If Len Bias hadn

[jstern]

Think about it. Every random action that a person makes, like let say me raising my arm right now, creates a totally different path for the rest of my life that affects every person that I come in contact with, which affects the whole world. So if Len Bias hadn

[PurpleChuck]

:eek: So deep...

[Lebron23]

He could have been Jordan's greatest rival in the Eastern Conference in the 1990's.

[jstern]

:eek: So deep...

Thanks, I thought it would get ridicule.


He could have been Jordan's greatest rival in the Eastern Conference in the 1990's.

I'm curious about that. He was before my time, but the thing that kind of holds him back for me is the fact that he died of a drug overdose. Made me question like his will power, work ethic, etc. Just kinds of paints a picture that I can't image a GOAT to be like. But a few hours ago I finally saw highlights of his, very impressive athlete.

[Faberg]

If he was still alive, the Celtics wouldn't have had an opportunity to draft Paul Pierce.

[PurpleChuck]

Thanks, I thought it would get ridicule.
No way, it's not trolling or anything. It's really a pretty thought provoking idea.

[ashbelly]

jordan was owning him in college, it wouldn't be any different in the nba. Also barkley/Shawn kemp are "len bias" so i don't think him staying alive could've denied us of any special talents.

[Cermet]

Yes...WHAT IF ??? If your grandmother had balls she would be your grandfather.. the wonders of WHAT IF?

[Psileas]

Think about it. Every random action that a person makes, like let say me raising my arm right now, creates a totally different path for the rest of my life that affects every person that I come in contact with, which affects the whole world. So if Len Bias hadn’t died, then life would have proceeded in a completely different manner. Maybe a guy instead of stopping to see the breaking news would have driven his car 5 minutes earlier, and then gotten to a car accident and died, which in turn would have completely changed the path of everyone in his funeral, etc. A million different paths, multiplied by every person in the world.

The only analogy I can think right now is, think of a straight line that goes out a mile out. Raise that line + .0001 degree and that line will be at a totally different spot. That line is changed forever.

So it’s the only positive that I can think of, but then again, who knows what other stars we could have had now.

:hammerhead:

Then again, it could have been worse. Think of the consequences that brought Bias' parents together or their ancestors, and what would change if things turned a little different. Maybe if that famous butterfly, didn't open its wings...


jordan was owning him in college, it wouldn't be any different in the nba. Also barkley/Shawn kemp are "len bias" so i don't think him staying alive could've denied us of any special talents.

Yeah? Much like Jordan, never winning an NCAA title as the main man of his team was a trend that continued in the NBA? Imagine Jordan being in Bias' place: People like ashbelly would claim "he didn't win anything on his own in the NCAA, he wouldn't be any different in the NBA".
And Bias was nothing like Kemp. Bias had one of the sweetest shots and mid-range games in the NCAA, worlds better than Kemp (and Barkley) ever had. On the other hand, he wasn't as good a rebounder as them, being much more of an athletic SF. He was more like a more complete James Worthy or a LeBron James with worse passing and better shooting.

[824]

Yes, that is how life works..

[NoName22]

I understand your point.

See... If you didn't make this thread, you wouldn't have gotten this one star.

[Ne 1]

If not for the deaths of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis, Boston could have owned 1990s.

[Rake2204]

Or, if Bias had lived, perhaps now there would be stars even greater than Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant, LeBron James, and Kobe Bryant. Things could have been ten times awesomer.

[Miserio]

If he was still alive, the Celtics wouldn't have had an opportunity to draft Paul Pierce.
Thank god

[Crown&Coke]

Original POV, but how does Len Bias affect Griffin and KD becoming stars? They didn't start concentrating on ball because Len Bias passed away? They had the drive and determination to make it, and they did?

I think Len Bias would have shaped the NBA into something different from what it is today, but I don't think he would have changed individuals? It aint like Griffin would have been like "oh snap, Len Bias is so awesome I'm gonna play football instead.."

But there is no telling how Bias would have done in the NBA. Ed O'bannon was the next great thing once too coming out of college. You never know until they lace em up on the big stage.

I don't totally get the correlation between Len playing for the Celtics changing the course of several young star's individual talents, other than the "butterfly effect" that causes ripples in time/space

[steve]

Yeah? Much like Jordan, never winning an NCAA title as the main man of his team was a trend that continued in the NBA? Imagine Jordan being in Bias' place: People like ashbelly would claim "he didn't win anything on his own in the NCAA, he wouldn't be any different in the NBA".
And Bias was nothing like Kemp. Bias had one of the sweetest shots and mid-range games in the NCAA, worlds better than Kemp (and Barkley) ever had. On the other hand, he wasn't as good a rebounder as them, being much more of an athletic SF. He was more like a more complete James Worthy or a LeBron James with worse passing and better shooting.
Not to mention it's a fairly inaccurate statement. They really only played against each other for one season (if that's what you want to call, even though it was pretty rare for them to actually be matched up against one another), considering that Bias wasn't a starter his freshman year.

So, going by the only season they were both starters in college basketball at the same time, Jordan put up 23 points on 60% shooting adding 7.5 boards and 2.5 assists with 2.5 turnovers over two games (not exactly a healthy sample size either). While Bias put up 21 points per game on 61% shooting adding 3 rebounds and 1 assist with 1.5 turnovers. Not exactly a huge discrepancy, especially when you factor in Bias was a still developing under recruited player and Jordan was in the middle of his player of the year campaign. Now, UNC won both those games handily, but that had more to do with their individual running mates. UNC boasted Senior Sam Perkins (All-American, essentially a lottery pick in the '84 draft), Brad Daughtery (future number 1 overall pick), and freshman Kenny Smith (five star recruit, future lottery pick), which is a lot of blue chip talent. The best players on Maryland aside from Bias that season were Adrian Branch and Ben Coleman, both solid college players, but both were 2nd round picks and never even made a first team All ACC.

[Niquesports]

Original POV, but how does Len Bias affect Griffin and KD becoming stars? They didn't start concentrating on ball because Len Bias passed away? They had the drive and determination to make it, and they did?

I think Len Bias would have shaped the NBA into something different from what it is today, but I don't think he would have changed individuals? It aint like Griffin would have been like "oh snap, Len Bias is so awesome I'm gonna play football instead.."

But there is no telling how Bias would have done in the NBA. Ed O'bannon was the next great thing once too coming out of college. You never know until they lace em up on the big stage.

I don't totally get the correlation between Len playing for the Celtics changing the course of several young star's individual talents, other than the "butterfly effect" that causes ripples in time/space


Im not sure what the op meant however this is who I look at it. Lenny's death made people more aware of the trappings in society for star athelets. After Lenny died many coaches from pee wee to pro began to educate the young players more on these trappings. For all accounts of everyone I know and from people that knew Lenny that was a one night gone wrong event.

IF you are too yooung to have seen Lenny play think of a Blake Griffin with a more polished mid range game. Think of how much better Lebron would be if he was to bring his game into the mid-range area.True over all MJ was better than Lenny in school but he sure wasn't "killing" maybe poor choice of words, him.Can anyone imaginehow much influence Brid and that Celtic mystic could have helped develop Lenny to becoming an even better player. YEs I would say he would have been a step above Barkley same athletic skills yet lenny was a much more condtioned player.

[VanillaThunder]

they already made this movie.. it was called the butterfly effect and it got mixed reviews lol

[Niquesports]

Not to mention it's a fairly inaccurate statement. They really only played against each other for one season (if that's what you want to call, even though it was pretty rare for them to actually be matched up against one another), considering that Bias wasn't a starter his freshman year.

So, going by the only season they were both starters in college basketball at the same time, Jordan put up 23 points on 60% shooting adding 7.5 boards and 2.5 assists with 2.5 turnovers over two games (not exactly a healthy sample size either). While Bias put up 21 points per game on 61% shooting adding 3 rebounds and 1 assist with 1.5 turnovers. Not exactly a huge discrepancy, especially when you factor in Bias was a still developing under recruited player and Jordan was in the middle of his player of the year campaign. Now, UNC won both those games handily, but that had more to do with their individual running mates. UNC boasted Senior Sam Perkins (All-American, essentially a lottery pick in the '84 draft), Brad Daughtery (future number 1 overall pick), and freshman Kenny Smith (five star recruit, future lottery pick), which is a lot of blue chip talent. The best players on Maryland aside from Bias that season were Adrian Branch and Ben Coleman, both solid college players, but both were 2nd round picks and never even made a first team All ACC.


I would say that year Branch was as good as Brad.,and Keith Gatlin the PG was as good as a Freshman Smith. Also There is an old story the only person that can keep Jordan under 25 pt was Dean Smith.That being said As a Soph. people were already talking about Lenny's upside.IF Im not mistaken AB was All ACC as a Freshman and became the team leader . By Lenny's second year he took that title over.The thing with Lenny was that he got better every year since the 8th grade.

[tomtucker]

what does Len Bias have to do with Durant?

[niko]

Deep. Made no sense, and i see absolutely no correlation in your cause and affect. But still deep...

[steve]

I would say that year Branch was as good as Brad.,and Keith Gatlin the PG was as good as a Freshman Smith. Also There is an old story the only person that can keep Jordan under 25 pt was Dean Smith.That being said As a Soph. people were already talking about Lenny's upside.IF Im not mistaken AB was All ACC as a Freshman and became the team leader . By Lenny's second year he took that title over.The thing with Lenny was that he got better every year since the 8th grade.
Although that was a weird down year for Branch, and UNC still had Perkins, which no one on Maryland could really account for. And yeah, people were talking about Bias' upside because he made a huge jump between freshman and sophomore years (which is also why I take exception to the OP questioning Bias' work ethic, judgment, yeah, maybe, but you can't question Bias' work ethic). My point was that the difference between UNC and Maryland that year was a pretty big gap, but however you want to shake it, Jordan didn't exactly dominate Bias (although again, it's not like they were ever directly going at each other).

[FindingTim]

Just watched some highlights (vs Mark Price); Bias looked pretty good. He didn't look top 10 all-time good, but definitely had superstar potential. Lewis looked damn good too.

From what I saw, Bias looked like a Malone/Kemp/Dominique hybrid

[Kombo]

Awesome theory. Lets call it something like... Chaos Theory

[Simple Jack]

[QUOTE=jstern]Think about it. Every random action that a person makes, like let say me raising my arm right now, creates a totally different path for the rest of my life that affects every person that I come in contact with, which affects the whole world. So if Len Bias hadn

[ballup]

I think people are forgetting that the Celtics drafted him and that he was going to be under the wing of Larry Bird and Kevin Mchale. If he were to learn a good portion of their skills, he would have easily been Jordan's equal or at least his most formidable rival. If he took some titles away from Jordan's Bulls, Jordan might not be the icon he is today.

[steve]

I think people are forgetting that the Celtics drafted him and that he was going to be under the wing of Larry Bird and Kevin Mchale. If he were to learn a good portion of their skills, he would have easily been Jordan's equal or at least his most formidable rival. If he took some titles away from Jordan's Bulls, Jordan might not be the icon he is today.
It's much more likely that would've happened (or something along those lines). The main thing is with Bias that '87 team doesn't wear down the same way it did. Even if Bias struggles a little during his rookie season, it's likely that he's still playing well enough to give Bird and McHale some rest and even if McHale did get hurt, the Celtics would've been more inclined to rest him and not worry about the issue as much because Bias is there. This would've furthered progressed pushing McHale back to the sixth man role, where he was most comfortable and deadly. In most cases the Celtics don't fade during the latter part of the decade and into the 90s where they dropped off the map completely (and you know, they still probably draft Reggie Lewis).

[kabalcage]

What if, this whole time, it wasn't drugs that kill Len Bias. Instead, it was an assassination; perpetrated by Michael Jordan and David Stern. The goal being that an individual triumphs over the team; now the accepted identity of the modern NBA. If Len Bias was alive; perhaps the Bulls don't win any championships and Stern couldn't get that marketing concept properly over.

It's funny that it was the Boston Celtics that died; that was the team. They triumphed over individuals like LeBron James, Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain time and again.

[jstern]

Although that was a weird down year for Branch, and UNC still had Perkins, which no one on Maryland could really account for. And yeah, people were talking about Bias' upside because he made a huge jump between freshman and sophomore years (which is also why I take exception to the OP questioning Bias' work ethic, judgment, yeah, maybe, but you can't question Bias' work ethic). My point was that the difference between UNC and Maryland that year was a pretty big gap, but however you want to shake it, Jordan didn't exactly dominate Bias (although again, it's not like they were ever directly going at each other).

I didn't really question it. I just said that as someone too young and not having ever seen a highlight of him before, the fact that he died of an overdoes kind of paints a mental image that might not be accurate, but that after seeing some highlights of his, his athleticism, game, you get a much better perspective. I guess what I mean is that his OD probably paints an inaccurate picture of him for those who never saw him play, but perhaps it was just one big mistake that a young person made that caused him his life. Not sure how often he did it, or if maybe he was more vulnerable to dying of an over does. Perhaps since he played so much basketball and worked out so much, though healthier than the average person, perhaps his heart was under a lot more stress than the average person.

[jstern]

Original POV, but how does Len Bias affect Griffin and KD becoming stars? They didn't start concentrating on ball because Len Bias passed away? They had the drive and determination to make it, and they did?

I think Len Bias would have shaped the NBA into something different from what it is today, but I don't think he would have changed individuals? It aint like Griffin would have been like "oh snap, Len Bias is so awesome I'm gonna play football instead.."

But there is no telling how Bias would have done in the NBA. Ed O'bannon was the next great thing once too coming out of college. You never know until they lace em up on the big stage.

I don't totally get the correlation between Len playing for the Celtics changing the course of several young star's individual talents, other than the "butterfly effect" that causes ripples in time/space

The point is that Griffin and Durant wouldn't have been born.

Think of it a slightly different way. If you go back 20 generations in your family, you would have 1,048,576 great, great, great... grand parents. If someone goes back in time and eliminates one, then genetically it affects every person that would have come after them, and every person that would have had kids with the people that came after them, completely. Now what I was saying is that every little action that a person makes now, like me writing this, completely changes the timing of everything that would have happened in your life, more significantly as time passes by, to the point that you might meet or not meet a certain girl, or have sex or not have sex with a certain girl, or have sex with her at a different time and produce a baby that would have been a different person.

[KevinNYC]

He was one of the real athletic college players who probably even be better in the pros. The Celtics were looking forward to him guarding Jordan. The Celtics in their title runs never had a player like him. Bird said there was a toughness to him. It would have been something if was on that 87 team and if the Bird and McHale stayed healthy. The health issue might have been the bigger issue. Bird never really started stretching until he started having back trouble. He popped both Achilles tendons on one play that year. I don't know if would have been Jordan....Jordan improved so much each year., but to me he looked like he could be at the Drexler-Dominique level.

In terms of his work habits or mental state, sis overdose was accidental, while he was celebrating being drafted...so it's most likely he wasn't an addict.

[Crown&Coke]

The point is that Griffin and Durant wouldn't have been born.

Think of it a slightly different way. If you go back 20 generations in your family, you would have 1,048,576 great, great, great... grand parents. If someone goes back in time and eliminates one, then genetically it affects every person that would have come after them, and every person that would have had kids with the people that came after them, completely. Now what I was saying is that every little action that a person makes now, like me writing this, completely changes the timing of everything that would have happened in your life, more significantly as time passes by, to the point that you might meet or not meet a certain girl, or have sex or not have sex with a certain girl, or have sex with her at a different time and produce a baby that would have been a different person.

I get your point, but its a stretch to say if Len Bias went home instead of to that party, the parents of KD or Griff (anyone for that matter) would have been affected, thus those guys not being born.

So I disagree that if Len Bias hadn't passed, it would have any bearing on any future stars other than them having another player to model their game after.

Bias was a monster, not a prototypical player by any strecth. He would probably be what we call today a hybrid forward, like someone else pointed out James Worthy type player. Strong as heck, and fast too.

[jstern]

I get your point, but its a stretch to say if Len Bias went home ins:wtf: ad of to that party, the parents of KD or Griff (anyone for that matter) would have been affected, thus those guys not being born.

So I disagree that if Len Bias hadn't passed, it would have any bearing on any future stars other than them having another player to model their game after.

Bias was a monster, not a prototypical player by any strecth. He would probably be what we call today a hybrid forward, like someone else pointed out James Worthy type player. Strong as heck, and fast too.

I was thinking about something similar today because of the Travon Martin thing. Like he was watching the All Star game, and decided to go to the store during half time. I don't remember what happened in the first half of that All Star game, but if lets say there would have been a couple of fouls more, or less, or a player would have gotten injured, causing the game to stop for a couple of minutes, then Trayvon Martin would have left a couple of minutes earlier, or later, and his killer wouldn't have seen him when he was driving by at the time because Trayvon wouldn't have been at that moment.

Or maybe if ESPN or ABC would have sold a couple of more commercial during half time, etc.

So if that's true, then everyone's life right now would have been so different, since so many people have spent so many hours arguing over it, millions of people. Which leads to billions of different paths, for millions of different people, all combining together. Maybe a couple did not meet, that otherwise would have met, thus not having sex and a certain player, different people being born and not being born. Or getting killed, not killed. Just an infinite amount of little scenarios.

(I bumped this thread because of a reply to Kennethgriffing the annoying Kobe Stan, in a Malik Sealy thread. It reminded me of it.)

[kamil]

Celtics would have easily won the '87 finals with Len Bias. I remember the 90s were pretty mediocre for Boston, I can only imagine what they would have been with him.

[#number6ix#]

Pass that shit

[Scholar]

I expected this to be an idiotic thread, but it was actually thought provoking.

It's interesting to put it into perspective. It's like those people who missed their flights on 9/11 or came to work late to the World Trade Center. Something caused their delay, such as traffic, waking up late, maybe overall laziness, etc., which caused their paths to inevitable death to be altered.

[Haymaker]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZQsr8rsBT2k/US-JNwCleuI/AAAAAAAACAs/zZRL0GCWOKU/s1600/Len+Bias.jpg

[KNOW1EDGE]

Pass that shit

Seriously.

If this didn't happen then that would have never happened.

Basically this guy is re-living the movie Back to the Future

[Psileas]

The point is that Griffin and Durant wouldn't have been born.

Think of it a slightly different way. If you go back 20 generations in your family, you would have 1,048,576 great, great, great... grand parents. If someone goes back in time and eliminates one, then genetically it affects every person that would have come after them, and every person that would have had kids with the people that came after them, completely. Now what I was saying is that every little action that a person makes now, like me writing this, completely changes the timing of everything that would have happened in your life, more significantly as time passes by, to the point that you might meet or not meet a certain girl, or have sex or not have sex with a certain girl, or have sex with her at a different time and produce a baby that would have been a different person.

Old post, but I think there's some confusion with the math here: 1,048,576 would be your grand-grand...children after 20 generations, not your ancestors. The ancestors of a specific person would be 40. Of course, there would exist much more simblings (also ancestors) alongside them, but the death of such a random simbling would not affect the birth of this specific person (excluding the chance of change of the events' course, obviously).

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

while I don't quite agree that KD and Blake wouldn't be stars, I do understand where you're going OP w/ the butterfly effect. metaphysics are really interesting to me, and yeah, the smallest thing can make the biggest difference in your life through a set of chain reactions or events.

All "what ifs", sure, but it's still interesting to think how different one's life could be if they had just done something slightly different. What if I wore a yellow shirt instead of green and didn't get that compliment from that girl at the store, who would later become my wife? What if I had just shot a 3 for the win instead of driving to the hole and twisting my ankle, needing to go to the clinic, meeting a beautiful nurse who would become my wife? What if I had parked up front at work instead of the shade where a hot co-worker happened to park and we started talking and she became my future wi-....man, I sure do have a lot of "what if" fake wives...:confusedshrug:

[Nezty]

I expected this to be an idiotic thread, but it was actually thought provoking.

It's interesting to put it into perspective. It's like those people who missed their flights on 9/11 or came to work late to the World Trade Center. Something caused their delay, such as traffic, waking up late, maybe overall laziness, etc., which caused their paths to inevitable death to be altered.


Sounds like Final Destination.

[jstern]

Old post, but I think there's some confusion with the math here: 1,048,576 would be your grand-grand...children after 20 generations, not your ancestors. The ancestors of a specific person would be 40. Of course, there would exist much more simblings (also ancestors) alongside them, but the death of such a random simbling would not affect the birth of this specific person (excluding the chance of change of the events' course, obviously).

Not quite sure what you're meaning, but I think my math is correct.

If you go back one generation, you have two parents.
If you go back two generations, you have 4 grandparents.
If you have go back three generations, you have 8 great, great grandparents.
Then 16 3 great, then 32, then 64, then 128, then 256, 512, 1024, 2048, by the 20th generation you would have 1,048,576, great... grandparents.

But it's not as simple as that, because most of them would be repeat grandparents, lots of mixing. Really hard to explain, but I think it's a very simple concept.

But that's why you always hear story that lets say Obama was related to Dick Cheney, and Brad Pitt was related so and so, which makes nuts think there's a conspiracy of the people in power. But the truth is that you don't have to go back too far to kind of see that everyone is related to each other in a sense.

But anyway, lets say Dick Cheney had a 15 year old son, and that son married one of the Obama daughters. If they have kids, those kids are going to have repeat great... grandparents. So if you go back 20 generations, it's not literally 1,048,576 grandparents, because there's going to a lot of mixing, instead it shows that most of us are related to each other.

If you go back in time and eliminated one of those grand parents, there would still be people here on earth, but that one little insignificant person would be enough to affect the face of everyone you would see outside right now.

I know it sounds complicated and I can't explain it better.

[Psileas]

Not quite sure what you're meaning, but I think my math is correct.

If you go back one generation, you have two parents.
If you go back two generations, you have 4 grandparents.
If you have go back three generations, you have 8 great, great grandparents.
Then 16 3 great, then 32, then 64, then 128, then 256, 512, 1024, 2048, by the 20th generation you would have 1,048,576, great... grandparents.

But it's not as simple as that, because most of them would be repeat grandparents, lots of mixing. Really hard to explain, but I think it's a very simple concept.

But that's why you always hear story that lets say Obama was related to Dick Cheney, and Brad Pitt was related so and so, which makes nuts think there's a conspiracy of the people in power. But the truth is that you don't have to go back too far to kind of see that everyone is related to each other in a sense.

But anyway, lets say Dick Cheney had a 15 year old son, and that son married one of the Obama daughters. If they have kids, those kids are going to have repeat great... grandparents. So if you go back 20 generations, it's not literally 1,048,576 grandparents, because there's going to a lot of mixing, instead it shows that most of us are related to each other.

If you go back in time and eliminated one of those grand parents, there would still be people here on earth, but that one little insignificant person would be enough to affect the face of everyone you would see outside right now.

I know it sounds complicated and I can't explain it better.

Oh, my bad, I was thinking of something else.
Yes, I agree with the bolded one.

[deja vu]

If my mom didn't meet my dad, I wouldn't have been born in a shithole. :roll:

[Vienceslav]

I expected this to be an idiotic thread, but it was actually thought provoking.

I expected this to be a thought provoking thread, but it was actually idiotic.:cheers:

[Clifton]

From what I've heard about Bias, he would have changed the game a lot. He was so good that it's very possible Jordan would not have been king of his conference. And he was so different from Jordan in terms of play style (kind of like a Lebron talent but with KG's attitude) that you wouldn't have had the early 00s "everybody tries to be Jordan" phenomenon because he simply wouldn't have dominated the 90s like he did. The team of the 90s would have been the Celtics, not the Bulls.

Another thing to consider is that Bias would have allowed Bird to stay in the league quite a bit longer. Would have cut down on his minutes considerably. Bias as top 3 player, plus the pedigree of having Bird around, would have made it easier to attract big names to Boston. They would have been contenders all throughout the 90s. Surely would have delayed Jordan's ascendancy and taken away at least one of his rings.

I honestly view the loss of Bias as on a level with if Magic had gotten HIV at the beginning of his 2nd year. The league is truly *that* different as a result. I mean imagine the Celtics winning 5-6-7 titles in the 80s instead of just 3. Bird with 5-6+ MVPs. How much differently we'd think of Jordan if he had had a rival all throughout his prime.

[wang4three]

Yeah, Len Bias alone... it has nothing to do with that drug education has become more prolific now than it was when Len Bias was growing up, and enforcement of anti-drug policies has increased.. no, it's just Len Bias.

While Len Bias' story is tragic and has become the posterboy for what could've been, there are many, many reasons that attribute to why athletes aren't snorting up cocaine and shooting up heroine.

Also, I'm tired of people speaking of Len Bias as if he were better than Jordan or would've been as great. While talented, no doubt, it takes much more than that to match one of the all time players. If Vince Carter died after 2000, people would've been saying he would've been better than Jordan had he lived. But he didn't, and we can see that he was a really good player, but not a great. I see no reason why Len Bias should be considered a great.

[Clifton]

Also, I'm tired of people speaking of Len Bias as if he were better than Jordan or would've been as great. While talented, no doubt, it takes much more than that to match one of the all time players. If Vince Carter died after 2000, people would've been saying he would've been better than Jordan had he lived. But he didn't, and we can see that he was a really good player, but not a great. I see no reason why Len Bias should be considered a great.
I don't know Len Bias, I've only heard things.

But every time I meet someone who might've watched him, I press him for info. And what I hear is, while not quite Jordan, more like a wing version of Charles Barkley. Which, considering the Celtics' pedigree he would have started out with (basically the equivalent of what Duncan had in SA - backing up Bird as a rookie, gradually replacing him while developing good work and teammate habits), he could have been that rare player who has all-time talent and who also maximizes every inch of it.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

If Greg Oden died of an OD before he played a game, people would be talking about how the league missed out on the next Bill Russell. Especially 10-20 years from now when his lore could grow.

[Nevaeh]

If Greg Oden died of an OD before he played a game, people would be talking about how the league missed out on the next Bill Russell. Especially 10-20 years from now when his lore could grow.

And that's what ISH has come to; now talking about how players could have been better than Jordan, had they had a chance to live.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Great analogy with Oden, btw. And who's to say that Bias wouldn't have blown out a knee in his first year, or maybe had a foot injury similar to second year Jordan's, but unable to fully recover from it?

You can play this "game" with players till the cows come home though, as I've done it in my mind a few times as well. What if AI grew to be 6'6, with the same B-ball mentality? What would Yao Ming's game be like, had he been raised in America? What if Bird went to the Lakers, Magic went to the Bulls, and Jordan was drafted by Boston? And on and on and on.......

[Clifton]

And that's what ISH has come to; now talking about how players could have been better than Jordan, had they had a chance to live.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Great analogy with Oden, btw. And who's to say that Bias wouldn't have blown out a knee in his first year, or maybe had a foot injury similar to second year Jordan's, but unable to fully recover from it?

You can play this "game" with players till the cows come home though, as I've done it in my mind a few times as well. What if AI grew to be 6'6, with the same B-ball mentality? What would Yao Ming's game be like, had he been raised in America? What if Bird went to the Lakers, Magic went to the Bulls, and Jordan was drafted by Boston? And on and on and on.......
I agree with you for the most part.

But there are some things I can't help but speculate on. And Bias is one of them. The best team in the whole entire history of basketball, which was starting to get a little old, added one of the hottest prospects ever, very comparable to the Showtime Lakers scoring Worthy. But one team had its prized addition die of a freaking drug overdose, and the other didn't, and so you have Showtime outlasting Bird's Celtics, everything swinging towards the Lakers in terms of legacy, no rival for Jordan in the 90s.... a lot of things changed.

I can't help it with Bias. For the most part, I agree, these speculations are useless.

[rustycage]

[QUOTE=jstern]Think about it. Every random action that a person makes, like let say me raising my arm right now, creates a totally different path for the rest of my life that affects every person that I come in contact with, which affects the whole world. So if Len Bias hadn

[Owl]

Why is the assumption that Bias would have an (even vaguely) Jordan-esque career trajectory when we look at what the other talented but drug troubled players from that draft (Bedford, Tarpley, Washburn).

Because of the interesting circumstances a top pick coming to great dynastic team that we now realise had just reached its apex, and suffered from injuries (which may have related to overplaying their core guys) we like to assume that Bias would be the pancea. Maybe, even if like Tarpley he was good, he just damages the franchise.

We like to dramatise the hypotheticals which are dramatic and seem close to happening (Bias was on the Celtics and died suddenly, so we easily imagine what if he played and was good).

But why not, "what if Boston hadn't traded the final pick of the first round 24th" (used on Arvydas Sabonis by Portland, though they could have taken the next pick Mark Price, or the 27th pick Dennis Rodman)? Or "what if they hadn't signed Ray Williams and so hadn't given away 2 second rounders in compensation" the first of which was Gerald Wilkins, and the second would be the final pick in the second round in '86, and furthermore what if David Stern hadn't given Cleveland an extra pick that year to make up for Ted Stepien being incompetent and the Celtics managed to land the guy who actually went in that 46th, and would have been final, spot, Jeff Hornacek. Of course they might just have wasted those picks anyway. But we don't entertain these counterfactuals or curse their loses simply because they are less visible.

As for OP whilst the butterfly effect has some validity:
1) why pick those specific events the whole point is it could be any small action which affects others
which leads me to
2) Your statement is false because we don't have a causal link between Bias' death and those players. You can only say that we might not have had them, but then you could say "we might have/not have" anything, you might just as well have said "if Len Bias hadn't OD, we we'd have all been killed by aliens"; it's just as weak in terms of causal links, and it's equally un-disprovabale (we don't have a time machine so we can't know). Basically if your statement isn't amenable to falsification (i.e. you can't disprove it) and there's no clear causal link then you're just playing guessing games.

[Clifton]

Why is the assumption that Bias would have an (even vaguely) Jordan-esque career trajectory when we look at what the other talented but drug troubled players from that draft (Bedford, Tarpley, Washburn).
I never remembered hearing that Bias had "drug troubles." I'm under the impression it was a freak accident. He happened to be at a party where there was coke and something went wrong.

I know guys at UVA law school, a top ten law school. Coke is huge there. There are guys who will be governors, attorneys, out running the world one day. A lot of them have probably done more coke than Bias did. I don't buy "drug addled." I've never heard he was one of those guys who let it run his life. Just had a tragic night

I could be totally wrong on this, of course.

[Owl]

I never remembered hearing that Bias had "drug troubles." I'm under the impression it was a freak accident. He happened to be at a party where there was coke and something went wrong.

I know guys at UVA law school, a top ten law school. Coke is huge there. There are guys who will be governors, attorneys, out running the world one day. A lot of them have probably done more coke than Bias did. I don't buy "drug addled." I've never heard he was one of those guys who let it run his life. Just had a tragic night

I could be totally wrong on this, of course.
Well firstly you've got to account for the probability. And the probability of a first time coke user, using amongst friends (i.e. in a relativly "safe" environment) who is an elite, is I'd imagine very small.

Add in that this usage is prior to his becoming a very wealthy man (and an NBA player/star supposedly with the increased fame that brings).

Brian Tribble (Len's teammate and the provider of the coke) expressly states that "Lenny had previously used coke", he says Len said something like "Terry and David is cool. They know ... what is going on, so you can be comfortable with them" (i.e. taking drugs in front of them). He talks about which teammates knew that they used coke and which didn't. Essentially he talks as though they had a history of using cocaine. This is all on the record in the easiest source for the story on Bias, ESPN 30 for 30's "Without Bias". I'm suprised that people continue to believe that this was a one off.

Tibble does admittedly go on that (when he saw Bias having seizures) he though "he doesn't do drugs ... like that. It's a small part of his life." Though to what degree coke usage can be "a small part" in anyones life is debatable.

There are those who say they never saw him take drugs which is probably true, it seems the social group he did drugs with, were aware that he took drugs.

Unless you have reason to doubt Tribble's veracity, you have to assume Len Bias was taking drugs, and specifically coke, and that it is probable that said activity would damage his NBA.

Further, Jeffrey Harding, former Assistant State Attorney, adds "how could this pure of cocaine have gotten into that room, with people who, uh it was reported, were social users of cocaine? The social user of cocaine doesn't have the access, that far up the chain." The implication being Tribble (and likely Bias) were regular users with sufficent connections to score "high end" drugs.

The evidence strongly suggests Len Bias had what could generously be described as a troublesome relationship with drugs, one which even if his talent hasn't been overblown in retrospect (and I believe it was) would likely have damaged his potential NBA productivity and possibily his team. The effects are right there in that draft class.

[monkeypox]

That's not really how it works. You raising your arm or not probably has almost no effect on the course of your life unless it actually causes you to do something different elsewhere. Some differences would be very localized and temporary. The flapping of butterfly wings in Texasn doesn't always cause a hurricane in China.

Maybe Len Bias staying alive would have changed things enough for neither of those players to exist, but then who knows? In the bubble of their parent's lives, the existence of Len Bias may have never intersected. As long as they have sex at the same time in the same way and the same sperm makes it to the egg, you're going to get the same guys.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

OP finds out what the Butterfly effect is

real original

[deja vu]

In terms of his work habits or mental state, sis overdose was accidental, while he was celebrating being drafted...so it's most likely he wasn't an addict.
Len Bias may be a drug addict. The media just went out of their way to portray him as a first time drug user who OD on cocaine. That is not the case though. A person cannot ingest a large amount of cocaine (3-5 grams) unless he has built tolerance for the drug over a long period of time. Len Bias ingesting a massive amount of cocaine in one night isn't the sign of someone who decided to taste cocaine for the first time, it's the sign of a drug addiction.

[305Baller]

http://pandadan.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/funny_sport_photo_06.jpg

[unknowns8]

[QUOTE=jstern]Think about it. Every random action that a person makes, like let say me raising my arm right now, creates a totally different path for the rest of my life that affects every person that I come in contact with, which affects the whole world. So if Len Bias hadn

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5owaMhfw2s He could have been Jordan's rival in the NBA in the 1990's. Very unfortunate that he died of a drug overdose at aged 23. ​

[JBSptfn]

Brian Tribble (Len's teammate and the provider of the coke) expressly states that "Lenny had previously used coke", he says Len said something like "Terry and David is cool. They know ... what is going on, so you can be comfortable with them" (i.e. taking drugs in front of them). He talks about which teammates knew that they used coke and which didn't. Essentially he talks as though they had a history of using cocaine. This is all on the record in the easiest source for the story on Bias, ESPN 30 for 30's "Without Bias". I'm suprised that people continue to believe that this was a one off.

Tibble does admittedly go on that (when he saw Bias having seizures) he though "he doesn't do drugs ... like that. It's a small part of his life." Though to what degree coke usage can be "a small part" in anyones life is debatable.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the first time that Bias used coke.

In the 1986 NBA Draft, the Sixers originally had the first pick before Harold Katz went full retard and made some of the dumbest trades in the history of sports.

They could have had Bias. However, their scout, Jack McMahon, said that there was something about him that he didn't like.

When I heard that, it makes me think: Did he know something about Bias that others didn't know?