25-6' year old jordan versus same age lebron...

[mananmater]

Now this is the thread of the week, and I want a lot of posts on this one, everyone form the common trolls to the senior members are welcome to share their views...



STOP.... take a breath, think, think, think..... I see a lot of the same traits, in 1988-89 jordan and 10-11 lebron, its so similar its scary, and they have both benefited and surpassed eachother in some ways, now lets not forget this, lebron is an legit 6 foot 9 and a half, argulably 6 foot 10, hes talking to a weight around 265 pounds, has an argulably 4 foot 6 inch vertical atleast, and he has incredible footwork, same traits as jordan except he was 6 foot 6 and some centimeters, had around a 3 and a half foot vertical, and had amazing footwork, also note like lebron right now jordan had an awful lot of turnovers that season, and was still working on ball security, another not is he was far behind on his jumpshot and had no fadeway at the time, as lebron has both of these things although he has a lot of work he needs to do before he is as good of a shooter as the later jordan was but again give it some time, however on jordans case he had more 40 plus point games and has had tmore 50 plus point games then lebron has had from 84 to 89, he also has been in a dunk and contest(doesnt mean anything) and had more mvps at the time, lebron at his current age is as much of a defender as jordan is now, and has a powerful post game except he rarely uses it which makes some believe he doesnt have one, he shoots a bit too much although hes trying to develop his shot just like jordan shot an awful lot in 88-89, i was only 10 at the time but I done a lot of studiyng and analysis, another mention is that this was probably one of his worst seasons even though he just entered his prime in 87 which one of the best seasons any nba player has ever had with an serious mad 37 points per game average, So lets see some replys,

In a temporary conclusion, lebron has a slight advantage on jordan as a 25-26 year old in terms of athletic abilities, and is a better shooter and much better 3 point shooter than jordan was at that time, but jordan had more higher point games and was a bit more dynamic in that season so its more like a draw as both of them would be strongly competing for mvp at that season if lebron was his age back then, jordan knows that so hes not too fond of lebron, another thing to note is lebron has more points(15,000+) right now then jordan had at his age,


I will be responded freqently to this thread, and please no mention of kobe, this is only concerning jordan and lebron, and try to stay on topic, and I welcome links to pics, videos, and articles including stat charts.

[KG5MVP]

Jordan would tear Lebron to pieces.

[G-Funk]

Jordan>Lebron

[Walduś]

Kobe would tear Lebron and Jordan to pieces.

[UwishUhadWall]

Yeah I'm sure Lebron has a 54 inch vertical :rolleyes:

[da dream]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

[KG5MVP]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

you forgot the most important stat, field goal percentage.

[Walduś]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.
2004= best defensive season of all time, fact.

[da dream]

you forgot the most important stat, field goal percentage.

Fixed


2004= best defensive season of all time, fact.

Yeah ok 2004 is nothing compared to the physical style of defense that was played during the late 1980's and early 1990's.

[Monkey D Dragon]

lol i always see jordan stans say this all the time.

LOL and the funny thing is these fools never watched 80's ball and 90's ball so Tell me how the fucccck do you know it was more Physical or not?

[fubu05]

lol i always see jordan stans say this all the time.

Why do you constantly just say pure sh*t when someone gives you a legit fact. In the late 80s, early 90s, the way defenders could hand check, play physical, made it much harder for the offensive player to get space. Someone like Durant who shy's away from physical contact would average 15-18 ppg in that era considering every defender played artest-like defense back then.

[Clippersfan86]

Jordan not even close. Lebron is a good defender as was Kobe at 25... but Jordan can completely change a game with his defense while scoring 30+ points on efficient scoring.

[UwishUhadWall]

LOL and the funny thing is these fools never watched 80's ball and 90's ball

Think again.

[Walduś]

Why do you constantly just say pure sh*t when someone gives you a legit fact. In the late 80s, early 90s, the way defenders could hand check, play physical, made it much harder for the offensive player to get space. Someone like Durant who shy's away from physical contact would average 15-18 ppg in that era considering every defender played artest-like defense back then.
there's another one.

[da dream]

LOL and the funny thing is these fools never watched 80's ball and 90's ball so Tell me how the fucccck do you know it was more Physical or not?


Because when you watch basketball in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's you can see the difference in the style of play. Not everybody on this board is 13 years old.

Fact is I hated Jordan when he played, but I can still recognize that he is one of the GOAT.

[Bodhi]

Fixed



Yeah ok 2004 is nothing compared to the physical style of defense that was played during the late 1980's and early 1990's.

2004 was much harder defensively if you look at things like the league defensive rating or FG% because there was hand checking and no illegal defense.

If you look at subjective things like how hard fouls were, then sure, late 80s had the best defenses even though teams scored more often and at better fg%.

[Walduś]

80's and 90's was so physical, does that mean every single player who averaged 20+ points in that era would average around 30+ points today? :rolleyes:

[mananmater]

I have yet to see a full reply thats informative but remember this is not a 89-93 jordan were talking about, jordan still had quite a few weaknesses at this time, but he was the unquestionable best player period.

[knightfall88]

Every year that Jordan has been in the NBA he has been Offensively superior to ANY time in Lebrons career. Defense is hard to say but I would lean towards Jordan.

The only thing that is even worth talking about between these two guys is the assists

[donald_trump]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

lebrons season there is better than jordans. no matter what the stats say. lebrons season there was one of the greatest ever.

[Monkey D Dragon]

Because when you watch basketball in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's you can see the difference in the style of play. Not everybody on this board is 13 years old.

Fact is I hated Jordan when he played, but I can still recognize that he is one of the GOAT.

Do i know you? Did I say u were 13? Did I say MJ was not the GOAT?

Moving on...

From what I have seen since 80's and early 90's yes NBA was more Physical then then 2000's but that does not mean the league was much more tougher during this era.

it has been about 30 years since the 80's since then People have gotten stronger and wiser. Only reason the league is not as physical as much is because of David Stern. He start making all these rules and start holding people accountable and start making these young kids Soft.

[Inactive]

I have yet to see a full reply thats informative but remember this is not a 89-93 jordan were talking about, jordan still had quite a few weaknesses at this time, but he was the unquestionable best player period.(person from 1988)" :roll: Magic 5 rings, Bird 3 rings, Jordan 0. Regular season hero, but can't beat Bird in the playoffs. Jordan is a stat whore, not a winner."

You seriously overrate Lebron's physical abilities in your OP. Michael had a better vert, and longer hang time than Lebron. You could say that Lebron is more athletic overall, because of his size/strength, but he hasn't surpassed Jordan in leaping ability, or quickness. Their speed running full court seems pretty similar, Lebron might have the edge. I also wouldn't call Lebron's footwork "amazing".

I don't see a lot of similarities between the two, aside from the fact that they were both great regular season players, that couldn't quite carry their teams to a championship. In terms of stats, Lebron is closer to the Larry Bird of 85-88, than MJ of 88. In terms of play style, he's pretty unique... kind of a combination of Magic, and Dominique, I guess. Wade's playstyle is closer to a young Jordan's, than Lebron's is, imo.

[mananmater]

lol inactive let me explain something to you, lebron has very good hangtime, lebron also has a much higher vertical then mj, lebron can jump atleast a foot higher than jordan, excellent quickness, excellent speed, hes faster up and down the court then jordan, jordan has a first step which lebron lost before jordan lost it in his second tenure after short retirement, lebron has lost his first step and explosiveness, which jordan had, but please dont tell me jordan could jump higher then lbj which is just a juvenile statement.

inactive you dont have much chances of beating the case, lebrons playing style is pretty unique, and yes there careers at this point at 26 is very similiar, so try to respond with an answer that makes sense, athleticly lebron is surpreme, its the scoring that puts jordan ahead, dont start telling me jordan is more atheletic than lbj, get your facts strait.

[madmax]

Gotta love those Jordan stans screaming "it's not even close":lol :facepalm The most overprotective bunch of the retired player I've ever seen...Space Jam generation tards never cease to dissapoint:applause:

[KG5MVP]

lol inactive let me explain something to you, lebron has very good hangtime, lebron also has a much higher vertical then mj, lebron can jump atleast a foot higher than jordan, excellent quickness, excellent speed, hes faster up and down the court then jordan, jordan has a first step which lebron lost before jordan lost it in his second tenure after short retirement, lebron has lost his first step and explosiveness, which jordan had, but please dont tell me jordan could jump higher then lbj which is just a juvenile statement.

inactive you dont have much chances of beating the case, lebrons playing style is pretty unique, and yes there careers at this point at 26 is very similiar, so try to respond with an answer that makes sense, athleticly lebron is surpreme, its the scoring that puts jordan ahead, dont start telling me jordan is more atheletic than lbj, get your facts strait.

are you retarded? Jordan has 48 inch vert, lebron has 43.

[knightfall88]

Let me just repeat myself. EVERY Year Jordan has been in the NBA he has been offensively superior than ANY point in Lebrons Career. His defense is better too.

You might want to argue a case for Lebrons extra rebounds and assists, but who cares honestly. Let me see Lebron use his rebounds and assists to beat MJ one on one.

[Inactive]

lol inactive let me explain something to you, lebron has very good hangtime, lebron also has a much higher vertical then mj, lebron can jump atleast a foot higher than jordan, excellent quickness, excellent speed, hes faster up and down the court then jordan, jordan has a first step which lebron lost before jordan lost it in his second tenure after short retirement, lebron has lost his first step and explosiveness, which jordan had, but please dont tell me jordan could jump higher then lbj which is just a juvenile statement. A foot higher? Are you kidding? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmG5m6XK8_s&feature=related vs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N_tpZr-T28&feature=related. If Lebron was going a foot higher than MJ, he would be damn near touching the top of the backboard. Keep in mind that Lebron is taller, and has longer arms than MJ, so when they're getting to the same point (head at rim level, or ball at the top of the square) MJ is actually jumping higher.


inactive you dont have much chances of beating the case, lebrons playing style is pretty unique, and yes there careers at this point at 26 is very similiar, so try to respond with an answer that makes sense, athleticly lebron is surpreme, its the scoring that puts jordan ahead, dont start telling me jordan is more atheletic than lbj, get your facts strait.I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Is English your first language?

[madmax]

Let me just repeat myself. EVERY Year Jordan has been in the NBA he has been offensively superior than ANY point in Lebrons Career. His defense is better too.

You might want to argue a case for Lebrons extra rebounds and assists, but who cares honestly. Let me see Lebron use his rebounds and assists to beat MJ one on one.

too bad the game of basketball isn't played 1 on 1....
Let me see His Airness lead a bunch of useless scrubs of the Cavs caliber to the NBA finals first, before comparing his impact on the court to Lebron

[Micku]

Jordan. That was the year that they surprised everybody in the playoffs. They beat the Cavs with The Shot, a game winner by Jordan on the last game of the series against the Cavs. They beat the Knicks and they took the Pistons to a six game series. They upseted a few teams that year and overachieved.

Look at Jordan's playoff numbers that year:

34.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.6 apg, .510% FG per game.

[Inactive]

Let me just repeat myself. EVERY Year Jordan has been in the NBA he has been offensively superior than ANY point in Lebrons Career. His defense is better too.

You might want to argue a case for Lebrons extra rebounds and assists, but who cares honestly. Let me see Lebron use his rebounds and assists to beat MJ one on one.I would guess that Dwight Howard would destroy a prime MJ 1 on 1, easily. MJ has no way to stop Dwight, Dwight has no way to stop MJ. The difference is that Dwight isn't likely to miss a dunk, but MJ will eventually miss a jumpshot, or have a layup blocked from behind.

[Ikill]

Lebron is 6'8 with shoes 255 at most and maybe a 38 inch veritcal maybe a couple years back he had a 40.

[mananmater]

inactive im going to ask you to stop poluting my thread in a moment, and to the last poster lebrons 6foot 9 inches atleast, and is 265, if you claim something like that you need sources, you sound like your not fond of lebron.


inactive, lebron has no need to jump really high first of all because he only needs a bunny hop to dunk, if the rim were 13 feet lebron could dunk it, your rarely see lebron use his full jumping potential becuase hes so tall, but dont for a second believe lebron cant jump as high as mj, your not fooling nobody with that bullshit, secondly please remove your self from my thread, as its quite obvious you dont like lebron, youve been warned,


one more bad post earns you a respected ignore list member, so if you dont have a (im wrong, my bad) response stop posting.

[magnax1]

Once again I feel the need to ponder how people came to the conclusion that Lebron is 265
6-9 265
http://staff-look-a-likes.synthasite.com/resources/malone_big.jpg
Lebron
http://cdn1.newsone.com/files/2010/05/lebron-james.jpg
And Jordan was considerably better then Lebron. Lebron has probably had the third or fourth best peak of the 00's and Jordan had the first or second best peak ever.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

12 pages at least

[NauruDude]

hahaha jordan is 22 yo or sumtin' smh. What you think it is knot known if he will be good. Da Griff is still good.

[cp3mvp2011]

inactive im going to ask you to stop poluting my thread in a moment, and to the last poster lebrons 6foot 9 inches atleast, and is 265, if you claim something like that you need sources, you sound like your not fond of lebron.


inactive, lebron has no need to jump really high first of all because he only needs a bunny hop to dunk, if the rim were 13 feet lebron could dunk it, your rarely see lebron use his full jumping potential becuase hes so tall, but dont for a second believe lebron cant jump as high as mj, your not fooling nobody with that bullshit, secondly please remove your self from my thread, as its quite obvious you dont like lebron, youve been warned,


one more bad post earns you a respected ignore list member, so if you dont have a (im wrong, my bad) response stop posting.

LeBron Homer :facepalm

1980's DEFENCE >>>>>>>> 2000's DEFENCE

[gengiskhan]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

why is 25 yo kobe in the same conversation with 25yr Lebron & 25 yr MJ. Kobe's numbers are not even close.

MJ>>Lebron. Much much harder to ave 32.5/8/8 against center oriented rules NBA. Bulls also had poor center position so no free alley oop dunk asists.

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>25Y kobe. no explainations ever needed. this comparison an insult to MJ

[gengiskhan]

Because when you watch basketball in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's you can see the difference in the style of play. Not everybody on this board is 13 years old.

Fact is I hated Jordan when he played, but I can still recognize that he is one of the GOAT.

same here. I could not stand Jordan when he played. My fav player was MJ's direct rival Drexler. My home team fav team NYK.

only after he retired & wannabe jokers like Kobe & Lebron showed up & ESPN hyping them up to be better than MJ but not even better than Hakeem IMO.

now, I started truly appreciated MJ's GOATness.

[indiefan24]

why is 25 yo kobe in the same conversation with 25yr Lebron & 25 yr MJ. Kobe's numbers are not even close.

MJ>>Lebron. Much much harder to ave 32.5/8/8 against center oriented rules NBA. Bulls also had poor center position so no free alley oop dunk asists.

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>25Y kobe. no explainations ever needed. this comparison an insult to MJ

well duh, that was the year the lakers added Malone/Payton and he was going through his rape trial.

not saying it's comparable to anything MJ did, but he had a much better year when he was 24 against the "center oriented" rules.

[Nash-tastic]

lebron is an legit 6 foot 9 and a half, argulably 6 foot 10, hes talking to a weight around 265 pounds, has an argulably 4 foot 6 inch vertical atleast, and he has incredible footwork
:wtf:

[Nash-tastic]

too bad the game of basketball isn't played 1 on 1....
Let me see His Airness lead a bunch of useless scrubs of the Cavs caliber to the NBA finals first, before comparing his impact on the court to Lebron
Against the weak East and with current rules? Yeah Jordan could do that

[Ikill]

are you retarded? Jordan has 48 inch vert, lebron has 43.
i doubt that

[az00m]

Jordans vert was maxed out at 42 inches at one of the dunk contest, you're telling me lebron can jump 54 inches? ROFL.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

(person from 1988)" :roll: Magic 5 rings, Bird 3 rings, Jordan 0. Regular season hero, but can't beat Bird in the playoffs. Jordan is a stat whore, not a winner."

You seriously overrate Lebron's physical abilities in your OP. Michael had a better vert, and longer hang time than Lebron. You could say that Lebron is more athletic overall, because of his size/strength, but he hasn't surpassed Jordan in leaping ability, or quickness. Their speed running full court seems pretty similar, Lebron might have the edge. I also wouldn't call Lebron's footwork "amazing".

I don't see a lot of similarities between the two, aside from the fact that they were both great regular season players, that couldn't quite carry their teams to a championship. In terms of stats, Lebron is closer to the Larry Bird of 85-88, than MJ of 88. In terms of play style, he's pretty unique... kind of a combination of Magic, and Dominique, I guess. Wade's playstyle is closer to a young Jordan's, than Lebron's is, imo.

I agree. LeBron can jump 54 inches? lol
Mj probably came close to a 50 inch vertical.

[YouCallILose]

Did someone seriously say that prime Durant would only average 15-18 ppg in the 80's? Is that a fvcking joke?

[oh the horror]

I would guess that Dwight Howard would destroy a prime MJ 1 on 1, easily. MJ has no way to stop Dwight, Dwight has no way to stop MJ. The difference is that Dwight isn't likely to miss a dunk, but MJ will eventually miss a jumpshot, or have a layup blocked from behind.



This is getting silly now. How the fu*k are we going to compare a shooting guard with a center straight up?

[Walduś]

Did someone seriously say that prime Durant would only average 15-18 ppg in the 80's? Is that a fvcking joke?
yeah, some jordan stan.

[Richie2k6]

this is new...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game



Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.


This is disingenuous.

First of all, Kobe was sharing the ball with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton.
Defense was also much tougher in 2004 than it was in 1989 or 2010.
And Kobe wasn't even healthy in the first half of the season, and that's not even mentioning the off the court stress.

Kobe was healthier after the all-star break and he averaged 27 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 6.1 apg on 45.3% shooting.



2004= best defensive season of all time, fact.

1999 and 2004 were the 2 best. In those 2 seasons, a total of 3 players topped 25 ppg. T-Mac, Iverson and Shaq, and both T-Mac and Iverson were inefficient, that should be enough for some to realize how good defense was at the time.

Of course, if you watched teams like the Spurs and Pistons objectively then it should've been obvious anyway, holding teams to scores in the 70s pretty regularly.

'98-'04 was the toughest defensive era.

:oldlol: at late 80's defense being better.



Once again I feel the need to ponder how people came to the conclusion that Lebron is 265
6-9 265
http://staff-look-a-likes.synthasite.com/resources/malone_big.jpg
Lebron
http://cdn1.newsone.com/files/2010/05/lebron-james.jpg
And Jordan was considerably better then Lebron. Lebron has probably had the third or fourth best peak of the 00's and Jordan had the first or second best peak ever.

Everyone carries weight differently and we don't know what Malone's real weight was, that's just his listed weight. Shaq was still getting listed at 315 in 2000 and 2001 when he really reported to training camp in 1999-2000 at 340 and he was probably bigger in 2001. Never mind 2002 and 2003 when he was reportedly 370-380 and still listed at 330 or something.

Lebron was weighed at 245 at the pre-draft camp, here's what rookie Lebron looked like at 245.

http://images.quizilla.com/N/nelly25/1059119795_mes_030626.jpg

And....

http://sportschick.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/lebron_james_3408968580-220x300.jpg

Are you telling me that Lebron hasn't gained 15 pounds since he entered the league? I'd bet money that he's over 260 and has been for several years, at least since the 2007-2008 season when he first claimed to be 260.

[Roundball_Rock]

Has there ever been a MJ comparison thread on ISH that MJ has lost?


Let me just repeat myself. EVERY Year Jordan has been in the NBA he has been offensively superior than ANY point in Lebrons Career. His defense is better too.


too bad the game of basketball isn't played 1 on 1....
Let me see His Airness lead a bunch of useless scrubs of the Cavs caliber to the NBA finals first, before comparing his impact on the court to Lebron

Cleveland in 2009: 66-15 (80.5%)
Cleveland in 2010: 61-16 (74%)

Cleveland in 2011: 8-35 (19%, on pace for a 15-66 record)

Keep in mind the Cavs started the season 5-5. Since then they are a pathetic 3-30 (9%). The Cavs have went from having the best record record in the league two seasons in a row with Lebron to being the worst team in the league without Lebron.

Chicago in 1993: 57-25 (69.5%)
Chicago in 1994: 55-27 (67%)

When MJ left his team did not drop 45-50 games but a mere 2 games--and this was peak MJ, not 25 year old MJ. Yet he>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lebron? :wtf:

[branslowski]

Did someone seriously say that prime Durant would only average 15-18 ppg in the 80's? Is that a fvcking joke?

notsureifserious.......:wtf:

[branslowski]

:facepalm PPL really in this thread saying 80's defense was better than 00's defense?....

Sorry, but 99-04 had to be the best defense of All-Time in my opinion. Not only were players hand-checking, grabbing, but they were also playing Zones..Coaches were more up to date on advance defense more around that time than they ever were before...Thats just the truth.

[magnax1]

This is disingenuous.

First of all, Kobe was sharing the ball with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton.
Defense was also much tougher in 2004 than it was in 1989 or 2010.
And Kobe wasn't even healthy in the first half of the season, and that's not even mentioning the off the court stress.

Kobe was healthier after the all-star break and he averaged 27 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 6.1 apg on 45.3% shooting.




1999 and 2004 were the 2 best. In those 2 seasons, a total of 3 players topped 25 ppg. T-Mac, Iverson and Shaq, and both T-Mac and Iverson were inefficient, that should be enough for some to realize how good defense was at the time.

Of course, if you watched teams like the Spurs and Pistons objectively then it should've been obvious anyway, holding teams to scores in the 70s pretty regularly.

'98-'04 was the toughest defensive era.

:oldlol: at late 80's defense being better.




Everyone carries weight differently and we don't know what Malone's real weight was, that's just his listed weight. Shaq was still getting listed at 315 in 2000 and 2001 when he really reported to training camp in 1999-2000 at 340 and he was probably bigger in 2001. Never mind 2002 and 2003 when he was reportedly 370-380 and still listed at 330 or something.

Lebron was weighed at 245 at the pre-draft camp, here's what rookie Lebron looked like at 245.

http://images.quizilla.com/N/nelly25/1059119795_mes_030626.jpg

And....

http://sportschick.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/lebron_james_3408968580-220x300.jpg

Are you telling me that Lebron hasn't gained 15 pounds since he entered the league? I'd bet money that he's over 260 and has been for several years, at least since the 2007-2008 season when he first claimed to be 260.
Karl Malone's listed weight is 250, and it's possible that they upped Lebron's draft weight like they do height. Kobe was listed at 6-7 or something for a while when he's really closer to 6-5.
As for 98-04 being the best defensive period of all time, the stats showing that might have more to do with a drop in talent in that period then anything else. I don't really think defense was any better then it was from 92-97.

[N0Skillz]

This is disingenuous.

First of all, Kobe was sharing the ball with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton.
Defense was also much tougher in 2004 than it was in 1989 or 2010.
And Kobe wasn't even healthy in the first half of the season, and that's not even mentioning the off the court stress.

Kobe was healthier after the all-star break and he averaged 27 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 6.1 apg on 45.3% shooting.




1999 and 2004 were the 2 best. In those 2 seasons, a total of 3 players topped 25 ppg. T-Mac, Iverson and Shaq, and both T-Mac and Iverson were inefficient, that should be enough for some to realize how good defense was at the time.

Of course, if you watched teams like the Spurs and Pistons objectively then it should've been obvious anyway, holding teams to scores in the 70s pretty regularly.

'98-'04 was the toughest defensive era.

:oldlol: at late 80's defense being better.




Everyone carries weight differently and we don't know what Malone's real weight was, that's just his listed weight. Shaq was still getting listed at 315 in 2000 and 2001 when he really reported to training camp in 1999-2000 at 340 and he was probably bigger in 2001. Never mind 2002 and 2003 when he was reportedly 370-380 and still listed at 330 or something.

Lebron was weighed at 245 at the pre-draft camp, here's what rookie Lebron looked like at 245.

http://images.quizilla.com/N/nelly25/1059119795_mes_030626.jpg

And....

http://sportschick.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/lebron_james_3408968580-220x300.jpg

Are you telling me that Lebron hasn't gained 15 pounds since he entered the league? I'd bet money that he's over 260 and has been for several years, at least since the 2007-2008 season when he first claimed to be 260.


:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[da dream]

This is disingenuous.

First of all, Kobe was sharing the ball with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton.
Defense was also much tougher in 2004 than it was in 1989 or 2010.
And Kobe wasn't even healthy in the first half of the season, and that's not even mentioning the off the court stress.

Kobe was healthier after the all-star break and he averaged 27 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 6.1 apg on 45.3% shooting.




Why don't we take a look at the following year when both Jordan and Kobe were 26:

Kobe - 27.6 points / 5.9 boards / 6 assists / .433 FG%

Jordan - 33.6 points / 6.9 boards / 6.3 assists / .526 FG%

[da dream]

:facepalm PPL really in this thread saying 80's defense was better than 00's defense?....

Sorry, but 99-04 had to be the best defense of All-Time in my opinion. Not only were players hand-checking, grabbing, but they were also playing Zones..Coaches were more up to date on advance defense more around that time than they ever were before...Thats just the truth.


Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. So nice try.

Here's a good article for you to read: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/index.html



Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

The rules changes did what they were supposed to do -- open up the game. Scoring average has increased from an average 95.6 points per game in the 1997-98 season to this year's 100 per game. Overall field goal percentage has increased from 45.0 percent in '97-'98 to 45.9 percent this season. Three-point percentage has gone up, from .346 11 years ago to .367 this season. And fouls have gone down, from a league average of 1,837 fouls in 1997 to 1,726 this season. The statistical-based Basketball Prospectus wrote at the beginning of this season that the game's pace -- defined as possessions per game -- had increased from its nadir during the lockout season of 1999 (around 88 possessions per game) to around 91 per game in the 2007-08 season.

[NauruDude]

Are you comparing Michael or DeAndre?

[Inactive]

This is getting silly now. How the fu*k are we going to compare a shooting guard with a center straight up?It's almost as silly as saying
You might want to argue a case for Lebrons extra rebounds and assists, but who cares honestly. Let me see Lebron use his rebounds and assists to beat MJ one on one.

1 on 1 ability doesn't have much bearing on your effectiveness in 5 on 5. Not very many people would dispute that MJ was a better player than Dwight is, but Dwight would win 1 on 1. That's the point.

[BuGzBuNNy]

Why don't we take a look at the following year when both Jordan and Kobe were 26:

Kobe - 27.6 points / 5.9 boards / 6 assists / .433 FG%

Jordan - 33.6 points / 6.9 boards / 6.3 assists / .526 FG%
The league averaged 107.0 PPG in 89-90 and in 04-05 teams averaged only 97.2. So that right there tells you that players who played in 89-90 are more likely to have a higher PPG than players who played in 04-05. Same thing with FG%, Reb, and assists. It's irrelevant to compare the stats of a current player to a past player without noting the circumstances.

For example, someone who averages 50pts in a league where the team average was 200ppg, isn't more impressive than someone who is averaging 25pts in a league where the team average was 100ppg.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Karl Malone's listed weight is 250, and it's possible that they upped Lebron's draft weight like they do height. Kobe was listed at 6-7 or something for a while when he's really closer to 6-5.
As for 98-04 being the best defensive period of all time, the stats showing that might have more to do with a drop in talent in that period then anything else. I don't really think defense was any better then it was from 92-97.

I've never heard of them upping weights at the pre-draft camp, that's different than the NBA's official listings. Players often measure shorter at the camp than the NBA lists them, so Lebron's weight from the camp is most likely legit, meaning he's easily 260 now.

Kobe's 6'7" listing was from the NBA, not the pre-draft camp. And they very rarely update weights, everyone knew that late 90's/early 00's Shawn Kemp was over 300 pounds yet he wasn't listed at it.

I doubt it has much to do with talent as there were plenty of talented players from '98-'04. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Jordan(in '98, '02 and '03), Malone, C-Webb, Gary Payton, Dirk, Grant Hill, T-Mac, Zo, Iverson, Paul Pierce, VC, Ray Allen ect. And I definitely don't buy that the average player has gotten worse over time.

Look at the average defensive ratings each year(points per 100 possessions)

1998- 105
1999- 102.2
2000- 104.1
2001- 103
2002- 104.5
2003- 103.6
2004- 102.9

And now '92-'97

1992- 108.2
1993- 108
1994- 106.3
1995- 108.3
1996- 107.6
1997- 106.7

People were complaining quite a bit about the ugly style of play in the late 90's/early 00's, ratings were down iirc and I remember people questioning whether fans really wanted to see a more defensive-oriented game, that's why people made such a big deal about the Suns.

The game started changing slowly, probably starting with the Pistons in the late 80's and the early/mid 90's Knicks also continued this change and by '98-'04, the game was tougher defensively and "uglier"


Why don't we take a look at the following year when both Jordan and Kobe were 26:

Kobe - 27.6 points / 5.9 boards / 6 assists / .433 FG%

Jordan - 33.6 points / 6.9 boards / 6.3 assists / .526 FG%

I'm not saying Kobe is as good as Jordan, but 2004 was not a great example, and 2005 also isn't the best example. I believe Kobe played with plantar fasciitis, the same injury which lowered Duncan's numbers a lot in '06. Also, when Rudy T stepped down and Frank Hamblen put back the more familiar triangle offense, Kobe's efficiency went way up. He averaged 27.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg and 5.4 apg over his last 32 games with Hamblen as the coach and he shot 46.3% from the field while making 2 threes per game and getting to the line 9.1 times per game(while shooting 84%).

Look at Kobe in 2003 at age 24- 30 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 45.1 FG%, 38.3 3P%, 84.3 FT%.

And then Kobe in 2006 at age 27- 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.8 spg, 45 FG% and 2.3 threes per game

I don't think it's a coincidence that Kobe's numbers dropped significantly in '04 and '05 and then rose so much in '06. I believe it was all of the court stuff as well as injuries and the coaching changes which were another distraction.

[Micku]

People were complaining quite a bit about the ugly style of play in the late 90's/early 00's, ratings were down iirc and I remember people questioning whether fans really wanted to see a more defensive-oriented game, that's why people made such a big deal about the Suns.

The game started changing slowly, probably starting with the Pistons in the late 80's and the early/mid 90's Knicks also continued this change and by '98-'04, the game was tougher defensively and "uglier"

I remember that. I remember the media saying that they think more basketball teams should play more uptempo basketball. And there were some people who were complaining about the offense in the early 00s. I think they were complaining about the fundamentals and shot selection and etc. You can still see people complain about it now and make comments here and there, but around the early 00s, the league didn't have a lot of uptemp b-ball I think. Maybe because the defense got better? I dunno.

The Pistons did influence how to play defense against someone like Jordan. Knicks followed up on that. Then around the mid 90s, they started to limit hand-checking and a little physical defense. I think Doc Rivers retired because of that, saying that they are not allowed to defend anymore. Teams started to follow the college basketball style of how to defend without fouling, and I think that also set another mark on how the league started to defend.



I don't think it's a coincidence that Kobe's numbers dropped significantly in '04 and '05 and then rose so much in '06. I believe it was all of the court stuff as well as injuries and the coaching changes which were another distraction.

Well, in 04 the whole league sucked at the offense side. It could be because it was a strange year for everybody or that the defense was very good. It could be both. The pacing of the game was similar of the mid-late 90s, so it had to be either or both. The FG% and the PPG were low. The league average FG% was .439% and the PPG were 93.4. I think in 04, the FG% was probably the lowest it's been in decades (not counting the short season of 98-99), but I could be wrong.

For Kobe specially, he had distractions off the court, the big four with Shaq, Malone, Payton, and him. Plus the whole weirdness of either crappy offense and epic defense that year.

[magnax1]

I've never heard of them upping weights at the pre-draft camp, that's different than the NBA's official listings. Players often measure shorter at the camp than the NBA lists them, so Lebron's weight from the camp is most likely legit, meaning he's easily 260 now.

Kobe's 6'7" listing was from the NBA, not the pre-draft camp. And they very rarely update weights, everyone knew that late 90's/early 00's Shawn Kemp was over 300 pounds yet he wasn't listed at it.

I doubt it has much to do with talent as there were plenty of talented players from '98-'04. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Jordan(in '98, '02 and '03), Malone, C-Webb, Gary Payton, Dirk, Grant Hill, T-Mac, Zo, Iverson, Paul Pierce, VC, Ray Allen ect. And I definitely don't buy that the average player has gotten worse over time.

Look at the average defensive ratings each year(points per 100 possessions)

1998- 105
1999- 102.2
2000- 104.1
2001- 103
2002- 104.5
2003- 103.6
2004- 102.9

And now '92-'97

1992- 108.2
1993- 108
1994- 106.3
1995- 108.3
1996- 107.6
1997- 106.7



I don't know, I'd definitely say that the league in 92 was more talented from top to bottom then after 2000. A lot of the good teams were basically the same teams that were top tier in the late 90's, only declined from age, a lot of the best players like TMac and AI were stuck on terrible teams, and there just weren't a lot of teams that really took a leap into the top tier teams. LA, Portland for a year, and Sacramento. The Spurs were good, but they still declined from 99 until 2003 when they jumped a little and the Lakers declined a little. 2004 the league started to pick up a little, but I don't think it really has recovered completely until the past couple of years.
I could be wrong about all of it, opinions usually differ vastly on this sort of stuff, but I think the drop in talent after 96 or so was really the largest part of the statistics dropping down from 98 onwards, because I don't see a large difference in the defenses in 94 to 04.

[OldSchoolBBall]

From a post of mine on another board regarding Jordan's 1989 season (age 25-26):

During the the first 4 months of the season Jordan was averaging 33.6 ppg/55.4% FG/64% TS and the last 2 months of the season, after being moved to PG (25 games), he was averaging 30.4 pts/9.3 reb/11.2 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/52.3% FG including 7 straight triple doubles and 10 triple doubles in 11 consecutive games. Truly a remarkable player.

That was 25-26 year old Jordan. And far superior defensive impact as compared to Lebron. And a far more varied offensive game. And more clutch etc. too.

[d.bball.guy]

I thought there would be 25 6 year old Jordan vs 25 6 year old LeBron.:hammerhead:

[Magic Vinsanity]

Kobe Bryant at 25 (2003-2004) - 24pts / 5.5 boards / 5.1 assists / .438 FG% per game

Lebron James at 25 (2009-2010) - 29.7 pts / 7.3 boards / 8.6 assists / .503 FG% per game

Michael Jordan at 25 (1988-1989) - 32.5 pts / 8 boards / 8 assists / .538 FG% per game

Jordan > Lebron > Kobe at 25.

Plus Jordan played in an era where the league was much more stacked with talent, Jordan played against MUCH tougher opponents than LeB*tch.

[mananmater]

Well this will always be controversial, truth is both (one is) are or were the best scorers and defenders and most versatile players in the league at the time, jordan 20 years ago, and lebron now, although, believe what you want, lebron is more capable athleticaly, and its easier for him to break stature records, this is obvious, and theres no question lbj is the leagues most valuable player currently.

[Tide]

MJ is better by leaps and bounds, but with that being said a 1v1 game could go LeBron's way due to his size and stength.

[Papaya Petee]

I don't agree with most opinions but I am not going to bother arguing because Jordan wins every single debate ever.

However, I would like to say that in fact 1999-2004 defenses were the best, as top players were limited to their lowest scoring averages in primes, and defensive ratings were lower.

And comparing Kobe at 25 in 2003-2004 is absolutely dumb. He had Shaq, Payton, Malone on his team, he was injured, and had the rape trial. Why not use a 2004 year old Kobe who put up 30\7\6\2\1?