Gary Payton has become insanely underrated

[D.J.]

On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.

[Showtime]

Um, only people who never watched Payton, or only values one side of the court would rank Nash higher.

[bl2k8]

co-sign

[Nash-tastic]

Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. Effeciency wise, their about the same to me. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.

[hayden695]

Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. Effeciency wise, their about the same to me. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.
How are they same efficiency wise?

[PowerGlove]

On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.
:applause:

Ignoring payton is a terrible disservice to the history of bball.

[Meticode]

Payton > Nash to me, always has been.

[Iraqnback]

Agreed but you probaly dealing with kids that started really watching the game in 2003 and so on.....The Glove was baller all around:cheers:

[D.J.]

Payton > Nash to me, always has been.


I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.

[I'm Seriously]

Nash fan here... In my mind, Nash is the better shooter and passer but Payton is a MUCH better defender and could score in more ways. Effeciency wise, their about the same to me. I would rank Payton higher than Nash anyways.

Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.

[hayden695]

Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.
This.

[chains5000]

Um, only people who never watched Payton, or only values one side of the court would rank Nash higher.
Agreed, I'm a huge fan of Nash but Payton was clearly better.

[Force]

Anybody who dares to rank Nash over Payton simply has not watched basketball for very long. Payton is the greater player and it's not even that close. GP was incredible on defense, plus he had a damn good post up game and was a great leader.

[Meticode]

I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.
It's ISH, people will debate Rose over Payton man. :oldlol:

[StateOfMind12]

I don't think it's even debatable. I think Kidd > Nash and that doesn't even get to Payton.
Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.

[LT Ice Cream]

I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes.

But from what you guys are saying, it seems that he should be rated above Nash because Nash is a poor defender.

[I'm Seriously]

Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.

Please explain.

[Meticode]

I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes.

But from what you guys are saying, it seems that he should be rated above Nash because Nash is a poor defender.
Payton would've had a ring. But Jordan said no no.

[hayden695]

Payton would've had a ring. But Jordan said no no.
Payton does have a ring though!


:lol

[Force]

Kidd-Nash is debatable, but I give the edge to Nash there. That being said, I felt like Nash benefited greatly from the no hand-checking rule. It took away one of his biggest weaknesses.

Yes, right after the hand check rule changed and defenses weren't allowed to guard the paint, Nash went off and excelled. I think every point guard today is overrated. Thomas and KJ would have murdered everyone if they played with today's rules. You don't even need to have a jumpshot to be a top PG today. If defenses can't touch you, you are going to be able to make a play.

Kidd was far below Payton's level of defense, but Kidd was a VERY VERY good defender. All those all defense teams he has he actually earned and deserved.

[iamgine]

If I have a good defensive big, I'd pick Nash. Otherwise Payton. Lets not forget Steve Nash is one of the GOAT shooter and GOAT playmaker.

[keep-itreal]

What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?

[D.J.]

What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?


He was versatile. He could shoot threes if he had to, but he was streaky so he didn't shoot too many for most of his career. He was excellent in the post for his size and he took smart shots. Payton was efficient and rarely took low percentage shots. That's why before Kemp left, he was regularly shooting 50% or close to it.

[DeronMillsap]

I love the Glove. I was rooting for him in 1996.
Payton is a top 5 PG, and will be there for awhile.

[Nash-tastic]

How are they same efficiency wise?


Payton's career TS% 52.8 Paytons peak TS% 56.4 averaging 20.6 PPG

Nash's career TS% 60.6 Nash's peak TS% 65.4 averaging 18.6 PPG

I agree that the Glove was the better all around player, but effeciency wise it's Nash and it's not even close.

I stand corrected.

[ProfessorMurder]

I love the Glove. I was rooting for him in 1996.
Payton is a top 5 PG, and will be there for awhile.

Top 5:

Magic/Big O/Stockton/Isiah/Glove

Cousy could be in there too I suppose.

[LT Ice Cream]

He's still no Rondo. Or Rose for that matter.

[oh the horror]

I didn't start watching basketball until 2008, and most of the people you are dealing with here probably never saw Payton play either. It's not that we underrate him, he is just unfortunately irrelevant for my generation of NBA fans. Even Jordan will be relatively unknown by the youth 10 years from now. That's just how it goes.
.



Shit, thats already starting now.

[Force]

What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?

He had the mid range game, he had the running floater, he was good at going to the whole and finishing with a lay up but he also was very very good with his post up game. Dribbling with his back to the hoop just backing his defender down. I can't think of very many instances of GP dunking a ball, lol. Rose has a way to go before he can deserved to be mentioned with the likes of GP.

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.

[LT Ice Cream]

Shit, thats already starting now.

yup, sports stars only remain popular with those who witnessed their feats first-hand. Jordan is just the guy from 2k11 according to some of the kids I deal with.

[oh the horror]

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.



And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court. :oldlol:

[D.J.]

And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court. :oldlol:


He made Bimbo Coles cry. Dead serious.

[Disaprine]

On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.
:applause:

[GP_20]

I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again :lol

[Mr Clutch Melo]

I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again :lol

He baaaaaaack...

Shit just got serious:lol

[Bigsmoke]

he defended MJ better than anybody IMO.

I thought he outplayed him in a few of those games but his efforts wasnt good enough :)

[Fatal9]

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

[Teanett]

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

i agree with this. payton is still one of the greats and one of my favourites.

[Teanett]

and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.

[Premeditated]

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.

[Teanett]

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.

that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.

[Bigsmoke]

that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.

i'm too lazy to look at the boxscores but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.

I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.

[BallsOut]

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.

Gary was also a vocal leader in the locker room as evidenced by this motivational speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpB6J5-fm8

[Teanett]

i'm too lazy to look at the boxscored but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.

I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.

game 4

MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21


game 6


MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22

you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.

[GOBB]

I'm curious to why some posters feel a player is underrated if that player isnt mentioned recently. Especially a player from another era? Is Kevin Johnson insanely underrated? Dennis Johnson? John Stockton? Especially John, when was the last time this guy was typed out in a post here? Heck I dont even see anyone comparing him to a younger player.

There was a thread on here which ranked the top PGs of all time. Most agreed with how the Pgs ranked. Including GP. I'm just saying. Posters today will talk about Bron, Pierce, Melo but it doesnt mean Dr J is underrated because no one mentions him. Shaq will be mentioned as a great big men in NBA history, it doesnt mean Moses Malone is insanely underrated because he's rarely mentioned.

[magnax1]

No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.

[GP_20]

game 4

MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21


game 6


MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22

you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.

I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the 1996 DPOY Gary Payton.

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating. But yes, Karl probably regret not putting Payton on Jordan from the start. Here is what NBA analyst Walton had to say about that


Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series




In fact, later on Harper got injured and Jordan had to guard Payton as well. And honestly, Payton outplayed him in their head to head matchups.

Bill Walton himself said



Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series
-Bill Walton



Quite an accomplishment to outplay the GOAT in his prime in the NBA Finals head to head
:applause:

[LJJ]

I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the 1996 DPOY Gary Payton.

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating.

You are back?

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!


Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.

[GP_20]

Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.
You mean my word in saying I am gone forever?

Well I said I'd comeback to defend Payton. Nothing more nothing less.

[GP_20]

and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.

This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?


The Sonics in 1996 were ranked #2 in the league in defense, behind the Bulls who had Jordan/Pippen/Rodman all in their primes. All 3 made All-D 1st. Payton had no one teammate on All-Defensive team members, yet he anchored Seattle to be the 2nd best defense in the league. Furthermore, they were #1 in TOs. Karl gets some credit too, but Payton was the defensive anchor of that Sonics team.

Hakeem, Mutombo, if their "defense" made more impact in 96 I'd expect their teams to have played better defense than Payton's Sonics. This just was not the case.

And Pippen had Jordan/Rodman, it becomes MUCH easier to play defense when you have such great defensive teammates.




I think anchor of the 2nd best defense in the league, #1 in steals playing tremendous team defense, and some exceptional 1on1 defense, Payton was well worthy of the 1996 DPOY. No other player had the team defense and individual defense resum

[Teanett]

imary defender

Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.



i don't know about you but to me and most people
26 ppg is still dominating.
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? payton is stackhouse's biaatch!

[GP_20]

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

Do you have no respect for defense at all?
You are missing that Nash is a defensive liability. The Suns have to make a game plan around Nash considering that any opposing star PG is going to go abuse him. I've seen it too many times. I remember the series against the Suns, the Spurs game plan was to have Parker go after Nash. And the Suns had to counter that with giving help defense for Nash. It's things like this, 40 minutes a game, that add up and really make a difference.


1st of all even the 1st year after Kemp left the Sonic's were a Top 10 team defensively. By the time Karl left Payton had lost a step or 2 on defense, but Payton and Karl's defensive scheme styles really helped each other. I mean, even Karl didnt' have as much defensive success with Milwaukee or Denver. And with Payton anchoring Seattle's defense, they were one of the top defenses over the decade. In 1996 they were #2 in defense, as good as any dominant Center led defense should be.

Right? At the end of the day it's about stopping the opposing team from scoring. And a Payton anchored defense did as good as Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson led defenses did.

Thus, the impact was there. When you have a PG like Payton who terrorizes the opposing team's PG, the whole offensive flow is then affected and your team struggles on offense. That's what made Payton' defense so valuable.



I'd rather have Payton's 25/10 series with 40 minutes of hard defense rather than Nash's 30/12 with him being a defensive liability for 40 minutes any day. And so would most. I mean, I wonder how much better Payton could've played offense if he didn't waste all his energy on defense. He played his heart out on defense and offense. And if you've played any sport, you know how much your stamina/energy on offense and defense matters for you to play them better. It's actually quite amazing what he was able to do 40 mintues a night.

[GP_20]

i don't know about you but to me and most people
26 ppg is still dominating.
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? payton is stackhouse's biaatch!
:roll:

Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:

[GP_20]

No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.
:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm

[Teanett]

This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?


i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.

[Teanett]

:roll:

Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:

yes, because the bulls won.

[GP_20]

What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?

He could do it all. He is a Top 3 Post PG of All-Time. At 6'4, excellent in the post and could score at will. Had many moves in the post and his size enabled him to be very good at scoring down low.

Then he was also called the "Lay-Up" king. Not that great at drawing contact and getting to the line, but just was an excellent driver and finisher. In fact, when Payton went to drive I was most confident that he would score. Excellent finisher and had a great 1st step.

Then he could shoot as well. He's not a Steve Nash or something, but still a good shooter. He led the leagues in 3s one year, and had a pretty reliable mid-range jump shot as well. Struggled with it early in his career but became a good jump shooter later on.


So there's not one thing Payton couldn't do on offense. Multiple ways of scoring making it hard for any one guarding him.

[magnax1]

:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm
Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.

[GP_20]

i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.

The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.

Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.

And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.

[GP_20]

Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.

Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.

[GP_20]

yes, because the bulls won.
They went 2-2 in the stretch GP was primary defender on Jordan

[Teanett]

The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.

Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.

And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.

the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.

[D.J.]

As for the 1996 Finals, you can't be dominant while shooting sub 40%. At that point, you're just as much of a liability by giving away possessions and potential points. Many people were fighting for Rodman to win Finals MVP over Jordan. Hell, Shawn Kemp had a case over Jordan according to quite a few people.

[magnax1]

Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.
Exactly how? Oscar's 30-12-12 translates to 23-8-8 in today's statistics (not exacly fair, but It's close enough) On top of that, he was a more skilled post player, and a better shooter, better passer, better rebounder. Better everything except defense.
Magic hopefully doesn't need much of an explanation.
Isiah in his peak is probably the best PG ever, even though it was fairly short. He was a better scorer then Payton, capable of sustaining 25 ppg for a playoff run, and also capable of still getting his team mates involved while doing it, something Payton couldn't do while scoring his regular 20 ppg.
Stockton is 100 times the passer Payton was, Scored 17 points while in the flow of the offense, instead of stagnating it like Payton did. He was as great of a team defender as Payton arguably better, the only thing Payton realistically has on him is his 1 on 1 defense.
Cousy is difficult to compare because he played much of his career in the 50's. However he was an MVP winner, was a great passer, and was much better compared to the average PG he played then Payton.

[GP_20]

the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.

Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?

You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96

#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE


Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?

[FindingTim]

there's something about seeing former stars as television "analysts" that slightly alters my overall perception of the player (the mental snapshots of said players legacy)

in other words, when I see Payton wiseassin on TV it somehow taints the glorious perception I have of him in my head. You know what else taints my view of Payton? seeing him run with the Heat like a poor man's Eric Snow. now that will taint a perception!~

[comerb]

and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.

:facepalm

Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.

[Teanett]

Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?

You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96

#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE


Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?

1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:

#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season

so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:

[Teanett]

:facepalm

Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.

never said he wasn't.
i just think others could impact a game defensively more than he did.

[GP_20]

1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:

#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season

so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:

You've got to be kidding me. :lol

Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.

In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low 101.8 points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest 102.1 points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.


And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:

Look at it this way

#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.

Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.


Payton won his DPOY by a landslide. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?


Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.

And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.



I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.




Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.

[Teanett]

You've got to be kidding me. :lol

Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.

In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low 101.8 points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest 102.1 points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.


And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:

Look at it this way

#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.

Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.


Payton won his DPOY by a landslide. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?


Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.

And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.



I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.




Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.

you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.

and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?

the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.

twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.

[GP_20]

you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.

and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?

the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.

twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.

Neither Jordan, Pippen, nor Rodman were at their peaks defensively. But they were all still good, good enough for All-Defensive 1st.

Pippen's defensive cast was still A LOT STRONGER than Payton's. It's not even close. Jordan and Rodman are 2 of the greatest of all-time and were both All-Defensive 1st. Payton had no All-Defensive team member on his team. LOL at comparing a bunch of average to solid defenders to JORDAN and RODMAN. :roll:

I've never seen so much insult on defense to Rodman and Jordan until now. This is just sad.



I don't know about you but I'm not dumb enough to ignore every fact thrown at me.


1. Payton's team, with a FAR WORSE defensive cast around him allowed virtually the SAME POINTS per 100 possessions as Pippen's team. If Pippen was a better defender, you'd expect his team along with Jordan and Rodman (2 All-D 1st members) to hold teams to substantially lower points than Payton and no one strong helping him. But this is not the case. Payton's ability to lead his team to as great of defense as Pippen/Jordan/Rodman Bulls is actually amazing.

2. You know people who were watching the NBA at the time (not you apparently), analysts and everyone, they said Payton was DPOY by a LANDSLIDE.

Please tell me when are awards given incorrectly to a LANDSLIDE winner? :facepalm

3. Payton led the league in steals, while Pippen was now in his 30s and all his defensive stats had fallen down drastically from the year before.




I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?


I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:



.

[GP_20]

I'm actually stunned at how stupid ISH has become. This guy here has no case at all yet he is still arguing. Just because he "initially" thought so, he doesn't want to change his opinion.


I really bet I could make a better argument for Kobe to receive 3-4 DPOYs than this guy is making for Pippen to get DPOY in 96. It's actually ridiculously sad. :facepalm I mean, EVERY sign points towards Payton, I still can't believe I actually have to explain some of this.



Honestly bro, your argument right now for Pippen is as strong as this:

"I think Nash should've won DPOY last year because I thought so".


That's it. :facepalm


Stop embarrassing yourself. Your only argument was that he led the league in steals in playoffs, and DPOYs are given in the regular season. Fail.

[Micku]

Don't think he's underrated. He is one of the top PG of all time and one of the best perimeter defenders. Once Nash and Kidd retires, then ppl will adjust to them. But Nash and Kidd are great PGs too.

[Dro]

Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh

[Teanett]

I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?


I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:



.

you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?

he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.

but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.

[GP_20]

you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?

he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.

but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.
:roll:

Gary Payton had FAR WORSE defensive teammates. Yet their team defenses were virtually equal. (0.3ppg)

Do you understand that? If the Bulls were FAR better on defense (at least 5ppg) then I wouldn't have a case. But since Payton by himself was able to take his team to a defensive level to the equals of Rodman/Jordan/Pippen, this means something.


Seriously, this is just hilarious. :oldlol:
You remind of me of 1st grade. But even I wasn't this stupid in 1st grade.



Once again ignore all the facts, stats, opinions, judgements, and everything. You have Pippen. You can make Kobe the DPOY last year as well. The case is just as strong as Pippen's in 96. Maybe even stronger.


What's your guys's argument?

"Because because I thought so..."



:facepalm

[Teanett]

Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh

you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?

[GP_20]

you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?

Mid-way Game 3 Payton started guarding him. Game 4 Jordan also started guarding Payton (Harper went down with an injury). So they were matched Head to Head


Games 4-6

Michael Jordan
22/60 36.7% 23.7ppg 5.3rpg 3.7apg 3.7tpg

Gary Payton
21/43 48.9% 21.0ppg 5.3rpg 8.0apg 2.7tpg


Who outplayed who the 2nd half the series as they went at each other head to head?




Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series
-Bill Walton


All I'm gonna say is this, Jordan is lucky Payton wasn't guarding him the whole series. The 1996 DPOY was just sick.

[GP_20]

And prior to the series, does anyone remember how bad Payton dominated John Stockton? Both these guys were around the same level coming in, All-Stars and All-NBA 2nd team members.


But the domination Payton exhibited on Stockton in the WCF was the PG equivalence to the dominance Hakeem displayed on Robinson in the WCF a year ago. It's this series that puts Hakeem over Robinson for good, and Payton over Stockton for good.


Here is how it went:


Game 1:
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


Game 2:
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


Game 3:
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl


Game 4:
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


Game 6:
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


Game 7:
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4


Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3





The 15/11/53% shooting Stockton, was shut down. While Payton scored and shot at even a higher % than his season numbers. No excuse for Stockton here, Payton outplaying Stockton cost the Jazz a close series. He was doubled in the scoring department and even assists was close.
And both were looking for their 1st Final's App. at the time, so it was a very important series for both .

[GP_20]

But yes that's just how it is with Payton. A PG you just don't want to face. He makes it very difficult for you to guard him with a very well rounded offensive game, where he can score in multiple ways and also a good passer/playmaker. And then on the other end you have to try and get your offensive game going against the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

It's not surprising that even HOFs like Stockton and Jordan have been outplayed head to head the worse in series against Gary Payton. Just a very difficult task to go against such a great PG.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.

The same PG who locked down Kobe from 2000-2002. Even Kobe said that nobody defended him better than a point guard (Eric Snow) in 2001-02 the same Snow that shut down Kobe in the 2001 NBA Finals.

PG's can lock down elite SG's. It happens.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the 1996 DPOY Gary Payton.

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating. But yes, Karl probably regret not putting Payton on Jordan from the start. Here is what NBA analyst Walton had to say about that


Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series




In fact, later on Harper got injured and Jordan had to guard Payton as well. And honestly, Payton outplayed him in their head to head matchups.

Bill Walton himself said



Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series
-Bill Walton



Quite an accomplishment to outplay the GOAT in his prime in the NBA Finals head to head
:applause:
Jordan was definetly not in his prime during the 2nd 3-peat.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

But yes that's just how it is with Payton. A PG you just don't want to face. He makes it very difficult for you to guard him with a very well rounded offensive game, where he can score in multiple ways and also a good passer/playmaker. And then on the other end you have to try and get your offensive game going against the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

It's not surprising that even HOFs like Stockton and Jordan have been outplayed head to head the worse in series against Gary Payton. Just a very difficult task to go against such a great PG.

I couldn't agree anymore with the statement. Peyton was under-rated.

[magnax1]

And prior to the series, does anyone remember how bad Payton dominated John Stockton? Both these guys were around the same level coming in, All-Stars and All-NBA 2nd team members.


But the domination Payton exhibited on Stockton in the WCF was the PG equivalence to the dominance Hakeem displayed on Robinson in the WCF a year ago. It's this series that puts Hakeem over Robinson for good, and Payton over Stockton for good.


Here is how it went:


Game 1:
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


Game 2:
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


Game 3:
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl


Game 4:
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


Game 6:
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


Game 7:
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4


Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3





The 15/11/53% shooting Stockton, was shut down. While Payton scored and shot at even a higher % than his season numbers. No excuse for Stockton here, Payton outplaying Stockton cost the Jazz a close series. He was doubled in the scoring department and even assists was close.
And both were looking for their 1st Final's App. at the time, so it was a very important series for both .
Why do you keep comparing a past his prime John Stockton to a peak Gary Payton? Especially since he got dominated in game 7 anyway. It's more accurate to say it was Hakeem dominating Robinson if it was 94 Hakeem vs 97 Robinson.
And why do you keep saying Seattle had anywhere near the best defense in 96?
Sonics-
102 defensive rating (2nd)
96.7 points allowed (8th)
playoffs defensive rating 104 (7th)
Bulls-
102 defensive rating (1st)
93 points allowed (3rd)
99 playoff defensive rating (1st)
They are the best in absolutely no defensive category. Not close.

[GP_20]

Why do you keep comparing a past his prime John Stockton to a peak Gary Payton? Especially since he got dominated in game 7 anyway. It's more accurate to say it was Hakeem dominating Robinson if it was 94 Hakeem vs 97 Robinson.
And why do you keep saying Seattle had anywhere near the best defense in 96?
Sonics-
102 defensive rating (2nd)
96.7 points allowed (8th)
playoffs defensive rating 104 (7th)
Bulls-
102 defensive rating (1st)
93 points allowed (3rd)
99 playoff defensive rating (1st)
They are the best in absolutely no defensive category. Not close.

Past prime Stockton? Based on what? Don't say age because Stockton aged like wine, kind of like Steve Nash. Both were very much in their primes, and Stockton was just 33. Kidd, Nash, and even Payton were in their "primes" at that age. Are you saying Stockton, known for his longevity, fell faster than all 3 of them?

In fact, he was All-NBA 2nd, and putting upt 15/11 on 54%. Just last year he was considered the best PG in the NBA at 15/12. There was not a huge drop at all. Stop trying to make excuses here.

I agree he wasn't at his peak, but neither was Payton. His best years were yet to come.

Bottom-line, both were at around the same level, All-NBA 2nd.


But the matchup wasn't even close. It was like watching Smush vs. Tony Parker. The difference between how they played was that great. Not what you would expect out of 2 HOF PGs in their Prime at around the same level (All-NBA 2nd)

That's just how bad Payton dominated John Stockton.

And LOL at the Game 7 remark. 1st of all, the stats were close but Payton came out with the W. 2nd of all, there would have been no Game 7 if Stockton hadn't been outplayed so bad. Stockton being dominated by Payton cost the Jazz the series. Malone did his part, but Prime Payton was just so much better than Prime Stockton here.




Defensive Rating (Points Allowed per 100 possessions) is the greatest indicator of a team's defense. Obviously Seattle was up-tempo so they would allow more points overall, and playoffs is what 4 opponents lol?
Both not good indicators.


I said Seattle was the 2nd best team on defense that year, and they were according to the best measure. That's all. And virtually tied with 1st (0.3ppg away), with 1st being Jordan/Rodman/Pippen. Payton though himself took his team to that level.


:applause:

[magnax1]

Past prime Stockton? Based on what? Don't say age because Stockton aged like wine, kind of like Steve Nash. Both were very much in their primes, and Stockton was just 33. Kidd, Nash, and even Payton were in their "primes" at that age. Are you saying Stockton, known for his longevity, fell faster than all 3 of them?

In fact, he was All-NBA 2nd, and putting upt 15/11 on 54%. Just last year he was considered the best PG in the NBA at 15/12. There was not a huge drop at all. Stop trying to make excuses here. [/QUOTE]
How about based on statistics, or watching a shitload of his games over the years. He'd gone from 17-14 and 3 steals to 15-11 with 2 steals. Is that not an obvious decline? On top of that he wasn't a very good man to man defender at that point, and wasn't near as good of a team defender which was what he was great at on defense. Mostly because he didn't have near the stamina, he couldn't run on all cylinders for 40 minutes.
And was Kareem in his prime at 33? Just because you're known for longevity doesn't mean you're in your prime into your mid 30's.
I
agree he wasn't at his peak, but neither was Payton. His best years were yet to come.
96 was definitely Payton's best year. The only change he would go through the next 5 years is playing more minutes, taking worse shots, and slowly becoming a worse defender.


Bottom-line, both were at around the same level, All-NBA 2nd.
No, Payton was better in 96, but it's a stupid comparison because Stockton wasn't in his prime.


But the matchup wasn't even close. It was like watching Smush vs. Tony Parker. The difference between how they played was that great. Not what you would expect out of 2 HOF PGs in their Prime at around the same level (All-NBA 2nd)
Exaggeration of the century. First off, Stockton outplayed Payton in the 7th game by a pretty large margin, and Payton was playing 46 minutes a game in that series, and still barely met his season average. That's what you call dominating?



And LOL at the Game 7 remark. 1st of all, the stats were close but Payton came out with the W. 2nd of all, there would have been no Game 7 if Stockton hadn't been outplayed so bad. Stockton being dominated by Payton cost the Jazz the series. Malone did his part, but Prime Payton was just so much better than Prime Stockton here.

Stockton
22-8-7 4 steals 3 turnovers
Payton
19-4-7 2 steals 5 turnovers




Defensive Rating (Points Allowed per 100 possessions) is the greatest indicator of a team's defense. Obviously Seattle was up-tempo so they would allow more points overall, and playoffs is what 4 opponents lol?
Both not good indicators.
Either way, They weren't as good as the bulls, and Payton had two good perimeter defenders in Hawkins and McMillan, and Beyond that, they weren't near as good on defense in the playoffs, where it really matters.

[GP_20]

How about based on statistics, or watching a shitload of his games over the years. He'd gone from 17-14 and 3 steals to 15-11 with 2 steals. Is that not an obvious decline? On top of that he wasn't a very good man to man defender at that point, and wasn't near as good of a team defender which was what he was great at on defense. Mostly because he didn't have near the stamina, he couldn't run on all cylinders for 40 minutes.
And was Kareem in his prime at 33? Just because you're known for longevity doesn't mean you're in your prime into your mid 30's.

The league was more up-tempo back then, teams scored more, and statistics overall were inflated. So it's no surprise that Stockton averaged more than.

But I think you are mixing prime and peak. I agree he wasn't in his PEAK in 96. But he was still good enough to be called in his prime. Primes for players last about 10-15 years depending on the player, peaks are more 2-4 years.

96 still was Stockton's prime, but not peak. And once again this is obvious. Even Payton was in his prime (not peak) at age 33.

Though some would argue that 95-97 was his peak, including a poster named G.O.A.T. and others as well.






96 was definitely Payton's best year. The only change he would go through the next 5 years is playing more minutes, taking worse shots, and slowly becoming a worse defender.

It was arguably his defensive peak, but Payton actually did get better over the years. He became a better playmaker and overall scorer as his shot got better.



No, Payton was better in 96, but it's a stupid comparison because Stockton wasn't in his prime.

Once again, NEITHER were in their peaks. But both were in their primes. Primes last 10-15 years. Peaks last 2-4. I'd say Payton's peak was like 98-02, while Stockton's was probably late 80s to early 90s. But they were both in their primes.




Exaggeration of the century. First off, Stockton outplayed Payton in the 7th game by a pretty large margin, and Payton was playing 46 minutes a game in that series, and still barely met his season average. That's what you call dominating?

:roll:
Payton played 42mpg. And his efficiency and overall scoring was higher as he abused Stockton. But the main story is his defense. Stockton, 9.8ppg on under 40% shooting, with his assists very low as well. Completely shut down and dominated.




Stockton
22-8-7 4 steals 3 turnovers ]
Payton
19-4-7 2 steals 5 turnovers


This is where I know you are trolling. You called THAT domination, when their stats were nearly identical But you are asking me is THIS domination?


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl
:facepalm

^^^^

I've never seen a HOF PG in his prime get outplayed Head to Head in the playoffs as much as Stockton did here. Please someone prove me wrong.







Either way, They weren't as good as the bulls, and Payton had two good perimeter defenders in Hawkins and McMillan, and Beyond that, they weren't near as good on defense in the playoffs, where it really matters.

Do you even have a brain? Playoffs you face FOUR TEAMS. And the Sonics faced some of the best offenses in the league (Houston/Utah/Chicago). Don't you that skews the results




Please practice LOGIC





And you've ignored that since they both were All-Star PGs, and All-NBA 2nd team members, we should've seen a close matchup. But it ended up being like Brevin Knight vs. Tony Parker instead (this one better ?)


John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4


Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3


Yeah about what you would except seeing Brevin Knight vs. Tony Parker. Not seeing 2 HOF PGs in their primes.


Stockton being dominated so bad against Payton cost hist team the biggest series of his life.



And just like Hakeem > Robinson because of the 95 Series, Payton > Stockton because of the 96 series.

[GP_20]

As far as the thread goes, 1st of all great thread D.J. :applause:



But as we can see in this thread, there are only a few that don't think he is underrated. The vast majority agree he is underrated. The few that don't, and I'm being completely frank here, are a little messed up in the head. I don't know if you have been reading this thread and these guy's arguments post for post, but if you have, you would know what I'm talking about. I'm mainly referring to magnax and teannet. If they want to act and believe in stupid, they can continue to doing so. But anyone with any rationality just has to do this :facepalm

[magnax1]

Do you even have a brain? Playoffs you face FOUR TEAMS. And the Sonics faced some of the best offenses in the league (Houston/Utah/Chicago). Don't you that skews the results




Please practice LOGIC
You claim to practice logic, but center your whole argument around one series, but on the other side, completely ignore the dropoff of the Sonics during the playoffs. How about you practice logic and compare Stockton vs Payton during their careers? Or how about looking at their stats so that it encompasses something more then one matchup?
Really, you're one of the most pointless people to argue with on here. Every time I point out something, all you do is go back and say "But Payton played better then Stockton in 96" Well no duh, he was in his best year (or at least one of since you contest that) and Stockton was 5+ years removed from his best year. Then you say stuff like "prime is 15 years long" when that would basically count all but 2 or 3 years of Payton's career, and 5 of Stockton's.
On top of that you continue to say that Payton better then Kobe, which is blatantly idiotic. I should just realize you're a big Payton Homer and leave you alone, but for some reason I don't.

[GP_20]

You claim to practice logic, but center your whole argument around one series, but on the other side, completely ignore the dropoff of the Sonics during the playoffs. How about you practice logic and compare Stockton vs Payton during their careers? Or how about looking at their stats so that it encompasses something more then one matchup?
Really, you're one of the most pointless people to argue with on here. Every time I point out something, all you do is go back and say "But Payton played better then Stockton in 96" Well no duh, he was in his best year (or at least one of since you contest that) and Stockton was 5+ years removed from his best year. Then you say stuff like "prime is 15 years long" when that would basically count all but 2 or 3 years of Payton's career, and 5 of Stockton's.
On top of that you continue to say that Payton better then Kobe, which is blatantly idiotic. I should just realize you're a big Payton Homer and leave you alone, but for some reason I don't.
Coming from the guy who I've seen rank Stockton higher than Magic or on par with Magic? :roll:
Wow. I don't even take Payton that far.

I'm comparing primes here. Not career. So why should I look at careers?

I said 10-15 years. Payton's prime was from 94-03. Stockton's was a little longer, he has the longevity edge over Payton. Obviously in some years of Payton's prime were better than others, same with Stockton's. But 96 was a year where both were All-NBA 2nd thus at a similar level.

But like I said, it was the PG equivalence of Hakeem on Robinson. People bring up that series in comparing the 2 Cs all the time. Same reason I bring up this series for Payton vs. Stockton. Both at same level (All-NBA 2nd), yet the results it felt like watching a bench PG playing an All-Star (Think Knight vs. Parker)

[GP_20]

To me Payton had a Top 3 Prime for a PG All-Time. He just impacted a basketball game in so many ways, scoring, passing, and defending exceptionally well.


Stockton, though I have him high All-Time, is overrated overall. Mainly his prime. There are probably at least 7-8 PGs I'd take over a prime Stockton. He just was never a dominant PG that could take over games like all the other greats.

[Fatal9]

You should really watch that series Glove, and see how it was more of Seattle's team defense (traps, getting ball out of his hand) than GP individually shutting Stockton down. But watching games and seeing what really happened isn't really important I guess. LOL @ anyone who believes GP shut down MJ. This has been discussed so many times, and anyone who has actually seen the series can see that MJ was getting to his spots at will but not converting shots that otherwise were automatic for him (unless you want to believe GP broke MJ down mentally into missing these shots...which we know is next to impossible). Great example of people misusing stats instead of watching games.

[GP_20]

You should really watch that series Glove, and see how it was more of Seattle's team defense (traps, getting ball out of his hand) than GP individually shutting Stockton down. But watching games and seeing what really happened isn't really important I guess. LOL @ anyone who believes GP shut down MJ. This has been discussed so many times, and anyone who has actually seen the series can see that MJ was getting to his spots at will but not converting shots that otherwise were automatic for him (unless you want to believe GP broke MJ down mentally into missing these shots...which we know is next to impossible). Great example of people misusing stats instead of watching games.

Says the guy who posts Nash's stats for a playoff series yet chooses not to watch him being a total defensive liability at the same time.


I've watched the series MANY times. There definitely is that mental pressure Payton puts on all the players he guards with his trash talk. He gets into your head, making you miss so called "easy" shots, but credit goes to Payton for that as well.

But I've watched the series many times. Besides for the mental edge, Payton's ball denying defense on Jordan was excellent too. So by the time Jordan got the ball, he was already a little tired, and he has to shoot his jump shots with less energy than usual, causing misses. Besides for excellent ball denying defense, he also contained Jordan well.



Recently I watched Game 3, the 1st game Karl decided to put Payton on Jordan mid-way. Before he put Payton on Jordan, Jordan was lighting it up. As soon as he put Gary on Michael, Jordan and the entire Bulls offense started collapsing. Even knowing the fact you are being guarded by the 1996 DPOY gets into a player's head, even the GOAT's head.

[Norcaliblunt]

I got this from another forum.

Nash sure has been a defensive liability lately. Lol

Going in reverse order of last Phoenix opponents:

Warriors - Curry - (7-17)
Thunder - Westbrook (7-17)
Bucks - Jennings (2-10)
Hornets - Paul (7-14)
Celtics - Rondo (1-6)
Bobcats - Augustin (5-11)
Sixers - Holliiday (4-9)
Pistons - Stuckey (3-15)
Wizards - Wall (4-13)
Cavaliers - Gibson (6-13)
Knicks - Felton (3-13)
Trailblazers - Miller (7-15)
Nets - Harris (5-12)
Nuggets - Billups (1-5)
Cavaliers - Williams (2-11)
Knicks - Felton (8-20)
Lakers - Fisher (2-7)
Kings - Evans (2-12)
Pistons - Gordon (8-19)

Nash is no defensive stopper but during this stretch where not one PG shot over 50% against Nash, he himself shot about 54% combined. That's domination.

[Bigsmoke]

GP 20 is dropping some knowledge :cheers:

[NauruDude]

Isn't it just because the franchise was moved to OKC from Seattle so Paytons legacy died.

[Nash-tastic]

Isn't it just because the franchise was moved to OKC from Seattle so Paytons legacy died.
:wtf:

[westsideozzie]

Steve Nash will always score and distribute, but he is a horrible defender, and Gary Payton would abuse him....

[GP_20]

I got this from another forum.

Nash sure has been a defensive liability lately. Lol

Going in reverse order of last Phoenix opponents:

Warriors - Curry - (7-17)
Thunder - Westbrook (7-17)
Bucks - Jennings (2-10)
Hornets - Paul (7-14)
Celtics - Rondo (1-6)
Bobcats - Augustin (5-11)
Sixers - Holliiday (4-9)
Pistons - Stuckey (3-15)
Wizards - Wall (4-13)
Cavaliers - Gibson (6-13)
Knicks - Felton (3-13)
Trailblazers - Miller (7-15)
Nets - Harris (5-12)
Nuggets - Billups (1-5)
Cavaliers - Williams (2-11)
Knicks - Felton (8-20)
Lakers - Fisher (2-7)
Kings - Evans (2-12)
Pistons - Gordon (8-19)

Nash is no defensive stopper but during this stretch where not one PG shot over 50% against Nash, he himself shot about 54% combined. That's domination.

I'm not sure if you're serious. Are you making an argument that the 37 year old Nash is in any way a good defender? 1st of all, many times when the Suns are facing a star PG, Nash is switched from guarding the PG to guarding the 2 who isn't that known for his offense. 2nd, if he has to guard someone good, the Suns will give him extra help throughout the whole game. I haven't watched many Sun's game recently, but I'm assuming he hasn't turned into a All-Defensive defender in the past month at age 37.
But back in the past, I've seen coaches and players just attack Nash continuously. Call isos on whoever Nash is guarding, and just go right at him. And of course score many points and so on. The Sun's therefore over the years have had to counter and try hard to hide the liability Nash is on defense in multiple ways. Looks like they have gotten good at it lately.

[GP_20]

GP 20 is dropping some knowledge :cheers:

Just have to set the record straight here. Most agree with me, the ones that don't, try reading their posts and not hitting your head against the wall, because it's clear that they have a very weak case and just "believe" in whatever they believe.

[magnax1]

Coming from the guy who I've seen rank Stockton higher than Magic or on par with Magic? :roll:
Wow. I don't even take Payton that far.

I'm comparing primes here. Not career. So why should I look at careers?

I said 10-15 years. Payton's prime was from 94-03. Stockton's was a little longer, he has the longevity edge over Payton. Obviously in some years of Payton's prime were better than others, same with Stockton's. But 96 was a year where both were All-NBA 2nd thus at a similar level.

But like I said, it was the PG equivalence of Hakeem on Robinson. People bring up that series in comparing the 2 Cs all the time. Same reason I bring up this series for Payton vs. Stockton. Both at same level (All-NBA 2nd), yet the results it felt like watching a bench PG playing an All-Star (Think Knight vs. Parker)
Stockton's prime was from 88-92 or so, and Payton's was from 95-01 or so. And I haven't said Stockton was equal to Magic in like a year and a half. At that point I hadn't watched many games from Magic. You however, will still claim that Payton was as good as Kobe is.
No one's prime is 10-15 years. Peak is their best individual season (as in single highest point, like the dictionary definition) and Prime is the seasons that are reasonably close to the peak in terms of level of play. That's what basically everyone sees it at, and you're justing twisting it so you can make it out that prime Payton and prime Stockton played each other and Stockton was outplayed, when in reality Stockton was 7 years removed from his best season, and Payton was playing the most well rounded season of his career.
And like I said before, you continue to talk about one series like it defines two players entire careers. Nobody but an idiot like you thinks Hakeem was better then Robinson because of that one series. Hakeem was better then Robinson because Robinson consistently didn't play as good in the playoffs, and Hakeem consistently played better.
I bet I can predict that you're answer to this is more about one series in 1996 instead of their level of play though.

[GP_20]

Stockton's prime was from 88-92 or so, and Payton's was from 95-01 or so. And I haven't said Stockton was equal to Magic in like a year and a half. At that point I hadn't watched many games from Magic. You however, will still claim that Payton was as good as Kobe is.


So you admit you had Stockton equal to Magic? :roll:
Big insult to Magic Johnson 1st of all. I would never even dream of putting Payton next to Magic. And you call me the homer. Magic > Kobe too, so that's worse than putting Stockton or GP next to Kobe.

Kid you still got more learning to do. Watch some more Payton games like you wathced more Magic and then you figured it out. :oldlol:



No one's prime is 10-15 years. Peak is their best individual season (as in single highest point, like the dictionary definition) and Prime is the seasons that are reasonably close to the peak in terms of level of play. That's what basically everyone sees it at, and you're justing twisting it so you can make it out that prime Payton and prime Stockton played each other and Stockton was outplayed, when in reality Stockton was 7 years removed from his best season, and Payton was playing the most well rounded season of his career.


So let me get this straight, from 94 and 95, Stockton was arguably considered the best PG in the NBA. For the 1st time in his career might I add. Yet you say he wasn't even in his prime? :facepalm So is there any difference between a 94 Stockton and say a 2002 Stockton? Both were out of prime right? Do you have a different label for a 94-97 Stockton vs. a 00-02 Stockton? For me 1 is prime, and 1 is out of prime.

I call all the years a player playing at a "All-Star" level their "prime" years. Otherwise, the years out of their prime are the ones where they are actually out of their primes, Payton would be 2004-2007, that is an out of prime Payton (when he went to the Lakers and so on). In Seattle, it was still a prime Payton, maybe not a peak Payton though.

And peak is just 1 year? A lot of players you can't pick just ONE year for their peak. You have to give a range. What are you going to say about Jordan? His peak was ____ year. Does that mean 88, 87, 89, 90, and 91 he wasn't as good as he was in that one year? How about Nash, what's his peak. And does that mean the other years around that he wasn't as good?

See there are many flaws with your definition. Peak is not 1 year because it's impossible to say "yes this was this player's best year period". You have to give a little years range where they were at their best. Stockton's is 88-92, Payton's 98-02, and their primes overlapped.

This is the most consistent and logical way to define peaks and primes and out of primes. Every player can be broken down in those 3 ranges for their careers.

But the point is, imo both Payton and Stockton weren't at their "very best" (Peaks), but during 96 were at the same level (All-NBA 2nd), yet we saw what looked like Brevin Knight vs. Tony Parker. All-Star vs. Scrub. Some of the most ONE SIDED games of All-Time between 2 HOF PGs both playing at a good level. I'm still waiting to see a more 1 sided game than the one I posted above for 2 HOF PGs in their "All-Star" (or Prime) days.





And like I said before, you continue to talk about one series like it defines two players entire careers. Nobody but an idiot like you thinks Hakeem was better then Robinson because of that one series. Hakeem was better then Robinson because Robinson consistently didn't play as good in the playoffs, and Hakeem consistently played better.

But what is the 1 series everyone always brings up in their argument. I'm not saying that series alone makes Payton better. But its always a relevant argument to this discussion just like Hakeem's series is always a relevant argument to the discussion.

[magnax1]

So you admit you had Stockton equal to Magic? :roll:
Big insult to Magic Johnson 1st of all. I would never even dream of putting Payton next to Magic. And you call me the homer. Magic > Kobe too, so that's worse than putting Stockton or GP next to Kobe.

Kid you still got more learning to do. Watch some more Payton games like you wathced more Magic and then you figured it out. :oldlol:
No, it's really not any worse then putting GP next to Kobe. GP is no where near a top 30 all time player.
And it matters that at one point I said that.... why? Do I still say it? No. Do you still say Kobe isn't as good as Payton? Yes.
:cheers:




So let me get this straight, from 94 and 95, Stockton was arguably considered the best PG in the NBA. For the 1st time in his career might I add. Yet you say he wasn't even in his prime? :facepalm So is there any difference between a 94 Stockton and say a 2002 Stockton? Both were out of prime right? Do you have a different label for a 94-97 Stockton vs. a 00-02 Stockton? For me 1 is prime, and 1 is out of prime.
You make very little sense. Because he was the best point guard in the league, he had to be in his prime? And what player in 92 and 93 was a better point guard then him? I'll even say Payton was probably equal to him in 95, and better in 96, but He's not that terribly close to Stockton in 90 or 91.
And bolded is just retarded rambling that doesn't make any sense, not that I'd expect much better.


I call all the years a player playing at a "All-Star" level their "prime" years. Otherwise, the years out of their prime are the ones where they are actually out of their primes, Payton would be 2004-2007, that is an out of prime Payton (when he went to the Lakers and so on). In Seattle, it was still a prime Payton, maybe not a peak Payton though.
Well you're in the minority. Just because they're an all star doesn't mean they were prime. I guess by your definition Kareem in 87-89 was still in his prime
:lol
Don't worry, I understand you're just manipulating reality to try to make Payton sound better then he is, you don't really need to explain any more.

A
nd peak is just 1 year? A lot of players you can't pick just ONE year for their peak. You have to give a range. What are you going to say about Jordan? His peak was ____ year. Does that mean 88, 87, 89, 90, and 91 he wasn't as good as he was in that one year? How about Nash, what's his peak. And does that mean the other years around that he wasn't as good?

See there are many flaws with your definition. Peak is not 1 year because it's impossible to say "yes this was this player's best year period". You have to give a little years range where they were at their best. Stockton's is 88-92, Payton's 98-02, and their primes overlapped.
No, there aren't any flaws. Just because there are a couple years that are arguable, doesn't mean that their is a flaw but your definition of a 15 year prime is still idiotic.




But what is the 1 series everyone always brings up in their argument. I'm not saying that series alone makes Payton better. But its always a relevant argument to this discussion just like Hakeem's series is always a relevant argument to the discussion
It's not really relevent because it's one series. Oh, I guess that Tony Parker is better then Steve Nash because he outplayed him in 2008, right? How about you look at their careers, where it's blatantly obvious Stockton is better. Or their peaks? Or their career head to heads?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01
Not very close, now is it?

[Norcaliblunt]

I'm not sure if you're serious. Are you making an argument that the 37 year old Nash is in any way a good defender? 1st of all, many times when the Suns are facing a star PG, Nash is switched from guarding the PG to guarding the 2 who isn't that known for his offense. 2nd, if he has to guard someone good, the Suns will give him extra help throughout the whole game. I haven't watched many Sun's game recently, but I'm assuming he hasn't turned into a All-Defensive defender in the past month at age 37.
But back in the past, I've seen coaches and players just attack Nash continuously. Call isos on whoever Nash is guarding, and just go right at him. And of course score many points and so on. The Sun's therefore over the years have had to counter and try hard to hide the liability Nash is on defense in multiple ways. Looks like they have gotten good at it lately.


Then use some stats or footage to prove your point.

So now it's switching and in the past he got torched? Than let's look at the head to head match ups. Whether PHX switched or not isn't the point. It's that he or PHX ain't getting torched as bad as you say. I got this from another forum as well.

"Okay, some better numbers:

Head to head against Paul, Williams, Rondo, Kidd, Billups and Parker, this is how Nash compares on average:

0.83 more wins than opponent

.040 higher shooting percentage

.052 higher 3pt percentage

.115 higher free throw percentage

0.97 fewer points per game

0.57 fewer rebounds per game

2.4 more assists per game

0.9 fewer steals per game

To me, this shows that where he's better, he's significantly better. And where he's worse, he's not that much worse (save for steals, where 0.9 is pretty significant).

He's not shutting those guys down, but great defenders like Paul, Rondo and Kidd aren't breaking Nash's stride, either. Head to head, the disparity on defense simply isn't showing up."

[gxL]

payton was the only guard besides jordan who won defensive player of the year. he also outplayed jordan in the finals several times.

WAR PAYTON!!

[GP_20]

No, it's really not any worse then putting GP next to Kobe. GP is no where near a top 30 all time player.
And it matters that at one point I said that.... why? Do I still say it? No. Do you still say Kobe isn't as good as Payton? Yes.
:cheers:



Payton is definately Top 30 All-Time. And the fact you ever said that really shows you've had some mental problems. The problem is they still haven't cleared up.



You make very little sense. Because he was the best point guard in the league, he had to be in his prime? And what player in 92 and 93 was a better point guard then him? I'll even say Payton was probably equal to him in 95, and better in 96, but He's not that terribly close to Stockton in 90 or 91.
And bolded is just retarded rambling that doesn't make any sense, not that I'd expect much better.


How doesn't it make sense? You stupid? English not your 1st language? Let me dumb it down.

You call 94 Stockton "out of prime". And he was the best PG in 94. You call 02 Stockton "out of prime". Do you think a 94 Stockton and 02 Stockton played at the same level? You give them the same label "out of prime"l after all. Please tell me there was a difference to you in making a comparison of the 94-97 Stockton and using that as an example between using the 00-02 Stockton and using that as an example.

For my definition, there is. 88-92 Stockton => Peak Stockton. 88-98 Stockton => Prime Stockton. 99-03 Stockton => Out of Prime Stockton.

See how everything is more complete. Do you not have any different lablel for the 93 Stockton and the 03 Stockton? Or any comparisons made to them are both invalid because "he was out of prime" in your case. :oldlol:




Well you're in the minority. Just because they're an all star doesn't mean they were prime. I guess by your definition Kareem in 87-89 was still in his prime
:lol
Don't worry, I understand you're just manipulating reality to try to make Payton sound better then he is, you don't really need to explain any more.


Of course there are exceptions. But I meant played at an "All-Star" caliber level. Kareem was just getting in the All-Star game even though he didn't deserve it. Maybe All-NBA should solidify "Prime".



No, there aren't any flaws. Just because there are a couple years that are arguable, doesn't mean that their is a flaw but your definition of a 15 year prime is still idiotic.

What's so idiotic? Prime is basically when that player was considered "good". Not at their very best. That is Peak. It's just hilariously stupid that "Peak" is ONE YEAR LONG for you, when they were just as good the year after or year before. It's not that "there are a couple of years that are arguable", it's that there is no significant drop, if any drop, for most players between their best and 2nd best year. And based on your stupid definition, one of those years is PEAK, the other PRIME. :roll:

So tell me, what was Stockton's PEAK year? I guess the year you don't name was his prime, and worse than his peak year? In other words, he was ACTUALLY a worse player? :roll: Nash? What was his Peak year and prime years? Was he actually a worse player in any year between 05-07 than he was at 1 of those years?

The reasons go on on how stupid your definition is. But I can't expect much out of you.




It's not really relevent because it's one series. Oh, I guess that Tony Parker is better then Steve Nash because he outplayed him in 2008, right? How about you look at their careers, where it's blatantly obvious Stockton is better. Or their peaks? Or their career head to heads?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01
Not very close, now is it?


He didn't just outplay Stockton. He DOMINATED him. Like I said, it's the PG version of Hakeem and Robinson. Payton's outplayed a lot of PGs in series before, but this was complete domination. Like I said, I don't think I've ever seen 2 HOF PGs go at it when they were both considered very good ("All-NBA 2nd") yet one gets just completely dominated as much as Stockton did against Payton.

[L.Kizzle]

payton was the only guard besides jordan who won defensive player of the year. he also outplayed jordan in the finals several times.

WAR PAYTON!!
Sidney Moncrief says hi, actually he says hi twice.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Sidney Moncrief says hi, actually he says hi twice.

Michael Cooper as well. Plenty of of others if you look down the list.

[magnax1]

Payton is definately Top 30 All-Time. And the fact you ever said that really shows you've had some mental problems. The problem is they still haven't cleared up.
I think the fact that you think Payton and Kobe are equals, and he's top 30 all time is enough reason for me to quit arguing with you over the same one series, especially since you just continue to say the same thing, despite me agreeing that Stockton was outplayed. The only thing you've even said is that it was Stockton's prime because any year a player make the all star team, they're still in their prime.
:lol




How doesn't it make sense? You stupid? English not your 1st language? Let me dumb it down.
It doesn't make sense, in that it's stupid and unrelated to our argument. Because Stockton was better in 94 then 03 doesn't mean he's still in his prime in 94. You're pretty much the only person who thinks primes last 15 years.

[GP_20]

I think the fact that you think Payton and Kobe are equals, and he's top 30 all time is enough reason for me to quit arguing with you over the same one series, especially since you just continue to say the same thing, despite me agreeing that Stockton was outplayed. The only thing you've even said is that it was Stockton's prime because any year a player make the all star team, they're still in their prime.
:lol



1st of all I don't think they are equal All-Time or Career-Wise. Kobe is Top 10, Payton is Top 30. And please Stockton wasn't just outplayed, he was dominated. The fact you actually had Stockton on par with Magic Johnson a year ago shows you have some mental issues.

And I said if they play at an All-Star level they are still in their prime.





It doesn't make sense, in that it's stupid and unrelated to our argument. Because Stockton was better in 94 then 03 doesn't mean he's still in his prime in 94. You're pretty much the only person who thinks primes last 15 years.

I was just wondering what your label for the 94 season for Stockton was compared to the 03 season. I label 1 as a "Prime Stockton" and the other as a "Out of Prime" Stockton. Because there is a clear differnece between a 94 Stockton and a 03 Stockton.

At least in my book. But for you I guess they are both out of prime and about the same. Thus comparing the 94-97 Stockton is as invalid as comparing the 00-03 Stockton.


And I still can't understand how a Peak is only 1 year. this definition fails fast because it implies that one year you were better than all of your other years. However, for MANY players there is not 1 big year they had. In fact, what was Stockton's peak? What year was he clearly better than all of his other years? Can you really say that that was his "year". And it's not a RANGE of years (88-92) he played at about the same level, at the top of his game?

So many flaws in your definitions, from Peak to Prime.





But all that is irrelevant anyways. Bottomline is, Stockton was still at least "near his best" (not going to use "Prime") in 96, and so was Payton. Neither were at their best (Not using "Peak"), Stockton that was 88-92, Payton 98-02. Yet Payton absolutely DOMINATED Stockton in the series.


I think it would make a good discussion to if this was the most 1 Sided playoff battle between 2 HOF PGs "Near their best" (Not going to say Prime) or "Playing at a high level" (Not highest level)?


Ever?

Could it be?


And maybe this is the most 1 sided game?


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


Honestly, that is total abuse on BOTH ENDS. :roll:

[magnax1]

Prime Shaq 98-03 peak 00
Prime Jordan 88-93 peak 89/90
Prime Nash 05-08 peak 07
Prime TMac 00-05 peak 03
That's how basically everyone does it. You're the exception, not me. Just because player's get worse after they leave their prime, does not mean that it doesn't make any sense. Except maybe to you, but once again you're the exception.

[GP_20]

Prime Shaq 98-03 peak 00
Prime Jordan 88-93 peak 89/90
Prime Nash 05-08 peak 07
Prime TMac 00-05 peak 03
That's how basically everyone does it. You're the exception, not me. Just because player's get worse after they leave their prime, does not mean that it doesn't make any sense. Except maybe to you, but once again you're the exception.

So clearly "you think" that Nash was "for sure" better in 07 than both of his 2 MVP years.

Read that statement carefully. There is no "arguable" written. It's what "you think" and you have already stated your choices. So you clearly think Nash was a better player in 07 than he has ever been.

And you named some easy player's peaks. How about Stockton which is who I asked about. Russell? Bird? I'd love to hear the "Peak" year for those players, the year which they FOR SURE were better than any other year "according to you".

And funny you couldn't name a year for Jordan. Hmmm...




Obviously, your definition has some major flaws. While my definition, it's smooth and ACCURATE.





I'm still waiting on the label you give 94-97 Stockton, and seeing if it's different from the 00-03 Stockton. Or were they both just "out of prime" lol? Is comparing 94 Stockton to a player just as invalid as comparing a 03 Stockton to a player? :oldlol:

[magnax1]

This is a really stupid thing to argue, and I'm arguing it with a guy who obviously can't understand what a consensus is. So really, GP_20, just stop.

[GP_20]

This is a really stupid thing to argue, and I'm arguing it with a guy who obviously can't understand what a consensus is. So really, GP_20, just stop.

I'm not really sure where you got this "consensus" anyways. :rolleyes:

But yeah, there are multiple flaws with your definition that just aren't logical in the basketball world.




But you're right, all this is besides the point. Payton dominated Stockton at a time both were playing at a level "Near their best" and were still considered "Great" PGs.


And it was the biggest series of both of their lives

[D.J.]

Bump

[jbryan1984]

Not to me hasn't. I just think its this generation. They are not as familiar with what he did in Seattle and instead just remember seeing him coming off the bench for Miami for a ring.

[bizil]

I feel Magic is the best point guard of all time. But GP (along with Clyde Frazier) is the premier point guard of all time in terms of scoring, defense, and passing as a package. That's a hell of a statement! And on top of it, GP could defend PG, SG, and many SFs. GP is even the second leading PG scorer of all time with like 21,000 points, just trailing the Big O. U don't look for PG's to be great rebounders like Magic, Kidd, and Big O were. That's a bonus. But for all other facets as a package, GP is as good as it gets at PG.