I really respect Dirk and Duncan now

[#1SportsFan86]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

[ginobli2311]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

yea.

it worked for duncan (mainly because he is one of the best ever)

but dirk's play has been easily good enough to win a couple titles in his career. he never had that legit squad or legit 2nd option. and how will most people define dirk's career? no titles and a playoff choker.

so it often doesn't work out.

[All Net]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

It helped that their front office supplied them with good players around them.

[matts290]

These guys definitely represent the phrase "class act". I am a big fan of guys like Kobe and LeBron for the exposure they bring to the sport, but there is no denying that they are divas. Guys like Dirk, Duncan, and Nash just play their game and keep their head down, and even though anyone of them has the talent and the accolades to be a loud mouth diva, they instead just stay quiet. I think the NBA needs stars like Dirk as well as stars like LeBron, it keeps things in perspective.

[ginobli2311]

It helped that their front office supplied them with good players around them.

yea. and this.

although deep down i bet dirk really wishes he got his paul pierce or ray allen or gasol.....so it goes both ways.

and this is my problem. we hammer dirk for not winning, but then praise his loyalty. but really it was his loyalty that prevented him from winning a couple of titles at least.

so its really tough and its why i don't mind this at all.

[moe94]

Dirk will go down as the greatest Euro player of all time. Who needs a title?

[Harison]

It helped that their front office supplied them with good players around them.

This. Also Duncan said he wanted out once, but since he got quality team, he stayed.

After last season I thought Dirk will want to sign somewhere else, but Cuban is pretty special owner, so I can understand why Dirk stayed. Its not like he played with scrubs either, Cuban really tries to make it work.

I was surprised about Nash, I really wanted him to win the ring before he retires, but it seemed he preferred loyalty over rings when he signed the last extension. Ironic thing is, it seems Suns may trade him instead to rebuild now :facepalm

In the contrast take for example Deron, first he clashes with the HOF coach who was with Jazz since forever, then says either he goes or Sloan, and after Sloan left (sacrificed by owner?), Deron leaked he will be leave Jazz anyway in a few years :banghead:

[kNIOKAS]

didn't they make playoffs all the time?
and being such "class act" should be considered a shameful thing. why? kg's years in minnesota is a shame.

[LJJ]

When did either of them have any reason to leave?

[Harison]

Dirk will go down as the greatest Euro player of all time. Who needs a title?
Great Euro player with the best NBA resume, its not the same as the greatest Euro player ever.

[Pursuer]

Exactly. KG is the one guy who suffered from this and never asked a trade until it was hopeless. Dirk and Duncan always were in organizations that were determined to win, unlike Minnesota. And that's what Kobe felt the Lakers were doing to him(what Minnesota was doing to KG) so that's why he was asking to be traded.

[strike]

erm when exactly were things not going well for mr Tim Duncan! hes been extremely blessed to be at the Spurs, (IMO the best run nba team in the league). He has never lacked supporting talent or coaching

[Sarcastic]

The best player Denver ever put next to Carmelo Anthony was a past prime Allen Iverson. Had they put a top quality player next to him, he never would have left.

Same goes for Lebron. Best player he ever got in Cleveland was Atawn Jamison, Mo Williams, and past prime Shaq.

[strike]

The best player Denver ever put next to Carmelo Anthony was a past prime Allen Iverson. Had they put a top quality player next to him, he never would have left.

Same goes for Lebron. Best player he ever got in Cleveland was Atawn Jamison, Mo Williams, and past prime Shaq.

its not that easy getting a top top player these days. especially one that is a good fit

[Nash-tastic]

yea. and this.

although deep down i bet dirk really wishes he got his paul pierce or ray allen or gasol.....so it goes both ways.

and this is my problem. we hammer dirk for not winning, but then praise his loyalty. but really it was his loyalty that prevented him from winning a couple of titles at least.

so its really tough and its why i don't mind this at all.
This is so true, I'm extremely grateful to watch Dirk in my lifetime as I feel he will be very underrated in the generations to come unless he wins a title

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The True Ballers:cheers:

[Nero Tulip]

This. Also Duncan said he wanted out once, but since he got quality team, he stayed.


When did that happen? Serious question, I'd want to know as I've never heard of that and he's my favourite player.

[JohnnySic]

2 things:

1.) Dirk and Duncan never had a reason to leave. The Spurs have been a contender since the day TD walked through the door - its an extremely well managed franchise and they draft exceptionally well. And Mark Cuban has always paid to buy a good team around Dirk. Why leave? You wanna give props to a guy lwho stuck it out, its Paul Pierce. :D

2.) the super-team is the new trend in the NBA. Just accept it. The Celtics kicked in the door and in walked the Heat, now the Knicks, and others will follow. Dont be surprised if Paul or Howard :eek: end up in NY as well.

[PleezeBelieve]

I must have missed the memo...

What have the Heat proven this year that the Cavs haven't done the last two years???

[#1SportsFan86]

2 things:

1.) Dirk and Duncan never had a reason to leave. The Spurs have been a contender since the day TD walked through the door - its an extremely well managed franchise and they draft exceptionally well. And Mark Cuban has always paid to buy a good team around Dirk. Why leave? You wanna give props to a guy lwho stuck it out, its Paul Pierce. :D

2.) the super-team is the new trend in the NBA. Just accept it. The Celtics kicked in the door and in walked the Heat, now the Knicks, and others will follow. Dont be surprised if Paul or Howard :eek: end up in NY as well.

:bowdown:

I can't believe I forgot about him

[Funnyfuka]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:they are just more loyal , family oriented , old school, than the young "i want it all and i want it now" spoiled kids/millionaires raised by single mothers -without fathers- we see today.

These guys know money doenst replace meaniginful relationships with long term teammates/friends and family. When the younger kids are oportunistic, materialistic hedonists who dont care much about anyone else but themselves...and their mothers.

[sundizz]

Great Euro player with the best NBA resume, its not the same as the greatest Euro player ever.

Please explain :confusedshrug:
.
He is the greatest Euro player? The NBA is still considered the best accolade on any athlete's resume right. He is the best/greatest ever European player

[SinJackal]

erm when exactly were things not going well for mr Tim Duncan! hes been extremely blessed to be at the Spurs, (IMO the best run nba team in the league). He has never lacked supporting talent or coaching

Let's not act like Duncan wasn't one of the main reasons the Spurs have been contending for titles. No Duncan = no titles.

[dirkdiggler41]

:bowdown:

I can't believe I forgot about him

Did'nt PP ask for a trade? There was some trade rumours

[Funnyfuka]

mega teams dont last eternally either... put aside the teams who constantly get well managed (lakers,mavs, spurs, celtics, chicago)

[ginobli2311]

2 things:

1.) Dirk and Duncan never had a reason to leave. The Spurs have been a contender since the day TD walked through the door - its an extremely well managed franchise and they draft exceptionally well. And Mark Cuban has always paid to buy a good team around Dirk. Why leave? You wanna give props to a guy lwho stuck it out, its Paul Pierce. :D

2.) the super-team is the new trend in the NBA. Just accept it. The Celtics kicked in the door and in walked the Heat, now the Knicks, and others will follow. Dont be surprised if Paul or Howard :eek: end up in NY as well.

nothing new about it.

6 teams have won 29 of the last 31 titles. 4 teams have won 24 of the last 31 titles.

super teams have always dominated the nba. the difference now is that players are taking control of their future. but the end result is exactly the same.

you have superstars playing with other superstars and other all-nba players.

and also, our definition of superstar and star is extremely broad. how is bosh a superstar? really? he's a superstar? is westbrook a superstar? is rondo a superstar? at some point we need to redefine what a star actually is. all this self promotion.....hell....if you listen to espn, we have 35 players in the top 15. kind of pointless.

i mean, is al horford a superstar now? joe johnson? LOL

[strike]

Let's not act like Duncan wasn't one of the main reasons the Spurs have been contending for titles. No Duncan = no titles.

of course.
tim duncan = top 10 ALL TIME.

No doubt about it. But he had the admiral when he first joined.
Then as time went on he had a great coach, and excellent players around him and a fantastic organisation.
He was certainly more lucky than Dirk ever was.

Not taking anything away from Duncan hes 1 of my fave players of all time. But he's never quite been in a desperate team with no hope

[ginobli2311]

of course.
tim duncan = top 10 ALL TIME.

No doubt about it. But he had the admiral when he first joined.
Then as time went on he had a great coach, and excellent players around him and a fantastic organisation.
He was certainly more lucky than Dirk ever was.

Not taking anything away from Duncan hes 1 of my fave players of all time. But he's never quite been in a desperate team with no hope

true, but tim duncan (4 times) and hakeem (1 time) and jordan (1 time) are the only superstars of the last 30 years to win a title without an all-nba teammate.

what duncan has done is truly remarkable.

[Harison]

When did that happen? Serious question, I'd want to know as I've never heard of that and he's my favourite player.
It was almost a decade ago, Duncan threatened to leave, possibly to Magic to play with G.Hill. Spurs convinced him to stay, they have an amazing front office and a HOF coach. I did quick google check for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs121510

[QUOTE]Duncan won

[ginobli2311]

It was almost a decade ago, Duncan threatened to leave, possibly to Magic to play with G.Hill. Spurs convinced him to stay, they have an amazing front office and a HOF coach. I did quick google check for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs121510



There is more, if you want to research.

yep.

and there is nothing wrong with that. duncan stayed because they built well around him. kobe did the same thing in the summer before 08. why should kobe waste some of his best years on bad teams? makes no sense.

this is what we should want out of our elite players. we should want them to care more about winning than money or fame.

we can't have it both ways. and for the last time. you need at least 2 great players to win titles when you build around a superstar. you have to have that pippen or gasol or kobe or shaq or mchale or parrish or kareem or magic. that is the way it works.

only tim duncan and hakeem have won as superstars really without that. so this whole "teaming up" things is pointless. who cares how it happens? it needs to happen for these players and teams to win.

[IBLEEDGREEN20]

dirk is the man

[Harison]

Please explain :confusedshrug:
.
He is the greatest Euro player? The NBA is still considered the best accolade on any athlete's resume right. He is the best/greatest ever European player
Sabonis was a better player than Dirk, few other EU players can claim that as well. NBA is definitely huge, but its not be-all end-all. Just because one plays almost all his career in NBA doesnt automatically make him better. If Hakeem would have dominated EU instead, would you consider him a worse player than Dirk?

[Sarcastic]

Let's not act like Duncan wasn't one of the main reasons the Spurs have been contending for titles. No Duncan = no titles.

Exactly. Which is why I always say the player is more important than the franchise, and size of market is irrelevant when people try to bring up small market vs big market debates.

[dirkdiggler41]

dirk is the man

I agree, he even took a paycut (20mill if I remeber correctly)

[Pinkhearts]

Why no love for Kobe? He stuck with his team too.

Yeah too many haters for him eh.

[redsoxballer]

Ducan, Dirk, Pierce, Nash, and Kobe are all respectable for sticking with their franchises, even when some of them (Suns and Mavs) failed to bring in the right pieces.

[ginobli2311]

Why no love for Kobe? He stuck with his team too.

Yeah too many haters for him eh.

hard to give kobe props for that when he's been on a top 2 team in the league now in 12 of his 15 years in the league.

8 years with prime shaq and having the greatest coach ever at your side for almost your entire prime as well.

sorry, hard to give him props for staying.

[Harison]

yep.

and there is nothing wrong with that. duncan stayed because they built well around him. kobe did the same thing in the summer before 08. why should kobe waste some of his best years on bad teams? makes no sense.
That means you dont consider loyalty a good thing, some may view it differently, starting with OP of this thread. Personally I think it depends on situation, its better if player carries franchise to the fame on his shoulders, like MJ did. But if front office is really bad and you see no hope, its fine to leave after some years too.



only tim duncan and hakeem have won as superstars really without that.
Premier examples would be Barry and Dream, what Duncan accomplished is definitely impressive just not on that level.

[ginobli2311]

That means you dont consider loyalty a good thing, some may view it differently, starting with OP of this thread. Personally I think it depends on situation, its better if player carries franchise to the fame on his shoulders, like MJ did. But if front office is really bad and you see no hope, its fine to leave after some years too.


Premier examples would be Barry and Dream, what Duncan accomplished is definitely impressive just not on that level.

duncan in 03 was about as impressive as hakeem. barry might be on a different level than both of them really.

i do value loyalty. but i don't blame players. that is my point. we can't have it both ways. we can't praise dirk for being loyal.....and the turn around and hammer him for not winning titles. it doesn't work that way. like i posted above.....in the last 31 years, only hakeem/duncan/jordan have won titles without having an all-nba teammate. and pippen was clearly elite in 91 even though he didn't make the team.

so i think its great dirk stayed loyal, but his legacy would have been better if he left to go join paul pierce in boston or something in 2003. because those guys would have won titles.

[creepingdeath]

Why no love for Kobe? He stuck with his team too.

Yeah too many haters for him eh.
Maybe because he wanted out and put a gun to the fo's chest? :facepalm Has nothing to do with hating.. It's not that I don't get why Kobe wanted out, but the fact still remains.

[kabalcage]

Players like Dirk and Duncan are patient enough to allow their respective teams to actually build around them.

LeBron was a total prick and just started demanding things in which the Cavs organization obliged. Without the ability to stay patient, the Cavs made moves that had "quick fix" written all over them. They could never truly build around LeBron because he wasn't committed to them, and everybody in the league knew it. That's probably why Ray Allen never signed with the Cavs because he knew that he'd be stuck with Cleveland after LeBron left.

Unfortunately these are our superstars. So when you invest the money to buy season tickets to see these guys; keep in mind they may not be there if there's an opportunity to move. I've lost the trust of nearly all the guys in the NBA. If I hear Dwight Howard and Kevin Durant want to join the Lakers when possible, I'll totally believe it and expect it now.

[ginobli2311]

Players like Dirk and Duncan are patient enough to allow their respective teams to actually build around them.

LeBron was a total prick and just started demanding things in which the Cavs organization obliged. Without the ability to stay patient, the Cavs made moves that had "quick fix" written all over them. They could never truly build around LeBron because he wasn't committed to them, and everybody in the league knew it. That's probably why Ray Allen never signed with the Cavs because he knew that he'd be stuck with Cleveland after LeBron left.

Unfortunately these are our superstars. So when you invest the money to buy season tickets to see these guys; keep in mind they may not be there if there's an opportunity to move. I've lost the trust of nearly all the guys in the NBA. If I hear Dwight Howard and Kevin Durant want to join the Lakers when possible, I'll totally believe it and expect it now.

part of that is true.

the bigger part and reality is that no free agents want to play for the cavs...even with lebron there. bosh said this. he refused to join lebron in cleveland.

i've seen this happen in dallas man. we couldn't even land rashard lewis...and he's from dallas. its a lot harder than you think.

the spurs got extremely lucky on a number of fronts. one is that they had robinson and duncan right off the bat. the other is that their draft picks (parker/manu) turned out to be top 25 or better players in the league.

sorry, its a lot harder than you think. lebron put pressure on the cavs to win. and they did the best they could i guess....but that is the point....the best of the cavs just isn't good enough.

[Harison]

duncan in 03 was about as impressive as hakeem. barry might be on a different level than both of them really..
You are Duncan fan, so I understand why you think this, but objectively Duncan had very solid team (even without an All-star teammate) and HOF coaching, and faced weaker competition than Dream on the way, so its not the same level.



so i think its great dirk stayed loyal, but his legacy would have been better if he left to go join paul pierce in boston or something in 2003. because those guys would have won titles.
I agree, but it depends. Should have KG left sooner? Sure. Would it be better if Jordan with Bird instead of bringing Bulls/Celtics to the glory just joined Magic on the Lakers? Not really, no. Recent controversy with Lebron is an example how NOT to handle it. Even more recent example with Deron is another disgrace.

[ginobli2311]

You are Duncan fan, so I understand why you think this, but objectively Duncan had very solid team (even without an All-star teammate) and HOF coaching, and faced weaker competition than Dream on the way, so its not the same level.


I agree, but it depends. Should have KG left sooner? Sure. Would it be better if Jordan with Bird instead of bringing Bulls/Celtics to the glory just joined Magic on the Lakers? Not really, no. Recent controversy with Lebron is an example how NOT to handle it. Even more recent example with Deron is another disgrace.

agree to disagree about duncan. he beat the the kobe/shaq lakers coming off of a three peat. i don't see the difference at all. both team didn't have a 2nd guy. and both teams had unproven young players and a few vets.

maxwell/horry/thorpe/smith/cassell/elie

parker/jackson/manu/rose/robinson/bowen (keep in mind that parker and manu and jackson and bowen were not even half the players they would become)

how these players handle this is different from the end result. i totally agree. but shaq left orlando and you don't hear an blip about that ever. and winning cures all of this.

[knightfall88]

I don't disrespect Melo or Kobe for what they did. I do however have a problem with Lebron deceiving the Cavs and leaving them with nothing. If he demanded a trade publicly, Cavs may have made more moves OR the Cavs may have had the chance to trade him.

[Nero Tulip]

It was almost a decade ago, Duncan threatened to leave, possibly to Magic to play with G.Hill. Spurs convinced him to stay, they have an amazing front office and a HOF coach. I did quick google check for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs121510



There is more, if you want to research.


Thanks :cheers:

Had no idea this happened. That would've been the biggest mistake in his career.

[kabalcage]

part of that is true.

the bigger part and reality is that no free agents want to play for the cavs...even with lebron there. bosh said this. he refused to join lebron in cleveland.

i've seen this happen in dallas man. we couldn't even land rashard lewis...and he's from dallas. its a lot harder than you think.

the spurs got extremely lucky on a number of fronts. one is that they had robinson and duncan right off the bat. the other is that their draft picks (parker/manu) turned out to be top 25 or better players in the league.

sorry, its a lot harder than you think. lebron put pressure on the cavs to win. and they did the best they could i guess....but that is the point....the best of the cavs just isn't good enough.

I'd agree that it's difficult to build a contender, it takes some skill and a lot of luck. That Bosh example isn't a very good example because we all know now that there was collusion going on. Bosh wasn't going to go to Cleveland to play with LeBron because he knew LeBron was going to Miami. In NBA circles, a lot of players knew that LeBron wasn't committed to the organization and was probably going to leave.

The Spurs have been one of the best run organizations for the past decade; at this point I'd consider them competent instead of just plain ole' lucky. The Mavs have always been aggressive but not to a fault like Cleveland. It got so bad in Cleveland that LeBron was practically the coach and GM. And LeBron sucks at being a GM.

[wally_world]

It helped that their front office supplied them with good players around them.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, not for Nash! :mad:

Our owners are never willing to spend. We had that nice young core of Amare/Marion/JJ that can contend for years to come, but we didnt wna pay JJ, we traded Marion and let Shaq expire for nothing, and allowed Amare to walk in the FA without getting a decent replacement back. We are obviously not contending now yet we refuse to let Nash go just so we can still sell tickets.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ginobli2311]

I'd agree that it's difficult to build a contender, it takes some skill and a lot of luck. That Bosh example isn't a very good example because we all know now that there was collusion going on. Bosh wasn't going to go to Cleveland to play with LeBron because he knew LeBron was going to Miami. In NBA circles, a lot of players knew that LeBron wasn't committed to the organization and was probably going to leave.

The Spurs have been one of the best run organizations for the past decade; at this point I'd consider them competent instead of just plain ole' lucky. The Mavs have always been aggressive but not to a fault like Cleveland. It got so bad in Cleveland that LeBron was practically the coach and GM. And LeBron sucks at being a GM.

well. it depends on what you choose to believe. but it wasn't lebron's fault that the cavs let boozer go. it wasn't his fault that they overpaid for hughes. it wasn't his fault that ferry did nothing with wally's expiring contract in 09. maybe lebron is to blame for jamison in 2010, but its the job of a front office to make the right decisions.

just look at the lakers. kobe wanted bynum gone for jason kidd. LOL...that would have been absolutely retarded. players are players. mitch told kobe to literally STFU and just play. its a sign of a weak franchise and inept front office if they really let a player tell them which players to get.

a player simply saying they want to win and win now should be good for a franchise.

[ImmortalD24]

So you already really respected Kobe? :D


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_players_who_have_spent_their_entire_ca reer_with_one_franchise

[2LeTTeRS]

It was almost a decade ago, Duncan threatened to leave, possibly to Magic to play with G.Hill. Spurs convinced him to stay, they have an amazing front office and a HOF coach. I did quick google check for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-spurs121510



There is more, if you want to research.


Factually you're right Duncan did consider leaving the Spurs and signing with the Magic, but he did not "threaten to leave." At that time he was a free agent who was evaluating his options, and the chance to play with Grant Hill and T Mac intrigued him.

[Basketball Fan]

Dirk yes Tim Duncan not really I mean don't get me wrong Duncan didn't do anything wrong but he won 4 titles with the team he has.

Dirk got an NBA Finals appearance and unfortunately was subjected to extremely biased officiating in 2006 NBA Finals.


Pau Gasol was well on his way to being another Dirk himself until he got traded to the Lakers.

[A.R.T]

i swear, ginobli is brainwashing some people on this forum. you're going to tell me that a guy who had a 2-0 lead w/ homecourt advantage against a mediocre (compared to other champions) miami heat team in the finals never had the team to win a title? how can people actually agree with this?

it's not the fact that dirk's team wasn't good enough, it's the fact that HE wasn't good enough.

super STARS win championships, not super teams. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have won nearly all of the titles in the last 3 decades because they're the elite of the elite. stop acting like they played with an entire team of HoFers

[ginobli2311]

i swear, ginobli is brainwashing some people on this forum. you're going to tell me that a guy who had a 2-0 lead w/ homecourt advantage against a mediocre (compared to other champions) miami heat team in the finals never had the team to win a title? how can people actually agree with this?

it's not the fact that dirk's team wasn't good enough, it's the fact that HE wasn't good enough.

super STARS win championships, not super teams. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have won nearly all of the titles in the last 3 decades because they're the elite of the elite. stop acting like they played with an entire team of HoFers

no superstar has won a title without an all-nba teammate other than duncan/hakeem/jordan in the last 31 years.

no. i don't put dirk on that level.

so sorry. you fail.

please find me superstars other than the three above that won titles without an all-nba teammate. by all means.

and even more....pippen was elite in 91. manu was elite in 05 and parker was elite in 07. so really its only hakeem in 94 and duncan in 03.

again. where is your evidence. if its so easy to win without an elite 2nd option, why has it happened only a couple times in the last 31 years?

and dirk not winning in 06 is why he's not on the duncan or hakeem or jordan or uber elite level. only a few players in the last 30 years have proven they can win without that great 2nd option as superstars. so to your point, they lost because dirk wasn't as good as duncan or hakeem...no shit. has anyone ever said dirk is on that level? no.

you can't just ignore the last 31 years of history of what it takes to win with a superstar.

again. please provide your evidence of these superstars winning without an all-nba type 2nd option.

waiting......

[EllisGW]

people who hate star players for moving are jealous morons. Any of you guys find a better job in nice city would leave in heartbeat. I hate it when fat guys who can't play sports complain players leaving cities. these players have the right to move and to not respect because they leave a play for a different team is joke.

[creepingdeath]

So you already really respected Kobe? :D


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_players_who_have_spent_their_entire_ca reer_with_one_franchise
[I]

[Funnyfuka]

super STARS win championships, not super teams. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have won nearly all of the titles in the last 3 decades because they're the elite of the elite. stop acting like they played with an entire team of HoFers


http://wattahack.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/moron.gif

[ginobli2311]

http://wattahack.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/moron.gif

LOL

i gave him a brief lesson above.

but lets go a little deeper:

some combination of the following for titles for the last 31 years:

bird/mchale/parrish/archibald/dj
magic/kareem/worthy
moses/dr. j
jordan/pippen/grant/rodman
hakeem/drexler
duncan/robinson/manu/parker
shaq/kobe
wade/shaq
kg/pierce/allen
kobe/gasol/odom

ROFL.....

[A.R.T]

no superstar has won a title without an all-nba teammate other than duncan/hakeem/jordan in the last 31 years.

no. i don't put dirk on that level.

so sorry. you fail.

please find me superstars other than the three above that won titles without an all-nba teammate. by all means.

and even more....pippen was elite in 91. manu was elite in 05 and parker was elite in 07. so really its only hakeem in 94 and duncan in 03.

again. where is your evidence. if its so easy to win without an elite 2nd option, why has it happened only a couple times in the last 31 years?

and dirk not winning in 06 is why he's not on the duncan or hakeem or jordan or uber elite level. only a few players in the last 30 years have proven they can win without that great 2nd option as superstars. so to your point, they lost because dirk wasn't as good as duncan or hakeem...no shit. has anyone ever said dirk is on that level? no.

you can't just ignore the last 31 years of history of what it takes to win with a superstar.

again. please provide your evidence of these superstars winning without an all-nba type 2nd option.

waiting......

when did i ever say it's easy? you're making it seem like dirk has never had a chance to win an nba title because of his team, and that's just flat out wrong. winning a title is never easy no matter how stacked a team is.

the nba is, and always will be, a star driven league. that's why 4 guys have essentially monopolized the championship for the past 30 years. look at their teams, and then look at the other playoff teams. i can't think of any team who was significantly better on paper than the other top seeds in their conference.

[ginobli2311]

when did i ever say it's easy? you're making it seem like dirk has never had a chance to win an nba title because of his team, and that's just flat out wrong. winning a title is never easy no matter how stacked a team is.

the nba is, and always will be, a star driven league. that's why 4 guys have essentially monopolized the championship for the past 30 years. look at their teams, and then look at the other playoff teams. i can't think of any team who was significantly better on paper than the other top seeds in their conference.

i never said dirk didn't have a chance. i said he didn't have the same kind of chances as other superstars over the last 31 years. i showed that if you have s superstar like dirk, you need an elite 2nd option all-nba type player by his side pretty much every single time unless that player is named hakeem/jordan/duncan.

and no....dirk is not on their level so i don't hold him to that standard. you said superstars win...not super teams. i agree and disagree. you almost always need a superstar, but you also need that 2nd guy. and has dirk ever really had that 2nd guy in his prime? not really. even the nash that dirk played with was often injured and far worse than the nash on the suns because of health and the rules change.

we aren't saying dirk is better than shaq or something absurd. we are saying that loyalty can often result in less titles. for dirk, what if he forced his way to play next to paul pierce in 2002 or something? do you really think that pierce and dirk wouldn't have won a couple of titles together? just look at what happened to KG in minny.

we hold these superstars to a title or bust standard....then we get mad at them when they leave their teams. it makes no sense because often these teams don't give them what they need to win titles.

that was our point.

[Sroek]

That's because they've always had a competent FO who put solid players around them.

Are we forgetting about KG in minny? Now that's a class act.

[2LeTTeRS]

we hold these superstars to a title or bust standard....then we get mad at them when they leave their teams. it makes no sense because often these teams don't give them what they need to win titles.

that was our point.

I've never seen a more true statement on this forum. Repped.

It's funny, we used to rip these guys for only caring about the money. Now they are showing themselves to be just as interested in winning as dollar signs, and we''re using that to criticize them by saying they are taking shortcuts to titles. It makes no sense to me.

[Scholar]

When did either of them have any reason to leave?

This.

It'll be a snowy day in Los Angeles before Tim Duncan even considers demanding a trade out of a title contending team. As for Dirk, he led his team to the Finals in '06 and they haven't missed the playoffs since. He might be annoyed that the team hasn't won a title yet but the Mavs have been one of the top teams in the league for the past several years.
Overall, they didn't nor will they ever ask to be traded because they don't need to be.

[Pinkhearts]

hard to give kobe props for that when he's been on a top 2 team in the league now in 12 of his 15 years in the league.

8 years with prime shaq and having the greatest coach ever at your side for almost your entire prime as well.

sorry, hard to give him props for staying.

I guess it's hard to give Duncan props too for having such great players and a great coach.

[Pinkhearts]

Maybe because he wanted out and put a gun to the fo's chest? :facepalm Has nothing to do with hating.. It's not that I don't get why Kobe wanted out, but the fact still remains.

Duncan did the same didn't he? :facepalm Guess the fact still remains.

[creepingdeath]

Duncan did the same didn't he? :facepalm Guess the fact still remains.
Never said otherwise and I hold both these guys to the same standard.

[ginobli2311]

I guess it's hard to give Duncan props too for having such great players and a great coach.

i agree. duncan really never had a reason to leave. there was just this great potential opportunity brewing in orlando that obviously intrigued him.

but please don't compare kobe's supporting casts to duncan's. duncan has won all 4 of his titles as the best player and not one of those title teams had an all-nba player.

kobe played 8 years with prime shaq. was the 2nd best player for three of his titles, and has never won a title without an all-nba teammate.

completely absurd to compare the two.

[Pinkhearts]

Let's do a round up shall we?

Kobe played with Shaq and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Kobe sucks and deserves no respect.

Duncan played with Robinson and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Duncan sucks and deserves no respect.

Lebron and Bosh left their teams to join a superteam so that they can win. Therefore Lebron and Bosh sucks and deserves no respect.


ISH, where everyone is hated and no one gets any respect:confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

Duncan did the same didn't he? :facepalm Guess the fact still remains.

no he didn't.

unless i'm mistaken i never heard duncan demand a trade midseason. duncan entertained the idea of leaving in free agency. completely different.

am i wrong. i dont' remember it the way you do at all.

[2LeTTeRS]

Duncan did the same didn't he? :facepalm Guess the fact still remains.

When did Duncan do this? He never once requested a trade, hell he took less money then he could have when he was a free agent. The worse thing he did was look at all his options when his contract was expired. Your seriously calling that "pointing a gun at his front office's chest"?

Edit - Just re-read the post you quoted and I guess you were trying to say that Duncan, like Kobe was blessed with a great team from jump. If thast what you meant, my bad.

[ginobli2311]

Let's do a round up shall we?

Kobe played with Shaq and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Kobe sucks and deserves no respect.

Duncan played with Robinson and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Duncan sucks and deserves no respect.

Lebron and Bosh left their teams to join a superteam so that they can win. Therefore Lebron and Bosh sucks and deserves no respect.


ISH, where everyone is hated and no one gets any respect:confusedshrug:


who is blaming kobe? i said earlier i don't blame him for putting pressure on his team. i said i'm not going to give him props for staying when he's had the kind of teams he has.

the duncan situation was different unless i'm missing something. duncan was going to be a free agent. kobe just called up a radio show and demanded to be traded.

completely different unless i'm missing something.

[Pinkhearts]

When did Duncan do this? He never once requested a trade, hell he took less money then he could have when he was a free agent. The worse thing he did was look at all his options when his contract was expired. Your seriously calling that "pointing a gun at his front office's chest"?

Edit - Just re-read the post you quoted and I guess you were trying to say that Duncan, like Kobe was blessed with a great team from jump. If thast what you meant, my bad.

Read the thread again. There was an earlier post with a link saying Duncan almost quit the team until the FO managed to convince him to stay.

[2LeTTeRS]

Read the thread again. There was an earlier post with a link saying Duncan almost quit the team until the FO managed to convince him to stay.

That was a lie. I posted a response to that about 25 posts ago and the guy who made that statment chose not to respond. Here I'll quote it for you:


Factually you're right Duncan did consider leaving the Spurs and signing with the Magic, but he did not "threaten to leave." At that time he was a free agent who was evaluating his options, and the chance to play with Grant Hill and T Mac intrigued him.

[The_LA_Blakers]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:


Duncan is just classy, and Dirk as a person never has any ill-will towards anyone.


It will be sad when both of these guys are out of the league. We need more guys like this in the NBA where we see character and effort every night.


The less drama, the better.

[rmt]

Let's do a round up shall we?

Kobe played with Shaq and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Kobe sucks and deserves no respect.

Duncan played with Robinson and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Duncan sucks and deserves no respect.

Lebron and Bosh left their teams to join a superteam so that they can win. Therefore Lebron and Bosh sucks and deserves no respect.


ISH, where everyone is hated and no one gets any respect:confusedshrug:

Talk about twisting words - Kobe's situation was entirely different from the others. Kobe had 4 years left on his contract, wanted to be traded and threw Bynum under a bus. It's one thing to criticize your front office/management but your own team mate (especially one so young) who you supposedly "go to war with?"

Duncan was exploring options at the end of his contract. Lebron and Bosh left at the end of their contracts - all legal under the rules. Now, I strongly disagree with the way Lebron chose to leave, but he was under no contractual agreement with the Cavs.

[Artillery]

i swear, ginobli is brainwashing some people on this forum. you're going to tell me that a guy who had a 2-0 lead w/ homecourt advantage against a mediocre (compared to other champions) miami heat team in the finals never had the team to win a title? how can people actually agree with this?

That Heat team wasn't great but they still had two ALL-NBA players(Wade/Shaq) compared to only one for the Mavs(Dirk).

[kentatm]

Lebron and Bosh left their teams to join a superteam so that they can win. Therefore Lebron and Bosh sucks and deserves no respect.


are you really THAT dense that you don't understand the main reason LeBron caught so much flack was b/c of HOW he left?

WHY is that so hard for some people to understand?

It was all about the look at me attention whoring "Decision" special that got him hated. If he doesn't let the Cavs fans twist in the wind like he was maybe going to stay when it became clear he never had any intention to he doesnt get near the hate from Ohio and if he doesnt have the extremely narcissistic "Decision" special with one of the worlds most hated sports "journalists" he doesnt get the national hate.

95% of the hate is b/c of LeBron being an egotistical jackass. Not b/c he switched teams. Its how he carries himself.

If you can't understand that at this point then you are part of the same generational "Look at me, I want it easy and I want it now, I'm a golden god" problem.


and PS, Bosh NEVER had much respect when he was in Toronto (though he constantly cried for it which earned him even less) so why the hell would you expect people to give it to him now?

[Juges8932]

It helped that their front office supplied them with good players around them.

This.

And why? If a player wants to win championships and they don't feel their current organization is doing what is needed in order to do so, then why should they stay? Why should they keep their mouth shut? It's stupid. If they are unhappy and want to win, then they need to do what is best for them and will allow them to be in the best possible situation to accomplish that.

I just don't understand the idea that players should just keep their mouths shut and stay with an organization, accepting failure. If they feel they can change that by going to another organization they feel does/will do a better job, then why not? Just because society will respect them for being a martyr? That's just stupid.

[Artillery]

Let's do a round up shall we?

Kobe played with Shaq and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Kobe sucks and deserves no respect.

Duncan played with Robinson and many other great players and had a great coach for many years. He threatened to leave unless the FO built a good team. Therefore Duncan sucks and deserves no respect.

Lebron and Bosh left their teams to join a superteam so that they can win. Therefore Lebron and Bosh sucks and deserves no respect.


ISH, where everyone is hated and no one gets any respect:confusedshrug:

lol at comparing post-injury Robinson to prime Shaq.

But anyway, Duncan didn't go on camera throwing teammates under the bus("Ship his ass OUT") or go on a radio tour denouncing his club("I'd rather play on Pluto than for the Lakers"). Or organize a one-hour tv program to announce his decision("Take my talents to South Beach"). He was more subtle about it. He made one trip to Orlando to test his options while he was a FA but he ultimately resigned. I don't think he ever demanded to be traded though.

[creepingdeath]

Therefore Kobe sucks and deserves no respect.

WTH.. :roll: Insecurity much? No one even remotely criticized Kobe in this thread... But I guess when some guys get praise you feel like your boy has been left out. Poor kid.

[ihatetimthomas]

Duncan is a class act, but he is also blessed to have played on one of the best franchises in the league and has always been on a title contending team. Based on his personality, I do not think he would have demanded a trade, but we will never know 100% because he has never had to play on a bad team. So he is a tough player to use in this argument.

Dirk could have demanded a trade, but I think he has also played on good teams his entire career and he has an owner who is willing to make deals and wants to win. I do not entirely agree with his decisions all the time, but he is a owner intent on winning and willing to spend. This is all you can ask for sometimes.

Nash seems to me to be the only one we can say for certain has a true loyal mentality because he is now in the end of his career and still wants to remain a Sun. I have total respect for him because he has never made te finals and he is not crying and wanting to jump aboard a team.

I am not trying to take away from Dirk or Duncan. I have utmost respect for those guys and how they have handled them selves in a professional manner. But they have also been blessed (dirk to a smaller degree) of playing on great franchises. Had they played for the Clippers or Memphis or something, we may have had a different perspective on these players loyalty.

[thomaspynchon]

Duncan is a class act, but he is also blessed to have played on one of the best franchises in the league and has always been on a title contending team. Based on his personality, I do not think he would have demanded a trade, but we will never know 100% because he has never had to play on a bad team. So he is a tough player to use in this argument.

Dirk could have demanded a trade, but I think he has also played on good teams his entire career and he has an owner who is willing to make deals and wants to win. I do not entirely agree with his decisions all the time, but he is a owner intent on winning and willing to spend. This is all you can ask for sometimes.

Nash seems to me to be the only one we can say for certain has a true loyal mentality because he is now in the end of his career and still wants to remain a Sun. I have total respect for him because he has never made te finals and he is not crying and wanting to jump aboard a team.

I am not trying to take away from Dirk or Duncan. I have utmost respect for those guys and how they have handled them selves in a professional manner. But they have also been blessed (dirk to a smaller degree) of playing on great franchises. Had they played for the Clippers or Memphis or something, we may have had a different perspective on these players loyalty.

But Dirk is the one who created the franchise. You have to keep in mind how many people mocked the Nowitzki draft pick in '98 and all the people who said Nash would be garbage when he was brought over to Dallas. Dirk has never gotten a free agent like a Kobe gets all the time. And Cuban's trades have largely done more hurt than they have helped the Mavs. And in the early 2000s the Kings/Lakers/Spurs all had better talent than did Dallas.

[ihatetimthomas]

But Dirk is the one who created the franchise. You have to keep in mind how many people mocked the Nowitzki draft pick in '98 and all the people who said Nash would be garbage when he was brought over to Dallas. Dirk has never gotten a free agent like a Kobe gets all the time. And Cuban's trades have largely done more hurt than they have helped the Mavs. And in the early 2000s the Kings/Lakers/Spurs all had better talent than did Dallas.

I don't think you can say that Mark has done more hurt than help. They made their only finals appearance in 06. That franchise was not a relevant team before he got there. They have made the playoffs every year he has been there, and was on a 10 year drought prior to him. I agree that he has not gotten a true 2 option, but he put together some talented squads. The team is what it is today because of Mark. Its not easy to snag superstars through free agency and trades, he did what he could with what was there.

Like I said, I do not agree with all of Marks decisions, but its crazy to say he has not helped more than hurt. And I am not at all trying to take away from Dirk's loyalty, bc I think he is a loyal player and he could have tested free agency last year. But he didnt and re-signed.

[thomaspynchon]

I don't think you can say that Mark has done more hurt than help. They made their only finals appearance in 06. That franchise was not a relevant team before he got there. They have made the playoffs every year he has been there, and was on a 10 year drought prior to him. I agree that he has not gotten a true 2 option, but he put together some talented squads. The team is what it is today because of Mark. Its not easy to snag superstars through free agency and trades, he did what he could with what was there.

Like I said, I do not agree with all of Marks decisions, but its crazy to say he has not helped more than hurt. And I am not at all trying to take away from Dirk's loyalty, bc I think he is a loyal player and he could have tested free agency last year. But he didnt and re-signed.

I think almost every other owner would have done a better job than Cuban. He let Nash walk, signed Dampier to a massive contract, has made mid seasson trade after trade affecting continuity while never signing an elite swingman once during the Dirk era. I understand Cuban puts on a "happy face" to the public but behind closed doors he has done far more harm to the team than he has helped. he's the same guy who wanted to risk Dirk's career in the 02-03 WCF.

[oh the horror]

Im sorry fellas, but im calling BS on this one. You throw Duncan on a struggling franchise for several years, and see how happy he is with that.



No big league player wants to lose for several seasons.

[ihatetimthomas]

I think almost every other owner would have done a better job than Cuban. He let Nash walk, signed Dampier to a massive contract, has made mid seasson trade after trade affecting continuity while never signing an elite swingman once during the Dirk era. I understand Cuban puts on a "happy face" to the public but behind closed doors he has done far more harm to the team than he has helped. he's the same guy who wanted to risk Dirk's career in the 02-03 WCF.

Dude are you kidding me? There are plenty of owners who are worse. Take the Clippers for example and the Knicks the past decade. Cubans results have been pretty solid in his tenure, not a lot of teams have had the success he has had.

It was a mistake to let Nash walk but no one knew he would turn into a 2 time MVP candidate. He was not as highly touted when he was a Mav. And the Mavs needed size. Dont agree with the signing, but there is logic behind it. They had absolutely no size and Damp was coming off a great year. Cant blame him on the deal. I hate the length on the deal, but at the time this is what bigs were getting paid.

You can basically look at every team and pick out bad decisions owners have made.

He certainly is not a perfect owner, but many teams would kill to have someone willing to spend and intent on winning, rather than just make money.

[creepingdeath]

he's the same guy who wanted to risk Dirk's career in the 02-03 WCF.
Wasn't Mark the one who objected Nelson's notion to play Dirk despite his injury?

[A.R.T]

i never said dirk didn't have a chance. i said he didn't have the same kind of chances as other superstars over the last 31 years. i showed that if you have s superstar like dirk, you need an elite 2nd option all-nba type player by his side pretty much every single time unless that player is named hakeem/jordan/duncan.

and no....dirk is not on their level so i don't hold him to that standard. you said superstars win...not super teams. i agree and disagree. you almost always need a superstar, but you also need that 2nd guy. and has dirk ever really had that 2nd guy in his prime? not really. even the nash that dirk played with was often injured and far worse than the nash on the suns because of health and the rules change.

we aren't saying dirk is better than shaq or something absurd. we are saying that loyalty can often result in less titles. for dirk, what if he forced his way to play next to paul pierce in 2002 or something? do you really think that pierce and dirk wouldn't have won a couple of titles together? just look at what happened to KG in minny.

we hold these superstars to a title or bust standard....then we get mad at them when they leave their teams. it makes no sense because often these teams don't give them what they need to win titles.

that was our point.

you keep saying that dirk isn't on those guys' level, but you keep grouping them together as 'superstars'. dirk is a tier below those guys. he's had a comparable team to duncan for his entire career, but duncan is the one with 4 rings while dirk has none. not a knock on dirk, he just had the misfortune of going through his prime while dominant players like shaq and duncan were reigning over the west. similar to how other all time greats like barkley, ewing, malone, stockton had the misfortune of playing when jordan was dominating the league.

there will always be a team in the league who's the most talented. always. in turn, there will always be teams who aren't as good as other teams. has the best team of talent always won the championship? absolutely not. great players find a way to overcome the odds. this is perfectly illustrated in the '06 finals. dirk had a good a chance as anyone in the league has ever had at winning a title. terry carried the team in game 1, and had another huge performance in game 5 which would have given the mavs a 3-2 lead, which is HUGE in the finals w/ homecourt advantage. but dirk simply did not play up to championship standards, and subsequently walked away with no ring. meanwhile, dwyane wade put up a historic performance and led his team back from insurmountable odds to win a ring. great players find a way to win.

and no, dirk and paul pierce in '02 aren't winning any titles either. i'd take prime duncan + scrubs and kobe/shaq lakers over that duo any day. dominant players will always find a way to win. that's how the league has always been. dirk just isn't a dominant player like that.

[MooseJuiceBowen]

I do have to give respect to dirk for staying with his orginization and mark cuban for keeping him there BUT tim duncan ALSO took a pay cut im not sure if yall knew that. I dont think dirk or shaq would of ever done that either. One of the most classy players to ever play the game. real team player

[Nash]

What BS, its easy to be loyal when you're constantly playing with good players. Guys like Lebron, Bosh and Melo were playing in teams with no future.

[A.R.T]

What BS, its easy to be loyal when you're constantly playing with good players. Guys like Lebron, Bosh and Melo were playing in teams with no future.

back to back 60 win teams, #1 overall record is a team with no future. :roll:

[Showtime]

back to back 60 win teams, #1 overall record is a team with no future. :roll:
That success was because of Lebron, not because he had an elite team. What future did they have if it was all Lebron? More finals sweeps because he was playing next to mediocre players? They didn't have any prospects outside of JJ, and didn't have a good track record from the front office of building a team. Seriously, what move outside of drafting Lebron (which was a no-brainer) inspired confidence in that franchise to build a championship team?

[A.R.T]

That success was because of Lebron, not because he had an elite team.

yes, one man single handedly rose from the carnage and wreckage that is the city of cleveland and valiantly battled entire opposing teams amassing a season high in wins for two years straight without breaking a sweat.

you people are morons.

[Showtime]

yes, one man single handedly rose from the carnage and wreckage that is the city of cleveland and valiantly battled entire opposing teams amassing a season high in wins for two years straight without breaking a sweat.

you people are morons.
You are a moron if you think his cavs teams, minus him, was elite. He was the reason why the cavs were a contending team. Jesus, were you even watching the NBA and the cavs before Lebron? He was nowhere near as good his rookie year as he is today, and yet he doubled their wins. He took an absolutely bad team to the finals that had no business even being there.

[A.R.T]

You are a moron if you think his team, minus him, was elite. He was the reason why the cavs were a contending team. Jesus, were you even watching the NBA before Lebron? He was nowhere near as good his rookie year as he is today, and yet he doubled their wins. He took an absolutely bad team to the finals that had no business even being there.

no business? he played two 40 win teams and an aging pistons squad that he had already lost to twice before who also got torched by wade the previous season.

he shot over 50% 3 times out of 20 games during that run, with games of:

8-22
8-22
8-21
5-16
5-14
8-20
5-15
7-19
8-19
3-11
4-16
9-21
9-23
10-30

yeah man, he carried that team on his back with all of those impressive performances!

[Showtime]

no business? he played two 40 win teams and an aging pistons squad that he had already lost to twice before who also got torched by wade the previous season.

Ah, so you admit he single-handedly beat the Pistons?


he shot over 50% 3 times out of 20 games during that run, with games of:

8-22
8-22
8-21
5-16
5-14
8-20
5-15
7-19
8-19
3-11
4-16
9-21
9-23
10-30

yeah man, he carried that team on his back with all of those impressive performances!

Answer my questions:

Do you think his team, minus him, was elite?

Did you even watch the cavs, or the NBA for that matter, prior to him coming there?


It's clear Lebron was the only reason why that team was as successful as it was. I don't understand how anybody without an agenda could say otherwise. I'm not a Lebron fan, and have no stake in the Cavs, but it was clear what was going in with that franchise. He put them on the map, and played at a MJ/Magic/Bird level of both individual production and team impact during his time there.

[creepingdeath]

I do have to give respect to dirk for staying with his orginization and mark cuban for keeping him there BUT tim duncan ALSO took a pay cut im not sure if yall knew that. I dont think dirk or shaq would of ever done that either. One of the most classy players to ever play the game. real team player
Umm, Dirk took a paycut before this season.

[A.R.T]

Ah, so you admit he single-handedly beat the Pistons?



Answer my questions:

Do you think his team, minus him, was elite?

Did you even watch the cavs, or the NBA for that matter, prior to him coming there?

wat @ the bold. they lose that series if gibson doesn't put up 30+ in the close out game while lebron shoots 27%

from '09 on back, his team was elite defensively. also, they were elite in the sense that they perfectly complimented his playing style. the entire team was built around him, of course they're going to suck when he leaves. not to mention they're playing guys now who never even saw the court when lebron was there.

lebron is playing with the 2nd best player in the league and another top 15 player, and they're on pace for less wins than both the '09 and '10 cavs. but you're right, that team was just awful minus lebron.

[ATL_Bball_King]

The League aint the same no more...Lebron has changed it forever with the decision...He basically told all stars that is was ok to leave your franchise to better your situation... Dwight bout to do it, Dwill, CP3...Its about to be normal for a franchise player to leave there franchise...But Duncan never had a reason to leave, and Dirk had teams but choked in playoffs...

[ATL_Bball_King]

wat @ the bold. they lose that series if gibson doesn't put up 30+ in the close out game while lebron shoots 27%

from '09 on back, his team was elite defensively. also, they were elite in the sense that they perfectly complimented his playing style. the entire team was built around him, of course they're going to suck when he leaves. not to mention they're playing guys now who never even saw the court when lebron was there.

lebron is playing with the 2nd best player in the league and another top 15 player, and they're on pace for less wins than both the '09 and '10 cavs. but you're right, that team was just awful minus lebron.


To me Lebron carries his teams but does not make his teammates better...Thats why in the playoffs when he doensnt trust anyone and people are scared to step up... Yes his teams never had that second legit option but they finished 1st two years in a row with 60 wins there is no reason why they should lose in the second round two years in a row...

Just sayin

[ginobli2311]

you keep saying that dirk isn't on those guys' level, but you keep grouping them together as 'superstars'. dirk is a tier below those guys. he's had a comparable team to duncan for his entire career, but duncan is the one with 4 rings while dirk has none. not a knock on dirk, he just had the misfortune of going through his prime while dominant players like shaq and duncan were reigning over the west. similar to how other all time greats like barkley, ewing, malone, stockton had the misfortune of playing when jordan was dominating the league.

there will always be a team in the league who's the most talented. always. in turn, there will always be teams who aren't as good as other teams. has the best team of talent always won the championship? absolutely not. great players find a way to overcome the odds. this is perfectly illustrated in the '06 finals. dirk had a good a chance as anyone in the league has ever had at winning a title. terry carried the team in game 1, and had another huge performance in game 5 which would have given the mavs a 3-2 lead, which is HUGE in the finals w/ homecourt advantage. but dirk simply did not play up to championship standards, and subsequently walked away with no ring. meanwhile, dwyane wade put up a historic performance and led his team back from insurmountable odds to win a ring. great players find a way to win.

and no, dirk and paul pierce in '02 aren't winning any titles either. i'd take prime duncan + scrubs and kobe/shaq lakers over that duo any day. dominant players will always find a way to win. that's how the league has always been. dirk just isn't a dominant player like that.

many players have failed in big games. many top ten players of all time have failed in the finals actually.

you keep saying that "great players find a way to win"....ok. but you keep ignoring that every single superstar player has needed an all-nba type player to win a title except duncan in 03 and hakeem in 94. like i kept asking....find me another superstar that won without a legit 2nd option.

you can't since 1980. so.....my point is that dirk failed to win titles for a number of reasons. 1 is that dirk simply isn't good enough to do what hakeem and duncan did. but come on....there have been plenty of players that have won a title and are not top ten all time. and still....only 2 top ten players have won titles without an elite 2nd option. so our point was that dirk could have won titles with better teams. would it make dirk a better player? no, but acting like dirk played on similar teams to duncan is just not fair. duncan has played for vastly superior coaching and has had better overall teams built for winning. in his prime, dirk, has never played with players as good as parker or manu.

so great players don't always find a way to win. just look at lebron. is he not a great player? maybe its simply that the rules apply. you need a legit 2nd option.

i proved this already by showing that only 6 times in the last 31 years has a superstar won a title without an all-nba player. think about that. duncan did it 4 times, hakeem did it once, jordan did it once. thats it in the last 31 years. and like i've already explained....pippen was elite in 91 even though he wasn't all-nba. parker and manu were both elite in 05 and 07 as well.

so dirk gets that close without a legit 2nd guy in 06...but i'm to believe prime pierce and dirk wouldn't win a title or two together? sorry...it just doesn't fit.

[Skip Bayless]

many players have failed in big games. many top ten players of all time have failed in the finals actually.

you keep saying that "great players find a way to win"....ok. but you keep ignoring that every single superstar player has needed an all-nba type player to win a title except duncan in 03 and hakeem in 94. like i kept asking....find me another superstar that won without a legit 2nd option.

you can't since 1980. so.....my point is that dirk failed to win titles for a number of reasons. 1 is that dirk simply isn't good enough to do what hakeem and duncan did. but come on....there have been plenty of players that have won a title and are not top ten all time. and still....only 2 top ten players have won titles without an elite 2nd option. so our point was that dirk could have won titles with better teams. would it make dirk a better player? no, but acting like dirk played on similar teams to duncan is just not fair. duncan has played for vastly superior coaching and has had better overall teams built for winning. in his prime, dirk, has never played with players as good as parker or manu.

so great players don't always find a way to win. just look at lebron. is he not a great player? maybe its simply that the rules apply. you need a legit 2nd option.

i proved this already by showing that only 6 times in the last 31 years has a superstar won a title without an all-nba player. think about that. duncan did it 4 times, hakeem did it once, jordan did it once. thats it in the last 31 years. and like i've already explained....pippen was elite in 91 even though he wasn't all-nba. parker and manu were both elite in 05 and 07 as well.

so dirk gets that close without a legit 2nd guy in 06...but i'm to believe prime pierce and dirk wouldn't win a title or two together? sorry...it just doesn't fit.

Negged.

[ginobli2311]

To me Lebron carries his teams but does not make his teammates better...Thats why in the playoffs when he doensnt trust anyone and people are scared to step up... Yes his teams never had that second legit option but they finished 1st two years in a row with 60 wins there is no reason why they should lose in the second round two years in a row...

Just sayin

well...for starters the cavs lost in the conference finals in 09 with lebron having one of the best playoff series of all time. so you might want to get your facts straight.

and they lost last year to the celtics....the team that nearly won it all.

the fact that we are still having this debate is just laughable. how can anyone still pretend the cavs were a legit title squad around lebron? this just proves its impossible to discuss lebron at all now. really? do you people realize that pavlovic can't even make an nba team right now? i mean my god. deal with reality.

[ginobli2311]

Negged.

since nash left, please name the players dirk has played with that are better than manu and parker.

waiting......

negged

[GOBB]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

When was the last time the Spurs won less than 50 games in an 82gm season? Tim Duncan has no reason to demand anything when the Spurs front office has been one of the best in the NBA. You cant give the Spurs front office handjobs. You can wipe Spurs Hc Pop ass. Then say "Tim you're kewl for not demanding anything". He never needed too. Spurs are a well run franchise.

[Skip Bayless]

since nash left, please name the players dirk has played with that are better than manu and parker.

waiting......

negged

Don't add in Nash now. Your card has already been pulled mate. He's also played with players whom put up numbers that mirror Manu's and Parker's. Don't you dare compare Dirk to Duncan ever in your life.

Double negged.

[MooseJuiceBowen]

Umm, Dirk took a paycut before this season.

I dont remember it going down like that at all. do you have proof

[Showtime]

wat @ the bold. they lose that series if gibson doesn't put up 30+ in the close out game while lebron shoots 27%

That was in game 6. Even if Gibson didn't show up, they still had another game and the cavs had the momentum after Lebron's 48/9/7 game 5.


from '09 on back, his team was elite defensively. also, they were elite in the sense that they perfectly complimented his playing style. the entire team was built around him, of course they're going to suck when he leaves. not to mention they're playing guys now who never even saw the court when lebron was there.

You can't say Lebron had help and then say he was the primary reason why that team worked. If an entire team of mediocre role players are relying on one guy's game, then he's the major motor for the team. Without him, they are nothing. That's not the way to win championships, so thanks for proving me right that Lebron didn't have enough help.

Oh, and that finals team wasn't "built around him". He took a shit team to the finals.


lebron is playing with the 2nd best player in the league and another top 15 player, and they're on pace for less wins than both the '09 and '10 cavs. but you're right, that team was just awful minus lebron.

The team is also in it's first year, and there's an adjustment period. If they didn't get off to that rocky start, they could have had the best record. If they don't reach the cav's former win total, it's not an indication his cavs team was better.

[Showtime]

Don't add in Nash now. Your card has already been pulled mate. He's also played with players whom put up numbers that mirror Manu's and Parker's. Don't you dare compare Dirk to Duncan ever in your life.

Double negged.
Duncan > Dirk, repped.

[ginobli2311]

Don't add in Nash now. Your card has already been pulled mate. He's also played with players whom put up numbers that mirror Manu's and Parker's. Don't you dare compare Dirk to Duncan ever in your life.

Double negged.

uhhhh....my original post said "in his prime, dirk has not played with players as good as manu or parker"

and dirk really hit his prime around 04....right when nash left.

oh....and i never compared dirk to duncan as players. in fact, if you read my posts you'd see that i don't think dirk is on the duncan level.

this has nothing to do with dirk vs duncan. this was about what it takes to win titles. and duncan has won his 4 titles with less overall help than any other superstar of the last 30 plus years by a wide margin. its actually not close.

duncan won all 4 of his titles without an all-nba teammate. only hakeem (once) and jordan (once) have done that. and in jordan's case, pippen was definitely elite in 91 even though he didn't make the all-nba team.

my point was that we shouldn't hold dirk to the duncan standard. its not fair to him. because dirk isn't as good as duncan. but as far as winning titles, dirk has not had the same kind of help that other superstars have had.

that was my point. so please read the thread before chiming in with nothing to further the conversation.

[creepingdeath]

I dont remember it going down like that at all. do you have proof
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=5352960

Just look it up yourself. :facepalm

[Skip Bayless]

uhhhh....my original post said "in his prime, dirk has not played with players as good as manu or parker"

and dirk really hit his prime around 04....right when nash left.

oh....and i never compared dirk to duncan as players. in fact, if you read my posts you'd see that i don't think dirk is on the duncan level.

this has nothing to do with dirk vs duncan. this was about what it takes to win titles. and duncan has won his 4 titles with less overall help than any other superstar of the last 30 plus years by a wide margin. its actually not close.

duncan won all 4 of his titles without an all-nba teammate. only hakeem (once) and jordan (once) have done that. and in jordan's case, pippen was definitely elite in 91 even though he didn't make the all-nba team.

my point was that we shouldn't hold dirk to the duncan standard. its not fair to him. because dirk isn't as good as duncan. but as far as winning titles, dirk has not had the same kind of help that other superstars have had.

that was my point. so please read the thread before chiming in with nothing to further the conversation.

I've read, all I see are a bunch of calculated excuses for Dirk. A bunch of crying, nothing more, nothing less. Then you claiming he hasn't played with anyone as good as Manu and Parker is completely laughable. When did you start watching the NBA? Did you get a chance to see Finley and Nash operate live? If you swapped the teams around Duncan and Dirk, Duncan would have won even easier with Nash and Finely as his running mates over Manu and Parker. Give me a break with the excuses. Excuse for chokers deserves a ban.

Sorry for pulling your card, but that post was outrageous.

[Skip Bayless]

Duncan > Dirk, repped.

Exactly. Repped.

[Showtime]

uhhhh....my original post said "in his prime, dirk has not played with players as good as manu or parker"

and dirk really hit his prime around 04....right when nash left.

LOL no he didn't. In 2003, he was posting career highs in points, rebounds, and assists. The only difference was, there were better PF's in the league such as KG, Duncan, and Webber. It's not that Dirk hadn't hit his stride, it's that he was eclipsed by superior players. Dirk was definitely capable enough to be considered in his prime as a 25/10/3 player.

[ginobli2311]

LOL no he didn't. In 2003, he was posting career highs in points, rebounds, and assists. The only difference was, there were better PF's in the league such as KG, Duncan, and Webber. It's not that Dirk hadn't hit his stride, it's that he was eclipsed by superior players. Dirk was definitely capable enough to be considered in his prime as a 25/10/3 player.

i've probably missed 10 dirk games his entire career. he was fantastic starting in 02 and has been ever since.

but trust me, the dirk of 05 is when he truly hit his peak/prime.

and again. i've never said that dirk was better than duncan/shaq/kg. not once. so i honestly don't know what you are saying.

[creepingdeath]

LOL no he didn't. In 2003, he was posting career highs in points, rebounds, and assists. The only difference was, there were better PF's in the league such as KG, Duncan, and Webber. It's not that Dirk hadn't hit his stride, it's that he was eclipsed by superior players. Dirk was definitely capable enough to be considered in his prime as a 25/10/3 player.
So you're blaming Dirk for getting injured in the WCFs series against the Spurs ? :roll:

[Showtime]

So you're blaming Dirk for getting injured in the WCFs series against the Spurs ? :roll:
No, I'm arguing against the point that Dirk wasn't in his prime until after Nash left.

[Showtime]

i've probably missed 10 dirk games his entire career. he was fantastic starting in 02 and has been ever since.

but trust me, the dirk of 05 is when he truly hit his peak/prime.

and again. i've never said that dirk was better than duncan/shaq/kg. not once. so i honestly don't know what you are saying.
I'm saying Dirk was in his prime in 2003. He may have improved in some areas of his game since then, but there's a difference between little improvements and putting up that kind of production.

Kobe and Lebron have both improved parts of their games since their early 20's, but that doesn't mean they weren't starting their primes when they were 28+/6+/5+ players.

[ginobli2311]

No, I'm arguing against the point that Dirk wasn't in his prime until after Nash left.

i guess i should have used peak.

but sorry. i know dirk a lot better than you do. and the stats simply won't tell the story. you would know this if you watched him night in night out. he became a noticeably better player after nash left.

don't forget that the mavs were playing nellie ball all the way through 04. i don't have the stats, but i'd bet a lot of money that the pace is way different from 04 to 05....and that makes dirk's numbers a lot more impressive post nash.

[ginobli2311]

I'm saying Dirk was in his prime in 2003. He may have improved in some areas of his game since then, but there's a difference between little improvements and putting up that kind of production.

Kobe and Lebron have both improved parts of their games since their early 20's, but that doesn't mean they weren't starting their primes when they were 28+/6+/5+ players.


like i said, i guess i should have said peak/prime instead of prime.

[creepingdeath]

No, I'm arguing against the point that Dirk wasn't in his prime until after Nash left.
Well, we may agree on that. He may have been in his prime, but he didn't peak. Yet more importantly Finley was declining pretty quickly. The drop-off to the 02/03 season was apparent, but in 03/04 (especially the postseason) you could see that he was a shell of his former self. And Nashy? He was far from being the type of player he later became in Phoenix.

In 02/03 they could've gone to the finals, true. But Dirk's injury and Steve f*cking Kerr stopped us.

Don't know how you can put that on Dirk or use against him. Quite the contrary. It's funny though, I suspect you're still butthurt that Dirk sh*t on Webber even when Dallas lost against your Kings in 04, where Bibby and Peja bailed your guy out.

[Harison]

That was a lie. I posted a response to that about 25 posts ago and the guy who made that statment chose not to respond. Here I'll quote it for you:
What response? Your fans opinion? I remember when this actually happened, and the articles used word "threatened", maybe it was journalistic "darkening of colors", maybe it did happened, neither you or I were behind the closed doors and know what happened in reality. Truth is, Duncan was thinking about leaving, even though he had a solid team, what happens when he has terrible team? Its not hard to assume he bolts, so OP is a bit stretching by giving props to Duncan and forgetting actually loyal players.

[ginobli2311]

What response? Your fans opinion? I remember when this actually happened, and the articles used word "threatened", maybe it was journalistic "darkening of colors", maybe it did happened, neither you or I were behind the closed doors and know what happened in reality. Truth is, Duncan was thinking about leaving, even though he had a solid team, what happens when he has terrible team? Its not hard to assume he bolts, so OP is a bit stretching by giving props to Duncan and forgetting actually loyal players.

i honestly don't remember duncan ever threatening, but he was open and honest about the fact that he was thinking about leaving for orlando.

but this is my point. who cares if duncan did threaten? its good for these players to put pressure on teams. duncan was holding up his end...he was the 2nd best or best player in the league and on his way to becoming a legend. if the spurs had failed to surround him with talent, he should have left.

the true loyal guy is KG. he stayed loyal even though minny failed him time and time again. and look what happened. KG lost nearly his entire prime playing on crap teams.

and that was my point. we can't have it both ways. we can't praise these guys for being loyal, and then tear them down when they don't win a bunch of titles. not all superstars are as fortunate as kobe/shaq/duncan/magic/bird/jordan. but we never discuss that because it muddies that waters and makes us actually use our brains. its much easier to just say:

"bu bu but player x has more rings......"

[mlh1981]

I think it's a great thing for the league when a superstar stays with one team. It really helps foster team rivalries, something badly missing in this game.

[Nash]

yes, one man single handedly rose from the carnage and wreckage that is the city of cleveland and valiantly battled entire opposing teams amassing a season high in wins for two years straight without breaking a sweat.

you people are morons.
Cleveland with Lebron = 60 wins two seasons in a row
Cleveland without Lebron = Worst team in NBA history

You're a moron for just blindly ignoring that fact. You just don't become that bad with a normal superstar. Lebron was doing miracles with that team.

[Artillery]

Cleveland with Lebron = 60 wins two seasons in a row
Cleveland without Lebron = Worst team in NBA history

You're a moron for just blindly ignoring that fact. You just don't become that bad with a normal superstar. Lebron was doing miracles with that team.

The '99 Clippers and '73 SIxers were worse.

[2LeTTeRS]

What response? Your fans opinion? I remember when this actually happened, and the articles used word "threatened", maybe it was journalistic "darkening of colors", maybe it did happened, neither you or I were behind the closed doors and know what happened in reality. Truth is, Duncan was thinking about leaving, even though he had a solid team, what happens when he has terrible team? Its not hard to assume he bolts, so OP is a bit stretching by giving props to Duncan and forgetting actually loyal players.

What articles used the word threatened? Not the one you quoted. You bolded the language in the article which speaks about Duncan thinking about leaving and nowhere does it say he threatened to leave. I follow transactions in the NBA religiously because for the last 10 years since I've known I wanted to be an agent or work in a team's front office, and I followed the situation closely when Duncan was a free agent and you're the only person I've ever heard say "Duncan threatened to leave."

Here's exactly what the article you quoted says.

[quote]Tim Duncan smiles as he surveys the shifting NBA landscape.

[SCdac]

Duncan has had multiple opportunities to leave San Antonio, and has re-signed with the Spurs a handful of times at least, even after Robinson (who was a big part of him staying) retired. Loyalty goes beyond blind-unconditional-loyalty, it's also seeing what else is out there, seeing what others have to offer, and after all that, still staying with your original team. Spurs are one of the most loyal teams in the modern era - resigning all of Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and Bowen. Hell, even gave Richard Jefferson another chance, and let Ian Mahinmi hang around for like 5 years.

[JerrySteakhouse]

Duncan and Dirk both have been on contenders year in and year out. Why would they even consider leaving in the first place? You put one of these guys in a scrub team and I bet you anything they would request a trade. Loyalty is at a minimum in the NBA, especially after Lebron's Decision.

[blablabla]

Why shouldn't Dirk stay with his team, I can't even remember the last time the Mavs were under the cap. Cuban is always spending money to give Dirk the best players possible. Last year they traded Josh Howard who had an expiring contract for Butler who has a horrible contract, unlike KG's Timberwolves or Kobe's Lakers, these teams didn't want to spend money and so they demanded a trade why not I'm a prime Kobe had Odom as his second option.
Look at the players Dirk that played for the Mavs in Dirk's prime
Terry,Howard,Kidd,Finley,Harris,Nash,Stackhouse of the bench and what did he do losing against GSW in the first round or choking away a finals lead.
KG did much more with a worse squad.
Duncan always had talent around him and a great coach, why should he leave he won 4championships with the Spurs and they have the best record this season.

Some people here really need to stop to hate on stacked teams like the Heat,
when the teams they are supporting are as stacked.
It doesn't matter if you have 3stars or 1star and a good all around team solid roleplayers good 3rd options, for example the 04pistons beat the 04lakers and they had 0stars while the lakers had 2stars.
And is also doesn't matter if PLayer X stays with TeamY because the players that are going to join the team in order to win a championship are always from another team. So it would have been the same if Wade and Bosh joined James in Cleveland.

[LA_Showtime]

i guess i should have used peak.

but sorry. i know dirk a lot better than you do. and the stats simply won't tell the story. you would know this if you watched him night in night out. he became a noticeably better player after nash left.

don't forget that the mavs were playing nellie ball all the way through 04. i don't have the stats, but i'd bet a lot of money that the pace is way different from 04 to 05....and that makes dirk's numbers a lot more impressive post nash.

I guess that ONLY applies to Dirk, as you're nothing but a stat nut otherwise.

[Javat_90]

I must have missed the memo...

What have the Heat proven this year that the Cavs haven't done the last two years???

Your paranoid schitzophrenia/double personality disorder scares the f*ck outta me.

Real talk.

[ginobli2311]

I guess that ONLY applies to Dirk, as you're nothing but a stat nut otherwise.

well...that isn't true at all. but this is different. sometimes a player can put up better numbers at a young age even though he's a much better player later.

for dirk, we played nellie ball with nash and finley and no defense. it was easier to have good numbers in that system. just like the dantoni system inflates stats a bit.

i never said dirk wasn't good back then. i said he was noticeably better in 05. which is simply true if you watched dirk and the mavs.

and i'm not really a big stat guy. i'm a big efficiency guy. there is a difference.

but thanks for your post. it adds so much to the thread.
:cheers:

[Javat_90]

^^

You`re a double-standard Kobe Bryant hater, thats all.

and the worst part is, you`re not even honest about it.

[Harison]

What articles used the word threatened? Not the one you quoted.
The articles 10 years ago, while quoted article was just a reference for Nero Tulip. I understand you are Spurs fan, but whats with the obsession with semantics?


Cleveland with Lebron = 60 wins two seasons in a row
Cleveland without Lebron = Worst team in NBA history

Thats not exactly true. Current Cavs are nothing like last years team. It was build around Lebron's strengths, and if he would have been replaced with similar-style star, Cavs would still easily be Playoffs team. Since Lebron screwed the franchise, Cavs instead of relatively smooth transition had to implode.

[LA_Showtime]

well...that isn't true at all. but this is different. sometimes a player can put up better numbers at a young age even though he's a much better player later.

for dirk, we played nellie ball with nash and finley and no defense. it was easier to have good numbers in that system. just like the dantoni system inflates stats a bit.

i never said dirk wasn't good back then. i said he was noticeably better in 05. which is simply true if you watched dirk and the mavs.

and i'm not really a big stat guy. i'm a big efficiency guy. there is a difference.

but thanks for your post. it adds so much to the thread.
:cheers:

Says the guy who routinely starts threads that are blatantly biased. I bet half of your threads get locked within the first 5 minutes. :oldlol:

I think this thread's pretty cut and dried. Duncan > Dirk. More clutch, a much better defender, a better leader, and possesses the intangibles Dirk will never have.

[creepingdeath]

Duncan > Dirk.
No one ever refuted than in this thread, not even the biggest Dirk homers. But nice try.

Go back into your Kobe cave.

[Rondo'd]

When did either of them have any reason to leave?

Exactly.

[ginobli2311]

Says the guy who routinely starts threads that are blatantly biased. I bet half of your threads get locked within the first 5 minutes. :oldlol:

I think this thread's pretty cut and dried. Duncan > Dirk. More clutch, a much better defender, a better leader, and possesses the intangibles Dirk will never have.

once again you prove you are a troll. nobody has even remotely hinted that dirk is better than duncan.

bye bye kobe tard. please leave.

and i rarely make threads. and when i do, they are at least backed up in some form or another.

but only kobe stans think its biased to start a thread about kobe's inept game winning shot play in the playoffs or elite wing analysis. yea...those stats are all biased against kobe. LOL

[KenneBell]

once again you prove you are a troll.
You have no room to be calling anyone a troll.:oldlol:

[Javat_90]

Come on ginobli133445435 or whatever your retarded name is...

You have been caught multiple times in double-standards and slight manipulation when it comes to your "insight analysis" of Kobe Bryant`s game.

The fact that you`re a blind hater and arent even willing to be honest about it, talks a lot about how pathetic you are.

Now call me a stan and so on, and try to turn or switch this situation upside down, 95 % of this board knows the truth.

[ginobli2311]

Come on ginobli133445435 or whatever your retarded name is...

You have been caught multiple times in double-standards and slight manipulation when it comes to your "insight analysis" of Kobe Bryant`s game.

The fact that you`re a blind hater and arent even willing to be honest about it, talks a lot about how pathetic you are.

Now call me a stan and so on, and try to turn or switch this situation upside down, 95 % of this board knows the truth.

i don't wast time on posters like you.

[Javat_90]

i don't wast time on posters like you.

Translation:

Javat_90 just destroyed and spit the truth about me in a Robin Hood like fashion, I dont know what to reply a this point.

[thomaspynchon]

Wasn't Mark the one who objected Nelson's notion to play Dirk despite his injury?

other way around...there was a WSJ article on it...Nellie refused to let Dirk play and Cuban stormed into his office with medical papers demanding that he play Dirk

[VishaltotheG]

Did the 04 Pistons have any all-NBA players?

[Jasper]

There are a number of players in history that played for only one franchise because they had pride in being DRAFTED by that organization.

Many of those same players still have some type of link to that franchise either in the broadcast booth , scout consultant , or other front office positions.

Some other threads on the board were referring to the inbalance of the league because of big market teams.

lets face it all franchises are worth millions , but others are worth more and large markets have a viable impact on teams as well as players and revenue.

But I am surprised that more teams in the middle to small market have not tried or duplicated the scouting and acquisions that the SPURs have done to not only keep Duncan , but build around Duncan with so many unique players that he would be a fool to leave the organization.
At one time or another he could of left for Orlando , or took less money and even targeted LA.... his hands would of been full of rings and maybe only Russell would of been his superior when it would be all said and done.

-------------
Best impression on my mind is John Stockton ... a fighter as well as NASH..
which of course equals loyality.

Guys like Garnett and Baylor , Worthy , Majic , EWING all have different cred in regards to loyality , but it is still there.

Part of the equation is coachs change , rosters change , and eventually those loyal players still have to move on.
Ray Allen was destroyed when Milwaukee sent him to Seattle for the Glove.
Looks like he rebounded o.k. :D

[rmt]

But I am surprised that more teams in the middle to small market have not tried or duplicated the scouting and acquisions that the SPURs have done to not only keep Duncan , but build around Duncan with so many unique players that he would be a fool to leave the organization.
At one time or another he could of left for Orlando , or took less money and even targeted LA.... his hands would of been full of rings and maybe only Russell would of been his superior when it would be all said and done.


Even with all the success that the Spurs have had, I think they reported over AS weekend that they still don't turn a profit (Peter Holt said that during the owners-players negotiations). They simply can't charge the prices for seats/marketing that large market teams do. Think of the players that they didn't sign because they're so conscious of the luxury tax such as Scola (traded to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract) and Stephen Jackson (can't afford both him and Manu).

It's not easy for other teams to duplicate what the Spurs have done around Duncan simply because players with his post offense and defense don't grow on trees regardless of whether the team is small, medium or large. A team either gets lucky drafting/having great players like TD or Shaq or the current trend of bringing together players like BOS in order to win championships.

[A.R.T]

That was in game 6. Even if Gibson didn't show up, they still had another game and the cavs had the momentum after Lebron's 48/9/7 game 5.



yeah... i think that momentum is gone with lebron shooting 3-11 in game 6.


You can't say Lebron had help and then say he was the primary reason why that team worked. If an entire team of mediocre role players are relying on one guy's game, then he's the major motor for the team. Without him, they are nothing. That's not the way to win championships, so thanks for proving me right that Lebron didn't have enough help.



what is this garbage? :roll: this is arguably the dumbest thing i've read on this board. so if you're the primary reason a team works, you have no help by default??? is that what you're saying? jordan, obviously, was the primary reason the Bulls won 6 titles. you're saying he had no help because of this? shaq was the primary reason the lakers 3peated. but he had no help either, right..




Oh, and that finals team wasn't "built around him". He took a shit team to the finals.


The team is also in it's first year, and there's an adjustment period. If they didn't get off to that rocky start, they could have had the best record. If they don't reach the cav's former win total, it's not an indication his cavs team was better.

the cavs defense took that team to the finals just as iverson's team's defense did. both played on teams who played great defense to cover up awful shooting performances by their star players.

[A.R.T]

many players have failed in big games. many top ten players of all time have failed in the finals actually.

you keep saying that "great players find a way to win"....ok. but you keep ignoring that every single superstar player has needed an all-nba type player to win a title except duncan in 03 and hakeem in 94. like i kept asking....find me another superstar that won without a legit 2nd option.

you can't since 1980. so.....my point is that dirk failed to win titles for a number of reasons. 1 is that dirk simply isn't good enough to do what hakeem and duncan did. but come on....there have been plenty of players that have won a title and are not top ten all time. and still....only 2 top ten players have won titles without an elite 2nd option. so our point was that dirk could have won titles with better teams. would it make dirk a better player? no, but acting like dirk played on similar teams to duncan is just not fair. duncan has played for vastly superior coaching and has had better overall teams built for winning. in his prime, dirk, has never played with players as good as parker or manu.

so great players don't always find a way to win. just look at lebron. is he not a great player? maybe its simply that the rules apply. you need a legit 2nd option.

i proved this already by showing that only 6 times in the last 31 years has a superstar won a title without an all-nba player. think about that. duncan did it 4 times, hakeem did it once, jordan did it once. thats it in the last 31 years. and like i've already explained....pippen was elite in 91 even though he wasn't all-nba. parker and manu were both elite in 05 and 07 as well.

so dirk gets that close without a legit 2nd guy in 06...but i'm to believe prime pierce and dirk wouldn't win a title or two together? sorry...it just doesn't fit.

if parker and manu are elite in 05 and 07, then terry is elite in 06. all 3 put up similar numbers. quit with the double standards.

lebron has only been in the league 7 years coming into the league at 18. is it really a surprise that he hasn't won a title yet? if he stays in cleveland, there's no doubt in my mind that he ends up with a ring.

dirk, on the other hand, has been surrounded by quality teams his entire career and came up short every year. he's a great player, just not #1 option championship material. that's been proven throughout his entire career. it's as simple as that. you can nitpick and make all the double standards you want. Dirk has had good teams around him for nearly his entire career. more than lebron had in cleveland and more than kg had in minny. stop comparing their situations as if they were equal.

[PowerGlove]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

Bunch of double sided BS.

When has Duncan or Dirk ever had a lottery garbage type team and coach around him?

NEVER

I'm tired of people saying that these people are classier than most because they didnt complain publicly blah blah blah. Especially Dirk he has had all he needs to win a chip and still doesnt have one. Shit, them complaining wouldn't even make any sense.It would be fine if you said that about Ray Allen....it would be fine if said that about Garnett, but Duncan and Dirk? Seriously?

[Doranku]

Bunch of double sided BS.

When has Duncan or Dirk ever had a lottery garbage type team and coach around him?

NEVER

I'm tired of people saying that these people are classier than most because they didnt complain publicly blah blah blah. Especially Dirk he has had all he needs to win a chip and still doesnt have one. Shit, them complaining wouldn't even make any sense.It would be fine if you said that about Ray Allen....it would be fine if said that about Garnett, but Duncan and Dirk? Seriously?

Uh oh, brace yourself for the flurry of rage ginobli is about to send your way for that one. :roll:

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

These guys never ask to leave there team or demand anything from there front office when things wheren't going so well, they never threw any of there teammates under the bus and played the game the way it should be played.

Much respect to Dirk and Duncan and also Steve Nash.:applause:

this is how it is supposed to be....pathetic new age drama queens like James/wade/Bosh and Melo...Pathetic

this is where the NBA is going to get ruined...Super Friends forming teams

[Pinkhearts]

are you really THAT dense that you don't understand the main reason LeBron caught so much flack was b/c of HOW he left?

WHY is that so hard for some people to understand?

It was all about the look at me attention whoring "Decision" special that got him hated. If he doesn't let the Cavs fans twist in the wind like he was maybe going to stay when it became clear he never had any intention to he doesnt get near the hate from Ohio and if he doesnt have the extremely narcissistic "Decision" special with one of the worlds most hated sports "journalists" he doesnt get the national hate.

95% of the hate is b/c of LeBron being an egotistical jackass. Not b/c he switched teams. Its how he carries himself.

If you can't understand that at this point then you are part of the same generational "Look at me, I want it easy and I want it now, I'm a golden god" problem.


and PS, Bosh NEVER had much respect when he was in Toronto (though he constantly cried for it which earned him even less) so why the hell would you expect people to give it to him now?

So I take it that you've never read a post here saying that Lebron took the easy way out joining the Heat to go ring chasing and be Wade's Robin?

Either you haven't been on ISH much or you are really that obtuse.

[foutz]

dunkan is grate of playor, have wonnings of many champion chip so i have of raspect to many of dunkan to playor he of comeings. he of swimmer star of little year of pastings

[tpols]

Uh oh, brace yourself for the flurry of rage ginobli is about to send your way for that one. :roll:
Ginobli is a fvcking clown lol.. dirk's team had a 2-0 lead in the finals and were easily the favorites to win at that point but dirk never had a chance at a ring because he didn't have a good second option?:roll:

[Silverbullit]

Ginobli is a fvcking clown lol.. dirk's team had a 2-0 lead in the finals and were easily the favorites to win at that point but dirk never had a chance at a ring because he didn't have a good second option?:roll:

The second option that shot 7 of 25 in game 6? Or the third option that shot 5-16?

[PowerGlove]

The second option that shot 7 of 25 in game 6? Or the third option that shot 5-16?
So we really going to forget that Jason Terry was the reason they even had that 2-0 lead? Like for real.

Jet played better than Dirk that series.

[tpols]

The second option that shot 7 of 25 in game 6? Or the third option that shot 5-16?
What about game 1 when terry dropped 32 on 13-18 shooting or 13-25 for 35? lol at you picking his bad games and not his good ones..

Face it.. the mavs had a 2-0 lead and were blowing out the heat in the third game. They had them against a wall completely.. and then after losing momentum in that third game dirk lays an egg in game 4 going 2-14.. yup the mavs never had a chance at a chip though..:oldlol:

[Silverbullit]

What about game 1 when terry dropped 32 on 13-18 shooting or 13-25 for 35? lol at you picking his bad games and not his good ones..

Face it.. the mavs had a 2-0 lead and were blowing out the heat in the third game. They had them against a wall completely.. and then after losing momentum in that third game dirk lays an egg in game 4 going 2-14.. yup the mavs never had a chance at a chip though..:oldlol:

The series wasn't lost in game 4 but in game 6.

[thomaspynchon]

So we really going to forget that Jason Terry was the reason they even had that 2-0 lead? Like for real.

Jet played better than Dirk that series.

He was better than Dirk in two of the games. Anyways the series was bullshit

[Pacquiao]

Dirk and Duncan never quit especially Dirk who never asked to be traded.

Lebron is a Big Time Quitter. His team has the best record, making the playoffs every year but he quit. He can't handle the pressure. Kobe played with Smush and Kwame Brown but still didn't quit.

Lebrick is a QUITTER who can't handle Pressure.

[2LeTTeRS]

The articles 10 years ago, while quoted article was just a reference for Nero Tulip. I understand you are Spurs fan, but whats with the obsession with semantics?

Once again, the next time you understand something please let it be true. I'm not now and never was a Spurs fan. Just comes down to the fact that I really don't like people mischaracterizing facts.

[ginobli2311]

Ginobli is a fvcking clown lol.. dirk's team had a 2-0 lead in the finals and were easily the favorites to win at that point but dirk never had a chance at a ring because he didn't have a good second option?:roll:

point to me where i said dirk never had a chance to win. i said dirk has not had many chances to win based on the historical standard of winning titles for superstars.

i'm not going to compare dirk to hakeem or duncan or jordan. dirk simply isn't on their level....but those are the only superstars of the last 31 years to win an nba title without an all-nba player on their team. so why should dirk have to do something that bird or magic or moses or shaq or kobe or really jordan or kg never did? how is that fair. i'm sick of people just ignoring 30 plus years of history and trying to turn the mavs into a juggernaut.

even more, pippen/manu/parker were at times top 15 players in the league even though they didn't make the all-nba team.

i love how everyone keeps bringing up dirk playing bad in his only finals series as if other great players haven't played as bad or worse in the finals.

did dirk blow it in 06 in the finals? yes....but that is why he's not duncan or hakeem or jordan.

powerglove:

dirk has not had everything he's needed. he's played with a bunch of very good players and for very good teams. but please don't act like he's had everything.

early in his career he was playing nellie ball paired with nash (often injured and much worse that the suns nash based on maturity and rules change) and finley (good player but one dimensional and aging)....he had bradley and lafrentz and najera at center trying to beat the spurs in the playoffs.

nellie ball does not work. never has and never will. you know this.

since 2003, dirk has not had an all-nba teammate. so right there that shows you he hasn't had the historical criteria for winning a title as a superstar. his coaching has also been extremely weak compared to the other title teams. pop/jackson/brown/riley/rivers......please don't compare them to nellie or avery or carlisle.

people just love to hate on dirk and try to change the historical criteria for winning a title as a superstar. i didn't make this up. its just a trend. where was dirk's pippen/mchale/pierce/gasol/kobe/shaq??? he never had a guy even approaching those players.

so whatever. dirk's play at times prevented the mavs from winning more. but this is true with every great player of all time. go back and look at what wins titles in the nba when you have a superstar and then come back and tell me that dirk's teams truly belong in that elite company.

[Big#50]

of course.
tim duncan = top 10 ALL TIME.

No doubt about it. But he had the admiral when he first joined.
Then as time went on he had a great coach, and excellent players around him and a fantastic organisation.
He was certainly more lucky than Dirk ever was.

Not taking anything away from Duncan hes 1 of my fave players of all time. But he's never quite been in a desperate team with no hope
LOL You must be 15. You totally missed the 2001 and 2002 season.

[Big#50]

When was the last time the Spurs won less than 50 games in an 82gm season? Tim Duncan has no reason to demand anything when the Spurs front office has been one of the best in the NBA. You cant give the Spurs front office handjobs. You can wipe Spurs Hc Pop ass. Then say "Tim you're kewl for not demanding anything". He never needed too. Spurs are a well run franchise.
Why don't you guys realize Duncan is the reason we think he has a great coach, they draft well,, they are run great. Give him his props. He made the Spurs. He made Manu. He made the little French *****. Duncan is the reason. His new nickname is The Reason. Greatest player next to Kareem.

[ginobli2311]

Why don't you guys realize Duncan is the reason we think he has a great coach, they draft well,, they are run great. Give him his props. He made the Spurs. He made Manu. He made the little French *****. Duncan is the reason. His new nickname is The Reason. Greatest player next to Kareem.

i think some of that is true, but pop is a great coach. duncan did not make pop a great coach.

you can't say that. others could chime back and say pop made duncan the player he is.

neither statement is true. they are both great on their own and helped each other get even better. but please don't insinuate that duncan made parker/manu/pop...thats just not true.

[Big#50]

i think some of that is true, but pop is a great coach. duncan did not make pop a great coach.

you can't say that. others could chime back and say pop made duncan the player he is.

neither statement is true. they are both great on their own and helped each other get even better. but please don't insinuate that duncan made parker/manu/pop...thats just not true.
Players like Tim could make coaches like Scott Skiles look like Red. On a serious note, do you really think Manu and Parker become the players they did with no Tim?

[ginobli2311]

Players like Tim could make coaches like Scott Skiles look like Red. On a serious note, do you really think Manu and Parker become the players they did with no Tim?

i wouldn't go that far.

no...i think manu and parker greatly benefited from playing with duncan.

i also think duncan greatly benefited from playing with manu and parker. parker especially could put up much better numbers on other teams. so it goes both ways a bit.

hell, just look at terry when dirk isn't on the floor. he's a joke. this is not something that is only duncan specific. great players make the lives of other players easier.

but you take it too far. manu and parker would thrive playing next to other great players as well. hell, we might think parker is even better if he played on a different team.

[Big#50]

i wouldn't go that far.

no...i think manu and parker greatly benefited from playing with duncan.

i also think duncan greatly benefited from playing with manu and parker. parker especially could put up much better numbers on other teams. so it goes both ways a bit.

hell, just look at terry when dirk isn't on the floor. he's a joke. this is not something that is only duncan specific. great players make the lives of other players easier.

but you take it too far. manu and parker would thrive playing next to other great players as well. hell, we might think parker is even better if he played on a different team.
Tim won a ring without them. And basically won a ring again in 03 by going into Shaq/Kareem mode. No help from either one.

[2LeTTeRS]

Players like Tim could make coaches like Scott Skiles look like Red. On a serious note, do you really think Manu and Parker become the players they did with no Tim?

I think Manu would have. He was really good in Europe. Not so sure about Parker though, but with his blinding speed who knows.

[ginobli2311]

Tim won a ring without them. And basically won a ring again in 03 by going into Shaq/Kareem mode. No help from either one.

i know.

which is one reason of many why i think duncan is a top 6 or so player of all time. hell, he might be even better.

of the last 31 years, duncan has won 4 titles without an all-nba teammate. the only other two players to do this are hakeem (once) and jordan (once)...and in jordan's case, pippen was already a top 15 player he just didn't make the all-nba team.

thats it. those are the only superstars to ever do it in the last 31 years. and duncan did it 4 ****ing times. unreal.

i love duncan. i think he's amazing. this has nothing to do with duncan. i just don't think he made pop/manu/parker. i think he helped them develop and made life easier for sure, but those guys would be been successful in other situations as well. as successful? of course not.

[rodman91]

Duncan & Dirk is underrated by most of the fans..just like Hakeem. Because they were never been primadonnas like Jordan,Shaq,Kobe,Lebron.

[LA_Showtime]

No one ever refuted than in this thread, not even the biggest Dirk homers. But nice try.

Go back into your Kobe cave.

Did I say anybody said Dirk > Duncan? No. Learn to read.

[LA_Showtime]

i don't wast time on posters like you.

You don't waste time whenever you're legitimately called out or your points are proven to be wrong. When that happens, you mysteriously disappear. :oldlol:

[creepingdeath]

Did I say anybody said Dirk > Duncan? No. Learn to read.
Then what's the point in posting it? SMH. :roll:

Duncan > Kobe, by the way.

[LA_Showtime]

Then what's the point in posting it? SMH. :roll:

Duncan > Kobe, by the way.

Have I said otherwise? And did you really just call me out and then post that? Do you know what a hypocrite is? :oldlol:

[ginobli2311]

You don't waste time whenever you're legitimately called out or your points are proven to be wrong. When that happens, you mysteriously disappear. :oldlol:

called out for what? what are you even talking about? i can post whatever i want. i'm not a troll. trolls just jump in and out of threads posting "you mad" pictures and not backing anything up and just attack other posters.

this is often what you do. you just attack different posters rather than have a legit discussion or debate.

[LA_Showtime]

called out for what? what are you even talking about? i can post whatever i want. i'm not a troll. trolls just jump in and out of threads posting "you mad" pictures and not backing anything up and just attack other posters.

this is often what you do. you just attack different posters rather than have a legit discussion or debate.

I've had "legit" discussions with you, and they usually end with you posting something ridiculous like, "owned" or else you just completely ignoring what I write and leaving.

Okay, you aren't a troll. You're just extremely delusional and borderline psychotic.

[ginobli2311]

I've had "legit" discussions with you, and they usually end with you posting something ridiculous like, "owned" or else you just completely ignoring what I write and leaving.

Okay, you aren't a troll. You're just extremely delusional and borderline psychotic.

and i feel the same way about you. you often attack posters. i think that is the lamest thing to do on a message board. you come online to make fun of people. LOL

just don't bother with me then. i'll do the same with you.

[creepingdeath]

Have I said otherwise? And did you really just call me out and then post that? Do you know what a hypocrite is? :oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

[QUOTE=creepingdeath]

[creepingdeath]

I said Duncan > Dirk and that's all there is to it. That's hardly garbage. You're really stretching with this one. Just don't respond and end it, because you just sound dumb.
Yeah right, I'm the one sounding dumb when you randomly post something like that in a thread that isn't even about skills or impact. You always call people trolls and cry when a Lakers gamethread gets hijacked. Doesn't really fit when you're doing it yourself.

[PowerGlove]

This is still going on....:facepalm

[creepingdeath]

This thread just got 4 shades blacker. :lol

[rodman91]

This is still going on....:facepalm

Let's finish it with saying Jordan was better them both :oldlol: