Bob Pettit is pretty much just a name. And I kinda wonder why.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect it may be partly because he looked like this:

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/Bob_Pettit.jpg


And unlike other whites of his time he doesnt have some amazing legacy building quality. Like west being Mr Clutch and having the long storied Laker career. Or Cousy with all his flashy play. Or Mikan being the first superstar. I guess he and Dolph Schayes are similar in that...but Bob did more. He did more than a lot of people....

And he did it all. He won a ring. He was a multi time MVP. He had continued playoff success. He went to 4 finals and almost 6 and he only failed to win 2 rings by a missed layup in OT of game 7.

Not like he didnt play the greats. He played 6 years with west and Oscar(And remember...Oscar was a 31/10/10 player as a rookie). 9 years with Russell. 6-7 years with Wilt. Russell ranked him tied as one of the 6th best of all time. Wilt had Bob on his all time team.

This is how the MVP voting went for 6 years...the first 6 MVP votes:

1955-56
[Mar56} Votes
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 35
Paul Arizin (PHW) ....... 21
Bob Cousy (BOS) ......... 10
Mel Hutchins (FTW) ...... 9
Bill Sharman (BOS) ...... 2
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 2
Maurice Stokes (ROC) .... 1
Tom Gola (PHW) .......... 1

1956-57
[18Mar57] Votes
Bob Cousy (BOS) ......... 31
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 20
Paul Arizin (PHW) ....... 10
George Yardley (FTW) .... 7
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 5
Maurice Stokes (ROC) .... 5
Bill Russell (BOS) ...... 2
Jack Twyman (ROC) ....... 1
Ken Sears (NYK) ......... 1
Harry Gallatin (NYK) .... 1
Mel Hutchins (FTW) ...... 1
Ray Felix (NYK) ......... 1

1957-58 1st 2nd 3rd Tot
[1Mar58] (5) (3) (1) Pts
Bill Russell (BOS) ...... 33 16 15 228
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 25 21 10 198
George Yardley (DET) .... 12 12 24 120
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 4 11 18 71
Maurice Stokes (CIN) .... 2 4 6 28
Bob Cousy (BOS) ......... 2 1 5 11
Bill Sharman (BOS) ...... 2 0 1 11
Paul Arizin (PHW) ....... 0 2 2 8
Walter Dukes (DET) ...... 0 1 1 4
Vern Mikkelsen (MPL) .... 0 1 0 3
Cliff Hagan (STL) ....... 0 0 2 2
Neil Johnston (PHW) ..... 0 0 1 1
Clyde Lovellette (CIN) .. 0 0 1 1
Ken Sears (NYK) ......... 0 0 1 1

1958-59 1st 2nd 3rd Tot
[Mar59] (5) (3) (1) Pts
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 59 7 1 317
Bill Russell (BOS) ...... 10 25 19 144
Elgin Baylor (MPL) ...... 2 20 18 88
Bob Cousy (BOS) ......... 4 11 18 71
Paul Arizin (PHW) ....... 1 7 13 39
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 1 6 3 26
Larry Costello (SYR) .... 3 0 0 15
Ken Sears (NYK) ......... 1 1 4 12
Cliff Hagan (STL) ....... 1 3 0 11
Jack Twyman (CIN) ....... 0 1 4 7
Tom Gola (PHW) .......... 0 1 0 3
Dick McGuire (NYK) ...... 0 1 0 3
Richie Regan ............ 0 0 3 3
Gee Shue (DET) .......... 0 0 1 1

1959-60 1st 2nd 3rd Tot
(5) (3) (1) Pts
Wilt Chamberlain (PHW) .. 49 6 7 270
Bill Russell (BOS) ...... 15 34 9 186
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 3 25 16 106
Bob Cousy (BOS) ......... 4 11 18 66
Elgin Baylor (MPL) ...... 2 2 24 40
Jack Twyman (CIN) ....... 0 1 5 8
Gene Shue (DET) ......... 0 2 1 7
Tom Gola (PHI) .......... 1 0 1 6
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 0 1 3 6
Tom Heinsohn (BOS) ...... 1 0 0 5
Walter Dukes (DET) ...... 0 1 1 4
Richie Guerin (NYK) ..... 0 1 0 3
Willie Naulls (NYK) ..... 0 1 0 3
Cliff Hagan (STL) ....... 0 0 1 1

1960-61 1st 2nd 3rd Tot
(5) (3) (1) Pts
Bill Russell (BOS) ...... 35 10 8 213
Bob Pettit (STL) ........ 14 14 13 125
Elgin Baylor (LAL) ...... 10 19 9 116
Wilt Chamberlain (PHW) .. 3 17 15 81
Oscar Robertson (CIN) ... 7 6 17 70
Tom Heinsohn (BOS) ...... 3 0 0 15
Dolph Schayes (SYR) ..... 1 2 1 12
Bailey Howell (DET) ..... 1 1 1 9
Gene Shue (DET) ......... 0 2 2 8
Jack Twyman (CIN) ....... 0 2 0 6
Jerry West (LAL) ........ 1 0 0 5
Clyde Lovellette (STL) .. 0 1 1 4
Cliff Hagan (STL) ....... 0 1 0 3
Richie Guerin (NYK) ..... 0 0 2 2
Willie Naulls (NYK) ..... 0 0 1 1
Paul Arizin (PHW) ....... 0 0 1 1
Ken Sears (NYK) ......... 0 0 1 1


Hes right up there every year. Russell, Wilt, Baylor, and Oscar were all lower than him in some years MVP votes...some of them in years later brought up when the case if made that they are top 3-10 all time. And he was top 4 in MVP voting for a few more years after that. For the numbers lovers....

He was putting up 31/19 at one point. And his shooting percentage while low early got up to decent levels. But they shot a lot then. One miss ****s up the percentages as you know.

He retired the all time leading scorer. I think he set a bunch of FT and rebound records. He was all NBA first team like...10 years in a row. He was an all star every season. 3 time all star MVP. He dropped 50 points to win his ring. His career averages are 26/16. Highest career rebound average after wilt and Russell. Helped by era no doubt...but people stay bringing up Wilt and russell in rebound arguments.

Why is it every great player from his era gets top 5-10 talk...but him?

When you think about it...as a teams leader?

He did more than West, Baylor, or Oscar. He had better numbers than Russell. Hes a layup from winning as much as Wilt while being one of the only players to ever approach his numbers.

Yet he doesnt even come up when the question is best 4?

I know...people hate on the 50s and 60s. Old...white people...short shorts...bullshit about 6'4'' centers and all...fine.

Why just Bob though? None of that keeps Oscar from all time great lists. Or West. Even Baylor will come up more often when the issue is best 3s than Pettit will for best 4s.

Just looking at his body of work...shouldnt he come up a lot more often than he does?

[magnax1]

He doesn't come up because of when he played, and there is 0 footage of him. Pretty much as simple as that.

[Lebron23]

He doesn't come up because of when he played, and there is 0 footage of him. Pretty much as simple as that.

This

Looking at his stats, individual awards, and team accomplishments. Pettit is a top 15-20 player of all time.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think many people have seen anything those guys did though. He played pretty much the same time as all the other 60s greats. And people have seen less of Mikan than him probably. Or just none of both. But as I said he doesnt have a hook. Something that stands out I guess. I just feel like in this time of people combing over every little thing everyone has ever done and making all these endless rankings...he should have been noticed. Pointed out more often than he is.

[magnax1]

I dont think many people have seen anything those guys did though. He played pretty much the same time as all the other 60s greats. And people have seen less of Mikan than him probably. Or just none of both. But as I said he doesnt have a hook. Something that stands out I guess. I just feel like in this time of people combing over every little thing everyone has ever done and making all these endless rankings...he should have been noticed. Pointed out more often than he is.
Basically anyone that retired before 65, maybe excluding Cousy, gets ignored like him. Paul Arizin is another good example.

[jlauber]

Good post. I tend to only rank the players that I actually saw play. Clearly, though, based on your post, he should be a top-20 player, maybe even higher. I have always felt that Jerry Lucas is under-rated in these topics, but Pettit had an even greater career.

[hayden695]

No footage and he doesn't have the certain "thing" to go with his name. Like you said (much better than I, but still), he never won as much as Russell, never had as amazing of stats as wilt or oscar. Sad to say but he is just a forgotten great, too bad cause it happens to lot's of guys. I can see it happening to Duncan in fifty years, since his stats were never as mind boggling as Shaq's, didn't win an extreme amount of titles and didn't have the flashiness of some guys. Which would obviously be a tragedy.

[eliteballer]

All that, and you're not going to mention he's the only one besides Wilt's 67 Sixers to beat Russell's Celtics, while dropping 50 in Game 7 of the Finals?

[magnax1]

There are other guys who are forgotten just as much. How about McAdoo? Is there any MVP that's ignored as much as him? Or Rick barry.

[Kblaze8855]

Basically anyone that retired before 65, maybe excluding Cousy, gets ignored like him. Paul Arizin is another good example.

Thats just the thing though...he played everyone. He did everything.

He played every great player before Kareem. But he is the only one of them who is totally ignored.

Im not wondering why the general public is unaware of him. The general public barely knows Bill Russell.

Im wondering how in places like this...we seem so unaware of him.

We know of and argue about the place of EVERY top flight player of his era except him. He played...and was considered better than at times...guys ive seen us put in the top 10 all time.

Im just wondering why some guys playing in the same league as him can be discussed to death while hes a virtual nobody.

[reppy]

Interesting. I had heard the name, but had no idea he had such an impressive resume. Excellent post.

[kidachi]

I always knew Pettit, since being addicted to the NBA when I was kid I try watching tapes and shows about the greats..

I sort of know about this first batch of greats.. the Pettits and the Arizins, the Sharmans, the Guerins, and on and on..

but I think as far as being overlooked nowadays and maybe all-time..

Jack Twyman is the guy who's synonymous it..

He was an offensive juggernaut.. If i remember correctly he broke a couple of scoring records..

[Patrick Chewing]

I always knew Pettit, since being addicted to the NBA when I was kid I try watching tapes and shows about the greats..


Same here. As avid card collector, I would always study the names on the list of the oldest set of cards.

[observ]

I really enjoyed this post. It's always seemed odd to me how little Pettit (and Schayes, for that matter) is spoken of. For the longest time I considered him a top 10 player; now, if forced to cough up a list, I'd probably have him around 12th. That probably looks obscenely high, but he you're right - he did a lot.

As for why he's not mentioned more, aside from the points you mentioned, I can think of at least two more potential reasons:

1 - I think relatively few people are conscious of the overlap between his career and the greats you mentioned. I think the conception is that he was just a Johnston/Macauley era player or something, tapering off in the late 50s as the big guns start entering the scene.

2 - As a general rule, we tend to hold the opinions others hold. The idea of Jordan as greatest of all-time, for example (not that I'm taking a position on that here either way) is probably as much inherited via others' opinions as it is consciously formed by individuals committed to research. So, the fact that people tend to not rate him highly is likely partly due to the fact that no one hears anyone else rating him highly (or discussing him in general). When threads like yours are made, people see others' opinions, and generate their own based on them, to a certain extent. In short, no one talks about Pettit, because no one talks about Pettit.

3 - No real nickname. I mean, Dutch? Really? I could've told him that wouldn't stand the test of time. Should've gone with PetHawk.. St. Bob.. or something....

[Collie]

He's a forgotten man among the greats. Bill Simmons wrote in his book that he was overshadowed because of a lack of defining thing about him. Much like Kblaze mentions.

[eliteballer]

He's a forgotten man among the greats. Bill Simmons wrote in his book that he was overshadowed because of a lack of defining thing about him. Much like Kblaze mentions.

:oldlol: Still havent read his book Kblaze? I honestly think, if he can get an ESPN and publishing deal you can too.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive only even read one full article of his and I think it was about the 2006 or 2007 all star game. Id read the book if someone just left it at my house...but im not likely to buy it. Though I did buy Elliot Kalb and he mixes not knowing anything I dont with not even being funny. But I do love a good quote from a great player about another great player...

[PHILA]

Jun 28, 1998

NATCHITOCHES - Lucious "Luke" Jackson doesn't have any problem acknowledging what the Chicago Bulls have accomplished in winning six NBA titles in the last eight years, but the 1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers' team he played on will always have its place in league history.

Jackson, a high school star in Bastrop in the late 1950s, was a starter when the 76ers rolled to the 1967 NBA title after posting a 68-13 regular-season record. That club was recently chosen as the greatest team in the first 50 years of the league.

Jackson, one of seven inductees into the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame on Saturday night, was asked how those 76ers would stack up with the Bulls.

"I've been asked that a hundred times, and the answer is always the same," Jackson said. "We had something they didn't have, Wilt Chamberlain. The Bulls had Michael Jordan, and while he's a great player, we had a team that could run, rebound and shoot.

"Anything that came down the lane was a no-no, and I'm sorry to say that Jordan would have many bruises," he said with a laugh. "It would be a good contest, but I think the Sixers would win."


LEARNING A LESSON: Jackson, a powerfully built 6-foot-10 forward, talked about his indoctrination into the NBA after he led the 1964 U.S. Olympic team to a gold medal in Tokyo.

"When I was a rookie, I had the opportunity to play against Mr. (Bob) Pettit," he said of the former LSU star. "He was one of the finest forwards to ever play in the NBA, and I learned you don't stand on the floor looking up.

"Bob was going up for a rebound one night and I was just looking at him," Jackson said. "I decided from then on that when any rebound was in the air, I was going after it."

[Toizumi]

Ive only even read one full article of his and I think it was about the 2006 or 2007 all star game. Id read the book if someone just left it at my house...but im not likely to buy it. Though I did buy Elliot Kalb and he mixes not knowing anything I dont with not even being funny. But I do love a good quote from a great player about another great player...

I thought Simmons book was a fun read. As a Celtics fan he is biased of course, but he had some nice insights and stories about players.

I don't know what it is about Bob Pettit.
Because of his numbers/accomplishments and stories I read about him, I recognize him as one of the greats..
However, when asked about the best forwards ever, I understand that most people can easily forget to mention this guy (he's not the only one I guess), even if they have heard of him. Hardly any current NBA fans have seen him play and although his stats were great, there is not much to remember him by, apart from that. There's some stories, but not many. He doesnt get the same attention as some other big names from the old days..
There was no (extreme) statistical dominance like Wilt. No stories about sick defense, leadership and amount of rings as Russell. No triple double season like Oscar. No sick handles and inventive dribbling like Cousy. He was just a great great player. A bit dull maybe? Fans that are interested in the old days and read up on it, know about his greatness though.

[Hammertime]

Kblaze, didn't you make a video mix featuring Petit and a few other forgotten greats? I tried looking for it on Youtube, but it's not there.

Either way, what strikes me watching a few clips of him in existence is how well-rounded and "modern" his game looks. Here was a big man who had post moves, who could shoot from the outside, who could rebound, move well without the ball...

And for some reason, this play impressed me the most. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTIrG1Xn1Jk#t=1m40s

Try as I might to avoid it, maybe I also bought into the theory that 50s players were unathletic and could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. Centers are especially accused of this. And look at Pettit intercept that pass at halfcourt and just drive to the hoop for a slam. Sure looks like his handle's fine and he looks quick as hell. Plus, it turns out the dunk was no invented in the 70s afterall.

[joe]

You know who might be remembered as much (or little) as Petit? KG. Actually, their situations seem eerily similar.

Great players in their time, often talked about as one of the best. They win MVP's, all-NBA selections, respect from their peers. Both win one title.*

But in say 50 years, when people look back at the 2000's, who will they remember most? Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, most likely. People will know Lebron played in this era, but if he doesn't win titles it won't be mentioned (kinda like 80's Jordan).

Can't you see someone in 50 years in a forum saying.. "Kevin Garnett is just a name, why isn't he talked about with the other greats from the 2000's?



*Obviously KG can still change that.

[Toizumi]

You know who might be remembered as much (or little) as Petit? KG. Actually, their situations seem eerily similar.

Great players in their time, often talked about as one of the best. They win MVP's, all-NBA selections, respect from their peers. Both win one title.*

But in say 50 years, when people look back at the 2000's, who will they remember most? Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, most likely. People will know Lebron played in this era, but if he doesn't win titles it won't be mentioned (kinda like 80's Jordan).

Can't you see someone in 50 years in a forum saying.. "Kevin Garnett is just a name, why isn't he talked about with the other greats from the 2000's?



*Obviously KG can still change that.

KG wil definitely stand the test of time (is that even a saying.. hmm). He got a lot of media attention (and rightfully so). Plus he won a ring, MVP, DPOY...
People all over the world are wearing his jersey, his shoes. :confusedshrug: Also, he will remembered because of his antics. Barkley for instance would never be forgotten either (even if he didnt get into broadcasting).

[Showtime]

I bring him up in every all-time PF discussions. He revolutionized the 4 spot, stopped the Celtics with a great individual effort, and I've even heard one of his teammates say that Bob could impact a game more than any other individual player.

One of the best things ESPN has done is interview some of the older players before they pass on. You can listen to Bob talk about his finals series against Boston here:

http://espndb.go.com/nba/finals/sitemap/_/category/livinghistory/

With that being said, there are some opinions that he was a racist d-bag.

[joe]

KG wil definitely stand the test of time (is that even a saying.. hmm). He got a lot of media attention (and rightfully so). Plus he won a ring, MVP, DPOY...
People all over the world are wearing his jersey, his shoes. :confusedshrug: Also, he will remembered because of his antics. Barkley for instance would never be forgotten either (even if he didnt get into broadcasting).

So what? Will people in 50 years have any clue that KG had his own shoe? That people wore his jersey? Think back on every decade.. we always remember a few standout guys from them and that's it. Of course WE will remember KG, because we grew up with him as a superstar. But will our grand kids really care about the guy who got 1 title while Kobe was winning 5, Duncan was winning 4, and Shaq was busy being the MDE?

KG has the potential to live on in peoples minds.. but Barkley will surely be forgotten dude. To the average basketball fan he'll be a name they've heard and that's it (If that). People like KBLaze will always know the Barkley's of the world.. but go and ask some 14 year old casual NBA fans about Barkley, and they likely won't even know him that well. And he just retired what, 15 years ago? Add another 50 onto that and we'll see if people remember Barkley...

[joe]

KG wil definitely stand the test of time (is that even a saying.. hmm). He got a lot of media attention (and rightfully so). Plus he won a ring, MVP, DPOY...
People all over the world are wearing his jersey, his shoes. :confusedshrug: Also, he will remembered because of his antics. Barkley for instance would never be forgotten either (even if he didnt get into broadcasting).

Plus, just read KBlaze's post on Bob Pettit. Pettit had a ring, MVP, all NBA first teams, all of that. And yet he isn't remembered as more than just a name. Maybe the explosion of media in the 21st century will remedy that a bit for KG, but in the end, when you play in the same decade as Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (or Russell, Wilt, and Cousy), your name's going to fade a bit over time.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Basically anyone that retired before 65, maybe excluding Cousy, gets ignored like him. Paul Arizin is another good example.

never seen richie guerin nor george yardly play neither but they were beasts on nba live 99.

[JMT]

Im wondering how in places like this...we seem so unaware of him.

We know of and argue about the place of EVERY top flight player of his era except him. He played...and was considered better than at times...guys ive seen us put in the top 10 all time.

Im just wondering why some guys playing in the same league as him can be discussed to death while hes a virtual nobody.

You give far too much credit to "places like this".

The top flight players of Pettit's era are rarely discussed with any degree of intelligence here. How can they be? The vast majority of posters here never saw Elvin Hayes play, let alone guys who retired 20 years earlier.

There aren't more than a handful here who can discuss Wilt & Russell...arguably the most polarizing comparison of players in the games history...and bring anything of value to the table. I should clarify; "anything of value" doesn't include reading a stat sheet or counting MVP awards or titles.

Hell, there aren't more than a handful that can intelligently discuss games played last night.

Elgin Baylor, Cousy, Sharman, Yardley, Shue, Twyman...the list of Pettit's contemporaries that are ignored here is seemingly endless, and for good reason. People didn't see them and don't know enough about the game of that era to develop an informed opinion. While I applaud your interest, let's not encourage more written ma$terbation from the masses.

[JMT]

So what? Will people in 50 years have any clue that KG had his own shoe? That people wore his jersey? Think back on every decade.. we always remember a few standout guys from them and that's it. Of course WE will remember KG, because we grew up with him as a superstar. But will our grand kids really care about the guy who got 1 title while Kobe was winning 5, Duncan was winning 4, and Shaq was busy being the MDE?

KG has the potential to live on in peoples minds.. but Barkley will surely be forgotten dude. To the average basketball fan he'll be a name they've heard and that's it (If that). People like KBLaze will always know the Barkley's of the world.. but go and ask some 14 year old casual NBA fans about Barkley, and they likely won't even know him that well. And he just retired what, 15 years ago? Add another 50 onto that and we'll see if people remember Barkley...

Spot on. In 25 years, after HGH and whatever-the-next-laboratory-development is has become commonplace, the discussion will be about how small and weak the players of today are in comparison to their 2036 counterparts.

"Garnett?!?!? Have you seen the video of him? That skinny fock?!?!? He'd get eaten alive in today's game. Why, the Ukraine didn't even have a franchise in the league back then, and they've won the last 5 titles!"

[Scholar]

You know who might be remembered as much (or little) as Petit? KG. Actually, their situations seem eerily similar.

Great players in their time, often talked about as one of the best. They win MVP's, all-NBA selections, respect from their peers. Both win one title.*

But in say 50 years, when people look back at the 2000's, who will they remember most? Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, most likely. People will know Lebron played in this era, but if he doesn't win titles it won't be mentioned (kinda like 80's Jordan).

Can't you see someone in 50 years in a forum saying.. "Kevin Garnett is just a name, why isn't he talked about with the other greats from the 2000's?

*Obviously KG can still change that.

I don't see this happening. People will still remember KG 50 years from now because of his desire to win, he came straight out of high school to the pros, could retire as a Celtics legend, etc.
Unfortunately for Bob Pettit, he played in an era where many of the GOATs are overlooked. The NBA wasn't as popular at the time as it is now, and there weren't too many things to help define Pettit. For instance, people remember Wilt for averaging 50 ppg for an entire season and scoring 100 points in a single game. People remember Bill Russell for being a major contributor to the Celtics' historic championship run.
The media is more to blame for Pettit being overlooked than anyone else. The younger generation, which I'm a part of at the age of 21, haven't seen (m)any highlights of Pettit, heard of him in discussions or articles concerning legendary players, and so forth; thus, we have no recognition of him.
I've known about Pettit's accomplishments but if you were to ask me who the top 20 players of all time are, I probably wouldn't have Pettit on my list. You'd see more stars from the current era than from the past. And every generation, it will continue to change as more and more of the 30's-60's players are forgotten.

[JMT]

I don't see this happening. People will still remember KG 50 years from now because of his desire to win, he came straight out of high school to the pros, could retire as a Celtics legend, etc.
Unfortunately for Bob Pettit, he played in an era where many of the GOATs are overlooked. The NBA wasn't as popular at the time as it is now, and there weren't too many things to help define Pettit. For instance, people remember Wilt for averaging 50 ppg for an entire season and scoring 100 points in a single game. People remember Bill Russell for being a major contributor to the Celtics' historic championship run.
The media is more to blame for Pettit being overlooked than anyone else. The younger generation, which I'm a part of at the age of 21, haven't seen (m)any highlights of Pettit, heard of him in discussions or articles concerning legendary players, and so forth; thus, we have no recognition of him.
I've known about Pettit's accomplishments but if you were to ask me who the top 20 players of all time are, I probably wouldn't have Pettit on my list. You'd see more stars from the current era than from the past. And every generation, it will continue to change as more and more of the 30's-60's players are forgotten.

Which is what will happen to Garnett as well.

Young baseball fans can't tell you much about Bob Feller, and his backstory is far better than Garnett's (discovered on a farm, right out of high school, war hero, likely the hardest thrower of his generation, incredible stats), and his stat line buries anything KG has ever done. No slam at Garnett, just the facts.

Can't blame the media. It's not their job to report history. Kind of tough to figure out exactly what their job is anymore, but that's not it.

[iamgine]

Actually, not many outside the small circles of NBA fanatics who come to forums like this even know or care about Wilt, Oscar or Russell. Much less Cousy, Pettit, Mikan, etc.

[moe94]

Most people don't even know who Mitch Richmond and Mullin are and they played during the 90's.

[Jacques Mesrine]

just out of curiosity, how good exactly was Bob Pettit on the court???

who's the most similar player in Bob Pettit's style? Tim Duncan? was he as good as Tim Duncan? just a thought...

[jongib369]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wyeOYaPnYQk/TKx1PjNt7dI/AAAAAAAAAHA/pStp52bKRNY/s1600/what+about+bob.jpg

[AintNoSunshine]

Because half of the people who watched him are dead because they are too old. Except for the few biggest names such as wilt because his stats are crazy and russell because 11 rings，average fans just dont care about the rest. And the media certainly isnt talking about them amy more.

[flipogb]

his name sounds more like a Nascar driver than an NBA player. not sure why

[JMT]

Unfortunately he and others are virtually unknown because the intellect of many of today's basketball fans is reflected in the notion that James' blocked shot last night was something for the ages.

[TheTenth]

He has a biography apparently. Anyone read it? Are there any other publications about him?

[inclinerator]

poor man's chris quinn

[Psileas]

inclinerator

Poor kid doesn't even know what position he played. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Unfortunately he and others are virtually unknown because the intellect of many of today's basketball fans is reflected in the notion that James' blocked shot last night was something for the ages.
I have footage of 35 y/o Wilt blocking a 25 y/o Kareem dunk and catching the shot after he blocks it and blocking 2 skyhooks in a row from the 1972 playoffs enroute to their title yet Lebron blocking the lumbering roleplayer Tiago Splitter should be considered one of the greatest blocks of all time? I mean, he didn't even keep posession of the block, it went out of bounds on him and SA kept the ball :oldlol:

[inclinerator]

I have footage of 35 y/o Wilt blocking a 25 y/o Kareem dunk and catching the shot after he blocks it and blocking 2 skyhooks in a row from the 1972 playoffs enroute to their title yet Lebron blocking the lumbering roleplayer Tiago Splitter should be considered one of the greatest blocks of all time? I mean, he didn't even keep posession of the block, it went out of bounds on him and SA kept the ball :oldlol:
ur talking about the block on splitter? it went to a heat player

[CavaliersFTW]

ur talking about the block on splitter? it went to a heat player
Ah, fair enough - well at least he kept it in play. Still - not an all-time block. It was against no-one special.

[JMT]

Ah, fair enough - well at least he kept it in play. Still - not an all-time block. It was against no-one special.

Just a basketball play. Nothing more, nothing less.

Until ESPN, 30 second attention spans and what can only be categorized as unnatural man-love come into play.

[TheTenth]

Ah, fair enough - well at least he kept it in play. Still - not an all-time block. It was against no-one special.
Do you have any Pettit footage in your archive?

[Kblaze8855]

I had a video on him years ago but its lost.

[CavaliersFTW]

Do you have any Pettit footage in your archive?
Yes, perhaps a few minutes worth of clips. But def not enough for anyone to really give him a fair shake on how good he probably was.

[TheTenth]

Yes, perhaps a few minutes worth of clips. But def not enough for anyone to really give him a fair shake on how good he probably was.
For what it is worth, I would be very much interested if you ever made a highlights film of him. I'm surprised you have made on yet with some compilation of late 50s stars - like a Arizin/Stokes/Hagan/Pettit video or a Celtic based Cousy/Sharman/Heinsohn one.

[CavaliersFTW]

Here Bob Pettit steals in the final seconds of the '65 ASG and finishes with a jam.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4c2NSvkAQoY/UQynETA_6FI/AAAAAAAAEWE/7BBA1NenNNM/s800/Bob%2520Pettit%2520steal%2520and%2520dunk.gif

Here Bob Pettit rebounds in traffic and throws a quick QB pass to Terry Dischinger for a fast break jam in the '64 ASG.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kSk03GGa_jg/UQyl_GgCKWI/AAAAAAAAEVs/SF1D7TWZA1s/s800/Terry%2520Dischinger%2520from%2520Bob%2520Pettit.g if

[CavaliersFTW]

For what it is worth, I would be very much interested if you ever made a highlights film of him. I'm surprised you have made on yet with some compilation of late 50s stars - like a Arizin/Stokes/Hagan/Pettit video or a Celtic based Cousy/Sharman/Heinsohn one.
Because there isn't enough footage to be fair to them. There's hardly enough footage to be fair to Elgin Baylor. When I was doing research on Baylor people who watched him play were telling me he used to dribble between his legs from time to time and had a move that he routinely did dribbling behind his legs back and forth before a drive. I have NO footage of him doing either of those things despite having 13 total minutes worth of random clips of him. Now with 50's guys, I have probably only 5 minutes of each of them tops. There is probably so many moves they had that simply don't exist on film people will watch the few minutes and assume anything they didn't see never happened. It's misleading, so I'm hesitant to make any highlights of players that played that long ago.

[TheTenth]

Because there isn't enough footage to be fair to them. There's hardly enough footage to be fair to Elgin Baylor. When I was doing research on Baylor people who watched him play were telling me he used to dribble between his legs from time to time and had a move that he routinely did dribbling behind his legs back and forth before a drive. I have NO footage of him doing either of those things despite having 13 total minutes worth of random clips of him. Now with 50's guys, I have probably only 5 minutes of each of them tops. There is probably so many moves they had that simply don't exist on film people will watch the few minutes and assume anything they didn't see never happened. It's misleading, so I'm hesitant to make any highlights of players that played that long ago.
Oh no I completely understand that you have to appeal to the large viewership who if they see a small quantity of film will falsely extrapolate a conclusion with negative connotations to the abilities of the players. If you do ever have the time, I just would find it interesting to see a compilation of what you have on those players (similiar to your dunk video is a compilation of many players) like a late 50s Celtic mashup or w/e. I don't know of any way you could limit the viewership on the video if you ever did that though.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shouldn't he be ranked over Lebron all-time? Champion, FMVP if it existed, 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA First Team, 11x All-Star, and 2x Scoring Champ. None of those awards came in a lockout either. Just another ATG Lebron kids forget about.

11. West
12. Oscar
13. Moses
14. Pettit
15. Mikan

:applause:

[Djahjaga]

I had a video on him years ago but its lost.

This one? (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy83e_kblaze-forgotten-legends_sport#.UbZi3Pnqkvk)

[CavaliersFTW]

just out of curiosity, how good exactly was Bob Pettit on the court???

who's the most similar player in Bob Pettit's style? Tim Duncan? was he as good as Tim Duncan? just a thought...
I'm still trying to figure this out myself, I've collected footage that I'm mixing and studying right now and maybe when it's finished people can help try and figure out who he most resembles and why. Or even just which individual attributes of his can be linked to which handful of guys.

Right now from what I can tell his physicality when rebounding is pretty high, he kept his elbows up and he swung his upper body about alot. I'd say dribbling and driving wise, he definitely resembles Tim Duncan because (like Tim) he was brought up a center not a forward, he was then asked to play forward once he got in the NBA. So he 'learned' to play face up and shoot and drive and became good at it but it meant he never really had a typical forwards handle, he only dribbled 1-2 times a drive rarely ever beyond 3 dribbles but it looks like he learned to cover a lot of ground and stretch out his arms for compensation. It really does visually resemble Duncan when Duncan drives but defensively I don't think he was anywhere near Duncan. Probably not a better defender than say, Dirk Nowitzki, but he was a better rebounder than Dirk, perhaps better than Duncan too. Not sure if anyone has calculated his TRB% before but it should be done, because he was a great rebounder for his time.

Anyways here's a little snippet of the mix in progress:
http://youtu.be/IQGWG7Nq5HQ

[BoutPractice]

One of the few players about whom you can actually say he is among the most underrated of all time.

[jstern]

Here Bob Pettit steals in the final seconds of the '65 ASG and finishes with a jam.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4c2NSvkAQoY/UQynETA_6FI/AAAAAAAAEWE/7BBA1NenNNM/s800/Bob%2520Pettit%2520steal%2520and%2520dunk.gif

Here Bob Pettit rebounds in traffic and throws a quick QB pass to Terry Dischinger for a fast break jam in the '64 ASG.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kSk03GGa_jg/UQyl_GgCKWI/AAAAAAAAEVs/SF1D7TWZA1s/s800/Terry%2520Dischinger%2520from%2520Bob%2520Pettit.g if
Funny, this video says that he never dunked a basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMehNZqGo7w

[CavaliersFTW]

Funny, this video says that he never dunked a basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMehNZqGo7w
He probably never did during regular games. That was the 1965 all star game, in front of his home crowd. Probably just wanted to go out with a bang, as that was one of the final plays of the final all star game of his career.

[westside_baller]

He doesn't come up because of when he played, and there is 0 footage of him. Pretty much as simple as that.

I can't believe that there are so-called nba fans who are retarded enough to say this. Pettit was a contemporary of Chamberlain and Russell. You will note that both of those players have more than "0 footage." It stands to reason that since Pettit was playing at the same time, there might be more than "0 footage" of Pettit as well.

As far as his game, Pettit was a freak. He was literally a white Kevin Durant on offense. He had a high release point, very similar to durant and a relatively quick release as well. Both Pettit and Durant are 6'9"; both have freakishly long arms, and they have similar shooting mechanics as well. In addition to that, Pettit had excellent range for a big, extending out very close to today's 3 point line (similar to durant in this respect as well).

Since he played center in college, Pettit also excelled in post play: with an excellent hook shot, a turn around jumper, a drop step, and reverse lay-ups. He was very quick and incredibly graceful: he reminds me a bit of jamaal wilkes and even scottie pippen with his lanky build and exceptional footwork and handles for a tall man.

He was also an excellent rebounder, averaging over 20 a game max, and 16 rbpg over his career. He also averaged 3 assists a game.

If Pettit were born in the late '80's or early '90's I have absolutely no doubt that he'd at least be an all star, and possibly an all nba level player. He had all of the tools: height, great wingspan, nice touch, great range, excellent post game, elite agility.

He was rookie of the year, 2X scoring champ, multiple time all star, all star game mvp, and an nba champion. There is no doubt that Pettit is one of the under-rated legends of the game.

But forget the resume and watch his highlight reel and simply enjoy one of the masters of his craft.

[westside_baller]

just out of curiosity, how good exactly was Bob Pettit on the court???

who's the most similar player in Bob Pettit's style? Tim Duncan? was he as good as Tim Duncan? just a thought...

There's plenty of video footage of Pettit. Where did these idiots ever get the idea that there is "0 footage" (exact quote)?

Pettit was a freak: among contemporary players, he reminds me most of kevin durant and kiki vandeweghe. But Pettit was also the game's best rebounder for years as well, a distinction that neither durant nor vandeweghe could boast of.

Pettit is a legend, and greatly underrated.

[westside_baller]

Yes, perhaps a few minutes worth of clips. But def not enough for anyone to really give him a fair shake on how good he probably was.

It doesn't take long to assess talent. I remember watching jordan play in college and thought to myself: "this guy is the perfect basketball player." It was apparent after just a few possessions. He had the perfect physique, perfect form on his jump shot, a stupid vertical and a level of grace that was just out of this world.

You don't get this impression when watching say, david west, or john salley play.

There are not that many players over the years who absolutely stand out as freaks: shaq, jordan, hakeem, lebron, kobe, chamberlain, yao, erving.

In his era, pettit was that freakishly good.

[kshutts1]

Minor technicality in the OP, but Oscar averaged the triple double in his second season, not his rookie season.

And then, I've seen other people "name drop" but I would LOVE if some of the older/more historical posters could shed some light on the less heralded guys from "back then"...
Arizin
Sharman
Pettit
Schayes
Guerin

etc. I know all the names, and I have a general idea of their careers, but for a larger breakdown, a la the OP. That would be incredible.

And to KBlaze, I'd be willing to mail you my copy of Simmons' book. I trust that you'd mail it back. But I would just recommend getting it from a library.

[CavaliersFTW]

Made big strides on the Pettit mix this weekend, I'm guessing it will be another week or two until ready and the finished mix will be around 10 minutes perhaps? Wish there was more footage but there just is hardly anything from the 1950's and early 60's. It's actually coming along better than I expected though. I still have no idea how people are going to react to his footage.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Made big strides on the Pettit mix this weekend, I'm guessing it will be another week or two until ready and the finished mix will be around 10 minutes perhaps? Wish there was more footage but there just is hardly anything from the 1950's and early 60's. It's actually coming along better than I expected though. I still have no idea how people are going to react to his footage.
Who's the better player in your opinion, Pettit or Wilt?

[CavaliersFTW]

Who's the better player in your opinion, Pettit or Wilt?
Take a guess

[Deuce Bigalow]

Take a guess
Hmm I don't know it seems close so that's why I asked you.

Wilt: 2 rings. Playoff career - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%
Pettit: 1 ring. Playoff career - 25.5 ppg, ? TRB%, 11.3 AST%, 50.1 TS%

[CavaliersFTW]

Hmm I don't know it seems close so that's why I asked you.

Wilt: 2 rings. Playoff career - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%
Pettit: 1 ring. Playoff career - 25.5 ppg, ? TRB%, 11.3 AST%, 50.1 TS%
Yes it's supder dupter close, and those cherry picked numbers accurately encapsulate each players dominance and impact on the game of basketball :oldlol:

[Psileas]

Funny, this video says that he never dunked a basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMehNZqGo7w

Given the amount of footage available, no-one should possibly risk such a quote. Even if Pettit himself told it, I'd still not be 100% sure about its validity (I'd only trust the memory of Jerry Lucas).

[pudman13]

(I'd only trust the memory of Jerry Lucas).

:applause:

[NumberSix]

Titties

[jongib369]

Titties

http://mimg.ugo.com/201012/8/9/9/133998/cuts/men-in-black-2_480_poster.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

Some things about Bob Pettit I'm learning:

*Nothing came easy to him, he got cut from his HS team twice, and from his sophomore HS year on he claims he practiced 6 hours a day every day for the next 10 years to improve his game.

*6-8.25 w/o shoes on, 210lbs rookie. Played as a traditional hook shooting pivot center in the NCAA but was considered to small to play center against pros so from day 1 his coach made him play (and learn from scratch) forward position and face-up skills in the NBA. After his 2nd season (and first MVP - leading league in scoring and rebounding) he began lifting weights to get stronger because he felt it was the only thing from that point on he could do to get 'better'. He eventually filled out to 245lbs. He claims if he played 'today' he'd have started weight lifting younger like everyone else does and would definitely play at '260' rather than '245'.

*He was a 'finesse' player offensively, he was a 'big' but scored by driving and shooting rather than banging in the post and was always baiting defenses to send him to the FT line. He only needed to take a few jump shots a game, as the rest of his points and field goals came from Free Throws (about 10-12pts a game on FT's alone) and offensive rebounds (another 8-10pts a game). Players who played with/against him also claim he never dunked the ball (there is a clip of him doing so in the '65 ASG - but that could just be to entertain his home crowd in St Louis during his final season... so that may have been the only one of his career for all I know).

*Retired his hook shot (which he named the 'Lazy Susan') when Bill Russell entered the league because Bill Russell 'caught' it in mid-air.

*Although a finesse offensive player, he was an exceptional and physical rebounder, averaged over 17.5 eTRB% (regular season... playoffs not calculated yet)

*He made a concerted effort to 'catch' and gather offensive rebounds before going back up, rather than tip them in for more accuracy and for drawing more 3 point play opportunities.

*He was not a good ball handler, 1 dribble was secure and most of his drives on film appear to be 1 dribble, 2 dribbles was his max on drives before he felt he would get in trouble - 3 he's quoted as saying he'd be 'in trouble' - as such relied on screens, passes and teammates being coached to be in the right places at the right time to best move him around the floor with the ball. He did however, have a quick first step and his '1-2 dribbles' could be done with either hand so he could go in either direction. He also was very mobile and on film appears to cover quite a lot of ground with those 1-2 dribbles.

*He was particularly good at moving without the ball - knowing when his man got caught looking in the other direction and making eye contact with his teammates so he'd get easy points.

*He was (according to opponents) 'protected' by the refs (thus helping him get to the line so many times).

Darryl Imhoff doesn't seem to be all that convinced he'd be 'great' in the modern era based on an interview I've got, he makes an effort to refer to Pettit as great 'for his time' and seems to separate him from the crop of 60's players like Oscar and West etc who in that same interview, he seems to express and feel would be great basically no matter when/where they played. However, other players such as Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson feel Pettit would have been great against modern players. So the opinions on him from his peers and contemporaries varies. Bob Pettit himself seems to feel or talk as if he could play just fine in the modern game, however he points out he'd be a 'different player' with (as stated earlier) a 260lb frame rather than a 245lb frame and he feels he'd be a better ball handler because players today also work at that so much from a young age - and he seems to express a general attitude that his skills that he developed for his time were only limited by the opportunities of his era not by his potential.

Here's some footage (still a WIP) of the mix I've been working on demonstrating a lot of what I'm describing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0WlNZBP64A

[Psileas]

*Nothing came easy to him, he got cut from his HS team twice, and from his sophomore HS year on he claims he practiced 6 hours a day every day for the next 10 years to improve his game.

Wait, I thought nobody played basketball back then and that his size and natural talent alone would be enough to warrant him GOAT status over the weak competition...


6-8.25 w/o shoes on, 210lbs rookie. Played as a traditional hook shooting pivot center in the NCAA but was considered to small to play center against pros so from day 1 his coach made him play (and learn from scratch) forward position and face-up skills in the NBA.

He should have replied "come on, coach, even the NBA's full of 6'5 midget centers!"...

[CavaliersFTW]

Wait, I thought nobody played basketball back then and that his size and natural talent alone would be enough to warrant him GOAT status over the weak competition...



He should have replied "come on, coach, even the NBA's full of 6'5 midget centers!"...
:oldlol:

[jongib369]

Some things about Bob Pettit I'm learning:

*Nothing came easy to him, he got cut from his HS team twice, and from his sophomore HS year on he claims he practiced 6 hours a day every day for the next 10 years to improve his game.

*6-8.25 w/o shoes on, 210lbs rookie. Played as a traditional hook shooting pivot center in the NCAA but was considered to small to play center against pros so from day 1 his coach made him play (and learn from scratch) forward position and face-up skills in the NBA. After his 2nd season (and first MVP - leading league in scoring and rebounding) he began lifting weights to get stronger because he felt it was the only thing from that point on he could do to get 'better'. He eventually filled out to 245lbs. He claims if he played 'today' he'd have started weight lifting younger like everyone else does and would definitely play at '260' rather than '245'.

*He was a 'finesse' player offensively, he was a 'big' but scored by driving and shooting rather than banging in the post and was always baiting defenses to send him to the FT line. He only needed to take a few jump shots a game, as the rest of his points and field goals came from Free Throws (about 10-12pts a game on FT's alone) and offensive rebounds (another 8-10pts a game). Players who played with/against him also claim he never dunked the ball (there is a clip of him doing so in the '65 ASG - but that could just be to entertain his home crowd in St Louis during his final season... so that may have been the only one of his career for all I know).

*Retired his hook shot (which he named the 'Lazy Susan') when Bill Russell entered the league because Bill Russell 'caught' it in mid-air.

*Although a finesse offensive player, he was an exceptional and physical rebounder, averaged over 17.5 eTRB% (regular season... playoffs not calculated yet)

*He made a concerted effort to 'catch' and gather offensive rebounds before going back up, rather than tip them in for more accuracy and for drawing more 3 point play opportunities.

*He was not a good ball handler, 1 dribble was secure and most of his drives on film appear to be 1 dribble, 2 dribbles was his max on drives before he felt he would get in trouble - 3 he's quoted as saying he'd be 'in trouble' - as such relied on screens, passes and teammates being coached to be in the right places at the right time to best move him around the floor with the ball. He did however, have a quick first step and his '1-2 dribbles' could be done with either hand so he could go in either direction. He also was very mobile and on film appears to cover quite a lot of ground with those 1-2 dribbles.

*He was particularly good at moving without the ball - knowing when his man got caught looking in the other direction and making eye contact with his teammates so he'd get easy points.

*He was (according to opponents) 'protected' by the refs (thus helping him get to the line so many times).

Darryl Imhoff doesn't seem to be all that convinced he'd be 'great' in the modern era based on an interview I've got, he makes an effort to refer to Pettit as great 'for his time' and seems to separate him from the crop of 60's players like Oscar and West etc who in that same interview, he seems to express and feel would be great basically no matter when/where they played. However, other players such as Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson feel Pettit would have been great against modern players. So the opinions on him from his peers and contemporaries varies. Bob Pettit himself seems to feel or talk as if he could play just fine in the modern game, however he points out he'd be a 'different player' with (as stated earlier) a 260lb frame rather than a 245lb frame and he feels he'd be a better ball handler because players today also work at that so much from a young age - and he seems to express a general attitude that his skills that he developed for his time were only limited by the opportunities of his era not by his potential.

Here's some footage (still a WIP) of the mix I've been working on demonstrating a lot of what I'm describing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0WlNZBP64A
Could you give the link to that interview?

[CavaliersFTW]

Experimenting with another style music track - taking a page out of 'draftexpress' profile videos - please let me know what you guys think:
http://youtu.be/LFT-ctpbGAE

So should I stick with an 'Epic' music theme like I usually do or do these draftexpress-style beats fit better?

[pudman13]

So should I stick with an 'Epic' music theme like I usually do or do these draftexpress-style beats fit better?

My opinion---it's distracting--makes it harder to hear the interviews, and also seems odd to have a video about a player from that era with modern music, especially the drum machine. That said, this is a really great compilation.

By the way--I just realized something about Pettit. I think it's not coincidental that his FG% started to rise at the exact time he started playing with Lenny Wilkens.

[CavaliersFTW]

My opinion---it's distracting--makes it harder to hear the interviews, and also seems odd to have a video about a player from that era with modern music, especially the drum machine. That said, this is a really great compilation.

By the way--I just realized something about Pettit. I think it's not coincidental that his FG% started to rise at the exact time he started playing with Lenny Wilkens.
Okay so this is the exact same series of clips, with the more cinematic/epic theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a9ZQHKvYtE

better, or worse?

[pudman13]

In my opinion it's better, pretty much perfect, but I'm not exactly your average NBA fan. Then again, with a Pettit comp the average modern NBA fan is probably not your expected audience anyway.

[CavaliersFTW]

In my opinion it's better, pretty much perfect, but I'm not exactly your average NBA fan. Then again, with a Pettit comp the average modern NBA fan is probably not your expected audience anyway.
Okay I'll stick with the epic/cinematic tracks for his mix then, thanks for the feedback :cheers: