If Rose wins MVP

[kaiiu]

If Rose wins he MVP will he be the worst player to ever win it. A ist of past MVPs

Pettit
Cousy
Chamberlain
Russell
Oscar
Unseld
Willis Reed
Lew Alcinder
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
M. Malone
Erving
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Hakeem
Dvid Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaq
AI
Duncan
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron

Im a big rose fan but imo he would be:confusedshrug:

[Halcyon]

Rose could end up being better than 1/2 that list by the time he is done. You have know way of predicting how good he will be.

[kaiiu]

Rose could end up being better than 1/2 that list by the time he is done. You have know way of predicting how good he will be.
I know im talking about being good at the current time they won it. He prooly will end up better than a couple of those players im talking about the seasons they had

[magnax1]

Dirk is the worst to ever win it.

[Javat_90]

I dont agree with worst player, perhaps less efficient, but not worse player.

He has been having a great season, Chicago is being Chicago mainly thanks to him. He is being very clutch and taking over games.

But the team is still lacking scoring hability, specially perimeter scoring, so Rose has to take more shots and take more scoring responsability than he should have to in a 100 % ideal situation.

[kaiiu]

I dont agree with worst player, perhaps less efficient, but not worse player.

He has been having a great season, Chicago is being Chicago mainly thanks to him. He is being very clutch and taking over games.

But the team is still lacking scoring hability, specially perimeter scoring, so Rose has to take more shots and take more scoring responsability than he should have to in a 100 % ideal situation.
yeah I should change my first post. I dont mean the " WORST" player to ever mean. Im talking the least impressive season

[crisoner]

Rose is up in coming...why the hate?

The way he has been playing he should be well considered.

[kaiiu]

Rose is up in coming...why the hate?

The way he has been playing he should be well considered.

....


Im a big rose fan but imo he would be

[miles berg]

Nah, he is for sure better than Nash & Cousy were. There are probably a couple of others in the 60s and 70s too.

[tequila]

He will also be the youngest ever to win it at 22. Wes Unseld was 23. He is one of the most athletic players in the league. His potential is near limitless.

http://i.imgur.com/p5zFs.gif

[I'm Seriously]

Nah, he is for sure better than Nash & Cousy were. There are probably a couple of others in the 60s and 70s too.

Lolwut.

[T-bomb 25]

He will also be the youngest ever to win it at 22. Wes Unseld was 23. He is one of the most athletic players in the league. His potential is near limitless.

http://i.imgur.com/p5zFs.gifThis^:applause:

[sh0wtime]

If Rose wins it he will also be the 1st in NBA history to win it having lower than 4th best team record in the NBA.

No player has ever won it having worse than the 4th best team record and it happened only once a player won it having the 4th best team record and that player was Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaging 35-6-6.......

[kaiiu]

If Rose wins it he will also be the 1st in NBA history to win it having lower than 4th best team record in the NBA.

No player has ever won it having worse than the 4th best team record and it happened only once a player won it having the 4th best team record and that player was Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaging 35-6-6.......
thats what im saying will it be the least impressive season to ever win the award and here comes the Bulls fans.....Im a HUGE rose fan:confusedshrug:

[jasonresno]

If Rose wins it he will also be the 1st in NBA history to win it having lower than 4th best team record in the NBA.

No player has ever won it having worse than the 4th best team record and it happened only once a player won it having the 4th best team record and that player was Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaging 35-6-6.......
Season aint over yet! We're 2 games out of first with Miami looking weak and Boston shaking up their roster.

I'd prefer to see end of year statistics before I make a judgement.

[T-bomb 25]

thats what im saying will it be the least impressive season to ever win the award and here comes the Bulls fans.....Im a HUGE rose fan:confusedshrug:I think Dirk and Nash's MVP's were the least impressive....

[jasonresno]

I think if LBJ wins it with Wade and Bosh on his team that'll be even less impressive, IMO. Especially if they finish with a similar record as the Bulls.

[kaiiu]

I think Dirk and Nash's MVP's were the least impressive....

Dirk: 24.6/50%/41.6 3%/90% ft/3.4 and 67 wins

[T-bomb 25]

Rose should win followed by Dwight and Dirk,Lebron should be 4th....

[kaiiu]

I think if LBJ wins it with Wade and Bosh on his team that'll be even less impressive, IMO. Especially if they finish with a similar record as the Bulls.

I agree

[T-bomb 25]

Dirk: 24.6/50%/41.6 3%/90% ft/3.4 and 67 winsThats certainly a lot wins....:bowdown:

[kaiiu]

Thats certainly a lot wins....:bowdown:
yep, that was an impressive season by Dirk. :cheers:

[jrong]

I dont agree with worst player, perhaps less efficient, but not worse player.

He has been having a great season, Chicago is being Chicago mainly thanks to him. He is being very clutch and taking over games.

But the team is still lacking scoring hability, specially perimeter scoring, so Rose has to take more shots and take more scoring responsability than he should have to in a 100 % ideal situation.

No, Thib's defense is mainly the reason Chicago is Chicago. Look at Rose's shooting last night-- 9/24. That's typical Rose. Only the biggest homers can deny that he was only the third best player on the floor last night. Swap him for a more efficient, more dominant superstar, and the Bulls are favorites in the East.

My issues with Rose being MVP-- this early in his career in a season where there is no argument to be made that he's the best player in the league-- are the significance of the award in terms of history and legacy and then also the fact that he'll also get 1st team automatically along with it. Now you can argue between Kobe and Rose who merits one of the guard spots.

But, the thing is, both of them will get it, and Wade will get screwed even though he's outplaying both of them and the Heat have a better record than either the Lakers or the Bulls. If the voters even think before they automatically cast a ballot for Kobe, they will think to themselves that since Kobe is the Lakers #1 and Wade is perceived as LBJ's second, that Kobe should get the slot..

[T-bomb 25]

yep, that was an impressive season by Dirk. :cheers:But was that the year they went out in the 1st round?

[T-bomb 25]

Dirk averaged over 10rpg that year to....that was a very impressive MVP campaign...my mistake on that 1.:cheers: :applause: :bowdown:

[kaiiu]

But was that the year they went out in the 1st round?
yeah:lol

[Ruh-Roh]

Nothing Derrick Rose is doing right now is unimpressive. If anything, how people underrated him earlier and continue to do so, consequently overhypes him NOW by knee-jerk reactionists and band-wagoners. He really is that good though, & his impact on the Bulls is that significant.

And no, he would not be the worst player to win it.





Out of curiousity...
OP, where'd your 17 year old blackness go?:confusedshrug:

[T-bomb 25]

No, Thib's defense is mainly the reason Chicago is Chicago. Look at Rose's shooting last night-- 9/24. That's typical Rose. Only the biggest homers can deny that he was only the third best player on the floor last night. Swap him for a more efficient, more dominant superstar, and the Bulls are favorites in the East.

My issues with Rose being MVP-- this early in his career in a season where there is no argument to be made that he's the best player in the league-- are the significance of the award in terms of history and legacy and then also the fact that he'll also get 1st team automatically along with it. Now you can argue between Kobe and Rose who merits one of the guard spots.

But, the thing is, both of them will get it, and Wade will get screwed even though he's outplaying both of them and the Heat have a better record than either the Lakers or the Bulls. If the voters even think before they automatically cast a ballot for Kobe, they will think to themselves that since Kobe is the Lakers #1 and Wade is perceived as LBJ's second, that Kobe should get the slot..Naw dude his quickness and ability to get to hole and pass or shoot in clutch situations is not replaceable..your totally wrong...:no: :facepalm :wtf:

[kaiiu]

Nothing Derrick Rose is doing right now is unimpressive. If anything, how people underrated him earlier and continue to do so, consequently overhypes him NOW by knee-jerk reactionists and band-wagoners. He really is that good though, & his impact on the Bulls is that significant.

And no, he would not be the worst player to win it.





Out of curiousity...
OP, where'd your 17 year old blackness go?:confusedshrug:
the most racist line I have ever read:pimp:

[dwluv3333]

I don't understand why everyone uses stats to judge who should be the MVP. MVP is not an award given to the best player in the NBA. Michael Jordan would have won it at least 9 times in his career if that were the case. I didn't see anybody vouching for Kobe to win in 2006 when he was averaging over 35 ppg.

The people who are overrating Rose clearly don't watch the Bulls games. There's no way his teammates would be scoring as easily if Rose was not getting attention, penetrating and dishing. He's not the kind of player who will try to win by scoring a lot of points. The only reason the Bulls seem to have a worse record when Rose scores a lot of points is because he feels the need to turn it on since teammates are struggling. This is exactly what Kobe does.

And lets be honest, the game in the NBA has changed way too much for someone to adamantly say that Rose is worse than all of the players in that list. I'm sure OP would take Rose over Dave Cowens to build a team around ANY day.

[T-bomb 25]

yeah:lolI think choking in playoffs will always stop Dirk from winning MVP from here on out i think the voting will reflect that...without Butler im not entirely convinced they will get out of the 1st round this year...:lol

[kaiiu]

I think chocking in playoffs will always stop Dirk from winning MVP from here on out...without Butler im not entirely convinced they will get out of the 1st round this year...:lol
yep thats why if Lebron wins it:facepalm after what happened last year

[ginobli2311]

Dirk is the worst to ever win it.

LOL

[jasonresno]

No, Thib's defense is mainly the reason Chicago is Chicago. Look at Rose's shooting last night-- 9/24. That's typical Rose. Only the biggest homers can deny that he was only the third best player on the floor last night. Swap him for a more efficient, more dominant superstar, and the Bulls are favorites in the East.

My issues with Rose being MVP-- this early in his career in a season where there is no argument to be made that he's the best player in the league-- are the significance of the award in terms of history and legacy and then also the fact that he'll also get 1st team automatically along with it. Now you can argue between Kobe and Rose who merits one of the guard spots.

But, the thing is, both of them will get it, and Wade will get screwed even though he's outplaying both of them and the Heat have a better record than either the Lakers or the Bulls. If the voters even think before they automatically cast a ballot for Kobe, they will think to themselves that since Kobe is the Lakers #1 and Wade is perceived as LBJ's second, that Kobe should get the slot..
Rose is typically a 37% shooter?

Quit reading there. Rose is a 45%/35%/84% shooter.

Your opinion is null.

As well as point this out: Only player top 10 in both PPG/APG. Top 10 in the league in PAR (points assists rebounds). Top GUARD in the league in PAR. He's also one of only 5 or 6 people to average 25/8 in the last 30+ years. He's top 10 in PPG in the "clutch" (under 5 minutes, neither team up or down by more than 4 or 5) and is also top 11 in APG in the "clutch". He's also lead Bulls to come from behind wins 13 times when the Bulls entered the 4th quarter down.

So, yeah. He's typically a 37% shooter.

The hell you smoking?

[kputs]

If Roase wins MVP........... he will still lose in the 2nd round /thread you ******gers

[Pointguard]

If Rose wins it he will also be the 1st in NBA history to win it having lower than 4th best team record in the NBA.

No player has ever won it having worse than the 4th best team record and it happened only once a player won it having the 4th best team record and that player was Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaging 35-6-6.......
I keep telling you it happened twice. And it happened to a Laker that was on your screenname teams. Kareem won it with a loosing record in '76.

[T-bomb 25]

I like Rose to win the MVP,and with the Celtics getting rid of Perkins and relying on the old brittle O'neals their interior defense is no longer imposing,the Heats just missing to many pieces and their just not sorted with their offense, i like Chicago to come out of the east.....

[jrong]

Rose is typically a 37% shooter?

Quit reading there. Rose is a 45%/35%/84% shooter.

Your opinion is null.

As well as point this out: Only player top 10 in both PPG/APG. Top 10 in the league in PAR (points assists rebounds). Top GUARD in the league in PAR. He's also one of only 5 or 6 people to average 25/8 in the last 30+ years. He's top 10 in PPG in the "clutch" (under 5 minutes, neither team up or down by more than 4 or 5) and is also top 11 in APG in the "clutch". He's also lead Bulls to come from behind wins 13 times when the Bulls entered the 4th quarter down.

So, yeah. He's typically a 37% shooter.

The hell you smoking?

I mean he's typically an inefficient, volume shooter. He may not always be that poor. But, last year when he was shooting less, he was at 48%. It's difficult to maintain efficiency as usage increases. Only the very, very best players can do it.

The Iverson comparison has been well-worn, but the formula is the same. Iverson didn't deserve MVP in 01, and Rose doesn't deserve it this year. In both cases, the true MVP was the coach's defensive system.

LeBron James is still MVP.

[Javat_90]

yeah I should change my first post. I dont mean the " WORST" player to ever mean. Im talking the least impressive season

Alright, then I agree with you.

Although Iverson in 01 or Nash in 05, 06 werent that impressive either.

[jasonresno]

I mean he's typically an inefficient, volume shooter. He may not always be that poor. But, last year when he was shooting less, he was at 48%. It's difficult to maintain efficiency as usage increases. Only the very, very best players can do it.

The Iverson comparison has been well-worn, but the formula is the same. Iverson didn't deserve MVP in 01, and Rose doesn't deserve it this year. In both cases, the true MVP was the coach's defensive system.

LeBron James is still MVP.
45% is inefficient? 37% nights are more atypical than a 45%+

Just from raw numbers 45/35/85 looks pretty damn legit to me.

And LBJ really isn't. When you have two MVP candidates on one team, you really have 0.

[Harrison_Barnes]

He won't be the worst player to win it..

[hkfosho]

Won't be the worst player. Could be one of the worst efficient players to win it in terms of his stats... but I couldn't care less about that.

[Ruh-Roh]

the most racist line I have ever read:pimp:

No, it isn't & no, I'm not a racist. Shall I rephrase to "your celebratorily ignorant, urban/ebonics massacre of the English language"?

[Walduś]

no he won't, that title will forever belong to 09-10 mvp

[kaiiu]

No, it isn't & no, I'm not a racist. Shall I rephrase to "your celebratorily ignorant, urban/ebonics massacre of the English language"?
:rolleyes: racist

[chazzy]

I mean he's typically an inefficient, volume shooter. He may not always be that poor. But, last year when he was shooting less, he was at 48%. It's difficult to maintain efficiency as usage increases. Only the very, very best players can do it.
This is where Rose fans will like TS% :D in comparison to last season, his FG% is much lower and he appears to be a more inefficient scorer.. when in reality he's taking 4 times as many 3s at an improved percentage, and taking more freethrows at an improved percentage as well. Though those extra misses from the field do hurt the team and its offensive flow, he's actually scoring at a slightly better rate in total.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dirk is the worst to ever win it.

:wtf: 25/9/3, 50/42/90%, 61 TS% on a 67 win team


I think Dirk and Nash's MVP's were the least impressive....

The 2004 Suns were the 8th worst offensive team in the league and in 2005 with Nash, they were easily the best offensive team in the league. There were other factors as well like Amare and Joe Johnson being young players who will generally progress at that age, Amare being healthy for the whole season as opposed to '04 when he missed 27 games and to some extent, the addition of Quentin Richardson as well as playing under D'Antoni for a full season, but those players are shooters and finishers who thrived playing alongside Nash who was easily the main reason for their prolific offense. They won 62 games and they were just 2-5 without Nash.

In 2005, the Suns lost Amare and his 26 ppg and still remained the 2nd best offensive team in the league. Nash upped his scoring to a career high 18.9 ppg while leading the league in assists and TS% as the Suns won 54 games and they went 0-3 without Nash.

[Duncan21formvp]

If Rose wins he MVP will he be the worst player to ever win it. A ist of past MVPs

Pettit
Cousy
Chamberlain
Russell
Oscar
Unseld
Willis Reed
Lew Alcinder
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
M. Malone
Erving
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Hakeem
Dvid Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaq
AI
Duncan
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron

Im a big rose fan but imo he would be:confusedshrug:

His MVP would be more merited than Nash's

[magnax1]

LOL
How is that lol? 25-9 on 50% is ultra impressive now? No doubt his team won, but he as an individual was definitely the worst MVP, except maybe Unseld whos MVP utterly confuses me.
It's not like Dirk had some hidden impact behind his stats either. He was a below average defender and made no effort to get his team mates better looks. He was a really efficient low TO high % scorer, but people need to stop exaggerating how good he was.

[strifed169]

Nah, he is for sure better than Nash & Cousy were. There are probably a couple of others in the 60s and 70s too.

rose is pretty much allen iverson on a great team (permission to shot jack to lead team in scoring)

[ginobli2311]

How is that lol? 25-9 on 50% is ultra impressive now? No doubt his team won, but he as an individual was definitely the worst MVP, except maybe Unseld whos MVP utterly confuses me.
It's not like Dirk had some hidden impact behind his stats either. He was a below average defender and made no effort to get his team mates better looks. He was a really efficient low TO high % scorer, but people need to stop exaggerating how good he was.

are you talking the season or the player?

either way he's not the worst. nash is considerably worse than dirk both in his mvp seasons and as an overall player.

and many other players to win the award are worse all time and had worse seasons.

and yes, 25 points 9 boards 3 assists on 50%fg 42% threes 90%ft is insane. are you serious? that is legendary dude. those are straight up larry bird type numbers. and his team won ****ing 67 games.

and his 2nd best player was josh howard. sorry mate. its was a fantastic mvp year. not even close to the worst at all.

i could list all the worse seasons, but i'll just give you one. karl malone won in 99 putting up 24/10/4 and his team went 37-13....LOL dirk's team lost only 15 games all year. and malone's team loses 13 out of 50.....and dirk scored more points and was more efficient. how is that better again? oh wait....its not.

[magnax1]

are you talking the season or the player?

either way he's not the worst. nash is considerably worse than dirk both in his mvp seasons and as an overall player.

and many other players to win the award are worse all time and had worse seasons.

and yes, 25 points 9 boards 3 assists on 50%fg 42% threes 90%ft is insane. are you serious? that is legendary dude. those are straight up larry bird type numbers. and his team won ****ing 67 games.

and his 2nd best player was josh howard. sorry mate. its was a fantastic mvp year. not even close to the worst at all.
Larry Bird #s are 30-10-6 with better defense. And Nash was a much better player. 19 points on much more insane efficiency, best passer of the 00's by a pretty huge margin, and at least the equivalent of Dirk in crunch time. If you want to see Nash's impact you only need to see how much Amare has dropped off this season, and that's only one of 12 players.

[ginobli2311]

Larry Bird #s are 30-10-6 with better defense. And Nash was a much better player. 19 points on much more insane efficiency, best passer of the 00's by a pretty huge margin, and at least the equivalent of Dirk in crunch time. If you want to see Nash's impact you only need to see how much Amare has dropped off this season, and that's only one of 12 players.

i said larry bird type player. and sorry...ask any nba historian or anyone with brain on here and not one of them will rank nash all time ahead of dirk. no ****ing way.

nash vs dirk in the clutch? dirk is better....

and amare dropping off? not really. his fg% is down because he's taking more shots and he's on a worse team. LOL at the idea that amare has gotten noticeably worse without nash. simply not true.

whatever dude. dirk is not the worst mvp at all. its actually not close.

[magnax1]

i said larry bird type player. and sorry...ask any nba historian or anyone with brain on here and not one of them will rank nash all time ahead of dirk. no ****ing way.

nash vs dirk in the clutch? dirk is better....

and amare dropping off? not really. his fg% is down because he's taking more shots and he's on a worse team. LOL at the idea that amare has gotten noticeably worse without nash. simply not true.

whatever dude. dirk is not the worst mvp at all. its actually not close.
Are you shitting your brain out? Amare hasn't gotten much worse? 56%-50% and 1 more turnover a game. That pretty says it all. And really the team isn't worse other then Nash being gone. It's not like a cast of Felton Galinari Chandler and Fields is any worse then Nash Richardson, Hill and Frye. Excluding Nash vs. Felton.
Dirk and Nash are pretty close all time, only because Nash's first half of his career he wasn't to terribly spectacular, except his last 2 years in Dallas. But unless you really only value scoring, there is no case for Dirk over Nash peak vs peak. Dirk averages 5 more points a game, and Nash makes up for that a thousand times through his passing. Hell, Nash averaged 24 points a game in the playoffs on his best playoff run.

[Cangri]

Even the NBA is making up things that never happened, look at the site

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3734/nbamvp.jpg

"Rose clutch jumper over James cements Bulls' victory", how can they even lie like that?
They are making it look like it was an MVP caliber game from Rose when it really wasnt.

[strike]

how is he a less worthy winner than nash

[ginobli2311]

Are you shitting your brain out? Amare hasn't gotten much worse? 56%-50% and 1 more turnover a game. That pretty says it all. And really the team isn't worse other then Nash being gone. It's not like a cast of Felton Galinari Chandler and Fields is any worse then Nash Richardson, Hill and Frye. Excluding Nash vs. Felton.
Dirk and Nash are pretty close all time, only because Nash's first half of his career he wasn't to terribly spectacular, except his last 2 years in Dallas. But unless you really only value scoring, there is no case for Dirk over Nash peak vs peak. Dirk averages 5 more points a game, and Nash makes up for that a thousand times through his passing. Hell, Nash averaged 24 points a game in the playoffs on his best playoff run.

dude. amare is taking 4 more shots a game playing on a worse team as the number 1 option. of course his fg% is going to drop. its simple logic.

you act like nash made a player that is averaging 26 points per game on 51% shooting without him. LOL

but this is about being the worst mvp. and not only did dirk put up great numbers, but he led his team to 67 wins and his 2nd best player was josh freaking howard. LOL

what did nash do? he won 62 games in 05 with amare/marion/johnson...while putting up 16 and 12 and being probably the worst defender in the league.

you keep calling out dirk for his defense....and he's not nearly as bad as you say, but steve nash might be the worst guard defender of the last 15 years. i honestly can't think of a worse defender than nash that i've seen this era.

[Walduś]

are you talking the season or the player?

either way he's not the worst. nash is considerably worse than dirk both in his mvp seasons and as an overall player.

and many other players to win the award are worse all time and had worse seasons.

and yes, 25 points 9 boards 3 assists on 50%fg 42% threes 90%ft is insane. are you serious? that is legendary dude. those are straight up larry bird type numbers. and his team won ****ing 67 games.

and his 2nd best player was josh howard. sorry mate. its was a fantastic mvp year. not even close to the worst at all.

i could list all the worse seasons, but i'll just give you one. karl malone won in 99 putting up 24/10/4 and his team went 37-13....LOL dirk's team lost only 15 games all year. and malone's team loses 13 out of 50.....and dirk scored more points and was more efficient. how is that better again? oh wait....its not.
:applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

How is that lol? 25-9 on 50% is ultra impressive now? No doubt his team won, but he as an individual was definitely the worst MVP, except maybe Unseld whos MVP utterly confuses me.
It's not like Dirk had some hidden impact behind his stats either. He was a below average defender and made no effort to get his team mates better looks. He was a really efficient low TO high % scorer, but people need to stop exaggerating how good he was.

Actually, Dirk improved as a passer and his defense wasn't below average by that point, a lot of people talked about his improvement in that area.

His MVP made all of the sense in the world at the time based on it being a regular season award. Admittedly, I thought Nash was the MVP that year at the time, but in hindsight, Dirk was the correct choice.

How many players have the ability to put up 25 ppg on that ty of efficiency? The list is very short and then factor in what a mismatch Dirk was and how he was one of the best players in crunch time. Not to mention that Dirk is one of the least turnover prone stars of all time, factor in his TS% and efficient shooting from all areas and his efficiency was mindblowing.

Dirk was also a better rebounder at the time then you'd think by his per game average. He played on the 3rd slowest team in the league and due to his team's dominance, he didn't have to play as many minutes as some other superstars, plus he was an excellent defensive rebounder, due to his offensive game which was mostly mid-range, he wasn't in position for that many offensive rebounds. And due to Diop and Dampier being excellent offensive rebounders, his team didn't need him on the offensive glass.

Here are some much more puzzling MVP selections.

1969- Wes Unseld
1970- Willis Reed over Kareem
1973- Dave Cowens over Kareem
1979- Moses Malone over Kareem
1990- Magic Johnson over Michael Jordan
1997- Karl Malone over Michael Jordan
2001- Allen Iverson over Shaq and Tim Duncan

[magnax1]

dude. amare is taking 4 more shots a game playing on a worse team as the number 1 option. of course his fg% is going to drop. its simple logic.
And he wasn't the first option in Phoenix? Really, that makes no sense, the only difference is Nash.

you act like nash made a player that is averaging 26 points per game on 51% shooting without him. LOL
No, but he made him much better. There is a big difference in 25 ppg on 56% with 2.5 TO vs 26 on 51% with 3.5 TO

but this is about being the worst mvp. and not only did dirk put up great numbers, but he led his team to 67 wins and his 2nd best player was josh freaking howard. LOL
Like having Josh Howard is terrible? That team was talented, and they had one of the best coaches in the league. Dirk played well, but 67 wins does not make him a better player. He even played better the year before,

what did nash do? he won 62 games in 05 with amare/marion/johnson...while putting up 16 and 12 and being probably the worst defender in the league.
Exaggeration of the century. Nash is a terrible defender, but Dirk wasn't much better until he got Avery as a coach. And 19-12 on 64% TS is a lot better then Dirk's best of 27-9 on 59% TS. It's like you don't even understand the concept of team play. Dirk stands at the top of the FT line and Isos, or comes off screens or spots up. His play doesn't make his team mates better, he wasn't a good passer. He as a scorer, yes a good one, but he was a poor defender, and never a special rebounder. I'm sorry, but a guy who is about equal to Tom Chambers in his best season is not that spectacular.
Nash made every single player that came to the Suns considerably better. On top of that he gets 19 points on some of the best efficiency in the whole league, not just at the PG position. The only criticism of Nash you can make is his poor individual defense, but don't deny that playing for nelson and Dantoni your whole career makes you look worse then you really are.

you keep calling out dirk for his defense....and he's not nearly as bad as you say, but steve nash might be the worst guard defender of the last 15 years. i honestly can't think of a worse defender than nash that i've seen this era.
Dirk is a pathetic defender. He's gotten better the past 5 years, but he's still at his very best below average.

1969- Wes Unseld
1970- Willis Reed over Kareem
1973- Dave Cowens over Kareem
1979- Moses Malone over Kareem
1990- Magic Johnson over Michael Jordan
1997- Karl Malone over Michael Jordan
2001- Allen Iverson over Shaq and Tim Duncan
I'd say those are worse selections, excluding 79 and 01, but none of those guys were worse individual players except Unseld.

[konex]

He's a better player than Nash who won twice on a loaded team lol

[ginobli2311]

And he wasn't the first option in Phoenix? Really, that makes no sense, the only difference is Nash.

No, but he made him much better. There is a big difference in 25 ppg on 56% with 2.5 TO vs 26 on 51% with 3.5 TO

Like having Josh Howard is terrible? That team was talented, and they had one of the best coaches in the league. Dirk played well, but 67 wins does not make him a better player. He even played better the year before,

Exaggeration of the century. Nash is a terrible defender, but Dirk wasn't much better until he got Avery as a coach. And 19-12 on 64% TS is a lot better then Dirk's best of 27-9 on 59% TS. It's like you don't even understand the concept of team play. Dirk stands at the top of the FT line and Isos, or comes off screens or spots up. His play doesn't make his team mates better, he wasn't a good passer. He as a scorer, yes a good one, but he was a poor defender, and never a special rebounder. I'm sorry, but a guy who is about equal to Tom Chambers in his best season is not that spectacular.
Nash made every single player that came to the Suns considerably better. On top of that he gets 19 points on some of the best efficiency in the whole league, not just at the PG position. The only criticism of Nash you can make is his poor individual defense, but don't deny that playing for nelson and Dantoni your whole career makes you look worse then you really are.

Dirk is a pathetic defender. He's gotten better the past 5 years, but he's still at his very best below average.


sorry dude. you are wrong. dirk isn't a great defender, but he is a very good defensive rebounder...especially in the playoffs. and rebounding is a huge part of defense.

comparing nash and dirk defensively is just a joke. honestly.....name a worse defensive guard than nash. he's weak, he can't rebound, he can't stay in front of anyone, he's easily screened, he can't bother a shot, big guards can abuse him in the post......honestly....i don't know if i've seen a worse defender at pg that has stayed in the league more than a few years.

i love nash, but he's a pretty horrid defender. one of the worst at his position ever.

[magnax1]

sorry dude. you are wrong. dirk isn't a great defender, but he is a very good defensive rebounder...especially in the playoffs. and rebounding is a huge part of defense.
Rebounding isn't part of defense. It's rebounding. It's part of ball possession, which has as much to do with offense as defense.

comparing nash and dirk defensively is just a joke. honestly.....name a worse defensive guard than nash. he's weak, he can't rebound, he can stay in front of anyone, he's easily screened, he can't bother a shot, big guards can abuse him in the post......honestly....i don't know if i've seen a worse defender at pg that has stayed in the league more than a few years.

Dirk looked just as bad as Nash under Nelson on defense. And Magic was a worse defender then Nash, though he wasn't exactly a PG in the same sense, but for whatever reason he never gets criticized for his defense. Nash also used to be a pretty good rebounder for his position.

[ginobli2311]

Rebounding isn't part of defense. It's rebounding. It's part of ball possession, which has as much to do with offense as defense.

Dirk looked just as bad as Nash under Nelson on defense. And Magic was a worse defender then Nash, though he wasn't exactly a PG in the same sense, but for whatever reason he never gets criticized for his defense. Nash also used to be a pretty good rebounder for his position.

you lose all cred there. defensive rebounding absolutely is a part of defense. you don't get the stop until you secure the ball. and dirk is an excellent DEFENSIVE REBOUNDER....especially in the playoffs:

dirk has a 25.1 defensive rebound percentage in the playoffs

lets compare that to some great rebounders:

kg 25.9
duncan 25.8
shaq 23.4
rodman 26.2
hakeem 22.4

pretty lofty company. and again. securing defensive boards is absolutely a part of defense.

[konex]

Rebounding isn't part of defense. It's rebounding. It's part of ball possession, which has as much to do with offense as defense.

Defensive rebound is part of defense since you haven't fully defended against a shot till you secure the rebound

[ginobli2311]

Defensive rebound is part of defense since you haven't fully defended against a shot till you secure the rebound

exactly. its actually a pretty damn big part of defense.

[magnax1]

you lose all cred there. defensive rebounding absolutely is a part of defense. you don't get the stop until you secure the ball. and dirk is an excellent DEFENSIVE REBOUNDER....especially in the playoffs:
Have you ever played BBall? Rebounding is just as much part of offense. Boxing out, and getting offensive rebounds. Ball possession is not defense. You can push it into that category for no reason, but it really doesn't make any sense. You aren't guarding another player when you rebound, you're gaining possesion for offense. So you could say it's offense if you wanted to.

[ginobli2311]

Have you ever played BBall? Rebounding is just as much part of offense. Boxing out, and getting offensive rebounds. Ball possession is not defense. You can push it into that category for no reason, but it really doesn't make any sense. You aren't guarding another player when you rebound, you're gaining possesion for offense. So you could say it's offense if you wanted to.

nobody will agree with your assertion.

i've played and coached basketball...and boxing out and securing boards is every bit as important as being able to guard a man. sorry....you wont' get any support on this as you shouldn't.

you've just limited your view of defense far too much. its far broader than you think i guess.

[BankShot]

Rose could end up being better than 1/2 that list by the time he is done. You have know way of predicting how good he will be.

Which half???

[I'm Seriously]

He's a better player than Nash who won twice on a loaded team lol

Lolwut.

Rose isn't even better than Nash now, let alone when he won those MVP's.

And how exactly were the 06 Suns loaded?

[jasonresno]

Lolwut.

Rose isn't even better than Nash now, let alone when he won those MVP's.

And how exactly were the 06 Suns loaded?
Rose 2011> Nash 2011

[I'm Seriously]

Rose 2011> Nash 2011

Nope.

[jasonresno]

Nope.
Yeah. Do you know how many players have put up 25 ppg and 8 apg in the last thirty years?

It's a very short list. And I'll give you two of the five as a hint: Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

[I'm Seriously]

Yeah. Do you know how many players have put up 25 ppg and 8 apg in the last thirty years?

It's a very short list.

Do you know how many people have ever averaged 11+ assists while also having percentages of 50/40/90?

Only one man. Oh, and did I mention this would be his third year with such a feet?

[jasonresno]

Do you know how many people have ever averaged 11+ assists while also having percentages of 50/40/90?

Only one man. Oh, and did I mention this would be his third year with such a feet?
Answer my question. Or are you stumped?

So take the fact that Rose is averaging #s that have only been done by 4 other players (and hall of famers, not counting LBJ) and combine it with the fact that his team is about to make a push for the 1st seed in the eastern conference as well as pointing out that Rose is so much better at D than Nash and you have enough justification to put Rose = Nash or Rose > Nash without even blinking.

And before you resort to it: Advanced statistics are the last straws grasped for a failed argument.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Dirk is the worst to ever win it.
:lol

[Glide2keva]

Answer my question. Or are you stumped?

So take the fact that Rose is averaging #s that have only been done by 4 other players (and hall of famers, not counting LBJ) and combine it with the fact that his team is about to make a push for the 1st seed in the eastern conference as well as pointing out that Rose is so much better at D than Nash and you have enough justification to put Rose = Nash or Rose > Nash without even blinking.

And before you resort to it: Advanced statistics are the last straws grasped for a failed argument.
No matter how many times I say that, they never get it.

prepares for TS%, eFG, PER, win shares, +/-, per 40, 36, 32, etc.

[magnax1]

nobody will agree with your assertion.
Doesn't make it any less true.

i've played and coached basketball...and boxing out and securing boards is every bit as important as being able to guard a man. sorry....you wont' get any support on this as you shouldn't.
Never said it was less important, I said that it's not defense. Grabbing a rebound affects offense as much as defense. You limit their possession and gain a possession. It's rather close minded to think of it as defense when it has a broader effect on the game.

you've just limited your view of defense far too much. its far broader than you think i guess.
Like I said, It's not defense, it's not offense either. It affects offense just as much as defense, so there is no reason to call it defense.

[ginobli2311]

Doesn't make it any less true.

Never said it was less important, I said that it's not defense. Grabbing a rebound affects offense as much as defense. You limit their possession and gain a possession. It's rather close minded to think of it as defense when it has a broader effect on the game.

Like I said, It's not defense, it's not offense either. It affects offense just as much as defense, so there is no reason to call it defense.

like we have said.

its part of defense because it ends the possession for the other team. you can't be a good defensive team and not secure enough rebounds to get stops. its ultimately the same thing.

if you want to argue semantics that is fine....

[I'm Seriously]

So take the fact that Rose is averaging #s that have only been done by 4 other players (and hall of famers, not counting LBJ)

It's really impressive that he's doing something that has been only been done by all time greats. But I seem to remember people hyping Tyreke Evans for also doing something that was only done by all time greats.


and combine it with the fact that his team is about to make a push for the 1st seed in the eastern conference

The Bulls have the record they have now because of defense, while Rose isnt even the Bulls best defender. The Suns however have the Record they have now because of offense, and Nash is easily there best offensive player.


as well as pointing out that Rose is so much better at D than Nash

I'd also like to point out the fact that Nash is so much better on offense.


you have enough justification to put Rose = Nash or Rose > Nash without even blinking.

Those previous points i made give me enough justification to put Nash over Rose rather easily.

[magnax1]

like we have said.

its part of defense because it ends the possession for the other team. you can't be a good defensive team and not secure enough rebounds to get stops. its ultimately the same thing.

if you want to argue semantics that is fine....
And you can't score unless you secure the ball. You can't be a good offensive team when you give the ball to the other team. So why is it that when it equally affects the offense, rebounding is defense?

[jasonresno]

Rose is a great offensive player and a good defensive player. Nash is a great offensive player and a shit defensive player. Nash isn't so much better than Rose that it negates his awful defense.

Rose>Nash

Rose is just a much more complete player and isn't bad at anything.

It's really impressive that he's doing something that has been only been done by all time greats. But I seem to remember people hyping Tyreke Evans for also doing something that was only done by all time greats.



The Bulls have the record they have now because of defense, while Rose isnt even the Bulls best defender. The Suns however have the Record they have now because of offense, and Nash is easily there best offensive player.



I'd also like to point out the fact that Nash is so much better on offense.



Those previous points i made give me enough justification to put Nash over Rose rather easily.

[I'm Seriously]

Rose is a great offensive player and a good defensive player. Nash is a great offensive player and a shit defensive player. Nash isn't so much better than Rose that it negates his awful defense.

Rose>Nash

Rose is just a much more complete player and isn't bad at anything.

Nash isn't just a "great offensive player", he's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

The gap in there offense probably isn't as big as the gap in there defense but, I value a PG offense alot more than a PG's defense.

So it's rather easy for me to put Nash over Rose.

Nash>Rose

[donald_trump]

rose is a shit defensive player. stop lying.

and yes, he would be the worst mvp ever, by a good distance as well.

he's won a total of 2 player of the week awards, and he hasnt even won a player of the month. most likely won't this month either seeing as lebron put up better stats and had a better record.

[Bigsmoke]

I bet Rose will get mad praise 5 years from now if he wins this MVP.

[Go Getter]

Nash isn't just a "great offensive player", he's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

The gap in there offense probably isn't as big as the gap in there defense but, I value a PG offense alot more than a PG's defense.

So it's rather easy for me to put Nash over Rose.

Nash>Rose
Nash isn't in the top 20 all time best offensive players.

Shooters yes, but not impact players on the offensive end.

He doesn't have the resume beyond stats.

[Rose]

Nash isn't in the top 20 all time best offensive players.

Shooters yes, but not impact players on the offensive end.

He doesn't have the resume beyond stats.
In all honesty I can't think of 20 other offensive better players.

[jasonresno]

rose is a shit defensive player. stop lying.

and yes, he would be the worst mvp ever, by a good distance as well.

he's won a total of 2 player of the week awards, and he hasnt even won a player of the month. most likely won't this month either seeing as lebron put up better stats and had a better record.
This isn't 2008 anymore brah. He's a legit defender.

[chazzy]

Nash isn't in the top 20 all time best offensive players.

Shooters yes, but not impact players on the offensive end.

He doesn't have the resume beyond stats.
:oldlol: Wow..

[GatorKid117]

:oldlol: Wow..

I chuckled as well. Talk about complete ignorance.

[Jacks3]

Nash isn't just a "great offensive player", he's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

The gap in there offense probably isn't as big as the gap in there defense but, I value a PG offense alot more than a PG's defense.

So it's rather easy for me to put Nash over Rose.

Nash>Rose
This.

[I'm Seriously]

Nash isn't in the top 20 all time best offensive players.

Shooters yes, but not impact players on the offensive end.

He doesn't have the resume beyond stats.

Are you Serious?

Nash is one of the greatest shooters ever,(arguably the greatest) one of the best passers ever(Imo only second to Magic) one of the greatest handles ever, a good scorer, cluth as hell, and most importantly is one of the most ridiculous offensive anchors ever.

You wanna talk about impact? Nash was part of either the 1st or 2nd best offense in the league throughout the entire decade, and in his peak ran the second greatest offensive dynasty ever.(only behind the Showtime Lakers)

And this year where he has poop around him is anchoring the 7th best offense in the league.

Nash is one of the most impactful offensive players ever.

Just GTFO.

[Go Getter]

Just because you go 10 for 10 for the game it doesn't mean that you are better than they guy who goes 4-10 and hits clutch shots down the stretch.

The whole offense is predicated on Nash dribbling around and trying to find someone.

Whoop de do....it looks good and puts up good numbers but doesn't ....hasn't won a damn thing.

MJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Oscar
Malone
KAJ
Kobe
Gervin
Archibald
Dawkins
Thomas

The list goes on...

Basketball is about getting the job done not notching pretty stats.

Tell me what Nash has done to be put on the level of all time greats?

...Besides egg head stats.....

Nash is up there in terms of effectiveness, but damn effectiveness give me rings and wins.

[Go Getter]

Are you Serious?

Nash is one of the greatest shooters ever,(arguably the greatest) one of the best passers ever(Imo only second to Magic) one of the greatest handles ever, a good scorer, cluth as hell, and most importantly is one of the most ridiculous offensive anchors ever.

You wanna talk about impact? Nash was part of either the 1st or 2nd best offense in the league throughout the entire decade, and in his peak ran the second greatest offensive dynasty ever.(only behind the Showtime Lakers)

And this year where he has poop around him is anchoring the 7th best offense in the league.

Nash is one of the most impactful offensive players ever.

Just GTFO.

One of the greatest SHOOTERS, no doubt, but shit, there are many PGs that could lead a sub par team to a 7th ranked offense when they don't have to stick defense.

As far as offensive impact he is not up there with prime Shaq, MJ, Wilt, KAJ, Malone, etc.

Nash is not much better offensive than KJ....I'd put KJ right there with him as far as Suns PGs.

And his passing is great but idk how much better it is than the likes of Thomas, Skiles, Kidd...

And Nash leads the league in passes stolen almost every year, quit acting as if he's flawless.

[chazzy]

Just because you go 10 for 10 for the game it doesn't mean that you are better than they guy who goes 4-10 and hits clutch shots down the stretch.

Nash is up there in terms of effectiveness, but damn effectiveness give me rings and wins.
You do know offense is just one side of the game right? WTF do rings have to do with how well you run an offense?

[Go Getter]

You do know offense is just one side of the game right? WTF do rings have to do with how well you run an offense?
Because Nash led teams always concentrate or emphasize offense at the expense of defense.

Take a ****ing break from running all around on o and buckle down on d as well.

It was more of an overall criticism.

Nash is definitely one of the best shooters of all time but so is Steve Kerr......it doesn't make you one of the best on o necessarily.

[chazzy]

Nash is definitely one of the best shooters of all time but so is Steve Kerr......it doesn't make you one of the best on o necessarily.
Holy crap man, Nash's shooting complements his elite playmaking/passing. Terrible analogy

[LastChanceToWin]

The Bulls couldn't even beat the Raptors a few games back. He definitely can't win MVP.

[I'm Seriously]

Just because you go 10 for 10 for the game it doesn't mean that you are better than they guy who goes 4-10 and hits clutch shots down the stretch.

The whole offense is predicated on Nash dribbling around and trying to find someone.

Whoop de do....it looks good and puts up good numbers but doesn't ....hasn't won a damn thing.
MJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Oscar
Malone
KAJ
Kobe
Gervin
Archibald
Dawkins
Thomas

The list goes on...

Basketball is about getting the job done not notching pretty stats.

Tell me what Nash has done to be put on the level of all time greats?

...Besides egg head stats.....

Nash is up there in terms of effectiveness, but damn effectiveness give me rings and wins.

I agree with the bolded.

Wasn't there a thread a couple of days ago that proved Nash to be one of the best cluth players in the past seven years?

Your point? the Nash "dribbling around to find open guys" has produced some of the greatest offenses ever.

The Suns not winning has nothing to do with offense, they were routinely the best offense in the league.(and some of the greatest offenses ever) They never won because of defense, and rebounding.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: At Isiah Thomas being better than Nash offensively.

He's arguably the greatest shooter ever, on the greatest passers ever, and has anchored some of the greatest offenses ever. That is more than enough to put him "on the level of the all time greats"

[InspiredLebowski]

Anyone who's handy with Basketball Reference or something able to come up with a list of what year in their career past MVPs have been? Could be interesting to look at.

[dannysc305]

Rose is typically a 37% shooter?

Quit reading there. Rose is a 45%/35%/84% shooter.

Your opinion is null.

As well as point this out: Only player top 10 in both PPG/APG. Top 10 in the league in PAR (points assists rebounds). Top GUARD in the league in PAR. He's also one of only 5 or 6 people to average 25/8 in the last 30+ years. He's top 10 in PPG in the "clutch" (under 5 minutes, neither team up or down by more than 4 or 5) and is also top 11 in APG in the "clutch". He's also lead Bulls to come from behind wins 13 times when the Bulls entered the 4th quarter down.

So, yeah. He's typically a 37% shooter.

The hell you smoking?

LeBron James says hi.

[Go Getter]

I agree with the bolded.

Wasn't there a thread a couple of days ago that proved Nash to be one of the best cluth players in the past seven years?

Your point? the Nash "dribbling around to find open guys" has produced some of the greatest offenses ever.

The Suns not winning has nothing to do with offense, they were routinely the best offense in the league.(and some of the greatest offenses ever) They never won because of defense, and rebounding.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: At Isiah Thomas being better than Nash offensively.

He's arguably the greatest shooter ever, on the greatest passers ever, and has anchored some of the greatest offenses ever. That is more than enough to put him "on the level of the all time greats"

The best offenses win championships or at least get close.

And there is no right or wrong answer to questions like these so I give a hearty guttural laugh to your assertion that it has been proven that Nash is this or that.

I don't care for his game. I like winners like Zeke.

Doesn't matter who makes the shot or pass....let's get this win.

[catch24]

The worst? I don't know about that, but he'd definitely be on the low end of that list.

[I'm Seriously]

Because Nash led teams always concentrate or emphasize offense at the expense of defense.

Take a ****ing break from running all around on o and buckle down on d as well.

This is a complete mith, the SSOL Suns were routinely average on defense. They never just let people score so they could get the ball back.


Nash is definitely one of the best shooters of all time but so is Steve Kerr......it doesn't make you one of the best on o necessarily.

That is a horrible anolgy, Nash isn't just a great shooter, he's one of the greatest playmakers ever, while also being one of the greatest offensive anchors ever. And that's not even mentioning his great handle, incredible cluth play, and good scoring ability.

[Go Getter]

Holy crap man, Nash's shooting complements his elite playmaking/passing. Terrible analogy


How is it a terrible analogy?

Tiny Archibald led the league in scoring and assists and no one is building him a monument.

Nash is a great player, but not an all time great offensive player by any means because he hasn't got it done when it mattered.

Zeke led a team to a title more than once as the main man of course his numbers won't be as good as someone who plays for stats and not championships.

[I'm Seriously]

Anyone who's handy with Basketball Reference or something able to come up with a list of what year in their career past MVPs have been? Could be interesting to look at.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html

[InspiredLebowski]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.htmlRight, but I don't want to go look up a list of 35+ guys and see how old they were as rookies and do the mental math. I'm lazy.

[Go Getter]

This is a complete mith, the SSOL Suns were routinely average on defense. They never just let people score so they could get the ball back.



That is a horrible anolgy, Nash isn't just a great shooter, he's one of the greatest playmakers ever, while also being one of the greatest offensive anchors ever. And that's not even mentioning his great handle, incredible cluth play, and good scoring ability.
KJ was just as clutch, hit big shots, had an awesome handle, was a better score, and played better D.


KJ>Nash?

I don't think so.

It's deeper than you make it seem.

[chazzy]

The best offenses win championships or at least get close.

They lost to the champs in the WCF in both 05, 07, and '10 :confusedshrug:

Why are you putting so much value in rings when discussing solely offense? That doesn't take into account teammates or defense at all.

[I'm Seriously]

KJ was just as clutch, hit big shots, had an awesome handle, was a better score, and played better D.


KJ>Nash?

I don't think so.

It's deeper than you make it seem.

Offensively the only thing KJ did better than Nash was score.

Nash was a better playmaker, Nash was more cluth, and a far better shooter.

[jasonresno]

LeBron James says hi.
I don't know what he wants to talk about:

LBJ
Ranks #13 in the NBA in Assists Per Game (7.2)

[Go Getter]

Offensively the only thing KJ did better than Nash was score.

Nash was a better playmaker, Nash was more cluth, and a far better shooter.
Making plays is not only passing, you can make plays for yourself.

And idk if Nash was more clutch or had more heart than KJ.

[Go Getter]

They lost to the champs in the WCF in both 05, 07, and '10 :confusedshrug:

Why are you putting so much value in rings when discussing solely offense? That doesn't take into account teammates or defense at all.


That's another thing I dislike about Nash proponents.

When his teammates do well he gets the credit, and when they don't do well they are holding him back somehow.

The Suns adopted a running style to suit Nash.

So he is partly to blame for their poor d and lack of playoff success.

[I'm Seriously]

How is it a terrible analogy?

It's a terrible anology because you basically said "Kerr was one of the greatest shooters ever, doesn't mean he was one of the greatest offensive players" that's idiotic because Nash doesn't only give you all time great shooting ability, but all time great passing ability, and all time great ability to run an offense.


Tiny Archibald led the league in scoring and assists and no one is building him a monument.

Nash is a great player, but not an all time great offensive player by any means because he hasn't got it done when it mattered.

Zeke led a team to a title more than once as the main man of course his numbers won't be as good as someone who plays for stats and not championships.

Just stop it.

[chazzy]

That's another thing I dislike about Nash proponents.

When his teammates do well he gets the credit, and when they don't do well they are holding him back somehow.

The Suns adopted a running style to suit Nash.

So he is partly to blame for their poor d and lack of playoff success.
What does that have to do with his offensive ability?

[Go Getter]

It's a terrible anology because you basically said "Kerr was one of the greatest shooters ever, doesn't mean he was one of the greatest offensive players" that's idiotic because Nash doesn't only give you all time great shooting ability, but all time great passing ability, and all time great ability to run an offense.



Just stop it.


His passing is fine but one or two offensive aspects don't make you an all time great.

Rondo is an elite defender and passer but not an all time great PG.

I don't think running around all day until someone gets open is so great but I don't deny his greatness as an offensive player.

However, there are PLENTY of players that use their offensive talents to get more wins than Nash and that is what counts to me.

Nash's ability to run an offense is like Mark Jackson and Scott Skiles. People are making him put to be Magic and he is far from it.

[donald_trump]

lol at nash playing for stats. dude plays like 33mpg and in certain games doesnt take more than 5 or 6 shots.

nash isn't even close to being the worst mvp winner.

[Go Getter]

What does that have to do with his offensive ability?
The Suns ran for years and concentrated on o with little regards for d as long as they got a lot of shots up.

They just jacked threes and quick shots.

D and O go hand and hand especially when you play the style that they adopted.

[Go Getter]

lol at nash playing for stats. dude plays like 33mpg and in certain games doesnt take more than 5 or 6 shots.

nash isn't even close to being the worst mvp winner.
He's not playing for titles so what is he playing for? Lol

[donald_trump]

His passing is fine but one or two offensive aspects don't make you an all time great.

Rondo is an elite defender and passer but not an all time great PG.

I don't think running around all day until someone gets open is so great but I don't deny his greatness as an offensive player.

However, there are PLENTY of players that use their offensive talents to get more wins than Nash and that is what counts to me.

Nash's amity to run an offense is like Mark Jackson and Scott Skiles. People are making him put to be Magic and he is far from it.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

you cant be serious. you like players who get more wins? nash turned phoenix around in 04-05. he added something like 40 odd wins that season.

nash is a lot like magic, and a lot closer to it than most point guards. they display very similar strengths and weaknesses as players.

[I'm Seriously]

That's another thing I dislike about Nash proponents.

When his teammates do well he gets the credit, and when they don't do well they are holding him back somehow.

The Suns adopted a running style to suit Nash.

So he is partly to blame for their poor d and lack of playoff success.

Nash should get most of the credit for the Suns great offense.

JJ's gone, Amare's gone, Marion's gone....but guess what the Suns are still one of the best offenses in the league.

Nash should not get blamed for the Suns lack of defense because...

1: A PG job is in no way too anchor a defense, so he should not get blamed for them being bad defensively

2: PG's don't have that much impact defensively whether there good defenders or not.

3: He was in no way the only guy who didn't play defense.

So if you run, than you automatically don't play defense? I guess no one in the 80's played defense, considering everyone ran then.

And since when did being an average defensive team mean you didn't play defense at all?

[donald_trump]

He's not playing for titles so what is he playing for? Lol

what was gary payton playing for as the man all those years?
how about jason kidd?
how about stockton?
how about kevin johnson?

all just stats, right?
you have so many flaws in your argument, if thats what you even want to call it, that its comical.

[Go Getter]

what was gary payton playing for as the man all those years?
how about jason kidd?
how about stockton?
how about kevin johnson?

all just stats, right?
you have so many flaws in your argument, if thats what you even want to call it, that its comical.
It's comical that you took a facetious statement so seriously.

Nash is a great guy and player from what I can tell I'd say he was playing for the love of the game and the hope that he can get a ring.

Calm down cupcake.



Funny though....all the players listed have a ring or have been to the finals.

[Go Getter]

Nash should get most of the credit for the Suns great offense.

JJ's gone, Amare's gone, Marion's gone....but guess what the Suns are still one of the best offenses in the league.

Nash should not get blamed for the Suns lack of defense because...

1: A PG job is in no way too anchor a defense, so he should not get blamed for them being bad defensively

2: PG's don't have that much impact defensively whether there good defenders or not.

3: He was in no way the only guy who didn't play defense.

So if you run, than you automatically don't play defense? I guess no one in the 80's played defense, considering everyone ran then.

And since when did being an average defensive team mean you didn't play defense at all?


Lmao at your excuses.

The Suns adopted a run and gun style to suit Nash, the undisputed leader of the team.

Give him all the credit for wins and the positives of the team, but none of the blame, okay.

[I'm Seriously]

His passing is fine but one or two offensive aspects don't make you an all time great.

His passing is more than "fine" he's one of the greatest passers ever. He does 3 or 4 seperate thing at an all time great level, that does mean he's an all time great.


Rondo is an elite defender and passer but not an all time great PG.

Rondo's passing is nowhere near Nash's, he's not the scorer Nash is, and the difference in shooting ability is like night and day.


I don't think running around all day until someone gets open is so great but I don't deny his greatness as an offensive player.

Most of the Suns offense comes directly from PNR, Nash goes around the basket alot to find the open man, but it's all about PNR.


However, there are PLENTY of players that use their offensive talents to get more wins than Nash and that is what counts to me.

Who are these players that have won more than Nash on offense alone.


Nash's ability to run an offense is like Mark Jackson and Scott Skiles. People are making him put to be Magic and he is far from it.

Wow, WTF am i reading.

[olddangerfield]

If Rose wins he MVP will he be the worst player to ever win it. A ist of past MVPs

Pettit
Cousy
Chamberlain
Russell
Oscar
Unseld
Willis Reed
Lew Alcinder
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
M. Malone
Erving
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Hakeem
Dvid Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaq
AI
Duncan
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron

Im a big rose fan but imo he would be:confusedshrug:

Kareem and Alcindor are the same person :lol

[I'm Seriously]

Lmao at your excuses.

The Suns adopted a run and gun style to suit Nash, the undisputed leader of the team.

Give him all the credit for wins and the positives of the team, but none of the blame, okay.

If Nash was the only reason the Suns adopted RNG, them why does d'antoni still do it?

And when exactly did RNG equal no defense?

How is it his fault they never won? Because he couldn't stop Dirk, and Tim Duncan from destroying his frontcourt?

[Go Getter]

Nash is not breaking ankles man he is not an all time great ball handler, he uses his head and eyes very well though.

How is Rondo passing no where near Nash when he leads the league in assists with less turns iirc?

Scott Skiles had 32 assists in one game and has one of the highest assist averages ever....Mark Jackson was a SUPERB passer....what makes Nash so much better?

If Nash is an offensive anchor, leader, and the suns have an average d then why haven't theu sniffed a title?

[Lebron23]

1999 Karl Malone is the worst MVP Winner. Alonzo Morning should have won the MVP Award in the 1998-99 NBA Season.

20.1 ppg, 11.0 rp, 3.9 bpg > 23.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 4.1 apg,

[Go Getter]

If Nash was the only reason the Suns adopted RNG, them why does d'antoni still do it?

And when exactly did RNG equal no defense?

How is it his fault they never won? Because he couldn't stop Dirk, and Tim Duncan from destroying his frontcourt?
Huh?

That makes no sense.

And when you are the leader, you take the blame.

Ask Jordan. He got the blame when the Piston sent the Bulls home. They said a team that he led couldn't win it all.

[I'm Seriously]

Nash is not breaking ankles man he is not an all time great ball handler, he uses his head and eyes very well though.

You should go watch some clips of young Dallas Nash, he used to flat out humiliate people with his handle, he still does today just not nearly as much.

And you have to have ridiculous handles to keep you dribble alive in the paint like he does.


How is Rondo passing no where near Nash when he leads the league in assists with less turns iirc?

Rondo does not get more tries than Nash, the Suns get about three more possesions than the Celtics, but Rondo plays 5 more minutes than Nash.

And the gap in there teamates is absurd.


Scott Skiles had 32 assists in one game and has one of the highest assist averages ever....Mark Jackson was a SUPERB passer....what makes Nash so much better?

So Skiles is a great passer because he got 32 in a game?:roll: :roll: :roll:

And Skiles averaged 6.5 A/G for his career, 39th all time.

Nash is a much better passer than those guys because, they don't have a fraction of his court vision, don't have anywhere near his mastery of the PNR, or his creativity, and aren't nearly as good with there off hand .

[Go Getter]

You should go watch some clips of young Dallas Nash, he used to flat out humiliate people with his handle, he still does today just not nearly as much.

And you have to have ridiculous handles to keep you dribble alive in the paint like he does.



Rondo does not get more tries than Nash, the Suns get about three more possesions than the Celtics, but Rondo plays 5 more minutes than Nash.

And the gap in there teamates is absurd.



So Skiles is a great passer because he got 32 in a game?:roll: :roll: :roll:

And Skiles averaged 6.5 A/G for his career, 39th all time.

Nash is a much better passer than those guys because, they don't have a fraction of his court vision, don't have anywhere near his mastery of the PNR, or his creativity, and aren't nearly as good with there off hand .

So my memory was incorrect about Skiles averages but you can't say Jackson couldn't pass with his left or run a pnr.

Nash had a good team but they broke it up because of....well....you be the judge.

We will have to agree to disagree on ball handling abilities.

You will never see how many passes Nash gets stolen (often tops the league) because of your romantic feelings.

[I'm Seriously]

Huh?

That makes no sense.

And when you are the leader, you take the blame.

Ask Jordan. He got the blame when the Piston sent the Bulls home. They said a team that he led couldn't win it all.

According to you the reason the Suns started to RNG is because they got Nash, to adapt to his style(which makes no sense considering Nash is better in the halfcourt, than on the fastbreak) when d'antoni left Nash wouldn't he want his own style? Since he's no longer being held back by Nash.

Nash does take the blame. He gets criticized all the time for not making it to the finals, doesn't mean it's deserved.

[I'm Seriously]

So my memory was incorrect about Skiles averages but you can't say Jackson couldn't pass with his left or run a pnr.

Nash had a good team but they broke it up because of....well....you be the judge.

We will have to agree to disagree on ball handling abilities.

You will never see how many passes Nash gets stolen (often tops the league) because of your romantic feelings.

I never said he couldn't, but he's not on Nash's level.

When you handle the ball almost all of the time, and play at a fast pace your going to average alot of turnovers. Just ask Magic Johnson.

[rosonviyavong]

I don't know about worst but when you break it down ..Derrick Rose has every right to be named MVP so I don't see the problem.

[Norcaliblunt]

Nash is not breaking ankles man he is not an all time great ball handler, he uses his head and eyes very well though.



Lol. I think you are seriously underrating Nash's ball handling here. Great ball handling is not always all about "breaking ankles" or fancy moves. Nash can keep his dribble alive at an all time level. Just watch him. His steady ball handling is what makes up for his average athleticism and allows him to create.

[Go Getter]

Lol. I think you are seriously underrating Nash's ball handling here. Great ball handling is not always all about "breaking ankles" or fancy moves. Nash can keep his dribble alive at an all time level. Just watch him. His steady ball handling is what makes up for his average athleticism and allows him to create.
If you could make your man fall ever time down the court you should.

Nash has more Smarts with the ball than most everyone which makes me hesitant to take up this argument, but I don't think he has the raw dribbling skill of a Francis, AI, Zeke....

More specifically, Nash's Smarts allow him to do more with less.

[Go Getter]

According to you the reason the Suns started to RNG is because they got Nash, to adapt to his style(which makes no sense considering Nash is better in the halfcourt, than on the fastbreak) when d'antoni left Nash wouldn't he want his own style? Since he's no longer being held back by Nash.

Nash does take the blame. He gets criticized all the time for not making it to the finals, doesn't mean it's deserved.
Still makes no sense. They hired Mike because his style meshes with Nash.

Just because he's with the Knicks doesn't mean he changes his philosophy.

[midatlantic09]

Hate to tell you, but Nash is by far the worst to ever win MVP.

[BigTicket]

Rose winning this year will be kinda like Malone winning in 97. People will wonder why he got it, when there was a better player on a team with a better record.

[Go Getter]

Rose winning this year will be kinda like Malone winning in 97. People will wonder why he got it, when there was a better player on a team with a better record.
Kinda like when Nash won?

[dwluv3333]

The Jazz in 97 were already a pretty good team in the nearby years before and after.

The Bulls this year on the other hand, have gone from barely making the playoffs last year, to being in talks of potentially taking the #1 or #2 spot in the East.

Had the Bulls been in a similar Eastern position last year as they are this year, I think the discussion for MVP would be much more wide open.

MVP and coach of the year are definitely the kind of awards given with consideration on year to year improvement.

[TrueRob]

2008 Blazers (Record 41-41)
2009 Blazers (Record 54-28) (Home 34-7 - Road 20-21)


2010 Bulls (Record 41-41)
2011 Bulls (39-17) (Home 26-4 - Road 13-13)

If Rose wins MVP this year, I guess Brandon Roy should have won it in 2009.

[KG5MVP]

Hate to tell you, but Nash is by far the worst to ever win MVP.

that would be allen iverson, selfish chucker that plays no defense

[Go Getter]

that would be allen iverson, selfish chucker that plays no defense
Lol...AI is Dennis Johnson compared to Nash.

And AI actually led a team to the finals.

[opps]

If Rose wins he MVP will he be the worst player to ever win it. A ist of past MVPs

Pettit
Cousy
Chamberlain
Russell
Oscar
Unseld
Willis Reed
Lew Alcinder
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
M. Malone
Erving
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Hakeem
Dvid Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaq
AI
Duncan
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron

Im a big rose fan but imo he would be:confusedshrug:

I beg to differ

[hkfosho]

Nash is the worst to win it by far.

[Norcaliblunt]

If you could make your man fall ever time down the court you should.

Nash has more Smarts with the ball than most everyone which makes me hesitant to take up this argument, but I don't think he has the raw dribbling skill of a Francis, AI, Zeke....

More specifically, Nash's Smarts allow him to do more with less.

Smarts plus the "ball handling talent" to keep his dribble alive with either hand, no matter what the defensive pressure is, while being able to get almost anywhere he wants on the court. His knack for not picking up his dribble, and keeping the ball alive like it's a yo-yo while he runs all up in the paint, and around the back board is some of the best ball handling ever.

It's not flashy, eye dropping, destruction of a defender off the dribble with crossovers, but it is some of the best breaking down of a defense by keeping a steady consistent basic fundamental dribble.

[Chicago Brawls]

If Rose wins MVP there will be rivers of hatorade cried.

:violin:

[Glide2keva]

Pretty much. They have got to be mad that on every channel, all basketball experts are saying Rose is MVP.

Must really grind their gears

[Go Getter]

Smarts plus the "ball handling talent" to keep his dribble alive with either hand, no matter what the defensive pressure is, while being able to get almost anywhere he wants on the court. His knack for not picking up his dribble, and keeping the ball alive like it's a yo-yo while he runs all up in the paint, and around the back board is some of the best ball handling ever.

It's not flashy, eye dropping, destruction of a defender off the dribble with crossovers, but it is some of the best breaking down of a defense by keeping a steady consistent basic fundamental dribble.
Yeah and many PGs in the league have the ability to do that but not the smarts to make it useful.

His passing is up there but not his handle, trust me.

[I'm Seriously]

Lol...AI is Dennis Johnson compared to Nash.

And AI actually led a team to the finals.

Lolwut AI was a garbage defender.

Wow, he lead a team that was good because of there defense to the finals, in probably the worst conference ever.

[I'm Seriously]

Still makes no sense. They hired Mike because his style meshes with Nash.

Just because he's with the Knicks doesn't mean he changes his philosophy.

They hired D'antoni because his style meshes with Nash? Then why did they hire him the year before Nash got there?

[Go Getter]

Lolwut AI was a garbage defender.

Wow, he lead a team that was good because of there defense to the finals, in probably the worst conference ever.
Still better than Nash on D.


And I believe Mike was coaching before Nash, maybe he told Jerry to go get Nash, but the fact remains Nash was the focal point of the offense, Mike left and they tried to slow it down, but they went back to up tempo ball.

[I'm Seriously]

One of the greatest SHOOTERS, no doubt, but shit, there are many PGs that could lead a sub par team to a 7th ranked offense when they don't have to stick defense.

The only PG who could do what Nash has done with the Suns this year is Magic, regardless if the team only focuses on offense.


As far as offensive impact he is not up there with prime Shaq, MJ, Wilt, KAJ, Malone, etc.

I beg to differ, Nash's offensive impact is up threre with anyone in the history of the league. And just because he's not as good as Jordan or prime Shaq offensively doesn't mean he's not an all time great offensive player.


Nash is not much better offensive than KJ....I'd put KJ right there with him as far as Suns PGs.

Nash is a better passer, a much better shooter, and alot better at running an offense.


And his passing is great but idk how much better it is than the likes of Thomas, Skiles, Kidd...

Nash is easily a better passer than Skiles, and Isiah, while him and Kidd are on the same level as passers.


And Nash leads the league in passes stolen almost every year, quit acting as if he's flawless.

When you handle the ball all the time, and play in a fast pace, your going to average alot of turnovers..

[kingkong]

Lolwut AI was a garbage defender.

Wow, he lead a team that was good because of there defense to the finals, in probably the worst conference ever.

hey man, AI singlehandedly prevented the Lakers from going 15-0 in the playoffs

[I'm Seriously]

Still better than Nash on D.


And I believe Mike was coaching before Nash, maybe he told Jerry to go get Nash, but the fact remains Nash was the focal point of the offense, Mike left and they tried to slow it down, but they went back to up tempo ball.

At most AI is a slighty better defender than Nash, he doesn't look like Dennis Johnson in comparison.

Funny thing is, when the Suns tried to slow it down they were at there worst defensively.

And the Suns don't run anymore, almost all of there offense comes in the halfcourt.

[I'm Seriously]

hey man, AI singlehandedly prevented the Lakers from going 15-0 in the playoffs

Yes he did, and that was impressive.

But to say something like "and he actually lead his team to the finals" is stupid considering the East back then was complete and utter garbage.

[Johnni Gade]

Rose is up in coming...why the hate?



:applause:

[Bigsmoke]

His passing is more than "fine" he's one of the greatest passers ever. He does 3 or 4 seperate thing at an all time great level, that does mean he's an all time great.



Rondo's passing is nowhere near Nash's, he's not the scorer Nash is, and the difference in shooting ability is like night and day.



Most of the Suns offense comes directly from PNR, Nash goes around the basket alot to find the open man, but it's all about PNR.



Who are these players that have won more than Nash on offense alone.



Wow, WTF am i reading.

get off Nash' dick already.

[jasonresno]

I'm Seriously = Steve Nashes brother.

[Bigsmoke]

2008 Blazers (Record 41-41)
2009 Blazers (Record 54-28) (Home 34-7 - Road 20-21)


2010 Bulls (Record 41-41)
2011 Bulls (39-17) (Home 26-4 - Road 13-13)

If Rose wins MVP this year, I guess Brandon Roy should have won it in 2009.

Lebron and Kobe were having better seasons back then than what they are having now and Rose is better than Roy.


I'm Seriously = Steve Nashes brother.

I'm think about the music video Stan by Eminem everytime i read one of that kid's post. Dude needs help. fast!

[Pointguard]

They hired D'antoni because his style meshes with Nash? Then why did they hire him the year before Nash got there?
:lol :oldlol: :lol

[VishaltotheG]

Lebron and Kobe were having better seasons back then than what they are having now and Rose is better than Roy.

This. I can only name 1 player who might deserve MVP over Rose and that's Dirk.

LeBron has Wade, Bosh
Kobe has Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc.
Dirk has good role players
Howard's record isn't good enough
Boston and Santonio have stacked teams
Rose only has alternated between Boozer and Noah the entire season as his second option

[chazzy]

Nothing wrong with Seriously's posts. He's defending this absurd notion that Nash isn't an all time great offensive player and simply shoots well, like Steve Kerr. Also runs around all day until someone gets open. And he shouldn't be considered a great offensive player because he has no rings (?) and doesn't play defense (??).

[Papaya Petee]

Lew Ancidor and Kareem are the same person.

Idiot.

[jasonresno]

Nothing wrong with Seriously's posts. He's defending this absurd notion that Nash isn't an all time great offensive player and simply shoots well, like Steve Kerr. Also runs around all day until someone gets open. And he shouldn't be considered a great offensive player because he has no rings (?) and doesn't play defense (??).
There's nothing wrong with his argument (some at least). But he has 204 posts and all of them about Nash.

[Norcaliblunt]

Yeah and many PGs in the league have the ability to do that but not the smarts to make it useful.

His passing is up there but not his handle, trust me.

"Trust me"? Lol. Trust what? The fact that you probably have barely ever watched Nash play? Not many PG's in the league or even ever, can retain their dribble the way Steve Nash can. Bottom line.

[asdf1990]

This. I can only name 1 player who might deserve MVP over Rose and that's Dirk.

LeBron has Wade, Bosh
Kobe has Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc.
Dirk has good role players
Howard's record isn't good enough
Boston and Santonio have stacked teams
Rose only has alternated between Boozer and Noah the entire season as his second option

he also has a third option in deng who is averaging 18 ppg, don't let the hype fool u that rose is carrying this bulls team by himself. he has a 20/10 pf a 18/7 sf and one of the best defensive centers in the league( but he missed games).

[Go Getter]

"Trust me"? Lol. Trust what? The fact that you probably have barely ever watched Nash play? Not many PG's in the league or even ever, can retain their dribble the way Steve Nash can. Bottom line.


It's a style of play.

There are plenty of guards that can keep theirdribble like that but in all actuality passing the ball around makes the defense work harder than having one guy pound the air out the ball.

Your bottom line smells like ass.

Nash doesn't have a legendary handle..he's not Zeke man.

I've3 been watching the NBA for around 2 decades and I've seen Nash play plenty of times.

He does not have the handle of a Hardaway, Zeke, AI, Rod Strickand, etc...don't be mad man accept it, you'll be a better person in the long run.

[Javat_90]

It's a style of play.

There are plenty of guards that can keep theirdribble like that but in all actuality passing the ball around makes the defense work harder than having one guy pound the air out the ball.

Your bottom line smells like ass.

Nash doesn't have a legendary handle..he's not Zeke man.

I've3 been watching the NBA for around 2 decades and I've seen Nash play plenty of times.

He does not have the handle of a Hardaway, Zeke, AI, Rod Strickand, etc...don't be mad man accept it, you'll be a better person in the long run.

I agree with this post.

although except Zeke, none of the PGs you mentioned are better than prime Steve Nash.

Even more, I would still take prime Nash over this season Rose.

[jasonresno]

I agree with this post.

although except Zeke, none of the PGs you mentioned are better than prime Steve Nash.

Even more, I would still take prime Nash over this season Rose.
Who wouldn't take Prime Nash over most PGs in the NBA ? This isn't about prime Nash though. It's about 2011 Nash and 2011 Rose.

[Go Getter]

I agree with this post.

although except Zeke, none of the PGs you mentioned are better than prime Steve Nash.

Even more, I would still take prime Nash over this season Rose.

I never said any of those guys were better players than Nash (I agree, only Zeke is better from that list), I said they had better dribbling skills.

If you took Nash over Rose and I had Rose (all other things being equal), my team would destroy yours.

Coaches won't even put Nash on Rose and if they did Nash wuld get detroyed on an island the whole game.

Mismatch.

Just like against the Heat...they put Lebron on Rose and it created a mismatch for Deng.

[Go Getter]

Who wouldn't take Prime Nash over most PGs in the NBA ? This isn't about prime Nash though. It's about 2011 Nash and 2011 Rose.


If I had a defensive team I'd take quite a few players over Nash.

In my personal preference I like for everyplayer to be able to guard their position to avoid mismatches.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Worst player to win MVP?
Seriously? This kid has improved every year since he got in the league. He developed a 3 point shot this season, and I wouldn't say worse, maybe slightly less efficient, because of the 3 pointers.
But no, he's a great player and definitely better than Dirk.

[jasonresno]

Rose has NO liabilities in his game. He can shoot from anywhere on the court. He's a good defender. And he's putting up #s (25/8) that have only been done by a handful of people in the last 30+ years. AND he's 22. AND he's nowhere near his prime.

Saying "He'd be the worst one to win it" is ridiculous. We could look back at this in ten years and he could've won several by then and be a HOF player. You don't know.

[guy]

If Rose wins he MVP will he be the worst player to ever win it. A ist of past MVPs

Pettit
Cousy
Chamberlain
Russell
Oscar
Unseld
Willis Reed
Lew Alcinder
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
M. Malone
Erving
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Hakeem
Dvid Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaq
AI
Duncan
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron

Im a big rose fan but imo he would be:confusedshrug:

25 ppg/8 apg/4 rpg on a team thats on pace for a 57-25 record and have missed a 19/10 guy for 18 games and 14/12 guy for 30 games. And actually with Boozer and Noah for the rest of the year, they should be on a greater pace for record. Missing 18 and 30 games in 56 games is the equivalent of missing 26 and 44 games over an 82 game season.

If you look at the other MVP seasons and take into account team record, the MVP's stats, inflated stats from other eras, games played by that MVP, and level of teammates and their injuries, I don't see how Pettit's 56 MVP, Cousy's 57 MVP, Unseld's 69 MVP, Kareem's 76 MVP, Walton's 78 MVP, Dr. J's 81 MVP, Malone's 99 MVP, AI's 01 MVP, Nash's 05 MVP, or Nash's 06 MVP are inarguably more impressive then Rose's if he were to win it. Some of those MVPs were won with less than .500 records.

[Bigsmoke]

I agree with this post.

Even more, I would still take prime Nash over this season Rose.

I'm not trying to hate but whats the difference between Nash now than what he was in his prime?

[Pacquiao]

Are we just going to ignore that Boozer missed 2 months and Noah was out for 1 1/2 months and they are 1 game behind the Celtics?

Rose is the MVP. It's hard not to give him when most of his starting 5 are Bogans, Kurth Thomas, Gibson and Deng for most of the season.

[asdf1990]

Are we just going to ignore that Boozer missed 2 months and Noah was out for 1 1/2 months and they are 1 game behind the Celtics?

Rose is the MVP. It's hard not to give him when most of his starting 5 are Bogans, Kurth Thomas, Gibson and Deng for most of the season.

can u post his W-L vs above .500 teams and below .500 teams during that stretch,

[jasonresno]

can u post his W-L vs above .500 teams and below .500 teams during that stretch,
Should we do the same for LeBron against "elite" teams? :lol

8-5 for Rose
2-9 (or 8, I can't remember) for LBJ

Says enough.

[I'm Seriously]

I'm not trying to hate but whats the difference between Nash now than what he was in his prime?

Peak Nash is 19/12 on 65 TS%, so there is quite a statistical difference.(Although he played 2 more minutes then)

As a player he really does nothing as good as he used too, but the biggest difference between current Nash and Peak Nash is the ability to take over a game.

Current Nash isn't dropping 30/12/6 on 62 TS% in a playoff series.

[Shepseskaf]

The answer to this question is Nash -- and it isn't even close. He is undoubtedly the worst player in the modern era to "win" the MVP.

Not hating on the player or his game, but truth is truth.

The fact that he actually "won" two awards will have fans in future generations wondering what the voters were smoking back in the mid-2000's.

[Pacquiao]

Should we do the same for LeBron against "elite" teams? :lol

8-5 for Rose
2-9 (or 8, I can't remember) for LBJ

Says enough.

PG - Rose
SG - Bogans
SF - Deng
PF - Gibson
C - 38 year old Thomas

Everytime I watched Bulls game for the whole month of January and until the all star break, I always see this lineup.

You have LBJ getting his ass kicked by the Celtics, Bulls, Dallas and other top teams with Wade and Bosh on the starting 5.

You gave LBJ MVP when you have Wade putting up 40+ points for several games and least half all the games the Heat played, Wade was the one who takes over those games

Lebron scores 30+ 40+ ESPN, YAHOO and NBA.com have lebron on the main page like an MVP performance and you'll see a lot of threads

Wade scores 40 even with 10+ rebounds and 5+ assists for several games and no one cares and everyone keeps quiet

[Glide2keva]

Should we do the same for LeBron against "elite" teams? :lol

8-5 for Rose
2-9 (or 8, I can't remember) for LBJ

Says enough.
Against the Bulls, Celtics and Mavs, the Heat are 0-7, very MVP like.

Against the Heat, Mavs and Celtics, the Bulls are 5-1, with only having had their full squad for one game.

[jasonresno]

PG - Rose
SG - Bogans
SF - Deng
PF - Gibson
C - 38 year old Thomas

Everytime I watched Bulls game for the whole month of January and until the all star break, I always see this lineup.

You have LBJ getting his ass kicked by the Celtics, Bulls, Dallas and other top teams with Wade and Bosh on the starting 5.

You gave LBJ MVP when you have Wade putting up 40+ points for several games and least half all the games the Heat played, Wade was the one who takes over those games

Lebron scores 30+ 40+ ESPN, YAHOO and NBA.com have lebron on the main page like an MVP performance and you'll see a lot of threads

Wade scores 40 even with 10+ rebounds and 5+ assists for several games and no one cares and everyone keeps quiet
D-Rose is a winner, that's for sure.

But let's be real. Wade is no Bogans. Bogans can ball.

[asdf1990]

Against the Bulls, Celtics and Mavs, the Heat are 0-7, very MVP like.

Against the Heat, Mavs and Celtics, the Bulls are 5-1, with only having had their full squad for one game.

those teams play like its game 7 against the heat, while they like its a regular season game against the bulls. Why is the regular season so long, I want to see the bulls get raped in the playoffs again.

[ChiCity]

No, Thib's defense is mainly the reason Chicago is Chicago. Look at Rose's shooting last night-- 9/24. That's typical Rose. Only the biggest homers can deny that he was only the third best player on the floor last night. Swap him for a more efficient, more dominant superstar, and the Bulls are favorites in the East.

My issues with Rose being MVP-- this early in his career in a season where there is no argument to be made that he's the best player in the league-- are the significance of the award in terms of history and legacy and then also the fact that he'll also get 1st team automatically along with it. Now you can argue between Kobe and Rose who merits one of the guard spots.

But, the thing is, both of them will get it, and Wade will get screwed even though he's outplaying both of them and the Heat have a better record than either the Lakers or the Bulls. If the voters even think before they automatically cast a ballot for Kobe, they will think to themselves that since Kobe is the Lakers #1 and Wade is perceived as LBJ's second, that Kobe should get the slot..
mvp isnt best player
its most valuable

[Halcyon]

D-Rose is a winner, that's for sure.

But let's be real. Wade is no Bogans. Bogans can ball.

Bogans has a 3 point fade-away that would make Jesus himself jealous.

[jasonresno]

those teams play like its game 7 against the heat, while they like its a regular season game against the bulls. Why is the regular season so long, I want to see the bulls get raped in the playoffs again.
:banana: 2-0 against the Heat:banana:

http://i.imgur.com/TFNeI.png

^^^^^^^
Wade sure looks like he just lost a game 7 :lol

[Glide2keva]

Bogans has a 3 point fade-away that would make Jesus himself jealous.
jesus's jumpshot is better.

[Javat_90]

Who wouldn't take Prime Nash over most PGs in the NBA ? This isn't about prime Nash though. It's about 2011 Nash and 2011 Rose.

Not trying to hate on Rose here, but id still take 2010-2011 Nash over him. Specially if im starting a franchise from 0, im not talking about replacing him on the Bulls team, i still think Rose is a better fit than Steve for Chicago.

Why would i take Nash over him? Very simple: because i have a sensible spot for floor-generals, playmakers/facilitators who are the extension of their coach in the court and can make everybody around him better and more efficient.

Now, im not saying Rose is a worse player than current Nash, all im saying is that they are very different type of PGs, and I like the Nash style prototype more.

[Javat_90]

I never said any of those guys were better players than Nash (I agree, only Zeke is better from that list), I said they had better dribbling skills.

If you took Nash over Rose and I had Rose (all other things being equal), my team would destroy yours.

Coaches won't even put Nash on Rose and if they did Nash wuld get detroyed on an island the whole game.

Mismatch.

Just like against the Heat...they put Lebron on Rose and it created a mismatch for Deng.

Things dont work like that.

A basketball game doesnt simply bold down to the PG match-up. Its probably true Rose would destroy Nash on offense (because we all know Steve sucks at defense), but in the end, with comparable teammates in quality and comparable circumstances I would take the team that has Nash.

I think they have more probabilities of winning.

[jasonresno]

Not trying to hate on Rose here, but id still take 2010-2011 Nash over him. Specially if im starting a franchise from 0, im not talking about replacing him on the Bulls team, i still think Rose is a better fit than Steve for Chicago.

Why would i take Nash over him? Very simple: because i have a sensible spot for floor-generals, playmakers/facilitators who are the extension of their coach in the court and can make everybody around him better and more efficient.

Now, im not saying Rose is a worse player than current Nash, all im saying is that they are very different type of PGs, and I like the Nash style prototype more.
That's all well and good but you would start a franchise over and build it around a 37 year old Steve Nash over the most dynamic Bull since Jordan, who just happens to be 22?

[Javat_90]

I'm not trying to hate but whats the difference between Nash now than what he was in his prime?

Not much. Few points scored per game and a bit less efficiency on the 3pt shot. This season of Nash is getting severely underrated just because the team is not a 1-4 seed no more. The truth is, thanks to his game the Suns are actually overacheiving and still fighting for a playoff spot.

That`s my point actually, I would still take this version of Nash over Rose.

He still involves his teammates and creates plays like in his best days, people just look at the age and think "bah this guy is past his prime" when its actually false, some players just have an incredible aging, and Nash is an example.

[Javat_90]

That's all well and good but you would start a franchise over and build it around a 37 year old Steve Nash over the most dynamic Bull since Jordan, who just happens to be 22?

Well, considering the age factor of course not, id take Rose.

But we are talking about an hipotethical thing here, consider for a moment this franchise from 0 is only going to last one season, id take Nash over Rose.

Its just an example to explain my point on why I would take one over the other.

[Glide2keva]

Well, considering the age factor of course not, id take Rose.

But we are talking about an hipotethical thing here, consider for a moment this franchise from 0 is only going to last one season, id take Nash over Rose.

Its just an example to explain my point on why I would take one over the other.
You're free to do so.

[pauk]

SO BASICALLY WE ARE GONA SEE HISTORY IF ROSE GETS MVP:

1. rose will be the worst player ever to win MVP

2. he will also be the worst player in NBA history to be so overrated at the same time

3. he will also be the worst player in NBA history to get a MVP over a much better player with similar team record (LEBRON) or more players who produced better than him and diserved it more than him like dwight wade durant kobe and so on

4. he will also be the luckiest terrible player ever


HISTORY IS BEING MADE

[PurpleChuck]

SO BASICALLY WE ARE GONA SEE HISTORY IF ROSE GETS MVP:

1. rose will be the worst player ever to win MVP

2. he will also be the worst player in NBA history to be so overrated at the same time

3. he will also be the worst player in NBA history to get a MVP over a much better player with similar team record (LEBRON) or more players who produced better than him and diserved it more than him like dwight wade durant kobe and so on

4. he will also be the luckiest terrible player ever


HISTORY IS BEING MADE
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Mr Know It All]

Dirk is the worst to ever win it.

You are such a moron :facepalm

Dirk isn't even the worst last decade. That label belongs to AI and Steve Nash.

[A.R.T]

dirk and steve nash say hi

[PurpleChuck]

You are such a moron :facepalm

Dirk isn't even the worst last decade. That label belongs to AI and Steve Nash.
That label belongs to Kobe Bryant and it ain't even close.

[PurpleChuck]

dirk and steve nash say hi
hi.
:rolleyes:

[Go Getter]

Things dont work like that.

A basketball game doesnt simply bold down to the PG match-up. Its probably true Rose would destroy Nash on offense (because we all know Steve sucks at defense), but in the end, with comparable teammates in quality and comparable circumstances I would take the team that has Nash.

I think they have more probabilities of winning.
If both teams were equal Nash would get murdered in his matchup and cause his team to lose.

There is no way Nash can guard Rose, but Rose has a chance to slow Nash down.

[magmo68]

non-sense:oldlol:

[creepingdeath]

There is no way Nash can guard Rose, but Rose has a chance to slow Nash down.
Yeah, he sure is able to slow down one of the greatest offensive PGs of all time. Let's continue talking once Rose leads his team to Conference finals with averaging something like this: 30,33ppg @ 55/42/96, 6.5 rbg, 12 apg

[Go Getter]

Yeah, he sure is able to slow down one of the greatest offensive PGs of all time. Let's continue talking once Rose leads his team to Conference finals with averaging something like this: 30,33ppg @ 55/42/96, 6.5 rbg, 12 apg
Look at their head to head matchups.

Who cares about numbers when you lost?

And add to that the Mavs got better when Nasheft.


Had two MVPs on one team yet no ring.

[creepingdeath]

Look at their head to head matchups.

Who cares about numbers when you lost?

And add to that the Mavs got better when Nasheft.


Had two MVPs on one team yet no ring.
Wow, a five games sample. :roll: By the way, Nash didn't lose, he took down the Mavs to reach the Conference finals. :facepalm

[Go Getter]

Wow, a five games sample. :roll: By the way, Nash didn't lose, he took down the Mavs to reach the Conference finals. :facepalm
You took a sample of his best playoff series and used it to prove a point....Rose wasnt even in the league then.

I said use their head to head matchups which is a little more relevant.

And my point is that Nash and his team had a good run but those stats mean little because they lost.


Wade put up beast numbers against Dirk in the finals now those are meaningful stats.

[creepingdeath]

You took a sample of his best playoff series and used it to prove a point....Rose wasnt even in the league then.

I said use their head to head matchups which is a little more relevant.

And my point is that Nash and his team had a good run but those stats mean little because they lost.


Wade put up beast numbers against Dirk in the finals now those are meaningful stats.
Okay, so Nash's stats don't mean anything although he won that particular series? So only stats of people who win a ring in the course are meaningful? Do you even read what you're spewing here? :roll: Cause I guess Rose's numbers don't mean jackshit then, he didn't win it all, either. :facepalm

But nice sideblow, how unexpected. :applause:

[clipps]

Rose could end up being better than 1/2 that list by the time he is done. You have know way of predicting how good he will be.

:lol

[Hey Yo]

quit bumping old threads you stupid****

[clipps]

quit bumping old threads you stupid****

Stay on topic, retard.