TOP 10 most talented-skilled players ever?

[pauk]

who do u think were the most talented-skilled-efficient 10 players ever? doesnt have to be the most complete allround players only because that would leave out centers (3pt shot, handles, passing, versatility and so on)..... so think about talent, productions to!

here is mine:

1. oscar robertson
2. wilt chamberlain
3. michael jordan
4. lebron james
5. larry bird
6. hakeem olajuwon
7. kareem abdul jabbar
8. magic johnson
9. shaquille oneal
10. elgin baylor

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

evilmonkey is that you?:lol

[kaiiu]

lol at Lebron being on a list of skill:oldlol: :oldlol: I can see if it was a talent only list

[blablabla]

lol @ no kobe bird 5th and hakeem 6th and no dirk no pistol pete

[L.Kizzle]

who do u think were the most talented-skilled 10 players ever? doesnt have to be the most complete allround players only because that would leave out centers so think about talent, productions to!

here is mine:

1. oscar robertson
2. wilt chamberlain
3. michael jordan
4. lebron james
5. larry bird
6. hakeem olajuwon
7. kareem abdul jabbar
8. magic johnson
9. shaquille oneal
10. elgin baylor
Shaq and LeBron are just bigger than every one else.

David Thompson was one of the most skilled players ever, same for T-Mac. Chris Webber also. You basically just made a top-en greatest list ever.

[PowerGlove]

Most skilled? What can't Carmelo Anthony do? Like I'm dead serious.

[KenneBell]

Who is this guy? :oldlol:

[kaiiu]

Most skilled? What can't Carmelo Anthony do? Like I'm dead serious.
exactly Wade is very skilled to

[pauk]

Most skilled? What can't Carmelo Anthony do? Like I'm dead serious.

compared to bron:
handle the ball
pass
basketball iq
more productive scoring
be able to play and dominate 4 positions and even be the best at respective positions
play defense and defend 4 different positions
be a better closer more clutch
be a better leader

yea its only talent that allows lebron all that
lebron is the best allround player and most versatile player since oscar

stupid haters http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/gtfo.gif

[kaiiu]

skilled perimeter players in no order

Kobe
Tmac
Melo
Wade
Nash
Ginobili
Dirk
Tony Parker
Pierce

[PowerGlove]

play pointguard
handle the ball
pass
dominate 4 positions
play defense

compared to lebron

yea its only talent that allows lebron all that

stupid haters http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/gtfo.gif
:oldlol: He called me a Lebron hater y'all!

[kaiiu]

play pointguard
handle the ball
pass
dominate 4 positions
play defense

compared to lebron

yea its only talent that allows lebron all that

stupid haters http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/gtfo.gif

false and most of that besides passing isnt skill

[az00m]

exactly Wade is very skilled to

No he isn't. Wade doesn't have that many great moves. He relies on his speed and body.

Also about lebron and melo. Melo is a far better iso player than lebron is.

[pauk]

false and most of that besides passing isnt skill

passing isnt skill?
hahahahah
so u just wake up one day and be able to make accurate pinpoint lazerbeam thread the needle passes all the time? :roll: :applause:

[alenleomessi]

Pistol Pete .

[PP34Deuce]

Where is Kevin Garnett.....

In the BOS forum, a poster confirmed hes like 160 assists away from 5,000 assists for a PF.

Career plus 20,000 10,000 will hit 5,000, coupled with 1500 each for blocks and steals.

In his Prime could defend the bigger wings like Glen Rice,Tracy Mcgrady,JamalMashburn, and was able to cut off dribble drives on Kobe,Vince,etc... Could also effectively defend the "bigger" PF's like Duncan and Dirk Nowitski.

One of the best post games in the league....great midrange game,athletic freak who had one of the softest touched around the rim when he wasnt in the air...

Hes definitely top 5 all time...

[pauk]

evilmonkey is that you?:lol

shhh! thats not meehh
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mB7qP39EYcc/TBxfVHrJTII/AAAAAAAABA4/iocI-4FoLVE/s1600/liar_liar_ver1.jpg

[pauk]

ffs stop flaming my list and post your own list i asked for R-tards thats all i asked for! srsly!! :oldlol:

[Batz]

who do u think were the most talented-skilled 10 players ever? doesnt have to be the most complete allround players only because that would leave out centers so think about talent, productions to!

here is mine:

1. oscar robertson
2. wilt chamberlain
3. michael jordan
4. lebron james
5. larry bird
6. hakeem olajuwon
7. kareem abdul jabbar
8. magic johnson
9. shaquille oneal
10. elgin baylor
Think I just puked in my mouth a little, evil.

[kaiiu]

passing isnt skill?
hahahahah
so u just wake up one day and be able to make accurate pinpoint lazerbeam thread the needle passes all the time? :roll: :applause:
I said the other stuff BESIDES passing isnt skilled:confusedshrug:

[pauk]

Think I just puked in my mouth a little, evil.

how come? need comfort?

[pauk]

I said the other stuff BESIDES passing isnt skilled:confusedshrug:

yea sry

but anyways what carmelo cant do compared to lebron:
handle the ball
passing
basketball iq
more productive scoring
be able to play and dominate 4 positions and even be the best at respective positions
play defense and defend 4 different positions
be a better closer more clutch
be a better leader

thats all skills intangibles u work upon and leadership & iq come thru experience and skills

its not lebrons vertical leap that allows him to do all that stuff :oldlol:

[kaiiu]

yea sry

but anyways what carmelo cant do compared to lebron:
handle the ball
passing
basketball iq
more productive scoring
be able to play and dominate 4 positions and even be the best at respective positions
play defense and defend 4 different positions
be a better closer more clutch
be a better leader

thats all skills intangibles u work upon and leadership & iq come thru experience and skills

its not lebrons vertical leap that allows him to do all that stuff :oldlol:
Carmelo has a good handle, he just handles by the book an doesnt dribble at the top of the key like a guard the way Bron does.

All around BB IQ Lebron is much better than Melo, but offensive awareness Melo blows him out of the water.

Melo is much more clutch than Lebron is not even a question:facepalm :hammerhead

lebron does score more effeciently but defense is not a skill , its effort and leadership most def aint a skill:lol

jumper- melo
post game- melo
footwork- melo
passing- lebron

thats skill

[pauk]

Melo is much more clutch than Lebron is not even a question:facepalm :hammerhead


i stopped reading right there! haaahahahahahahahahahahahaha looooooooooooool melo more clutch than lebron!!!! hHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hh

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

jezzzzuzz!!! might aswell then bring back CARMELO TO BEING TOP 5 TODAY??? OR? Hahahahahah
he aint even top 5 today!

1 lebron
2 wade
3 kobe
4 dwight
5 durant
6 dirk
7 rose
8 amare
9 bosh? boozer? carmelo?

[Disaprine]

^^^^:lol

[kaiiu]

i stopped reading right there! haaahahahahahahahahahahahaha looooooooooooool melo more clutch than lebron!!!! hHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hh

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

jezzzzuzz!!! might aswell then bring back CARMELO TO BEING TOP 5 TODAY??? OR? Hahahahahah
:facepalm so lebron is more clutch than Melo?:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[PP34Deuce]

Melo is going to be late 2010- version of Paul Pierce.... will grow up eventually and mature to be a very good defender, and play well into his late 30's.... be overlooked by other flashy Swingmen even though in games against his peers he matches their output more often than not.

Im not even a big Carmelo Fan,but offensively he can do everything you need...once he checks his attitude he will be even better.

[TheNaturalWR]

No he isn't. Wade doesn't have that many great moves. He relies on his speed and body.

Also about lebron and melo. Melo is a far better iso player than lebron is.

You obviously don't watch Wade.... Wade has the 2nd best post game for a 2-guard behind Kobe. His euro step is clearly the best in the league. His crossover as we all know is deadly. Clearly the best passer at his position and once upon a time his mid range jumper was deadly. He's getting back to that now as we've seen in the past 3 games. Wade doesn't rely solely on his athleticism.

[Round Mound]

At Center: Kareem and Hakeem

PF: Barkley and Webber

SF: Bird and Barry

SG: Big 0 and Jordan

PG: Magic and John Stockton

[MasterDurant24]

:facepalm so lebron is more clutch than Melo?:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Yes, he is.

Anyways, David Thompson should be on the list without a doubt.

[MMKM]

who do u think were the most talented-skilled 10 players ever? doesnt have to be the most complete allround players only because that would leave out centers so think about talent, productions to!

here is mine:

1. oscar robertson
2. wilt chamberlain
3. michael jordan
4. lebron james
5. larry bird
6. hakeem olajuwon
7. kareem abdul jabbar
8. magic johnson
9. shaquille oneal
10. elgin baylor

Eh, wut? Why would that leave out centers? How is a center less well-rounded than a guard, am I reading that right?

[DaHeezy]

I love how all ISH can do is criticize

[Teanett]

passing isnt skill?
hahahahah
so u just wake up one day and be able to make accurate pinpoint lazerbeam thread the needle passes all the time? :roll: :applause:

reading comprehension is a skill you obviously don't posses.

[JGXEN]

P-Dub is one of the most skilled player in the L

[G-Funk]

evilmonkey is that you?:lol
whatever happened to that idiot?

[pauk]

Eh, wut? Why would that leave out centers? How is a center less well-rounded than a guard, am I reading that right?

dude come on?
a center can be wellrounded for a center
but a center can rarely (i mean never) be wellrounded as a basketball player all in all
a center doesnt go and play point-forward and dominate 5 positions and shoot fadeaways just after braking a pointguards ankles with a pivot behind the back between the legs crossover average 10 assists and has the michael jordan scoring arsenal

a center to possess so much skills & talent to be so wellrounded-allround-versatile-athletic as lets say oscar jordan lebron would mean like creating a 7+ footer in NBA 2K11 and setting all ratings at 99 :oldlol:

[pauk]

whatever happened to that idiot?

he was busy with
(see avatar)

[pauk]

*BUMP*

wanna see more lists! :pimp:

[bizil]

Where is Kevin Garnett.....

In the BOS forum, a poster confirmed hes like 160 assists away from 5,000 assists for a PF.

Career plus 20,000 10,000 will hit 5,000, coupled with 1500 each for blocks and steals.

In his Prime could defend the bigger wings like Glen Rice,Tracy Mcgrady,JamalMashburn, and was able to cut off dribble drives on Kobe,Vince,etc... Could also effectively defend the "bigger" PF's like Duncan and Dirk Nowitski.

One of the best post games in the league....great midrange game,athletic freak who had one of the softest touched around the rim when he wasnt in the air...

Hes definitely top 5 all time...


Great point on KG! He belongs in a top ten list for players who are the complete package skillset wise. But for me the key is how u translate those skills on the court. Along with the impact and numbers u put up. For my list, Im going to throw in defensive impact as well. So as great as Magic and Bird are, they aren't going to make my list due to defense:

1st team

PG: Big O
SG: MJ
SF: Pippen (Bron's jumper isn't as good as Pip's. Bron is the better player clearly, but I feel Pip could do ANYTHING on a bball court skill wise very good or great. If Pip had more takeover ability, he would be a top 12-15 GOAT player)
PF: KG
C: Hakeem

2nd team

PG: Gary Payton-Frazier( mortal lock for me, cant really decide between the two.)
SG: Kobe
SF: Hondo
PF: Webber (could be Duncan here. But Webb's versatility was off the hook in his prime. Barkley could go here too, but defense hurts Chuck)
C: Walton

I know my list ain't what a lot of people are looking for. But I'm factoring skill for skill what players can do very good to great. I put Hondo over Bird and Barry due to defensive impact. He had point forward skills on top of it as well. I even put Hondo over Bron cause his jump shot is more consistent. Now Bron I feel is superior to Hondo. But skill for skill, Pip and Hondo don't have any holes in their games at all. At center, skill for skill I think Hakeem and Walton are the best slightly over Kareem and Robinson. Once again, I feel Kareem is the best of all of them. But skill for skill, I will take Hakeem and Walton slightly. And Webber and KG had the ability to play big like players 6'10 and up should. But they have the skillset of point forwards which is crazy. U notice I didn't say SF, cause a guy like Dirk has SF type scoring skills. But Webb and KG had that AND facillator skills on the level on the elite point forward type players. I've always felt Webb,KG, and Dirk changed the PF spot big time.

[RRR3]

No order

MJ
T-Mac
Kobe
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
LBJ
VC
KG

Something like that....I guess...lol

[PowerGlove]

Melo cant defend or pass as well as Bron can, but dude can put the ball in the basket in any way ever thought of.

[Round Mound]

[B]Barkley is Top 10 and N

[bballnoob1192]

the only list that pauk can't put lebron on is champions list. because he can't come up with any of his retarded "reasons" except the same old "team" accomplishment.

[knickswin]

It kind of interests me how people regard Jordan skill-wise, I've heard opinions ranging from he's the most skilled player of all time to people saying he was mostly athleticism. Personally, I think he was quite skilled, but not the most of all time. Kobe is just all-around more skilled, better handle, better range on his jumpshot, more offensive moves. I would say TMac had better handle, possibly better range, and a better face-up game. Pierce and Carmelo I think have better offensive polish too.

I definitely think this generation is the most skilled generation. You have small forwards today with better handle than the point guards of the 80s. Also, power forwards like Garnett, Dirk, Bosh, and Amar'e are better shooters than most of the guys from the previous generation.

Perimeter guys I would consider really skilled:

Kobe
Pierce
Carmelo
TMac
Manu
Jordan
Bernard King
Bird--I go back and forth on this. Definitely didn't have a flashy game, but was a competent enough dribble and a great shooter and passer which was all he needed to be a great player.

[knickswin]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Barkley is Top 10 and N

[LoneyROY7]

compared to bron:
handle the ball
pass
basketball iq
more productive scoring
be able to play and dominate 4 positions and even be the best at respective positions
play defense and defend 4 different positions
be a better closer more clutch
be a better leader

yea its only talent that allows lebron all that
lebron is the best allround player and most versatile player since oscar

stupid haters http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/gtfo.gif

Did someone really just post that LeBron is a "better closer" and "more clutch" then Carmelo?

:facepalm

I know this dude is hanging from LeBron's ball hair, but...wow. Just wow.

[pauk]

Did someone really just post that LeBron is a "better closer" and "more clutch" then Carmelo?

:facepalm

I know this dude is hanging from LeBron's ball hair, but...wow. Just wow.

Glad you brought that up... you see... im a man of facts.... so its easy to prove...

these facts...

Gamewinning shots since 2002-03
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

www.82games.com

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2009-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2011-clutch-stats.jpg

i dont see any anthony ahead of lebron there..........

and i definitely havent seen even ONE game of Anthony CLUTCHNESS in the playoffs......... before he joined the KNicks he has not won a playoff series in YEARS..... has not been even close to as clutch as Lebron when it mattered there either.... IN THE PLAYOFFS...... Carmelo has been a huge choke artist in the Playoffs

Melo being more clutch than Lebron has been only a Lebron haters MYTH....

Yes I like Lebron....... but i dont throw crazy statements out there like you... i am not delusional... i tell only the TRUTH... the truth based on FACTS / PROOF

[LoneyROY7]

Glad you brought that up... you see... im a man of facts.... so its easy to prove...

these facts...

Gamewinning shots since 2002-03
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

www.82games.com

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2009-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2011-clutch-stats.jpg

i dont see any anthony ahead of lebron there..........

and i definitely havent seen even ONE game of Anthony CLUTCHNESS in the playoffs......... before he joined the KNicks he has not won a playoff series in YEARS..... has not been even close to as clutch as Lebron when it mattered there either.... IN THE PLAYOFFS...... Carmelo has been a huge choke artist in the Playoffs

Melo being more clutch than Lebron has been only a Lebron haters MYTH....

Yes I like Lebron....... but i dont throw crazy statements out there like you... i am not delusional... i tell only the TRUTH... the truth based on FACTS / PROOF

ROFL. Are you really trying to destroy yourself? Check the FG percentage on those charts you threw up. LeBron shoots 34 percent on game-winners...Anthony 48 percent.

[pauk]

ROFL. Are you really trying to destroy yourself? Check the FG percentage on those charts you threw up. LeBron shoots 34 percent on game-winners...Anthony 48 percent.

he took also 23 less shots.... cherry picking...

and once again... take a look at the 4th quarter and Clutch points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals.....

and last but not least... take a look at their clutchness in playoffs, where it matters aswell....



:facepalm @ these dreamer boys trying to debate against FACTS...

[LoneyROY7]

he took also 23 less shots.... cherry picking...

and once again... take a look at the 4th quarter and Clutch points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals.....

and last but not least... take a look at their clutchness in playoffs, where it matters aswell....

You only call it cherry picking because it doesn't favor your lover.

[pauk]

You only call it cherry picking because it doesn't favor your lover.

and you ignore everything else and try to twist things because FACTS doesnt favor YOUR lover...

stop wasting my time... present facts.. data... to prove that Lebron is not more clutch like you dream about or http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/gtfo.gif

[LoneyROY7]

and you ignore everything else and try to twist things because FACTS doesnt favor YOUR lover...

I'm going to make a poll on ISH to sort this out for you.

[pauk]

I'm going to make a poll on ISH to sort this out for you.

opinions (from a kobetard/lebron hater infested forum) are only farts in the sky..... FACTS ARE FACTS

sorry

[Rooster]

opinions (from a kobetard/lebron hater infested forum) are only farts in the sky..... FACTS ARE FACTS

sorry

The most important FACT is Lebron = 0 ring.

[PTB Fan]

Your list is nice. I won't argue the order because it's an opinion. However, Shaq doesn't belong in this list. Insert KG instead and that's a great list in there. And throw out Kareem out of the list too. Add Kidd instead

[knightfall88]

Step 1. think of some conditions that can include every great player
Step 2. modify conditions in anyway possible to exclude kobe but include Lebron
Step 3. make list on discussion forum
Step 4. sleep soundly at night

[OmniStrife]

Most skilled? What can't Carmelo Anthony do? Like I'm dead serious.
Lose weight.

[RRR3]

Lose weight.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[colts19]

At Center: Kareem and Hakeem

PF: Barkley and Webber

SF: Bird and Barry

SG: Big 0 and Jordan

PG: Magic and John Stockton

Great list, but I might replace Hakeem with Walton. Not saying Walton was greater just more skilled.

[ukplayer4]

webber is a great call at pf

[Harison]

Center: Hakeem

PF: Garnett

SF: Bird

SG: Jordan

PG: Magic

[D-Wade316]

C: Wilt

PF: Duncan

SF: Lebron

SG: MJ

PG: OScar

[Kellogs4toniee]

Talent-Wise :

Center - Wilt
Power Forward - Chris Webber
Forward - Lebron
SG - Jordan
PG - Magic Johnson



Skill-Wise :

Center - Hakeem
Power Forward - Tim Duncan
Forward - Bird
SG - Jordan
PG - Steve Nash

[Round Mound]

C: Kareem
PF: Barkley
SF: Bird
SG: Jordan
PG: Magic

[OldSchoolBBall]

C: Wilt

PF: Duncan

SF: Lebron

SG: MJ

PG: OScar

Huh? Sf is EASILY Bird.

[pauk]

Huh? Sf is EASILY Bird.

Bird is a much better shooter... but Lebron is much better defender (more versatile to position wise)... depends on what u want most...

but u cant go wrong with either man...

[jjayfive]

lebron is the most talented player i have ever seen, but he doesn't have elite skills....

[pauk]

a question to you dudes who picked Magic over Oscar...

why? :D

magic was cool and all... but damn, Oscar...

he could score with the best
he could shoot with the best
he could pass with the best
he could defend with the best
he could be clutch with the best
he could be versatile with the most versatile

averaged 30-10-10 over his first 6 seasons....

dunno how u can turn that dude down :D

[pauk]

lebron is the most talented player i have ever seen, but he doesn't have elite skills....

talent is something you are born with, a gift, genetics if u may.... his athleticism for example... but him being this great is not just because of his athleticism... if lets say im wrong then that would mean guys like Harold Miner, James White, Gerald Green and so on would be GOAT's....

you have to have major scoring skills to score like he does (lets not act like all he does is jumps over 5 defenders like if he was playing NBA JAM on nintendo or something)
you have to have major ballhandling skills to do what he does ..
you have to have major court vision & passing skills to make those passes...
you have to have major bball IQ to make those telepathic anticipations, decisions and have such great leadership...
you have to have major confidence in your skills to be clutch...
and so on and so on

Lebron is not the most SKILLED ever... but he has elite skills and on top of that talent which he uses perfectly with his skills (like Jordan and so on)... a combination which makes him what he is today... :rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bird is a much better shooter... but Lebron is much better defender (more versatile to position wise)... depends on what u want most...

but u cant go wrong with either man...

No, Bird was a better shooter, off the ball player, post player, had better footwork, was a better rebounder, was a better passer etc. He was also a better team/help defender.

Any edge in defense Lebron has is almost entirely attributable to his athletic gifts, not skill. Lebron's not out there using SKILL to force guys to use bad footwork, go to their weak hands/moves, cutting off their angles for passes etc. He is simply able to be more effective than Bird as a man defender because he's a far superior athlete.

[RRR3]

talent is something you are born with, a gift, genetics if u may.... his athleticism for example... but him being this great is not just because of his athleticism... if lets say im wrong then that would mean guys like Harold Miner, James White, Gerald Green and so on would be GOAT's....

you have to have major scoring skills to score like he does (lets not act like all he does is jumps over 5 defenders like if he was playing NBA JAM on nintendo or something)
you have to have major ballhandling skills to do what he does ..
you have to have major court vision & passing skills to make those passes...
you have to have major bball IQ to make those telepathic anticipations, decisions and have such great leadership...
you have to have major confidence in your skills to be clutch...
and so on and so on

Lebron is not the most SKILLED ever... but he has elite skills and on top of that talent which he uses perfectly with his skills (like Jordan and so on)... a combination which makes him what he is today... :rolleyes:

For real? I could have sworn that's how he gets all his points....


























:lol

[hammer2010]

Where's Penny? WHERE'S PENNY? WHHHEEERRREE'SS PENNYYYY!!!!!!

http://ubcpsyc.com/uploads/christian-bale-pulls-an-american-psycho.jpg

[MasterDurant24]

Talent-Wise :

Center - Wilt
Power Forward - Chris Webber
Forward - Lebron
SG - Jordan
PG - Magic Johnson



Skill-Wise :

Center - Hakeem
Power Forward - Tim Duncan
Forward - Bird
SG - Jordan
PG - Steve Nash

Right on the money:cheers:

[pauk]

No, Bird was a better shooter, off the ball player, post player, had better footwork, was a better rebounder, was a better passer etc. He was also a better team/help defender.

Any edge in defense Lebron has is almost entirely attributable to his athletic gifts, not skill. Lebron's not out there using SKILL to force guys to use bad footwork, go to their weak hands/moves, cutting off their angles for passes etc. He is simply able to be more effective than Bird as a man defender because he's a far superior athlete.

dunno about footwork (how do you measure that anyways between the two?)... Bird is my all-time favorite player alongside Reggie Miller.... but cmon? Lebron certainly "works his feet" better with or without the ball lol...

and the passing... close but nah... lebron has been just more consistant & productive on that end and has accumulated more highlights from that end to.... he is a better passer also because he is a better ballhandler... a drafted point-guard who still to this day will play PG from time to time and when he does, he dominates it.... just like when he did in his Cavs days averaging 12 APG as a starting PG for 12 games in a row... including ending up with the highest assist average by a Non-PG in NBA history...

Bird sure is a close 2nd tho...

[knickswin]

Bird definitely, definitely, definitely 100% without a doubt was a better passer and had better footwork than Lebron. I regard Larry Bird as possibly the best passer who ever played the game.

[Round Mound]

Funny to see Duncan as more skilled than Barkley. Get F-Real People...Barkley was Way More Skilled than Duncan

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bird definitely, definitely, definitely 100% without a doubt was a better passer and had better footwork than Lebron. I regard Larry Bird as possibly the best passer who ever played the game.

It's a joke that anyone could believe that Lebron is a better passer than Bird, and especially that Lebron has better footwork. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

lol @ Bird being a better help/team defender than LeBron. Unbelievable. Just wow.

[knightfall88]

Bird is a much better shooter... but Lebron is much better defender (more versatile to position wise)... depends on what u want most...


yes depends on what you want. If you want to lose you pick Lebron, if you want to win you pick Bird.

[Lucifer]

How is Kobe not on your list? :roll: He, like MJ, can do just about anything. Post game, outside game, midrange game, playmaker/handles, high bball IQ and plays D.

How the EFF is Shaq on that list. If he was 50 pounds lighter and 3-4 inches shorter he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain came into the league with a very good outside game. Even HOF coach Red Holzman acknowledged that fact. And, of course, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE which CONFIRMS that fact.

True, his FT shooting got progressively worse, BUT, he STILL ranks 14th all-time in FTs MADE. And in his 61-62 season, he MADE 835 FTs, which is the second greatest season in NBA history, right behind Jerry West's 840 in 65-66.

And, his IMPACT at the line was clearly illustrated by the fact that his team's either led the league, or were near the top of the league, in FT attempts almost every season. And, to prove that point, in his 68-69 season, his Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. He was injured in the 69-70 season, and he missed 70 games. The Lakers fell to ELEVENTH in the league in FTAs in that season. THEN, when he returned for the playoffs, his Lakers' RAN AWAY with the most FTAs in the post-season (they attempted 655 FTAs in that post-season, and the next best team took 455!)

Ok, so while he was a poor FT shooter, his IMPACT at the line was SIGNIFICANT.

Now, how about the rest of his "skills?" He averaged 40 ppg...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED. He has the FOUR highest scoring seasons in NBA history. And, while MJ was the greatest post-season scorer in NBA history, in Chamberlain's "scoring seasons" (his first seven seasons, and covering his first six post-seasons), all Wilt did was average 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shoot .510 (in league's that averaged about .430 shooting)...COMBINED! Included in those post-seasons, were FOUR of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and even 37.0 ppg. And included in those post-seasons, were series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and a staggering 38.6 ppg (along with 23.0 rpg, and on .559 shooting.) He also had FOUR entire playoff series against Russell of 30+ ppg, and included in that, was a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, seven game series against Russell in the 64-65 ECF's. AND, Wilt had FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including a 56-35 clinching game five (in a best-of-five series), and a 50-35 "elimination game" against Russell in the '60 ECF's. He also hung a 46-34 game on Russell in a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's, and a 45-27 "must-win" game six (on 20-27 shooting) in the '70 Finals (and on ONE leg.)

Efficiency? Wilt has the two highest seasons in NBA history (and they BLEW AWAY the league average by margins of .244 and .271), and three of the top-5 seasons of all-time. And Chamberlain routinely outshot the league average by 100+ points in the process...even in his "scoring seasons."

Defense? I always get a kick out of those that point out that Wilt' scoring and FG%'s declined in the post-season. How about his OPPOSING centers, of which he faced a HOF center in TWO-THIRD's of his post-season games? He held Russell to around .420 in the '62 ECF's (Russell shot 50% in his seven Finals games, and .458 overall in his 14 playoff games.) He also averaged 29 ppg on .517 shooting against Russell in the '64 Finals...and Russell averaged 11 ppg against Wilt. I don't have Russell's FG% in that series, but Russell shot .356 over the course of the entire playoffs, and half of his ten playoff games came against Wilt.

And, how about this...in Russell's '65 Finals, and against the Lakers, he averaged 18 ppg on a Finals record of .702 FG%. BUT, against Wilt in the '65 ECF's, he averaged 15 ppg on .451 shooting (which was probably his highest FG% series ever against Wilt...while Wilt averaged a 30-31 series against Russell.) AND, Russell led Boston in scoring in the '66 Finals, at 23.6 ppg. Against Wilt in the previous ECF's? 14 ppg (while Wilt averaged a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 series against Russell.)

In the '67 ECF's, Wilt held Russell, who had shot .454 during the regular season, to .358 shooting in the ECF's (while Chamberlain shot .556 against Russell.) And in the '67 Finals, Wilt outshot Thurmond, .560 to .343.

In the '67-68 playoffs, Wilt held 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, who had shot .541 during the regular season, to .421 shooting.

In the 70-71 WCF's, and against Kareem, Wilt held Jabbar, who had shot .577 during the regular season, to .481 shooting.

And in the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem, who had shot .574 in the regular season, to .457 shooting (including .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games.)

And in the 72-73 WCF's, Wilt not only outrebounded Thurmond, per game, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg,...he outshot Nate, .550 to .392.


Shot-blocking? Wilt is generally regarded as the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. In fact, in his 71-72 season, at age 35, he was estimated at between 7-8 bpg, and in the WCF's against a prime Kareem, he blocked 15+ of Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hooks. In his prime, Wilt was estimated to have had SEASONS of 10+ bpg. AND, while the "official" NBA record for blocked shots in a game is listed 17 by Elmore Smith in the 73-74 season, Wilt had a RECORDED game of 23 blocks in a nationally televised game in the 68-69 season (and Harvey Pollack had one game of 25 blocks as well.)

Rebounding? Quite simply...Wilt was the greatest rebounder of all-time. He not only led the NBA in ELEVEN of his 14 seasons (and would have led it in his 69-70 season had he not been injured), he was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-seasons series, EIGHT of which were against Russell. And in downright BURIED his opposing centers in most of them (including a 32-23 rpg margin over Russell in the '67 ECF's.)

Assists? Wilt not only LED the NBA in assists in the 67-68 season, he came in THIRD in the 66-67 season (and he then averaged 9.2 apg in the post-season.) In fact, no other center has ever averaged more than 5.8 apg in a season...and Wilt had seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg (as well as 5.2 apg in his '66 season, when he also averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting, and with 24.6 rpg.)

So, in terms of all-around "skills", Wilt was by FAR, the most "skilled" center of all-time.

[pauk]

It's a joke that anyone could believe that Lebron is a better passer than Bird, and especially that Lebron has better footwork. :oldlol:

Its very easy to see Lebron is a better passer, mr oldschool sympathy.... you need to grow out of it man... if what Lebron has done since highschool to this day in that department is not enough for you, then i dont know what is.... its almost like you have not watched him at all... i can help you with that.... there is enough of footage.... and statistical data and facts to back it up..... that Lebron is a better passer..... and once again please remember i regard Bird as my favorite player of all time (alongside Reggie)..... he is a close 2nd in that department as a Non-PG.... but not better....

and dont bother responding to knickswin, he thinks Carmelo is a better player.... a known Lebron hater... he thinks Larry is the best passer ever aswell didnt you read? that is kindof absurd....

[Tha Catalyst]

Its very easy to see Lebron is a better passer, mr oldschool sympathy.... you need to grow out of it man... if what Lebron has done since highschool to this day in that department is not enough for you, then i dont know what is.... its almost like you have not watched him at all... i can help you with that.... there is enough of footage.... and statistical data and facts to back it up..... that Lebron is a better passer..... and once again please remember i regard Bird as my favorite player of all time (alongside Reggie)..... he is a close 2nd in that department as a Non-PG.... but not better....

and dont bother responding to knickswin, he thinks Carmelo is a better player.... a known Lebron hater... he thinks Larry is the best passer ever as well didnt you read? that is kindof absurd....
This is blasphemy. Absolutely shocking and totally disgusting. You love Lebron, that's cool, he is a freak of nature once in a lifetime athlete. Probably the best body made for basketball ever (save maybe Shaq/Wilt). But to even suggest he is a better passer than Larry is stupid. I don't know by what measure he is a better passer. At the time of Magic- you know, the consensus best passer of all time- many regarded Bird as the best passer in the league. So his opinion is less absurd than saying Lebron was a better passer than Bird. Lebron isn't even considered a better passer than Rondo, Nash, Kidd who honestly are not on Magic's level. Bird is nowhere even close to my favorite player but I believe his skills are unmatched. Purely skill wise, which is the topic you yourself created, Bird is greater than Lebron, Kobe, MJ, you name it. Get a clue

[pauk]

This is blasphemy. Absolutely shocking and totally disgusting.

the feeling is actually very mutual.... Bird was not a better passer...


You love Lebron, that's cool,

and you hate him... :confusedshrug:


But to even suggest he is a better passer than Larry is stupid.

how come... tell me? i would be glad to hear....

take a look at his productions on that end... and take a look at his highlights for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8&NR=1

then come back and think again how stupid it could be.... Bird could NOT create exactly like that, not to that MAGNITUDE OF 9 ASSISTS A GAME....

Lebron is a drafted pointguard at 6'8" just because of his COURT VISION / PASSING ABILITY... that is his secondary position to this day... and when he has started it he has averaged 12.1 assists a game in a span of 12 games in a row starting PG for Cavs in 2009-10 when Mo Williams was injured........ thats something Larry Bird could not do...

stop exagarrating... i beg you...




I don't know by what measure he is a better passer.

the ability to thread the needle, to find passing angles, consistancy, accuracy, anticipation, court vision... how well you can do that on the move to with your ballhandling.... and how much you can do it....

each in whitch Lebron catapults over Bird....



At the time of Magic- you know, the consensus best passer of all time- many regarded Bird as the best passer in the league.

i disagree... i never heard anybody say Bird was the best passer... amongst the likes of Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Magic and so on in the league.... no... Bird was not better than them in that department...



So his opinion is less absurd than saying Lebron was a better passer than Bird.

wtf are you talking about? Lebron has been called the best passer in the league by many (and im not talking about fans).... McHale said it on TNT, Magic has said on TNT (he said that Lebron is one of the top passers in the league)

and since Lebrons draft day, even before he came to the NBA... ALL scouting reports said that only maybe 5 players in the NBA had the same passing ability as him...

Lebron is the most productive passer in NBA history as a non-PG.....

to think Lebron being a better passer than Larry is absurd... IS THE ONLY ABSURD THING....



Lebron isn't even considered a better passer than Rondo, Nash, Kidd who honestly are not on Magic's level.

and they are not considered better passers than him... only by fanboys.... who think that passing ability is just about who passes the most and averages the most assists....




Bird is nowhere even close to my favorite player but I believe his skills are unmatched. Purely skill wise, which is the topic you yourself created, Bird is greater than Lebron, Kobe, MJ, you name it. Get a clue

i agree... but now we are talking about passing ability here...

[sh0wtime]

To me Lebron has more than affirmed to deserve that honor or at least hold water with Larry Bird in express of passing ability, The Catalyst & OldSchoolBBall. He has assuredly & gently been more of a variable & constructive passer than Larry Bird was and this comes from a old man who had time to contemplate most of their games live. I deliver this message with the full conscious awareness of probably being compared to Pauk yet again for not belittleling Lebron, so be it.

[pauk]

To me Lebron has more than affirmed to deserve that honor or at least hold water with Larry Bird in express of passing ability, The Catalyst & OldSchoolBBall. He has assuredly & gently been more of a variable & constructive passer than Larry Bird was and this comes from a old man who had time to contemplate most of their games live. I deliver this message with the full conscious awareness of probably being compared to Pauk yet again for not belittleling Lebron, so be it.

:applause:

[knightfall88]

^lol this guy, I think EVERYONE on this forum knows you two are the same person by now:roll:

[pauk]

^lol this guy, I think EVERYONE on this forum knows you two are the same person by now:roll:

lol im not him dude.... i only wish!! i never had anything against ppl thinking im showtime.... no similarity whatsofreakinever... but i dont give a damn... i dont like how he overrates tragic johnson.... but he is a great poster!! very intelligent and unbiased (if u dont factor magic lol) and great bball knowledge......... so its a compliment!!

[PTB Fan]

Chamberlain came into the league with a very good outside game. Even HOF coach Red Holzman acknowledged that fact. And, of course, we have VIDEO FOOTAGE which CONFIRMS that fact.

True, his FT shooting got progressively worse, BUT, he STILL ranks 14th all-time in FTs MADE. And in his 61-62 season, he MADE 835 FTs, which is the second greatest season in NBA history, right behind Jerry West's 840 in 65-66.

And, his IMPACT at the line was clearly illustrated by the fact that his team's either led the league, or were near the top of the league, in FT attempts almost every season. And, to prove that point, in his 68-69 season, his Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. He was injured in the 69-70 season, and he missed 70 games. The Lakers fell to ELEVENTH in the league in FTAs in that season. THEN, when he returned for the playoffs, his Lakers' RAN AWAY with the most FTAs in the post-season (they attempted 655 FTAs in that post-season, and the next best team took 455!)

Ok, so while he was a poor FT shooter, his IMPACT at the line was SIGNIFICANT.

Now, how about the rest of his "skills?" He averaged 40 ppg...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED. He has the FOUR highest scoring seasons in NBA history. And, while MJ was the greatest post-season scorer in NBA history, in Chamberlain's "scoring seasons" (his first seven seasons, and covering his first six post-seasons), all Wilt did was average 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shoot .510 (in league's that averaged about .430 shooting)...COMBINED! Included in those post-seasons, were FOUR of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and even 37.0 ppg. And included in those post-seasons, were series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and a staggering 38.6 ppg (along with 23.0 rpg, and on .559 shooting.) He also had FOUR entire playoff series against Russell of 30+ ppg, and included in that, was a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, seven game series against Russell in the 64-65 ECF's. AND, Wilt had FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including a 56-35 clinching game five (in a best-of-five series), and a 50-35 "elimination game" against Russell in the '60 ECF's. He also hung a 46-34 game on Russell in a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's, and a 45-27 "must-win" game six (on 20-27 shooting) in the '70 Finals (and on ONE leg.)

Efficiency? Wilt has the two highest seasons in NBA history (and they BLEW AWAY the league average by margins of .244 and .271), and three of the top-5 seasons of all-time. And Chamberlain routinely outshot the league average by 100+ points in the process...even in his "scoring seasons."

Defense? I always get a kick out of those that point out that Wilt' scoring and FG%'s declined in the post-season. How about his OPPOSING centers, of which he faced a HOF center in TWO-THIRD's of his post-season games? He held Russell to around .420 in the '62 ECF's (Russell shot 50% in his seven Finals games, and .458 overall in his 14 playoff games.) He also averaged 29 ppg on .517 shooting against Russell in the '64 Finals...and Russell averaged 11 ppg against Wilt. I don't have Russell's FG% in that series, but Russell shot .356 over the course of the entire playoffs, and half of his ten playoff games came against Wilt.

And, how about this...in Russell's '65 Finals, and against the Lakers, he averaged 18 ppg on a Finals record of .702 FG%. BUT, against Wilt in the '65 ECF's, he averaged 15 ppg on .475 shooting (which was probably his highest FG% series ever against Wilt...while Wilt averaged a 30-31 series against Russell.) AND, Russell led Boston in scoring in the '66 Finals, at 23.6 ppg. Against Wilt in the previous ECF's? 14 ppg (while Wilt averaged a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 series against Russell.)

In the '67 ECF's, Wilt held Russell, who had shot .454 during the regular season, to .358 shooting in the ECF's (while Chamberlain shot .556 against Russell.) And in the '67 Finals, Wilt outshot Thurmond, .560 to .343.

In the '67-68 playoffs, Wilt held 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, who had shot .541 during the regular season, to .421 shooting.

In the 70-71 WCF's, and against Kareem, Wilt held Jabbar, who had shot .577 during the regular season, to .481 shooting.

And in the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem, who had shot .574 in the regular season, to .457 shooting (including .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games.)

And in the 72-73 WCF's, Wilt not only outrebounded Thurmond, per game, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg,...he outshot Nate, .550 to .392.


Shot-blocking? Wilt is generally regarded as the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. In fact, in his 71-72 season, at age 35, he was estimated at between 7-8 bpg, and in the WCF's against a prime Kareem, he blocked 15+ of Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hooks. In his prime, Wilt was estimated to have had SEASONS of 10+ bpg. AND, while the "official" NBA record for blocked shots in a game is listed 17 by Elmore Smith in the 73-74 season, Wilt had a RECORDED game of 23 blocks in a nationally televised game in the 68-69 season (and Harvey Pollack had one game of 25 blocks as well.)

Rebounding? Quite simply...Wilt was the greatest rebounder of all-time. He not only led the NBA in ELEVEN of his 14 seasons (and would have led it in his 69-70 season had he not been injured), he was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-seasons series, EIGHT of which were against Russell. And in downright BURIED his opposing centers in most of them (including a 32-23 rpg margin over Russell in the '67 ECF's.)

Assists? Wilt not only LED the NBA in assists in the 67-68 season, he came in THIRD in the 66-67 season (and he then averaged 9.2 apg in the post-season.) In fact, no other center has ever averaged more than 5.8 apg in a season...and Wilt had seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg (as well as 5.2 apg in his '66 season, when he also averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting, and with 24.6 rpg.)

So, in terms of all-around "skills", Wilt was by FAR, the most "skilled" center of all-time.

Not by far. Hakeem Olajuwon is very close with a respectable argument over him. That's a fact. Wilt can be argued as the most complete player of all time, which is definitely arguable. However, to ignore the likes of Hakeem who's got a respectable case for the most complete player ever is ridiculous.

[PTB Fan]

lol @ Bird being a better help/team defender than LeBron. Unbelievable. Just wow.

He was. Larry was one of the best at playing off-ball defense ever. Not on the Russell/Thurmond/Hakeem level but certainly better than 'Bron.

[Jacks3]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow. :roll:

[pauk]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow. :roll:

inb4 someone says im Jacks3 to :lol :cheers:

[millwad]

For anyone who says that Wilt Chamberlain was the most skilled center ever, the guy is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time and he was a bad shooter outside the key (no, he didn't have a great jumper:facepalm). And his postup game was raw and regarding his stats, stats doesn't tell anyone how much talent one player had, skillset does and Wilt clearly lacked in some parts of the game too much to be called the "most skilled center"..

The "most skilled center ever" ain't supposed to look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxDdnzpnU8

[jlauber]

Not by far. Hakeem Olajuwon is very close with a respectable argument over him. That's a fact. Wilt can be argued as the most complete player of all time, which is definitely arguable. However, to ignore the likes of Hakeem who's got a respectable case for the most complete player ever is ridiculous.

The ONLY area in which Hakeem holds ANY kind of an edge over Wilt, would be in FT shooting. And even then, Wilt MADE 600 MORE FTs in his career, and in FOUR LESS seasons. Wilt's IMPACT at the line was significantly greater, as well.

Wilt LED the league in scoring SEVEN straight seasons, and those that followed the NBA at the time would claim he could have led it another 3-4 more seasons. And not only did Wilt lead the NBA in scoring, he had seasons in which he was BLEW AWAY the next guy (winning scoring titles by +10.8 and +18.8 ppg.) How about Hakeem? ZERO scoring titles. In fact, Hakeem never even SNIFFED a scoring title.

Rebounding? True, Hakeem barely won two rebounding crowns in his 18 seasons, but think about this. He was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE by over FOUR rpg in one season. How about Wilt? ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in the 69-70 season, it would have easily been TWELVE.) How about this? Wilt CRUSHED Bill Russell in the 142 H2H's by FIVE per GAME.

FG%? Hakeem was fortunate enough to play in the defenseless 80's, when EVERYONE was shooting 50%...and yet, his career FG% was .512. Here again, give me the number of seasons, in his EIGHTEEN season career, in which he won a FG% title. I'll save you the trouble...not ONE single time. In fact, he was usually nowhere close to the leaders...year-after-year. How about Wilt? NINE FG% titles, which included the TWO greatest seasons ever (and LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers.) Chamberlain was routinely shooting 100 points over the league average, and had those two seasons in which he outshot the league average by margins of .244 and .271.

Passing? Hakeem was at a paltry 2.5 apg. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Wilt? He averaged 4.4 apg in his career, AND, he had NINE seasons in which he was ahead of Hakeem's BEST season. Of course, you won't find a center within MILES of Wilt's two BEST seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg.

We know that Hakeem won two rebounding titles. That was it. Now about this? Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND rebounding, in the same season, FIVE times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND FG%, in the same season, FOUR times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding AND FG%, in the same season, EIGHT times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding, FG%, AND assists, in the same season, one time. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%, in the same season, THREE times.

In fact, Wilt had a season in which he LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540 (in a league that shot .433), AND, he averaged 5.2 apg, as well. ALL FOUR of those numbers BLOW AWAY Hakeem's BEST single seasons in ANY of those categories. And, of course, Wilt had FAR greater single seasons in EACH of those categories.

And before some idiot claims that Wilt had no competition...Wilt set some 130 All-Time records against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Embry, Lovellette, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

[pauk]

For anyone who says that Wilt Chamberlain was the most skilled center ever, the guy is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time and he was a bad shooter outside the key (no, he didn't have a great jumper:facepalm). And his postup game was raw and regarding his stats, stats doesn't tell anyone how much talent one player had, skillset does and Wilt clearly lacked in some parts of the game too much to be called the "most skilled center"..

The "most skilled center ever" ain't supposed to look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxDdnzpnU8

talent-skill-domination all in all..... cant deny him.. he was absolutely insane... i dont care what era it was... i dont even know if i could average those numbers even if i was playing alone lol.....

[RRR3]

How is Kobe not on your list? :roll: He, like MJ, can do just about anything. Post game, outside game, midrange game, playmaker/handles, high bball IQ and plays D.

How the EFF is Shaq on that list. If he was 50 pounds lighter and 3-4 inches shorter he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.
:facepalm

[PTB Fan]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow. :roll:

Bird's help defense is very underrated here

[chazzy]

To me Lebron has more than affirmed to deserve that honor or at least hold water with Larry Bird in express of passing ability, The Catalyst & OldSchoolBBall. He has assuredly & gently been more of a variable & constructive passer than Larry Bird was and this comes from a old man who had time to contemplate most of their games live. I deliver this message with the full conscious awareness of probably being compared to Pauk yet again for not belittleling Lebron, so be it.
Funniest post. Pauk trying to use big vocab to hide the fact that it's him. Holy shit :oldlol:

[PTB Fan]

The ONLY area in which Hakeem holds ANY kind of an edge over Wilt, would be in FT shooting. And even then, Wilt MADE 600 MORE FTs in his career, and in FOUR LESS seasons. Wilt's IMPACT at the line was significantly greater, as well.

This doesn't make sense to me. Wilt wasn't better at the line than Hakeem it's very simple. Olajuwon was more reliable and could make over 70% of his attempts unlike Wilt who wasn't reliable.


Wilt LED the league in scoring SEVEN straight seasons, and those that followed the NBA at the time would claim he could have led it another 3-4 more seasons. And not only did Wilt lead the NBA in scoring, he had seasons in which he was BLEW AWAY the next guy (winning scoring titles by +10.8 and +18.8 ppg.) How about Hakeem? ZERO scoring titles. In fact, Hakeem never even SNIFFED a scoring title.

Wilt is the better scorer by a comfortable margin. However, Hakeem is one of the best scorers ever as well. He came up big in the playoffs and finals where he put arguably better numbers.

However, you're right. Wilt was a better scorer. Just wanted to point out something.


Rebounding? True, Hakeem barely won two rebounding crowns in his 18 seasons, but think about this. He was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE by over FOUR rpg in one season. How about Wilt? ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in the 69-70 season, it would have easily been TWELVE.) How about this? Wilt CRUSHED Bill Russell in the 142 H2H's by FIVE per GAME.

Once again, it's close. Hakeem was a very good rebounder himself, winning two rebound titles but also upping himself in the post season as well. The numbers he put would translate well in the 60's.

But Wilt once again has him though.


FG%? Hakeem was fortunate enough to play in the defenseless 80's, when EVERYONE was shooting 50%...and yet, his career FG% was .512. Here again, give me the number of seasons, in his EIGHTEEN season career, in which he won a FG% title. I'll save you the trouble...not ONE single time. In fact, he was usually nowhere close to the leaders...year-after-year. How about Wilt? NINE FG% titles, which included the TWO greatest seasons ever (and LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers.) Chamberlain was routinely shooting 100 points over the league average, and had those two seasons in which he outshot the league average by margins of .244 and .271.

Wilt was more efficient by a nice margin. No debate here. My only problem with Wilt is that he never used his power game enough, since he relied too much on finesse play earlier in his career.


Passing? Hakeem was at a paltry 2.5 apg. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Wilt? He averaged 4.4 apg in his career, AND, he had NINE seasons in which he was ahead of Hakeem's BEST season. Of course, you won't find a center within MILES of Wilt's two BEST seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg.

This is where i disagree. No doubt Wilt could pass, but the year he led the league in assists it was because he pursued an individual feat which would later hurt his team.

So, i'll roll instead with Hakeem.


We know that Hakeem won two rebounding titles. That was it. Now about this? Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND rebounding, in the same season, FIVE times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND FG%, in the same season, FOUR times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding AND FG%, in the same season, EIGHT times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding, FG%, AND assists, in the same season, one time. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%, in the same season, THREE times.

In fact, Wilt had a season in which he LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540 (in a league that shot .433), AND, he averaged 5.2 apg, as well. ALL FOUR of those numbers BLOW AWAY Hakeem's BEST single seasons in ANY of those categories. And, of course, Wilt had FAR greater single seasons in EACH of those categories.

While few at all could win many titles in multiple categories, i'm not arguing Hakeem based on numbers but rather arguably better defense, bigger versatility, better post up game, clutch and being more reliable at the line.


And before some idiot claims that Wilt had no competition...Wilt set some 130 All-Time records against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Embry, Lovellette, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

Wilt's competition was slightly better than Hakeem's.

[pegasus]

:facepalm

Your mom called. She wants her crack back.

[RRR3]

http://i.imgur.com/FYy0e.jpg
:facepalm

[trooper]

take a look at his productions on that end... and take a look at his highlights for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8&NR=1


Not going to get into the Bird vs. LeBron passing debate but that video sucks. Most of those passes are there because they just look fancy, not because of LeBron's 'omg legendary laser point vision'. I barely saw any passes showing LeBron with that great court vision, most were just passing out a double team, or passing after breaking the defense down ... woop tee doo.. (admittedly I only watched the first 2 minutes because it was that boring)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4 , much better video :cheers:

[Tha Catalyst]

Not going to get into the Bird vs. LeBron passing debate but that video sucks. Most of those passes are there because they just look fancy, not because of LeBron's 'omg legendary laser point vision'. I barely saw any passes showing LeBron with that great court vision, most were just passing out a double team, or passing after breaking the defense down ... woop tee doo.. (admittedly I only watched the first 2 minutes because it was that boring)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4 , much better video :cheers:
Thank you, Lebron's passing highlights were mostly from using his insane athleticism (not a skill necessarily) to break down a defense and find what was generally an open man. He sometimes added a bit of flair to the pass but i wasn't amazed. Some of Bird's passes must be seen to be believed, and it generally wasn't to a wide open player. You mentioned assist number to back up Lebron Pauk, while knowing full well Lebron handles the ball more than Bird and tends to pass late in the shot clock. Then you refute that Rondo and others are not better passers than Lebron and are only viewed so because of assist number. You are very contradictory in your arguments. I don't hate Lebron, he deserved both MVP's and is at worst a top 2-3 player in the league, but he has no place in a top 10 all-time skills thread. If he did have top 10 skills with that body and athleticism, he would be better than Jordan. I think even you at this point have accepted he isn't in MJ's league.

[jlauber]

This doesn't make sense to me. Wilt wasn't better at the line than Hakeem it's very simple. Olajuwon was more reliable and could make over 70% of his attempts unlike Wilt who wasn't reliable.




First of all, before I begin, you have been one of the few quality posters on this board, and I do respect your opinions.

Regarding FT shooting...

I have covered this before, but for those that may not have read my take, ...to be sure, Wilt was a poor FT shooter. BUT, having said that, his IMPACT at the line was far greater than even an average FT shooter. And Wilt currently ranks 14th, all-time, in FTs MADE. He MADE 600 MORE FTs than Hakeem...and in four seasons less. Thinks about this...Wilt MADE 2000 MORE FTs than Bird. And while Kareem ranks ahead of him in career FTs made, Chamberlain averaged 432 MADE per season in his 14 year career, while Kareem was at 335 per season in his 20 year career.

And Wilt and Shaq were the two greatest "and-one" scorers in NBA history. Many of their FTAs were real bonus shots. Not only that, but they piled up fouls on not only opposing centers, but opposing TEAMs. Opposing players were either replaced, or forced to play "matador" defenses.

Then there were the EXTRA FTAs that Wilt gave his teammates by getting them into the bonus much earlier. Chamberlain's TEAMs either led the league in FTAs, or were among the leaders, every season. His '67 Sixer team was MILES ahead of the rest of the league. You want a truly great example? Wilt's 68-69 Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. Then, he was injured early on in the 69-70 season, and missed 70 games. LA plummetted to 11th, out of 14 teams, in FTAs that season. HOWEVER, Wilt returned for the playoffs...and the Lakers attempted 200 more FTAs than the next best team in the post-season!



Wilt is the better scorer by a comfortable margin. However, Hakeem is one of the best scorers ever as well. He came up big in the playoffs and finals where he put arguably better numbers.

However, you're right. Wilt was a better scorer. Just wanted to point out something.

While Hakeem did raise his game in the post-season, it is a common MYTH that Wilt "declined" in his.

I am going to save myself some time here...


So, let's conveniently overlook these facts. That a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510 (in league's that averaged about .430 shooting) in his first six post-seasons (his first seven seasons) ...COMBINED! Or that in his first eight straight post-seasons (covering his first nine seasons), all he did was average 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg (yes, 4.8 apg) and on .518 shooting (in league's that averaged about .435 shooting)...COMBINED!

I tell you what...you find me ONE player, who EVER had even ONE post-season of 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and on .518 shooting. And yet, here was Wilt, who supposedly "declined" in his post-seasons, who AVERAGED that over the course of EIGHT straight post-seasons...COMBINED!

How about Wilt with entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg (on .543 shooting), 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg? Or how about Wilt with post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and a staggering seven game series of 38.6 ppg, on .559 shooting, and with 23.0 rpg.Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season series, just against Russell, of 30+ ppg...including a seven game series in the '65 ECF's in which he averaged 30 ppg AND 31 rpg? Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season games of 50+ points (which is second to MJ's eight...all-time...in the post-season?) And one of them was a 56-35 game five in a best-of-series, and the other was a 50-35 game (on 22-42 shooting) against Russell in a "must-win" game five of the '60 ECF's.

Oh, and BTW, Wilt had FOUR 40-30 games, just against Russell, in his post-season career, including a 46-34 game in a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's. AND, in the '70 Finals, and on ONE leg, and in a "must-win" game, he hung a 45 point, on 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game.

How about Wilt with TWO complete playoff series in which he AVERAGED a TRIPLE-DOUBLE? And in that post-season, all he did was average 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting.

Defense? Of course the "anti-Wilt" clan with bring up Wilt's "decline" in the post-season...but how about these facts? In the '62 Finals, Russell shot 50% against the Lakers. However, in the '62 ECF's, and against Wilt, he was at about .420 shooting. In the '64 Finals, Wilt averaged 29 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .517 against Russell. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 11 ppg and 25 rpg against Wilt. And while we don't have Russell's H2H FG% against Wilt, we do know that Russell shot .356 in his entire post-season...and half of those ten game came against Wilt.

In the '65 Finals, Russell hung an 18 ppg .702 FG% on the Lakers. However, in the previous round against Wilt...15 ppg on .451 shooting (while Wilt averaged a 30-31 series against Russell.) In the '66 Finals, Russell LED Boston in scoring with a 23.6 ppg average against the Lakers. BUT, against Wilt in the ECF's that season? 14 ppg (while Wilt hung a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 series on Russell.)

In the '67 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; outassisted Russell, per game, 10 apg to 6 apg; and outshot Russell in that series, .556 to .358 (and Russell had shot .454 during the regular season.) Then, in the Finals, and against Thurmond, Wilt outscored Nate, per game, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded Nate, per game, 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg; and outshot Nate by a mind-boggling, .560 to .343 margin. BTW, Wilt squared of against Thurmond in three playoff series, and he outrebounded Nate in all three, as well as outshot Nate in all three by margins of .500 to .398, .550 to .392, and .560 to .343.

In the '68 regular season, Walt Bellamy shot .541. Against Wilt in the playoffs? How about .421???

In the '71 regular season, Kareem averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting. Against a 34 year-old Wilt, who was a year removed from major surgery? 25 ppg on .481 shooting!

In the '72 regular season, Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting. In the WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to 33 ppg on .457 shooting, which included holding him to .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series. And, BTW, Wilt also blocked some 15+ "unblockable" sky-hooks in that series.






Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...


Once again, it's close. Hakeem was a very good rebounder himself, winning two rebound titles but also upping himself in the post season as well. The numbers he put would translate well in the 60's.

But Wilt once again has him though.



This is not even close. Wilt not only holds almost every single rebounding record, he absolutely CRUSHED his peers H2H. And, he ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season. Russell holds the post-season career rpg mark of 24.9 rpg (to Wilt's 24.5 rpg), BUT, Wilt outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of their EIGHT post-season series. Not only that, but when Russell retired after the '69 season, Wilt was at a career 26.3 rpg mark.

Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 playoff series. Included in those 29 series were eight against Russell, and in some of those, he just crushed Russell. He also outrebounded the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Thurmond, and Kareem...in EVERY H2H series...some by massive margins.



Wilt was more efficient by a nice margin. No debate here. My only problem with Wilt is that he never used his power game enough, since he relied too much on finesse play earlier in his career.


I'll reluctantly agree with you on this point. Still, given the fact that the NBA enacted SEVERAL "anti-Wilt" rules, I highly doubt that they would have allowed Wilt to physically overwhelm his peers.



This is where i disagree. No doubt Wilt could pass, but the year he led the league in assists it was because he pursued an individual feat which would later hurt his team.
So, i'll roll instead with Hakeem.



Another fallacy. The year Wilt led the NBA in assists, his Sixers RAN AWAY with the best record in the league (62-20.) The real reason they did not win in the post-season? They were DECIMATED by injuries. HOFer Billy Cunningham didn't even play in the Celtic series, and Philly STILL had a 3-1 series lead. THEN, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones BOTH suffered leg injuries in game five. On top of all of that...WILT, himself was nursing an assortment of leg and foot injuries...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru game seven. With all of that, the Sixers lost a game seven by four points.

BTW, Wilt finished THIRD in assists in the previous season, and in the process, he led his team to an overwhelming title.

Hakeem isn't even in the same galaxy in passing. Once again, Wilt had NINE seasons better than Hakeem's BEST season. And, even in the post-season, Chamberlain had entire post-seasons of 9.2 apg and 6.5 apg. There has never been ANY center who approached Wilt's best seasons.



While few at all could win many titles in multiple categories, i'm not arguing Hakeem based on numbers but rather arguably better defense, bigger versatility, better post up game, clutch and being more reliable at the line.


Wilt was a MUCH better defensive player than Hakeem. Check this out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

The fact was, Wilt was probably the second greatest defensive center (and player) in NBA history. Even in his LAST TWO seasons, at ages 35 and 36, he was voted first-team all-defense...over the likes of Cowens, Reed, Lanier, Hayes, Thurmond, and Kareem.

And read my copied area above...Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers to 100+ points under their regular season FG%'s.

And most research tends to credit Wilt with being the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. Psileas posted an interesting article a while back which claimed that Wilt averaged better than 7 bpg in his '71-72 season, (and over 7 bpg in that post-season), and around 6 bpg in his LAST season. Then, think about this... the NBA began officially tracking blocks the very bext season after Wilt retired. Kareem averaged 3.5 bpg in that 73-74 season, and Thurmond averaged 2.9 bpg. And stats maven Harvey Pollack claimed that a PRIME Wilt had SEASONS of 10 bpg. Wilt even RECORDED 23 blocks in one game in a nationally televised game in 1968. So I don't see how the NBA can recognize Elmore Smith's mark of 17 as the REAL record.



Wilt's competition was slightly better than Hakeem's.

I already gave you a list of the centers that Wilt faced, but how about this...

In Wilt's 160 post-season games, he faced a starting HOF center in 99 of them. In Hakeem's 145 post-season games, he faced a starting HOF center in 32 of them.

Hakeem faced Shaq in eight post-season games; Ewing in seven; Robinson in six; Parish in six; and an OLD Kareem in five.

Wilt faced Russell in 49 playoff games; Thurmond in 17; Reed in 11; a PRIME Kareem in 11; Bellamy in six; and Lucas in five.

I just don't see any real area where Hakeem has much of a case over Wilt.