1990 Jordan vs 2009 Lebron

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pretty interesting comparison. Both players lost in the conference finals and this was kind of the turning point for both as players. Jordan became less ball dominant and added the 3 point shot while Lebron improved his shooting and defense.

I've seen dozens of 1990 Jordan games and I'm taking MJ because I prefer his less ball dominant style. He was getting an effortless 30-40 points back then and he was a better shooter because of how much more consistent his mid-range game was. His superior off the ball play made his scoring come more in the flow of the offense. Plus, he was better defensively. Whatever difference there was as rebounders I feel is negligible and would have little difference on the outcome of a game. I think Lebron is a better passer, though.

But I want to see if someone wants to argue for Lebron, particularly since we have a better idea of what an accomplishment it was for Lebron to lead that Cavs team to 66 wins and how much he raised his game in the playoffs. I'd say Jordan had more talent, even in relative to era and he only 55 games compared to Lebron's 66, but he also took a championship Piston team that was better than he '09 to 7 games.

Here are the numbers

Jordan
Regular Season- 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 3 TO, 2.8 spg, 0.7 bpg, 52.6 FG%, 37.6 3P%, 60.6 TS%, 84.8 FT%, 39 mpg
Playoffs- 36.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.8 apg, 3.5 TO, 2.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 51.4 FG%, 32 3P%, 83.6 FT%, 59.2 TS%, 42.1 mpg

Average defensive rating in 1990- 108.1

Defensive rating of the teams he faced in the played in the playoffs
Detroit- 103.5
Milwaukee- 108.1
Philadelphia- 108.4

Lebron
Regular Season- 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, 3 TO, 1.7 spg, 1.2 bpg, 48.9 FG%, 34.4 3P%, 78 FT%, 59.1 TS%, 37.7 mpg
Playoffs- 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.7 TO, 1.6 spg, 0.9 bpg, 51 FG%, 33.3 3P%, 74.9 FT%, 41.4 mpg

Average defensive rating in 2009- 108.3

Defensive rating of the teams he faced in the played in the playoffs
Orlando- 101.9
Atlanta- 107.6
Detroit- 108.0

In general, I'd be interested to hear how close most people think this is. I think Lebron may be better suited to carry a team of defenders and shooters to more regular season wins, but I think Jordan's skillset was better for more different teams and for playoff basketball in general.

[Collie]

I feel that a superstar has a much more central role these days, than during 1990. That 66 win season is a weird outlier for me. I'm pretty sure that you transport that very team to 1990, and they won't be as successful.

That said, Lebron was close, but 1988-1993 MJ was perhaps the best basketball player of all time.

[A.R.T]

the magic team that kobe thrashed in the finals had a better defensive rating than the acclaimed 'bad boy' pistons? mj stans can't be happy about that :oldlol:

[asdf1990]

the magic team that kobe thrashed in the finals had a better defensive rating than the acclaimed 'bad boy' pistons? mj stans can't be happy about that :oldlol:

let me know when a team designs specific rules to stop kobe. It's so easy to stop kobe, just tell him his playing in the finals and he will brick non stop.
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3306/michaeljordantrophies.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

I feel that a superstar has a much more central role these days, than during 1990. That 66 win season is a weird outlier for me. I'm pretty sure that you transport that very team to 1990, and they won't be as successful.

That said, Lebron was close, but 1988-1993 MJ was perhaps the best basketball player of all time.

Well, teams were more stacked in 1990 than 2009 in general, so Lebron with that exact same roster would be less successful, so to make it fair, you'd have to give him the equivalent of that in 1990, not necessarily the same talent level, but the same talent level compared to the league.

While I think the average player has continued to get better, and will continue to get better, due to expansion, we started seeing less stacked teams, and certainly nothing compared to how stacked teams were in the 80's.


the magic team that kobe thrashed in the finals had a better defensive rating than the acclaimed 'bad boy' pistons? mj stans can't be happy about that :oldlol:

Well, Orlando's strategy was different. For example, they wanted a superstar to try to beat them on their own. That's why the league's best perimeter players put up such great numbers vs them.

Regular Season
Wade vs Orlando- 38 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.3 apg, 52.6 FG%, 4 games
Lebron vs Orlando- 30.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 7 apg, 43.2 FG%, 3 games
Kobe- 34.5 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 7 apg, 42.1 FG%, 2 games
Brandon Roy- 28.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.5 apg, 47.6 FG%, 2 games

And of course Lebron put up 39/8/8 vs them in the conference finals.

And honestly, I wouldn't say Kobe "thrashed" Orlando either, the Lakers did, but after game 1 when Kobe destroyed Orlando, his series didn't stand out much. He had a good series, though.

[Harison]

Lebron is remarkable player, but he isnt Jordan's caliber. Swap their teams, and Jordan would win it all with 60+w Cavs, while Lebron wont win with most of Bulls teams.

[alenleomessi]

Lebron is remarkable player, but he isnt Jordan's caliber. Swap their teams, and Jordan would win it all with 60+w Cavs, while Lebron wont win with most of Bulls teams.
I really doubt that, probably not even peak Shaq can win with that crappy cast

[madmax]

Lebron is remarkable player, but he isnt Jordan's caliber. Swap their teams, and Jordan would win it all with 60+w Cavs, while Lebron wont win with most of Bulls teams.

what makes you believe His Airness would drag those scrub squads into the title other than your biased opinion?

[Harison]

I really doubt that, probably not even peak Shaq can win with that crappy cast
Cavs werent crappy, just underutilized by coach and Lebron. Remember what happened when Lebron went all out against Celtics in Gm3? Old guys were blown away, thats what would happen with Jordan too, just every game.

[moe94]

People don't want to admit it because it's peak Jordan we're talking about, but the fact that they're even comparable speaks volumes about Lebron. He won't be fully appreciated until he's gone. For all my money, Lebron is far and away the best swingman to come into this league since Jordan. Wade is second with Kobe being third. Nothing against the Bean seeing as he's my favorite player of all time. I used to treat that Kobe Bryant Courtside like the holy grail.

[magnax1]

Not that terribly close. Jordan played against a lot better teams in every round. Lebron got his 35 points a game in the playoffs against a pistons team that didn't care at all, an extremely depleted 46 win Hawks team, and against Orlando who couldn't defend the perimeter at all.
Not a Knock on Lebron, but this isn't really a close comparison. He wasn't as good of a scorer, defender, or passer. The only thing he was better at was rebounding.

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron:(

[rodman91]

Rookie Jordan > 2009 Lebron. Sorry, Lebron is great but when i watch Rookie MJ vs Dr.J,Barkley&Malone...For 1990 Jordan.. its not even argument.

[Bigsmoke]

Not that terribly close. Jordan played against a lot better teams in every round. Lebron got his 35 points a game in the playoffs against a pistons team that didn't care at all, an extremely depleted 46 win Hawks team, and against Orlando who couldn't defend the perimeter at all.
Not a Knock on Lebron, but this isn't really a close comparison. He wasn't as good of a scorer, defender, or passer. The only thing he was better at was rebounding.

MJ played with better teamates that season too.

[magnax1]

MJ played with better teamates that season too.
Not by much, if any. Either way it doesn't matter in a player vs player comparison, my point was that Lebron's competition made it pretty easy for him to get those crazy stats.

[Bigsmoke]

Rookie Jordan > 2009 Lebron. Sorry, Lebron is great but when i watch Rookie MJ vs Dr.J,Barkley&Malone...For 1990 Jordan.. its not even argument.

actually, i think playing against Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq is tougher.

[Bigsmoke]

Not by much, if any. Either way it doesn't matter in a player vs player comparison, my point was that Lebron's competition made it pretty easy for him to get those crazy stats.

i do not feel that way. The Pace is faster in MJs era and points allowed is fewer in Lebron's I think Lebron just being ridiculously good is the case why his stats were that sexy. I was born in 1988 so i dont how rough it is back then but numbers alone tell me there was a lot of points allowed

[magnax1]

i do not feel that way. The Pace is faster in MJs era and points allowed is fewer in Lebron's I think Lebron just being ridiculously good is the case why his stats were that sexy. I was born in 1988 so i dont how rough it is back then but numbers alone tell me there was a lot of points allowed
I'm not saying that the overall league was better in 90, but that the teams that Lebron played were considerably worse then the teams Jordan played, and I don't think that's really debatable. If Jordan was being guarded by Pietrus Hedo and Courtney lee, there is no way he doesn't put up some of the most insane #s of all time.

[andgar923]

any MJ>>>>> any version of Bron until now and possibly the near future

Again... there are so many things that Mj does better than Bron that don't show up in the stats sheet, and that the numbers don't necessarily reflect.

That isn't a knock on Bron just the truth.

The way Mj can completely frustrate defenders with his off the ball movement and footwork, over Bron standing at the top of the key dribbling and dribbling and eventually shooting jumpers.

MJ on the block posting up over Bron in any capacity.

And MJ was a better driver and finisher as well.

[andgar923]

actually, i think playing against Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq is tougher.

Why?

This is a TEAM game.

Something some of today's generation of fans don't seem to grasp.

MJ wasn't gonna be guarded by Duncan or Shaq was he?

Wade and Kobe aren't gonna be isolated against him all game on both ends of the floor are they?

Teams back then were just overall better, regardless of what their stats showed, or how many highlights the players had showing in ESPN every night.

[magnax1]

I think this year is as good as any year Lebron has had so far. I think he's setting himself up for a really beastly playoff, and won't have to keep the ball away from his team mates to do it. Just about everything you'd want Lebron to do he's done it this year, even post up, though he sucks at it.

[rodman91]

the magic team that kobe thrashed in the finals had a better defensive rating than the acclaimed 'bad boy' pistons? mj stans can't be happy about that :oldlol:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20Reaction/Finger%20Wagging/to.gif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/276264_o.gif :facepalm

[Indian guy]

I would take 08-09 and 09-10 LeBron over ALL versions of non-1st 3peat MJ.

[catch24]

Not that terribly close. Jordan played against a lot better teams in every round. Lebron got his 35 points a game in the playoffs against a pistons team that didn't care at all, an extremely depleted 46 win Hawks team, and against Orlando who couldn't defend the perimeter at all.
Not a Knock on Lebron, but this isn't really a close comparison. He wasn't as good of a scorer, defender, or passer. The only thing he was better at was rebounding.

Best reply in the OP, imo. Jordan faced better teams - I think what really separates the two is what MJ did against the Pistons. Freak individual series against the best defensive team in the league.


I would take 08-09 and 09-10 LeBron over ALL versions of non-1st 3peat MJ.

lol

[Bigsmoke]

I would take 08-09 and 09-10 LeBron over ALL versions of non-1st 3peat MJ.

HELL NO.

I dont think Lebron was better than MJ but I think Lebron in 2009 had a better season than Jordan had in 1990 because of winning 66 games and his numbers in that Magic series. But MJ in that Blazers series would own dude

[rodman91]

actually, i think playing against Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq is tougher.

But Philly squad had them all 3.. He faced Bird's celtics,Magic's Lakers,Isiah's Pistons,Hakeem's Rockets and more in rookie year and did quite well against them.

Rookie Jordan had most creative scoring and also efficent too.IMO, only Dr.J had such crazy moves near to rim.He was more focus on defense with great stealing ability.Extremely fast and agile, better slasher with amazing leaping ability.Better post scorer (Of course much worse than 90's Jordan) His stats almost same with Lebron.

I would say Lebron over many great players but Jordan was a freak of nature too just like Lebron.

I think his Rookie year more close than 1990's Jordan.Jordan was at prime that time and had no weakness in his game that time.(even his 3 points were okay-probably only area he is not great in his game)

[Fatstogie]

lol does no one see how dumb these thread are?

Lebron would crush him physically and take his ass to the rim. And jordan could do exactly what everyone else does to stop him, nothing.

[Indian guy]

my point was that Lebron's competition made it pretty easy for him to get those crazy stats.

LeBron's 3 opponents averaged 49 wins to MJ's 53. Average defensive rank of LeBron's opponents was 10 to MJ's 11(in a 27-team league). So I'm not really getting this 'weak competition' talk. They went up against similar competition.

[donald_trump]

Rookie Jordan > 2009 Lebron. Sorry, Lebron is great but when i watch Rookie MJ vs Dr.J,Barkley&Malone...For 1990 Jordan.. its not even argument.

this is exactly why these questions about lebron shouldnt even be asked at this point.

no one is going to be rational. they'll say jordan>lebron whenever even if not the case. they'll bring up quitting, no heart, etc. dont bother. it will be completely different when lebron is no longer in the league.


though to answer your question, i never though id see a player as good as jordan or shaq in terms of peak, but yes, i think lebron is just as good as those two. his last few years have a case for being some of the greatest years in basketball history along with shaq, jordan, wilt and bird.

[tpols]

LeBron's 3 opponents averaged 49 wins to MJ's 53. Not a significant difference. MJ's opponents also had a worse defensive rank.
What are lebron's statistics against 50 win teams in the playoffs again?:oldlol:

He cant beat on the over the hill pistons and wizards all his career lol..

[Papaya Petee]

Rookie Jordan > 2009 Lebron. Sorry, Lebron is great but when i watch Rookie MJ vs Dr.J,Barkley&Malone...For 1990 Jordan.. its not even argument.
Do you realize how retarded you sound right now?

[donald_trump]

any MJ>>>>> any version of Bron until now and possibly the near future

And MJ was a better driver and finisher as well.

once again, more irrational garbage being spewed up by moron posters.

[Indian guy]

lol

What's so funny?

[Papaya Petee]

Ehh, all the older posters will do whatever it takes to boost up the old stars compared to the players now. For those saying Any Jordan > Any LeBron, they just sound dumb, and no reason to argue with them because you won't change their minds.

Yes, they put up nearly identical numbers, nearly identical team success, near identical defensive players, yet its not even close, :rolleyes:

[Bigsmoke]

But Philly squad had them all 3.. He faced Bird's celtics,Magic's Lakers,Isiah's Pistons,Hakeem's Rockets and more in rookie year and did quite well against them.

Rookie Jordan had most creative scoring and also efficent too.IMO, only Dr.J had such crazy moves near to rim.He was more focus on defense with great stealing ability.Extremely fast and agile, better slasher with amazing leaping ability.Better post scorer (Of course much worse than 90's Jordan) His stats almost same with Lebron.

I would say Lebron over many great players but Jordan was a freak of nature too just like Lebron.

I think his Rookie year more close than 1990's Jordan.Jordan was at prime that time and had no weakness in his game that time.(even his 3 points were okay-probably only area he is not great in his game)

dont give me wrong, MJ had to face teams that had multiple HOFers and rings but lets not act like Lebron its playing in 1999. Besides the Magic, all of the teams Lebron lost to in the playoffs won titles "Pistons, Spurs, and Celtics" Lets be for real, were there any teams Jordan has faced in the Finals that was as challenging to beat than the Spurs in 2007?

[BuGzBuNNy]

Stats (mathematically) Adjusted. I did 2010 Lebron as well.

1990 Regular Season
....Jordan- 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 52.6 FG%, 39.0 mpg
09 Lebron- 30.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 8.5 apg, 50.7 FG%, 37.7 mpg
10 Lebron- 31.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 10.1 apg, 51.9 FG%, 39.0 mpg

2009 Regular Season
Lebron- 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, 48.9 FG%, 37.7 mpg
Jordan- 31.4 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.3 apg, 50.7 FG%, 39.0 mpg

2010 Regular Season
Lebron- 29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, 50.3 FG%, 39.0 mpg
Jordan- 31.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 50.9 FG%, 39.0 mpg

[rodman91]

this is exactly why these questions about lebron shouldnt even be asked at this point.

no one is going to be rational. they'll say jordan>lebron whenever even if not the case. they'll bring up quitting, no heart, etc. dont bother. it will be completely different when lebron is no longer in the league.


though to answer your question, i never though id see a player as good as jordan or shaq in terms of peak, but yes, i think lebron is just as good as those two. his last few years have a case for being some of the greatest years in basketball history along with shaq, jordan, wilt and bird.


I agree.I'm definetly not hater or crazy Jordan Fan.I really love Lebron's game. (It looks ugly,no smooth at all but its really rare to find such all around dominance) However comparing to Jordan isn't fair.Jordan at peak had no weakness at all. (even his 3 point shooting were okay) Until Lebron magically develop best post game for a wing player,become one of the best perimeter defence player,one of the best at stealing and keep his athletism..then i can compare.

It doesn't mean Lebron is joke or not become one of the best.But Jordan put that bar so high.He had no weakness at his game.You can find some weakness for greatest players of all time but Jordan didn't have. Only his 3pts were not great.And thats not a weakness.Its really one of only.Such freak of nature with great versality and almost one of the greatest all of that.Probably Shaq would be similar if he had Hakeem's versality and skill in such superior body.

[madmax]

Jordan stans are some of the most insecure bunch ever met on internet...only some of the Kome crazies can rival these loons in delusion. Saying things like that Jordan was a "perfect" player (a term which doesn't even exist in real life) is about as retarded as you get. Funny how all those sexy stats of his couldn't bring His Airness over the hump untill Phil Jackson and Pip appeared and made his status "immortal". I'd say Jordan is easily the most mystified superstar of all time - but what can you expect from the generation of Space Jam tards really?:rolleyes:

[rodman91]

Do you realize how retarded you sound right now?

No,not all.28.2 ppg,6.5rpg,5.9apg,2.4 spg,51.5 FG%.In a league Bird,Magic,Kareem,Dr.J,Moses Malone,Isiah Thomas roamed.His rookie year more comparable than his 1990. If you consider he wasn't good at outside shooting. 1990's Jordan superior than any year of Lebron almost at everything.Rookie Jordan is more fair.

[az00m]

compare 88-89 with lebron 9/10

[Jacks3]

2009 LeBron> Any version of Jordan.

It's extraordinary how underrated he's become. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

He wasn't as good of a scorer, defender, or passer. The only thing he was better at was rebounding.

I don't see how Jordan was a better passer. Better scorer and defender? Yeah.


Rookie Jordan > 2009 Lebron. Sorry, Lebron is great but when i watch Rookie MJ vs Dr.J,Barkley&Malone...For 1990 Jordan.. its not even argument.

Rookie Jordan? :oldlol: Not even close. Dr. J was 34 and a 20/5/3 player by that point and Barkley was a rookie putting up 14/9 in 29 mpg.


Not by much, if any. Either way it doesn't matter in a player vs player comparison, my point was that Lebron's competition made it pretty easy for him to get those crazy stats.

It's never pretty easy to get 39/8/8 in a playoff series on 49% shooting or 35/9/7 on 51% shooting for 3 playoff series.


I would take 08-09 and 09-10 LeBron over ALL versions of non-1st 3peat MJ.

The only version of Jordan I might take over 1990 Jordan is 1991, and really, the difference that year was a better cast and a worse Detroit team in the ECF than the previous year. 1992 MJ is right up there too, his 3 year peak IMO was '90-'92.


HELL NO.

I dont think Lebron was better than MJ but I think Lebron in 2009 had a better season than Jordan had in 1990 because of winning 66 games and his numbers in that Magic series. But MJ in that Blazers series would own dude

Actually, Jordan put up even crazier stats vs Philly in 1990 than Lebron did vs Orlando. 43 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 7.4 apg vs a 53-29 Sixer team


Stats (mathematically) Adjusted. I did 2010 Lebron as well.

1990 Regular Season
....Jordan- 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 52.6 FG%, 39.0 mpg
09 Lebron- 30.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 8.5 apg, 50.7 FG%, 37.7 mpg
10 Lebron- 31.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 10.1 apg, 51.9 FG%, 39.0 mpg

2009 Regular Season
Lebron- 28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, 48.9 FG%, 37.7 mpg
Jordan- 31.4 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.3 apg, 50.7 FG%, 39.0 mpg

2010 Regular Season
Lebron- 29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, 50.3 FG%, 39.0 mpg
Jordan- 31.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 50.9 FG%, 39.0 mpg

I really don't think this is an accurate way to compare. Jordan's Bulls pace dropped by 4 possessions per 48 in the playoffs and his numbers increased from 34/7/6 to 37/7/7 on pretty close to the same efficiency.

His numbers may drop a bit playing at a snail's pace like Lebron's '09 Cavs, but pace makes a much bigger difference for superstars in extreme situations(Run TMC, 80's Nuggets ect.). Not as much when there have been numerous teams in recent years to play pretty much at the Bulls 1990 pace or faster.

When comparing numbers, the fact that Lebron was more ball dominant could also be brought up.

If the pace dropped, I'm not sure that Jordan would lose much production if any, because I don't see him getting the ball much less when Pippen was his only teammate who could consistently create his own shot in the halfcourt on that 1990 team. The rest of the players were shooters or finishers.

[az00m]

2009 LeBron> Any version of Jordan.

It's extraordinary how underrated he's become. :oldlol:

How do you see 2009 lebron better than than 89 jordan?

32.5/8/8/3 is closes too triple double average in 30 years

[Harison]

no one is going to be rational. they'll say jordan>lebron whenever even if not the case. they'll bring up quitting, no heart, etc. dont bother. it will be completely different when lebron is no longer in the league.

though to answer your question, i never though id see a player as good as jordan or shaq in terms of peak, but yes, i think lebron is just as good as those two. his last few years have a case for being some of the greatest years in basketball history along with shaq, jordan, wilt and bird.
Unless Lebron delivers extraordinary performance and wins against elite defensive teams, his legacy wont be much different now and after he finishes his career. And once again no, Lebron isnt close to prime MJ and Shaq, to say LBJ is "as good as" is a prime example of homerism or ignorance.

[YouCallILose]

How do you see 2009 lebron better than than 89 jordan?

32.5/8/8/3 is closet too triple double average in 30 years

Nah Magic averaged

21/9/8.9
16/10/8.5
21/8.3/8.3

during his career in different seasons.

[rodman91]

dont give me wrong, MJ had to face teams that had multiple HOFers and rings but lets not act like Lebron its playing in 1999. Besides the Magic, all of the teams Lebron lost to in the playoffs won titles "Pistons, Spurs, and Celtics" Lets be for real, were there any teams Jordan has faced in the Finals that was as challenging to beat than the Spurs in 2007?

Almost all teams Jordan's faced were better or as good as Spurs.However Jordan's bulls in finals were superior teams than Lebron had.Barkley & KJ Suns,Magic's Lakers,Drexler's Blazers,Kemp&Payton's Sonics,Malone&Stockton's Jazz all of them great teams.(Not the level of 80's Celtics & Lakers) Don't get me wrong, Lebron when he will retired, he will be remembered as one of the best ever.And its normal Cavs lost that finals.
I usually compare players in versality and how good at those skills.Team success is realiable to your teammates,coach & opponents.Who knows maybe if Mavs could reach the finals again in 2007, Lebron would have ring.Or if Pistons didn't blocked the path of Bulls they could get one before 91.

Today you can still find some weakness at Lebron's game.Post game,Jumper,Clutchness,perimeter defense,stay in focus...1990's Jordan you can only say his 3points shot wasn't great. (and he was shooting at 37% that year :lol )

[rodman91]

Jordan stans are some of the most insecure bunch ever met on internet...only some of the Kome crazies can rival these loons in delusion. Saying things like that Jordan was a "perfect" player (a term which doesn't even exist in real life) is about as retarded as you get. Funny how all those sexy stats of his couldn't bring His Airness over the hump untill Phil Jackson and Pip appeared and made his status "immortal". I'd say Jordan is easily the most mystified superstar of all time - but what can you expect from the generation of Space Jam tards really?:rolleyes:

If you are talking about what i wrote..
What was jordan's weakness? (except 3 points and he wasn't bad at it in his prime )

I can tell many about Lebron and many other greats. (By the way i consider Lebron as a great player,im not a hater at all.)

[madmax]

If you are talking about what i wrote..
What was jordan's weakness? (except 3 points and he wasn't bad at it in his prime )

I can tell many about Lebron and many other greats. (By the way i consider Lebron as a great player,im not a hater at all.)

a "perfect" player makes 100 % of his shots, never commits a turnover and never loses a basketball game in his career. In other words, such player doesn't exist. And Jordan had plenty of weaknesses - apart from three point shot, he was quite a selfish shotjacker early in his career (untill Tex Winter implemented triangle offense and was able to keep Jordan's huge ego in check). Most if not all of his huge scoring games were loses (meaning he didn't have as much impact on the game as numbers suggest). Now if you look at Lebron and his huge games, you'll notice the difference that basically all of them led his team to a victory. In other words, Lebron impacts the game more when he dedicates himself to scoring and taking over. Here ya go.:cheers:

[PowerGlove]

Statistically it's pretty close. Jordan had better everything else. He had a better team and a better coach.

[rodman91]

Rookie Jordan? :oldlol: Not even close. Dr. J was 34 and a 20/5/3 player by that point and Barkley was a rookie putting up 14/9 in 29 mpg.


It was just one team.Bird's Celtics,Magic&Kareem's Lakers,Isiah's Pistons and many more.

Tell me why its not close? Jordan put almost as good as numbers Lebron had in 2009.Team success is not realiable if you consider teams,players,rules were different.

I can say Rookie Jordan had some better skillls over Lebron's. Lebron was better at some others.However for 1990's Jordan..he was almost superior at every level than Lebron.

Rookie jordan better to compare Lebron.Until Lebron becomes one of the best post offense,perimeter defense and clutch player with today's athletism ,i can't compare with 1990's Jordan.

[Fatal9]

Jordan is the better individual player (less weaknesses) but I just can't see a situation where LeBron wins any less than Jordan would with the same team.

[rodman91]

a "perfect" player makes 100 % of his shots, never commits a turnover and never loses a basketball game in his career. In other words, such player doesn't exist. And Jordan had plenty of weaknesses - apart from three point shot, he was quite a selfish shotjacker early in his career (untill Tex Winter implemented triangle offense and was able to keep Jordan's huge ego in check). Most if not all of his huge scoring games were loses (meaning he didn't have as much impact on the game as numbers suggest). Now if you look at Lebron and his huge games, you'll notice the difference that basically all of them led his team to a victory. In other words, Lebron impacts the game more when he dedicates himself to scoring and taking over. Here ya go.:cheers:

Only Oden can be that "perfect" player as long as stay off court:lol
If he impacts game more when he dedicates i would definetely question his focus & heart.
Three point shooting his weakness in first years but in 1990's he was shooting at 37 %FG and he was on 3 point contest. (Im not delusional, i know he has never been great 3 point shooter but he wasn't that bad as people say.)
About selfishness,he was averaging 6 assists as a player who has much more scoring mentality than Lebron. And Lets not forget Lebron plays Point-Forward.When Jordan had to play as point guard he hold the ball more.

"On March 25, Michael began a run of 10 triple doubles in 11 games, including 7 straight before missing one against the Pistons where he had 40 points, 11 assists, and 7 rebounds. He would finish the season with 15 triple doubles, 3 shy of Magic Johnson

[Micku]

In general, I'd be interested to hear how close most people think this is. I think Lebron may be better suited to carry a team of defenders and shooters to more regular season wins, but I think Jordan's skillset was better for more different teams and for playoff basketball in general.

In stats, they are pretty close.

But they played different and hurt teams differently. Jordan played off the ball more, played on by posting up sometimes on the right or left side,and played in the system where you everyone touch the ball.

LeBron played in a system where he was the PG of the team, controlling the flow of offense by constantly handling the ball.

Jordan had more ways of hurting you and was more of a complete player. And LBJ was very hard to stop that year.

[Fatal9]

It was just one team.Bird's Celtics,Magic&Kareem's Lakers,Isiah's Pistons and many more.

Tell me why its not close? Jordan put almost as good as numbers Lebron had in 2009.Team success is not realiable if you consider teams,players,rules were different.

I can say Rookie Jordan had some better skillls over Lebron's. Lebron was better at some others.However for 1990's Jordan..he was almost superior at every level than Lebron.

Rookie jordan better to compare Lebron.Until Lebron becomes one of the best post offense,perimeter defense and clutch player with today's athletism ,i can't compare with 1990's Jordan.
so dumb :facepalm

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Jordan is the better individual player (less weaknesses) but I just can't see a situation where LeBron wins any less than Jordan would with the same team.
Who in their right mind would take LeBron over Jordan. Have you not see LeBron's poor performance after poor performance in the clutch especially his inability to make free throws when it matters.

[rodman91]

so dumb :facepalm

Reasons?

[chazzy]

I think Lebron could squeeze out as many, if not more, regular season wins out of a similar cast than Jordan. But I would trust Jordan's dominance at both ends and style of play to be more conducive to winning against tough playoff teams. Stats don't tell you how often Lebron gets the ball in a half court set, dribbles back to the halfcourt line before making his move, stagnating the offense. He produces just as well when doing that, but I feel that Jordan made quicker decisions with the ball and created plays within a better offensive flow. Better man and help defender, and a more versatile offensive game that can adjust to what the defenses give him better.

The gap isn't as large as people think though. The fact that we're having a discussion comparing someone to arguably peak Jordan tells you how good Lebron was in 09.

[rodman91]

Who in their right mind would take LeBron over Jordan. Have you not see LeBron's poor performance after poor performance in the clutch especially his inability to make free throws when it matters.

It amazes me how they are comparable when Lebron have some major weakness.POST OFFENSE & DEFENSE. :no:

Except being larger size Lebron has no category he is better than 1990's Jordan.I know,it might sound like disrespect to Lebron but true.

[rodman91]

I think Lebron could squeeze out as many, if not more, regular season wins out of a similar cast than Jordan. But I would trust Jordan's dominance at both ends and style of play to be more conducive to winning against tough playoff teams. Stats don't tell you how often Lebron gets the ball in a half court set, dribbles back to the halfcourt line before making his move, stagnating the offense. He produces just as well when doing that, but I feel that Jordan made quicker decisions with the ball and created plays within a better offensive flow. Better man and help defender, and a more versatile offensive game that can adjust to what the defenses give him better.

The gap isn't as large as people think though. The fact that we're having a discussion comparing someone to arguably peak Jordan tells you how good Lebron was in 09.

I don't go with the hype :oldlol: Lebron is great but he has major weakness.Until he develops one of the greatest post offense,jumper & perimeter defense, he is not near Jordan's prime years.

[che guevara]

Who in their right mind would take LeBron over Jordan. Have you not see LeBron's poor performance after poor performance in the clutch especially his inability to make free throws when it matters.
People still believe this shit? Not that I think 2009 Lebron is as good as 1990 Jordan but this is just flat out not true. He's been one of, if not the best clutch player in the league since 2008. And for clutch FT shooting (clutch defined as last 5 minutes of a game, score within 5 points):

2008: 71% season, 79% clutch
2009: 78% season, 85% clutch
2010: 77% season, 80% clutch
2011: 76% season, 89% clutch (according to Windhorst of ESPN), and if you make it the last minute instead of last 5, he's made 21 of 22 FTs. The only one he's missed in the last minute of a close game was the one against Boston.

[GP_20]

Today you can still find some weakness at Lebron's game.Post game,Jumper,Clutchness,perimeter defense,stay in focus...1990's Jordan you can only say his 3points shot wasn't great. (and he was shooting at 37% that year :lol )

What was 00 or 01 Payton's weakness? He could score 20+, Top 3 rebounder for a guard, led league in 3s, All-Defensive 1st, led league in assists, could drive, could post, had a strong mid-range game, ....No weaknesses? Best guard of All-Time?

[Javat_90]

What was 00 or 01 Payton's weakness? He could score 20+, Top 3 rebounder for a guard, led league in 3s, All-Defensive 1st, led league in assists, could drive, could post, had a strong mid-range game, ....No weaknesses? Best guard of All-Time?

:lol

:applause:

[Poochymama]

Honestly I think this is a very good debate, more so than most people would like to admit. Overall I think I'd have to choose Jordan, but honestly (and I probably get negged for saying this),but 09-now Lebron is probably the best perimeter player I've seen since prime Jordan.

I'll break it down into categories and then state the positives/negatives(with respect to each other) that each brings to their respective teams.

Scoring
I feel that Lebron has a VERY slight edge in certain aspects of the scoring game, but overall most aspects of scoring are in favor of Jordan. For instance, I tend to think Lebron is slightly better at finishing once he's at the rim(Jordan was more creative, but Lebron is slightly more effective), however this is offset by the fact that Jordan was more effective at splitting the defense and actually getting to the rim(similar to Wade). Lebron is also a slightly better three point shooter, but that's about it. Where Jordan starts to pull ahead imo is where and how his scoring ability fits into an elite offense. Jordan was a MUCH better off the ball player/spot up shooter and it's really not even close. Realistically, 30 points from Jordan is better for a team than 30 points from Lebron (assuming equal efficiency) because Jordan's 30 comes more within he flow of the offense and involves the whole team to a greater degree. Even still, Jordan put up more ppg on better efficiency
34 ppg on 53%/38%/85% vs 30ppg on 50%/33%/77% so IMO Jordan gets the clear edge in scoring.

Rebounding
Lebron gets the clear nod here. He is a bigger stronger player which tends to lend itself well to rebounding. There's really not much of an argument to be made here.

Passing
While it may seem that the obvious and easy answer here is Lebron, I wouldn't be so quick to write Jordan off on this one. Lebron obviously averages more assists, but Lebron is also quite a bit more ball dominant than Jordan. Who's to say how many assists Jordan could have averaged had he held the ball in his hands as often as Lebron; if his 88-89 season is any indication, Jordan could have very well put up 8+ apg for a season. A better way to judge passing ability IMO is to actually watch the two play and see what each does better/worse. Both have great court vision, though I think Lebron's is slightly better, perhaps because he is taller. Lebron is also better at making flashy passes such as behind the back and no look passes that confuse the defense and lead to easy layups/dunks. I also think Lebron is a better transition/fast break passer. Where Jordan has him beat and makes up much of the lost ground is in fundamental passing and high IQ/last second passing. I think the it's pretty clear what I mean by fundamental passing, but let me explain the second one. While both players are great at driving in reading a double team and passing out, and Lebron does this more often, Jordan was smarter/more reactionary about it. It's almost as if Lebron gets it in his mind ahead of time what he wants to do and then acts accordingly regardless of how that action plays out, where as Jordan would do something, see that it's not working and changes the play mid stroke. Again, I'm not saying Lebron doesn't do this, just that Jordan was a little better at it. For example,
Lebron's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Jones" <----- does exactly that regardless of whether the double team actually comes.
Jordan's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Paxon" <---- double team doesn't come so he takes the wide open jumper instead
or
"I'm going to drive in, step back and take the jumper" <---- sees two hands in his face and dumps it off to Paxson/Grant

If that was a little too hard to understand, go watch the 91' finals series against LA. He literally does this exact sequence every 3 plays or so, and more often than not, it's the right decision. In fact, after watching the series again, it seems like he makes the wrong decision(ie passes out when he has an open look, or forces a shot when he doesn't) only 3 or 4 times, and I believe the commentators even say something about it. Far too often, I see players like Lebron and Kobe(to a much greater extent) force up an awkward shot over tough defense, or pass out to a shooter when they successfully created an open look for themselves, probably because they had already made their mind up on what was to be done. It's something that's not so easy to see, but it's definitely there if you're looking for it. All in all, I would still give Lebron the slight edge in passing ability, but it's a lot closer than apg would indicate. And just to clarify, this is really just 88-93 Jordan I'm talking about, 09 Lebron is clearly a better passer than rookie-88 Jordan where he had a purely score first Kobe like mentality, and clearly a better passer than second three peat Jordan where he deferred most of the passing duties to Pippen.

Defense
Like rebounding, I don't think there's much that needs to be said here. Jordan was a better on ball and help defender. Lebron is getting there, and is bigger and stronger than Jordan, but Jordan's defensive intensity was on another level.

Overall Impact
What does it all mean? What impact does this all have? Well, statistically they are very close, and I don't think pace would really change anything since it's so close. Jordan's stats would probably go up a little bit across the board if he had the ball in his hands as much as Lebron, but then again, that just wasn't his style of play. Regardless of the stats, these are two very different players, and there advantages/disadvantages for both. I think Lebron's style of play lends itself better to making a bad team good, while Jordan's style of play lends itself better to making a good team great(very similar to the way I view the Wilt/Russell debate). For instance, replacing Lebron with Jordan on the Cavs probably leads to less overall wins and maybe not even as much playoff success. On the other hand replacing Jordan with Lebron during the first three peat also leads to less wins and probably no three peat. As somewhat of an aside, I think if you were to replace current Lebron with a prime Jordan on the Heat and ran Wade at point, you'd be looking at the best record in the league, based solely on how much better Jordan's off the ball play meshes with Wade's ball dominant play.

To sum it up, it's very close but I'd have to go with Jordan because of his superior scoring,defense, and off the ball play. On the other hand, if I had a team of so-so players who I was looking to take to the playoffs with a ever so slight chance at a championship, I'd probably pick Lebron.

[rodman91]

What was 00 or 01 Payton's weakness? He could score 20+, Top 3 rebounder for a guard, led league in 3s, All-Defensive 1st, led league in assists, could drive, could post, had a strong mid-range game, ....No weaknesses? Best guard of All-Time?

First of all..He was one of the best guards of All-Time.I think u agree with me.He had almost no weakness for a point guard.However noone can consider him as the best many of those catagories.(Except defense)

Jordan had no weakness and he was almost best at many catagories. Payton has not weakness but he wasn't greatest of all time at scoring,assists,post offense,midrange game.

Not GOAT but one of the greatest guards ever.When he had Kemp Sonics was one of the best teams.He had such versality but not dominance in those skills.
I give you better example..Scottie Pippen.He had no weakness but he wasn't one of the greatest in every skill.(Except defense)

Jordan had versatility but also he was one of the greatest at those skills.Not just good or great.

Payton is very underrated.They faced 72-10 bulls and give them 2 defeats.And his teammates were worse than Jordan's.For me, he is one of the best guards of all time.

[RJChPD]

Honestly I think this is a very good debate, more so than most people would like to admit. Overall I think I'd have to choose Jordan, but honestly (and I probably get negged for saying this),but 09-now Lebron is probably the best perimeter player I've seen since prime Jordan.

I'll break it down into categories and then state the positives/negatives(with respect to each other) that each brings to their respective teams.

Scoring
I feel that Lebron has a VERY slight edge in certain aspects of the scoring game, but overall most aspects of scoring are in favor of Jordan. For instance, I tend to think Lebron is slightly better at finishing once he's at the rim(Jordan was more creative, but Lebron is slightly more effective), however this is offset by the fact that Jordan was more effective at splitting the defense and actually getting to the rim(similar to Wade). Lebron is also a slightly better three point shooter, but that's about it. Where Jordan starts to pull ahead imo is where and how his scoring ability fits into an elite offense. Jordan was a MUCH better off the ball player/spot up shooter and it's really not even close. Realistically, 30 points from Jordan is better for a team than 30 points from Lebron (assuming equal efficiency) because Jordan's 30 comes more within he flow of the offense and involves the whole team to a greater degree. Even still, Jordan put up more ppg on better efficiency
34 ppg on 53%/38%/85% vs 30ppg on 50%/33%/77% so IMO Jordan gets the clear edge in scoring.

Rebounding
Lebron gets the clear nod here. He is a bigger stronger player which tends to lend itself well to rebounding. There's really not much of an argument to be made here.

Passing
While it may seem that the obvious and easy answer here is Lebron, I wouldn't be so quick to write Jordan off on this one. Lebron obviously averages more assists, but Lebron is also quite a bit more ball dominant than Jordan. Who's to say how many assists Jordan could have averaged had he held the ball in his hands as often as Lebron; if his 88-89 season is any indication, Jordan could have very well put up 8+ apg for a season. A better way to judge passing ability IMO is to actually watch the two play and see what each does better/worse. Both have great court vision, though I think Lebron's is slightly better, perhaps because he is taller. Lebron is also better at making flashy passes such as behind the back and no look passes that confuse the defense and lead to easy layups/dunks. I also think Lebron is a better transition/fast break passer. Where Jordan has him beat and makes up much of the lost ground is in fundamental passing and high IQ/last second passing. I think the it's pretty clear what I mean by fundamental passing, but let me explain the second one. While both players are great at driving in reading a double team and passing out, and Lebron does this more often, Jordan was smarter/more reactionary about it. It's almost as if Lebron gets it in his mind ahead of time what he wants to do and then acts accordingly regardless of how that action plays out, where as Jordan would do something, see that it's not working and changes the play mid stroke. Again, I'm not saying Lebron doesn't do this, just that Jordan was a little better at it. For example,
Lebron's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Jones" <----- does exactly that regardless of whether the double team actually comes.
Jordan's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Paxon" <---- double team doesn't come so he takes the wide open jumper instead
or
"I'm going to drive in, step back and take the jumper" <---- sees two hands in his face and dumps it off to Paxson/Grant

If that was a little too hard to understand, go watch the 91' finals series against LA. He literally does this exact sequence every 3 plays or so, and more often than not, it's the right decision. In fact, after watching the series again, it seems like he makes the wrong decision(ie passes out when he has an open look, or forces a shot when he doesn't) only 3 or 4 times, and I believe the commentators even say something about it. Far too often, I see players like Lebron and Kobe(to a much greater extent) force up an awkward shot over tough defense, or pass out to a shooter when they successfully created an open look for themselves, probably because they had already made their mind up on what was to be done. It's something that's not so easy to see, but it's definitely there if you're looking for it. All in all, I would still give Lebron the slight edge in passing ability, but it's a lot closer than apg would indicate. And just to clarify, this is really just 88-93 Jordan I'm talking about, 09 Lebron is clearly a better passer than rookie-88 Jordan where he had a purely score first Kobe like mentality, and clearly a better passer than second three peat Jordan where he deferred most of the passing duties to Pippen.

Defense
Like rebounding, I don't think there's much that needs to be said here. Jordan was a better on ball and help defender. Lebron is getting there, and is bigger and stronger than Jordan, but Jordan's defensive intensity was on another level.

Overall Impact
What does it all mean? What impact does this all have? Well, statistically they are very close, and I don't think pace would really change anything since it's so close. Jordan's stats would probably go up a little bit across the board if he had the ball in his hands as much as Lebron, but then again, that just wasn't his style of play. Regardless of the stats, these are two very different players, and there advantages/disadvantages for both. I think Lebron's style of play lends itself better to making a bad team good, while Jordan's style of play lends itself better to making a good team great(very similar to the way I view the Wilt/Russell debate). For instance, replacing Lebron with Jordan on the Cavs probably leads to less overall wins and maybe not even as much playoff success. On the other hand replacing Jordan with Lebron during the first three peat also leads to less wins and probably no three peat. As somewhat of an aside, I think if you were to replace current Lebron with a prime Jordan on the Heat and ran Wade at point, you'd be looking at the best record in the league, based solely on how much better Jordan's off the ball play meshes with Wade's ball dominant play.

To sum it up, it's very close but I'd have to go with Jordan because of his superior scoring,defense, and off the ball play. On the other hand, if I had a team of so-so players who I was looking to take to the playoffs with a ever so slight chance at a championship, I'd probably pick Lebron.

Well thought-out post. You've made some key points. I don't have much to contribute to this thread since it will be pretty much run over by the trolls and what not. However the fact that we're having this comparison shows how great of a player Lebron is. More often than not greatness gets taken for granted.

[GP_20]

First of all..He was one of the best guards of All-Time.I think u agree with me.He had almost no weakness for a point guard.However noone can consider him as the best many of those catagories.(Except defense)

Jordan had no weakness and he was almost best at many catagories. Payton has not weakness but he wasn't greatest of all time at scoring,assists,post offense,midrange game.

Not GOAT but one of the greatest guards ever.When he had Kemp Sonics was one of the best teams.He had such versality but not dominance in those skills.
I give you better example..Scottie Pippen.He had no weakness but he wasn't one of the greatest in every skill.(Except defense)

Jordan had versatility but also he was one of the greatest at those skills.Not just good or great.

Well definitely he is one of the greatest ever. Top 3 PG prime All-Time.

Payton though in 2000,

Best Defensive G
#2 in Rebounds for a Guard
#1 in assists in the league
#1 in 3 pointers made in the league
Best Post-Game for a Guard
#3 in Points for a Guard

Though there are no categories for it, but his ability to drive in and score was at the top, and had a good mid-range game.


As you can see, he was also the best or nearly the best in many areas in 2000 while having no weaknesses.



I mean compare him to Magic, it's clear Magic has more weaknesses than Payton (defense for one), and Magic was arguably the GOAT Passer and Payton arguably the GOAT defender for guards. Does that mean Payton is better than Magic? No.




Point is, having an arbitrary category such as "No Weaknesses" doesn't automatically make a player better than the other. Nonetheless, I will stay that is impressive, to basically have no holes in your game.

[az00m]

Another thing should be noted... Lebron can only play great with the ball. Jordan was great on and off the ball. A wise man once said


Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. He's the greatest point guard ever. He's the greatest shooting guard ever. He's the greatest small forward ever. He'd probably rank in the top five among power forwards and centers. I don't think Michael Jordan could guard Michael Jordan.

[miles berg]

I see that after all these years they still let a bunch of idiots on this forum. Kind of why I never post here anymore.

Michael Jordan, on his worst day in 1990, was still better than LeBron James.

[rodman91]

Well definitely he is one of the greatest ever. Top 3 PG prime All-Time.

Payton though in 2000,

Best Defensive PG
#2 in Rebounds for a Guard
#1 in assists in the league
#1 in 3 pointers made in the league
Best Post-Game for a Guard
#3 in Points for a Guard


As you can see, he was also the best or nearly the best in many areas in 2000 while having no weaknesses.



I mean compare him to Magic, it's clear Magic has more weaknesses than Payton (defense for one), and Magic was arguably the GOAT Passer and Payton arguably the GOAT defender for guards. Does that mean Payton is better than Magic? No.




Point is, having an arbitrary category such as "No Weaknesses" doesn't automatically make a player better than the other. Nonetheless, I will stay that is impressive, to basically have no holes in your game.


I definetely agree with all of you said above.And you said same things with me about Magic and him.

However Lebron doesn't have anything GOAT level.Also he doesn't have anything truely superior to Jordan at 1990.All the thing he does well, Jordan was as good as he is or much better.Even at 3 point shooting, let say jordan was average (actually that year he was really good at it) and Lebron is slightly better.

Just a year ago he got DPOY.Lebron was no where near being DPOY.In 2009 all he had was highlight blocks.When Jordan started to play as playmaker (like Lebron) he had 10 triple doubles in 11 games, including 7 straight before missing one against the Pistons where he had 40 points, 11 assists, and 7 rebounds. He would finish the season with 15 triple doubles, 3 shy of Magic Johnson

[rodman91]

People realize 1990's Jordan is prime Jordan?? Its not like he just came the league.We are talking about arguably GOAT player's best years.This guy won MVP,DYOP and had 32.5 ppg,8rpg,8apg,2.9 spg with 54 %FG a year ago. :lol If you consider Lebron 2009 was almost as good as Jordan's prime.That means you consider 25 years old Lebron was already better than Magic,Bird and many of other greatest players of all time.:rolleyes: so what is Lebron now at 27? G.O.A.T? :eek:

[magnax1]

I don't see how Jordan was a better passer. Better scorer and defender? Yeah.
Pretty much opinion, but Jordan was better at getting his team mates open looks then Lebron in every late 80s/early 90s I've watched of him. Jordan in the same position as Lebron basically averaged the same amount of assists in the 89 season. Jordan definitely made better use of the ball by getting it out of his hands quickly, and was also a smarter player within a system. Most everything I look for in a passer I'd give to Jordan, other then Lebron can throw passes at insane speeds, though that isn't useful all that often.

It's never pretty easy to get 39/8/8 in a playoff series on 49% shooting or 35/9/7 on 51% shooting for 3 playoff series.
I didn't say it was easy to get 40 ppg, I said the opposing team didn't make it to hard on him.

[OldSchoolBBall]

1990 Jordan. I don't think it's particulalry close, either. Jordan's insane defensive impact, far less ball dominant style, and all-around brilliance, clutchness, and intangibles put him over the top.

Dude averaged 37/8/7/53% FG (against two of the best defenders of the era in Robertson and Pressey) and 43/7/7/52% FG in the first two rounds of the playoffs, plus amazing defensive impact. Lebron can't see that. What numbers would that Jordan have put up playing the style of ball Lebron does? 40/8/9? 44/8/9? The mind boggles.

[Nevaeh]

What was 00 or 01 Payton's weakness? He could score 20+, Top 3 rebounder for a guard, led league in 3s, All-Defensive 1st, led league in assists, could drive, could post, had a strong mid-range game, ....No weaknesses? Best guard of All-Time?

You let the trolls tell it, anyone who faced Jordan in his prime was a nobody :rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Here's a post I made on another board in response to someone who asked me what sort of numbers Jordan would average playing the same ball dominant style that Lebron did from '06-'10:

I don't think it's scoring that would increase so much as assists, though perhaps scoring would be affected somewhat by increased fouls drawn during the time of possession (e.g., when teams are in the penalty). After all, scoring is ultimately only affected by the number of shots taken and one's efficiency.

Having the ball for 10-15+ seconds plays a large role in how many assist-generating scenarios you'll be involved in, however, simply by virtue of time of possession (i.e., if one player pounds the ball for 15 seconds, the team is likely to only get one good look every time down barring an offensive board, and that look will likely involve said player in a shooting or assisting capacity); all the more so if said player is running repeated pick and rolls or drive and kicks. As an example, imagine said player has the ball up high and executes a high pick & roll that ends up being defended well; the player then gets the ball back and drives and kicks to a shooter, who is contested so they swing it around the horn to a second spot-up shooter who is also defended well; said player then goes and gets the ball back again, executes another variation of one of these plays, and, given the shot clock situation and the realities of the team's (lack of) offensive ability, he will either end up having to take a shot himself or the player he passes to will have to shoot it - if it goes in, it's an assist. Multiply this exact scenario by 40x and you'll have the '06-'09 Cleveland "offense" in a nutshell.

In my opinion, Jordan in '88 with the ball in his hands as much as Lebron would have averaged 35/6/8 (instead of 35/6/6); I don't think his scoring decreases with the increased assists because, as my account above points out, the increased assists are directly ATTRIBUTABLE to his increased time of possesion - it's not that he (or Lebron) is foregoing shots in FAVOR OF assists necessarily, that's just the way it ends up. In 1989 and beyond (up until at least 1992, after which stamina would become an issue), MJ could have averaged 29-31 pts/8+ reb/9+ ast annually imo playing the style of ball Lebron plays. As I said earlier, we saw him average 30+/9+/11+ over the final 25 games of the season in 1989 and then 38/8+/9 over the first two playioff rounds when playing in a similar manner.

[Soundwave]

Jordan's competitive drive and superior basketball I.Q. wins out and those are two things I don't consider to be trivial details.

Both are spectacular athletes, it seems to be that even though LeBron would be rated as "stronger", Jordan was more apt to dunk on your 7 footer than LeBron is.

[jlauber]

Honestly I think this is a very good debate, more so than most people would like to admit. Overall I think I'd have to choose Jordan, but honestly (and I probably get negged for saying this),but 09-now Lebron is probably the best perimeter player I've seen since prime Jordan.

I'll break it down into categories and then state the positives/negatives(with respect to each other) that each brings to their respective teams.

Scoring
I feel that Lebron has a VERY slight edge in certain aspects of the scoring game, but overall most aspects of scoring are in favor of Jordan. For instance, I tend to think Lebron is slightly better at finishing once he's at the rim(Jordan was more creative, but Lebron is slightly more effective), however this is offset by the fact that Jordan was more effective at splitting the defense and actually getting to the rim(similar to Wade). Lebron is also a slightly better three point shooter, but that's about it. Where Jordan starts to pull ahead imo is where and how his scoring ability fits into an elite offense. Jordan was a MUCH better off the ball player/spot up shooter and it's really not even close. Realistically, 30 points from Jordan is better for a team than 30 points from Lebron (assuming equal efficiency) because Jordan's 30 comes more within he flow of the offense and involves the whole team to a greater degree. Even still, Jordan put up more ppg on better efficiency
34 ppg on 53%/38%/85% vs 30ppg on 50%/33%/77% so IMO Jordan gets the clear edge in scoring.

Rebounding
Lebron gets the clear nod here. He is a bigger stronger player which tends to lend itself well to rebounding. There's really not much of an argument to be made here.

Passing
While it may seem that the obvious and easy answer here is Lebron, I wouldn't be so quick to write Jordan off on this one. Lebron obviously averages more assists, but Lebron is also quite a bit more ball dominant than Jordan. Who's to say how many assists Jordan could have averaged had he held the ball in his hands as often as Lebron; if his 88-89 season is any indication, Jordan could have very well put up 8+ apg for a season. A better way to judge passing ability IMO is to actually watch the two play and see what each does better/worse. Both have great court vision, though I think Lebron's is slightly better, perhaps because he is taller. Lebron is also better at making flashy passes such as behind the back and no look passes that confuse the defense and lead to easy layups/dunks. I also think Lebron is a better transition/fast break passer. Where Jordan has him beat and makes up much of the lost ground is in fundamental passing and high IQ/last second passing. I think the it's pretty clear what I mean by fundamental passing, but let me explain the second one. While both players are great at driving in reading a double team and passing out, and Lebron does this more often, Jordan was smarter/more reactionary about it. It's almost as if Lebron gets it in his mind ahead of time what he wants to do and then acts accordingly regardless of how that action plays out, where as Jordan would do something, see that it's not working and changes the play mid stroke. Again, I'm not saying Lebron doesn't do this, just that Jordan was a little better at it. For example,
Lebron's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Jones" <----- does exactly that regardless of whether the double team actually comes.
Jordan's thought process
"I'm going to drive to the lane, elevate to fake the pull up jumper and draw the double team, then dump it out to Paxon" <---- double team doesn't come so he takes the wide open jumper instead
or
"I'm going to drive in, step back and take the jumper" <---- sees two hands in his face and dumps it off to Paxson/Grant

If that was a little too hard to understand, go watch the 91' finals series against LA. He literally does this exact sequence every 3 plays or so, and more often than not, it's the right decision. In fact, after watching the series again, it seems like he makes the wrong decision(ie passes out when he has an open look, or forces a shot when he doesn't) only 3 or 4 times, and I believe the commentators even say something about it. Far too often, I see players like Lebron and Kobe(to a much greater extent) force up an awkward shot over tough defense, or pass out to a shooter when they successfully created an open look for themselves, probably because they had already made their mind up on what was to be done. It's something that's not so easy to see, but it's definitely there if you're looking for it. All in all, I would still give Lebron the slight edge in passing ability, but it's a lot closer than apg would indicate. And just to clarify, this is really just 88-93 Jordan I'm talking about, 09 Lebron is clearly a better passer than rookie-88 Jordan where he had a purely score first Kobe like mentality, and clearly a better passer than second three peat Jordan where he deferred most of the passing duties to Pippen.

Defense
Like rebounding, I don't think there's much that needs to be said here. Jordan was a better on ball and help defender. Lebron is getting there, and is bigger and stronger than Jordan, but Jordan's defensive intensity was on another level.

Overall Impact
What does it all mean? What impact does this all have? Well, statistically they are very close, and I don't think pace would really change anything since it's so close. Jordan's stats would probably go up a little bit across the board if he had the ball in his hands as much as Lebron, but then again, that just wasn't his style of play. Regardless of the stats, these are two very different players, and there advantages/disadvantages for both. I think Lebron's style of play lends itself better to making a bad team good, while Jordan's style of play lends itself better to making a good team great(very similar to the way I view the Wilt/Russell debate). For instance, replacing Lebron with Jordan on the Cavs probably leads to less overall wins and maybe not even as much playoff success. On the other hand replacing Jordan with Lebron during the first three peat also leads to less wins and probably no three peat. As somewhat of an aside, I think if you were to replace current Lebron with a prime Jordan on the Heat and ran Wade at point, you'd be looking at the best record in the league, based solely on how much better Jordan's off the ball play meshes with Wade's ball dominant play.

To sum it up, it's very close but I'd have to go with Jordan because of his superior scoring,defense, and off the ball play. On the other hand, if I had a team of so-so players who I was looking to take to the playoffs with a ever so slight chance at a championship, I'd probably pick Lebron.

Excellent post. In any case, I think it would have been very close myself.

[Nash-tastic]

How do you see 2009 lebron better than than 89 jordan?

32.5/8/8/3 is closes too triple double average in 30 years
Magic Johnson
1981-1982 18.6 PPG 9.6 RPG 9.5 APG
1982-1983 16.8 PPG 8.6 RPG 10.5 APG


Jordan stans are some of the most insecure bunch ever met on internet...only some of the Kome crazies can rival these loons in delusion. Saying things like that Jordan was a "perfect" player (a term which doesn't even exist in real life) is about as retarded as you get. Funny how all those sexy stats of his couldn't bring His Airness over the hump untill Phil Jackson and Pip appeared and made his status "immortal". I'd say Jordan is easily the most mystified superstar of all time - but what can you expect from the generation of Space Jam tards really?:rolleyes:

And you aren't a LeBron stan?

[rodman91]

There might be a player who will better than Jordan at prime in future. But probably everybody will be so busy with expecting SG/SF flashy guy & with mad stats and that player will be underrated.Duncan arguably most successful player after jordan retired and while he was earning rings people was talking about Vince Carter,Iverson,Kobe,T-Mac type players..Thats a Jordan effect.Even shaq didn't get this much hype in early 00's because he was a Goliath.Big guys ruled in this decade but if you ask a typical NBA fan, he would say Kobe.

[Mr. Grieves]

1990 Jordan - Tough as nails.

2009 Lebron - Touch fouls and playoff quitting.

No contest.

[donald_trump]

[/b]
People still believe this shit? Not that I think 2009 Lebron is as good as 1990 Jordan but this is just flat out not true. He's been one of, if not the best clutch player in the league since 2008. And for clutch FT shooting (clutch defined as last 5 minutes of a game, score within 5 points):

2008: 71% season, 79% clutch
2009: 78% season, 85% clutch
2010: 77% season, 80% clutch
2011: 76% season, 89% clutch (according to Windhorst of ESPN), and if you make it the last minute instead of last 5, he's made 21 of 22 FTs. The only one he's missed in the last minute of a close game was the one against Boston.

dont bother posting rational information.

this is where the 'watch the games' excuses will pop up, when its clearly these posters that keep calling lebron unclutch that havent actually watched the games. :oldlol:

[kaiiu]

:facepalm this thread

[ShaqAttack3234]

1990 Jordan. I don't think it's particulalry close, either. Jordan's insane defensive impact, far less ball dominant style, and all-around brilliance, clutchness, and intangibles put him over the top.

Dude averaged 37/8/7/53% FG (against two of the best defenders of the era in Robertson and Pressey) and 43/7/7/52% FG in the first two rounds of the playoffs, plus amazing defensive impact. Lebron can't see that. What numbers would that Jordan have put up playing the style of ball Lebron does? 40/8/9? 44/8/9? The mind boggles.

I think 1990 Jordan is the clear winner as well, but because of Lebron's historic playoff performance, and his regular season where he led a cast that had no business being a contender to 66-16 wins(would've likely been 67-15 and a record-tying 40-1 at home had they not rested their best players on the last game). Even in the regular season it's kind of hard to see how that team was so dominant that Lebron was putting up 28/8/7 on great efficiency while sitting out a lot of 4th quarters.

From watching them play, Jordan was more impressive to me and probably better statistically, but because of what Lebron did with that cast, I wanted to see if someone had a different perspective and could make a good argument for Lebron being as good. And in general, how close most think it is.

Jordan being able to score more and do it more efficiently while playing off the ball more and holding the ball less as well as being the superior 1 on 1 defender and help/team defender who regularly used more energy at that end makes him a clear choice to me. The fact that he was a better shooter, already had a better post game(though he didn't use it nearly as much as he would later) help his case because the thing I think Lebron was/is better at(passing), he's not that much better at it.

There are many reasons why 1990 Jordan is so impressive to me is because he could beat you in so many ways. He was more of a jump shooter than Lebron by that point, but easily had the explosiveness and ball handling ability to attack the basket and either finish or get to the line all night if he chose to.

I don't see Jordan doing anything more with Lebron's cast in '09, but Jordan's versatility offensively and defensive impact made him an easier guy to build a championship team around, IMO and the guy I'd pick for most teams(though certain teams like the '09 Cavs may fit Lebron better).

But I'm sure you'd agree that the poster who said rookie MJ>Lebron is 100% wrong.

[kaiiu]

numbers dont show intangibles

[rodman91]

I think 1990 Jordan is the clear winner as well, but because of Lebron's historic playoff performance, and his regular season where he led a cast that had no business being a contender to 66-16 wins(would've likely been 67-15 and a record-tying 40-1 at home had they not rested their best players on the last game). Even in the regular season it's kind of hard to see how that team was so dominant that Lebron was putting up 28/8/7 on great efficiency while sitting out a lot of 4th quarters.

From watching them play, Jordan was more impressive to me and probably better statistically, but because of what Lebron did with that cast, I wanted to see if someone had a different perspective and could make a good argument for Lebron being as good. And in general, how close most think it is.

Jordan being able to score more and do it more efficiently while playing off the ball more and holding the ball less as well as being the superior 1 on 1 defender and help/team defender who regularly used more energy at that end makes him a clear choice to me. The fact that he was a better shooter, already had a better post game(though he didn't use it nearly as much as he would later) help his case because the thing I think Lebron was/is better at(passing), he's not that much better at it.

There are many reasons why 1990 Jordan is so impressive to me is because he could beat you in so many ways. He was more of a jump shooter than Lebron by that point, but easily had the explosiveness and ball handling ability to attack the basket and either finish or get to the line all night if he chose to.

I don't see Jordan doing anything more with Lebron's cast in '09, but Jordan's versatility offensively and defensive impact made him an easier guy to build a championship team around, IMO and the guy I'd pick for most teams(though certain teams like the '09 Cavs may fit Lebron better).

But I'm sure you'd agree that the poster who said rookie MJ>Lebron is 100% wrong.

You still didn't come up with facts about why Lebron > MJ in 85. Also thats just my opinion, and i find rookie jordan more comparable to Lebron because he had some gaps in his game like Lebron has. As you can see from the thread nobody really finds it comparable, says 1990 Jordan easily. Rookie term might sound disrespectful but we are talking about arguably best player ever in first year.1990 was already scored scored 37 ppg per game,won DPYO,won scoring titles many times and lead stealing many times.

Rookie Jordan wasn't in his prime.Whoever you compare with prime Jordan is not fair to other guy. (except a few players) So in his first year (second year he was injured.A year he lit up 63 points against legendary Celtics in playoffs) more fair for comparision.Also rookie Jordan wasn't like Kobe,T-mac.He came league much mature like Duncan.Both of them were great in their first year.They complete their games a few years later.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You still didn't come up with facts about why Lebron > MJ in 85. Also thats just my opinion, and i find rookie jordan more comparable to Lebron because he had some gaps in his game like Lebron has. As you can see from the thread nobody really finds it comparable, says 1990 Jordan easily. Rookie term might sound disrespectful but we are talking about arguably best player ever in first year.1990 was already scored scored 37 ppg per game,won DPYO,won scoring titles many times and lead stealing many times.

Rookie Jordan wasn't in his prime.Whoever you compare with prime Jordan is not fair to other guy. (except a few players) So in his first year (second year he was injured.A year he lit up 63 points against legendary Celtics in playoffs) more fair for comparision.Also rookie Jordan wasn't like Kobe,T-mac.He came league much mature like Duncan.Both of them were great in their first year.They complete their games a few years later.

2009 Lebron is much closer to 1990 Jordan than rookie Jordan is to 2009 Lebron.

I didn't even think I'd have to explain this, but what the hell.

What exactly did rookie Jordan do better than 2009 Lebron? I'd take 2009 Lebron as a scorer, passer and defender. He was better statistically, won 28 more games, made it to the conference finals.

Jordan had a very good rookie season, but his team won only 38 games, would 2009 Lebron only win 38 games on any team? After all, Lebron improved in 2009, but in 2008 his team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him. Add a better jump shot, improved free throw shooting and improved defense and you have 2009 Lebron.

Sorry, but there is no argument for rookie Jordan over Lebron, none.

[jlauber]

I think 1990 Jordan is the clear winner as well, but because of Lebron's historic playoff performance, and his regular season where he led a cast that had no business being a contender to 66-16 wins(would've likely been 67-15 and a record-tying 40-1 at home had they not rested their best players on the last game). Even in the regular season it's kind of hard to see how that team was so dominant that Lebron was putting up 28/8/7 on great efficiency while sitting out a lot of 4th quarters.



I won't get into a Lebron-MJ debate here.

But, looking at what Lebron did in his last two seasons in Cleveland,...and where the Cavs are now (I know...it is not just the loss of LBJ)...and I wonder how many other players could have taken a team further?

And I have read here many times how Lebron "quit" against Boston in the playoffs last season. First of all, he single-handedly carried them to a win in one of those games. But, I honestly think he looked at the vast differences in rosters and basically gave up. It was hopeless. He had to play a super-human game for the Cavs to even be in the game.

I think we will see a different Lebron this year..and maybe in for years to come, as well. MJ didn't get a ring until his seventh season, and Lebron is about the same age now, as MJ was then. He probably will never equal MJ's career, but if there is any player out there now, that can, IMHO, it would be LBJ.

[rodman91]

2009 Lebron is much closer to 1990 Jordan than rookie Jordan is to 2009 Lebron.

I didn't even think I'd have to explain this, but what the hell.

What exactly did rookie Jordan do better than 2009 Lebron? I'd take 2009 Lebron as a scorer, passer and defender. He was better statistically, won 28 more games, made it to the conference finals.

Jordan had a very good rookie season, but his team won only 38 games, would 2009 Lebron only win 38 games on any team? After all, Lebron improved in 2009, but in 2008 his team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him. Add a better jump shot, improved free throw shooting and improved defense and you have 2009 Lebron.

Sorry, but there is no argument for rookie Jordan over Lebron, none.

Rookie Jordan: 28.2ppg,6.5rpg,5.9apg 2.4spg and 51FG%..
2009 Lebron : 28.4 ppg,7.6rpg,7.2 apg,1.7spg 49FG%

Rookie Jordan was better defender than Lebron.Lebron's first step nowhere near jordan has, thats why he still struggle to man to man defense against guards and forwards who can drive in.Jordan was more agressive defender and better at ball pressure.Lets not forget Lebron plays point-forward so his assist numbers higher.(which is only 1.3 more than jordan) Jordan was arguably better slasher & leaper and more creative around rim even his rookie year.He had some post game.Lebron still doesn't have a post game.Jordan was bad at outside shooting in his rookie year.Lebron was much better outside shooter.However Jordan was much more agressive on offense.He was shooting only 0.6 3 points per game while Lebron shoots 4.7 attempts per game even his size was much bigger than rookie jordan. Stats are not everthing.But even their stats are more comperable in his rookie year.

Lets put Jordan 1990 stats over lebron 2009
Jordan 33.6 ppg,6.9rpg,6.3apg,2.8spg..52.6 FG% 37.6 3P%
Lebron 28.4 ppg,7.6rpg,7.2 apg,1.7spg 49FG% 34.4 3P%

Also lets not forget Jordan was already DPOY type of player in 1990.Even just defensive side of Jordan make this comparision dumb.

At least there are somethings you can compare with 2009 Lebron doing better than 1985 Jordan. 1990 Jordan was already GOAT level only his rings were missing.If 2009 Lebron is comparable with GOAT level jordan, then that means 2011 Lebron is at least same level with Jordan in prime. (Lebron is improved his one on one defense already to 2009)

:rolleyes:

[rodman91]

Whats the point of comparing them if 1990 Jordan doing almost everything better than 2009 Lebron? (except shooting range) :confusedshrug:

[az00m]

Magic Johnson
1981-1982 18.6 PPG 9.6 RPG 9.5 APG
1982-1983 16.8 PPG 8.6 RPG 10.5 APG




ok ok you got me. I should of said scoring 30+:hammerhead:

[madmax]

Whats the point of comparing them if 1990 Jordan doing almost everything better than 2009 Lebron? (except shooting range) :confusedshrug:

if you don't get why rookie Jordan can't be compared to 09 Lebron, there is no hope for you to even grasp why people are comparing 90's Jordan to him...numbers aren't everything dude - you have to take everything into account, like team record, overall impact, pace, intangibles and etc. Would you say that rookie Jordan had the same ore better impact on the game than 09 Lebron for example?

[BuGzBuNNy]

rodman91 you can't compare the stats of two players from different era's while completely ignoring their circumstances. Your completely ignoring the fact that the league averaged 10.8 more PPG in 1985 than 2009 and that the league average in FG% was .491 as compared to .459 in 2009. Teams also averaged 2.2 more RPG and 5.3 more APG..more blocks then and steals too. Common since should tell you that if Lebron played then that his stats would be even better.

[catch24]

rodman91 you can't compare the stats of two players from different era's while completely ignoring their circumstances. Your completely ignoring the fact that the league averaged 10.8 more PPG in 1985 than 2009 and that the league average in FG% was .491 as compared to .459 in 2009. Teams also averaged 2.2 more RPG and 5.3 more APG..more blocks then and steals too. Common since should tell you that if Lebron played then that his stats would be even better.

I don't agree with this. The stuff you say Rodman91 is ignoring are the same factors posters disregard all the time when comparing superstars like Kobe, Mcgrady, Iverson, and Pierce to Jordan. Most of the time MJ fans (and oldschool fans in general) pull out his stats and say he was far more this and that according to the numbers. I see this especially with the Kobe and Jordan comparisons...

[BuGzBuNNy]

I don't agree with this. The stuff you say Rodman91 is ignoring are the same factors posters disregard all the time when comparing superstars like Kobe, Mcgrady, Iverson, and Pierce to Jordan. Most of the time MJ fans (and oldschool fans in general) pull out his stats and say he was far more this and that according to the numbers. I see this especially with the Kobe and Jordan comparisons...
I agree with everything you said, but I don't understand what is it that you disagree with from my post.

[catch24]

I agree with everything you said, but I don't understand what is it that you disagree with from my post.

I disagree that you have to take into account stuff like pace, era played in (especially if we're only going back a decade or two), etc., because we don't do that for players like Kobe when he's compared to Jordan or Dwight, when he's compared to Shaq and Hakeem. IMO, they'd be the same players today as they were yesteryear and vice versa.

[gengiskhan]

rodman91 you can't compare the stats of two players from different era's while completely ignoring their circumstances. Your completely ignoring the fact that the league averaged 10.8 more PPG in 1985 than 2009 and that the league average in FG% was .491 as compared to .459 in 2009. Teams also averaged 2.2 more RPG and 5.3 more APG..more blocks then and steals too. Common since should tell you that if Lebron played then that his stats would be even better.

this is the single most stupidest argument by any NBA fan ever made.

Back than league ave 10.8 more points than today.

Have today's dumb stans ever figured out these facts.

Free throw shooting %age much better in 1985.

FG selection much better in 1985.

Much better fundamentals like picking up easy assist, or stl the ball breakaway lay up better in 1985.

Players were much more talented fundamentally in 1985 because of mandatory atleast 2 yrs of NCAA.

Extremely limited european or non-american talent cuz NBA was considered notch above cuz of its height & much more physicality.

& you still wanna harp on 10ppg more in 1985 & still fail to see how it came.:facepalm

[tpols]

I disagree that you have to take into account stuff like pace, era played in (especially if we're only going back a decade or two), etc., because we don't do that for players like Kobe when he's compared to Jordan or Dwight, when he's compared to Shaq and Hakeem. IMO, they'd be the same players today as they were yesteryear and vice versa.
I mean.. pace just puts the numbers into perspective. If teams now are scoring 10% less than they did in another time frame, then stats in that time frame will be over inflated by 10%.. You really cant compare numbers without comparing the context around them. It makes no sense.

[gengiskhan]

if you don't get why rookie Jordan can't be compared to 09 Lebron, there is no hope for you to even grasp why people are comparing 90's Jordan to him...numbers aren't everything dude - you have to take everything into account, like team record, overall impact, pace, intangibles and etc. Would you say that rookie Jordan had the same ore better impact on the game than 09 Lebron for example?

1990 MJ will always be a notch above Lebron at his best ever. If today's NBA fans ever seen what MJ was doing btw 1986-1990, Lebron would'nt even be mentioned in the same breath.

Its not just about MJ's ppg or apg or rpg or spg or DPOY or MVP. Its how he played the game. Its like a prototype 6'6" player created in the lab only to play b'ball. noting else.

MJ could pull up at will from any where within half court. He could pass at will. He could steal at will & he can block at will. score at will. & all this done at breathtaking liquidy speed. & after doing all this, he will never be tired. Its insane what MJ did btw 23-28 yrs of age. incredible

[BuGzBuNNy]

I disagree that you have to take into account stuff like pace, era played in (especially if we're only going back a decade or two), etc, because we don't do that for players like Kobe when he's compared to Jordan or Dwight, when he's compared to Shaq and Hakeem. IMO, they'd be the same players today as they were yesteryear and vice versa.
I agree if were just using the "eye test".. but if we are going to compare their stats at all I think you have to take into account league averages, pace and who they played against. I mean, if were not, then why isn't Wilt considered the undisputed GOAT?

[chazzy]

If two players use up similar amount of possessions, the pace isn't that relevant unless the overall defenses were lowered because of it. And that applies more for the early/mid 80s than 1990.

And gengiskhan, your post is more applicable towards the FG% disparity, not the pace.

[catch24]

I mean.. pace just puts the numbers into perspective. If teams now are scoring 10% less than they did in another time frame, then stats in that time frame will be over inflated by 10%.. You really cant compare numbers without comparing the context around them. It makes no sense.

Nah, I totally get that, you're right - some scoring does need to be put into context. But you can say the same for players like Jordan and Hakeem. If you were to dump them into today's game (where the Center position has gone on vacation, no more physical play, and players getting to the line far more, making it easier for perimeter players to score), they'd relish playing in this era. It goes both ways, imo.

[catch24]

I agree if were just using the "eye test".. but if we are going to compare their stats at all I think you have to take into account league averages, pace and who they played against. I mean, if were not, then why isn't Wilt considered the undisputed GOAT?

Well for starters, he wasn't the playoff performer Jordan was (who is probably the closest to being 'GOAT'), wasn't the all around player he was, and was most definitely not the leader and playmaker Jordan was.

If players have similar impact on the statistical end, then we gotta account other factors like accolades, honors and rings, etc.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Rookie Jordan: 28.2ppg,6.5rpg,5.9apg 2.4spg and 51FG%..
2009 Lebron : 28.4 ppg,7.6rpg,7.2 apg,1.7spg 49FG%

Rookie Jordan was better defender than Lebron.Lebron's first step nowhere near jordan has, thats why he still struggle to man to man defense against guards and forwards who can drive in.Jordan was more agressive defender and better at ball pressure.Lets not forget Lebron plays point-forward so his assist numbers higher.(which is only 1.3 more than jordan) Jordan was arguably better slasher & leaper and more creative around rim even his rookie year.He had some post game.Lebron still doesn't have a post game.Jordan was bad at outside shooting in his rookie year.Lebron was much better outside shooter.However Jordan was much more agressive on offense.He was shooting only 0.6 3 points per game while Lebron shoots 4.7 attempts per game even his size was much bigger than rookie jordan. Stats are not everthing.But even their stats are more comperable in his rookie year.

Lets put Jordan 1990 stats over lebron 2009
Jordan 33.6 ppg,6.9rpg,6.3apg,2.8spg..52.6 FG% 37.6 3P%
Lebron 28.4 ppg,7.6rpg,7.2 apg,1.7spg 49FG% 34.4 3P%

Also lets not forget Jordan was already DPOY type of player in 1990.Even just defensive side of Jordan make this comparision dumb.

At least there are somethings you can compare with 2009 Lebron doing better than 1985 Jordan. 1990 Jordan was already GOAT level only his rings were missing.If 2009 Lebron is comparable with GOAT level jordan, then that means 2011 Lebron is at least same level with Jordan in prime. (Lebron is improved his one on one defense already to 2009)

:rolleyes:

Rookie Jordan was not a better defender than 2009 Lebron. 1990 MJ was a better scorer and defender(though I still think Lebron was a better passer) and a better overall player than Lebron was or will be, IMO. But Jordan wasn't even close to the player he'd become in his rookie year, hell, 3rd year MJ who averaged 37 ppg wasn't the player '90-'93 Jordan was, and if you watch the games, this is obvious.

Saying rookie Jordan was better than Lebron is a perfect example of some fans picking Jordan no matter what. OldSchoolBBall is probably the biggest Jordan fan here and probably has the most knowledge of MJ's game and I doubt he'd pick rookie Jordan over 2009 Lebron.

But rookie Jordan? No, this is just obvious.

Jordan was already GOAT level in 1990, but how far has Lebron been from GOAT level since 2009? I can't name 10 players who have been better at their peak than Lebron was in 2009.

And I don't think Lebron is better than he was in 2009 right now either. Part of the difference in production is his role, but Lebron was more explosive in 2009 and he really hasn't improved his skills much since 2009. His mid-range shot may be a bit better, and I think he's having his best defensive season, while 2009 was his second best defensive season.

Pace does become a bit more of a factor when comparing Lebron's 2009 numbers to rookie Jordan because rookie Jordan played on a team that played at a faster pace than '90 MJ so the disparity is bigger, and we saw the numbers MJ put up in the '90 playoffs when the pace slowed down, so I don't think that's as much of an issue, but the bigger the disparity in pace, the more you have to at least take it into consideration when comparing numbers.

[Psileas]

Well for starters, he wasn't the playoff performer Jordan was (who is probably the closest to being 'GOAT'), wasn't the lall around player he was, and was most definitely leader and playmaker Jordan was.

If players have similar impact on the statistical end, then we gotta account other factors like accolades, honors and rings, etc.

For his position, Wilt was easily among the greatest all-around players ever. It's biased to judge some player as non-all around by using the stereotypical guard pattern. I can easily respond that similarly, Jordan was not the inside power and presence of Wilt and therefore wasn't as great (in the same way that Wilt isn't considered as great because of not providing what an elite guards brings to the table).

[catch24]

For his position, Wilt was easily among the greatest all-around players ever. It's biased to judge some player as non-all around by using the stereotypical guard pattern. I can easily respond that similarly, Jordan was not the inside power and presence of Wilt and therefore wasn't as great (in the same way that Wilt isn't considered as great because of not providing what an elite guards brings to the table).

I never said Wilt didn't have an all-around game. When comparing him to Jordan, it's obvious to anyone that he was was an inferior all-around basketball player. This isn't debatable. I was merely responding to BuGz's question - this wasn't a knock on Wilt, so don't take it personally. If you were going to use that example, I could respond to your response saying Wilt never had the midrange nor did he score or shoot the ball as frequently with pin-point accuracy the way MJ did during the postseason and Finals.

[catch24]

Back than league ave 10.8 more points than today.
.

Free throw shooting %age much better in 1985.

FG selection much better in 1985.

Much better fundamentals like picking up easy assist, or stl the ball breakaway lay up better in 1985.

Players were much more talented fundamentally in 1985 because of mandatory atleast 2 yrs of NCAA.

Extremely limited european or non-american talent cuz NBA was considered notch above cuz of its height & much more physicality.

& you still wanna harp on 10ppg more in 1985 & still fail to see how it came.:facepalm

This also has to be considered. Good post.

[Harison]

Rookie Jordan was not a better defender than 2009 Lebron. 1990 MJ was a better scorer and defender(though I still think Lebron was a better passer) and a better overall player than Lebron was or will be, IMO. But Jordan wasn't even close to the player he'd become in his rookie year, hell, 3rd year MJ who averaged 37 ppg wasn't the player '90-'93 Jordan was, and if you watch the games, this is obvious.
I agree '09 Lebron was slightly better defender than rookie Jordan, but I also agree with rodman that rookie Jordan is closer to '09 Lebron than '90 MJ. In his prime MJ was MUCH better defender than Lebron ever was, he was on Scotie level and among the best perimeter defenders All-time, Lebron? Not so much.

Btw about passing, watch how much better Jordan's court vision and BBIQ, he could set up his teammates and get them going from early on, while making instant decisions, thats good offense/passing. Lebron dribbles for almost all possesion and either makes something himself, or pass for bail out shot to his teammate, thats bad offense. One needs fraction of possession, another almost full possesion, yet their numbers were close. Hell, when Jordan played point like Lebron does, he averaged tripple-double for moths.

[Psileas]

I never said Wilt didn't have an all-around game. When comparing him to Jordan, it's obvious to anyone that he was was an inferior all-around basketball player. This isn't debatable. I was merely responding to BuGz's question - this wasn't a knock on Wilt, so don't take it personally. If you were going to use that example, I could respond to your response saying Wilt never had the midrange nor did he score or shoot the ball as frequently with pin-point accuracy the way MJ did during the postseason and Finals.

I'm not insulted, but, see, I disagree that Wilt was inarguably an inferior all-around basketball player. I don't need to point out the categories where he dominated and I don't need to point out that, him being an elite center, means that he could dominate a game in ways Jordan couldn't. He couldn't shoot nearly as well from the FT line or from long range nor was he as quick and agile. But he was much stronger, he was a vastly better shot-blocker and rebounder and, just for good measurement, he has 78 point/rebound/assist triple doubles to boot - and 10 more in the postseason. I just refuse that an elite/all-time great all-around player has to be a guy around 6'7 who has no glaring weaknesses (and Jordan wasn't the only player without glaring weaknesses-other elite guards/SF's like Kobe, Oscar, West, LeBron, Havlicek, didn't have, either) and who can shoot at any time. For me, a complete center like Wilt, Kareem or Hakeem can be every bit as great as an all-around player.

[catch24]

I'm not insulted, but, see, I disagree that Wilt was inarguably an inferior all-around basketball player. I don't need to point out the categories where he dominated and I don't need to point out that, him being an elite center, means that he could dominate a game in ways Jordan couldn't. He couldn't shoot nearly as well from the FT line or from long range nor was he as quick and agile. But he was much stronger, he was a vastly better shot-blocker and rebounder and, just for good measurement, he has 78 point/rebound/assist triple doubles to boot - and 10 more in the postseason. I just refuse that an elite/all-time great all-around player has to be a guy around 6'7 who has no glaring weaknesses (and Jordan wasn't the only player without glaring weaknesses-other elite guards/SF's like Kobe, Oscar, West, LeBron, Havlicek, didn't have, either) and who can shoot at any time. For me, a complete center like Wilt, Kareem or Hakeem can be every bit as great as an all-around player.

Nice post. We can agree to disagree. We just don't view the term 'all around' the same. It's cool. I definitely respect your knowledge and insight, though.

[Gifted Mind]

An interesting and close comparison...

[jlauber]

I never said Wilt didn't have an all-around game. When comparing him to Jordan, it's obvious to anyone that he was was an inferior all-around basketball player. This isn't debatable. I was merely responding to BuGz's question - this wasn't a knock on Wilt, so don't take it personally. If you were going to use that example, I could respond to your response saying Wilt never had the midrange nor did he score or shoot the ball as frequently with pin-point accuracy the way MJ did during the postseason and Finals.


Wilt didn't have the all-around game that MJ had? True, MJ had a SLIGHTLY higher career scoring average, but let's take a closer look shall we. In his first seven years, Wilt averaged 40 ppg, on about 51% shooting, which blows away MJ's best scoring season, and that FG% is better than MJ's career FG%. Not only that, but did MJ ever win a scoring title by over 10 ppg? Chamberlain won TWO of them by margins of 10.8 and a staggering 18.8 ppg.

AND, in Wilt's first ten seasons he averaged over 34 ppg, which blows away MJ's average in his ten scoring titles. And before you go into PACE, how about this quote?


I disagree that you have to take into account stuff like pace, era played in (especially if we're only going back a decade or two), etc., because we don't do that for players like Kobe when he's compared to Jordan or Dwight, when he's compared to Shaq and Hakeem. IMO, they'd be the same players today as they were yesteryear and vice versa.

Yes, we will use it against Wilt, but not against MJ, right? Furthermore, in MJ's best scoring season, he took a larger percentage of his team's shots, per minute played, than Wilt did in his monumental '62 season. BUT, that's not all. MJ best scoring seasons came in league's that shot over .480. Wilt's best scoring season came in a league that .426. Put Chamberlain in '87, and yes, his shots would drop SLIGHTLY, but his FG% would go up...considerably. I have said it before, but if you put Wilt's '62 season into '87, and he probably averages about 42 ppg on somewhere around .570 shooting.

MJ did have a solid edge in FT shooting. However, in terms of career FTs MADE, his margin is not nearly as dramatic. MJ made 7327 FTs in his 15 year career, or 488 a season. Wilt made 6057 in his 14 year career, or 432 per season.

Now, you mention that MJ had a better long range game. Maybe compared to Chamberlain, but certainly not compared to his peers. In fact, if you remove the three years that the NBA moved the line in, and MJ's career 3pt% drops from .327 to .288. I would argue that MJ HURT his team with his 3pt shooting.

MJ also had a higher apg average than Wilt, although, it is almost an embarrassment that it is as close it is. 5.3 apg to 4.4 apg. Furthermore, did MJ ever win an assist title? Did he ever even come in third in assists? Wilt did BOTH.

MJ was first-team all-defense ten times in his 15 years. Unfortunately for Wilt, that award did not exist until his last four seasons, and he was first team all-defense in his LAST TWO. In fact, I am convinced that Wilt would have won the DPOY in '72 had the award existed. And he probably would have won it in '67 and '68, as well. And, if you use DWS's as a gauge, Wilt was well ahead of MJ, with a 93.9 mark in his 14 seasons, compared to MJ's 64.1. BTW, Wilt even edges MJ in career OWS, as well, despite cutting his shooting back dramatically in his last seven seasons. Also, MJ was a guard, which had TWO selected to all-defensive teams, while Wilt, being a center, only had one.

Continuing on defense...Jordan averaged 2.3 spg in his career. We don't know what Wilt averaged, but as athletically gifted as he was, I am sure he was among the best at the center position. HOWEVER, how about Blocked Shots? Here again, we don't know the ACTUAL number that Wilt had, while we know that MJ averaged less ONE per game...at 0.8. MJ had 893 career blocked shots. Since Harvey Pollack had educated guessimates of Wilt blocking 10+ bpg in his best seasons, it is possible that Chamberlain had more blocks in his SINGLE best season, than Jordan had his entire CAREER. Pollack alos had Wilt with 25 blocks in one game, and in a game on Christmas Day in 1968, Chamberlain blocked a RECORDED 23 shots. In any case, Wilt's defensive impact, with his blocked shots and intimidation, was far more than MJ's perimeter defensive impact.

How about FG%? Wilt shot a career .540 to MJ's .497, but here again, Wilt shot his FG% in leagues that shot from a low of .410 to a high of .456. MJ shot his FG% in leagues as high as .491, and probably around 48% for his career. Not only that, but Wilt won NINE FG% titles. How many did MJ win? And, Wilt has the TWO highest seasons in NBA HISTORY, and three of the top-5.

How about rebounding? This is interesting. Even those that argue that MJ was a better passer (and I am not one of them)...he was a guard, and he BARELY had a higher average. BUT, in rebounding, Chamberlain not only buried MJ, he was the greatest ever...and by a mile. ELEVEN rebounding titles...to MJ's...ZERO.

How about the post-season? True, MJ was the game's greatest post-season scorer, but in Wilt's defense, Chamberlain cut back his shooting in the second HALF of his career. In his first six post-seasons, he averaged 33 ppg on about 49% shooting. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, his team was so bad in '63, that he missed the post-season. So what, you ask? Wilt averaged 45 ppg that year.

And Jordan's scoring dropped against the Pistons in the late 80's. Why is that significant? Because Wilt faced the vaunted Celtic Dynasty in eight playoff series. And he faced Russell, the game's greatest defensive player, in those eight series. In fact, Wilt faced a HOF center in about 2/3rds of his post-season career. And while MJ holds the Finals scoring record of 42 ppg, I have often wondered what Wilt would have done in the '62 Finals, had his team been able to score three more points against Boston in game seven that year in the ECF's. Why? Because Wilt averaged 51.5 ppg against LA in his eight regular season meetings, including THREE games of 60+, and a high game of 78 (with 43 rebounds BTW.)


I could respond to your response saying Wilt never had the midrange nor did he score or shoot the ball as frequently with pin-point accuracy the way MJ did during the postseason and Finals

Wilt may not have scored as much as MJ in the post-season, but he certainly SHOT better. Wilt shot .522 to MJ's .487...and once again, MJ's shooting occurred in MUCH higher FG% leagues. Furthermore, how did MJ do in his last three Finals? .456, .427, and .415. We don't have Wilt's FG% in all of his Finals, but in the four that we do have, he shot .524, .560., .600, and .625.

As far as passing goes in the post-season, once again, Jordan has a slight edge. BUT, Wilt had a higher apg average in his best season compared to MJ's best post-season.

Then, we get to rebounding. Wilt ELEVATED his already staggering rpg numbers in his post-seasons. He averaged 24.5 rpg and had post-seasons of 26.6, 27.2, 29.1, and 30.2. He never averaged less than 20.2 rpg in his 13 post-seasons, and in his LAST post-season, and covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg. So, for those that MIGHT argue that Rodman was a better rebounder, they had better acknowledge that he dropped dramatically in his playoff career, while Chamberlain elevated his already astonishing rebounding numbers in the playoffs.

So, was MJ REALLY a better ALL-AROUND player than Chamberlain?

[rodman91]

When i say comparing first year of jordan i didnt say he is better as stat wise.However poster sound like he had superior stats over rookie jordan. (which is not) You can check my earlier posts, my comparision is not statswise. (not players,not teams,not league stats because era was different,opponents were different,teammates were different,rules were different)

Again, jordan is arguably GOAT player, right? 1990 was one of his prime years.He was at his best during 87-93.So if you are considering Lebron was GOAT level in 2 years ago, it makes him arguably goat now.Forget all team success,rings,stats.Its simple logic.If you think its fair comparision that 2009 Lebron was Jordan's prime level, okay,you can dream on.

But almost nobody said here 2009 Lebron is better or almost same level with 1990 Jordan,right? So from 85 to 90.. 88-89 wasn't so different from 90.He was already one of best offensive and defense player in history at those years.1987? we all know what he did that year :lol oh,86, he broke his leg and didnt play.. so there 1985 left..his Rookie year.


Lets forget all stats,team success,rules..(they played with different teammates against different opponents in different era) Just eye test..Can you say 2009 was better offensive player than 87-93 years? or can you say better defensive player than 87-93 years? if you can't say,and if still want to compare, it means you can compare him with only his rookie year.Some players came more mature than others.Some develops later.Don't forget Jordan came league from North Carolina.(winning shot!)He had olympic medal already.He wasn't like the guys comes from highschool.Tim Duncan in 1998 was already great player.(Next year he was final's MVP :lol )

[dee-rose]

Ehh, all the older posters will do whatever it takes to boost up the old stars compared to the players now. For those saying Any Jordan > Any LeBron, they just sound dumb, and no reason to argue with them because you won't change their minds.

Yes, they put up nearly identical numbers, nearly identical team success, near identical defensive players, yet its not even close, :rolleyes:
Of course they do, 2009 Lebron is comparable to Wizards MJ.:lol

[jlauber]

When i say comparing first year of jordan i didnt say he is better as stat wise.However poster sound like he had superior stats over rookie jordan. (which is not) You can check my earlier posts, my comparision is not statswise. (not players,not teams,not league stats because era was different,opponents were different,teammates were different,rules were different)

Again, jordan is arguably GOAT player, right? 1990 was one of his prime years.He was at his best during 87-93.So if you are considering Lebron was GOAT level in 2 years ago, it makes him arguably goat now.Forget all team success,rings,stats.Its simple logic.If you think its fair comparision that 2009 Lebron was Jordan's prime level, okay,you can dream on.

But almost nobody said here 2009 Lebron is better or almost same level with 1990 Jordan,right? So from 85 to 90.. 88-89 wasn't so different from 90.He was already one of best offensive and defense player in history at those years.1987? we all know what he did that year :lol oh,86, he broke his leg and didnt play.. so there 1985 left..his Rookie year.


Lets forget all stats,team success,rules..(they played with different teammates against different opponents in different era) Just eye test..Can you say 2009 was better offensive player than 87-93 years? or can you say better defensive player than 87-93 years? if you can't say,and if still want to compare, it means you can compare him with only his rookie year.Some players came more mature than others.Some develops later.Don't forget Jordan came league from North Carolina.(winning shot!)He had olympic medal already.He wasn't like the guys comes from highschool.Tim Duncan in 1998 was already great player.(Next year he was final's MVP :lol )

Jordan pre-1991 was ringless, and in 1990, he was 26 years old. Lebron is currently ringless, and is currently 26 years old.

Jordan didn't win any titles until he had players like Pippen, Grant, and Rodman, and pretty much in their primes. Name ONE player that Lebron has played alongside that can compare (before this year.) And no, Shaq in 2010 was not on the level that those players that MJ had were. Furthermore the OP was about Lebron in 2009, and when he was 24 years old.

If Lebron goes ringless with Wade and Bosh, he will probably be regarded as a HUGE failure. I don't forsee that happening, though. IMHO, and if they stay healthy, that Lebron will win at least a couple of rings, and who knows, he might challenge MJ's six. My god, if Lebron can avoid major injuries, he probably has at least 10 good seasons left.

[magnax1]

Jordan pre-1991 was ringless, and in 1990, he was 26 years old. Lebron is currently ringless, and is currently 26 years old.

Jordan didn't win any titles until he had players like Pippen, Grant, and Rodman, and pretty much in their primes. Name ONE player that Lebron has played alongside that can compare (before this year.) And no, Shaq in 2010 was not on the level that those players that MJ had were. Furthermore the OP was about Lebron in 2009, and when he was 24 years old.

If Lebron goes ringless with Wade and Bosh, he will probably be regarded as a HUGE failure. I don't forsee that happening, though. IMHO, and if they stay healthy, that Lebron will win at least a couple of rings, and who knows, he might challenge MJ's six. My god, if Lebron can avoid major injuries, he probably has at least 10 good seasons left.
I highly doubt Lebron has 10 good seasons left. Depends on your definition of good I guess, but he's already declined athletically quite a bit. And although Lebron didn't have as good of teams, it's not really like Jordan's early 90's teams were very talented.

[jlauber]

I highly doubt Lebron has 10 good seasons left. Depends on your definition of good I guess, but he's already declined athletically quite a bit. And although Lebron didn't have as good of teams, it's not really like Jordan's early 90's teams were very talented.

I haven't noticed any physical decline in Lebron. But, you are right, 36 may be a stretch. Most players really hit the wall around 34-35. As for MJ's early 90's teams, no they were not as talented as his second three-peat teams, but I don't think there was as much competition, either. MJ with Pippen were already two of the top-10 players (probably top-5) in the league.

[catch24]

Wilt didn't have the all-around game that MJ had? True, MJ had a SLIGHTLY higher career scoring average, but let's take a closer look shall we. In his first seven years, Wilt averaged 40 ppg, on about 51% shooting, which blows away MJ's best scoring season...

A slightly better regular season average and a far superior PPG average during the postseason. I digress (as you did with most of your posts here); we were talking about an "all-around game", not who scored the ball better. You're referencing scoring titles - you do realize Jordan is the all-time leader in scoring titles, having three more (10 to 7) than Wilt, right? Anyway, I'll finish off by saying, MJ did his damage much more fluently, consistently, and his points had more impact, translating into more postseason wins. Jordan was the better individual scorer. Again, that's just my opinion.


AND, in Wilt's first ten seasons he averaged over 34 ppg, which blows away MJ's average in his ten scoring titles. And before you go into PACE, how about this quote?

I wasn't going to discredit his PPG because of pace (considering that would be hypocritical to my post you quoted). Again, you keep referencing what Wilt did his first ten seasons; what about his entire career? We all know Jordan has the highest career scoring average - 30.12ppg.


Furthermore, in MJ's best scoring season, he took a larger percentage of his team's shots, per minute played, than Wilt did in his monumental '62 season. BUT, that's not all. MJ best scoring seasons came in league's that shot over .480.

And? You don't want me to discredit Wilt's PPG yet you cite the leagues FG% as if it should take away from Jordan's great scoring seasons? Let's be fair, JL.


Wilt's best scoring season came in a league that .426.

Irrelevant. He was 7'0. A guy with Wilt's length and athleticism should be shooting over the league average (and before you answer your Bat, or should I say Wilt signal, recognize that I am not taking anything away from him because of his height. I'm just using a little perspective). The fact a freaking guard averaged 30+ on over 53% shooting in a season is far more impressive to me than a guy who relatively scores most of his points under the basket. We can argue this till the cows come home, but hey, that's just my opinion.


Put Chamberlain in '87, and yes, his shots would drop SLIGHTLY, but his FG% would go up...I have said it before, but if you put Wilt's '62 season into '87, and he probably..

Wrong, we don't go by "what ifs". We don't know WHAT he would do. I could say Jordan would shoot 60% during the 60's playing against their 'amazing swingmen' and perimeter players. You and I both know that isn't fair or logical, because in reality, we simply don't know what would happen. I don't do fantasy, sorry JL.


MJ did have a solid edge in FT shooting. However, in terms of career FTs MADE, his margin is not nearly as dramatic. MJ made 7327 FTs in his 15 year career, or 488 a season. Wilt made 6057 in his 14 year career, or 432 per season. Now, you mention that MJ had a better long range game. Maybe compared to Chamberlain, but certainly not compared to his peers. In fact, if you remove the three years that the NBA moved the line in, and MJ's career 3pt% drops from .327 to .288. I would argue that MJ HURT his team with his 3pt shooting. MJ also had a higher apg average than Wilt, although, it is almost an embarrassment....

Jordan was a career 83% FT shooter. Wilt shot 51%. The difference was huge, actually. 50 more FT's made per year is pretty significant if you ask me. We aren't arguing what he did in comparison to his peers; we are talking about Wilt and Jordan here, remember? Please stay focused on the topic. Either way, MJ was a far better 3PT and midrange shooter than Wilt. And no, it's far from embarrassing that Wilt had close to the amount of assists Jordan had. It's been well documented he padded his stats and wanted to win "assist titles". The fact is MJ is #80 all-time in assists per game and #35 in total all-time assists, while Wilt is #123 all-time in assists per game, and #59 total in all-time assists.


MJ was first-team all-defense ten times in his 15 years. Unfortunately for Wilt, that award did not exist until his last four seasons, and he was first team all-defense in his LAST TWO. In fact, I am convinced that Wilt would have won the DPOY in '72 had the award existed. And he probably would have won it in '67 and '68, as well. And, if you use DWS's as a gauge...

No one cares if you're convinced, JL. That didn't happen so it's irrelevant. We're going by what actually went down. The DPOY award wasn't created until the 1982-83 season. Who the better defender is up for debate. The league also didn't record blocks & steals during Wilt's career - I get that. We can call the defense at their positions a draw. MJ averaged 35ppg when he won DPOY. The next closest scorer to win it avg'd 27ppg. Guards, hell perimeter players in general, rarely win the award. Cogitate the level of energy it takes to lead the league in scoring while being the games best defender. If you did want to use "Win Shares", Jordan has Wilt beat in total playoff Win Shares by a comfortable margin. But no, I don't use that dumb stat to determine a players worth on both offense and defense. There are far more inconsistencies with that stat than "PER", and "Per36" combined.



Continuing on defense........

I'll go back to my previous post - The league also didn't record blocks and steals during Wilt's career. MJ was the first player in league history to accumulate 200 steals and 100 blocks in a single season. He did it in back-to-back seasons, making him the ONLY PLAYER to achieve it consecutive (and multiple) times. MJ was also the first player in league history to lead the league in both scoring and steals. He achieved this feat three times (the only other player to do this was Iverson). As well, Jordan is #3 all-time in steals per game and is #2 all-time in total steals; Wilt's steals were not recorded. Mike is #1 all time in blocks by a guard; Wilt's blocks were not recorded. Again, we can call the defense at their respective positions a tie.


How about FG%? Wilt shot a career .540 to MJ's .497, but here again, Wilt shot his FG% in leagues that shot from a low of .410 to a high of .456. MJ shot his FG% in leagues as high as .491, and probably around 48% for his career...

What about it? I've already addressed this. Comparing FG% between a BIG who took a lot of shots, and a SG who took just as many is silly, but for arguments sake, lets point out the fact Wilt shot 54% for his career while Jordan shot 49.7% and 51% when he was playing in Chicago.

Lets take a look at their drop offs in scoring (as well as FG%) from the regular season to the postseason.
Wilt in the regular season: 30.7ppg on 54% shooting
In the playoffs : 22.5ppg on 46.5% shooting

MJ in the regular season: 30.12ppg on 49.7% shooting
In the playoffs: 33.45ppg on 48.7% shooting

As you can see, MJ raised his level of play in the postseason while Wilt's play dropped significantly.


How about rebounding?

Wilt beats Jordan in rebounding. End of story.


How about the post-season? True, MJ was the game's greatest post-season scorer, but in Wilt's defense, Chamberlain cut back...

It doesn't matter if he "cut back". Jordan rarely if ever "cut back" in the post season - he scored more. MJ was winning scoring titles while simultaneously leading his teams to championships. Yeah, that's how good he was.


And Jordan's scoring dropped against the Pistons in the late 80's. Why is that significant? Because Wilt faced the vaunted Celtic Dynasty...

Great point; however, Wilt STILL still played for ELITE teams. He's not excused from losing, just like Jordan isn't during the 80's. After the Bulls won in '91 they never looked back. Can you say the same for the Sixers and Wilt? You act like he isn't accountable for his teams shortcomings. Come back to reality, JL. Stop making excuses for the guy. He doesn't need you to defend his legacy.


I I have often wondered what Wilt would have done in the '62 Finals, had his team been able to score three more points against Boston in game seven that year in the ECF's. Why? Because Wilt averaged...

You can wonder all you want, in fact, that's all you can do. It never happened, and once again, I'm not interested in your fantasy BS. We are debating facts, not "what ifs" and "what could have happened".



Wilt may not have scored as much as MJ in the post-season, but he certainly SHOT better. Wilt shot .522 to MJ's .487...and once again, MJ's shooting occurred in MUCH higher FG% leagues. Wilt had a higher apg average in his best season compared to MJ's best post-season.

Once again, it doesn't matter if the leagues Jordan played in "shot the ball better". Going by your logic, I can say the 80s and mid-to-late 90s were far superior in basic ball movement, overall team offense and defense (going by pace of course). I go by what happened, and what went down. Remember that.

It doesn't matter if Wilt had one season where he averaged more APG. Jordan averaged more assists per game more seasons and was far more consistent in that regard. I've already given you their career totals and averages in assists. As I said, this isn't debatable.


Then, we get to rebounding.

I'll reiterate - Wilt was clearly better at rebounding the basketball


MJ REALLY a better ALL-AROUND player than Chamberlain?

Yes, he really was.

Anyways, I'm done here. Wilt fans, we can agree to disagree. EDIT - Apologies on Wilt's FG% during the playoffs. He actually shot 52% (54% during the regular season)

[che guevara]

I highly doubt Lebron has 10 good seasons left. Depends on your definition of good I guess, but he's already declined athletically quite a bit. And although Lebron didn't have as good of teams, it's not really like Jordan's early 90's teams were very talented.
Maybe not STACKED with talent, but they were phenomenal teams. Great defense, great coaching, great system (triangle offense) that fit their players very well. And they did have a lot of talent too, Horace Grant was probably better than anybody Lebron played with in Cleveland, let alone Pippen. We saw how much all of these things mattered when Jordan left in '94, they still managed 55 wins and got to the 2nd round.

[magnax1]

I haven't noticed any physical decline in Lebron. But, you are right, 36 may be a stretch. Most players really hit the wall around 34-35. As for MJ's early 90's teams, no they were not as talented as his second three-peat teams, but I don't think there was as much competition, either. MJ with Pippen were already two of the top-10 players (probably top-5) in the league.
AS for Lebron, watch this and I'm sure you'll see the decline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9TAoPPgKQ
He's definitely lost some speed and maneuverability
And I think the 93 Suns were more talented, though probably not quite as cohesive as the Jazz in the late 90's. And probably just plain better then the 96 Sonics.

Maybe not STACKED with talent, but they were phenomenal teams. Great defense, great coaching, great system (triangle offense) that fit their players very well. And they did have a lot of talent too, Horace Grant was probably better than anybody Lebron played with in Cleveland, let alone Pippen. We saw how much all of these things mattered when Jordan left in '94, they still managed 55 wins and got to the 2nd round
Grant was good, but nothing special really, and they didn't have much depth. Really that team was 80% Jordan and Pippen. Good defense and Pippen was good enough to get them 55 wins, but that's not really that great considering they won 67 in 92, and had won 3 in a row which no one had done in forever.
Cavs were the opposite. The team was all depth, nobody spectacular, but about 5 average or above average guys.

[M.V.P]

An interesting and close comparison...
Any opinions bro? Would be interested to hear what you have to say on this topic.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How did this turn into a Wilt thread? :facepalm


And before you go into PACE, how about this quote

Uh, there's a big difference between the pace Jordan's Bulls played at and Wilt's teams.

According to basketball-reference, Wilt's '62 Warriors had a pace factor of 129.7, the fastest pace in the league. In Jordan's two highest scoring seasons('87 and '88), his teams had pace factors of 95.8 and 95.5, respectively, which was the slowest pace in the league each season.

We're talking about a difference of roughly 34 possessions per game between their teams.

Pace factor= A team's number of possessions per 48 minutes

By the way, Jordan played 40 mpg in 1987 and 40.4 mpg in 1988, while Wilt played 48.5 mpg in 1962. And to put into perspective the difference in minutes that star players were playing, Jordan's 40.4 mpg led the league in '88 and he also led the league in total minutes in both seasons.

As a result, Wilt got 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA to work with. In '87, Jordan got 27.8 FGA and 11.9 FTA and in '88, 24.4 FGA and 10.5 FTA.

These factors made an enormous difference and make it impossible to compare their scoring average.


So, was MJ REALLY a better ALL-AROUND player than Chamberlain?

I don't know why you rank guys above Wilt(both Russell and Jordan) and then argue for Wilt in arguments vs both players.

[jlauber]

Lets take a look at their drop offs in scoring (as well as FG%) from the regular season to the postseason.
Wilt in the regular season: 30.7ppg on 54% shooting
In the playoffs : 22.5ppg on 46.5% shooting
MJ in the regular season: 30.12ppg on 49.7% shooting
In the playoffs: 33.45ppg on 48.7% shooting



Chamberlain shot .522 in the post-season. He also did not have the luxury of being in a league where 30-52 teams could make the playoffs, as MJ did. I still say that had Wilt's '63 team been in the post-season, that Wilt would have upped his post-season career scoring considerably, even with that putrid roster.


Overall, though, you argued your points well. We can agree to disagree.

[jlauber]

How did this turn into a Wilt thread? :facepalm



Uh, there's a big difference between the pace Jordan's Bulls played at and Wilt's teams.

According to basketball-reference, Wilt's '62 Warriors had a pace factor of 129.7, the fastest pace in the league. In Jordan's two highest scoring seasons('87 and '88), his teams had pace factors of 95.8 and 95.5, respectively, which was the slowest pace in the league each season.

We're talking about a difference of roughly 34 possessions per game between their teams.

Pace factor= A team's number of possessions per 48 minutes

By the way, Jordan played 40 mpg in 1987 and 40.4 mpg in 1988, while Wilt played 48.5 mpg in 1962. And to put into perspective the difference in minutes that star players were playing, Jordan's 40.4 mpg led the league in '88 and he also led the league in total minutes in both seasons.

As a result, Wilt got 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA to work with. In '87, Jordan got 27.8 FGA and 11.9 FTA and in '88, 24.4 FGA and 10.5 FTA.

These factors made an enormous difference and make it impossible to compare their scoring average.



I don't know why you rank guys above Wilt(both Russell and Jordan) and then argue for Wilt in arguments vs both players.

One, I didn't bring Wilt into this discussion. Two, in Wilt's 62 season the NBA scoring average was 119 ppg, and in '87 in was 110 ppg. Let's give Wilt credit for raising his team's scoring above the league average, and MJ for lowering his team below the league average. And MJ's high season in MPG was 40.4. Wilt, in his LAST season, and age 36, played 43 mpg. Here again, we can't discredit Chamberlain for being the ONLY player to average over 47 mpg and he did it FOUR times, and then 46+ mpg another THREE. Clearly, even in leagues when players averaged more mpg, he still led the league NINE years. And once again, if you argue PACE, then LEAGUE AVERAGE FG% has to come into play, as well. Take Wilt's .506 in '62 (or his .528 in '63 when he averaged 45 ppg), and it jumps to nearly .570 in '87.

[ShaqAttack3234]

One, I didn't bring Wilt into this discussion. Two, in Wilt's 62 season the NBA scoring average was 119 ppg, and in '87 in was 110 ppg. Let's give Wilt credit for raising his team's scoring above the league average, and MJ for lowering his team below the league average. And MJ's high season in MPG was 40.4. Wilt, in his LAST season, and age 36, played 43 mpg. Here again, we can't discredit Chamberlain for being the ONLY player to average over 47 mpg and he did it FOUR times, and then 46+ mpg another THREE. Clearly, even in leagues when players averaged more mpg, he still led the league NINE years. And once again, if you argue PACE, then LEAGUE AVERAGE FG% has to come into play, as well. Take Wilt's .506 in '62 (or his '528 in '63 when he averaged 45 ppg), and it jumps to nearly .570 in '87.

No, league average FG% doesn't have to come into play when basketball was still a young professional sport in 1962, that was only the 16th NBA season including the 3 years it was the BAA. I personally feel the difference in FG% was due to the average player being more athletic and much more skilled in 1987 and 1988 than 1962.

And how about the league average for pace factor?

1962- 125.5
1987- 100.8
1988- 99.6

That's still a difference of 25-26 possessions per game, but most importantly, neither player's team played at the league average, Wilt's team played significantly above it and Jordan's team played significantly below it.

Wilt did play more minutes than anyone else, but players did on average in the 60's especially and early mid 70's. Oscar played over 45 mpg three consecutive seasons, Russell also averaged over 45 mpg once and was over 44 mpg five consecutive seasons, Tiny Archibald averaged 46 mpg one season, John Havlicek also was over 45 mpg twice, Elvin Hayes played over 45 mpg once.

Out of the top 42 seasons for mpg in a player, only one took place after the NBA/ABA merger and none of them after the 70's. In fact, Allen Iverson is the only player in the top 50 post-1980 with the 43rd highest mpg average in 2002.

By the way, coaches decide what style a team plays, for example, if Mike D'Antoni coaches a team, chances are, they're going to play a run and gun style.

[jlauber]

No, league average FG% doesn't have to come into play when basketball was still a young professional sport in 1962, that was only the 16th NBA season including the 3 years it was the BAA. I personally feel the difference in FG% was due to the average player being more athletic and much more skilled in 1987 and 1988 than 1962.

And how about the league average for pace factor?

1962- 125.5
1987- 100.8
1988- 99.6

That's still a difference of 25-26 possessions per game, but most importantly, neither player's team played at the league average, Wilt's team played significantly above it and Jordan's team played significantly below it.

Wilt did play more minutes than anyone else, but players did on average in the 60's especially and early mid 70's. Oscar played over 45 mpg three consecutive seasons, Russell also averaged over 45 mpg once and was over 44 mpg five consecutive seasons, Tiny Archibald averaged 46 mpg one season, John Havlicek also was over 45 mpg twice, Elvin Hayes played over 45 mpg once.

Out of the top 42 seasons for mpg in a player, only one took place after the NBA/ABA merger and none of them after the 70's. In fact, Allen Iverson is the only player in the top 50 post-1980 with the 43rd highest mpg average in 2002.

By the way, coaches decide what style a team plays, for example, if Mike D'Antoni coaches a team, chances are, they're going to play a run and gun style.

League Average FG% in the early 60's was influenced by MANY factors. Cold arenas, breezy arenas, uneven floors, travel and MANY B2B2B2B games, and the most important, IMHO, was that the BALL was not uniform, until 1970 or so.

In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average team took 108 FGAs and 37 FTAs, while in MJ's '86-87 season, the average team took 89 FGAs and 30 FTAs per game. Reduce Wilt's 39.5 FGAs in '62 down to '87 levels, and he would have taken 32 FGAs per game. Even before factoring in FG%, Wilt would have made 16 FGs per game, or 32 ppg. Reduce his 17 FTAs in '62 down to '87 levels, and he would have attempted 14 FTAs per game. And, based on that, he would have made about 9 per game. 32+9= 41 ppg. Now, raise his .506 FG% in a league that shot .426, to a league that shot .480, and it would be about .570. Which would have added about 2 more FGs to his totals, or 36+9= 45 ppg.

As far as his minutes were concerned. MJ had ONE post-season of 45 mpg, and it occurred in a 3 game series. In fact, his high mpg in any post-season over 4 games, was 42.7 mpg, and his career average was 41.8 mpg in the post-season. Remarkably, Wilt ELEVATED his already staggering mpg records in the post-season. He had TWO post-seasons of OVER 48 mpg, and TWO moe at 48 mpg. In fact, Chamberlain averaged 47.2 mpg in his 160 game post-season career. And, in his LAST season, at age 36, he averaged 47.1 mpg in his 17 post-season games.

But, here again, if you are going to reduce Wilt's minutes, then, in theory, you should elevate his efficiency. While his scoring would drop, it would be offset somewhat by a still higher efficiency.

The bottom line, though, was that Wilt was the ONLY player who could consistently play HUGE minutes,...even in HIS era (although Russell was close...especially in the playoffs.)

[Fatal9]

jesus christ, ^^ this ******* turned this into a Wilt thread too? :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

League Average FG% in the early 60's was influenced by MANY factors. Cold arenas, breezy arenas, uneven floors, travel and MANY B2B2B2B games, and the most important, IMHO, was that the BALL was not uniform, until 1970 or so.

In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average team took 108 FGAs and 37 FTAs, while in MJ's '86-87 season, the average team took 89 FGAs and 30 FTAs per game. Reduce Wilt's 39.5 FGAs in '62 down to '87 levels, and he would have taken 32 FGAs per game. Even before factoring in FG%, Wilt would have made 16 FGs per game, or 32 ppg. Reduce his 17 FTAs in '62 down to '87 levels, and he would have attempted 14 FTAs per game. And, based on that, he would have made about 9 per game. 32+9= 41 ppg. Now, raise his .506 FG% in a league that shot .426, to a league that shot .480, and it would be about .570. Which would have added about 2 more FGs to his totals, or 36+9= 45 ppg.

As far as his minutes were concerned. MJ had ONE post-season of 45 mpg, and it occurred in a 3 game series. In fact, his high mpg in any post-season over 4 games, was 42.7 mpg, and his career average was 41.8 mpg in the post-season. Remarkably, Wilt ELEVATED his already staggering mpg records in the post-season. He had TWO post-seasons of OVER 48 mpg, and TWO moe at 48 mpg. In fact, Chamberlain averaged 47.2 mpg in his 160 game post-season career. And, in his LAST season, at age 36, he averaged 47.1 mpg in his 17 post-season games.

But, here again, if you are going to reduce Wilt's minutes, then, in theory, you should elevate his efficiency. While his scoring would drop, it would be offset somewhat by a still higher efficiency.

The bottom line, though, was that Wilt was the ONLY player who could consistently play HUGE minutes,...even in HIS era (although Russell was close...especially in the playoffs.)

Raising his FG%? :facepalm If anything, he'd be getting fewer easy shots, particularly if he played at Jordan's '87 or '88 Bulls. 34 fewer possessions means A LOT less lay ups and easy transition baskets. Would his FG% rise on fewer attempts, maybe, maybe not, but it's no guarantee and there's certainly no way to determine by how much it would increase or decrease in the late 80's.

Wilt was the only one who could play huge minutes? I just named guys who while they didn't play as many minutes as Wilt played an incredible amount of minutes and that stars played considerably more minutes in his era. I guess players had worse stamina than a league full of guys who didn't lift weights, didn't have the same trainers and smoked at halftime. :rolleyes: And no, I'm not referring to Wilt with that last comment.

Who says Jordan couldn't have played more minutes? He was playing more minutes than anyone in the league at his time a few seasons.

And really, there's no reason to play as many minutes as Wilt did, whether you want to say it was the coach's decision or call out Wilt for statpadding, it doesn't matter, regardless of why he played that many minutes there's simply no reason to be on the court for every minute of three separate 40+ point blowouts in one season, hell, twenty seven or twenty eight 15+ point blowouts, fifteen or sixteen 20+ blowouts ect.

[Shep]

2009 lebron without question.

66 wins with that supporting cast

comparable numbers with a extreme pace disadvantage

played much better in the playoffs

[donald_trump]

this is the single most stupidest argument by any NBA fan ever made.

Back than league ave 10.8 more points than today.

Have today's dumb stans ever figured out these facts.

Free throw shooting %age much better in 1985.

FG selection much better in 1985.

Much better fundamentals like picking up easy assist, or stl the ball breakaway lay up better in 1985.

Players were much more talented fundamentally in 1985 because of mandatory atleast 2 yrs of NCAA.

Extremely limited european or non-american talent cuz NBA was considered notch above cuz of its height & much more physicality.

& you still wanna harp on 10ppg more in 1985 & still fail to see how it came.:facepalm

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/03/04/sports/04freethrow.grafic.html

this chart says your lying. free throw percentage was not better.

picking up a steal was easier due to being allowed to have a hand on the man to track the movement in his hips.

no, players are no more fundamental then than they are now. this lie has to stop.

the 11ppg extra came from a faster pace, worse defense and a less fundamental game if anything. players now are far more drilled with the plays they have to run and particularly how to play team defense.

[jlauber]

Raising his FG%? :facepalm If anything, he'd be getting fewer easy shots, particularly if he played at Jordan's '87 or '88 Bulls. 34 fewer possessions means A LOT less lay ups and easy transition baskets. Would his FG% rise on fewer attempts, maybe, maybe not, but it's no guarantee and there's certainly no way to determine by how much it would increase or decrease in the late 80's.

Wilt was the only one who could play huge minutes? I just named guys who while they didn't play as many minutes as Wilt played an incredible amount of minutes and that stars played considerably more minutes in his era. I guess players had worse stamina than a league full of guys who didn't lift weights, didn't have the same trainers and smoked at halftime. :rolleyes: And no, I'm not referring to Wilt with that last comment.

Who says Jordan couldn't have played more minutes? He was playing more minutes than anyone in the league at his time a few seasons.

And really, there's no reason to play as many minutes as Wilt did, whether you want to say it was the coach's decision or call out Wilt for statpadding, it doesn't matter, regardless of why he played that many minutes there's simply no reason to be on the court for every minute of three separate 40+ point blowouts in one season, hell, twenty seven or twenty eight 15+ point blowouts, fifteen or sixteen 20+ blowouts ect.

We have been over these points dozens of times. YES, Wilt's FG% WOULD rise, just like virtually EVERYONE else's did in the 80's. PARTICULARLY players that played in the early 60's. Once again, those players had to deal with cold and breezy arenas, five games in five nights, poorer travel conditions, and the biggest of all, different basketballs. Once again, the basketball did not become uniform until the late 60's or early 70's. There was a video of Wilt taken when he was younger, palming two basketballs. They both looked like cheap worn-out balls that school yard kids play with during their breaks. And I remember playing city league games in which EVERY ball was different. Some were lighter, some heavier, some bald, and even some were lopsided.

As for Wilt playing nearly EVERY minute in a season. You mentioned Iverson, who played nearly 44 mpg. Lebron had a season a couple of years ago at nearly 43 mpg. When Wilt was playing 48 nearly EVERY season, at least in his first 10 years or so, he was ALWAYS 2-3 minutes ahead of the next guy. BUT, aside from Russell, very few other players could handle it for more than one season either. Wilt did it nearly EVERY season. And one of the main reasons was that he suffered from arthritis in both knees. His legs would stiffen up if he sat for extended periods of time. My god, the man was running marathons in his early 60's for cryingoutloud. He was a near superhuman athlete...and way ahead of his time. He was a multiple track star, which included the high jump, long jump, 4x100 sprinter, 440, 880, and shot put. He was reportedly capable of benching 500+ lbs., in any era when the world record was something like 615 lbs. In any case, he was, by far-and-away, the strongest basketball player of his generation.

Back to the 80's...Kareem, Dantley, Gilmore, etc...ALL not only shot a higher FG%, even at advanced ages, they shot WAY better than they did in the 70's. Why? Did they become, as you stated, better athletes in the 80's? The ENTIRE league average jumped from about .450 in 1970, nearly every year, until .491 in the mid-80's. My god, Gilmore averaged 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting in 76-77. In 80-81 he averaged 18.5 ppg on .652 shooting (and 17.9 ppg on .670 in 79-80.) Kareem shot .513 in 74-75. In his 75-76 season he averaged 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting. In his 79-80 season, he averaged 24.8 ppg on .604 shooting. And a year later, in 80-81, at age 33, 26.2 on .574 shooting. He even shot .599 , at 22.0 ppg, at age 37. Dantley just obliterated his shooting numbers of the late 70's. But once again, the ENTIRE league shot better. There were a PLETHORA of LOSING teams that shot over 50% during the decade of the 80's. The 84-85 Kings shot .504, and went 31-51 for chrissakes.

So, there is just no way that I am going to believe that players like Jerry West, who shot .419 and .445 in two seasons in the early 60's, would not have dramatically shot better in the 80's. Or John Havlicek, who had EIGHT seasons in the 70's that were better than his best season in the 60's (and with a low of .399 in the mid-60's), would not have shot even better in the 80's.

And, Wilt in the first half of the 60's was not just dropping the ball in the basket. You have seen the now removed highlight footage. He was hitting bank shots from 15+ ft, hook shots, jump shots from the FT line, and a turn-around jump shot from 8-10 ft. And, the widening of the lane had virtually no effect on his scoring, and judging by his FG%, he actually became more efficient! So, if you took a Wilt, from the early 60's, in league's that shot as low as .410 (.426 in '62), and placed him in the 84-85 season, when the entire league was shooting was .491, and scoring 111 ppg...his shooting attempts would drop slightly, but his effiiciency would have gone thru the roof. IMHO, the 80's were the WORST defensive era in NBA history. It was basically fast-break basketball with no dominant defensive centers to lock up the lanes. Put 61-62 Wilt in that era, and he would have flourished.

[ShaqAttack3234]

We have been over these points dozens of times. YES, Wilt's FG% WOULD rise, just like virtually EVERYONE else's did in the 80's. PARTICULARLY players that played in the early 60's. Once again, those players had to deal with cold and breezy arenas, five games in five nights, poorer travel conditions, and the biggest of all, different basketballs. Once again, the basketball did not become uniform until the late 60's or early 70's. There was a video of Wilt taken when he was younger, palming two basketballs. They both looked like cheap worn-out balls that school yard kids play with during their breaks. And I remember playing city league games in which EVERY ball was different. Some were lighter, some heavier, some bald, and even some were lopsided.

We have no idea if his FG% would rise, maybe going up against players who on average were bigger, more skilled and more athletic as well as far fewer transition opportunities and more set halfcourt defenses(the 80's was fast, and not the best defensive era, but FAR slower than the 60's) would have lowered it. There's no way of knowing.

Here's some information(credit to Fatal for the info). Tallest rotation players aside aside from Wilt and Russell in the early 60's. Rotation player= over 20 mpg.

1960- Walter Dukes

1961- Dukes and Phil Jordan.

1962- Dukes, Phil Jordan and Walt Bellamy

1963- Bellamy was the only other rotation player over 6'10" and only 3 were over 6'9".


As for Wilt playing nearly EVERY minute in a season. You mentioned Iverson, who played nearly 44 mpg. Lebron had a season a couple of years ago at nearly 43 mpg. When Wilt was playing 48 nearly EVERY season, at least in his first 10 years or so, he was ALWAYS 2-3 minutes ahead of the next guy. BUT, aside from Russell, very few other players could handle it for more than one season either. Wilt did it nearly EVERY season. And one of the main reasons was that he suffered from arthritis in both knees. His legs would stiffen up if he sat for extended periods of time. My god, the man was running marathons in his early 60's for cryingoutloud. He was a near superhuman athlete...and way ahead of his time. He was a multiple track star, which included the high jump, long jump, 4x100 sprinter, 440, 880, and shot put. He was reportedly capable of benching 500+ lbs., in any era when the world record was something like 615 lbs. In any case, he was, by far-and-away, the strongest basketball player of his generation.

When Iverson played 43.7 mpg in 2002, it was the only top 50 season for mpg that wasn't in the 50's, 60's or 70's. He also only played 60 games and that was 1.6 mpg higher than the next highest player.

I don't know how many minutes Wilt would play now, but I seriously doubt it'd be around 48 and I doubt even more that he'd be on the court for all of those blowouts


Back to the 80's...Kareem, Dantley, Gilmore, etc...ALL not only shot a higher FG%, even at advanced ages, they shot WAY better than they did in the 70's. Why? Did they become, as you stated, better athletes in the 80's? The ENTIRE league average jumped from about .450 in 1970, nearly every year, until .491 in the mid-80's. My god, Gilmore averaged 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting in 76-77. In 80-81 he averaged 18.5 ppg on .652 shooting (and 17.9 ppg on .670 in 79-80.) Kareem shot .513 in 74-75. In his 75-76 season he averaged 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting. In his 79-80 season, he averaged 24.8 ppg on .604 shooting. And a year later, in 80-81, at age 33, 26.2 on .574 shooting. He even shot .599 , at 22.0 ppg, at age 37. Dantley just obliterated his shooting numbers of the late 70's. But once again, the ENTIRE league shot better. There were a PLETHORA of LOSING teams that shot over 50% during the decade of the 80's. The 84-85 Kings shot .504, and went 31-51 for chrissakes.

Don't believe talent had anything to do with it? In the 3 seasons before the merger, the league was between 45.7%-45.9% on average and in the 3 seasons after it, the league was at 46.5%, 46.9% and 48.5%, respectively. All of these seasons were in the 70's.

Then you had stars like Magic and Bird who entered the league in 1980 and revolutionized the game, as well as other players who as the 80's went on like Jordan, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, Ralph Sampson and Patrick Ewing. The game was changing, the sport was more popular, and more talent was entering the league.

This happened in the 60's as well when players entered the league and revolutionized the game with more athleticism such as Wilt, Russell and Baylor and more advanced, well-rounded skill sets such as Oscar and West. The league's FG% improved dramatically. Did defense get worse from the 50's?(i'm not talking pre-shot clock era) Were playing conditions any better in the 50's than the 60's?

Regarding Kareem and the seasons you cited.

1975- 24.4 FGA
1976- 21.1 FGA
1980- 16.9 FGA
1981- 18.2 FGA
1985- 15.3 FGA

You notice how much his FGA dropped? He also had a far better playmaker in Magic(as well as Nixon in '80 and '81) and MUCH more offensive talent around him than his '75 and '76 teams that were well below .500 teams without him, so nobody to take pressure off of him.

How was Dantley at an advanced age. His scoring prime was from '80-'86 when he ranged from 23-29 years old and he entered his scoring prime the first season he became a number option instead of being the 3rd or 4th option on the '79 Lakers.

There's absolutely nothing unusual about a player improving at 23 years old, particularly in a bigger role. And 29 is far from an advanced age, most players are still in their prime at that age.

By the way, when Dantley improved from 17 ppg on 51% shooting to 28 ppg on 58% shooting from '79 to '80, the league FG% didn't improve, it dropped from 48.5% to 48.1%.


So, there is just no way that I am going to believe that players like Jerry West, who shot .419 and .445 in two seasons in the early 60's, would not have dramatically shot better in the 80's. Or John Havlicek, who had EIGHT seasons in the 70's that were better than his best season in the 60's (and with a low of .399 in the mid-60's), would not have shot even better in the 80's.

You cited West's first 2 seasons, his FG% rose each of his first 5 seasons, in his 3rd year, it rose to 46.1%, in his 4th year it rose to 48.4% and in his 5th season to 49.7%. It's not uncommon for players to improve a lot in their first 5 seasons. Not only was the 44.5% season just his second year in the league, but he also averaged a career high number of FGA.


And, Wilt in the first half of the 60's was not just dropping the ball in the basket. You have seen the now removed highlight footage. He was hitting bank shots from 15+ ft, hook shots, jump shots from the FT line, and a turn-around jump shot from 8-10 ft. And, the widening of the lane had virtually no effect on his scoring, and judging by his FG%, he actually became more efficient! So, if you took a Wilt, from the early 60's, in league's that shot as low as .410 (.426 in '62), and placed him in the 84-85 season, when the entire league was shooting was .491, and scoring 111 ppg...his shooting attempts would drop slightly, but his effiiciency would have gone thru the roof. IMHO, the 80's was the WORST defensive era in NBA history. It was basically fast-break basketball with no dominant defensive centers to lock up the lanes. Put 61-62 Wilt in that era, and he would have flourished.

So the 80's was fastbreak basketball when the early 60's had around 25 more possessions on average? By the way, Jordan's '87 and '88 Bulls played at virtually the same pace as Kobe's Lakers did in his MVP season.

[EleganceD]

What? How did Wilt get into this thread? :oldlol:

[PHILA]

We have no idea if his FG% would rise, maybe going up against players who on average were bigger, more skilled and more athletic as well as far fewer transition opportunities and more set halfcourt defenses(the 80's was fast, and not the best defensive era, but FAR slower than the 60's) would have lowered it. There's no way of knowing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWZ5eNb3IIU#t=03m34s

"Thurmond was quick enough to come out and challenge my shot," Lanier said. "But he was also quick enough to recover and get my layup if I got by him. Shaq has not played against anybody like that, I'll guarantee you."


Here's some information(credit to Fatal for the info). Tallest rotation players aside aside from Wilt and Russell in the early 60's. Rotation player= over 20 mpg.

1960- Walter Dukes

1961- Dukes and Phil Jordan.

1962- Dukes, Phil Jordan and Walt Bellamy

1963- Bellamy was the only other rotation player over 6'10" and only 3 were over 6'9".
Height in this case not as important as size and "I've been mismatched quite few times," Unseld admitted, but I've had a lot of success inside.


One of Wilt's toughest matchups was "The Wall", a powerful 6'8 center Wayne Embry, whom teammate Big O referred to as shortest center in the league.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/7eb/wayne-embry-royals-vs-celtics-unsigned-8x10-photo_7eba2dd51adf960e4f48860012c92c0c.jpg


To quote from another forum:

There were 125 player on NBA rosters in 1962. They averaged 6' 5.25" in height, measured barefoot or in socks.

The players break down in the following manner

9 Cs -- Average Height 6' 11"
9 C/Fs -- Average Height 6' 8.67"
18 F/Cs -- Average Height 6' 7.39"
27 Fs -- Average Height 6' 6.11"
8 F/Gs -- Average Height 6' 4.75"
15 G/Fs -- Average Height 6' 4.07"
39 Gs -- Average Height 6' 2.08"

This means, with the added 1.25" for shoes, that in modern terms

The average NBA C was 6' 11.085". (All of the Cs and C/Fs--2 per team)
The average NBA F was 6' 7.87" (All of the F/Cs and Fs--5 per team)
The average NBA G was 6' 3.88" (All of the Gs and G/Fs--6 per team)
Almost every team had a swingman that was 6'6" (The F/Gs)

So a typical team would have had a lineup like this

C--6' 11"
PF--6' 9.5"
SF--6' 6.5"
SG--6' 5"
PG--6' 2"

Again, fill me in here. How is that small?


But, look, make it easier on yourself. You can see average player heights listed at the APBR.com site. You can, literally, see when players began to be measured with shoes. It started in the mid-70s. Between 1975 and 1983, average player heights grew one inch. They went up another 1/2" three years after that. By 1986, there was almost nobody remaining in the league that had been measured barefoot/in socks...and average player height leveled off and stayed right where it is now (it has actually dropped a bit in the last 25 years). And it is almost exactly 1 to 1.5" above where players were 40 years ago...which is almost exactly the push people get in height from being measured in shoes. You don't have to be a genius to make the connection.



http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/columns/lawrence/836066.html

Wes Unseld would have affected Shaq in another way. With power. These days, Shaq sometimes has his toughest matchups with hulking, power forwards, like Portland's Dale Davis or Miami's Anthony Mason. They tend to do a better job than taller players battling O'Neal as he tries to establish himself in the low post.


http://i52.tinypic.com/29zrmu8.jpg




In his autobiography, Embry recalls the 6'10, 250 lb Dick "Cement Mixer" Cunningham's first game against Wilt in '69.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2w24ndu.jpg






It's not like he came in as a rookie overpowering a bunch of "midget stiffs".

http://i56.tinypic.com/do1d8n.png

[Psileas]

Raising his FG%? If anything, he'd be getting fewer easy shots, particularly if he played at Jordan's '87 or '88 Bulls. 34 fewer possessions means A LOT less lay ups and easy transition baskets. Would his FG% rise on fewer attempts, maybe, maybe not, but it's no guarantee and there's certainly no way to determine by how much it would increase or decrease in the late 80's.

Why do you think players in the early 60's, either small or big, ran and shot more and yet shot at lower %'s? Definitely not by taking more easy shots. On the contrary, they were taking a large number of random and bad circumstances' shots that they'd certainly reduce if they grew up in later eras. Why did Wilt, the most athletic player in his era, shoot in the low 50's early on? Same reason. So did more big men later on, like Hakeem or Garnett (fade-aways, non-short range shots), with the difference being that their physical advantages over their opponents are smaller, but also that they practiced in better circumstances. Really, I see no reason why Wilt's %'s would be any lower if he played in later eras. 1967 is evident. In a better defensive league than the 1962 one, Wilt cuts his unnecessary shots to a minimum and shoots an unprecedented 68.3%.

[jlauber]

These "myths" that Wilt only faced short uncoordinated centers in his career have been COMPLETELY TRASHED. In his 62-63 season, he wasn't even the tallest person in the league (Swede Holbrook at 7-3.) BUT, not only that, he had 24 games of 40+ against Russell in his career, with FIVE of over 50, and a HIGH of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) He had THREE 60+ point games against 6-11 Bellamy, with a HIGH of 73. He had THREE 50+ point games against Reed, with a high of 58. He had a 45 point game against Thurmond (outscoring him 45-13), the same Thurmond who never allowed a 40 point game to Kareem in 61 H2H battles, and in fact held him WAY BELOW his scoring and FG% numbers.

A PRIME Wilt could score against ANYONE. Even later in his career, in seasons in which he hardly shot the ball, he would still put up the high games each year. One of the best examples was Wilt's 68-69 season. His idiotic COACH had no clue how to use him, and asked that he sacrifice HIS offense, so that a declining Baylor could still shoot. Well, it got so bad, that SI ran an article claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Chamberlain responded with a 60 point game...and a few days later he poured in 66 (on 29-35 shooting.) In fact over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt averaged 31.1 ppg, including a 35 point game against Russell, which was his highest scoring game against him since his 46 point game in game five of the '66 ECF's.

In the 69-70 season, Wilt's new coach asked that Wilt become the focal point of the offense, and he responded with a 32.2 ppg average in his first nine games. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 in those nine games...and in another game against Kareem, he buried Abdul Jabbar with a 25 point, 25 rebound, 9-14 shooting game (while outscoring, outrebounding, outassisting, outblocking, and outshooting him.) Had he not sustained a devastating knee injury in that ninth game (in which he had scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW), I have no doubt that he would have led the NBA in scoring that season, as well.

The FACTS were, Wilt DOMINATED some 13 HOF centers in his career, and before YouTube removed many of his videos, there was even one in which he abused 7-2 Artis Gilmore in a limited H2H battle. Chamberlain was capable of 60 point games even late in his career, and, at his peak, was the most unstoppable offensive force in the history of the game.

[G-Funk]

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lebron

[Samurai Swoosh]

Can't believe this question is being asked ...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wes Unseld would have affected Shaq in another way. With power. These days, Shaq sometimes has his toughest matchups with hulking, power forwards, like Portland's Dale Davis or Miami's Anthony Mason. They tend to do a better job than taller players battling O'Neal as he tries to establish himself in the low post.


:oldlol: at Unseld guarding Shaq. Dale Davis? All of the double teams in the world couldn't save him from Shaq averaging 38/17/3 on 61% shooting vs him and his team in the 2000 finals.



Why do you think players in the early 60's, either small or big, ran and shot more and yet shot at lower %'s? Definitely not by taking more easy shots. On the contrary, they were taking a large number of random and bad circumstances' shots that they'd certainly reduce if they grew up in later eras. Why did Wilt, the most athletic player in his era, shoot in the low 50's early on? Same reason. So did more big men later on, like Hakeem or Garnett (fade-aways, non-short range shots), with the difference being that their physical advantages over their opponents are smaller, but also that they practiced in better circumstances. Really, I see no reason why Wilt's %'s would be any lower if he played in later eras. 1967 is evident. In a better defensive league than the 1962 one, Wilt cuts his unnecessary shots to a minimum and shoots an unprecedented 68.3%.

We're talking about the difference between 39.5 FGA and 14.2 FGA.

By the way, this is a much more logical explanation for the league's average FG% than defense being better in the 60's, it's probably a combination of what you said and players skills progressing(as well as athleticism).


The FACTS were, Wilt DOMINATED some 13 HOF centers in his career, and before YouTube removed many of his videos, there was even one in which he abused 7-2 Artis Gilmore in a limited H2H battle. Chamberlain was capable of 60 point games even late in his career, and, at his peak, was the most unstoppable offensive force in the history of the game.

Keep an eye out for a thread of mine in the next few days. :lol

[Round Mound]

Jordan had better teamates so as an MVP for that year id go with Lebron. Overall player id go with Jordan ofcourse

[PHILA]

:oldlol: at Unseld guarding Shaq.What's so funny. Despite his height he was a much more ideal matchup than a 7'2, 35 yr. old DPOY in Deke. Or a big slow stiff like T-Mac whom you have stated would hold Chamberlain to sub-50% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783610&postcount=97) shooting in the 2002 Finals.


They tend to do a better job than taller players battling O'Neal as he tries to establish himself in the low post.



Of course undersized Malik Rose defended Shaq well, as would big Wayne Embry.


05/10/2002

Beckett "taught me that if you neutralize a guy's legs, you can beat him. That worked 100% of the time in high school," Rose said. "In this league, the guys are such great athletes, it works 70-75% of the time.

Shaq not fond of playing vs. Rose

At 6-6, Rose does as well against Shaquille O'Neal as any defender in the league. He has quickness and gets right up in O'Neal's face, er, chest, er, waist. "He can be annoying," O'Neal said.

"I know I'm going to take some shots when I'm on him," Rose said, "and that doesn't scare me. I stay low on him and try to make him work."

Rose did a lot of the dirty work in Tuesday's 88-85 win. He had 11 rebounds, nine points and four assists in 31 minutes, going mainly against O'Neal, who had only seven rebounds and 19 points.




Wes Unseld was effective against KAJ as well.


Nov 25, 1972

Unseld, who plays Kareem Abdul Jabbar as tough as any- one in the league, suffered a pulled back muscle in the romp over Buffalo here Wednesday night.



Mar 14, 1979

http://i55.tinypic.com/105qp35.png

[PHILA]

http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/columns/lawrence/836066.html

"There's never been a center built like Wes," Williams said. "Not with those two redwoods that were his legs. Wes would have battled him. Shaq might have worn him out, physically, but he would have needed an ice bath for an hour after the game."

[jlauber]

http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/columns/lawrence/836066.html

"There's never been a center built like Wes," Williams said. "Not with those two redwoods that were his legs. Wes would have battled him. Shaq might have worn him out, physically, but he would have needed an ice bath for an hour after the game."

One of the biggest fallacies about basketball is the notion that tall players dominate the game. Of course, one of the biggest myth's in the "anti-Wilt" arguments, is that he only faced short, skinny 6-6 white centers. The average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. Last year it was about 7-0. Furthermore, as PHILA has alluded to, the players of the 60's were actually measured differently...without shoes. And several were probably TALLER than what they were listed as. Bill Russell somehow went from 6-10 in college, to 6-9 in the pros.

In any case, the late 80's actually had more taller centers than any other period of time in NBA history. At one point, I counted 35 seven-footers in one season. The result? One guard, 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever, was among the league leaders in rebounds. There were a plethora of 7-0 players who couldn't get 7-8 rpg. I have mentioned it before, but there has NEVER been a 7-3+ player ever lead the NBA in rebounding. In fact, take Gilmore's ABA rebounding out of the equation, and there has only been THREE seasons, in which a LISTED 7-2+ player has led the NBA in rebounding. 7-2 Motumbo twice, and 7-2 Kareem did it once (and he barely edged 6-9 Dave Cowens, with 6-7 Wes Unseld, and 6-7 Paul Silas right behind.)

In fact, there have been very few LEGITIMATE seven-footers who have won rebouning titles. Hakeem was barely 6-10, so he does not count. And, aside from Wilt, and his ELEVEN titles, the cupboard has been pretty much bare for the seven-footers. Furthermore, if you go with Russell at 6-9, there have been nearly as many sub 6-10 players winning rebounding titles, than 6-10+ players. My god, 6-6 Charles Barkley, 6-7 Truck Robinson, 6-7 Ben Wallace, and 6-8 Dennis Rodman (with his SEVEN rebounding titles) were much more dominant than their 7-0 peers.

And who would ever have believed that TODAY's NBA would see a 6-9 white player not only leading the league in rebounding, but running away with the rebounding title? And in the last few years the afore-mentioned Wallace won TWO rebounding titles. And we even saw 6-6 Chuck Hayes playing center for the Rockets.

[jlauber]

By the way, this is a much more logical explanation for the league's average FG% than defense being better in the 60's, it's probably a combination of what you said and players skills progressing(as well as athleticism).



The truly great defensive centers resided in the 60's. Thurmond and Wilt proved that by severely limiting Kareem in the early 70's, in Kareem's statistical prime, and at well past their own primes. Hell, Wilt was battling Kareem at 11 years older, on one surgically repaired knee, and the other with chronic arthritis.

But once again, it wasn't just the defense in the 60's that inhibited shooting. You have yet to address the fact that the CONDITIONS were also much worse. Cold and breezy arenas. Dead spots on the floors. Fans shaking the basket structures. Scheduling was another HUGE factor. In Wilt's 61-62 season, in which he played all but eight minutes of the entire schedule, he had a TON of B2B2B games, SEVERAL four-in-rows, and even a five-in-row schedule (which was H, A, H, A, H I believe...so he was not even able to rest at home.) And finally...and this continues to be the biggest, was the BALL. A non-uniform ball. I am not sure about the weighting back then, but clearly there were games in which the ball appeared to worn, or even bald. I have mentioned it before, but when I played city league ball in the late 60's and early 70's (and beyond), the ball was NEVER identical. They would bring out a rack of balls for the shoot-around, and then they would pick one of them. Some were lighter, some were heavier, some were bald, and some were even lopsided.

Then, there was also the factor of expansion. How would the players of the early 60's shot in much more diluted leagues like the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's? Had Wilt not faced HOF and All-star centers on a nightly basis in the early to mid-60's, and instead faced many more clods, and much more often, how much better would his numbers have been?

So, YES, LEAGUE AVERAGE was extremely important, even to a player like Chamberlain, who took many of his shots from 10+ feet back then. As I have also stated before, the widening of the lane had NO EFFECT on Chamberlain. In the last year before they widened it, Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in a league that shot .433. In the first year of the new lane, during the first half of the season, and playing ill, Chamberlain was averaging 39 ppg on 50% shooting. He was traded at mid-season to a better roster, and finished the year at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting. However, in the very next season, he not only averaged 33.5 ppg, but his .540 FG% was a new record...and again, in a league that only shot .433.

And I have long maintained that he could EASILY have scored 40+ ppg in his 66-67 season. He only took 14 FGAs per game in that season, but he still averaged 24.1 ppg, and his .683 FG% not only shattered his own record, it came in a league that shot .441. His nearest competitor, Walt Bellamy was a distant second at .521. That .162 differential is still the largest in NBA history, and aside from Wilt's .157 differential in 72-73, there has never been an NBA player that approached even a 100 point margin over their next peer. But, back to his scoring in that season. The best example I can give, was when Hannum decided to have his team feed Wilt in the second half of a game in which they trailed at halftime. The game was against Thurmond's Warriors, and Wilt poured in 24 second half points, to finish with 30 points, 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks. He also had 22 points in the first half of the clinching game five win over Russell's Celtics in the '67 ECF's that season (he finished with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, and 13 assists.) He also had the HIGH game in the league that season, with 58 points (on 26-34 shooting), and had three perfect games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18. In that 18-18 game, he finished with 43 points. The fact was, the more he shot, the better he shot.

Wilt was spectacular in the following season, as well. He averaged 24.3 ppg on .595 shooting, in a league that shot .446. BUT, as remarkable as that season was, it just pales in comparison to his '67 season. Still, in that '68 season, in a year in which he only averaged 17 FGAs per game, he had the FOUR highest games, of 52, 53, 53, and a 68 point explosion.

So, IMHO, Wilt, in his physical prime in '67, and being asked to carry a team offensively, could easily have scored 40 ppg. Even Rick Barry, who won the scoring title at 35.6 ppg acknowledged that had Wilt wanted the scoring title, he would have had it.

And, once again, Wilt proved in the 68-69 season, that had he been ALLOWED to shoot much more, he probably could have won the scoring title that year, as well. Elvin Hayes won the scoring crown that season, at 28.4 ppg, but here again, when Wilt was criticized for his lack of scoring at mid-season, he went on a 17 game tear in which he averaged 31.1 ppg. Included in those 17 games were games of 60 and 66 points (and once again, on a staggering 29-35 from the field.) He even poured in 35 points against Russell in that stretch.

Then, in the 69-70 season, he was averaging 32.2 ppg in his first nine games, when he went down with his knee injury.

So, IMHO, had Wilt been asked to score more, and had he avoided that injury in 69-70, he probably would have won 11 scoring titles, and surely 10. And, I suspect that he could have easily scored 40 ppg in '67 (and probably on an eye-popping FG%, as well.)

Even after his leg injury, which limited his lateral movement somewhat, (although not his vertical leap), he probably could have scored much more by just overpowering his opponents. In his 71-72 season, he put up two 30-30 games, and one of them was against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier (31-31.) In his last season, in which he seven shots per game, he even had a game in which he outscored Kareem, 24-21, and outshot him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Another example of his dominance, in his scoring prime, was his 42 point explosion in the '62 All-Star game (on 17-23 shooting and with 24 rebounds.) But, even beyond all the sheer numbers, was the fact that Wilt POUNDED even the great Bill Russell in MANY of their 142 H2H games. 24 games of 40+ points, FIVE of 50+ (including one 50-35 game in the '60 ECF's), and even a 62 point game on 27-45 shooting. And, in his scoring prime, he had three SEASONS against Russell, in which he averaged 38 ppg. I also posted this previously, but he battered HOFer Bellamy with THREE 60+ point games, including a high of 73. He shredded HOFer Reed with THREE 50+ point games, including a high game of 58. And he even smacked HOFer Thurmond, in their few limited H2H games in Chamberlain's "scoring" prime. He had a 45 point game against him (outscoring him by a 45-13 margin), and several in the 30's.

Wilt won his scoring titles by astonishing margins on two occasions, as well, with differentials of +10.8 and +18.8. And, as I already mentioned, when he had a mind-set to score, even later in his career, and before his injury, there was no one that could stop him. He even badly outplayed Kareem (albeit in Kareem's rookie season), in their one H2H game before his injury. And even that was well after his "scoring" seasons, and in which he was a much better all-around shooter.

So, in terms of dominating peers, there has never been anyone that could come close to Chamberlain's offensive dominance. And, what is even more frightening, was the fact that Chamberlain seldom used his massive edge in power to full advantage. Had he played like Shaq, and there is no question in my mind who the GOAT would be today.

[nycelt84]

To get this thread back on track I'd have to go with '09 Lebron as one of the greatest seasons any individual player has ever had.

[jlauber]

To get this thread back on track I'd have to go with '09 Lebron as one of the greatest seasons any individual player has ever had.

I actually agree with you. Especially when you consider he accomplished it with an average roster, at best, and took them to a 66-16 record.

[ginobli2311]

I actually agree with you. Especially when you consider he accomplished it with an average roster, at best, and took them to a 66-16 record.

yea. i don't know how you can play much better than lebron did in 09 in both the regular season and playoffs.

really only jordan has ever impacted the game on both ends the way lebron did that year from the perimeter.

[jlauber]

yea. i don't know how you can play much better than lebron did in 09 in both the regular season and playoffs.

really only jordan has ever impacted the game on both ends the way lebron did that year from the perimeter.

:cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

What's so funny. Despite his height he was a much more ideal matchup than a 7'2, 35 yr. old DPOY in Deke. Or a big slow stiff like T-Mac whom you have stated would hold Chamberlain to sub-50% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783610&postcount=97) shooting in the 2002 Finals.


They tend to do a better job than taller players battling O'Neal as he tries to establish himself in the low post.



Of course undersized Malik Rose defended Shaq well, as would big Wayne Embry.


05/10/2002

Beckett "taught me that if you neutralize a guy's legs, you can beat him. That worked 100% of the time in high school," Rose said. "In this league, the guys are such great athletes, it works 70-75% of the time.

Shaq not fond of playing vs. Rose

At 6-6, Rose does as well against Shaquille O'Neal as any defender in the league. He has quickness and gets right up in O'Neal's face, er, chest, er, waist. "He can be annoying," O'Neal said.

"I know I'm going to take some shots when I'm on him," Rose said, "and that doesn't scare me. I stay low on him and try to make him work."

Rose did a lot of the dirty work in Tuesday's 88-85 win. He had 11 rebounds, nine points and four assists in 31 minutes, going mainly against O'Neal, who had only seven rebounds and 19 points.




Wes Unseld was effective against KAJ as well.


Nov 25, 1972

Unseld, who plays Kareem Abdul Jabbar as tough as any- one in the league, suffered a pulled back muscle in the romp over Buffalo here Wednesday night.



Mar 14, 1979

http://i55.tinypic.com/105qp35.png

Your best bet against Shaq was to have a guy who could stop him from getting great position right away so he'd have to make a move and you could double team him. That's why Portland had success against him, Sabonis matched his size and so he couldn't just catch the ball in the lane as much giving them time to double him.

But Unseld? Ben Wallace was similar in size and a much better defensive player and he couldn't guard 2004 or 2006 Shaq. To guard prime Shaq, you need a bulky 7 footer and solid double teaming.

[ElGee]

Who in their right mind would take LeBron over Jordan. Have you not see LeBron's poor performance after poor performance in the clutch especially his inability to make free throws when it matters.

Actually LeBron's been the league's best performer down the stretch for years now, basically. And his clutch FT missed last week ended a streak of something like 20 straight in comparable late-game situations.

http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/the-nbas-best-players-in-the-clutch-since-2003/
http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/clutch-play-since-2004-playoff-numbers/

[ElGee]

How did this turn into a Wilt thread? :facepalm



Uh, there's a big difference between the pace Jordan's Bulls played at and Wilt's teams.

According to basketball-reference, Wilt's '62 Warriors had a pace factor of 129.7, the fastest pace in the league. In Jordan's two highest scoring seasons('87 and '88), his teams had pace factors of 95.8 and 95.5, respectively, which was the slowest pace in the league each season.

We're talking about a difference of roughly 34 possessions per game between their teams.

Pace factor= A team's number of possessions per 48 minutes

By the way, Jordan played 40 mpg in 1987 and 40.4 mpg in 1988, while Wilt played 48.5 mpg in 1962. And to put into perspective the difference in minutes that star players were playing, Jordan's 40.4 mpg led the league in '88 and he also led the league in total minutes in both seasons.

As a result, Wilt got 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA to work with. In '87, Jordan got 27.8 FGA and 11.9 FTA and in '88, 24.4 FGA and 10.5 FTA.

These factors made an enormous difference and make it impossible to compare their scoring average.



I don't know why you rank guys above Wilt(both Russell and Jordan) and then argue for Wilt in arguments vs both players.

Here you go: top pace normalized scoring seasons: http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/

[Poochymama]

Actually LeBron's been the league's best performer down the stretch for years now, basically. And his clutch FT missed last week ended a streak of something like 20 straight in comparable late-game situations.

http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/the-nbas-best-players-in-the-clutch-since-2003/
http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/clutch-play-since-2004-playoff-numbers/


Wow, thats amazing

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: at Lebron and Kobe in the clutch, those two are way ahead of the pack, especially Lebron.

[jlip]

Admittedly I haven't read through all of the posts, but there are few that I have read that I don't agree with.

There seems to be this unspoken psychological syndrome which wants to consider MJ great or better than almost everybody else in NBA history at every part of the game. Sorry... I don't share that view, even though he's on my short list of those who have a case at being the GOAT. Having said that, I would like to focus on MJ's and Lebron's passing during the seasons mentioned in this thread. As good as MJ was at passing I feel that there actually is a noticeable gap between Lebron and him with Lebron having the advantage.

By '90 as ShaqAttack mentions, MJ had become less ball dominant. Frankly, from my observation the Bulls' offense got better partially because of that. While this thread is basically looking at the '90 season, I think that it is fitting to mention a trend I had uncovered while working on another thread once. I noticed that from '89 to '92 the Bulls' offense improved in every way each season. Over that time the constant was MJ's assists went down and Pippen's went up. (From '91 to '92 MJ's did increase, but Pippen's also increased to a career high.) This is significant to this thread because IMO that at least implies that MJ may not have even been the best passer on his own team (even as early as '90 despite avg. more apg that Pippen). Whether people consider the book to be credible or not, Phil Jackson was quoted in The Jordan Rules as being rather critical of MJ's passing skills despite his impressive numbers at pg in '89. Now does that make MJ a poor passer in '90? No. It just means that he was good, but not elite. There is a difference.

Now some critics of Lebron tend to claim that he gets assists because he has the ball in his hands quite a bit. That's only partially true. That's like saying that a scorer scores a lot of points because he takes many shots...Duh...But Lebron has the ball in his hands a lot because passing/ facilitating is a natural part of his game. Are we forgetting that when he was drafted out of high school, the scouting reports were predicting him to be the next Magic Johnson because of his passing abilities and court vision at that size? (Now don't get me wrong. I don't feel that he is close to Magic in that area, but you get the point.)

IMO, and I don't think that its hyperbolic to say that the only players in the league in '09 who were better passers than Lebron were elite pgs (i.e. CP3, Nash, Kidd, etc.) With Lebron as the primary playmaker for the team, the '09 Cavs played at one of the slowest paces in the league (25th out of 30th), but they were 13th in ppg, and 4th in off. rating. They were also 6th in fg% and 2nd in 3pt %. The 3 pt. shot was a very important part of their game that season, and starters such as Mo Williams and Delonte West who played most of their time in the rotation with Lebron, shot what was at that point, career highs from the 3 pt. line. Even Varejao who started more than half the season had a career high fg% which was the result of many pick and rolls or pick and pops run with Lebron. What's also interesting is that Big Z shot roughly his career avg. from the field despite his game gravitating more towards the perimeter, even using the 3 point shot more.

Again in '90 MJ was a good passer, but I think that Lebron was much better at that facet of the game in '09. We are comparing a player who was good at it for his position in MJ to a player for whom passing is somewhat 2nd nature in Lebron.

[ElGee]

PHILA - In that same discussion (I believe) I presented my own research on height change and TrueLAFan's response (which you quoted in this thread) was simply "they used to measure in socks."

The difference in LISTED HEIGHTS from 1962 to 2002 was 1.77 inches (min 10 mpg).

Second, the difference between listed height and socks height appears to be something like 0.75 inches, not 1.25 inches. (Due to rounding and some players being listed at their actual height or a 1/4 inch shorter).

Third, the only problem with "Socks theory" is I've never seen it substantiated. It's a theory. When we look at the average height of rookie classes in the periods alleged to list height in shoes, we would see a sudden shift, and we don't. We see a steady shift.

There used to be no short players in the league. A few years there weren't even sub 6-0 guys IIRC. What has happened is the avg. PG height has remained the same with the introduction of mighty mites, and the avg. league change in height has been redistributed over the other four positions. It means even if you adjust for the "socks" theory, you get something like:

6-1 PG
6-5 SG
6-7 SF
6-9 PF
7-0 C

instead of
6-1
6-3
6-5
6-8
6-10

(The avg. center listed height in 1962 was 6-9.9, in 2002 it was 6-11.7) That's a significant difference to me, especially since one lineup looks like a medium-size college team and the other an average NBA team.

[jlauber]

Here you go: top pace normalized scoring seasons: http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/

Deeply flawed. In Wilt's '62 season, team' shot 108 FGAs per game, and 37 FTs per game. In Jordan's '87 season, team's took 89 FGAs and 30 FTs per game.

Reducing Wilt's '62 numbers down to '87 levels, and his FGAs drop from 39.5 per game, to 32 per game. His .506 FG% gives himn roughly 16 FGs made per game, or 32 ppg. His FTAs drop from 17 down to 14. With his .613 FT% in '62, he would make roughly 9 FTs per game in '87. 32+9 = 41 ppg.

BUT, while MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480, Chamberlain shot .506 in a league that shot .426. Raise Wilt's FG% to '87 levels, and it climbs to about .570...or another 2 FGs per game...or 36+9= 45 ppg.

IMHO, Kobe's '06 season is actually the second best season in terms of pure scoring in NBA history. Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg, in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454. By contrast, MJ's 37.1 ppg came in a league that averaged 110 ppg and shot .480, while Wilt's 50.4 ppg came in a league that averaged 119 ppg and shot .426.

How would Wilt's '62 season numbers have compared with Kobe's in '06? Kobe's league averaged 79 FGAs and 26 FTAs per game. So, Wilt would have taken 29 FGAs per game, and 12 FTAs per game. Without adjusting for FG%, Wilt would have made 14.5 FGs per game, and 7.5 FTs per game, or 36.5 ppg. However, he would have shot about .535 in '06, so you can add about 1 more FG made, or a total of 38.5 ppg.

Now, ShaqAttack would argue that Wilt would not have played 48.5 mpg in '06. And he is probably right. But, in a 30 team league, instead of a nine team league, he would have been playing in a much more diluted league, as well. Furthermore, how much more efficient would he have been playing 43-44 mpg, instead of 48?

And once again, per minute played, and adjusted for the levels of FGAs in their respective seasons, MJ and Kobe took more of their team's shots, than Wilt did in '62.

And BTW, while other's can argue other seasons for MJ and Kobe...IMHO, had a '67 Wilt been asked to carry the offensive load that season, he would easily have scored 40 ppg, and probably shot nearly 60%. We will never know, of course, but he was clearly in his prime in '67. And he dominated EVERY center in the league that year, in a 10 team league that had Bellamy, Reed, Lucas, Russell, Thurmond,...all in the HOF, as well as All-Star Zelmo Beatty. The league also had Dierking, Imhoff, and Counts...all in their primes, and all decent.

[Poochymama]

Deeply flawed. In Wilt's '62 season, team' shot 108 FGAs per game, and 37 FTs per game. In Jordan's '87 season, team's took 89 FGAs and 30 FTs per game.

Reducing Wilt's '62 numbers down to '87 levels, and his FGAs drop from 39.5 per game, to 32 per game. His .506 FG% gives himn roughly 16 FGs made per game, or 32 ppg. His FTAs drop from 17 down to 14. With his .613 FT% in '62, he would make roughly 9 FTs per game in '87. 32+9 = 41 ppg.

BUT, while MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480, Chamberlain shot .506 in a league that shot .426. Raise Wilt's FG% to '87 levels, and it climbs to about .570...or another 2 FGs per game...or 36+9= 45 ppg.

IMHO, Kobe's '06 season is actually the second best season in terms of pure scoring in NBA history. Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg, in a league that averaged 97 ppg and shot .454. By contrast, MJ's 37.1 ppg came in a league that averaged 110 ppg and shot .480, while Wilt's 50.4 ppg came in a league that averaged 119 ppg and shot .426.

How would Wilt's '62 season numbers have compared with Kobe's in '06? Kobe's league averaged 79 FGAs and 26 FTAs per game. So, Wilt would have taken 29 FGAs per game, and 12 FTAs per game. Without adjusting for FG%, Wilt would have made 14.5 FGs per game, and 7.5 FTs per game, or 36.5 ppg. However, he would have shot about .535 in '06, so you can add about 1 more FG made, or a total of 38.5 ppg.

Now, ShaqAttack would argue that Wilt would not have played 48.5 mpg in '06. And he is probably right. But, in a 30 team league, instead of a nine team league, he would have been playing in a much more diluted league, as well. Furthermore, how much more efficient would he have been playing 43-44 mpg, instead of 48?

And once again, per minute played, and adjusted for the levels of FGAs in their respective seasons, MJ and Kobe took more of their team's shots, than Wilt did in '62.

And BTW, while other's can argue other seasons for MJ and Kobe...IMHO, had a '67 Wilt been asked to carry the offensive load that season, he would easily have scored 40 ppg, and probably shot nearly 60%. We will never know, of course, but he was clearly in his prime in '67. And he dominated EVERY center in the league that year, in a 10 team league that had Bellamy, Reed, Lucas, Russell, Thurmond,...all in the HOF, as well as All-Star Zelmo Beatty. The league also had Dierking, Imhoff, and Counts...all in their primes, and all decent.

Why are you going by league average? Go by what the teams actually played at, otherwise you are biasing your statistics in favor of teams that play at a fast pace and penalizing teams that play at a slow pace.

ElGee's interpretation is actually much more fair than the way your doing it, the only thing I see wrong with his is it fails to account for how pace affects fg%

[jlauber]

Why are you going by league average? Go by what the teams actually played at, otherwise you are biasing your statistics in favor of teams that play at a fast pace and penalizing teams that play at a slow pace.

ElGee's interpretation is actually much more fair than the way your doing it, the only thing I see wrong with his is it fails to account for how pace affects fg%

Because if you watch footage of Chamberlain in the early to mid-60's (most of which has now been deleted at YouTube), you will see him catch-turn-and shoot. There was no wasting time dribbling the ball like MJ. He was probably also the fastest player in the league, and forced opposing teams to play at a higher pace.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Admittedly I haven't read through all of the posts, but there are few that I have read that I don't agree with.

There seems to be this unspoken psychological syndrome which wants to consider MJ great or better than almost everybody else in NBA history at every part of the game. Sorry... I don't share that view, even though he's on my short list of those who have a case at being the GOAT. Having said that, I would like to focus on MJ's and Lebron's passing during the seasons mentioned in this thread. As good as MJ was at passing I feel that there actually is a noticeable gap between Lebron and him with Lebron having the advantage.

By '90 as ShaqAttack mentions, MJ had become less ball dominant. Frankly, from my observation the Bulls' offense got better partially because of that. While this thread is basically looking at the '90 season, I think that it is fitting to mention a trend I had uncovered while working on another thread once. I noticed that from '89 to '92 the Bulls' offense improved in every way each season. Over that time the constant was MJ's assists went down and Pippen's went up. (From '91 to '92 MJ's did increase, but Pippen's also increased to a career high.) This is significant to this thread because IMO that at least implies that MJ may not have even been the best passer on his own team (even as early as '90 despite avg. more apg that Pippen). Whether people consider the book to be credible or not, Phil Jackson was quoted in The Jordan Rules as being rather critical of MJ's passing skills despite his impressive numbers at pg in '89. Now does that make MJ a poor passer in '90? No. It just means that he was good, but not elite. There is a difference.

Now some critics of Lebron tend to claim that he gets assists because he has the ball in his hands quite a bit. That's only partially true. That's like saying that a scorer scores a lot of points because he takes many shots...Duh...But Lebron has the ball in his hands a lot because passing/ facilitating is a natural part of his game. Are we forgetting that when he was drafted out of high school, the scouting reports were predicting him to be the next Magic Johnson because of his passing abilities and court vision at that size? (Now don't get me wrong. I don't feel that he is close to Magic in that area, but you get the point.)

IMO, and I don't think that its hyperbolic to say that the only players in the league in '09 who were better passers than Lebron were elite pgs (i.e. CP3, Nash, Kidd, etc.) With Lebron as the primary playmaker for the team, the '09 Cavs played at one of the slowest paces in the league (25th out of 30th), but they were 13th in ppg, and 4th in off. rating. They were also 6th in fg% and 2nd in 3pt %. The 3 pt. shot was a very important part of their game that season, and starters such as Mo Williams and Delonte West who played most of their time in the rotation with Lebron, shot what was at that point, career highs from the 3 pt. line. Even Varejao who started more than half the season had a career high fg% which was the result of many pick and rolls or pick and pops run with Lebron. What's also interesting is that Big Z shot roughly his career avg. from the field despite his game gravitating more towards the perimeter, even using the 3 point shot more.

Again in '90 MJ was a good passer, but I think that Lebron was much better at that facet of the game in '09. We are comparing a player who was good at it for his position in MJ to a player for whom passing is somewhat 2nd nature in Lebron.

As a pure scorer and off the ball player, '90 Jordan was clearly superior to Lebron, but Lebron has had more success as a point guard/point forward.

Jordan as a point guard in 1989- 30.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.8 TO, 49.8 FG%, 21.3 FGA, 88.9 FT%, 10 FTA, 13-11 record

They were 34-23 with Jordan in the other games.

Lebron as a point guard in 2010- 30.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 10.5 apg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, 3.8 TO, 49.1 FG%, 19.6 FGA, 37.1 3P%, 6.4 3PA, 75.7 FT%, 12.4 FTA, 11-0 record

And Lebron in general has pretty much been a point forward for years.

I prefer Jordan's style and his more versatile offensive game as well as what he brought defensively, but if I need a player in a ball dominant point guard type role, I'd pick Lebron.

[Poochymama]

Because if you watch footage of Chamberlain in the early to mid-60's (most of which has now been deleted at YouTube), you will see him catch-turn-and shoot. There was no wasting time dribbling the ball like MJ. He was probably also the fastest player in the league, and forced opposing teams to play at a higher pace.

I understand and agree with that, but that's exactly why you should use the pace that Wilt played at to determine his pace adjusted numbers, not the league average. As you said, Wilt " forced opposing teams to play at a higher pace".

For instance, when comparing Jordan and Kobe, you used league average. League average pace is biased in favor of Kobe because Jordan's bulls played at a very slow pace compared to league average. The speed that the rest of the league played at couldn't be more irrelevant when comparing pace between two players. If you want to be truly fair and unbiased, use the pace that each of the player's teams played at, otherwise your including a bunch of irrelevant data that is skewing your conclusion.

Kobe's Lakers averaged 91 possessions per game in the season he averaged 35ppg. Jordan's Bulls averaged 96 possessions per game in the season he averaged 37ppg. In other words, the Bulls had about 5 more possessions, or 5% more per game in which their 10 or so players could score points. Using the league average(as you did), says that Kobe's Lakers averaged 90 possessions per game and Jordan's Bulls averaged 101 possessions per game, which simply isn't true. By doing this, you are giving a giving a 6 possession, or 120% advantage in favor of Kobe when adjusting for pace.

Aside from that, there is definitely something wrong with those pace adjusted numbers. Shoot, if you take Jordan out of the equation(who is a relative outlier, statistically speaking anyway), virtually all of those players are from 2000 and later. It obviously favors players in those most recent decade too heavily, which leads me to believe a number of things.

1. The NBA has changed rules to benefit the perimeter players of today in an attempt to create the "next Jordan"
2. Simply adjusting for pace and not accounting for fg% doesn't work 100% and tends to be biased in favor of those who play at a slower pace.
3. Individual play, as opposed to team play is on the rise

Sorry, but no way in hell does Wilt's epic 50ppg season translate to 28ppg, maybe 38ppg, but not 28.

[jlauber]

I understand and agree with that, but that's exactly why you should use the pace that Wilt played at to determine his pace adjusted numbers, not the league average. As you said, Wilt " forced opposing teams to play at a higher pace".

For instance, when comparing Jordan and Kobe, you used league average. League average pace is biased in favor of Kobe because Jordan's bulls played at a very slow pace compared to league average. The speed that the rest of the league played at couldn't be more irrelevant when comparing pace between two players. If you want to be truly fair and unbiased, use the pace that each of the player's teams played at, otherwise your including a bunch of irrelevant data that is skewing your conclusion.

Kobe's Lakers averaged 91 possessions per game in the season he averaged 35ppg. Jordan's Bulls averaged 96 possessions per game in the season he averaged 37ppg. In other words, the Bulls had about 5 more possessions, or 5% more per game in which their 10 or so players could score points. Using the league average(as you did), says that Kobe's Lakers averaged 90 possessions per game and Jordan's Bulls averaged 101 possessions per game, which simply isn't true. By doing this, you are giving a giving a 6 possession, or 120% advantage in favor of Kobe when adjusting for pace.

Aside from that, there is definitely something wrong with those pace adjusted numbers. Shoot, if you take Jordan out of the equation(who is a relative outlier, statistically speaking anyway), virtually all of those players are from 2000 and later. It obviously favors players in those most recent decade too heavily, which leads me to believe a number of things.

1. The NBA has changed rules to benefit the perimeter players of today in an attempt to create the "next Jordan"
2. Simply adjusting for pace and not accounting for fg% doesn't work 100% and tends to be biased in favor of those who play at a slower pace.
3. Individual play, as opposed to team play is on the rise

Sorry, but no way in hell does Wilt's epic 50ppg season translate to 28ppg, maybe 38ppg, but not 28.

100% agreed. Also, at least IMHO, the NBA in the 80's, with 23 teams, was more diluted than the early 60's. Furthermore, a PRIME Wilt, circa 1967, and asked to score, most certainly could have scored 40 ppg...in a league that had HOF centers all over the place. Reed, Bellamy, Lucas (yes, he played center at time in his career), Thurmond, and Russell...in a ten team league. Not to mention all-star Zelmo Beatty, as well as HOFer Wayne Embry, and decent journeymen centers like Counts, Dierking, and Imhoff.

Put a PRIME Wilt in the NBA of the 80's, and against a slew of weaker pivotmen, and his numbers would have been even better.

[PHILA]

Third, the only problem with "Socks theory" is I've never seen it substantiated. It's a theory. When we look at the average height of rookie classes in the periods alleged to list height in shoes, we would see a sudden shift, and we don't. We see a steady shift.Indeed, I doubt it can be answered with any certainty due to the inconsistencies in the "official" measurements these days. Shaq we know is a legit 7'1, but Kobe (wife has apparently measured him at 6'4 3/4) was once officially listed by the NBA at 6'7.



2001 NBA.com Player File (http://web.archive.org/web/20001110091700/www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant.html)


http://i52.tinypic.com/2dqeeb.png



I don't know if it is necessarily the socks/barefoot measurements or the actual shoes they wore. Back then everyone had flat-soled canvas Chuck Taylors. Now there are a wide variety of basketball shoes to choose from. Even if they were measured in shoes back then surely the heights would be consistent with at least one less variable. Below we can see Chamberlain perhaps being measured before his 1st Sixers practice, wearing shoes.


January 20, 1965 (http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=U1456696)

Original caption: Philadelphia: Philadelphia 76er Larry Costello has to stand on a chair to help Wilt Chamberlain put on his new 76er jacket, 1/20. Chamberlain arrived from San Francisco just in time to make his first practice with he Philadelphia 76ers before playing the Warriors 1/21.


http://i55.tinypic.com/2cdbynm.png

[jlauber]

Indeed, I doubt it can be answered with any certainty due to the inconsistency. Shaq we know is a legit 7'1, but Kobe (wife has apparently measured him at 6'4 3/4) was once officially listed by the NBA at 6'7.



2001 NBA.com Player File (http://web.archive.org/web/20001110091700/www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant.html)


http://i52.tinypic.com/2dqeeb.png



I don't know if it is necessarily the socks/barefoot measurements or the actual shoes they wore. Back then everyone had flat-soled canvas Chuck Taylors. Now there are a wide variety of basketball shoes to choose from. Even if they were measured in shoes back then surely the heights would be consistent with at least one less variable. Below we can see Chamberlain perhaps being measured before his 1st Sixers practice, wearing shoes.


January 20, 1965 (http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=U1456696)

Original caption: Philadelphia: Philadelphia 76er Larry Costello has to stand on a chair to help Wilt Chamberlain put on his new 76er jacket, 1/20. Chamberlain arrived from San Francisco just in time to make his first practice with he Philadelphia 76ers before playing the Warriors 1/21.


http://i55.tinypic.com/2cdbynm.png

Since this post has gone completely off-topic, I will add a couple of comments. Before YouTube removed the video, there was footage of the Gilmore/Wilt matchup in the '72 ABA-NBA All-Star game. I actually watched that game on TV that night. And before the opening tip, I believe it was Hot Rod Hundley made the comment that Wilt not only appear much bigger than the 7-2 Gilmore, but TALLER as well (and Gilmore had an afro.) While Wilt always maintained that he was 7-1, many of those who witnessed him play against his peers, including his peers, believed him to be considerably taller. In Cherry's book I believe, a close friend of Chamberlain claimed that he was closer to 7-4. IMHO, and judging by his matchups with Thurmond, Russell, Bellamy, and even other seven-footers like Boerwinkle, Wilt was CONSIDERABLY taller than all of them. The only player that I would have given an edge, was Kareem, whom I believe was closer to 7-3. In fact, without taking the time to look up the photo, I believe someone here posted a photo with Kareem playing against the supposed 7-4 Ralph Sampson, and, at the very least, was at least as tall.

In any case, it really didn't matter much at all. Wilt's amazing ATHLETICISM was the real reason why he won 11 rebounding titles. Not only that, but a 35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and the other one with chronic arthritis, was able to block some 15 of Kareem's sky-hooks in the '72 WCF's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wes Unseld was effective against KAJ as well.


Nov 25, 1972

Unseld, who plays Kareem Abdul Jabbar as tough as any- one in the league, suffered a pulled back muscle in the romp over Buffalo here Wednesday night.



Mar 14, 1979

http://i55.tinypic.com/105qp35.png

Wes seemed pretty overmatched against Kareem in the 1971 finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcBmjtDQINA#t=8m56s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcBmjtDQINA#t=10m42s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEDSsqJrW2I#t=7m28s

Kareem- 27 ppg, 18 rpg, 2.8 apg, 60.5 FG%, 42 mpg
Unseld- 15 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 4.5 apg, 36.5 FG%, 46 mpg

On a side note, flawless passing and decision making by Oscar in that game.

[PHILA]

Yes there wasn't much he could do with KAJ on the move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkYosA1VNDw

[feyki]

Probably , Lebron has only one year debatable against 88-93 Jordan . And that's 2009 . Lebron's 2009 year also best peak since Early 00's Duncan and Shaq .



Lebron has playmaking,rebounding , Jordan has defending . It's so close but Lebron probably better on offence . But Jordan's defence has more margin than Lebron's offence .

I choose 90 Jordan .

[FKAri]

Probably , Lebron has only one year debatable against 88-93 Jordan . And that's 2009 . Lebron's 2009 year also best peak since Early 00's Duncan and Shaq .



Lebron has playmaking,rebounding , Jordan has defending . It's so close but Lebron probably better on offence . But Jordan's defence has more margin than Lebron's offence .

I choose 90 Jordan .

I'd say Lebron has a slight defensive advantage due to his versatility and help D while MJ actually has a sizable advantage in offense exclusively from his far superior scoring. Jordan fairly easily.

[3ball]

I'd say Lebron has a slight defensive advantage due to his versatility and help D while MJ actually has a sizable advantage in offense exclusively from his far superior scoring. Jordan fairly easily.
MJ guards the 1-3 at an elite level - that's 3 positions - Lebron can't say that.

[3ball]

.
..........Percentage of points scored while player was on floor



......................RS......RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/)..... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7


CONCLUSIONS:

1) As you can see, Jordan scored the highest percentage of his team's points while he was on the floor, by far - he scored literally 45-50% of his team's 4th quarter points in the playoffs and Finals.. This puts Curry and Lebron to shame.

2) Lebron and Curry's proportion of their team's points often DECLINED in the 4th quarter, while Jordan's always increased, and significantly.


I know these stats are for MJ's 1997 and 1998 season - but if he was shouldering this big a load at 34 and 35 years old, then his load must've been insane in 1990, when he was a 1-man team.
.

[PsychoBe]

MJ guards the 1-3 at an elite level - that's 3 positions - Lebron can't say that.

mj was dpoy during a time when the league had the greatest defensive big-men in the history of the game.

how is this even a debate? :facepalm

[3ball]

1988-1993 MJ was perhaps the best basketball player of all time.



........................................6-Year Primes


Playoffs Per Game:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more, with more assists, offensive rebounds, and steals... Lebron's only advantage is defensive rebounds.

And of course, he scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals (between 45-50%... compared to only 14-35% for Lebron... see post above for complete stats).

[Smoke117]

........................................6-Year Primes


Playoffs Per Game:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more, with more assists, offensive rebounds, and steals... Lebron's only advantage is defensive rebounds.

And of course, he scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals (between 45-50%... compared to only 14-35% for Lebron... see post above for complete stats).

1-9

[3ball]

1-9
1-9 with no all-stars.

Otoh, Zydrunas Illgauskas was named an all-star in 2003 and 2005.. So Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 despite having an All-Star on his team.. And when he won his first playoff game in 2006, he did so with the help of a 2-time All-Star.

Otoh, MJ never played with an all-star, or anything NEAR that during his early playoff career... But once he got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6..

Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs twice in Cleveland despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami (in a historically weak conference, where he beat FAR less 50 win teams)..

[Smoke117]

1-9 with no all-stars.

Otoh, Zydrunas Illgauskas was named an all-star in 2003 and 2005.. So Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 despite having an All-Star on his team.. And when he won his first playoff game in 2006, he did so with the help of a 2-time All-Star.

Otoh, MJ never played with an all-star, or anything NEAR that during his early playoff career... But once he got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6..

Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs twice in Cleveland despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami..

Pippen is garbage that Mj carried remember? He's the weakest all star ever you dimwit.

[3ball]

Pippen is garbage that Mj carried remember? He's the weakest all star ever you dimwit.
MJ went 1-9 with no all-stars, while Lebron missed the playoffs twice despite having an all-star, who was one of the best bigs in his conference.

But once MJ got his all-star (only 1), he went 6/6..

Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs twice in Cleveland despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami..

[Smoke117]

MJ went 1-9 with no all-stars, while Lebron missed the playoffs twice despite having an all-star, who was one of the best bigs in his conference.

But once MJ got his all-star (only 1), he went 6/6..

Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs twice in Cleveland despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami..

I don't give a shit about Lebron...take this nonsense elsewhere.

1-9. 2/6. I'm happy with either.

[Jameerthefear]

1-9

[3ball]

I don't give a shit about Lebron...take this nonsense elsewhere.

1-9. 2/6. I'm happy with either.
1-9 with no all-stars > missing the playoffs twice, WITH an all-star.

also,

6/6 > 2/6


take this L

[dubeta]

1-9


:lebronamazed:

[3ball]

actually, we can statistically prove that MJ was the far better player in 1989-1990

[3ball]

:lebronamazed:
1-9 with no all-stars > missing the playoffs twice, WITH an all-star.

also,

6/6 > 2/6


take this L

[3ball]

People forget that Pippen's epic choke in Game 7 of ECF (1-10, 2 points) cost the Bulls the 1990 championship.

The Bulls would've beaten the Blazers in Finals, based on the fact that the Pistons only needed 6 games to beat Blazers, but needed 7 grueling games (and Pippen choke) to beat Bulls.

[tmacattack33]

Not that terribly close. Jordan played against a lot better teams in every round. Lebron got his 35 points a game in the playoffs against a pistons team that didn't care at all, an extremely depleted 46 win Hawks team, and against Orlando who couldn't defend the perimeter at all.
Not a Knock on Lebron, but this isn't really a close comparison. He wasn't as good of a scorer, defender, or passer. The only thing he was better at was rebounding.

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

4 posts in a row? Holy shit

[tmacattack33]

People forget that Pippen's epic choke in Game 7 of ECF (1-10, 2 points) cost the Bulls the 1990 championship.

The Bulls would've beaten the Blazers in Finals, based on the fact that the Pistons only needed 6 games to beat Blazers, but needed 7 grueling games (and Pippen choke) to beat Bulls.

Okay...and Mo Williams (the guy that Cleveland gave to Lebron to be his Pippen...believe it or not) basically played like that in every game in the playoffs...with much worse defense, playmaking, and rebounding.

[Smoke117]

1-9 with no all-stars > missing the playoffs twice, WITH an all-star.

also,

6/6 > 2/6


take this L


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2906986/kg-2000-dunk-contest-reaction-o.gif

In what world is sucking your own dick and patting yourself on the back praiseworthy?

[3ball]

.
Here's clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 Cavs:


We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.. Lebron won 19 more games with equal or lesser stats, which can only happen due to worse competition and/or better supporting cast.

If you think that all 19 wins was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the real reason for the 19 more wins was that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, which was a stark contrast from MJ's young, lower-producing cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" he faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

[Jameerthefear]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2906986/kg-2000-dunk-contest-reaction-o.gif
1-9

[Jameerthefear]

1-9
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2906986/kg-2000-dunk-contest-reaction-o.gif

[3ball]

4 posts in a row? Holy shit



What did you think about this one


........................................6-Year Primes


Playoffs Per Game:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more, with more assists, offensive rebounds, and steals... Lebron's only advantage is defensive rebounds.

And of course, he scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points, especially in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals (literally 50% of his team's points... compared to only 14-38% for Lebron... see previous post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11986659&postcount=166) for complete stats).

[Smoke117]

What did you think about this one


........................................6-Year Primes


Playoffs Per Game:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more, with more assists, offensive rebounds, and steals... Lebron's only advantage is defensive rebounds.

And of course, he scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals (literally 50% of his team's points... compared to only 14-38% for Lebron... see previous post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11986659&postcount=166) for complete stats).

You realize everyone except maybe some of these idiot teenagers of this era already think Jordan is greater than Lebron? What the **** is the point of pushing an agenda that everyone ALREADY AGREES WITH YOU ON?
http://i.imgur.com/R8mplVt.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Looks like this was a decent thread started by the GOAT poster, then it was 2015, and 3ball came.. :(

as for thread, take your pick, 2 of the best basketball players ever (those versions).

[3ball]

Looks like this was a decent thread started by the GOAT poster, then it was 2015, and 3ball came.. :(

as for thread, take your pick, 2 of the best basketball players ever (those versions).
There is no basis for Lebron over Jordan.

I can make a million arguments for Jordan over Lebron... Whereas there isn't a single argument for Lebron over MJ.

[fpliii]

https://media.giphy.com/media/BBvtDpkIHjXsQ/giphy.gif

[feyki]

I'd say Lebron has a slight defensive advantage due to his versatility and help D while MJ actually has a sizable advantage in offense exclusively from his far superior scoring. Jordan fairly easily.

Jordan better shot blocker and better on ball defender than Lebron . Lebron isn't versatile than Jordan on defence .

Beside of 2009 , yes ; Jordan better on offence than Lebron in his prime (88-93) . But 2009 Lebron has 47 points , 12 reb , 11 ast , %62 TS on 100 poss . And Lebron averaged 50-12-12 with %59 TS on 100 poss against first defence of the league .

[3ball]

Jordan better shot blocker and better on ball defender than Lebron . Lebron isn't versatile than Jordan on defence .

Beside of 2009 , yes ; Jordan better on offence than Lebron in his prime (88-93) . But 2009 Lebron has 47 points , 12 reb , 11 ast , %62 TS on 100 poss . And Lebron averaged 50-12-12 with %59 TS on 100 poss against first defence of the league .
Everyone has a career high..

MJ does too.. And he has goat stats in series he WON, in addition goat stats in his stat-padding losses (like Lebron's).

Even though MJ had many superior individual series, it's always better to look at larger samples, like MJ's 1988-1993 prime vs. Lebron's 2009-2014 prime (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11986670&postcount=168).

Also, it's a statistical fact that while he was on the floor, MJ scored 45-50% of his team's 4th quarter points in the 1997 & 1998 playoffs and Finals - Lebron's 4th quarter load is nowhere near, and has been as low as 14% (2011 Finals) - see the full stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11986659&postcount=166).

[Wade's Rings]

Looks like this was a decent thread started by the GOAT poster, then it was 2015, and 3ball came.. :(

as for thread, take your pick, 2 of the best basketball players ever (those versions).

Micku & Bizil are the best posters IMO

[feyki]

3ball ;

Yes , we known those . Jordan had better prime than Lebron's . That isn't secret , you should keep calm .

[ArbitraryWater]

Micku & Bizil are the best posters IMO

micku definitely another great poster from these older ones.. bizil is cool, but every post of his is pretty much the same he wrote the last time, but I trust his judgement. Shaq Attack's understanding and knowledge is pretty rare imo. He, micku, fatal when he still posted, Samurai, Loki, I seen hippos, EricForman, AirJordan23, realist, Indian guy, NugzHeat, dmavs.. of course the 'old old' guys like PHILA, jlip etc are there too just for all they know.

[Wade's Rings]

micku definitely another great poster from these older ones.. bizil is cool, but every post of his is pretty much the same he wrote the last time, but I trust his judgement. Shaq Attack's understanding and knowledge is pretty rare imo. He, micku, fatal when he still posted, Samurai, Loki, I seen hippos, EricForman, AirJordan23, realist, Indian guy, NugzHeat, dmavs.. of course the 'old old' guys like PHILA, jlip etc are there too just for all they know.

Wasn't Fatal a troll? I remember he hated Jordan.

[dubeta]

Wasn't Fatal a troll? I remember he hated Jordan.


You weren't around back then, your account was activated this year, so how would you know?







Unless....... :wtf:

[ArbitraryWater]

Wasn't Fatal a troll? I remember he hated Jordan.

def. didnt like MJ but he was far from a troll and knew alot. Has a great youtube channel (of the same name I think) too.

[mehyaM24]

shaqisgoat, pointguard when he's not talking about rose, dmavs, fatal9, kuniva, shaqattack, dondadda when he's not on a racial tirade, etc. are guys i can/could say that i learn from when reading their posts. for the most part all critical thinkers.


You weren't around back then, your account was activated this year, so how would you know?







Unless....... :wtf:

:oldlol:

[GIF REACTION]

2009 Lebron because you can give him any team and he'll make them 60+ win

Better defender

Better all round player

[Wade's Rings]

def. didnt like MJ but he was far from a troll and knew alot. Has a great youtube channel (of the same name I think) too.

Ahh ok. I agree with those other posters. Great posters and bring great info and insight.


shaqisgoat, pointguard when he's not talking about rose, dmavs, fatal9, kuniva, shaqattack, dondadda when he's not on a racial tirade, etc. are guys i can/could say that i learn from when reading their posts. for the most part all critical thinkers.

Forgot ShaqisGOAT, excellent poster.

[Sarcastic]

1990 Jordan is the absolute pinnacle of basketball. Anyone that was fortunate enough to have seen him play should consider themselves lucky. It's equivalent to witnessing Beethoven compose Ode to Joy, or Shakespeare write Romeo and Juliet.

[ArbitraryWater]

1990 Jordan is the absolute pinnacle of basketball. Anyone that was fortunate enough to have seen him play should consider themselves lucky. It's equivalent to witnessing Beethoven compose Ode to Joy, or Shakespeare write Romeo and Juliet.

true.. same goes for 2009/2010 Bron though.. so fortunate dood :bowdown:

[mehyaM24]

1990 Jordan is the absolute pinnacle of basketball. Anyone that was fortunate enough to have seen him play should consider themselves lucky. It's equivalent to witnessing Beethoven compose Ode to Joy, or Shakespeare write Romeo and Juliet.

1991-1993 jordan was better.

bigger, stronger and had more stamina against the physical, daunting defenses of the early 90s.

arbitrary- 2009 & 2010 lebron are great, but 2013 & 2014 lebron was him at his absolute peak.. if we're talking about everything coming together of course. his efficiency was mind boggling.

[Sarcastic]

1991-1993 jordan was better.

bigger, stronger and had more stamina against the physical, daunting defenses of the early 90s.

arbitrary- 2009 & 2010 lebron are great, but 2013 & 2014 lebron was him at his absolute peak.. if we're talking about everything coming together of course. his efficiency was mind boggling.

1990 Jordan > anything after. I watched him his whole career. He didn't win because his team wasn't ready, but from a personal standpoint he was never better than his 1990 season. He still had his peak athleticism, and he could hit from outside. By 91 he had lost a bit of the athleticism, though his shot was money.

[mehyaM24]

1990 Jordan > anything after. I watched him his whole career. He didn't win because his team wasn't ready, but from a personal standpoint he was never better than his 1990 season. He still had his peak athleticism, and he could hit from outside. By 91 he had lost a bit of the athleticism, though his shot was money.

nah.. jordan was better in 1991 because he was stronger, bigger & had more stamina.

look at the differences in body between 1990 & 1991 - thank tim grover for that. honestly the only reason this is a discussion is because jordan shot more threes in 1990, and he was reasonably efficient doing so.

1991-1992 jordan was peak skills, peak athleticism and peak strength aka the best combo of jordan we ever saw.

[3ball]

1991-1993 jordan was better.


I normally agree with Sarcastic.. But I agree with you here.

I think 1991-1993 Jordan was better too.. He was much stronger and guys like Rodman were now a JOKE to him, whereas he had to work to drop 32 ppg on Rodman in 1989 and 1990..

If you put 1991 Jordan in the 1989 and 1990 playoffs, I think it's a different story - they definitely win the championship in 1990.





2013 & 2014 lebron was him at his absolute peak.


:wtf: :biggums: :biggums: :whatever: :kobe: :milton


If 2013 and 2014 were Lebron's absolute peak, then why do you bother to compare him to Jordan AT ALL????


Lebron 2013 & 2014 Playoffs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2013-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 26.6 ppg.. 7.8 rpg.. 5.7 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 52.3 fg


^^^^ Those would be BY FAR the worst stats of MJ's playoff career... Show me a season where MJ's stats were worse than that.... Here's all his playoff stats for you to choose a season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_per_game

[Sarcastic]

nah.. jordan was better in 1991 because he was stronger, bigger & had more stamina.

look at the differences in his body between 1990 & 1991 - thank tim grover for that. honestly the only reason this is a discussion is because jordan shot more threes in 1990, and he was reasonably efficient doing so.

1991-1992 jordan was peak skills, peak athleticism and peak strength aka the best combo of jordan we ever saw.

Skill wise he was probably better in 1991. Athletically he was better in 1990. It's nitpicking tbh.

1990 Jordan, there was not a person on earth that could stop him from attacking the rim. The only reason he was stopped was the Pistons employed the Jordan Rules. It didn't work in 1991 because his teammates got better.

[mehyaM24]

raw stats aren't everything 3ball.

jordan averaged his best stats in 1987 & 1988.. (at least he did in the regular-season)

oh well. glad that you and i agree on something. :cheers:

[3ball]

raw stats aren't everything 3ball.


What else are you referring to then??.. Needing Ray Allen to save him in 2013 Finals or getting beaten worse than anyone ever has in 2014 Finals?

So what else are you talking about specifically?

You have no case - again, you said Lebron's 2013 and 2014 were his absolute peak, but his stats in 2013 and 2014 playoffs would be the worst of MJ's career by far:

Lebron 2013 & 2014 Playoffs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2013-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 26.6 ppg.. 7.8 rpg.. 5.7 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 52.3 fg


^^^^ Show me a season where MJ's stats were worse than that.... Here's all his playoff stats for you to choose a season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_per_game
.

[3ball]

.
..........Percentage of points scored while player was on floor



......................RS......RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/)..... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7


CONCLUSIONS:

1) As you can see, Jordan scored the highest percentage of his team's points while he was on the floor, by far - he scored literally 45-50% of his team's 4th quarter points in the playoffs and Finals.. This puts Curry and Lebron to shame.

2) Lebron and Curry's proportion of their team's points often DECLINED in the 4th quarter, while Jordan's always increased, and significantly.


I know these stats are for MJ's 1997 and 1998 season - but if he was shouldering this big a load at 34 and 35 years old, then his load must've been insane in 1990, when he was a 1-man team.

[3ball]

........................................6-Year Primes


Playoffs Per Game:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game): 34.6 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game): 28.1 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.1 dreb.. 6.1 apg.. 1.8 stl.. 0.9 bpg.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 1988-1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1988-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 8.5 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.5 fg.. 58.3 ts.. 120 ORtg
LEBRON 2009-2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2014-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 37.1 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.4 fg.. 59.9 ts.. 118 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more, with more assists, offensive rebounds, and steals... Lebron's only advantage is defensive rebounds.

And of course, he scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points, especially in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals (literally 50% of his team's points... compared to only 14-38% for Lebron... see previous post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11986659&postcount=166) for complete stats).




Yes 3ball... :rolleyes:... we know MJ had the better prime


You think it was just MJ's prime that was better?... MJ had the better rookie year, the better twilight (mid-30's three-peat), and better career stats:


Career Stats in Playoffs (per 100 possessions)

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg


Show me a time where a #1 option scores 20% more (5-6 more ppg) on better efficiency and WASN'T considered a far better player?... This is only possible in the eyes of delusional Lebron fans.

MJ also had more offensive rebounds, steals, equal assist/turnovers, and a FAR greater scoring load in the 4th quarter (see previous post above).. The stats aren't close.

[Lebron23]

Unless Lebron delivers extraordinary performance and wins against elite defensive teams, his legacy wont be much different now and after he finishes his career. And once again no, Lebron isnt close to prime MJ and Shaq, to say LBJ is "as good as" is a prime example of homerism or ignorance.

This posts didn't age very well. LeBron is going for his 5th championship next year