Kobe Vs MJ Documenary [Very Interesting]

[LosBulls]

Not at all trying to start a flame war, maybe ISH can have a mature discussion about this for just time? No name calling, just a mature grown folks discussion.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVZvKDRPNQ
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RbLBGZwiR4

Shaq is quoted by saying "I told Kobe yesterday that he was my idol, and that he is the best player in the league"

Phil Jackson also speaks in this documentary as he has coached both Kobe and Michael.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Kobe Vs Jordan Head to Head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

Jordan says in this video:

"I see similarities in his game aswell as my game,and I think if he maintains a certain mental approach he can become...great"

^^

He wanted to say "me"


Let's get this discussion started :)

PS. Think before cussing somebody out.

[Miserio]

There's no need to have a discussion about something we all know.

Kobe = GREAT player
Mj = GOAT

[LosBulls]

There's no need to have a discussion about something we all know.

Kobe = GREAT player
Mj = GOAT

What if they were equal? Why is it that no matter what Kobe does he can't be better than Jordan?

Coming from the guy with Jordan in his avatar.

[Walduś]

kobe's better.

[LosBulls]

kobe's better.

Care to explain?

[Miserio]

What if they were equal? Why is it that no matter what Kobe does he can't be better than Jordan?

Coming from the guy with Jordan in his avatar.
Because Kobe's past his prime and in his prime he wasn't better than Jordan, so, logically, he's not gonna be his equal

[LosBulls]

Because Kobe's past his prime and in his prime he wasn't better than Jordan, so, logically, he's not gonna be his equal

Kobe didn't have Pippen or Rodman in his prime. He had Kwame Brown.

[Miserio]

Kobe didn't have Pippen or Rodman in his prime. He had Kwame Brown.
Yes, but i'm not talking about his achievements, i'm talking about his skills.
Prime Michael was WAY more skilled, he understands better the game of basketball, he's a MUCH better defensive player, more athletic, more mentally tough, natural born winner.

A superstar makes teammates better players, Mj MADE scottie, kukoc, kerr, paxson, grant better players. I don't think Kobe has the same influence with his teammates.

[LosBulls]

Yes, but i'm not talking about his achievements, i'm talking about his skills.
Prime Michael was WAY more skilled, he understands better the game of basketball, he's a MUCH better defensive player, more athletic, more mentally tough, natural born winner.

A superstar makes teammates better players, Mj MADE scottie, kukoc, kerr, paxson, grant better players. I don't think Kobe has the same influence with his teammates.

Kobe made Ariza,Lamar,Brown,Vujacic,Farmar,GASOL,and Fisher better players.
Gasol was nothing before he got on the Lakers. Another example is Ariza, once he left the Lakers he just turned in to a role player while on the Lakers he was the main guy coming off the bench for the champions.

[Miserio]

Kobe made Ariza,Lamar,Brown,Vujacic,Farmar,GASOL,and Fisher better players.
Gasol was nothing before he got on the Lakers. Another example is Ariza, once he left the Lakers he just turned in to a role player while on the Lakers he was the main guy coming off the bench for the champions.
Gasol was a superstar before he got on the lakers, the others are just random players, you can't compare.

[Walduś]

Gasol was a superstar before he got on the lakers, the others are just random players, you can't compare.
lol

[sirkeelma]

Kobe didn't have Pippen or Rodman in his prime. He had Kwame Brown.
Never heard of Shaquille O'neal?

[Miserio]

lol
He played in a horrible team, but he was the top scorer of that team and he played in a couple of all star games before he got in the lakers, and I don't think he improved much since he's in LA, he's just in a better team

[N0Skillz]

Never heard of Shaquille O'neal?

Never heard of the word prime?

[sirkeelma]

Never heard of the word prime?
Prime Kobe 2005 with Caron Butler and Lamar Odom: 34-48 record.

[LosBulls]

Prime Kobe 2005 with Caron Butler and Lamar Odom: 34-48 record.

Caron and Lamar were nowhere near what they are today.

[scm5]

Caron and Lamar were nowhere near what they are today.

This, plus I think the Lakers would have made the playoffs if Kobe didn't get injured.

[scm5]

BTW, I am a Laker fan and I don't think Kobe can be the player MJ was in terms of sheer dominance. I think Kobe has a chance to be "greater" than MJ, but only by winning championships... maybe 3 more.

My reasoning is that while I don't think Bill Russell was ever as good a player as Wilt, he knew how to win. Bill Russell is considered by many to be equal to or greater than Wilt, and I think Kobe can become like Russell to MJ's Wilt.

I don't know though, Kobe might never be viewed in that light, but I do think that he has a chance if he continues to win.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Another Kobe groupie trying to assert Kobe's equivalence with Jordan when absolutely nothing at all supports it. Shocking. :oldlol:

[asdf1990]

5mvps/6fmvps/dpoy in 14 years> 1 MVP/2 fmvp in 14 years.

[Walduś]

81>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>69

[asdf1990]

81>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>69

9scoring titles>>>>>>>>>>> 2 scoring titles.

[Walduś]

9scoring titles>>>>>>>>>>> 2 scoring titles.
chucker.

[OldSchoolBBall]

9scoring titles>>>>>>>>>>> 2 scoring titles.

10, actually.

[branslowski]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.

[asdf1990]

chucker.

50%fg>> 45% u mad?

[branslowski]

50%fg>> 45% u mad?

49%...>>45%

[Walduś]

50%fg>> 45% u mad?
4 3's per game vs 2 3's per game you mad?

[PHILA]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.How about D?


Wilt Chamberlain interview 1996.

*Watching Jordan

"To me, the better part of his game is his defense. He becomes very intense and disrupts in the same manner that K.C. Jones did for the Celtics," Chamberlain said. "There are guys who play Jordan who are afraid to put the ball down and afraid to pass. They're always looking and saying, 'Where the hell is Michael?' He'll steal the ball or cause you to do something you don't want to do. But Michael understands that we have always loved numbers and scoring and the point system. The people who score the touchdowns or score the baskets are the guys who get all the applause."

[jrong]

Kobe's skills are comparable to Jordan's.

Jordan's efficiency is comparable to LeBron's. Kobe's efficiency is comparable to Allen Iverson's.

/Thread.

[branslowski]

How about D?


Wilt Chamberlain interview 1996.

*Watching Jordan

"To me, the better part of his game is his defense. He becomes very intense and disrupts in the same manner that K.C. Jones did for the Celtics," Chamberlain said. "There are guys who play Jordan who are afraid to put the ball down and afraid to pass. They're always looking and saying, 'Where the hell is Michael?' He'll steal the ball or cause you to do something you don't want to do. But Michael understands that we have always loved numbers and scoring and the point system. The people who score the touchdowns or score the baskets are the guys who get all the applause."


No doubt Jordan is the better team defender...But I've seen when Kobe wanted to take a guy out of the game, he geared up and became a lock down defending monster...Not on the consistant level of Jordan though, but pure mono e mono lock your man down, when Kobe is geared he's one of the greatest.

[InspiredLebowski]

If there's a troll post you don't have to reply to it and go back and forth page after page and ruin a thread.

[asdf1990]

4 3's per game vs 2 3's per game you mad?


33ppg in the playoffs>>> 25ppg

[kizut1659]

I have been always saying that its ridiculous to say that Kobe is not top 10 GOAT but he is no Jordan. He is the closest thing to Jordan we have seen but he is just not as good - kind of "MJ light" and i do not mean this as an insult - simplpy put though, Kobe scores a bit less, is somewhat less efficient, averages slightly less rebounds, assists, and steals, and is not quite the defender Jordan was. Also, Kobe never had truly great finals series - there is nothing like Jordan's massacre of the Suns in 1993 or moments against Utah.

[Leviathon1121]

No doubt Jordan is the better team defender...But I've seen when Kobe wanted to take a guy out of the game, he geared up and became a lock down defending monster...Not on the consistant level of Jordan though, but pure mono e mono lock your man down, when Kobe is geared he's one of the greatest.

You are right, every now and then, Kobe decides to care about defense. This by all means makes him Jordan's equal on the defensive end. Kobe fans...unbelievable.

[branslowski]

You are right, every now and then, Kobe decides to care about defense. This by all means makes him Jordan's equal on the defensive end. Kobe fans...unbelievable.

Thought I said Jordan was the better defender...:facepalm

[PurpleChuck]

Waldus.:banghead: :rant :banghead: :rant :banghead:

[Collie]

Why are there these types of threads all the time? Kobe is not the player MJ was, nor will he ever be, but that doesn't mean that he can't be honored and respected for the player he is. 5 championships, an MVP, 2 finals MVPs, and a top 10 player of all time. No need for the (addmitedly inevitable) Jordan comparisons. I'm pretty sure a lot more people would appreciate Kobe if all the fanboys did not raise him up to impossibly high standards.

[Leviathon1121]

Thought I said Jordan was the better defender...:facepalm

you also said this...


Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.

How can their skill sets be equal, when Kobe is clearly an inferior defensive player?

[Disaprine]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/think_of_the_children_186.jpg

[branslowski]

you also said this...



How can their skill sets be equal, when Kobe is clearly an inferior defensive player?

Inferior playing Team defense and jumping passing lanes....

If Kobe and Jordan were to go one on one skill vs skill, it would be a close game.

[ginobli2311]

Inferior playing Team defense and jumping passing lanes....

If Kobe and Jordan were to go one on one skill vs skill, it would be a close game.

now you are going to one on one?
:roll:


and it wouldn't be close really. jordan's quickness would destroy kobe. kobe is also not nearly as strong. jordan would either blow by him or abuse him in the post. kobe could get hot from the outside, but my guess is that you'd see kobe shooting a lot contested jumpers and really struggling to get anything going offensively. if they played 10 games to 15.

my guess is jordan wins 8 or 9 and wins comfortably in most games 1 on 1.

and 1 on 1 means very little as you know. i'd take dirk over duncan 1 on 1 for sure. obviously not a good indicator of how good a player is.

but again jordan would destroy kobe 1 on 1.

[branslowski]

now you are going to one on one?
:roll:

Yes because this a Kobe vs Jordan thread, skill vs skill.....I've already admitted basketball wise, stats, accolades, Jordan is the greatest. Just pointing out as pure BBall players, they are equal. (Comparing prime vs Prime ofcource)...

[Walduś]

but again jordan would destroy kobe 1 on 1.
any proof? nope. kobe wins.

[ginobli2311]

Yes because this a Kobe vs Jordan thread, skill vs skill.....I've already admitted basketball wise, stats, accolades, Jordan is the greatest. Just pointing out as pure BBall players, they are equal. (Comparing prime vs Prime ofcource)...

nah mate. jordan has the huge edge in raw strength/athleticism. i'm not trying to hate, but i honestly don't know how kobe could stop jordan. people forget just how quick MJ was....he had the quickness off the first step of guards. kobe couldn't defend that. and joran has the edge in strength. so how would kobe stop him? if he pressed up jordan would blow by him or back him down. if kobe played off....jordan would just rain jumpers on him.

defensively jordan would have a much easier time stopping kobe. in fact, i really think jordan could pretty much shut him down.

[ginobli2311]

any proof? nope. kobe wins.

the proof is in the years watching jordan destroy people on both ends to an extent kobe never has.

i have evidence. you have none. kobe struggles against defenders that play him physcial....and jordan would muscle kobe and have superior quickness to stay in front and have the size to bother his jumper.

how would kobe score? honestly. he couldn't back jordan down because he's weaker, he couldn't blow by jordan because he's not as quick, and he couldn't raise up and drill jumpers because jordan had the size to bother his jumper.

[G-Funk]

1 vs 2 GOATS! Jordan and Kobe will be sitting at the top of the GOATS list when is all said and done
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/thug_law2002/Screenshot2011-01-14at14333PM.png

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/thug_law2002/kobevsmj-1.jpg

[G-Funk]

Career avg

Had Kobe came out at same age as MJ

28ppg 6rpg 5apg 46%

Jordan

30ppg 6rpg 5apg 49%

[ginobli2311]

Yes because this a Kobe vs Jordan thread, skill vs skill.....I've already admitted basketball wise, stats, accolades, Jordan is the greatest. Just pointing out as pure BBall players, they are equal. (Comparing prime vs Prime ofcource)...

also...they aren't equal obviously skill vs skill. all the stuff you mention happened because jordan was a better basketball player. its really not complicated.

kobe is a better range shooter and free throw shooter. thats it though. jordan was better at every other aspect of the game really:

better rim attacker/finisher. better passer. better post player. better defender. better rebounder. better clutch performer.

and then you can get into consistency and ability to raise his game when the going gets tough to a different level. kobe has never really done this.

[branslowski]

nah mate. jordan has the huge edge in raw strength/athleticism. i'm not trying to hate, but i honestly don't know how kobe could stop jordan. people forget just how quick MJ was....he had the quickness off the first step of guards. kobe couldn't defend that. and joran has the edge in strength. so how would kobe stop him? if he pressed up jordan would blow by him or back him down. if kobe played off....jordan would just rain jumpers on him.

defensively jordan would have a much easier time stopping kobe. in fact, i really think jordan could pretty much shut him down.

Nah, Kobe is an amazing 1on1 ball player...I've seen Kobe shut Bron down on 1 on 1 plays...I have no doubt in my mind that Kobe vs Jordan 1 on 1 would go down to the wire....I've seen highlights of Jordan getting owned 1 on 1 by less atheletic players...Sure it's happened to Kobe before aswell....But players with these 2 guy's skill set's in their primes would find way's to score on eachother....lmao at the notion of Jordan shutting Kobe down 1 on 1..Primed 05-06 Kobe....

Anyway....Jordan is the GOAT...But skill for skill him and Kobe are equal. I'll leave it at that.

[ginobli2311]

Nah, Kobe is an amazing 1on1 ball player...I've seen Kobe shut Bron down on 1 on 1 plays...I have no doubt in my mind that Kobe vs Jordan 1 on 1 would go down to the wire....I've seen highlights of Jordan getting owned 1 on 1 by less atheletic players...Sure it's happened to Kobe before aswell....But players with these 2 guy's skill set's in their primes would find way's to score on eachother....lmao at the notion of Jordan shutting Kobe down 1 on 1..Primed 05-06 Kobe....

Anyway....Jordan is the GOAT...But skill for skill him and Kobe are equal. I'll leave it at that.

thats cool. agree to disagree. and lebron is a really bad example. lebron would be ten times easier to stop than prime jordan. jordan would be much quicker and a much better shooter. it would be like trying to stop prime wade...but if wade was more athletic, a bit quicker, stronger, better post player, and a much better outside shooter. i just don't see kobe stopping that. but i do see jordan giving kobe fits defensively.

[branslowski]

the proof is in the years watching jordan destroy people on both ends to an extent kobe never has.

i have evidence. you have none. kobe struggles against defenders that play him physcial....and jordan would muscle kobe and have superior quickness to stay in front and have the size to bother his jumper.

how would kobe score? honestly. he couldn't back jordan down because he's weaker, he couldn't blow by jordan because he's not as quick, and he couldn't raise up and drill jumpers because jordan had the size to bother his jumper.

Wow....So if these 2 Great 1 on 1 Scoring Machine BBall players played 1 on 1, Jordan would win 11-0?

I mean my goodness, ppl act like Jordan is f*cking king dingaling tut...Holy f*cking shit...Kobe has busted players ass's who play better man to man defense than Jordan ever has...Come on with this nonsense..:oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Wow....So if these 2 Great 1 on 1 Scoring Machine BBall players played 1 on 1, Jordan would win 11-0?

I mean my goodness, ppl act like Jordan is f*cking king dingaling tut...Holy f*cking shit...Kobe has busted players ass's who play better man to man defense than Jordan ever has...Come on with this nonsense..:oldlol:

no. i said he would win 8 out of 10. i don't think that is far fetched at all. we are talking about prime ****ing jordan here mate. what do you expect?

please explain to me how kobe would score on prime MJ.

and what players has kobe busted that play better man to man defense than jordan? lol if you say bruce bowen....please don go to bowen. for your sake...please don't.

[branslowski]

no. i said he would win 8 out of 10. i don't think that is far fetched at all. we are talking about prime ****ing jordan here mate. what do you expect?

please explain to me how kobe would score on prime MJ.

Anyway he feels like it...I've seen Kobe take a bigger stronger LeBron and Ron Artest in the post...F*ck outta here if he can't do the same to Jordan...1 on 1 ball is like they are at practice...Kobe would go apeshit, same with Jordan....Kobe and Jordan eing the same height wouldn't even have trouble poppin Jay's on eachother...

(I swear the fojesus you better not say Jordan is stronger than LeBron and Ron)

[G-Funk]

dick, if Kobe can back up Lebron he can surely back up MJ, this guy is a idiot.


And he's comparing a Jordan that was able to handcheck, trust me had Kobe been able to hand check, he would be just as good as MJ on defense aside from help defense.

[ginobli2311]

Anyway he feels like it...I've seen Kobe take a bigger stronger LeBron and Ron Artest in the post...F*ck outta here if he can't do the same to Jordan...1 on 1 ball is like they are at practice...Kobe would go apeshit, same with Jordan....Kobe and Jordan eing the same height wouldn't even have trouble poppin Jay's on eachother...

(I swear the fojesus you better not say Jordan is stronger than LeBron and Ron)

i don't think lebron is close to jordan in terms of defense. prime artest is in the class of jordan....but i think jordan was better (especially in his prime).

and i'm obviously not saying kobe wouldn't score a point. i'm talking about scoring consistently. kobe would not be able to just take jordan into the post and abuse him. that simply would not happen. kobe certainly would not beat jordan on a first step and would struggle shooting over him.

jordan said it himself. "no contest" ...going on to say that he'd have a much better chance to stop kobe than kobe could stop him.

jordan would win 8 out 10....and if they played to 15 he'd win around 15 to 10 on average imo.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe didn't have Pippen or Rodman in his prime. He had Kwame Brown.

You call 34 -36 yrs old Rodman in his prime? :facepalm

Rodman's prime was when he won back-to-back DPOY in 1989 & 1990 playing against MJ.

Kobe had prime Shaq to ride on winning 3 rings free as dominant as MVP Shaq was in 1st 3 championships.

Kobe also had all star dominant Big man called Gasol.

Kobe always had dominent big man to carry his weak finals performances

MJ had poor big man called Cartright & Longly & MJ's brilliance in Finals overshadowed their weak center position.

[branslowski]

i don't think lebron is close to jordan in terms of defense. prime artest is in the class of jordan....but i think jordan was better (especially in his prime).

and i'm obviously not saying kobe wouldn't score a point. i'm talking about scoring consistently. kobe would not be able to just take jordan into the post and abuse him. that simply would not happen. kobe certainly would not beat jordan on a first step and would struggle shooting over him.

jordan said it himself. "no contest" ...going on to say that he'd have a much better chance to stop kobe than kobe could stop him.

jordan would win 8 out 10....and if they played to 15 he'd win around 15 to 10 on average imo.

:oldlol: I'm not understanding how Kobe wouldn't get Jordan in the post, when he's done it to Ron ad Bron countless times?...And Ron is a better man to man defender than Jordan....Jordan just has very well passing lane steal skills, and help D...

If they played 10 times....Jordan wins 6 and Kobe wins 4....But with Jordan winning the 2 greater game like 11-9, and 12-10...Going back and forward scoring on eachother all the time.

[Knoe Itawl]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.

This is the reason I consider guys like you, who are somewhat better than your hardcore waldus, griffmoney type groupies to not be far off from that category. I've seen both of their careers EXTENSIVELY. There is just no way Kobe Bryant is equal to Jordan taking away rings, accolades or whatever. He just isn't. I love Dwyane Wade. I think it would be cool if he could have gotten to the level of Jordan, and he's shown flashes over his career but he just isn't on Jordan's level. He's just not. Neither is Lebron, though he has unreal skills and all the rest of it. Most people generally accept this but for Kobe fans, it's just so damned hard for them. Which I really don't understand why. It's not like he's not still a great player. He's just no Michael Jordan, and never has been. Jordan was stronger, smarter, better defensively, more efficient, a better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, better playoff performer, better crunchtime playoff performer, and on and on. Yet somehow, "they're the same players". Such bullshit, and really something you overwhelmingly only see from Kobe fans.

It's like there's this sect of hardcore Kobe fans that just can't allow themselves to admit the truth, like it's so painful and like it's insulting Kobe or something. That's why they'll say some stupid shit that doesn't even make sense like "ummm, yeah Jordan may be GOAT but uh there's really no difference between him and Kobe as players". Like what does that even mean? It's just their pitiful attempt to try to sound "reasonable" (because deep down they know the truth), but yet somehow get Kobe into the same realm at the same time. What garbage.

And :oldlol: at someone being a "groupie" just because they don't think Jordan and Kobe are equals. NEWSFLASH: Most people with any type of basketball sense don't. You calling anyone who disagrees with your horseshit "groupies" is stupid. You know what? Strip away the accolades and blah blah blah and there's no difference between Paul Pierce and Kobe. Yeay, bring it on Kobe groupies!!! See how ****ing stupid that is?

[ginobli2311]

basically it boils down to this.

mj was a superior defender.
mj was a superior offensive player.

therefore mj would win in a 1 on 1 game against kobe because they are virtually the same size and play very similar games.

i just don't think they are equal as basketball players. i think that is spewing a lot of bs. i think there are some aspects of kobe's game that are better, but i don't think that would translate into anything going against a prime jordan.

and its not knocking kobe. kobe would have the best chance against jordan out of any guard in history in my opinion. but that doesn't mean it would be close. prime jordan was just so damn quick....i just don't think kobe nor anyone ever could stop that in a 1 on 1 game with no help.

and stopping prime kobe would be very hard, but jordan would be one of the very select few in history that could give prime kobe some trouble imo. and that is the difference.

[SourPatchKids]

They have the two GOAT signature shoe lines.

[G-Funk]

:oldlol: I'm not understanding how Kobe wouldn't get Jordan in the post, when he's done it to Ron ad Bron countless times?...And Ron is a better man to man defender than Jordan....Jordan just has very well passing lane steal skills, and help D...

If they played 10 times....Jordan wins 6 and Kobe wins 4....But with Jordan winning the 2 greater game like 11-9, and 12-10...Going back and forward scoring on eachother all the time.


this this dude njust loves to make hate on Kobe too much.

This guy probably think that Wade will win 1 out 9 times vs. Jordan. Since Kobe is better than Wade


in 10 rounds

Jordan would win 6-4

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol: I'm not understanding how Kobe wouldn't get Jordan in the post, when he's done it to Ron ad Bron countless times?...And Ron is a better man to man defender than Jordan....Jordan just has very well passing lane steal skills, and help D...

If they played 10 times....Jordan wins 6 and Kobe wins 4....But with Jordan winning the 2 greater game like 11-9, and 12-10...Going back and forward scoring on eachother all the time.

he could at times.

but if you honestly think kobe could just back jordan down into the low block and then score consistently you are mistaken. its not that he couldn't get the ball there. jordan would stop him from getting off great shots in the post. so what if he scored on lebron in the post? that has nothing to do with this debate....lebron is not a great post defender or something.

kobe has played a total of like 20 games against ron artest for his entire career. so what if he's scored on him in the post a few times?

i could reference kobe's poor numbers vs bruce bowen throughout his career as well. but that really isn't that important to me for this debate.

[G-Funk]

basically it boils down to this.

mj was a superior defender.
mj was a superior offensive player.



.


I agree, but he won't win 8 out 10 times

[gengiskhan]

Career avg

Had Kobe came out at same age as MJ

28ppg 6rpg 5apg 46%

Jordan

30ppg 6rpg 5apg 49%

another retarded Kobe fan :facepalm

Can Kobe ever match this in his dreams?

1987: 37.1 ppg 5.2 Reb 4.6 Ast 3.0 spg
1988: 35.0 ppg 5.5 Reb 6.0 Ast 3.2 spg
1989: 32.5 ppg 8.0 Reb 8.0 Ast 3.0 spg
1990: 33.6 ppg 7.0 Reb 6.3 Ast 2.8 spg
All 4 consequitive seasons with only 1 game missed.

Results: 1 dpoy, 1 MVP, 4 scoring titles, 3 stls titles, 2 back-2-back dunk titles. this was all before winning a ring. Da man was a freak of nature

F*** Kobe, Even Lebron who is clearly a better all around player cannot match this ever.

Kobe at best is a modern day clyde drexler, grew up watching MJ VHS tapes & immitated his game & mannerism.

[ginobli2311]

This is the reason I consider guys like you, who are somewhat better than your hardcore waldus, griffmoney type groupies to not be far off from that category. I've seen both of their careers EXTENSIVELY. There is just no way Kobe Bryant is equal to Jordan taking away rings, accolades or whatever. He just isn't. I love Dwyane Wade. I think it would be cool if he could have gotten to the level of Jordan, and he's shown flashes over his career but he just isn't on Jordan's level. He's just not. Neither is Lebron, though he has unreal skills and all the rest of it. Most people generally accept this but for Kobe fans, it's just so damned hard for them. Which I really don't understand why. It's not like he's not still a great player. He's just no Michael Jordan, and never has been. Jordan was stronger, smarter, better defensively, more efficient, a better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, better playoff performer, better crunchtime playoff performer, and on and on. Yet somehow, "they're the same players". Such bullshit, and really something you overwhelmingly only see from Kobe fans.

It's like there's this sect of hardcore Kobe fans that just can't allow themselves to admit the truth, like it's so painful and like it's insulting Kobe or something. That's why they'll say some stupid shit that doesn't even make sense like "ummm, yeah Jordan may be GOAT but uh there's really no difference between him and Kobe as players". Like what does that even mean? It's just their pitiful attempt to try to sound "reasonable" (because deep down they know the truth), but yet somehow get Kobe into the same realm at the same time. What garbage.

And :oldlol: at someone being a "groupie" just because they don't think Jordan and Kobe are equals. NEWSFLASH: Most people with any type of basketball sense don't. You calling anyone who disagrees with your horseshit "groupies" is stupid. You know what? Strip away the accolades and blah blah blah and there's no difference between Paul Pierce and Kobe. Yeay, bring it on Kobe groupies!!! See how ****ing stupid that is?


exactly. how is kobe better than pierce as a player? kobe simply shoots more....thats about it. the gap between jordan and kobe as players is much bigger than the gap between pierce and kobe.

LOL


Player G W L GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Kobe Bryant17 10 7 17 39.0 9.2 23.2 .396 1.2 4.6 .256 6.5 8.1 .810 1.2 4.2 5.4 5.3 1.7 0.5 2.9 3.4 26.1
Paul Pierce 17 7 10 17 38.3 7.9 17.5 .451 2.5 5.7 .443 7.1 9.2 .764 0.9 5.0 5.9 3.5 1.6 0.3 4.2 3.6 25.4

[Leviathon1121]

Are skilled hands on defense not a...skill? Because Jordan's ability to strip or poke the ball away from defenders was far beyond anything I have ever seen from Kobe. Kobe rarely strips or pokes the ball away from players, but this was one of Jordan's bread and butter defensive abilities.

Then again, Brans will probably say he saw Bryant do it once so they are equal.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.

Too bad there's more to actual impact on the court than asking two players to perform some random series of moves on a practice court. Jordan was AT LEAST 10% more impactful than Kobe in actual games. All of his little advantages, both skill-wise (better off the ball player, rebounder, post player, passer etc.), mental (court awareness, decision making, bball IQ), and physical, added up to a visible difference in impact. The statistical gap alone is at least 10% and then there's also a defensive impact gap and intangibles. lol @ them being "equals". :oldlol:

[knightfall88]

Are skilled hands on defense not a...skill? Because Jordan's ability to strip or poke the ball away from defenders was far beyond anything I have ever seen from Kobe. Kobe rarely strips or pokes the ball away from players, but this was one of Jordan's bread and butter defensive abilities.

Then again, Brans will probably say he saw Bryant do it once so they are equal.

Thats a reach in foul in this day and age. No-one in the last 10 years does it like Jordan did.

[ginobli2311]

hey brans.

what separates pierce and kobe as basketball players?

they have virtually identical efficiency numbers.

kobe:

ts 56% efg 49%

pierce:

ts 57% efg 50%

kobe scores 3 more points a game on 3 more shots for his career.
pierce is a slightly better rebounder and kobe is a slightly better passer.

both have proven to be great clutch players and have stepped up in the playoffs.

as basketball players...how is kobe better than pierce?

[dennisdeng2002]

I would say Kobe is equal to MJ skill-wise, he might actually even be a little better at ball handling, but what seperates the two are their physical attributes and their basketball IQ.
MJ was the far superior athlete, which is no knock on Kobe, who's also a great athlete, but MJ explosiveness was nearly unparralled, and his HANDS were a gift from god. Just watch a few MJ highlights and you'll see he utilizes his huge mitts to palm and manipulate the ball on nearly every drive. MJ was also the superior off-ball player who could get himself open for easy shots to setup his offense, and a better team defender. Kobe has a penchant for roaming on help defense and not being in the right position, though he's a capable defender nonetheless. In general, Kobe and MJ have both probably reached their potentials due to their hard work and dedication, but MJ was better due to his natural abilities and the era in which he learned basketball in, which emphasized less isolation plays (until MJ came along) and tougher defense.

[Gear2]

Even if you go on the assumption that they are equal in every statistic and even IQ possible, Kobe has never done what Jordan has done at the very end, at the NBA finals. There are so many cases of Jordan taking and making the championship shot. Even if he shot poorly during the game he got it done in the clutch to win the trophy (even in 97/98 when Jordan WASN'T in his prime). Kobe just hasn't done that in any of the past three years.

[gengiskhan]

I would say Kobe is equal to MJ skill-wise, he might actually even be a little better at ball handling

another big joke ESPN created in 2000 decade. Kobe "might" have better skills than MJ. all excuses after excuses after excuses.

Fact: If kobe had better skills than MJ, it would've translated into better stats offensively & defensively in Kobe's favor.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set vis a vis ball handling, Kobe would've had less TO ratio than MJ in much weaker talent wise era of 2000 decade.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set vis a vis defensively, Kobe would've had won atleast 1 DPOY. MJ had to compete against Rodman who atleast stole 1 DPOY in 1989 or 1990 from MJ.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set, Kobe's playoff stats woldn't have suffered or stayed low even when Shaq is main threat in the team.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set, Horry, Fisher would never had more clutch buzzer beaters in playoffs than Kobe.

Fact: If kobe had better skills set, Kobe would've played PG to some stretch abandoning SG position when lakers were struggling in '06. (HINT: MJ played PG in 1989 & his stats 32.5/8/8 with tons of triple doubles).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Career avg

Had Kobe came out at same age as MJ

28ppg 6rpg 5apg 46%

Jordan

30ppg 6rpg 5apg 49%

How about both of them ages 21-30, the effective portion of a player's career (this also excludes Kobe's first 4 seasons, '97-'00, which Kobe fans always want us to do anyway):

Jordan - 32.5 pts/6.4 reb/6.1 ast/2.8 stl/1.1 blk/52% FG/59.2% TS/29.8 PER

Kobe - 28.6 pts/5.8 reb/5.2 ast/1.6 stl/.5 blk/45% FG/55.8% TS/24.8 PER

So...yeah.

[dennisdeng2002]

another big joke ESPN created in 2000 decade. Kobe "might" have better skills than MJ. all excuses after excuses after excuses.
I didn't use ESPN propaganda to form my opinions, I used my own knowledge and visual comparisons. When comparing players from different eras, which is extremely complex, nothing is absolute. The best one can hope for is a reasonable comparison of two completely different circumstances.

Fact: If kobe had better skills than MJ, it would've translated into better stats offensively & defensively in Kobe's favor.
Nope, not true, let's take this example: MJ had better stats than AI, is MJ better skill-wise than AI? I would say no. MJ had better physical attributes and basketball IQ, which is very similar in how he compares to Kobe.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set vis a vis ball handling, Kobe would've had less TO ratio than MJ in much weaker talent wise era of 2000 decade.
The fact that the NBA has become less TALENTED is also a myth, with the influx of basketball fans and AAU/Summer Camps, players are becoming more talented physically and skill-wise. Kobe wasn't nearly as effective as MJ when it came to forays into the paint. Kobe's small hands and sometimes poor decision making led him into a lot more out of control plays. Also, with MJ's athleticism, he could afford to make stupid plays because his athleticism could bail him out. Not to say he made a lot of stupid plays, which he didn't, but you'll see that there are instances when MJ will be caught in the air and the play would normally be considered dead, but he out-hangs his defenders and makes the play.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set vis a vis defensively, Kobe would've had won atleast 1 DPOY. MJ had to compete against Rodman who atleast stole 1 DPOY in 1989 or 1990 from MJ.
I said MJ was better defensively so this point is moot. I happen to think Kobe is overrated defensively, he makes a lot of mistakes that are pretty detrimental to his team, but he has always had a big man that can help erase his mistakes.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set, Kobe's playoff stats woldn't have suffered or stayed low even when Shaq is main threat in the team.
Kobe's playoffs stats are actually the same as his regular season stats, and the Shaq era wasn't Kobe's prime. Also your last statement helps my argument, as Shaq was a complete monster back then and dominated the ball. Kobe was never a good off-ball player and so his stats dipped a little.

Fact: If Kobe had better skills set, Horry, Fisher would never had more clutch buzzer beaters in playoffs than Kobe.
Stupid argument, Horry and Fisher had a penchant for being in the right place at the right time and having the cajones to hit the big shot. Does that mean they were better skill-wise than Kobe?

Fact: If kobe had better skills set, Kobe would've played PG to some stretch abandoning SG position when lakers were struggling in '06. (HINT: MJ played PG in 1989 & his stats 32.5/8/8 with tons of triple doubles).
I don't really understand this one, the 04-06 Lakers sucked, if Kobe had to play PG who would've played SG. I'm sure if the Lakers wanted to they could've slapped the PG tag on Kobe and have him bring up the ball, but in the triangle offense that would've have done anything.
None of what you said above are FACTS.
RANT OVER.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ had better stats than AI, is MJ better skill-wise than AI? I would say no.

Jordan is in a completely different universe than Allen Iverson skill-wise - is this a joke? :oldlol: You just exposed yourself as an ignoramus.

[dennisdeng2002]

Jordan is in a completely different universe than Allen Iverson skill-wise - is this a joke? :oldlol: You just exposed yourself as an ignoramus.
Are you kidding me. So are you saying that MJ was infinitely more skilled than AI? If AI was exactly the same but 6'6 he would average 50 points a game easy. I'm not saying AI was the same level as a basketball player, just skill-wise. If you still think you're right than okay you're entitled to your opinions but I am entitled to mine, no need to get all pissy about it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Are you kidding me. So are you saying that MJ was infinitely more skilled than AI? If AI was exactly the same but 6'6 he would average 50 points a game easy. I'm not saying AI was the same level as a basketball player, just skill-wise. If you still think you're right than okay you're entitled to your opinions but I am entitled to mine, no need to get all pissy about it.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Yes, Jordan was clearly in a different league skill-wise than Allen freaking Iverson, and to think otherwise confirms that you know little about basketball. Period.

Nobody said "infinitely" more skilled, but Jordan was on an entirely different level skill-wise, yes.

[sundizz]

Jordan and AI...hmm I think Jordan was a more skilled basketball player.

Handles:
AI had flashier dribbles, but Jordan could penetrate better using his less flashy dribbles.

Shooting:
About equal shooting, Jordan had a better go to jumper move (fadeaway)

Passing:
About equal. Neither was the most willing of passers. They were both 2nd option passers and about equally proficient at it.

Defensive fundamentals (yes this a learned skill for guards):
Jordan was a much more skilled defender.

AI was an outstanding scorer for ONE reason, he could create separation better than anyone. He had that amazingly QUICK first step back or first step by that created enough separation for him to get his shot off. He did this with his ATHLETICISM and not his skill set. Him being taller wouldn't of made him a better player than Jordan I don't think. He would of been slower and his scoring style was on step backs etc and so I don't think he would of been better at it (less separation). Additionally, his style of dribbling looks great but he has a lot of wasted dribbles. He has that ANd1 dribbling skill set where you basically do 5 moves and are still in the same spot. Jordan used his footwork moreso than dribbling. He would use a jab step, a pivot etc and then use three hard dribbles to get where he wanted. At the NBA level this is much more effective to get to the rim. Current example: Lebron. He goes to the top of the key does the slow high dribble then explodes to one side (usually right) and uses 2 hard dribbles to get into the key. AI Current style (but sucks at it): JR Smith. Does a between the legs, a crossover, and a step back and after all that fancy dribbling has barely created any separation from his defender. It looks all fancy when it goes in, but it is ineffective.

[momo]

...













Forget KB and MJ for a second people.

In no way is ANYTHING narrated by Ahmad Rashad a freeking documentary! Christ.

OK. Back to your regularly scheduled KB VS MJ wankfest.

[andgar923]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.

They aren't equals as far as skill set.

Kobe Bryant is 'similar' and perhaps the closest, but he still aint as good as MJ.... sorry.

Their IQ alone is enough to separate them even if everything else is the same (which of course it isn't).

[sundizz]

They aren't equals as far as skill set.

Kobe Bryant is 'similar' and perhaps the closest, but he still aint as good as MJ.... sorry.

Their IQ alone is enough to separate them even if everything else is the same (which of course it isn't).

Actually Kobe's skillset is superior to Jordan. However, he is significantly behind Jordan in raw athleticism and physical gifts, especially at this stage of his career.

Kobe has better fundamentals at neary EVERY aspect of basketball, but Jordan's physical advantages make up for any lost difference. Kobe is a better pure shooter, with better fundamentals but Jordan could create better separation. Kobe is a more skilled dribbler, but Jordan had bigger hands and was quicker so he could get into the lane and get hit without losing the ball as easily. Passing SKILL they are actually about equal, Kobe has better court vision (not that he necessarily used it his whole career), but Jordan had more control over the ball with his big hands so could make last second passes easier.

Jordan athleticism advantage >> Kobe's
Kobe skillset > Kobe
Advantage Jordan


-In today's NBA Jordan's athleticism is > most of the NBA (even average sg's nowadays are ridiculously athletic, think Courtney Lee)
-In Jordan's NBA, Jordan's athleticism was >>> most of the NBA

-In today's NBA prime athletic Kobe is > 90% of the NBA. In not prime athleticism Kobe, Kobe =or < NBA average sg athleticism

-In Jordan's NBA, Kobe prime athleticism >>.5> most of the NBA
-Nowadays Kobe, in Jordan's NBA is >> NBA athleticism

Jordan faced smaller, weaker, less athletic players in his era so his ridiculously superior athleticism was amplified 10 fold.

As pure basketball players though they are the ultimate matchup. Jordan would of had the physical edge, and Kobe would of had the skill edge. Me thinks since basketball is physical Jordan would of had the slight edge. Can't compare stats tho...not really fair to Kobe.

[griffmoney1784]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GUpcay6Dtc

[andgar923]

Actually Kobe's skillset is superior to Jordan.

ROFL @ this bullshit.

[ginobli2311]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GUpcay6Dtc

how are you defining skill? if its dribbling and shooting...then yes...kobe is superior to jordan in both of those aspects of the game.

i have no problem with someone saying kobe is more skilled than jordan in those terms. but jordan was far more skilled finishing around the basket with both hands. jordan was a more skilled passer. jordan was more skilled in the low post.

thats just skill wise. in terms of raw athleticism and basketball strength...jordan blows kobe out of the water.

but skill wise in the terms of dribbling and shooting? kobe is superior....really not a debate. just like nash is a more skilled player than both jordan and kobe imo. he's a better ball handler, passer, and far better shooter than either. so skill is all relative.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually Kobe's skillset is superior to Jordan. However, he is significantly behind Jordan in raw athleticism and physical gifts, especially at this stage of his career.

Kobe has better fundamentals at neary EVERY aspect of basketball, but Jordan's physical advantages make up for any lost difference. Kobe is a better pure shooter, with better fundamentals but Jordan could create better separation. Kobe is a more skilled dribbler, but Jordan had bigger hands and was quicker so he could get into the lane and get hit without losing the ball as easily. Passing SKILL they are actually about equal, Kobe has better court vision (not that he necessarily used it his whole career), but Jordan had more control over the ball with his big hands so could make last second passes easier.

Jordan athleticism advantage >> Kobe's
Kobe skillset > Kobe
Advantage Jordan


-In today's NBA Jordan's athleticism is > most of the NBA (even average sg's nowadays are ridiculously athletic, think Courtney Lee)
-In Jordan's NBA, Jordan's athleticism was >>> most of the NBA

-In today's NBA prime athletic Kobe is > 90% of the NBA. In not prime athleticism Kobe, Kobe =or < NBA average sg athleticism

-In Jordan's NBA, Kobe prime athleticism >>.5> most of the NBA
-Nowadays Kobe, in Jordan's NBA is >> NBA athleticism

Jordan faced smaller, weaker, less athletic players in his era so his ridiculously superior athleticism was amplified 10 fold.

As pure basketball players though they are the ultimate matchup. Jordan would of had the physical edge, and Kobe would of had the skill edge. Me thinks since basketball is physical Jordan would of had the slight edge. Can't compare stats tho...not really fair to Kobe.

This is ridiculous nonsense. I especially like the part about Kobe having better vision than Jordan. What a joke. :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Actually Kobe's skillset is superior to Jordan. However, he is significantly behind Jordan in raw athleticism and physical gifts, especially at this stage of his career.

Kobe has better fundamentals at neary EVERY aspect of basketball, but Jordan's physical advantages make up for any lost difference. Kobe is a better pure shooter, with better fundamentals but Jordan could create better separation. Kobe is a more skilled dribbler, but Jordan had bigger hands and was quicker so he could get into the lane and get hit without losing the ball as easily. Passing SKILL they are actually about equal, Kobe has better court vision (not that he necessarily used it his whole career), but Jordan had more control over the ball with his big hands so could make last second passes easier.

Jordan athleticism advantage >> Kobe's
Kobe skillset > Kobe
Advantage Jordan


-In today's NBA Jordan's athleticism is > most of the NBA (even average sg's nowadays are ridiculously athletic, think Courtney Lee)
-In Jordan's NBA, Jordan's athleticism was >>> most of the NBA

-In today's NBA prime athletic Kobe is > 90% of the NBA. In not prime athleticism Kobe, Kobe =or < NBA average sg athleticism

-In Jordan's NBA, Kobe prime athleticism >>.5> most of the NBA
-Nowadays Kobe, in Jordan's NBA is >> NBA athleticism

Jordan faced smaller, weaker, less athletic players in his era so his ridiculously superior athleticism was amplified 10 fold.

As pure basketball players though they are the ultimate matchup. Jordan would of had the physical edge, and Kobe would of had the skill edge. Me thinks since basketball is physical Jordan would of had the slight edge. Can't compare stats tho...not really fair to Kobe.

i think you are creating way too much of a difference between eras. and really the perimeter defense throughout jordan's career was superior to what kobe has gone up against for his...especially post 2005. sorry....but kevin martin is scoring at will in the current game. if defense is so much better now....how are guys like martin and ellis scoring so easily? perimeter defense in the nba has gotten worse since jordan retired...not better.

just think back to jordan on the wizards.
he averaged 23 points / 6 boards / 5 assist at the age of 38 in 2002. this was before the rules made it far easier for perimeter players. if a 38 year old injured jordan could do that on a bad team no help....just imagine what a prime jordan would do.

i hardly think your argument that jordan relied heavily on his athleticism to be great works if at nearing age 40 he was still dropping 40 on people.

this whole era bs is getting out of control. smaller defenders does not mean worse defenders. GP would be by far the best perimeter defender in the league right now and really for the last 8 years. it would not be close actually. there is not a guard that even remotely approaches what gary payton did defensively. there is not a sg that approaches jordan's defense currently. there is not a small forward that approaches pippen. lebron is a great defender, but not on the pippen level.

and then lets talk about defensive bigs. LOL....the jordan era featured mourning/shaq/robinson/hakeem/ewinig....all in the 90s.

then lets factor in the rules back then. defense was far more physcial on the perimeter.

so your argument really holds no water. the reason that shorter guards were the ones to try and stop jordan was because jordan's quickness was mind blowing for his size. if you think guys like bowen or artest or battier or manu or thabo would have a prayer staying in front of prime jordan you are sorely mistaken.

jordan was just better than kobe. its clear as day. anyone that knows the game knows this to be true. its really not worth the comparison.

like i said before.

kobe vs pierce is a much more apt comparison and really one that is worth having if you want to strip accolades and titles like brans said. pierce is a better team player and teammate. he's a better boarder. he's more efficient.he's proven himself in the playoffs and proven he can take a team far in the playoffs without elite help like he did early on in his career.

pierce and kobe are virtually identical on paper for their careers in terms of overall numbers and efficiency. kobe merely shoots three more shots per game and scores three more points.

so this is a heads up to kobe stans and people like brans. if you want to play the "strip titles and accolades" game....kobe vs a lot of players is far more apt than kobe vs jordan.

fyi.

[griffmoney1784]

how are you defining skill? if its dribbling and shooting...then yes...kobe is superior to jordan in both of those aspects of the game.

i have no problem with someone saying kobe is more skilled than jordan in those terms. but jordan was far more skilled finishing around the basket with both hands. jordan was a more skilled passer. jordan was more skilled in the low post.

thats just skill wise. in terms of raw athleticism and basketball strength...jordan blows kobe out of the water.

but skill wise in the terms of dribbling and shooting? kobe is superior....really not a debate. just like nash is a more skilled player than both jordan and kobe imo. he's a better ball handler, passer, and far better shooter than either. so skill is all relative.


the best way to beat a lie detecter test is simple. if you truly believe it. its no a lie.

and i believe kobe is the most polished basketball player in history.

every other player in history you had doubts that atleast 1 thing wasnt perfected

with kobe.... you dont. the only think kobe lacks is off court vocal leadership and maturity at times.

kobe is the greatest player ever. one of the best defenders, goat scoring skill set, greatest clutch player.

jordan only ranks ahead of kobe for careers

[andgar923]

the best way to beat a lie detecter test is simple. if you truly believe it. its no a lie.

and i believe kobe is the most polished basketball player in history.

every other player in history you had doubts that atleast 1 thing wasnt perfected

with kobe.... you dont. the only think kobe lacks is off court vocal leadership and maturity at times.

kobe is the greatest player ever. one of the best defenders, goat scoring skill set, greatest clutch player.

jordan only ranks ahead of kobe for careers

Then you're lying to yourself.

[griffmoney1784]

Then you're lying to yourself.

not a lie if i think its true. and im not the only one

cant just look at a box score, cant just look at a trophy case. anyone who watches tv sees kobe can do things jordan couldnt. jordans jumper was more of a push shot from 3. anything beyond 18 feet his form changed from fading to leaning. looked awkward.

kobe has the same form 40 feet away.

when you see kobe shoot left handed threes in practice with better form than jordan with his right hand. you know its bad.

as far as moves. i think kobe probably has a deaper rollidex


i think jordans options get cut off at option E) or option F)...

kobe probably has a counter that goes beyond option Z)...

i just see allot more fine tuning and calculated slow motion artwork in kobes game than MJ's

when kobes out there its like hes a puppet master. jordan was more of a blow by guys, jump over guys, fade away, hang in the air.....

[Maga_1]

So, if at age 38 or 36 Kobe average 15ppg .. you will still think he's better than Jordan?

[griffmoney1784]

So, if at age 38 or 36 Kobe average 15ppg .. you will still think he's better than Jordan?

at age 38 jordan was playing his 14th season. at age 32 kobes playing his 15th season.

when you rest your knees for a year in 94, and another 3 years from 1999-2001 ( and dont skip college to play an extra 1-2 years )

you can do amaizing things. and i think kobe will retire at 35 years old with a 23-24ppg average

[Maga_1]

Now, you're making excuses.

And at age 40, averaging 20 ppg it's enough?

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

They were different people back then. It was a different game. End of discussion.

I'd love to see the Jordan making it in these times. Like a musician who couldn't afford equipment in the early 90's, but ending up successful, compared to a guy who now has everything but makes Youtube videos that nobody cares about.

[griffmoney1784]

Now, you're making excuses.

And at age 40, averaging 20 ppg it's enough?

dont understand... but if your worried kobe wont be able to do much when hes older...kobe owns the lakers. without a phil jackson cutting kobes minutes next year kobe may verry well average 30ppg.

dudes averaging 25ppg on 30 minutes for god sake. :roll:

kobe will have all the shots he wants just like jordan did with the wizards. its all a matter of how long the lakers can be a contender. if they start losing and dont have a shot at more rings. i think he retires...

but with bynum and brown coming along i dont see it happening.

[Maga_1]

LOL i really can't have a decent conversation with people like you, really.
Let's just agree to disagree.

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

The second that documantary started to talk about Kobe, I got the same awkward feeling that true Kobe fans always get while watching Kobe play.

'He will live up to it if we just don't see his obvious mistakes.'

Don't lie. Kobe is dumb. He thinks it's given to him if he looks the same and does the same.

[Nevaeh]

not a lie if i think its true. and im not the only one

cant just look at a box score, cant just look at a trophy case. anyone who watches tv sees kobe can do things jordan couldnt. jordans jumper was more of a push shot from 3. anything beyond 18 feet his form changed from fading to leaning. looked awkward.

kobe has the same form 40 feet away.

when you see kobe shoot left handed threes in practice with better form than jordan with his right hand. you know its bad.

as far as moves. i think kobe probably has a deaper rollidex


i think jordans options get cut off at option E) or option F)...

kobe probably has a counter that goes beyond option Z)...

i just see allot more fine tuning and calculated slow motion artwork in kobes game than MJ's

when kobes out there its like hes a puppet master. jordan was more of a blow by guys, jump over guys, fade away, hang in the air.....

If Kobe has all of these "perfected" options, how come he only shoots 45% for his career? TRUE skill should make you a more efficient player. Just because you can shoot from 3 still doesn't change the fact that it's the lowest percentage shot in the game. Anyone with Basketball "IQ" knows this.

For someone who's supposed to pride himself on "work ethic" and being a "student of the game" Kobe's really notorious for dumb decision making as a Superstar player. It took him up to THIS YEAR to realize he can be efficient by deferring to his Bigs down low. He could've been in the GOAT discussion had he not been so head strong all of those years. Now he's, at best, top 6-10.

Oh, and Kobe moves like an awkward version of MJ at best. While Jordan's moves were smooth, Kobe's had a herky-jerky twinge to them, like he was trying too hard at times.

[dennisdeng2002]

If Kobe has all of these "perfected" options, how come he only shoots 45% for his career? TRUE skill should make you a more efficient player. Just because you can shoot from 3 still doesn't change the fact that it's the lowest percentage shot in the game. Anyone with Basketball "IQ" knows this.

For someone who's supposed to pride himself on "work ethic" and being a "student of the game" Kobe's really notorious for dumb decision making as a Superstar player. It took him up to THIS YEAR to realize he can be efficient by deferring to his Bigs down low. He could've been in the GOAT discussion had he not been so head strong all of those years. Now he's, at best, top 6-10.

Oh, and Kobe moves like an awkward version of MJ at best. While Jordan's moves were smooth, Kobe's had a herky-jerky twinge to them, like he was trying too hard at times.
I do agree that since Kobe has clearly lost a step, his moves aren't as fluid, even herky-jerky at times. But 03-06 Kobe was as close to MJ as it gets. He had no hesitancy to his moves, a little jab step pull-up J, fade-away, he knew exactly what shot he wanted. Kobe might have been a better shooter, but MJ got better shots. Why settle for contested three pointer when you can get you get yourself a wide open 17 footer?

[cp3mvp2011]

81>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>69

69 pts,18 rebs,6 asts >>>>>>>>>>> 81 pts,6 rebs,1 asts ( ball hogs ):banana:

[Harrison_Barnes]

He played in a horrible team, but he was the top scorer of that team and he played in a couple of all star games before he got in the lakers, and I don't think he improved much since he's in LA, he's just in a better team

Gasol was never a superstar.

[scm5]

I like to think of the difference between MJ and Kobe's skillsets this way...

Jordan was crafty around the basket. If he got there, he would find some way to finish. Jordan's hands and athleticism made him an incredible finisher around the basket.

Kobe is crafty around the perimeter. He will get you in the air, make multiple jabs/fakes, and use a lot of spin moves to get you out of position.


Note: MJ and Kobe are both very skilled, I'm just highlighting what they're best at.

[f0und]

with such a vast encylopedia of moves, technical ability, and a complete all around game, why does kobe often reach into his big bag of tricks and pull out the dumb shots? why hasnt this all around skillset allowed him to have even just one season shooting 47% or better?

[Knoe Itawl]

with such a vast encylopedia of moves, technical ability, and a complete all around game, why does kobe often reach into his big bag of tricks and pull out the dumb shots? why hasnt this all around skillset allowed him to have even just one season shooting 47% or better?

Expect bullshit deflecting and excuses for this, which is all they EVER do. The funny thing is, they dismiss Jordan's awards, they dismiss his stats, they dismiss his dominating in the playoffs, they dismiss his fg%/efficiency, and on and on. If Kobe is really there, why do they need to degrade Jordan's career in order to get him there? Why do they have to come up with all types of excuses? Why couldn't Kobe, you know, HAVE ACTUALLY HAD THE STATS, ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND GAME TO BACK IT UP? Instead, they have to obfuscate. Obfuscation is the first sign that your argument holds no water.

Funny thing is, if Kobe had accomplished all of the things Jordan did, you KNOW they would go on and on and on about it. Since he hasn't, they have to find a way to downplay Jordan because Kobe just doesn't come close, and never has. It's really pathetic actually.

Like I said, I love DWade but he's just not as good as Jordan, and won't be. That's no diss to Wade, it's just facts. But these guys live in their own little world where just saying a bunch of bullshit is true because they want it to be, regardless of reality.

[f0und]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGbuEjt-KIc

this should give you a little idea of how big the gap is.

[f0und]

as far as skills go, i will say this about kobe. he can set himself up for almost any shot. thats pretty much his best quality. but when it comes to actually putting the ball in the basket(which is what really counts), he's nowhere near jordan. he's not that good of a shooter(or at least not near as good as his homers think he is) and he's dumber than a rock.

[G-Funk]

How about both of them ages 21-30, the effective portion of a player's career (this also excludes Kobe's first 4 seasons, '97-'00, which Kobe fans always want us to do anyway):

Jordan - 32.5 pts/6.4 reb/6.1 ast/2.8 stl/1.1 blk/52% FG/59.2% TS/29.8 PER

Kobe - 28.6 pts/5.8 reb/5.2 ast/1.6 stl/.5 blk/45% FG/55.8% TS/24.8 PER

So...yeah.

that's fair :applause: That's why I think MJ IS GOAT! Should be interesting to see Kobe play till he retires. hopefully at 36. So we can make a 21-36 comparison or when ever he retires. Just curious why did u choose to stop at age 30 and not 32?

[G-Funk]

Also where did u get ur info from? I was look for shyt like that but can't find it.

[New York Knicks]

Jordan is the GOAT no doubt. But many don't want to belive that AS BASKETBALL players, pure skill set, no rings, accolades, stats included, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are equals....I know, bring on the onslaught of Jordan groupies...But the truth is the truth.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. The only reason Kobe's in the discussion is BECAUSE of his achievements. Because from an individual standpoint, he doesn't touch Jordan.

[asdf1990]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. The only reason Kobe's in the discussion is BECAUSE of his achievements. Because from an individual standpoint, he doesn't touch Jordan.

No, the only reason Kobe's in the discussion is cuz the media is obsessed with finding the next Jordan. When the reality is there wont be anyone like Jordan who dominates in every facet of the game.

Why is the media so obsessed? Cuz Jordan was that good. This guy had 5 mvps/6fmvps/10 scoring titles/dpoy / steal titles , in 11 seasons, if u exclude the season he was out with broken foot, the season he came back after retirement (17 games) and the 2 seasons with wizards. Find me someone who dominated the league like that and I will paypal u money.

[cp3mvp2011]

Kobe's shot sellection is very poor if u compare him to Jordan's :applause:

[Simple Jack]

Kobe made Ariza,Lamar,Brown,Vujacic,Farmar,GASOL,and Fisher better players.
Gasol was nothing before he got on the Lakers. Another example is Ariza, once he left the Lakers he just turned in to a role player while on the Lakers he was the main guy coming off the bench for the champions.

He was averaging 15 and 6 on Houston.

Jordan was:

The better playoff performer
The better defender
The better offensive player
More Clutch
More achievements
Better stats
The better regular season performer
Higher basketball IQ

[Ancient Legend]

69 pts,18 rebs,6 asts >>>>>>>>>>> 81 pts,6 rebs,1 asts ( ball hogs ):banana:


Also Jordan's 63 pt game against a HALL OF FAME frontline like the Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish) in a playoff game is miles above an 81 pt performance against a bottom feeder like the Raptors.

[OldSchoolBBall]

that's fair :applause: That's why I think MJ IS GOAT! Should be interesting to see Kobe play till he retires. hopefully at 36. So we can make a 21-36 comparison or when ever he retires. Just curious why did u choose to stop at age 30 and not 32?

Because Jordan retired at age 30 and was older than Kobe is now when he came back. Regardless, the years specified constitute the effective bulk of a player's career. Kobe at age 33 (next season) isn't going to suddenly be better than MJ at 33 (1996, when he put up 30.4 pts/6.6 reb/4.3 ast/2.2 stl/.5 blk/50% FG/58% TS/29.4 PER and won MVP/ASG MVP/Finals MVP, led a team to the best record in history, and made first team All-NBA and defensive first team. Point being, if you weren't better for the 10 seasons from age 21-30, you're not better. Period.

[HotelManager]

Because Jordan retired at age 30 and was older than Kobe is now when he came back. Regardless, the years specified constitute the effective bulk of a player's career. Kobe at age 33 (next season) isn't going to suddenly be better than MJ at 33 (1996, when he put up 30.4 pts/6.6 reb/4.3 ast/2.2 stl/.5 blk/50% FG/58% TS/29.4 PER and won MVP/ASG MVP/Finals MVP, led a team to the best record in history, and made first team All-NBA and defensive first team. Point being, if you weren't better for the 10 seasons from age 21-30, you're not better. Period.
Who made you the decision maker?

[KG5MVP]

Kobe vs. MJ is disgustingly disrespectful and idiotic.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who made you the decision maker?

Common sense did.

[HotelManager]

Common sense did.
I guess since you're a 50 year old assshole who nobody respects, that entitles you to some kind of an opinion. wait, did you hear that?


negged.

[markymark]

Also Jordan's 63 pt game against a HALL OF FAME frontline like the Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish) in a playoff game is miles above an 81 pt performance against a bottom feeder like the Raptors.

But they had the mighty Chris Bosh at that time... :confusedshrug:

[Round Mound]

Kobe vs. MJ is disgustingly disrespectful and idiotic.

:applause:

[G-Funk]

Also Jordan's 63 pt game against a HALL OF FAME frontline like the Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish) in a playoff game is miles above an 81 pt performance against a bottom feeder like the Raptors.
And OT if i'm correct

[gengiskhan]

Also Jordan's 63 pt game against a HALL OF FAME frontline like the Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish) in a playoff game is miles above an 81 pt performance against a bottom feeder like the Raptors.

thats the truth.

MJ's dropped 63 on hall-of-fame line up in playoffs when celtics will go on to win championship. that 1986 celtics is considered the greatest "team" defensive team ever assembled to this day.

Why so? DJ the enforcer, Bird the dirty tricks, Mckales never ending wingspan inside the paint, supported by The Chief's never ending wingspan 5 foot from the basket. Both supertall always camped in the paint area.

what did MJ do. Dropped 49 in game 1 & then followed it up by 63 just to show the world 49 wasnt a fluke.

oh! Kobe scores 81 on High School line up of Toronto Raptors, an expansion franchise with ZERO 2nd team allstars.

[mashbelly]

thats the truth.

MJ's dropped 63 on hall-of-fame line up in playoffs when celtics will go on to win championship. that 1986 celtics is considered the greatest "team" defensive team ever assembled to this day.

Why so? DJ the enforcer, Bird the dirty tricks, Mckales never ending wingspan inside the paint, supported by The Chief's never ending wingspan 5 foot from the basket. Both supertall always camped in the paint area.

what did MJ do. Dropped 49 in game 1 & then followed it up by 63 just to show the world 49 wasnt a fluke.

oh! Kobe scores 81 on High School line up of Toronto Raptors, an expansion franchise with ZERO 2nd team allstars.

all you do is post about kome

get a life

[cp3mvp2011]

Mj >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe Forever
End T|hread

[KingKobe]

thats the truth.

MJ's dropped 63 on hall-of-fame line up in playoffs when celtics will go on to win championship. that 1986 celtics is considered the greatest "team" defensive team ever assembled to this day.

Why so? DJ the enforcer, Bird the dirty tricks, Mckales never ending wingspan inside the paint, supported by The Chief's never ending wingspan 5 foot from the basket. Both supertall always camped in the paint area.

what did MJ do. Dropped 49 in game 1 & then followed it up by 63 just to show the world 49 wasnt a fluke.

oh! Kobe scores 81 on High School line up of Toronto Raptors, an expansion franchise with ZERO 2nd team allstars.
in OT bro. he got to pad his stats. 81 points is 81 points no matter how u look at it

[Killer_Instinct]

chucker.

:oldlol:



On another note, great thread.

[32MJ32]

:oldlol:



On another note, great thread.


It is absolutely outstanding

[TryToBeUnbias]

its actually been a while since the 1st page was flooded with MJ Vs. KB threads clap it up for progress :applause:

[gilalizard]

Why are there these types of threads all the time?

Who else is MJ going to be compared to?

Kobe comes closest to MJ's style, physique, competetive spirit, and success.

Who else compares as much to him?

[RedBlackAttack]

Are you kidding me. So are you saying that MJ was infinitely more skilled than AI? If AI was exactly the same but 6'6 he would average 50 points a game easy. I'm not saying AI was the same level as a basketball player, just skill-wise. If you still think you're right than okay you're entitled to your opinions but I am entitled to mine, no need to get all pissy about it.
Just wanted to check in and note the audaciously absurdness of this particular post. AI was more skilled than Jordan based on some vague assertion about the height difference? :oldlol:

WTF are you even talking about? Iverson used his relatively small stature to his advantage. If Iverson were as tall as Jordan, he would not have been able to slide to the basket the way that he did throughout his prime years. His famed crossover was also largely due to his being so close to the ground and thus able to weave through defenses without the risk of the ball being stolen.

In fact, one could argue that Iverson's whole skill-set was based on his small stature. He certainly relied much more on physical tools and athleticism than Jordan did during his peak (1988-93).

Comparing Iverson's skill-set to that of Jordan is like comparing George W. Bush's ability to orate to that of MLK.

[NBASTATMAN]

What if they were equal? Why is it that no matter what Kobe does he can't be better than Jordan?

Coming from the guy with Jordan in his avatar.


Maybe because what Kobe has already done... You can't just overlook the way he has played in the biggest games.. Truth is if he wasnt' playing in LA I am not sure if he would have been the player he was.. He never built a team... Mj built the Bulls.. He helped form Pippen... Kobe is one of the greatest but there is a reason the best say he is not on MJ's level..

Bird
Magic
West
Mchale
Barkley
Shaq


Even West has publicly said that Kobe is one of the top 3 or 4 players he has seen play... Whether that is true or not is a debate for another day...But what is true is that he has never said that MJ was one of the top 3-4 players he has seen.. He always regards him as the GOAT..... That list has 4 of the best ten players of all time.. Barkley top twenty..

Hakeem
Wilt
kareem
duncan
Oscar

Have not commented on this subject though Wilt would say himself.. Kareem would throw out some shit like "What is the best mean".. And Duncan has never commented... Kobe also says MJ is the best..Hakeem would be a great guy to ask.. Kobe is one of the best though.. I appreciate his skilllllls..One of my fav players to watch.. Especially when he plays smart...

[NBASTATMAN]

Who else is MJ going to be compared to?

Kobe comes closest to MJ's style, physique, competetive spirit, and success.

Who else compares as much to him?

I agree .. I am a big Wade fan and he could be one of the greatest but I am sure he hasn't worked like Kobe on basketball.. Kobe is always working.. Wade came into last season out of shape.. That would never happen with Kobe...

[dennisdeng2002]

Just wanted to check in and note the audaciously absurdness of this particular post. AI was more skilled than Jordan based on some vague assertion about the height difference? :oldlol:

WTF are you even talking about? Iverson used his relatively small stature to his advantage. If Iverson were as tall as Jordan, he would not have been able to slide to the basket the way that he did throughout his prime years. His famed crossover was also largely due to his being so close to the ground and thus able to weave through defenses without the risk of the ball being stolen.

In fact, one could argue that Iverson's whole skill-set was based on his small stature. He certainly relied much more on physical tools and athleticism than Jordan did during his peak (1988-93).

Comparing Iverson's skill-set to that of Jordan is like comparing George W. Bush's ability to orate to that of MLK.
You've got to be kidding me. I'm not questioning MJ as the GOAT, which he clearly is, but you really think that his skill-set was that much better than any other player in the history of the league? Do you understand just how good small players like AI have to be to be able to score like he did? Yes he had blinding quickness but there have been players quicker than him. And don't forget Jordan was blessed athletically too, not only was Jordan also extremely quick and fast but he also had huge hands and unparalleled jumping ability and body control, all of which he utilized extensively. I admit AI might be a bad example but that was first player off the top of my head. What about players like Nash, Pistol, or the Logo himself? I'm talking pure basketball skills, not as basketball players. Think of it this way, who's more skilled (PRIME) KG or Shaq? Obviously KG. But who's the better player? I would say Shaq. Being the best player takes a combination of skill, athleticism, and the right mentality, I'm only arguing about the skill portion.

[RedBlackAttack]

You've got to be kidding me. I'm not questioning MJ as the GOAT, which he clearly is, but you really think that his skill-set was that much better than any other player in the history of the league?
Did I say that Jordan's skill-set was better than any player in the history of the league? No, I did not (although, he would probably be pretty high on any list). I said that he was more skilled than AI and to make that comparison is silly. Iverson was a skilled scorer at his peak, but his footwork alone was miles behind peak Jordan. Michael Jordan was probably the greatest guard at playing with his back to the basket that has ever lived. He didn't do that with blinding athleticism or by having big hands... He did it with absolutely phenomenal footwork, incredible understanding of floor spacing/sweet spots/off the ball movement, an ability to feel the defense moving before it even takes a step and picture-perfect mechanics on his fadeaway jumper (in the later years).

Let's get something straight, here... Jordan was a great athlete. Certainly one of the Top 5 pure athletes to ever play the game (imo). But, it was that athleticism combined with his insane skill and technique that made him what he was.

And, let's not forget that the 'skill-set' argument applies to both sides of the floor.

AI has no business being in this comparison. You would have a much better case arguing that AI was an equal or better natural athlete than Jordan than arguing skill-set (although, I would probably disagree with that, as well).

[Nevaeh]

Who else is MJ going to be compared to?

Kobe comes closest to MJ's style, physique, competetive spirit, and success.

Who else bit off another player as much as Kobe did MJ?

Answer: Nobody. I can't think of any other player in the history of the league building his legacy off the back of another player more than Kobe has. No matter what he achieves, he'll always be the "wannabe".

[plowking]

Heresy

[Heat007]

Prime Kobe 2005 with Caron Butler and Lamar Odom: 34-48 record.

And with Wade the year before the Miami Heat were 42-40 (the team was 8-13 in the 21 games Wade missed). The Heat had 3 of their starters on that 2004 team that ended up in LA in 2005.

When Wade saw more minutes as the season went along that year in his rookie season, Wade led them to win 17 of their final 21 games of the season to get into the playoffs.. led the team in pts fg% and other stats in the playoffs.. and almost beat the Top team with the best record in the NBA in round 2

Wade led them in many clutch plays in crunchtime as the coach gave the rookie free reigns (rare to see a coach do that for a rookie but wade was such an exceptional talent and it was so obvious right away as a rookie),

Here, you can re-live that season starting at about the 2:00 minute mark of the video, and see what rookie DWade did with those guys that Prime Kobe could not do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSdGcamDjnw

[Kurosawa0]

Kobe just isn't as good as MJ was. It's not about rings or trophies. MJ was just better.

[OmniStrife]

Walduś' mom is definitely GOAT.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

And OT if i'm correct
55 in regulation, 8 in double-OT if I'm correct

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

in OT bro. he got to pad his stats. 81 points is 81 points no matter how u look at it
You mean how Kobe got to pad his stats with 9 more points in the last 4:24 of the game while the Lakers had a 17 point lead (113-96) to give him 81? Having the Laker record (and no shot of reaching Wilt's record) wasn't enough to have him sit out the last minutes?

And stat padding is, by definition, when players try to increase their numbers without much benefit to his/her team, or their chance of winning the game. Jordan clearly wasn't stat padding his 63-point game, he was trying to win the game for his team.

At least by your standards you should be praising Wilt's 100.

[Samurai Swoosh]

MJ is the Greatest Of All Time ... but let's not act like Bryant isn't going down as a bonnafide LEGEND in this game as well.