Jordan Vs. Kobe at age 32

[Soundwave]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.

[KingKobe]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages.
kobe didnt get playing time his first 2 seasons in the league so this thread is a fail

[juju151111]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.
Kobe isn't on MJ level, its pretty simple.

[YouCallILose]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

[ProfessorMurder]

kobe didnt get playing time his first 2 seasons in the league so this thread is a fail

???

[Sroek]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

I normally detest your posts, but this makes a ton more sense than "HURR DURR let's compare two players' season averages when they were the same age!"

[KingKobe]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg
this. :applause:

[Soundwave]

I don't really buy the "Kobe played more seasons" arguement too much.

It's not like Michael Jordan wasn't playing basketball every day when he was 18/19/20. You really think he only started playing basketball on a daily basis when he got to the NBA?

And it's not like Kobe didn't have it considerably easier coming into the league first being able to play behind Eddie Jones and most importantly having Shaq to play with in his first 9 seasons or whatever that was.

Jordan had to carry the Bulls from day 1.

[plat1numX]

kobe didnt get playing time his first 2 seasons in the league so this thread is a fail

...?

[MrJohnWall]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg


This!:applause: :applause:

[KingKobe]

...?
his averages are skewed by his first 2 seasons

Kobe>MJ

[YouCallILose]

I don't really buy the "Kobe played more seasons" arguement too much.

It's not like Michael Jordan wasn't playing basketball every day when he was 18/19/20. You really think he only started playing basketball on a daily basis when he got to the NBA?

And it's not like Kobe didn't have it considerably easier coming into the league first being able to play behind Eddie Jones and most importantly having Shaq to play with in his first 9 seasons or whatever that was.

Jordan had to carry the Bulls from day 1.

playing 82 games in 7 months is a hell of a lot more difficult than playing 30 games in 7 months

players break down due to wear and tear, not age.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

Regardless of how many games you play, there's a huge difference between being a 40 year old and a 32 year old. :facepalm

[Micku]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

He was like 40 years old, right? A few years out of practice too, huh? Plus wasn't he injured later on?

But yeah, Jordan always been a better scorer. It'll be interesting to compare their playoff performances. Jordan with his second threepeat and Kobe now.

[ProfessorMurder]

his averages are skewed by his first 2 seasons

Kobe>MJ

His first two seasons have nothing to do with him being 32.

Also, you're a retard.

[Soundwave]

playing 82 games in 7 months is a hell of a lot more difficult than playing 30 games in 7 months

players break down due to wear and tear, not age.

Even if that were true, Kobe didn't play 82 games fully his first two seasons in the NBA (which coincide with Jordan's two years at North Carolina).

And he sure as hell wasn't playing starter minutes in his first couple of seasons.

[M.V.P]

I normally detest your posts, but this makes a ton more sense than "HURR DURR let's compare two players' season averages when they were the same age!"
It's better but it also doesn't make thing equally since the games Kobe played in earlier weren't as heavy duty. I think the best one is past a specific minutes played milestone (like after 10, 000 minutes) or something like that.

[MayCeltics]

Kobe stans :lol

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Kobe

[tpols]

Even if that were true, Kobe didn't play 82 games fully his first two seasons in the NBA (which coincide with Jordan's two years at North Carolina).

And he sure as hell wasn't playing starter minutes in his first couple of seasons.
Yea but youcallilose was basing it off games in general..

[YouCallILose]

Even if that were true, Kobe didn't play 82 games fully his first two seasons in the NBA (which coincide with Jordan's two years at North Carolina).

And he sure as hell wasn't playing starter minutes in his first couple of seasons.

Kobe will have played 40k minutes at the end of this season

Jordan played 41k minutes for his career

[M.V.P]

Kobe will have played 40k minutes at the end of this season

Jordan played 41k minutes for his career
Thanks, that's the info I was looking for.

[KingKobe]

His first two seasons have nothing to do with him being 32.

Also, you're a retard.
o my b nig i thot this kid was talking about career averages. but even then, my man kobes played more minutes in the nba at this point

[bl2k8]

wasn't mike off a year and a half retirement though? Just sayin

[tpols]

In jordans 38887th minute, he was in his last season averaging 20/6/4... so I guess that settles this.

[Walduś]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg
this, he'll average 30ppg in the playoffs anyways.

[Soundwave]

Kobe will have played 40k minutes at the end of this season

Jordan played 41k minutes for his career

Balanced out by the fact that Kobe had the luxury of being the no.2 option in the Lakers offense for 8 seasons.

And was able to come into the league in his early years and play softer minutes behind Eddie Jones.

On top of the fact that with recent NBA rule changes, it's much easier today for scoring guards to get to the foul line to pad their point totals. Defenses were allowed to be much more physical in the 90s.

The 30.4 ppg Jordan put up in 95-96 would probably translate to more like 32 ppg today.

Not to mention even at age 34/35, Jordan was averaging considerably better than 24.9 ppg. 24.9 ppg would be considered an embarrassment for any Bulls-era Jordan for a full season.

[juju151111]

Their a huge difference in age at 40 and 32 youlose. Your a idiot, Comparr MJ at 33-35 and the results is the same.

[jaydacris]

kobe flies his own helicopter to lakers game.. i think we know who da true pimp bawse is

[KingKobe]

kobe flies his own helicopter to lakers game.. i think we know who da true pimp bawse is
:rockon:

[Fatal9]

kobe didnt get playing time his first 2 seasons in the league so this thread is a fail
:oldlol:

[YouCallILose]

Balanced out by the fact that Kobe had the luxury of being the no.2 option in the Lakers offense for 8 seasons.

And was able to come into the league in his early years and play softer minutes behind Eddie Jones.

On top of the fact that with recent NBA rule changes, it's much easier today for scoring guards to get to the foul line to pad their point totals. Defenses were allowed to be much more physical in the 90s.

The 30.4 ppg Jordan put up in 95-96 would probably translate to more like 32 ppg today.

Not to mention even at age 34/35, Jordan was averaging considerably better than 24.9 ppg. 24.9 ppg would be considered an embarrassment for any Bulls-era Jordan for a full season.

uh no it wouldn't. the pace in the 80's/early 90's was much higher than it is today and teams shot much higher percentages from the field as well.

30 ppg in the 80's is more like 28 ppg in today's game and that's taking into account player get to the line more these days

[rodman91]

Kobe had his prime and now his numbers going down..but i expect more slightly more from him in playoffs.It is sure he can not catch up Jordan's individual success anymore but he still has chance to get more rings and make his legacy greater.
Jordan was better basketball player than Kobe with stats or not.It is not easy to be considered as G.O.A.T. from many.But i have always hated new jordan comparision.People are so busy at looking athletic scorering guards so if next legend wouldn't be like that he will be always underrated.

[Walduś]

24.9 ppg would be considered an embarrassment for any Bulls-era Jordan for a full season.
yeah because jordan was a chucker and needed to shoot like 24 times a game.

[Soundwave]

uh no it wouldn't. the pace in the 80's/early 90's was much higher than it is today and teams shot much higher percentages from the field as well.

30 ppg in the 80's is more like 28 ppg in today's game and that's taking into account player get to the line more these days

30.4 ppg is from the 95-96 season, not from the 80s/early 90s. Sorry.

It's quite reasonable that version of Jordan could average an additional 1.6 pgg with other SGs not being able to body him nearly as much.

[YouCallILose]

30.4 ppg is from the 95-96 season, not from the 80s/early 90s. Sorry.

It's quite reasonable that version of Jordan could average an additional 1.6 pgg with other SGs not being able to body him nearly as much.

Was I talking about the 30.4 ppg? I said that these "Jordan would score 50 today" threads are ridiculous. His 37 ppg in the 80's would be more like 33 or 34 ppg in todays game

I'm not a Kobe fan, but this thread is just stupid

[Soundwave]

Was I talking about the 30.4 ppg? I said that these "Jordan would score 50 today" threads are ridiculous. His 37 ppg in the 80's would be more like 33 or 34 ppg in todays game

I'm not a Kobe fan, but this thread is just stupid

Your point is irrelevant then.

I was talking about what his 95-96 stats (age 32/33) would prorate into today. Adding 1.6 ppg to the total is perfectly reasonable given that Jordan. Even Kobe has admitted defenses today are nothing like they were in the late 90s.

[Micku]

Playoff Numbers:

Jordan (32-33): 30.7 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 4.1 APG on .459% FG

Kobe (31): 29.2 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 5.5 APG, on .458% FG

It would be interesting to see what Kobe would do this year.

[KingKobe]

jordan was a stat-padder. he didnt win jack until the 90s when there was no competition :lol

[Fatal9]

Kobe's playing reduced minutes too because of his knees (which would be fine if he just chilled like MJ in the last two years and played no basketball).

per 36, the numbers aren't too different...

MJ 29/6/4 on 58 TS%

Kobe 27/6/5 on 56 TS%

that said, '96 MJ >> current Kobe.

[Soundwave]

Playoff Numbers:

Jordan (32-33): 30.7 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 4.1 APG on .459% FG

Kobe (31): 29.2 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 5.5 APG, on .458% FG

It would be interesting to see what Kobe would do this year.

I think you'll see declines in all categories. And much larger declines in following seasons.

He's faaaaaaading.

[YouCallILose]

Your point is irrelevant then.

I was talking about what his 95-96 stats (age 32/33) would prorate into today. Adding 1.6 ppg to the total is perfectly reasonable given that Jordan. Even Kobe has admitted defenses today are nothing like they were in the late 90s.

average league FG% in 1996-46.2%

average league FG% in 2011-45.6%

[Soundwave]

average league FG% in 1996-46.2%

average league FG% in 2011-45.6%

That doesn't really prove anything. Players today can't shoot for sh-t (not to mention the decline of the big man ... ala Ewing/Olajuwon/DRob who always shot high percentage), fact is it's easier for a guy like Kobe to score today than it was in the 90s.

Kobe has admitted as much himself. You can't breathe on a 2-guard today without getting whistled.

[Fatal9]

MJ also scored with the shortened three point line (shot 40+% from there as a result).

[Walduś]

I think you'll see declines in all categories. And much larger declines in following seasons.

He's faaaaaaading.
30/6/5 for the next 3 years.

[YouCallILose]

That doesn't really prove anything. Players today can't shoot for sh-t, fact is it's easier for a guy like Kobe to score today than it was in the 90s.

Kobe has admitted as much himself. You can't breathe on a 2-guard today without getting whistled.

Average FTA in 1996-26.4 FTA

Average FTA in 2011-24.8 FTA

[Lebron23]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.


No Contest

32 yrs.old Michael Jordan would be the best player in the NBA today.

[Walduś]

MJ also scored with the shortened three point line (shot 40+% from there as a result).
lol kobe would be making those like his midrange jumpers, too easy.

[Soundwave]

30/6/5 for the next 3 years.

He's got maybe one of those playoff runs left in the tank ... but even that I'm starting to doubt.

I think it's going to be more like 28/5/5 this year and dropping every year in the playoffs from there on.

95-96 playoffs were a bit of an anomaly for the Bulls as well as they basically rampaged through the playoffs through several blow outs so Jordan was "icing the knees" come the 4th quarter ... that Orlando series which was supposed to be the toughest for the Bulls was a cake walk.

He scoring averages in the playoffs in 96-97 and 97-98 were higher because they had to be (Bulls relied on him more) ... pretty incredible.

[Fatal9]

That doesn't really prove anything. Players today can't shoot for sh-t, fact is it's easier for a guy like Kobe to score today than it was in the 90s.

Kobe has admitted as much himself. You can't breathe on a 2-guard today without getting whistled.
Average player today is more skilled/talented than the average player from mid 90s. Late 90s were an absolute shit era with the league dealing with the huge expansion effort they undertook from '88-'96. Seriously, it's hard watching games from back then.

[Lebron23]

30 ppg on 49.5 % from the field.

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[Micku]

Was I talking about the 30.4 ppg? I said that these "Jordan would score 50 today" threads are ridiculous. His 37 ppg in the 80's would be more like 33 or 34 ppg in todays game

I'm not a Kobe fan, but this thread is just stupid

They mainly talk about how difficult it is to defend the perimeter players nowadays. I thought the league wanted to increase the play of perimeter players, and made it easier for them to drive and have more space to operate. They don't deny it. Even some coaches joke about it.

So if you have one of the greatest perimeter players of all time playing in a era that allows more perimeter players to operate and score, then Jordan may have it easier in this era. Especially since they establish other rules with big men can't camp in the paint. But if Jordan would take 3s more, then he would be a different player I guess.

I think Jordan averaging 50 is a stretch. I don't think any good coach would allow one player to take that many shots nowadays. But Jordan will average a lot of points. He will destroy teams by driving a lot with picks too, lol. He would also do a lot of work in the post. Bird said that he'll be a PF in today's games since they won't allow physical play like they used to, so he'll get on the FT line more.

Back on topic:

This thread isn't really needed much. It's kind'a self explanatory. The playoff numbers are more interesting. We'll see what will happen, huh?

[YouCallILose]

They mainly talk about how difficult it is to defend the perimeter players nowadays. I thought the league wanted to increase the play of perimeter players, and made it easier for them to drive and have more space to operate. They don't deny it. Even some coaches joke about it.

So if you have one of the greatest perimeter players of all time playing in a era that allows more perimeter players to operate and score, then Jordan may have it easier in this era. Especially since they establish other rules with big men can't camp in the paint. But if Jordan would take 3s more, then he would be a different player I guess.

I think Jordan averaging 50 is a stretch. I don't think any good coach would allow one player to take that many shots nowadays. But Jordan will average a lot of points. He will destroy teams by driving a lot with picks too, lol. He would also do a lot of work in the post. Bird said that he'll be a PF in today's games since they won't allow physical play like they used to, so he'll get on the FT line more.

Back on topic:

This thread isn't really needed much. It's kind'a self explanatory. The playoff numbers are more interesting. We'll see what will happen, huh?

If it's easier these days, then why do the numbers not support it?

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?

[Soundwave]

If it's easier these days, then why do the numbers not support it?

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?

Lots of the people from hardcore basketball enthusiasts to casual observers say a lot of modern players are more interested in developing their dunking ability than their jump shot.

That's not exactly a mystery to anyone.

[G-Funk]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.

How many shots per game did each player take? and how many minutes did each player play?

[YouCallILose]

Lots of the people from hardcore basketball enthusiasts to casual observers say a lot of modern players are more interested in developing their dunking ability than their jump shot.

That's not exactly a mystery to anyone.

lol yet players are much much better 3 point shooters these days

[tpols]

Lots of the people from hardcore basketball enthusiasts to casual observers say a lot of modern players are more interested in developing their dunking ability than their jump shot.

That's not exactly a mystery to anyone.
What?

Players may not have the 'team' mentality they once had, but as far as being skilled individual basketball players the average baller in the nba(ESPECIALLY perimeter players) is considerably better(and bigger) than the average baller of the past.

[mashbelly]

what's the point of this thread?

[Soundwave]

lol yet players are much much better 3 point shooters these days

Doesn't matter for the sake of this argument either way.

Kobe himself has said it's easier for a 2-guard to score today than it was in the 90s when he first broke into the league.

I'll take his word for it since I would imagine he's faced just about every defensive scheme in the book over the course of his career.

[Walduś]

How many shots per game did each player take? and how many minutes did each player play?
kobe: 19 shots 33 min

jordan: 23 shots 38 min

[Fatal9]

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?
Yea, despite the game going global and the talent pool increasing, the athleticism of players increasing, the players are somehow a lot worse. Expansion has also diluted this era, even though the biggest expansion effort took place from '88-'96 but somehow the effects are only felt in this era but not back then. Oh yea, and players can't shoot for shit now either because I said so (league shoots over 2% higher from FT line now compared to '96, which is a great indicator of midrange ability, and hardly a difference in 3pt shooting % despite them having shortened 3 pt line back then).

[Poochymama]

If it's easier these days, then why do the numbers not support it?

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?

Players shoot a lower FG% now because they take more threes.

But it's pretty common knowledge, and even coaches admit that it's easier to score as a perimeter player in today's league and harder to score as a big.

If Jordan played in today's league he would most likely see a 1-2 ppg increase.

[Soundwave]

Players shoot a lower FG% now because they take more threes.

But it's pretty common knowledge, and even coaches admit that it's easier to score as a perimeter player in today's league and harder to score as a big.

If Jordan played in today's league he would most likely see a 1-2 ppg increase.

What the "average player" does is irrelevant to this discussion any way.

Jordan and Kobe are obviously not average players. If Jordan played in the modern context, obviously there's little to no doubt he would exploit the rule changes to score more, just like he exploited any other weakness he spotted in an opposing team.

[YouCallILose]

Players shoot a lower FG% now because they take more threes.

But it's pretty common knowledge, and even coaches admit that it's easier to score as a perimeter player in today's league and harder to score as a big.

If Jordan played in today's league he would most likely see a 1-2 ppg increase.

go look up eFG% stats

[macpierce]

mileage on kobes body is immense at the age of 32............obviously he isnt getting the "easy" buckets like layups/dunks everygame anymore

[tpols]

What the "average player" does is irrelevant to this discussion any way.

Jordan and Kobe are obviously not average players. If Jordan played in the modern context, obviously there's little to no doubt he would exploit the rule changes to score more, just like he exploited any other weakness he spotted in an opposing team.
Average players constitute 95% of the players kobe and jordan went up against when they played.

[Lebron23]

Players shoot a lower FG% now because they take more threes.

But it's pretty common knowledge, and even coaches admit that it's easier to score as a perimeter player in today's league and harder to score as a big.

If Jordan played in today's league he would most likely see a 1-2 ppg increase.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

RBA needs to lock this thread. Jordan would always be better than Kobe.

[Soundwave]

Average players constitute 95% of the players kobe and jordan went up against when they played.

Yeah but how "Joe Average" NBA players gets their offense is irrelevant to this discussion.

The NBA changed its rules several years ago to favor SG/SF players. I don't think anyone really disputes that fact.

Kobe Bryant himself has said that it's easier for him to score today than it was in the 90s because defenses aren't allowed to be as physical today. That's pretty much a fact too.

What "Joe Average" player does today is of minor relevance to this topic.

[YouCallILose]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

RBA needs to lock this thread. Jordan would always be better than Kobe.

nobody is arguing that kobe>jordan

however we are arguing that its retarded to claim that its so much easier to score in todays game, but its clearly not true

arent you some 12 year old vietnamese kid? you didnt even watch jordan play

[Lebron23]

nobody is arguing that kobe>jordan

however we are arguing that its retarded to claim that its so much easier to score in todays game, but its clearly not true

arent you some 12 year old vietnamese kid? you didnt even watch jordan play


Are you an idiot? Who's the Vietnamese kid? I started watching the NBA in 1995.

[Lebron23]

Chucker Arenas averaged 29.5 ppg on 40 FG%. 1996-1998 Michael Jordan would average 32 ppg on 50 FG%.

It's easier to average over 28 ppg if you are just a one dimensional ball hog.

Jordan is a more efficient scorer than LeBron, Wade, Kobe, and Durant.

[Soundwave]

nobody is arguing that kobe>jordan

however we are arguing that its retarded to claim that its so much easier to score in todays game, but its clearly not true

arent you some 12 year old vietnamese kid? you didnt even watch jordan play

And no one ever said "its so much easier to score in today's game".

What I said was it was probably reasonable to assume Jordan's ppg might be a little higher today given the rule changes that Kobe Bryant himself has said makes it easier for a 2 guard like him to score in.

Even if you put that aside, there's still a massive difference between 30.4 ppg and 24.9 ppg. Pretty alarming drop off for Bryant this season.

Does not bode well for Kobe at age 33/34/35, where Jordan was still averaging well above 25 ppg.

[Walduś]

I started watching the NBA in 1995.
and still you don't know shit about it. :roll:

[Micku]

If it's easier these days, then why do the numbers not support it?

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?

I always hear that players nowadays lack of fundamentals. You'll hear old veteran players be like "Yeah, they don't play like they used to. They rather take a jumper instead of the easy shots." It probably because they are grumpy and old age, but there are some true stuff to do that. If you see any games from the 80s and some extent the 90s, they have better footwork with their back to the basket, they start and finish their plays faster, shot selection is better, and etc. But you hear that players are more athletic. Maybe better shooters now too with the 3pts. I think this is evidence with eFG.

Also, I thought the stats does proof it. Look at what happened in the 2000-2004. Then look what happened in 2005-till now. Besides, if the game change that it is easier to foul, coaches will tell you learn to play without fouling even more. There was a debate a while back whatever defenders should play on their feet rather than playing physical.

Doc Rivers quit b-ball around 95 or 96, saying that they couldn't play defense anymore. That was when they limit hand-checking. They even made the game easier apparently now and Doc Rivers joke/serious with Rondo saying that he wouldn't be able play in the 80s and early 90s because they played more physical. It's not a secret with the league. I think everybody say that they allow more space with the perimeter players now. The league is less physical now. The real question is that whatever the defenders are smarter now.

[Ne 1]

Yeah but how "Joe Average" NBA players gets their offense is irrelevant to this discussion.

The NBA changed its rules several years ago to favor SG/SF players. I don't think anyone really disputes that fact.

Kobe Bryant himself has said that it's easier for him to score today than it was in the 90s because defenses aren't allowed to be as physical today. That's pretty much a fact too.

What "Joe Average" player does today is of minor relevance to this topic.

It's cool to hate all you want but you have to admit one thing about Kobe. He's a true student of the game and he would have adjusted accordingly to those rules and you can base that on the fact of how he's been able to last in the league as long as he has. He has more shots in his arsenal than any other player in recent history. Even Jordan....which leads me to my next point.....




Everyone on here knows they are grasping at air when they bring up FG% as a knock on Kobe. Kobe is a volume shooter so his percentage is gonna be lower. I'm sure if he cared about his FG% he'd post up more but it's a reason why so many other players in the league fear him while on the court....he will hurt you in a lot of different ways. Kobe isn't afraid to shoot and he's considered great because it's no one way to shut him down. They say "make him take difficult shots" which he can make a majority of times...and that's it. You can't say "make him dribble to the left...or right...or he passes weak from the post...or etc." Just an honest observation.


I won't ever say Kobe's better than Jordan...but I will say he's closer than people think and just as dangerous.

[Fatal9]

Kobe Bryant himself has said that it's easier for him to score today than it was in the 90s because defenses aren't allowed to be as physical today. That's pretty much a fact too.
Actually Kobe (and T-Mac and Duncan and KG) have all said that team defense is a lot better now. Kobe's commented in the past how he wished league went to 90s rules because it would be easier to score because of how easy it was to create isos. There was giant thread about it even with MJ fans throwing a tantrum at Kobe's comments.

[chazzy]

"Faaaading" despite his efficiency increasing as the season goes on. He's just taking less shots and playing less minutes to save himself for the playoffs; he came off a minor knee surgery and 3 straight finals appearances. He looks better than he did last season right now.. he had 27ppg on worse efficiency playing 39mpg a year ago, compared to 25ppg in 33mpg on a better percentage now.

[Ne 1]

If you compare Kobe & Jordan's eFG% vs the league averages during their time, Kobe is actually more efficient than Jordan although it's marginal

[Soundwave]

Actually Kobe (and T-Mac and Duncan and KG) have all said that team defense is a lot better now. Kobe's commented in the past how he wished league went to 90s rules because it would be easier to score because of how easy it was to create isos.

Even if I give you guys this argument (which I don't agree with, but whatever) fact remains, Kobe is declining a lot compared to Jordan at the same age.

He will probably be at around 22/23 ppg in a couple of years.

The other crazy stat ... in both threepeats ... Jordan's playoff ppg rose every season (indicating the Bulls needed him more as each successive championship was harder so Jordan simply dialed his game up even higher). Incredible.

[Lebron23]

Like Mike I want to be like Mike. You need to shoot like Mike.

[theoneneo]

Wait...Kobe is only Playing 33mpg, Give him 2 more Mins and he's Averaging about 27-28 ppg

[Ne 1]

Like Mike I want to be like Mike. You need to shoot like Mike.

Everyone wanted to be "like Mike" but Kobe is the only one who put in the work and made it.

[Soundwave]

Wait...Kobe is only Playing 33mpg, Give him 2 more Mins and he's Averaging about 27-28 ppg

I don't think he can handle heavier minutes at this stage of his career. He needs the rest.

Playing more minutes for Kobe at this point would probably result in a lower FG% as well as he'd be gassed for late game situations.

[Micku]

Actually Kobe (and T-Mac and Duncan and KG) have all said that team defense is a lot better now. Kobe's commented in the past how he wished league went to 90s rules because it would be easier to score because of how easy it was to create isos. There was giant thread about it even with MJ fans throwing a tantrum at Kobe's comments.

Yeah, I heard of that too.

Bird said the same thing, and then changed his mind recently saying that the defense was better back then. But it would be interesting. The culture of the early 90s and 80s were different. No 3 attempts.

But I dunno. Bird said that defense is smarter and better now, but then he went on saying that they don't allow any physical basketball and back then it was better. Then Mchale and others on NBATV joked around about how the 80s and early 90s were more physical, and then asked if LeBron James could play back then. Then they started saying how different the defense was back then and how it was a bit harder to drive I think, but then they talked how LeBron James will adjust and will lead on the open floor.

So yeah. I dunno. I guess you can't really tell unless you play in the era or coached the era. There are a lot of little things that goes unnoticed and everything.

[Fatal9]

I always hear that players nowadays lack of fundamentals. You'll hear old veteran players be like "Yeah, they don't play like they used to. They rather take a jumper instead of the easy shots." It probably because they are grumpy and old age, but there are some true stuff to do that. If you see any games from the 80s and some extent the 90s, they have better footwork with their back to the basket, they start and finish their plays faster, shot selection is better, and etc. But you hear that players are more athletic. Maybe better shooters now too with the 3pts. I think this is evidence with eFG.
And players from the 60s and 70s used to complain about how you couldn't defend Jordan due to the rules in the 90s, how Jordan wouldn't be able to dunk in the 60s without getting laid out, how you couldn't be physical with MJ (made rule changes on handchecking in '79), how he couldn't just score one on one (changed rules regarding that in '80 with introduction of illegal defenses). Here's Norm van Lier (defensive stopper in 70s) mentioning how the new rules make it impossible to stop MJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

age old cycle of bitching. every player from the past is always insecure about their generation and is going to prop up their era as a result. bet those dudes were saying the same thing in 90s...how Jordan would average less points in the 60s and 70s...how they would kill in the 90s (like Wilt and his 70 ppg claim).

[Ne 1]

Even if I give you guys this argument (which I don't agree with, but whatever) fact remains, Kobe is declining a lot compared to Jordan at the same age.

He will probably be at around 22/23 ppg in a couple of years.

The other crazy stat ... in both threepeats ... Jordan's playoff ppg rose every season (indicating the Bulls needed him more as each successive championship was harder so Jordan simply dialed his game up even higher). Incredible.

So, whats your point?

Jordan is regraded by many people as the greatest player ever. Is not being as good as Jordan a bad thing?

Saying Kobe isn't Jordan really isn

[Walduś]

The other crazy stat ... in both threepeats ... Jordan's playoff ppg rose every season (indicating the Bulls needed him more as each successive championship was harder so Jordan simply dialed his game up even higher). Incredible.
omg don't jizz your pants dude.

[Soundwave]

And players from the 60s and 70s used to complain about how you couldn't defend Jordan due to the rules in the 90s, how Jordan wouldn't be able to dunk in the 60s without getting laid out, how you couldn't be physical with MJ (made rule changes on handchecking in '79), how he couldn't just score one on one (changed rules regarding that in '80 with introduction of illegal defenses).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

age old cycle of bitching. every player from the past is always insecure about their generation and is going to prop up their era as a result.

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is the NBA did change its rules several years ago and the game simply is not as physical today as it was in the 90s.

That's not "nostalgia", that's basically fact, many players attest to this being the case and it's blatantly obvious the NBA did this in a vain attempt to please its TV partners who were complaining loudly in the late 90s/early 2000s (once Jordan wasn't around anymore to buoy ratings) that they didn't want anymore 88-84 type games.

[tpols]

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is the NBA did change its rules several years ago and the game simply is not as physical today as it was in the 90s.

That's not "nostalgia", that's basically fact, many players attest to this being the case and it's blatantly obvious the NBA did this in a vain attempt to please its TV partners who were complaining loudly in the late 90s/early 2000s (once Jordan wasn't around anymore to buoy ratings) that they didn't want anymore 88-84 type games.
Uh.. have you seen any of wilt's and other players from the 60s/70s quotes?

They say the EXACT same thing you're saying about how it was harder to score and finish in the paint..

You're literally doing the same thing those guys did and that's exxagerating the 90s era in opposition to today's 'newer' era.

[Soundwave]

So, whats your point?

Jordan is regraded by many people as the greatest player ever. Is not being as good as Jordan a bad thing?

Saying Kobe isn't Jordan really isn’t saying anything, its just ignoring who he is because of who he is not.

The point is it's simply interesting to compare two players at the same age and see who's declining more.

If the situation was reversed (Jordan averaging 24.9 ppg at the same age that Kobe was averaging 30.4 ppg) .... I imagine there are quite a few posters on this board that would beating that drum pretty freaking loud.

[Soundwave]

Uh.. have you seen any of wilt's and other players from the 60s/70s quotes?

They say the EXACT same thing you're saying about how it was harder to score and finish in the paint..

You're literally doing the same thing those guys did and that's exxagerating the 90s era in opposition to today's 'newer' era.

This is really a separate topic to be honest but ....

Do you deny that David Stern and his cronies changed the way NBA rules are implemented in the 2000s to purposely facilitate more offense?

Yes or no? We know what Kobe Bryant thinks about that issue.

[Ne 1]

btw physical D dosen't = better

defensive schemes today > defensive schemes 2-3 decades ago.

intelligent D > physical D

basketball isn't about who the best bruisers are

[KingKobe]

omg don't jizz your pants dude.
:roll: :roll:
:applause:

[Fatal9]

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is the NBA did change its rules several years ago and the game simply is not as physical today as it was in the 90s.
Defense is easier than '01-'04 (when zone was legal, illegal defense restrictions were removed, handchecking was legal). Now handchecking doesn't even get called all the time, definitly not as much as it was called in '06. I am seeing LeBron get handchecked all over the place tonight when Felton had him on switches, Kobe was handchecked every game during the playoffs last years, it's not like it's not a part of the game anymore, just discouraged (just because there's a speed limit, doesn't mean it doesn't happen). NBA made it easier for Jordan and gang right before he came in the league by changing rules in '81 (not only less physicality by basically taking out the real handcheck, but placing big restrictions on team defenses) would they have trouble scoring in the 70s then?

[tpols]

This is really a separate topic to be honest but ....

Do you deny that David Stern and his cronies changed the way NBA rules are implemented in the 2000s to purposely facilitate more offense?

Yes or no? We know what Kobe Bryant thinks about that issue.
And did the rules and what was called a foul and how players played in general not change from the 60s/70s to the 90s?

The game changed more from that era than it did from the 90s to the 2000s...

[ginobli2311]

If you compare Kobe & Jordan's eFG% vs the league averages during their time, Kobe is actually more efficient than Jordan although it's marginal

doesn't work like that though. the game today is perimeter oriented while the 90s were much more interior.

so that comparison really makes no sense at all.

offensively i think mj and kobe at age 32 were somewhat similar. mj still had more of a burst and played with more strength...but kobe is certainly in his league.

the big difference is defense. jordan was arguably still one of the 3 best defenders in the league at that time. kobe would be lucky to crack the top 30 currently. that is the biggest difference. jordan was an elite defender...kobe is now average at best.

[J-Futuristic]

Terrible post game Lebron.

[Soundwave]

doesn't work like that though. the game today is perimeter oriented while the 90s were much more interior.

so that comparison really makes no sense at all.

offensively i think mj and kobe at age 32 were somewhat similar. mj still had more of a burst and played with more strength...but kobe is certainly in his league.

the big difference is defense. jordan was arguably still one of the 3 best defenders in the league at that time. kobe would be lucky to crack the top 30 currently. that is the biggest difference. jordan was an elite defender...kobe is now average at best.

Yeah Kobe's defense really sucks nowadays. Good point.

He is not only measurably offensively inferior to 32 year old Jordan (regardless of whether you think it's easier to score today or not) ... he is vastly inferior in terms of defense.

[KingKobe]

Terrible post game Lebron.
wrong thread

but good point :oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

Actually Kobe (and T-Mac and Duncan and KG) have all said that team defense is a lot better now. Kobe's commented in the past how he wished league went to 90s rules because it would be easier to score because of how easy it was to create isos. There was giant thread about it even with MJ fans throwing a tantrum at Kobe's comments.

hahahahaha. :roll: :roll:

Yes. you are so right.

enforcing 3 sec rule. enforcing no hand check. enforcing no full court press. enforcing no physical contact rules. Lack of hall-of-fame PFs & Cs coming out of NCAA. & you believe Kobe is right. :roll:

what else did you believed kobe said. That Magic is his idol & not MJ. while his whole game is straight copy of older version of MJ. his actions, his mannerism, his tongue. :facepalm

[gengiskhan]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.

Kobe was never on 1984-1998 MJ's level. never. not even in his prime years.

Kobe was clearly better than 2001-2003 MJ's level. I give you that.

[cp3mvp2011]

90S DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOW

NBA's defence is too soft compare TO 90's tough Defence

BAD BOYS' DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CELTICS/SPURS'S DEFENCE :banana:

[ginobli2311]

90S DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOW

NBA's defence is too soft compare with 90's tough Defence

BAD BOYS' DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CELTICS/SPURS'S DEFENCE :banana:

i disagree. overall defense is slightly better now in my opinion.

a better way to make your point is that 90s perimeter defense was much better than the current perimeter defense. that is really just a fact. way too many perimeter players are scoring efficiently in the current game to deny this.

but team defense is very solid now. defenses are more sophisticated now, and coaches pay more attention to it.

but in terms of perimeter scoring...its simply easier now to score more points at higher efficiency.

[gengiskhan]

mileage on kobes body is immense at the age of 32............obviously he isnt getting the "easy" buckets like layups/dunks everygame anymore

more excuses from kobestans!!

MJ killed himself on defense from 1984 rookie yr to 1997. never took a day off defensively. every passing lane, every steal, every help defense, MJ was there. Its only in 1998 MJ started resting a lot on defense. if not, MJ was either a steals leader or top 3 every yr in steals. Fact: MJ 1st guard to have 100+ blocks & 200+ stls & he repeated this feat again in 1998. no guard has ever done that so far. Kobe was never close to this.

MJ has lot more milage on his legs than Kobe will ever had even if kobe played till 35.

[Micku]

And players from the 60s and 70s used to complain about how you couldn't defend Jordan due to the rules in the 90s, how Jordan wouldn't be able to dunk in the 60s without getting laid out, how you couldn't be physical with MJ (made rule changes on handchecking in '79), how he couldn't just score one on one (changed rules regarding that in '80 with introduction of illegal defenses). Here's Norm van Lier (defensive stopper in 70s) mentioning how the new rules make it impossible to stop MJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

age old cycle of bitching. every player from the past is always insecure about their generation and is going to prop up their era as a result.

I remember that. Magic and Bird said something similar for the Bulls in 96 and stuff when comparing the teams.

And didn't Wilt did say to MJ that they made the rules easier for him and etc?

Like I said, it could be grumpyness. Even with that said, the game changed of how it is played today than back in the 80s and 90s. There were a lot more back to the basket, shot selection, footwork and etc. The rules of the games is something players can get adjusted to I think. There would be minor details that us viewers probably won't comprehend. But there are some rules that are very affective like the 3 second rules, the lack of/more handchecking overall, and 3pt line.

[gengiskhan]

90S DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOW

NBA's defence is too soft compare TO 90's tough Defence
BAD BOYS' DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CELTICS/SPURS'S DEFENCE :banana:

thats the truth.

'90s defense was unimaginable. Knicks, Heat, Pacers, Bulls, Pistons played great trapping defense. remember the phrase in late '80s & '90s "No Blood No Foul" & "defense win ball games". well. Pistons proved that twice. Knicks almost did. But MJ stood in their way.

[Ne 1]

90S DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOW

NBA's defence is too soft compare TO 90's tough Defence

BAD BOYS' DEFENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CELTICS/SPURS'S DEFENCE :banana:


'99 or '04 was the toughest defensive year in the last 25 years.

1999 the league average was 91.6 ppg 43 FG%, 2004 93.4 ppg 43 FG%

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan: 30.4 ppg; 49.5% FG; 6.6 rpg, 4.3 apg

Kobe: 24.9 ppg; 46% FG; 5 rpg, 4.8 apg


Kobe really starting to fade as he ages. Also consider today defenses are not able to be as physical as they were in the 90s.

Jordan was actually 6 months older than Kobe during the seasons in question, too.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Yeah but how "Joe Average" NBA players gets their offense is irrelevant to this discussion.

The NBA changed its rules several years ago to favor SG/SF players. I don't think anyone really disputes that fact.

Kobe Bryant himself has said that it's easier for him to score today than it was in the 90s because defenses aren't allowed to be as physical today. That's pretty much a fact too.

What "Joe Average" player does today is of minor relevance to this topic.
:cheers:

[Walduś]

more excuses from kobestans!!

MJ killed himself on defense from 1984 rookie yr to 1997. never took a day off defensively. every passing lane, every steal, every help defense, MJ was there. Its only in 1998 MJ started resting a lot on defense. if not, MJ was either a steals leader or top 3 every yr in steals. Fact: MJ 1st guard to have 100+ blocks & 200+ stls & he repeated this feat again in 1998. no guard has ever done that so far. Kobe was never close to this.

MJ has lot more milage on his legs than Kobe will ever had even if kobe played till 35.
you're the stan. jordan played 9 years in the league, retired and got 2 years off and came back to play for 3 years and retired again lol. yeah that's exactly the same as playing 15 straight years. :rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ these dudes talking about games played as opposed to age. FACT: a player who is, say, 32 years old and has played 850 games will be in worse shape physically (everything else being equal) than a player who is 29 years old and has played in 850 games. Age is age. Your body ages, you lose athleticism. Period. Little to do with "wear and tear."

Wear and tear is a consideration if you have a chronic injury that worsens with use, like a bad knee injury or something. But just your athleticism declining? That comes from age, not games played.

Let's not even consider the fact that Jordan expended significantly more energy on the court game-in, game-out over his career than Kobe has.

[KingKobe]

you're the stan. jordan played 9 years in the league, retired and got 2 years off and came back to play for 3 years and retired again lol. yeah that's exactly the same as playing 15 straight years. :rolleyes:
:applause: jordan had plenty of time to rest unless u count baseball as work :lol

[ginobli2311]

lol @ these dudes talking about games played as opposed to age. FACT: a player who is, say, 32 years old and has played 850 games will be in worse shape physically (everything else being equal) than a player who is 29 years old and has played in 850 games. Age is age. Your body ages, you lose athleticism. Period. Little to do with "wear and tear."

Wear and tear is a consideration if you have a chronic injury that worsens with use, like a bad knee injury or something. But just your athleticism declining? That comes from age, not games played.

exactly.

games played matters of course. but so does how you play. kobe played limited minutes early on and never played as hard as jordan night in night out for his first 8 years in the league.

[az00m]

yeah because jordan was a chucker and needed to shoot like 24 times a game.

When kobe averaged 35 he took 27.2 shots a game
when jordan averaged 35 he took 24.4

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ Fatal, Ne1 and other Kobe riders in here still not being able to get over the fact that KOBE IS NOT AS GOOD AS JORDAN. PERIOD. These clowns will equivocate, obfuscate, and talk all manner of nonsense to try and act like they're equal. It's hysterical. 14 years into Kobe's career and they're still in denial.

[snipes12]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

and did still pull up better stats and accomplishments...

30000+ > 26000+ points at 1067th game ..

[gengiskhan]

you're the stan. jordan played 9 years in the league, retired and got 2 years off and came back to play for 3 years and retired again lol. yeah that's exactly the same as playing 15 straight years. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. Lets see. Kobe playing first 7 yrs under Shaq camping on perimeter to shoot 3 pointer.

Wait!! lets see. Kobe was benched the rookie yrs & 2nd yr I believe. so where is the milage in his 1st 7 yrs anyways.

Prime kobe only played on the offense becoming a volume scorer in a league that mainly offensive oriented with no real defense rules. still, Kobe never burned his legs to lead NBA in steals or atleast be in top 3 to 5 steals on defense either.

whole thing about Kobe having more milage is a real joke.

MJ 1st 8 yrs killed himself on defense, lead stls 3 yrs, Top 3 in steals probably all 9 yrs, DPOY pre retirement.

In terms of milage, Kobe's 15 yrs = MJs 1st full 6 yrs.

no more than that. Kobe rests way too much, thanks to shaq, coming into NBA too early benched. Never played NCAA like MJ did.

[Ne 1]

LMAO @ Fatal, Ne1 and other Kobe riders in here still not being able to get over the fact that KOBE IS NOT AS GOOD AS JORDAN. PERIOD. These clowns will equivocate, obfuscate, and talk all manner of nonsense to try and act like they're equal. It's hysterical. 14 years into Kobe's career and they're still in denial.

Never said he was.

He is the closest player we have to Jordan though. Again saying Kobe is not as good as Jordan really isn

[OldSchoolBBall]

Never said he was.


Bull.

[Walduś]

In terms of milage, Kobe's 15 yrs = MJs 1st full 6 yrs.

lol what a stan. :applause:

[mashbelly]

Hmmm. Lets see. Kobe playing first 7 yrs under Shaq camping on perimeter to shoot 3 pointer.

Wait!! lets see. Kobe was benched the rookie yrs & 2nd yr I believe. so where is the milage in his 1st 7 yrs anyways.

Prime kobe only played on the offense becoming a volume scorer in a league that mainly offensive oriented with no real defense rules. still, Kobe never burned his legs to lead NBA in steals or atleast be in top 3 to 5 steals on defense either.

whole thing about Kobe having more milage is a real joke.

MJ 1st 8 yrs killed himself on defense, lead stls 3 yrs, Top 3 in steals probably all 9 yrs, DPOY pre retirement.

In terms of milage, Kobe's 15 yrs = MJs 1st full 6 yrs.

no more than that. Kobe rests way too much, thanks to shaq, coming into NBA too early benched. Never played NCAA like MJ did.

In terms of idiocy, gengiskhan = KingKobe.

[ginobli2311]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Never said he was.

He is the closest player we have to Jordan though. Again saying Kobe is not as good as Jordan really isn

[Ne 1]

Kobe playing first 7 yrs under Shaq camping on perimeter to shoot 3 pointer.

Kobe was NOT just getting spoon fed open shots, if anything, he directly created for Shaq more with his penetration.

[az00m]

waldus calls mj a chucker :lol

[Lebron23]

Marcus Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KObe Bryant

[KG5MVP]

waldus calls mj a chucker :lol

i wouldn't be surprise if waldus claims the sun revolves around the earth, like common, it's waldus, get use to it

[gengiskhan]

Kobe was NOT just getting spoon fed open shots, if anything, he directly created for Shaq more with his penetration.

Yes he was. Kobe never played PG creating easy alley-oops for Shaq like MJ played PG in 1989. If kobe was creating, his assists & triple double would've been way up with all the mad skillsets kobe has according to kobtards.

Kobe always played SG with or without Shaq. in other words, Kobe was creating for shaq just as much as Harper & Fisher did with Shaq.

Kobe was getting spoon fed perimeter jumpers cuz shaq was focus of opposition for double triple team not kobe.

[Ne 1]

closest in what terms? playing style? of course he is.

but not in dominance or level of play or impact. lebron or wade are closer to jordan in those terms.

Nope. Kobe is better in all those areas as well.

Jordan agrees.

[gengiskhan]

closest in what terms? playing style? of course he is.

but not in dominance or level of play or impact. lebron or wade are closer to jordan in those terms.

Important point no doubt.

I doubt Kobe ever was as dominant as Lebron was forget MJ. Kobe's level of play is great in his prime but in terms of impact & dominance, kobe cannot even match up to Lebron.

I agree on that.

[ginobli2311]

Nope. Kobe is better in all those areas as well.

Jordan agrees.

nope. he's simply not.

i don't agree. why do people reference what others think. jordan also thought kwame brown and morrison would be star nba players. he traded rip hamilton for an aging stackhouse.

jordan is one of the worst evaluators of players i know of.

but by all means.....reference what another human being says as gospel. makes sense.

[Micku]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Never said he was.

He is the closest player we have to Jordan though. Again saying Kobe is not as good as Jordan really isn

[Ne 1]

Yes he was. Kobe never played PG creating easy alley-oops for Shaq like MJ played PG in 1989. If kobe was creating, his assists & triple double would've been way up with all the mad skillsets kobe has according to kobtards.

Kobe always played SG with or without Shaq. in other words, Kobe was creating for shaq just as much as Harper & Fisher did with Shaq.

Kobe was getting spoon fed perimeter jumpers cuz shaq was focus of opposition for double triple team not kobe.

Kobe was the facilitator.

His production was legit, the one benefit he had from playing with Shaq aside from winning was that he wasn't the primary focus of the defense, but this is the most important part, and anyone who watched those teams knows this....

Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. Kobe was NOT just getting spoon fed open shots, if anything, he directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring.

[gengiskhan]

nope. he's simply not.

i don't agree. why do people reference what others think. jordan also thought kwame brown and morrison would be star nba players. he traded rip hamilton for an aging stackhouse.

jordan is one of the worst evaluators of players i know of.

but by all means.....reference what another human being says as gospel. makes sense.

MJ has serious ego problem. He aint aging will. He is full of grudge & hatred.

His UNC fan boying is the most annoying ever. & the way he says "dukies" is just pure hatred & self loathing.

MJ is just a fool. If he can really get away. MJ will assembled the whole Bobcats roster with UNC players only.

I bet the only reason he traded Hamilton for Stack cuz of UNC bull shit.

[cp3mvp2011]

KOBE IS NOT BETTER ALL-AROUND PLAYER THAN MJ,MJ IS BETTER DEFENCDER,HIGHER BBALL than Kobe also :rockon:

[CLTHornets4eva]

Jordan had to carry the Bulls from day 1.

While I agree with the games played arguement, carrying from day 1 is much more of a factor than the extra years where Kobe was the 4, 3rd or 2nd fiddle on the Lakers.

[Svendiggity]

closest in what terms? playing style? of course he is.

but not in dominance or level of play or impact. lebron or wade are closer to jordan in those terms.

Kobe could walk onto the Heat and impact that team more than Lebron and Wade. Wade and Lebron would give him the ball with the game on the line, and do whatever he said.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe could walk onto the Heat and impact that team more than Lebron and Wade. Wade and Lebron would give him the ball with the game on the line, and do whatever he said.

what?

kobe is a better game winning shot player than both lebron and wade. both wade and lebron are better player makers in that situation though.

lol at the idea of kobe and wade or kobe and lebron co existing. give me a break.

[G-Funk]

Kobe is better than Lebron and Wade. He's not better than Jordan though

[Ne 1]

nope. he's simply not.

i don't agree. why do people reference what others think. jordan also thought kwame brown and morrison would be star nba players. he traded rip hamilton for an aging stackhouse.

jordan is one of the worst evaluators of players i know of.

but by all means.....reference what another human being says as gospel. makes sense.

Yeah. He simply is.

lol @ looking at the draft. 99% gm's are wrong. Witnessing talent and guessing is too different things.

Who said MJ made great decisions as a gm?

Do you honestly think your opinion holds more weight than Jordan's? :oldlol: Not only does Jordan agree but so does Bird and Magic.

legends of the game> nerds on a message board

who should we listen to Jordan who won 6 rings or Kobe haters on the internet who typically look like this :
http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/southpark-wow-2.jpg

[Svendiggity]

what?

kobe is a better game winning shot player than both lebron and wade. both wade and lebron are better player makers in that situation though.

lol at the idea of kobe and wade or kobe and lebron co existing. give me a break.

How are they better play-makers? because neither have the courage to take over leadership of the team, and they pass the ball to role players with the game on the line? They get better stats that way. More assists when the corner three point shooter makes it, and better field goal percentage because they didn't take the tough shot. You call it play-making, I call it being a coward.

[jstern]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg
You know, I never really thought about that, but you're right. 32 year old Kobe is > than 40 year old Jordan on his 1067th game.

[sekachu]

btw physical D dosen't = better

defensive schemes today > defensive schemes 2-3 decades ago.

intelligent D > physical D

basketball isn't about who the best bruisers are



Physical defense is more effective than intelligent defense imo, and it's more effective to defend a player who is faster and quicker than you with physcial defense, not only can contain a quick player but also disturb their overall rhythm.

[ginobli2311]

Yeah. He simply is.

lol @ looking at the draft. 99% gm's are wrong. Witnessing talent and guessing is too different things.

Who said MJ made great decisions as a gm?

Do you honestly think your opinion holds more weight than Jordan's? :oldlol: Not only does Jordan agree but so does Bird and Magic.

legends of the game> nerds on a message board

who should we listen to Jordan who won 6 rings or Kobe haters on the internet who typically look like this :
http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/southpark-wow-2.jpg

what about barkley? or west? or magic all last year? or oscar robertson saying lebron was better than jordan?

i have plenty of ammunition on my side as well. i just don't need it because i will destroy you (as usual) in a debate.

[chazzy]

Kobe was getting spoon fed perimeter jumpers cuz shaq was focus of opposition for double triple team not kobe.
True, Kobe was pretty much a glorified James Jones with a fro during the 3peat

[Lebron23]

How are they better play-makers? because neither have the courage to take over leadership of the team, and they pass the ball to role players with the game on the line? They get better stats that way. More assists when the corner three point shooter makes it, and better field goal percentage because they didn't take the tough shot. You call it play-making, I call it being a coward.

Would you please $hut the F*ck up? Watch some Miami Heat games before you open your filthy mouth.

You are a horrible poster, horrible human being, and someone needs to punch you in your ugly face.

F*ck you.

[ginobli2311]

How are they better play-makers? because neither have the courage to take over leadership of the team, and they pass the ball to role players with the game on the line? They get better stats that way. More assists when the corner three point shooter makes it, and better field goal percentage because they didn't take the tough shot. You call it play-making, I call it being a coward.

lol do you remember the blazers game this year? or even how about this game tonight. you act like lebron was passive late. he made the right plays down the stretch. he found a wide open teammate for a 3 to tie the game. that is the right basketball game.

you do realize that kobe shoots well below the league average on game winning shots right? you do realize that kobe rarely makes the right pass and often ends up taking terrible shots. kobe is just so good that he makes some of the them, but over time kobe misses far more than he makes. you just remember the makes because you don't watch every game and you just watch the highlights.

please don't call lebron or wade cowards. that is just laughable. want to compare playoff game winners between kobe and lebron since 06?

its like 5 to 1 in lebron's favor.
:roll:

[Svendiggity]

lol do you remember the blazers game this year? or even how about this game tonight. you act like lebron was passive late. he made the right plays down the stretch. he found a wide open teammate for a 3 to tie the game. that is the right basketball game.

you do realize that kobe shoots well below the league average on game winning shots right? you do realize that kobe rarely makes the right pass and often ends up taking terrible shots. kobe is just so good that he makes some of the them, but over time kobe misses far more than he makes. you just remember the makes because you don't watch every game and you just watch the highlights.

please don't call lebron or wade cowards. that is just laughable. want to compare playoff game winners between kobe and lebron since 06?

its like 5 to 1 in lebron's favor.
:roll:

You say I don't watch games, and you're the one who's arguments are stat driven. You don't know me, how could you possibly know how many games I watch? And I never once said anything about game winners. I said Kobe has the courage to take leadership control, and take the necessary risks to win games. How are Wade and Lebron not cowards? Neither of them have ever came close to being leaders of that team. They're afraid of what each other, and other people will think of them if they make a decision people don't like. My original point was that Kobe would step in and assume leadership and the ball when the game is on the line. How can you argue that? Lebron and Wade would give him the ball at the end, and let him lead the team.

[Ne 1]

what about barkley? or west? or magic all last year? or oscar robertson saying lebron was better than jordan?

i have plenty of ammunition on my side as well. i just don't need it because i will destroy you (as usual) in a debate.

Barkley "'Kobe Bryant is one of the five greatest NBA players ever'"

Jerry West said that 2 years ago but has changed his views since then and has said Kobe is better and also thinks Kobe is the GOAT Laker. Magic also said Kobe was better and also said Kobe is the GOAT Lakers.

U Mad?

btw you've never destroyed anything you delusional nutcase. who should we listen to Jordan who won 6 rings and is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes to ever live or someone who spends all their time on the internet hating on a player because he's mad that he is everything he's not?

gino = http://thinkmoult.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/fat_geek.jpg :blah :blah I hate Kobe!

[ginobli2311]

You say I don't watch games, and you're the one who's arguments are stat driven. You don't know me, how could you possibly know how many games I watch? And I never once said anything about game winners. I said Kobe has the courage to take leadership control, and take the necessary risks to win games. How are Wade and Lebron not cowards? Neither of them have ever came close to being leaders of that team. They're afraid of what each other, and other people will think of them if they make a decision people don't like. My original point was that Kobe would step in and assume leadership and the ball when the game is on the line. How can you argue that? Lebron and Wade would give him the ball at the end, and let him lead the team.

i don't know what would happen. i just know that trying to pretend kobe is a great leader is laughable. but whatever.

lebron and wade are better than kobe and have been for the last few years. its my opinion. your opinion is different. whether or not michael jordan or jerry west or barkley or anyone human being agrees or disagrees is irrelevant to me.

i watch the same games as they do.

now...it is was overwhelmingly in favor one guy...then it would matter. but its not. i've seen countless players say kobe is better. i've seen countless players say lebron is better.

[LAClipsFan33]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

Let's just ignore the fact that by this time Jordan had sat out like 4 years of a potential career while Kobe played through continuously

[BEAST Griffin]

If it's easier these days, then why do the numbers not support it?

There were more foul calls in the 90's. Players shot higher FG%'s in the 90's. Do players just suck now? Is that what has happened? Somehow players got worse?

You are so simple minded.

You can't just take overall FG% and make such a comparison.

Are more 3 pointers being attempted these days or not?

Are there less high scoring big men these days or not?

Are there less points in the paint these days or not?

etc.

This all influences overall FG%...

[Ne 1]

kobe is a great leader is laughable. but whatever.

Kobe's leadership qualities are astonishing.

He would make a great player-coach like Bill Russell on the '66-'69 Celtics.

[Jacks3]

Old Kobe> Old MJ.

Face the facts.

[KG5MVP]

Old Kobe> Old MJ.

Face the facts.

and the fact is where?

[Svendiggity]

Kobe's leadership qualities are astonishing.

He would make a great player-coach like Bill Russell on the '66-'69 Celtics.

This.

[Ne 1]

This.

Yeah, Kobe has become almost like a modern day Bill Russell (player/coach/mentor/on court leader for the Lakers).

[ginobli2311]

Kobe's leadership qualities are astonishing.

He would make a great player-coach like Bill Russell on the '66-'69 Celtics.

based on what?

he routinely makes low IQ basketball plays. more than any star player i can remember. he routinely breaks the offense. he routinely freezes out teammates. he routinely shot jacks.

he was called uncoachable by the greatest coach ever. he mailed in a game 7 2nd half in 06. he clowned bynum and asked for the lakers to trade bynum for kidd.

he publicly demanded a trade because he felt his teammates weren't good enough.

how is that inspiring confience or indicative of great leadership.

this is why kobe is so damn over-rated. he's now a great leader? give me a ****ing break.

[BEAST Griffin]

based on what?

he routinely makes low IQ basketball plays. more than any star player i can remember. he routinely breaks the offense. he routinely freezes out teammates. he routinely shot jacks.

he was called uncoachable by the greatest coach ever. he mailed in a game 7 2nd half in 06. he clowned bynum and asked for the lakers to trade bynum for kidd.

he publicly demanded a trade because he felt his teammates weren't good enough.

how is that inspiring confience or indicative of great leadership.

this is why kobe is so damn over-rated. he's now a great leader? give me a ****ing break.

repped.

[Jacks3]

and the fact is where?
This Kobe> MJ with equal mileage, which is more important than age.

:lol

[LAClipsFan33]

repped.

This.

[Ne 1]

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship that Bynum described with bugged-out eyes this way: "His shooting is ridiculous at this point."


http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-06-15/sports/24820282_1_trevor-ariza-kobe-bryant-bryant-s-teammates

Incredible article. I don't like exaggerating and saying one player made another player...but damn, Kobe made Ariza. Wonder how is career would have turned if he never got traded to the Lakers.

The evidence is just overwhelming. So overwhelming that I don't know if there has been another non-PG player this decade who has positively affected the game of so many teammates (perimeter players generally can create more for teammates). Part of it is the defensive attention Kobe draws (most out of any perimeter player in this era), but his passing has also always been underrated because he doesn't go out of his way to put up gaudy assist numbers.

A lot of it though is just the leadership he has shown since becoming #1 option, which some may call ruthless, but I call effective, and it's really what separates him from a LeBron or Wade. His teammates might not like him, but his motivation/drive has clearly rubbed off on all of them (you think Pau Gasol was screaming after every dunk before?). And then as that article mentions, there is this coaching aspect to Kobe's leadership, which can only really be undertaken by a player as intelligent and obsessed with perfection as Kobe is. Creating drills for teammates? Picking up the chalkboard and drawing up plays or going over reasons for a botched play? Reading with remarkable clarity how the opponent is playing defense or running offensive sets, and passing it on to teammates...you think that doesn't make them better? In all honesty, I must say we're looking at those rare sports leaders that come once in a generation.

[KG5MVP]

This Kobe> MJ with equal mileage, which is more important than age.

:lol

MJ in 1998 is better than a prime Kobe

[ginobli2311]

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship that Bynum described with bugged-out eyes this way: "His shooting is ridiculous at this point."


http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-06-15/sports/24820282_1_trevor-ariza-kobe-bryant-bryant-s-teammates

Incredible article. I don't like exaggerating and saying one player made another player...but damn, Kobe made Ariza. Wonder how is career would have turned if he never got traded to the Lakers.

The evidence is just overwhelming. So overwhelming that I don't know if there has been another non-PG player this decade who has positively affected the game of so many teammates (perimeter players generally can create more for teammates). Part of it is the defensive attention Kobe draws (most out of any perimeter player in this era), but his passing has also always been underrated because he doesn't go out of his way to put up gaudy assist numbers.

A lot of it though is just the leadership he has shown since becoming #1 option, which some may call ruthless, but I call effective, and it's really what separates him from a LeBron or Wade. His teammates might not like him, but his motivation/drive has clearly rubbed off on all of them (you think Pau Gasol was screaming after every dunk before?). And then as that article mentions, there is this coaching aspect to Kobe's leadership, which can only really be undertaken by a player as intelligent and obsessed with perfection as Kobe is. Creating drills for teammates? Picking up the chalkboard and drawing up plays or going over reasons for a botched play? Reading with remarkable clarity how the opponent is playing defense or running offensive sets, and passing it on to teammates...you think that doesn't make them better? In all honesty, I must say we're looking at those rare sports leaders that come once in a generation.


ariza:

07 on magic:

9 points on 54% shooting. 4 boards. took 6.5 shots a game. 22 minutes a game.

09 on lakers:

9 points on 46% shooting. 4 boards. took 7.3 shots a game. 24 minutes a game.

10 on rockets:

15 points on 39% shooting. 5.6 boards. took 14 shots a game. 37 minutes a game.

11 on hornets:

11 points on 39% shooting. 5.7 boards. takes 10 shots a game. 35 minutes a game.



:facepalm

wow. ariza is so much better. he can now score like 3 or so more points per game than he did in 07 in orlando while shooting like 15% worse from the field. his per minute rebounding has gone down as well.

LOL.

owned.

[Jacks3]

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

It worked. Ariza had made nine 3-pointers in his first four NBA seasons. This season, he made 61 as a prelude to his 47.6 percent playoff marksmanship that Bynum described with bugged-out eyes this way: "His shooting is ridiculous at this point."


http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-06-15/sports/24820282_1_trevor-ariza-kobe-bryant-bryant-s-teammates

Incredible article. I don't like exaggerating and saying one player made another player...but damn, Kobe made Ariza. Wonder how is career would have turned if he never got traded to the Lakers.

The evidence is just overwhelming. So overwhelming that I don't know if there has been another non-PG player this decade who has positively affected the game of so many teammates (perimeter players generally can create more for teammates). Part of it is the defensive attention Kobe draws (most out of any perimeter player in this era), but his passing has also always been underrated because he doesn't go out of his way to put up gaudy assist numbers.

A lot of it though is just the leadership he has shown since becoming #1 option, which some may call ruthless, but I call effective, and it's really what separates him from a LeBron or Wade. His teammates might not like him, but his motivation/drive has clearly rubbed off on all of them (you think Pau Gasol was screaming after every dunk before?). And then as that article mentions, there is this coaching aspect to Kobe's leadership, which can only really be undertaken by a player as intelligent and obsessed with perfection as Kobe is. Creating drills for teammates? Picking up the chalkboard and drawing up plays or going over reasons for a botched play? Reading with remarkable clarity how the opponent is playing defense or running offensive sets, and passing it on to teammates...you think that doesn't make them better? In all honesty, I must say we're looking at those rare sports leaders that come once in a generation.
This. Kobe, along with Nash and Duncan, is the best leader in the game. The guy's obsession with the game and incredible work-ethic just rubs off on his teammates. Guys like Ariza, Brown, Odom, Pau have personally attributed Kobe's mentality as one of the reasons for their improvements, not only in terms of technical proficiency (shooting with Ariza and Brown, strength with Pau etc) but also in terms of helping them develop and garner that mental toughness that you need to win championships. :applause:

[Jacks3]

MJ in 1998 is better than a prime Kobe
:roll:

[Svendiggity]

based on what?

he routinely makes low IQ basketball plays. more than any star player i can remember. he routinely breaks the offense. he routinely freezes out teammates. he routinely shot jacks.

he was called uncoachable by the greatest coach ever. he mailed in a game 7 2nd half in 06. he clowned bynum and asked for the lakers to trade bynum for kidd.

he publicly demanded a trade because he felt his teammates weren't good enough.

how is that inspiring confience or indicative of great leadership.

this is why kobe is so damn over-rated. he's now a great leader? give me a ****ing break.

So Kobe isn't a great leader? Do you want to go on the record with this? Please say yes. And everyone on here can bookmark this page.

[BEAST Griffin]

So Kobe isn't a great leader? Do you want to go on the record with this? Please say yes. And everyone on here can bookmark this page.

I'll go on record.

Kobe is not a great leader.

[Ne 1]

This. Kobe, along with Nash and Duncan, is the best leader in the game. The guy's obsession with the game and incredible work-ethic just rubs off on his teammates. Guys like Ariza, Brown, Odom, Pau have personally attributed Kobe's mentality as one of the reasons for their improvements, not only in terms of technical proficiency (shooting with Ariza and Brown, strength with Pau etc) but also in terms of helping them develop and garner that mental toughness that you need to win championships. :applause:

:rockon:

Here's another article from a few years ago.


Oddly enough, the guy who for years the media has said does not make his teammates better, has indeed done a much better job.
The guy named Kobe Bryant.

Let's take a look at his teammates:
Smush Parker = bounced around from team to team for a couple of years, never having averaged more than 6.2 points or shot better than 41.9%. The previous season he averaged 3 points per game. Yet he averaged 11.5 and 11.1 in two years with Kobe, having career best numbers in both shooting and three point shooting in each of those seasons. He left to the Miami Heat last season, where he saw his average drop by 6.3 points, his shooting percentage by 12.1% and his three point shooting by 11.5%. He is now in China playing for a Chinese team, in case you are wondering.

Chris Mihm was a 45% shooter on his career, with a career high 48.8% from the field. Not only did he have career highs in scoring average during each of his first two seasons with the Lakers but he also shot above 50% in each of those seasons prior to his injury.

Kwame Brown = had never shot above 49% in his career, yet he shot 52.6% and 59.1% as a Laker. He was traded mid-season last year to the Grizzlies and since that trade he has seen his field goal percentage drop from 50.3% to 35.3%, now he is in Detroit and is scrubbing floors.

The other big man in that trade,
Pau Gasol = has seen his field goal percentage raise from 50.1% in Memphis to a whopping 59% alongside of Kobe, as well as raising his scoring average by 1.8 per game. Gasol is a 51.1% career shooter who had never shot better than 53.8%, he finished last season by 58% and is shooting at 56% this season.

The third piece of that trade,
Javaris Crittenton = has seen his shooting percentage drop from 49.1% to 38% since it was made. Now, he is in a slumping Wizards team getting garbage time.

Another mid-season acquisition in
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga = has seen a similar rise. He shot 31.3% from the field before, and 39.1% in 16 games with Golden State this year. He has shot 45.5% in 14 games with the Lakers last last year. This season he is at 58.3%, upped his BPG (1.7) and his PPG (from 2.5 to 3.7), all doing it at below 10 mins per game of play.

Derek Fisher = three years away from L.A. (with GS and UTAH) saw him shoot 39.3%, 41% and 38.2% from the floor. Since returning to the Lakers he has shot 44% last season and 42% this season. He upped his 3pt%, rpg, and apg, this season.

Laron Profit = suffered a career ending injury in his first season as a Laker. In the 25 games prior to his injury though he shot 47.6%, his previous career high was 43.8% with two seasons under 40%.

Jumaine Jones = shot 39.1% from beyond the arc and 43.2% from teh floor playing alongside Kobe, after shooting 34.4% from teh floor and 29.5% from beyond the arc the season before. Since leaving he has never shot better than 40.5% from teh floor or 34.3% from long range.

Chucky Atkins also had arguably his best season alongside of Kobe, scoring 13.6 per game while shooting 38.7% from beyond the arc. He hasn't matched either number since. Now he's stacking up DNPs in Denver.

Lamar Odom = has in the eyes of some struggled to co-exist with Kobe. In many ways this is true, as both guys like to have the ball in their hands. In reality though he had shot under 43.9% in each of his three previous seasons before joining Bryant, and never above 46% in his career. He has shot 47.3%, 48.1%, 46.8% and 50.4% in his four seasons with the Lakers. His scoring has dropped slightly, by a couple of points a game.

Trevor Ariza = a bench before being traded away by the Magic, he has been setting career-highs in points, 3pt%, rebounds, assists, and steals this year.

Josh Powell = 19 minutes with the clippers last season, 5.5 points. 11 minutes with the Lakers this season, 5 points. 8 less minutes, no change at all. After a 46% shooting season last year, he is now up at 49% and counting. And as of late, he has been making a strong case for being a starter.

The only odd case is
Caron Butler = became an all-star after being traded from the Lakers, and some might use that as justification that Kobe held him back. The reality though is that Caron averaged a career high in both points per game and in field goal percentage in his season with Kobe. His field goal percentage jumped 6.5% from the season before and was 2.9% higher than his previous career best.

In the end, there is plenty of evidence to support Kobe making his teammates better.

[KenneBell]

lol @ these dudes talking about games played as opposed to age. FACT: a player who is, say, 32 years old and has played 850 games will be in worse shape physically (everything else being equal) than a player who is 29 years old and has played in 850 games.
Is it really?

I really don't think Grant Hill would be playing in the NBA right now had he not missed so much due to injury.

In Jordan's case, he missed almost almost 3 years before he hit his second retirement. I think that had a lot to do with how well he performed down the later stretches of his career.

You don't have to agree but there are differing opinions on the age vs mileage debate.

[BEAST Griffin]

:rockon:

Here's another article from a few years ago.

Confirmation bias check: POSITIVE.

[LAClipsFan33]

Why is Kobe always credited with a player's improvement when coming to the Lakers ? I guess the Lakers great coaching staff and excellent shooting coaches don't mean anything when compared to Kobe

[KenneBell]

Just to add to previous post, I wouldn't be comparing this Kobe to '96 MJ. You can compare age but there's too much of a separation of game played and minutes for that comparison to be fair IMO.

A better comparison would be to '98 MJ in terms of game mileage.

[The Iron Fist]

Why is Kobe always credited with a player's improvement when coming to the Lakers ? I guess the Lakers great coaching staff and excellent shooting coaches don't mean anything when compared to Kobe


With that logic,

why is any player credited with another players improvement?

[LAClipsFan33]

Just to add to previous post, I wouldn't be comparing this Kobe to '96 MJ. You can compare age but there's too much of a separation of game played and minutes for that comparison to be fair IMO.

A better comparison would be to '98 MJ in terms of game mileage.

So essentially what your saying is that Michael Jordan didn't log any game wear and tear on his body while at UNC ?

[Svendiggity]

Why is Kobe always credited with a player's improvement when coming to the Lakers ? I guess the Lakers great coaching staff and excellent shooting coaches don't mean anything when compared to Kobe

Yes, everything helps, but when you have a player who is out there battling with you every night, it is different than a coach teaching you. Phil helps, Fisher helps, and Kobe does. They all deserve credit. They are all passionate and inspiring people to be around.

[LAClipsFan33]

With that logic,

why is any player credited with another players improvement?

What I'm saying is that every player (i.e. Shannon Brown) who improves his game while on the Lakers is credited to Kobe when obviously its the shooting coaches who have worked with him to make his jump shot better

[KenneBell]

So essentially what your saying is that Michael Jordan didn't log any game wear and tear on his body while at UNC ?
He did. But he played what...90 games? And let's not compare ACC basketball to the NBA.

[LAClipsFan33]

Yes, everything helps, but when you have a player who is out there battling with you every night, it is different than a coach teaching you. Phil helps, Fisher helps, and Kobe does. They all deserve credit. They are all passionate and inspiring people to be around.

I agree with this. People acting like playing for one of the greatest coaches in history and one of the best staffs in basketball is a non factor

[The Iron Fist]

What I'm saying is that every player (i.e. Shannon Brown) who improves his game while on the Lakers is credited to Kobe when obviously its the shooting coaches who have worked with him to make his jump shot better


I know what you're saying,

but why not hold everyone to the same standard?

Why just ask this of Kobe?

[D.J.]

When MJ turned 32, he had just come back from not playing for a year and a half. As another poster mentioned, comparing the two of them with their number of games, Jordan's 1,067th game was when he was 40 and was still putting up 20 a night.

[LAClipsFan33]

He did. But he played what...90 games? And let's not compare ACC basketball to the NBA.

Also another point...If you knock a player off balance in the air it is now a flagrant. For like 75% of Jordan's career you could tackle a man at the basket with no flagrant call. Who's to say Jordan didn't put more wear and tear on his body driving to the basket so hard for his 1st 8 years facing this type of opposition and getting slammed to the floor ? To me it's not something you can really measure.

[LAClipsFan33]

I know what you're saying,

but why not hold everyone to the same standard?

Why just ask this of Kobe?

I do hold every team to this standard. I'd credit coaching more than a player on improvement generally speaking.

[BEAST Griffin]

Some Kobe fans in this thread are really trying to argue that 8 years difference in age (32 and 40) is an insignificant factor compared to equal mileage.

:lol

[LAClipsFan33]

When MJ turned 32, he had just come back from not playing for a year and a half. As another poster mentioned, comparing the two of them with their number of games, Jordan's 1,067th game was when he was 40 and was still putting up 20 a night.

That was me...I got a negative rep with a note that said "Shut the f*ck up" for that too. These dudes be steaming lol

[The Iron Fist]

I do hold every team to this standard. I'd credit coaching more than a player on improvement generally speaking.


So then you don't believe in the "he makes his teammates better" argument then?


Good,

neither do I. I've always thought it was a lame attempt to try and hype players up for what their teammates accomplished. I've always maintained that player a does not shoot, pass or rebound for players b,c,d and e.

[Svendiggity]

Some Kobe fans in this thread are really trying to argue that 8 years difference in age is an insignificant factor compared to equal mileage.

:lol

Do you dislike Kobe based off of things his fans say about him? I feel like many people on here do.

[magnax1]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg
That's actually really interesting. It's not like it's really fair to compare Jordan at 40 to Kobe now, nor is it fair to compare them at the same age since Kobe came into the league a lot earlier, and probably has played more playoff games at this point (just guessing, not really sure)
Though it's interesting how short Jordan's career is compared to a lot of other all time players.

[KenneBell]

Also another point...If you knock a player off balance in the air it is now a flagrant. For like 75% of Jordan's career you could tackle a man at the basket with no flagrant call. Who's to say Jordan didn't put more wear and tear on his body driving to the basket so hard for his 1st 8 years facing this type of opposition and getting slammed to the floor ? To me it's not something you can really measure.
True. But Loki is trying to totally discredit the mileage argument like it doesn't exist. It does. Otherwise no one would make a big deal out of it.

He says that a 32 year old with 850 games is less athletic than a 28 year old with 850. Fine.

I still say that a 32yo player with close to 1300 games and 47000 minutes isn't the same as a 32yo player with ~950 games and ~38000 minutes. That is a fact.

[LAClipsFan33]

So then you don't believe in the "he makes his teammates better" argument then?


Good,

neither do I. I've always thought it was a lame attempt to try and hype players up for what their teammates accomplished. I've always maintained that player a does not shoot, pass or rebound for players b,c,d and e.

Yes. To a certain extent it can be true. By drawing attention he can make life easier for them, but it's still up to them to execute. Even more so for an improvement in shooting I'd attribute it to the coaches. Craig Hodges been doing work over there.

I think a player doesn't make them better. He can get them higher quality looks that maybe they weren't getting on their previous team. Sometimes it's just that the whole team is better and its a collection of guys making your life easier as a player. I think this is the case with the Lakers...they have so many mismatches that you have to let Shannon Brown do whatever he wants to guard against the other guys going off. So basically just by being a Laker Shannon Brown gets easier looks than he ever has...probably in his lifetime.

[LAClipsFan33]

True. But Loki is trying to totally discredit the mileage argument like it doesn't exist. It does. Otherwise no one would make a big deal out of it.

He says that a 32 year old with 850 games is less athletic than a 28 year old with 850. Fine.

I still say that a 32yo player with close to 1300 games and 47000 minutes isn't the same as a 32yo player with ~950 games and ~38000 minutes. That is a fact.

That's all true

[LAClipsFan33]

That's actually really interesting. It's not like it's really fair to compare Jordan at 40 to Kobe now, nor is it fair to compare them at the same age since Kobe came into the league a lot earlier, and probably has played more playoff games at this point (just guessing, not really sure)
Though it's interesting how short Jordan's career is compared to a lot of other all time players.

Yeah It bothers me that Jordan went emotionally insane in the middle of his career when his pops died. He could have had a good shot at tying or breaking the 8 titles in a row record.

[ginobli2311]

So Kobe isn't a great leader? Do you want to go on the record with this? Please say yes. And everyone on here can bookmark this page.

no. kobe is not a great leader. he's and adequate leader. i see nothing in him now or throughout his career to compare him to bill russell. that is laughable to me.

[magnax1]

Yeah It bothers me that Jordan went emotionally insane in the middle of his career when his pops died. He could have had a good shot at tying or breaking the 8 titles in a row record.
Well I could see 94, but not 95. 95 without Rodman or Grant is just to weak of a roster, both Jordan and Pippen would be extremely worn down with a 6th straight deep playoff run, and having 94 off allowed Jordan to rebuild his game in the summer of 95 to increase his longevity a good bit. In 92 and 93 you could already tell he was declining, and from 96-98 he looked almost exactly the same in the playoffs each year, except maybe the conference finals and finals in 98.

[KenneBell]

That's all true
I miscalculated that's 950 games and ~36500 minutes.

That's a gap of 400 games and 10000 minutes. I think that cancels out the age difference between he and Jordan of '98. Loki can argue about age all he wants but MJ IMO saved himself from a lot of impact by having that retirement and missing most of the '86 and '95 seasons.

As for Kobe being a leader, I think he's really grown into the role especially over the last 3 seasons. He's had a great impact on the overall attitude of Gasol and even guys Shannon and Artest.

[NBASTATMAN]

I don't really buy the "Kobe played more seasons" arguement too much.

It's not like Michael Jordan wasn't playing basketball every day when he was 18/19/20. You really think he only started playing basketball on a daily basis when he got to the NBA?

And it's not like Kobe didn't have it considerably easier coming into the league first being able to play behind Eddie Jones and most importantly having Shaq to play with in his first 9 seasons or whatever that was.

Jordan had to carry the Bulls from day 1.



I agree but does this even matter... MJover kobe any day.. Not a bad thing for Kobe its just the truth... Kobe is making his mark and has to be respected...

[The Iron Fist]

Yes. To a certain extent it can be true. By drawing attention he can make life easier for them, but it's still up to them to execute. Even more so for an improvement in shooting I'd attribute it to the coaches. Craig Hodges been doing work over there.

I think a player doesn't make them better. He can get them higher quality looks that maybe they weren't getting on their previous team. Sometimes it's just that the whole team is better and its a collection of guys making your life easier as a player. I think this is the case with the Lakers...they have so many mismatches that you have to let Shannon Brown do whatever he wants to guard against the other guys going off. So basically just by being a Laker Shannon Brown gets easier looks than he ever has...probably in his lifetime.


I agree to an extent as well.


Playing alongside a great player will always help out those who are less talented.

Look at the careers of past Lakers who played from 05 to 08.
Many had their best seasons playing next to Kobe, and those were shitty teams.

[LAClipsFan33]

Well I could see 94, but not 95. 95 without Rodman or Grant is just to weak of a roster, both Jordan and Pippen would be extremely worn down with a 6th straight deep playoff run, and having 94 off allowed Jordan to rebuild his game in the summer of 95 to increase his longevity a good bit. In 92 and 93 you could already tell he was declining, and from 96-98 he looked almost exactly the same in the playoffs each year, except maybe the conference finals and finals in 98.

I don't know...wish I would have seen it. Imagine what kind of epic series Jordan would have had fighting uphill

[NBASTATMAN]

I miscalculated that's 950 games and ~36500 minutes.

That's a gap of 400 games and 10000 minutes. I think that cancels out the age difference between he and Jordan of '98.

Loki can argue about age all he wants but MJ IMO saved himself from a lot of impact by having that retirement and missing most of the '86 and '95 seasons.


True.. But Mj played in a league where real contact was allowed.. Even his haterz,, Isiah Thomas, has spoken about this... Kobe, Wade and Bron have not.. Though at least Kobe played in a league where you could touche them in the early 2000's.. Wade and bron have benefitted even more than Kobe from the new rules..

[ginobli2311]

http://rlv.zcache.com/festival_of_frags_stat_whore_tshirt-p235708321428140616qji6_210.jpg

explain to me how ariza is better?

nothing has shown up in his play in games.

is he better in practice or something? maybe.


but to be perfectly honest, when i watched ariza on the magic in 07...i thought he'd be a better player than what he has become. he was only 21 years old that year and should have naturally progressed more than he has. back then he was a solid role player with a lot of potential that played solid defense.

now? he's less efficient from the field and takes way too many 3 point shots. and what did kobe tell ariza to do? take more threes. so i really think that hampered his game to be honest.

seriously. why was ariza taking 6 threes a game in houston? he came to the lakers and got into the bad habit of taking a lot of threes. and its hurt his impact. he's now a sub 40% shooter overall. he gets to the line much less based on minutes played. his rebounding is worse......and to be honest....he's not as aggressive defensively.

crediting kobe with turning ariza into a good player is laughable. he's regressed if anything.

please respond.

[KenneBell]

True.. But Mj played in a league where real contact was allowed.. Even his haterz,, Isiah Thomas, has spoken about this... Kobe, Wade and Bron have not.. Though at least Kobe played in a league where you could touche them in the early 2000's.. Wade and bron have benefitted even more than Kobe from the new rules..
I understand that. But still, that disparity for a given age is very hard to ignore. It's huge.

[Svendiggity]

True.. But Mj played in a league where real contact was allowed.. Even his haterz,, Isiah Thomas, has spoken about this... Kobe, Wade and Bron have not.. Though at least Kobe played in a league where you could touche them in the early 2000's.. Wade and bron have benefitted even more than Kobe from the new rules..

Isiah Thomas said that Larry Bird was overrated.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Is it really?

I really don't think Grant Hill would be playing in the NBA right now had he not missed so much due to injury.

In Jordan's case, he missed almost almost 3 years before he hit his second retirement. I think that had a lot to do with how well he performed down the later stretches of his career.

You don't have to agree but there are differing opinions on the age vs mileage debate.

That's an extreme case, since Hill missed a ton of games/seasons. The point is, yes, he's athletic for someone his age, and that's at least partially attributable to the games he missed. However, he's not nearly as athletic as he would be if he were, say, 33 years old with the same number of games under his belt as he has now.

[OldSchoolBBall]

True. But Loki is trying to totally discredit the mileage argument like it doesn't exist. It does. Otherwise no one would make a big deal out of it.

He says that a 32 year old with 850 games is less athletic than a 28 year old with 850. Fine.

I still say that a 32yo player with close to 1300 games and 47000 minutes isn't the same as a 32yo player with ~950 games and ~38000 minutes. That is a fact.

I agree with that last paragraph; I just think that actual physical age is the more prominent factor in terms of declining athleticism. Games played certainly has an effect, but not an effect equivalent to 3-4 years of ACTUAL age (which is the case w/MJ and Kobe when they played the same # of games), especially not as one enters their early-mid 30's.

[KenneBell]

I agree with that last paragraph; I just think that actual physical age is the more prominent factor in terms of declining athleticism. Games played certainly has an effect, but not an effect equivalent to 3-4 years of ACTUAL age (which is the case w/MJ and Kobe when they played the same # of games), especially not as one enters their early-mid 30's.
I guess. I just don't see MJ as your typical 34/35 year old NBA player towards the end of his Bulls run. Nevermind that he was athletically superior to everyone but he just hadn't played as much as his contemporaries.

Doesn't really take anything away from him though. He's still numero uno overall.

[cp3mvp2011]

kobe is overrated by kobe's fans boy:rockon:

[Svendiggity]

kobe is overrated by kobe's fans boy:rockon:

lol so?

[ukplayer4]

Average FTA in 1996-26.4 FTA

Average FTA in 2011-24.8 FTA




i just want to clarify, are you suggesting that this some how shows that it isnt easier to get to the line today or that fouls are called more freely for less contact cause LMAO
classic case of kids expossing themselves as not having watched the nba during the era they are trying to debate- basically what this forum is all about!

[Ne 1]

http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/02/caron-butler-grateful-he-was-kobe-bryant.html

:bowdown:

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Kobe's playing in his 1067th game

The season Jordan played in his 1067th game his numbers were

20 ppg 44.5 FG% 6.1 rpg 3.8 apg

That's a reach. Jordan was 38 that season.

[RoseCity07]

kobe didnt get playing time his first 2 seasons in the league so this thread is a fail

You're making an argument that supports Jordan, but the way you wrote that it sounds like an excuse for Kobe.

If Kobe didn't play his as much his first two seasons, you'd think his body would be fresher.

[NoName22]

kobe flies his own helicopter to lakers game.. i think we know who da true pimp bawse is

He could fly or teleport like the god he is, but he wants to conform to us human beings :bowdown: