If Kobe retired today would he be a Top 10 Player of All-Time?

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Is Kobe already a top 10 player of all-time?

[az00m]

He's a top 10 guard:violin:

[KG5MVP]

i think it's top 10, lower end.

and i am a kobe hater

[jaydacris]

top 10 laker of all time for sure

[AirTupac]

Yep.

[VishaltotheG]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

[winwin]

a Top 5

[bdreason]

I have him 10th. He's top 15, no doubt.

[G-Funk]

he's in my top 5

[miller-time]

it'd be like when someone dies, their image always becomes bigger and more favourable. so i say yes.

however even as a kobe hater i can see him being in there on his own merit, and not on popular nostalgic opinion.

[Basketball Dirk]

Top 15. I just can't put him in the top 10.

[jstern]

If Kobe is in the top 10 I don't think he'll be there for long. He just seems to, I can't explain it. He's a great player, but a player who also costs the team games that the other top 10s wouldn't cost their team. Too hard to explain. Like I think someone like Hakeem would is more valuable and wouldn't cost his team as many wins. And has stepped up more in the playoffs.

Many people feel that he should be top 10 now, but I feel that's just something that happens when a player is active and good, and then they fall back into a more proper placing, even go a couple of notches down unfairly as they start declining and other current players are out performing him.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Top 15. I just can't put him in the top 10.

Who do you have in front of him?

[branslowski]

Kobe is top 10..Shouldn't be out of anyone's with a brain top 10 to be honest. The Facts are there.

[jlauber]

Who do you have in front of him?

Exactly. I would like to see a top-10 list without him. Five rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 1 MVP, a scoring title. Pretty hard to find 10 players with better credentials.

[Walduś]

easily.

[az00m]

Mj
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russel
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Malone
Hakeem
Kobe

[NBASTATMAN]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem


How anyone puts duncan and kobe over hakeem is BEYOND me.. Kobe's career PUTS HIM IN TOP 10 -12.. I would say his career may already make him 10th.. It depends at what you look at.. But as a player I think Moses is better than both duncan and kobe..

KAREEM
MJ
WILT
RUSSELL
MAGIC
BIRD
HAKEEM
SHAQ
MOSES
DUNCAN, KOBE,Oscar ,WEST, Hondo,


kobe and duncan are close.. It depends who you like more.. Either one is a good pick for 10th

[RandyOrton]

he better be, kobe is one of the greatest players ever. this era is the toughest of all and hes the best player

[az00m]

he better be, kobe is one of the greatest players ever. this era is the toughest of all and hes the best player
Best?
What about Lebron? Wade? Howard? Duncan? Shaq?

[branslowski]

Mj
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russel
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Malone
Hakeem
Kobe

Hope that's not in order.

[MJ23forever]

most reasonable fans already had him in the top 10-15 for a while now. but pretty much sealed his legacy as a top 10 player in '09.

it honestly isn't even an argument anymore.

[az00m]

Hope that's not in order.

Not in order just the ones before kobe are better than him. I just listed names of people who are ahead of him based on skills.

[G-Funk]

2nd player in NBA league history to master the game...think about that really, really good

[branslowski]

Not in order just the ones before kobe are better than him. I just listed names of people who are ahead of him based on skills.

If it was based on just Skill, only Bird and Jordan would be ahead of Kobe....

And I have tons of factual evidence that places Kobe above a few players you have there, but....LMFAO a Malone and Oscar being ahead of Kobe.....Child please.

[jlauber]

2nd player in NBA league history to master the game...think about that really, really good

????

[branslowski]

2nd player in NBA league history to master the game...think about that really, really good

:lol What the f*ck does this even mean?

[az00m]

If it was based on just Skill, only Bird and Jordan would be ahead of Kobe....

And I have tons of factual evidence that places Kobe above a few players you have there, but....LMFAO a Malone and Oscar being ahead of Kobe.....Child please.

I'll bite, lets see what you got.

[NBASTATMAN]

2nd player in NBA league history to master the game...think about that really, really good


:lol .. He does have better skills than the current crop of superstars.. But that doesn't mean he mastered the game...

[branslowski]

I'll bite, lets see what you got.

Can you explain to me how Oscar should be ranked ahead of Kobe on the All-Time list?

[G-Funk]

:lol .. He does have better skills than the current crop of superstars.. But that doesn't mean he mastered the game...


He can do everything and anything ever done. He mastered it!

[MJ23forever]

Can you explain to me how Oscar should be ranked ahead of Kobe on the All-Time list?

only thing I have ever seen people come up with is based on his triple double season. to be honest oscar is some what overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season.

and with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

[G-Funk]

he can post, he can create his own shot, he is clutch, he's a leader, he can lock down a player, steal, block, pass, rebound, 3's, just everything.

[jlauber]

He can do everything and anything ever done. He mastered it!

50 ppg season, 27.2 rpg season, .727 FG% season, 100 point game, 55 rebound game, 18-18 FGs in a game, 78-43 game, 22 point-25 rebound-21 assist game, 23 block game, 24-32-13-12 Finals game, 41 rebound game in the playoffs, 56-35 playoff game, 19 assists in a playoff game, 11 rebound titles, a season averaging 48.5 mpg...etc., etc.

[az00m]

Can you explain to me how Oscar should be ranked ahead of Kobe on the All-Time list?

He was a more well rounded player than kobe. His points assist and rebound numbers in his first 10 years were off the charts. He is a more efficient shooter than that kobe.

Kobe is a better long term player tho. Oscar really fell off the hill once he turned 32.

Jl can compare better he has seen more games.

[branslowski]

only thing I have ever seen people come up with is based on his triple double season. oscar is some what overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season.

and with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

I know, I want the Facts on Oscar being ranked higher than Kobe...Make me belive this one time champ (side-kick for that) is All-Time greater than Kobe.

[NBASTATMAN]

Moses Malone is the greatest rebounder of our era.. He also had close to 30000 pts to go along with all his rebounds... Top 10 player though most would overlook him..

[jlauber]

He was a more well rounded player than kobe. His points assist and rebound numbers in his first 10 years were off the charts. He is a more efficient shooter than that kobe.

Kobe is a better long term player tho. Oscar really fell off the hill once he turned 32.

Jl can compare better he has seen more games.

Oscar averaged 30-10-10 in his first FIVE seasons...COMBINED. He also outshot the league average in FG% by a considerable margin (he had one season at .518 in a league that shot .441.)

Still, IMHO, Kobe's rings and Finals MVPs separate him from Oscar...albeit, not by a much. Oscar has a case for a top-10 career, but I have him at 11th. Had he been surrounded with better teammates in his prime, who knows, though?

[Harrison_Barnes]

Yepp. I currently have him around #8 and i'm not even a Laker fan..

[branslowski]

Moses Malone is the greatest rebounder of our era.. He also had close to 30000 pts to go along with all his rebounds... Top 10 player though most would overlook him..

Moses was the one I had over Kobe before last season.

[NBASTATMAN]

He can do everything and anything ever done. He mastered it!


But not efficiently.. If he could do everything efficiently I would agree.. But that has never been the case..


Still I would take his skills over any of the current crop of superstars..

[MJ23forever]

I know, I want the Facts on Oscar being ranked higher than Kobe...Make me belive this one time champ (side-kick for that) is All-Time greater than Kobe.

if you look at their careers objectively, I honestly don't see how anyone can rank oscar over kobe.

oscar only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by jabbar, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his career and won only two playoff series his entire career as a #1 option. no way would kobe would get that kind of pass if that's what his carer looked like.

his triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then.

[NuggetsFan]

I know, I want the Facts on Oscar being ranked higher than Kobe...Make me belive this one time champ (side-kick for that) is All-Time greater than Kobe.

You are truly a fool. You keep repeating "facts" and "factual evidence". You do realize how subjective rating basketball players is, right?. Esp the ten greatest of all time. There's tons of things to value and everybody values things different rather it be statistics\success\achievements\team achievements. Throw in all these players played with different teammates and in different era's and your really going to sit there and act like anything you post is fact? It's your opinion and nothing more. How's that for some factual evidence :oldlol:

Anyways I have him my top 10. Right with Duncan\Hakeem in the lower tier of the top 10.

[NBASTATMAN]

Moses was the one I had over Kobe before last season.


If you are talking about career yes.. I would take Moses though if we were strictly talking players..

[G-Funk]

But not efficiently.. If he could do everything efficiently I would agree.. But that has never been the case..


Still I would take his skills over any of the current crop of superstars..


he's been pretty efficient since 2002 if u asked me. I guess it's just all opinions.

[MJ23forever]

Top 15. I just can't put him in the top 10.

you don't put him in the top 10?

top 15?

how do you evaluate a players legacy?

he has: 5 championships, 2 finals mvps, 1 league mvp, scoring titles, 7 finals appearances, 13x all-star, 8 all-nba first teams, 8 all-defensive first teams, excellent statistics, numerous scoring feats etc etc and he's not even breaking the top 15 yet? :facepalm

[nightprowler10]

I don't have a definitive top 10 list, but if I did, I'd say yeah, Kobe's top 10.

[griffmoney1784]

if kobe is already accepted by the majority of hardcore biased fan message boards to be considered around #8-10 all time...


then imagine how high the average every day person ranks him



infact espn had a fan poll and 100,000 people had only jordan and magic ranked higher all time.


nba experts, coaches have him around 5th. but the average citizen has him 3rd.

amaizing

at 32 years old and still 4-5 years from retirement

:applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

if kobe is already accepted by the majority of hardcore biased fan message boards to be considered around #8-10 all time...


then imagine how high the average every day person ranks him



infact espn had a fan poll and 100,000 people had only jordan and magic ranked higher all time.

nba experts, coaches have him around 5th. but the average citizen has him 3rd.

amaizing

at 32 years old and still 4-5 years from retirement

:applause:


So these guys are all from LA... At least they know about MJ...

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have yet to see a legit argument for Kobe being anything less than top 10 all time in this thread.


I think Moses is better than both duncan and kobe..

:facepalm


Can you explain to me how Oscar should be ranked ahead of Kobe on the All-Time list?

I don't understand it either.


He was a more well rounded player than kobe. His points assist and rebound numbers in his first 10 years were off the charts. He is a more efficient shooter than that kobe.

You sure his team getting an extra 30-35 possessions per game didn';t have anything to do with those numbers?


Moses Malone is the greatest rebounder of our era.. He also had close to 30000 pts to go along with all his rebounds... Top 10 player though most would overlook him..

He's not top 10, he was a great player, but the definition of a black hole, his defensive impact wasn't great for a center and he won his only a title replacing Caldwell Jones on a team that went 58-24 and made the finals the year before without him.



oscar only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by jabbar, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his career and won only two playoff series his entire career as a #1 option. no way would kobe would get that kind of pass if that's what his carer looked like.

his triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then.

Great post, though Oscar was definitely the 2nd best player on the 1971 Bucks, not the 3rd fiddle.

Here's a post I made about Oscar recently.


I'm not even talking about the quality of the players, just the stats in context, and I feel Oscar benefits a lot from people not putting the stats into perspective.

As far as team success, here are Oscar's Royals records.

1961- 33-46
1962- 43-37
1963- 42-38
1964- 55-25
1965- 48-32
1966- 45-35
1967- 39-42
1968- 39-43
1969- 41-41
1970- 36-46

He missed the playoffs 4 times in those seasons and won a total of 2 playoff series with Cincinnati. And the excuse that he played during the Celtics era doesn't work because they only lost to the Celtics 3 times in the playoffs, less than the amount of times Ewing's Knicks lost to Jordan's Bulls and the same amount of times that Barkley lost to Jordan's Bulls.

So, 2 playoff series wins, no finals appearances, one 50 win season.

And the supporting cast argument doesn't work unless you use it for Garnett, Robinson, Ewing ect.

Oscar entered the league with future hall of famer Jack Tyman who would make 2 all-star teams while playing with Robertson('62 and '63) and the all-nba second team in '62, Wayne Embry who made 5 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Robertson('61-'65) and then he got Jerry Lucas who made 6 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Oscar('64-'69) as well as 3 all-nba first teams and 2 all-nba second teams in those years. Adrian Smith also made the '66 all-star team while playing with Oscar and Tom Van Arsdale made the 1970 all-star team while playing with Oscar.

[knightfall88]

Just outside of top 5 right now so yes top 10 easily

[Bond007]

6-7 perhaps

[Jacks3]

I have in the top 15, mainly because I value prime/peak play more than accolades/accomplishments, which depends a ton on context and how good the team is.

[dunksby]

You all know he is Top5 even if he quits today, them who think he is lower are consciously delusional.

[NBASTATMAN]

I have yet to see a legit argument for Kobe being anything less than top 10 all time in this thread.



:facepalm



I don't understand it either.



You sure his team getting an extra 30-35 possessions per game didn';t have anything to do with those numbers?



He's not top 10, he was a great player, but the definition of a black hole, his defensive impact wasn't great for a center and he won his only a title replacing Caldwell Jones on a team that went 58-24 and made the finals the year before without him.




Great post, though Oscar was definitely the 2nd best player on the 1971 Bucks, not the 3rd fiddle.

Here's a post I made about Oscar recently.



Malone busted up Kareem .. He was probably the best Center in the NBA 79-86.. He was a killer on the offensive boards.. And he played at a time where the LAKERS AND CELTS were loaded.. Still he helped beat the lakers in 81, i believe.. Again he dominated Kareem in 83.. The guy could also shoot free throws.. :lol

This isn't Duncan and Shaq going against crappy centers of todays ball.. He went vs some of the best and never had a Magic or Bird.. The guys who have won a good amount of titles have always played with a superstar who complimented their game.. In Birds case he had two all star level bigs similar to Kobe.. He had Dr J at the end of his career and won a title with him. Still no one is putting DR J on magics or birds level..


Alot of these ranking depends on where you wind up as a player.. If Kobe winds up playing in NJ I know he would never have won the amount of title he has in LA... He has been lucky to have one of the greatest coaches and have played with some of the best talent.

Take a look at Duncan.. You have to give the guy credit he built SA. But you have to look at who he beat. I watched an old karl malone shut him down.. I have seen him struggle vs the crappy front line of cleveland in the finals.. If he had to play in the same situation and time period that Karl Malone had to play in he has 0 titles...

All in all MOSES HAD 3MVPS.. And one finals MVP..

Almost 30000 pts and 18000 reb..

[Javat_90]

Definetely low top-10 for me, around the 8th, 9th or 10th spot.

He has everything: championships (both won as a second and first option), incredible individual prime, longevity, individual titles (RS mvp, 2 FMVP, scoring title...etc).

If people dont have him at least on the 10th spot, then they are biased or hating. Neither Oscar, Erving, West...etc have done better than Kobe when comparing careers.

My personal top-10 btw:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon

[The Iron Fist]

He has been lucky to have one of the greatest coaches and have played with some of the best talent.




This statement can be applied to almost every champion in the NBA.


I mean, what NBA champion hasn't played with one of the best coaches or the best talent?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Malone busted up Kareem .. He was probably the best Center in the NBA 79-86.. He was a killer on the offensive boards.. And he played at a time where the LAKERS AND CELTS were loaded.. Still he helped beat the lakers in 81, i believe.. Again he dominated Kareem in 83.. The guy could also shoot free throws.. :lol

The '81 series was a best of 3 series when anything can happen. Magic had been injured half of the season and he shot a miserable 39% in the series. Despite that, it came down to a final shot and Magic airballed the shot on a play designed for Kareem. I've only seen one full game of the series(game 2) and part of game 1 so I can't comment on who outplayed who in the series, though Kareem did outrebound Moses in the series. But they didn't even guard each other for a lot of game 2,

And :oldlol: at Moses being better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

Moses would completely ignore double teams and just force shots instead of passing the ball. Check out his assist to turnover ratios with Houston and Philadelphia.

1978- 0.5 apg, 3.7 TO
1979- 1.8 apg, 4 TO
1980- 1.8 apg, 3.7 TO
1981- 1.8 apg, 3.9 TO
1982- 1.8 apg, 3.6 TO
1983- 1.3 apg, 3.4 TO
1984- 1.4 apg, 3.5 TO
1985- 1.6 apg, 3.6 TO
1986- 1.2 apg, 3.5 TO

Watch Moses play and it'll be easy to see how he came up with these numbers. He didn't have the same defensive impact as the other great centers either. Prior to joining a 76er team that was already consistently good defensively, his teams were always mediocre defensively and he was not a great shot blocker either.

1977- Worst defensive team in the league
1978- Worst defensive team in the league
1979- 2nd worst defensive team in the league
1980- 4th worst defensive team in the league
1981- 7th worst defensive team in the league
1982- 7th worst defensive team in the league


This isn't Duncan and Shaq going against crappy centers of todays ball.. He went vs some of the best and never had a Magic or Bird.. The guys who have won a good amount of titles have always played with a superstar who complimented their game.. In Birds case he had two all star level bigs similar to Kobe.. He had Dr J at the end of his career and won a title with him. Still no one is putting DR J on magics or birds level..

Moses had a team that had gotten to the finals the year before and in the past 3 seasons had won 59, 62 and 58 games and lost in game 6 of the finals twiceand game 7 of the ECF the other year(also to the eventual champions) all without him.

That's much more help than what almost any of the top 10 players had when they won as the man, including Kobe the last 2 seasons.


Alot of these ranking depends on where you wind up as a player.. If Kobe winds up playing in NJ I know he would never have won the amount of title he has in LA... He has been lucky to have one of the greatest coaches and have played with some of the best talent.

Take a look at Duncan.. You have to give the guy credit he built SA. But you have to look at who he beat. I watched an old karl malone shut him down.. I have seen him struggle vs the crappy front line of cleveland in the finals.. If he had to play in the same situation and time period that Karl Malone had to play in he has 0 titles...

These hypotheticals are pointless because you can't prove much either way, the bottom line is that Kobe and Duncan have gotten it done and they've done so with all time great playoff runs.

[NBASTATMAN]

This statement can be applied to almost every champion in the NBA.


I mean, what NBA champion hasn't played with one of the best coaches or the best talent?


This is true.. But what about the superstars that never played with all the talent.. Oscar, moses, karl and others are looked at as lower level players cuz they played with less.. Karl has only himself to blame for not beating the bulls in 97 but he never played with the best talent in the league.. Kareem won with two of the greatest guards ever and some super talented lineups..

[NBASTATMAN]

The '81 series was a best of 3 series when anything can happen. Magic had been injured half of the season and he shot a miserable 39% in the series. Despite that, it came down to a final shot and Magic airballed the shot on a play designed for Kareem. I've only seen one full game of the series(game 2) and part of game 1 so I can't comment on who outplayed who in the series, though Kareem did outrebound Moses in the series. But they didn't even guard each other for a lot of game 2,

And :oldlol: at Moses being better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

Moses would completely ignore double teams and just force shots instead of passing the ball. Check out his assist to turnover ratios with Houston and Philadelphia.

1978- 0.5 apg, 3.7 TO
1979- 1.8 apg, 4 TO
1980- 1.8 apg, 3.7 TO
1981- 1.8 apg, 3.9 TO
1982- 1.8 apg, 3.6 TO
1983- 1.3 apg, 3.4 TO
1984- 1.4 apg, 3.5 TO
1985- 1.6 apg, 3.6 TO
1986- 1.2 apg, 3.5 TO

Watch Moses play and it'll be easy to see how he came up with these numbers. He didn't have the same defensive impact as the other great centers either. Prior to joining a 76er team that was already consistently good defensively, his teams were always mediocre defensively and he was not a great shot blocker either.

1977- Worst defensive team in the league
1978- Worst defensive team in the league
1979- 2nd worst defensive team in the league
1980- 4th worst defensive team in the league
1981- 7th worst defensive team in the league
1982- 7th worst defensive team in the league



Moses had a team that had gotten to the finals the year before and in the past 3 seasons had won 59, 62 and 58 games and lost in game 6 of the finals twiceand game 7 of the ECF the other year(also to the eventual champions) all without him.
That's much more help than what almost any of the top 10 players had when they won as the man, including Kobe the last 2 seasons.



These hypotheticals are pointless because you can't prove much either way, the bottom line is that Kobe and Duncan have gotten it done and they've done so with all time great playoff runs.


Moses did Kareem dirty in 81 and 83... Can't deny that... When Moses had the talent around him he got it done as well..

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses did Kareem dirty in 81 and 83... Can't deny that...

So 28 year old Moses outplayed 36 year old Kareem in the 1983 finals.....

Actually, the funny thing is that the only thing Moses did better at that point was rebound, yes, the gap was huge in that area, and Moses was the better player in 1983, but Kareem was a better offensive player and shot blocker.

And '81? How can you say that without seeing the entire series? Especially since it was a best of 3 series that came down to 1 shot.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kobe is the last of a dying breed. For all of you who have watched the NBA for many years now, you know what I mean. His overall approach to the game makes him something not special, but unique. I would only put KG to some extent in the same bag as kobe regarding this (from current players). Not to mention accolades & talent.

Kobe shouldn't be outside any unbiased fans top 10 right now, and the sole event of his retirement would boost him a couple of places in that list. He still got alot in the tank and we can only speculate where he will end at.

At this point, haters included, we should all really leave homerism aside and enjoy one of the greatest this sports has ever given us in his last years in the league.

[SourPatchKids]

2nd player in NBA league history to master the game...think about that really, really good
Lol,your avatar.

[catch24]

Top 10 without question.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe is the last of a dying breed. For all of you who have watched the NBA for many years now, you know what I mean. His overall approach to the game makes him something not special, but unique. I would only put KG to some extent in the same bag as kobe regarding this (from current players). Not to mention accolades & talent.

Kobe shouldn't be outside any unbiased fans top 10 right now, and the sole event of his retirement would boost him a couple of places in that list. He still got alot in the tank and we can only speculate where he will end at.

At this point, haters included, we should all really leave homerism aside and enjoy one of the greatest this sports has ever given us in his last years in the league.


How many titles does kg win with the talent kobe and shaq have had around them? LOL

I agree on Kobe's approach.. I wish Wade would take the game like Kobe does..

[NBASTATMAN]

So 28 year old Moses outplayed 36 year old Kareem in the 1983 finals.....

Actually, the funny thing is that the only thing Moses did better at that point was rebound, yes, the gap was huge in that area, and Moses was the better player in 1983, but Kareem was a better offensive player and shot blocker.

And '81? How can you say that without seeing the entire series? Especially since it was a best of 3 series that came down to 1 shot.


That is what made the NBA so great back then.. A friend of mine has one of the games on tape.. He has a huge collection of bball and boxing tapes.. He is a dealer..

He also has a huge amount of original MTV stuff.. We both worked there in the mid 90's...

[ShaqAttack3234]

How many titles does kg win with the talent kobe and shaq have had around them? LOL

Who knows? Probably not as many considering he's not as good. In fact there's no season in Shaq or Kobe's prime where you can say KG probably wins with their casts.



That is what made the NBA so great back then.. A friend of mine has one of the games on tape.. He has a huge collection of bball and boxing tapes.. He is a dealer..

He also has a huge amount of original MTV stuff.. We both worked there in the mid 90's...

Well, game 2 is available in it's entirety and from the small parts of game 1 that are available as well as game 2, you'll see that Kareem matched up with Billy Paultz a lot and Moses matched up with Jim Chones a lot.

[NBASTATMAN]

Who knows? Probably not as many considering he's not as good. In fact there's no season in Shaq or Kobe's prime where you can say KG probably wins with their casts.




Well, game 2 is available in it's entirety and from the small parts of game 1 that are available as well as game 2, you'll see that Kareem matched up with Billy Paultz a lot and Moses matched up with Jim Chones a lot.


What if you let him play with Shaq in his prime.. I know kg gets titles.. Especially if you let him play with the 2000-2003 titles.. He at least gets three.. The 2000 team would have won , 2001 team actually became a team when kobe went out with a injury and came back to play team ball.. Kg would have been able to do that all season.. Plus the teams LA went against were not good.. Spurs were hurt, kings were garbage with white chocolate, and the sixers would have lost too.. The 2002 team would have had more problems but kg would have locked up Webber.. Obvoiusly the Lakers would have had to get a serviceable to sg.. They had Mitch on that team..But they could have used Rick Fox.. He was the main defensive stopper anyway.. That team would have been ridiculous defensively...


Kobe is better than kg but not by much.. Kg'S defensive impact is huge and in his prime he could do it all.. Except try to guard MJ.. LOL

[crisoner]

Top ten yes.....

I got Kobe around 7 or 8.....

Another title n he cracks the top 5.
Think what u want of him....but dude has had a great career period.
Title...records....legendary performances. Kobe got it all.
He also went up against great comp etc.

One thing I like about Kobe is he beat a team that beat him in the Finals. He also won back to back. That right there is legendary.

[The Iron Fist]

This is true.. But what about the superstars that never played with all the talent.. Oscar, moses, karl and others are looked at as lower level players cuz they played with less.. Karl has only himself to blame for not beating the bulls in 97 but he never played with the best talent in the league.. Kareem won with two of the greatest guards ever and some super talented lineups..


What about them?

I guess they weren't as fortunate as those in the top ten.

We can go on all day about this guy and that guy that won with some of the greatest players ever on some "super talented lineups".

So, what is your point?

Do we really have to go over what teammates the players in the top ten had? More than likely, at least one teammate was in the top 30 if not the top 20 of all time as well.

Shaq had Kobe as a teammate, yet, you don't seem to hold that against Shaq. Magic had Kareem, Bird had Parrish, Mchale, etc. Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, etc. Duncan had Robinson, Hakeem had Drexler.

There isn't one player in the history of the game who had scrubby teams with shit coaching and won an NBA title.

But you're going on and on about one guy because he had some good players around him?

Absolutely funny.

[YAWN]

Only have these guys definitely ahead of him at the moment:
jordan, kareem, bird, magic, russell, wilt

He is in the mix with shaq & duncan for 7/8/9. Interchangeable now, but I think he will separate from them as time goes on.

hakeem is my #10

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Top ten yes.....

I got Kobe around 7 or 8.....

Another title n he cracks the top 5.
Think what u want of him....but dude has had a great career period.
Title...records....legendary performances. Kobe got it all.
He also went up against great comp etc.

One thing I like about Kobe is he beat a team that beat him in the Finals. He also won back to back. That right there is legendary.

I agree. I have Kobe around 7-9 right now but if he ties Jordan with 6 rings then he's top 5 in my book.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Only have these guys definitely ahead of him at the moment:
jordan, kareem, bird, magic, russell, wilt

He is in the mix with shaq & duncan for 7/8/9. Interchangeable now, but I think he will separate from them as time goes on.

hakeem is my #10

Agreed. Another title makes him #5 all-time IMO.

[Hulk Hogan]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)

2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD


NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

ESPYS BEST NBA PLAYER
(2010)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career Average- 28ppg (as starter) 5.3reb 4.7ast 1.5stl

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season



THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09


KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4381
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724

http://www.nba.com/lakers/photos/ts_110129kobehakeem670.jpg

Why Keep tryin to bring up this same Agenda BS?

[Lakers13]

Is this even a serious question anymore?

Anyone that has him outside of their top 10 have shown to have biased opinions on Kobe in the past on this board.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

If Kobe plays until he's 38 he could pass Jordan for all-time playoff points. If he were to also win another title then he's definitely top 5.

[Hulk Hogan]

If Kobe plays until he's 38 he could pass Jordan for all-time playoff points. If he were to also win another title then he's definitely top 5.

He is likely to end up with the most points scored by the end of his career.

[madmax]

TOP 25 sounds just about right for this opportunistic chucker:cheers:

[alenleomessi]

James will enter that list soon so there wont be anymore room for Hakeem, Duncan or Kobe i guess
Oh and then comes Griffin, so make it two places :D

[pauk]

1 michael jordan
2 wilt chamberlain
3 oscar robertson
4 kareem abdul jabbar
5 bill russell
6 magic johnson
7 hakeem olajuwon
8 larry bird
9 tim duncan
10 shaquille oneal
11 jerry west
12 julius erving
13 kobe bryant (only 2 rings as the man, sry)
14 john havlicek
15 karl malone - charles barkley

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Kobe's not done yet. It's far from over, as Kobe's adaption to the game results in increased longevity. Kobe might have 6 or 7 rings when all is said and done.

But RIGHT NOW, I think he is in the top 10 already. He's like right at #10. The question is right now, with 5 rings, is that enough to put him over Duncan and Shaq? He might be above Duncan right now, at #9 or #8 at best. I think what Kobe did with a shit team in 05-06 and competing with the #2 seed Phoenix Suns was very impressive. He had a greater impact on the game, and he is not a big.

After Kobe wins #6 this year and the 3rd FInals MVP, I think he's above Shaq and Duncan for sure. Anybody who says Kobe is outside of the top 10 all time is simply biased against Kobe.

[crisoner]

TOP 25 sounds just about right for this opportunistic chucker:cheers:

Looks at avatar....ignores comment.

:facepalm

Anyone saying Kobe isn't in at least the top 10 knows nothing about b-ball...or is just a bonafide hater.

[pauk]

Kobe's not done yet. It's far from over, as Kobe's adaption to the game results in increased longevity. Kobe might have 6 or 7 rings when all is said and done.

But RIGHT NOW, I think he is in the top 10 already. He's like right at #10. The question is right now, with 5 rings, is that enough to put him over Duncan and Shaq? He might be above Duncan right now, at #9 or #8 at best. I think what Kobe did with a shit team in 05-06 and competing with the #2 seed Phoenix Suns was very impressive. He had a greater impact on the game, and he is not a big.

After Kobe wins #6 this year and the 3rd FInals MVP, I think he's above Shaq and Duncan for sure. Anybody who says Kobe is outside of the top 10 all time is simply biased against Kobe.

if so then over duncan maaaaybe
but u cant measure shaq on the career on the accomplishment sheet
he is arguably the most dominant center ever and one of the most dominant players ever
kobe was never dominant like that and didnt impact the game and his team like that

[Lakers13]

1 michael jordan
2 wilt chamberlain
3 oscar robertson
4 kareem abdul jabbar
5 bill russell
6 magic johnson
7 hakeem olajuwon
8 larry bird
9 tim duncan
10 shaquille oneal
11 jerry west
12 julius erving
13 kobe bryant (only 2 rings as the man, sry)
14 john havlicek
15 karl malone - charles barkley


You penalized Kobe for being the man for 2 rings but you have Oscar, Hakeem, West, and Doctor J ahead of him :oldlol:

[pauk]

You penalized Kobe for being the man for 2 rings but you have Oscar, Hakeem, West, and Doctor J ahead of him :oldlol:

ofcourse?
u telling me that kobe was just as good as oscar and so on? hahahahahah

rings are just the icing on top of the cake my lil man! its the CAKE that counts and oscar had the BIGGEST CAKE

[DixieNourmous]

James will enter that list soon so there wont be anymore room for Hakeem, Duncan or Kobe i guess
Oh and then comes Griffin, so make it two places :D

I remember people like this saying the same thing about Vince Carter, T-Mac, Stevie Francis ect ect ect :facepalm


LBJames is a great player
Griffin is playing great as a rookie
Accomplished players they are not.
Anything can happen, one of Kobe`s accomplishments is his ability to play through injuries and avoid the big ones.

[crisoner]

13 kobe bryant (only 2 rings as the man, sry)


Ignorance must be bliss....

Took a team to the Finals three years in a row "as the man" and beat the team that beat him in the Finals who just happen to be the franchises arch rivals the Celtics. Stories like this do not happen in the NBA much.

One half of the probably the best duo that played in the NBA and won 3 straight titles with Shaq. The second fiddle argument is ignorant. I guess you guys think that Pippen a top 50 player of all time and HOF career is a joke if you agree with that. 4 All Star MVP's, lead the NBA in scoring, countless NBA all defense teams and first teams, NBA MVP, Defensive anchor for the USA gold medal team, 100 40 point games, NBA record as 2 guard scoring 81 points and the list goes on.

That is the resume and the man is still playing today and his team will be in contention to win titles for the next at least 2 to 3 years.

People can not argue against his resume...they will fall back to ignorant quotes such as "chucker"..."second fiddle"...."rape"...etc. etc.

So to all of you thinking Kobe is not top 10 please have a Coke and a smile...you know the rest.

Kobe top 10 and rising.

[crisoner]

You penalized Kobe for being the man for 2 rings but you have Oscar, Hakeem, West, and Doctor J ahead of him :oldlol:

The kid probably has no idea what team those players played for in the first place.

And when was it wrong to be the second half of one of the best duo's in the NBA ever? A duo that won three in a row I might add. It is so funny that certain people try to make that a "strike" if you will against Kobe.

IGNORANCE IS BLISS I guess. Freaking kids...lol.

[rodman91]

If duncan is at your 8 and Shaq at 9...then Kobe might be at 10. 2 time MVP & 4 rings & 3 FMVP > 1 MVP & 4 rings & 3 FMVP > 1 MVP & 5 rings & 2FMVP.

I prefer my eye and impact of those players in the league rather than stats,awards & team success though.

[crisoner]

if so then over duncan maaaaybe
but u cant measure shaq on the career on the accomplishment sheet
he is arguably the most dominant center ever and one of the most dominant players ever
kobe was never dominant like that and didnt impact the game and his team like that

Shaq was at one point yes one of the most dominant players of all time. But then what happen...POOR WORK ETHIC. You got to put that in to account as well. I look at Shaq as having yes a great career but he could of DONE MORE.
And that is a huge strike against him in my book. Shaq could of been on talks with his career matching say Kareem, Jordan, and Wilt. But nope...the guy who would come in to the season overwieght and out of shape plus who opps to get surgery's done on company time loses BIG TIME. That why I got Duncan and Kobe over Shaq at this moment.


Funny thing...you know who reminds me of Shaq.....LeBron. Let's see how his career goes.
LeBron IMO can be the greatest player of all time...even top Jordan. But with bad choices "DECISION" and doing things like dancing during a game etc. Might ruin his chances.

[rodman91]

Kobe's not done yet. It's far from over, as Kobe's adaption to the game results in increased longevity. Kobe might have 6 or 7 rings when all is said and done.

But RIGHT NOW, I think he is in the top 10 already. He's like right at #10. The question is right now, with 5 rings, is that enough to put him over Duncan and Shaq? He might be above Duncan right now, at #9 or #8 at best. I think what Kobe did with a shit team in 05-06 and competing with the #2 seed Phoenix Suns was very impressive. He had a greater impact on the game, and he is not a big.

After Kobe wins #6 this year and the 3rd FInals MVP, I think he's above Shaq and Duncan for sure. Anybody who says Kobe is outside of the top 10 all time is simply biased against Kobe.

Lets not forget Duncan has 2 mvp and 3 fmvp.He was the franchise player since 98.Kobe has 1 mvp and 2 fmvp.Franchise player since 2004-2005.

Duncan was most successful player of his generation.Best ? Duncan or Shaq.

[redsoxballer]

lol at anyone who was Kobe in their top 50. He won 3 rings as a 2nd fillde and two as the 3rd best player. thats top 50? Fisher has as many rings, and was the 3rd best player on 3 teams and 4th best on 2. Is he top 50? LOL Kobe needed Gasol and Artest to carry him to a ring last year. And for his first ring Shaq and Rice had to carry his ass. Kobe is good, but Iverson, Tmac, Carter, Wade, Allen, Sprewell, Stackhouse, Richardson, Roy, Redd, Terry, Ellis, Granger, Rose, or most any other SG would have won multiple rings and set scoring records giving the teams and chucking opportunities KoME was given

OT: I would rank him about 83rd, just behind Ben Wallace and slightly ahead of Mitch Richmond

[DixieNourmous]

Redsoxballer ruined his cred in 1 post:lol:lol:lol

[Round Mound]

Top 20

He wasn`t as dominant as other players in the 90s during the Phil Jackson, Jordan and Pippen era

[rodman91]

From his era, Duncan & Shaq must have higher rank than Kobe.Nash,Garnett,Iverson have slightly worse success. (depends on what you give more valuable in player's success)

[madmax]

Top 20

He wasn`t as dominant as other players in the 90s during the Phil Jackson, Jordan and Pippen era

:applause:
The most reasonable post in this Kome slurping fest thread

[rodman91]

Top 20

He wasn`t as dominant as other players in the 90s during the Phil Jackson, Jordan and Pippen era

Yeah, unfortunately Bulls dynasty in 90's era made many player underrated.

[DatDudeD]

:applause:
The most reasonable post in this Kome slurping fest thread

lol... you honestly think Kobe is not ALREADY in the top 10. Its funny how he is the only player in the top 10 that people MAKE UP reasons not to put him there. Its all in black and white people, his ENTIRE resume speaks for itself and its easily top 10 worthy. I personally have him at 8 or 9 his impact or peak wasnt as great as duncans or shaq but relative to his position and longevity hes right there. Im not gonna insult you for having an opinion as skewed as it may be.....

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

Lets not forget Duncan has 2 mvp and 3 fmvp.He was the franchise player since 98.Kobe has 1 mvp and 2 fmvp.Franchise player since 2004-2005.

Duncan was most successful player of his generation.Best ? Duncan or Shaq.

MVP does not necessarily prove dominance. Shaq could have won the MVP every year from 1993-2002. He only won a couple.

[rizzy]

lol at anyone who was Kobe in their top 50. He won 3 rings as a 2nd fillde and two as the 3rd best player. thats top 50? Fisher has as many rings, and was the 3rd best player on 3 teams and 4th best on 2. Is he top 50? LOL Kobe needed Gasol and Artest to carry him to a ring last year. And for his first ring Shaq and Rice had to carry his ass. Kobe is good, but Iverson, Tmac, Carter, Wade, Allen, Sprewell, Stackhouse, Richardson, Roy, Redd, Terry, Ellis, Granger, Rose, or most any other SG would have won multiple rings and set scoring records giving the teams and chucking opportunities KoME was given

OT: I would rank him about 83rd, just behind Ben Wallace and slightly ahead of Mitch Richmond
.....:cheers: :cheers:

[Walduś]

lol at anyone who was Kobe in their top 50. He won 3 rings as a 2nd fillde and two as the 3rd best player. thats top 50? Fisher has as many rings, and was the 3rd best player on 3 teams and 4th best on 2. Is he top 50? LOL Kobe needed Gasol and Artest to carry him to a ring last year. And for his first ring Shaq and Rice had to carry his ass. Kobe is good, but Iverson, Tmac, Carter, Wade, Allen, Sprewell, Stackhouse, Richardson, Roy, Redd, Terry, Ellis, Granger, Rose, or most any other SG would have won multiple rings and set scoring records giving the teams and chucking opportunities KoME was given

OT: I would rank him about 83rd, just behind Ben Wallace and slightly ahead of Mitch Richmond
LOL

[redsoxballer]

LOL

What a thoughtful and intelligent response. KoME without Shaq/Fisher/Gasol/Artest/Rice/Jackson is just a worse version of Stackhouse. Hell, Kobe with a prime Lamar Odom barely sqeaked into the playoffs. Without good teammates KoME is a 16/3/3 36%/29%85% SG on 5-20 win teams Thats top 10? :confusedshrug:

[LA_Showtime]

I don't care where you rank Kobe in comparison to Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, and the newer generation of LeBron, Wade, Anthony, Paul, etc. That doesn't even matter, as he clearly belongs in the same sentence with those guys and probably a notch above a couple of them. Just look at who's dominated the past decade of basketball. Kobe's named is always involved. Hell, the man has spent HALF of his career playing in the NBA Finals. That's just crazy in this day and age. If he retired today, I'd put him at 11 or 12. I doubt he'll ever be higher than the top 8, though. He just hasn't dominated the game in the same way as Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, etc etc.

[Jacks3]

08: 28-6-5-2-58% TS
07: 32-6-5-2-58% TS (17 40+ point games, 10 50 point games)
06: 35-5-5-2-56% TS (27 40+ point games, 7 50+ point games)
03: 30-7-6-2-55% TS
01: 29-6-5-2-55% TS

Epic Playoff Runs

2010: 29/6/6/2/57% TS (Championship)
2009: 30/6/5/2/56% TS (Championship)
2008: 32/6/6/2/58% TS (Championship)
2001: 29/7/6/2/56% TS (Championship)

13 straight 35+ point games, 9 straight 40+ point games (2003)
10 50+ point games in one season (Only Wilt has done so)
4 straight 45+ point games (2007)
4 straight 50+ games (2006)


In his prime dude had the best skill-set in the league, drew as much defensive attention as anyone in the league, was one of the best defenders at his position, was extremely clutch, one of the best non-PG play-makers in the league, was the best scorer in the league, and had great intangibles (competitiveness, work-ethic etc).

Not to mention his absurd longevity. And lol @ clowns assuming he wouldn't have won titles had his team been built around him from the start.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

The thing I find amazing is Kobe turns 33 this summer and the guy is still balling. His game is amazingly similar to Jordan's at the same age.

[LA_Showtime]

The thing I find amazing is Kobe turns 33 this summer and the guy is still balling. His game is amazingly similar to Jordan's at the same age.

Except Kobe's not nearly as athletic or explosive as Jordan was.

[rodman91]

MVP does not necessarily prove dominance. Shaq could have won the MVP every year from 1993-2002. He only won a couple.

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..

[G-Funk]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[bl2k8]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
so lets just toss out all of Kobes playoff performances on the way to get those rings, gtfoh

[The Choken One]

Yes.

[G-Funk]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
What about the fact that kobe was much more efficient, was a better playmaker, and was a VASTLY better defender?

:roll:

[G-Funk]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[MJ23forever]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..

:roll: :lol

what a freaking joke.

this is as retarded as the mj hater that said that without pippen jordan would be dominique wilkins.

[Walduś]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
GTFO :roll:

[G-Funk]

:roll: :lol

what a freaking joke.

this is as retarded as the mj hater that said that without pippen jordan would be dominique wilkins.
FUNNIEST THINK TO ME IS THAT THIS DUDE BELIEVES WHAT HE'S PREACHING..LMAO :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Only couple of guys had dominance similar to Shaq.I agree MVP's are not always mean one player is better than other.But championship rings too.However when people brings top ten list its usually depends on awards & rings.

Lets be honest.. Iverson's career is as good as Kobe if we don't count rings.But there is no thread about him being in top 10 of all times. So awards & rings are usually very important to define someone greatness.I mean, if Karl Malone could able to win those 2 finals, he would be definetely in top 10.

Kobe is top 10 guard of all time.Not a top ten player of all time.Duncan has more valuable accomplishments to be in argument than Kobe.Shaq too.

But for my personal list.. I would rank shaq higher than duncan.Kobe would be in iverson's level. (which is a very good level.) I don't care about awards&rings&stats so much. Just by eye test and player's impact on game..
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[rodman91]

so lets just toss out all of Kobes playoff performances on the way to get those rings, gtfoh

READ IT AGAIN.I said if we don't count! but we do so Kobe deserve to be over iverson in top list.Duncan however, he is easily best choice before kobe for top 10 so far.

Love it or hate it.2 MVP awards.4 rings.3 FMVP.Being franchise player for a decade and making Spurs always on top.Only a Kobe homer can deny these.

[Walduś]

READ IT AGAIN.I said if we don't count! but we do so Kobe deserve to be over iverson in top list.Duncan however, he is easily best choice before kobe for top 10 so far.

Love it or hate it.2 MVP awards.4 rings.3 FMVP.Being franchise player for a decade and making Spurs always on top.Only a Kobe homer can deny these.
Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary is/was Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen was the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denied penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker



80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 5, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 25, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 117, Duncan 9

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2

2008 Playoffs, Lakers 4, Spurs 1

Kobe (guard) 53% FG
Duncan (Bigman) 43% FG

Duncan exposed overrated can't win without Manu and Tony.

:roll:

[rodman91]

:roll: :lol

what a freaking joke.

this is as retarded as the mj hater that said that without pippen jordan would be dominique wilkins.

learn to read. i said if we don't count rings. i'm not saying iverson deserve to be better rank than Kobe.But Duncan..oh yeah.i don't care if it makes you mad..but give the man his credits.He had been better than Kobe so far.

[G-Funk]

learn to read. i said if we don't count rings. i'm not saying iverson deserve to be better rank than Kobe.But Duncan..oh yeah.i don't care if it makes you mad..but give the man his credits.He had been better than Kobe so far.

Even without hardware Iverson is no Kobe.

[MJ23forever]

READ IT AGAIN.I said if we don't count! but we do so Kobe deserve to be over iverson in top list.Duncan however, he is easily best choice before kobe for top 10 so far.

Love it or hate it.2 MVP awards.4 rings.3 FMVP.Being franchise player for a decade and making Spurs always on top.Only a Kobe homer can deny these.

Kobe Bryant:

5 Championship (2000,2001,2002, 2009, 2010)
7 NBA Finals (2000,2001,2002,2004,2008, 2009, 2010)
2 NBA Finals MVP
2 Scoring Titles (2006, 2007)
1 Gold Medal (2008)
4 All-Star MVP (2001,2007, 20099, 2011)
1 NBA MVP (2008)
8 NBA All NBA 1st team
8 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
3 30+ ppg seasons
6 2000+ point seasons
1 SDC (1996)

Tim Duncan:

4 Championships (1999,2003,2005,2007)
4 NBA Finals (1999,2003,2005,2007)
3 Finals MVP (1999,2003, 2005)
0 Scoring Titles
0 Gold Medals
1 All-Star MVP (2004)
2 NBA MVP (2002, 2003)
9 NBA All NBA 1st team
8 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
0 30 ppg seasons
1 2000+ point seasons

:confusedshrug:

its debatable but you act like its not even close

[miles berg]

He is the 10th best player of all time. I don't see how he can move up, the guys above him (Jordan, Jabbar, Russell, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, & Wilt) were all better players. Case could be made that Kobe is better than Russell was but Russell had one hell of a legacy.

But no matter what he accomplishes going forward he will never go past #10 simply because those guys were better players.

[rodman91]

Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary is/was Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen was the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denied penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker



80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 5, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 25, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 117, Duncan 9

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2

2008 Playoffs, Lakers 4, Spurs 1

Kobe (guard) 53% FG
Duncan (Bigman) 43% FG

Duncan exposed overrated can't win without Manu and Tony.

:roll:

WTF?! :roll:

Duncan was primary scorer of Spurs except first year and he was almost primary scorer even there was Robinson.
He was the defense of Spurs.(probably best defensive team of this decade with and without Robinson.) (bowen was one on one defender..lock down defender)
He was always go to guy in every quarter. Last second shots of course would taken by guards or small forwards. (even Duncan usually was that guy)
Do you want Duncan to playmake? :lol
He was best rebounder,blocker,scorer blabla.. It would take a long time what Duncan was Spurs.

Kobe was second option until Shaq went to Heat.While his part is big, Kobe have never been Laker's "Duncan" until shaq went to heat.You can google or youtube it.

Interesting, 4 of Kobe's win over duncan there was Shaq.You can't compare second guy to franchise player in those wins.Before 2004, it was shaq vs duncan.

Kobe******gers are worst.

[redsoxballer]

Kobe has no case over Jerry West. West led scrubs to the Finals 9 times. Kobe had a prime Lamar Odom and lost in the first round. West put up a 40 point triple double in game 7 of the Finals and LOST. Kobe goes 6-24 with a ton of terrible shots and turnovers and cruises to a victory because he gets carried. Big O averaged a triple double his first 5 years in the league. Kobe was riding the bench and Shaq/Fisher/Rices coattails his first 5 years. Big O got a decent player, won 67 games and a ship. Kobe gets a HOFer Gasol and gets owned in the Finals by Boston in 08. Kobe is in the Mitch Richmond/Chris Mullin/Adrian Dantley group of players. Debatable allstars who could score, but hurt their teams with bad shots/no defense, and are better suited as 3rd/4th options on good teams, or the number 1 option on lottery teams

[Jacks3]

He is the 10th best player of all time. I don't see how he can move up, the guys above him (Jordan, Jabbar, Russell, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, & Wilt) were all better players. Case could be made that Kobe is better than Russell was but Russell had one hell of a legacy.

But no matter what he accomplishes going forward he will never go past #10 simply because those guys were better players.
Too bad Prime Kobe is a better player than Magic, Bird, Duncan and Russ. :pimp:

[G-Funk]

He is the 10th best player of all time. I don't see how he can move up, the guys above him (Jordan, Jabbar, Russell, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, & Wilt) were all better players. Case could be made that Kobe is better than Russell was but Russell had one hell of a legacy.

But no matter what he accomplishes going forward he will never go past #10 simply because those guys were better players.

How many of those players won 5 Championships by age 32?
How many of those players got 8X defensive team.?
How many of those players are actually clutch?
How many of those players could score 81pts?
How many of those players can lock down a player?
How many of those players will be top 3 All-time scoring list?
How many of those players won without a top 25 ALL-time player?
How many of those players finished with 16+ All-star appearances?
How many of those players made it to the Finals 7+ times?
How many of those players are leather from any part of the court?

[StacksOnDeck]

What kind of stupid question is this? No sh!t.

[G-Funk]

Kobe had a prime Lamar Odom and lost in the first round.
stopped reading there :oldlol:

[PP34Deuce]

-Kobe when all is said and done will be slightly below jordan when you compare SGs and their careers. He will get that 6th ring..Not this year but he will def get a 6th ring....

-Jordan dealt with more physical defenses....but then Kobe has dealt with more athletic defenders.

-Kobe had 3 years of amazing scoring that matched what Jordan could do. The season he had the highest scoring record, a bad game for him was like 30 points that season.

Side note: I think Lebron will go down as the greatest SF of all time...and his influence on the game will be as great as Jordan Shaq and Kobe.

[rodman91]

Kobe Bryant:

5 Championship (2000,2001,2002, 2009, 2010)
7 NBA Finals (2000,2001,2002,2004,2008, 2009, 2010)
2 NBA Finals MVP
2 Scoring Titles (2006, 2007)
1 Gold Medal (2008)
4 All-Star MVP (2001,2007, 20099, 2011)
1 NBA MVP (2008)
8 NBA All NBA 1st team
8 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
3 30+ ppg seasons
6 2000+ point seasons
1 SDC (1996)

Tim Duncan:

4 Championships (1999,2003,2005,2007)
4 NBA Finals (1999,2003,2005,2007)
3 Finals MVP (1999,2003, 2005)
0 Scoring Titles
0 Gold Medals
1 All-Star MVP (2004)
2 NBA MVP (2002, 2003)
9 NBA All NBA 1st team
8 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
0 30 ppg seasons
1 2000+ point seasons

:confusedshrug:

its debatable but you act like its not even close

I'm not saying it is not even close.they are close but clearly duncan has better achivements.Rings are important to get in top list but 4 rings as main man better than 2 as main man.2 MVP better than 1. Spurs was always contender.Tony & Manu not a Shaq or Gasol.

Personally i don't care if people says he is in top ten or not.I'm not a Kobe fan, i'm not hater.But clearly some players are overrated and some are underrated by media and lots of nba fans believes it as its true. (except homers)

[rodman91]

Even without hardware Iverson is no Kobe.

I love the way you underrate Iverson.Its like saying Barkley,Malone is nowhere near Duncan.You can always watch him on youtube. Thank god there is net or people only remember what media pump up.

I can't believe some of you guys really have fish memories.

[redsoxballer]

Lol, are people arguing KoME is better than Duncan? :facepalm Doesnt he have to pass the other 16 SGs ahead of him before he can get to Duncan? I mean isnt KoME (2 rings as 3rd option, 3 as 2nd) against Paul Westphal more debatable. KoME is still a good deal behind, but its arguable. KoME vs Duncan is Duncan by a landslide. 4 rings as number 1 option > 0. Duncan and a prime Lamar would win 65+ ever year. Kobe and prime Lamar were a lottery team

[AlphaWolf24]

michael jordan 5 losing seasons as "the man"
wilt chamberlain
oscar robertson
kareem abdul jabbar
bill russell
magic johnson
hakeem olajuwon
Bird only 2 rings as "the man"
tim duncan
shaquille oneal
jerry west
julius erving
kobe bryant (only 2 rings as the man, sry)
john havlicek
karl malone - charles barkley


clearly if the mysterious "the man" comes into play...Bill Russell must be "the man"...14 major Basketball titles in 15 seasons as "the Man"....that's alot more Manliness then anyone.



Kobe is already top 5 to the majority of basketball fans....only hardcore fans (the minority) would say otherwise...

5 NBA Titles with over a decade averages of 28ppg 5ast 5reb....and still going.

Kobe is already top 5.....no matter what hard core fan thinks.

[kingkong]

Kobe is definitely top 10, only haters would think otherwise

out of the last decade, Kobe, Shaq and Tim are top 10. How you order them is debatable, I think Tim > Kobe > Shaq right now

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm not saying it is not even close.they are close but clearly duncan has better achivements.Rings are important to get in top list but 4 rings as main man better than 2 as main man.2 MVP better than 1. Spurs was always contender.Tony & Manu not a Shaq or Gasol.

Personally i don't care if people says he is in top ten or not.I'm not a Kobe fan, i'm not hater.But clearly some players are overrated and some are underrated by media and lots of nba fans believes it as its true. (except homers)


"the man" card is silly.....only in 2000 playoff run Shaq was the main weapon (taking over 100 more shots then Kobe)...and scoring roughly 10 more points.


The 01' and 02' playoff shot attempts were nearly even and point differential was 1 - 2 points(I believe for 01' it 29PPG Kobe and 30PPg Shaq). With Kobe as the Obvious Main weapon in crunchtime

again...Kobe took more shots and averaged more points in the 4th quarters of the first 3 peat.

"the man" is the person you have with the ball to finish the game(Not to mention dropping 27 - 28 ppg)....not a foul prone Center who could'nt hit a freethrow to save his career.

so please "the man" holds no weight...especially when the guy your arguing is the man (Shaq)...doesn't have the skillset to be "the man" in the most important part of a game.....Kobe was and still is "the man"



01 + 02 playoff's combined - Kobe - 27PPG 6reb 6ast.....Shaq 29PPG 15 reb 3 ast....

For the 01 - 02 playoff's combined Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%...


yep...Shaq with his 4.5pts on 29% shooting in the 4th quarters is the "man?"

Lakers were calling timeouts to get Shaq OUT OF THE GAME in Crunchtime....



come on son....don't be silly......

[rodman91]

According to homers, Shaq was just a Yinka Dare.:oldlol:

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

I don't think anyone in the last 30 years has won a title without a legit 2nd option. I guess the closest is Hakeem.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Shaq was at one point yes one of the most dominant players of all time. But then what happen...POOR WORK ETHIC. You got to put that in to account as well. I look at Shaq as having yes a great career but he could of DONE MORE.
And that is a huge strike against him in my book. Shaq could of been on talks with his career matching say Kareem, Jordan, and Wilt. But nope...the guy who would come in to the season overwieght and out of shape plus who opps to get surgery's done on company time loses BIG TIME. That why I got Duncan and Kobe over Shaq at this moment.


All that and Kobe has NEVER had any playoff runs that come even close to rivaling Shaq's during the 3-peat.



Do you want Duncan to playmake? :lol


Yeah it's pretty easy to shut that entire post down like you just did. I just wanted to point out one thing. Funny how Kobe's the primary playmaker for his team, yet Duncan only averages 1.6 APG less than Kobe for his career(4.7 to 3.1) in the regular season, and 1.3 APG less than Kobe for his career(4.8 to 3.5) in the playoffs. Yeah, assists are not the be all end all of playmaking, but if Kobe's such a superior playmaker to Duncan, one would imagine that his assist numbers would be much higher than Duncan's. I've seen numerous Spurs games when the ball goes into Duncan in the low post, and he makes a play out of it, whether it's for himself, a teammate, or a hockey assist type play. Duncan was always able to do it all. There's a reason Shaq nicknamed him the Big Fundamental. Kobe's never had a playoff run that's rivaled Duncan's 2003 run. Add in Timmy's other years and he's been the better playoff performer.

Like others have already said in this thread, 10 is the highest Kobe goes because those ahead of him were just flat out BETTER PLAYERS. Plus whether people like it or not, they NEED to accept that there will always be that 2nd fiddle stigma associated with Kobe regarding his rings with Shaq. Nobody ever says that his early rings don't count as Kobe trolls like to make believe. All we say is that things need to be put in the proper context. Nobody puts Scottie Pippen on the level of Michael Jordan during the Bulls championship runs. Nobody puts Kevin McHale on the level of Larry Bird during the Celtics championship runs. Nobody discounts their rings, we just put them in the proper context. The same holds true for Kobe. As much as Kobe trolls try to play revisionist history and make believe that Kobe and Shaq had a 1A/1B dynamic like Magic and Kareem, it just wasn't true. There was a clear pecking order on those Laker teams. The team was built around Shaq, and he was their most important and best player. Everyone and their grandma knew it. I vividly recall teams loading up on big men to throw at Shaq. Nobody loaded up on wing defenders to throw at Kobe.

[JtotheIzzo]

Is Kobe already a top 10 player of all-time?


yes, why is this thread so long?

[MaxFly]

if so then over duncan maaaaybe
but u cant measure shaq on the career on the accomplishment sheet
he is arguably the most dominant center ever and one of the most dominant players ever
kobe was never dominant like that and didnt impact the game and his team like that

Yes, actually, you can...

Shaq was perhaps the most dominant player ever. I don't think there is a single center in history that would have been able to contain him at his peak. Shaq's problem however, was never his talent... it was his attitude and overall approach to the game. By right, Shaq should be in the conversation for best or second best player to ever play, he was so dominant... but his laziness and lack of a solid work ethic has lead him, as crazy as it sounds, to underachieve in many respects.

How can a player, the leader of a team no less, tell his owner, his coach, his teammates and the media that because he got hurt on company time, he'll recuperate on company time. How can a leader consistently come into training camp out of shape? I don't see how those sorts of things don't hurt a player's standing in the end. Shaq's legacy will be that he was an insanely dominant player, the most dominant ever... but that he didn't consistently have the mentality to match the talent. How many of the other top 10 players can you say that about? That definitely has to hurt his standings a little. I just don't think Shaq has achieved as much as he should have.

[MaxFly]

I love the way you underrate Iverson.Its like saying Barkley,Malone is nowhere near Duncan.You can always watch him on youtube. Thank god there is net or people only remember what media pump up.

I can't believe some of you guys really have fish memories.

You're right? Some people don't remember. Let's remind them. Here are a few questions for you.

Take away Bryant's championships...

Between Iverson and Bryant...

Which is the overall better offensive player?

Which is the overall better defensive player?

Which brings more intangibles to the table?

Which player would win in a longevity comparison?

[Doranku]

The extent to which people overrate Kobe's teams is just sickening on this forum. If I had never watched basketball and I based my predictions solely on the garbage spewed on this forum, I'd just assume that Shaq is a merely pseudonym for God and Bynum/Gasol/Odom are just the names of each head of the Cerberus.

[MaxFly]

For the 01 - 02 playoff's combined Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%...


yep...Shaq with his 4.5pts on 29% shooting in the 4th quarters is the "man?"

Lakers were calling timeouts to get Shaq OUT OF THE GAME in Crunchtime....

come on son....don't be silly......

Wow, that can't be right. 29%? I knew it was low, but not that low. Hate to ask you to do this because it might be some work, but can we see the stats of 4th quarter scoring by the Lakers from those two post seasons. If it's too much trouble to post the numbers, hook us up with a basketballreference link. I'd really like to see those numbers.

[Doranku]

"the man" card is silly.....only in 2000 playoff run Shaq was the main weapon (taking over 100 more shots then Kobe)...and scoring roughly 10 more points.


The 01' and 02' playoff shot attempts were nearly even and point differential was 1 - 2 points(I believe for 01' it 29PPG Kobe and 30PPg Shaq). With Kobe as the Obvious Main weapon in crunchtime

again...Kobe took more shots and averaged more points in the 4th quarters of the first 3 peat.

"the man" is the person you have with the ball to finish the game(Not to mention dropping 27 - 28 ppg)....not a foul prone Center who could'nt hit a freethrow to save his career.

so please "the man" holds no weight...especially when the guy your arguing is the man (Shaq)...doesn't have the skillset to be "the man" in the most important part of a game.....Kobe was and still is "the man"



01 + 02 playoff's combined - Kobe - 27PPG 6reb 6ast.....Shaq 29PPG 15 reb 3 ast....

For the 01 - 02 playoff's combined Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%...


yep...Shaq with his 4.5pts on 29% shooting in the 4th quarters is the "man?"

Lakers were calling timeouts to get Shaq OUT OF THE GAME in Crunchtime....



come on son....don't be silly......

If this is true... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Javat_90]

All that and Kobe has NEVER had any playoff runs that come even close to rivaling Shaq's during the 3-peat.



Yeah it's pretty easy to shut that entire post down like you just did. I just wanted to point out one thing. Funny how Kobe's the primary playmaker for his team, yet Duncan only averages 1.6 APG less than Kobe for his career(4.7 to 3.1) in the regular season, and 1.3 APG less than Kobe for his career(4.8 to 3.5) in the playoffs. Yeah, assists are not the be all end all of playmaking, but if Kobe's such a superior playmaker to Duncan, one would imagine that his assist numbers would be much higher than Duncan's. I've seen numerous Spurs games when the ball goes into Duncan in the low post, and he makes a play out of it, whether it's for himself, a teammate, or a hockey assist type play. Duncan was always able to do it all. There's a reason Shaq nicknamed him the Big Fundamental. Kobe's never had a playoff run that's rivaled Duncan's 2003 run. Add in Timmy's other years and he's been the better playoff performer.

Like others have already said in this thread, 10 is the highest Kobe goes because those ahead of him were just flat out BETTER PLAYERS. Plus whether people like it or not, they NEED to accept that there will always be that 2nd fiddle stigma associated with Kobe regarding his rings with Shaq. Nobody ever says that his early rings don't count as Kobe trolls like to make believe. All we say is that things need to be put in the proper context. Nobody puts Scottie Pippen on the level of Michael Jordan during the Bulls championship runs. Nobody puts Kevin McHale on the level of Larry Bird during the Celtics championship runs. Nobody discounts their rings, we just put them in the proper context. The same holds true for Kobe. As much as Kobe trolls try to play revisionist history and make believe that Kobe and Shaq had a 1A/1B dynamic like Magic and Kareem, it just wasn't true. There was a clear pecking order on those Laker teams. The team was built around Shaq, and he was their most important and best player. Everyone and their grandma knew it. I vividly recall teams loading up on big men to throw at Shaq. Nobody loaded up on wing defenders to throw at Kobe.

Kobe Bryant is not the primary play-maker, nobody is in the triangle-offense that this current LA team plays, thats the beauty of it actually.

The only player that averaged more than 6 assists per game in the history of the triangle-offense is Scottie Pippen, but even if this case, he wasnt a pure or primary play-maker, of course he stepped up the ball through the court...etc, but the pure beauty of this system is that the ball is constantly changing through the hands of the players and everyone gets assists because the first objective is: find the open man and get the available shot, dont force things.

Kobe is not at the level of Lebron or even Pippen in terms of play-making, but he could have averaged more assists if not playing for the triangle-offense almost his entire career, because guy has vision and knows how to throw decisive passes.

You are trying to diminish Kobe by saying he only averages one assist more than Duncan when comparing careers...so what? Just because Duncan is a PF means this is embarrasing for Bryant? No. Actually, many PFs can play-make better than SGs or SFs, example is prime Kevin Garnett or Chris Webber, both of them were better passers than Durant or Anthony, or even Vince Carter.


With this said, for me Kobe Bryant is around the 8th to 10th position in the all-time rankings, I find troubled ranking him when compared to Duncan and Hakeem, both are in the same tier, and a tier below Magic, Bird, Shaq...etc.

[rodman91]

You're right? Some people don't remember. Let's remind them. Here are a few questions for you.

Take away Bryant's championships...

Between Iverson and Bryant...

Which is the overall better offensive player?
In Larry Brown years (Iverson's prime and philly's good years) Iverson was the only unguardable player except shaq. He was in one of the most limited offensive team (Ratliff/Mutombo,Eric Snow,David Lynch,Tyrone Hill :lol even cavs have better offensive players) Still noone could stop him.Everybody knew Iverson will shoot and others try to get rebound but still couldn't find a solution.What he did shaq's with size,he did with speed.He has 6th best scoring average of all time.2nd best scoring avering in Playoffs.
Iverson was better passer and assisted more.he was SG/PG. Kobe had better FG% and he is taller,stronger so he had more versality in scoring.Kobe had crazy scoring streaks and 81 point game.But iverson earned most scoring titles in last decade,has better scoring average in career.While 35.4 is greater, iverson put 33 ppg that year with 7.4 apg.
Personally i give the edge Iverson in offense.However, kobe was more versatil.Both of have poor FG%.Probably many Kobe fans go crazy but...
Which is the overall better defensive player?

Iverson in Larry Brown years was pretty good defender.He led the league couple of times in stealings in a team mostly play defense for stealing.He has better career average at stealing.I guess he had playoff record at stealing.However when he gets older he started more gamble to steal.for 6'0 guard he couldn't be lock on defender.Bryant had height and skills.While he is not as good as before at defense in older years,i give edge bryant.He is better overall defender.


Which brings more intangibles to the table?
Equal.They are both players with courage,leadership,toughness with sometimes their scoring too much for a team play.Kobe's workethic is seems much higher than Iverson's.(practice!)Iverson's bond with teammates were much higher than Kobe's. (Shaq's departure,Phil Jackson said he was uncoachable,critisizing his teammates when he shoot poor this year.)


[B]Which player would win in a longevity comparison?
Bryant wasn't starter in first 2 year,(came league earlier than iverson) Iverson was problematic,injured last 2 years..iverson 3 years older.So its almost same at this point.At 32 years old iverson was playin 10 more minutes than Kobe.Iverson also top player at playing time.his career average 41.1. (it could be more if he wasn't scapegoat in detroit.) However Kobe is still in Lakers,contender team so at the end of his career..he will have more longevity.Also he played more in playoffs.


At the end,without championship its very close.Both are arguably best scorers of last decade with similar mentality.First years Iverson overpowers Kobe, Last years Kobe overpowers Iverson.

For the record, I don't mean Kobe isn't good,I say iverson was that good.With 5 championship and 2FMVP he deserve higher rank than iverson.However,kids today even say Ginobili is better than iverson.Ginobili is great player but comparing him to Iverson...:hammerhead: They must be haters or started to watch nba recently.

[ThaRegul8r]

Kobe on passing Big E for 7th on the all-time scoring list: "The ladder I'm more focused on climbing is Bill Russell's ladder."

Yeah. Good luck with that.

:oldlol:

[The_Yearning]

-Kobe when all is said and done will be slightly below jordan when you compare SGs and their careers. He will get that 6th ring..Not this year but he will def get a 6th ring....

-Jordan dealt with more physical defenses....but then Kobe has dealt with more athletic defenders.

-Kobe had 3 years of amazing scoring that matched what Jordan could do. The season he had the highest scoring record, a bad game for him was like 30 points that season.

Side note: I think Lebron will go down as the greatest SF of all time...and his influence on the game will be as great as Jordan Shaq and Kobe.

If Kobe isn't getting his 6th ring this year, he will never get it.

[Replay32]

Definitely 10 IMO.

[IN-PAX-WE-TRUST]

If Kobe isn't getting his 6th ring this year, he will never get it.

I agree with this. The Lakers are a very old team so I think this is their last potential championship. People will point to Boston as an example of a team that can still win with "old guys" but the Lakers are too inconsistent on the defensive end.

[Anaximandro1]

Too close to call.

First tier: Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell

Second tier: Magic,Bird

Third tier: Hakeem,Duncan

Fourth tier:Shaq,Oscar,Kobe