleticism, he is not the best in my opinion. If you disagree that's fine. We just judge players in a different manner is all.

No they didn't.

You judge players on skill rather than actual impact as evident in your argument. Let me ask you, who's better, Dwight or Pau? I mentioned this in my previous post but according to your logic it should be Pau by a wide margin.

[arifgokcen]

If you think Lebron is the best player in basketball based on his stats than you don't understand basketball.

Here are the reasons why:

A 1st option player needs to be aggresive for the whole game. It is silly compare how many points and FG% between 1st option players because as long as you stay aggressive, you are going to make it easier for your team mates. Now I watch Lebron play a lot and he is too passive and is an opportunistic scorer. This means he only takes the shots that are there. Now this is great and all for his stats but when he can't find his shot he'll throw it at his team mate and expect them to jack one up or he'll do nothing at all. He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. There is nothing wrong with the way he plays but thats not how a dominant 1st option should play. Thats why I give a nod to Wade and Bryant. Wade and Bryant if they were in the brink of losing a crucial game in the playoffs would go all in and jack up 15 shots in a row and not care whether they miss it all.

Rebounding - Kobe and Wade have been the better offensive rebounders for most of their careers. Defensive rebounding - for the most part unless you are getting outrebounded - you are taking boards from your team mates and not your opponents.

2009 against Orlando - Lebron when playing poorly wanted to rack up rebounds, ending up not closing on Turk and Lewis and thats why they were going off all series with their 3's.

Assists - Lebron having better court vision than Wade? absolutely stupid. He gets more assist than Wade. He is passes more than Wade. He does not have better court vision. See my first point as to why he gets more assist.

Defense - offball defense is non existent. Steals and blocks are not offball defense. He makes a lot of mistakes that hurts him in the playoffs. He has a bad habit of letting a man run past him so he can go for a block. I remember 2009 against Orlando, he let Courtney Lee run past him at half court so he can get a chasedown, ending up getting dunked on.

All in all, Good thing he is playing with Wade now because Lebron can now get the stats he wants and win playoff games probably as the 2nd option.

This might be the worst post ever.Most stupid part was
"He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. "
How on earth "opportunistic" player scored 30 points on regular basis and still rack up 9 dimes and 7 rebounds and 1,7 steals and 1 blocks.You are kidding right.
You my friend are the troll of the year.
What more can you expect from a player average 50ppg

[Indian guy]

His own play aside, Cleveland's play has firmly established LeBron as the biggest difference maker in the league. It's hard to argue for anyone else for the league's best player the last 3 seasons.

[asdf1990]

Lol lebron made wade better. Now wade can focus on scoring only and not trying to set his teammates up. 1 month doesn't change the fact that lebron has been more consistent. If anyone in Miami is gonna win MVP it's gonna be lebron. Lebron without wade 60 wins, wade without lebron 40 wins

[donald_trump]

Lol lebron made wade better. Now wade can focus on scoring only and not trying to set his teammates up. 1 month doesn't change the fact that lebron has been more consistent. If anyone in Miami is gonna win MVP it's gonna be lebron. Lebron without wade 60 wins, wade without lebron 40 wins

yeah... a team with wade and bosh would win 40 despite wade winning 45 with a far worse cast...

not to mention wade and bosh on the court together have been the most productive duo in the nba with the highest +/- average.

[donald_trump]

His own play aside, Cleveland's play has firmly established LeBron as the biggest difference maker in the league. It's hard to argue for anyone else for the league's best player the last 3 seasons.

you could argue the point hes the biggest difference maker ever apart from shaq. i mean looking back on jordans career, even he didnt make that much of a difference on a team.

[pegasus]

It's useless to debate over whom the best player in the NBA is while we are still in the regular season. That's why we have the regular season MVP award, and it goes to the player who's the most valuable to his (winning) team.

IMO, the best player in the NBA should be decided in the playoffs. If you fail to play to the potential you show all year in the regular season, then your name has no business in being in the best player discussion.

Show me all you can do in the playoffs, then I will give you the award. There's no pre-ordering when it comes to "the best player".

[donald_trump]

It's useless to debate over whom the best player in the NBA is while we are still in the regular season. That's why we have the regular season MVP award, and it goes to the player who's the most valuable to his (winning) team.

IMO, the best player in the NBA should be decided in the playoffs. If you fail to play to the potential you show all year in the regular season, then your name has no business in being in the best player discussion.

Show me all you can do in the playoffs, then I will give you the award. There's no pre-ordering when it comes to "the best player".

youre retarded.

so a player can struggle for 82 games and show up for 25 later and hes the best. what nonsense. keep your bs to yourself.

[pegasus]

youre retarded.

so a player can struggle for 82 games and show up for 25 later and hes the best. what nonsense. keep your bs to yourself.

Irony.

You didn't have to go to that extreme. Of course no player will struggle for 82 games and play god-like and win the NBA finals for his team.

If you were talking about Kobe, you should know that he's not struggling for 82 games. He has already played bunch of very good games. His name is still in the MVP award discussion (I'd say in top 10), and we all know that him and his team will get out of their current slump (see last two games). So your scenario does not apply to him, and I don't know who else you could be talking about.

[LA_Showtime]

It's clear as day that LeBron's the best player in the NBA. Forget stats; watch the damn games.

[asdf1990]

yeah... a team with wade and bosh would win 40 despite wade winning 45 with a far worse cast...

not to mention wade and bosh on the court together have been the most productive duo in the nba with the highest +/- average.

And bosh has a higher +/- than lebron and wade, James Jones is amongst the top 15 in +/-. don't use garbage stats next time. Lebron James is and will be the best player until he starts to decline. I like what wade is doing and all but lebron is the better player.

[Lebron23]

It's clear as day that LeBron's the best player in the NBA. Forget stats; watch the damn games.


You, Catch24, Doranku, GTS, Socalmike, Lakers1987 and All Net are some of the Non-biased Lakers fans in this forum. I have seen All Net defended LeBron in the Lakersground.logic.net. I swear to God that's the last time I am going to visit that forum.

[PowerGlove]

You, Catch24, Lakers1987 and All Net are some of the Non-biased Lakers fans in this forum. I have seen All Net defended LeBron in the Lakersground.logic.net. I swear to God that's the last time I am going to visit that forum.
Co-sign this.

I like Doranku, he admits his bias. I cant stand when people deny it and still try to say they are unbiased.

[macpierce]

he probably is but playing with wade isnt helping people see it :confusedshrug:

[pauk]

what do u mean maybe? he has been playing better than anybody since his 2nd year in the nba

[LEFT4DEAD]

Lebron's FG% at 10-15 feet 33%
FG% at 15-20 feet 41%
That's average at best, and that's basically the same % he's shot since 2008
Where have you found those stats? Just curious.
And :lol at maybe!

[Pointguard]

I know there are only five players that are capable of leading the league in scoring.

Of the five only one seems capable of getting ten rebounds per game over the course of a year.

Of that five only one seems capable of getting ten assist per game over the course of a year.

Of those five one has better court vision than the rest.

Of those five one shoots threes better than the rest - (this year).

Of those five one finishes better than the rest.

Of those five one exercises better court judgment than the rest.

He's the most versatile player in the game.

He is the most likely to be on the all defensive team.

He is most likely to guard the opposing team's star wing player.

[crisoner]

Until LeBron leads a team to the championship he will be number 2.

[All Net]

It's clear as day that LeBron's the best player in the NBA. Forget stats; watch the damn games.

Even stats wise Lebron is the best player. His stats are down this year due to having the two other stars.

If Lebron wanted to he could easily average 30, 7 and 8 on 50% like last year.

He is averaging what, 24, 6 and 7 this year? still the best overall numbers IMO.

Although Wade is running him close right now, dude is balling like he was when he led Miami to the title . Kobe is my favourite player but you can't deny facts that both Lebron and Wade are the clear best two players right now. Scary thing is they are getting better and better playing together which is a worry for the rest of the league not just this season but for several more.

[Kurosawa0]

Honestly, I think right now the conversation has to be between Wade & LeBron with Kobe looking in from the outside.

Sure, you can argue that Kobe's the best player on the best team, but he's just not at either Wade or LeBron's level individually now. He's still going to get his numbers, but I don't see him overpower teams anymore. He can get hot and burn a defense with midrange shots now, but so can Paul Pierce. Wade and LeBron are the only two guys right now that can just destroy a team in a flurry.

To call Kobe the best right now is basing an argument off of team success and reputation. That's fine, but individually he's no longer the most effective player.

[Kurosawa0]

Scary thing is they are getting better and better playing together which is a worry for the rest of the league not just this season but for several more.

Well, and they're killing teams so easily. When Wade or LeBron get 35, it's different now. It used to be that they just muscled their way to those numbers. Now, it seems like Wade will drop 40 and not break a sweat.

They do have holes, but no team has anything like Wade & LeBron. Each may only have to have a really good game once or twice in a series. Before, they had to be great four times to have a chance. I look at these must-win games (game five against Boston aside), both players tend to show up in big games. If it's a 2-2 series, I wonder if even Boston could keep both of them in check.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Honestly, I think right now the conversation has to be between Wade & LeBron with Kobe looking in from the outside.
Wade and LeBron are the two best players in the league right now, following is Kobe at 3rd (he'll kick it up another notch come post season and probably superceed one or both of these guys) ...

But them both being equals (Wade and LeBron) they negate each other for MVP votes, and there is no gap between them as players. Regardless of what any LeBron stan wants to tell you. I've never met a crazy, delusional Wade, btw. Scratch that ... maybe just one. Papaya Pete (sp) ?

:oldlol:

[Kurosawa0]

Wade and LeBron are the two best players in the league right now, following is Kobe at 3rd (he'll kick it up another notch come post season and probably superceed one or both of these guys) ...

But them both being equals (Wade and LeBron) they negate each other for MVP votes, and there is no gap between them as players. Regardless of what any LeBron stan wants to tell you. I've never met a crazy, delusional Wade, btw. Scratch that ... maybe just one. Papaya Pete (sp) ?

:oldlol:

I've always felt LeBron was the best of the two, but it wasn't by a large margin. If LeBron's better than Wade or vice versa, it's by like 10%.

[sh0wtime]

Until LeBron leads a team to the championship he will be number 2.

Dont you mean number 4? Shaq, Duncan led their team to championships aswell and from what i know they are still playing today. Dont let the fact of Lebron playing better than Kobe, Shaq, Duncan right now come in between that logic right? :) Make it number 5 for Lebron considering Wade also led his team to a championship aswell. Thats right, with your logic Lebron is out of Top 5 and is no more one of the best players in the league because he didnt lead a team to something what is the biggest team accomplishment in NBA history, to something which is impossible to win alone, to something which not even if you averaged a 50 point quadruple double you couldnt win if you didnt had the required level of efficiency from your teammates, coach, staff, franchise beside you.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I've always felt LeBron was the best of the two, but it wasn't by a large margin. If LeBron's better than Wade or vice versa, it's by like 10%.
Not even ... absolutely equal. What marginal difference you feel LeBron brings to on the court value (it isn't anything significant, but you're a LeBron stan ..) Wade probably is better with things from a mental capacity and intangibles. Neither one of them has clearly separated themselves from one another.

[canefandynasty]

I think Wade > LeBron because he is more reliable in the post season. Durability is the only reason why LeBron has advantages in the regular season. Wade should have 2-3 rings by now if not for freak injuries.

[tpols]

Lebron and Wade and the heat in general are playing A LOT harder than kobe and the lakers right now because they have a lot more to prove(and a lot higher expectations to live up to).. does anyone disagree with this? Because it is a big factor for why theyre playing better right now..

Come playoff time.. when kobe and pau up their games and start going hard again the discussion will be much closer, but for now lebron is easily the best basketball player in the game.

[T-bomb 25]

Right now in the League i only see a few players that can absolutely destroy teams and that is Lebron,Wade,Melo,and Rose.Guys that can do it when their hot D-Will,Durant,Amare,Westbrook,Dirk,Pierce,Manu,and i would say Kobe is in this group in this stage of his career which is still good company with the team he has to bad for Roy who falls out of either group with his potential career ending knee injury and im still not sure which group Arenas will fall in yet.

[tpols]

Right now in the League i only see a few players that can absolutely destroy teams and that is Lebron,Wade,Melo,and Rose.Guys that can do it when their hot D-Will,Durant,Amare,Westbrook,Dirk,Pierce,Manu,and i would say Kobe is in this group in this stage of his career which is still good company with the team he has to bad for Roy who falls out of either group with his potential career ending knee injury.
Rose doesn't even come close to impacting the game as much as wade or lebron right now. And come playoff time he won't touch those two or kobe.

In the playoffs, lebron, wade, and kobe are all on a separate plane from the rest of the league.

[Kurosawa0]

Lebron and Wade and the heat in general are playing A LOT harder than kobe and the lakers right now because they have a lot more to prove(and a lot higher expectations to live up to).. does anyone disagree with this?

I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.
They are old and slower. They also are clearly disinterested.

[Kurosawa0]

Not even ... absolutely equal. What marginal difference you feel LeBron brings to on the court value (it isn't anything significant, but you're a LeBron stan ..) Wade probably is better with things from a mental capacity and intangibles. Neither one of them has clearly separated themselves from one another.

It's the physical component. LeBron has and always will be the bigger mismatch for any team's defense. Wade just can't match that.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.

Not just perimeter defense. ALL defense. Interior, Transition and Perimeter. They are starting to look very lethargic out there. They don't even score in transition nearly as much yet their opponents are running all over them. That's their biggest issue in my opinion. Forget Kobe taking a lot of shots the defense needs to get corrected first.

[T-bomb 25]

Rose doesn't even come close to impacting the game as much as wade or lebron right now. And come playoff time he won't touch those two or kobe.

In the playoffs, lebron, wade, and kobe are all on a separate plane from the rest of the league.You must dont watch much of Rose,and to be honest except for Wade early in their careers in the playoffs well rookie season to second season Rose played better in the playoffs than Lebron and Kobe,and this is facts not a opinion....

[Kurosawa0]

They are old and slower. They also are clearly disinterested.

Nah, the disinterested thing is just an excuse.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It's the physical component. LeBron has and always will be the bigger mismatch for any team's defense. Wade just can't match that.
Not true at all. LeBron is a mismatch for any team defense, yes .. but LeBron hardly ... if ever takes advantage of that mismatch in an appropriate way. IE using his one advantage he has over Wade (his size) in the post. He doesn't do that. And as of right now, Wade is a much better post player and off the ball player than LeBron.

Wade is just as big of a mismatch for teams as LeBron. No one on the floor can stop him from getting from point a to point b, or him doing whatever he wants out there.

You can try to justify it all you'd like. But there is no clear separation. Even in resumes. LeBron 2 MVP's? Great. Wade? A championship (best player on team) and NBA Finals MVP? Equally as great.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Nah, the disinterested thing is just an excuse.
Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.

I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.

[Kurosawa0]

You can try to justify it all you'd like. But there is no clear separation. Even in resumes. LeBron 2 MVP's? Great. Wade? A championship (best player on team) and NBA Finals MVP? Equally as great.

Try to justify? Sounds like you're the one trying to push something.

I've watched these guys since they came in and Wade is just not better. LeBron is the guy you take, always. Wade's damn close, but I'm not taking a 6'4 shooting guard over a 6'8 point forward.

No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.

It's close, but LeBron is the choice, objectively anyway.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.
Because of hype, potential, etc.

As actual players, they are neck and neck.

Who are you kidding ..

[Kurosawa0]

Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.

I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.

That may have been true a few years ago, but I can see Kobe dogging it and missing thirteen shots in a row. I remember Wade getting by him with ease. Fisher getting killed by Parker... Artest looking like a fool against LeBron.

These were physical limitations. Not lack of interest.

When I hear these kinds of BS arguments about lack of interest, it sounds like Lakers fans' hopes rather than what's actually happening.

[Knoe Itawl]

Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.

I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.

Sorry, but this is garbage. Or if it's true, then the Lakers are fools. The NBA has gotten better, both in the West and the East (as far as the top teams are concerned). Boston is much better than last year. The Heat obviously are. Ditto Dallas and San Antonio. The homecourt advantage will be HUGE this year. There is a good chance LA doesn't win the title without it the past couple of years. When they began this malaise, Dallas and SA were far ahead of them. If they think they can just depend on cruising through the season and get a 3rd or worse seed and then "turn it on" when they feel like it, then they're stupid. Further, there are differences in how they've performed this year so far and how they have previously even WITH the regular season doldrums they may have had in the past.

Like I said, if they have no interest in securing homecourt then they're fools. Since I don't think they're fools, I'd say it's a bit more than "disinterest". Now, things could change by the end of the year but at this point right now, pointing to disinterest IS an excuse because they have to realize how important getting the top seed is.

[Kurosawa0]

Because of hype, potential, etc.

As actual players, they are neck and neck.

Who are you kidding ..

Please. Who are you kidding? That's just trash right there. "Hype" "Potential"

These guys have played 8 seasons. We've gone beyond hype and potential.

Dude, I get it. You don't like the guy. Fine. :oldlol:

[thejumpa]

Because of hype, potential, etc.

As actual players, they are neck and neck.

Who are you kidding ..

To be fair, no one is going to take Wade over LeBron for a few different reasons. Age and potential are the two biggest ones. LeBron is still evolving as a player and is 4 years younger than Wade. That means something if we are talking about taking who or who. Realistically speaking, they are extremely close as individual players. Both can score at will, take over games, can go 1 on 5, have impressive resumes, and are legitimate superstars. The only reason I would say LeBron is better is because he's a little more versatile than Wade is. If he ever figured out how to use his body the right way, I don't think anyone would argue about Kobe,Wade,Howard,etc... being better. It would be a given.

[ILLsmak]

That trust you have in your opinions is one of the limitations I was referring to.

Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?

Unless you're validating your impressions with data, and corroborating with (relatively) unbiased observers, your opinion is practically worthless. You're delusional, if you think otherwise.


You forgot to mention that most data based studies start with an assumption or hypothesis that someone made. Then they progress and prove it with data. If you think about it, it might not be PROVEN before the data comes out, but their assumption was correct when it was made; it just needed to be shoved down people's throats for it to be accepted. This is true for most unconventional ideas.

You also are trying to compare people who the average man would define as idiots or, at least, sheep, to the person you are debating. I'd say that unless you can point out something that he has said that shows such bias or blindness, then you're just talking about 'some people' opposed to him.

No matter what you say, your eyes are the best bet for judging things. The more you have studied data, the more your eyes are trained to tell what matters and what doesn't.

By the way, if you label anything that disagrees with you as biased, how does that even make sense?

We all know that stats are very misleading. There are plenty of stats that I believe they could come up with that would be more 'advanced', but they haven't really tapped into that. Even stuff like PER uses basic stats in a formula. Again, stats could tell more of the story than they do, but since they are so subjective (no stat for boxing out, no stat for helping on defense, no real way to determine what kind of a basket is assisted, no stat for correctly swinging the ball... etc) how can you say they are any less subjective than an educated fan's opinion?

Just my 2 cents... but I think LeBron does have a case for best player.

-Smak

[LEFT4DEAD]

Try to justify? Sounds like you're the one trying to push something.

I've watched these guys since they came in and Wade is just not better. LeBron is the guy you take, always. Wade's damn close, but I'm not taking a 6'4 shooting guard over a 6'8 point forward.

No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.

It's close, but LeBron is the choice, objectively anyway.
Are you sure? :rolleyes:

[Kurosawa0]

Are you sure? :rolleyes:

What? Do you mean that Wade isn't really 6'4? :lol

[LEFT4DEAD]

What? Do you mean that Wade isn't really 6'4? :lol
My bad, I thought MJ was 6'4 but he was little taller. :lol

[Kurosawa0]

My bad, I thought MJ was 6'4 but he was little taller. :lol

He was supposedly 6'6.

Anyway, I was just saying that Wade is a bit undersized for a two guard.

[LEFT4DEAD]

He was supposedly 6'6.

Anyway, I was just saying that Wade is a bit undersized for a two guard.
He has perfect combination of speed, quickness, weight and strength for his position and he is compensating his height with out of this planet athletism. And he was always combo guard for me. Great playmaker and penetrator in the same time with great court vision. And for me it's little doubtfull saying "undersized" for a player who has been top 10 at worse since his 2nd year.

[Kurosawa0]

He has perfect combination of speed, quickness, weight and strength for his position and he is compensating his height with out of this planet athletism. And he was always combo guard for me. Great playmaker and penetrator in the same time with great court vision. And for me it's little doubtfull saying "undersized" for a player who has been top 10 at worse since his 2nd year.

But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.

[Knoe Itawl]

But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.

That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.

Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.

[LEFT4DEAD]

But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.
It's better to be undersized and to have others qualities like speed and athletism than to be taller and slow with bad ball handling skills etc. Just sayin'.

[Kurosawa0]

That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.

Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.

Sure, but it's about what you'd rather have. If I have two players, fairly similar talent level, I'm not taking the undersized one of the two.

[canefandynasty]

That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.

Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.

I agree. Wade has long arms, with gorilla hands, and is buffer than most SGs anyway. Wade is a physical specimen at SG.

[Simple Jack]

-Smak


Is there any reason you sign your posts? It's as if you don't think I am capable of just scrolling up a bit or looking to the left and seeing your name right above your avatar. Just wondering.

[canefandynasty]

Sure, but it's about what you'd rather have. If I have two players, fairly similar talent level, I'm not taking the undersized one of the two.

I think Wade is a more deceptive scorer. He is better at getting to the rim. I don't think LeBron is as reliable (scoring-wise) as Wade, especially against tough defenses in the postseason. He is still a poor off-ball player, too.

Wade can get to the rim better than LeBron, and is more unguardable IMO. He is the least likely of the two to get shut down by defensive specialists.

[LEFT4DEAD]

I think Wade is a more deceptive scorer. He is better at getting to the rim. I don't think LeBron is as reliable (scoring-wise) as Wade, especially against tough defenses in the postseason. He is still a poor off-ball player, too.

Wade can get to the rim better than LeBron, and is more unguardable IMO. He is the least likely of the two to shut down.
We have saw that against Celtics last year. They were only threats on their teams and Wade has had much better series against Celtics. I agree he is more unguardable than Lebron.

[Knoe Itawl]

Sure, but it's about what you'd rather have. If I have two players, fairly similar talent level, I'm not taking the undersized one of the two.

I think it depends on the players rather than a blanket statement. It may generally be true, but there are always exceptions. Also, as has been mentioned Wade has other factors which make any height deficiencies largely irrelevant.

A. He's stronger than every other guard at his position, and in general.
B. His arms are longer than the average person of his height
C. He's explosively quick
D. He is a great leaper
E. He's extremely crafty and agile around the basket

I could go on. Like I said, Wade may be slightly undersized for what has traditionally been heights for sgs but it just doesn't matter.

[Lebron23]

He's truly the best player in the NBA.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Noyze]

All I know is LeBron shit on Portland tonight

[sayitaintso]

LeBron with the Pooland dagger.

[Lebron23]

LeBron " The Blazers Killer" James

[Wow15Characters]

Of course this man is.
Neega didn't wanna go fo' a consecutivo recordo of MVP awards but that 1 lil' round object that you put around da fingzzz

[jrong]

As I said when he hits his outside shot like that, he's just a different animal....

But regardless, one thing is true with certainty-- whoever the best player is in the NBA, he plays basketball for the Miami Heat:cheers:

[jlauber]

44 points on 17-26 shooting, 13 rebounds, and 6 assists tonight.

[pauk]

44 points on 17-26 shooting, 13 rebounds, and 6 assists tonight.

dont forget also he won the game with those stats, it was not just a simple statline, he did those things in the crunch time :bowdown:

[jlauber]

dont forget also he won the game with those stats, it was not just a simple statline, he did those things in the crunch time :bowdown:

I agree 100%. I have been getting a kick out of all of the negatives that Lebron has been getting on this forum. Before the season started, he was hailed as a "Robin." Some posters said that Cleveland would still be a playoff team. And after the Heat started out 9-8, it was LEBRON that was getting ripped.

I have said it before, but I find it hard to believe that so many owners and GM's, most all far more successful and educated than the vast majority that frequent this forum, ...were being shredded here for "chasing" after LBJ the last couple of years.

Same with the critics of Dwight Howard. Everytime he "only" puts up a 15-10 game, new threads pop up about how over-rated the guy is. Here again, I suspect that if there were draft of all of the NBA players playing today, that Lebron would go #1, and Howard would be in the top-5, and perhaps as high as #2.

[sh0wtime]

I agree 100%. I have been getting a kick out of all of the negatives that Lebron has been getting on this forum. Before the season started, he was hailed as a "Robin." Some posters said that Cleveland would still be a playoff team. And after the Heat started out 9-8, it was LEBRON that was getting ripped.

I have said it before, but I find it hard to believe that so many owners and GM's, most all far more successful and educated than the vast majority that frequent this forum, ...were being shredded here for "chasing" after LBJ the last couple of years.

Same with the critics of Dwight Howard. Everytime he "only" puts up a 15-10 game, new threads pop up about how over-rated the guy is. Here again, I suspect that if there were draft of all of the NBA players playing today, that Lebron would go #1, and Howard would be in the top-5, and perhaps as high as #2.

A much needed post!

[Killer_Instinct]

Let's be real. There's no longer a (maybe) in front of this title for Lebron. Throw all the PC shit out the window. I can't stand his character, but he's without doubt playing the best basketball in the league right now.

[sh0wtime]

Let's be real. There's no longer a (maybe) in front of this title for Lebron. Throw all the PC shit out the window. I can't stand his character, but he's without doubt playing the best basketball in the league right now.

I agree, but i think the gap between Lebron & Wade is not that ridicilously big though and i still think Kobe has that mojo in him (you will see it sooner or later, i hope), so there could be a bit of doubt anyways for some. Now im speaking ability wise, but as far as who is playing the best i have to give it to Lebron, its getting a bit more obvious, especially with games like tonight.

[Pointguard]

The real interesting aspect of his year is that he totally defers in the first half. He's doesn't push his total game until the third quarter, yet, he is definitely in the running for MVP.

[The Decision]

Lebron has one good game and people are trying to get in his pants.
Chill it, its just one freaking game. Wade scored 44 points back to back like a week ago and didn't get this much treatment.

Chill out!

[jrong]

The real interesting aspect of his year is that he totally defers in the first half. He's doesn't push his total game until the third quarter, yet, he is definitely in the running for MVP.

It's not that he defers to Wade in the first half. They defer to each other whenever the other one has it going. That's why both of them are in the running.

And they're getting very good at knowing when to be the one to step forward and when to step back. Tonight Wade stepped back, yet look at his line! He shot 15/22, but he was still willing to stand aside.

In fact, the only game where the two have gotten the balance wrong since they were 9-8 is the only one they lost. The Dallas game was a "Wade-game" or should have been. However, James got into foul-trouble in the first half and over-compensated in the second half by trying to do way too much....

[sh0wtime]

The real interesting aspect of his year is that he totally defers in the first half. He's doesn't push his total game until the third quarter, yet, he is definitely in the running for MVP.

He did actually the same thing in Cleveland, play a strict pointforward role in 2-3 quarters and 4th quarter meant major business. When i think about it he has destroyed alot of career high assist games last season that way where he would probably had 20+ assists by the end of the games if he didnt go always in scoring mode instead in the 4th & OT.

He is doing the same with Heat, but now he has Wade & Bosh, he is sharing every duty with them, he will always just look to do the right plays. But when a guy is on fire, its the right play to just give him the ball and get the heck out of the way until he misses at least once hehe, this time it was Lebron, a couple of games ago it was Wade and it will keep going that way, maybe we will see Bosh aswell go nuts in crunch time aswell.

But its not that he "defers", its that he plays his role and making the right plays, he plays alot of point for them, lets not forget that.

[sh0wtime]

It's not that he defers to Wade in the first half. They defer to each other whenever the other one has it going. That's why both of them are in the running.

And they're getting very good at knowing when to be the one to step forward and when to step back. Tonight Wade stepped back, yet look at his line! He shot 15/22, but he was still willing to stand aside.

In fact, the only game where the two have gotten the balance wrong since they were 9-8 is the only one they lost. The Dallas game was a "Wade-game" or should have been. However, James got into foul-trouble in the first half and over-compensated in the second half by trying to do way too much....

Exactly!

[Fatstogie]

I agree with this^.

But id like to see them work of each other more. IMO they get it themselves seperately. They need to assist each other more often. Especially if lebron aint getting it. Easy solution. wade penetrate and shovel pass to lebron while hes got steam.

IMO they have kinda humbled themselves. But still not really willing to play off each other. Theyre coming around but still not doing near what i feel they could do if they played off each other more.

Like when one has the ball the other wont move. Everyone acts like they have to go one at a time. I want them both to attack the rim together more.

They could score more. Shit the others dont even need to do antying but play defense. lol but im sure theres whinning about that. So it sucks that theyll get held back because of that.

[RoseCity07]

Maybe? lol.

He is easily the best. No one is even close. The funny thing is, a lot of people think he still can't shoot the jump shot. He can. He hits clutch 3's, clutch mid range shots, and clutch free throws. His game is off the charts good now.

He can do every on the court. Wide open shots for teammates, get off any shot he wants, and even rebound and block shots.

[jrong]

Maybe? lol.

He is easily the best. No one is even close.

No, there's a guy on the same team who's pretty damn close. There are quite a few nights when he looks better in fact.

[Stuckey]

1a lebron
1b wade

[Micku]

LeBron improved on his jumpshot. But he did this last year too. I hope he keeps it this time around. It went away in the playoffs.

This year it looks pretty good though. It's been automatic.

It seems like Wade is steady improving on his jumpshot too, but he mainly attacks the rim now. Hopefully he'll get his jumper back in gear. Seems ok now.

[jrong]

LeBron improved on his jumpshot. But he did this last year too. I hope he keeps it this time around. It went away in the playoffs.

This year it looks pretty good though. It's been automatic.

It seems like Wade is steady improving on his jumpshot too, but he mainly attacks the rim now. Hopefully he'll get his jumper back in gear. Seems ok now.

Yep. Once Wade's jumpshot gets into playoff form, if LeBron continues to shoot the way he has all season, no team will take more than two games off the Heat in a series.

[Pointguard]

It's not that he defers to Wade in the first half. They defer to each other whenever the other one has it going. That's why both of them are in the running.

And they're getting very good at knowing when to be the one to step forward and when to step back. Tonight Wade stepped back, yet look at his line! He shot 15/22, but he was still willing to stand aside.

In fact, the only game where the two have gotten the balance wrong since they were 9-8 is the only one they lost. The Dallas game was a "Wade-game" or should have been. However, James got into foul-trouble in the first half and over-compensated in the second half by trying to do way too much....
True Jrong.
As Showtime states above there is this mental approach of seeing defensive strategies for a quarter or two and then the will and talent asserts itself in the second half. Dwade is much more likely to bring his force and energy early, which makes sense being that the defense should be on their heels the whole game. I still have Wade/Lebron at less than 40% of a max chemistry (a point where their flow gets the other easy production).

My point is that they aren't playing intuitively yet and staying in the MVP race. They have a lot to prove but you don't see a lot of ego out there. Am I right in saying that they have a delayed imprint on the game? DRose comes out in that Boston game and despite many good players in that game, I knew within the first minute, DRose was going to be the man that night. I can watch a Heat first half and have no idea whatsoever as to who is going to be the feature, and I have done this several times.

If Lebron wins the MVP I think another player should petition to be the first half of games MVP. Durant has shot 10 foul shots before Lebron is bringing it all. You really have to be good to be doing what Lebron is doing.

[Pointguard]

LeBron improved on his jumpshot. But he did this last year too. I hope he keeps it this time around. It went away in the playoffs.

This year it looks pretty good though. It's been automatic.

It seems like Wade is steady improving on his jumpshot too, but he mainly attacks the rim now. Hopefully he'll get his jumper back in gear. Seems ok now.
Hey Micku,
Their jumpshot is key because teams figure its better to just zone and create clutter around the basket which will at least limit easy access for the greatest slashers in the game. Once Mike Miller figures into the plan it really is going to be hard to stop them. It could be the best basketball we ever see.

[Nash-tastic]

I hate the guy, but I am impressed with the way the Heat is looking right now. At the beginning I was convinced this would be Wade's team but looking at both of them now, they can really defer to one another really well. Good luck Heat fans (The real ones) :cheers:

[All Net]

Hey Micku,
Their jumpshot is key because teams figure its better to just zone and create clutter around the basket which will at least limit easy access for the greatest slashers in the game. Once Mike Miller figures into the plan it really is going to be hard to stop them. It could be the best basketball we ever see.

Surprised how long it has taken Mike Miller to get back into the swing of things. That hand must be a problem.

[Indian guy]

LeBron improved on his jumpshot. But he did this last year too. I hope he keeps it this time around. It went away in the playoffs.

It didn't go away, he just ran into Boston - who make everyone look bad. LeBron was shooting the ball better than ever in the 1st round of the playoffs.

[d.bball.guy]

I'll take Bosh over LeBron and Wade.

[pegasus]

I'll take Bosh over LeBron and Wade.

I would, too. To clean my house. Plus, he would be less inclined to steal.

[arifgokcen]

I would, too. To clean my house. Plus, he would be less inclined to steal.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[PurpleChuck]

I would, too. To clean my house. Plus, he would be less inclined to steal.
:roll: :cheers: :applause:

[asdf1990]

Lebron has one good game and people are trying to get in his pants.
Chill it, its just one freaking game. Wade scored 44 points back to back like a week ago and didn't get this much treatment.

Chill out!

There's a 40 point game where u know the heat will win, then there is 40 point performance where he willed his team to a victory. He has been on a tear in the second half in the past few games. Wade made big plays but lebron delivered the daggers.

[pegasus]

There's a 40 point game where u know the heat will win, then there is 40 point performance where he willed his team to a victory. He has been on a tear in the second half in the past few games. Wade made big plays but lebron delivered the daggers.

I hate the guy, but I gotta admit that he was impressive last night. If he could play like that for the majority of the playoffs and then win the chip as a result of it, I could actually see myself respecting him again. But then again, he would probably go out and celebrate it all summer long in a disgustingly self-indulging way.

[sh0wtime]

I hate the guy, but I gotta admit that he was impressive last night. If he could play like that for the majority of the playoffs and then win the chip as a result of it, I could actually see myself respecting him again. But then again, he would probably go out and celebrate it all summer long in a disgustingly self-indulging way.

Dont hate the player, hate the game. :)

[canefandynasty]

I just hope LeBron can play the way he did last night, in the playoffs. I don't have to worry about Wade when it comes to that. Wade will certainly bring his A game, esp. against the toughest opponents. But, I don't know if LeBron can do that.

[LBJ 23]

I just hope LeBron can play the way he did last night, in the playoffs. I don't have to worry about Wade when it comes to that. Wade will certainly bring his A game, esp. against the toughest opponents. But, I don't know if LeBron can do that.

He can. But he will also have some bad games. No doubt about that. The difference is that he now has Wade and Bosh holding his back and not Mo and Jamison. We all know how great they shoot last year in playoffs when Lebron had a "bad game" or when "he quit", whatever you call it.

[LeFraud Shames]

Wait until he loses his athleticism.

It's going to be too late for him to develop a reliable jumper or a post game.

Or if he gets critically injured.

[Simple Jack]

Where does this "LeBron doesn't play well in the playoffs" myth come from? With the exception of 1 game really, in 1 series, he's played unbelievable throughout his career in the playoffs. 09 was one of the best playoff runs in NBA history.

[BallsOut]

Where does this "LeBron doesn't play well in the playoffs" myth come from? With the exception of 1 game really, in 1 series, he's played unbelievable throughout his career in the playoffs. 09 was one of the best playoff runs in NBA history.

2007 Spurs in the Finals

2008 Celtics

2010 Celtics

I wonder how Lebron did in those series. :oldlol:

[canefandynasty]

I do think LeBron will step his game up in the postseason. However, if things get rough, I hope he doesn't start jacking up shots to shoot himself back into rhythm. It won't work in the playoffs against Boston or LA.

[LeFraud Shames]

He can. But he will also have some bad games. No doubt about that. The difference is that he now has Wade and Bosh holding his back and not Mo and Jamison. We all know how great they shoot last year in playoffs when Lebron had a "bad game" or when "he quit", whatever you call it.


The only difference is LeBron never gave Mo or Jamison a chance. His "leadership skills" wouldn't allow it.

If you watched the Cavs games, you could clearly see the ball was always in Lebron's hands, and the offense was ALWAYS run for James' style of play.

They might have done well with that in the regular season, but the playoffs are a completely different scenario.

If he had gotten them more involved during the season instead of trying to do it all by himself, Cleveland's role players might have stepped it up when it mattered most.

But I do agree with you in a sense.

Bosh and Wade will definitely step up when Lebron is having an off night. But only because Lebron trusts them enough to let them.

If that isn't what you call a diva, I don't know what is.

[Pointguard]

Surprised how long it has taken Mike Miller to get back into the swing of things. That hand must be a problem.

The hand heeled right but he wasn't shooting as much and lost his touch. I hear that if Ray Allen doesn't shoot at least 200 times a day his shot will likely be off. I don't know but maybe Miller has to get his 4000 jump shots in.

[madmax]

The only difference is LeBron never gave Mo or Jamison a chance. His "leadership skills" wouldn't allow it.

If you watched the Cavs games, you could clearly see the ball was always in Lebron's hands, and the offense was ALWAYS run for James' style of play.

They might have done well with that in the regular season, but the playoffs are a completely different scenario.

If he had gotten them more involved during the season instead of trying to do it all by himself, Cleveland's role players might have stepped it up when it mattered most.

But I do agree with you in a sense.

Bosh and Wade will definitely step up when Lebron is having an off night. But only because Lebron trusts them enough to let them.

If that isn't what you call a diva, I don't know what is.

would you prefer the ball to be in Mo "I choke whenever playoffs start" Williams hands? Please elaborate how his scrub supporting cast would have done better by having the ball in their hands more...

[Simple Jack]

2007 Spurs in the Finals

2008 Celtics

2010 Celtics

I wonder how Lebron did in those series. :oldlol:


If that's the case, then hold other players to the same standard.

It amazes me how when LeBron has a bad shooting game, you guys disregard the other things he did in the game. When Kobe has a bad shooting game, you can't stop talking about how many boards or assists he dished out.

No player is going to play well in every playoff game or series. It's hard to find a game where LeBron doesn't contribute in some way; most of the games he shot poorly, he dominated in other facets (this is a theme with LeBron not only in the playoffs, but the regular season. His bad shooting games also come equipped with near triple doubles).


You would think getting past Detroit to even meet the Spurs in the finals after one of the greatest performances in playoff history would put an end to this claim but no such luck.

[Simple Jack]

BallOut, why don't you do us a favor and post the top players in the NBA's numbers in the regular season vs the post season.

[LeFraud Shames]

would you prefer the ball to be in Mo "I choke whenever playoffs start" Williams hands? Please elaborate how his scrub supporting cast would have done better by having the ball in their hands more...

I meant if he looked to get his players going during the regular season, then the scrubs would actually look to do something with the ball, instead of just passing it right back to LeBron.

It was just an ongoing cycle.

LeBron would only give up the ball when he lost his dribble. At that point he would pass to the closest man, and the player wouldn't know what to do with it, because THEIR ENTIRE ****ING OFFENSE ONLY WENT THROUGH LEBRON.

[LeFraud Shames]

I meant if he looked to get his players going during the regular season, then the scrubs would actually look to do something with the ball, instead of just passing it right back to LeBron.

It was just an ongoing cycle.

LeBron would only give up the ball when he lost his dribble. At that point he would pass to the closest man, and the player wouldn't know what to do with it, because THEIR ENTIRE ****ING OFFENSE ONLY WENT THROUGH LEBRON.

And I'm not just saying this because I despise LeBron James and all he stands for.

I'm just stating the facts. One player can't win it all by himself.

Look at Kobe after Shaq left.
He spent the prime of his career chasing the impossible championship, all by his lonesome nonetheless.

He finally got a reliable second option in Pau, and that's all she wrote.

[The_Yearning]

No, there's a guy on the same team who's pretty damn close. There are quite a few nights when he looks better in fact.

Naw. It's easily LBJ.

[Papaya Petee]

:rolleyes: LeBron averaged 26\8\7 45% vs Boston Last year in the playoffs

in 2008 he averaged 25\7\7 on 46% vs Boston.

If those are "shut down" series for Bron, then Kobe must of been shut down a lot more.

[catch24]

:rolleyes: LeBron averaged 26\8\7 45% vs Boston Last year in the playoffs

in 2008 he averaged 25\7\7 on 46% vs Boston.

If those are "shut down" series for Bron, then Kobe must of been shut down a lot more.

Nevermind alot more, those have been Kobe's regular season numbers (with the exception of ast/reb) the past two or so seasons. :oldlol:

[Papaya Petee]

Nevermind alot more, those have been Kobe's regular season numbers (with the exception of ast/reb) the past two or so seasons. :oldlol:
No hate intended for Kobe, but those who nag on LeBron's playoff numbers outside of the Spurs series, are foolish.

I still believe that Wade is the best playoff performer in the NBA.

[canefandynasty]

Naw. It's easily LBJ.

That same guy has the best Finals performance in NBA history. LBJ has never won a game in the Finals.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:rolleyes: LeBron averaged 26\8\7 45% vs Boston Last year in the playoffs

in 2008 he averaged 25\7\7 on 46% vs Boston.

If those are "shut down" series for Bron, then Kobe must of been shut down a lot more.

I usually defend Lebron, but I have to point out that e actually shot 36% vs Boston in '08 and averaged 5.3 turnovers per game.

And last year, the final numbers aren't really an accurate representation of his performance in the Boston series, because him having 3 poor games in a row to end the series makets it hard for me to look at the final numbers and judge his performance that way.

In those last 3 games.he averaged 21.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg and 8.3 apg, but he shot 34% from the field, 15.4% on 3s(2/13) and he averaged 6.3 turnovers.

Really, the problem with the Boston series is that he had 2 great games(1 and 3), both of which Cleveland won and then 4 other games that ranged from mediocre to horrible, all of which, Cleveland lost.

[ginobli2311]

I usually defend Lebron, but I have to point out that e actually shot 36% vs Boston in '08 and averaged 5.3 turnovers per game.

And last year, the final numbers aren't really an accurate representation of his performance in the Boston series, because him having 3 poor games in a row to end the series makets it hard for me to look at the final numbers and judge his performance that way.

In those last 3 games.he averaged 21.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg and 8.3 apg, but he shot 34% from the field, 15.4% on 3s(2/13) and he averaged 6.3 turnovers.

Really, the problem with the Boston series is that he had 2 great games(1 and 3), both of which Cleveland won and then 4 other games that ranged from mediocre to horrible, all of which, Cleveland lost.


yea. you just have to mention that same stuff for 08. lebron started off the series with a few horrid games and then actually played really well in the last three games of that series against the celtics and that great game 7.

also have to mention lebron's great defense that seems to never be mentioned on here. lebron absolutely destroyed pierce last year in that series on defense. just completely shut him down. that is why i don't think his overall play was as bad as people make it out to be.

factor in the help he gets from his team as well and his play becomes even better in my opinion.

[LBJ 23]

yea. you just have to mention that same stuff for 08. lebron started off the series with a few horrid games and then actually played really well in the last three games of that series against the celtics and that great game 7.

also have to mention lebron's great defense that seems to never be mentioned on here. lebron absolutely destroyed pierce last year in that series on defense. just completely shut him down. that is why i don't think his overall play was as bad as people make it out to be.

factor in the help he gets from his team as well and his play becomes even better in my opinion.


True. When Rondo and KG had ball in their hands last year I was scared. Or when Ray shot those open 3s I was scared. But I cant say the same for Pierce....

[Papaya Petee]

I usually defend Lebron, but I have to point out that e actually shot 36% vs Boston in '08 and averaged 5.3 turnovers per game.

And last year, the final numbers aren't really an accurate representation of his performance in the Boston series, because him having 3 poor games in a row to end the series makets it hard for me to look at the final numbers and judge his performance that way.

In those last 3 games.he averaged 21.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg and 8.3 apg, but he shot 34% from the field, 15.4% on 3s(2/13) and he averaged 6.3 turnovers.

Really, the problem with the Boston series is that he had 2 great games(1 and 3), both of which Cleveland won and then 4 other games that ranged from mediocre to horrible, all of which, Cleveland lost.

You're absolutely right, 36% not 46%, that is my fault.

This just showed however that Cleveland outside of LeBron was dominated by Boston in the playoffs as well. I mean Garnett had a feast on Jamison.

[knightfall88]

but hey atleast Lebron knows that when he plays like crap, he can rack up useless assists and rebounds so when stupid fans look back at his numbers they can say that he did well.

Wade and Bryant have always been better playoff performers. You don't need numbers to tell you that.

[pegasus]

yea. you just have to mention that same stuff for 08. lebron started off the series with a few horrid games and then actually played really well in the last three games of that series against the celtics and that great game 7.

also have to mention lebron's great defense that seems to never be mentioned on here. lebron absolutely destroyed pierce last year in that series on defense. just completely shut him down. that is why i don't think his overall play was as bad as people make it out to be.

factor in the help he gets from his team as well and his play becomes even better in my opinion.

I know, right? More you think about it and more you factor things in, it really seems as if our eyes were lying to us when we watched those six games, witnessing Lebron quitting & stat padding at the same time.

[ginobli2311]

but hey atleast Lebron knows that when he plays like crap, he can rack up useless assists and rebounds so when stupid fans look back at his numbers they can say that he did well.

Wade and Bryant have always been better playoff performers. You don't need numbers to tell you that.

were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.

[pegasus]

were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.

Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.

i disagree. lebron just played poorly in some of the games. he did not quit. if he had quit....he wouldn't have continued to play great defense in every game.

he clearly was struggling offensively, but he didn't jack up terrible shots and continued to shut down pierce. and he had 19 boards in game 6.

sorry. he just played poorly a couple of games offensively. it happens. people like you and other people on here keep trying to revise history and make it out to be the worst series ever. it wasn't.....

[canefandynasty]

Kobe banged Kate. End of story.

[strifed169]

Kobe did not quit. Instead, kept trying, which included shooting as many shots as he did, but he didn't quit. AND he grabbed all of those rebounds, and ultimately, they won.

Lebron QUIT. HUGE difference.

it was the lakers that won game 7 not kobe who was desperately trying to be the hero jacking up all those shots you don't need to look far for performances like this check out recent lakers vs knicks lakers win in a blow out even when kobe shot 10/28 :roll:

[sh0wtime]

Well you asked about how Lebron did individually and not how his team did. Afterall, this is a team game, especially in the playoffs. No matter what Lebron could have done, even average close to a 40 point triple double against Orlando Magic, he never had the required talent level of teammates, coach, franchise to dominate in the playoffs, to win a championship. Individuals win some games & awards, but teams win championships, even Michael Jordan proved that having video-game like productions in the playoffs as his team still was destroyed in the playoffs over and over and over and over until he was 28 years old and got the required help. But anyways:


2007 Spurs in the Finals

22.0 ppg
7.0 rpg
6.8 apg
1.0 spg
0.5 bpg

Which is not that bad considering he was a 21 year old that took a team of scrubs all by himself to the Finals with that historic performance against the Pistons, they were not supposed to be there and Lebron learned the lesson 1st time, you cant win it alone against the best teams in a 7 game series, especially not against that championship team.


2008 Celtics

26.7 ppg
6.4 rpg
7.6 apg
2.1 spg
1.3 bpg

Which is very good, but somewhat worse by his standards as he is more of a 30-7-7 guy, especially as a one man army against what was back then the best team in the NBA that won the championship. Lesson was again learned that he cant win it alone with scrub teammates against the best team in the NBA, but hey, he has to play anyways right?



2010 Celtics

26.8 ppg
9.3 rpg
7.2 apg
2.2 spg
1.3 bpg

Which was very good aswell, but not the best by his standards. Once again in this series Lebron was preached the same lesson he was preached by superious teams in the playoffs for his entire career, that you cant win it alone, no matter how good you play, if you dont have the required amount of help to beat everybody. Take a look at what kindof "help" he really had in the standings today and now you can also imagine where that 2006 Finals team would have been without him, which were even worse than the Cavs of today.

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

[knightfall88]

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

Get some facts in your head:

They were only ever was a contender for 2 years.

The cavs have boosted their roster every year.

Lebron never voiced his displeasure, as a result, management thought he was happy enough, why wouldn't he be, they were getting stronger every year. This year they even added Byron Scott and were going to make some roster changes.

Lebron took advantage of free agency, never mentioned his intention to leave and left the Cavs with nothing. The problem wasn't so much he left but because he deceived them. What Kobe did was the right thing, told the organisation he wasn't happy and that he would leave if it didn't get better. Kobe didn't leave NOT because of Gasol. Kobe and the Lakers were dominant in first half of 2008 before the Gasol trade and Kobe said he would stay anyways.

Melo is doing the same thing right now. Wade did the same thing but he ended getting Bosh. I wonder how many others voiced their displeasure with the organisation but didn't get the press for it. Maybe Pierce did as well.

The only real loser here is Lebron. Maybe if he grew some balls and worked with the organisation he wouldve gotten what he wanted. They were headed towards the right direction and were getting better. Heck, Boston and LA are close to finishing their dynasties. He would have won a Championship with Cleveland soon enough and that would have been epic. But now he is 2nd fiddle to Wade and no matter where he goes, he has to drag Wade and his +1 more championships with him. He needed Wade and Bosh to get together before he was confident to join them. That is like joining Kobe and Gasol after they got together. If you are the man, you make your team do what you want.

Don't you think that its strange that despite Lebrons numbers, almost everyone says that Kobe is easily the best player in the NBA when the playoffs start. SVG, Mark Jackson, Barkley, Magic, Jerry West, MJ. Heck even I was suprised when Magic, West and MJ said that Kobe is the best player this season since he has been playing like shit.



were kobe's rebounds in game 7 useless? please answer.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well you asked about how Lebron did individually and not how his team did. Afterall, this is a team game, especially in the playoffs. No matter what Lebron could have done, even average close to a 40 point triple double against Orlando Magic, he never had the required talent level of teammates, coach, franchise to dominate in the playoffs, to win a championship. Individuals win some games & awards, but teams win championships, even Michael Jordan proved that having video-game like productions in the playoffs as his team still was destroyed in the playoffs over and over and over and over until he was 28 years old and got the required help. But anyways:



22.0 ppg
7.0 rpg
6.8 apg
1.0 spg
0.5 bpg

Which is not that bad considering he was a 21 year old that took a team of scrubs all by himself to the Finals with that historic performance against the Pistons, they were not supposed to be there and Lebron learned the lesson 1st time, you cant win it alone against the best teams in a 7 game series, especially not against that championship team.



26.7 ppg
6.4 rpg
7.6 apg
2.1 spg
1.3 bpg

Which is very good, but somewhat worse by his standards as he is more of a 30-7-7 guy, especially as a one man army against what was back then the best team in the NBA that won the championship. Lesson was again learned that he cant win it alone with scrub teammates against the best team in the NBA, but hey, he has to play anyways right?




26.8 ppg
9.3 rpg
7.2 apg
2.2 spg
1.3 bpg

Which was very good aswell, but not the best by his standards. Once again in this series Lebron was preached the same lesson he was preached by superious teams in the playoffs for his entire career, that you cant win it alone, no matter how good you play, if you dont have the required amount of help to beat everybody. Take a look at what kindof "help" he really had in the standings today and now you can also imagine where that 2006 Finals team would have been without him, which were even worse than the Cavs of today.

Lebron had enough of this lesson every single year, he never did complain about his teammates, franchise, GM, threatening to leave or anything unlike someone else very famous today that plays for the Lakers. His franchise failed to bring required help needed for the goals he wanted, fired his headcoach, so either he was gona stay there and just be happy having great stats and be ringless for the rest of his career or take advantage of him becoming freeagent and go somewhere where the franchise really wants championships and does all the required moves to make that happen, it was a very easy choice.

Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.
I'm sorry for asking, but, what is the record of that great rebounding, defensive team this year without Lebron.
And please, don't bring up they have lost Big Z or Shaq with Lebron. :lol

[sh0wtime]

Why don't you include FG% and turnovers? Well, we all know why you didn't.

And nobody carries scrubs to the finals or gets to the finals by themselves, I hate when people say stupid shit like this. Lebron was on a top 4 defensive team, so right there, that's proof he had help, you do realize that there's more to the game than offense? And that's included when talking about casts. Cleveland was also an excellent rebounding team and he did have teammates step up when it mattered during that run, and Cleveland was often holding teams to such low scores that Lebron didn't need much help offensively to get to the finals.

The same reason i didnt include, mpg, PER/EFF, fouls per game, fg made, fg missed, TS%, topg, eFG%, ORB%, AST%, DRB%, WS, WS48, points per 48, rebounds per 48 and so on and so on.

Didnt want to overcompensate, if you want to take a look at every stat about there is to man, start here or something: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

And about you trying to speak in favor of his teammates, yes he had help, i never said he didnt have help, but i said he didnt have the required help to do what you, me and others expected him to do, win a championship.

What you should hate more is how people act like this is a 1 on 1 game or a 1 on 5 game, nobody in NBA history could have won a championship with the help Lebron had, nobody. We call Michael Jordan the greatest to have ever played basketball for example, but people forget that its a statement based on career, not on talent/skill, Oscar Robertson & Wilt Chamberlain for example were much more talanted/skilled and everything than Michael Jordan, yet they failed in the championship department, why? Because that is the biggest team accomplishment there is, if you dont have the required help you can even average 100 points if you so wish and still not win a championship, its a fact which many people avoid.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm sorry for asking, but, what is the record of that great rebounding, defensive team this year without Lebron.
And please, don't bring up they have lost Big Z or Shaq with Lebron. :lol

I didn't say Lebron had some great cast, but he didn't get them to the finals by himself, nobody does. While Mike Brown was a poor offensive coach, he was a big reason for their defensive success. The Cavs relied heavily on Lebron offensively, because they didn't have another guy who could be a go to guy consistently, then consider that Cavs players have missed a decent amount of games.

The way that Cleveland team was built, of course they're not going to be very good without Lebron, but they also lost a good amount of size with the departures of Shaq and Z which gives them yet another weakness.

But the team complemented Lebron well, they weren't a team you should expect him to win a title with, but not a team full of scrubs either and Lebron didn't do everything by himself. The team was great defensively due to them having a defensive-minded coach and players who played hard at that end, that's not there anymore either.


The same reason i didnt include, mpg, PER/EFF, fouls per game, fg made, fg missed, TS%, topg, eFG%, ORB%, AST%, DRB%, WS, WS48, points per 48, rebounds per 48 and so on and so on.

Didnt want to overcompensate, if you want to take a look at every stat about there is to man, start here or something: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

And about you trying to speak in favor of his teammates, yes he had help, i never said he didnt have help, but i said he didnt have the required help to do what you, me and others expected him to do, win a championship.

What you should hate more is how people act like this is a 1 on 1 game or a 1 on 5 game, nobody in NBA history could have won a championship with the help Lebron had, nobody. We call Michael Jordan the greatest to have ever played basketball for example, but people forget that its a statement based on career, not on talent/skill, Oscar Robertson & Wilt Chamberlain for example were much more talanted/skilled and everything than Michael Jordan, yet they failed in the championship department, why? Because that is the biggest team accomplishment there is, if you dont have the required help you can even average 100 points if you so wish and still not win a championship, its a fact which many people avoid.

I never said I expected Lebron to win a title with that cast, I peronally thought he did everything he possibly could in the 2009 playoffs and played unbelievable that year, in fact, I've broken down why Cleveland lost to Orlando many times and I don't blame Lebron for that series.

But, you're also being disingenuous. Not showing at least some measure of scoring efficiency when his scoring/shooting efficiency by any measure was horrendous is deceptive. Also, he turned the ball over at such a prolific rate. Excluding that while excluding FG%, eFG% or TS%, whichever you prefer is misleading.

And no, excluding those is not the same as excluding garbage stats like win shares, PER or stats that become useless when a player is playing big minutes such as per 48 stats.

[Yung D-Will]

I didn't say Lebron had some great cast, but he didn't get them to the finals by himself, nobody does. While Mike Brown was a poor offensive coach, he was a big reason for their defensive success. The Cavs relied heavily on Lebron offensively, because they didn't have another guy who could be a go to guy consistently, then consider that Cavs players have missed a decent amount of games.

The way that Cleveland team was built, of course they're not going to be very good without Lebron, but they also lost a good amount of size with the departures of Shaq and Z which gives them yet another weakness.

But the team complemented Lebron well, they weren't a team you should expect him to win a title with, but not a team full of scrubs either and Lebron didn't do everything by himself. The team was great defensively due to them having a defensive-minded coach and players who played hard at that end, that's not there anymore either.



I never said I expected Lebron to win a title with that cast, I peronally thought he did everything he possibly could in the 2009 playoffs and played unbelievable that year, in fact, I've broken down why Cleveland lost to Orlando many times and I don't blame Lebron for that series.

But, you're also being disingenuous. Not showing at least some measure of scoring efficiency when his scoring/shooting efficiency by any measure was horrendous is deceptive. Also, he turned the ball over at such a prolific rate. Excluding that while excluding FG%, eFG% or TS%, whichever you prefer is misleading.

And no, excluding those is not the same as excluding garbage stats like win shares, PER or stats that become useless when a player is playing big minutes such as per 48 stats.


HURLBURT FIELD -- Amid the fallout in Cleveland after last season's playoff ouster, there was speculation that Mike Brown's firing as coach was linked to a strained relationship with LeBron James.
Now that both have moved on from the Cavaliers, James took time after practice Tuesday with the Heat to credit his former coach for preparing him to make a smooth transition from one defensive team to another.
After leading his unit to a dominant performance in the Heat's first practice of training camp, James said there are similarities in the approach and commitment to defense.
The Cavaliers and Heat ranked among the league leaders last season in several defensive categories, including fewest points allowed and defensive field-goal percentage.
``I've come from Cleveland under Mike Brown, who was an unbelievable defensive coach,'' James said. ``I'm going to try to implement some of the things I learned from him, and bring it here.''
During his process of getting to know James, coach Erik Spoelstra reached out to Brown. Spoelstra and Brown have been friends since they played for rival West Coast Conference college teams.
The Heat traditionally spends the first several days of training camp working exclusively on defense.
The team didn't run any offensive drills Tuesday. That was fine with James, who said it was only natural.
``Defensively, that's where I've always made my mark,'' James said. ``And that's where I'll continue to make my mark. I'm used to that.''


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/29/1847604/lebron-james-credits-mike-brown.html#ixzz1AgB9mBam
:applause:

[d.bball.guy]

I would, too. To clean my house. Plus, he would be less inclined to steal.
:roll::roll::roll::roll: