If 08-10 LBJ played in 96-98 would he...

[mongePR(kb24)]

be considered the best in the league like right now?

[branslowski]

Another time warp thread....Awesome.:applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Nope, cause Jordan was still playing.

[97 bulls]

Nope, cause Jordan was still playing.
This

[Kellogs4toniee]

be considered the best in the league like right now?


It was pretty much a given at that time that Jordan was the best player in the league regardless of anything. It might be unfair, but it's true. Even if he had a month stretch of 20 PPG on low 40% shooting, people would still want Jordan first on there team in the playoffs. Nothing would change that, not even the Lebron of now.

[Papaya Petee]

08-10 LeBron > 96-98 Jordan

89-92 Jordan > 08-10 LeBron

that is all.

[Samurai Swoosh]

08-10 LeBron > 96-98 Jordan
Based off what exactly?

[Walduś]

he wouldn't be better than shaq.

[knickscity]

08-10 LeBron > 96-98 Jordan


You out of your mind. Jordan was putting up LeBron averages during this span when he was 32, 33, 34.

LeBron will never, ever be compared to Jordan.

Now he can go for a Pippen type career now that he is a sidekick.

The better question is...would LeBron win an MVP in any year that Jordan played if they played during the same time?

[tpols]

I would take peak lebron over aging jordan.. I cant believe some of you are acting like it's not a comparison.

[ImmortalD24]

Imagine Kobe being much better than he is right now, with a lot more highlights and accolades, was liked 100times more with more commercials and was respected around the league from top to bottom.


Just imagine that for a minute.. and even without that, Kobe was argued as the best player in the league during that span.


MJ and it isn't even close.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Imagine Kobe being much better than he is right now, with a lot more highlights and accolades, was liked 100times more with more commercials and was respected around the league from top to bottom.


Just imagine that for a minute.. and even without that, Kobe was argued as the best player in the league during that span.


MJ and it isn't even close.
Thank you, bro ...

This in a nut shell.

Kobe's arguably the best player in the league right now in comparison to LeBron, etc.

And '96 - '98 Jordan was rich man's version of today's Kobe. In virtually every way possible.

[knickscity]

I would take peak lebron over aging jordan.. I cant believe some of you are acting like it's not a comparison.
I wouldn't take LeBron in any year Jordan was on the Bulls.

You should be ashamed. Jordan mentally destroyed his opponents, and skill even at 32 was better than anything LeBron has done.

[Poochymama]

I would take peak lebron over aging jordan.. I cant believe some of you are acting like it's not a comparison.

This:applause: :applause: :applause:

IMO 96-98 Jordan was a slightly better player than current Kobe, whereas Lebron right now is clearly a better player than current Kobe.

Lebron has a ever so slight edge here.

That being said, prime Jordan is better than prime Lebron, but where not talking prime Jordan here.

[lilgodfather1]

I guess it would depend on the team we were putting LeBron on. Theoretically based on pace LeBron's numbers would rise a bit making his numbers more than comparable to Jordan's. I still think Jordan would be considered the best no matter if he actually was or not.

[catch24]

Give me EmJay. Heart of a lion; skill of an assassin.

[KenneBell]

IMO 96-98 Jordan was a slightly better player than current Kobe, whereas Lebron right now is clearly a better player than current Kobe..
Production and efficiency wise, '11 Kobe is about the same as '98 Jordan.

Lebron pretty much blows them out of the water in those categories.

Jordan would have over LeBron what Kobe has over him, playoff experience, leadership, skill, and clutch play, only to a greater extent.

I'd definitely pick MJ if I was going to have a one season championship run.

[HB40TheNextStar]

And if JR Smith played in the 60's, he would be Big O.

I don't get it. What game are we playing?

[sekachu]

I would take peak lebron over aging jordan.. I cant believe some of you are acting like it's not a comparison.



It is not a comparison if you based on their athleticism, I think MJ has a great postup game that make he better than lebron

[Micku]

I don't think he'll be consider the best in 96. But other years, probably. I dunno. I wonder how he would play though. Shaq was killing it when he was healthy. So if ISH forum would've existed, then Shaq would be the star in the raising, more so than LeBron.

[knickscity]

Production and efficiency wise, '11 Kobe is about the same as '98 Jordan.

Lebron pretty much blows them out of the water in those categories.

Jordan would have over LeBron what Kobe has over him, playoff experience, leadership, skill, and clutch play, only to a greater extent.
You mention efficiency yet Jordan for his career, shot 50%.

How is LeBron more efficient?

The bold cements why Jordan was better than Lebron has been ever so far.

[KenneBell]

You mention efficiency yet Jordan for his career, shot 50%.

How is LeBron more efficient?

The bold cements why Jordan was better than Lebron has been ever so far.
I was talking about '98 Jordan. '09-'11 LeBron has been pretty damn efficient.

I think he might get a boost if he played with that shortened 3 line MJ had in 96-97.

[knickscity]

I'd definitely pick MJ if I was going to have a one season championship run.
This is classic.:lol

[KenneBell]

This is classic.:lol
Why?

I wouldn't pick a 32-34 year old Jordan if I needed a franchise player for 5 more years. Just saying.

[knickscity]

I was talking about '98 Jordan. '09-'11 LeBron has been pretty damn efficient.

I think he might get a boost if he played with that shortened 3 line MJ had in 96-97.
I see what you did.

Jordan isn't even known for 3pt shooting. If anything that brought his efficiency down, not up.

You talking about 98 yet mentioned three years to support your argument.

LeBron is not, will not, cannot dethrone Jordan in anything substantial.

[knickscity]

Why?

I wouldn't pick a 32-34 year old Jordan if I needed a franchise player for 5 more years. Just saying.
I wouldn't pick Duncan over Kevin Love right now either.

But if you gonna compare the players don't pick their oldest years to compare someone's prime.

Use prime vs. prime.

[RedBlackAttack]

James still has yet to prove that he can turn his style of play into a championship. He is a dominant player, but 'dominating' does not necessarily mean championships. Call '96-'98 Jordan 'aging' or whatever, but he was the unquestioned leader and best player on a team that won three straight titles.

Frankly, LBJ doesn't deserve to be in this conversation at the moment, especially with the way he exited the playoffs last season.

[che guevara]

Depends. You could go either way with '96 MJ, '97 maaaaybe, but '09-'10 Lebron was definitely better than '98 MJ. This isn't prime MJ we're talking about, he was not the same player he was before baseball. Lebron gives you better production in every category on significantly better efficiency. In the '09 playoffs, Lebron was playing at a level much higher than MJ ever played at post-baseball. People acting like it's not even close should remember that this isn't prime Jordan we're talking about.

It should also be mentioned that Lebron would benefit hugely from the pulled in 3 point line from '96-'97.

[Harion]

Lebron would be Malone if he played in that era. always getting close but never getting past Jordan.

[che guevara]

Lebron would be Malone if he played in that era. always getting close but never getting past Jordan.
Malone was eliminated 17 times by teams without Jordan on them. Let's not act like Jordan was the only reason he couldn't win a ring. His production and efficiency consistently dropped in the playoffs (sometimes significantly), something that doesn't happen with Lebron.

[knightfall88]

lol at anyone comparing Lebron to Jordan. He is not even better than Pippen at being a sidekick. Pippen could set a monster pick and pop out and bank a shot in when he felt like it. That is 2 moves too many for Lebron already. That and I think Pippen could play defense.

[RedBlackAttack]

Depends. You could go either way with '96 MJ, '97 maaaaybe, but '09-'10 Lebron was definitely better than '98 MJ. This isn't prime MJ we're talking about, he was not the same player he was before baseball. Lebron gives you better production in every category on significantly better efficiency. In the '09 playoffs, Lebron was playing at a level much higher than MJ ever played at post-baseball. People acting like it's not even close should remember that this isn't prime Jordan we're talking about.

It should also be mentioned that Lebron would benefit hugely from the pulled in 3 point line from '96-'97.
Jordan averaged over 32 points per game in the playoffs in 1998... And that was over the course of 21 games, not some small sample. And, all of Jordan's numbers came within the flow of the game. He understood exactly when to take over and how to do it.

He also played great defense over the course of those 21 games. He wasn't that far out of his prime and it could be argued that what he lost in athleticism, he made up for in experience and an understanding of the game.

Believe what you will, but when Jordan turned it on, he was almost as unstoppable in '98 as he was in '92 (and this is coming from someone whose team was repeatedly r@ped by MJ).

James has yet to harness his talents and learn how to win on the biggest stages. So, yeah... Give me the guy that has proven it when everything is on the line.

I don't even see a legitimate debate here, to be honest. Jordan was still GREAT in 1998... Great.

[IGOTGAME]

Just to put MJs athletism in perspective...98 MJ is way more athletic then Kobe of the last two years

[knickscity]

Depends. You could go either way with '96 MJ, '97 maaaaybe, but '09-'10 Lebron was definitely better than '98 MJ. This isn't prime MJ we're talking about, he was not the same player he was before baseball. Lebron gives you better production in every category on significantly better efficiency. In the '09 playoffs, Lebron was playing at a level much higher than MJ ever played at post-baseball. People acting like it's not even close should remember that this isn't prime Jordan we're talking about.

It should also be mentioned that Lebron would benefit hugely from the pulled in 3 point line from '96-'97.
yet the "non prime Jordan won three rings" playing overall at a level better than LeBron.

Lebron should not be discussed in any year of Jordan's career up to his last MVP in '98.

Great players are defined by success.

No way you can compare a 5 time MVP, to Lebron.

"OLD" Jordan won two MVP's even then at 32 and 34.

He gave up every shot to attempt to be a Jordan the day he walked away from Cleveland.

[RedBlackAttack]

Malone was eliminated 17 times by teams without Jordan on them. Let's not act like Jordan was the only reason he couldn't win a ring. His production and efficiency consistently dropped in the playoffs (sometimes significantly), something that doesn't happen with Lebron.
Actually, you are wrong. Let's look at the 'big four' statistics that people usually seek out when evaluating player performance (points, assists, rebounds, shooting%)...

LeBron James statistics:

2005-06 regular season - 31.4 ppg, 7.0 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 48% shooting
2005-06 playoffs - 30.8 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 47.6% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2006 playoffs.

2006-07 regular season - 27.3 ppg, 6.7 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 47.6% shoting
2006-07 playoffs - 25.1 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 8.0 assists, 41.6% shooting

*Down in points and shooting in the 2007 playoffs.

2007-08 regular season - 30.0 ppg, 7.9 rebounds, 7.1 assists, 48.4% shooting
2007-08 playoffs - 28.2 ppg, 7.8 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 41.1% shooting

*Down in points, rebounds and shooting in the 2008 playoffs.

2008-09 regular season - 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 48.9% shooting
2008-09 playoffs - 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 51% shooting

*Up in every category during playoffs.

2009-10 regular season - 29.7 ppg, 7.3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 50.3% shooting
2009-10 playoffs - 29.1 ppg, 9.3 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 50.2% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2010 playoffs.


So, only in the historically great 2009 playoffs did James actually increase his numbers in the 'big four' categories during the playoffs. In his four other playoff performances, the majority of these numbers have dropped in the postseason.

That includes a dramatic drop in shooting percentage and efficiency in the postseason. These don't include numbers on things like turnovers per game and I can tell you without even looking that his turnover numbers usually skyrocket in the postseason.

[lebob23]

I legitemately believe that durant can overthrow jordan that or be a rich mans joe smith/garnett. But there is no way lebron is better than jordan, lebron is just using his god given talents while jordan worked extremely hard to get the ability to be that clutch and efficient.....

kobe is just kobe as in jordan withought the team part of his game. although he does know when to take over he isnt as efficient or part of the flow of the game although his talent might be as good

[knickscity]

Actually, you are wrong. Let's look at the 'big four' statistics that people usually seek out when evaluating player performance (points, assists, rebounds, shooting%)...

LeBron James statistics:

2005-06 regular season - 31.4 ppg, 7.0 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 48% shooting
2005-06 playoffs - 30.8 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 47.6% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2006 playoffs.

2006-07 regular season - 27.3 ppg, 6.7 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 47.6% shoting
2006-07 playoffs - 25.1 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 8.0 assists, 41.6% shooting

*Down in points and shooting in the 2007 playoffs.

2007-08 regular season - 30.0 ppg, 7.9 rebounds, 7.1 assists, 48.4% shooting
2007-08 playoffs - 28.2 ppg, 7.8 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 41.1% shooting

*Down in points, rebounds and shooting in the 2008 playoffs.

2008-09 regular season - 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 48.9% shooting
2008-09 playoffs - 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 51% shooting

*Up in every category during playoffs.

2009-10 regular season - 29.7 ppg, 7.3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 50.3% shooting
2009-10 playoffs - 29.1 ppg, 9.3 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 50.2% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2010 playoffs.


So, only in the historically great 2009 playoffs did James actually increase his numbers in the 'big four' categories during the playoffs. In his four other playoff performances, the majority of these numbers have dropped in the postseason.

That includes a dramatic drop in shooting percentage and efficiency in the postseason. These don't include numbers on things like turnovers per game and I can tell you without even looking that his turnover numbers usually skyrocket in the postseason.

Now I know u are a Cavs fan, but you didn't have to do him like that.:bowdown:

I'm shocked that anyone can compare LeBron to Jordan.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Second best behind Jordan in '96 and '97. Possibly the best in '98.

[KenneBell]

Second best behind Jordan in '96 and '97. Possibly the best in '98.
That's what I was trying to say. Knickscity isn't going to like that.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No. He has to be better than Pippen first before he can get to Jordan...

[knickscity]

That's what I was trying to say. Knickscity isn't going to like that.
It's not I don't like it, it just has no basis.

LeBron can't touch Jordan on anything, and I seriously doubt when LeBron turns 32 his game will be anything close to Jordan's at 32.

[RedBlackAttack]

He is not better than Jordan was in '98. He just isn't... I don't know where this is coming from. I wouldn't entertain James to Jordan arguments when LeBron was a Cavalier and I'm certainly not going to do it now.

I have to wonder how many people commenting on this actually saw Jordan play (and were old enough to really comprehend and understand the game).

I also agree with KnicksCity that James forever forfeited any comparisons to the best player of all-time when he chose to play with the second best player in the league over the summer. It is really too bad, because James does have the talent to rival Jordan if he really ever figured it all out and put it together when it really counts, but even if he does that now, questions will forever follow him...

Could he do it without the second best player in the league on his team? Could he actually do it against Wade with comparable supporting casts? Is he able to be the unquestioned leader of a championship team?

He left all of these questions (and more) unanswered in Cleveland and, with his choice of teammates, they will be virtually impossible to answer going forward.

A great player? Unquestionably. How great? We may never be able to answer that fully.

[Lebron23]

LeBron averaged 39-9-9 againts the Orlando Magic in the Conference Finals. What was Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao stats in the Conference Finals? A One men team would never win an NBA title. Basketball is a team sports.

PS

The Heat would destroy the Knicks next week. I hope Melo plays in that game.

[RedBlackAttack]

LeBron averaged 39-9-9 againts the Orlando Magic in the Conference Finals. What was Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao stats in the Conference Finals? A One men team would never win an NBA title. Basketball is a team sports.

PS

The Heat would destroy the Knicks next week. I hope Melo plays in that game.
The fact of the matter is, when you have to point to a Conference Finals performance to make a comparison to Michael Jordan, the comparison should have never been made in the first place. It was an all-time great performance in 2009 by James against the Magic, but one series does not make Michael Jordan.... Well, Michael Jordan (not to mention the Cavs lost).

[Walduś]

LeBron averaged 39-9-9 againts the Orlando Magic in the Conference Finals. What was Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao stats in the Conference Finals? A One men team would never win an NBA title. Basketball is a team sports.

PS

The Heat would destroy the Knicks next week. I hope Melo plays in that game.
why you :cry: ?

[Lebron23]

The fact of the matter is, when you have to point to a Conference Finals performance to make a comparison to Michael Jordan, the comparison should have never been made in the first place.


The Orlando Magic were the No.1 defensive team in the NBA. Post Kobe's stats in the NBA Finals. If LeBron have Pau Gasol, Odom and Jackson on his team they could have won the series.

Michael Jordan would never win an NBA title with Mo Williams.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

The Orlando Magic were the No.1 defensive team in the NBA. Post Kobe's stats in the NBA Finals. If LeBron have Pau Gasol, Odom and Jackson on his team they could have won the series.

Michael Jordan would never win an NBA title with Mo Williams.

The 2009 Finals?

[RedBlackAttack]

The Orlando Magic were the No.1 defensive team in the NBA. Post Kobe's stats in the NBA Finals. If LeBron have Pau Gasol, Odom and Jackson on his team they could have won the series.

Michael Jordan would never win an NBA title with Mo Williams.
A. When did Kobe become a part of the conversation? He has nothing to do with this. Kobe Bryant shouldn't ever be compared to MJ, either.

B. The Conference Finals are forgotten in the long-run... And the Cavs lost the series. Regardless of how impressive his numbers may have been (and they were great), he was ultimately unsuccessful.

C. Jordan won championships with John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and an aging Ron Harper as his starting point guards. Suddenly, Mo Williams doesn't look so awful, does he?

[Lebron23]

The 2009 Finals?

Do you think he's better than Prime Scottie Pippen?

[Walduś]

Do you think he's better than Prime Scottie Pippen?
no

[Lebron23]

I hope LeBron wins multiple championship rings and Finals MVP with the Heat. I love to see them play the Pricks in the playoffs.

Carmela Anthony is a B1tch. Nuggets would still make the playoffs without this one dimensional scorer.

[Tainted Sword]

I wouldnt consider 08-10 bron to be better than Shaq, let alone mj.

[KenneBell]

I hope LeBron wins multiple championship rings and Finals MVP with the Heat. I love to see them play the Pricks in the playoffs.

Carmela Anthony is a B1tch. Nuggets still would make the playoffs without this one dimensional scorer.
What does any of that have to do with this thread? You sound like a mad 12 year old. :roll:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Do you think he's better than Prime Scottie Pippen?

I thought you were talking about Kobe when I asked you that.

But are you asking me do I think LeBron is better than prime Pippen or Kobe?

[Lebron23]

I wouldnt consider 08-10 bron to be better than Shaq, let alone mj.

Nobody in the NBA today is better than Jordan and Shaq. Shaq and Jordan are 2 of the most dominant playoffs, and finals performer in History.

[che guevara]

Jordan averaged over 32 points per game in the playoffs in 1998... And that was over the course of 21 games, not some small sample. And, all of Jordan's numbers came within the flow of the game. He understood exactly when to take over and how to do it.
And Lebron averaged 35 on vastly superior efficiency (.618 TS% vs. .545). And that's ignoring Lebron's huge advantage as a rebounder and passer. Lebron was playing plenty in the flow of the offense in the '09 and '10 playoffs too - he was doing it in the flow of the game for the most part in the first two rounds in '09 and for game 1 of the Orlando series, but he had no choice for the rest of the series because his supporting cast was playing poorly. Had Mo Williams not stunk up the joint so badly in the playoffs that year, or if his cast in general wasn't so underwhelming, we wouldn't be having this conversation and nobody would consider '98 MJ better than '09 Lebron. Better from '88-'93? Sure. But not '98.


He also played great defense over the course of those 21 games. He wasn't that far out of his prime and it could be argued that we he lost in athleticism, he made up for in experience and an understanding of the game.
Too subjective, but I'll say this - He didn't have nearly the same efficiency that he used to, he didn't have the energy to sustain his play the whole game (had quite a few poor 4th quarters in the playoffs that year due to fatigue), he didn't have the same incredible energy and impact on D (though he was still an elite defender, no doubt), and he wasn't nearly as much of a creator as before.


Believe what you will, but when Jordan turned it on, he was almost as unstoppable in '98 as he was in '92 (and this is coming from someone whose team was repeatedly r@ped by MJ).
Unstoppable is the wrong word. You could argue that he was more unstoppable after baseball than before; the defense was less likely to affect his shot - they're not really getting to his fadeaway. It might go in or it might not, but the defense doesn't have all that much to do with it. But he was noticeably less effective and efficient, and certainly not almost as effective as he was in '92. If you think he was, you should probably watch a few games to compare - I'm not going off of memory here (I don't remember him well before baseball), I recently watched most of his '92 playoff run (actually watching the Finals right now).


James has yet to harness his talents and learn how to win on the biggest stages. So, yeah... Give me the guy that had proven it when everything is on the line.
As I already said, if Mo Williams didn't suck so bad in the '09 playoffs or if his cast wasn't underwhelming in general, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He was playing at an all time level in the postseason that year.


I don't even see a legitimate debate here, to be honest. Jordan was still GREAT in 1998... Great.
Of course he was. No debate there. But being great is quite different than being at the level of prime MJ. Kobe is still great, but comparing him to prime MJ is a joke.


Actually, you are wrong. Let's look at the 'big four' statistics that people usually seek out when evaluating player performance (points, assists, rebounds, shooting%)...
You usually expect a player's numbers to drop in the playoffs; the defense is a lot tougher and more prepared to stop you. If you maintain your regular season numbers, you're doing a good job.

LeBron James statistics:


2005-06 regular season - 31.4 ppg, 7.0 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 48% shooting
2005-06 playoffs - 30.8 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 47.6% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2006 playoffs.
Minor decline in numbers, but against much tougher D in his first playoff experience. Hardly a decline in his play.


2006-07 regular season - 27.3 ppg, 6.7 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 47.6% shoting
2006-07 playoffs - 25.1 ppg, 8.1 rebounds, 8.0 assists, 41.6% shooting

*Down in points and shooting in the 2007 playoffs.
And he was up quite a bit in rebounds and assists, and shot like shit because he was playing against way tougher D due to being in the playoffs. Slight decline in play maybe but hardly a Malone like drop.


2007-08 regular season - 30.0 ppg, 7.9 rebounds, 7.1 assists, 48.4% shooting
2007-08 playoffs - 28.2 ppg, 7.8 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 41.1% shooting

*Down in points, rebounds and shooting in the 2008 playoffs.
Didn't play well in the playoffs this year. Went against a historically great Boston defense.


2008-09 regular season - 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 48.9% shooting
2008-09 playoffs - 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 51% shooting

*Up in every category during playoffs.
One of the most ridiculous playoff runs ever. He really deserved the title this year; the last player to play at this level was Shaq in '00 and '01.


2009-10 regular season - 29.7 ppg, 7.3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 50.3% shooting
2009-10 playoffs - 29.1 ppg, 9.3 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 50.2% shooting

*Down in points, assists and shooting in the 2010 playoffs.
:oldlol: A .1% decline? I thought people were done using FG% as the best measure of efficiency anyway - his TS% went from .604 to .607 (this was because he shot threes so well). If your points only go down a minuscule amount like that in the playoffs, it's hardly a noteworthy decline, and yeah, of course assists are going down, he played PG for like 13 games because of injuries during the regular season. He also added 2 rebounds a game and upped his shot blocking to 2 per game.



So, only in the historically great 2009 playoffs did James actually increase his numbers in the 'big four' categories during the playoffs. In his four other playoff performances, the majority of these numbers have dropped in the postseason.
And Jordan in most postseasons had at least one statistical category decline and had his efficiency go down. That's okay, because teams play so much better on D and are so much more prepared for you in the playoffs, and often made up for it with increased production elsewhere. Overall, Lebron averages 8.4 rebounds in the playoffs (more than he ever averaged in a single regular season), 7.3 assists (only averaged more than that in one regular season) and 29.3 points (a minuscule decline) on slightly worse efficiency. You're cherry picking his numbers here by pointing out the ones that go down (and even point out the categories with laughably tiny decline) without noting the categories that go up - he always improves his rebounding and often gets more assists. Hardly consistently declining production.


That includes a dramatic drop in shooting percentage and efficiency in the postseason. These don't include numbers on things like turnovers per game and I can tell you without even looking that his turnover numbers usually skyrocket in the postseason.
Using TS% (a much better measure of efficiency than straight FG%), he had a slight decline in '06, a fairly substantial decline in '07 and '08 (while playing the historically great Spurs and Celtics defense, and another great defensive team in the Pistons), a decent bump in '09 and no change in '10.


He is not better than Jordan was in '98. He just isn't... I don't know where this is coming from. I wouldn't entertain James to Jordan arguments was LeBron was a Cavalier and I'm certainly not going to do it now.

I have to wonder how many people commenting on this actually saw Jordan play (and were old enough to really comprehend and understand the game).
I'm old enough to remember watching Jordan post baseball and I still watch tons of his old games (not at all difficult to find them, they're all over the internet).

[Walduś]

I hope LeBron wins multiple championship rings and Finals MVP with the Heat. I love to see them play the Pricks in the playoffs.

Carmela Anthony is a B1tch. Nuggets still would make the playoffs without this one dimensional scorer.
lebron will choke, and wade will carry him. :applause:

[Lebron23]

What does any of that have to do with this thread? You sound like a mad 12 year old. :roll:

He's overrated.

[Lebron23]

I thought you were talking about Kobe when I asked you that.

But are you asking me do I think LeBron is better than prime Pippen or Kobe?

I was comparing Mo Williams to Scottie "Top 3 MVP Candidate in the 1994 NBA Season" Pippen.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I was comparing Mo Williams to Scottie "Top 3 MVP Candidate in the 1994 NBA Season" Pippen.

Ha is that even a serious question? Of course Scottie is better. I know where you are going with this though

[Lebron23]

Chicago Bulls won 55 games without Jordan
Cleveland Cavaliers are lucky to win 17 games at the end of the season.

[Nash-tastic]

I hope LeBron wins multiple championship rings and Finals MVP with the Heat. I love to see them play the Pricks in the playoffs.

Carmela Anthony is a B1tch. Nuggets would still make the playoffs without this one dimensional scorer.
:oldlol: Right...

[KenneBell]

LeBron23 is acting like a little b*tch right now. :oldlol:

[che guevara]

C. Jordan won championships with John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and an aging Ron Harper as his starting point guards. Suddenly, Mo Williams doesn't look so awful, does he?
Well, at least they aren't defensive liabilities and don't take too many terrible shots out of the offense. He was less important to them than Varejao or Big Z; he proved it the next season when he went out and they didn't miss a beat.

[Lebron23]

LeBron James, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr and Phil Jackson = Championship contender.

1996-98 Bulls without Jordan would destroy 2008-2010 Cavaliers without LeBron.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's not I don't like it, it just has no basis.

LeBron can't touch Jordan on anything, and I seriously doubt when LeBron turns 32 his game will be anything close to Jordan's at 32.

Uhh, it certainly has basis when a guy is putting up 28-29+ PER while not being nearly as ball dominant as another player (Lebron in this case) and while playing within an equal opportunity offensive system alongside another great player who himself is a 20+ ppg scorer and high volume playmaker/passer (Pippen); plus, MJ's defensive impact was greater by quite a bit, and in terms of 4th quarter or big game play, let's not even go there. Intangibles are also all Jordan.

So like I said, he'd be second best in '96 and '97 (if you think he's better than Shaq, who imo was #2 in '97) and possibly the best in '98.


Lebron was playing plenty in the flow of the offense in the '09 and '10 playoffs too - he was doing it in the flow of the game for the most part in the first two rounds in '09 and for game 1 of the Orlando series, but he had no choice for the rest of the series because his supporting cast was playing poorly

This is nonsense. ANyone with eyes can watch each of them and see the difference in how MJ played in '96-'98 and how LBJ played in the '09/'10 seasons and postseasons. '96-'98 Jordan didn't have the ball in his hands even HALF as much as Lebron did during the '09 playoffs, even during the pre-Magic series. Then, during the Magic series (Lebron's best playoff series ever), it isn't even close - I have never seen a player be more ball dominant than Lebron in that series. Dude had the ball on 90% of possessions for at least 10-13 seconds of clock time if not more. Please...it's not even close.

You give Jordan the ball multiple times on every possession and allow him to play around with it for 10-15 seconds and then see what kind of numbers he'd put up.

[1987_Lakers]

\

1996-98 Bulls without Jordan would destroy 2008-2010 Cavaliers without LeBron.

I agree with you on this.

[knickscity]

Chicago Bulls won 55 games without Jordan
Cleveland Cavaliers are lucky to win 17 games at the end of the season.
Has nothing to do with the discussion.

[Lebron23]

I agree with you on this.

:cheers:

1996-1998 Michael Jordan had a better supporting casts, and a much better coach than 2008-2010 LeBron James.

His greatness shot under 42% from the field in the 1996 NBA Finals, but the Bulls still beat the Sonics.

Shawn Kemp was the best player in that series,.

[knickscity]

LeBron James, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr and Phil Jackson = Championship contender.

If that's all they would be is the Orlando Magic, then why you debating with everyone?

You replace Jordan with LeBron and the best you get is a contender with Lebron?

Do you think LeBron will be as great as Jordan was at age 32?

Once again putting a 26 year old prime LeBron on that squad is not a fair comparison.

[Lebron23]

If that's all they would be is the Orlando Magic, then why you debating with everyone?

You replace Jordan with LeBron and the best you get is a contender with Lebron?

Do you think LeBron will be as great as Jordan was at age 32?

Once again putting a 26 year old prime LeBron on that squad is not a fair comparison.


I changed my mind. 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls with LeBron would win the NBA Championship in the Mid- late 1990's. The 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls were an elite offensive and defensive team.

LeBron and Pippen would be a huge matchup problem for any teams in the NBA. LBJ would be a beast while playing in the triangle offense.

[RedBlackAttack]

And Lebron averaged 35 on vastly superior efficiency (.618 TS% vs. .545). And that's ignoring Lebron's huge advantage as a rebounder and passer. Lebron was playing plenty in the flow of the offense in the '09 and '10 playoffs too - he was doing it in the flow of the game for the most part in the first two rounds in '09 and for game 1 of the Orlando series, but he had no choice for the rest of the series because his supporting cast was playing poorly. Had Mo Williams not stunk up the joint so badly in the playoffs that year, or if his cast in general wasn't so underwhelming, we wouldn't be having this conversation and nobody would consider '98 MJ better than '09 Lebron. Better from '88-'93? Sure. But not '98.

First of all, LeBron James and 'in the flow of the offense' should never go in the same sentence... Sure, against teams that had no shot against the Cavs (Pistons and Hawks), he can play more in the flow. But, when things tighten up and he is going against a comparable team, he gravitates toward ball-dominance unlike anyone the league has ever seen.

Second, I think we can all agree that James had a historically great postseason run in 2009. That really isn't up for debate. But, I also don't think we can use those three playoff series as an indicator of his overall body of work in the postseason.

The fact of the matter is, if anything, that was an anomaly when you compare his playoff and regular season numbers in the other years. I wouldn't necessarily say it is a fluke, but I also wouldn't say that a great run of 14 games or whatever it was should define LeBron James' game in the last few years.

As great as the Magic series was for James, the 2010 series against the Celtics could be used as a reference point to Jordan. Regardless of numbers, is ANYONE going to argue that the guy playing in that series should be compared to Jordan in '98? And what has he done since then to prove that he is worthy of such a comparison?

I don't think it is fair to Michael Jordan to say, "these 14 games that James played in 2009 against the Pistons, Hawks and Magic prove that LeBron is better than a Michael Jordan that led his team to a title."

James played very well in those playoffs, but I also think his numbers are a bit reflective of his string of opponents that year.


You usually expect a player's numbers to drop in the playoffs; the defense is a lot tougher and more prepared to stop you. If you maintain your regular season numbers, you're doing a good job.

...and the fact of the matter is, more times than not, he hasn't maintained his regular season numbers. And, I would probably want a guy that I'm comparing to Michael Jordan (in any year) to not have a 5+% drop-off in FG%, which James has done twice in five playoff appearances.

There are the fractional differences and then there are the notable differences. Jordan never dipped below 45% from the field in any playoff run on any of the championship teams that he led and it didn't matter who they were going against. There have been times in the recent past where I have wondered if anything was ever going to drop for James in crucial playoff series.

We can sit here and blame the other Cavaliers all night long for every misstep that James ever made in the playoffs, but I don't think that is a fair assessment. James' game largely depends on him in isolation situations either attacking the hoop for a basket himself or to set-up others (or the rare pull-up jumper). His game STILL largely depends on that style even with the Heat.

It is how he plays. The question is, does that style work against great defenses when things tighten up in the playoffs. He hasn't shown me that he can make that transition. James' numbers aren't really the issue, at the end of the day.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I changed my mind. 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls with LeBron would win the NBA Championship in the Mid- late 1990's. The 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls were an elite offensive and defensive team.

LeBron and Pippen would be a huge matchup problem for any teams in the NBA. LBJ would be a beast while playing in the triangle offense.

Idk man LeBron is good but one thing he is very bad at is Off-Ball Movement which he would need to do a LOT of in the triangle. Phil utilized this even more with Jordan in his later years when he wasn't as athletic as before. Coming off of screens, setting screens, etc. Those skills are all necessary for a 2 guard in the triangle (I'm assuming LeBron will play 2). When LeBron doesn't have the ball he just stands there or walks around. He does this a lot now since he has a guy like Wade on his team. They would have to have an offense where LeBron was the main distributor rather than distributor/scorer

[Samurai Swoosh]

Jordan averaged over 32 points per game in the playoffs in 1998... And that was over the course of 21 games, not some small sample. And, all of Jordan's numbers came within the flow of the game. He understood exactly when to take over and how to do it.

He also played great defense over the course of those 21 games. He wasn't that far out of his prime and it could be argued that what he lost in athleticism, he made up for in experience and an understanding of the game.

Believe what you will, but when Jordan turned it on, he was almost as unstoppable in '98 as he was in '92 (and this is coming from someone whose team was repeatedly r@ped by MJ).

James has yet to harness his talents and learn how to win on the biggest stages. So, yeah... Give me the guy that has proven it when everything is on the line.

I don't even see a legitimate debate here, to be honest. Jordan was still GREAT in 1998... Great.
Exactly.

Let's not even mention how a 35 year old MJ, CARRIED the Bulls the first half of the season as back to back champs, taking on all comers with his 2nd best player being? Dennis Rodman? Toni Kukoc? C'mon ...

This isn't EVEN debatable, for the exact reasons stated here. LeBron hasn't proved he can dominate on a championship team and be his team's absolute best player. He might not even get that chance now that he plays with Wade, who basically mirrors him from a statistical perspective, yet has some of the intangibles Jordan has that LeBron clearly lacks.

[RedBlackAttack]

Idk man LeBron is good but one thing he is very bad at is Off-Ball Movement which he would need to do a LOT of in the triangle. Phil utilized this even more with Jordan in his later years when he wasn't as athletic as before. Coming off of screens, setting screens, etc. Those skills are all necessary for a 2 guard in the triangle (I'm assuming LeBron will play 2). When LeBron doesn't have the ball he just stands there or walks around. He does this a lot now since he has a guy like Wade on his team. They would have to have an offense where LeBron was the main distributor rather than distributor/scorer
James might succeed in the triangle offense, but it wouldn't be as a Michael Jordan. He would almost certainly have to take on the role of Scottie Pippen.

[MJ23forever]

doubt it. 08-10 lebron is incredibly athletic, great player but seriously lacks all the intangible assets, leadership qualities, clutchness and mental aspect of the game jordan had along with lebron having no post up game and no jumper.

[knickscity]

:cheers:

1996-1998 Michael Jordan had a better supporting casts, and a much better coach than 2008-2010 LeBron James.

His greatness shot under 42% from the field in the 1996 NBA Finals, but the Bulls still beat the Sonics.

Shawn Kemp was the best player in that series,.
:facepalm
Wasn't this one the first series that had people thinking the NBA was officially rigged?

Chicago with a 3-0 series lead, Seattle can't score over 90ppg.

But they were scoring well over 100+ in the regular season?

Chicago collectively defended the shit out of Seattle.

Allegedly the League needed to "stretch" this series.

They already had a sweep the year before.

GP was the force on that team not Kemp.

Payton got the credit for "slowing" down Jordan.

Kemp only had one monster game, and that was in game five.

Rodman beasted all over Kemp. Twice tying the offensive rebound record.

I see you jumping and reaching huh?

[Samurai Swoosh]

James might succeed in the triangle offense, but it wouldn't be as a Michael Jordan. He would almost certainly have to take on the role of Scottie Pippen.
That's the thing people aren't comprehending.

You let Jordan go out there against teams and ball dominate at the expense of the team offense like James ..

And you'd see more impressive individual numbers than even what James managed to put forth in 2009. I mean, for you stat geeks ... it'd be scary. You all would cream your collective pants.

Even for a '96 - '98 Jordan he could get to the rim off the dribble at will.

You would see depending on the opponent anywhere from 35 ppg - 42 ppg and probably 8 apg - 12 apg if he were allowed to ball dominate and create the way James did.

With that said, is James going to be able to not stifle a team offense, play effecient ball and dominate a game scoring 30 ppg and winning the way Jordan did for the Bulls in '96 - '98 within the flow of the game? No. He doesn't have the scoring ability, the post game, feel for the game knowing exactly when to take over etc.

Jordan could catch and shoot. Jordan could do it all offensively, without killing the flow of an offensive system.

He's a more versatile and more explosive weapon.

[RedBlackAttack]

:facepalm
Wasn't this one the first series that had people thinking the NBA was officially rigged?

Chicago with a 3-0 series lead, Seattle can't score over 90ppg.

But they were scoring well over 100+ in the regular season?

Chicago collectively defended the shit out of Seattle.

Allegedly the League needed to "stretch" this series.

They already had a sweep the year before.

GP was the force on that team not Kemp.

Payton got the credit for "slowing" down Jordan.

Kemp only had one monster game, and that was in game five.

Rodman beasted all over Kemp. Twice tying the offensive rebound record.

I see you jumping and reaching huh?
That series was essentially over when Jordan dropped 36 on them in Game 3 to give the Bulls a 3-0 lead. MJ had a couple of difficult shooting nights in the three remaining games it took to close it out, but that hardly defined his series... And there was no question who the best player on the floor was.

[Micku]

I changed my mind. 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls with LeBron would win the NBA Championship in the Mid- late 1990's. The 1996-1998 Chicago Bulls were an elite offensive and defensive team.

LeBron and Pippen would be a huge matchup problem for any teams in the NBA. LBJ would be a beast while playing in the triangle offense.

Doubt it. At least it would take him a bit to get used to. For the majority that I seen LBJ, it's mainly about him dominating the ball. He does it with the Cavs and the Heat (surprisingly). He is the point-forward, always. Even Magic Johnson didn't dominate the ball like LeBron.

The triangle isn't about dominating the ball. It's about touches for everybody. I'm not sure if LBJ could play off the ball as well as the others. He never shown the ability of that. The triangle offense is always been about movement and sharing with everybody, plus a post player. Phil Jackson would want him to post more or something. But I don't know how things would work out since the triangle don't require a pg that dominates the ball.

If LBJ would play in the mid 90s. Assuming if he has the same stats, I think he will be consider on the raise or better than MJ after 96. But who knows.

I know if ISH would exist back then though, ppl would say Shaq will be the best player when healthy. LBJ playing in that era or not, Shaq was on the raise and was a beast.

[Samurai Swoosh]

That series was essentially over when Jordan dropped 36 on them in Game 3 to give the Bulls a 3-0 lead.
Yes ... and then the Bulls collectively lost interest after basically sealing the deal on the series going up 3 games to none. Lost focus, got bored, whatever ... momentarily let Seattle back in the series, but it had already been decided two games prior. Then they closed it out in Chicago.

[knickscity]

That series was essentially over when Jordan dropped 36 on them in Game 3 to give the Bulls a 3-0 lead. MJ had a couple of difficult shooting nights in the three remaining games it took to close it out, but that hardly defined his series... And there was no question who the best player on the floor was.
You know where I was going with it.

The Bulls was destroying the Sonics, and the League had to halt them brakes.

No way they were having two consecutive sweeps in the Finals.

Now I totally agree with the other guy about if Jordan was allowed to have the ball as much as LeBron did in Cleveland.

His assists would have doubled for sure, his scoring at least another 10ppg.

But unlike LeBron, Jordan wanted to win.

Jordan didn't have to "check his stats".

[RedBlackAttack]

Yes ... and then the Bulls collectively lost interest after basically sealing the deal on the series going up 3 games to none. Lost focus, got bored, whatever ... momentarily let Seattle back in the series, but it had already been decided two games prior. Then they closed it out in Chicago.
Pretty much. Of all of the Bulls' championship runs, that one held the least amount of suspense/interest (at least for me), so it is kind of funny that people are attempting to use it against Jordan. That Sonics team was very talented on both ends of the floor and the Bulls basically laid waste to them.


You know where I was going with it.

The Bulls was destroying the Sonics, and the League had to halt them brakes.

No way they were having two consecutive sweeps in the Finals.

Now I totally agree with the other guy about if Jordan was allowed to have the ball as much as LeBron did in Cleveland.

His assists would have doubled for sure, his scoring at least another 10ppg.

But unlike LeBron, Jordan wanted to win.

Jordan didn't have to "check his stats".

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that a Cavs fan and a Knicks fan are forced to have to defend Michael f#cking Jordan? Did you ever think that you would be in that position when he was breaking your heart in the mid-90s? :oldlol:

I guess that just goes to show how great he was. As much as I wanted to deny it and hate the guy, there was no arguing with what was obvious.

...and LeBron James ain't there.

[97 bulls]

I think we need to get something straight about the 94-98 bulls.

First, what the bulls did without jordan in 94 is not an indictment on jordan. That season showed why they were a championship team 3 straight years.

Back to the question at hand. Lebron is just an amazing athlete with skills that were perfect for the rule changes the league made to help him out.

He's in no way shape or form better than 96-98 jordan. I think we agree with 96 and 97 but the question is 98. Based on his finals performance. But let's not forget, jordan played that season with torn ligaments in his shooting hand. And only had scottie pippen for half the season. Yet jordan still led the bulls with the best record in basketball while pippen was out. Don't forget 98 was the bulls third championship run. Could it be that maybe he was physically tired?

What jordan did in 98 was amazing. Especially when you factor in the variables. Him being injured, not having pippen, and playing all those games. I wonder how james would do without wade for 40 games, an injury to his shooting hand, and after playing over 200 games. We will never know cuz he doesn't play through injuries.

The only jordan james was better than was 02-03 jordan

[97 bulls]

Pretty much. Of all of the Bulls' championship runs, that one held the least amount of suspense/interest (at least for me), so it is kind of funny that people are attempting to use it against Jordan. That Sonics team was very talented on both ends of the floor and the Bulls basically laid waste to them.



Am I the only one that finds it interesting that a Cavs fan and a Knicks fan are forced to have to defend Michael f#cking Jordan? Did you ever think that you would be in that position when he was breaking your heart in the mid-90s? :oldlol:

I guess that just goes to show how great he was. As much as I wanted to deny it and hate the guy, there was no arguing with what was obvious.

...and LeBron James ain't there.
What even crazier is that I thought che guevera was or is a bulls fan. He's avidly defending lebron.

[Collie]

No, probably not. Being the best player is also a lot about perception, and the way LBJ carries himself is so far from how the public percieved MJ that it would negate any comparison. MJ was not a saint, in fact you could say he was a jerk, but he also respected the game and said all the right things in public. His arrogance was a competitive one, born out of a obsessive desire to succeed. Fans respect that.

Furtheremore, James was not a better player than 95-96 and 96-97 MJ. He had gaudier stats, but that was due to being a one man force in Cleveland. His Miami stats should be a better comparison of what it would look like with another good player. 97-98, I could see it, but then MJ stepped his game up again in the playoffs, and any argument that would have developed over the regular season would be quashed, and people would be murmuring agin how the James still could not take the throne away from an old MJ. Couple this with my first paragraph and I don't see how we can consider LBJ the best then through consensus.

They were close as players, could even argue James was a little better, but the intangibles were what separates them, and what makes 96-98 MJ the best still.

[Soundwave]

LeBron's more athletic ... but really in many other key areas ...

- Lower bball I.Q. than Jordan
- Not as good of a jump shot
- Non-existent post game compared to MJ
- Lower leadership skills
- Less competitive drive

Jordan wins. That's not to dump on LeBron, because MJ trumps many players today in many categories like ths.

And sure MJ as he was older wasn't dunking as much any more, but really what difference does it make when a fade away jumper is 2 points just like a dunk is.

Two points is two points.

He was still scoring 29-32 ppg without much fuss and in that era, the rules did not favor wing players nearly as much.

Bulls down 98-97, 5 seconds on the clock ... no one would take modern day LeBron over Jordan in that scenario.

[Samurai Swoosh]

1998 Michael Jordan

Just so some of you can get an idea, who didn't get to see it first hand ...

In MSG v.s. the Knicks team that would go on to the NBA Finals the very next year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSjCFrLy_I4&feature=related

[rodman91]

Oh i hate when people come up with stats... I watched both them enough..and 96-98 was much better than Lebron.Post moves,midrange game,offensive knowledge,not forcing anything.. Lebron only has better athletic skills than jordan at 96-98 season and probably better shooting range.Plus jordan was still great defender that time (even not like his prime).Lebron has some higlight blocks but not a good perimeter defender.Jordan was still clutch both on offense and defense when everything goes wrong. (6th game of finals..stealing and the shot.) Even with stats, jordan had a great year. 28.7 ppg per game.When there was still defense in NBA, he had better ppg than 2011's scorers.

96-98 Jordan > 08-10 Lebron.. (im not even Lebron hater,dude is fantastic but jordan was.... jordan.)

[KenneBell]

When there was still defense in NBA, he had better ppg than 2011's scorers.

:rolleyes:

Not to knock MJ, but he also took more shots than anyone playing today.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade would do similarly well in today's game with ~22-23FGA IMO.

[knickscity]

:rolleyes:

Not to knock MJ, but he also took more shots than anyone playing today.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade would do similarly well in today's game with ~22-23FGA IMO.
:confusedshrug:
Yet they have the ball in their hands the majority of the time and still haven't done it?

[97 bulls]

Oh i hate when people come up with stats... I watched both them enough..and 96-98 was much better than Lebron.Post moves,midrange game,offensive knowledge,not forcing anything.. Lebron only has better athletic skills than jordan at 96-98 season and probably better shooting range.Plus jordan was still great defender that time (even not like his prime).Lebron has some higlight blocks but not a good perimeter defender.Jordan was still clutch both on offense and defense when everything goes wrong. (6th game of finals..stealing and the shot.) Even with stats, jordan had a great year. 28.7 ppg per game.When there was still defense in NBA, he had better ppg than 2011's scorers.

96-98 Jordan > 08-10 Lebron.. (im not even Lebron hater,dude is fantastic but jordan was.... jordan.)
Brilliant post.

[KenneBell]

:confusedshrug:
Yet they have the ball in their hands the majority of the time and still haven't done it?
All 3 of them averaged a good bit more assists than '96-98 Jordan from '08 to '10.

Over the past 3 years only one of them has hit 22FGA. And he ended up averaging 30ppg.

With a shortened 3 line, LeBron and Kobe especially would see some benefits from playing in that '96-97 timeframe IMO. The FT's might drop for LeBron though.

[97 bulls]

All 3 of them averaged a good bit more assists than '96-98 Jordan from '08 to '10.

Over the past 3 years only one of them has hit 22FGA. And he ended up averaging 30ppg.

With a shortened 3 line, LeBron and Kobe especially would see some benefits from playing in that '96-97 timeframe IMO. The FT's might drop for LeBron though.
Oh stop with the shortened 3pt line nonsense. If it helped so much, why did they move it back?

And like someone said earlier, jordan didn't dominate the ball like james. They played in 2 totally different offenses.

[knickscity]

All 3 of them averaged a good bit more assists than '96-98 Jordan from '08 to '10.

Over the past 3 years only one of them has hit 22FGA. And he ended up averaging 30ppg.

With a shortened 3 line, LeBron and Kobe especially would see some benefits from playing in that '96-97 timeframe IMO. The FT's might drop for LeBron though.
Even with a shorter 3pt line JORDAN WASN'T KNOWN FOR SHOOTING THREES.

Jordan at 32 killed him opponents with his unstoppable fadeaway. The "three" was not in his arsenal.

In fifteen seasons Jordan took less than 2000 threes in the regular season...... far less.

I would bet LeBron has smashed that already in half the time.

You really need to just accept that LeBron would have lost in the Jordan era, just like now.

[Poochymama]

:rolleyes:

Not to knock MJ, but he also took more shots than anyone playing today.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade would do similarly well in today's game with ~22-23FGA IMO.

Their efficiency would also drop since efficiency typically goes down with increased volume of shots. Also, Jordan would average more pts/ast if he held the ball in his hands as often as Lebron/Wade/Kobe. Furthermore, Jordan would get to the line several more times a game with the way fouls are called now days and he would also be a little more efficient due to the lack of hand checking. Basically, it's hard to compare stats and determine who the best player is since they are all so close.

That being said, if I were to rank 96-98 Jordan against current Lebron/Kobe/Wade I would say

96 Jordan > 97 Jordan = Current Lebron > 98 Jordan > Current Wade > Current Kobe

but, the difference between all these guys is really quite small

[T-bomb 25]

I don't think he'll be consider the best in 96. But other years, probably. I dunno. I wonder how he would play though. Shaq was killing it when he was healthy. So if ISH forum would've existed, then Shaq would be the star in the raising, more so than LeBron.And Penny was killing it...Jordan,Shaq,Penny,Hakeem,D-Rob........so no for Lebron...this was the handchecking era to so it was very physical......you needed a great paticular skill on offense that was hard to stop,which Lebron doesent have, not a very good shooter,no postgame,cant particularly blow past people......so no his stats might be better than a lot of these guys but thats a small part of the game.....but thats all he had were stats im not sure if he would have these kind of stats if he played back then....

[KenneBell]

Their efficiency would also drop since efficiency typically goes down with increased volume of shots. Also, Jordan would average more pts/ast if he held the ball in his hands as often as Lebron/Wade/Kobe.
Kobe is going to shooting 45-47% whether he gets 18 shots or 27. It's one of the great mysteries of basketball. :oldlol:

The other two you have a point. The only player you can really compare to MJ is Kobe but they really don't play the same roles even though they play the same position in the same offense.



but, the difference between all these guys is really quite small
Can't disagree with you there.

[rodman91]

:rolleyes:

Not to knock MJ, but he also took more shots than anyone playing today.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade would do similarly well in today's game with ~22-23FGA IMO.

The real question ,how they would do it..Especially in 96-98 area, Jordan was taking a lot of shots but mostly in baseline and using his post skills (with his deadly fadeway). If Lebron or Wade would have such skills it wouldnt hurt their teams offense.Whenever they took a lot of shots its not in gameplay and they are forcing shots in traffic or with really long rage shots.. Noone of them has better offensive IQ (for example reaction to double teams) or post game than Jordan so thats why if they are taking more shots than usual its not good for their teamplay. Kobe has some post skills and fadeaway but no where near to jordan's.Also he doesnt use it as frequently as jordan back in late 90's.

[T-bomb 25]

The real question ,how they would do it..Especially in 96-98 area, Jordan was taking a lot of shots but mostly in baseline and using his post skills (with his deadly fadeway). If Lebron or Wade would have such skills it wouldnt hurt their teams offense.Whenever they took a lot of shots its not in gameplay and they are forcing shots in traffic or with really long rage shots.. Noone of them has better offensive IQ (for example reaction to double teams) or post game than Jordan so thats why if they are taking more shots than usual its not good for their teamplay. Kobe has some post skills and fadeaway but no where near to jordan's.Also he doesnt use it as frequently as jordan back in late 90's.Kobe's postgame wasnt better than alot of guys back then on the perimeter back then....Mitch Richmond,Nick Anderson,Penny but to be fair these guys are ATG perimter post players....and several others were very good in the post.Now there is only a few guys on the perimeter that can post...Melo has the best postgame,Kobe,D-Will,B-Davis,C-Billups,Danny Granger...thats all that i see that can post up period.

[KenneBell]

Even with a shorter 3pt line JORDAN WASN'T KNOWN FOR SHOOTING THREES.

In 96 and 97 he was shooting about 3-4 a game. Maybe a tick less than Kobe or LeBron.


The real question ,how they would do it..Especially in 96-98 area, Jordan was taking a lot of shots but mostly in baseline and using his post skills (with his deadly fadeway). If Lebron or Wade would have such skills it wouldnt hurt their teams offense.Whenever they took a lot of shots its not in gameplay and they are forcing shots in traffic or with really long rage shots.. Noone of them has better offensive IQ (for example reaction to double teams) or post game than Jordan so thats why if they are taking more shots than usual its not good for their teamplay. Kobe has some post skills and fadeaway but no where near to jordan's.Also he doesnt use it as frequently as jordan back in late 90's.
Kobe doesn't play in the post because the Lakers don't need him to. At the beginning of last season when Gasol was out, he was dominating in the post. He was shooting almost 50% at around 30ppg.

If they really needed him to put up 20+ shots from inside the arc, I'm sure he could do it pretty well at a better clip than he normally shoots(less 3's). But that leaves nothing for Bynum and Gasol.

[rodman91]

In 96 and 97 he was shooting about 3-4 a game. Maybe a tick less than Kobe or LeBron.


Kobe doesn't play in the post because the Lakers don't need him to. At the beginning of last season when Gasol was out, he was dominating in the post. He was shooting almost 50% at around 30ppg.

If they really needed him to put up 20+ shots from inside the arc, I'm sure he could do it pretty well at a better clip than he normally shoots(less 3's). But that leaves nothing for Bynum and Gasol.

I said Kobe has some post skills and can score inside the arc.And now they have two big guys but it doesnt mean they dont need his post skills.He can use it more when his shots doesnt go in.However Jordan's post game was something else.Especially with his fadeaway, it was an unguardable scoring option. (like skyhook back then) So its not fair to say to say he scored a lot because shot more.He shot more because his post game was the most reliable scoring option in NBA. I dont see any sg/sf today has such reliable scoring option.

[KenneBell]

I said Kobe has some post skills and can score inside the arc.And now they have two big guys but it doesnt mean they dont need his post skills.He can use it more when his shots doesnt go in.However Jordan's post game was something else.Especially with his fadeaway, it was an unguardable scoring option. (like skyhook back then) So its not fair to say to say he scored a lot because shot more.He shot more because his post game was the most reliable scoring option in NBA. I dont see any sg/sf today has such reliable scoring option.
Like I said, let Kobe operate down there with 20+ shots given to him and he'd have no problem being efficient with them. His midrange is damn near automatic over the past 3 years. Check his shooting stats from 15 feet in for the past 2 years. He takes more and makes the 10-15 foot jumper better than anyone in the NBA.

While his post game isn't Jordan's, it's more than enough to lean on in today's NBA.

[Jacks3]

LBJ is better in pretty much every phase of the game. Jordan fans are delusional. We're talking LBJ at his absolute peak while 96-98 Jordan was a shadow of his former self. 91-93 Jordan vs 08-10 LeBron is a much better comparison. It's crazy how underrated LeBron has become. :oldlol:

[RedBlackAttack]

LBJ is better in pretty much every phase of the game. Jordan fans are delusional. We're talking LBJ at his absolute peak while 96-98 Jordan was a shadow of his former self. 91-93 Jordan vs 08-10 LeBron is a much better comparison. It's crazy how underrated LeBron has become. :oldlol:
You are out of your gourde. Were you even aware of what was going on in 1998? Jordan's performance in the 1998 playoffs was better than any of the five postseason appearance by James, save for one (2009)... And that ultimately ended in failure for LeBron, while Jordan led his team to a title.

There is nothing that would lead me to believe that James is better than '98 Jordan. Do you remember James' last significant moment in this league? It came against the Celtics in last year's playoffs. Is there anything about the way he played that series that should lead to even a conversation involving any version of Michael Jordan?

[andgar923]

LBJ is better in pretty much every phase of the game. Jordan fans are delusional. We're talking LBJ at his absolute peak while 96-98 Jordan was a shadow of his former self. 91-93 Jordan vs 08-10 LeBron is a much better comparison. It's crazy how underrated LeBron has become. :oldlol:
Naw dude.... sorry.

At risk of being labeled a Jordan 'homer' MJ is a better player than Bron is right now.... period.

The stats don't tell the full story here.

Bron doesn't have anywhere near MJ's post game.
Doesn't have anywhere near MJ's movement without the ball.
He doesn't come close to his mid range game.
He doesn't have MJ's overall bball IQ.

And then there's the small intangibles and old school tricks (craftiness) that Bron doesn't have yet.

Bron in that era wouldn't be as dominant as he is today, because the rules and style of play wouldn't allow him to. He can't bulldoze his way to the rim at will like he does today. He won't draw as many fouls as he does today either. And we see glimpses of this from time to time whenever the lane is clogged, if he doesn't bulldoze his way to the rim his game becomes paralyzed to a degree. If his shot isn't going in, he still forces the issue instead of finding other ways to score, such as moving without the ball, posting up or coming off screens.

There's a ton of refinement left on both Wade and Bron's game on both ends. Athleticism would only take them so far in that era, since the league wasn't modified to facilitate perimeter players like it is today.

Now.... is what I mentioned everything? NO obviously not, there's still things that Bron can do, but what I mentioned is significant enough to warrant us saying MJ at that stage of his career>>>>> any Bron (and Wade) version so far.

[catch24]

^Not only that, but MJ's teams won; LeBron's did NOT

Fantastic post. Repped.

[Jacks3]

There is nothing that would lead me to believe that James is better than '98 Jordan.
LOL

09-10 LBJ is a better scorer, much more efficient, a better defender and a much better passer/play-maker. He's the superior re-bounder as well. 98 Jordan literally does nothing better. He may have been more "skilled" but LBJ simply had more impact on the game. Put LeBron on those Bulls teams and they certainly win it all. Put 98 Jordan on the Cavs and there's no way in hell they're winning 66 games. This is a joke. :facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

LOL

09-10 LBJ is a better scorer, much more efficient, a better defender and a much better passer/play-maker. He's the superior re-bounder as well. 98 Jordan literally does nothing better. He may have been more "skilled" but LBJ simply had more impact on the game. Put LeBron on those Bulls teams and they certainly win it all. Put 98 Jordan on the Cavs and there's no way in hell they're winning 66 games. This is a joke. :facepalm
Are you out of your mind? What role is James going to play on that '98 Bulls team? It sure as hell can't be Jordan's spot in the triangle. So... Put Pippen on the bench and put him in his spot?

James on that team would make no sense. The fact of the matter is, James has yet to prove that he can make his ball-dominant style of play fit into a team structure and translate it into championships.

And, the idea that '98 Jordan "did nothing better" is asinine. It isn't even worth responding to. Stop talking/typing.

[Jacks3]

James on that team would make no sense. The fact of the matter is, James has yet to prove that he can make his ball-dominant style of play fit into a team structure and translate it into championships.

And, the idea that '98 Jordan "did nothing better" is asinine. It isn't even worth responding to. Stop talking/typing.
He hasn't won championships because his teams have sucked. It's amazing that he was able to get 60+ wins out of that garbage Cavs roster. You ain't wining shit with Mo Williams as your second best player. Pretty obvious. Look at them this year without him. 8-32. :roll:

Yeah, Jordan was a better shooter but as LeBron was still considerably more efficient it really means very little.

Give Jordan 4 average players and LeBron 4 average players and LeBron's team is winning more games every time. He just has more impact on the game than 96-98 Jordan.

Fact.

[RedBlackAttack]

He hasn't won championships because his teams have sucked. It's amazing that he was able to get 60+ wins out of that garbage Cavs roster. You ain't wining shit with Mo Williams as your second best player. Pretty obvious. Look at them this year without him. 8-32. :roll:

A. Why are you talking about the regular season? When people want to compare a guy to Michael Jordan, it is generally a good idea to point out something other than regular season numbers, whether they be wins or statistics.

B. The Cavs are starting Alonzo Gee, Manny Harris and Ryan Hollins. They are also playing under a different head coach. The team is totally different, aside from James. That argument is null and void.

C. Scottie Pippen only played half of the regular season in 1997-98 and Jordan literally carried the team to 62 wins without him. Then, he led the team to a championship averaging 32 points per game for the entire playoffs. So, yeah....

D. James needed to show that he could play within an offense and still be the unquestioned leader of a championship team, because when things tighten up in the playoffs and he is going against a really good defensive team, his ball-dominant nature has not resulted in wins. Unfortunately, the question marks as to whether or not he could do it as the unquestioned leader of a team forever went out the window when he decided to join the second best player in the league for the rest of his prime.

This conversation forever ended the day he signed with the Heat, as far as I'm concerned. There were too many unanswered questions in the playoffs for James to be compared to any of the championship-level versions of MJ.

Now, give me some regular season statistics. :sleeping

[Micku]

He hasn't won championships because his teams have sucked. It's amazing that he was able to get 60+ wins out of that garbage Cavs roster. You ain't wining shit with Mo Williams as your second best player. Pretty obvious. Look at them this year without him. 8-32. :roll:

Yeah, Jordan was a better shooter but as LeBron was still considerably more efficient it really means very little.

Give Jordan 4 average players and LeBron 4 average players and LeBron's team is winning more games every time. He just has more impact on the game than 96-98 Jordan.

Fact.

Eh. Different system that the Mike Brown's Cavs and Phil Jackson Bulls went on. LeBron had to move more off the ball with Phil Jackson's system. Not saying he wouldn't be able to do it, but he hasn't shown it yet. In Mike Brown system, LeBron was the sole source of their O. He was their main point guard basically, along with everything else. He was their system.

The fact that he isn't as good now with working with the Heat is evidence that changing system takes time to adjust, and the triangle is one of the most complex and difficult systems to get. Since Phil won't let him dominate the ball, then he would operate differently. It's probably for the best if he could learn how to operate without the ball, but I don't know what would happen. LeBron may not be able to work within the triangle. Or he could strive from it once he learns, who knows.

98 Jordan already operated in Phil Jackson system, and had a great post game along with a great all around game. LeBron James had more legs and could do more things potentially, but we would look at a different LeBron if he work within the triangle possibly. But I think he'll have a better stats than an injured 34/35 year old Jordan.

---

But assuming that LeBron James would play in 98 in a team besides the Bulls, I think it would be interesting. I'm not sure if they'll call him the best or not, because MJ was still insanely popular and Shaq was on the way up.

[NauruDude]

You out of your mind. Jordan was putting up LeBron averages during this span when he was 32, 33, 34.

LeBron will never, ever be compared to Jordan.

Now he can go for a Pippen type career now that he is a sidekick.

The better question is...would LeBron win an MVP in any year that Jordan played if they played during the same time?

Pippen a SIDEKICK???

[kingkong]

LeBron is a physical freak of nature, but no way is he mentally strong enough to win like Jordan, and I"m not even talking about the 72 wins season

[Walduś]

Pippen a SIDEKICK???
only to jordan stans.

[97 bulls]

He hasn't won championships because his teams have sucked. It's amazing that he was able to get 60+ wins out of that garbage Cavs roster. You ain't wining shit with Mo Williams as your second best player. Pretty obvious. Look at them this year without him. 8-32. :roll:

Yeah, Jordan was a better shooter but as LeBron was still considerably more efficient it really means very little.

Give Jordan 4 average players and LeBron 4 average players and LeBron's team is winning more games every time. He just has more impact on the game than 96-98 Jordan.

Fact.
In 98, the bulls were 24-11 without scottie pippen and rodman playing through injuries. Not to mention jordan was playing with torn ligament in his shooting hand. Not far off the pace of this years heat who've had their big 3 relatively injury free this year. The bulls started

Harper
Jordan
Longley
Kukoc
Rodman

Miami is 30 and 13 right now. What would their record be minus wade and lebron playing with an injury?

[knickscity]

Pippen a SIDEKICK???
Yep, Just like Kobe was during the years Shaq was there.

That don't mean he sucks it's just Jordan was the best player on the Bulls.

That should even have a need for a debate.

[Walduś]

Yep, Just like Kobe was during the years Shaq was there.

That don't mean he sucks it's just Jordan was the best player on the Bulls.

That should even have a need for a debate.
here's the stan. :rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL

09-10 LBJ is a better scorer, much more efficient, a better defender and a much better passer/play-maker.

He's most certainly not a better scorer or defender. Not even close. Fail.

[Indian guy]

The fact of the matter is, James has yet to prove that he can make his ball-dominant style of play fit into a team structure and translate it into championships.

:rolleyes:

This is weak stuff from you. What this season has irrefutably done is absolve LeBron of never winning a championship in Cleveland. He has never had a good enough cast(until now, of course). Nowhere near good enough, in fact.

This season has also put the whole "does LeBron's style of play hurt his teammates?" argument to rest. His former teammates have fallen apart w/o him. Huge drops in efficiency all across the roster. What this has also put to rest is whether LeBron can adjust/succeed playing alongside other stars. The answer has been a resounding YES. Wade and Bosh are thriving and LeBron's PER king for the 4th straight season. Your "ball-dominant" quip holds no weight. LeBron's proven he can SUCCEED playing any style and with any roster around him.

[Lebron23]

:rolleyes:

This is weak stuff from you. What this season has irrefutably done is absolve LeBron of never winning a championship in Cleveland. He has never had a good enough cast(until now, of course). Nowhere near good enough, in fact.

This season has also put the whole "can LeBron's style of play work alongside talented teammates?" argument to rest. Wade and Bosh are thriving and LeBron's PER king for the 4th straight season. Your "ball-dominant" quip holds no weight. If anything, LeBron should've hogged the ball more in Cleveland.


I'll rep you later. You needs some green bars, and it's time to change your avatar.

[oh the horror]

Naw dude.... sorry.

At risk of being labeled a Jordan 'homer' MJ is a better player than Bron is right now.... period.

The stats don't tell the full story here.

Bron doesn't have anywhere near MJ's post game.
Doesn't have anywhere near MJ's movement without the ball.
He doesn't come close to his mid range game.
He doesn't have MJ's overall bball IQ.

And then there's the small intangibles and old school tricks (craftiness) that Bron doesn't have yet.

Bron in that era wouldn't be as dominant as he is today, because the rules and style of play wouldn't allow him to. He can't bulldoze his way to the rim at will like he does today. He won't draw as many fouls as he does today either. And we see glimpses of this from time to time whenever the lane is clogged, if he doesn't bulldoze his way to the rim his game becomes paralyzed to a degree. If his shot isn't going in, he still forces the issue instead of finding other ways to score, such as moving without the ball, posting up or coming off screens.

There's a ton of refinement left on both Wade and Bron's game on both ends. Athleticism would only take them so far in that era, since the league wasn't modified to facilitate perimeter players like it is today.

Now.... is what I mentioned everything? NO obviously not, there's still things that Bron can do, but what I mentioned is significant enough to warrant us saying MJ at that stage of his career>>>>> any Bron (and Wade) version so far.



Pretty damn spot on here.

[Indian guy]

Does anyone honestly think '09 and '10 LeBron isn't winning championships with an equivalent cast and coaching staff as 96-98 Bulls?

[Lebron23]

Does anyone honestly think '09 and '10 LeBron isn't winning championships with an equivalent cast and coaching staff as 96-98 Bulls?


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[97 bulls]

I'll rep you later. You needs some green bars, and it's time to change your avatar.
Its defintely time to change his avatar

[Papaya Petee]

So far all we have is.

Post up-game.
He won a championship.
Leadership skills.


Nice, forgot that winning a championship while comparing individual performances is everything.

I realize most people hate LeBron because of his move to Miami and the way he is, but the way you guys compare him is sickening.

Not even close to a past his prime Jordan? Better at nothing? Just stop now, you're making yourself look like idiots.

[97 bulls]

Does anyone honestly think '09 and '10 LeBron isn't winning championships with an equivalent cast and coaching staff as 96-98 Bulls?
Im sure he could. Now let me ask you a question, do you think they're as dominant with lebron in place of jordan? In case you forgot, 72 wins, 69 wins, and 62 wins. The latter while having scottie pippen for hallf the season.

[97 bulls]

So far all we have is.

Post up-game.
He won a championship.
Leadership skills.


Nice, forgot that winning a championship while comparing individual performances is everything.

I realize most people hate LeBron because of his move to Miami and the way he is, but the way you guys compare him is sickening.

Not even close to a past his prime Jordan? Better at nothing? Just stop now, you're making yourself look like idiots.
Anybody who says lebron james is not even. Close sompare to jordan is just being silly. But don't forget, jordan was injured. And he didn't have pippen. At least be fair.

[97 bulls]

Id also like to send a post directed to indian guy. I used to think you were a bulls fan. But after watching how much you degraded them to defend jordan, I realized I was wrong and labeled you a jordan fan. Now after what im reading from your posts in this thread I see you're only a front runner. And to me, that's the worse thing you can be as a sports fan. You're pathetic. And you don't deserve to have that bulls logo under your name.

[IGOTGAME]

Id also like to send a post directed to indian guy. I used to think you were a bulls fan. But after watching how much you degraded them to defend jordan, I realized I was wrong and labeled you a jordan fan. Now after what im reading from your posts in this thread I see you're only a front runner. And to me, that's the worse thing you can be as a sports fan. You're pathetic. And you don't deserve to have that bulls logo under your name.

ohh...those be fightin words.

[Indian guy]

But after watching how much you degraded them to defend jordan

When did I ever do this?


Now after what im reading from your posts in this thread I see you're only a front runner.

Based on what?

[Indian guy]

Im sure he could. Now let me ask you a question, do you think they're as dominant with lebron in place of jordan?

Most likely not. But that's like asking whether Cleveland averages 63 wins the last 2 seasons with MJ in place of LeBron.

MJ is the undisputed GOAT to me, but he played on DAMN good teams that were coached by the GOAT. LeBron's last 2 seasons easily rank among the 10 greatest seasons ever. To act like he wouldn't be able to win it all with THOSE teams when he carried some ridiculously ordinary ones to 60+ is being very, very deluded. I haven't read a single decent argument in here as to why 2010 LeBron wouldn't win championships with equivalent casts.

[branslowski]

Its defintely time to change his avatar

:oldlol: Nice...

[andgar923]

Does anyone honestly think '09 and '10 LeBron isn't winning championships with an equivalent cast and coaching staff as 96-98 Bulls?

I don't think he could.

The Bulls won with their grit, heart and mental fortitude in the late 90s, and MJ's leadership is what molded this.

This is yet another example of people thinking that they can just transplant current Bron into a past era, and expect the same results, without even thinking how different the game was and how his style of play would translate. And as I noted, there's other aspects of the game that aren't taken into consideration.

Not that Bron would be a scrub, but his numbers and play wouldn't be the same if we take him exactly as he is today.

[Lebron23]

I don't think he could.

The Bulls won with their grit, heart and mental fortitude in the late 90s, and MJ's leadership is what molded this.

This is yet another example of people thinking that they can just transplant current Bron into a past era, and expect the same results, without even thinking how different the game was and how his style of play would translate. And as I noted, there's other aspects of the game that aren't taken into consideration.

Not that Bron would be a scrub, but his numbers and play wouldn't be the same if we take him exactly as he is today.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I am gonna BUMP this thread after LeBron wins an NBA Finals MVP from 2011 to 2016.

[Indian guy]

I don't think he could.

The Bulls won with their grit, heart and mental fortitude in the late 90s, and MJ's leadership is what molded this.

This is yet another example of people thinking that they can just transplant current Bron into a past era, and expect the same results, without even thinking how different the game was and how his style of play would translate. And as I noted, there's other aspects of the game that aren't taken into consideration.

Not that Bron would be a scrub, but his numbers and play wouldn't be the same if we take him exactly as he is today.

:facepalm

I'm glad you have been on my IL for years.

[Lebron23]

Bookmarked

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[andgar923]

:facepalm

I'm glad you have been on my IL for years.
Honored.

[Lebron23]

A subscription for this thread has been added.

[97 bulls]

Most likely not. But that's like asking whether Cleveland averages 63 wins the last 2 seasons with MJ in place of LeBron.

MJ is the undisputed GOAT to me, but he played on DAMN good teams that were coached by the GOAT. LeBron's last 2 seasons easily rank among the 10 greatest seasons ever. To act like he wouldn't be able to win it all with THOSE teams when he carried some ridiculously ordinary ones to 60+ is being very, very deluded. I haven't read a single decent argument in here as to why 2010 LeBron wouldn't win championships with equivalent casts.
I see no reason why jordan couldn't take those cleveland teams farther than james. And cleveland was better than you're making them out to be. Don't go solely on their record this year. They've endured major injuriess this year. And they lost key players as well as lebron.

[Lebron23]

:facepalm

I'm glad you have been on my IL for years.

The 1980's Atlanta Hawks had 4 LeBron's.

[Indian guy]

They've endured major injuriess this year.

That's only a recent occurrence. They had the worst record in the league even when their entire core from last year was healthy.

[andgar923]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I am gonna BUMP this thread after LeBron wins an NBA Finals MVP from 2011 to 2016.

What would that have anything to do with him playing with the 96-98 Bulls?

A team that is built around a system which needs a strong post player for it to be successful?

He may very well win Finals MVP in this era, playing for this team, but that doesn't guarantee that he'd do it in a different era, different team, and different system.

[Lebron23]

What would that have anything to do with him playing with the 96-98 Bulls?

A team that is built around a system which needs a strong post player for it to be successful?

He may very well win Finals MVP in this era, playing for this team, but that doesn't guarantee that he'd do it in a different era, different team, and different system.

Who's going to guard LeBron? Jeff Hornacek, 6'3" Gary Payton, or Detlef Schremf. Only a great defensive team like the 2008-2010 Boston Celtics limited LeBron's production in the playoffs. You also needs to check Kobe's stats against the Celtics in the Finals.

2008 and the Current Celtics >> 1996 Sonics, 1997-98 Utah Jazz.

[Walduś]

Bookmarked

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:
nothing to bump, lebron will just quit... again.

[97 bulls]

When did I ever do this?



Based on what?
Just the way your defending lebron tooth and nail. Like you have a vested interest in james or something. I just don't see this coming from a bulls/jordan fan. Obviously your entitled to your opinion. But I just call em like I see em.

And going back, I've always believed your a reasonable poster. Even when we disagree. But I just feel like im starting to see a trend with you. Youve knocked the bulls talent and opposition by saying the bulls won in a diluted era. Youve defended wade over pippen, now this. In fact I havnt seen anytime when you've defende the bulls. I could be wrong and obviously my opinion means nothing. But its still mine.

[andgar923]

Who's going to guard LeBron? Jeff Hornacek, 6'3" Gary Payton, or Detlef Schremf. Only a great defensive team like the 2008-2010 Boston Celtics limited LeBron's production in the playoffs. You also needs to check Kobe's stats against the Celtics in the Finals.

2008 and the Current Celtics >> 1996 Sonics, 1997-98 Utah Jazz.

Again... different offensive style player, different defensive rules, different era.

MJ didn't just dribble and dominate the ball the same way Bron does. MJ received different looks on the offensive end, he wasn't just stagnant on the perimeter. What made MJ so hard to guard by anyone, and what makes Kobe so deadly, is that he give the defense so many different looks to worry about.

The defense that the Celtics played vs Bron wasn't so different than the defense he would've faced day in and day out in the 90s, but things would've been even harder for Bron since the lane would be clogged.

Handchecking isn't even much of an issue with Bron, the clogged lanes however would really put a wrench in his game.

So he has the ball at the top like he does now, well... he can't just ram his way through like he does today, so what does he do? he shoots jumpers all day. The defense can live with that and do to the physical nature of the game, he'd be forced into less comfort spots. He doesn't move well without the ball, so he'd have less fg attempts or chuck even more.

MJ unlike Bron, could also take advantage of mismatches. If he had a small on him he'd post him or shoot over him, if he had a big he'd take him off the dribble, and Bron doesn't do this as consistently. We saw this last night vs the Hawks and it cost them the game.

The situations that we see him in today, wouldn't be the same in that era, because the defense would be different and the rules would be to his disadvantage.

[97 bulls]

That's only a recent occurrence. They had the worst record in the league even when their entire core from last year was healthy.
No, jamison missed the first 10 games or so, as well as the other injuries. Mo gibson has missed a few games. I don't think they've been t full strength the whole season. And that's not an excuse but hey they were decimated through FA. And never really replaced james.

[Indian guy]

Just the way your defending lebron tooth and nail. Like you have a vested interest in james or something.

I've been a LeBron fan since 05-06. Don't we all get a little worked up defending our favorite players? Especially with this many haters around.


I just don't see this coming from a bulls/jordan fan.

Really? There are quite a few of us out there. Up until The Decision LeBron was very well liked here in Chicago.


Youve knocked the bulls talent and opposition by saying the bulls won in a diluted era.

I think you're confusing me with someone else here. I have never said either. There's nothing I hate more than this era>that era arguments.


Youve defended wade over pippen

I'm sorry, but you won't find any legit NBA fan who considers Wade<Pippen. Wade's been a Top 3 player for half a decade now. Pippen, while a perennial Top 10 guy and maybe even Top 5 for a few years, was never the consistent force Wade was.


In fact I havnt seen anytime when you've defende the bulls. I could be wrong and obviously my opinion means nothing. But its still mine.

That could be because I've mostly stayed out of 90's Bulls/MJ/Kobe/Pippen threads for years. They've all been rehashed to death. Nothing new to discuss anymore. That doesn't mean I'm not a Bulls fan though. When it comes to anything Bulls-related I prefer being on the Bulls board @ RealGM(best place to be if you're a Bulls fan).

[97 bulls]

I've been a LeBron fan since 05-06. Don't we all get a little worked up defending our favorite players? Especially with this many haters around.



Really? There are quite a few of us out there. Up until The Decision LeBron was very well liked here in Chicago.



I think you're confusing me with someone else here. I have never said either. There's nothing I hate more than this era>that era arguments.



I'm sorry, but you won't find any legit NBA fan who considers Wade<Pippen. Wade's been a Top 3 player for half a decade now. Pippen, while a perennial Top 10 guy and maybe even Top 5 for a few years, was never the consistent force Wade was.



That could be because I've mostly stayed out of 90's Bulls/MJ/Kobe/Pippen threads for years. They've all been rehashed to death. Nothing new to discuss anymore. That doesn't mean I'm not a Bulls fan though. When it comes to anything Bulls-related I prefer being on the Bulls board @ RealGM(best place to be if you're a Bulls fan).
Maybe im wrong. If so I apoligize. And wade and pippen are equal

[RedBlackAttack]

:rolleyes:

This is weak stuff from you. What this season has irrefutably done is absolve LeBron of never winning a championship in Cleveland. He has never had a good enough cast(until now, of course). Nowhere near good enough, in fact.

This season has also put the whole "does LeBron's style of play hurt his teammates?" argument to rest. His former teammates have fallen apart w/o him. Huge drops in efficiency all across the roster. What this has also put to rest is whether LeBron can adjust/succeed playing alongside other stars. The answer has been a resounding YES. Wade and Bosh are thriving and LeBron's PER king for the 4th straight season. Your "ball-dominant" quip holds no weight. LeBron's proven he can SUCCEED playing any style and with any roster around him.
Calling James 'ball-dominant' when things got tight in the playoffs isn't a 'quip'... It is reality. Well, that is until the 2010 Celtics series when he seemed to have no interest in initiating the offense.

You seem to be enjoying the Cavaliers' decline this year, but let me tell you this...

Even if everything you say is true... His supporting cast in Cleveland stunk and he was responsible for 50 wins by himself...

The idea that James was only capable of competing for a championship with the second best player in the league by his side is far less than I had envisioned for a player of his caliber. It stinks to most NBA fans, to be honest.

If his legacy in the NBA is that he could lead a 'bad' team (by your estimation) to a couple of 60+ win regular seasons and then embarrassing exits in the playoffs and then needed to join forces with Dwyane Wade to win a ring, I consider that a letdown for a guy this talented.

That is even if he wins a title in Miami and, all I can say is that he better win championships down there after all of the talk about how awful Cleveland was during his tenure. In fact, with what is being said about a Cleveland team that was elite in the final three years that James was there, he should really obliterate the competition with Wade, Bosh, Miller and Haslem by his side.

When you look at it objectively, though, they are playing at about the level this regular season that the Cavs were in his last two years there... Certainly no better. And, I don't remember the Cavs ever having a four-game losing streak during the back-to-back 60-win years and they fought through A TON of injuries, especially last year.

James has been a part of two of the four games that they have lost, so that can't be used as an excuse. He also suffered bumps and bruises during his Cleveland years and wasn't always 100 percent.

[97 bulls]

I just checked. The cavs have played 40 games. This is their injury count so far.

Jamison has missed 6 games
williams has missed 9 games
gibson has missed 10 games
Varejo has missed 10 so far

Actually, the cavs have a ready made team for a superstar. All they have is shooters, and hustlers. Nobody to get their own shot or create their own offense. That's their problem. They've basically assembled a team that was catered to lebrons strengths.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I just checked. The cavs have played 40 games. This is their injury count so far.

Jamison has missed 6 games
williams has missed 9 games
gibson has missed 10 games
Varejo has missed 10 so far

Actually, the cavs have a ready made team for a superstar. All they have is shooters, and hustlers. Nobody to get their own shot or create their own offense. That's their problem. They've basically assembled a team that was catered to lebrons strengths.
Exactly ... you just can't take a superstar and not even replace him with a legit all-star, with a team catered to fit a star player ... and expect them to even be competitive.

Don't worry, Indian Guy has been on the King's "tip" for sometime now ...

I wonder what the excuse will be after he doesn't win in Miami.

:oldlol:

[RedBlackAttack]

I just checked. The cavs have played 40 games. This is their injury count so far.

Jamison has missed 6 games
williams has missed 9 games
gibson has missed 10 games
Varejo has missed 10 so far

Actually, the cavs have a ready made team for a superstar. All they have is shooters, and hustlers. Nobody to get their own shot or create their own offense. That's their problem. They've basically assembled a team that was catered to lebrons strengths.
...and (aside from James) the team is without last year's starting center, backup center and combo-guard playmaker off the bench... And it is under a different coach with a completely different system.

But, let's not mess with the narrative being pushed forward.

[97 bulls]

...and (aside from James) the team is without last year's starting center, backup center and combo-guard playmaker off the bench... And it is under a different coach with a completely different system.

But, let's not mess with the narrative being pushed forward.
All too true.

[97 bulls]

Exactly ... you just can't take a superstar and not even replace him with a legit all-star, with a team catered to fit a star player ... and expect them to even be competitive.

Don't worry, Indian Guy has been on the King's "tip" for sometime now ...

I wonder what the excuse will be after he doesn't win in Miami.

:oldlol:
There is no excuse. Barring an injury. But I think winning isn't enough. One thing that seperates jordan is the way his teams won. The sheer and utter dominance. What they were able to do without pippen in 98, rodman in 97, the record setting 72 wins. Followin that up with 69. Miami needs to dominate. I don't think, no, I know that miami isn't much more than a high 40 low 50 win team minus wade or bosh.

[tpols]

I just checked. The cavs have played 40 games. This is their injury count so far.

Jamison has missed 6 games
williams has missed 9 games
gibson has missed 10 games
Varejo has missed 10 so far

Actually, the cavs have a ready made team for a superstar. All they have is shooters, and hustlers. Nobody to get their own shot or create their own offense. That's their problem. They've basically assembled a team that was catered to lebrons strengths.
EXACTLY what I have been saying about the cavs in every single lebron propping thread this year because of cleveland's shit record. You remove the playmaker from the offense and they fall apart.

Wheres gino now?

[Simple Jack]

The idea that James was only capable of competing for a championship with the second best player in the league by his side is far less than I had envisioned for a player of his caliber. It stinks to most NBA fans, to be honest.

Who's idea is that? Going onto this team doesn't prove anything about what he could or could not do with a team.

[97 bulls]

EXACTLY what I have been saying about the cavs in every single lebron propping thread this year because of cleveland's shit record. You remove the playmaker from the offense and they fall apart.

Wheres gino now?
Lol what does he say?

[RedBlackAttack]

Who's idea is that? Going onto this team doesn't prove anything about what he could or could not do with a team.
Exactly. We will never know... And that is the biggest travesty of the whole thing.

[catch24]

I just checked. The cavs have played 40 games. This is their injury count so far.

Jamison has missed 6 games
williams has missed 9 games
gibson has missed 10 games
Varejo has missed 10 so far

Actually, the cavs have a ready made team for a superstar. All they have is shooters, and hustlers. Nobody to get their own shot or create their own offense. That's their problem. They've basically assembled a team that was catered to lebrons strengths.

This and some. Only a crazy deranged LeBron homer would disagree. Real talk.

[tpols]

Lol what does he say?
You know gino right?

He said that if you put lebron on any team(specifically the current nets) they win 60+ games. And his reference for that is cleveland's current record with the logic being, 'if he can do it with mo' he can do it with anyone.."

Funny thing is miami, despite having much better teammates for lebron, will finish with less wins than those cleveland teams. It's crazy how these guys immediatley shoot down the fact that lebron had a great system in cleveland and only run on the stigma of the names of the players instead of how they actually played together.

[RedBlackAttack]

You know gino right?

He said that if you put lebron on any team(specifically the current nets) they win 60+ games. And his reference for that is cleveland's current record with the logic being, 'if he can do it with mo' he can do it with anyone.."

Funny thing is miami, despite having much better teammates for lebron, will finish with less wins than those cleveland teams. It's crazy how these guys immediatley shoot down the fact that lebron had a great system in cleveland and only run on the stigma of the names of the players instead of how they actually played together.
It is much easier to put forward the narrative that James was individually responsible for 50+ wins all by himself than it is to look at the situation as a nuanced one.

It is as simple as this for those types...

Cavs + James = 60+ wins in back-to-back seasons.
Cavs - James = Worst record in the league.

SIMPLE!

Forget the fact that the team was built specifically around James' skillset and that, when you have James, you don't need any guys to create their own shots and, in fact, it can be argued that other playmakers only get in the way with LeBron. But, you take him away from a team built with that mentality and the result is predictable.

Forget the fact that the Cavaliers were decimated, not just by James' departure, but other key losses... And they are playing under a new system with a new coach that was brought in with the assumption that James would be a part of the team. Then, throw in the injuries, but none of that matters.

Forget the fact that, as bad as Cleveland was while James was single-handedly carrying them, that Miami likely will not meet their regular season win total with Wade and Bosh as his teammates.

Forget EVERYTHING other than this...

Cavs + James = back-to-back 60 wins.
Cavs - James = worst team in the league.

It is such a simple-minded approach that I'm surprised to see some of the more intelligent (or I thought so) posters on ISH touting it as a coherent, be-all end-all argument. Then again, it accomplishes their goal of turning James into a basketball god unlike the league has ever seen (no player has ever been responsible for 50+ wins on his own).

[Alhazred]

What this season has irrefutably done is absolve LeBron of never winning a championship in Cleveland. He has never had a good enough cast(until now, of course). Nowhere near good enough, in fact.

This season has also put the whole "does LeBron's style of play hurt his teammates?" argument to rest. His former teammates have fallen apart w/o him. Huge drops in efficiency all across the roster. What this has also put to rest is whether LeBron can adjust/succeed playing alongside other stars. The answer has been a resounding YES. Wade and Bosh are thriving and LeBron's PER king for the 4th straight season. Your "ball-dominant" quip holds no weight. LeBron's proven he can SUCCEED playing any style.

Indian Guy, discount the Cavs' loss of Mike Brown and various players like Shaq and Z all you want, but can you please explain why last year's Cavs managed to have a better record than this year's Heat after the first 43 games?

'11 Heat after 43 games- 30-13
'10 Cavs after 43 games- 32-11

Please don't use any excuses about a "period of adjustment", either. Supposedly, Lebron can join even the worst team in the league and turn them into a 60 win team all by himself with no regard to who is in the lineup according to his disciples. Even taking into account their recent string of injuries, there should be no reason for the '11 Heat to have a similar record as last year's Cavs if Lebron's previous team was truly that awful.

And if you still think the Cavs' success was solely because of Lebron, why couldn't he even make the playoffs without Mike Brown as coach?

2005: Cavs go 42-40, miss playoffs
2006: Cavs hire Mike Brown, go 50-32 and take Detroit to 7 games in the second round

Also, Cleveland managed to win 50 games and make the Finals in '07 with James posting inferior overall stats compared to his last season without Brown coaching.

Lebron James in '05: 27.2 points per game, 47.2% field goal percentage, 75% free throw percentage, 35.1% three-point percentage, 7.4 rebounds, 7.2 assists and 2.2 steals per game.

Lebron James in '07: 27.3 points per game, 47.6% field goal percentage,. 69.8% free throw percentage, 31.9% 3-point percentage 6.7 rebounds per game, 6 assists per game, 1.6 steals per game.

For all the times I've heard people disparage Brown, it's hard to ignore the turnaround Cleveland had when he took over. They went from missing the playoffs for consecutive seasons with Lebron, and then nearly making it to the ECF the very next season with no major additions other than Larry Hughes who only played in 36 games.

I don't think the Cavs were a particularly loaded team by any stretch of the imagination, but the amount of abuse hurled towards Cleveland over the past year by Lebron supporters(who were probably cheering for Cleveland last year) has been ridiculous. Cleveland's turn for the worse was a result of losing most of their frontcourt with no legitimate replacements and the loss of their best asset and coach. They also had one of the biggest frontcourts last year and now they are undersized at practically every position. I'm sorry, but 6-3 Sessions and Antawn Jamison hardly make up for the giant hole in the middle that Cleveland now has. I'll admit that some fans have gone overboard with their hate for Lebron and have been unreasonable with some of the things they've said. I don't think Cleveland was guaranteed to win it all and they didn't have the best supporting cast in the league, either. I won't deny these things, but how anyone can say that they had no shot at winning the championship is beyond me. They had the best record in the league, swept the eventual champions in their regular season series and were heavily favored to beat Boston in the second round with homecourt advantage. How does a team like that have no shot whatsoever at winning it all?

[Simple Jack]

Exactly. We will never know... And that is the biggest travesty of the whole thing.

Since when did it become a requirement to win by yourself or without another good player on the team?

[Fatal9]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).



Please don't use any excuses about a "period of adjustment", either.
Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.

[Lebron23]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.


Excellent Post.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[sh0wtime]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.

:applause:

Plus i remember when Mo Williams, Delonte West, Boobie Gibson (all their PG's) were injured at the same time last year and Lebron tookover at PG averaging 30-9-12 over 12 games until Gibson/Mo returned at PG. They went 11-1 (with 1 loss against Denver where he had 43-13-15) during that span.

Its very likely 08-10 Lebron would be the best in 96-98, but im not sure all fans would agree considering the ridicilous biasness that would be towards Jordans side, some fans just cant let go of history/legends, they just cant accept that the legend is coming to an age and decreasing and that others are playing better, a reason why many think Kobe is still the best today despite pretty many players actually playing better.

[rodman91]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.

if u take away a superstar, its normal that his team will have huge struggle.Without David Robinson, San Antonio was a lottery team in 97.Lebron will be one of the greatest but just because Cavs struggle this much doesnt i mean its all because of Lebron.Its the team they built.They were a team of one man show..just like 2001 sixers.For that reason, they couldnt match up with Spurs in finals and with Boston last year.Without Lebron all offense is gone.Without Howard orlando would be in quiet similiar probably.Many win in regular season is nice but its have been repeated many times by even one man's teams.Jordan at 38 did pretty well with Wizards until he injured so i think he would do similiar or better with just by himself.
Even late 90's Jordan's offensive and defensive versality was superior than Lebron's 08-10.He had unguardable fadeaway move.Still can score in paint.One of the greatest post game by a guard.Clutch performanse in both offense and defense.Better perimeter defense.Better basketball IQ.Old school tricks.Even with an avege a team that build on Jordan would get great winning season..Championship by alone with such a team? probably not.So such impact on a team built around one star,doesnt make better one player to another.

[97 bulls]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.
You've said nothing that hasn't already been mentioned. That team was built to lebrons speciifications so to speak. Im not shocked that they'd fair this badly. Then, you take a bad team and have them endure injuries to key pieces too? And like was stated earlier loose key pieces such as shaq, big z, west, etc.


And why isn't miami doing better even with their 9-8 start? They're currently on a 4 game loosing streak. Based on your calculations miami should probably only have 1 loss since that start. Or at least not struggle with better teams like they've been doing.

As far as jordan, im sure he'd fair similarly in the same situation.

[97 bulls]

:applause:

Plus i remember when Mo Williams, Delonte West, Boobie Gibson (all their PG's) were injured at the same time last year and Lebron tookover at PG averaging 30-9-12 over 12 games until Gibson/Mo returned at PG. They went 11-1 (with 1 loss against Denver where he had 43-13-15) during that span.

Its very likely 08-10 Lebron would be the best in 96-98, but im not sure all fans would agree considering the ridicilous biasness that would be towards Jordans side, some fans just cant let go of history/legends, they just cant accept that the legend is coming to an age and decreasing and that others are playing better, a reason why many think Kobe is still the best today despite pretty many players actually playing better.
Those guys were pgs only in name. James was the dominated the ball about 90% of the time.

[cp3mvp2011]

Lebron isn't even better than larry bird :banana:

[Soundwave]

Exactly ... you just can't take a superstar and not even replace him with a legit all-star, with a team catered to fit a star player ... and expect them to even be competitive.

Don't worry, Indian Guy has been on the King's "tip" for sometime now ...

I wonder what the excuse will be after he doesn't win in Miami.

:oldlol:

Errrr ... that's not a team "tailor made" for LeBron. That's just an average/weak supporting cast that has no one that can create their own shot.

No superstar would want to be on a team like that, that's just the best the Cavs could do.

[cp3mvp2011]

LBJ IS OVEERATED :banana:

[Simple Jack]

Those guys were pgs only in name. James was the dominated the ball about 90% of the time.

Where do you get this number from? There is no way you believe LeBron held the ball 90% of the game on their offensive possessions.

[97 bulls]

Where do you get this number from? There is no way you believe LeBron held the ball 90% of the game on their offensive possessions.
Your right. Im just saying he was the point guard. He did dominate the ball though

[RedBlackAttack]

Since when did it become a requirement to win by yourself or without another good player on the team?
A requirement to win by yourself or without any 'good' players on the team? It isn't. To be the most talented player in a generation and to join a team with the second best player in the league that has already won a title before you get one elsewhere? That is just not something that I (or the majority of basketball fans, if you read the polls) want to see.

Let's be clear about this thing... It has never happened to where the best player in the league became a free agent and joined arguably the second best player in the league without proving that he can win a championship first.

This is something new... And it is (or should be) bothersome to all old-school fans.

[magnax1]

I look at the regular season, and it definitely looks like Lebron is better, but then you get into how much more Jordan put into the playoffs then Lebron did, and I have to really question whether Lebron win in 98. On paper Lebron is definitely better, I just don't trust the guys will to win or ability to take over close games at all.

[Simple Jack]

A requirement to win by yourself or without any 'good' players on the team? It isn't. To be the most talented player in a generation and to join a team with the second best player in the league that has already won a title before you get one elsewhere? That is just not something that I (or the majority of basketball fans, if you read the polls) want to see.

Let's be clear about this thing... It has never happened to where the best player in the league became a free agent and joined arguably the second best player in the league without proving that he can win a championship first.

This is something new... And it is (or should be) bothersome to all old-school fans.

The situation ON THE COURT trumps his decision to leave in terms of how it should be interpreted from a basketball standpoint. Having arguably the two best players on a team together HAS happened before. That's all that matters. Argue all you want about his antics and HOW he decided to put himself in the situation, but in reality, all that matters is what you do on the court and we've seen this type of talent before on a team.

It is bothersome but it doesn't change my opinion of his basketball skills or eliminate him from having an elite legacy based on imaginary requirements (not you, but by the majority of fans).

[Simple Jack]

I look at the regular season, and it definitely looks like Lebron is better, but then you get into how much more Jordan put into the playoffs then Lebron did, and I have to really question whether Lebron win in 98. On paper Lebron is definitely better, I just don't trust the guys will to win or ability to take over close games at all.

There is no factual basis behind this. With the exception of one game in a playoff series (Jordan had a game like this, Kobe as well), he's been spectacular in the playoffs and in close games ALL season for the past 2 years.

[magnax1]

There is no factual basis behind this. With the exception of one game in a playoff series (Jordan had a game like this, Kobe as well), he's been spectacular in the playoffs and in close games ALL season for the past 2 years.
In reality, he's won 1 series against a 50 win team, and he's been spectacular in one series against a 50+ win team, and every series against 50+ win teams except two he's been a plain disappointment.

[Simple Jack]

In reality, he's won 1 series against a 50 win team, and he's been spectacular in one series against a 50+ win team, and every series against 50+ win teams except two he's been a plain disappointment.

So you discount the rest of his playoff series'? In reality, he hasn't really had the opportunity to face many 50+ win teams, and the ones he did either won the title or made it to the championship. Considering the success the Cavaliers team is having this year, you would think doing what he did, would garner some respect. I don't think you'd really even believe yourself if you said that any other player in the league would have had more success in his shoes with that team.

Through 14 games 2 years ago he had one of the best playoff runs of all time.

Why is LeBron held to a higher standard than other elite players in the league? If it's because you expect more out of him than any other player in the league, by a wide margin, then I guess that's understandable. Otherwise, it seems like he can have a better series than say, Kobe Bryant vs the same team but somehow LeBron's series was terribly sub-par but Kobe's wasn't. Or he makes it further than Wade in the playoffs which is the same logic used against him in other "best player debates" yet you use Wade's numbers vs the same team (like last year's Celtics) to claim Wade was more dominant in the series. You can't have it both ways.

[magnax1]

So you discount the rest of his playoff series'? In reality, he hasn't really had the opportunity to face many 50+ win teams, and the ones he did either won the title or made it to the championship. Considering the success the Cavaliers team is having this year, you would think doing what he did, would garner some respect. I don't think you'd really even believe yourself if you said that any other player in the league would have had more success in his shoes with that team.

Through 14 games 2 years ago he had one of the best playoff runs of all time.

Why is LeBron held to a higher standard than other elite players in the league? If it's because you expect more out of him than any other player in the league, by a wide margin, then I guess that's understandable. Otherwise, it seems like he can have a better series than say, Kobe Bryant vs the same team but somehow LeBron's series was terribly sub-par but Kobe's wasn't. Or he makes it further than Wade in the playoffs which is the same logic used against him in other "best player debates" yet you use Wade's numbers vs the same team (like last year's Celtics) to claim Wade was more dominant in the series. You can't have it both ways.
Why does it matter if you play well against crappy teams, and then go and fall apart against the best? Putting up insane stats against the Hawks without two starters and the Bulls isn't that terribly impressive.
Also, I wasn't really comparing Lebron to anybody else before, but since you started, there are really only one or two series I can think of off the top of my head where Kobe played far below his regular season level from 01-10 and not really any I can think of at the moment for Wade. There are quite a few I can think of for Lebron.
And no, there really isn't anybody else who would do as well with the same teams in the regular season. Playoffs is a different story.

[Simple Jack]

Why does it matter if you play well against crappy teams, and then go and fall apart against the best? Putting up insane stats against the Hawks without two starters and the Bulls isn't that terribly impressive.
Also, I wasn't really comparing Lebron to anybody else before, but since you started, there are really only one or two series I can think of off the top of my head where Kobe played far below his regular season level from 01-10 and not really any I can think of at the moment for Wade. There are quite a few I can think of for Lebron.
And no, there really isn't anybody else who would do as well with the same teams in the regular season. Playoffs is a different story.

Except he didn't fall apart. This is what I mean, it's a terrible double standard with no factual basis. Hell, LeBron's "falling apart" has been better than some of the elite players season averages, or close to it.

Your bias is obvious; if you think in 10 years Kobe only had 1 or 2 playoff series below his season averages, you are mistaken. Either way, that's not the issue. The issue is:

When comparing someone like LeBron and Wade, comparative stats vs common opponents are used (for the playoffs) instead of putting more emphasis on the fact that LeBron has made it further than Wade the past few years in the playoffs. When comparing LeBron to someone like Kobe, comparative stats are thrown out the window and only team success is used. Again, you can't have it both ways. LeBron has been the best playoff performer in the league for a few years now.

It's not just the regular season; I really don't think anyone could convince themselves that Wade, Durant, or Kobe would have done any better in LeBron's position on that team, or with equivalent talent.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.

I really think that Lebron's 2009 season gives him a top 10 peak of all time already.

It's pretty incredible to think that had they not rested Lebron, Mo William and Z on the last day of the season, a game that they lost 111-110 to Philadelphia, they would have most likely tied the '86 Celtics home record of 40-1 and finished at 67-15.

That team played very good defense(3rd best in the league), Mo had a solid season(18 ppg, 47 FG%, 59 TS%), Z was a decent center and West and Varejao were good role players, but how often does a team like that win 66 games, nearly tie a record for dominance at home and sweep the first 2 rounds of the playoffs?

I'm not sure there was ever another player who could have made that team as good. I'm not saying that Lebron is as good as any player to ever play the game, but faulting him for not winning it all is ridiculous.

And they sure as hell didn't lose to Orlando because of Lebron. Even with Mo shooting like shit(37% from the field), the biggest problems were that Dwight abused Cleveland's frontline. I mean who thought Dwight was going to average 26 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 apg while shooting 65% from the field and 70% from the line? And who would have thought he'd have 10 points in an overtime(game 4) or a 40/14/4 closeout game?

Or the mismatch Lewis provided, Cleveland's power forwards couldn't get out to the 3 point line, and that was huge considering Lewis had a game-winning 3 in game 1 and a game-tying 3 in game 4 to send the game to OT. Lewis averaged 18 ppg on 49% shooting and he shot 15/31(48%) on 3s in the series.

Lebron wasn't flawless, he had some key turnovers late in game 4, iirc, and he didn't play well in game 6, but he was almost a one man team that series and close to unstoppable. And even more impressive was the way he effortlessly dominated the first 2 rounds.

I have the same feeling about Lebron's '10 season being hurt by him quitting in the Celtics series and playing like trash those last 3 games, but it's pretty amazing that Cleveland was 60-16 with him in the lineup with that team, who were at best, a decent cast, not a cast that you can expect him to win a title with. Now personally, I think he could've gotten to the finals with that cast had he played up to his standard in the last 3 games of that Boston series when his team had a 2-1 lead, but many people don't realize how historically great Lebron has been.

Even in '08, the Cavs were 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him while he averaged 30/8/7 that year on 48% shooting with a TS% of 57%. And he clearly improved his defense, free throw shooting and jump shot in '09.

By the way, what do you consider Lebron's best season including the playoffs? I thought he was a little better during the '10 regular season than the '09 regular season, but because of his playoff performance in '09, I'd choose that.

[goldenryan]

I have nothing to add. Everything aready posted is spot on.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo330/Logralim/THUMBS%20UP/kakashi_thumbs_up.jpg

[Indian guy]

Forget the fact that the team was built specifically around James' skillset

Not this again :facepalm. Haven't I disproved this myth countless times already? There was nothing LeBron-specific about those rosters. Yes, they had a couple of shooters, what team doesn't? The rest of the roster, Varejao excluded, was entirely filled with basketball players, not specialists.


when you have James, you don't need any guys to create their own shots

I hope the goal then is to NOT win a championship, because you're certainly not winning one with only 1 playmaker.


and, in fact, it can be argued that other playmakers only get in the way with LeBron.

The only 2 playmakers that LeBron's ever played with, 'Mo and Wade, have thrived playing around him and vice versa.


Forget the fact that the Cavaliers were decimated, not just by James' departure, but other key losses

I can buy the loss of size in Shaq/Z as somewhat significant but let's be real, how many games does Cleveland win had they both been retained? 25? Certainly no more than that.


And they are playing under a new system with a new coach

80% of Cleveland's offense is high pick-n-rolls. Enough with the "new system" crap. Byron Scott is basically Mike Brown's brother. They both stress defense and have no imagination on the other end of the court. Mike Brown has shown us nothing to suggest he would do better with this team. Cleveland could never win a game w/o LeBron even when he was there.


that Miami likely will not meet their regular season win total with Wade and Bosh as his teammates.

Meaningless. We know their slow start had everything to do with getting adjusted to all the new faces. They have been on a 66-win pace since, and even that pace has been greatly hampered by injuries to their star players recently.


It is such a simple-minded approach

It's called sticking to the facts. Cleveland lost Shaq, Z and West. Gained Jamison and Sessions, which leaves Shaq as their only significant loss, but then again, Cleveland was better without him last season. Which leaves us with only 1 conclusion to make, you lost 1 player(LeBron) and will thus end up winning 40-45 less games with the exact same team. The bit-time injuries are also irrelevant. Cleveland was entirely healthy up till 5-10 games ago, and still held the worst record in the league.

[Indian guy]

No, jamison missed the first 10 games or so

Jamison has only missed 4 games this season, and that came during Cleveland's best stretch of the year.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

These type of time warping questions, we'll never know the answer to.
For example, someone said MJ could average 50 PPG in today's game due to different rules and handchecking gone.
I'm still not buying it, because today's league has far bigger and more athletic players.

Stat Geeks can make all the conspiracy theories they want, but the truth is we'll never know what would've happened. Unless time machines get invented lol:lol

[zizozain]

one word
mintlality


and
- bball I.Q. .. jump shot .. post game .. moving without ball .. leadership skills .. competitive drive

GOD SEES EVERYTHING







--

[RedBlackAttack]

Not this again :facepalm. Haven't I disproved this myth countless times already?
It has never been disproved. And, this conversation will continue to take place as long as those who want to promote James as a guy worth 50 games by himself continue to push that conversation.


There was nothing LeBron-specific about those rosters. Yes, they had a couple of shooters, what team doesn't? The rest of the roster, Varejao excluded, was entirely filled with basketball players, not specialists.

Don't be dense. The strategy was very clear by the Cavaliers. Surround James with shooters and hustle guys that don't need the ball in their hands to have an impact. Shaq was really the one guy that was brought in that could create his own shot and he was relegated to very few touches for the majority of the season.

You can literally go through the entire rotation and see the effort to get specific kinds of players for James.

Mo Williams - Combo-guard (not a real PG). Great spot-up shooter. Does not need the ball in his hands to have an impact.

Anthony Parker - Was acquired after the defensive meltdown against the Magic in which we had no length at the guard position to defend shooters. Excellent spot-up shooter. Does not need the ball in his hands to have an impact.

Antawn Jamison - Stretch 4. One of the better shooting PFs in the league for the last 5+ years, especially from behind the arc. Was brought in to stretch the floor and to open up lanes for James.

Anderson Varejao - Hustle guy. Good offensive rebounder and defender. He is also excellent at running the pick-and-roll with James, getting served up layups when defenses react. Also good cutting to the basket off-the-ball. Can't create anything on his own without a playmaker beside him.

Delonte West - Utility guy off of the bench that took on the role of playmaker when James need a spell. Also a capable spot-up shooter and an excellent defender. He is another of the combo-guards.

Boobie Gibson - One of the best pure shooters in the league. Doesn't need the ball in his hands to have an impact. More of a specialty player than a guy that can make plays off the dribble.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Arguably the best shooting 5 in the NBA over the last several years. He is a floor-spacer that really relies on playmakers to get him open shots. Provides length in the front-court. Excellent on the offensive boards.

JJ Hickson - A young, talented guy that was being groomed as a more conventional 4. Has excellent athleticism, but relies on a playmaker to get him the ball around the basket... Or to get out on the break. Started until Jamison got his feet wet and then saw his minutes and role cut dramatically.

Jamario Moon - Another addition that was all about the struggles with the Magic's length on the perimeter. Saw very limited minutes in his one season with James. Not a capable playmaker. His acquisition was almost exclusively about defense and length on that side of the floor.


You don't see a trend, here? The Cavs could have easily added another playmaker somewhere along the way... Or a natural PG and not a bunch of combo guards who could shoot. However, the fear was that James would not mesh well with a natural point and it would create a situation like what we saw in Portland with Andre Miller and Brandon Roy... Both guys that need the ball in their hands to have a major impact.

So, the Cavs went after guys who could stretch the floor, open up lanes and compliment James' ability to get to the hoop. Guess what? It was successful. Guess what else? When you take away the catalyst for the offense, everything falls apart.

If you don't think the Cavaliers were unique in the way that they built this team, name me one other team with as many shooters at every position and this amount of combo guards. James has a very unique skill-set and this team was built in a very unique way.


The only 2 playmakers that LeBron's ever played with, 'Mo and Wade, have thrived playing around him and vice versa.
Mo Williams IS NOT a playmaker. He is a great spot-up shooter. His playmaking ability has never been his strong suit... Not when he was in Milwaukee and not in Cleveland. His greatest asset is his ability to compliment a playmaker by stretching the floor.

Wade is a playmaker and I wouldn't exactly say that he and James have 'thrived' off of playing with one another. James' numbers are down across the board and that includes FG%. They basically take turns isolating, which is pretty much what I envisioned when the announcement was made. They do not compliment each others' games very well.

They do win games because they are able to overwhelm teams with talent alone. Maybe that will be enough to get a championship... I don't know. I do know that Wade and James are not perfect complimentary players with one another.

At the same time, I'm sure the Cavs would have added Dwyane Wade given the opportunity. It was just sort of assumed that the Top 2 players in the league didn't need to play with one another.


I can buy the loss of size in Shaq/Z as somewhat significant but let's be real, how many games does Cleveland win had they both been retained? 25? Certainly no more than that.

Listen... No one is saying that the Cavaliers with the exact same team as last year minus James would be world-beaters... They really needed a player with James' skillset to have real success. But they wouldn't be 8-33, either.


80% of Cleveland's offense is high pick-n-rolls. Enough with the "new system" crap. Byron Scott is basically Mike Brown's brother. They both stress defense and have no imagination on the other end of the court. Mike Brown has shown us nothing to suggest he would do better with this team. Cleveland could never win a game w/o LeBron even when he was there.

Scott was brought in to run a more up-tempo game, which should have been obvious. Cleveland was one of the most methodically slow teams in NBA history under Mike Brown.

The idea was to get James in the open floor and give the team more scoring opportunities. That is why he went out and got Sessions to try and add something that could get them out in the open floor. Unfortunately, we don't have the pieces for that kind of game.

As much heat as Mike Brown took, I think that a team with limited talent like the Cavs have right now would be much better off in his defensive-minded, ugly-it-up style of basketball. I would have liked to see Scott coach James, though, so I can't argue with the hire.

But, I think if the Cavs' FO had to do it over again, they would have kept Brown for exactly those reasons.


Meaningless. We know their slow start had everything to do with getting adjusted to all the new faces. They have been on a 66-win pace since, and even that pace has been greatly hampered by injuries to their star players recently.

The Cavs saw major injuries to Shaq and Mo last year, arguably the 2nd and 3rd best players on the team, and they never lost four-straight games. I'm not even sure they ever lost three-straight games (James has played in 2-of-4 losses, too).

Does that mean that this absolutely awful, pitiful Cavs team somehow compensated for losses to key players, yet this bastion of talent in Miami cannot? It is sort of odd with the way that the Cavs are talked about by the James fans. It would also scare me if I was a James fan.


Cleveland was entirely healthy up till 5-10 games ago, and still held the worst record in the league.

This team has been struggling with major injuries since the start of the season. There have only been a few games where all of the major pieces were there. Like I said, this team would have really struggled with everyone back minus James, but they wouldn't be 8-33.

[pete's montreux]

RBA, I think you're slightly underestimating Mo off the dribble. He had to create 90% of his shots in Milwaukee.

[RedBlackAttack]

RBA, I think you're slightly underestimating Mo off the dribble. He had to create 90% of his shots in Milwaukee.
He was never the primary playmaker in Milwaukee. That would have been Michael Redd. Maybe he was more of a playmaker with the Bucks than he was with the Cavs, but that isn't saying much. The fact of the matter is, he has never been the primary playmaker on any team in his entire career, which is saying something for a supposed point guard.

He is not a traditional point guard... Great shooting combo guard, like I said.

[pete's montreux]

He was never the primary playmaker in Milwaukee. That would have been Michael Redd. Maybe he was more of a playmaker with the Bucks than he was with the Cavs, but that isn't saying much. The fact of the matter is, he has never been the primary playmaker on any team in his entire career, which is saying something for a supposed point guard.

He is not a traditional point guard... Great shooting combo guard, like I said.

I didn't say he was, but just because he wasn't the primary playmaker doesn't mean he's not a playmaker at all. :confusedshrug:

I mean It's not like when he tries to make a play, he foams at the mouth and rockets the ball into the stands. He's completely capable. He's a third option.

[RedBlackAttack]

I didn't say he was, but just because he wasn't the primary playmaker doesn't mean he's not a playmaker at all. :confusedshrug:

I mean It's not like when he tries to make a play, he foams at the mouth and rockets the ball into the stands. He's completely capable. He's a third option.
I guess the point is this... He wasn't brought into Cleveland because of his great playmaking skills as a point guard (and that isn't how he was used). He was brought in because he is a great shooter that would compliment James' ability to draw defenders and kick the ball out.

Sure, he can playmake occasionally, but that wasn't his primary role on this team. He would/does occasionally get to the basket and unleashes his "Mo-Flo" (floater in the lane), but that is more of an extra added bonus with Mo.

He really needs a great playmaker beside him to open up shots to have the kind of impact that he had in the last couple of years. And, the point is, that is not usually the primary role for a point guard.

He is a career 5.0 assist per game player and he was well under 5 assists per game during the 66-win season with the Cavs.

[pete's montreux]

I guess the point is this... He wasn't brought into Cleveland because of his great playmaking skills as a point guard (and that isn't how he was used). He was brought in because he is a great shooter that would compliment James' ability to draw defenders and kick the ball out.

Sure, he can playmake occasionally, but that wasn't his primary role on this team. He would/does occasionally get to the basket and unleashes his "Mo-Flo" (floater in the lane), but that is more of an extra added bonus with Mo.

He really needs a great playmaker beside him to open up shots to have the kind of impact that he had in the last couple of years. And, the point is, that is not usually the primary role for a point guard.

He is a career 5.0 assist per game player and he was well under 5 assists per game during the 66-win season with the Cavs.

As a passer I think he's right where he should be. I never thought he was that good of a passer anyways.

However, It's not like he was given many opportunities to make plays in Cleveland with LeBron. You Cleveland fans would be the first to say that 95% of the offense was ran through LBJ and everyone else kind of...stood around waiting for the ball. The O on that team was basically motion-less.

And you can't really gauge his playmaking this year because of how god awful the roster and team is. No one can make plays with that jv squad.

[RedBlackAttack]

As a passer I think he's right where he should be. I never thought he was that good of a passer anyways.

However, It's not like he was given many opportunities to make plays in Cleveland with LeBron. You Cleveland fans would be the first to say that 95% of the offense was ran through LBJ and everyone else kind of...stood around waiting for the ball. The O on that team was basically motion-less.

And you can't really gauge his playmaking this year because of how god awful the roster and team is. No one can make plays with that jv squad.
I specifically said that he was brought in for his great shooting ability and not his playmaking. And, yeah... When you have LeBron James on your team, 95 percent of the offense SHOULD be run through him... Which was the entire point I was making.

If you are relying on Mo Williams to be your primary playmaker, the team is destined to fail. He is at his best -- as I said -- in a situation like the last two years when he is given wide open shots and asked upon occasionally to create something. When he is playing a full-time point guard position and being asked to run an offensive set, he is going to struggle.

As for his passing... A traditional point guard's role is to run offensive sets, create tempo and set up others for scoring opportunities... Passing is what a natural PG really should be his best at. That is why I called him a combo-guard and a unique player to use at the 1 on an elite team. That isn't his game.

Now, with no LeBron James, he is being asked to be a traditional point guard, a role he should never be thrust into. It isn't his fault and I actually still really like Mo. I'm not putting him down as a player. I just recognize his limitations.

[pete's montreux]

I know what you said, but you ran down the list of players and graded their overall abilities. Mo is a better playmaker than you're leading on.

And playing LeBron ball didn't win you anything. SA stopped LeBron and you lost in 4. Maybe if someone like Mo was given a little more freedom the offense might not be as predictable and easy to defend.

[RedBlackAttack]

I know what you said, but you ran down the list of players and graded their overall abilities. Mo is a better playmaker than you're leading on.

And playing LeBron ball didn't win you anything. SA stopped LeBron and you lost in 4. Maybe if someone like Mo was given a little more freedom the offense might not be as predictable and easy to defend.
Do you see Mo Williams as a true point guard? And, he wasn't a part of the team that lost to San Antonio.

[pete's montreux]

Do you see Mo Williams as a true point guard? And, he wasn't a part of the team that lost to San Antonio.
I don't think we've ever seen Mo in a good enough situation to accurately judge him. I was referencing the 2007 finals as proof that you can't win playing LeBron ball, and saying that a player like Mo could do some damage in that offense if he was given the opportunity, because the offense hasn't been any different since LBJ was drafted, even with the players that have been added.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't think we've ever seen Mo in a good enough situation to accurately judge him. I was referencing the 2007 finals as proof that you can't win playing LeBron ball, and saying that a player like Mo could do some damage in that offense if he was given the opportunity, because the offense hasn't been any different since LBJ was drafted, even with the players that have been added.
I feel like -- after watching him in almost every game for the last two years -- I have a pretty good handle on his game. Especially given this season, where he is being asked to actually be a natural PG. He was much, much more comfortable and looked 100x better playing 'LeBron ball.'

He just doesn't look comfortable running the offensive sets and creating shots for others. You can be on an untalented roster, lose a bunch of games and still show that -- individually -- you can handle the position. He looks like a fish out of water 90 percent of the time as a natural point and primary playmaker.

It doesn't fit his skillset.

[pete's montreux]

I feel like -- after watching him in almost every game for the last two years -- I have a pretty good handle on his game. Especially given this season, where he is being asked to actually be a natural PG. He was much, much more comfortable and looked 100x better playing 'LeBron ball.'

He just doesn't look comfortable running the offensive sets and creating shots for others. You can be on an untalented roster, lose a bunch of games and still show that -- individually -- you can handle the position. He looks like a fish out of water 90 percent of the time as a natural point and primary playmaker.

It doesn't fit his skillset.

I completely understand what you're saying, however, I saw quite a bit of Mo in Milwaukee and he was completely capable of making plays on his own. He was actually overlooked and maybe a tad underrated. I remember a game against Boston that he took over in the fourth and dropped like 31 total. He had multiple jumpshots off the dribble over bigger defenders. It made me a fan of his, until he was traded to Cleveland of course.

Anyways, on a Cleveland team with LeBron getting ALL the attention, Mo could've been given more opportunities and probably would've excelled beyond your expectations. LeBron is the best player in the game, he opens up the floor and creates opportunities by simply being in the game. Mo should've got the ball more.

[RedBlackAttack]

I completely understand what you're saying, however, I saw quite a bit of Mo in Milwaukee and he was completely capable of making plays on his own. He was actually overlooked and maybe a tad underrated. I remember a game against Boston that he took over in the fourth and dropped like 31 total. He had multiple jumpshots off the dribble over bigger defenders. It made me a fan of his, until he was traded to Cleveland of course.

Anyways, on a Cleveland team with LeBron getting ALL the attention, Mo could've been given more opportunities and probably would've excelled beyond your expectations. LeBron is the best player in the game, he opens up the floor and creates opportunities by simply being in the game. Mo should've got the ball more.
Mo was underrated in Milwaukee. I said that at the time, as well, and I was ecstatic when the Cavs made a move for him. Don't get me wrong, here... I'm not saying that Mo is a bad player... Not at all. He can be a really good scorer in the right system with the right kinds of players next to him.

I do think he needs to play with a real playmaker who can open up the floor, though. Understand, when I say playmaker, I'm not just talking about a guy who can get his own shot, but get shots for other guys. The kind of guy that can break down a defense and set up teammates in the spots that they like.

Your point guard is the absolute perfect example of what a real, great playmaker is. Rondo is a phenomenal player... One of my favorite players in the NBA not wearing wine-and-gold. He and Mo Williams are about as polar opposite as you can get. Yet, Mo is being asked by the current Cavs to do essentially what Rondo does for the Celtics. It is lunacy and, once again... I don't blame Mo.

He could go down to Miami right now and he would be a phenomenal role player next to James, Wade and Bosh... But he needs those kinds of guys to really be at his best (unlike most other point guards).

[niko]

I would take peak lebron over aging jordan.. I cant believe some of you are acting like it's not a comparison.

Spoken like someone who never saw JOrdan play during that time. Jordan was a nasty mofo, and he never lost. He'd hit every big shot, make every big defensive play, ever big pass. So far in his career Lebron got swept in the finals and lost two series as a huge favorite and in both series was accused of quitting.

It does not compare.

[pete's montreux]

Mo was underrated in Milwaukee. I said that at the time, as well, and I was ecstatic when the Cavs made a move for him. Don't get me wrong, here... I'm not saying that Mo is a bad player... Not at all. He can be a really good scorer in the right system with the right kinds of players next to him.

I do think he needs to play with a real playmaker who can open up the floor, though. Understand, when I say playmaker, I'm not just talking about a guy who can get his own shot, but get shots for other guys. The kind of guy that can break down a defense and set up teammates in the spots that they like.

Your point guard is the absolute perfect example of what a real, great playmaker is. Rondo is a phenomenal player... One of my favorite players in the NBA not wearing wine-and-gold. He and Mo Williams are about as polar opposite as you can get. Yet, Mo is being asked by the current Cavs to do essentially what Rondo does for the Celtics. It is lunacy and, once again... I don't blame Mo.

He could go down to Miami right now and he would be a phenomenal role player next to James, Wade and Bosh... But he needs those kinds of guys to really be at his best (unlike most other point guards).

Do you agree that Mo maybe should've been given more opportunities?

[RedBlackAttack]

Spoken like someone who never saw JOrdan play during that time. Jordan was a nasty mofo, and he never lost. He'd hit every big shot, make every big defensive play, ever big pass. So far in his career Lebron got swept in the finals and lost two series as a huge favorite and in both series was accused of quitting.

It does not compare.
I think a lot of the people chiming in, as I said earlier, were not old enough and/or aware enough to really understand how unreal Jordan was, even in 1998. It is the closest thing to unbeatable as I have ever seen in any sport. He knew he was going to win, Bulls fans knew he was going to win, his opponents knew he was going to win, the opposing fans knew he was going to win and the commentators knew he was going to win.

Watching a bunch of clips or even full games now is not the same... You don't really understand unless you actually had a vested interest in the game and didn't know the outcome. When your favorite team went against those Bulls teams, it felt so completely helpless. And, it wasn't because of Pippen or Rodman or Kukoc or Harper....

You just knew that Jordan would always find a way to win for his team (if they needed it)... And he always did. That's what was so shocking about the '95 series against the Magic. He was rusty and he didn't find a way to win.

How did he respond? Leading his team to another dominant three-peat.

Bottom line: Unless you were a fan of a team that had to face Jordan every year, you don't really understand. I have absolutely no reason to prop up Jordan. Hell, I should really despise the guy for the way that he consistently broke my heart as a young NBA fan.

But, it is difficult to deny what is obvious and this is about as obvious as it gets...

Any version of Jordan (prior to his comeback with the Wiz) is better than any version of James.

[RedBlackAttack]

Do you agree that Mo maybe should've been given more opportunities?
I'm sort of split on that... Maybe it would have been better to be a bit more of a real 'team' rather than just James and everyone else. At the same time, Mo really didn't play well in either of his playoff appearances with the Cavs. He missed a lot of the shots that he made in the regular season. I'm not sure that the answer was to let him get the ball more.

Tough to say.

[Collie]

^ Biggest example of this was the 98 Finals. I really thought that there was gonna be a game 7, what with the Jazz up 5 (IIRC) in the final 40 seconds or so. Then MJ stole the ball from Malone, hit a difficult layup, then hit the game winner.

[RedBlackAttack]

^ Biggest example of this was the 98 Finals. I really thought that there was gonna be a game 7, what with the Jazz up 5 (IIRC) in the final 40 seconds or so. Then MJ stole the ball from Malone, hit a difficult layup, then hit the game winner.
And, maybe the most amazing thing about that was everyone expected it... Everyone was waiting for it... And then he did it. Par for the course, for Jordan.

[pete's montreux]

I'm sort of split on that... Maybe it would have been better to be a bit more of a real 'team' rather than just James and everyone else. At the same time, Mo really didn't play well in either of his playoff appearances with the Cavs. He missed a lot of the shots that he made in the regular season. I'm not sure that the answer was to let him get the ball more.

Tough to say.

That's basically what I'm getting at. I liked Mo a lot before like I said, but really, a LeBron team is probably better not running the LeBron offense. Plug anyone like Mo next to him and the offense is much more dangerous and unpredictable. The Spurs put on a defensive clinic, it was brutal to watch especially after what LBJ did against the Pistons only a few days before. And a lot of the problem was that he didn't have anyone to pass to.

[Indian guy]

Don't be dense. The strategy was very clear by the Cavaliers. Surround James with shooters and hustle guys that don't need the ball in their hands to have an impact.

Except NONE of these players with the exception of Parker are spot-up shooters. None of them with the exception of Varejao are hustlers. What they are is MULTIDIMENSIONAL basketball players. They can do a bit of everything. They are not specialists. To boil them down into "shooters and hustlers" is simply not true. Every team has players that can shoot, that doesn't mean that's all they can do. Having the ability to be effective without the ball does not mean you aren't good with it. The only players part of Cleveland's core rotation last season that fit your "shooters and hustlers" description are Parker and Varejao.


Mo Williams - Combo-guard (not a real PG). Great spot-up shooter.

There is no such thing as a "real PG". 90% of PGs are combo-guards. As far as Mo's shooting ability is concerned, what PG in the NBA can't spot-up? You're expected to be a SHOOTER when you're a guard. Cleveland acquired 'Mo in the HOPE that he could be LeBron's sidekick. Someone who could share the playmaking burden with him. And make no mistake, 'Mo handled the ball PLENTY. He averaged over 5 apg last season. You don't do that with LeBron supposedly dominating the offense. Mo's job was to be a mini-LeBron. Someone who'll do everything he did to a lesser degree. His job WAS NOT to stand in a corner and wait for LeBron to deliver him the ball. That would be Anthony Parker.


Anthony Parker

The only LeBron-specific player on the team. Someone you'd expect to fall apart w/o him.


Antawn Jamison - Stretch 4. Was brought in to stretch the floor and to open up lanes for James.

Complete and utter BS. Jamison was acquired because 1) the Cleveland coaching staff, rightfully, had no faith in Hickson as a championship-caliber starting big man and 2) they needed another scorer beside Shaq to open things up for him in the paint.

Getting Jamison had NOTHING to do with LeBron's style of play. Jamison's more of a scorer than shooter to begin with. He scores in a variety of ways AROUND THE BASKET and Cleveland certainly never tried to peg him into a spot-up shooter. He IS what you'd call a playmaker, but just not a very good one at this stage of his career. Plus a MAJOR defensive liability.


Anderson Varejao

A specialist. Only relevant if surrounded by good talent. Only such player on the team beside Parker.


Delonte West

A sort of do-it-all bench guy. Every team has one. Nothing LeBron-specific about him.


Boobie Gibson

A bench warmer. Not part of the core rotation. Every team has a shooting PG at the end of their bench.


Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Not even on the team anymore, so can't blame Cleveland's struggles on his inability to succeed w/o LeBron.


JJ Hickson

Can't shoot. Needs to be spoon-fed in order to score. Reliant on LeBron because he SUCKS, not because he was acquired in the HOPE that he would complement his style of play. It's a wonder the team was THAT successful with a starting PF that bad. Again, the wonder isn't that Cleveland sucks w/o LeBron, it's the fact that he had such incredible success with a team this untalented.


Jamario Moon

Not a shooter or even a scorer. Not a 'hustler' either. Only acquired for size on the perimeter, like you mentioned.


The Cavs could have easily added another playmaker somewhere along the way

What good would that have done? What Cleveland lacked was a legit 2nd option for LeBron. Some who could create for himself/others and be GOOD. That's what they lacked - TALENT/STAR POWER. Adding another "playmaker" who wasn't actually a star wouldn't have accomplished anything. What this team always lacked is TALENT. That's why LeBron bolted.


So, the Cavs went after guys who could stretch the floor, open up lanes and compliment James' ability to get to the hoop.

Except they only had 2 such players in the starting lineup - the same amount every other team in the league has. There was NOTHING out of the ordinary about Cleveland's core last season. They had shooters, creators, rebounders and finishers. Problem was, none of them were particularly talented. That was the ISSUE with that team.


If you don't think the Cavaliers were unique in the way that they built this team, name me one other team with as many shooters

Did Cleveland even have that many shooters? In the front-court, they had one - Big Z(bench player). Shaq, Hickson and Varejao can't shoot. At SF, again, no shooters. Moon is not a shooter. At shooting guard, they did have shooters. What a concept, right? :rolleyes:. At point guard, they had 'Mo. So basically, they had shooters at the guard position - like every other freaking team in the league.


Mo Williams IS NOT a playmaker. He is a great spot-up shooter.

'Mo played off the dribble ALL-THE-TIME in his Milwaukee days. He's a scorer first and foremost. A playmaker - someone who makes plays by himself.


Wade is a playmaker and I wouldn't exactly say that he and James have 'thrived' off of playing with one another.

They are the 1st and 3rd most productive players in the NBA. Miami has the 4th best record in the league. I would call that thriving.


James' numbers are down across the board and that includes FG%.

He has to share the ball with multiple stars now, of course his averages are down. As far as FG% is concerned, he's shooting 50%+ from December onwards. Just needed to get accustomed to his new teammates, that's all.


Listen... No one is saying that the Cavaliers with the exact same team as last year minus James would be world-beaters... They really needed a player with James' skillset to have real success. But they wouldn't be 8-33, either.

Just answer the question. Do they win more than 25 if they had retained Shaq and Z(but no Jamison for 50+ games)?

Shaq
Hickson
Moon
Parker
Mo

Bench: Z, Varejao, West, Gibson

This is still a bottom-5 team in the NBA, at the very least.


Scott was brought in to run a more up-tempo game

Scott only talks a good game. Historically his teams have always played at a slow pace. At the end of the day, Cleveland looks no different this season than last. Majority of the plays are pick-n-rolls and other basic stuff.


As much heat as Mike Brown took, I think that a team with limited talent like the Cavs have right now would be much better off in his defensive-minded, ugly-it-up style of basketball.

Yeah, that 1-13 record w/o LeBron the last 3 seasons sure proved Mike Brown's chops :rolleyes:


Like I said, this team would have really struggled with everyone back minus James, but they wouldn't be 8-33.

What would they be even if they were unrealistically healthy ALL freaking year? 11-30? 12-29? Still an AWFUL team. That's why we consider LeBron a miracle worker.

[magnax1]

Except he didn't fall apart. This is what I mean, it's a terrible double standard with no factual basis. Hell, LeBron's "falling apart" has been better than some of the elite players season averages, or close to it.

Your bias is obvious; if you think in 10 years Kobe only had 1 or 2 playoff series below his season averages, you are mistaken. Either way, that's not the issue. The issue is:

When comparing someone like LeBron and Wade, comparative stats vs common opponents are used (for the playoffs) instead of putting more emphasis on the fact that LeBron has made it further than Wade the past few years in the playoffs. When comparing LeBron to someone like Kobe, comparative stats are thrown out the window and only team success is used. Again, you can't have it both ways. LeBron has been the best playoff performer in the league for a few years now.

It's not just the regular season; I really don't think anyone could convince themselves that Wade, Durant, or Kobe would have done any better in LeBron's position on that team, or with equivalent talent.
22-7-7 on 36% 5.8 to/g
26.7-6-7.5 35% 5.3 to/g
24.3-9-7 44% 4.5 to/g
Those are only the worst of the worst, but those are three series that they could've won if not for Lebron's poor play. You don't win with series like that, and Kobe's not excluded, his series vs Boston in 08 is why they didn't win, and 04 vs Detroit (there were other reasons in that series too though)
Since 06 the difference between Lebron is Kobe is that Kobe has only thrown up one series like that, only 1/5 years he's put them out of contention

[Simple Jack]

22-7-7 on 36% 5.8 to/g
26.7-6-7.5 35% 5.3 to/g
24.3-9-7 44% 4.5 to/g
Those are only the worst of the worst, but those are three series that they could've won if not for Lebron's poor play. You don't win with series like that, and Kobe's not excluded, his series vs Boston in 08 is why they didn't win, and 04 vs Detroit (there were other reasons in that series too though)
Since 06 the difference between Lebron is Kobe is that Kobe has only thrown up one series like that, only 1/5 years he's put them out of contention

Which series are you thinking about with Kobe?

24 9 7 on 44% is hardly bad. I wouldn't even call it subpar. The other two I agree with.

This doesn't need to turn into another conversation about the lack of talent the Cavaliers had, but you make no mention of it and how it directly impacted LeBron's play.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm not going to address every single point, indianguy, because we have been over all of this several times and, at some point, the best thing would probably be to just agree to disagree.

However, how can you not even acknowledge that the Cavs made a clear effort to surround James with shooters? You can't even hedge on that obvious point? What other team in the NBA is capable of surrounding their star with four other shooters at the same time?

The Cavs had the option of going...

Mo Williams
Daniel Gibson or Anthony Parker
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Big Z

To say that they didn't have any more shooters than the average team in the league is nonsense. Mo, Parker, Gibson, Z and Jamison are all excellent spot-up guys for their positions. And, Gibson got PLENTY of burn while Mo was injured and he actually performed really well.

Actually, I think he led the NBA in 3-point % for a good part of the season (and with a good amount of attempts, too).

[magnax1]

Which series are you thinking about with Kobe?

24 9 7 on 44% is hardly bad. I wouldn't even call it subpar. The other two I agree with.

This doesn't need to turn into another conversation about the lack of talent the Cavaliers had, but you make no mention of it and how it directly impacted LeBron's play.
I was talking about the 08 series vs Boston as Kobe's bad series. There were a couple games where he was okay, but both him and Pau were pretty pathetic overall in that series.
And as for Lebron's team, he/Coach brown having him pound the ball for 18/24 seconds was a huge part of the team playing poorly in the playoffs. Who evers fault it is I don't know, but nobody is going to play well with one guy dominating the ball that much. Really, that team wasn't that bad, people are over reacting to how badly they are playing this year and saying that the Cavs were horrible, which just isn't true.
and 24 9 7 is subpar for a superstar. It isn't going to get a win vs. a top tier team.

[cp3mvp2011]

MJ /Bird/Magic /Shaq/Wilt/Jabbar/Russell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LBJ :banana:

[Simple Jack]

I was talking about the 08 series vs Boston as Kobe's bad series. There were a couple games where he was okay, but both him and Pau were pretty pathetic overall in that series.
And as for Lebron's team, he/Coach brown having him pound the ball for 18/24 seconds was a huge part of the team playing poorly in the playoffs. Who evers fault it is I don't know, but nobody is going to play well with one guy dominating the ball that much. Really, that team wasn't that bad, people are over reacting to how badly they are playing this year and saying that the Cavs were horrible, which just isn't true.
and 24 9 7 is subpar for a superstar. It isn't going to get a win vs. a top tier team.

The same team that went 1-13 without him past 3 years? Please, it's over done. You guys need to give it up.

If 24 9 7 is subpar, average must be 30 8 8. You're holding him to too high of a standard.

What were Kobe's averages vs OKC this past year? Or vs the Celtics in the finals this year? Or vs Detroit?


Edit:
Kobe vs OKC
23.5 points on 40.8% FG///4 reb//4 ast//3.5 TO's a game.

It's funny you didn't even mention that series. If 24 9 7 is subpar, what is 23 4 4?

[Walduś]

MJ /Bird/Magic /Shaq/Wilt/Jabbar/Russell/hakeem/pippen/kobe/west/duncan/kg/malone/wade/howard/robinson/drexler/erving/ewing/stockton/robertson/mikan/barry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LBJ :banana:fixed

[knightfall88]

My eyes have rolled so far back at the thought there could even be a debate on who is the better player between MJ and Lebron.

[Jacks3]

He's most certainly not a better scorer or defender. Not even close. Fail.
Uh, yes he is. We're talking about 96-98 Jordan. He was getting by on his rep defensively and his efficiency paled in comparison to LeBron.

[Jacks3]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.

I don't care what anyone says, put ANY version of Jordan on the '09 Cavs and I wouldn't bet on him winning 66 games with that roster (though come playoff time I'd want MJ). Would need to see it to believe it. As for original question, '96 MJ > '08 LeBron but '09 and '10 LeBron > '97 and '98 MJ. The whole LeBron quitting thing did put a damper on his last year, but MJ has done similar things in the 80s (seen him quit vs. the Pistons in '89 I think it was).


Heat were 9-8 to start the season. How can you deny there wasn't a period of adjustment? Aside from LeBron, Wade and Bosh also had to find their places in an entirely new roster too. Look what they've done since, 21-3 when LeBron's played. And despite the poor start, the Heat's SRS this season is higher than the Cavs last year.
Great post.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Uh, yes he is. We're talking about 96-98 Jordan. He was getting by on his rep defensively and his efficiency paled in comparison to LeBron.

You're a joke. No guard defender aside from Payton impacted games defensively as much as Jordan. A couple of other SG's were perhaps in his class in terms of man-to-man defense (most notably Eddie Jones), but none were even in his universe as a team/help defender, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact. Jordan from '96-'98 had a much larger defensive impact on games than Lebron - it's not close at all.

About Lebron's "efficiency," keep in mind that Lebron wouldn't be getting the calls he does now back then; this would affect his entire game (as well as his TEE-EHS percentage). Even so, MJ shot 50% in '96 and 49% in '97 (and 48.5% after the first 15 games of the '98 season after adjusting to a torn ligament and cracked knuckle on the index finger of his shooting hand). So I don't see how his efficiency "pales" in comparison to Lebron's. The notion that Lebron is a better scorer than a guy who had five 40+ point games in a ~2 week (10 game) span at age 35 with a bad finger, and who was averaging 32 pg/48% FG in the '98 playoffs up until the Finals (again, at age 35) is a joke.

[tpols]

You're a joke. No guard defender aside from Payton impacted games defensively as much as Jordan. A couple of other SG's were perhaps in his class in terms of man-to-man defense (most notably Eddie Jones), but none were even in his universe as a team/help defender, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact. Jordan from '96-'98 had a much larger defensive impact on games than Lebron - it's not close at all.

About Lebron's "efficiency," keep in mind that Lebron wouldn't be getting the calls he does now back then; this would affect his entire game (as well as his TEE-EHS percentage). Even so, MJ shot 50% in '96 and 49% in '97 (and 48.5% after the first 15 games of the '98 season after adjusting to a torn ligament and cracked knuckle on the index finger of his shooting hand). So I don't see how his efficiency "pales" in comparison to Lebron's. The notion that Lebron is a better scorer than a guy who had five 40+ point games in a ~2 week (10 game) span at age 35 with a bad finger, and who was averaging 32 pg/48% FG in the '98 playoffs up until the Finals (again, at age 35) is a joke.
Know whats funny bro.. the only reason you won't admit peak lebron was as dominant/impactful as an older jordan is because kobe has been rated as an equal or superior to lebron in the past few years(especially in the playoffs), which makes kobe look a lot closer to jordan than you're comfortable with.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Know whats funny bro.. the only reason you won't admit peak lebron was as dominant/impactful as an older jordan is because kobe has been rated as an equal or superior to lebron in the past few years(especially in the playoffs), which makes kobe look a lot closer to jordan than you're comfortable with.

No bro, that's actually not why. '96 and '97 Jordan is superior to any version of Kobe just like he's superior to Lebron. '98 is the only question, really (MJ at age 35).

[Jacks3]

You're a joke. No guard defender aside from Payton impacted games defensively as much as Jordan. A couple of other SG's were perhaps in his class in terms of man-to-man defense (most notably Eddie Jones), but none were even in his universe as a team/help defender, and team/help defense is the largest component of defensive impact. Jordan from '96-'98 had a much larger defensive impact on games than Lebron - it's not close at all.

About Lebron's "efficiency," keep in mind that Lebron wouldn't be getting the calls he does now back then; this would affect his entire game (as well as his TEE-EHS percentage). Even so, MJ shot 50% in '96 and 49% in '97 (and 48.5% after the first 15 games of the '98 season after adjusting to a torn ligament and cracked knuckle on the index finger of his shooting hand). So I don't see how his efficiency "pales" in comparison to Lebron's. The notion that Lebron is a better scorer than a guy who had five 40+ point games in a ~2 week (10 game) span at age 35 with a bad finger, and who was averaging 32 pg/48% FG in the '98 playoffs up until the Finals (again, at age 35) is a joke.
You're the joke. Please stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Not even close? Really? You're a ****ing moron. The Cavs have completely fallen off the map defensively this year without LBJ. The Heat have become a top 3 defensive team with him even with a shitty front-court and little defenive talent.. I guess that's just a coincidence huh? Dumass.:roll:
Know what's funny? The Bulls were actually better defensively after Jordan's 1st retirement and that was prime Jordan, and you're telling it's not even close with 96-98 Jordan, who wasn't even close to the defender 89-93 Jordan was?
LMAO.

Look at their TS% numbers. Lebron's are easily better especially in comparison to 97 and 98 Jordan. The rule changes have very little to do it you clown. Nobody in that era is stopping LBJ from getting to the basket.

Lebron's 29.7 on 60.4% TS> anything 96-98 Jordan did as a scorer.

LeBron's 2009 post-season> any post-season Jordan had from 96-98.

LeBron is easily superior.

[Jacks3]

'96 and '97 Jordan is superior to any version of Kobe just like he's superior to Lebron.
lol @ 96/97 Jordan being superior to 09/2010 LeBron.

Get Jordan's balls out of your mouth. SMH.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ "the rule changes have very little to do with it." :oldlol: Yeah, I'm sure that the 2-3 fewer FT's he'd get as well as all the shots inside that he'd miss because he DIDN'T get a whistle (which would factor into his FG% and hence TS%), plus the fact that he'd have to adjust his playing style in light of the different rules (e.g., he'd be more hesitant to drive if he weren't being gifted calls), would have no effect at all on his TS%. You're kidding yourself if you think a comparatively limited scorer like Lebron is averaging 29-30+ ppg on 60% TS in '96-'98. Get real.

27-29 ppg on 56-58% TS? Sure.

[cp3mvp2011]

You're the joke. Please stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Not even close? Really? You're a ****ing moron. The Cavs have completely fallen off the map defensively this year without LBJ. The Heat have become a top 3 defensive team with him even with a shitty front-court and little defenive talent.. I guess that's just a coincidence huh? Dumass.:roll:
Know what's funny? The Bulls were actually better defensively after Jordan's 1st retirement and that was prime Jordan, and you're telling it's not even close with 96-98 Jordan, who wasn't even close to the defender 89-93 Jordan was?
LMAO.

Look at their TS% numbers. Lebron's are easily better especially in comparison to 97 and 98 Jordan. The rule changes have very little to do it you clown. Nobody in that era is stopping LBJ from getting to the basket.

Lebron's 29.7 on 60.4% TS> anything 96-98 Jordan did as a scorer.

LeBron's 2009 post-season> any post-season Jordan had from 96-98.

LeBron is easily superior.

JORDAN PLAY AGAINST TOUGH DEFENCE WHILE LBJ PLAY AGAINST POOR DEFENCE ERA :no:

[cp3mvp2011]

lol @ 96/97 Jordan being superior to 09/2010 LeBron.

Get Jordan's balls out of your mouth. SMH.

1996-98 TEAM DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2010 TEAM DEFENCE :confusedshrug:

[Collie]

JAcks3 was 8 years old by the time Jordan won his last championship. Don't talk about stuff you never saw.

[alenleomessi]

LeBron would be better, but MJ would still win it no matter where Lebron plays

[97 bulls]

Id love to see what lebrons eff%, ts%, per, and any other useless stat % would be if he had to go against centers like jordan back in the 90s.

And let's not forget that jordan really should've won 3 straight mvps from 96-98. To go along with leading a team that basically would've avg 70 wins a season for 3 straight seasons. Had pippen not missed 38 games in 98, thhe bulls would've won 70 that yr too. Even though they finished with 62 wins which tied for the best record.

Oh well, I guess some people are never satisfied

[97 bulls]

lol @ 96/97 Jordan being superior to 09/2010 LeBron.

Get Jordan's balls out of your mouth. SMH.
If its true that you were 8 during 98, how can you comment on this? Youe were friggn 8

[cp3mvp2011]

LeBron would be better, but MJ would still win it no matter where Lebron plays

no way james could better than mike ( 96-98 ):banana:

[Ne 1]

Wow great posts from RedBlackAttack, 97 bulls, tpols and Alhazred.

Ether for the LeBron apologists.

:applause:

[t-rex]

08-10 LeBron > 96-98 Jordan

89-92 Jordan > 08-10 LeBron

that is all.


You are exactly right.

[guy]

Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron in his last three years there. Lets not act like the health of any of these players or "Z" is making a big difference. I thought they would get 35-40 wins without him but that was giving his cast way too much credit. A player being worth literally 40 wins to a team? Didn't think that was possible.

Cavs right now have the biggest one season SRS swing in history. Let that sink in...we're actually seeing the biggest single season falloff of any team...ever. And the only constant, the only real reason is LeBron leaving. Shaq's not there? They won 66 before they signed him. Mo Williams has been injured? They were 11-1 without him last year when LeBron was playing. Jamison wasn't even there in '09 and most of '10 but has been a part of this roster from the start. Delonte West is gone? They were 33-7 without him in the last two years. Z is gone? Wasn't he traded mid season and then not getting PT once they got him back? No matter what way you look at it, the only constant was LeBron.


Thats not really a fair way of looking at it. Yes, without Shaq, West, and Z, the Cavs were still having great records. Thats mainly because everyone, mainly Lebron, was stepping up more when those guys were out to make up for their absence. There absences wasn't really felt as much because they had Lebron. Take Lebron off the team though and it is. Does anyone in their right actually think the Cavs wouldn't be better then they are now if they had West, Shaq, and Z still? Not to mention a healthier Andy, Gibson, Parker, and Moon? No doubt that by far the biggest reason for the dropoff is cause of Lebron. But losing those other guys and all their injuries definitely have a huge impact on what could have been as well. I could see them winning 30-40 games if Lebron was the only difference in this team. But this team has gone through so many changes that they are almost like a completely different team.

[Simple Jack]

Thats not really a fair way of looking at it. Yes, without Shaq, West, and Z, the Cavs were still having great records. Thats mainly because everyone, mainly Lebron, was stepping up more when those guys were out to make up for their absence. There absences wasn't really felt as much because they had Lebron. Take Lebron off the team though and it is. Does anyone in their right actually think the Cavs wouldn't be better then they are now if they had West, Shaq, and Z still? Not to mention a healthier Andy, Gibson, Parker, and Moon? No doubt that by far the biggest reason for the dropoff is cause of Lebron. But losing those other guys and all their injuries definitely have a huge impact on what could have been as well. I could see them winning 30-40 games if Lebron was the only difference in this team. But this team has gone through so many changes that they are almost like a completely different team.

Does anyone really think the Cavaliers wouldn't win 50+ games with LeBron this season?

[Indian guy]

Yeah, I'm sure that the 2-3 fewer FT's he'd get

I don't see why his FTA would dip at all. MJ had no trouble averaging double-digit FTA in the 80's when he relentlessly attacked the basket. The rules for what actually qualifies as a foul in the paint haven't changed at all over the years. It's not like athletic swingmen weren't averaging high amount of FTA even prior to the rule change. AI, Kobe, T-Mac and Pierce had no trouble averaging around 10 FTA during the early 00's, arguably the toughest defensive period in NBA history. There's absolutely no reason to believe LeBron's FTA would decrease if he played pre-04-05.


You're kidding yourself if you think a comparatively limited scorer like Lebron is averaging 29-30+ ppg on 60% TS in '96-'98.

LeBron's the ONLY one doing it today as well. In a league loaded with perimeter stars. That tells you more about his ability than anything about the rules. The league averaged 99.5 ppg on 46% shooting back in '96. 100 ppg on 46% in 2010. The game hasn't changed much. MJ couldn't do 30 ppg on 60%+ TS% from 96-98 because he was 33-35 years old and nowhere near the slasher+finisher he was in his earlier days, or LeBron is now.

[magnax1]

The same team that went 1-13 without him past 3 years? Please, it's over done. You guys need to give it up.

If 24 9 7 is subpar, average must be 30 8 8. You're holding him to too high of a standard.

What were Kobe's averages vs OKC this past year? Or vs the Celtics in the finals this year? Or vs Detroit?


Edit:
Kobe vs OKC
23.5 points on 40.8% FG///4 reb//4 ast//3.5 TO's a game.

It's funny you didn't even mention that series. If 24 9 7 is subpar, what is 23 4 4?
statistics aren't the whole story. Kobe made a difference in that series because he stopped Westbrook from tearing them apart. It was subpar either way, but I'm not even talking about Kobe, I'm talking about Lebron. And yeah, 30-7-7 is average for Lebron, 24-9-7 is subpar.
And really, this is not the same team that Lebron had the past two years. Shaq and Delonte are gone, Mo has been injured and is shooting extremely low #s, Varajeo was out for a while. They've been playing guys like Joey Graham, Christian Eyenga, Alonzo Gee, and Manny Harris, basically four D-league guys big minutes. This isn't the same team that won 60 games minus Lebron. This is basically the team that won 44 games or whatever it was minus Lebron.

[ginobli2311]

statistics aren't the whole story. Kobe made a difference in that series because he stopped Westbrook from tearing them apart. It was subpar either way, but I'm not even talking about Kobe, I'm talking about Lebron. And yeah, 30-7-7 is average for Lebron, 24-9-7 is subpar.
And really, this is not the same team that Lebron had the past two years. Shaq and Delonte are gone, Mo has been injured and is shooting extremely low #s, Varajeo was out for a while. They've been playing guys like Joey Graham, Christian Eyenga, Alonzo Gee, and Manny Harris, basically four D-league guys big minutes. This isn't the same team that won 60 games minus Lebron. This is basically the team that won 44 games or whatever it was minus Lebron.

you can't reference kobe's defense and then ignore lebron's. not only is lebron a far superior defender at this pint, but lebron's defense in the celtic series was amazing. he shut down paul pierce and played the passing lanes very well. he was all over the floor in pretty much every game other than game 5.

this cavs team is not the same....no doubt. but look. look what lebron did tonight with the heat team around him. lebron has an uncanny ability to win games with little to no help. he did it in cleveland and he could do it other places. its why the cavs didn't fall off much at all last year when west/z/shaq all missed a ton of games. cavs also only had jamison for 25 games and mike brown was simply a poor coach.

does this mean lebron is the best player ever? hardly. but i think lebron might be the best perimeter player for leading an average squad to regular and post season success. look what lebron did from 06 to 10 with those teams. its remarkable in my opinion. just remarkable.

[magnax1]

you can't reference kobe's defense and then ignore lebron's. not only is lebron a far superior defender at this pint, but lebron's defense in the celtic series was amazing. he shut down paul pierce and played the passing lanes very well. he was all over the floor in pretty much every game other than game 5.
I don't really agree about Lebron's defense. This year he's been better, but he's a highlight defender and gives very little real impact on the defensive end of the game. This year for periods he's been a real DPOTY type defender, but it's still very inconsistent. I'm sure he won't be inconsistent with it in the playoffs though.


this cavs team is not the same....no doubt. but look. look what lebron did tonight with the heat team around him. lebron has an uncanny ability to win games with little to no help. he did it in cleveland and he could do it other places. its why the cavs didn't fall off much at all last year when west/z/shaq all missed a ton of games. cavs also only had jamison for 25 games and mike brown was simply a poor coach.
Agreed, though Brown wasn't a poor coach on the defensive end, and that was a pretty huge part of them winning 60+ games. Lebron wasn't the guy that made them a top 5 defense.

does this mean lebron is the best player ever? hardly. but i think lebron might be the best perimeter player for leading an average squad to regular and post season success. look what lebron did from 06 to 10 with those teams. its remarkable in my opinion. just remarkable.
While I don't really agree, there is no arguing that what he did was pretty great. He was definitely MVP that last two seasons, but I don't know that he was top 10 all time peak like people have been saying.

[ginobli2311]

I don't really agree about Lebron's defense. This year he's been better, but he's a highlight defender and gives very little real impact on the defensive end of the game. This year for periods he's been a real DPOTY type defender, but it's still very inconsistent. I'm sure he won't be inconsistent with it in the playoffs though.


Agreed, though Brown wasn't a poor coach on the defensive end, and that was a pretty huge part of them winning 60+ games. Lebron wasn't the guy that made them a top 5 defense.

While I don't really agree, there is no arguing that what he did was pretty great. He was definitely MVP that last two seasons, but I don't know that he was top 10 all time peak like people have been saying.

agree to disagree about lebron's defense. he's far more than a highlight defender. i feel that is a common misconception about lebron for the last few years. he's a very good team defender and gives a lot of effort on that end consistently. certainly one of the very best perimeter defenders of the last 5 years.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You're the joke. Please stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Not even close? Really? You're a ****ing moron. The Cavs have completely fallen off the map defensively this year without LBJ. The Heat have become a top 3 defensive team with him even with a shitty front-court and little defenive talent.

The Heat are a top 5 defensive team, they were top 6 last year without Lebron. Regarding Cleveland, there's no doubt that Lebron made an impact defensively, but I don't think that's the biggest reason for their decline defensively.

Mike Brown was a defensive-minded coach and they played a slower, more defensive-oriented style. In '09 and '10, they were among the 5 slowest paced teams in the league, this year, they play at the 11th fastest pace.

Also, losing Shaq and Z's size and rebounding has probably hurt their defense and now Varejao is injured and he was a great rebounder as well as an all-defensive second team player.

Other than that, I don't think they're playing nearly as hard as they did when Lebron was there because they don't have as much to play for.

Mo's decline this season has to be because of more than Lebron not being around, this is obvious just by looking at his last season in Milwaukee, his 2 seasons with Lebron and this season.

2008 w/o Lebron- 17.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3 TO, 1.3 spg, 48 FG%, 56.6 TS%
2009- 17.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.1 apg, 2.2 TO, 0.9 spg, 46.7 FG%, 58.8 TS%
2010- 15.8 ppg, 3 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.5 TO, 1 spg, 44.2 FG%, 58 TS%
2011- 13.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 7.1 apg, 2.9 TO, 0.9 spg, 38.7 FG%, 47.2 TS%

With that being said, Lebron really carried their offense and it's pretty incredible what he did with that team, but their defensive decline has more to do with Mike Brown leaving and Cleveland's new style, a loss of size and a lack of effort, IMO.

[Simple Jack]

statistics aren't the whole story. Kobe made a difference in that series because he stopped Westbrook from tearing them apart. It was subpar either way, but I'm not even talking about Kobe, I'm talking about Lebron. And yeah, 30-7-7 is average for Lebron, 24-9-7 is subpar.
And really, this is not the same team that Lebron had the past two years. Shaq and Delonte are gone, Mo has been injured and is shooting extremely low #s, Varajeo was out for a while. They've been playing guys like Joey Graham, Christian Eyenga, Alonzo Gee, and Manny Harris, basically four D-league guys big minutes. This isn't the same team that won 60 games minus Lebron. This is basically the team that won 44 games or whatever it was minus Lebron.

Once again proving you hold LeBron to a much higher standard than other players. It's evident you have a double standard. Statistics seemed to be the whole story when you mentioned LeBron's stats in his "sub par series". You even went as far as to simply state his numbers and say they were subpar (in this post as well) ignoring things like defense that you use to defend Kobe's poor performances.

As for the Cavaliers, with Varejao and Mo healthy, they were on a terrible pace of wins. The missing pieces went missing last year and the team didn't miss a step. Again, I ask, how many wins do you think the Cavaliers have this year had LeBron stayed on the team?

[magnax1]

Once again proving you hold LeBron to a much higher standard than other players. It's evident you have a double standard. Statistics seemed to be the whole story when you mentioned LeBron's stats in his "sub par series". You even went as far as to simply state his numbers and say they were subpar (in this post as well) ignoring things like defense that you use to defend Kobe's poor performances.

As for the Cavaliers, with Varejao and Mo healthy, they were on a terrible pace of wins. The missing pieces went missing last year and the team didn't miss a step. Again, I ask, how many wins do you think the Cavaliers have this year had LeBron stayed on the team?
Like I said, this is about as talented as the 08 team, so probably 45-50 wins. He made his biggest improvements in 09, so they'd probably win a bit more then the 08 team.
and I said Kobe's performance was subpar too. I don't get how that's a double standard.

[Simple Jack]

Like I said, this is about as talented as the 08 team, so probably 45-50 wins. He made his biggest improvements in 09, so they'd probably win a bit more then the 08 team.
and I said Kobe's performance was subpar too. I don't get how that's a double standard.

Ok, so Kobe has 3 sub-par series that we've mentioned. LeBron has 3 as well. This is why the debate started; because you insinuated that LeBron wasn't that great of a playoff performance as evident by the frequency of his "bad" series'.

[magnax1]

Ok, so Kobe has 3 sub-par series that we've mentioned. LeBron has 3 as well. This is why the debate started; because you insinuated that LeBron wasn't that great of a playoff performance as evident by the frequency of his "bad" series'.
Where did you get three for Kobe? 08 Boston for Kobe, 08 Celtics, 07 Spurs, and 10 Celtics for Lebron from 05-10. I said Lebron had three series that his team lost because of him, and Kobe had one. That's still true.

[Simple Jack]

Where did you get three for Kobe? 08 Boston for Kobe, 08 Celtics, 07 Spurs, and 10 Celtics for Lebron from 05-10. I said Lebron had three series that his team lost because of him, and Kobe had one. That's still true.

Detroit? OKC this past year and Celtics in 08. That's 3.

[magnax1]

Detroit? OKC this past year and Celtics in 08. That's 3.
Detroit happened before Lebron made the playoffs. If you want to you could get quite a few of Kobe series from 00-02 but considering he wasn't the same player, but you'd be getting twice as large of a sample size at that point. That's not really fair at all. And OKC isn't as bad as the ones I listed for Lebron. I could probably get 2 or 3 more series as bad as that from Lebron.