Magic Johnson vs. Kobe Bryant

[Lebron23]

Who's the better Laker?


http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/kobe24.jpg


http://www.loudsportsshorts.com/basketball/players/magic_johnson.jpg


Has Kobe surpassed Magic at this point?

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe wins another championship this season, and he surpasses Magic Johnson. It is that simple. As an individual talent, i.e. overall player, Kobe Bryant has been better for a while now. As far as greatness and all time rankings are concerned, Kobe needs another ring to get himself pass Magic.

Last season, if Kobe had won another championship and repeated, he would have been considered the player of the decade. He won the championship, and now he is considered the player of the 2000s decade.

[Force]

Magic is the greatest Laker and Kobe won't catch him.

Magic was a leader from day ONE. According to Phil, Kobe didn't have good leadership qualities until he was in his 12th season. Actually this whole thing isn't even debatable, Magic's leadership is the best in the history of basketball imo. It's something Kobe has always struggled with.

Magic made ALL of his teammates better and the fact that 6'9" could bring the ball up, so versatile. It's not even a debate imo. Magic >>> Kobe. It's not even a debate.

There will never ever be another player like Magic Johnson. If you weren't around to watch him, you just missed out. Youtube highlights just don't do him justice, he was a floor general, a master of basketball with an INSANE level of ball IQ. He ALWAYS knew what to do and what the right play was. He was always talking basically controlling all the players, he was a coach on the floor.

You've got to remember what the old #8 used to play like. He didn't follow the system well, he was a selfish player and wasn't a good teammate. It's a shame it took him so long to understand things better because his skills are in the top 10-15 in NBA history.

[Force]

Kobe wins another championship this season, and he surpasses Magic Johnson. It is that simple. As an individual talent, i.e. overall player, Kobe Bryant has been better for a while now. As far as greatness and all time rankings are concerned, Kobe needs another ring to get himself pass Magic.

Last season, if Kobe had won another championship and repeated, he would have been considered the player of the decade. He won the championship, and now he is considered the player of the 2000s decade.

Let me guess, you're 25 year olds tops probably even younger. It's not about who ends up with more rings...BTW, Magic 's career ended early, he retired with HIV just months after making it to the NBA finals.

[SFMF]

The one who went to the finals 9 times in his career.

[O BaByShaQ]

Gonna have to wait for kobe's career to end before you start comparing them because at this point its tight.

[bl2k8]

I think Magic will always be seen as the GLOAT. A lot of old Laker fans don't like Kobe. This is amongst Laker fans

[StacksOnDeck]

Let me guess, you're 25 year olds tops probably even younger. It's not about who ends up with more rings...BTW, Magic 's career ended early, he retired with HIV just months after making it to the NBA finals.

He came back you moron.

[DeronMillsap]

The Magic Man. He pretty much made the Los Angeles Lakers a brand name.

[Force]

He came back you moron.

The point is Magic was still playing at a very high level when his career was cut short. Are you going to judge Jordan's career based on his play with the Wizards?

Coming back with HIV after years away from the game equals being way past your prime.

I'm so happy I got to see the Showtime Lakers live in person at the Fabulous Forum.

moron

[chains5000]

Magic's the biggest icon IMO.

[Stuckey]

magic

[StacksOnDeck]

The point is Magic was still playing at a very high level when his career was cut short. Are you going to judge Jordan's career based on his play with the Wizards?

Coming back with HIV after years away from the game equals being way past your prime.

I'm so happy I got to see the Showtime Lakers live in person at the Fabulous Forum.

moron

Point is you're stupid. Kobe's career is on the brink of surpassing Magic's so get over it. Don't make up excuses.

Only on ISH is Magic a bigger icon than Kobe. Kobe's known INTERNATIONALLY. Kobe is the bigger icon and it's not even close.

[MrJohnWall]

The point is Magic was still playing at a very high level when his career was cut short. Are you going to judge Jordan's career based on his play with the Wizards?

Coming back with HIV after years away from the game equals being way past your prime.

I'm so happy I got to see the Showtime Lakers live in person at the Fabulous Forum.

moron
So its Kobe fault Magic couldnt control his d1ck?????

kobe longetivity, scoring, impact,stats>>>>>Magics

[scm5]

I don't like the argument at all.

1. Magic will always have an edge because he came first and played in what is considered the "golden era" of basketball in terms of excitement.

2. Kobe is always criticized for "riding Shaq's coattail" or having a stacked team. Magic had teams just as stacked and also played with Kareem who is a greater Center than Shaq. Most people think Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic. Dude was 28 when he first started and didn't significantly decline until he was 38. Magic and Bird are almost never criticized for their quality of teammates while Kobe is.

3. Kobe is currently playing in the game right now, his career isn't over, and he's got a lot of haters. After he retires and given time, I'm sure we can have a great conversation about who's career was greater.

[Lebron23]

So its Kobe fault Magic couldnt control his d1ck?????

kobe longetivity, scoring, impact,stats>>>>>Magics


Magic is a 3x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Finals MVP, 5x NBA Champion, and 4x NBA Assists Leader. Prime Magic was a better playoffs and finals performer than Kobe. The Lakers never missed the playoffs when Magic was their No.1 scoring option.

[Nevaeh]

Magic easily. came into the League with immediate impact, helped to take a struggling League to even greater heights while it was fighting to stay afloat. Was a part of the greatest Rivalry next to Wilt and Russell's, and stayed consistent as the Engine of the Laker's offense during his entire career.
Has his own statue along with the Greatest NBA Nickname of all time. Accolades speak for themselves.

Kobe came into the league acting like MJ, but without the skill set, so he was forced to come off the pine until he developed his game. Made it a personal quest to become the Greatest Jordan Impersonator of all time, all the while shooting his team out of games and not following his coach's instructions.

Helped to run out of town the player responsible for putting him on the map in Shaq, along with inspiring his Hall of Fame, award winning coach to write a book explaining how uncoachable he was. Developed the most zealot filled, cult like following of Fans beyond any rational reasoning when it comes to his place in history or as a Star Player, only recently learning how to be a leader for his team after 15 years in the league.

Whatever happens this year, I'm sticking with Magic as the better Laker.

[YAWN]

1. Magic will always have an edge because he came first and played in what is considered the "golden era" of basketball in terms of excitement.


No he won't. Kobe can wake up paralyzed tomorrow morning, yet 6 years from now he would be heralded as the greatest laker of all time based on his current body of work.

Out of respect to Magic, no one will dare say otherwise until Kobe has either retired or led the Lakers to another ring.

[moe94]

Bean is my favorite Laker of all time but he simply has no case over Magic.

[RazorBaLade]

magic was pretty clearly getting ready to announce kobe passing him until that 6-24 and magic stopped talking about it, hard to imagine that in magics eyes and fans eyes kobe wont surpass w/ 1 more ring and decent play. honestly tho at this point a ring doesnt move him up as much as just performing good does.. together.. obv greatest laker

so ATM, its still magic imo.. barely

[YouCallILose]

it's magic and it always will be magic barring kobe do something ridiculous like winning 3 more titles

[iamgine]

Magic Johnson is one of the GOAT. Lets compare him with people like Jordan and Bird. Not Kobe Bryant.

But as who is the better Lakers, we'd have to see their financial and global impact to the club as well as longevity.

[kidachi]

Kobe's getting there I think.. but for the way Magic was loved by the fans.. we don't know, only time will tell

[Psileas]

-Magic has more MVP's, and that's not going to change. And that's with '87-'90 Jordan and '87-'88 Bird being present, both among the best primes ever. He also finished second twice, once to peak Bird and once to peak Jordan.
-He has more Finals' MVP's.
-He was a better playoff and finals' performer.
-He didn't have the scoring and long range shooting ability of Kobe, but he had a higher basketball IQ and made use of the whole team - and we are reminded of this every time Kobe tries to take every damn clutch shot and when he fails, people say "hey, his teammates did nothing to help him...".
-Magic was not always a saint towards his teammates, but no incident in his team ever came close to Kobe's frictions with Shaq. Magic's influence to Westhead's and Nixon's removal didn't bring down the team's success. Shaq's move to Miami brought 3 years of mediocrity to Kobe's team.
-He did all this up to the age of 31. Kobe is already about a year older than Magic was at the end of the '91 season.

[silenc]

The Magic Man. He pretty much made the Los Angeles Lakers a brand name.
this

[MAC system]

-Magic has more MVP's, and that's not going to change. And that's with '87-'90 Jordan and '87-'88 Bird being present, both among the best primes ever. He also finished second twice, once to peak Bird and once to peak Jordan.
-He has more Finals' MVP's.
-He was a better playoff and finals' performer.
-He didn't have the scoring and long range shooting ability of Kobe, but he had a higher basketball IQ and made use of the whole team - and we are reminded of this every time Kobe tries to take every damn clutch shot and when he fails, people say "hey, his teammates did nothing to help him...".
-Magic was not always a saint towards his teammates, but no incident in his team ever came close to Kobe's frictions with Shaq. Magic's influence to Westhead's and Nixon's removal didn't bring down the team's success. Shaq's move to Miami brought 3 years of mediocrity to Kobe's team.
-He did all this up to the age of 31. Kobe is already about a year older than Magic was at the end of the '91 season.
Bringing some truth to this thread...thank you :bowdown:

[Robens24]

Magic.

[PurpleChuck]

Magic.

[Bigsmoke]

its not fair to compare a past player to a current one because they will always win the comparison :no:

[Calabis]

I don't like the argument at all.

1. Magic will always have an edge because he came first and played in what is considered the "golden era" of basketball in terms of excitement.

2. Kobe is always criticized for "riding Shaq's coattail" or having a stacked team. Magic had teams just as stacked and also played with Kareem who is a greater Center than Shaq. Most people think Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic. Dude was 28 when he first started and didn't significantly decline until he was 38. Magic and Bird are almost never criticized for their quality of teammates while Kobe is.

3. Kobe is currently playing in the game right now, his career isn't over, and he's got a lot of haters. After he retires and given time, I'm sure we can have a great conversation about who's career was greater.

The reason people criticize Kobe, is because he wasn't the leader on those Shaq led team, where as the day Magic and Bird stepped on the floor, they were the unquestioned leaders for their teams.

Last years finals hurt Kobe's legacy in my opinion, if he is top 5 like everyone claims, he sure hasn't proven it in the finals. Magic is the best Laker ever imo, when Kobe is done with his career its possible he can surpass him.

[Calabis]

Magic easily. came into the League with immediate impact, helped to take a struggling League to even greater heights while it was fighting to stay afloat. Was a part of the greatest Rivalry next to Wilt and Russell's, and stayed consistent as the Engine of the Laker's offense during his entire career.
Has his own statue along with the Greatest NBA Nickname of all time. Accolades speak for themselves.

Kobe came into the league acting like MJ, but without the skill set, so he was forced to come off the pine until he developed his game. Made it a personal quest to become the Greatest Jordan Impersonator of all time, all the while shooting his team out of games and not following his coach's instructions.

Helped to run out of town the player responsible for putting him on the map in Shaq, along with inspiring his Hall of Fame, award winning coach to write a book explaining how uncoachable he was. Developed the most zealot filled, cult like following of Fans beyond any rational reasoning when it comes to his place in history or as a Star Player, only recently learning how to be a leader for his team after 15 years in the league.

Whatever happens this year, I'm sticking with Magic as the better Laker.

Ouch!!! Truth :bowdown:

[KenneBell]

It'll be a close call by the time Kobe hangs them up. Very close.

[ashbelly]

It'll be a close call by the time Kobe hangs them up. Very close.

we'll he better make good use of his opportunity this season, there will be a new sheriff in town beggining next season.

[KenneBell]

we'll he better make good use of his opportunity this season, there will be a new sheriff in town beggining next season.
I wouldn't worry about him. He'll be just fine.

If Kobe stays healthy, he should end his career as the longest tenured Lakers player ever and will have spent about half his life playing for the team. I don't know of another player you can say that about. If he wins this year, he and Fisher will also have the most championships as a Laker as well.

People can argue about his impact, his role with the team, his attitude, whatever. Just like with the Kobe all-time ranking debate, it will be very hard not to be impressed with how his career has turned out. It's different now that he's playing and the nostalgia hasn't kicked in. It'll start hitting around 2015. People will be looking around for 'ol 8/24 but he'll be long gone. :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

-Magic has more MVP's, and that's not going to change. And that's with '87-'90 Jordan and '87-'88 Bird being present, both among the best primes ever. He also finished second twice, once to peak Bird and once to peak Jordan.
-He has more Finals' MVP's.
-He was a better playoff and finals' performer.
-He didn't have the scoring and long range shooting ability of Kobe, but he had a higher basketball IQ and made use of the whole team - and we are reminded of this every time Kobe tries to take every damn clutch shot and when he fails, people say "hey, his teammates did nothing to help him...".
-Magic was not always a saint towards his teammates, but no incident in his team ever came close to Kobe's frictions with Shaq. Magic's influence to Westhead's and Nixon's removal didn't bring down the team's success. Shaq's move to Miami brought 3 years of mediocrity to Kobe's team.
-He did all this up to the age of 31. Kobe is already about a year older than Magic was at the end of the '91 season.

Hard to add to that. Well stated.

Magic was one of the best decisiion makers the sport ever had: And he was clear headed running at warp speed. Had great intuition to to along with the eyes he had behind his head. He could get a team on the same page and control pace unlike any other player. Knew how to keep players involved in the game. Even his turnovers could be classified as good, as they frequently woke people up or when the ball bounced off their head they became more aware. Never had their been a player so intertwined to the other four players on the court. He was a leader and an inspirational figure head. One of the greatest team players the sport had seen.

[Disaprine]

Who's the better Laker?


http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/kobe24.jpg


http://www.loudsportsshorts.com/basketball/players/magic_johnson.jpg


Has Kobe surpassed Magic at this point?
Magic

[sh0wtime]

You people do realise that if Kobe is a "better Laker" then he also has a better career already and is a better player than Magic? Which means Kobe is already top 2-4 greatest player of all time?

No, just no.. this is not even debatable, especially not for me who even have Magic at #1 on my top 10 list like i said on the other thread:

1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
One of my biggest problems with lists like these is that everyone and their mother puts Jordan on top of the list and shouts down everyone who has a differing opinion. MJ might be the best player ever. But in no way, shape, or form is he the hands down, undisputable number one. Which is why I submit to you, my choice: Magic Johnson.

Consider the following…Magic won his five championships during the best decade the NBA has ever seen. In addition, Magic led his team to the Finals four additional times. That’s nine Finals appearances in a 12 year career! (not including his comeback year, of course.) That’s domination from wire to wire.

And Magic achieved this greatness against far better teams than MJ faced. If you think the NBA wasn’t watered down by the expansion of the ‘90s, you’re flat out crazy. If you think any of the teams the Bulls faced in the Finals were better than the Celtics of the ‘80s, you’re flat out crazy.

In addition, Magic Johnson is often credited with the following: Resurrecting Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s career, being the best passer in NBA history, most versatile player in NBA history, redefining the point guard position and point-forward role, being the only non-center who could utterly dominate a game without scoring, and lest we forget, saving the NBA (along with Larry Bird).

Without Magic there is no MJ. There may have been a basketball player named Michael Jordan, but he wouldn’t have been the household name and global icon we know MJ as today. For that to happen, Magic had to come first. Thus he is my number one.


2.Jordan
3.Wilt
4.Bill Russell
5.Kareem
6.Bird
7.Oscar
8.Shaq
9.Duncan
10.Kobe/Hakeem/Jerry West/Julius

You could even debate that Kobe was not a better Laker than Jerry West aswell.

[kaiiu]

Magic

[necya]

Magic is the greatest Laker and Kobe won't catch him.

Magic was a leader from day ONE. According to Phil, Kobe didn't have good leadership qualities until he was in his 12th season. Actually this whole thing isn't even debatable, Magic's leadership is the best in the history of basketball imo. It's something Kobe has always struggled with.

Magic made ALL of his teammates better and the fact that 6'9" could bring the ball up, so versatile. It's not even a debate imo. Magic >>> Kobe. It's not even a debate.

There will never ever be another player like Magic Johnson. If you weren't around to watch him, you just missed out. Youtube highlights just don't do him justice, he was a floor general, a master of basketball with an INSANE level of ball IQ. He ALWAYS knew what to do and what the right play was. He was always talking basically controlling all the players, he was a coach on the floor.

You've got to remember what the old #8 used to play like. He didn't follow the system well, he was a selfish player and wasn't a good teammate. It's a shame it took him so long to understand things better because his skills are in the top 10-15 in NBA history.

perfect post.
Magic always knew what he had to do all the time. it was unbelievable to see someone taking the right decision everytime! when you are watching the game on tv, sometimes you see things that will happen or the guy alone in the corner. Magic played with such maturity that he was the type of player to see those things before everyone.

what you said on kobe is very accurate. he is a top 10 all time in terms of talent. but overall, he is the most overrated, especially here.

and as a Laker, Magic, KAJ, West and O'neal are all above him.

and Psileas has underlined something very interesting about Magic he got 3 MVP when Bird and Magic was in GOAT mode. Bird should have 97 and 88 MVP if there was not this magical season by Magic and MJ. Same for MJ he would be 89 and 90 MVP if Magic wasn't there.
in fact, getting the MVP awad in 87, 88, 89, 90 was totally insane when you considered Bird Magic and MJ's level of basketball.

[SFMF]

Magic easily. came into the League with immediate impact, helped to take a struggling League to even greater heights while it was fighting to stay afloat. Was a part of the greatest Rivalry next to Wilt and Russell's, and stayed consistent as the Engine of the Laker's offense during his entire career.
Has his own statue along with the Greatest NBA Nickname of all time. Accolades speak for themselves.

Kobe came into the league acting like MJ, but without the skill set, so he was forced to come off the pine until he developed his game. Made it a personal quest to become the Greatest Jordan Impersonator of all time, all the while shooting his team out of games and not following his coach's instructions.

Helped to run out of town the player responsible for putting him on the map in Shaq, along with inspiring his Hall of Fame, award winning coach to write a book explaining how uncoachable he was. Developed the most zealot filled, cult like following of Fans beyond any rational reasoning when it comes to his place in history or as a Star Player, only recently learning how to be a leader for his team after 15 years in the league.

Whatever happens this year, I'm sticking with Magic as the better Laker.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[KenneBell]

and as a Laker, Magic, KAJ, West and O'neal are all above him.

No they aren't. Magic is the probably the only one you can really argue for at this point.

Shaq being higher on the list than Kobe is laughable at best.

[colts19]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kobe is a fine player, He is not even in the same sentence as the following:

Magic
Bird
MJ
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Kareem
By my count he is about the 4th best Laker. Magic, Kareem, West and Shaq were all either better or more dominate.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Magic, and it's really not a debate.
He was far better playoffs performer and I would take his career over Kobe's aswel.

When Kobe retires, he will stay to me just another poor Jordan version, and that's it.
There will not be even one more "Magic", and that's what it's all about.

[KingKobe]

i love magic but kobes da greatest nig ever :applause:

[che guevara]

The reason people criticize Kobe, is because he wasn't the leader on those Shaq led team, where as the day Magic and Bird stepped on the floor, they were the unquestioned leaders for their teams.

Last years finals hurt Kobe's legacy in my opinion, if he is top 5 like everyone claims, he sure hasn't proven it in the finals. Magic is the best Laker ever imo, when Kobe is done with his career its possible he can surpass him.
:facepalm Magic was the unquestioned leader of his team from day 1?

[ShaqAttack3234]

The reason people criticize Kobe, is because he wasn't the leader on those Shaq led team, where as the day Magic and Bird stepped on the floor, they were the unquestioned leaders for their teams.

Kareem was the best player in the league when Magic entered the league. Kareem won league MVP and had one of the greatest playoff runs of all time that season. Magic wasn't the unquestioned leader until '86. If Kobe being number 2 behind Shaq hurts him, then why not the same standard for Magic winning his first 2 titles as number 2 behind Kareem and at least 1.A or 1.B with Kareem for his 3rd? IMO, Kareem is the greatest player in NBA history, so I don't see why there's this double standard applied to Kobe.


You people do realise that if Kobe is a "better Laker" then he also has a better career already and is a better player than Magic? Which means Kobe is already top 2-4 greatest player of all time?

Kobe being better than Magic doesn't necessarily mean he's top 2-4 of all time.


No, just no.. this is not even debatable, especially not for me who even have Magic at #1 on my top 10 list like i said on the other thread:

I don't see why it's not debatable. I have Magic slightly ahead of Kobe, but they both have advantages over each other. Magic had playmaking and rebounding over Kobe while Kobe had scoring and defense over Magic

[QUOTE]In addition, Magic Johnson is often credited with the following: Resurrecting Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[NBASTATMAN]

One guy won at every level including college.. As a rookie led his team to a victory IN THE FINALS playing the center position.. More MVP'S, played vs better competition, and went to the finals more... That guy is clearly better... Kobe may wind up with a better career but I don't think he has ever shown he is the better player...

[jlauber]

It's quite simple...

After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season (and four finals in five years), LA was mired in years of mediocrity. Before Magic arrived in the '79-80 season, the Lakers had either been a non-playoff team, a first round exit, or was swept in the WCF's...for six years.

Magic arrived and not only did he lead them to 60 wins, he led them to a title in his very first year...and in the clinching game six win on the road, and without Kareem, he put up perhaps the greatest Finals game in NBA history.

In his 12 years in the league, the Laker averaged 59 wins per season. They went to nine Finals in those 12 years, and they won five of them.

Kareem retired following the 88-89 season, and the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team. And in Magic's last season (not counting his comeback year in the mid-90's), Magic took an aged and injured Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals appearance.

After Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plunged to records of 43-39 and then 39-43.


Kobe has been a great player, but he has NEVER had the impact that Magic had on the game. Maybe he will, but not at this point in his career. And, no, not even Kareem could carry a team like Magic. The evidence is overwhelming as to who the REAL leader of the Laker Dynasty of the 80's was.

[NBASTATMAN]

It's quite simple...

After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season (and four finals in five years), LA was mired in years of mediocrity. Before Magic arrived in the '79-80 season, the Lakers had either been a non-playoff team, a first round exit, or was swept in the WCF's...for six years.

Magic arrived and not only did he lead them to 60 wins, he led them to a title in his very first year...and in the clinching game six win on the road, and without Kareem, he put up perhaps the greatest Finals game in NBA history.

In his 12 years in the league, the Laker averaged 59 wins per season. They went to nine Finals in those 12 years, and they won five of them.

Kareem retired following the 88-89 season, and the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team. And in Magic's last season (not counting his comeback year in the mid-90's), Magic took an aged and injured Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals appearance.

After Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plunged to records of 43-39 and then 39-43.


Kobe has been a great player, but he has NEVER had the impact that Magic had on the game. Maybe he will, but not at this point in his career. And, no, not even Kareem could carry a team like Magic. The evidence is overwhelming as to who the REAL leader of the Laker Dynasty of the 80's was.



:applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic arrived and not only did he lead them to 60 wins, he led them to a title in his very first year

He didn't lead them to 60 wins and a title, Kareem did, Magic was part of the cast.


Kareem retired following the 88-89 season, and the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team. And in Magic's last season (not counting his comeback year in the mid-90's), Magic took an aged and injured Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals appearance.

What the hell does this have to do with Kobe vs Magic? And you left out the fact that Kareem was 42 when he retired, not to mention that while they improved their regular season record, they lost in the semifinals in 1990 instead of the finals in 1989.


And, no, not even Kareem could carry a team like Magic. The evidence is overwhelming as to who the REAL leader of the Laker Dynasty of the 80's was.

:oldlol:

1980= Kareem
1982= Kareem
1985= 1.A/1.B
1987= Magic
1988= Magic

Kareem couldn't carry a team like Magic? He got the '74 Bucks to game 7 of the finals while averaging nearly as many points as his 2nd and 3rd leading scorers combined in the playoffs.

Hell, even mid 80's Kareem was by far the Lakers best scorer, the Laker who drew the most double teams by far, the guy they turned to most often for clutch baskets and he still made a much bigger impact defensively than Magic did.

[Walduś]

kobe and it's not even close.

[ginobli2311]

i have magic. its not a huge gap, but its not that close for me either.

really for me it boils down to the fact that magic had such a great run for this 12 year career. i mean....9 finals appearances and 5 titles in 12 years....amazing.

maybe i over-rate magic a little, but i put him in a different class because i think he could have led just about any team to 55 plus wins at any point in his career and would had playoff sucess.

kind of like lebron now. to me, they are just much more dominant than kobe. put lebron on any team and if he's healthy they win around 55 games in my opinion.

that is how i felt about magic. put him on any team and he would turn what you think of as garbage into gold.

i've never felt that way about kobe.

[az00m]

Lol Neither of these are the greatest laker... Kareem is.


But magic is still the better lake than kobe. He led his team from year 1, even carried them in the finals as a rookie.

[jlauber]

He didn't lead them to 60 wins and a title, Kareem did, Magic was part of the cast.



What the hell does this have to do with Kobe vs Magic? And you left out the fact that Kareem was 42 when he retired, not to mention that while they improved their regular season record, they lost in the semifinals in 1990 instead of the finals in 1989.



:oldlol:

1980= Kareem
1982= Kareem
1985= 1.A/1.B
1987= Magic
1988= Magic

Kareem couldn't carry a team like Magic? He got the '74 Bucks to game 7 of the finals while averaging nearly as many points as his 2nd and 3rd leading scorers combined in the playoffs.

Hell, even mid 80's Kareem was by far the Lakers best scorer, the Laker who drew the most double teams by far, the guy they turned to most often for clutch baskets and he still made a much bigger impact defensively than Magic did.

YOU brought up Kareem in YOUR previous post.

Here are the FACTS.

Kareem won ONE title, in a year in which Wilt's Lakers were without BOTH Baylor and West. BTW, his 66-16 Bucks beat a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

His 63 win Bucks were eliminated in six games by Wilt's Lakers in the '72 WCF's.

His 60 win Bucks were eliminated by a 47-35 team in the first round of the '73 playoffs (in a series in which he was AWFUL.)

His 59 win Bucks (with the best record in the league) were beaten by the Celtics in the '74 Finals (and in game seven, he was outplayed by 6-9 red-head Dave Cowens.)

In the '74-75 season, he missed 16 games with a broken hand (my god, Wilt DOMINATED a clinching game five win in the '72 Finals with a broken wrist...and his other hand severely sprained), and the Bucks went 38-44. BTW, a 48 win Warrior team with only one superstar won the title.

He was traded to the Lakers in the 75-76 season. The result? A 40-42 record, while his former Buck team went 38-44 without him (the same record they had the previous year, with him.)

His 76-77 Laker team had the best record in the league. The result? They were swept by a 49-33 Blazer team that would win the title against Philly.

His 77-78 Laker team, with players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Charlie Scott, and Adrian Dantley (who had been a 26 ppg scorer the year before) went 45-37, and were eliminated in the first round by a 47-35 Sonic team with only one borderline HOFer. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that year.

His 78-79 Laker team, now with Jamaal Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, went 47-35 and were wiped out, 4-1, in the second round of the playoffs by a 52-30 Sonic team with one borderline HOF player.

THAT was Kareem's career BEFORE Magic.

Magic arrived...and 60 wins, a title, and in the clinching game six win, with Kareem sitting at home with a sprained ankle (my god, Russell played with a broken foot in the playoffs one year, and Chamberlain played several games with THREE leg injuries in '68)...Magic pours in 42 points (proving that he COULD have scored MUCH more in his career), and DOMINATED the glass with 15 rebounds (no other player had more than 10 on either team) as well as handing out seven assists.

BTW, Magic played alongside Kareem for ten seasons. In the last EIGHT, he finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting. In fact, Magic SHOULD have won the league MVP in '82. He also won more Finals MVPs in those years (3-1), and more MVPs, 3-1.

And, the Lakers went 0-2 in the '89 Finals (actually 0-2 1/2) without Magic, and were swept. Obviously, Magic could overcome Kareem's loss, but it was not the other way around. AND, the Lakers won the title in '88 DESPITE the AWFUL play of Kareem.

Once again...BEFORE Magic...mediocrity. AFTER Kareem...63-19, and 58-24. AFTER Magic...43-39 and 39-43.

[G-Funk]

his almost there. 1 more ring and he surpasses him.

[ginobli2311]

YOU brought up Kareem in YOUR previous post.

Here are the FACTS.

Kareem won ONE title, in a year in which Wilt's Lakers were without BOTH Baylor and West.

His 63 win Bucks were eliminated in six games in the '72 WCF's.

His 60 win Bucks were eliminated by a 47-35 team in the first round of the '73 playoffs (in a series in which he was AWFUL.)

His 59 win Bucks (with the best record in the league) were beaten by the Celtics in the '74 Finals (and in game seven, he was outplayed by 6-9 red-head Dave Cowens.)

In the '74-75 season, he missed 16 games with a broken hand (my god, Wilt DOMINATED a clinching game five win in the '72 Finals with a broken wrist...and his other hand severely sprained), and the Bucks went 38-44. BTW, a 48 win Warrior team with only one superstar one the title.

He was traded to the Lakers in the 75-76 season. The result? A 40-42 record, while his former Buck team went 38-44 without him (the same record they had the previous year, with him.)

His 76-77 Laker team had the best record in the league. The result? They were swept by a 49-33 Blazer team that would win the title against Philly.

His 77-78 Laker team, with players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Charlie Scott, and Adrian Dantley (who had been a 26 ppg scorer the year before) went 45-37, and were eliminated in the first round by a 47-35 Sonic team with only one borderline HOFer. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that year.

His 78-79 Laker team, now with Jamaal Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, went 47-35 and were wiped out, 4-1, in the second round of the playoffs by a 52-30 Sonic team with one borderline HOF player.

THAT was Kareem's career BEFORE Magic.

Magic arrived...and 60 wins, a title, and in the clinching game six win, with Kareem sitting at home with a sprained ankle (my god, Russell played with a broken foot in the playoffs one year, and Chamberlain played several games with THREE leg injuries in '68)...Magic pours in 42 points (proving that he COULD have scored MUCH more in his career), and DOMINATED the glass with 15 rebounds (no other player had more than 10 on either team) as well as handing out seven assists.

BTW, Magic played alongside Kareem for ten seasons. In the last EIGHT, he finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting. In fact, Magic SHOULD have won the league MVP in '82. He also won more Finals MVPs in those years (3-1), and more MVPs, 3-1.

And, the Lakers went 0-2 in the '89 Finals (actually 0-2 1/2) without Magic, and were swept. Obviously, Magic could overcome Kareem's loss, but it was not the other way around. AND, the Lakers won the title in '88 DESPITE the AWFUL play of Kareem.

Once again...BEFORE Magic...mediocrity. AFTER Kareem...63-19, and 58-24. AFTER Magic...43-39 and 39-43.

yea. its interesting, because i've never considered kareem better than magic after magic's rookie season. the vibe i got from kareem was that he really didn't love the game the way magic did. i honestly don't think kareem cared all that much before magic came along.

i think kareem has a legit case for the greatest career ever, but i don't think he should be considered the greatest player ever. i never felt that way watching him in the late 70s or 80s....but i think i've been overwhelmed by his numbers and a little bit of revisionist history.

i've got a lot of magic/kareem games coming in the mail on dvd and hopefully that will refresh my memory at little. i just got done watching about 100 bird games on dvd and really......i totally forgot just how great bird was. i used to have duncan and shaq above him. now i have bird....

but back to the kobe vs magic thing. kobe's stretch from 03 to 08 really hurts him in my opinion. three legit title contending teams. 0 titles....1 all time awful finals performance. 1 mediocre at best finals performance. missing the playoffs. 2 first round losses. all right in the heart of his prime as a player. i just don't think that would have ever happened with magic.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Here are the FACTS

Nope, just more biased crap.


Kareem won ONE title, in a year in which Wilt's Lakers were without BOTH Baylor and West.

Are you really going to discredit Kareem's '71 title?


His 63 win Bucks were eliminated in six games in the '72 WCF's.

By a 69 win Laker team.


His 60 win Bucks were eliminated by a 47-35 team in the first round of the '73 playoffs (in a series in which he was AWFUL.)

Who said Kareem was perfect?


His 59 win Bucks (with the best record in the league) were beaten by the Celtics in the '74 Finals (and in game seven, he was outplayed by 6-9 red-head Dave Cowens.)

It's a miracle that he got to game 7 of the finals that year considering their third leading scorer Lucius Allen(18/4/5/2, 50 FG%) missed the playoffs, Kareem averaged 32.2 ppg while his 2nd and 3rd leading scorers in the playoffs combined barely topped that at 33.3 ppg and in game 6, Kareem hit the game-winning shot in double OT to send the series to a 7th game.


In the '74-75 season, he missed 16 games with a broken hand (my god, Wilt DOMINATED a clinching game five win in the '72 Finals with a broken wrist...and his other hand severely sprained), and the Bucks went 38-44. BTW, a 48 win Warrior team with only one superstar one the title.

What the hell does Wilt have to do with this? I'm not even going to argue with you about Wilt because it just gets annoying. And that '75 Bucks team was 3-14 without him and 35-30 with him.


He was traded to the Lakers in the 75-76 season. The result? A 40-42 record, while his former Buck team went 38-44 without him (the same record they had the previous year, with him.)

They had a 35-30 record with him and he went to a 30-52 Lakers team that traded away part of their core to get him. But of course you leave out key facts again.


His 76-77 Laker team had the best record in the league. The result? They were swept by a 49-33 Blazer team that would win the title against Philly.

They had the best record in the league because a dominant force like Kareem can carry role players, but one player can't win in the playoffs, we've seen this recently with Lebron's 60+ win Cavs teams.

By the way, Magic has also lost with the best record in the league, remember when he lost in the '90 semifinals to Phoenix?


His 77-78 Laker team, with players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Charlie Scott, and Adrian Dantley (who had been a 26 ppg scorer the year before) went 45-37, and were eliminated in the first round by a 47-35 Sonic team with only one borderline HOFer. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that year.

And that Laker team was below .500 without him(8-12 or 8-13 if you count the game he left early).


His 78-79 Laker team, now with Jamaal Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, went 47-35 and were wiped out, 4-1, in the second round of the playoffs by a 52-30 Sonic team with one borderline HOF player.

And Jamaal Wilkes was playing out of position at PF a lot and the Lakers had no perimeter defenders, Gus Williams torched them for 31 ppg.

[G-Funk]

typical Kobe haters chose Magic. haha

[jlauber]

yea. its interesting, because i've never considered kareem better than magic after magic's rookie season. the vibe i got from kareem was that he really didn't love the game the way magic did. i honestly don't think kareem cared all that much before magic came along.

i think kareem has a legit case for the greatest career ever, but i don't think he should be considered the greatest player ever. i never felt that way watching him in the late 70s or 80s....but i think i've been overwhelmed by his numbers and a little bit of revisionist history.

i've got a lot of magic/kareem games coming in the mail on dvd and hopefully that will refresh my memory at little. i just got done watching about 100 bird games on dvd and really......i totally forgot just how great bird was. i used to have duncan and shaq above him. now i have bird....

but back to the kobe vs magic thing. kobe's stretch from 03 to 08 really hurts him in my opinion. three legit title contending teams. 0 titles. missing the playoffs. 2 first round losses. all right in the heart of his prime as a player. i just don't think they would have ever happened with magic.

Kobe is a top-10 player, and his playoff scoring is among the best ever. BUT, Magic DOMINATED in the post-season. I always found it laughable that Magic was called "Tragic" following the '84 Finals. All he did in those seven games was average 18.1 ppg , led his team in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the floor (which was WAY better than either Bird or Kareem shot.)

And that was considered one of his WORST Finals! His '86-87 Finals was among the greatest ever. He LED LA in scoring, 26.2 ppg, rebounding, 8.0 rpg, and assists, 13.0 apg...and shot .541 from the field, .960 from the line, and .500 from the arc.

And CLEARLY, Magic coluld have scored MUCH more had he been inclined. His 42 point game in the clinching game six win in his rookie season was all the evidence anyone would need.

Furthermore, he made his teammates much better. The records don't lie. Average team before Magic. Average team after Magic. And in between, nearly 60 wins per season, nine finals, and five titles, in 12 seasons.

Kobe just has not had that kind of impact. And until he does, he will NEVER be considered a greater player than Magic.

[kaiiu]

Kobe is a top-10 player, and his playoff scoring is among the best ever. BUT, Magic DOMINATED in the post-season. I always found it laughable that Magic was called "Tragic" following the '84 Finals. All he did in those seven games was average 18.1 ppg , led his team in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the floor (which was WAY better than either Bird or Kareem shot.)

And that was considered one of his WORST Finals! His '86-87 Finals was among the greatest ever. He LED in scoring, 26.2 ppg, rebounding, 8.0 rpg, and assists, 13.0 apg...and shot .541 from the field, .960 from the line, and .500 from the arc.

And CLEARLY, Magic coluld have scored MUCH more had he been inclined. His 42 point game in the clinching game six win in his rookie season was all the evidence anyone would need.


Furthermore, he made his teammates much better. The records don't lie. Average team before Magic. Average team after Magic. And in between, nearly 60 wins per season, nine finals, and five titles, in 12 seasons.

Kobe just has not had that kind of impact. And until he does, he will NEVER be considered a greater player than Magic.

:applause: :bowdown: didnt know he was that great of a shooter

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Magic, but Kobe's career isn't over.

[Micku]

Magic is more iconic with his legendary showtime Lakers. He brought Hollywood to the Lakers, and he "broke" the curse with the Celts.

Kobe career isn't over yet, and he might pass the Lakers beloved Magic, but time will time. You can argue that he pass him already, but we'll see. You can't really determine until he retires or if he is really incredible.

[ShaqAttack3234]

really for me it boils down to the fact that magic had such a great run for this 12 year career. i mean....9 finals appearances and 5 titles in 12 years....amazing.

If you start Kobe's career at 20 years old, which is the same age that Magic was as a rookie and the same age that Kobe became a starter, he had 5 titles and 7 finals appearances in 12 years as well.


maybe i over-rate magic a little, but i put him in a different class because i think he could have led just about any team to 55 plus wins at any point in his career and would had playoff sucess.

Magic at any point in his career wins 55+ games and has playoff success on just about any team? That definitely wouldn't happen with rookie Magic. And honestly, I only think of '87-'90 Magic as being able to do something like that. Of course it's all speculation because Magic always had a ton of talent around him.

[bstickq1]

This is slightly off topic, but I'll never understand how threads like this end up boiling down to stats or achievements.

All one has to do to determine if a player is better than another is to simply watch him play. Actually, this is the ONLY way.

Whether one shoots 60% and the other 40%, one dishes up 8 assists the other 5, one has 10 rings and the other has 0, it doesn't mean a damn thing unless they are in two parallel worlds where they are in the exact same position as each other with the exact same team mates and opponents. If any of these variables are different, the comparison is moot.

[Calabis]

:facepalm Magic was the unquestioned leader of his team from day 1?

Yes, he ran the team and was the floor general, his play and attitude was infectious, when Kareem went down, he showed up with a great performance in the finals unlike Kobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2zZZKRvCI

Don't get me wrong he wasn't stepping on Kareem's toes, but when the ball went up, he ran the team period

[Ruh-Roh]

Magic was a better leader for his whole career and one of the best team-players in the history of basketball.

He was a great ambassador for the Lakers, NBA & USA Basketball.

Kobe could probably take him 1 on 1 more than half the time, but Magic will always be the greatest Laker even if Kobe swept him in 1 on 1's.

There is no way you can dislike The Magic Man, unless you are from Boston...and I'm convinced they don't believe themselves :lol

[Ne 1]

Yes, he ran the team and was the floor general, his play and attitude was infectious, when Kareem went down, he showed up with a great performance in the finals unlike Kobe

Actually when Shaq fouled out, Kobe toke over and won Game 4 for the Lakers in the 2000 Finals.

[Calabis]

Kareem was the best player in the league when Magic entered the league. Kareem won league MVP and had one of the greatest playoff runs of all time that season. Magic wasn't the unquestioned leader until '86. If Kobe being number 2 behind Shaq hurts him, then why not the same standard for Magic winning his first 2 titles as number 2 behind Kareem and at least 1.A or 1.B with Kareem for his 3rd? IMO, Kareem is the greatest player in NBA history, so I don't see why there's this double standard applied to Kobe.



Kobe being better than Magic doesn't necessarily mean he's top 2-4 of all time.



I don't see why it's not debatable. I have Magic slightly ahead of Kobe, but they both have advantages over each other. Magic had playmaking and rebounding over Kobe while Kobe had scoring and defense over Magic



:facepalm Kareem was the best player in the league the season before Magic got there. Kareem helped Magic's career at least as much as Magic helped his career.

I disagree, Magic was a dominant player, once he stepped foot on the court, he was the floor general for the Lakers, he is the one who got the Lakers running, because his uncanny ability to see the entire floor from anywhere on the court......don't get me wrong, we know Kareem was a great player, but let's not forget Magic was the first rookie ever voted to start a all star game, when scoring was needed he did just that, when Kareem went down they didn't miss a beat and he put up one of the best individual NBA Finals performances ever, he was named MVP of the finals his Rookie Year, that's why its different then Kobe

[Calabis]

Actually when Shaq fouled out, Kobe toke over and won Game 4 for the Lakers in the 2000 Finals.

Was he Finals MVP???? Magic was

[Ne 1]

Was he Finals MVP???? Magic was

No, but Kareem eaisly should have been Finals MVP. I watched that entire series and their is no way that Kareem wasn't the MVP of that series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I disagree, Magic was a dominant player, once he stepped foot on the court, he was the floor general for the Lakers, he is the one who got the Lakers running, because his uncanny ability to see the entire floor from anywhere on the court......don't get me wrong, we know Kareem was a great player, but let's not forget Magic was the first rookie ever voted to start a all star game, when scoring was needed he did just that, when Kareem went down they didn't miss a beat and he put up one of the best individual NBA Finals performances ever, he was named MVP of the finals his Rookie Year, that's why its different then Kobe

Kareem was robbed of the finals MVP award, Magic was the MVP of game 6, but Kareem was the MVP of the first 5 games. Starting in the all-star game as a rookie is nice, but Magic didn't even make an all-nba team in his rookie season.

Magic wasn't even close to Kareem's level in 1980, one game doesn't change that.

[DuMa]

and now Kobe stans are forced to diminish Magic's career

[Ne 1]

and now Kobe stans are forced to diminish Magic's career

Not trying to diminish Magic at all.

Actually dosen't matter either way because although Kareem defiantly was the MVP of the '80 Finals, Magic probably should have been the Finals MVP in '88.

[Replay32]

Magic

[Lebron23]

and now Kobe stans are forced to diminish Magic's career

Kobe stans = Zero Basketball IQ

[Pointguard]

Nash was mini -Magic and he dominated recently - or got a lot of MVPs... He couldn't rebound like Magic, he couldn't see over the defense like Magic, he couldn't play the slow down game like Magic, he wasn't as clutch as Magic, he didn't have the third eye like, and he got his style from Magic. Magic could have posted down low and joined the run and gun Suns in the mid '00s. Magic was versatile enought to play the slow down game. Magic is one of the greatest ever because he had great judgement, skills and ability to pace the game. His decision making and ability to create plays out of thin air for other people is above even Chris Pauls. Nobody in the game today has his court vision. His leadership is among the best the sport has seen.

Magic coralled difficult personalities and had them channel that into winning ways. Kareem wasn't an easy guy to get along with. He inspired players unlike anybody since. He had the timing down of other players down to a science. He was so intertwined with his offense that the players had the look of being attached to him by strings. In an Magic offense people moved and were eager to play their part. Magic beat you with decisions, by forcing the pace, inspiring his teammates, leading and keeping his team on the same page. His team could win off of his generosity or if he had to do it himself, he did it. Magic was one step ahead of his oponent and, more often than not, two steps ahead in game plan. And he could adjust better than most great players.

Most of these qualities Magic has in superior portions than the top ten GOAT. I have Kobe in that list for sure. Not as high as Magic tho.

[Replay32]

Actually when Shaq fouled out, Kobe toke over and won Game 4 for the Lakers in the 2000 Finals.

Yeah, but shaq actually played in that game too. He had 36pts and 21 rebs, before fouling out (That was a weak foul on shaq btw). If shaq wasn't there I doubt the lakers would of won the game. Kobe did come through at the end though.

But Shaq had a huge impact in that game.

[anyonebutmiami]

Magic still is ahead, but Kobe has time.....

[BEAST Griffin]

Magic Johnson >>>> Kobe Bryant

[gengiskhan]

Magic still is ahead, but Kobe has time.....

Hmmm. Let see.

Magic 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1 MVP
Magic 5 rings as Da Man to Kobe's 2 rings as Da Man
Magic won Finals MVP as Rookie to Bench warming Kobe couldn't win ROTY.
Magic transformed the PG position to Kobe's cheap immitations of GOAT MJ.
Magic bested his chief arch rival Bird winning 2 our of 3 Finals match up

to

Kobe never faced any real arch rival in NBA finals despite appearing in 7 NBA finals so far.


Totally agreed. Magic is leagues ahead of Kobe. Kobe can never catch up.

[IGOTGAME]

Nash was mini -Magic and he dominated recently - or got a lot of MVPs... He couldn't rebound like Magic, he couldn't see over the defense like Magic, he couldn't play the slow down game like Magic, he wasn't as clutch as Magic, he didn't have the third eye like, and he got his style from Magic. Magic could have posted down low and joined the run and gun Suns in the mid '00s. Magic was versatile enought to play the slow down game. Magic is one of the greatest ever because he had great judgement, skills and ability to pace the game. His decision making and ability to create plays out of thin air for other people is above even Chris Pauls. Nobody in the game today has his court vision. His leadership is among the best the sport has seen.

Magic coralled difficult personalities and had them channel that into winning ways. Kareem wasn't an easy guy to get along with. He inspired players unlike anybody since. He had the timing down of other players down to a science. He was so intertwined with his offense that the players had the look of being attached to him by strings. In an Magic offense people moved and were eager to play their part. Magic beat you with decisions, by forcing the pace, inspiring his teammates, leading and keeping his team on the same page. His team could win off of his generosity or if he had to do it himself, he did it. Magic was one step ahead of his oponent and, more often than not, two steps ahead in game plan. And he could adjust better than most great players.

Most of these qualities Magic has in superior portions than the top ten GOAT. I have Kobe in that list for sure. Not as high as Magic tho.

Sorry but Nash wasnt 6"9 but he has elite court vision. I don't know if anyone in the history of the game had "noticiably" better court vision than Nash. I also know that Nash made up for his lack of height and athletism by becoming one of the best shooters of all time. LOL at this Nash jacked Magics style. They play nothing alike.

Im a Laker fan but people are talking about Magic like he was Kareem. Magic is the second best Laker ever, but comeon give me Kareem every single time.

[gengiskhan]

Magic Johnson >>>> Kobe Bryant

Hmmm. Let see.

Magic 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1 MVP
Magic 5 rings as Da Man to Kobe's 2 rings as Da Man
Magic won Finals MVP as Rookie to Bench warming Kobe couldn't win ROTY.
Magic transformed the PG position to Kobe's cheap immitations of GOAT MJ.
Magic bested his chief arch rival Bird winning 2 our of 3 Finals match up

to

Kobe never faced any real arch rival in NBA finals despite appearing in 7 NBA finals so far.


Totally agreed. Magic is leagues ahead of Kobe. Kobe can never catch up

[macpierce]

the hate is strong in this thread, never the less started by a troll
Is everyone going to hate on any player that didnt "revolutionize" their positions??? :oldlol:
however if the lakers win this year.............:pimp:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hmmm. Let see.

Magic 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1 MVP

MVPs are voted on by the media, I personally think Jordan deserved it in 1990 when Magic got it and Kobe had a good case in 2006 when he didn't win.


Magic 5 rings as Da Man to Kobe's 2 rings as Da Man

:oldlol: Magic wasn't even close to the man on the 1980 Lakers, in fact, Kobe was closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980.

Magic only had 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team.


Magic won Finals MVP as Rookie to Bench warming Kobe couldn't win ROTY.

Kobe was 18, Magic was 20, and Magic winning finals MVP over Kareem that year was a joke.


Magic transformed the PG position to Kobe's cheap immitations of GOAT MJ.

What does this have to do with how effectively they played the game? Not to mention that Kobe and MJ aren't identical.


Kobe never faced any real arch rival in NBA finals despite appearing in 7 NBA finals so far.

Kobe has no control over this.

[KingKobe]

MVPs are voted on by the media, I personally think Jordan deserved it in 1990 when Magic got it and Kobe had a good case in 2006 when he didn't win.



:oldlol: Magic wasn't even close to the man on the 1980 Lakers, in fact, Kobe was closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980.

Magic only had 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team.



Kobe was 18, Magic was 20, and Magic winning finals MVP over Kareem that year was a joke.



What does this have to do with how effectively they played the game? Not to mention that Kobe and MJ aren't identical.



Kobe has no control over this.
:applause:

and to think i thot u would be a biased shaq homer/kobe hater when i saw ur name :banghead:

[gengiskhan]

MVPs are voted on by the media, I personally think Jordan deserved it in 1990 when Magic got it and Kobe had a good case in 2006 when he didn't win.

if this is the case, MJ should've won 1987 MVP for scoring 37.1 ppgs too. :oldlol:

:oldlol: Magic only had 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team.

Then kobe has a 0 rings as "undisputed" best player on the team. Kobe rode on dominant big mans like Shaq & Gasol way too much for 5 rings. :oldlol:


Kobe was 18, Magic was 20, and Magic winning finals MVP over Kareem that year was a joke.

go watch how 18 yrs old PG stepped into "Center" position which is total his not a usual position but played a game of his life in game 6. 42 pts/15/7/2/1 without kareem & lifting trophy.


What does this have to do with how effectively they played the game? Not to mention that Kobe and MJ aren't identical.
Copy bryant has copied MJ's game to improve his effectiveness. Magic re-invented & redefinted PG position to improve his effectiveness. :facepalm


Kobe has no control over this.

But kobe had control over his efficiency in NBA finals. 7 NBA finals & still no GOAT like MJ stats. on top of that no arch rival. :facepalm :facepalm

[Pointguard]

Sorry but Nash wasnt 6"9 but he has elite court vision. I don't know if anyone in the history of the game had "noticiably" better court vision than Nash. I also know that Nash made up for his lack of height and athletism by becoming one of the best shooters of all time. LOL at this Nash jacked Magics style. They play nothing alike.

Im a Laker fan but people are talking about Magic like he was Kareem. Magic is the second best Laker ever, but comeon give me Kareem every single time.

Ha! There were two Kareems, the one before Magic and the one after Magic. He underachieved for ten years and won one ring in a weak era, then, literally like Magic, he wins 5 rings in the toughest era of the sport. He was obviously reinvigorated when Magic works his game on him. There is only one Magic, Kareem or no Kareem, he makes it to the finals and even wins more without Kareem in the regular season. No way does Magic come out of the 70's with one ring.

Oh and I forgot who was ahead in the MVP races? Who was winning the finals MVP's? Who was the leader of the team? Who was making the big decisions? Who controlled pace? Who did managment trust? Who had to slow his game down to adapt to the others lack of hustle? Who was the better rebounder? Who.

[Pointguard]

Sorry but Nash wasnt 6"9 but he has elite court vision. I don't know if anyone in the history of the game had "noticiably" better court vision than Nash. I also know that Nash made up for his lack of height and athletism by becoming one of the best shooters of all time. LOL at this Nash jacked Magics style. They play nothing alike.

By your statement I can tell you didn't see Magic play.

D'Antoni has said as much the run and come game came out of the running teams of the 80's and who had the best point guard in a running game? Nash was a good point guard but not a great one until he played in D'Antoni's system.

[Lebron23]

Ha! There were two Kareems, the one before Magic and the one after Magic. He underachieved for ten years and won one ring in a weak era, then, literally like Magic, he wins 5 rings in the toughest era of the sport. He was obviously reinvigorated when Magic works his game on him. There is only one Magic, Kareem or no Kareem, he makes it to the finals and even wins more without Kareem in the regular season. No way does Magic come out of the 70's with one ring.

Oh and I forgot who was ahead in the MVP races? Who was winning the finals MVP's? Who was the leader of the team? Who was making the big decisions? Who controlled pace? Who did managment trust? Who had to slow his game down to adapt to the others lack of hustle? Who was the better rebounder? Who.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

Repped

[DaHeezy]

Then kobe has a 0 rings as "undisputed" best player on the team. Kobe rode on dominant big mans like Shaq & Gasol way too much for 5 rings. :oldlol:





The stupidity of just this statement alone nulifies any statement you can ever make regarding a Kobe topic. Please do not involve yourself in any Kobe Bryant threads

[ginobli2311]

Ha! There were two Kareems, the one before Magic and the one after Magic. He underachieved for ten years and won one ring in a weak era, then, literally like Magic, he wins 5 rings in the toughest era of the sport. He was obviously reinvigorated when Magic works his game on him. There is only one Magic, Kareem or no Kareem, he makes it to the finals and even wins more without Kareem in the regular season. No way does Magic come out of the 70's with one ring.

Oh and I forgot who was ahead in the MVP races? Who was winning the finals MVP's? Who was the leader of the team? Who was making the big decisions? Who controlled pace? Who did managment trust? Who had to slow his game down to adapt to the others lack of hustle? Who was the better rebounder? Who.

bingo.

[Lebron23]

Where's Crisoner? The Self proclaimed Magic Johnson fan.

[KG5MVP]

Magic is better than Kobe at everything except scoring

[macpierce]

Magic is better than Kobe at everything except scoring and defense
fixed

[Horde of Temujin]

if they played one on one Kobe would win 6 out of 24 times.

[Maniak]

Magic is the greatest Laker and Kobe won't catch him.

Magic was a leader from day ONE. According to Phil, Kobe didn't have good leadership qualities until he was in his 12th season. Actually this whole thing isn't even debatable, Magic's leadership is the best in the history of basketball imo. It's something Kobe has always struggled with.

Magic made ALL of his teammates better and the fact that 6'9" could bring the ball up, so versatile. It's not even a debate imo. Magic >>> Kobe. It's not even a debate.

There will never ever be another player like Magic Johnson. If you weren't around to watch him, you just missed out. Youtube highlights just don't do him justice, he was a floor general, a master of basketball with an INSANE level of ball IQ. He ALWAYS knew what to do and what the right play was. He was always talking basically controlling all the players, he was a coach on the floor.

You've got to remember what the old #8 used to play like. He didn't follow the system well, he was a selfish player and wasn't a good teammate. It's a shame it took him so long to understand things better because his skills are in the top 10-15 in NBA history.
Amazing post.

[Calabis]

If you start Kobe's career at 20 years old, which is the same age that Magic was as a rookie and the same age that Kobe became a starter, he had 5 titles and 7 finals appearances in 12 years as well.



Magic at any point in his career wins 55+ games and has playoff success on just about any team? That definitely wouldn't happen with rookie Magic. And honestly, I only think of '87-'90 Magic as being able to do something like that. Of course it's all speculation because Magic always had a ton of talent around him.

If you start Kobe's career at 20??? Why do people say this crap, I don't understand it,....they assume gaining NBA exp for two years, is not an advantage, over a 20 year old rookie, with none. He was 20 with two years NBA exp, that puts him ahead of the curve. Let's face it, Magic's rookie season, same age, he was still better than Kobe in his 3rd year.

This is a dumb argument, people insist on rewriting Kobe's career, "well if you remove Shaq he would have done this and that", "If you take away his first two seasons he avg's this many points, blah, blah blah."

These guys go to any length to make Kobe's career, more impressive, its comical.

Fact: he started playing fresh out of high school
Fact: he was not good enough to start for the team he wanted to play for and he did not impact his team at all his rookie year
Fact: If he was so much further along(as people claim), in skill and ability, than Magic was at age 17, then he should have been as good as Magic(20 yoa) at age 17

[gts]

[QUOTE=Jerry West]People say, well, that was an unbelievable shot

[gxL]

im sure when kobe retires, he's gonna be the greatest laker of all timeq

[Sakkreth]

Magic is GOAT, atleast in my opinion.

[Ne 1]

Who's the better Laker?

Has Kobe surpassed Magic at this point?

When it's all said and done I think Kobe will be remembered as the greatest Laker. Right now he's right up there with Magic/Kareem. Another championship would put him on top by himself IMO.

When he retires he'll be the Lakers all-time leading scorer. longest tenured player in Lakers history, most games played in a Lakers uniform etc. And most importantly if he wins another ring he won more championships with the Lakers than Kareem/Magic.

[Ne 1]

Last years finals hurt Kobe's legacy in my opinion

:roll:

How the hell does winning a ring hurt a players legacy? Only on ISH do mentally unstable morons think winning is losing....

Winning championships can only help your legacy. Don't have any idea what fantasy land you live in were winning damages a players legacy.

[ronniec]

Point is you're stupid. Kobe's career is on the brink of surpassing Magic's so get over it. Don't make up excuses.

Only on ISH is Magic a bigger icon than Kobe. Kobe's known INTERNATIONALLY. Kobe is the bigger icon and it's not even close.

Magic IS THE ICON, domestically and internationally.
Why did the dream team still want Magic on the team, after he was tested HIV? Popularity, respect, fame, reputation... do you think USA Basketball will pick Kobe if he was tested HIV (even this is just a hypothetical question)??

[silenc]

Magic!

[Ne 1]

do you think USA Basketball will pick Kobe if he was tested HIV (even this is just a hypothetical question)??

Yeah, why wouldn't they?

[ginobli2311]

:roll:

How the hell does winning a ring hurt a players legacy? Only on ISH do mentally unstable morons think winning is losing....

Winning championships can only help your legacy. Don't have any idea what fantasy land you live in were winning damages a players legacy.

i don't know if it hurts his legacy, but it does hurt where i rank him all time a little.

i want to see a dominant performance in the finals. he's been there 7 freaking times and he's shooting like 40% and has yet to have an iconic moment or elevate his game.

he's had arguably the worst finals ever by a top tier player ever.

and he just put up probably the worst game 7 performance in the finals ever.

we aren't comparing kobe to dirk or dr. j or malone or barkley. we are comparing kobe to the uber elites. and i'd just love to see kobe elevate his game on the biggest stage rather than crumble under the pressure of the finals.

same with lebron. he has 1 finals appearance and it was a disaster. if he gets back and his game regresses on the biggest stage for his career. i'm going to hammer him for it....and rightfully so.

[Ne 1]

i don't know if it hurts his legacy, but it does hurt where i rank him all time a little.

i want to see a dominant performance in the finals. he's been there 7 freaking times and he's shooting like 40% and has yet to have an iconic moment or elevate his game.

he's had arguably the worst finals ever by a top tier player ever.

and he just put up probably the worst game 7 performance in the finals ever.

we aren't comparing kobe to dirk or dr. j or malone or barkley. we are comparing kobe to the uber elites. and i'd just love to see kobe elevate his game on the biggest stage rather than crumble under the pressure of the finals.

same with lebron. he has 1 finals appearance and it was a disaster. if he gets back and his game regresses on the biggest stage for his career. i'm going to hammer him for it....and rightfully so.

Don't know what your getting at here. Kobe has had plenty of great finals games and memorable performances. The only time you can say he really "crumbled" in the finals was '04 and '08 to an extent. He gets killed for losing in the finals 2 times and labeled a choker. Magic lost in the finals 4 times, nobody regards him as a choker though, just a 5x champ. I swear Kobe is the only player that is held to such ridiculous standards.

Also I don't see your point about game 7 of last years finals. Kobe didn't have a particularity good shooting night but nobody did. It was a great defensive showing, and the reason the Lakers won was because of the team play, rebounding, and making clutch plays. It's true that Kobe had a poor shooting performance but he still contributed grabbing 15 rebounds, playing great D, and hit key free throws (7/8 from the line in the 4th quarter) and scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. Also can't forget hit a huge jumper with 3 minutes left to put the Lakers up 6 and the Celtics never had a realistic chance to get back in the game after he hit that shot. And it's not like Kobe is the only star player to have a poor shooting performance in the deciding game of the finals. I can actually name several others who have.


I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, Boston was badly out rebounded, and he [Kobe Bryant] didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game. - Celtics assistant coach and defensive mastermind Tom Thibodeau



Doesn't matter to me anyhow . Kobe's a 5x champion. Period.

[ashbelly]

i don't know if it hurts his legacy, but it does hurt where i rank him all time a little.

i want to see a dominant performance in the finals. he's been there 7 freaking times and he's shooting like 40% and has yet to have an iconic moment or elevate his game.

he's had arguably the worst finals ever by a top tier player ever.

and he just put up probably the worst game 7 performance in the finals ever.

we aren't comparing kobe to dirk or dr. j or malone or barkley. we are comparing kobe to the uber elites. and i'd just love to see kobe elevate his game on the biggest stage rather than crumble under the pressure of the finals.

same with lebron. he has 1 finals appearance and it was a disaster. if he gets back and his game regresses on the biggest stage for his career. i'm going to hammer him for it....and rightfully so.


This is all that had to be said.

/Thread.

[chris2010]

Magic is the greatest laker in team history. Kobe will not catch him in time. Kobe to me is #3 as of right now. if he wins one this year, Im putting him above kareem

[Harion]

Kobe will only be the greatest Laker as long as his fanboys are alive. once they'e dead and history can be judged by neutral observers, Kobe would be exposed for what he is.

[Pointguard]

i don't know if it hurts his legacy, but it does hurt where i rank him all time a little.

i want to see a dominant performance in the finals. he's been there 7 freaking times and he's shooting like 40% and has yet to have an iconic moment or elevate his game.

he's had arguably the worst finals ever by a top tier player ever.

and he just put up probably the worst game 7 performance in the finals ever.

we aren't comparing kobe to dirk or dr. j or malone or barkley. we are comparing kobe to the uber elites. and i'd just love to see kobe elevate his game on the biggest stage rather than crumble under the pressure of the finals.

same with lebron. he has 1 finals appearance and it was a disaster. if he gets back and his game regresses on the biggest stage for his career. i'm going to hammer him for it....and rightfully so.
True if you look at them in the finals alone it's definitely in favor of Magic. Magic is the worst guy to compare to Kobe. Most o Kobe's weaknesses are contrasted hard when he is next to Magic: Natural leadership, team cohesion, selflessness, uping shooting percentage in finals, great judgement, self sacrifice. No matter how you look at it the comparisn does nothing for Kobe. Better to just say where they rank in your top ten. Or rank them both to Kareem.

[32MJ32]

I don't like the argument at all.

1. Magic will always have an edge because he came first and played in what is considered the "golden era" of basketball in terms of excitement.

2. Kobe is always criticized for "riding Shaq's coattail" or having a stacked team. Magic had teams just as stacked and also played with Kareem who is a greater Center than Shaq. Most people think Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic. Dude was 28 when he first started and didn't significantly decline until he was 38. Magic and Bird are almost never criticized for their quality of teammates while Kobe is.

3. Kobe is currently playing in the game right now, his career isn't over, and he's got a lot of haters. After he retires and given time, I'm sure we can have a great conversation about who's career was greater.

This is a really good point. That is one of the more selective criticisms used to justify why Player A is better or worse than Player B.

All of the great players on great teams (multiple championship winners) had great teammates. Mike, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan - all of them. It's a team sport and nobody has won a handful of rings by themselves.

As for the debate, if I was starting a team and had to pick Magic or Kobe to build around, I'd take Magic. However, Kobe is going to end up with the longer and better career resume and stats. Choosing who is "better" depends what your definition of "better" is.

Note: my screename is my initials and jersey number from my fleeting basketball career, not an ode to Magic

[T-bomb 25]

You people do realise that if Kobe is a "better Laker" then he also has a better career already and is a better player than Magic? Which means Kobe is already top 2-4 greatest player of all time?

No, just no.. this is not even debatable, especially not for me who even have Magic at #1 on my top 10 list like i said on the other thread:

1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
One of my biggest problems with lists like these is that everyone and their mother puts Jordan on top of the list and shouts down everyone who has a differing opinion. MJ might be the best player ever. But in no way, shape, or form is he the hands down, undisputable number one. Which is why I submit to you, my choice: Magic Johnson.

Consider the following…Magic won his five championships during the best decade the NBA has ever seen. In addition, Magic led his team to the Finals four additional times. That’s nine Finals appearances in a 12 year career! (not including his comeback year, of course.) That’s domination from wire to wire.

And Magic achieved this greatness against far better teams than MJ faced. If you think the NBA wasn’t watered down by the expansion of the ‘90s, you’re flat out crazy. If you think any of the teams the Bulls faced in the Finals were better than the Celtics of the ‘80s, you’re flat out crazy.

In addition, Magic Johnson is often credited with the following: Resurrecting Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s career, being the best passer in NBA history, most versatile player in NBA history, redefining the point guard position and point-forward role, being the only non-center who could utterly dominate a game without scoring, and lest we forget, saving the NBA (along with Larry Bird).

Without Magic there is no MJ. There may have been a basketball player named Michael Jordan, but he wouldn’t have been the household name and global icon we know MJ as today. For that to happen, Magic had to come first. Thus he is my number one.


2.Jordan
3.Wilt
4.Bill Russell
5.Kareem
6.Bird
7.Oscar
8.Shaq
9.Duncan
10.Kobe/Hakeem/Jerry West/Julius

You could even debate that Kobe was not a better Laker than Jerry West aswell.Thats the worst list i've ever seen.:lol

[32MJ32]

Don't know what your getting at here. Kobe has had plenty of great finals games and memorable performances. The only time you can say he really "crumbled" in the finals was '04 and '08 to an extent. He gets killed for losing in the finals 2 times and labeled a choker. Magic lost in the finals 4 times, nobody regards him as a choker though, just a 5x champ. I swear Kobe is the only player that is held to such ridiculous standards.

Also I don't see your point about game 7 of last years finals. Kobe didn't have a particularity good shooting night but nobody did. It was a great defensive showing, and the reason the Lakers won was because of the team play, rebounding, and making clutch plays. It's true that Kobe had a poor shooting performance but he still contributed grabbing 15 rebounds, playing great D, and hit key free throws (7/8 from the line in the 4th quarter) and scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. Also can't forget hit a huge jumper with 3 minutes left to put the Lakers up 6 and the Celtics never had a realistic chance to get back in the game after he hit that shot. And it's not like Kobe is the only star player to have a poor shooting performance in the deciding game of the finals. I can actually name several others who have.
- Celtics assistant coach and defensive mastermind Tom Thibodeau



Doesn't matter to me anyhow . Kobe's a 5x champion. Period.

Also a really good point. People are obsessed with Kobe shooting 6-for-24. And it doesn't help its rammed down our throats by popular basketball media guys like Bill Simmons and the mopes at the sportsdesk at ESPN.

In a game where the Celtics held the Lakers to 32.5% shooting (check it out - sans Artest, who was strategically left wide open all game, nobody had a good shooting night), Kobe got to the line 15 times and scored 23 out of the team's 83 points. And his 15 boards helped the Lakers kill the C's on the glass and take an extra 12 shots in a game where no one could buy a basket - that can't be understated, and it wasn't by Tom Thibodeau.

You know what else happened? His team won the game.

You know who shot 5 for 19 in a close out game but got to the line 12 times and helped his team win anyway? Jordan in 1996 against the Sonics (R.I.P.).You know who won Finals MVP that year? Jordan (deservedly)

Paul Pierce shot for 2-for-14 in Game 2 of the 2008 Finals and still won the MVP of that series (deservedly)

People need to let 6-for-24 go. Field goal percentage is not how you should measure a good game or a good series. Kobe was the Lakers' best player in the 2009 and 2010 Finals and you'd struggle to argue otherwise (although I'm sure many will try)

[MaxFly]

Yeah, but shaq actually played in that game too. He had 36pts and 21 rebs, before fouling out (That was a weak foul on shaq btw). If shaq wasn't there I doubt the lakers would of won the game. Kobe did come through at the end though.

But Shaq had a huge impact in that game.

Bryant's impact in game 7 vs Portland that year was more impressive to me than the performance in Indiana. He lead the Lakers in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks that game. They should have lost that game and that series by right. They shouldn't have even gotten to the NBA finals.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Also a really good point. People are obsessed with Kobe shooting 6-for-24. And it doesn't help its rammed down our throats by popular basketball media guys like Bill Simmons and the mopes at the sportsdesk at ESPN.

In a game where the Celtics held the Lakers to 32.5% shooting (check it out - sans Artest, who was strategically left wide open all game, nobody had a good shooting night), Kobe got to the line 15 times and scored 23 out of the team's 83 points. And his 15 boards helped the Lakers kill the C's on the glass and take an extra 12 shots in a game where no one could buy a basket - that can't be understated, and it wasn't by Tom Thibodeau.

You know what else happened? His team won the game.

You know who shot 5 for 19 in a close out game but got to the line 12 times and helped his team win anyway? Jordan in 1996 against the Sonics (R.I.P.).You know who won Finals MVP that year? Jordan (deservedly)

Paul Pierce shot for 2-for-14 in Game 2 of the 2008 Finals and still won the MVP of that series (deservedly)

People need to let 6-for-24 go. Field goal percentage is not how you should measure a good game or a good series. Kobe was the Lakers' best player in the 2009 and 2010 Finals and you'd struggle to argue otherwise (although I'm sure many will try)

:applause:

[MaxFly]

People need to let 6-for-24 go. Field goal percentage is not how you should measure a good game or a good series. Kobe was the Lakers' best player in the 2009 and 2010 Finals and you'd struggle to argue otherwise (although I'm sure many will try)

Incidentally, a great deal of fanfare is awarded to the finals because it is the biggest stage, but let's not ignore the rest of the playoffs. Over the last three post seasons, Bryant has averaged...

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6 on 47.9% shooting
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5 on 45.7% shooting
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5 on 45.8% shooting

...throughout the playoffs. Those are excellent numbers. I'm not sure why his legacy would take a hit for 1 game, but not get a boost for the overall post season.

[tpols]

Incidentally, a great deal of fanfare is awarded to the finals because it is the biggest stage, but let's not ignore the rest of the playoffs. Over the last three post seasons, Bryant has averaged...

2007-2008: 30.1/5.7/5.6 on 47.9% shooting
2008-2009: 30.2/5.3/5.5 on 45.7% shooting
2009-2010: 29.2/6.0/5.5 on 45.8% shooting

...throughout the playoffs. Those are excellent numbers. I'm not sure why his legacy would take a hit for 1 game, but not get a boost for the overall post season.
Exactly.. kobe has played relatively well and much better than his competition in the finals, and in the other rounds of the playoffs, which are EQUALLY important, he has dominated(and for his first three titles they were cakewalk finals)... The lakers would have 1 title MAX this decade if not for kobe as he brought them to that next level through the playoffs since 2001 to the present. Most of those series against the spurs, kings, and blazers would have been Ls if not for kobe.. His career will be much better than magic johnson's by the end of it.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I think when it's all said and done Kobe will be the greatest Laker of all time in most people's minds.

(This is pure speculation) but by the time Kobe retires he very well could have:

- 7 championship titles
- 4 finals mvps
- 16-17 All Star Appearances (Barring Injury or lockout)
- Top 5 in NBA All Time Scoring List (Probably at number 4 or 3)

He's already played more minutes than other Laker, and scored more points than any other Laker and holds numerous franchise/NBA records.

These are great accomplishments and really puts Kobe in Top 5 imo if not Top 5 then Top 8 all time. But then again, some people may never rank him above Magic. Kobe is one of the most polarizing NBA players ever. There are also many NBA fans who cherish the past and the "Golden Age of Basketball". But with that being said, it's still always a matter of opinion when ranking the greatest of anything.

[ginobli2311]

I think when it's all said and done Kobe will be the greatest Laker of all time in most people's minds.

(This is pure speculation) but by the time Kobe retires he very well could have:

- 7 championship titles
- 4 finals mvps
- 16-17 All Star Appearances (Barring Injury or lockout)
- Top 5 in NBA All Time Scoring List (Probably at number 4 or 3)

He's already played more minutes than other Laker, and scored more points than any other Laker and holds numerous franchise/NBA records.

These are great accomplishments and really puts Kobe in Top 5 imo if not Top 5 then Top 8 all time. But then again, some people may never rank him above Magic. Kobe is one of the most polarizing NBA players ever. There are also many NBA fans who cherish the past and the "Golden Age of Basketball". But with that being said, it's still always a matter of opinion when ranking the greatest of anything.

that would put him higher than magic for sure.

i really hope that if kobe wins two more titles that we see some legendary finals performances. that would be awesome to see. how great would it be for kobe to just own a finals and hit a couple game winners or something. maybe this is the year.

damn...i can't wait for the playoffs.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

that would put him higher than magic for sure.

i really hope that if kobe wins two more titles that we see some legendary finals performances. that would be awesome to see. how great would it be for kobe to just own a finals and hit a couple game winners or something. maybe this is the year.

damn...i can't wait for the playoffs.

Yeah the playoffs should be interesting this year. I think there will be a lot of surprises coming.

[JellyBean]

Magic. No matter what Kobe does over the next few years, Magic will always be the greatest Laker. Magic's performance in game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals,boosted Magic among the all-time Laker greats. His leadership, style, and team first mindset, is what makes him better than Kobe.

[Ne 1]

Also a really good point. People are obsessed with Kobe shooting 6-for-24. And it doesn't help its rammed down our throats by popular basketball media guys like Bill Simmons and the mopes at the sportsdesk at ESPN.

In a game where the Celtics held the Lakers to 32.5% shooting (check it out - sans Artest, who was strategically left wide open all game, nobody had a good shooting night), Kobe got to the line 15 times and scored 23 out of the team's 83 points. And his 15 boards helped the Lakers kill the C's on the glass and take an extra 12 shots in a game where no one could buy a basket - that can't be understated, and it wasn't by Tom Thibodeau.

You know what else happened? His team won the game.

You know who shot 5 for 19 in a close out game but got to the line 12 times and helped his team win anyway? Jordan in 1996 against the Sonics (R.I.P.).You know who won Finals MVP that year? Jordan (deservedly)

Paul Pierce shot for 2-for-14 in Game 2 of the 2008 Finals and still won the MVP of that series (deservedly)

People need to let 6-for-24 go. Field goal percentage is not how you should measure a good game or a good series. Kobe was the Lakers' best player in the 2009 and 2010 Finals and you'd struggle to argue otherwise (although I'm sure many will try)

Great post.

Did Jordan shooting 5-19 in the deciding game of the '96 Finals hurt his legacy? Of course not. He won his 4th championship, and that's all people cared about. Nobody cared that Jordan went 15-35 in '97 and '98. All that mattered was that he he won 6 rings. Not to mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in '98 he went 9-25. Tim Duncan went 10-27 in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Didn't hurt his legacy. He won his 3rd championship and that's all anyone cared about. Hakeem went 10-25 in Game 7 of the '95 Finals. Only thing that mattered was the he won his 2nd championship. The deciding game of the '87 Finals Magic shot 7-21 he won his 4th championship and that's all people cared about. Bird shot 6-18 in Game 7 of the '84 Finals he won his 2nd championship and that is all that mattered.

Kobe is the only player people harp on though for some reason.

[MJ23forever]

Great post.

Did Jordan shooting 5-19 in the deciding game of the '96 Finals hurt his legacy? Of course not. He won his 4th championship, and that's all people cared about. Nobody cared that Jordan went 15-35 in '97 and '98. All that mattered was that he he won 6 rings. Not to mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in '98 he went 9-25. Tim Duncan went 10-27 in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Didn't hurt his legacy. He won his 3rd championship and that's all anyone cared about. Hakeem went 10-25 in Game 7 of the '95 Finals. Only thing that mattered was the he won his 2nd championship. The deciding game of the '87 Finals Magic shot 7-21 he won his 4th championship and that's all people cared about. Bird shot 6-18 in Game 7 of the '84 Finals he won his 2nd championship and that is all that mattered.

Kobe is the only player people harp on though for some reason.

wow crazy that i never heard about any of those games.

all I knew about is kobe performance since we are reminded by people all the time and sports writers. just tells you how much kobe is hated

[KingKobe]

magic is good and all but kobe is da best. hes ma nigg :rockon:

[D.J.]

Magic was able to have an impact on games without scoring a single point. As talented as Kobe is, he doesn't have that intangible aspect.

[ImmortalD24]

Kobe was (and is) able to have an impact on games without a single rebound or an assist. As talented as Magic is, he doesn't have that intangible aspect.

:D

[D.J.]

Kobe was (and is) able to have an impact on games without a single rebound or an assist. As talented as Magic is, he doesn't :roll: have that intangible aspect.

:D


Nice comeback. How long did it take you to come up with that one?

[StateOfMind12]

Magic was able to have an impact on games without scoring a single point. As talented as Kobe is, he doesn't have that intangible aspect.
You must have forgotten how tremendous of a defender Kobe is/was. His defense was terrific during those three-peat years with Shaq. He still has that defense, at least if you ask me. He is just conserving his energy when it matters the most, the post season.

[ImmortalD24]

Nice comeback. How long did it take you to come up with that one? I've been working on that for hours. Glad someone is noticing my fine work.

[D.J.]

You must have forgotten how tremendous of a defender Kobe is/was. His defense was terrific during those three-peat years with Shaq. He still has that defense, at least if you ask me. He is just conserving his energy when it matters the most, the post season.


That was years ago. His defense was very good during that three peat, but it's fallen off a lot over the last several years.

[StateOfMind12]

That was years ago. His defense was very good during that three peat, but it's fallen off a lot over the last several years.
It hasn't really fallen off. He just isn't playing defense on a consistent basis anymore. He was great on defense in the '08 Olympics. He still has it in him, he is just too crucial for the Lakers offense....and he doesn't have the young legs to play both ways on a consistent basis like he once did. Too much mileage on those legs. .

Plus, I think you are underrating Kobe's playmaking and rebounding abilities. It wasn't as good as Magic, but it still has a magnificent impact for his team.

[D.J.]

It hasn't really fallen off. He just isn't playing defense on a consistent basis anymore. He was great on defense in the '08 Olympics. He still has it in him, he is just too crucial for the Lakers offense....and he doesn't have the young legs to play both ways on a consistent basis like he once did. Too much mileage on those legs.


It most certainly has fallen off. His defense is no where near elite these days and his last several All-Defensive nominations are based off past reputation and not his actual play.



Plus, I think you are underrating Kobe's playmaking and rebounding abilities. It wasn't as good as Magic, but it still has a magnificent impact for his team.


His playmaking and rebounding abilities aren't underrated at all.

[G-Funk]

I think when it's all said and done Kobe will be the greatest Laker of all time in most people's minds.

(This is pure speculation) but by the time Kobe retires he very well could have:

- 7 championship titles
- 4 finals mvps
- 16-17 All Star Appearances (Barring Injury or lockout)
- Top 5 in NBA All Time Scoring List (Probably at number 4 or 3)

He's already played more minutes than other Laker, and scored more points than any other Laker and holds numerous franchise/NBA records.

These are great accomplishments and really puts Kobe in Top 5 imo if not Top 5 then Top 8 all time. But then again, some people may never rank him above Magic. Kobe is one of the most polarizing NBA players ever. There are also many NBA fans who cherish the past and the "Golden Age of Basketball". But with that being said, it's still always a matter of opinion when ranking the greatest of anything.
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/Qu3en06/UMAD.jpg


I don't think so!

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/Qu3en06/UMAD.jpg


I don't think so!

:cheers:

[Pointguard]

Also a really good point. People are obsessed with Kobe shooting 6-for-24. And it doesn't help its rammed down our throats by popular basketball media guys like Bill Simmons and the mopes at the sportsdesk at ESPN.

In a game where the Celtics held the Lakers to 32.5% shooting (check it out - sans Artest, who was strategically left wide open all game, nobody had a good shooting night), Kobe got to the line 15 times and scored 23 out of the team's 83 points. And his 15 boards helped the Lakers kill the C's on the glass and take an extra 12 shots in a game where no one could buy a basket - that can't be understated, and it wasn't by Tom Thibodeau.

You know what else happened? His team won the game.

You know who shot 5 for 19 in a close out game but got to the line 12 times and helped his team win anyway? Jordan in 1996 against the Sonics (R.I.P.).You know who won Finals MVP that year? Jordan (deservedly)

Paul Pierce shot for 2-for-14 in Game 2 of the 2008 Finals and still won the MVP of that series (deservedly)

People need to let 6-for-24 go. Field goal percentage is not how you should measure a good game or a good series. Kobe was the Lakers' best player in the 2009 and 2010 Finals and you'd struggle to argue otherwise (although I'm sure many will try)

I kind of hear you but if you are comparing Magic to Kobe, Kobe's scoring is his saving grace. Kobe scores better than Magic (tho he would rarely be responsible for more points). There isn't much else Kobe does better. If Magic is a much more efficient scorer and he definitely was in the finals, to the point that Magic is just a better scorer, then on what grounds are you upping Kobe on?

[sh0wtime]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i16/Qu3en06/UMAD.jpg


"Fiction reveals truths which Fiction obscures, reality"

[Ne 1]

I kind of hear you but if you are comparing Magic to Kobe, Kobe's scoring is his saving grace. Kobe scores better than Magic (tho he would rarely be responsible for more points). There isn't much else Kobe does better. If Magic is a much more efficient scorer and he definitely was in the finals, to the point that Magic is just a better scorer, then on what grounds are upping Kobe on?

And if you compare Kobe and Magic, Magic's passing and court vision is his saving grace.

I think Magic is currently the GOAT Laker but your reasoning is flawed. Magic also had flaws too. Was terrible defensively and couldn't guard quick point guards, 0 All defensive teams. No jump shot at all, 3 point or midrange shot.

[jlauber]

And if you compare Kobe and Magic, Magic's passing and court vision is his saving grace.

I think Magic is currently the GOAT Laker but your reasoning is flawed. Magic also had flaws too. Was terrible defensively and couldn't guard quick point guards, 0 All defensive teams. No jump shot at all, 3 point or midrange shot.

For a guy who LED the league in steals, and shot .522 over his career (and .516 in NINE Finals...which just CRUSHES Larry Bird's .455 in five Finals)...and who had two seasons of .565 and .561 shooting...I think he was a GREAT shooter and a very under-rated defender.

[jlauber]

Furthermore...take a look at Byron Scott's best FG% seasons, or Worthy's, or Kareem's, or even Divac's...among other's, and WITH Magic they all had CAREER highs, and withOUT him, some were awful.

[IGOTGAME]

For a guy who LED the league in steals, and shot .522 over his career (and .516 in NINE Finals...which just CRUSHES Larry Bird's .455 in five Finals)...and who had two seasons of .565 and .561 shooting...I think he was a GREAT shooter and a very under-rated defender.

you mean how Shaq was a great shooter?

By your logic Shaq is a much better shooter than Bird.

the insistence on fg% is absurd imo. I'm not arguing Kobe is better than Magic but your insistance on fg% makes you sound retarded.

[jlauber]

you mean how Shaq was a great shooter?

By your logic Shaq is a much better shooter than Bird.

ABSOLUTELY. I could care less about his range...he was scoring as many as 38 ppg on .611 shooting in HIS Finals. Bird never even shot 50% in ANY of his, and was as bad as .419 in one of them.

[sh0wtime]

Magic Johnson vs. Kobe... 02-10-2011 02:07 AM you're a joke

Let me get this correct, you think i'm a joke because i dont like fantasy? And please post here next time so i know how you think, dont be afraid to talk instead, its not so scary.

[jlauber]

you mean how Shaq was a great shooter?

By your logic Shaq is a much better shooter than Bird.

the insistence on fg% is absurd imo. I'm not arguing Kobe is better than Magic but your insistance on fg% makes you sound retarded.

Who was the better SHOOTER, Kerr or Jordan?

And how many scoring titles did Kerr win?

Magic could not only SCORE, he could do it EFFICIENTLY. I don't care about his shooting range. He was DOMINATING games OFFENSIVELY, and on phenomenal shooting percentages for a guard.

[Ne 1]

For a guy who LED the league in steals, and shot .522 over his career (and .516 in NINE Finals...which just CRUSHES Larry Bird's .455 in five Finals)...and who had two seasons of .565 and .561 shooting...I think he was a GREAT shooter and a very under-rated defender.


Good points.

I just think it's actually a close comparison. Have no idea why people are acting like it's not even close. Kobe's a better scorer, by far a better defensive player, and draws much more defensive attention.

Its kind of hard to compare scoring because Magic's job was to pass first and facilitate but being a better scorer is still an advantage though.

Magic was great but remembered to be better than he actually is if people believe he was untouchable.

[jlauber]

Good points.

I just think it's actually a close comparison. Have no idea why people are acting like it's not even close. Kobe's a better scorer, by far a better defensive player, and draws much more defensive attention.

Its kind of hard to compare scoring because Magic's job was to pass first and facilitate but being a better scorer is still an advantage though.

Magic was great but remembered to be better than he actually is if people believe he was untouchable.

I think Magic is arguably the second greatest "winner" in NBA history, behind Russell. In his 12 seasons, his team's averaged 59 wins per year, went to NINE Finals (75% of the time), and won FIVE of them. His WORST record was 54-28. MJ and Kareem won more rings, but their overall success ratio is considerably less than Magic's. And for those that argue that Magic played with talented teams, his last team (not counting his brief comeback in 95-96) was no longer a great team, and given the fact that they would go 43-39 after he retired, and then an even worse 39-43 the next year, gives solid evidence that they were not much more than average...which is about what they were when he joined them as a rookie.

[IGOTGAME]

Who was the better SHOOTER, Kerr or Jordan?

And how many scoring titles did Kerr win?

Magic could not only SCORE, he could do it EFFICIENTLY. I don't care about his shooting range. He was DOMINATING games OFFENSIVELY, and on phenomenal shooting percentages for a guard[/B].

Yes, Magic was very good. I just find it odd how you seem to think he was in another league then Bird when none of his people of the time felt the same way.

Contrary to your belief, basketball is not just broken down into field goal percentage. Although Bird shot a lesser percentage, his presence on the floor was no less valuable.

[IGOTGAME]

I think Magic is arguably the second greatest "winner" in NBA history, behind Russell. In his 12 seasons, his team's averaged 59 wins per year, went to NINE Finals (75% of the time), and won FIVE of them. His WORST record was 54-28. MJ and Kareem won more rings, but their overall success ratio is considerably less than Magic's. And for those that argue that Magic played with talented teams, his last team (not counting his brief comeback in 95-96) was no longer a great team, and given the fact that they would go 43-39 after he retired, and then an even worse 39-43 the next year, gives solid evidence that they were not much more than average...which is about what they were when he joined them as a rookie.

So your arguing that the Lakers were average in 1979-1980?

The year before they had the 6th best record in the league?

The year before they made it to the semi-finals?

Don't try to belittle the other Laker players to prop Magic up....

[jlauber]

Yes, Magic was very good. I just find it odd how you seem to think he was in another league then Bird when none of his people of the time felt the same way.

Contrary to your belief, basketball is not just broken down into field goal percentage. Although Bird shot a lesser percentage, his presence on the floor was no less valuable.

I ALWAYS felt that Magic was a better player than Bird, despite Bird winning more MVP's in the first half of the 80's. In fact, Magic SHOULD have won the MVP in '82. But, even beyond that, H2H, Magic was better, and in terms of overall career, Magic was better.

IMHO, Bird and Hakeem were/are two over-rated players. Bird played on stacked teams, and yet he had less team success than Magic. And his play in the post-season, and particularly in the Finals, was certainly less than Magic's. As for Hakeem, his entire career seems to be based on his two championship playoff runs. Yet, the man played on teams that had EIGHT first-round exits in 18 seasons. And, while he was certainly a great player, his regular season stats were never eye-popping.

As for Kobe, I personally have him ranked at #8, and ahead of Hakeem and Bird (9 and 10 respectively.) And Magic is #3 on my list.

[jlauber]

So your arguing that the Lakers were average in 1979-1980?

The year before they had the 6th best record in the league?

The year before they made it to the semi-finals?

Don't try to belittle the other Laker players to prop Magic up....

First of all, they weren't average in 79-80. That was Magic's rookie season, and they not only went 60-22, they won the title. HOWEVER, the two years before Magic got there, they went 45-37 and 47-35. Yes, they had talented rosters. My god, on paper they were SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Sonics...yet they were eliminated in the first round by them in 77-78, and then blown out by them in the second round in 78-79. Those Laker teams had players like Nixon, Hudson, Charlie Scott, Wilkes, and Dantley...as well as Kareem. BUT, they couldn't come close to winning titles in those years, and yet, a 44-38 Bullets team won the title in '78 and the 52-30 Sonics, with one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson) won it in '79 .

[sh0wtime]

Jlauber with some excellent points, im with you on this one obviously.

[ginobli2311]

I ALWAYS felt that Magic was a better player than Bird, despite Bird winning more MVP's in the first half of the 80's. In fact, Magic SHOULD have won the MVP in '82. But, even beyond that, H2H, Magic was better, and in terms of overall career, Magic was better.

IMHO, Bird and Hakeem were/are two over-rated players. Bird played on stacked teams, and yet he had less team success than Magic. And his play in the post-season, and particularly in the Finals, was certainly less than Magic's. As for Hakeem, his entire career seems to be based on his two championship playoff runs. Yet, the man played on teams that had EIGHT first-round exits in 18 seasons. And, while he was certainly a great player, his regular season stats were never eye-popping.

As for Kobe, I personally have him ranked at #8, and ahead of Hakeem and Bird (9 and 10 respectively.) And Magic is #3 on my list.


i've recently watched a ton of magic and bird games. i feel very comfortable saying magic was a better player.

however, i don't really agree about bird and hakeem.

bird was one of the most complete basketball players ever. maybe the most complete outside of magic. he could do everything needed. a lot of it comes to personal preference and such, but no way am i building a team around kobe before bird. same with hakeem. you knock bird for his finals play....which i think is fair, but then you turn around and say you have kobe higher. and kobe's play in the finals has been significantly worse than bird's.

hakeem i think was somewhat a victim of where he played. i tend to agree with you that maybe a little too much is made of his back to back titles. i think his help is a little under-rated, but obviously hakeem deserves a lot of credit for doing what he did. hakeem suffered through a stretch of 4 or 5 years i think with otis thorpe has his 2nd best guy. thorpe is a fine player, but its going to be hard to win in the playoffs if he's your 2nd guy and you don't have a ton of talent. don't forget that hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd year as well. hakeem for me is always really tough to rank because part of me thinks that if he played alongside another star player for the majority of his career that he could have won a handful of titles, but we'll obviously never know. but hakeem gave you like 26/11/3 with 2 steals and 3 blocks for his career in the playoffs. he could dominate on both ends.

anyway.....i totally agree with your take on magic. and a lot of what you say about bird as well. my updated rankings after watching a ton of magic/bird games on dvd recently:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. bird
7. duncan
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe

[jlauber]

i've recently watched a ton of magic and bird games. i feel very comfortable saying magic was a better player.

however, i don't really agree about bird and hakeem.

bird was one of the most complete basketball players ever. maybe the most complete outside of magic. he could do everything needed. a lot of it comes to personal preference and such, but no way am i building a team around kobe before bird. same with hakeem. you knock bird for his finals play....which i think is fair, but then you turn around and say you have kobe higher. and kobe's play in the finals has been significantly worse than bird's.

hakeem i think was somewhat a victim of where he played. i tend to agree with you that maybe a little too much is made of his back to back titles. i think his help is a little under-rated, but obviously hakeem deserves a lot of credit for doing what he did. hakeem suffered through a stretch of 4 or 5 years i think with otis thorpe has his 2nd best guy. thorpe is a fine player, but its going to be hard to win in the playoffs if he's your 2nd guy and you don't have a ton of talent. don't forget that hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd year as well. hakeem for me is always really tough to rank because part of me thinks that if he played alongside another star player for the majority of his career that he could have won a handful of titles, but we'll obviously never know. but hakeem gave you like 26/11/3 with 2 steals and 3 blocks for his career in the playoffs. he could dominate on both ends.

anyway.....i totally agree with your take on magic. and a lot of what you say about bird as well. my updated rankings after watching a ton of magic/bird games on dvd recently:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. bird
7. duncan
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe

While I don't agree with all of your rankings, they are certainly hard to argue. I used to have Kareem ahead of Wilt, but the more I have researched their careers, I just feel Chamberlain was considerably more dominant. Even late in his career, and on a surgically repaired knee, Chamberlain was generally acknowledged as outplaying Kareem. And unfortunately, we never saw a prime Wilt vs. Kareem either (although, in their one meeting before Wilt's knee injury, Chamberlain outplayed Kareem in every facet of the game.) Furthermore, Wilt took average to mediocre rosters to near series wins over the great Celtic Dynasty. And even late in his career, when he was playing on some outstanding teams, Wilt's team were still outgunned by HOFers in every post-season. Meanwhile, Kareem won ONE title before Magic, and it came in a year in which the only team that could have beaten his 66-16 Bucks, Wilt's Lakers, were without BOTH Baylor and West. And then, Kareem's Bucks beat a 42-40 Bullets team to the title. The rest of the decade of the 70's, Kareem played on 50-60+ win teams that were knocked off by lessor teams, or on loaded rosters that won 40+ games, and were eiliminated in the early rounds of the playoffs. In fact, there were several teams in the 70's that were nowhere near as talented on paper, that either beat Kareem's team's, or went on to win the title.

Furthermore, Kareem played for 20 seasons, to Wilt's 14. Yet, Kareem won two scoring titles, one rebound title, and one FG% title. Meanwhile, playing in six season's less, Chamberlain won seven scoring titles, nine FG% titles, and 11 rebounding titles. He even won an assist title. He also outvoted Kareem in the all-first team defense in his last two seasons. And, he was far more dominant in his statistical titles than Kareem was in his.

Kareem played on six title teams in 20 years, but as I have posted many times by now, Chamberlain not only anchored two title teams, he played on at least five other teams that nearly won a title. He came within a few points of beating Russell's vaunted Dynasty team in four different playoff series, and then, had his under-dog '70 Laker team not been robbed by the officials in game five of that series, his team would have won another title. And Kareem was outplayed in several of his post-seasons, while Chamberlain probably outplayed his opposing center in virtually every one of his 29 post-season series. Furthermore, Kareem had several post-seasons in which he shot under the league average, including two of .437 and .428. Not only that, there were several playoff series in which Kareem was battered on the glass by his opposing center, and in fact, Magic was a better rebounder in their post-seasons together...while Chamberlain was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his post-seasons (and only outshot, and barely, in one.)

I don't really have a problem with those that rank Bird, or even Hakeem, over Kobe. But, barring injury, Kobe will probably surpass them anyway. He was certainly a better scorer than Bird in the post-season, particularly from age 21 on..in league's that scored less, and shot worse. Hakeem only won ONE regular season MVP, and a couple of rebounding titles, in his 18 year career. Yes, he had some outstanding post-seasons, but he was also part of so many first round exits. There are those here who rip Wilt for "only" winning two rings, but the fact was, he and his team's were generally more dominant in four years less, than Hakeem's. And Chamberlain faced FAR more HOF centers in his post-season career, and far more often, too (my god, he faced Russell in 49 playoff games.)

Anyway, a very good post.

[momo]

Good to see some well thought out & researched posts n this... it looked like a bad thread on the surface.

My take is that no matter what KB does most lake fans will never rank KB over magic... not in the heart of hearts.

[colts19]

I think all this talk of Kobe being better than Magic is just silly. It's not about scoring, championships or any thing except, the eye test. If you watched them play Magic was clearly the best and it's not close.

When Kobe played with Shaq, Shaq was clearly the best player. When Magic played with Kareem, they were equal the first year, then Magic was clearly the best afterward. I understand that Kareem was getting a little past his prime at the time, but Magic was the driving force, Kobe never was.

As far as the comments about Kobe being better than Bird, please keep this in mind. Bird was a forward. Look at your top ten list and see how many forwards are on it. It is much easier for a ball dominate player like a guard to appear to be the better player. Plus the Center position is always the most important so you will always have a lot of Center's in your top ten. Kobe is not even in my top ten.

1. Wilt
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. MJ
6. Bird
7. Oscar
8. Dream
9. Dr. J
10. Duncan

I would have Shaq in there but I think they just let him get away with to many offensive charges and he never got close to his potential due to not having the killer instinct. He probably should be in top ten, I just can't put him in my list.

[Johnni Gade]

hmm, tough one

[Calabis]

Great post.

Did Jordan shooting 5-19 in the deciding game of the '96 Finals hurt his legacy? Of course not. He won his 4th championship, and that's all people cared about. Nobody cared that Jordan went 15-35 in '97 and '98. All that mattered was that he he won 6 rings. Not to mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in '98 he went 9-25. Tim Duncan went 10-27 in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Didn't hurt his legacy. He won his 3rd championship and that's all anyone cared about. Hakeem went 10-25 in Game 7 of the '95 Finals. Only thing that mattered was the he won his 2nd championship. The deciding game of the '87 Finals Magic shot 7-21 he won his 4th championship and that's all people cared about. Bird shot 6-18 in Game 7 of the '84 Finals he won his 2nd championship and that is all that mattered.

Kobe is the only player people harp on though for some reason.

The problem with your analogy is how Jordan went 15 for 35? 1998 he struggled all Game, due to Pippen being hurt(bad back), he attempted to score at a higher rate. See you failed to mention that he caught fire in the 4th quarter, putting up 16 4th quarter points and scoring all of the Bulls final 8 points over the last 2:06,...... getting the game within 1 with a heads up drive to the hoop, before Utah's "D" set, huge steal, then game winner......that's why 15-35 for 45 points didn't hurt his legacy.....it was probably the best series of clutch plays ever in the NBA Finals

1997 39pts 11 rebs 4 ast, again he struggled in the 3rd quarter, but in the fourth quarter he puts up 10 crucial points(no free throws), then draws the double team, and dishes out the game winning assist to Kerr, let's not forget that this was the Game after "The Flu Game" and he already hit a Game Winner in Game 1.....this is why his legacy was not tarnished.

1998 vs Pacers 28/9/8 again he was off, shooting was horrible, but only up 4 Pip misses free throw and Jordan gets offensive board over Smits to seal the victory also he played damn good in that entire series: 31.7PPG, 47%FG, 4ast, 5.8rebs

This is why I cannot stand Kobestans, you guys always manipulate numbers to justify a poor Kobe outing. His failure to produce in almost every 4th quarter in last year's finals series, his lack of any clutch plays/moments throughout his NBA Finals career......I don't know the context of scoring, by those other guys you mentioned, but I would hate for you to be calling out their legacies if in fact they displayed clutch play throughout the series or in the final minutes of a close game .

[Pointguard]

And if you compare Kobe and Magic, Magic's passing and court vision is his saving grace.

I think Magic is currently the GOAT Laker but your reasoning is flawed. Magic also had flaws too. Was terrible defensively and couldn't guard quick point guards, 0 All defensive teams. No jump shot at all, 3 point or midrange shot.

He definitely had flaws... but in the finals he was good defensively (not as good as Kobe) and guys six nine never guarded point guards in the history of the league. Magic was a very smart defender and he rebounded well (which is part of defense) so it made sense for him to play closer to the basket. Kobe at 6'6 rarely guarded point guards. In the finals Magic was on par with Kobe even at scoring because he was hitting shots at a much higher clip. I'm sure his 3 point shooting in the finals is at a higher clip than Kobe's too. Yeah, Kobe was more prolific in points scored, he wasn't a better shooter in the finals and he wasn't involved in as many total points as Magic was - in fact, it isn't even close.

Magic's saving grace is his ability to control tempo lead, get his team on the same page, use good great judgment, keep his teammates involved, assist, rebounds, knowing when to pass, his clutch play on all stages, inspire players to play above their game, get the crowd into it, fill in at other positions, ability to feed the post, run the best oiled offensive machine the league ever seen, hit shots at high percentage, make threes at a high percentage, shoot efficiently, step up in the finals, keep defenses on their heels, turn a defensive rebound into offense as good as any in the game, make others better... His grace was all over the place. What exactly are you vague about?

[Pointguard]

Great to see Magic in people's top three. For a while there I thought I was the only one. He had more responsibility then others on the GOAT list and he could adjust better than any of them as well. He was the consummate all around team player.

[Niquesports]

First of all, they weren't average in 79-80. That was Magic's rookie season, and they not only went 60-22, they won the title. HOWEVER, the two years before Magic got there, they went 45-37 and 47-35. Yes, they had talented rosters. My god, on paper they were SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Sonics...yet they were eliminated in the first round by them in 77-78, and then blown out by them in the second round in 78-79. Those Laker teams had players like Nixon, Hudson, Charlie Scott, Wilkes, and Dantley...as well as Kareem. BUT, they couldn't come close to winning titles in those years, and yet, a 44-38 Bullets team won the title in '78 and the 52-30 Sonics, with one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson) won it in '79 .

THe Laker pre Magic just didn't have any chemistry. That being said THat Sonics team is very underrated. No way is DJ a borderline HOF . HIs career accomplishment are far better than Mchale and Parrish not to mention a great number of other HOFer's.Second Gus Williams Jack Sikma Freddie Brown Were as good as the Billups Pistons. Well you know how I feel about the Bullets so no need to discuss.

[Niquesports]

I think all this talk of Kobe being better than Magic is just silly. It's not about scoring, championships or any thing except, the eye test. If you watched them play Magic was clearly the best and it's not close.

When Kobe played with Shaq, Shaq was clearly the best player. When Magic played with Kareem, they were equal the first year, then Magic was clearly the best afterward. I understand that Kareem was getting a little past his prime at the time, but Magic was the driving force, Kobe never was.

As far as the comments about Kobe being better than Bird, please keep this in mind. Bird was a forward. Look at your top ten list and see how many forwards are on it. It is much easier for a ball dominate player like a guard to appear to be the better player. Plus the Center position is always the most important so you will always have a lot of Center's in your top ten. Kobe is not even in my top ten.

1. Wilt
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. MJ
6. Bird
7. Oscar
8. Dream
9. Dr. J
10. Duncan

I would have Shaq in there but I think they just let him get away with to many offensive charges and he never got close to his potential due to not having the killer instinct. He probably should be in top ten, I just can't put him in my list.

I agree and disagree with you. Magic could do so many more things than Kobe. Even at Kobe's peek he needs to take all the shots sometimes ill advised shots. Magic could make Byron Scott the lakers leading scorer.

But Bird was just as a dominant with the ball. IF you have ever watched the Celtics He always touched the ball especially late in close games.
As far as Shaq. IF you ever watched him play and understand the "CHarge " call. Shaq was great at angels . He could get players on his hip which isn't a Charge more times than not its a blocking call. Just because he was too powerful for defenders shouldn't be a knock against him.

[Niquesports]

i've recently watched a ton of magic and bird games. i feel very comfortable saying magic was a better player.

however, i don't really agree about bird and hakeem.

bird was one of the most complete basketball players ever. maybe the most complete outside of magic. he could do everything needed. a lot of it comes to personal preference and such, but no way am i building a team around kobe before bird. same with hakeem. you knock bird for his finals play....which i think is fair, but then you turn around and say you have kobe higher. and kobe's play in the finals has been significantly worse than bird's.

hakeem i think was somewhat a victim of where he played. i tend to agree with you that maybe a little too much is made of his back to back titles. i think his help is a little under-rated, but obviously hakeem deserves a lot of credit for doing what he did. hakeem suffered through a stretch of 4 or 5 years i think with otis thorpe has his 2nd best guy. thorpe is a fine player, but its going to be hard to win in the playoffs if he's your 2nd guy and you don't have a ton of talent. don't forget that hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd year as well. hakeem for me is always really tough to rank because part of me thinks that if he played alongside another star player for the majority of his career that he could have won a handful of titles, but we'll obviously never know. but hakeem gave you like 26/11/3 with 2 steals and 3 blocks for his career in the playoffs. he could dominate on both ends.

anyway.....i totally agree with your take on magic. and a lot of what you say about bird as well. my updated rankings after watching a ton of magic/bird games on dvd recently:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. bird
7. duncan
8. shaq
9. hakeem
10. kobe
The big thing with Hakeem is all the other All time great at least won 1 title against their peer all time Great. Hakeem never won while JOrdan played. IT's the same thing that keeps Ewing out of any real top 20 list.

[ATL_Bball_King]

I seen a few interviews where magic himself said that Kobe is the greatest laker of all time...I dont know if he was being modest... Or what...But the way he was talking was that he actually believed it...Even the person that was interviewing him asked him was he sure...He was like there is no doubt anymore... No matter how old Jordan gets he would never say this about another player...Never...Respect to Magic...

[necya]

I seen a few interviews where magic himself said that Kobe is the greatest laker of all time...I dont know if he was being modest... Or what...But the way he was talking was that he actually believed it...Even the person that was interviewing him asked him was he sure...He was like there is no doubt anymore... No matter how old Jordan gets he would never say this about another player...Never...Respect to Magic...

it seems you never watched Magic in interview...
when he talks about a player he is always the best ever. MJ, Isiah, Bird, Hardaway.

do you really see Magic says : "oh yeah i'm the best laker ever" ? the dude shows some respect to the great at least.

[Duncan21formvp]

Who's the better Laker?


http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/kobe24.jpg


http://www.loudsportsshorts.com/basketball/players/magic_johnson.jpg


Has Kobe surpassed Magic at this point?

Magic is top 5 and Kobe from 7-10.

[G-Funk]

it seems you never watched Magic in interview...
when he talks about a player he is always the best ever. MJ, Isiah, Bird, Hardaway.

do you really see Magic says : "oh yeah i'm the best laker ever" ? the dude shows some respect to the great at least.

"The great thing about the Lakers is that we judge by championships,'' said Magic, has won a handful of rings with the Lakers. "So when Kobe gets that next one, then he'll be The Man; he'll be the greatest Laker. And I'll have no problem giving him that.''


what tittle do u think he was talking about?

[jlauber]

Great to see Magic in people's top three. For a while there I thought I was the only one. He had more responsibility then others on the GOAT list and he could adjust better than any of them as well. He was the consummate all around team player.

:cheers:

[DaHeezy]

Not only is magic greatest Laker, he's arguably the leagues greatest player.

[Basketball Dirk]

Magic is top 5 and Kobe does not make the top 10.

fixed

[Micku]

Bumping:

since Kobe is top 5 in the NBA in points scored, I figure this deserves another bump.

I think Magic Johnson is the better teamplayer and Kobe is the better individual player. I think Magic Johnson probably impact the game more because of his size and being able to control the offense while being insanely efficient.

While Magic played on a stacked team most of his career, you basically have to have a stacked team in the 80s to win a championship. It was a different time. You can argue that Magic brought the best out of those guys. While they did have the talent, Magic brought the energy, the easy looks, he made sure that they'll get theirs and Magic continued to evolve as a player on the offensive end.

Kobe evolved more as a player since his younger years, and probably the closest to MJ in terms of play styles. When Kobe is on fire, he is probably the best perimeter scorer the league has ever seen. The biggest weakness are the shot selection and sometimes he could be inconsistent.

They have similarities tho. Magic had Kareem and Kobe had Shaq. Kobe became the leader of his team later on in his career, and the same with Magic.

But Magic was more successful in his career than Kobe so far. Magic had 3 MVPs and made to the finals 9 times and won 5 rings in 12 seasons. He also had a team who is arguably the best team in NBA history.

When it comes down to it, I think Magic brought more to the table than Kobe did as the best Laker and Magic's impact might've been better than Kobe's impact on the floor. But depending on how long Kobe can keep being an elite player, then he might pass Magic. But I don't think Kobe is the best Laker yet. I think Kareem and Magic were better.

[andgar923]

I think Magic will always be seen as the GLOAT. A lot of old Laker fans don't like Kobe. This is amongst Laker fans


This is true.

Old school laker fans don't like Kobe as much and some even dislike him.

Kobe is more skilled in some aspects, but Magic is the better player bar none.

[kennethgriffin]

magic, west and shaq all said kobes the greatest laker

/thread

[Cali Syndicate]

I say Magic. Sure Kobe has a few years left in the tank but Magic did what he did in 12 seasons, not counting his comeback. While Kobe when it's all said and done will have 18/19 seasons under his belt? And to think Magic retired with at least another good 3-4 years left.

Give me Magic. Kobe would need to finish his career with a big bang to change my mind. Career milestones in points isn't enough.

[ThaRegul8r]

Magic, without question. Here's the difference between Magic and Kobe:

[quote]When I first arrived, the Lakers consisted of Kareem and eleven other guys. I accepted that, and I never tried to rock the boat. But because of Kareem, I could never really let loose on the court. [b]I always knew I was capable of more, and sometimes I was frustrated because I knew I was a better player than I was able to demonstrate. That

[tomtucker]

Kobe wins :
.
http://www.harmonart.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/condom-flush2.jpg

[Sakkreth]

It's Magic easily, not that Kobe isn't great, but Magic is top 5 ever so...

[dude77]

magic vs. kobe .. hmm .. I guess the question would be if your spot was up in the draft which would you take ? .. I'd go with Magic

[Dragonyeuw]

Two different talents, two different styles. I think the questions to ask are:

On a team with other stars, which player would maximum that team better? i.e how would the 80's Lakers be with Kobe instead of Magic?

On a team with 4 other scrubs, which team would be better off? i.e how would the 2006 Lakers with Kwame, Smush, Lamar etc be with Magic instead of Kobe?

Kobe's going to own all the Lakers records, mainly due to longevity. But take Kobe's 12 best years, let's say from 2000 to 2012, was he more impactful than Magic was from 1979-1991? Both achieved 5 titles, 3 of which they played a secondary role to a superstar center, 2 of which they were the main star. Both played in a crapload of finals, Magic played in 9 in 12 years, Kobe played in 7 in 12 years or something like that.

[inclinerator]

kobe

[OldSchoolBBall]

Two different talents, two different styles. I think the questions to ask are:

On a team with other stars, which player would maximum that team better? i.e how would the 80's Lakers be with Kobe instead of Magic?

On a team with 4 other scrubs, which team would be better off? i.e how would the 2006 Lakers with Kwame, Smush, Lamar etc be with Magic instead of Kobe?

The answer to both questions is Magic.

[Whoah10115]

Terrible that anyone has Kobe Bryant ahead of Magic Johnson. It's Magic Johnson!

[caliman]

The answer to both questions is Magic.


Agreed

[wakencdukest]

Magic was the heart and soul of the Lakers. Without Magic there would be no showtime. Kobe's great, but Magic was the best thing to ever happen to the Lakers.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe will need to get another league or finals mvp to surpass Magic.

[dyna]

Magic

[SlayerEnraged]

All Legendary Lakers say that Kobe is the best laker ever so that aught to tell you something.

[SuperPippen]

All Legendary Lakers say that Kobe is the best laker ever so that aught to tell you something.

All it tells me is that they think Kobe is the greatest Laker ever, which is a statement that I, and many others, respect, but certainly don't agree with.

[SpecialQue]

Nothing Kobe ever did, aside from maybe the 81 point game, can touch the last game in Magic's rookie year. Game 6, on the road in Philly, without the team's star (Kareem), 42 points, 14 made free throws, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, and a block, and even though Kareem deserved it, winning FMVP in his fvcking ROOKIE YEAR. Oh, and he made all of his teammates better, with Wilkes getting 37 points and 10 rebounds, Chones with 11 points and 10 rebounds, and Cooper with 16 points.

Not to mention Magic getting his team to 9 finals appearances, and winning 5 of them. As for Kareem, he wasn't in the same prime as Shaq was during the 3-peat. In terms of completely dominating his conference, has any player since Russell done that? The Lakers OWNED the West in the 80s, because of Magic.

So no. Kobe will never be better than Magic. I'm such a Magic homer that I put him above Jordan. DEAL WITH IT.

[SlayerEnraged]

All it tells me is that they think Kobe is the greatest Laker ever, which is a statement that I, and many others, respect, but certainly don't agree with.

Well not only were Magic,Shaq, Kareem, Horry, West,Fisher, etc nba players, but most of them were in ELITE status in nba history and they all played on the lakers so their background knowledge on particular lakers players is stronger that anyones. I'll take their opinions over some random dude just posting on inside hoops any day.

[wakencdukest]

Well not only were Magic,Shaq, Kareem, Horry, West,Fisher, etc nba players, but most of them were in ELITE status in nba history and they all played on the lakers so their background knowledge on particular lakers players is stronger that anyones. I'll take their opinions over some random dude just posting on inside hoops any day.


I think they are just being humble. How many superstars say outright that they were the best ever?

[SpecialQue]

I think they are just being humble. How many superstars say outright that they were the best ever?

Muhammad Ali.

[The_Yearning]

Black Mamba. Greatest Laker doesn't necessarily mean Most Valuable Laker because if that was the case, it would easily be Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

Black Mamba. Greatest Laker doesn't necessarily mean Most Valuable Laker because if that was the case, it would easily be Shaq.

Laker and overall player is different.

Magic vs Kobe as players really isn't much of a debate for me, but Magic vs Kobe as Lakers could be because of Kobe's longevity. 16 years and counting is a damn long time.

Shaq vs Kobe....same thing. Shaq was just the better player, but Kobe was definitely the better Laker....at least he is now.

[SlayerEnraged]

I think they are just being humble. How many superstars say outright that they were the best ever?

i don't know. I think we should take legendary players words over personal opinions of ISH'ers. Plus why don't they be humble and say West or Shaq or Magic is the best laker?

[bwink23]

i don't know. I think we should take legendary players words over personal opinions of ISH'ers. Plus why don't they be humble and say West or Shaq or Magic is the best laker?


Since Kobe is this legendary player and he says Jordan is the best, then maybe you should take his word for it...:eek:

[The_Yearning]

Since Kobe is this legendary player and he says Jordan is the best, then maybe you should take his word for it...:eek:

Yup... but then again Kobe's career isn't finished yet. There is a reason why MJ came back to play on the Wizards to add to his point total...

[SlayerEnraged]

Since Kobe is this legendary player and he says Jordan is the best, then maybe you should take his word for it...:eek:


He actually took that back and said no one is goat. Needless to say if he felt that way, I'd agree with him once people start taking other players words for things but untill that happens :no:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Magic Johnson

If there was a draft and you can pick any player past or present, I would take Magic on my team

[SuperPippen]

Well not only were Magic,Shaq, Kareem, Horry, West,Fisher, etc nba players, but most of them were in ELITE status in nba history and they all played on the lakers so their background knowledge on particular lakers players is stronger that anyones. I'll take their opinions over some random dude just posting on inside hoops any day.

I've got some news for you, buddy: nobody gives a ****.

You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. Go ahead and take your opinions from the source that you believe is most credible. It's not going to sway anyone else's opinion.


There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable posters on this website, and just because they didn't get to interact directly with the players that they discuss, doesn't mean I should respect their opinions any less.

BTW, that only goes for posters who have consistently demonstrated that they are knowledgeable and insightful. Not for the trolls.

[SlayerEnraged]

I've got some news for you, buddy: nobody gives a ****.

You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. Go ahead and take your opinions from the source that you believe is most credible. It's not going to sway anyone else's opinion.


There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable posters on this website, and just because they didn't get to interact directly with the players that they discuss, doesn't mean I should respect their opinions any less.

BTW, that only goes for posters who have consistently demonstrated that they are knowledgeable and insightful. Not for the trolls.

You sound :mad: :lol

Keep cryin :cry: cause real ballers all put Kobe ahead of Magic . Don't worry I'll play you a cong to cheer u up :) :violin:

[Scholar]

Making me choose between two of my favorite players of all-time is like asking me would I rather win $10 million after-taxes from the Mega Millions or $10 million after-taxes from the Super Lotto.

In the end of the day, they both played for the Los Angeles Lakers, a/k/a the GOAT NBA franchise. In the end of the day, they were both phenomenal players who made incredibly strong cases for GOAT ranking. In the end of the day, one is a prolific scorer while the other was a dominant assist-man.

I can't choose between the two. They're both two of my favorite players of all-time.

With all that said, I think Kobe had the better career, especially seeing as it's not even over yet. Magic, however, played in the more "exciting" days of basketball, back when the league didn't have clusters of super teams, imo. Sure, some teams had incredible players playing together, such as the Bird-McHale-Parish trio or Magic-KAJ-Worthy, but they all met up fairly, instead of conspiring during an off-season to form a combo. :confusedshrug:

I'm done. I won't dwell too much into this topic.
I can argue all day about any other players, but not Kobe vs Magic. It's hard to pick one over the other.

[bizil]

Whenever u have a a GOAT anything u include talent, longevity being great, numbers, solo accolades, and team accolades. In this sense Kobe I feel has passed even Magic by.

But a GOAT list also includes one more facet, a facet that is probably the most important ingredient. And that's IMPACT! Impact includes revolutionizing a position or even the sport, transcending the sport, and hell even being the face of the L. In this sense, Magic still has the edge on Kobe. Magic has all of these factors in spades. And Magic has enough of the other key GOAT ingredients to still be arguably over Kobe as well. So in this sense, I feel Magic is still the greatest Laker because of his IMPACT!

As great as Kobe is, he didn't revolutionize his position. Even though he's the second greatest SG who ever lived. Legendary SG's who revolutionized the position include MJ and Drexler (I include both together cause they were doing it at the same time), West, Gervin, Monroe, Maravich, and Thompson. Guys like Wade and Kobe are icons, but they really didn't revolutionize the position.

Kobe was never the undisputed face of the L either. MJ was the face of the L. Then Shaq (and arguably AI, even though his controversy had him half a step behind Shaq) was the face of the L. Now it is Lebron. Kobe was the best player on the planet, but was never in my mind on Shaq or even AI's level in terms on being the face. The face is a guy who does wonders on the marketing side. Or they have a certain pulse and charisma on the fans both serious and casual. And in general a guy most of the casual fans love. Kobe for some reason was never on Shaq and AI's level. He was up there, but it wasn't a triple headed monster like MJ-Magic-Bird. Sure MJ grew to be the man, but Magic and Bird were the faces and passed it to MJ while both men were still in their prime.

[Heilige]

Magic Johnson

[fpliii]

Magic, without hesitation

[Deuce Bigalow]

Magic, without hesitation
Shaq or Magic fpliii? Who do you take on your team?

[The Choken One]

As a rookie Magic filled in at center and put up arguably the greatest stat line and NBA Finals performance ever.

As big of a Kobe homer as I am, nothing Kobe could ever do will match that. That accomplishment is my #1 throughout the entire game. Nothing Jordan, KAJ, or anyone else is even close to that imo.

EDIT: Now if the Lakers were to win 1 or 2 rings in the next few years I'd label Kobe as having the greatest Laker legacy ever, but talent wise Magic is the best.

[fpliii]

Shaq or Magic fpliii? Who do you take on your team?

toss up

EDIT: Magic...5 seconds back to the basket was introduced in 01, and I don't think Shaq would be as dominant between that and the reduced touches he'd get due to the game opening up more on the perimeter (with the new hand-checking guidelines)

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'm a huge Kobe fan obviously but if I was starting a team I'd rather have Magic.

Magic controls the game so well and gets his teammates easy looks with his passing. Passing the way he does is infectious and it makes his teamates more willing to pass the ball as well. Being so tall he can rebound and start the break and he's a tough matchup for the other team. He was a great leader and a great winner. He was very smart, efficient and versatile.

It's a shame that he contracted HIV because he was still at the top of his game when he was forced to retire. His game doesn't depend on being super athletic so Magic could have played 20 years.

[SourPatchKids]

Lmao this thread...
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images2/sFi_slapfight.gif

[LongLiveTheKing]

Since Kobe is this legendary player and he says Jordan is the best, then maybe you should take his word for it...:eek:
I saw a video where Kobe said Wilt was the best, then himself, then MJ.

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe wins another championship this season, and he surpasses Magic Johnson. It is that simple. As an individual talent, i.e. overall player, Kobe Bryant has been better for a while now. As far as greatness and all time rankings are concerned, Kobe needs another ring to get himself pass Magic.

Last season, if Kobe had won another championship and repeated, he would have been considered the player of the decade. He won the championship, and now he is considered the player of the 2000s decade.
Sadly, the ship has sailed for Kobe.

I did in fact think Kobe could have surpassed Magic had he 3-peated a 2nd time with this time being the leader/best player on the 3-peat but he was completely crushed by the Mavericks in that post-season.

[The Iron Fist]

I'd like to see what Magic could do without two other HOFers on his roster or a DPOY.

I doubt he'd see the finals 9 times or even win it all for 5 of them.

But of course, context is never used here, so it is what it is.

[raprap]

Kobe will end up as the greatest Laker of all time.

[TheBigVeto]

Both are overrated but Magic is a better Laker than Kobe.

Kareem is the greatest Laker.

[Baby Arm Johnso]

IMHO, Magic is a much better team player than Kobe. If we judge greatness solely by championships then it's a tie. if we judge by career assists or triple doubles you would say Magic
Magic has 138 triple doubles and Kobe has 17 (Lebron has almost 30)
Magic has 10,141 assists to Kobe's 5,418
Magic has 17,707 career points to Kobe's 25,208
Field goal percentages Magics career was 52% verses Kobe's 45%

As a long time Laker fan I really enjoyed watching Magic play and would put him higher on my life

[lilgodfather1]

I think Magic is a better player than Kobe, and I also think he is a greater player, and a greater Laker. Kobe can surpass him though with 2 more FMVP's, and a few thousand more points (about 5).

[swag2011]

IMHO, Magic is a much better team player than Kobe. If we judge greatness solely by championships then it's a tie. if we judge by career assists or triple doubles you would say Magic
Magic has 138 triple doubles and Kobe has 17 (Lebron has almost 30)
Magic has 10,141 assists to Kobe's 5,418
Magic has 17,707 career points to Kobe's 25,208
Field goal percentages Magics career was 52% verses Kobe's 45%

As a long time Laker fan I really enjoyed watching Magic play and would put him higher on my life

I think it's obvious Magic would have the leg up on career assists, seeing how he is ya know a Point Guard. And everyone knows he was a triple double machine anyway. There are several things you can judge it by to make one player look better than the other.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I think Kobe is a better player , not interested in the legacy wars , they've had fairly equal careers.

[Baby Arm Johnso]

I think it's obvious Magic would have the leg up on career assists, seeing how he is ya know a Point Guard. And everyone knows he was a triple double machine anyway. There are several things you can judge it by to make one player look better than the other.

agreed! A good statistician can twist you around with his interpretation of the numbers.

I feel greatness in a player is the ability to make his team mates better and Magic was very good at that.

Magic and Kobe are both Champions so it's a subjective debate :)

[vert48]

Magic, easily. Magic is a top 5 player, best ever at his position. Kobe is neither.

[el gringos]

Point is you're stupid. Kobe's career is on the brink of surpassing Magic's so get over it. Don't make up excuses.

Only on ISH is Magic a bigger icon than Kobe. Kobe's known INTERNATIONALLY. Kobe is the bigger icon and it's not even close.
I know it's not worth arguing with these Kobe lovers, but this one is hilarious.

[DuMa]

Magic easily. even having a career stopped short by contracting HIV, he still reigns by being the best ever as a Laker. People forget how good he was still playing in those short comebacks from retirement. He was still the man even late in 1996 during that run.

[LeBird]

Magic fairly easily. A top 5 player - arguable GOAT. Kobe, is #10 at best. People talk about Magic's team, but don't understand the era he played in. Lots of teams were stacked, you couldn't win without having talent around you. While Kobe didn't have a team as good as Magic, he wasn't facing competition as good as that in the 80s either.

I think if you swapped them not only do the Lakers win less in the 80s, but with Magic they'd win even more in the 00s. Magic and Shaq would own and I think they wouldn't have the kind of fall-outs that Kobe and Shaq did.

[pauk]

I feel there is really nothing to debate here...

Magic...

[pauk]

IMHO, Magic is a much better team player than Kobe. If we judge greatness solely by championships then it's a tie. if we judge by career assists or triple doubles you would say Magic
Magic has 138 triple doubles and Kobe has 17 (Lebron has almost 30)
Magic has 10,141 assists to Kobe's 5,418
Magic has 17,707 career points to Kobe's 25,208
Field goal percentages Magics career was 52% verses Kobe's 45%

As a long time Laker fan I really enjoyed watching Magic play and would put him higher on my life

Lebron has actually 32 regular season triple doubles, 8 playoff triple doubles and 1 all-star triple double, total 41 triple doubles, the last one literally won him a championship.

[INDI]

Magic was the better all around player and teammate. Kobe was the better scorer and competitor. I feel they are equal in terms of greatest laker but if I had to pick one I would pick magic

The only thing working in Kobe's favor is that he has another 2-3 years left. In that time he will move up on the alltime lists most notably when he passes jordan which will take approximately two seasons. No doubt at that point he will get the most Jordan comparison that we've ever seen combined (whether warranted or not). Not to mention he is in a great position to get another 1-2 more rings.


1 ring/ no finals MVP/ does not pass Jordan on alltime list = below magic

1 ring/ finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = above magic

2 rings/ 2 finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = 3rd greatest conversation

Anything above this and he will be that undisputed second goat
1

[KOBE143]

Kobe hater and Retarded Lebrick stans - Magic
Unbiased and Knowledgeable Fan - Kobe

ISH idiot "Kobe is borderline top ten."

Magic and West "Kobe is the GOAT Lakers."
Charles Barkley "Kobe is top 5 all time."

See the difference..

[DKLaker]

Kobe hater and Retarded Lebrick stans - Magic
Unbiased and Knowledgeable Fan - Kobe

ISH idiot "Kobe is borderline top ten."

Magic and West "Kobe is the GOAT Lakers."
Charles Barkley "Kobe is top 5 all time."

See the difference..

THIS :cheers:

[Rojogaqu11]

I guess defense is sometimes valuable, sometimes it is not...

It's funny that Magic is so highly rated when Kobe Bryant has him beat not only in pure scoring ability but also effort and skill on defense.

When MJ and Magic are compared, that's usually what gives MJ the edge to end all discussions. But when Kobe's defense is mentioned, it becomes an afterthought, as if his defensive credentials are undeserving because ISH says so, so it must be true.

Kobe has Laker's scoring record, playoff game record, etc. etc. many Laker records.

Magic and Jerry West will concede that Kobe is the greatest Laker.

So, I'm not saying Magic cannot be the greatest, I'm only saying that it is very arguable, and no one should make it seem like a laughable or offensive idea.

[Boogey]

Intangibles are overweighed here. When it comes to putting the damn ball in the hole, it's easily Kobe

[ZaaaaaH]

Lebron has actually 32 regular season triple doubles, 8 playoff triple doubles and 1 all-star triple double, total 41 triple doubles, the last one literally won him a championship.


Last time I checked you play to WIN the game, not go for Tripple doubles. :facepalm

I know you LeBron fans love to ****, Suck, and Swallow man Its like a Tripple Double!

[LakersReign]

I guess defense is sometimes valuable, sometimes it is not...

It's funny that Magic is so highly rated when Kobe Bryant has him beat not only in pure scoring ability but also effort and skill on defense.

When MJ and Magic are compared, that's usually what gives MJ the edge to end all discussions. But when Kobe's defense is mentioned, it becomes an afterthought, as if his defensive credentials are undeserving because ISH says so, so it must be true.

Kobe has Laker's scoring record, playoff game record, etc. etc. many Laker records.

Magic and Jerry West will concede that Kobe is the greatest Laker.

So, I'm not saying Magic cannot be the greatest, I'm only saying that it is very arguable, and no one should make it seem like a laughable or offensive idea.

Anybody who does that is a moron to begin with, who has no real love or knowledge of the game. Whether you're a Kobe fan or not, if you claim to understand the game, then it's automatic that you should also be able to give him his due. It's hilarious as **** watching them trying to discredit the opinions, of coaches/players/former players/GM's/sports writers, when it comes to giving Kobe credit for anything. Like they know more about the game, than these people do. Yet more reason not to take anything they say seriously.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Well its not even close. Kobe never was, and never will be a greater than Magic Johnson, no matter whether it is for all-time players ranking or all-time Lakers.

[bizil]

When it comes to the perimeter guys, I think MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Bron, and Big O are the top six peak value wise ever. And with Bron's rise up the GOAT charts, they are arguably the top six GOAT perimeter players ever. I think what hurts Magic in comparison to Kobe is indeed the defensive side of the ball. That is the main difference in my book. If u are doing a blind resume, Kobe's is on the level on Magic's in terms of accolades.

In terms of numbers, Magic was a PG and Kobe a SG. So the scoring averages and career points should of course lean to Kobe. But Magic was more versatile on offense, was a better passer, a better rebounder, and redefined the game more than Kobe. Magic was also the face of the L until MJ got the ball rolling. And even when MJ was the face, Magic was still viewed as the co-face. MJ didn't really push Magic to the background.

In terms of GOAT status, Kobe could very well pass Magic by before its all said and done. In terms of peak value or better player its damn close. But when u have guys like MJ, Kobe, or Bron, u get:

Great scoring
Great passing
Great rebounding (relative for their position)
Great defense

With guys like Magic or Bird u get the first three and there is a big dropoff in terms of defense. So peak value wise, I'm gonna lean slightly to Kobe. But if someone picked Magic, I wouldn't complain one bit. If Bird and Magic had close to the defensive capabilities of MJ, Kobe, or Bron, I would take them over those three. That's why its interesting watching Bron. It's the closest vision of seeing a freak athletic and great defender version of Magic Johnson. Now i just wanna see a freak athletic-great defending vision of Larry Bird!

[funnystuff]

Magic was the better all around player and teammate. Kobe was the better scorer and competitor. I feel they are equal in terms of greatest laker but if I had to pick one I would pick magic

The only thing working in Kobe's favor is that he has another 2-3 years left. In that time he will move up on the alltime lists most notably when he passes jordan which will take approximately two seasons. No doubt at that point he will get the most Jordan comparison that we've ever seen combined (whether warranted or not). Not to mention he is in a great position to get another 1-2 more rings.


1 ring/ no finals MVP/ does not pass Jordan on alltime list = below magic

1 ring/ finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = above magic

2 rings/ 2 finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = 3rd greatest conversation

Anything above this and he will be that undisputed second goat
1
:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/internet-memes-haters-gon-snow.gif

sorry haters...Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest Laker of alltime.

- unlike 90% of the kabe haters here..I watched Magic's whole career...

in fact I would rather watch Magic play more then watching Kobe ( Just as long as it was against Bird's Celtics)

- But Kobe will go down as the greatest Laker ever....and when he retires it won't even be close.

- heck nearly all the Laker greats already said this..."Kobe is the geratest Laker ever"

- only biased haters would say Kobe only won because his teams were stacked...then use Magic winning and Passing in the next sentence.

:rolleyes:

[KyrieTheFuture]

I believe Magic is the greatest but Kobe will be considered the greatest which is fine. It's not like he's undeserving of such praise it's quite a small margin between them IMO. I just value sick passes over sick shots so to me, Magic is better.

[JohnnySic]

Magic was better. Kobe was getting close but the Mavericks and Thunder kicked him out of the house.

[christian1923]

If Magic thinks Kobe's the greatest laker, why should anyone think any different.

[KG215]

Magic was the better all around player and teammate. Kobe was the better scorer and competitor. I feel they are equal in terms of greatest laker but if I had to pick one I would pick magic

The only thing working in Kobe's favor is that he has another 2-3 years left. In that time he will move up on the alltime lists most notably when he passes jordan which will take approximately two seasons. No doubt at that point he will get the most Jordan comparison that we've ever seen combined (whether warranted or not). Not to mention he is in a great position to get another 1-2 more rings.


1 ring/ no finals MVP/ does not pass Jordan on alltime list = below magic

1 ring/ finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = above magic

2 rings/ 2 finals MVP/ passes Jordan on alltime list = 3rd greatest conversation

Anything above this and he will be that undisputed second goat
1

Thanks for that laugh. Keep trying.

How does Kobe pass Jordan with one more ring and Finals MVP? At that point they'd be tied with six rings but Jordan would have a 6-3 edge in Finals MVPs. Never mind that what Jordan did in the first 3-peat shits all over any playoff run Kobe has ever had. Jordan also has a 5-1 edge in regular season MVPs.

[KG215]

If Magic thinks Kobe's the greatest laker, why should anyone think any different.

You're right. It probably had nothing to do with Magic knowing how conceited it would look if he said himself.

[DatAsh]

Thanks for that laugh. Keep trying.

How does Kobe pass Jordan with one more ring and Finals MVP? At that point they'd be tied with six rings but Jordan would have a 6-3 edge in Finals MVPs. Never mind that what Jordan did in the first 3-peat shits all over any playoff run Kobe has ever had. Jordan also has a 5-1 edge in regular season MVPs.

I didn't read it like that. I read it as "If Kobe gets one more ring, one more finals mvp, and passes Jordan on the all time scoring list, then he will move past Magic as the greatest Laker".

[atljonesbro]

It's clearly Kobe. Magic has a HUGE advantage comparison wise because he was in the "golden era" so will get bias selections due to the "golden era" pedestal. There will never be a fair comparison between past and present players due to pedestals. Even MAGIC HIMSELF said Kobe is GOAT Laker

[Kovach]

It's clearly Kobe.
No, it's clearly debatable.

Magic has a HUGE advantage comparison wise because he was in the "golden era" so will get bias selections due to the "golden era" pedestal. There will never be a fair comparison between past and present players due to pedestals.
Similarly to how the opposing side also makes biased judgments due to the fact that they have zero knowledge about the "golden era?"

[magictricked]

If you go strictly by production Kobe is the greatest Laker

If you stir in a portion nostalgia for the golden age of the NBA then it's Magic.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI

The only thing Kobe has on Magic is longevity. As a coach, or teammate, or even as a fan - no matter what angle I look at this from i'd want MAGIC on my team over Kobe any day. If the Lakers drafted a clone of Magic Johnson tomorrow and Kobe simultaneously got a career ending injury ratings of the Lakers wouldn't go down - they'd skyrocket. The teams odds of winning the finals would increase as well. Kobe has a very vocal and very easily butthurt cult-like following but Magic is definitely the better Laker.

[G.O.A.T]

2. Kobe is always criticized for "riding Shaq's coattail" or having a stacked team. Magic had teams just as stacked and also played with Kareem who is a greater Center than Shaq. Most people think Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic. Dude was 28 when he first started and didn't significantly decline until he was 38. Magic and Bird are almost never criticized for their quality of teammates while Kobe is.

A few factual errors here.

1) The Kareem Magic played with was only on 2000-2002 Shaq's level for one season, 1980.

2) Kareem was 32 when he played his first game with Magic, not 28. He was 33 by the time the 1980 Finals started.

And a note on something I think you're interpreting wrong.

I din't think many people think it's a valid criticism to say that Kobe played with great players, I think the distinction is that for the first three titles Shaq was clearly a better player than Kobe and by far the Lakers most important player. Whereas Magic and Kareem were essentially debatable in terms of those things from 1982 on until Kareems accepting a smaller role following the '86 playoffs loss.

[bukowski81]

Magic is the greatest Laker and Kobe won't catch him.

Magic was a leader from day ONE. According to Phil, Kobe didn't have good leadership qualities until he was in his 12th season. Actually this whole thing isn't even debatable, Magic's leadership is the best in the history of basketball imo. It's something Kobe has always struggled with.

Magic made ALL of his teammates better and the fact that 6'9" could bring the ball up, so versatile. It's not even a debate imo. Magic >>> Kobe. It's not even a debate.

There will never ever be another player like Magic Johnson. If you weren't around to watch him, you just missed out. Youtube highlights just don't do him justice, he was a floor general, a master of basketball with an INSANE level of ball IQ. He ALWAYS knew what to do and what the right play was. He was always talking basically controlling all the players, he was a coach on the floor.

You've got to remember what the old #8 used to play like. He didn't follow the system well, he was a selfish player and wasn't a good teammate. It's a shame it took him so long to understand things better because his skills are in the top 10-15 in NBA history.

I agree, most people on this board dont seem to understand things like this, everything is about statistics here...

[AlphaWolf24]

A few factual errors here.

1) The Kareem Magic played with was only on 2000-2002 Shaq's level for one season, 1980.

2) Kareem was 32 when he played his first game with Magic, not 28. He was 33 by the time the 1980 Finals started.

And a note on something I think you're interpreting wrong.

I din't think many people think it's a valid criticism to say that Kobe played with great players, I think the distinction is that for the first three titles Shaq was clearly a better player than Kobe and by far the Lakers most important player. Whereas Magic and Kareem were essentially debatable in terms of those things from 1982 on until Kareems accepting a smaller role following the '86 playoffs loss.


2000 was the last year Shaq was "clearly" better ...by 2001 is was always contrasting as to who was better and who was most important..

and rightfully so.

- as I have shown many times here...the mindset of most fans ( posting numerous articles from this very website in 2001 , and ESPN calling Kobe the best player in the NBA at 22 years old in 01')

by 2001 Kobe was arguably the best overall player in the NBA and LA's most valuable/dangerous player.

[Optimus Prime]

Close call, but I would say Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time. Considering that MAGIC himself said this, that is the deciding factor for me.

BTW, what is the deal with ancient threads being bumped lately? :hammerhead:

:kobe: