How truly good was Dr.J?

[jlip]

Dr. J was in the twilight of his career when I started watching basketball in the mid-80's, but I've read quite a bit of information about him and understand that he completely dominated the ABA. On top of that I was reading where as he was ending his ABA career he was getting consideration as the greatest forward ever. One source said that he readily sacrificed much of his scoring and playing time after joining the Sixers because they wanted a balanced offense that featured at least 3 scorers who could avg. 20ppg as opposed to an offense centered around one dominant 30ppg scorer. He also is arguably the best mid sized shot blocker (6'7 or shorter) in league history.

Having said these things, if he didn't sacrifice so much of his game (i.e. scoring and playing time) once he joined the Sixers, is it possible that he would be spoken of in the same breath as say Kareem, Magic, Bird, and MJ? As a player was he actually that good?

[t-rex]

The problem with Dr J is that America never saw him in the prime of his career.

The 1970s were a bad decade for the NBA. And for the ABA it was even worse. TV ratings were abysmal. And crowds were sparse. I have had old timers tell me that if more people had seen Erving in his prime, his status as an all time great player would be elevated.

When the NBA was reborn in the 1980s, many fans for the first time were introduced to Dr. J. But the man who won a title in 1983 and regularly battled Bird and the Celtics in the early to mid 1980s was not the same Dr. J of 1976 or 1977.


Having said this, I struggle with where to rank Dr. J on the all time list.

I believe at the time he retired, if you add ABA and NBA records, he was actually the 3rd all time leading scorer in pro basketball history. But at the same time, his ball handling skills were not great, he only had an average outside shot, and he wasn't a great passer or a shut down defender.

So how would he fair in the modern game?

Was a he just a slasher, or an elite franchise level scorer? I guess we will never know.

[Showtime]

The problem with Dr J is that America never saw him in the prime of his career.

The 1970s were a bad decade for the NBA. And for the ABA it was even worse. TV ratings were abysmal. And crowds were sparse. I have had old timers tell me that if more people had seen Erving in his prime, his status as an all time great player would be elevated.

When the NBA was reborn in the 1980s, many fans for the first time were introduced to Dr. J. But the man who won a title in 1983 and regularly battled Bird and the Celtics in the early to mid 1980s was not the same Dr. J of 1976 or 1977.


Having said this, I struggle with where to rank Dr. J on the all time list.

I believe at the time he retired, if you add ABA and NBA records, he was actually the 3rd all time leading scorer in pro basketball history. But at the same time, his ball handling skills were not great, he only had an average outside shot, and he wasn't a great passer or a shut down defender.

So how would he fair in the modern game?

Was a he just a slasher, or an elite franchise level scorer? I guess we will never know.
Part of the reason the ABA gets a lower reputation is that they weren't on TV as much (only a few networks then), and if you wanted to watch a ABA game, your best bet was to go to one in person. Guys like George McGinnis, Mel Daniels, Dr J, Artis Gilmore, etc who had their best seasons there often get overlooked. It's funny too, seeing has how many players, including top stars, played in both leagues.

[wheyhigh]

he was great

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't get the whole "Dr. J was pst his prime when he got to the NBA" stuff. A players prime is usually from around 26-30, and Julius was in the NBA during that time.

His best NBA season was probably in 1980 when he was 29. Watch some '80 Sixers games and you'll see that the athleticism was still there, that famous lay up in the finals vs the Lakers was from the 1980 finals. He was blowing by guys and finishing effortlessly.

In fact, check out his 1980 numbers compared to his first NBA season 1977 when he was 26.

1977- 21.6 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.4 bpg, 49.9 FG%
1980- 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%

Aside from being the best open court player of his era and one of the better scorers, Dr. J seemed to be an underrated passer, and he was clearly among the elite players in the league.

He made 7 consecutive all-nba teams and 5 all-nba first teams and 4 consecutive all-nba first teams from '80-'83. He also won the MVP award in 1981.

And prior to finally winning a title in '83, he led his team to 3 finals.

But no, I don't think he had the ability Kareem, Michael, Larry or Magic did.

[Gotterdammerung]

Shaqattack, the reason many say that Doctor J's prime was spent in the ABA is because they claim his knees were shot by the time he got to the NBA in 1976. He did play 11 great years in the NBA, but observers routinely say that his knees were worn down after 5 years in the ABA. They say that he did the following in the ABA that he no longer could in the NBA: cut sharply without the ball, play energetic denial defense in the post and on the wings, jump five times after the same rebound, and dunk from a flatfooted jump versus giants like Artis Gilmore.

Not having seen him play in the ABA prevents me from making any conclusions from empirically based observations, but it's reasonable to assume that his athletic prime was shorter than most and that he maintained his level of play with tremendous skill in the NBA.

On top of being the greatest finisher in league history, everybody (coaches, fans, other players) held their breath when the Doctor launched towards the basket at full speed. If you watched him play live, you were never disappointed because at least once every game, the Doctor pulled off a move nobody ever did before. An acrobatic layup in a thicket of arms drew gasps. A soaring smash over a center at the peak of his jump. An icream scoop layup from 10 feet away.

On top of this incredible ability, Julius Erving was also a winner. He was a sky-high rebounder (particularly on the offensive glass) a creative shot maker and passer, & most importantly, a supportive and inspirational teammate.

His weaknesses: long range - 3 point accuracy in ABA was 32.2%, (you could say that was due to the lightweight ABA ball) & in NBA, 26.1%. He wasn't great at positional defense, and chose to ambush the passing lanes instead. Couldn't really shoot with the left hand.

[nycelt84]

I don't get the whole "Dr. J was pst his prime when he got to the NBA" stuff. A players prime is usually from around 26-30, and Julius was in the NBA during that time.

His best NBA season was probably in 1980 when he was 29. Watch some '80 Sixers games and you'll see that the athleticism was still there, that famous lay up in the finals vs the Lakers was from the 1980 finals. He was blowing by guys and finishing effortlessly.

In fact, check out his 1980 numbers compared to his first NBA season 1977 when he was 26.

1977- 21.6 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.4 bpg, 49.9 FG%
1980- 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%

Aside from being the best open court player of his era and one of the better scorers, Dr. J seemed to be an underrated passer, and he was clearly among the elite players in the league.

He made 7 consecutive all-nba teams and 5 all-nba first teams and 4 consecutive all-nba first teams from '80-'83. He also won the MVP award in 1981.

And prior to finally winning a title in '83, he led his team to 3 finals.

But no, I don't think he had the ability Kareem, Michael, Larry or Magic did.

Not to nitpick but Dr. J was born in 2/50 which means he was 30 years old during the 1980 playoffs. Some players also for some reason or the other peak around 23-25.

[Gotterdammerung]

I rank him 4th GOAT small forward after Bird, Hondo, Pippen, and before Barry and Baylor. LeBron James might make it his list when he's done, though, but too early to tell.

[alexandreben]

"Julius was the greatest open court player who ever played. "
------ Billy Cunningham in 2005

Due to the monopoly of TV broadcast by NBA, those big super stars were "ignored" during their peak, actually ABA had much better promotion than NBA, e.g. three-point line, one-on-one game, slam dunk contest, etc. ironically the one who came up with better idea got driven out of the game..:banghead:

God knows how great Dr.J's athlete ability was when he played in ABA, but the memory of the dunking contest in 1984 really brought up the doubt when he dunk from the foul line at the age of 34, he is the NO.1 small forward of Philly IMO:cheers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6E6gSPbkt8#t=2m20s

[LAClipsFan33]

I've had the privilege to actually see 3 ABA playoff games where Dr. J played. You really haven't seen his full game unless you saw the ABA Julius...although the 1976-1977 version of J was still crazy athletic...people would be truly amazed by the one handed moves he put together around the basket. It's like nothing you've ever seen. Dr. J was one of the most unique players ever IMO because of what he would do in the air palming the ball.

He put on more of a show in the ABA. Truly awesome...

[T-bomb 25]

Dr.J was pretty special.....my small foward rankings....

1.Bird
2.Dr.J
3.Baylor
4.B.King
5.Nique/Pippen I had to revise this....if it wasnt for B.Kings injuries he would have unquestionbly be the number #2 SF as it sits i have to bring Dr.J to number #2 he was as special as a player gets....

[ShaqAttack3234]

From what I've read and from the limited footage I've seen, the ABA was a more free, open court game, so naturally I'd expect more highlights.

But I'm skeptical about how much his knees affected him, I mean what could've possibly happened between the '76 season, his last in the ABA and widely regarded as his best and then the '77 season? Not to mention that he retained his athleticism as well as any player I can think of into his 30's.

[LAClipsFan33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHg1YF3kwo

[alenleomessi]

Underrated imo, he was considered one of the GOATs when he played, now he isnt in top 15 in some lists

[T-bomb 25]

From what I've read and from the limited footage I've seen, the ABA was a more free, open court game, so naturally I'd expect more highlights.

But I'm skeptical about how much his knees affected him, I mean what could've possibly happened between the '76 season, his last in the ABA and widely regarded as his best and then the '77 season? Not to mention that he retained his athleticism as well as any player I can think of into his 30's.Yes he was a amazing player....its tough to rank him part of me thinks he should be a a top 10 GOAT.....and then the other part says top 20....and yet when i look at my SF rankings i only have him at 4th....but i would'nt argue with anyone if he was 2nd...:confusedshrug:

[LAClipsFan33]

From what I've read and from the limited footage I've seen, the ABA was a more free, open court game, so naturally I'd expect more highlights.

But I'm skeptical about how much his knees affected him, I mean what could've possibly happened between the '76 season, his last in the ABA and widely regarded as his best and then the '77 season? Not to mention that he retained his athleticism as well as any player I can think of into his 30's.

I think it was less about his athleticism and more about the style of the NBA. He was much more flashy in the ABA. This is just speculation...but I think he may have put shackles on himself to fit better into the style of the NBA. It took him a little while to adjust and that's why his 3rd season in the NBA is better than his 1st

He was coming off of one of his best seasons in the ABA prior to the NBA, but was playing a much different style.

[T-bomb 25]

I remember watching him abuse Larry Bird and the Celtics and the Lakers,and it was as dominant as it gets his athletic ability even at 30 was far above everyone else's i think it somewhat over shadowed his very good skillset and how clutch he was...he was something else i have to give credit where its due...:bowdown:

[PHILA]

But I'm skeptical about how much his knees affected him, I mean what could've possibly happened between the '76 season, his last in the ABA and widely regarded as his best and then the '77 season? Not to mention that he You focusing on stats again? With that approach you should also note the difference in his FGA coming to a team that had what is believed to be the top collection of offensive talent in NBA history.

[jlip]

You focusing on stats again? With that approach you should also note the difference in his FGA coming to a team that had what is believed to be the top collection of offensive talent in NBA history.

Exactly....That is what I was alluding to in the OP. B-ball blogger, David Friedman, said that Dr. J personally told him that he was asked by the Sixers coaching staff when he joined the team to limit his scoring. He immediately went from attempting over 21 shots per game his last season in the ABA to just over 16 field goal attempts per game. Also he routinely, other than his final ABA season, played over 40 mpg. Once he joined the Sixers he never avg. anymore than a little over 36mpg. That seems to be reflective of more a change in role and system than a diminishing of physical skill and abilities.

[PHILA]

I think it was less about his athleticism and more about the style of the NBA. He was much more flashy in the ABA. This is just speculation...but I think he may have put shackles on himself to fit better into the style of the NBA. It took him a little while to adjust and that's why his 3rd season in the NBA is better than his 1st

He was coming off of one of his best seasons in the ABA prior to the NBA, but was playing a much different style.Imagine if McGinnis showed up in the Finals prior to G6. Chances are they would have been the champs.

In the playoffs Doc averaged 27/6/5, and in the Finals 30/7/5 with 40 pts in the elimination game.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1977.htm



The previous year New York City native Dr. J led the New York Nets to the championship with one of the top individual efforts in basketball history.


http://i53.tinypic.com/b7jntg.jpg


http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/12/game-to-remember-game-six-1976-aba.html

Game to Remember: Game Six, 1976 ABA Finals

What a treat it is to watch "Game to Remember: Game Six, 1976 ABA Finals"! NBA TV broadcast this program last night, with Julius Erving and Brian Taylor sharing their recollections of the last ABA game, a 112-106 championship-clinching victory by their New York Nets over the powerful Denver Nuggets. Erving won the regular season and Finals MVPs in 1976 as he led the Nets to their second title in his three years with the franchise, while Taylor made the All-Star team and led the league in three point field goal percentage; he is the only player to lead the ABA and the NBA in three point field goal percentage in a season. Denver, coached by Larry Brown and led by Hall of Famers David Thompson and Dan Issel, went 60-24 in 1975-76; their team was so good that the ABA All-Star Game that year consisted of the Nuggets versus All-Stars from all of the other teams in the league--and the Nuggets defeated an All-Star Team featuring two of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players (Erving and George Gervin) plus Artis Gilmore, Maurice Lucas and James (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/basketball_spotlight/114366) "Captain Late" (http://www.suite101.com/print_article.cfm/basketball_spotlight/114593) Silas (http://www.suite101.com/print_article.cfm/basketball_spotlight/114739)!

Kevin Loughery, the Nets' Coach at that time, recently said of Erving's play in the ABA, (http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/12/kevin-loughery-talks-about-coaching-dr.html) "He had more talent at that stage--we asked him to do everything. I really believe--and I've told this to Doc--that the NBA never saw the real Dr. J. I really believe that. In the ABA he did things that were incredible. We asked him to do everything. We won the (1976) championship playing against Denver when they had Bobby Jones, an All-League defensive player. He had the best playoff series in a championship series that I've ever seen one individual have." Erving's numbers certainly support Loughery's contention, as the Doctor led both teams in scoring (37.7 ppg), rebounding (14.2 rpg), assists (6.0 apg), steals (3.0 spg) and blocked shots (2.2 bpg) in the 1976 ABA Finals. Pat Putnam wrote a great Sports Illustrated story about the first four games of the series, (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1091087/index.htm) when Erving rang up 158 points, 51 rebounds, 22 assists, eight steals and seven blocked shots.

Game six was actually an understated performance by Erving in that series: he "only" had 31 points--tying his series low--but his floor game was staggering: 19 rebounds, five assists, five steals, four blocked shots. It is very interesting to watch the closing moments of that game; on each New York half court set possession, Erving received the ball above the top of the key and operated in a 1-4 set, much like Kobe Bryant or LeBron James do today. Erving attacked the basket, accepted the double team and kicked the ball to open teammates who either made shots or drew fouls against defenders who were closing out on them; in part because of the defensive attention that Erving drew, muscular shooting guard "Super" John Williamson scored 16 fourth quarter points. This is a 32 year old highlight but Erving's play has a decidedly modern look to it.

It is so tiresome nowadays to hear people talking about being the man or whose team it is. Everyone on the Nets knew that Erving was "the man" but Erving was also smart enough and unselfish enough to understand that when he was double-teamed someone else was open. This all goes back to something else that Loughery said about Erving: "That man was the best. He was the easiest superstar you could possibly coach." Nets President Rod Thorn, who was then Loughery's assistant coach, expressed similar sentiments when I spoke with him: (http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/07/rod-thorn-offers-his-take-on-dr-j-air.html) "He was the best teammate of all the players I’ve been involved with in 40-plus years of NBA basketball. He was our leading scorer, our leading rebounder, our leading shot blocker, our leading assist guy--you name it, he led our team in it, plus he was the leader of our team. He guarded the best forward every night, whether it was a small forward or a big forward. He took most of the big shots. Not only was he a great player, but more importantly he was a great teammate."

During "Game to Remember," Brian Taylor said this about Erving: "My memories and thoughts about Julius and being his teammate are not so much about being in the game but his behind the scenes leadership, his practice, his discipline, all of those things that are unseen (when) you see the highlights (and) that made him a phenomenal player and person. That's what comes to mind when I think about Julius 'Dr. J' Erving: what made him great was his discipline off the court and his personality, his human spirit."

ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere once famously declared that some players are franchise players but "For us, Dr. J is 'The League.'" Asked during "Game to Remember" about the burden of carrying such high expectations, Erving--with his characteristic grace, modesty and understanding of the larger picture--replied, "I didn't really feel that (pressure). When I came in I was so young, I was 21; in the last (ABA) game I was 26. So in that five year stretch my responsibilities were my job as a professional basketball player and my family responsibilities...There was so much going on in the world at that time--the Vietnam War was going on, so much political unrest, there was the threat of rioting in various cities around the country because of what had come out of the Sixties--and having gone through that, this was a joy ride, playing professional basketball. Carrying a league? All I was carrying was my jacket and my sneakers, showing up in the arena to play."

The Nets trailed 80-58 with just over 16 minutes remaining before rallying to win game six. Taylor said that this accomplishment contained a "life lesson" that he draws on to this day: "It was the determination and the teamwork and the togetherness that we had all the years that we played together that really stands out for me and 30 years later it feels strong still...It helps me when I'm teaching kids about overcoming adversity. We overcame adversity in a very short period of time but it's a life lesson for us as both Doc and I teach to our young people about how to survive. The game of basketball is so symbolic and that one game helps us as we talk and teach our young people."

Erving deserves the last word about the ABA's last game: "This game connects us for life. John (Williamson) is not with us anymore and Wendell Ladner, who was there in 1975, is not with us anymore, but we stay connected. When you win a championship, when you accomplish something that you set out to do--that you set as a goal months earlier--and then you actually achieve it, it has a bonding effect. It was a superior effort there, from seasoned veterans of five or six years to the rookies who were in the game...I think that the bonding effect is a reality and that's why I've always loved team sports. That's one of the things that separates team sports from individual sports."

[necya]

I rank him 4th GOAT small forward after Bird, Hondo, Pippen, and before Barry and Baylor. LeBron James might make it his list when he's done, though, but too early to tell.

i like this.
i have Bird, Pippen, Erving, Havlicek and Barry. King would be 2nd or 3rd if he wasn't injured.
the thing i didn't like from Baylor is he was a ball hog.
and like you said, LBJ will enter this list, we will see where in about 10 years.

and Erving was a very good individual and team defender.

[Round Mound]

One of the GOAT Finishers and Dunkers (in the level of MJ, Drexler, Pippen, Worthy, Chuck and Malone)

Solid Mid Range, Very Good in the Mid Range while mobile.

Great Lay Yups and Finger Rolls

Great Passer

Great Rebounder for a 6`6 1/2

In the ABA: one of the Best Defenders (DRT)

One of the Greatest Shot Blockers and Chase Down Blockers Ever

[PHILA]

Exactly....That is what I was alluding to in the OP. B-ball blogger, David Friedman, said that Dr. J personally told him that he was asked by the Sixers coaching staff when he joined the team to limit his scoring. Indeed he has some great stuff on Doc.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/08/great-julius-erving-stories.html

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/07/julius-ervings-all-time-starting-five.html

[LAClipsFan33]

Good info Phila

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Yes Dr J is one of the greatest forwards of all time, the ABA NBA merger killed him. But then again it killed lots of great players.

[Niquesports]

I rank him 4th GOAT small forward after Bird, Hondo, Pippen, and before Barry and Baylor. LeBron James might make it his list when he's done, though, but too early to tell.


WOw what an uniformed list.


Dr J
Baylor
Bird
Barry
Hondo
Pippen
THIS IS MORE LIKE IT.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You focusing on stats again? With that approach you should also note the difference in his FGA coming to a team that had what is believed to be the top collection of offensive talent in NBA history.

Yet despite taking 4 more shots per game in 1980 than 1977, he shot the ball more efficiently on a higher volume of shots. I don't think Dr. J declined until the 80's, and certainly not by 1980 when he was probably the 2nd best player in the entire league behind Kareem.

[PHILA]

Sports Illustrated - November 05, 1979 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1095569/index.htm)

Erving has revitalized knees.

The Erving knees, heavily braced against chronic weakness for six seasons, are no longer under wraps after Doc spent the summer undertaking a concentrated leg-strengthening program supervised by Joseph Zohar, a Long Island physical therapist. Erving opened the season with a 27-point night in Washington and followed it with an NBA career-high 44 points in the second game, against Houston. He had a 27-point average, six over his three-year NBA scoring rate, through last week.

"Julius is getting points more quietly than he did in the ABA," says Bobby Jones. "You used to stop and just watch him. Now he just goes and goes and you hardly notice him. When he scored 44 I thought it was more like 20." Which is not to say that he has given up flying like the Dr. J of yore. For the New York television audience on Friday night he did a couple of incredible scooping lay-in drives and one classic behind-the-head breakaway jam on his way to 27 points in a 127-116 win over the Knicks.

[NauruDude]

One word: AMAZING

[LEFT4DEAD]

One of my favourite players ever.
On one occasion Magic has said something like this about him: " I was in doubt during some games against J'. Will I continue with playing or stop and ask him to show that play one more time?"

He was the first highflyer in NBA. I heard that on one 76ers' game have came fans from Japan with a transparent saying: "We came from Japan to see Dr.". He was just that, Dr of basketball.
So important player for NBA, because he was the main bridge between 60's and 80's.
Great scorer with outstanding athletism. Good rebounder for his position. In his 3 years on Massachusets UNI he had smt like 20points and 20rebounds average.
After playing first 5 years in ABA with Nets, ABA has been canceled and removed as a league. Nets have came to the NBA but they could not afford the price, so they had to sell DR.J to Philly for couple of million $.
After coming to Philly, he right away has been their best player.
Many years he has been without a ring even though he was great in the playoffs, but some teams were too much to handle.
Then, Moses joined him, and in their first year they have beat Magic's and Kareem's Lakers.
That 76ers team is my favourite after Sonics.
What else to say about him. Great scorer, one of the best penetrators of all time with underrated mid-range shot and defense.
He was just too unique and to important for NBA as a league to be forgotten just like that.

[Gotterdammerung]

Relying on stats and hilghlight clips is a common pastime for the current YouTube generation but we should stick to eyewitnesses and articles from the times:

Doctor J did struggle enough with sore knees in the late seventies that led sports illustrated to feature an article in march 1979 titles "hey, what's up with the Doc?" in it, Erving's former ABA coach al Bianchi said: "Julie used to take off and really soar. And that's the sad part of seeing him now. The Doc can't fly no more " another coach said "I don't know if it's the big contract, plain disgust, concern about his longevity, or just that he's burnt out and can't do it nightly anymore but Dr. J is not the player we once knew. The electricity isn't there. The truth is that- except for a few playoff games in '77 and the all star games- the guy has been on vacation for three years. Somebody else has been masquerading as number 6. On a consistent basis Julius has played to about 40 percent, tops, of the ability he showed in the ABA."

[Gotterdammerung]

Bill Simmons has a great explanation why the doc didn't perform the same way in the NBA he did in the ABA:
stronger league postmerger
More elaborate defensive plans that forced doc to take 20 footers and foul him if he tried to dunk
Played the most stacked position: Walter Davis, Bernard King, dantley, Dandridge, Havlicek, Barry, Wilkes, Jones, Bird, Dominique, etc., etc.
Knees shot from riding coach and playing on bad floors for 5 years in ABA

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sports Illustrated - November 05, 1979 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1095569/index.htm)

Erving has revitalized knees.

The Erving knees, heavily braced against chronic weakness for six seasons, are no longer under wraps after Doc spent the summer undertaking a concentrated leg-strengthening program supervised by Joseph Zohar, a Long Island physical therapist. Erving opened the season with a 27-point night in Washington and followed it with an NBA career-high 44 points in the second game, against Houston. He had a 27-point average, six over his three-year NBA scoring rate, through last week.

"Julius is getting points more quietly than he did in the ABA," says Bobby Jones. "You used to stop and just watch him. Now he just goes and goes and you hardly notice him. When he scored 44 I thought it was more like 20." Which is not to say that he has given up flying like the Dr. J of yore. For the New York television audience on Friday night he did a couple of incredible scooping lay-in drives and one classic behind-the-head breakaway jam on his way to 27 points in a 127-116 win over the Knicks.


Interesting, so that may have been why he had such a great 1980 season.



Relying on stats and hilghlight clips is a common pastime for the current YouTube generation but we should stick to eyewitnesses and articles from the times:

Doctor J did struggle enough with sore knees in the late seventies that led sports illustrated to feature an article in march 1979 titles "hey, what's up with the Doc?" in it, Erving's former ABA coach al Bianchi said: "Julie used to take off and really soar. And that's the sad part of seeing him now. The Doc can't fly no more " another coach said "I don't know if it's the big contract, plain disgust, concern about his longevity, or just that he's burnt out and can't do it nightly anymore but Dr. J is not the player we once knew. The electricity isn't there. The truth is that- except for a few playoff games in '77 and the all star games- the guy has been on vacation for three years. Somebody else has been masquerading as number 6. On a consistent basis Julius has played to about 40 percent, tops, of the ability he showed in the ABA."

I don't use highlight clips to evaluate players, I'm talking about full games. It seems like that quote that Abe posted explains why Dr. J had a career season in 1980, or at least his best NBA season.

Simmons point about the league being stronger after the merger is the primary reason for Julius nevering matching his ABA numbers, IMO, as well as the style of the league which has a lot to do with his rebounding numbers in particular.

[Jasper]

you aren't going to get lists from me , simply because Dr.J is the perfect example of how hard it is to rank a player when he played in more than one league.
Was is important to know besides being a HOF'er and a champion is what he did for the history of basketball.
We need to think of the 50's and 60's and how 'organized' the play was.
Wilt is probably the first real creative player in league history.
Early 70's the playground became the back drop of the NBA in regards to creativity. (NY playgrounds was the mecca)
But who put the stamp on it was ABA/NBA Dr. J.
All kids including myself as well as NBA players as kids to pro's looked to Dr.J's creative genius on using the basketball court as his art form.

Nique' , MJ and a host of other players all state his creativity helped them think out side of the 'organized' play of basketball and become the players we see today.

[Niquesports]

you aren't going to get lists from me , simply because Dr.J is the perfect example of how hard it is to rank a player when he played in more than one league.
Was is important to know besides being a HOF'er and a champion is what he did for the history of basketball.
We need to think of the 50's and 60's and how 'organized' the play was.
Wilt is probably the first real creative player in league history.
Early 70's the playground became the back drop of the NBA in regards to creativity. (NY playgrounds was the mecca)
But who put the stamp on it was ABA/NBA Dr. J.
All kids including myself as well as NBA players as kids to pro's looked to Dr.J's creative genius on using the basketball court as his art form.

Nique' , MJ and a host of other players all state his creativity helped them think out side of the 'organized' play of basketball and become the players we see today.


Words have many meanings and connotation.People use Words to send subliminal messages "Organized' "Streetball" conscience or unconsciencely it is used to describe a lower form of basketball in the minds of some.

Basketball may be the most athletic sport of all sports. The need for a combination of speed, quickness,strength,vertical, and mental aspect is so much greater than any other sport.Yet individuals that show the gift to perform with these athletic skills are for some reason delegated to being just an athletic player with little mention to the hard work and IQ that player had to develop.
When a player makes a move that leaves the viewers in awe it's rarely mentioned the thought by that player of what was needed to make the play.
A behind the back between the legs dribble to split 2 defenders a reverse layup using the rim to get pass a defender,looking off a teammate to confuse the defender to open up a clear passing lane. All these take thought and IQ .It's very organized .A player doesn't have a higher IQ because he has limited Athletic ability.However,A player that can improvise to make a play using his athleticism shows a very high IQ.

[alexandreben]

It appears the Sixers legends get the treatment these days, from Wilt on down to Iverson, and all in between.
Philly, IMO, has the most talented players of all time, it would be incredible to watch an all-time 76ers team on the court... Wilt, Barkly, Dr.J, Greer, AI, Jackson, "Boston Strangler"(God.. I love that nickname!)...


BTW, despite how great he was, here's Dr.J's top 5 list, enjoy it...

Julius Erving told USA TODAY's Chris Colston that his all-time starting five "was, is, and always will be Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, with Connie Hawkins coming off the bench as my sixth man to play guard, forward and center."

[Gotterdammerung]

I don't use highlight clips to evaluate players, I'm talking about full games.

I'd love to see a single ABA game of the Doctor in his prime. Otherwise you're just talking through your hat once again. :facepalm

[Duncan21formvp]

Dr. J was in the twilight of his career when I started watching basketball in the mid-80's, but I've read quite a bit of information about him and understand that he completely dominated the ABA. On top of that I was reading where as he was ending his ABA career he was getting consideration as the greatest forward ever. One source said that he readily sacrificed much of his scoring and playing time after joining the Sixers because they wanted a balanced offense that featured at least 3 scorers who could avg. 20ppg as opposed to an offense centered around one dominant 30ppg scorer. He also is arguably the best mid sized shot blocker (6'7 or shorter) in league history.

Having said these things, if he didn't sacrifice so much of his game (i.e. scoring and playing time) once he joined the Sixers, is it possible that he would be spoken of in the same breath as say Kareem, Magic, Bird, and MJ? As a player was he actually that good?

He was great, too bad he was in the ABA in his peak though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd love to see a single ABA game of the Doctor in his prime. Otherwise you're just talking through your hat once again. :facepalm

I was talking about NBA Dr. J who was still effortlessly dunking on guys like Kareem and Walton, making ridiculous lay ups, blowing by guys and making it look easy in the open court. If you can show me some visual proof that he had lost a noticeable amount of ability by 1980 or 1981 then be my guest. I have a hard time Dr. J, or anyone being that much more athletic than Julius was in his best years with the Sixers, I wouldn't doubt that he had a little more spring in his legs in his early 20's, but not enough to call 1980 Dr. J past his prime.

He may have had down years in the 70's for whatever reason, but he seemed to sort that out in 1980, not just based on how well I've seen him play in games from that year, the athleticism he seemed to regularly display, but also Abe's quote from that article.

[Fatal9]

Doc looks explosive as hell in all the '77-'80 games I've seen of him (there are actually some of his ABA games in circulation). He was a better player in the NBA from what commentators have mentioned in some of the games I've watched, the consistency on his midrange shot improved a lot, played more intelligently (like all vets). So unless improving skills, game management and IQ suddenly don't matter, I can't see how a player of Doc's caliber peaked at 25, just seems like an excuse to say that we never saw the best of him in the NBA (in reality this is slighting his wonderful skillset if people think he was so dependent on athleticism that he peaked before 25).

I made a dunks/moves compilation of him a few months ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyc9VA_VxLA

That dunk at 20 second mark is from when he is 33. Amazing extension and explosiveness for that age. And the last dunk from free throw line when he is 34. The famous dunk over Cooper was when he was 33. He retained his athleticism really well (as well as anyone imo) into his 30s.

He was incredible in the '77 finals, that's him at his best imo...when he's in takeover mode scoring 30 or 40 and making spectacular plays (dunked on Walton a million times in that series). I don't think it's fair to look at his numbers from '76 to '77, because you could see in that series that he had a gear where he could average 30 a game if he wanted but the team had so much talent that it wouldn't have made sense to. That said, he's still not putting up his ABA numbers in the NBA like averaging 27/16/4, or 32/12/4/3, he was good but not that good. You could honestly rank him anywhere from top 15 to top 25, it's tough to say but I don't care really, I just love watching him play even if it's 30 years later.

[KevinNYC]

Dr J. talked about how he developed his style of dunking. He was playing a college All American game and he wasn't considered among the best because everyone felt he played in a weak league and his numbers were inflated. In practice he said there were about ten guys with stronger reps than his. In the game, he went up against Artis Gilmore (7'2") and another tall well-known guy who's name I forget. He said he threw it down so hard he landed on his back. He said that was when he said, I can dunk on anyone and he was never go to have any fear again. He definitely changed the game. The difference between him and Michael might be that Jordan was a better outside shooter (Jordan really developed his shot over time) and Jordan was a better defender all over the court. His leaping ability combined with his some really big hands, made him able to do shots no one else could conceive. Windmill reverse layups and finger rolls. If I remember correctly, he didn't go to his left well.

[KevinNYC]

Also Dr. J had a much better foul line dunk than Jordan. (Did Jordan ever throw down one of those in a game? I know the Dr. did.) Jordan would hold his front arm in front of him and reach out to the basket. Dr J. held his arm straight and his body would get closer to the rim and then he just tomahawk it through. Dr. J was one of the best fask break finisher of all time. Even if you had two guys back, he was able to get two clear steps, it was over. Didn't matter who was back there either....as the compilation of dunks over Walton and Jabbar can attest.

[Gotterdammerung]

I was talking about NBA Dr. J who was still effortlessly dunking on guys like Kareem and Walton, making ridiculous lay ups, blowing by guys and making it look easy in the open court. If you can show me some visual proof that he had lost a noticeable amount of ability by 1980 or 1981 then be my guest.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) But then again, I never credited you with logic in the first place. :lol:

I have a hard time Dr. J, or anyone being that much more athletic than Julius was in his best years with the Sixers, I wouldn't doubt that he had a little more spring in his legs in his early 20's, but not enough to call 1980 Dr. J past his prime.
Shaqattack is being disingenuous again, i see. What else is new? :oldlol:

You clearly said that you saw complete games. Now, when asked if you had ABA games at hand, you backpedal quickly in a cloud of dust. :sleeping

Sure, he seems athletic in NBA games during 1977-80 , dunking on Bill Walton in 77 finals, but is that enough to conclude that he was the same guy? Perhaps according to Shaqattack's logic, but some of us aren't as easily satisfied.

Plus you also dated an athlete's prime to be 26 - 30. Now you're insisting that he at 30 was the equivalent of his peak during the ABA days. :facepalm


He may have had down years in the 70's for whatever reason, but he seemed to sort that out in 1980, not just based on how well I've seen him play in games from that year, the athleticism he seemed to regularly display, but also Abe's quote from that article.
That's a single article in direct contrast to many, many, many others (read Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, for example) that clearly said he wasn't the same in the NBA - Hubie Brown (http://*********.com/interviews/brown_friedman.htm) - due to many factors, and due to the obvious fact that an athlete at 30 is no longer at the athletic peak of his career. Hard to put all your eggs in a single basket, even if he was having a great year. In fact, Dr. J suffered from tendinitis and arthritis (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/frwiki/en/Julius_Erving) during his ABA days and had to stop playing at Rucker park during the summers to have his knees recuperate for the upcoming season. Plus in 1979-80 Coach Cunningham had the team feature Doctor J more that season, hence the 29.6 output.

Basically, a basketball player reaches his athletic prime much earlier, at 25, 26 or so, and if his work ethic is off the charts, he can make up for any loss in athleticism with smarts that conserve energy, waste no motion like Kevin Garnett, etc., etc., and continue to maintain his performance at a high level. Then the stamina goes after 30-32, and no matter how smart you are, your body can no longer respond.

Check the careers of many other high-flying dunkers like Dominque Wilkins, David Thompson, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, and you'll see the same thing - they reached their athletic peak early, and depending on circumstances, their prime extended good performance. Doctor J is no different. :no:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaqattack is being disingenuous again, i see. What else is new? :oldlol:

:oldlol: at this clown.


You clearly said that you saw complete games. Now, when asked if you had ABA games at hand, you backpedal quickly in a cloud of dust. :sleeping

I never claimed to have full ABA games, idiot, I've seen many Sixers games from the late 70's/early 80's, though and he was extremely explosive in those games.


Sure, he seems athletic in NBA games during 1977-80 , dunking on Bill Walton in 77 finals, but is that enough to conclude that he was the same guy? Perhaps according to Shaqattack's logic, but some of us aren't as easily satisfied.

I'm talking about just about every game I've seen from that era he's looked explosive in.


Plus you also dated an athlete's prime to be 26 - 30. Now you're insisting that he at 30 was the equivalent of his peak during the ABA days. :facepalm

A basketball player's overall prime is usually between 26-30 actually and typically, players don't lose much, if any athleticism until 30 or so.


That's a single article in direct contrast to many, many, many others (read Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, for example) that clearly said he wasn't the same in the NBA - Hubie Brown (http://*********.com/interviews/brown_friedman.htm) - due to many factors, and due to the obvious fact that an athlete at 30 is no longer at the athletic peak of his career. Hard to put all your eggs in a single basket, even if he was having a great year. In fact, Dr. J suffered from tendinitis and arthritis (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/frwiki/en/Julius_Erving) during his ABA days and had to stop playing at Rucker park during the summers to have his knees recuperate for the upcoming season. Plus in 1979-80 Coach Cunningham had the team feature Doctor J more that season, hence the 29.6 output.

He featured Dr. J more and not only did his scoring end up at an NBA career high for him, but his FG% reached what was then a career high, regardless of league(though he topped it in '81 and '82).


Basically, a basketball player reaches his athletic prime much earlier, at 25, 26 or so, and if his work ethic is off the charts, he can make up for any loss in athleticism with smarts that conserve energy, waste no motion like Kevin Garnett, etc., etc., and continue to maintain his performance at a high level. Then the stamina goes after 30-32, and no matter how smart you are, your body can no longer respond.

And Dr. J entered the NBA at 26 years old so by your 25-26 figure he'd have been at the tail end of his athletic peak, and the athletic decline is typically minimal until around 30 or so, but a player usually improves his all around game and typically doesn't peak until their late 20's, and as Fatal pointed out, commentators noticed this with Dr. J.


Check the careers of many other high-flying dunkers like Dominque Wilkins, David Thompson, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, and you'll see the same thing - they reached their athletic peak early, and depending on circumstances, their prime extended good performance. Doctor J is no different. :no:

Yet, how many were past their prime? Drexler had arguably his best season at 29 years old(almost 30 at the time of the playoffs). Carter's 2007 season ranks among his best, and he was still among the most athletic players in the league, and not only was he 30 that year, but he had also had knee injuries that caused him to miss a significant amount of time around '02/'03.

Nique's prime seem to last pretty damn long. He averaged 30 ppg at 33 years old.

An athletic peak is different from a player's overall peak, and most of the guys you mentioned didn't lose that much athletically until they were close to or around 30.

Here's Kobe at 29, keep in mind that he was in his 12th season and he had 2 knee surgeries already. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uJ8i_YyRtI

[D-Wade316]

Bump

[jlauber]

Dr. J was a truly phenomenal athlete, but more than that, he was a very SKILLED basketball player. IMHO, basketball requires much more skill, than pure athleticism. Otherwise, clods like James White and Javale Mcgee would be among the elite, and players like Bird and McHale would never have made it to the NBA.

How does one explain a 6-8 225 lb. Dennis Rodman outrebounding the likes of 7-1 Shaq, 7-1 Robinson, 6-11 Ewing, and 6-10 Hakeem....and by HUGE margins? Or 6-9 Kevin Love RUNNING AWAY with the rebounding title last year in a league that included Dwight Howard? Or 6-7 Ben Wallace, who would airball shots from point-blank range, winning two rebounding titles in the 00's? And, yet Wallace, despite having no offensive skills whatsoever, was a DPOY.

The NBA garbage bin has been filled with MANY 7-3+ footers who could barely tie their shoes, and yet players like 6-5 Charles Barkley were winning rpg titles. Hell, a 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever was among the best rebounders in the league, in an NBA that was littered with inept 7-0 footers.

Dr. J was an amazing athlete, to be sure, but he was also as SKILLED an NBA player that has ever played the game.

[Shepseskaf]

I got to watch him at MSG, but it was around 84-85 when he was clearly in decline. After one game, as everybody was leaving the Garden some random dude said loudly, "The Doc ain't operating," and pretty much everyone around agreed.

Interesting, I didn't know before that Doc Rivers got his nickname for wearing a Dr. J shirt when he was at Marquette -- at least according to Wikipedia.

[PTB Fan]

Julius was flat out good. He might have a case for GOAT.

While he did have some troubles with his knees, he did face a better, more physical competition who played tougher and better overall defense against him. He faced more elite players at his position as well.

[bizil]

Well Doc was so good he was the greatest SF of all time until Bird got going. If u include his ABA stats (which I feel u should because the NBA absorbed ABA teams) he has over 30,000 points. He transcended basketball and was really the template for the new NBA marketing schemes coming around the corner. Bird and Magic took the torch from Doc and then MJ took the L to ultimate heights.

Doc's all around game is vastly underrated by many. He was a great rebounder for a SF, a very good defender, and a very good passer. He just didn't have PG type handle or consistent three point range. He was the premier perimeter player in the world for many years, even during his ABA days. I would say Kareem and Doc were the top two players in the world and then were joined by the likes of Moses, Magic, and Bird. He was a revolutionary player who changed his position and the game of bball for ever. The term icon and god are befitting for the Doctor. Hell if I had to pick a player in ANY SPORT to market to the masses and promote the sport it would be Doc.

[bizil]

From what I've read and from the limited footage I've seen, the ABA was a more free, open court game, so naturally I'd expect more highlights.

But I'm skeptical about how much his knees affected him, I mean what could've possibly happened between the '76 season, his last in the ABA and widely regarded as his best and then the '77 season? Not to mention that he retained his athleticism as well as any player I can think of into his 30's.

Great point about Doc keeping his athletic ability. Doc even moved to the SG spot later in his career as well. Doc as well as Nique (who took over for Doc as the premier freak athlete scoring machine at the SF) both aged great in terms of being great players AND great athletes.

[jlitt]

Doc saved the NBA.

Late 70's were one of the worst periods in the NBA history. The Biggest star in basketball was in the ABA, they competed against another league which was deemed inferior but was much more entertaining...Dunk Contest,3 pointers, etc.

When Doc came to the NBA it was the end of the ABA, and gave the NBA its biggest star till Jordan. From 77-85 Dr J was the most popular player in the League. When he retired it was unlike anything Ive ever seen. Every team gave him gifts such as motorcycles were presented to him and pregame and half time ceremonies. He was the Nba's ambassador and Jordan always said he felt he had big shoes to fill when Dr J passed him the torch.


Dr J saved the Nba...never forget.

[bizil]

Doc saved the NBA.

Late 70's were one of the worst periods in the NBA history. The Biggest star in basketball was in the ABA, they competed against another league which was deemed inferior but was much more entertaining...Dunk Contest,3 pointers, etc.

When Doc came to the NBA it was the end of the ABA, and gave the NBA its biggest star till Jordan. From 77-85 Dr J was the most popular player in the League. When he retired it was unlike anything Ive ever seen. Every team gave him gifts such as motorcycles were presented to him and pregame and half time ceremonies. He was the Nba's ambassador and Jordan always said he felt he had big shoes to fill when Dr J passed him the torch.


Dr J saved the Nba...never forget.

Well said! Dr. J was really the first ambassador of the new age NBA. Kareem and Doc were the two best players, but Kareem wasn't cut out for an ambassador role. It takes a certain kind of charisma and charm for that role. Doc was the original. He was SO vital to two different leagues. He was the key component of the ABA. The ABA had some great revolutionary type players come through there. Gervin and Thompson revolutionized the SG position at the same time Doc did if for the SF. But Doc was the King. They say he was the MAIN reason for the merger to being with. He came to the NBA and immediately became its most marketable star.

He made the L more prominent in terms of mass appeal and set the stage for Magic and Bird. Who then set the table for MJ. I've always felt that MJ was the guy fans jumped to cause we were looking for that next great high flyer to be the face of the L along with Bird and Magic. We were so used to having Doc, Magic, and Bird as the kings. Each guy was different than the other, so u have something for everybody. Once Doc slowed down, there was a huge void. So MJ was epic in that role. However, Doc had a certain cool, dignity, and grace than MJ couldn't even touch. I've always felt if I had to pick one athlete from any sport to be an ambassador, it would be Dr.J. Even to this day.

[D-Wade316]

Well said! Dr. J was really the first ambassador of the new age NBA. Kareem and Doc were the two best players, but Kareem wasn't cut out for an ambassador role. It takes a certain kind of charisma and charm for that role. Doc was the original. He was SO vital to two different leagues. He was the key component of the ABA. The ABA had some great revolutionary type players come through there. Gervin and Thompson revolutionized the SG position at the same time Doc did if for the SF. But Doc was the King. They say he was the MAIN reason for the merger to being with. He came to the NBA and immediately became its most marketable star.

He made the L more prominent in terms of mass appeal and set the stage for Magic and Bird. Who then set the table for MJ. I've always felt that MJ was the guy fans jumped to cause we were looking for that next great high flyer to be the face of the L along with Bird and Magic. We were so used to having Doc, Magic, and Bird as the kings. Each guy was different than the other, so u have something for everybody. Once Doc slowed down, there was a huge void. So MJ was epic in that role. However, Doc had a certain cool, dignity, and grace than MJ couldn't even touch. I've always felt if I had to pick one athlete from any sport to be an ambassador, it would be Dr.J. Even to this day.
:applause:

[The Iron Fist]

So good that Jordan copied his style, and so good that Dr. Dre, named himself after Dr. J.