Cbssports: Deron Williams has informed cbs's Berger that he wants to join the Knicks

[Rekindled]

http://mobile.twitter.com/CBSSportsNBA


CBSSportsNBA For more on @KBerg_CBS ' report of Deron Williams interest in the New York Knicks in 2012, check back tonight on CBSSports.com.
1 minute ago

CBSSportsNBA @KBerg_CBS reports tonight that James Dolan has undercut Donnie Walsh's negotiations for Anthony. "It's amateur hour" one source said.
5 minutes ago

CBSSportsNBA @KBerg_CBS reports tonight that Deron Williams has informed associates he looks to join Amar'e in New York in 2012.

[iDunk]

First I was like .. :blah

Then I was like .. wait :eek:

And finally I was like .. :bowdown: :bowdown: :applause:

[chazzy]

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1233445870_ae19b02.gif

[Rekindled]

personally, im really dont want to go through another year of drama lol. if dwill wants to come, force a trade this year by the deadline.

[iDunk]

http://i53.tinypic.com/hvp14z.jpg

[AMISTILLILL]

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/273/11641978.jpg

[wlee43]

so what he sucks

[bluechox2]

personally, im really dont want to go through another year of drama lol. if dwill wants to come, force a trade this year by the deadline.
:roll: :roll:

[bluechox2]

maybe deron and cp3 will take paycuts to play for the knicks
its all talk

[Gundress]

See what I said....


Young generation/gimmicks killed NBA, is not good for basketball.

[iDunk]

maybe deron and cp3 will take paycuts to play for the knicks
its all talk
Throw in Howard too.

PG: Paul
SG: Williams
SF: Carmelo
PF: Stoudemire
C: Dwight Howard

Big 5 anyone?

WE DA BESSTESS

[bluechox2]

it doesnt mean he will actually come, just a general question, do you like the knicks...oh yea, i like what they are doing..

twitter: deron wants to go to the knicks in 2012

[wlee43]

next year it's going to be

PG: Williams
SG: Fields
SF: Anthony
PF: Stoudemire
C: Camby

[bluechox2]

next year it's going to be

PG: Williams
SG: Fields
SF: Anthony
PF: Stoudemire
C: Camby
:oldlol:

[dunksby]

After getting raped by every PG in the west this year he is trying to let his ass take a break.

[HB40TheNextStar]

I'd rather take a healthy Paul.

[chazzy]

I'd rather take a healthy Paul.
I'd take Deron because I feel like he has more effective years left in the league. CP3 got his meniscus removed and already doesn't look as explosive, though he's still effective.

[Darius]

Come to LA Deron and play with Amare x 2, Blake Griffin.

[Rekindled]

i hope he comes here and get dantoni to resign, that would be nice

[c3z4r]

After getting raped by every PG in the west this year he is trying to let his ass take a break.

what pg in the west raped him?

[bagelred]

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/scottish-lad/tumblr_lgh7tx9Bwz1qcywh4.gif

[Blue&Orange]

Breaking news: Blake Griffin informed associates that next time he jumps over a car he wants to land in NY.

[Scoooter]

what pg in the west raped him?
Westbrook, Nash twice. He hasn't had a good month.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

why don't we just cut the league down to 15 teams, so all these guys can team up. :facepalm

[RoseCity07]

Honestly, I'm getting sick of the sellouts. Don't try to go to big markets just because you want more attention. Although I think the NBA would like us to blame the player. I think maybe a guy like Williams accepts the fact he can only win if he goes to Boston, LA, or New York.

The NBA is an opera. It's the WWE. The NBA probably will never work on a way for small market teams to keep stars. There is no money in it.

I'm actually glad to hear the NBA loses money. It just shows me they are losing the real fans of the game.

[Rekindled]

why don't we just cut the league down to 15 teams, so all these guys can team up. :facepalm

they should

[Sky2k8336]

I hope this isn't going to develop into a Deron-Drama for the next year and a half.

[ILLsmak]

Westbrook, Nash twice. He hasn't had a good month.

to be fair, this has been a really bad month for Deron and the Jazz in general. Look at all that happened.

-smak

[c3z4r]

Westbrook, Nash twice. He hasn't had a good month.

nash yeah, i'll give you that but he's been averaging 20, 12 and 5 against okc this season while westbrook is averaging 25, 7 and 3 against utah, so it's not exactly what i would call rape.

[chips93]

See what I said....


Young generation/gimmicks killed NBA, is not good for basketball.


players have become bigger than their teams, and their are using that power, not hard to understand sloan's frustration that led to his resigning


this cba is coming just in time, something has to change, this is just getting stupid, deron/dwight/cp3 all have almost two years left on their deals, and they are already posturing for free agency

[InspiredLebowski]

Knicks can eat a dick.

[DeronMillsap]

Westbrook, Nash twice. He hasn't had a good month.
Don't forget Rose during Sloan's last game as HC.

He's been dealing with a wrist injury since January though, maybe that's why he's been playing poorly.

[RedBlackAttack]

The AAU-ification of the NBA continues. Awful.

[Rekindled]

Knicks can eat a dick.

pretty sure the knicks havent done anything, it's dwil who said it.

[KenneBell]

The East would be overloaded if he and Melo went East.

If I were a player, I'd want to stay in the West as the major players (Dallas, LA, SA) are all led by superstars that are 30+. They'll be gone in a relatively short time.

[Showtime]

*waits to see what the deron homers say now

[chazzy]

I don't blame Deron for wanting to get out of Utah - his reputation is the guy that ran out Jerry Sloan right now

[InspiredLebowski]

pretty sure the knicks havent done anything, it's dwil who said it.Sure, still just isn't good for the league. It's going to wind up 4 super teams and then everyone else goes for 3rd place for the next few decades. And yes, I'm jealous.

[Bano114]

Knicks can eat a dick.

They would, but Eddy Curry usually gets to the food first.:rolleyes:

[Batz]

"Hey Melo! We wanted Deron anyways!"

[Rekindled]

Sure, still just isn't good for the league. It's going to wind up 4 super teams and then everyone else goes for 3rd place for the next few decades. And yes, I'm jealous.

isnt that what it was in the 80s, and people say 80s is the golden era

[chips93]

I don't blame Deron for wanting to get out of Utah - his reputation is the guy that ran out Jerry Sloan right now



he's not going to improve his reputation by leaving utah then

if he does then he will have f*cked them by forcing slaon to leave, then again by leaving himself

[RedBlackAttack]

Sure, still just isn't good for the league. It's going to wind up 4 super teams and then everyone else goes for 3rd place for the next few decades. And yes, I'm jealous.
It's terrible for the league. We need a hard cap and we need it now.

[InspiredLebowski]

isnt that what it was in the 80s, and people say 80s is the golden eraI know the argument, it's always been that way and all that. But it never seemed like this where certain franchises don't have a chance before the season starts and it feels like they never will.

[A.R.T]

all of this started with the creation of team diva :facepalm

'the decision': the beginning of the end for the nba

[RedBlackAttack]

isnt that what it was in the 80s, and people say 80s is the golden era
Not really... Great teams in the 80s were built through the draft, not through free agency. There isn't much you can do when great franchises are great in drafts and build powerhouse teams. It is different when all of the best players in the NBA -- in their primes -- congregate on the same handful of teams.

Do we really want to use the MLB model of building a league? That is what has helped kill the popularity of baseball.

[ILLsmak]

I don't blame Deron for wanting to get out of Utah - his reputation is the guy that ran out Jerry Sloan right now

This is exactly it... lol. It's a horrible cycle.

Even if Deron didn't do anything, he has to get out of there because people are thinking he did. People are talking like Deron is some huge ego. They say since he got back from the USA thing he's been different... heh. I dunno, though. I never saw it. Deron has always been a quiet guy to me. I think he's pretty much a competitor, but I think he respects authority. He never had any issues in college or up until recently.

Let's face it, the Jazz are bad. Everyone is tired of losing. Sloan has his place in history, but Deron doesn't. I'm not gonna say that Deron is a once in a lifetime person like Sloan is, but Deron is one of the top players of his generation... and he's going to be forgotten if he wastes away in Utah. As a PG, you can't be on a bad team because you either lose and 'play the right way' and let your teammates fail or try to score some, too, and be labeled selfish.

BTW, he and Paul could totally be in the same backcourt... it'd be ugly for the opposition.

Edit:


he's not going to improve his reputation by leaving utah then

if he does then he will have f*cked them by forcing slaon to leave, then again by leaving himself


^ Oh well, when people blame you for something that is out of your control and make you a scapegoat, you no longer have to worry about what they think.

-Smak

[Bano114]

I know the argument, it's always been that way and all that. But it never seemed like this where certain franchises don't have a chance before the season starts and it feels like they never will.

I dont think you know what it was like to be a Knick fan between 06 to this season.

Well actually 06 to this season is unfair and I see what you are saying because at least in 08 with Walsh coming along with his salary cap plan we did have some hope.

06-08 was a period of no hope though.:oldlol:

[chips93]

all of this started with the creation of team diva :facepalm

'the decision': the beginning of the end for the nba


at least lebron played out his contract and never asked for a trade during a contract

[RedBlackAttack]

This is exactly it... lol. It's a horrible cycle.

Even if Deron didn't do anything, he has to get out of there because people are thinking he did. People are talking like Deron is some huge ego. They say since he got back from the USA thing he's been different... heh. I dunno, though. I never saw it. Deron has always been a quiet guy to me. I think he's pretty much a competitor, but I think he respects authority. He never had any issues in college or up until recently.

Let's face it, the Jazz are bad. Everyone is tired of losing. Sloan has his place in history, but Deron doesn't. I'm not gonna say that Deron is a once in a lifetime person like Sloan is, but Deron is one of the top players of his generation... and he's going to be forgotten if he wastes away in Utah. As a PG, you can't be on a bad team because you either lose and 'play the right way' and let your teammates fail or try to score some, too, and be labeled selfish.

BTW, he and Paul could totally be in the same backcourt... it'd be ugly for the opposition.

-Smak

The idea that every good/great player in the league is entitled to play on a great team is what is going to kill this league. Does Williams share no responsibility in whether or not Utah is an elite team? What happened to guys earning their stripes through lifting their franchise to the next level instead of fleeing at the first sign of trouble and trying to find the easiest possible path?

[InspiredLebowski]

I dont think you know what it was like to be a Knick fan between 06 to this season.

Well actually 06 to this season is unfair and I see what you are saying because at least in 08 with Walsh coming along with his salary cap fan we did have some hope.

06-08 was a period of no hope though.:oldlol:I'm aware how bad the Knicks have sucked. I'm a Pacers fan I know suckitude. They sucked because they spent a billion dollars on idiots though, not because they just couldn't afford to sign guys to those contracts or aren't a huge city or a vacation spot. That's what it is now and it blows.

[Rekindled]

I know the argument, it's always been that way and all that. But it never seemed like this where certain franchises don't have a chance before the season starts and it feels like they never will.

what's your point

do you think the detroit lions or cleveland browns fans feel like they have a shot at championship before the season starts? hell no

do you think Pittsburgh Pirates Fans or Washington Nationals fans feeling like they have a chance at making the playoffs? hell no

[Kingwillball]

With him saying that could that be a clue he knows Melo will be a Member of the Knicks by than ???

[RedBlackAttack]

I dont think you know what it was like to be a Knick fan between 06 to this season.

Well actually 06 to this season is unfair and I see what you are saying because at least in 08 with Walsh coming along with his salary cap plan we did have some hope.

06-08 was a period of no hope though.:oldlol:
Give me a break, man. The Knicks should have to build their roster just like every other franchise in the league, not have all of the best players handed to them.

[Rekindled]

I'm aware how bad the Knicks have sucked. I'm a Pacers fan I know suckitude. They sucked because they spent a billion dollars on idiots though, not because they just couldn't afford to sign guys to those contracts or aren't a huge city or a vacation spot. That's what it is now and it blows.

pretty sure the pacers would have won the championship in 05 if they didnt start punching people at the palace

[knickscity]

With him saying that could that be a clue he knows Melo will be a Member of the Knicks by than ???

Nope, just players using the Knicks for posturing as usual.

[ginobli2311]

Not really... Great teams in the 80s were built through the draft, not through free agency. There isn't much you can do when great franchises are great in drafts and build powerhouse teams. It is different when all of the best players in the NBA -- in their primes -- congregate on the same handful of teams.

Do we really want to use the MLB model of building a league? That is what has helped kill the popularity of baseball.

yea. its really tough now though. we are so hard on players that don't win titles.

so how again is deron or cp3 supposed to win a title in their current situation?

how was lebron supposed to win in cleveland?

kg in minny?

these guys probably get sick of hearing fans like us and talking morons on espn call these guys out for not winning. and they sit back and say "well shit, if i had wade/bosh or gasol/odom/bynum or pierce/allen....etc....i could win a title as well"

so its just a different world now. these players care a lot about money, but they care a lot about rep and fame as well. and they know that winning is the only way to build that rep and fame to a level like jordan or bird or magic or kobe or shaq or duncan.

so i don't blame these guys at all for wanting to come together and win.

i still have not seen an unfair team formed yet at all. so until i see a team that is just so stacked its a complete joke, i'm all for this.

[RedBlackAttack]

what's your point

do you think the detroit lions or cleveland browns fans feel like they have a shot at championship before the season starts? hell no

do you think Pittsburgh Pirates Fans or Washington Nationals fans feeling like they have a chance at making the playoffs? hell no
Actually, the NFL has seen franchises completely turn the tables from one season to the next. The Browns won 10 games in '07 to the utter and complete shock of the entire league.

The MLB comparison is an appropriate one, because that is the uneven playing field that the NBA is headed towards if this nonsense continues.

[RedBlackAttack]

yea. its really tough now though. we are so hard on players that don't win titles.

so how again is deron or cp3 supposed to win a title in their current situation?

how was lebron supposed to win in cleveland?

kg in minny?
Be great?

[ginobli2311]

Be great?

so you honestly think that there is a player in the league that could lead the hornets/cavs/jazz to a title? which player is capable of this?

[chazzy]

The idea that every good/great player in the league is entitled to play on a great team is what is going to kill this league. Does Williams share no responsibility in whether or not Utah is an elite team? What happened to guys earning their stripes through lifting their franchise to the next level instead of fleeing at the first sign of trouble and trying to find the easiest possible path?
It's becoming a bad domino effect. All these stars on non-contending teams see everyone else team up and think "why should I waste my talent on this good but not great team?" This makes the league more top heavy than it is and complete crap from the middle-bottom. Ever since the Miami trio formed, there's been nonstop chatter of guys like CP3, Melo, Deron, Dwight leaving their teams to join up somewhere else. And it's getting pretty damn annoying, regardless if some of the rumors would benefit my already stacked favorite team.

[ginobli2311]

Be great?

you can say what you want about lebron last year. but lebron was GREAT in 09 both in the regular season and playoffs.

and it wasn't enough to even force a game 7 in the conference finals.

i know how you feel, but its just so unrealistic to do what you are talking about.

[chips93]

the new cba cant come soon enough, and if we have to give up a portion of the season to fix things it will be worth it

[NuggetsFan]

Pretty shitty teams like the Heat\Knicks could potentially leave like 4 teams without a franchise player and gain 3 each for themselves. Players choice tho, not doing anything wrong. Probably smart on there part. Sucks for the fans tho.

[ginobli2311]

It's becoming a bad domino effect. All these stars on non-contending teams see everyone else team up and think "why should I waste my talent on this good but not great team?" This makes the league more top heavy than it is and complete crap from the middle-bottom. Ever since the Miami trio formed, there's been nonstop chatter of guys like CP3, Melo, Deron, Dwight leaving their teams to join up somewhere else. And it's getting pretty damn annoying, regardless if some of the rumors would benefit my already stacked favorite team.

again though. what started it? the lakers and celtics. its not these players fault that they get drafted on teams with inept front offices that aren't half as committed to winning.

they get sick of hearing about how they can't win a title and get treated as second class citizens until they do.

so if the lakers can have kobe/gasol/odom/bynum and a deep team with the best coach ever. and the celtics can have kg/pierce/allen/rondo/perk and a deep team with a great coach....

why can't other players enjoy the same benefits. players have no power for most of their careers. i have no problem with them using the power when they have it to take control of their future.

[chips93]

again though. what started it? the lakers and celtics. its not these players fault that they get drafted on teams with inept front offices that aren't half as committed to winning.

they get sick of hearing about how they can't win a title and get treated as second class citizens until they do.

so if the lakers can have kobe/gasol/odom/bynum and a deep team with the best coach ever. and the celtics can have kg/pierce/allen/rondo/perk and a deep team with a great coach....

why can't other players enjoy the same benefits. players have no power for most of their careers. i have no problem with them using the power when they have it to take control of their future.


this

except bold; this posturing and these power struggles this long before their contract expires, deron signed a contract to play for utah until 2010, he should honor that and not be positioning himself for 18 months time

[RedBlackAttack]

so you honestly think that there is a player in the league that could lead the hornets/cavs/jazz to a title? which player is capable of this?
First of all, KG was in an entirely different situation than these current guys, so let's toss him out of the equation. He did what he could in Minnesota and only left when it was clear that he was on the downside of his career.

The revisionist history about the Cavs is somewhat fascinating. They went six games with a great Celtics team last year and won 60+ games. This idea that they were a lost cause as a franchise is pure ridiculousness. James played at half-speed against Boston and they still gave them a better fight than anyone not named the Lakers... They still led the series 2-1 and seemed in control.

No, the Cavs were not a lost cause. Yes, James could have (and probably would have) eventually won there... He would have had to earn it, though... And it may have been more difficult than his current situation. That doesn't mean that it was a bailout situation.

The Jazz are a young team with some nice pieces. Williams is a young, good player. There is still plenty of time and room to earn a title the old fashioned way, but these kids are all about instant gratification and not caring how it is accomplished.

Same with the Hornets. Paul is playing alongside one of the better PFs in the league... An all-star caliber player. A couple of moves or a couple of good drafts and they are right there.

This sh!t is disgusting and will lead to my (and a lot of fans) completely giving up on the league.

[A.R.T]

you can say what you want about lebron last year. but lebron was GREAT in 09 both in the regular season and playoffs.

and it wasn't enough to even force a game 7 in the conference finals.

i know how you feel, but its just so unrealistic to do what you are talking about.

and in almost every game they lost, lebron played awful. if he played great, his team wins those games and moves on to the finals. same thing with the celtics series in 08. same thing with the spurs series in 07.

it's funny, even the fans of these players share the exact same mindset. just excuse after excuse. they want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

[ginobli2311]

this except this posturing and these power struggles this long before their contract expires, deron signed a contract to play for utah until 2010, he should honor that and not be positioning himself for 18 months time

it should be done behind closed doors. but i have no problem with a player letting his team know that he doesn't want to be there and that he plans on going to another team.

its part of the game. you'd much rather know that then have a lebron situation drop on you where you think you actually have a chance at keeping him.

[RedBlackAttack]

you can say what you want about lebron last year. but lebron was GREAT in 09 both in the regular season and playoffs.

and it wasn't enough to even force a game 7 in the conference finals.

i know how you feel, but its just so unrealistic to do what you are talking about.
They were in the ECFs. He was 23 years old. That is a lot better than a ton of other franchises had done for their superstar, great players at that age.

[ginobli2311]

First of all, KG was in an entirely different situation than these current guys, so let's toss him out of the equation. He did what he could in Minnesota and only left when it was clear that he was on the downside of his career.

The revisionist history about the Cavs is somewhat fascinating. They went six games with a great Celtics team last year and won 60+ games. This idea that they were a lost cause as a franchise is pure ridiculousness. James playing at half-speed against Boston and they were still gave them a better fight than anyone not named the Lakers... They still led the series 2-1 and seemed in control.

No, the Cavs were not a lost cause. Yes, James could have (and probably would have) eventually won there... He would have had to earn it, though... And it may have been more difficult than his current situation. That doesn't mean that it was a bailout situation.

The Jazz are a young team with some nice pieces. Williams is a young, good player. There is still plenty of time and room to earn a title the old fashioned way, but these kids are all about instant gratification and not caring how it is accomplished.

Same with the Hornets. Paul is playing alongside one of the better PFs in the league... An all-star caliber player. A couple of moves or a couple of good drafts and they are right there.

This sh!t is disgusting and will lead to my (and a lot of fans) completely giving up on the league.

the problem with your assertions is that you are putting the cavs/jazz/hornets
as franchises on the same level as the lakers/celtics. this is just false.

i never said the cavs were a lost cause. they needed a legit 2nd guy like bosh and they would have won a bunch of titles. but bosh didn't want to play there and the front office failed miserably since the finals in 07.

these players learned from kg. why stay loyal to a franchise that doesn't hold up their end. i know you are a huge cavs guy, but if you think its ok that mo williams was the best player lebron got in 7 years....then you are just a huge homer.

life isn't fair. its not fair that the lakers have endless amounts of money and have the highest payroll in the league. its not fair that the celtics have the deepest team in the league with 4 legit all stars.

that is what the nba is. so basically you are saying this:

"i only want there to be like 2 stacked teams in the league and then a bunch of good but not great teams that have a very small chance to win the title....i'd rather have that than have 6 legit teams that can win a title"

i disagree with your take. but we can't have a legit debate if you can't admit that teams like the jazz/cavs/hornets are at serious disadvantages compared to the lakers and celtics.

[ginobli2311]

They were in the ECFs. He was 23 years old. That is a lot better than a ton of other franchises had done for their superstar, great players at that age.

7 years and the best player he got was mo williams or z depending on your take.
they let boozer go.

sorry. thats not good enough.

7 years. most likely around half of his career he gave you. he held up his end. your front office did not. end of story.

[RedBlackAttack]

the problem with your assertions is that you are putting the cavs/jazz/hornets
as franchises on the same level as the lakers/celtics. this is just false.

i never said the cavs were a lost cause. they needed a legit 2nd guy like bosh and they would have won a bunch of titles. but bosh didn't want to play there and the front office failed miserably since the finals in 07.

these players learned from kg. why stay loyal to a franchise that doesn't hold up their end. i know you are a huge cavs guy, but if you think its ok that mo williams was the best player lebron got in 7 years....then you are just a huge homer.

life isn't fair. its not fair that the lakers have endless amounts of money and have the highest payroll in the league. its not fair that the celtics have the deepest team in the league with 4 legit all stars.

that is what the nba is. so basically you are saying this:

"i only want there to be like 2 stacked teams in the league and then a bunch of good but not great teams that have a very small chance to win the title....i'd rather have that than have 6 legit teams that can win a title"

i disagree with your take. but we can't have a legit debate if you can't admit that teams like the jazz/cavs/hornets are at serious disadvantages compared to the lakers and celtics.

Serious disadvantages how? James was playing at his absolute best from 2008-2010. In those three seasons...

In 2008, they lost to the Celtics in seven games with James playing a pretty awful series compared to what he is capable of.

In 2009, they made it further than the Celtics and lost to a Magic team that exploited major matchup disadvantages.

In 2010, they outperformed the Celtics for the entirety of the season, but Boston magically (and unexpectedly) put it all together at the right time and beat the Cavs in six games with James playing at what appeared to be half-speed.

Hardly a ridiculous advantage.

[JustinJDW]

Great, so now everyone just wants to form All-Star teams. What the **** ever happened to pride and competition? :facepalm

[ginobli2311]

and in almost every game they lost, lebron played awful. if he played great, his team wins those games and moves on to the finals. same thing with the celtics series in 08. same thing with the spurs series in 07.

it's funny, even the fans of these players share the exact same mindset. just excuse after excuse. they want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

but i haven't seen one team in the last 30 years win with comparable help to what lebron had in cleveland.

find me that team. maybe the 94/95 rockets or 03 spurs....maybe. but i'd still take those teams for sure over what the cavs had.

so find me a team that won a title with comparable talent.

[dunksby]

On a side note, thats the last thing the Jazz needed, they have already lost Sloan and in crisis, there was no need for him to pull shit like that.

[A.R.T]

the problem with your assertions is that you are putting the cavs/jazz/hornets
as franchises on the same level as the lakers/celtics. this is just false.

i never said the cavs were a lost cause. they needed a legit 2nd guy like bosh and they would have won a bunch of titles. but bosh didn't want to play there and the front office failed miserably since the finals in 07.

these players learned from kg. why stay loyal to a franchise that doesn't hold up their end. i know you are a huge cavs guy, but if you think its ok that mo williams was the best player lebron got in 7 years....then you are just a huge homer.

life isn't fair. its not fair that the lakers have endless amounts of money and have the highest payroll in the league. its not fair that the celtics have the deepest team in the league with 4 legit all stars.

that is what the nba is. so basically you are saying this:

"i only want there to be like 2 stacked teams in the league and then a bunch of good but not great teams that have a very small chance to win the title....i'd rather have that than have 6 legit teams that can win a title"

i disagree with your take. but we can't have a legit debate if you can't admit that teams like the jazz/cavs/hornets are at serious disadvantages compared to the lakers and celtics.

the lakers have one of the worst starting PGs and starting SFs in the league.
the celtics core are all 33+ years old, and their bench is very pedestrian.

quit acting like they're some heralded superteams who have no weaknesses.

[ginobli2311]

Great, so now everyone just wants to form All-Star teams. What the **** ever happened to pride and competition? :facepalm

ask the lakers and celtics. they've had stacked all star teams throughout their history.

funny how nobody ever mentions this.

[ginobli2311]

the lakers have one of the worst starting PGs and starting SFs in the league.
the celtics core are all 33+ years old, and their bench is very pedestrian.

quit acting like they're some heralded superteams who have no weaknesses.

and the heat don't have a lot of weaknesses? LOL

[RedBlackAttack]

7 years and the best player he got was mo williams or z depending on your take.
they let boozer go.

sorry. thats not good enough.

7 years. most likely around half of his career he gave you. he held up his end. your front office did not. end of story.
A team good enough to win 60+ games and compete against the best teams in every postseason...

You can attempt to take apart the roster or how it was put together, but those are the facts. I'm trying to remember a player choosing to leave a team in FA after they fielded those kinds of competitive teams... I don't think it has ever happened.

He didn't want to gut it out and he chose the AAU method... And it will eventually strangle the NBA. That is really all I have to say on the matter.

Look at what it has spawned.

[ginobli2311]

Serious disadvantages how? James was playing at his absolute best from 2008-2010. In those three seasons...

In 2008, they lost to the Celtics in seven games with James playing a pretty awful series compared to what he is capable of.

In 2009, they made it further than the Celtics and lost to a Magic team that exploited major matchup disadvantages.

In 2010, they outperformed the Celtics for the entirety of the season, but Boston magically (and unexpectedly) put it all together at the right time and beat the Cavs in six games with James playing at what appeared to be half-speed.

Hardly a ridiculous advantage.


find me a team that won a title with comparable talent to the cavs in the last 30 years. like i said.....maybe duncan in 03. maybe.

but even then, we'd get into a discussion about how important a post presence on both ends is for winning titles.

but by all means....start rattling off teams that won titles with 1 superstar and comparable talent to the cavs from 07 to last year.

[ginobli2311]

A team good enough to win 60+ games and compete against the best teams in every postseason...

You can attempt to take apart the roster or how it was put together, but those are the facts. I'm trying to remember a player choosing to leave a team in FA after they fielded those kinds of competitive teams... I don't think it has ever happened.

He didn't want to gut it out and he chose the AAU method... And it will eventually strangle the NBA. That is really all I have to say on the matter.

Look at what it has spawned.

but why did they win so many games? well....for one they played in the weaker conference.

but they won those games mostly because of how great lebron was/is. and one player does not win in the playoffs.

nobody is saying that the cavs sucked. they just weren't one of the better teams talent wise or coaching wise. and guess what. in the nba, the most talented teams almost always win.

the nba title is the hardest title to win in all of sports. its the nature of the league and the game. its not football. very hard to win a title without the necessary pieces.

but again.....find me those teams mate. give me examples of teams winning titles with guys like mo williams as the 2nd best player or mike brown at coach.

waiting.....

[RedBlackAttack]

find me a team that won a title with comparable talent to the cavs in the last 30 years. like i said.....maybe duncan in 03. maybe.

but even then, we'd get into a discussion about how important a post presence on both ends is for winning titles.

but by all means....start rattling off teams that won titles with 1 superstar and comparable talent to the cavs from 07 to last year.
The onus isn't on me to prove anything. Those teams proved that they were elite with their performances in the regular season and postseason. Further, James isn't entitled to anything. He should have to earn it just like everyone else.

He played half-hearted in 2010 and that led to his team being eliminated in six games against arguably the best team in the NBA at that point.

[ginobli2311]

A team good enough to win 60+ games and compete against the best teams in every postseason...

You can attempt to take apart the roster or how it was put together, but those are the facts. I'm trying to remember a player choosing to leave a team in FA after they fielded those kinds of competitive teams... I don't think it has ever happened.

He didn't want to gut it out and he chose the AAU method... And it will eventually strangle the NBA. That is really all I have to say on the matter.

Look at what it has spawned.

spawned what? the lakers and celtics have been building all star teams for the last 50 years.

give me a ****ing break man.

[LA_Showtime]

What's wrong with these NBA players? Why does everyone wanna head East? You've got the Celtics, Bulls, Heat, and Magic. I'd rather form a super team in the West, as the Lakers and Spurs are getting older and the Mavericks (at this point) are a fringe contender.

[magnax1]

find me a team that won a title with comparable talent to the cavs in the last 30 years. like i said.....maybe duncan in 03. maybe.

but even then, we'd get into a discussion about how important a post presence on both ends is for winning titles.

but by all means....start rattling off teams that won titles with 1 superstar and comparable talent to the cavs from 07 to last year.
Compared to the competition the 93 Bulls, maybe 94 Rockets, and 75 Warriors. 93 Bulls and Rockets were more talented, but also faced much better competition.

[A.R.T]

but i haven't seen one team in the last 30 years win with comparable help to what lebron had in cleveland.

find me that team. maybe the 94/95 rockets or 03 spurs....maybe. but i'd still take those teams for sure over what the cavs had.

so find me a team that won a title with comparable talent.

you're ignoring the point. you're moving away from specifics and focusing on generalizations. the fact is, the cavs were in a position to win the title for 3 of lebron's 7 years. if he would have performed up to his capabilities, they'd have at least one title. but the fact is that he didn't.

it isn't his team's fault that he shot 35% against the spurs.
it isn't his team's fault that he only showed up for 3 games against the celtics in '08.
it isn't his team's fault he started playing like shit in the back end of the orlando series.
it isn't his team's fault that he quit against the celtics in game 5 '10.

he and HIS TEAM were good enough to get homecourt advantage through the playoffs for 2 straight years. you're telling me having homecourt advantage and two 60 win teams isn't enough help to win a title.

LOL

[niko]

personally, im really dont want to go through another year of drama lol. if dwill wants to come, force a trade this year by the deadline.
You're absolutely freaking delusional.

2012 is far away, we have no idea what the cap would be like, he could be franchised, and we have no assets to move because we are going after Melo.

This is such a non story. I am 100% sure he'd like to be a Knick. I am also 100% sure he could change his mind 787 times until the actual time he could become a Knick.

[RedBlackAttack]

but why did they win so many games? well....for one they played in the weaker conference.

but they won those games mostly because of how great lebron was/is. and one player does not win in the playoffs.

nobody is saying that the cavs sucked. they just weren't one of the better teams talent wise or coaching wise. and guess what. in the nba, the most talented teams almost always win.

the nba title is the hardest title to win in all of sports. its the nature of the league and the game. its not football. very hard to win a title without the necessary pieces.

but again.....find me those teams mate. give me examples of teams winning titles with guys like mo williams as the 2nd best player or mike brown at coach.

waiting.....
:oldlol:

I'm not finding anything. In fact, I'm just skimming your posts, because it is the same argument that you've used at least 10 times on this site when I point to James' cowardice and what it has spawned.

Your revisionist history about the Cavaliers' place in the NBA and James' chances at winning a title there aside... What he did was ultimately awful for the NBA and we are seeing more of it, here.

Basically, that is all I have to say. If you want to turn this into another thread about what the Cavaliers' FO did/did not do while James was there, that is fine... But do it with someone else.

I'm not taking part. It is really unrelated to this topic.

[Bandito]

Originally Posted by ginobli2311
but why did they win so many games? well....for one they played in the weaker conference.

but they won those games mostly because of how great lebron was/is. and one player does not win in the playoffs.

nobody is saying that the cavs sucked. they just weren't one of the better teams talent wise or coaching wise. and guess what. in the nba, the most talented teams almost always win.

the nba title is the hardest title to win in all of sports. its the nature of the league and the game. its not football. very hard to win a title without the necessary pieces.

but again.....find me those teams mate. give me examples of teams winning titles with guys like mo williams as the 2nd best player or mike brown at coach.

waiting.....
The 04 Pistons beat a Lakers team with 4 all stars plus fought to the end a San Antonio Spurs that were as good as them so yeah, it is possible. That and the Cleveland team wasn't as bad as you think IMO. The only thing the didn't had was a like one legit center like Perkins or something like that, because maybe you don't remember because you memory is bad or something but their center were Shaq (slow as ****) and Ilgauskas (I don't want to even start).

[TaLvsCuaL]

http://blog.daddysplace2.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/End-is-near.jpg

[ginobli2311]

The onus isn't on me to prove anything. Those teams proved that they were elite with their performances in the regular season and postseason. Further, James isn't entitled to anything. He should have to earn it just like everyone else.

He played half-hearted in 2010 and that led to his team being eliminated in six games against arguably the best team in the NBA at that point.

so kobe earned it by getting drafted by the lakers and playing with shaq?

magic playing with kareem?

bird getting dj/mchale/parrish?

kobe demanding a trade and then getting gasol and having the highest paid teamin the league?

i just love the double standards. priceless.

lebron actually is entitled to whatever he wants. he chose to leave a horrid franchise with a terrible front office to go to a better team where he has a better chance to win titles. and if he wins? he'll have earned it.....because i've yet for anyone to find me an unfair team that has been formed.

are the heat better than the celtics or lakers? i don't see it. they have many disadvantages and i don't think any logical person would say that kg or pierce or allen didn't earn their title. or that kobe didn't earn his.

stacked teams win titles in the nba. its always been like this. some players like lebron are so good that they can come close without a ton of help. but i've yet see to a perimeter player come closer than lebron has without help.

hakeem and duncan probably won with the least amount of help in the last 30 years, but that speaks more to how important post players are for winning titles.

[ashbelly]

you're ignoring the point. you're moving away from specifics and focusing on generalizations. the fact is, the cavs were in a position to win the title for 3 of lebron's 7 years. if he would have performed up to his capabilities, they'd have at least one title. but the fact is that he didn't.

it isn't his team's fault that he shot 35% against the spurs.
it isn't his team's fault that he only showed up for 3 games against the celtics in '08.
it isn't his team's fault he started playing like shit in the back end of the orlando series.
it isn't his team's fault that he quit against the celtics in game 5 '10.

he and HIS TEAM were good enough to get homecourt advantage through the playoffs for 2 straight years. you're telling me having homecourt advantage and two 60 win teams isn't enough help to win a title.

LOL


the irony :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol:

I'm not finding anything. In fact, I'm just skimming your posts, because it is the same argument that you've used at least 10 times on this site when I point to James' cowardice and what it has spawned.

Your revisionist history about the Cavaliers' place in the NBA and James' chances at winning a title there aside... What he did was ultimately awful for the NBA and we are seeing more of it, here.

Basically, that is all I have to say. If you want to turn this into another thread about what the Cavaliers' FO did/did not do while James was there, that is fine... But do it with someone else.

I'm not taking part. It is really unrelated to this topic.

actually it is.

but you live in a fantasy land in which deron williams has the same chances to win titles as kobe bryant. as you said....its simple. "be great"

but that is fantasy...not reality.

so like i said. we can't have a legit discussion because you ignore the entire history of the nba.
:cheers:

[ginobli2311]

you're ignoring the point. you're moving away from specifics and focusing on generalizations. the fact is, the cavs were in a position to win the title for 3 of lebron's 7 years. if he would have performed up to his capabilities, they'd have at least one title. but the fact is that he didn't.

it isn't his team's fault that he shot 35% against the spurs.
it isn't his team's fault that he only showed up for 3 games against the celtics in '08.
it isn't his team's fault he started playing like shit in the back end of the orlando series.
it isn't his team's fault that he quit against the celtics in game 5 '10.

he and HIS TEAM were good enough to get homecourt advantage through the playoffs for 2 straight years. you're telling me having homecourt advantage and two 60 win teams isn't enough help to win a title.

LOL

my god. how can people continue to over-rate the shit out of a cavs team that was maybe a 35 win team without lebron.

LOL

[macpierce]

60+ wins in the regular season is 60+ wins in the regular season, that right there is an accomplishment, you dont win 60 + games with a shitty team...........
you dont need to defend your man lebron
werent the cavs in 09 and 10 one of the top 2 teams in the east?? how can you not be a contender taking that into account???

[Darius]

Even tho I am a Clipper fan (a team that could concieviably benefit from this trend since they are in the largest market) I think this needs to be stopped. This kinda thing could ruin the L if its not held in check.

[RedBlackAttack]

actually it is.

but you live in a fantasy land in which deron williams has the same chances to win titles as kobe bryant. as you said....its simple. "be great"

but that is fantasy...not reality.

so like i said. we can't have a legit discussion because you ignore the entire history of the nba.
:cheers:
Actually, it is you that is ignoring the entire history of the NBA. Not every superstar that has ever played in the NBA has had the same chances to win a title. In fact, most haven't played for the best team all-around team.

Some guys are on teams that are better than others. It happens... And it will continue to happen to varying degrees. However, by continually loading up 3-4 teams with all of the best players, fans will begin to lose interest in all other markets and the league will suffer... Just like MLB has.

[ginobli2311]

Even tho I am a Clipper fan (a team that could concieviably benefit from this trend since they are in the largest market) I think this needs to be stopped. This kinda thing could ruin the L if its not held in check.

so you'll be fine when the clippers trade away eric gordon or something and don't do a good job building around griffin?

[Bandito]

*cough* 04 pistons

[A.R.T]

my god. how can people continue to over-rate the shit out of a cavs team that was maybe a 35 win team without lebron.

LOL

yet this '35 win team' was good enough to beat the pistons in '07 and take the celtics to 7 in '08 despite lebron playing like absolute shit in over half of the games.

LOL, just ignore my post and continue crying because your idol has as many rings as you do. here, i'll cry with you.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[RedBlackAttack]

my god. how can people continue to over-rate the shit out of a cavs team that was maybe a 35 win team without lebron.

LOL
Because how the team would preform minus the player that they've built around is truly the best gauge of the franchise. :oldlol:

[tpols]

the problem with your assertions is that you are putting the cavs/jazz/hornets
as franchises on the same level as the lakers/celtics. this is just false.

i never said the cavs were a lost cause. they needed a legit 2nd guy like bosh and they would have won a bunch of titles. but bosh didn't want to play there and the front office failed miserably since the finals in 07.

these players learned from kg. why stay loyal to a franchise that doesn't hold up their end. i know you are a huge cavs guy, but if you think its ok that mo williams was the best player lebron got in 7 years....then you are just a huge homer.

life isn't fair. its not fair that the lakers have endless amounts of money and have the highest payroll in the league. its not fair that the celtics have the deepest team in the league with 4 legit all stars.

that is what the nba is. so basically you are saying this:

"i only want there to be like 2 stacked teams in the league and then a bunch of good but not great teams that have a very small chance to win the title....i'd rather have that than have 6 legit teams that can win a title"

i disagree with your take. but we can't have a legit debate if you can't admit that teams like the jazz/cavs/hornets are at serious disadvantages compared to the lakers and celtics.
This revisionist history is sickening.. The cavaliers have had vegas odds and all the analysts saying they could beat boston.. and they even had a 2-1 lead on them in that series, yet they had no chance at beating them? Give me a break.. that makes no sense because if you watched the games, it was possible for them to beat them and it took james bailing on his teammates in the most pivotal game of the series for the momentum to be completely swung.

Lebron could have won a title in cleveland.. and it's funny that people are acting like he didn't have a good team around him at all and never had a chance at winning. He had a good defensive frontline, a good defensive coach, and a good defensive team packed with guys who could shoot. You want to play the second option card? Well I guess Aaron mckie at 12 ppg or whatever he contributed was all Allen Iverson needed for a second option to make it to the finals..

This second option shit is bullshit. Dirk, who isn't even on lebron's level, had a shitty unexperienced coach and a streaky second option in jason terry and he came within an eyelash of winning a title. The pistons won with their best players all being what we would consider role players. The spurs won in the same fashion in 03 with Tim Duncan having no help(and they played a team in the finals that was jason kidd+scrubs) Teams in very recent history have won without having the best players in the league. Boston and the Spurs AS WE SPEAK don't have a top ten player in the nba on their teams.. yet they are title favorites right now.

The excuses being made after the fact are just.. dumb. You don't need to have a great second option to win.. you need to have a great team to win. And part of having a great team is being a great player and improving the guys around you. That's why magic is considered so great.. that's why a lot of players are considered great. Teams shouldn't just be instantly created like this.. they should be built from the ground up.

Lebron has generated this whole attitude of everybody needing great second options and third options and is causing people to collaborate and create monopolies in the league. It really isn't good for the majority of basketball fans because most of them will be fans of the teams that suck.

[ginobli2311]

Actually, it is you that is ignoring the entire history of the NBA. Not every superstar that have ever played in the NBA have had the same chance to win a title. In fact, most haven't played for the best team all-around team.

Some guys are on teams that are better than others. It happens... And it will continue to happen to varying degrees. However, by continually loading up 3-4 teams with all of the best players, fans will begin to lose interest in all other markets and the league will suffer... Just like MLB has.

and i totally agree with that. i'm not for it as a fan. but i'm not going to get mad at the players like you are.

i don't blame a player for wanting to win. and where we disagree is that you think the cavs/hornets/jazz have as good of chances to win as the lakers/celtics.

as a fan, i wish they contracted 5 teams and put a hard cap on each team to make it more fair. but that is not realistic.

i guess i'd rather have 4 stacked teams and a more watered down middle than 2 stacked teams and a bunch of good teams with very small chances to win a title.

and why are you claiming only 4 teams? lets say all these trades went down.

lakers are stacked
celtics are stacked
heat are stacked
knicks would have melo/amare/williams...stacked
bulls are stacked
lets say the thunder add a good big....they are stacked
mavs are stacked currently and are legit if butler comes back or a trade happens
spurs definitely have enough

so how many teams is that? thats 8 teams this year that have a legit chance to win if a few of these trades or moves happen.

so where are you getting 4 teams from? nowhere mate.

[ginobli2311]

This revisionist history is sickening.. The cavaliers have had vegas odds and all the analysts saying they could beat boston.. and they even had a 2-1 lead on them in that series, yet they had no chance at beating them? Give me a break.. that makes no sense because if you watched the games, it was possible for them to beat them and it took james bailing on his teammates in the most pivotal game of the series for the momentum to be completely swung.

Lebron could have won a title in cleveland.. and it's funny that people are acting like he didn't have a good team around him at all and never had a chance at winning. He had a good defensive frontline, a good defensive coach, and a good defensive team packed with guys who could shoot. You want to play the second option card? Well I guess Aaron mckie at 12 ppg or whatever he contributed was all Allen Iverson needed for a second option to make it to the finals..

This second option shit is bullshit. Dirk, who isn't even on lebron's level, had a shitty unexperienced coach and a streaky second option in jason terry and he came within an eyelash of winning a title. The pistons won with their best players all being what we would consider role players. The spurs won in the same fashion in 03 with Tim Duncan having no help(and they played a team in the finals that was jason kidd+scrubs) Teams in very recent history have won without having the best players in the league. Boston and the Spurs AS WE SPEAK don't have a top ten player in the nba on their teams.. yet they are title favorites right now.

The excuses being made after the fact are just.. dumb. You don't need to have a great second option to win.. you need to have a great team to win. And part of having a great team is being a great player and improving the guys around you. That's why magic is considered so great.. that's why a lot of players are considered great. Teams shouldn't just be instantly created like this.. they should be built from the ground up.

Lebron has generated this whole attitude of everybody needing great second options and third options and is causing people to collaborate and create monopolies in the league. It really isn't good for the majority of basketball fans because most of them will be fans of the teams that suck.

lol

tpols at it again. the entire history of the nba proves you wrong yet you continue to spew your revisionist history garbage as usual.
:roll:

[macpierce]

at least redblack attack has provided valid points rather than revising history and posting with a bunch of smiley faces to save face.............

[Gifted Mind]

First of all, KG was in an entirely different situation than these current guys, so let's toss him out of the equation. He did what he could in Minnesota and only left when it was clear that he was on the downside of his career.

The revisionist history about the Cavs is somewhat fascinating. They went six games with a great Celtics team last year and won 60+ games. This idea that they were a lost cause as a franchise is pure ridiculousness. James played at half-speed against Boston and they still gave them a better fight than anyone not named the Lakers... They still led the series 2-1 and seemed in control.

No, the Cavs were not a lost cause. Yes, James could have (and probably would have) eventually won there... He would have had to earn it, though... And it may have been more difficult than his current situation. That doesn't mean that it was a bailout situation.

The Jazz are a young team with some nice pieces. Williams is a young, good player. There is still plenty of time and room to earn a title the old fashioned way, but these kids are all about instant gratification and not caring how it is accomplished.

Same with the Hornets. Paul is playing alongside one of the better PFs in the league... An all-star caliber player. A couple of moves or a couple of good drafts and they are right there.

This sh!t is disgusting and will lead to my (and a lot of fans) completely giving up on the league.


Welcome to the 80s and even 90s as a matter of fact. There were many good teams like the Jazz and Hornets. Guess how many titles they won against the stacked Lakers/Bulls/Celtics? 0.

This is the NBA. To win the championship you have to beat other teams in a Best out of 7 Series. It becomes very difficult to do this if you are not truly the best. Teams who are not favored to win at the beginning rarely ever win. The Detroit Pistons of 2004 might be an exception, but even they were at least a Top 5 favorite to win the championship and had tremendous defense, both of which the Jazz and Hornets don't have. And this happens so rarely, it becomes a lost cause. We've seen it work like this all throughout NBA History.

I'd also like to mention the NBA was in its golden era when there were stacked teams at the top. Their best years came when we saw dominant teams like Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics and Michael's Bulls. Furthermore, the worst years for the NBA came from 05-07, when the league was the most balanced.




Though I'll admit the Cavaliers were not a lost cause with LeBron James. But teams such as Hornets and Jazz, they were never destined to win an NBA Championship through what they have against what they have to go against.

[tpols]

at least redblack attack has provided valid points rather than revising history and posting with a bunch of smiley faces to save face.............
Yea typical gino:oldlol:

The funny thing is that the spurs and the C's are one and two in the running for most likely to win a ring right now and they don't have a single 'superstar' on their team(I'm talking elite top ten player).

[ginobli2311]

at least redblack attack has provided valid points rather than revising history and posting with a bunch of smiley faces to save face.............

actually he's totally speaking from a cavs fan point of view. he can't find any teams that won titles with what lebron had.

he's claiming that the hornets/jazz/cavs have as good of a chance to win titles as the lakers/celtics.

again. just complete and utter bs.

like i said. you guys don't live in reality. its all fantasy land where "being great" is enough.

its not.

[RedBlackAttack]

lakers are stacked
celtics are stacked
heat are stacked
knicks would have melo/amare/williams...stacked
bulls are stacked
lets say the thunder add a good big....they are stacked
mavs are stacked currently and are legit if butler comes back or a trade happens
spurs definitely have enough


Lakers, Spurs and Celtics are toward the end of their respective roads, especially with the other major teams loading up on all of the talent. The Mavs have done well this year, but again... With all of the talent being concentrated on these few teams, they won't really have much of a shot at a title.

The future of the league will be all Heat, Knicks... MAYBE the Bulls if they are able to lure in other great players (and further deplete the rest of the league)... Same for the Lakers.

Actually, if these moves continue to happen, the league will probably be dominated by less than four teams. I mean, someone has to win in the other divisions, so teams will put up nice regular season records... But, when three franchises have 12 franchise players, it sort of makes the playing field unbalanced, does it not?

[ginobli2311]

Yea typical gino:oldlol:

The funny thing is that the spurs and the C's are one and two in the running for most likely to win a ring right now and they don't have a single 'superstar' on their team(I'm talking elite top ten player).

you don't have to have a superstar. never said you did. i said if you build a team around a superstar, you need certain things. one of them is a reliable 2nd guy.

you said it yourself. you need a great TEAM. i never thought the cavs were a great team. but i think they would have been one of the best teams i've seen if they added bosh or gasol or bogut......

they were missing that legit 2nd guy.

do you really need a history lesson of what wins in the nba?

[UtahJazzFan88]

Haha, I like Deron, but he seems like a sellout just like any of these other guys joining a super team.

I've enjoyed his time here, but I'm honestly starting to be OK with the fact that Deron Williams will be leaving us after next season, I've became okay with it because has any team really won a championship with their best/star player at the PG position (and who scores the most points), I know the Jazz don't have a championship team without him, but I think we could be better off in the future building around a different piece.

[RedBlackAttack]

Welcome to the 80s and even 90s as a matter of fact. There were many good teams like the Jazz and Hornets. Guess how many titles they won against the stacked Lakers/Bulls/Celtics? 0.

This is the NBA. To win the championship you have to beat other teams in a Best out of 7 Series. It becomes very difficult to do this if you are not truly the best. Teams who are not favored to win at the beginning rarely ever win. The Detroit Pistons of 2004 might be an exception, but even they were at least a Top 5 favorite to win the championship and had tremendous defense, both of which the Jazz and Hornets don't have. And this happens so rarely, it becomes a lost cause. We've seen it work like this all throughout NBA History.

I'd also like to mention the NBA was in its golden era when there were stacked teams at the top. Their best years came when we saw dominant teams like Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics and Michael's Bulls. Furthermore, the worst years for the NBA came from 05-07, when the league was the most balanced.




Though I'll admit the Cavaliers were not a lost cause with LeBron James. But teams such as Hornets and Jazz, they were never destined to win an NBA Championship through what they have against what they have to go against.

Like I said... In the 80s and 90s, teams built powerhouses through the draft, not through free agency. It is difficult to blame the league for franchises that have great drafts and build great teams through those great drafts.

It is an entirely different thing when the competitiveness of the league becomes massively unbalanced based on virtually every franchise player choosing -- in their primes -- to play on the same three or four teams.

Yeah, the NBA has historically been dominated by a handful of great teams. However, never was the league been so completely transformed by players teaming up and leaving the rest of the NBA hopeless.

This is new.

[ginobli2311]

Lakers, Spurs and Celtics are toward the end of their respective roads, especially with the other major teams loading up on all of the talent. The Mavs have done well this year, but again... With all of the talent being concentrated on these few teams, they won't really have much of a shot at a title.

The future of the league will be all Heat, Knicks... MAYBE the Bulls if they are able to lure in other great players (and further deplete the rest of the league)... Same for the Lakers.

Actually, if these moves continue to happen, the league will probably be dominated by less than four teams. I mean, someone has to win in the other divisions, so teams will put up nice regular season records... But, when three franchises have 12 franchise players, it sort of makes the playing field unbalanced, does it not?

we don't know what the future holds. but again....how is this different than what has happened the last 30 years.

what teams have won titles?

bulls 6
pistons 3
lakers 10
rockets 2
celtics 4
heat 1
spurs 4
76ers 1

LOL...welcome to reality mate.

24 of the last 31 titles have been won by 4 teams (spurs/celtics/bulls/lakers)

how is that any different from the future you are predicting?

i'm sure i'm missing something because we just lived through exactly what you are bitching about. the only difference now is that hopefully we don't have to watch elite players waste their careers in bad markets like kg had to suffer through.

again what you fail to see is the reality that the rest of the nba has always been hopeless.....the above proves it. 6 teams have won 29 of the last 31 titles. LOL....the revisionist history is priceless. acting like this is a new thing.

again. 6 teams have won 29 of the last 31 titles. jesus....how could it get any worse?

[Gifted Mind]

Like I said... In the 80s and 90s, teams built powerhouses through the draft, not through free agency. It is difficult to blame the league for franchises that have great drafts and build great teams through those great drafts.

It is an entirely different thing when the competitiveness of the league becomes massively unbalanced based on virtually every franchise player choosing -- in their primes -- to play on the same three or four teams.

Yeah, the NBA has historically been dominated by a handful of great teams. However, never was the league so completely transformed by players teaming up and leaving the rest of the NBA hopeless.

This is new.

So you are suggesting that fans will care more about how a team is formed rather than how a team plays basketball when it comes to watching basketball?

It's possible, but doubtful.

[Knicksfever2010]

Give me a break, man. The Knicks should have to build their roster just like every other franchise in the league, not have all of the best players handed to them.

but it was ok for the lakers to aquire shaq through free agency ? ok for them to get gasol in a joke of a trade?

it was ok for the celtics to get kg/allen in one summer?

ok for wade to recruit lebron/bosh to the heat?

if other teams get to pull these shenanigans, so can the knicks!

[ginobli2311]

So you are suggesting that fans will care more about how a team is formed rather than how a team plays basketball when it comes to watching basketball?

It's possible, but doubtful.

they won't.

did they care about how the lakers got shaq and kobe...or gasol for free?

did they care that magic only came out for the chance to play with kareem?

give me a break. i don't get why it should just be left to chance which players have good circumstances.

is anyone here really telling me that they would still advise KG to stick it out in minny for a decade? please answer.

[tpols]

we don't know what the future holds. but again....how is this different than what has happened the last 30 years.

what teams have won titles?

bulls 6
pistons 3
lakers 10
rockets 2
celtics 4
heat 1
spurs 4
76ers 1

LOL...welcome to reality mate.

24 of the last 31 titles have been won by 4 teams (spurs/celtics/bulls/lakers)

how is that any different from the future you are predicting?

Yup..

MJ and the bulls won with a homegrown scottie pippen and MJ..

The lakers won with a homegrown magic and kareem..

Detroit won with a great defensive TEAM effort for all of their rings..

The lakers won with a homegrown kobe and shaq, and then with kobe plus a great frontline(no superstars though~just a great bunch of big men to have in a league where there are very few))..

The Celtics won with a great homegrown team in the 80s and then again with a great team of guys who joined up AFTER they had exhausted themselves elsewhere..

It's all very different than having superstars just join up on random teams. It gives the league a WWE 'fake' type of feeling. If you cant comprehend the difference between growing and forming a team, and a bunch of guys just giving in to one another and collaborating AFTER they already became great then I don't know what to tell you.

[ginobli2311]

Yup..

MJ and the bulls won with a homegrown scottie pippen and MJ..

The lakers won with a homegrown magic and kareem..

Detroit won with a great defensive TEAM effort for all of their rings..

The lakers won with a homegrown kobe and shaq, and then with kobe plus a great frontline(no superstars though~just a great bunch of big men to have in a league where there are very few))..

The Celtics won with a great homegrown team in the 80s and then again with a great team of guys who joined up AFTER they had exhausted themselves elsewhere..

It's all very different than having superstars just join up on random teams. It gives the league a WWE 'fake' type of feeling. If you cant comprehend the difference between growing and forming a team, and a bunch of guys just giving in to one another and collaborating AFTER they already became great then I don't know what to tell you.


like i've said a million times. you can hate how the teams are formed. i hate it as well, but it does not change the reality of the situation in terms of basketball

and guess what. magic came out only to play with kareem. kobe forced his way to the lakers.

gasol was gifted to the lakers.

i have a problem with how those things went down, but it did not provide an unfair advantage. kobe still had to play great to win titles. same with shaq, same with magic, same with gasol.

until i see a team so stacked that its truly unfair....i'm going to be ok with this.

so while i totally agree with your take, it doesn't change the basketball aspect of this. and again its not fair to mention the current teams and not bring up some of the shady bs that was going on back in the day and as recently as the gasol trade.

[RedBlackAttack]

So you are suggesting that fans will care more about how a team is formed rather than how a team plays basketball when it comes to watching basketball?

It's possible, but doubtful.
I'm saying that it is difficult to blame the league or specific franchises for having great drafts. That is what makes the best franchises what they are (or were).

When it is all of these franchise players in their primes choosing to play together... That is a completely different dynamic and, yes... I do think that people will turn away from it eventually... The same way that they've turned away from baseball, who does exactly the same thing.

It isn't just about watching the great teams play, either. It is also about watching teams grow together... Fail together... And eventually overcome. When you have this mashup of elite guys, it takes away the fans' ability to connect with teams on a natural level.

Some may think that this is just sour grapes over what has happened to the Cavaliers. It really isn't... This is about my love for the NBA which is beginning to wane because of the attitude of these young guys that, either titles should be handed to them or they need to leave to make things as easy as possible.

It just goes against everything that I've loved about the NBA and sports in general.

[magnax1]

like i've said a million times. you can hate how the teams are formed. i hate it as well, but it does not change the reality of the situation in terms of basketball

and guess what. magic came out only to play with kareem. kobe forced his way to the lakers.

gasol was gifted to the lakers.

i have a problem with how those things went down, but it did not provide an unfair advantage. kobe still had to play great to win titles. same with shaq, same with magic, same with gasol.

until i see a team so stacked that its truly unfair....i'm going to be ok with this.

so while i totally agree with your take, it doesn't change the basketball aspect of this. and again its not fair to mention the current teams and not bring up some of the shady bs that was going on back in the day and as recently as the gasol trade.
I've got to say that Gasol going to the Lakers is not even remotely the same as Kobe with Shaq or Magic with Kareem. Pau is good, but it's sort of silly to talk about him like that.

[tpols]

like i've said a million times. you can hate how the teams are formed. i hate it as well, but it does not change the reality of the situation in terms of basketball

and guess what. magic came out only to play with kareem. kobe forced his way to the lakers.

gasol was gifted to the lakers.

i have a problem with how those things went down, but it did not provide an unfair advantage. kobe still had to play great to win titles. same with shaq, same with magic, same with gasol.

until i see a team so stacked that its truly unfair....i'm going to be ok with this.

so while i totally agree with your take, it doesn't change the basketball aspect of this. and again its not fair to mention the current teams and not bring up some of the shady bs that was going on back in the day and as recently as the gasol trade.
Magic was a unproven rookie.. Kobe was a 17 year old scrub for a while.. pippen was nothing before he got there.. gasol wasn't even a top fifteen player in the league when he was traded to the lakers..

Comparing ANY of them lebron and wade joining forces or deron/amare/melo joining forces makes no sense. We're talking ELITE players all joining up in their primes. Gasol was never elite. Kobe wasn't elite when he first got to LA. Hell, nobody though magic would be as good as he was right off the bat.

Those situations are not comparable. This is turning the nba into a sitcom instead of a competitive league.

[ginobli2311]

I've got to say that Gasol going to the Lakers is not even remotely the same as Kobe with Shaq or Magic with Kareem. Pau is good, but it's sort of silly to talk about him like that.

i didn't put him in the class of them as players.

but he's a top 10 or top 15 player in the league that was added to a team that lost virtually nothing in conference.

it completley changed the fortune of the team overnight. which is exactly what tpols is saying is terrible for the league.

my point is that i don't care how these teams are formed unless it just gets absurd. and it is not even close to absurd yet because there are more teams this year that have a title chance than the last few years. its not like there is 1 team that is so much better than everyone.

spurs/lakers/heat/celtics.......does anyone really know which team would win?

then throw in the mavs and bulls. if a couple of moves happen you could throw in the thunder as well. so why is it a bad thing? you are telling me its would be bad for the league if the thunder got bogut and the knicks got melo and williams? and the magic got nash and hill?

LOL.....i think it would be great.

[ginobli2311]

Magic was a unproven rookie.. Kobe was a 17 year old scrub for a while.. pippen was nothing before he got there.. gasol wasn't even a top fifteen player in the league when he was traded to the lakers..

Comparing ANY of them lebron and wade joining forces or deron/amare/melo joining forces makes no sense. We're talking ELITE players all joining up in their primes. Gasol was never elite. Kobe wasn't elite when he first got to LA. Hell, nobody though magic would be as good as he was right off the bat.

Those situations are not comparable. This is turning the nba into a sitcom instead of a competitive league.

its not always about elite players joining elite players. its not some power level thing where each player gives you a certain amount of points. the reason these players are forced to do this is because of how poorly 90% of nba teams are run.

whether you think kobe or lebron or wade is better. lets just say they are all similar. so if its so unfair that lebron and wade joined up, why aren't they dominating the league? why aren't they clearly the favorites? why are other teams like the celtics and mavs embarrassing them when they play?

could it be that there is a lot more to building a team than just having two elite players? coaching, chemistry, bench play.....all of that stuff plays a role in winning.

again...you have a problem with HOW these teams are formed. and that is fine. but you are arguing against yourself on the other stuff. because you know its not unfair.

its keeping up with the history of the game....its just happening in a different way....and its happening a new way because of the fact that great players are wasting their careers playing with average to below average help. look at what wade had the last few years. look at what kg had his entire time in minny. look at cp3 and deron. give me a break. i don't get why you can't see the difference. do you really think lebron would have left if they kept boozer or added gasol in 08 or something? not a chance. but that didn't happen. do you honestly think that mj would have as many titles right now if pippen didn't come along? you keep giving examples that support my points. a few franchises to a great job of building teams.....the problem is that more do a really poor job and that is what has created this problem.

i showed you the evidence. the nba has been completely dominated by 6 teams in the last 31 years. 29 titles from only 6 teams? and i'm supposed to sit here and complain about superteams being formed? LOL

[RedBlackAttack]

could it be that there is a lot more to building a team than just having two elite players? coaching, chemistry, bench play.....all of that stuff plays a role in winning.
If the result of completely killing multiple franchises to create one super-team is that the team still isn't good enough to win a title, that almost makes the whole thing even more pathetic and sad.

The Heat not being good enough to win it all is not an an appropriate counter to people who are sick about the direction in which the league is going and how elite teams are being formed.

[tpols]

again...you have a problem with HOW these teams are formed. and that is fine. but you are arguing against yourself on the other stuff. because you know its not unfair.

its keeping up with the history of the game....its just happening in a different way.

This is literally what this topic is about. It's about the manner with which players are leaving their teams and joining up with other elite players..

We have been talking about HOW teams are formed this whole time. That is literally the premise of the thread. So if you don't care in the least bit about HOW these teams are formed, then what the fvck are you doing in this conversation?

[ginobli2311]

This is literally what this topic is about. It's about the manner with which players are leaving their teams and joining up with other elite players..

We have been talking about HOW teams are formed this whole time. That is literally the premise of the thread. So if you don't care in the least bit about HOW these teams are formed, then what the fvck are you doing in this conversation?

because you are claiming its bad for the league that these superteams are being created.

and my response has already blown that out of the water.

how many times do i have to show you the evidence. 6 teams are responsible for 29 of the last 31 titles.

4 teams are responsible for 24 of the last 31 titles.

how can it get worse than that?

[RedBlackAttack]

and my response has already blown that out of the water.
No offense, but I think that you may be a bit biased in evaluating who has gotten the better of this particular debate.

Just sayin'. You've 'blown it out of the water'? Really? Where did that happen?

[magnax1]

I think Dallas is trying to get Deron, I'm not so sure that NY is going for him at all.

[ginobli2311]

If the result of completely killing multiple franchises to create one super-team is that the team still isn't good enough to win a title, that almost makes the whole thing even more pathetic and sad.

The Heat not being good enough to win it all is not an an appropriate counter to people who are sick about the direction in which the league is going and how elite teams are being formed.

they are definitely good enough to win it. its just not unfair and it didn't destroy the nba.

here is the problem.

lebron stays in cleveland and lets say he wins 1 titles for the remainder of his career (that is most likely what would have happened)

cavs fans rejoice and love lebron. then history comes along and says lebron isn't one of the best players ever because he only has 1 ring. fair? hardly.

so basically you think that players should be forced to stay on teams that aren't trying as hard to win as others. kg in minny is a perfect example

please answer. if you could go back in time and advise kg on whether or not to stay in minny after his rookie deal...would you tell him to stay or leave?

[SavageMode]

Miami did it, so why can't Deron do it?
Itd be sick to see Deron,Melo,Amare

Stern did it for Gasol without getting the negative media hype.

[Kblaze8855]

People acting like its gonna hurt the league need to get real. Nobody at the league offices is shook of the final 4 in the east potentially being some combo of the Bulls, Heat, Knicks, and Celtics(or the Magic with Dwight/Arenas/Jameer/Jrich/Hedo). And "Real fans" arent gonna fail to be interested in such a series either. Perhaps some fans in scorned cities might ***** but.....so what? If you think general interest in that ECSF wouldnt be higher than having the Nets/Pistons/Pacers/whoever from years ago...you are ****ing stupid.

And what is with this "Back in the day..." shit? Acting like we need to get back to that? The league isnt dying now...it WAS dying before all this got going. Oscar Robertsons lawsuit only won free agency in the mid to late 70s. As of 1980 the NBA finals were still shown tape delay in the middle of the night. Then there was the era of free agency. And players coming into power.

The Lakers were not some team built the classy way. Kareem got sick of being in a small town...and forced a trade to one of two places. LA or New York. Kareem forced his way out to one of the 2 biggest markets. And Magic later said he flat out would have refused to play in chicago had they taken him after the coin toss. Look it up. Not hard to find. Magic admitted he would have gone to LA over chicago. In fact ill do it now...from 1991 before the finals he was asked about how he could have been a Bull himself:

Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

[QUOTE]

[ginobli2311]

No offense, but I think that you may be a bit biased in evaluating who has gotten the better of this particular debate.

Just sayin'. You've 'blown it out of the water'? Really? Where did that happen?

maybe when i showed you the last 30 years of nba history.

and what was your assertion?

"that only 4 teams winning titles is going to ruin the league"

well.....6 teams being responsible for 29 of the last 31 titles kind of blows your assertion out of the water don't you think?

[Kblaze8855]

I actually forgot Kobe/Shaq. One guy bolts a small town for LA...and another just refuses to play anywhere else. Dyansty.

I notice the league survived.

[tpols]

because you are claiming its bad for the league that these superteams are being created.

and my response has already blown that out of the water.

how many times do i have to show you the evidence. 6 teams are responsible for 29 of the last 31 titles.

4 teams are responsible for 24 of the last 31 titles.

how can it get worse than that?
Uh.. where have I said it would be bad for the league? I said it's a cop out and it makes everything feel fake when these guys all ship out and team up in their primes after they all failed as the 'man' on their respective teams..

LOL you have serious comprehensive issues. This thread IS about HOW guys are joining.. not just about the aftermath.

[tpols]

I actually forgot Kobe/Shaq. One guy bolts a small town for LA...and another just refuses to play anywhere else. Dyansty.

I notice the league survived.
Are you comparing a 14th pick 17 year old rookie developing into a great player over multiple years to guys like lebron, wade, melo, deron, and amare all teaming up in their primes?

[ginobli2311]

Uh.. where have I said it would be bad for the league? I said it's a cop out and it makes everything feel fake when these guys all ship out and team up in their primes after they all failed as the 'man' on their respective teams..

LOL you have serious comprehensive issues. This thread IS about HOW guys are joining.. not just about the aftermath.

wade failed? he won a title and finals mvp in his 3rd year. see...this is my point.

you are part of the reason these teams are forming this way now. wade is sick of hearing about he's failed as the man. because anyone with a brain knows that he hasn't had a legit squad since 07.

it would be like someone saying kobe failed as being the man from 05 to 08. do you think that is fair? really? kobe is supposed to win a title with parker and mihm and kwame?

ahhhh how paper thin these arguments are.

[DeronMillsap]

I think Dallas is trying to get Deron, I'm not so sure that NY is going for him at all.
Yeah, I see him going to Dallas or LA(Lakers or Clippers) if he's staying not in Utah, and sadly I don't think he is staying.

[ginobli2311]

Are you comparing a 14th pick 17 year old rookie developing into a great player over multiple years to guys like lebron, wade, melo, deron, and amare all teaming up in their primes?

but the guys you mention wouldn't have left or want to leave if they had a budding "kobe bryant" type player on their teams.

just look at kobe. he didn't want to wait on bynum. he clowned him and begged his team to trade him for jason kid. lol

if these guys were doing this as rookies or something i'd agree. but lebron/wade/bosh are in their 8th year and were all on franchises that couldn't build legit contenders around them.

in b4 jj hickson over-rating happens.

[RedBlackAttack]

maybe when i showed you the last 30 years of nba history.

and what was your assertion?

"that only 4 teams winning titles is going to ruin the league"

well.....6 teams being responsible for 29 of the last 31 titles kind of blows your assertion out of the water don't you think?
What? This is about how the teams are formed. What are you even talking about?


A hard cap would end all of this nonsense. Please let the owners have some balls during the next CBA negotiation.

[tpols]

wade failed? he won a title and finals mvp in his 3rd year. see...this is my point.

you are part of the reason these teams are forming this way now. wade is sick of hearing about he's failed as the man. because anyone with a brain knows that he hasn't had a legit squad since 07.

it would be like someone saying kobe failed as being the man from 05 to 08. do you think that is fair? really? kobe is supposed to win a title with parker and mihm and kwame?

ahhhh how paper thin these arguments are.
Why do you latch on to one little aspect of my post and COMPLETELY ignore the main question it is asking?

I am not debating for it's aftermath in the league.. I'm talking about the manner in which these teams are being formed.

Your nickname should be the straw man:oldlol:

[OmniStrife]

at least lebron played out his contract and never asked for a trade during a contract
Shhh!! You're making LeBron look compared to all these recent *******...

Nash should teach all those kids some professionalism.

[ginobli2311]

What? This is about how the teams are formed. What are you even talking about?


A hard cap would end all of this nonsense. Please let the owners have some balls during the next CBA negotiation.

no its not.

you've repeatedly said that this is bad for the nba because only 4 teams would win titles going forward and that it would ruin the league.

i have said i don't like how they are formed, but its needed because the nba is a joke in terms of competitive balance over the last 30 years.

and the reality is that its counter intuitive. the more superteams the more interesting the league will be and the more teams will have a chance to win.

as i proved in a post.

so if your only complaint is how they are formed and not the result then we are cool.

but when you go on about "being great" and that super teams will destroy the league....then we have a problem.

and i've already shown you that the last 31 years have been exactly what you are complaining about.

[ginobli2311]

Why do you latch on to one little aspect of my post and COMPLETELY ignore the main question it is asking?

I am not debating for it's aftermath in the league.. I'm talking about the manner in which these teams are being formed.

Your nickname should be the straw man:oldlol:

and that is fine. i have a problem with how they are formed as well in a perfect world.

but i feel that its needed now because of how poor most franchises are and how many players get screwed playing on bad teams.

my point is that the nba has always been dominated by great players playing together. thats all.

this is nothing new on the court. the only difference is now there are more teams with great talent. i'm all for that.

[eliteballer]

FIRST OFF...Kobe refusing to play anywhere but the Lakers was ALREADY debunked by someone who was part of Nets or Hornets management at the time, and I forgot who.

The PROBLEM here is when THREE guys deliberately make a plan together to go somewhere in free agency and DELIBERATELY form a team that outweighs everyone else. ESPECIALLY when its two consensus top five guys like LeBron/Wade.

I don't blame Melo, Dwight, CP3, Deron. They are only REACTING to what LeBron did, because it will be damn near impossible for the to compete with Miami.

[LA_Showtime]

You can't hate on the Miami trio. They saw an opportunity to play together and they took it. They gave up money; they gave up being the man; they up the limelight... how can you fault them? The only poor decision in all of this was their pep rally after the fact.

[Patrick Chewing]

http://sogacity.com/images/johnwallo.gif

[RedBlackAttack]

and i've already shown you that the last 31 years have been exactly what you are complaining about.
...and I've stated time and again that great franchises remaining great due to great draft classes and superior ownership making the right moves at the right time is wholly different from franchise players conspiring to join the same handful of teams. I've also said that this is the reason for the decline of MLB and, further, I would also assert that one of the main reasons that the NFL is -- far and away -- the new American pastime is because it is the only major league that institutes a hard cap, making it impossible for players to dictate where they play or to load one squad up with all of the best FAs.

What has happened in the past in this league is completely irrelevant, because this isn't something that has happened before. No two players that were arguably Nos. 1 and 2 in the NBA have joined the same team while both were entering their respective primes in a FA market.

It hasn't happened, so all of your grasping at the past to demonstrate how this isn't out of the ordinary is futile. It didn't happen that way with Bird/McHale/Parish, Magic/Worthy/Kareem, MJ/Pip, Dream, Kobe/Shaq, etc.

Now, we are looking at another situation with Stoudemire/Williams/Melo... Yet another unheard of situation with these young, great franchise players in their primes.

Maybe you don't care how teams are formed and being able to watch a team grow together, from the ground up, but most sports fans that I talk to do care... And they are growing wary of this whole super-team ridiculousness.

[tpols]

You can't hate on the Miami trio. They saw an opportunity to play together and they took it. They gave up money; they gave up being the man; they gave up the limelight... how can you fault them? The only poor decision in all of this was their pep rally after the fact.
Dude..:facepalm




:oldlol:

[alenleomessi]

All the fun is in NY :confusedshrug:

[csklmf]

why don't we just cut the league down to 15 teams, so all these guys can team up. :facepalm

Exactly. Cutable teams:
Cavs, Clippers, Hornets, Bucks, Twolves

[Snoop_Cat]

lol.

[El Kabong]

Might as well trade him now. I can't be bothered going through some sort of Melo type drama again next year.

[poster]

are u freaking kidding me? #nbahasgonewack

[Clutch]

**** Melo,bring D-Will to the Big Apple.

[ginobli2311]

...and I've stated time and again that great franchises remaining great due to great draft classes and superior ownership making the right moves at the right time is wholly different from franchise players conspiring to join the same handful of teams. I've also said that this is the reason for the decline of MLB and, further, I would also assert that one of the main reasons that the NFL is -- far and away -- the new American pastime is because it is the only major league that institutes a hard cap, making it impossible for players to dictate where they play or to load one squad up with all of the best FAs.

What has happened in the past in this league is completely irrelevant, because this isn't something that has happened before. No two players that were arguably Nos. 1 and 2 in the NBA have joined the same team while both were entering their respective primes in a FA market.

It hasn't happened, so all of your grasping at the past to demonstrate how this isn't out of the ordinary is futile. It didn't happen that way with Bird/McHale/Parish, Magic/Worthy/Kareem, MJ/Pip, Dream, Kobe/Shaq, etc.

Now, we are looking at another situation with Stoudemire/Williams/Melo... Yet another unheard of situation with these young, great franchise players in their primes.

Maybe you don't care how teams are formed and being able to watch a team grow together, from the ground up, but most sports fans that I talk to do care... And they are growing wary of this whole super-team ridiculousness.

in a perfect world what you say is true.

but you know what i hate more than teams getting formed like this?

elite all time great players wasting half or more of their careers in crappy situations. so i'd rather watch williams/melo/amare play on the knicks than have them wast their careers on average teams.

it sucks, but that is the nature of the nba. and i'd rather have 5 to 6 super teams than 2 super teams. i don't really see how its ok because players want to go to the lakers.....its easy to get free agents and they have unlimited money. the cavs don't. the jazz don't. its much harder for them to grow a team like you said.

and that is the problem with all of your assertions....it assumes that its a level playing field. and its far from it.

so again. what you hate is the way the nba is. but its nothing new. 30 years and its been dominated by 4 teams really. so LOL at this idea that its going to hurt competitive balance.....the balance of the nba is already a joke.

a hard cap what solve some of these problems but not all of them. the reason the nfl is so popular is mainly fantasy football. then its popular because many teams can have a great run and make the playoffs and win games. this is not true with the nba and will never happen because of the nature of the sport.

lastly, you continue to harp on there being a limited number of good teams. so what? how is this new? its not. if all this stuff went down, you'd see many more legit contending teams than you have over the last decade.

but whatever. keep living in fantasy land in which there weren't trades or moves forced in the past and that teams are on a level playing field and its lebron's fault he got drafted by the cavs and not the lakers.

[ILLsmak]

The idea that every good/great player in the league is entitled to play on a great team is what is going to kill this league. Does Williams share no responsibility in whether or not Utah is an elite team? What happened to guys earning their stripes through lifting their franchise to the next level instead of fleeing at the first sign of trouble and trying to find the easiest possible path?

Really? Cuz I don't see it like that at all. It also doesn't compare to Kobe or LeBron because, for one, LeBron is gonna get talent around him just because he was LeBron. Kobe or someone else is gonna get talent because they are in a big market.

Deron has watched what little team he had waste away. Look at what they've got now. They were never a contender, but they were a good team. Now they are barely staying afloat. And it was all Deron. The proof is that Deron is struggling and now they can't win a game.

And keep in mind that when Deron re-upped... he was basically saying, "I'll stick with you guys even though I know I'll never win a ring." He's a competitor but everyone in the world knows the Jazz aren't gonna go deep in the playoffs. So, now he's fed up. He's spoken out before about how management hasn't surrounded him with good players. He's not asking for all star teammates (Although, of course, that would be nice...) how about some players who can play the roles required of them in the offense?

The Jazz have no shooters, routinely get killed on the boards, and play very little interior defense... everyone was pissy about the situation and, honestly, looks like Sloan cracked first. And now Deron is the one left holding the bag.

-Smak

[ginobli2311]

Really? Cuz I don't see it like that at all. It also doesn't compare to Kobe or LeBron because, for one, LeBron is gonna get talent around him just because he was LeBron. Kobe or someone else is gonna get talent because they are in a big market.

Deron has watched what little team he had waste away. Look at what they've got now. They were never a contender, but they were a good team. Now they are barely staying afloat. And it was all Deron. The proof is that Deron is struggling and now they can't win a game.

And keep in mind that when Deron re-upped... he was basically saying, "I'll stick with you guys even though I know I'll never win a ring." He's a competitor but everyone in the world knows the Jazz aren't gonna go deep in the playoffs. So, now he's fed up. He's spoken out before about how management hasn't surrounded him with good players. He's not asking for all star teammates (Although, of course, that would be nice...) how about some players who can play the roles required of them in the offense?

The Jazz have no shooters, routinely get killed on the boards, and play very little interior defense... everyone was pissy about the situation and, honestly, looks like Sloan cracked first. And now Deron is the one left holding the bag.

-Smak

yea.

here is the other problem with saying that other squads weren't formed that way and that not every player is entitled to a good team.

he is basically saying that winning titles then is purely luck....because deron williams has not had 1 chance to win a title in his career really. kg never had a legit chance to win a title in minny. maybe 1 if cassell doesn't get hurt, but guess what? he did.

so that is the dumbest notion i've ever heard. that players shouldn't be allowed to win titles because they shouldn't be entitled to anything.

so great. lets just have luck determine how these players go down in history. forget deciding it on the court. lets just make a rule that deron williams and players like him don't deserve to have chances at winning titles because they aren't entitled to it.

sorry, that is the single dumbest notion i've heard on here in a long time.

[blablabla]

this is going to be legen wait for it dary LEGENDARY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqf1BmN4Dag

[Doranku]

It's funny, the creation of these Super Teams isn't going to change anything. There will always be a couple teams who are built better than the rest with better players. The disadvantage that guys like Deron have now which ginobli keeps crying about will be prevalent even when these dudes collaborate with other great players like Melo, Amare, etc.

There will always be a #1 team because there will always be great players in the league. It's hilarious, ginobli's argument is comparable to that of an 8 year old child who is a poor sport. "Waaaaaaah, I keep losing, but it has nothing to do with the fact that you're better than me. You're just cheating!!!" :cry:

[ginobli2311]

It's funny, the creation of these Super Teams isn't going to change anything. There will always be a couple teams who are built better than the rest with better players. The disadvantage that guys like Deron have now which ginobli keeps crying about will be prevalent even when these dudes collaborate with other great players like Melo, Amare, etc.

There will always be a #1 team because there will always be great players in the league. It's hilarious, ginobli's argument is comparable to that of an 8 year old child who is a poor sport. "Waaaaaaah, I keep losing, but it has nothing to do with the fact that you're better than me. You're just cheating!!!" :cry:

actually its the opposite.

i hear a lot of crying from everyone about the creation of these new teams. so of course doranku can't help himself. just another absurd post that makes no sense.

the people you are supporting are the ones crying about "superteams" saying its unfair and its ruining the nba. not me. i just want there to be a level playing field for teams and players.

its unfair for a guy like deron to have to play for a franchise with very little chance to win titles.

are you saying that deron or lebron aren't good enough to play on championship teams?

of course lakers fans will be against this.....its exactly what the lakers have done since 1980. you didn't draft shaq. you didn't draft kareem. magic only came to the lakers because of kareem. and kobe pretty much refused to go to the nets because he wanted to play in LA.

and you didn't draft gasol.

so of course lakers fans will come on here and spew bs about how they didn't create teams over night (which they did) and try to cry about how this is unfair....blah blah blah.

the fact that you people can't admit that winning a title in cleveland or utah or new orleans is significantly harder than winning in LA or Boston just shows how far gone you all are.

and what were lakers fans moaning about after shaq left? about how kobe didn't have enough help. funny how that works isn't it.

lets take a look at the payrolls of some teams shall we:

lakers: 91.5 million
celtics: 83.7 million
miami: 65 million
jazz: 75 million
mavs: 88 million
cavs: 51 million
twolves: 45 million

Yep. its fair and balanced. what was i thinking. kevin love is a failure if he can't win titles in minny. same with any cavs player. they have as good of a chance to win titles as anyone. funny how that money thing works isn't it?

[blablabla]

lol @ginoblixxxx

you talkin about the cavs and the twolves but not about the mavs 88million this is insane for a team that hasn't won anything

and superteams aren't anything new
you guys forgot about wilt,west,baylor kareem,magic,worthy bird,mchale,parish, rodman,jordan,pippen or russels celtics havlicek,jones and howell 3 20point scores

[lilWesleyJ4]

So he will be the back up behind CP3?

[kumquat]

I hope more big name players do team up and it forces stern to cut shitty franchises. The league is too watered down.

[Sarcastic]

Good for him. The Knicks haven't won a title in close to 40 years now. If he is able to lead them to a title one day, he will be considered a god in NY.

[Funnyfuka]

why don't we just cut the league down to 15 teams, so all these guys can team up. :facepalm

well it would be more interesting. Big need for a contraction.

[PowerGlove]

I dont understand why people get super offended and carry on...this is the way the NBA was.

[heyhey]

Dwill is so damn overrated. I seen this cat get light up by basically anyone with a pulse this year. he ran his coach out of town and is about to lead a team to nowhere.

so much hype for a guy who's accomplished SH!T his entire career.

worst haircut in the league

met him once when I was living in illinois, kid's got a real attitude.

[ginobli2311]

lol @ginoblixxxx

you talkin about the cavs and the twolves but not about the mavs 88million this is insane for a team that hasn't won anything

and superteams aren't anything new
you guys forgot about wilt,west,baylor kareem,magic,worthy bird,mchale,parish, rodman,jordan,pippen or russels celtics havlicek,jones and howell 3 20point scores


the mavs have won over 50 games for 11 straight years now i think. i think that is a pretty good indication of how much of an impact an owner willing to spend can make.

titles will always be extremely hard to come by in the nba.....its the chance to win that these players want. thats the point. only a handful of teams at most each year have a chance to win.

then guys like us turn around and hammer careers like cp3 or melo or dwill for not ever winning anything.

so we can't have it both ways. we can't judge them on rings and then hate on them when they want to take their future into their own hands and give themselves the opportunity to compete for titles.

like i said before. if we want guys to be loyal and not leave. then we might as well throw rings out the window when discussing players because very few players are fortunate enough to play on a top team in the league more than a couple times in their entire careers.

[Nets fan 93]

Didn't Tony Parker recently say that too?

[crisoner]

lol @ginoblixxxx

you talkin about the cavs and the twolves but not about the mavs 88million this is insane for a team that hasn't won anything

and superteams aren't anything new
you guys forgot about wilt,west,baylor kareem,magic,worthy bird,mchale,parish, rodman,jordan,pippen or russels celtics havlicek,jones and howell 3 20point scores
This

And funny how he left a small market team like the Spurs out of the convo. U know the other franchise that has been racking up titles this past decade besides the Lakers.

But see....how the LeBron decision effect is about to ruin competition in the NBA. Great job LeFraud.

[redsoxballer]

D-will, Amare, and Melo? :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Clutch]

Dwill is so damn overrated. I seen this cat get light up by basically anyone with a pulse this year. he ran his coach out of town and is about to lead a team to nowhere.

so much hype for a guy who's accomplished SH!T his entire career.

worst haircut in the league

met him once when I was living in illinois, kid's got a real attitude.
I want that "overrated" player on my team.

[bluechox2]

give me dwill and paul

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Deron gets his coach fired and now wants to bail.............................................. .....

[bluechox2]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Deron gets his coach fired and now wants to bail.............................................. .....
:lol

[rezznor]

NBA needs a franchise tag.

[Funnyfuka]

one thing is sure you all guys wouldnt have much to say if these events didnt happen. Seems like it gives you something to say. Pages and pages of pure non sense.

[Rekindled]

NBA needs a franchise tag.

why. small market teams in the finals are a sure way to get the league killed. see spurs-cavs final.

[Sarcastic]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Deron gets his coach fired and now wants to bail.............................................. .....

Sloan quit because he knew Deron was gone in 2012 anyway. There was no point in continuing with that team and rebuilding again at his age.

[Clutch]

I don't blame players and I don't want a franchise tag or something like that.

Many of them tried to win but they didn't succeed.
Why to waste whole career playing for a mediocre team (CP3,D-Will) ?

Everyone wants to win.
Their teams don't own them,players doesn't need to stay whole career in teams that drafted them.

We will always have good and bad teams.
It's like that in every sport.
You can't expect to have 20 title contenders.

[jasonresno]

Deron/Amare/Melo would be ridiculous.

[Orlando Magic]

Am I the only one that thinks that Deron will suddenly become fat and out of shape one day while still in the league?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Sloan quit because he knew Deron was gone in 2012 anyway. There was no point in continuing with that team and rebuilding again at his age.
:rolleyes: your being Sarcastic right?

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Am I the only one that thinks that Deron will suddenly become fat and out of shape one day while still in the league?

you mad he isnt going to Orlando?:lol :lol

[jasonresno]

Am I the only one that thinks that Deron will suddenly become fat and out of shape one day while still in the league?
Probably.

[ashbelly]

Am I the only one that thinks that Deron will suddenly become fat and out of shape one day while still in the league?


if he goes to new york, then i can see it happening. Melo will out of shape in a couple of years if he's traded to New york.

[heyhey]

if he goes to new york, then i can see it happening. Melo will out of shape in a couple of years if he's traded to New york.

you can tell that both Melo and DWill have that fat gene ala Barkley or World be free, as soon as they stop working out, watch out Taco Bell

[All Net]

Talk is cheap at this stage. No doubt Deron will leave utah though.

[bluechox2]

i think chris paul would better complement amare/melo but health issues with his knee might make me want deron

[Clutch]

i think chris paul would better complement amare/melo
Maybe if he is healthy.

But I would rather take D-Will,he doesn't have problems with injuries like CP3 does.

[ZenMaster]

if he goes to new york, then i can see it happening. Melo will out of shape in a couple of years if he's traded to New york.

Why's that?

D'Antoni has a history of having his players that are very fit.

[ashbelly]

Why's that?

D'Antoni has a history of having his players that are very fit.


:oldlol: :oldlol: Players go to new york and get fat/lazy.. Qrich/marbury/eddie curry/

[Sarcastic]

:rolleyes: your being Sarcastic right?

No.

You're being naive, right?

[ZenMaster]

:oldlol: :oldlol: Players go to new york and get fat/lazy.. Qrich/marbury/eddie curry/

Yeah that's before D'Antoni.

Now you can go to NY and get fat, but you won't play. You even mention Curry yourself.

[Samurai Swoosh]

'the decision': the beginning of the end for the nba
You still have 3 superstars who want to be their own man ... and do it the challenging way.

Derrick Rose

Kobe Bryant

Kevin Durant

[NuggetsFan]

You still have 3 superstars who want to be their own man ... and do it the challenging way.

Derrick Rose

Kobe Bryant

Kevin Durant

Kobe had Shaq and 3peated. Almost forced himself out of L.A and than got Gasol. Rose\Durant haven't been around as long as the other guy's and in that team both have had good teams already built around them. D-Will wouldn't be leaving Utah if they had Boozer\Noah\Deng. Durant's already got a solid team and a better second option than basically every guy who's leaving there team.

Not to mention Chicago\L.A are both huge markets.

Bad examples IMO.

[EleganceD]

Deron gets his coach fired, and then he wants to play for another team. :lol

Well, at least he can get MDA fired. :oldlol:

[32jazz]

I don't blame Deron for wanting to get out of Utah - his reputation is the guy that ran out Jerry Sloan right now

That's complete BS.

Magic Johnson was blamed for running Paul Westhead out of town with the Lakers & even booed by Lakers fans immediately afterwards.

Magic now has a statue outside the Staples center & everything worked out ok.



Unlike Lebron, Deron, Melo, Bosh , C Paul, etc..... Magic hung in their through some rough times & made the best of his situation.

[RedBlackAttack]

lakers: 91.5 million
celtics: 83.7 million
miami: 65 million
jazz: 75 million
mavs: 88 million
cavs: 51 million
twolves: 45 million

Yep. its fair and balanced. what was i thinking. kevin love is a failure if he can't win titles in minny. same with any cavs player. they have as good of a chance to win titles as anyone. funny how that money thing works isn't it?
What a horrendous argument this is. The Cavs' payroll in 2008-09 was $90.1 million, which was 2nd in the NBA behind only the Knicks ($100 million). The Celtics were 5th in the league ($80.3 million) and the Lakers were 6th ($78 million)... Also behind Portland and Dallas.

In 2009-10, the Cavaliers were 4th in the league at $79.9 million, a staggering $3 million behind Boston and $12 million behind league-leader LA.

Guess who was 2nd in the league that season? Utah.

The reason why Cleveland dropped off this year should be relatively obvious. They lost James, Shaq, Delonte and Z and didn't replace them with large contracts. But, yeah... Let's use this season as a barometer to show how the Cavaliers were incapable of competing, money-wise.

[oldschool4ever]

What a horrendous argument this is. The Cavs' payroll in 2008-09 was $90.1 million, which was 2nd in the NBA behind only the Knicks ($100 million). The Celtics were 5th in the league ($80.3 million) and the Lakers were 6th ($78 million)... Behind Portland and Dallas.

In 2009-10, the Cavaliers were 4th in the league at $79.9 million, a staggering $3 million behind Boston and $12 million behind league-leader LA.

Guess who was 2nd in the league that season? Utah.

The reason why Cleveland dropped off this year should be relatively obvious. They lost James, Shaq, Delonte and Z and didn't replace them with large contracts. But, yeah... Let's use this season as a barometer to show how the Cavaliers were incapable of competing, money-wise.


this. spending money wisely is the key, otherwise cuban would have won a championship already.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Bad examples IMO.
What you described is verbatim a perfect example of Kobe wanting to do it on his own as the alpha dog.

He helped pushed out one of the game's most dominant players of all time, in order to win with himself as the front runner and leader of the team.

That's the very definition of the metality I'm talking about.

Derrick Rose, as it has come to light post summer free agency, really didn't campaign hard to get James or Wade in a Bulls uniform. Then came the "why can't I be MVP" quote ... he never really wanted them there.

He wanted to prove HIMSELF.

Everyone needs a second fiddle to win, but these players want to be THAT GUY.

[Doranku]

What a horrendous argument this is. The Cavs' payroll in 2008-09 was $90.1 million, which was 2nd in the NBA behind only the Knicks ($100 million). The Celtics were 5th in the league ($80.3 million) and the Lakers were 6th ($78 million)... Also behind Portland and Dallas.

In 2009-10, the Cavaliers were 4th in the league at $79.9 million, a staggering $3 million behind Boston and $12 million behind league-leader LA.

Guess who was 2nd in the league that season? Utah.

The reason why Cleveland dropped off this year should be relatively obvious. They lost James, Shaq, Delonte and Z and didn't replace them with large contracts. But, yeah... Let's use this season as a barometer to show how the Cavaliers were incapable of competing, money-wise.

ginobli called out on his BS again. What a surprise. :lol

So what's the Mavs excuse for not winning a title with their gigantic payroll?

[gilalizard]

If there are to be only 4-6 teams that legitimately contend for a championship, then just shrink the league to that number of teams. Watching legit contenders beat up on cans throughout the regular season and playoffs is just *********ion then.

If there is to be no legit competition from 24-26 of the other teams, why even have them? It basically becomes professional wrestling.

Scrap them. Have a league of 4-6 teams where the best players don't "waste" their careers.

That's the logic of supporting superteams. And yes, Miami has taken it to another level. This is not happening in a vacuum of a single year. Miami is going to collect far better roleplayers, while keeping Wade, LBJ and Bosh. They are going to become far MORE stacked than they are now.

So, by the logic of those who say it's good for the game, just scrap the other 26 teams who can't legitimately contend. Stack all the best players on 4 teams to showcase their talent and not "waste" their careers. And don't go through the kabuki of them playing teams that have no possibility of actually winning anything.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Throw in Howard too.

PG: Paul
SG: Williams
SF: Carmelo
PF: Stoudemire
C: Dwight Howard

Big 5 anyone?

WE DA BESSTESS

lol... good luck finding the cap room for that team.

[RedBlackAttack]

lol... good luck finding the cap room for that team.
Sadly, with the way things are going, that lineup isn't as completely ridiculous as it once may have been... Except for DWill playing the 2-spot. I don't see that happening.

[Kblaze8855]

One might figure that as a Bulls fan id have a problem with some of these star lineups standing in the way in the east but really....ive never been a play on rookie mode type. If we have to duck anyone or cant play great teams to win...what is there to be proud of? Id like nothing better than the Knicks to get Deron or Paul on top of Melo and Amare and lose to the Bulls anyway. Take it back to the 90s. No matter how loaded the Knicks are....they dont win.

A superstar Knicks squad vs a 58-59 win Bulls team with Noah back and Rose going hard? Great storyline...great history...and I suspect great basketball. Id watch every game and probably download/burn them for watching again later.

[creamanshrimp]

Imagine punching somebody so hard they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger your punch, the better the door. So their are like super stronger murderers that punch people into venetian doors and shit

[chips93]

What you described is verbatim a perfect example of Kobe wanting to do it on his own as the alpha dog.

He helped pushed out one of the game's most dominant players of all time, in order to win with himself as the front runner and leader of the team.

That's the very definition of the metality I'm talking about.

Derrick Rose, as it has come to light post summer free agency, really didn't campaign hard to get James or Wade in a Bulls uniform. Then came the "why can't I be MVP" quote ... he never really wanted them there.

He wanted to prove HIMSELF.

Everyone needs a second fiddle to win, but these players want to be THAT GUY.

you still ignored the fact that kobe requested a trade, and with rose, your making big assumptions that he didnt want wade or lebron

[bagelred]

Take it back to the 90s. No matter how loaded the Knicks are....they dont win.



Um....yeah.....about that......when were we ever "loaded". It was Patrick Ewing and a bunch of role players.

[Scoooter]

Ewing/Rodman/Pippen. That would have been fun.

[chips93]

What you described is verbatim a perfect example of Kobe wanting to do it on his own as the alpha dog.

He helped pushed out one of the game's most dominant players of all time, in order to win with himself as the front runner and leader of the team.

That's the very definition of the metality I'm talking about.

Derrick Rose, as it has come to light post summer free agency, really didn't campaign hard to get James or Wade in a Bulls uniform. Then came the "why can't I be MVP" quote ... he never really wanted them there.

He wanted to prove HIMSELF.

Everyone needs a second fiddle to win, but these players want to be THAT GUY.

you still ignored the fact that kobe requested a trade, and with rose, your making big assumptions that he didnt want wade or lebron

[Kblaze8855]

Um....yeah.....about that......when were we ever "loaded". It was Patrick Ewing and a bunch of role players.

Knicks fans around me didnt seem to agree. Lasted right up until like 2001 or 2002. I still remember people talking about how Marcus Camby was gonna do this or that....

He had a good run there with Ewing hurt but...eh.

[RedBlackAttack]

Knicks fans around me didnt seem to agree. Lasted right up until like 2001 or 2002. I still remember people talking about how Marcus Camby was gonna do this or that....

He had a good run there with Ewing hurt but...eh.
Those Knicks teams of the 90s had one franchise caliber player... Patrick Ewing.

I don't really see how that compares to a team of James/Wade/Bosh or Williams/Melo/Stoudemire. The Knicks built a nice team in the traditional manner... Start with a dominant player (Ewing) and add complimentary pieces around him.

These current squads are just mashups of multiple franchise players already in the primes of their careers deciding to play together. Regardless of what Knicks fans may have said about their teams, they weren't built in that manner with those kinds of players.

The AAU-ification of the sport is underway.

[Knicksfever2010]

Those Knicks teams of the 90s had one franchise caliber player... Patrick Ewing.

I don't really see how that compares to a team of James/Wade/Bosh or Williams/Melo/Stoudemire. The Knicks built a nice team in the traditional manner... Start with a dominant player (Ewing) and add complimentary pieces around him.

These current squads are just mashups of multiple franchise players already in the primes of their careers deciding to play together. Regardless of what Knicks fans may have said about their teams, they weren't built in that manner with those kinds of players.

The AAU-ification of the sport is underway.

part of the problem is so few quality players in the draft, not to mention the money situation is VERY different

[RedBlackAttack]

part of the problem is so few quality players in the draft, not to mention the money situation is VERY different
The money issue is different. There is no denying that... Which is why I'm really pushing for a hard cap.

The weak drafts, though, I disagree with. I bet if you were to compare the average draft in the 00s with the average draft in the 90s, you would have virtually the same number of great players, good players, average players and busts.

What has changed, from what I can tell, is the attitudes of these guys and all of the good players believing that they are entitled to playing on great teams... Bolting at the first sign of trouble (sometimes, before there is any trouble).

[Kblaze8855]

Those Knicks teams of the 90s had one franchise caliber player... Patrick Ewing.

I don't really see how that compares to a team of James/Wade/Bosh or Williams/Melo/Stoudemire. The Knicks built a nice team in the traditional manner... Start with a dominant player (Ewing) and add complimentary pieces around him.

These current squads are just mashups of multiple franchise players already in the primes of their careers deciding to play together. Regardless of what Knicks fans may have said about their teams, they weren't built in that manner with those kinds of players.

The AAU-ification of the sport is underway.

I didnt say the Knicks had multiple franchise players. I said it would be fun to see them get loaded up...Knicks fans hyped like in the old days...then get beat by the Bulls again.

I dont care that much about the rest. Said my bit. I have no fear of loaded teams. At all. Im looking for good basketball. The **** do I care if some random team loses a guy they have no real right to keep?

A guy just deciding mid contract to force a trade? Bugs me a bit. Kinda like in the NFL a team signs a guy...and just decides not to live up to it. Bugs me a little.

But just deciding where to go when you are a free agent? Minor shit to complain about. To me at least. Its nothing I see reason to really get upset about. Grown man can work where he chooses. A guy like Melo I think is probably doing the right thing. If I owned a team id rather him just make it obvious he wont resign than to make it a 3 year guessign game. Nuggets might walk away with half of a future. Cavs and Raptors got nothing.

Deron and Utah? Way too early to say. But im not gonna make him out to be a dick for suggesting he might wanna go to the Knicks. Ive heard rumors of people wanting to be a Knick all my life.

I remember when people were saying Shaq would go to the Knicks.

In fact I think its why Don Nelson was fired. Suggested trading Patrick for cap room to sign Shaq...divided the team and all.

Whatever. None of my business where another man wants to work. Its not gonna hurt the game. Not gonna make the league crumble. Thats just hyperbole and making something out of nothing. Its just gonna result in crazy talented playoff matchups and a lot of hype.

Im not worried. I'll put the Bulls against anyone and I dont think we go down easy. Be a good watch and we might win. Vs anyone. Not worried about anyone else.

[d.bball.guy]

He's gonna take his talents to the Big Apple.

[RedBlackAttack]

No offense, but I'm not reading all of that. I'm all for having well thought-out posts, but there are also occasions which call for being concise.

This happens to be one of them.

[ginobli2311]

No offense, but I'm not reading all of that. I'm all for having well thought-out posts, but there are also occasions which call for being concise.

This happens to be one of them.

basically it boils down to this.

1. your assertion that the nba is going to be ruined by "super teams" is simply not true. the last 30 years have been dominated by really 4 teams (24 titles) or 6 teams (29 titles).

so i don't understand why you keep talking about how this will ruin the nba's competitive balance.

2. your entitlement theory also doesn't make sense. why should only a select few players be "entitled" to win titles? why would you rather have luck of the draw determine which players have great circumstances?

i ask again because you never answered (or i missed it). knowing what you know now....would you be in favor of KG sticking around minny more than 5 or 6 years?

3. These players have the right to say where they want to play and then choose where they want to play. They have virtually no control over their teams throughout their entire careers. Why shouldn't they take their future into their own hands when often times franchises fail them miserably (see KG in minny)

4. I brought up money to show that generally the teams that spend more do better. That is all. But some teams do it better. Like you said, and that is essentially my point. Whether you agree that the cavs didn't do a good job building around lebron is a separate argument. However, we can all agree that the lakers put more around kobe from 07 to the present than the cavs did. So again....that is my point. Sometimes these players must take it on themselves to make sure they get a great team around them.

5. I agree. It sucks for some fans, but its also great for some fans. And its better for casual fans of the league. Casual fans don't want to see kg or lebron surrounded by good but not great talent. They don't want to see great players losing in the first round to stacked teams. Superteams have always been a part of the league. Great players have always wanted to play with great players. They are just more open about it now.

[ginobli2311]

tpols. here is a look at the last 20 or so years of nba titles. kind if refutes your point that a superstar doesn't need a 2nd option:

Championship teams with multiple all nba players in recent years:


92: MJ and Pippen

93: MJ and Pippen

95: Hakeem and Drexler

96: MJ and Pippen

97: MJ and Pippen

98: MJ and Pippen

00: Shaq and Kobe

01: Shaq and Kobe

02: Shaq and Kobe

06: Wade and Shaq

08: KG and Pierce

09: Kobe and Gasol

10: Kobe and Gasol

Really interesting. Duncan/MJ/Hakeem are the only superstars to win a title without having an all-nba teammate. Duncan did it in 99 and 03 and 05 and 07. MJ did it in 91 and Hakeem did it in 94.

so only jordan/hakeem/duncan are the superstars to win a title without a great 2nd option. hakeem and duncan are post players and they provide certain things that make this easier. so then we have only 1 title in the last 20 years won by a perimeter superstar without another all-nba player.

i don't think they did three teams in the 80's...but magic/kareem and bird/mchale/parrish/archibald and moses/dr.j would be all over these lists.

so really since 1980 only three superstars have won without another all-nba player or an elite 2nd option. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

so why again do you think the idea that superstars need a 2nd option is..."bullshit"....to use your words???????? does this not prove otherwise? waiting for your response.

LOL

[joshwake]

Clearly none of you actually read the twitter feed....

[Kblaze8855]

No offense, but I'm not reading all of that. I'm all for having well thought-out posts, but there are also occasions which call for being concise.

This happens to be one of them.

Wasnt exactly even an argument. Mostly because I wasnt talking to you to begin with. You seemed to have misunderstood and came in with the...Ewing thing. I explained that and was then just kinda thinking out loud(no better way to put it) about how people are always rumored to go to the Knicks then never do.

Besides "Im not reading that" have to be the most pointless kind of posts. Really. What is the purpose of them? You take the time to let someone know...you arent taking the time to read something? Hit reply just to tell me that even though you wrote two paragraphs responding to me writing 4 lines...when I wasnt talking to you to begin with...when I explain the misunderstanding you arent gonna read it?

What good could come of it? After 10 years here im gonna learn my lesson and not explain myself when someone isnt understanding what I meant and felt a need to say something about it?

[ginobli2311]

Wasnt exactly even an argument. Mostly because I wasnt talking to you to begin with. You seemed to have misunderstood and came in with the...Ewing thing. I explained that and was then just kinda thinking out loud(no better way to put it) about how people are always rumored to go to the Knicks then never do.

Besides "Im not reading that" have to be the most pointless kind of posts. Really. What is the purpose of them? You take the time to let someone know...you arent taking the time to read something? Hit reply just to tell me that even though you wrote two paragraphs responding to me writing 4 lines...when I wasnt talking to you to begin with...when I explain the misunderstanding you arent gonna read it?

What good could come of it? After 10 years here im gonna learn my lesson and not explain myself when someone isnt understanding what I meant and felt a need to say something about it?

he might have been talking to me kblaze. i wrote a long post and then i deleted it after he told me he wasn't going to read it.

[Kblaze8855]

Ill assume you are right. My reply wasnt long enough for a usual "Im not reading all that" thing. *goes back to last nights family guy*

[ginobli2311]

bump.

tpols.

do you still think that having a legit 2nd option is "total bullshit" (your words)?

please respond.

[tpols]

bump.

tpols.

do you still think that having a legit 2nd option is "total bullshit" (your words)?

please respond.
What?

Listen, my argument wasn't that having a legit second option was not a sufficient condition for winning rings. Of course if you have two great players playing off of each other, that is a recipe for success. But it is not the ONLY recipe for success. There is another sufficient condition for winning a championship other than having two elite players and that is having an elite TEAM.

In the past decade alone we have seen the jason kidd led nets, the allen iverson led sixers, the early 00s kings and blazers, the dirk led mavs, etc.(all I can think of right now) be elite teams and compete with all of the best teams in the league as well as come very close to getting rings.

The two most dominant teams in the eastern conference from the early 2000s to the late-mid 2000s were the New Jersey Nets and the Detroit Pistons, and NIETHER had anything close to resembling a good second option.

We've also seen Tim Duncan's spurs win multiple times with different 'second options' showing up in each series(sometimes manu took over and sometimes parker did, but there was no elite second banana on those teams who have won FOUR championships in the past decade)..

Hell, RIGHT NOW, the two top teams in the league don't have a player on their roster that's even close to being an 'elite' player. They are full of smart veteran players that know the game, know the system, are very experienced, and they have great depth and great coaching. But no superstars.. and they are the two top title contenders right now..

Great coaching+experience+chemistry+fit+depth is just as much a sufficient condition for winning as extremely talented player 1 + extremely talented player 2.. and this has been proven with all of the recent examples I just showed you. You can be in the competition for rings in this league without having 2 great players.. as long as you have enough of the core team elements in place.

That is why these guys jumping ship now thinking 'oh once I join so and so it will be cake' are just dead wrong. Just look at miami's expectations at the beginning of the season. People were overrating the SHIT out of them because they thought extremely talented player 1 + extremely talented player 2 + allstar equaled an all time great team(70 wins lol). It doesn't. There's more to it than that and these guys are underrating what they really need to win and overrating how good they think they will be when they play with all their friends.

[ginobli2311]

What?

Listen, my argument wasn't that having a legit second option was not a sufficient condition for winning rings. Of course if you have two great players playing off of each other, that is a recipe for success. But it is not the ONLY recipe for success. There is another sufficient condition for winning a championship other than having two elite players and that is having an elite TEAM.

In the past decade alone we have seen the jason kidd led nets, the allen iverson led sixers, the early 00s kings and blazers, the dirk led mavs, etc.(all I can think of right now) be elite teams and compete with all of the best teams in the league as well as come very close to getting rings.

The two most dominant teams in the eastern conference from the early 2000s to the late-mid 2000s were the New Jersey Nets and the Detroit Pistons, and NIETHER had anything close to resembling a good second option.

We've also seen Tim Duncan's spurs win multiple times with different 'second options' showing up in each series(sometimes manu took over and sometimes parker did, but there was no elite second banana on those teams who have won FOUR championships in the past decade)..

Hell, RIGHT NOW, the two top teams in the league don't have a player on their roster that's even close to being an 'elite' player. They are full of smart veteran players that know the game, know the system, are very experienced, and they have great depth and great coaching. But no superstars.. and they are the two top title contenders right now..

Great coaching+experience+chemistry+fit+depth is just as much a sufficient condition for winning as extremely talented player 1 + extremely talented player 2.. and this has been proven with all of the recent examples I just showed you. You can be in the competition for rings in this league without having 2 great players.. as long as you have enough of the core team elements in place.

That is why these guys jumping ship now thinking 'oh once I join so and so it will be cake' are just dead wrong. Just look at miami's expectations at the beginning of the season. People were overrating the SHIT out of them because they thought extremely talented player 1 + extremely talented player 2 + allstar equaled an all time great team(70 wins lol). It doesn't. There's more to it than that and these guys are underrating what they really need to win and overrating how good they think they will be when they play with all their friends.

ok. i agree with most of that. but those teams you listed did not win titles....and a big part of that was a lack of a legit 2nd option.

also, i am saying you need a legit 2nd option when you are building around a superstar. that is the difference you fail to comprehend.

yes, you can win titles by having a great team. last celtics of last year would have been a great example. the pistons in 04 are a great example. the pistons of 89 and 90 are more examples as thomas wasn't really a superstar anymore.

but if you have a superstar? unless that man's name is duncan/hakeem/jordan....its never been done in the last 30 years without another legit top 15 or better type player. and really duncan has had that in some form or another in robinson/manu/parker for every year other than 03.

so again. when building around a superstar is when you need that elite 2nd option. its the nature of the game and its just how it works.

so you can list off dirk and iverson and the nets all you want....BUT THEY DIDN'T WIN TITLES. and why? mainly because they didn't have that great 2nd guy. put paul pierce next to dirk and they win titles. put ray allen next to iverson and they win a title most likely. put prime tmac next to kidd and they win a title.

history proves that when you have a superstar, you need an all-nba type guy next to him almost always to win a title. certainly if that superstar is a perimeter player. even when jordan won without an all-nba pippen, but dominated in the playoffs and was easily one of the 15 best players in the league.

so you can twist it all you want. if you want to win a title and you have a superstar...you need an all-nba type guy almost always. and 100% of the time if that superstar is a perimeter player.

case closed.

as for the heat. they started off the season 9-8 and now they are going to win around 63 games. of course you need solid coaching and bench play as well. i'm just pointing out the simple fact that pretty much every title won by a superstar player has had the all-nba type guy in common. the great team only works if you don't have a clear cut superstar leading the way. so that really has no relevance in this conversation because a guy like kobe/bird/jordan/shaq/magic never won anything without that guy by their side.

[ginobli2311]

and just to be clear. we are talking about what it takes to win titles when building around a superstar. nothing else. lebron is a superstar. kobe is a superstar. shaq was a superstar. same with bird and magic.

so once again....all the things you reference about winning with a great team simply don't fit because we are talking about a superstar winning titles. and to put it simply.....what you are saying doesn't work when building around a superstar....history shows this.

[tpols]

as for the heat. they started off the season 9-8 and now they are going to win around 63 games. of course you need solid coaching and bench play as well. i'm just pointing out the simple fact that pretty much every title won by a superstar player has had the all-nba type guy in common. the great team only works if you don't have a clear cut superstar leading the way. so that really has no relevance in this conversation because a guy like kobe/bird/jordan/shaq/magic never won anything without that guy by their side.
They were still being massively overrated because everyone thought two superstars=legendary team.. it doesn't. The heat won't finish anywhere close to where they were expected to go at the beginning of the season and thats because people overrated that aspect of the game and underrated what it truly takes to be a good team.

And all I was pointing out was that in recent history(for when I have followed basketball) there have been very good teams that weren't just a collaboration of elite superstars. Detroit won a championship and dominated the east without that infrastructure. The spurs won multiple championships with great team efforts. The two best teams in the league RIGHT NOW have no elite top ten players on them.. as long as your team fulfills the core team elements that I listed earlier, they can win.. Think about this with relevance to the thread topic. It's absurd to think stockpiling talent alone will win championships. There's a lot more to the game..

And I'm done arguing this now.. my point from my original post was that these guys think they will have it easy when they join with other supposed superstars but it won't. Do you want me to pull up all the quotes from the summer like wade saying everytime the heat lose it will be like the towers falling again, lebron with his classic not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6 etc.? These 'superteams' are becoming massively overrated..

[ginobli2311]

They were still being massively overrated because everyone thought two superstars=legendary team.. it doesn't. The heat won't finish anywhere close to where they were expected to go at the beginning of the season and thats because people overrated that aspect of the game and underrated what it truly takes to be a good team.

And all I was pointing out was that in recent history(for when I have followed basketball) there have been very good teams that weren't just a collaboration of elite superstars. Detroit won a championship and dominated the east without that infrastructure. The spurs won multiple championships with great team efforts. The two best teams in the league RIGHT NOW have no elite top ten players on them.. as long as your team fulfills the core team elements that I listed earlier, they can win.. Think about this with relevance to the thread topic. It's absurd to think stockpiling talent alone will win championships. There's a lot more to the game..

And I'm done arguing this now.. my point from my original post was that these guys think they will have it easy when they join with other supposed superstars but it won't. Do you want me to pull up all the quotes from the summer like wade saying everytime the heat lose it will be like the towers falling again, lebron with his classic not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6 etc.? These 'superteams' are becoming massively overrated..

yea. you just can't grasp the facts.

great teams do win titles. the three pistons titles are a good example. the celtics last year would have been a good example if they had won. the spurs/celtics will be good examples this year.

but that is not what we are talking about. you said that a superstar doesn't need a legit 2nd option to win. and i completely destroyed that notion when looking at the last 30 years. every single title won by a superstar had an elite 2nd option by their side except duncan and hakeem. no perimeter player won a title.

so yea.....you need an elite all-nba type player next to your superstar almost always if you want to win. and every single time if that superstar is a perimeter player. its just a fact....and i showed you this.

but for some reason you can't acknowledge the last 30 years. but whatever. your assertion has sufficiently been proven false. and hell.....i'm only using all-nba teams as the criteria. which is an extremely high standard. we all know that parker/manu/robinson in some form or another added up to an elite 2nd option. manu was definitely elite in 05. parker was definitely elite in 07.

so i'm done as well. tpols proven wrong again. i love it.

[tpols]

yea. you just can't grasp the facts.

great teams do win titles. the three pistons titles are a good example. the celtics last year would have been a good example if they had won. the spurs/celtics will be good examples this year.

but that is not what we are talking about. you said that a superstar doesn't need a legit 2nd option to win. and i completely destroyed that notion when looking at the last 30 years. every single title won by a superstar had an elite 2nd option by their side except duncan and hakeem. no perimeter player won a title.

so yea.....you need an elite all-nba type player next to your superstar almost always if you want to win. and every single time if that superstar is a perimeter player. its just a fact....and i showed you this.

but for some reason you can't acknowledge the last 30 years. but whatever. your assertion has sufficiently been proven false. and hell.....i'm only using all-nba teams as the criteria. which is an extremely high standard. we all know that parker/manu/robinson in some form or another added up to an elite 2nd option. manu was definitely elite in 05. parker was definitely elite in 07.

so i'm done as well. tpols proven wrong again. i love it.
Wow dude.. you really don't understand what my point was at all do you? Just flew right over your head.. I wasn't arguing that second options are unnecessary. I even admitted that teams with two great players often win But the facts can't be denied that there have been multiple teams this decade to win without the two superstar structure you say EVERY team needs to win(meaning it is possible to win without that structure).

Overall, I was saying that players are overrating this second option notion and underrating the fact that they need a good overall team and coach too..

Keep acting like a child though. Whatever you need to write at the end of your posts to rationalize you 'winning' in something that I wasn't even debating.. lol

..and it's kind of wierd that you come back to this thread days later still looking for me to reply to one of your earlier posts that I just saw today. You need to learn to be less obsessive about this shit and just let things go. Was my post really on your mind this long?:oldlol: Take a break son..

[ginobli2311]

Wow dude.. you really don't understand what my point was at all do you? Just flew right over your head.. I wasn't arguing that second options are unnecessary. I even admitted that teams with two great players often win But the facts can't be denied that there have been multiple teams this decade to win without the two superstar structure you say EVERY team needs to win(meaning it is possible to win without that structure).

Overall, I was saying that players are overrating this second option notion and underrating the fact that they need a good overall team and coach too..

Keep acting like a child though. Whatever you need to write at the end of your posts to rationalize you 'winning' in something that I wasn't even debating.. lol

..and it's kind of wierd that you come back to this thread days later still looking for me to reply to one of your earlier posts that I just saw today. You need to learn to be less obsessive about this shit and just let things go. Was my post really on your mind this long?:oldlol: Take a break son..

wow....you still can't grasp what you said and my response.

2nd options are over-rated if you don't have a superstar. but if you have a superstar, you almost always need a 2nd option....in fact, history shows it might be the single most important aspect of winning a title as a superstar.

so how is it over-rated? when only 2 guys in the last 30 years have done it and both of them are sure fire top 10 players of all time and both are post players (making it far easier to win as they provide a lot of the things necessary to win themselves)

you got called out. deal with it. you said "superstars don't need a 2nd option...they need a great team"...and this isn't true. they need a 2nd option almost always and 100% of the time if the superstar is a perimeter player.

so you keep trying to shift focus......but it doesn't fit with your point. the fact remains that no perimeter player superstar has ever won a title with what lebron had in cleveland. and that was essentially what you were saying...that lebron had enough in cleveland...and again....i destroyed that notion.

unless of course your standards for lebron are to do something that hasn't been done in the last 30 years by a perimeter player. are those your standards for him?

[Bigsmoke]

false media

we dont need it do we?

[Sarcastic]

Wait, did Deron say "New York" or "Newark"? :confusedshrug:

[Draz]

Lol idc. Good for him. We got melo, melo amare billups is good. We never wanted him, when cp3 goes to anywhere but ny then we can be afraid.

[D12"Magic"]

Lol idc. Good for him. We got melo, melo amare billups is good. We never wanted him, when cp3 goes to anywhere but ny then we can be afraid.
Seriously :rolleyes: Typical Knick fan.

[niko]

Wait, did Deron say "New York" or "Newark"? :confusedshrug:
Brooklyn. SHHH....nets want it to be a secret they are in newark. They are in greater brooklyn.

[D12"Magic"]

Brooklyn. SHHH....nets want it to be a secret they are in newark. They are in greater brooklyn.
OMG I did not know that :eek: All this time I thought they were in brooklyn :hammerhead: I Feel dumb.