Lebron vs Kobe Playoff Game Winners

[ginobli2311]

http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

kobe is 6-22 27.3% for his career in the playoffs
lebron is 5-9 55.5% for his career in the playoffs

who's the better playoff game winning shot performer?

ROFL

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[N0Skillz]

http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

kobe is 6-22 27.2% for his career in the playoffs
lebron is 5-9 55.5% for his career in the playoffs

who's the better playoff game winning shot performer?

ROFL

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



Can you get the stats for how many finals elimination games each has won?

[chazzy]

Another bait thread, gonna end up 12+ pages filled with ginobli and Hogan back and forths :sleeping

[TryToBeUnbias]

Bi-Polar

Reminds of the movie Me Myself and Irene

[ginobli2311]

Another bait thread, gonna end up 12+ pages filled with ginobli and Hogan back and forths :sleeping

this will be my last post in the thread. just keeping it real. got to bring the stans back to reality.

in b4 ring count argument.
:roll: :roll:

[Career .557 TS%]

lebron will miss his next 14. book it.

[N0Skillz]

Guys DO NOT HATE I HEARD GINOBLI Was In An Accident And He Lost His Sensitive Areas.


I Repeat He Is Missing His Man Parts. Do Not Hate And Lets Hope Him The Best.

[Celtics_18]

Is it bad that any time I see these so called "clutch statistics" i completely disregard them as if its a Hollinger article?

[ImaBigDawg]

this is also becuase Lebron passes up the big shot all the time, hence why he's still yet to win an NBA finals game. Kobe's not afraid to fail, thats why he has succeeded.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron passes up the big shot? If hes taken 9 game winners in 72 playoff games and Kobe has taken 22 in 198 they take them at about the same rate.

[RazorBaLade]

On that website for some reason I see a chart of Kobe's shots and misses, but not Lebrons. Can anyone please tell me why that is? Does anyone here think lebron has 5 game winners in the playoffs? I can't really remember more than 5 or 7 game winners he's had including the regular season......
not trying to come off as a stan, just interested in some proof. also missing a game tying shot isnt exactly missing a game winner...

[Lebron23]

Lebron passes up the big shot? If hes taken 9 game winners in 72 playoff games and Kobe has taken 22 in 198 they take them at about the same rate.


This

[Kblaze8855]

On that website for some reason I see a chart of Kobe's shots and misses, but not Lebrons. Can anyone please tell me why that is? Does anyone here think lebron has 5 game winners in the playoffs? I can't really remember more than 5 or 7 game winners he's had including the regular season......
not trying to come off as a stan, just interested in some proof. also missing a game tying shot isnt exactly missing a game winner...

Off the top of my head I guess its...

When he traveled and won it vs the Wizards

That quick layup to beat the Wizards.

When he drove and scored on the Pistons that game he had 30 points in a row in the 4th.

The GW 3 vs the Magic...

Cant think of the last one.

[RazorBaLade]

Lebron passes up the big shot? If hes taken 9 game winners in 72 playoff games and Kobe has taken 22 in 198 they take them at about the same rate.

that totally ignores opportunities which is what hes talking about lol

[RazorBaLade]

Off the top of my head I guess its...

When he traveled and won it vs the Wizards

That quick layup to beat the Wizards.

When he drove and scored on the Pistons that game he had 30 points in a row in the 4th.

The GW 3 vs the Magic...

Cant think of the last one.

ah nice thx. perhaps its kobes ability to do it from anywhere that leads fans to say hes the best rather than be amazed by gw layups... but both win the game i guess haha.. dont see how this stat really negates what kobe does in any way

gino just needs to meet his kobe hatred for the month really wuickly, i assume he will be normal in a week or so until next month again.,

[donald_trump]

that totally ignores opportunities which is what hes talking about lol

so you can honestly sit there and tell me you know the exact amount of opportunities each has had in the playoffs? :oldlol:

get real.

[RazorBaLade]

so you can honestly sit there and tell me you know the exact amount of opportunities each has had in the playoffs? :oldlol:

get real.

of course not, just saying that shots attempted doesnt disprove the original posters theory of lebron passing up a lot of them. which of course hold some truth but i have no problem saying bron has been clutch in the post season aside from the quitting games. doesnt make me think any less of what kobes done in poffs clutchness.

[che guevara]

On that website for some reason I see a chart of Kobe's shots and misses, but not Lebrons. Can anyone please tell me why that is? Does anyone here think lebron has 5 game winners in the playoffs? I can't really remember more than 5 or 7 game winners he's had including the regular season......
not trying to come off as a stan, just interested in some proof. also missing a game tying shot isnt exactly missing a game winner...
Game winning layup (and travel) vs. the Wizards in G3 2006
Game winning drive/layup vs. Wizards G5 2006
Game tying dunk vs. Pistons in 2007, G5 with 9 seconds left
Game winning layup vs. Pistons 2007 G5
Three vs. Magic 2009

[Kblaze8855]

I really cant think of a 5th one for Lebron. Im not doubting that it exists...im just saying I cant remember it. Its not the kind of thing I usually forget. What is it some random layup with 38 seconds left vs the Hawks or something that nobody cared about?

[G-Funk]

anyone who thinks Lebron is more cltuch than Kobe is stupid as shyt

[knightfall88]

You miss 100% of the shots you dont take. Lebron is a quiter.

[Career .557 TS%]

anyone who thinks Lebron is more cltuch than Kobe is stupid as shyt
this.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh it counts that dunk he had before the layup to beat the Pistons? If he took a shot after it for the win im not seeing how it even counts as a game winner.

Its a big shot no doubt but...its like counting that shot Kobe hit with a few seconds to go before Duncan hit that floater...and then Fisher hit the .4 shot.

If your team goes on to hit a GW....after your shot...how was your first one a GW?

Is it just a list of big shots in the playoffs? If so I find it unlikely Kobe only has 6 in his career.

[RazorBaLade]

Game winning layup (and travel) vs. the Wizards in G3 2006
Game winning drive/layup vs. Wizards G5 2006
Game tying dunk vs. Pistons in 2007, G5 with 9 seconds left
Game winning layup vs. Pistons 2007 G5
Three vs. Magic 2009

I feel like lebron fans have a lot more to harp on about before bringing up game winning layups to prove a point, thats just me I mean as a lebron fan I'm sure I could make a better base for his clutchness or at least avoid the subject and concede for now before I'd boast about 4 layups, 1 that shouldn't have counted.. I dunno.

I'd also like to take away all the game tying stuff for kobe and brons misses (although the article doesnt have anything about that...), see where that leaves us.

Blaze yea thats weird as hell for them to include that then.. But anyways I have a pretty poor game winner memory lol, I only remember kobe vs phx and kobe vs det.

[che guevara]

Oh it counts that dunk he had before the layup to beat the Pistons? If he took a shot after it for the win im not seeing how it even counts as a game winner.

Its a big shot no doubt but...its like counting that shot Kobe hit with a few seconds to go before Duncan hit that floater...and then Fisher hit the .4 shot.

If your team goes on to hit a GW....after your shot...how was your first one a GW?

Is it just a list of big shots in the playoffs? If so I find it unlikely Kobe only has 6 in his career.
It was this one right after Billups hit a three to put the Pistons up 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzsAi1a1rog#t=3m55s


I feel like lebron fans have a lot more to harp on about before bringing up game winning layups to prove a point, thats just me I mean as a lebron fan I'm sure I could make a better base for his clutchness or at least avoid the subject and concede for now before I'd boast about 4 layups, 1 that shouldn't have counted.. I dunno.

I'd also like to take away all the game tying stuff for kobe and brons misses (although the article doesnt have anything about that...), see where that leaves us.

Blaze yea thats weird as hell for them to include that then.. But anyways I have a pretty poor game winner memory lol, I only remember kobe vs phx and kobe vs det.
Isn't the point to get the best possible shot? Why settle for a jumper if you can get a layup? Yeah, one of them shouldn't have counted, but neither should Reggie's game tying 3 vs. the Nets that one year and I'm sure plenty of others have had violations as well.

[Tha Catalyst]

Oh it counts that dunk he had before the layup to beat the Pistons? If he took a shot after it for the win im not seeing how it even counts as a game winner.

Its a big shot no doubt but...its like counting that shot Kobe hit with a few seconds to go before Duncan hit that floater...and then Fisher hit the .4 shot.

If your team goes on to hit a GW....after your shot...how was your first one a GW?

Is it just a list of big shots in the playoffs? If so I find it unlikely Kobe only has 6 in his career.
Yeah doesn't really seem right does it? I think if that's the criteria Kobe would have many more misses and many more makes considering his playoff experience.

[RazorBaLade]

Stop it. Wait.

There's a little too much rational unbiased conversation going on in this thread, gino bron23 or someone needs to get in here and bring it down to the normal ISH levels.

[Kblaze8855]

I remember it well. Im just not sure how it counts as a game winner. How do you count 2 shots from the same game as the game winner?

[che guevara]

I remember it well. Im just not sure how it counts as a game winner. How do you count 2 shots from the same game as the game winner?
Well, the criteria is any shot made in the last 24 seconds with your team down 2, 1 or tied. Kobe has two from the same game as well, that ridiculous floater vs. the Suns is in there.

[Kblaze8855]

Anyone remember the Magic/Pacers game where like...Nick Anderson hit a 3, then Reggie hit a 3, then Penny hit a shot, then Smits won it at the buzzer all in about 10 seconds? Would this list count that game as having 4 game winners?

[Kblaze8855]

Ah...so Larry Johnsons 4 point play doesnt count? And a floater to force OT counts...but not say...a 3 to force OT? Or does any shot that ties it count?

[New York Knicks]

It only counts if it favors Kobe.

[che guevara]

Ah...so Larry Johnsons 4 point play doesnt count? And a floater to force OT counts...but not say...a 3 to force OT? Or does any shot that ties it count?
That would count as a game winner, they include Kobe's game tying three vs. the 2004 Pistons.

About your last post, it would count as 4 game winners, the thought being that the player can't control if the other team makes a shot after you make yours, like if Billups happened to hit that shot at the Buzzer in game 5. So it's not truly a "game winner" list, it's just a list of shots made in the last 24 seconds that tie or put your team in the lead.

[Poochymama]

Yeah doesn't really seem right does it? I think if that's the criteria Kobe would have many more misses and many more makes considering his playoff experience.

No, because they use the same criteria for both players. Kobe's would actually go down as well. I know Kobe had at least one like this that is included in the 6 so his would drop to at least 5.

And as far as the thread is concerned, yea Lebron has been much better than Kobe in last second shot opportunities in the playoffs. Facts are facts.

Kobe attempted 22 GW in 198 games or a GW about every 9 games.

Lebron attempted 9 GW in 72 games or a GW about every 8 games.

As you can see, both players take GW shots at about the same rate, if anything Lebron actually takes them slightly more often(so the argument that he is passing up GW doesn't work). Lebron is simply much more efficient game winning shot taker in the playoffs than Kobe, no matter how you spin it. Another way to look at it is Lebron attempts a GW roughly every 8 games and makes a GW roughly every 16 games. Kobe takes a GW roughly every 9 games and makes a GW roughly every 36 games. So while both Lebron and Kobe take GW at about the same rate, Lebron hits them about twice as often.

That being said, the ability to hit a GW shot does not define clutch play, in fact, GW shots are actually quite rare, and as such, a very small part of clutch play. Lebron may be a better GW shot maker in the playoffs, but is he a better clutch player? I think most people would say not.

[Doranku]

:oldlol: @ crediting LeBron with two game winners for one game. :roll:

Two were travels, one was a lay-up on a complete breakdown and failure to rotate by the Detroit defense, and one was a lucky three which had no business going in and only served to save the Cavs from getting swept.

Not impressed.

[ginobli2311]

for those asking about lebron.

the writer of the article said the following in a comment post:

[I]Hi John. Thanks for your comments and great suggestion.

I am planning to write a future post regarding Game winning/ Game tying Playoff shots for all of the star players that you mentioned plus more. In the interim, I have been able to validate that Lebron is 5/9 in the playoffs

[opps]

http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

kobe is 6-22 27.3% for his career in the playoffs
lebron is 5-9 55.5% for his career in the playoffs

who's the better playoff game winning shot performer?

ROFL

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84&feature=related

This over anything Lebron as done in the playoffs & this isnt even Kobe's best one. And how is Lebron the better playoff performer when his performance as got in him 0 rings & Kobe's has got him 5 :confusedshrug:

[Nash-tastic]

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]for those asking about lebron.

the writer of the article said the following in a comment post:

[I]Hi John. Thanks for your comments and great suggestion.

I am planning to write a future post regarding Game winning/ Game tying Playoff shots for all of the star players that you mentioned plus more. In the interim, I have been able to validate that Lebron is 5/9 in the playoffs

[Doranku]

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]for those asking about lebron.

the writer of the article said the following in a comment post:

[I]Hi John. Thanks for your comments and great suggestion.

I am planning to write a future post regarding Game winning/ Game tying Playoff shots for all of the star players that you mentioned plus more. In the interim, I have been able to validate that Lebron is 5/9 in the playoffs

[Doranku]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: @ this article.

BLATANTLY fabricating stats. I take a two second glance at the list and already find lies.

2002 Sacramento Kings Game 7 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 8 seconds left
2002 Sacramento Kings Game 7 Miss Bryant misses a game winning tip shot with 8 seconds left

I see this and I think, hmm, how does Kobe manage to miss two shots in the same second? :oldlol: So I go to the film...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMV5o0OUwLo

Start at the 8 minute mark. Not only does the first "miss" by Kobe not even exist considering Shaq took the shot, there were 3 hands on that tipped ball. Did that even get credited to Kobe as a shot? :oldlol:

[sh0wtime]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84&feature=related

This over anything Lebron as done in the playoffs & this isnt even Kobe's best one. And how is Lebron the better playoff performer when his performance as got in him 0 rings & Kobe's has got him 5 :confusedshrug:

Because a championship is a team accomplishment?
Because this is not a 1 on 5 game?
Because not even Michael Jordan could win a championship by himself?
Because even if you average a 50 quadruple double you wont win if you dont have the required teammates, coach?
Hence why not even the most clutch playoff performers ever (like Reggie Miller) could not win it?
Because Kobe has played 7-8 more years than Lebron and was blessed with the greatest team in the NBA so early?
Because Lebron has up to around 14 more years to get a ring?
:confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

Yeeeeeeeeea...he had nothing to do with the first miss and nobody being fair would count the second as a missed tip. Shit like that that makes you not even care about such lists. If you set out to prove a point you can call a lot of things facts because most just arent gonna check.

[Harion]

If your team goes on to hit a GW....after your shot...how was your first one a GW?
they really need to fix the criteria for counting GWs. IMO, only the last "go-ahead" shot after a tied score or your team behind by 1 or 2 should count. game tying shots should be counted separately and not be called game winners but only game tying shots. that should fix all these padded GW shots and give us a correct picture of who is the true clutch player which without a doubt i would guess to be MJ.

edit: also, they need to separate regular season GWs from playoff GWs. this way, we would also see who is just a regular season clutch player vs a playoff clutch performer. which i would also guess, would still be MJ :lol

[madmax]

Because a championship is a team accomplishment?
Because this is not a 1 on 5 game?
Because not even Michael Jordan could win a championship by himself?
Because even if you average a 50 quadruple double you wont win if you dont have the required teammates, coach?
Hence why not even the most clutch playoff performers ever (like Reggie Miller) could not win it?
Because Kobe has played 7-8 more years than Lebron and was blessed with the greatest team in the NBA so early?
:confusedshrug:

I always wondered what team accomplishments got to do with which player is better than the other? Should Lebron be penalized for not having the stacked team all those years? Maybe it's an american way of thinking that Rings >>> Everything else, but I just can't get my head arround why team accolades should be brought up in player comparison threads..

[Doranku]

Yeeeeeeeeea...he had nothing to do with the first miss and nobody being fair would count the second as a missed tip. Shit like that that makes you not even care about such lists. If you set out to prove a point you can call a lot of things facts because most just arent gonna check.

Yeah, I haven't even made it halfway through the list and nearly all of it is wrong. Kobe's "miss" against the 76ers was a TO, and the two Minnesota misses are completely bogus as well. As per ESPN:

The Timberwolves appeared to have the game wrapped up after Hudson made two free throws with 22.8 seconds left in the fourth quarter, giving them a 101-96 lead.

But Bryant made a 3-pointer five seconds later, was fouled by Szczerbiak on another questionable call and completed the four-point play to cut Minnesota's lead to one.

The Timberwolves committed a turnover trying to inbound the ball, and Bryant was fouled by Rasho Nesterovic -- who was standing still with his hands straight up -- on a drive to the basket with 12.1 seconds to play. It was Nesterovic's sixth foul.

Bryant missed the first foul shot but made the second, tying the game at 101. Hudson's long jumper as time expired didn't come close, sending the game to overtime.

[sh0wtime]

I always wondered what team accomplishments got to do with which player is better than the other? Should Lebron be penalized for not having the stacked team all those years? Maybe it's an american way of thinking that Rings >>> Everything else, but I just can't get my head arround why team accolades should be brought up in player comparison threads..

I think rings is a perfect criteria when comparing players careers only, its an icing on top of your cake afterall. But only at the end of their career or near the end. To early just doesnt make sense to compare a 20 year old to a 30 year old, like so many Kobe fans like to do, like if Shaqs, Duncans, Kobes best amount of rings still says that they are the best players in the NBA at this moment? No...

But what most people do wrong is only look at the rings, compare the amount of rings. The whole point of bringing up rings when comparing players career is to figure out what kindof team, role & impact he had and what he did to get each and every ring, was he a sidekick, a bench warmer, the go to guy, the best player on his team or just have been lucky to be blessed with super teammates most of his career? You want to valuate the rings he had in order to value his greatness.

1 ring of bigger value > 2 rings of lesser value

[Doranku]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: @ this article.

BLATANTLY fabricating stats. I take a two second glance at the list and already find lies.

2002 Sacramento Kings Game 7 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 8 seconds left
2002 Sacramento Kings Game 7 Miss Bryant misses a game winning tip shot with 8 seconds left

I see this and I think, hmm, how does Kobe manage to miss two shots in the same second? :oldlol: So I go to the film...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMV5o0OUwLo

Start at the 8 minute mark. Not only does the first "miss" by Kobe not even exist considering Shaq took the shot, there were 3 hands on that tipped ball. Did that even get credited to Kobe as a shot? :oldlol:

Just bumping this since ginobli is trying to let the thread die after being exposed. :lol

[Javat_90]

Damn, the retarded schitzophrenic with the panda kung-fu avy never gets tired of getting pwned.


Pwned copter.

[dutchguy]

Because a championship is a team accomplishment?
Because this is not a 1 on 5 game?
Because not even Michael Jordan could win a championship by himself?
Because even if you average a 50 quadruple double you wont win if you dont have the required teammates, coach?
Hence why not even the most clutch playoff performers ever (like Reggie Miller) could not win it?
Because Kobe has played 7-8 more years than Lebron and was blessed with the greatest team in the NBA so early?
Because Lebron has up to around 14 more years to get a ring?
:confusedshrug:
:applause:

[Jacks3]

lol @ ginobili. clown. :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

Just bumping this since ginobli is trying to let the thread die after being exposed. :lol
what?

i didn't write the article.

lets say you are correct and that kobe is 6 of 18.

is that better than 5 of 9?

LOL....kobe stans getting owned as usual.

[jaydacris]

who plays better vs the spurs? ... :D

[Javat_90]

what?

i didn't write the article.

lets say you are correct and that kobe is 6 of 18.

is that better than 5 of 9?

LOL....kobe stans getting owned as usual.

This is a classic syntom of severe shitzophrenia.

No brother, you`re the one getting owned. Dont try to turn this shit upside down, the joke is on you.

Deal with it.

[Doranku]

what?

i didn't write the article.

lets say you are correct and that kobe is 6 of 18.

is that better than 5 of 9?

LOL....kobe stans getting owned as usual.

"let's say I am correct"? I just PROVED I was correct. :oldlol:

And I couldn't even find a few of those games on youtube/ESPN, so there's probably a few more in there that didn't happen.

And the dude didn't even PROVIDE evidence for LeBron's. If he couldn't even provide more fake evidence, I hate to see how far off that percentage actually is from reality. :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

"let's say I am correct"? I just PROVED I was correct. :oldlol:

And I couldn't even find a few of those games on youtube/ESPN, so there's probably a few more in there that didn't happen.

And the dude didn't even PROVIDE evidence for LeBron's. If he couldn't even provide more fake evidence, I hate to see how far off that percentage actually is from reality. :oldlol:

i just checked the website and the guy said the intial shot in the kings game 7 was a typo and should have been a game 4 missed layup. which if memory serves kobe did miss that layup before horry made the dagger 3. so regardless of him being clearly wrong on one of the shots in game 7....he forgot to add that miss.

as for the twolves misses? you keep referencing regulation. both of his claims are in OT. so i'm not sure if you are right about those.

[macpierce]

lebron has a lot of game winning layups............

[ginobli2311]

"let's say I am correct"? I just PROVED I was correct. :oldlol:

And I couldn't even find a few of those games on youtube/ESPN, so there's probably a few more in there that didn't happen.

And the dude didn't even PROVIDE evidence for LeBron's. If he couldn't even provide more fake evidence, I hate to see how far off that percentage actually is from reality. :oldlol:

as for lebron?

i know for sure he has 2 against the wizards.

2 against the pistons.

1 against the magic.

so that is 5 i know of for sure.

he also has the 2 clutch free throws to send a game against the magic into OT, but i'm not sure that counts.

[Ne 1]

cot damn Doranku using no vaseline!

gino racks up another loss....

[ginobli2311]

cot damn Doranku using no vaseline!

gino racks up another loss....

actually i just owned the crap out of him.

the website has been updated on the kings series and is now correct on those.

i know for a fact that kobe missed the game winner in games 4 and 5.....and while i don't agree kobe should be credited for the tip in try in game 7, it did go down as a missed shot on the play by plays apparently.

so sorry. not owned at all.

and again. his other problem was the twolves game....and he was referencing regulation when the website is referencing OT. so i'm not sure about that one.

[Doranku]

i just checked the website and the guy said the intial shot in the kings game 7 was a typo and should have been a game 4 missed layup. which if memory serves kobe did miss that layup before horry made the dagger 3. so regardless of him being clearly wrong on one of the shots in game 7....he forgot to add that miss.

as for the twolves misses? you keep referencing regulation. both of his claims are in OT. so i'm not sure if you are right about those.

When I made that post, there was no reference to OT in the description so I assumed he meant regulation. That article doesn't say anything about OT and I couldn't find a YouTube video on the game so I'm not sure.

[ginobli2311]

When I made that post, there was no reference to OT in the description so I assumed he meant regulation. That article doesn't say anything about OT and I couldn't find a YouTube video on the game so I'm not sure.

ok. so he fixed the shaq mess up and replaced it with the game 4 miss. and that game 4 miss is accurate (i just checked on youtube)

the game 7 miss is BS. so i don't think that should count even though it did count on the play by play apparently. so i'm totally cool with removing that.

like you said. i don't know about the twolves game. i can't remember it and i can't find video or play by play for it.

but all the others seem legit.

did you find any others? i want correct information. i don't want anyone to fabricate anything.

[Doranku]

actually i just owned the crap out of him.

the website has been updated on the kings series and is now correct on those.

i know for a fact that kobe missed the game winner in games 4 and 5.....and while i don't agree kobe should be credited for the tip in try in game 7, it did go down as a missed shot on the play by plays apparently.

so sorry. not owned at all.

and again. his other problem was the twolves game....and he was referencing regulation when the website is referencing OT. so i'm not sure about that one.

You didn't own shit. :oldlol:

That article is a prime example of nitpicking at its finest. For example, that 'list' has no problem crediting Kobe with the missed 'game winner', but fails to accredit him for:

"He stole the ball from Jackson near the Rockets' three-point line and made a running eight-foot bank shot to make it 88-87 for the lakers, then in the next posession he made a basket and was fouled by Taylor in a three-point play that put the Lakers ahead for good with 40 seconds left. "

[Ne 1]

actually i just owned the crap out of him.

the website has been updated on the kings series and is now correct on those.

i know for a fact that kobe missed the game winner in games 4 and 5.....and while i don't agree kobe should be credited for the tip in try in game 7, it did go down as a missed shot on the play by plays apparently.

so sorry. not owned at all.

and again. his other problem was the twolves game....and he was referencing regulation when the website is referencing OT. so i'm not sure about that one.

Your honestly just owning yourself.

[ginobli2311]

You didn't own shit. :oldlol:

That article is a prime example of nitpicking at its finest. For example, that 'list' has no problem crediting Kobe with the missed 'game winner', but fails to accredit him for:

"He stole the ball from Jackson near the Rockets' three-point line and made a running eight-foot bank shot to make it 88-87 for the lakers, then in the next posession he made a basket and was fouled by Taylor in a three-point play that put the Lakers ahead for good with 40 seconds left. "

40 seconds left does not qualify though. so what does that have to do with this discussion?

[indiefan24]

this will be my last post in the thread.


:confusedshrug:

[Doranku]

ok. so he fixed the shaq mess up and replaced it with the game 4 miss. and that game 4 miss is accurate (i just checked on youtube)

the game 7 miss is BS. so i don't think that should count even though it did count on the play by play apparently. so i'm totally cool with removing that.

like you said. i don't know about the twolves game. i can't remember it and i can't find video or play by play for it.

but all the others seem legit.

did you find any others? i want correct information. i don't want anyone to fabricate anything.

The Philly one was a TO. I can't find the actual play by play, but looking at the video, I don't see how it could be counted as a shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwnJwrgCCY&feature=related (1:55 mark)

Also, I re-read that article on the Wolves game, and it said Kobe stepped out of bounds on a 3 point attempt late in OT, so that might have been one of the "shots" that list alludes to.

Not saying TOs are better than misses, but they don't belong in a list like this considering we aren't counting LeBron's TOs, either.

[Ne 1]

:confusedshrug:

We all know that wasn't possible for an obsessive nut job like himself.

[ginobli2311]

You didn't own shit. :oldlol:

That article is a prime example of nitpicking at its finest. For example, that 'list' has no problem crediting Kobe with the missed 'game winner', but fails to accredit him for:

"He stole the ball from Jackson near the Rockets' three-point line and made a running eight-foot bank shot to make it 88-87 for the lakers, then in the next posession he made a basket and was fouled by Taylor in a three-point play that put the Lakers ahead for good with 40 seconds left. "

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=230424013&period=5

the twolves shots happened.

kobe missed a jumper down 1 with 13 seconds left.

kobe missed a three down three with 2 seconds left.

so it sounds like this list is pretty dead on now that the shaq thing got fixed.

and even though kobe technically got credited for the missed tip in game 7 against the kings....i won't count it.

so that is 6 of 21 unless you found anything else wrong.

[Doranku]

40 seconds left does not qualify though. so what does that have to do with this discussion?

So why do some misses with 13+ seconds left "qualify" when more points in the game were scored? Hitting a shot with 13 seconds left is no guarantee at all to be a game winner. I wonder how many shots Kobe made in situations like these to tie the game/put them ahead weren't referenced to in this list because the opposing team scored afterward.

Like I said, this list is nitpicking and manipulating at its finest.

[ginobli2311]

We all know that wasn't possible for an obsessive nut job like himself.

it would have been but doranku has been claiming that the list was way off. which is simply not true. there was a typo that has now been fixed and a questionable tip in for game 7 against the kings.

i'm just trying to get the information correct. then i'll leave you to make excuses and bring up things that don't fit the criteria.

[ginobli2311]

So why do some misses with 13+ seconds left "qualify" when more points in the game were scored? Hitting a shot with 13 seconds left is no guarantee at all to be a game winner. I wonder how many shots Kobe made in situations like these to tie the game/put them ahead weren't referenced to in this list because the opposing team scored afterward.

Like I said, this list is nitpicking and manipulating at its finest.

its the same standard for everyone. they use a 24 seconds or less criteria.

if you want to talk about 40 seconds left, you have to do that for other players. i'm pretty sure lebron has made a lot of big plays with 40 seconds left as well.

this is merely about potential game winners and game tying shots. thats it.


and no. this list does not differentiate. any shot kobe makes that fits the criteria is included, it actually has nothing to do with the outcome....which is why i like it. if kobe makes a shot with 10 seconds left to put his team up by 1, but the other team makes a buzzer beater, i still want kobe to get credit for making that shot. its a huge shot and should be recorded as such. not his fault the other team made a last second shot.

[Ne 1]

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2001/2002: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nEqiEZQ30

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2002: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOXZea1iGk

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2003-2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDpPrdF6ANs

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0vfX6j1Pw

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlusnThciI4

Kobe clutch playoff plays 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqLrgyVIAE

http://peerdclothing.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/kobe-rings.jpg

/thread

[NBASTATMAN]

KOBESTANS should just admit he is overrated in clutch oppurtunities.. But that still doesn't mean he isn't the best or one of the best in those opps..Kobe and the Lakers have been in so many close games that I believe he is the best to take and make those shots.... Personally I would take him over anyone playing now to make a big shot.. Mostly cuz all the other guys scuk....Besides PPierce and Ray allen who are right there with kobe... As far as making a play for the win its a no brainer give me Lebron..


If its just a shot give me Fish to take it.. I think he is better than Kobe at making big shots.. But if you have to create a shot than kobe is the best at it ...

[ginobli2311]

The Philly one was a TO. I can't find the actual play by play, but looking at the video, I don't see how it could be counted as a shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwnJwrgCCY&feature=related (1:55 mark)

Also, I re-read that article on the Wolves game, and it said Kobe stepped out of bounds on a 3 point attempt late in OT, so that might have been one of the "shots" that list alludes to.

Not saying TOs are better than misses, but they don't belong in a list like this considering we aren't counting LeBron's TOs, either.

yea. i don't think that was a shot either really. but technically it was probably credited as a shot. like the tip.

and the problem i have with some stuff is that if kobe had made the tip in for game 7, no doubt everyone would be crediting him with a game winner. so its a though call.

but i don't mind getting rid of both of them if it makes you guys happy.

the point of my thread was to knock some sense into the stans and people that constantly hate on lebron for not taking big shots. not only does lebron take as many big shots as kobe does in the playoffs, he makes a far higher percentage of them.

that was the point. and i stand by it.

[Ne 1]

KOBESTANS should just admit he is overrated in clutch oppurtunities.. But that still doesn't mean he isn't the best or one of the best in those opps.. Personally I would take him over anyone playing now to make a big shot.. But PPierce is right their and so is Ray Allen... As far as making a play for the win its a no brainer give me Lebron..

Kobe has more game winners than anybody since he entered the NBA ('96). League average is shooting 29%, Kobe is shooting 31%, despite the fact that everyone in the building knows he is taking the shot, and he gets double, and even triple teamed for most of those attempts. I will agree that Kobe's "clutchness" is overrated, but so is everyone's. People will remember the makes more than the misses in every players career.

Ask every coach, general manager, Kobe's peers, legends, the majority of basketball fans and analysts etc. who they would want to take over when the game is on the line and the will tell you Kobe.

[Doranku]

yea. i don't think that was a shot either really. but technically it was probably credited as a shot. like the tip.

and the problem i have with some stuff is that if kobe had made the tip in for game 7, no doubt everyone would be crediting him with a game winner. so its a though call.

but i don't mind getting rid of both of them if it makes you guys happy.

the point of my thread was to knock some sense into the stans and people that constantly hate on lebron for not taking big shots. not only does lebron take as many big shots as kobe does in the playoffs, he makes a far higher percentage of them.

that was the point. and i stand by it.

I really don't see how the one against Philly could be counted as a shot. You see plays where guys get stripped like that all the time nowadays and they're NEVER called as shot attempts.

The only problem I have with the Kobe 'tip' was that it looked like two other guys got a hand on it. Otherwise, I would have no problem with it counting as a shot.

[catch24]

Kobe has played in 9 more postseasons than LeBron.

Not surprising at all.

[redsoxballer]

5 rings and counting vs 0 and the worst championship series performance by a star player in sports history.....

[Ne 1]

5 rings and counting vs 0 and the worst championship series performance by a star player in sports history.....

Yep.

Give me that ''overrated clutchness'' any day. Being clutch to me is winning meaningful games. Not made shots vs missed shots at the end of a game. But hey, maybe its just me....

[Harion]

Yep.

Give me that ''overrated clutchness'' any day. Being clutch to me is winning meaningful games. Not made shots vs missed shots at the end of a game. But hey, maybe its just me....
your clutch boy had Artest won him his last ring. :lol he was so clutch he was beside himself with clutchness :lol winning meaningful games? your boy hasn't won a meaningful game EVER. always rode his way to his rings.

[catch24]

Yep.

Give me that ''overrated clutchness'' any day. Being clutch to me is winning meaningful games. Not made shots vs missed shots at the end of a game. But hey, maybe its just me....

As much as I can't stand your infatuation with Kobe and problem with stealing peoples posts, I gotta agree. Is Derek Jeter 'clutch' because he consistently hits GW home runs or drive in runs in the bottom of the 9th? No, that's not it at all. It's his ability to lead and help make the Yankees a contender every season. It's his clutch hitting in general (doesn't have to be a GW). The major reason he's known as "clutch" is because his ability to WIN and come up huge in the post season. No innings, no quarters, or minutes can determine a players clutch ability.

[tpols]

As much as I can't stand your infatuation with Kobe and problem with stealing peoples posts, I gotta agree. Is Derek Jeter 'clutch' because he consistently hits GW home runs or drive in runs in the bottom of the 9th? No, that's not it at all. It's his ability to lead and help make the Yankees a contender every season. It's his clutch hitting in general (doesn't have to be a GW). The major reason he's known as "clutch" is because his ability to WIN and come up huge in the post season. No innings, no quarters, or minutes can determine a players clutch ability.
Yup.. you can't use numbers to quantify something that is based purely on intangibles and context. Like, if the shot occured a second before the 24 second parameter, or the team was down by three instead of two, or it was a pivotal game 5 instead of a game 1... these things make these stats just pure cherrypicking and manipulation. Not to mention the site is being run by some jordan nutcase who is twisting facts/parameters to meet his agenda. Funny how gino disappeared for pages in this thread when all this bullshit was being called out.:oldlol:

But in the end, I don't really care about all of this bullshit about who was marginally better... I just want to watch the games and appreciate what is left. It's going to suck seeing kobe leave after watching him all these years. I think all of these 'haters' will feel the same way because when he is gone, they'll appreciate what he did in the league. The second best perimeter player/scorer ever will be gone soon..

[PowerGlove]

:facepalm

Bottom line, Lebron has shot a better percentage on playoff GW shots than Kobe. Lets move on.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe has more game winners than anybody since he entered the NBA ('96). League average is shooting 29%, Kobe is shooting 31%, despite the fact that everyone in the building knows he is taking the shot, and he gets double, and even triple teamed for most of those attempts. I will agree that Kobe's "clutchness" is overrated, but so is everyone's. People will remember the makes more than the misses in every players career.

Ask every coach, general manager, Kobe's peers, legends, the majority of basketball fans and analysts etc. who they would want to take over when the game is on the line and the will tell you Kobe.



Huge problem that I see is that Kobe has left a few winners on the table cuz he didn't pass to a open teammate.. Take a look at THE FINALS VS Orlando when he had 3-4 players closing in on him..Even KOBESTANS Gotta admit the guy is horrible at making the correct choice when the game is on the line... He is the best shotmaker in the game and that is why I would choose him but as I have written before give me lebron if you want a smart choice made..


Regular season winners pale in comparison to playoff winners...

[ginobli2311]

Yup.. you can't use numbers to quantify something that is based purely on intangibles and context. Like, if the shot occured a second before the 24 second parameter, or the team was down by three instead of two, or it was a pivotal game 5 instead of a game 1... these things make these stats just pure cherrypicking and manipulation. Not to mention the site is being run by some jordan nutcase who is twisting facts/parameters to meet his agenda. Funny how gino disappeared for pages in this thread when all this bullshit was being called out.:oldlol:

But in the end, I don't really care about all of this bullshit about who was marginally better... I just want to watch the games and appreciate what is left. It's going to suck seeing kobe leave after watching him all these years. I think all of these 'haters' will feel the same way because when he is gone, they'll appreciate what he did in the league. The second best perimeter player/scorer ever will be gone soon..

but nobody is saying kobe isn't clutch. and i totally agree that some things can't be measured. and parts of clutch fit that description.

but kobe fans act like kobe clearly has more of those unmeasurable qualities. and so that is why people go out and do studies on individual and team performance.

the bottom line is that kobe stans hate on lebron 24/7 about not taking game winning shots. you know this. so this kind of owns them. lebron takes them at about the same rate (actually more if we don't count a couple on the list for kobe) and makes them at a higher rate in the playoffs.

so you wouldn't see any of this stuff if the stans just settled down.

[Droid101]

How about the fadeaway that puts the team up 6 and forces free throws the rest of the way instead of a one possession game with a chance to tie for overtime?

Kobe ends games before these clutch stats even start recording. GTFO with your hate.

[ginobli2311]

How about the fadeaway that puts the team up 6 and forces free throws the rest of the way instead of a one possession game with a chance to tie for overtime?

Kobe ends games before these clutch stats even start recording. GTFO with your hate.

actually this is true. but so do other players.

why do kobe fans keep insisting that kobe is the only player to make big shots.

my god, we have the clutch stats from the last few years with games within 5 points. kobe is one of the best, but not the best.

so deal with it. kobe makes a ton of huge shots. he also misses a ton of huge shots. just like the other elite players in the league.

[Droid101]

kobe makes a ton of huge shots.
And yet, you seem compelled to make a new "Kobe isn't clutch!" thread every day.

[branslowski]

Being clutch= winning. Both players win....Both players are great...Both players are clutch. I'd take Kobe over anyone, but others would take other players...All good...

Wonder what thread is gonna be made tomorrow....With Kobe's name in it, made by a non Kobe fan...

[Eat Like A Bosh]

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4205/trolldetected.png

[ginobli2311]

And yet, you seem compelled to make a new "Kobe isn't clutch!" thread every day.

not true at all. i compelled to make a "kobe isn't the king of crunch time and his stans over-rate the crap out of him" thread

big difference.

whatever. i posted again to show that doranku was not right on claiming there were 4 mistakes.

there are now technically no mistakes because the tip in and turnover were counted as shots on the play by play. i don't agree with that at all.

so i think kobe is 6 of 20. not 6 of 22.

i know for sure lebron has 5. and two clutch fts to send a game to OT. not sure if they count that, but if they do....lebron has 6. not sure about attempts. but my guess is that its less than 10.

so the information has been validated and this serves as a STFU to all kobe stans that harp on lebron for not making or taking the game winning shot in the playoffs.

/thread

[Dave3]

Being clutch= winning. Both players win....Both players are great...Both players are clutch. I'd take Kobe over anyone, but others would take other players...All good...

Wonder what thread is gonna be made tomorrow....With Kobe's name in it, made by a non Kobe fan...
Kobe vs. Jordan: They myth of Kobe being 6'6":lol

[branslowski]

Kobe vs. Jordan: They myth of Kobe being 6'6":lol

:oldlol: Kobe runs these ppl's lives....N!ggas need to get laid...

[winwin]

OP
now count howmany times both players got scared and passed the ball final seconds and another player got the last shot.


"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."


Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

end quote


if he fails, if he fails, if he fails...

your boy wasn't in the areana and that's a fail
but kobe was the man in the arena and he won
he won big time

haters burn

[Jacks3]

:confusedshrug:
he can't help himself. kobe threads---he be addicted to them. :lol

[N0Skillz]

I am a retard







this will be my last post in the thread. just keeping it real. got to bring the stans back to reality.

in b4 ring count argument.




LOLZ

[strike]

http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

kobe is 6-22 27.3% for his career in the playoffs
lebron is 5-9 55.5% for his career in the playoffs

who's the better playoff game winning shot performer?

ROFL

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

make up ur mind

ARE u a kobe-hatin troll or not???
you say your not. then you start a dumbass thread like this

[ginobli2311]

Just bumping this since ginobli is trying to let the thread die after being exposed. :lol

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=220602023&period=4

just bumping this since doranku is trying to let the thread die after being exposed. :oldlol:

check the link. kobe credited with the missed tip in the play by play. so that one is accurate.

so we have verified every single one other than the sixers game.

so at best he's 6-21. wow....i feel so exposed.

[Nash-tastic]

Gino, I thought you weren't gonna post in this thread anymore?

[Javat_90]

Gino, I thought you weren't gonna post in this thread anymore?

He cant.

You ever seen a rapist say "Im sorry, I wont do it anymore"?

Well, this is similar.