The Jordan Fadeaway.

[jstern]

It was kind of embarrassing to watch how much trouble Kobe was having with his posting up for the fadeaway against the shorter Harden. He was smacking it of his hands and everything. Jordan was nearly flawless with his fadeaway, and seemed to have much better footwork.

In an interview Jordan said that it was a move that he developed and perfected because the double teams were coming so fast. And I'm not talking about just the regular fadeaway that every player has done since the beginning of the game, I'm talking about the Jordan fadeaway, with the footwork and fakes, which is much more advance, and that Kobe seems to be the only one who really tries to use.

Edit 03/07/2011

This video of Jordan showing how to do the fadeaway kind of talks about what about was refering to about Kobe making mistakes that I never saw Jordan do. Harden kept stripping the ball away from Kobe, and in the video one of the main things Jordan talks about is protecting the basketball, else it's going to get stripped. I'm sure Kobe knows that, but sometimes lack of focus can cause a person to make a mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLSQqhFQ6M

Here's Harden playing defense on Kobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8

Noticed that Kobe is doing exactly what Jordan says not to do.

Like I said, the person who's able to think out of the box and expand things, the creative type is always going to be better than a person who tries to copy them. It's a mind thing.

[NY-Knicks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx5bHo8Lz3E

[knightfall88]

Do you know how much more athletic the players that guard Kobe are or how much more athletic players are in general today?

[Walduś]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x30S7BGapg

[jstern]

Do you know how much more athletic the players that guard Kobe are or how much more athletic players are in general today?
Yeah sure. And I'm sure being limited how a player can defend a player one on one in this era also makes it harder on Kobe.

But let say what you say is true, shouldn't it be relative? If the nutrition is so much superior than the 90s then that would benefit Kobe. So since it benefits Kobe also shouldn't Kobe be able to easily get a fadeaway off of a shorter player who has been in the league for 1 and a half season?

Edit: Also remember, that your argument is the same argument that Kobe fanboys used in 2005, 2 years after Jordan retired as a 40 year old. I say 2005, because as the years passes the time becomes more distant, and the fact that they use that excuse that makes no sense becomes less dependable. But a fanboy saying it now is really the same as a fanboy saying it then, because it's the same ignorant logic, only that it becomes harder to show how ignorant it is as time passes by. And you're probably too young to know that Kobe came in the league in 96.

[az00m]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Uw5B--arA

3:01 mark waldus papa teaching baby boy

[jstern]

I have a pretty high ego, but in a good sense, confidence wise. I feel I’m exactly like Kobe in that sense, that even as a regular guy I feel that there’s nothing an NBA player can do that I can’t, had I gotten the same opportunities, genes, etc. I think I can match anyone, Kobe, Wade, etc, all except Jordan. He's just a different mental level than anyone. And it hit me once while trying to copy his fadeaway. That an imitator can never be greater than the creator, originator, to the person who had the creativity to develop something. Make something out nothing, able to think out of the box, and that’s Jordan. I just would not have been able to think outside of the box enough to develop a game that consisted of all those fadeaways he used to do. Jordan 2 I’m talking about, the one that came back from retirement. The older one.

[lefthook00]

OK, Harden did a good job on him. So what? It's pretty obvious that Kobe has mastered the mid-range fadeaway.

[Vragrant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x30S7BGapg

Since you seem to like old footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&NR=1

[Hulk Hogan]

It was kind of embarrassing to watch how much trouble Kobe was having with his posting up for the fadeaway against the shorter Harden. He was smacking it of his hands and everything. Jordan was nearly flawless with his fadeaway, and seemed to have much better footwork.

In an interview Jordan said that it was a move that he developed and perfected because the double teams were coming so fast. And I'm not talking about just the regular fadeaway that every player has done since the beginning of the game, I'm talking about the Jordan fadeaway, with the footwork and fakes, which is much more advance, and that Kobe seems to be the only one who really tries to use.

A fail troll is a failed troll.

First of all harden wasn't guarding Kobe... It was Thabo Sefolosha and his long ass hands. :facepalm

Harden only guarded him a few possessions.

Nice try troll. :applause:

[Crown&Coke]

people think of Jordan and they envision the Jumpman. When I think of Jordan, I think of that unstoppable fadeaway. didn't matter if a 6'10 guy was on him, he got it off, and when he got it off, he was pretty much money from anywhere in the midpost.

tied with the SkyHook as the most effective shot ever created (other than a dunk)

[jstern]

OK, Harden did a good job on him. So what? It's pretty obvious that Kobe has mastered the mid-range fadeaway.

What Jordan mastered was his reactions to the defender his reflexes, it's something that's hard to explain, unless you're familiar with Jordan's game. Like I was was watching a video earlier, Jordan goes up for the fadeaway, his opponent was able to get a great jump, yet Jordan was somehow able to stop himself, and then jump. The average person wouldn't have been able to notice just how much skills was involved there. The point is that Kobe was just making to many mistakes it wasn't Hayden's defense, and I don't remember Jordan ever making a mistake, except getting blocked by Starks once.

And as someone who is obsessed with copying move, I completely understand the flaw with Kobe. In a subtle way it becomes less about reflexes when doing it, and more about going over a pre planned move. Jordan with the fadeaway was more successful in pulling it off against great defense because with him it was more about reflex, while with Kobe, it's subtlety more forced and pre determine how he plans on doing it.

This is not a knock on Kobe, it's just a comparison and explanation of Jordan's fadeaway. If anything I'm applauding Kobe for being the type of person who thinks he can do anything anyone else can do. That's the number one thing I admire about Kobe. Not a coward.

[jstern]

A fail troll is a failed troll.

First of all harden wasn't guarding Kobe... It was Thabo Sefolosha and his long ass hands. :facepalm

Harden only guarded him a few possessions.

Nice try troll. :applause:
1st you knowingly post some fake clutch stats, and now you try to mislead. Did you watch the game? Did Kobe not try to do fadeaways like every single time Harden defended him?

[Nevaeh]

What Jordan mastered was his reactions to the defender his reflexes, it's something that's hard to explain, unless you're familiar with Jordan's game. Like I was was watching a video earlier, Jordan goes up for the fadeaway, his opponent was able to get a great jump, yet Jordan was somehow able to stop himself, and then jump. The average person wouldn't have been able to notice just how much skills was involved there. The point is that Kobe was just making to many mistakes it wasn't Hayden's defense, and I don't remember Jordan ever making a mistake, except getting blocked by Starks once.

And as someone who is obsessed with copying move, I completely understand the flaw with Kobe. In a subtle way it becomes less about reflexes when doing it, and more about going over a pre planned move. Jordan with the fadeaway was more successful in pulling it off against great defense because with him it was more about reflex, while with Kobe, it's subtlety more forced and pre determine how he plans on doing it.

This is not a knock on Kobe, it's just a comparison and explanation of Jordan's fadeaway. If anything I'm applauding Kobe for being the type of person who thinks he can do anything anyone else can do. That's the number one thing I admire about Kobe. Not a coward.

The difference is Kobe sometimes plays for "Style Points", where as MJ would go with the move that was most effective. His style just came naturally, like it does for certain people with great rhythm. You can't teach instinct, it's either there or it's not. And Jordan was a Master at clearing space for himself on His shots, even at 40 years old.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Do you know how much more athletic the players that guard Kobe are or how much more athletic players are in general today?

Approximately how much more? I would like to see you try to answer this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Do you know how much more athletic the players that guard Kobe are or how much more athletic players are in general today?

40 year old Jordan was raining fadeaways on prime Marion, RJeff, Kenyon Martin, and Kobe. Grab a clue.

[PullupJay]

Tracy Mcgrady had a better fade away than jordan and kobe nuff said

[STATUTORY]

40 year old Jordan was raining fadeaways on prime Marion, RJeff, Kenyon Martin, and Kobe. Grab a clue.

:facepalm
40 year old MJ scored 20ppg on 19 shots. He wasn't raining no nobody

[Fatal9]

40 year old Jordan was raining fadeaways on prime Marion, RJeff, Kenyon Martin, and Kobe. Grab a clue.
He was also one of the least efficient scorers in the league (47 TS%...what a damn joke). Impressive still what he did for his age, but lets be real for a moment here.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was also one of the least efficient scorers in the league (47 TS%...what a damn joke). Impressive still what he did for his age, but lets be real for a moment here.

25+ ppg on 43% FG (league average was 43.5% FG) at age 39 until he hurt his knee and sat out a month in 2002. 23+ ppg on 46+% FG in the final 30 games of the 2003 season after turning age 40 (league average was ~43% FG). I look at these two periods because they were the only times he wasn't injured; his play improved over the course of the 2003 season as he worked himself back into game shape.

His Tee-Ehs percentage was as low as it was because he wasn't getting to the line - you can bet that if 39/40 year old MJ played in the post-2005 NBA, he'd be getting more FT's like everyone else and his Tee-Ehs percentage would be in the 51-52% range. Still not great, but not abysmal either.

Regardless, he was indeed raining fadeaways on very athletic players at that age. FACT. The athleticism of defenders never had an effect on Jordan at any age. HIS OWN declining athleticism had an effect, but not the athleticism of any particular defender.

[Knoe Itawl]

He was also one of the least efficient scorers in the league (47 TS%...what a damn joke). Impressive still what he did for his age, but lets be real for a moment here.

At 40 on a bum knee, several seasons removed from NBA level competition he shouldn't have been able to do anywhere near that in such a "super league"

What a joke.

[Fatal9]

25+ ppg on 43% FG (league average was 43.5% FG) at age 39 until he hurt his knee and sat out a month in 2002. 23+ ppg on 46+% FG in the final 30 games of the 2003 season after turning age 40 (league average was ~43% FG). I look at these two periods because they were the only times he wasn't injured; his play improved over the course of the 2003 season as he worked himself back into game shape.

His Tee-Ehs percentage was as low as it was because he wasn't getting to the line - you can bet that if 39/40 year old MJ played in the post-2005 NBA, he'd be getting more FT's like everyone else and his Tee-Ehs percentage would be in the 51.5-53% range. Still not stellar, but not abysmal either.

43 FG% is terrible for a player who takes almost exclusively twos. 47-49 TS% is a joke no matter how you slice it. Right there among the least efficient 20+ ppg seasons of all time (since the 60s). Only Antoine Walker has had a less efficient scoring season in the last 35 years (minimum 41 games played).

He was raining them fadeaways though.

[Fatal9]

At 40 on a bum knee, several seasons removed from NBA level competition he shouldn't have been able to do anywhere near that in such a "super league"

What a joke.
Like I said impressive no doubt what he accomplished for his age (even if his mileage was more of a player around 37ish). But can't stand fanboys acting like he was some worldbeater out there.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Keep trolling, Fatal9. Jordan at age 35 was better than Kobe has been the last two seasons, at age 31/32, and possibly even better than Kobe was in 2009 at age 30. Deal with it.

[macpierce]

in your opinion of course!
the turn around fadeaway requires strength and great jumping ability, something kobe lacks today, michael is stronger body wise and more athletic at the age of 32

[macpierce]

wait a minute
this thread is called the jordan fadeaway but the usual suspects come in here to take a hot steamy shit on kobe, at least troll under stealth mode guys, youre making this way too easy.
:oldlol:

[STATUTORY]

wait a minute
this thread is called the jordan fadeaway but the usual suspects come in here to take a hot steamy shit on kobe, at least troll under stealth mode guys, youre making this way too easy.
:oldlol:

real talk the only thing keeping the memory of Jordan alive is hate for Kobe. If Kobe never played, no one would talk about MJ.

[Nevaeh]

real talk the only thing keeping the memory of Jordan alive is hate for Kobe. If Kobe never played, no one would talk about MJ.

No one would have to because there wouldn't be any Idiots around calling Kobe the Greatest of All Time.

[Hulk Hogan]

1st you knowingly post some fake clutch stats, and now you try to mislead. Did you watch the game? Did Kobe not try to do fadeaways like every single time Harden defended him?

Thabo Sefolosha, SG 2 blocks
James Harden, G 0 blocks

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310227025

It was sef disrupting his fadeaways no harden.

[Heilige]

Keep trolling, Fatal9. Jordan at age 35 was better than Kobe has been the last two seasons, at age 31/32, and possibly even better than Kobe was in 2009 at age 30. Deal with it.


Do you feel Jordan was way better at age 35 than Kobe at ages 30-32?


Here are Jordan's playoff averages from 1996-98 when the Bulls won three championships:

1996: 30.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, .459 FG%, .403 3FG%, .818 FT%
1997: 31.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, .456 FG%, .194 3FG%, .831 FT%
1998: 32.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 3.5 apg, .462 FG%, .302 3FG%, .812 FT%

Here are Bryant's playoff averages from 2008-10 when the Lakers made three straight trips to the Finals and won two championships:

2008: 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, .479 FG%, .302 3FG%, .809 FT%
2009: 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, .457 FG%, .349 3FG%, .883 FT%
2010: 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, .458 FG%, .374 3FG%, .842 FT%

[KenneBell]

Kobe's hardly been "struggling" with his fadeaway especially this year.

He's shooting 52.4% from 10-15 feet and 49% from 3-9 feet. Both of those areas are where he uses that move most.

Why does everyone overexaggerate on this forum? It's ridiculous.

[jstern]

Thabo Sefolosha, SG 2 blocks
James Harden, G 0 blocks

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310227025

It was sef disrupting his fadeaways no harden.

Now you like pick and choose stats, and choosing blocks as proof. Did you even watch the game? Hayden didn't block Kobe because he was smacking the ball out of his hands before Kobe could even put the shot up.

It was like :facepalm these fanboys compare him to Jordan.

[Heilige]

And as someone who is obsessed with copying move, I completely understand the flaw with Kobe. In a subtle way it becomes less about reflexes when doing it, and more about going over a pre planned move. Jordan with the fadeaway was more successful in pulling it off against great defense because with him it was more about reflex, while with Kobe, it's subtlety more forced and pre determine how he plans on doing it.


I don't understand what you mean by that. If you practice a move enough times over and over it becomes an ingrained habit and it is about reflex like you mentioned with Jordan. Why wouldn't it be the same for Kobe considering how hard he practices the move through tons of repetition?

[Showtime]

Thabo Sefolosha, SG 2 blocks
James Harden, G 0 blocks

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310227025

It was sef disrupting his fadeaways no harden.
Somebody didn't watch the game, or doesn't know the difference between a strip and a block.

[Knoe Itawl]

Like I said impressive no doubt what he accomplished for his age (even if his mileage was more of a player around 37ish). But can't stand fanboys acting like he was some worldbeater out there.

No one act like he was the best player in the league, but before he got injured he was one of only three players in the NBA averageing 25, 5 and 5. Guess who the other two were? Kobe and TMac. Further, he came back at 39/40 as the FRANCHISE PLAYER on the team, with all that entails. Especially considering the Wizards were a bottom feeding team and thus he was the center of attention for other teams' defenses. Imagine if he had come back to a team where he didn't have to do all that? Like say if he was, I dunno, on the Lakers playing with Shaq? Or on San Antonio? Or in Minny?

But the bottom line really is that all of the Kobe Klown nonsense about it being some super league from 2000 on is garbage. If it was, there is no way a 39, 40 year old with a bum knee should have even been able to do that. And if we make the logical assumption that a 24-33 year old Jordan would be MUCH better than that version, and given that the NBA changed the rules to make it EASIER for perimeter players, a prime Jordan playing today would be just as good or better. Unless you're an idiot Bryant fanboy troll of course.

[KenneBell]

I don't understand what you mean by that. If you practice a move enough times over and over it becomes an ingrained habit and it is about reflex like you mentioned with Jordan. Why wouldn't it be the same for Kobe considering how hard he practices the move through tons of repetition?
He doesn't know what he's talking about. By now that move is all muscle memory for Kobe. I've seen him do it in those summer league games when he was 17 and he's still using them now.

Let's not act like Kobe hasn't busted Harden and Selfelosha's ass before in the post and he'll probably do it again.

[IGOTGAME]

25+ ppg on 43% FG (league average was 43.5% FG) at age 39 until he hurt his knee and sat out a month in 2002. 23+ ppg on 46+% FG in the final 30 games of the 2003 season after turning age 40 (league average was ~43% FG). I look at these two periods because they were the only times he wasn't injured; his play improved over the course of the 2003 season as he worked himself back into game shape.

His Tee-Ehs percentage was as low as it was because he wasn't getting to the line - you can bet that if 39/40 year old MJ played in the post-2005 NBA, he'd be getting more FT's like everyone else and his Tee-Ehs percentage would be in the 51-52% range. Still not great, but not abysmal either.

Regardless, he was indeed raining fadeaways on very athletic players at that age. FACT. The athleticism of defenders never had an effect on Jordan at any age. HIS OWN declining athleticism had an effect, but not the athleticism of any particular defender.


I remember Jordan getting some of his fade-aways blocked...so the athleticism did effect him as he aged.

[ukplayer4]

Yeah sure. And I'm sure being limited how a player can defend a player one on one in this era also makes it harder on Kobe.

But let say what you say is true, shouldn't it be relative? If the nutrition is so much superior than the 90s then that would benefit Kobe. So since it benefits Kobe also shouldn't Kobe be able to easily get a fadeaway off of a shorter player who has been in the league for 1 and a half season?

Edit: Also remember, that your argument is the same argument that Kobe fanboys used in 2005, 2 years after Jordan retired as a 40 year old. I say 2005, because as the years passes the time becomes more distant, and the fact that they use that excuse that makes no sense becomes less dependable. But a fanboy saying it now is really the same as a fanboy saying it then, because it's the same ignorant logic, only that it becomes harder to show how ignorant it is as time passes by. And you're probably too young to know that Kobe came in the league in 96.

:applause:

[IGOTGAME]

Yeah sure. And I'm sure being limited how a player can defend a player one on one in this era also makes it harder on Kobe.

But let say what you say is true, shouldn't it be relative? If the nutrition is so much superior than the 90s then that would benefit Kobe. So since it benefits Kobe also shouldn't Kobe be able to easily get a fadeaway off of a shorter player who has been in the league for 1 and a half season?

Edit: Also remember, that your argument is the same argument that Kobe fanboys used in 2005, 2 years after Jordan retired as a 40 year old. I say 2005, because as the years passes the time becomes more distant, and the fact that they use that excuse that makes no sense becomes less dependable. But a fanboy saying it now is really the same as a fanboy saying it then, because it's the same ignorant logic, only that it becomes harder to show how ignorant it is as time passes by. And you're probably too young to know that Kobe came in the league in 96.

why are you comparing the athletism of Jordan to Kobe when they are incomparable?

[KenneBell]

Like I said, this argument is pretty flawed.

[jstern]

I don't understand what you mean by that. If you practice a move enough times over and over it becomes an ingrained habit and it is about reflex like you mentioned with Jordan. Why wouldn't it be the same for Kobe considering how hard he practices the move through tons of repetition?
How can you not understand what I said? Perhaps it's something you can't relate to, have you played much basketball?

We're not talking about being able to perform a move, but rather how the players reacts to the defense. There's dozens of different possibilities, and just knowing the footwork is not going to be enough. It's a lot more about reflexes, being able to react to the defense. The Jordan fadeaway came natural to Jordan, Jordan developed that style, that game, Kobe copied it, and while I consider him to be the best in the world at it right now, it's not = to Jordan's, because for Jordan it was more spontaneous, while with Kobe it's more preplanned.

Look at it this way, with Jordan he doesn't know which way he's going to do it, left or right, straight up, or fading way back until he does it, because to him is more spontaneous. But with Kobe, in a subtle way he has already predetermined which way he wants to go which would cause him to make more mistakes than if he just would have been able to react to the defense.

It's all much more complicated than can be explain, that's why I used the word subtle so much.

[Heilige]

How can you not understand what I said? Perhaps it's something you can't relate to, have you played much basketball?

We're not talking about being able to perform a move, but rather how the players reacts to the defense. There's dozens of different possibilities, and just knowing the footwork is not going to be enough. It's a lot more about reflexes, being able to react to the defense. The Jordan fadeaway came natural to Jordan, Jordan developed that style, that game, Kobe copied it, and while I consider him to be the best in the world at it right now, it's not = to Jordan's, because for Jordan it was more spontaneous, while with Kobe it's more preplanned.

Look at it this way, with Jordan he doesn't know which way he's going to do it, left or right, straight up, or fading way back until he does it, because to him is more spontaneous. But with Kobe, in a subtle way he has already predetermined which way he wants to go which would cause him to make more mistakes than if he just would have been able to react to the defense.

It's all much more complicated than can be explain, that's why I used the word subtle so much.


If you work on something hard enough it will become natural for someone. With the work Kobe put in the fadeaway became natural for him.

[Hulk Hogan]

Now you like pick and choose stats, and choosing blocks as proof. Did you even watch the game? Hayden didn't block Kobe because he was smacking the ball out of his hands before Kobe could even put the shot up.

It was like :facepalm these fanboys compare him to Jordan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=2m19s

So is that why Kobe just owned harden in the post with a fade-away there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=3m6s

and there?

[STATUTORY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=2m19s

So is that why Kobe just owned harden in the post with a fade-away there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=3m7s

and there?

they don't count. kobe's not spontaneous enough

:facepalm

[jstern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=2m19s

So is that why Kobe just owned harden in the post with a fade-away there?
It's like arguing with a 10 year old :facepalm again

Showing a clip of Kobe hitting a fadeaway against Harden, doesn't suddenly erase the fact that he struggled against him last Sunday.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Can you start adding Michael to the title so I know which Jordan you're talking about?

[STATUTORY]

It's like arguing with a 10 year old :facepalm again

Showing a clip of Kobe hitting a fadeaway against Harden, doesn't suddenly erase the fact that he struggled against him last Sunday.

you are the f@cking idiot. When did one "bad" game mean a guy's can't hit fadeway jumpers?

Did Jordan never have a game where his jumper wasn't on?

are you even f@cking for real wit this dumb sh!t.

[Hulk Hogan]

It's like arguing with a 10 year old :facepalm again

Showing a clip of Kobe hitting a fadeaway against Harden, doesn't suddenly erase the fact that he struggled against him last Sunday.

And that is my exact point... Your point that "*I was like :facepalm these fanboys compare him to Jordan." was based on one game and a few possessions.

GTFO! you owned yourself.

[Hulk Hogan]

you are the f@cking idiot. When did one "bad" game mean a guy's can't hit fadeway jumpers?

Did Jordan never have a game where his jumper wasn't on?

are you even f@cking for real wit this dumb sh!t.

Jordan fans are delusional and this is a perfect example of their disorder.

[Bandito]

Do you feel Jordan was way better at age 35 than Kobe at ages 30-32?


Here are Jordan's playoff averages from 1996-98 when the Bulls won three championships:

1996: 30.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, .459 FG%, .403 3FG%, .818 FT%
1997: 31.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, .456 FG%, .194 3FG%, .831 FT%
1998: 32.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 3.5 apg, .462 FG%, .302 3FG%, .812 FT%

Here are Bryant's playoff averages from 2008-10 when the Lakers made three straight trips to the Finals and won two championships:

2008: 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, .479 FG%, .302 3FG%, .809 FT%
2009: 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, .457 FG%, .349 3FG%, .883 FT%
2010: 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, .458 FG%, .374 3FG%, .842 FT%Now that I see that Kobe's averages isn't that bad when compared to MJ's? Why is everyone (Lebron stan) saying he sucks then?

[jstern]

you are the f@cking idiot. When did one "bad" game mean a guy's can't hit fadeway jumpers?

Did Jordan never have a game where his jumper wasn't on?

are you even f@cking for real wit this dumb sh!t.
Who's arguing about the shot not falling? I'm talking about Kobe having trouble pulling it off, making little mistakes. And no, I've never seen Jordan struggle pulling off his fadeaway on anyone, except getting blocked by Starks once. As far as misses, I couldn't care about the actual misses, I focus more on how moves were pulled off.

[MayCeltics]

If MJ never existed, would there be a Kobe Bryant?

counterfeit ≠ Original.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x30S7BGapg
Travel

[Hulk Hogan]

Who's arguing about the shot not falling? I'm talking about Kobe having trouble pulling it off, making little mistakes. And no, I've never seen Jordan struggle pulling off his fadeaway on anyone, except getting blocked by Starks once. As far as misses, I couldn't care about the actual misses, I focus more on how moves were pulled off.


LOL @ this dude. :roll:

Do you have every video of Jordan's fadeawy for his entire career to prove that?
So in Jordan's entire career, he was blocked once. :roll: :roll:

The delusions of Jordans stans are pretty impressive.:lol

Anyway.. Kobe didn't struggle to pull off his fade away against Harden.

I need you to prove it.. :pimp:
Post videos or pictures.

[jstern]

LOL @ this dude. :roll:

Do you have every video of Jordan's fadeawy for his entire career to prove that?
So in Jordan's entire career, he was blocked once. :roll: :roll:

The delusions of Jordans stans are pretty impressive.:lol

Anyway.. Kobe didn't struggle to pull off his fade away against Harden.

I need you to prove it.. :pimp:
Post videos or pictures.
Come, you can't be this slow. A person could watch 2 players for many years and get a really good sense of them. Similar to how statistics are gather. During a Presidential election the exit polls don't ask every single person who voted who they voted for, they ask a percentage, and remarkably they have always, every time have been accurate. Except for President Bush, which showed he lost many key States that he somehow won, to win the Presidency. I wonder why.

But yeah, arguing with you is like arguing with a little kid, because you're not concerned about actually getting to the bottom of something, you're just concerned about making Kobe look better than he is.

[Knoe Itawl]

Come, you can't be this slow. A person could watch 2 players for many years and get a really good sense of them. Similar to how statistics are gather. During a Presidential election the exit polls don't ask every single person who voted who they voted for, they ask a percentage, and remarkably they have always, every time have been accurate. Except for President Bush, which showed he lost many key States that he somehow won, to win the Presidency. I wonder why.

But yeah, arguing with you is like arguing with a little kid, because you're not concerned about actually getting to the bottom of something, you're just concerned about making Kobe look better than he is.

Bingo. And this is why I can't stand Kobe Fanatics. Not only are they obsessive, obnoxious, ignorant and moronic but they PURPOSELY lie, obfuscate, mislead and engage in intentionally intellectually dishonest debate for the sole purpose of propping up a professional athlete. And I've never seen it on that level for any other player. What is it about Kobe that he attracts such people? I have to admit that from a purely psychological level it's fascinating. What makes people act this way? It's so foreign to anything I can understand that it makes you wonder why. It's like Manson or someone. You can't comprehend a human being behaving in that fashion. So it is with Kobe cultists.

[KenneBell]

Preplanned? Seriously?

Your argument couldn't get any more ridiculous. :roll:

[Fatal9]

Bingo. And this is why I can't stand Kobe Fanatics. Not only are they obsessive, obnoxious, ignorant and moronic but they PURPOSELY lie, obfuscate, mislead and engage in intentionally intellectually dishonest debate for the sole purpose of propping up a professional athlete. And I've never seen it on that level for any other player. What is it about Kobe that he attracts such people? I have to admit that from a purely psychological level it's fascinating. What makes people act this way? It's so foreign to anything I can understand that it makes you wonder why. It's like Manson or someone. You can't comprehend a human being behaving in that fashion. So it is with Kobe cultists.
blah blah blah b!tch b!tch blah blah kobe raped my sister blah blah


http://omgif.gosedesign.net/wp-content/deal-with-it.gif

[Hulk Hogan]

Come, you can't be this slow. A person could watch 2 players for many years and get a really good sense of them. Similar to how statistics are gather. During a Presidential election the exit polls don't ask every single person who voted who they voted for, they ask a percentage, and remarkably they have always, every time have been accurate. Except for President Bush, which showed he lost many key States that he somehow won, to win the Presidency. I wonder why.

But yeah, arguing with you is like arguing with a little kid, because you're not concerned about actually getting to the bottom of something, you're just concerned about making Kobe look better than he is.

Actually I'm giving you an oppurtunity to prove your point.
Really I don't even get what this thread is all about. What are you trying to prove exactly?
You claim this is the reason Kobe's fadeaway is not like Jordan.
But its just one game, plus what you claim that happened, did not.

Infact Harden only had one steal from Kobe. That was when Kobe tried to do a turn around and get to the center to a easy close shot.

Last of all Harden only knocked it out 2 times out of the WHOLE game.
Like I said, you are basing your premise out of 2 possessions and claiming you never saw Jordan get the ball knocked out of his hand.

Come on, be for real.

Second of all, Kobe and Jordan are not the same.
Jordan is taller.
Jordan is bigger.
Jordan is more athletic.
Jordan has bigger hands (which is crucial, cause he was able to palm the ball with ease).

[magnax1]

blah blah blah b!tch b!tch blah blah kobe raped my sister blah blah


http://omgif.gosedesign.net/wp-content/deal-with-it.gif
Definitely best post in this thread. Wish I could +1 you.

[32MJ32]

This is an outstanding thread and I'd like to read more of the original poster's thoughts on the NBA

[jstern]

Bingo. And this is why I can't stand Kobe Fanatics. Not only are they obsessive, obnoxious, ignorant and moronic but they PURPOSELY lie, obfuscate, mislead and engage in intentionally intellectually dishonest debate for the sole purpose of propping up a professional athlete. And I've never seen it on that level for any other player. What is it about Kobe that he attracts such people? I have to admit that from a purely psychological level it's fascinating. What makes people act this way? It's so foreign to anything I can understand that it makes you wonder why. It's like Manson or someone. You can't comprehend a human being behaving in that fashion. So it is with Kobe cultists.
It is facinating.

There are a lot, lots of reasons, but the main reason why I think it's more with Kobe than any other athlete in sports is because he over achieves. I know that's going to piss them off me saying that he's over achieves, but Kobe has had a very blessed career where everything just seems to fall into place. So when fans with a certain mentality sees that Kobe has won 5 championships, yet people don't put him up there with other players, they get defensive about it. But it's not just that. He has a very aesthetically pleasing game. Give me a game where Kobe shoots 11 for 33 against Durant scoring 15 ford 28, and the average person just by watching the game is going to think Kobe out played Durant. To a younger person, the style of a player also holds a lot of weight. There was a thread here of a new NBA fan who couldn't understand why Lebron was so good. He knew Lebron is a super star, but it just couldn't click in his head why, and it's all because compared to players like Kobe, Lebron's game isn't as pretty.

[Knoe Itawl]

It is facinating.

There are a lot, lots of reasons, but the main reason why I think it's more with Kobe than any other athlete in sports is because he over achieves. I know that's going to piss them off me saying that he's over achieves, but Kobe has had a very blessed career where everything just seems to fall into place. So when fans with a certain mentality sees that Kobe has won 5 championships, yet people don't put him up there with other players, they get defensive about it. But it's not just that. He has a very aesthetically pleasing game. Give me a game where Kobe shoots 11 for 33 against Durant scoring 15 ford 28, and the average person just by watching the game is going to think Kobe out played Durant. To a younger person, the style of a player also holds a lot of weight. There was a thread here of a new NBA fan who couldn't understand why Lebron was so good. He knew Lebron is a super star, but it just couldn't click in his head why, and it's all because compared to players like Kobe, Lebron's game isn't as pretty.

I also think that a lot of them want "their Jordan". Like, Jordan's career was before their time and so since Kobe is aesthetically similar to Mike, has a bunch of championships and has a lot of high scoring games that this becomes enough for them for him be to their own version. Since reality doesn't endorse that, they have to CREATE their own reality for him to be there. And on the surface he's done enough things on the checklist that they can claw and scratch and kick to try to make it work. It doesn't, of course, but as long as they can kick up enough dust they think that this will be enough in order to "wish" it to be so. Of course, they constantly encounter people who strongly disagree with their delusional state, which makes them more delusional and it continues from there like an "us against them" thing. Also, Kobe's personality is one that may draw in people who are anti social, loner type weirdos (obviously not all of his fans are, but his personality type draws those kinds in and they become the most obsessive about him).

Really would be interesting to have a shrink diagnose the more hardcore ones.

[32MJ32]

I think Kobe would enjoy being called an "overachiever."

I would. It's not an insult

[Round Mound]

Do you feel Jordan was way better at age 35 than Kobe at ages 30-32?


Here are Jordan's playoff averages from 1996-98 when the Bulls won three championships:

1996: 30.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, .459 FG%, .403 3FG%, .818 FT%
1997: 31.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, .456 FG%, .194 3FG%, .831 FT%
1998: 32.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 3.5 apg, .462 FG%, .302 3FG%, .812 FT%

Here are Bryant's playoff averages from 2008-10 when the Lakers made three straight trips to the Finals and won two championships:

2008: 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, .479 FG%, .302 3FG%, .809 FT%
2009: 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, .457 FG%, .349 3FG%, .883 FT%
2010: 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, .458 FG%, .374 3FG%, .842 FT%

Include SPG, BPG and DRT also :pimp: ...

[westsideozzie]

Let me be clear.. Kobe Bryant is no Michael Jordan. Jordan as Bull was a career 50% fg shooter as a shooting guard. All this talk about Jordan did not play against superior athletes is hilarious. Jordan was 39 years old getting 50 points.. Most of that because of his ball fakes and his fadeaway jumper.

[jstern]

This is an outstanding thread and I'd like to read more of the original poster's thoughts on the NBA
I'm too tired now, but I think the NBA is great right now. I love the players, I love the skills. Personally I just wish it was a bit more physical. The other day I was wondering why I like basketball so much, and to me in a way, it's like a form of fighting. You're trying to score, and your opponent is trying to prevent you from scoring, and when I play against someone where I have to battle it makes scoring so, get more pumped, like fighting, as apposed to someone who backs off and you just take a simple jumper from a few feet away. So when I see a player going by another player like it's nothing, it kind of sucks, because I want to see more of a battle. Those rules also makes the game faster, which is good, but I rather see a battle.

Which brings me to football. I don't care about the NFL that much, I care about basketball, yet I can watch any NFL game that's on TV, but I can't say the same about the NBA. I completely understand why the NFL blows everything out of the water in terms of rating. To the average fan, basketball can get pretty repetitive, scoring back and forth for all those quarter until any real suspend can happen, but with football, every down is a battle. It could be the 1st quarter, and for the common person just seeing if a team can pull off the 1st down gives them an extra reason to watch a minute more, and that's throughout the whole game. It's a constant battle, and I feel basketball lacks that, and won't be able to catch up to the NFL because of it.

Also, Kobe himself has called himself an overachiever. I believe it was after Jordan called Kobe one of the top 10 best guards of all time, they interview Kobe about it and he said that he would like to be remembered as an overachiever.

[Jacks3]

Too bad Kobe is a better shooter than Jordan anyway.

[Nevaeh]

I also think that a lot of them want "their Jordan". Like, Jordan's career was before their time and so since Kobe is aesthetically similar to Mike, has a bunch of championships and has a lot of high scoring games that this becomes enough for them for him be to their own version. Since reality doesn't endorse that, they have to CREATE their own reality for him to be there. And on the surface he's done enough things on the checklist that they can claw and scratch and kick to try to make it work. It doesn't, of course, but as long as they can kick up enough dust they think that this will be enough in order to "wish" it to be so. Of course, they constantly encounter people who strongly disagree with their delusional state, which makes them more delusional and it continues from there like an "us against them" thing. Also, Kobe's personality is one that may draw in people who are anti social, loner type weirdos (obviously not all of his fans are, but his personality type draws those kinds in and they become the most obsessive about him).

Really would be interesting to have a shrink diagnose the more hardcore ones.

I think you pretty much hit it on the head. Add to it the fact that we live in an instant gratification culture now, filled with an entire generation who wanna be "somebodies" thanks to the net, and you have a generation who's honestly never had a reality check as it pertains to certain perceptions that they perceive as the truth.

That's why I love the General NBA forum, because its the "checks and balances" Hub that prevents the "Delusional" from being able to just spew whatever as "Fact" and get away with it. It's a cold hard reality check to find out that not everyone loves your favorite player. I say it's a good preparation for the real world, where everything's not always gonna go your way, no matter how bad you may want it to.

[macpierce]

wait a minute
this thread is called the jordan fadeaway but the usual suspects come in here to take a hot steamy shit on kobe, at least troll under stealth mode guys, youre making this way too easy.
:oldlol:
keep it going

[Jacks3]

Kobe's fade-away> Mike's.

[97 bulls]

Since you seem to like old footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&NR=1
Jordan got in his ass that game. But he was extremely young. Not that I think it would be much different if kobe was at any age.

[kaiiu]

MJ= GOAT fadeaway shooter:bowdown:

[LA_Showtime]

Wow. I can't believe some of you guys think of yourselves as the rational folk on this board. Absolutely amazing. Keep in mind that you're arguing with people who are most likely between the ages of 12 and 25, while you're a bunch of adults who are acting like children. Perspective.

Kobe has always had trouble with long, athletic defenders. He also fumbles the ball way more than he used to, which you can thank his 50-year-old fingers for. He doesn't match Jordan in the post at all. Are you happy? :oldlol:

[indiefan24]

I also think that a lot of them want "their Jordan". Like, Jordan's career was before their time and so since Kobe is aesthetically similar to Mike, has a bunch of championships and has a lot of high scoring games that this becomes enough for them for him be to their own version. Since reality doesn't endorse that, they have to CREATE their own reality for him to be there. And on the surface he's done enough things on the checklist that they can claw and scratch and kick to try to make it work. It doesn't, of course, but as long as they can kick up enough dust they think that this will be enough in order to "wish" it to be so. Of course, they constantly encounter people who strongly disagree with their delusional state, which makes them more delusional and it continues from there like an "us against them" thing. Also, Kobe's personality is one that may draw in people who are anti social, loner type weirdos (obviously not all of his fans are, but his personality type draws those kinds in and they become the most obsessive about him).

Really would be interesting to have a shrink diagnose the more hardcore ones.

you're obsessed

[sekachu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=2m19s

So is that why Kobe just owned harden in the post with a fade-away there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWo8QRUVWI#t=3m6s

and there?


The different I find between MJ and kobe 's fadeaway is that kobe 's fake isn't as good as MJ, they have the same footwork but kobe isn't do it as smooth as MJ too.

[Knoe Itawl]

you're obsessed

I'm right. Which is why people like yourself attack and obfuscate and deflect.

[macpierce]

so kobe's turn around fadeaway isnt as good as MJs??? really, I thought we all knew that..............on the other hand however, kobes turn around fadeaway is the best since jordan has retired for a shooting guard so............complement??? :lol

[NBASTATMAN]

It was kind of embarrassing to watch how much trouble Kobe was having with his posting up for the fadeaway against the shorter Harden. He was smacking it of his hands and everything. Jordan was nearly flawless with his fadeaway, and seemed to have much better footwork.

In an interview Jordan said that it was a move that he developed and perfected because the double teams were coming so fast. And I'm not talking about just the regular fadeaway that every player has done since the beginning of the game, I'm talking about the Jordan fadeaway, with the footwork and fakes, which is much more advance, and that Kobe seems to be the only one who really tries to use.


People don't understand the intracacy of MJ's game.. The way he held players back with his body is and art in itself.. Look at Lebron he doesn't have a clue on how to do this.. And people think that MJ wouldn't dominate in this league..

[hitmanyr2k]

Jordan got in his ass that game. But he was extremely young. Not that I think it would be much different if kobe was at any age.


Probably not, this is 39 year old Jordan against Kobe in his athletic prime playing his hardest on defense. Jordan made it look effortless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4T8_U4iHt4

[andgar923]

What made MJ's fadeaway special was his 'separation.'

While Kobe is the closest, he still doesn't get the separation that MJ did. He doesn't have the strength or the hands to pull it off.

For those making excuses saying MJ did it against shorter, less athletic players, have ya'll forgotten MJ during the Wizards years?

idiots.

Mj's fadeaway is the best of all time period.

[andgar923]

so kobe's turn around fadeaway isnt as good as MJs??? really, I thought we all knew that..............on the other hand however, kobes turn around fadeaway is the best since jordan has retired for a shooting guard so............complement??? :lol

I agree.

Kobe's is the closest to MJ's... by far.

Even Tmac in his prime wasn't as consistent. And his was effective mostly due to his height, he didn't have the same footwork or balance that kobe does, and def not the same as MJ's.

[hkfosho]

kobe's overrated, and jordan is better. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Kiarip]

I also think that a lot of them want "their Jordan". Like, Jordan's career was before their time and so since Kobe is aesthetically similar to Mike, has a bunch of championships and has a lot of high scoring games that this becomes enough for them for him be to their own version. Since reality doesn't endorse that, they have to CREATE their own reality for him to be there. And on the surface he's done enough things on the checklist that they can claw and scratch and kick to try to make it work. It doesn't, of course, but as long as they can kick up enough dust they think that this will be enough in order to "wish" it to be so. Of course, they constantly encounter people who strongly disagree with their delusional state, which makes them more delusional and it continues from there like an "us against them" thing. Also, Kobe's personality is one that may draw in people who are anti social, loner type weirdos (obviously not all of his fans are, but his personality type draws those kinds in and they become the most obsessive about him).

Really would be interesting to have a shrink diagnose the more hardcore ones.

yeah your theory is way off. I've never seen Michael Jordan play when I started watching NBA and I became a Kobe Bryant fan very fast. It's not because I need someone to be "my Jordan."

Kobe's game just looks very nice, because he pays attention to small details and has practiced enough to polish every facet of the game that I and pretty much anyone else who's not spending 5+ hours in the gym practicing their bball technique can see. I'm sure when he watches his own play he can find way more mistakes than the casual basketball fans/players, but that's because through his practice/experience he is able to recognize the small things very easily, and someone who watches/plays casually may not recognize all those details but the combination of all of them make his play look very "correct" looking.

A lot of high level players of NBA are able to cover up the deficiencies/awkwardness of their technique through sheer athleticism/speed/hustle, and they are just as or at this point in time even more effective than Kobe, but their game still doesn't look as nice.


Anyways as for his turn around jumper, I feel like he does get a bit sloppy while handling the ball with his back to the basket, and because of that he can't get as good shots as Jordan could, and he sometimes resorts to that somewhat awkward double or triple pump fake which he uses to confuse the defender while he sets up his back foot in good position to square to the basket when he takes the jump shot.

[Jacks3]

Kobe's is better because he doesn't rely on his athleticism like Jordan. His is a "true fade" while MJ's was a case of him getting so much elevation on his jumper that he didn't even need to fade. Even at 35 he got more elevation than Bryant. He just did it to look pretty.

[andgar923]

Kobe's is better because he doesn't rely on his athleticism like Jordan. His is a "true fade" while MJ's was a case of him getting so much elevation on his jumper that he didn't even need to fade. Even at 35 he got more elevation than Bryant. He just did it to look pretty.

You obviously didn't watch MJ play with the Wizards.

Now.... MJ's athleticism does help, but it isn't better solely because of his athleticism. If that was the case, then Bron should have a killer fadeaway but he doesn't. MJ payed attention to details just as much as Kobe, don't fool yourself, and he was also better at executing them.

MJ is also smarter, and reacts quicker which also gives him an advantage. So it isn't just about the technical aspects.

[macpierce]

the key to MJs fadeaway was the lift on his legs but also his strength and leverage he used to create separation, he perfected it in other words

[crisoner]

KnoeBe on here discussing guess who...........

Thought this was a Jordan thread. :rolleyes:

[crisoner]

I also think that a lot of them want "their Jordan". Like, Jordan's career was before their time and so since Kobe is aesthetically similar to Mike, has a bunch of championships and has a lot of high scoring games that this becomes enough for them for him be to their own version. Since reality doesn't endorse that, they have to CREATE their own reality for him to be there. And on the surface he's done enough things on the checklist that they can claw and scratch and kick to try to make it work. It doesn't, of course, but as long as they can kick up enough dust they think that this will be enough in order to "wish" it to be so. Of course, they constantly encounter people who strongly disagree with their delusional state, which makes them more delusional and it continues from there like an "us against them" thing. Also, Kobe's personality is one that may draw in people who are anti social, loner type weirdos (obviously not all of his fans are, but his personality type draws those kinds in and they become the most obsessive about him).

Really would be interesting to have a shrink diagnose the more hardcore ones.

Hmmm so somebody who obsessively talks about a player they hate all the time is normal? Right KnoBe...Right.

[crisoner]

yeah your theory is way off. I've never seen Michael Jordan play when I started watching NBA and I became a Kobe Bryant fan very fast. It's not because I need someone to be "my Jordan."

Kobe's game just looks very nice, because he pays attention to small details and has practiced enough to polish every facet of the game that I and pretty much anyone else who's not spending 5+ hours in the gym practicing their bball technique can see. I'm sure when he watches his own play he can find way more mistakes than the casual basketball fans/players, but that's because through his practice/experience he is able to recognize the small things very easily, and someone who watches/plays casually may not recognize all those details but the combination of all of them make his play look very "correct" looking.

A lot of high level players of NBA are able to cover up the deficiencies/awkwardness of their technique through sheer athleticism/speed/hustle, and they are just as or at this point in time even more effective than Kobe, but their game still doesn't look as nice.


Anyways as for his turn around jumper, I feel like he does get a bit sloppy while handling the ball with his back to the basket, and because of that he can't get as good shots as Jordan could, and he sometimes resorts to that somewhat awkward double or triple pump fake which he uses to confuse the defender while he sets up his back foot in good position to square to the basket when he takes the jump shot.


Well put...but honestly bro don't respond to that guy. He is a long time troll on this board with an agenda.

[Jacks3]

You obviously didn't watch MJ play with the Wizards.

Now.... MJ's athleticism does help, but it isn't better solely because of his athleticism. If that was the case, then Bron should have a killer fadeaway but he doesn't. MJ payed attention to details just as much as Kobe, don't fool yourself, and he was also better at executing them.

MJ is also smarter, and reacts quicker which also gives him an advantage. So it isn't just about the technical aspects.
Bron doesn't have a killer fade-away because he doesn't need to it. Nobody is blocking his shot. And no, MJ didn't pay to detail as much as Bryant. Bryant does little things that Jordan never did: the little hesitations with his dribble, the reverse pivots, the "shoulder fake" where he gets guys in the air simply by moving his shoulders as if getting ready to go into a shooting motion, etc.

There's a reason Bryant is one of only two players in history to put up 25 PPG in their 15 season. :pimp:

[No_Look604]

Hmmmm those saying jordan's defenders were weak are pure GARBAGE!

Jordan at 40 was making Pierce his ***** in the post...and Pierce ain't no tweener.

Like another member posted...when I think of MJ I think of his fadeaway and not him soaring through the air. Probably because I was fairly young & didn't start watching all his games 'til after his first 3-peat.

How old was MJ when the bulls started rocking pin-stripes? Around the time the 11's came out? The man could still get up there if my memory serves me correctly. But that fadeaway...boy, it leaves me speechless.

Watching them milk it 10 times in a row vs the knicks was a sight to see.

Probably the only man that could justify shooting that much.

[andgar923]

Bron doesn't have a killer fade-away because he doesn't need to it. Nobody is blocking his shot. And no, MJ didn't pay to detail as much as Bryant. Bryant does little things that Jordan never did: the little hesitations with his dribble, the reverse pivots, the "shoulder fake" where he gets guys in the air simply by moving his shoulders as if getting ready to go into a shooting motion, etc.

There's a reason Bryant is one of only two players in history to put up 25 PPG in their 15 season. :pimp:

This is sarcasm right?

[Jacks3]

Nope. Bryant is easily the most technically skilled player in history.

Unfortunately, he's never had the A class athleticism of a Jordan or LeBron, so he wasn't able to capitalize on it in quite the the same way.

Kobe=G.O.A.T overachiever

[andgar923]

Nope. Bryant is easily the most technically skilled player in history.

Unfortunately, he's never had the A class athleticism of a Jordan or LeBron, so he wasn't able to capitalize on it in quite the the same way.

Kobe=G.O.A.T overachiever

Must be smoking some good shit.

[Jacks3]

Yup.

[pete's montreux]

Do you know how much more athletic the players that guard Kobe are or how much more athletic players are in general today?

More athletic in less than 10 years? Ah...no.

[Paulaner23]

It could be a good topic, but some of you guys just hate too much
Lebron, Air, Kobe... why do you need to put them ahead the others in every situation?
We can

[Kevin_Gamble]

Bron doesn't have a killer fade-away because he doesn't need to it. Nobody is blocking his shot. And no, MJ didn't pay to detail as much as Bryant. Bryant does little things that Jordan never did: the little hesitations with his dribble, the reverse pivots, the "shoulder fake" where he gets guys in the air simply by moving his shoulders as if getting ready to go into a shooting motion, etc.

There's a reason Bryant is one of only two players in history to put up 25 PPG in their 15 season. :pimp:

Jordan never did hesitation, reverse pivot, or shoulder fake?

Maybe you just think this because either you never saw Jordan play or Jordan is so smooth and efficient that it just looks like he's taking free throws no matter what he does.

[jstern]

Bump for a 100.

Didn't expect this thread to get so many replies, might as well go for 100 posts.

[Calabis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x30S7BGapg

LMAO, you posted a video, from when Jordan was giving him tips during the game about how to do the fadeaway, Kobe was asking him about it.....Also Jordan 30+ ppg at 34 years of age against those Lakers....:roll:

[Calabis]

:facepalm
40 year old MJ scored 20ppg on 19 shots. He wasn't raining no nobody

Uhh check again at the names listed and I'm sure he dropped 40+ on a couple of those guys and like 25 in 30 minutes Kobe and Fox.....sounds like he was raining on someone

[Calabis]

43 FG% is terrible for a player who takes almost exclusively twos. 47-49 TS% is a joke no matter how you slice it. Right there among the least efficient 20+ ppg seasons of all time (since the 60s). Only Antoine Walker has had a less efficient scoring season in the last 35 years (minimum 41 games played).

He was raining them fadeaways though.

But a career 41% shooter in the NBA Finals is somehow great right??? Because I'm sure those numbers are probably on par with the ISH Messiah finals numbers

[Calabis]

Actually I'm giving you an oppurtunity to prove your point.
Really I don't even get what this thread is all about. What are you trying to prove exactly?
You claim this is the reason Kobe's fadeaway is not like Jordan.
But its just one game, plus what you claim that happened, did not.

Infact Harden only had one steal from Kobe. That was when Kobe tried to do a turn around and get to the center to a easy close shot.

Last of all Harden only knocked it out 2 times out of the WHOLE game.
Like I said, you are basing your premise out of 2 possessions and claiming you never saw Jordan get the ball knocked out of his hand.

Come on, be for real.

Second of all, Kobe and Jordan are not the same.
Jordan is taller.Jordan is bigger.
Jordan is more athletic.
Jordan has bigger hands (which is crucial, cause he was able to palm the ball with ease).

I think Kobe has a inch on him

http://www.kicksguide.com/articles/comparisons/jordan-vs-kobe/jordanvskobe.jpg

[Harion]

what move has Kobe invented? aside from the trade me or i'll cry a river move?

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw

...and no, Jordan did not invent the fadeaway you delusional tools.

[STATUTORY]

what move has Kobe invented? aside from the trade me or i'll cry a river move?

:facepalm what a stan. you actually think Jordan's invented moves?

[Batz]

what move has Kobe invented? aside from the trade me or i'll cry a river move?
Your 'life'.

[Jacks3]

Jordan never did hesitation, reverse pivot, or shoulder fake?


No.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No.

Please provide examples of what a "hesitation" and "shoulder fake" is so people know what you're talking about.

[Jacks3]

How can you not know what a hesitation move and shoulder fakes are? lol

[KB2009Champ]

what is the point of this thread exactly?

to say that jordan never made a mistake but kobe did.

ok op,......... want a cookie?

[olddangerfield]

A good thread if not for some of the biases possibly apparent in the OP.

Both players had amazing fadeaways that ultimately helped their teams win multiple championships and is time-tested in the clutch. The reason for both of their efficiencies is that you can get a fadeaway up at any point and on any defender. Guys as tall as 6'6 are nearly impossible to block once they've raised up but once you add a falling back element to that jumping aspect such as a twisting fadeaway jumper that type of weapon becomes essentially impossible to stop.

What seperates Jordan from Kobe are his enormous as well as mechanical hands. Phil called them "multi-million dollar hands". They are like the hands of a brain surgeon and a wielder all in one. They have the ability to micromanage like that of a surgeon as well as the calm and steadiness of that of an expert wielder. These hands, among with Jordan's mental and physical capacity was what allowed Jordan to finish so perfectly while also taking enormous amounts of contact.

Kobe is perhaps the better shooter, at least maybe when it comes to difficult shots. He also may be more "relentless" in his jab steps and fakes, not that Jordan didn't have the same relentlessness about the game but rather Jordan was relentless in the perimeter/wing area where he is so determined to dominant and operate. I've seen Kobe jab step or fake 10+ times before he gets his shot off.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How can you not know what a hesitation move and shoulder fakes are? lol

lol? Please provide should video examples of each.

I know what a hesitation is, but you were talking (I thought) about post moves in particular. What's a shoulder fake? Is it a shot fake? Again, just post a couple of videos showing these few moves - shouldn't be difficult, right?


I've seen Kobe jab step or fake 10+ times before he gets his shot off.

This is a big reason why some Kobe fans believe that he's "more skilled" than Jordan - because he has to use a variety of said skills way more frequently than Jordan did in order to get good looks. Jordan had the same moves/feints etc., but didn't need to use them as frequently for various reasons.

[Jacks3]

lol? Please provide should video examples of each.

I know what a hesitation is, but you were talking (I thought) about post moves in particular. What's a shoulder fake? Is it a shot fake? Again, just post a couple of videos showing these few moves - shouldn't be difficult, right?




No, I'm not going to waste my time looking for examples. Go to youtube and watch some Kobe vids. You're see them eventually...assuming you know what they look like. :oldlol:

[olddangerfield]

lol? Please provide should video examples of each.

I know what a hesitation is, but you were talking (I thought) about post moves in particular. What's a shoulder fake? Is it a shot fake? Again, just post a couple of videos showing these few moves - shouldn't be difficult, right?



This is a big reason why some Kobe fans believe that he's "more skilled" than Jordan - because he has to use a variety of said skills way more frequently than Jordan did in order to get good looks. Jordan had the same moves/feints etc., but didn't need to use them as frequently for various reasons.

The skill comparison between the two is questionable, but either way it still makes Kobe a very relentless player, especially on the perimeter/wing area. Kobe may not have the talent or possibly the athleticism that Jordan had but he has definitely maximized the skills and talent to fullest extent. Kobe said that before anything he wanted to be remembered for overachieving and utilizing his ability to the very last drop.

In the end you can question Kobe's ability, skill, talent, leadership, etc to Jordan but you can never question his work ethic and determination.

/end shameless kobe apologist.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No, I'm not going to waste my time looking for examples. Go to youtube and watch some Kobe vids. You're see them eventually...assuming you know what they look like. :oldlol:

So basically you're talking out of your ass, then? Ok. At least you could describe said moves and the context you're seeing them in.

[Jacks3]

So basically you're talking out of your ass, then? Ok. At least you could describe said moves and the context you're seeing them in.

haha they're simple hesitation moves and shoulder fakes. I don't need to describe them as anyone with a ounce of b-ball knowledge knows what they are. They're used in a variety of context. Have you ever played basketball?

:oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

haha they're simple hesitation moves and shoulder fakes. I don't need to describe them as anyone with a ounce of b-ball knowledge knows what they are. They're used in a variety of context. Have you ever played basketball?

:oldlol:

I'm almost undoubtedly a (far) better basketball player than you, so yes, I've played. Again, a "hesitation" typically refers to a hesitation dribble/step on the perimeter, with a live dribble. Here you were talking about post up situations, were you not? A "shoulder fake" can mean a number of things, all with varying levels of commitment on the move. Why not either describe them or just post a video of each of them - simple, no?

[Jacks3]

I'm almost undoubtedly a (far) better basketball player than you, so yes, I've played. Again, a "hesitation" typically refers to a hesitation dribble/step on the perimeter, with a live dribble. Here you were talking about post up situations, were you not? A "shoulder fake" can mean a number of things, all with varying levels of commitment on the move. Why not either describe them or just post a video of each of them - simple, no?
lol @ your first sentence. Wow. You're seriously delusional. Anyway, if you had bothered to read the thread, you'd know I wasn't just talking about post-moves.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ your first sentence. Wow. You're seriously delusional. Anyway, if you had bothered to read the thread, you'd know I wasn't just talking about post-moves.

I'm delusional? I'm not the one who is calling into question whether another person has ever played the game just because I don't want to explain and/or post video of the specific moves they're talking about. That would be you. The fact of the matter is that you don't want to explain or post video because you know very well I can find video of Jordan performing said moves.

[Jacks3]

You keep telling yourself that buddy.

[catch24]

I'm delusional? I'm not the one who is calling into question whether another person has ever played the game just because I don't want to explain and/or post video of the specific moves they're talking about. That would be you. The fact of the matter is that you don't want to explain or post video because you know very well I can find video of Jordan performing said moves.

:oldlol: exactly

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: exactly
:oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jacks3, any video or explanation of said moves?

[Jacks3]

Jacks3, any video or explanation of said moves?
Why do you care so much? :confusedshrug:

But I'll look...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Why do you care so much? :confusedshrug:

But I'll look...

Because when someone says that another player has never done certain moves or fakes or whatever, I'm curious to see what they look like. I'm sure you'll keep me posted on your findings. :pimp:

[Jacks3]

I probably exaggerated when I said "never", but I sincerely doubt he did it as much as Bryant...or as smoothly..

[Jacks3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmsVg7YRvSA

Hesitation move. Completely gets Durant out of his socks. :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

Jordan fadeaway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21NvqWL07w) from 1988

[jstern]

I probably exaggerated when I said "never", but I sincerely doubt he did it as much as Bryant...or as smoothly..
I had to check your profile to see if you have your birthday listed. You were born in 91, you were like 12 when he retired from the Wizards. Speaking of the Wizards, you should watch some Jordan Wizards game on youtube.

How would you even know enough about Jordan's game to have such definite opinions about the 2. Jordan after his 1st retirement mostly did fade aways and fakes.

[sekachu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw

...and no, Jordan did not invent the fadeaway you delusional tools.




Of course MJ didn't invent the fadeaway, he made it popular and took it another level imo

[jstern]

This video of Jordan showing how to do the fadeaway kind of talks about what about was refering to about Kobe making mistakes that I never saw Jordan do. Harden kept stripping the ball away from Kobe, and in the video one of the main things Jordan talks about is protecting the basketball, else it's going to get stripped. I'm sure Kobe knows that, but sometimes lack of focus can cause a person to make a mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLSQqhFQ6M

Here's Harden playing defense on Kobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8

Noticed that Kobe is doing exactly what Jordan says not to do.

Like I said, the person who's able to think out of the box and expand things, the creative type is always going to be better than a person who tries to copy them. It's a mind thing.

[YouCallILose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmsVg7YRvSA

Hesitation move. Completely gets Durant out of his socks. :oldlol:

that move was worthless..he still had to make a highly contested jumper with durant in his face which is a sub 40% shot

[knightfall88]

Bron doesn't have a killer fade-away because he doesn't need to it. Nobody is blocking his shot. And no, MJ didn't pay to detail as much as Bryant. Bryant does little things that Jordan never did: the little hesitations with his dribble, the reverse pivots, the "shoulder fake" where he gets guys in the air simply by moving his shoulders as if getting ready to go into a shooting motion, etc.

There's a reason Bryant is one of only two players in history to put up 25 PPG in their 15 season. :pimp:

Let me put it this way. Every player post jordan has studied jordans moves to every detail. What jordan used to do smoothly and easily cannot be done as easily today. And athletic level of todays players is much more impressive and seem to be present in so many players.

[andgar923]

This video of Jordan showing how to do the fadeaway kind of talks about what about was refering to about Kobe making mistakes that I never saw Jordan do. Harden kept stripping the ball away from Kobe, and in the video one of the main things Jordan talks about is protecting the basketball, else it's going to get stripped. I'm sure Kobe knows that, but sometimes lack of focus can cause a person to make a mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLSQqhFQ6M

Here's Harden playing defense on Kobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8

Noticed that Kobe is doing exactly what Jordan says not to do.

Like I said, the person who's able to think out of the box and expand things, the creative type is always going to be better than a person who tries to copy them. It's a mind thing.


But earlier in this thread, we were told that MJ didn't pay attention to the details like Kobe did. We learned that Kobe was the most technically skilled player of ALL TIME!!! yes ALL TIME!!!

[Calabis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmsVg7YRvSA

Hesitation move. Completely gets Durant out of his socks. :oldlol:

LMAO!!!! He was trying to pull up and lost the ball, both hands touch the ball then he just recovers the dropped ball

[Jacks3]

I had to check your profile to see if you have your birthday listed. You were born in 91, you were like 12 when he retired from the Wizards. Speaking of the Wizards, you should watch some Jordan Wizards game on youtube.

How would you even know enough about Jordan's game to have such definite opinions about the 2. Jordan after his 1st retirement mostly did fade aways and fakes.
Profile is wrong. I watched Jordan. He didn't have Bryant's skill' Deal with it.

[Jacks3]

LMAO!!!! He was trying to pull up and lost the ball, both hands touch the ball then he just recovers the dropped ball
Not really. He didn't lose the ball until after the hesitation. Fail.

[Jacks3]

that move was worthless..he still had to make a highly contested jumper with durant in his face which is a sub 40% shot
:facepalm

[Horatio33]

Profile is wrong. I watched Jordan. He didn't have Bryant's skill' Deal with it.

Why didn't he have Bryant's skill?

[Jacks3]

Why didn't he have Bryant's skill?
If you look at things like ball-handling, foot-work, outside shooting and other technical skills, it's clear Jordan was inferior. Why? Well, I suspect he didn't work/focus on those things as much as Bryant because he's a much better athlete, and that's also the reason he's a superior player.

[jstern]

Profile is wrong. I watched Jordan. He didn't have Bryant's skill' Deal with it.
No shame in only being 19 or 20. I wish that was my age.

You responded to a lot of post, but I wanted to hear your opinion of what I posted, here.


This video of Jordan showing how to do the fadeaway kind of talks about what about was refering to about Kobe making mistakes that I never saw Jordan do. Harden kept stripping the ball away from Kobe, and in the video one of the main things Jordan talks about is protecting the basketball, else it's going to get stripped. I'm sure Kobe knows that, but sometimes lack of focus can cause a person to make a mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLSQqhFQ6M

Here's Harden playing defense on Kobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8

Noticed that Kobe is doing exactly what Jordan says not to do.

Like I said, the person who's able to think out of the box and expand things, the creative type is always going to be better than a person who tries to copy them. It's a mind thing.

Since you say Kobe is more skilled, but I'm seeing him make mistake Jordan never made.

[Jacks3]

No shame in only being 19 or 20. I wish that was my age.

You responded to a lot of post, but I wanted to hear your opinion of what I posted, here.



Since you say Kobe is more skilled, but I'm seeing him make mistake Jordan never made.
But I'm not 19 or 20. And one mistake doesn't mean Kobe doesn't have more skill overall. Just look at their ball-handling. How often did Jordan display the type of creativity and counter-moves with the ball like Prime Kobe routinely did?

[YouCallILose]

:facepalm

wtf are you facepalming about? the damn shot was almost blocked

[Jacks3]

Not really. That's not a tough shot for Bryant at all. He's not Durant. lol

[YouCallILose]

Not really. That's not a tough shot for Bryant at all. He's not Durant. lol

which would explain why durant has a higher career FG%, 3P%, FT%, TS%, eFG%, and will have an equal amount of scoring titles after April. But ya congrats to Kobe being carried to titles by Shaq & Gasol/Bynum. Want to know why Kobe is the most hated player in NBA history? It's not because of winning, I'll tell you that much.

[Nevaeh]

But I'm not 19 or 20. And one mistake doesn't mean Kobe doesn't have more skill overall. Just look at their ball-handling. How often did Jordan display the type of creativity and counter-moves with the ball like Prime Kobe routinely did?

Jordan didn't have to rely on:

"stop/upfake/pull down/turn/upfake/upfake/spin/shoot" type moves because he was usually quicker than his opponents. He knew how to get to any spot on the court to get whatever shot he needed. Kobe uses constant fakes because he simply slower than Jordan. What you call "Skill", I call not being able to get the shot you really want, and being forced to go to "plan B" all the time.

Here's Jordan at age 40 going against "current era" competition. Notice how he doesn't waste time on his shots and stays active even without the Ball. That's a "skill" as well. You don't have to be an "Athletic Freak" to move without the Ball, and Jordan by this time was far from being his younger athletic self.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkvX356cpQ&feature=related

[Jacks3]

which would explain why durant has a higher career FG%, 3P%, FT%, TS%, eFG%, and will have an equal amount of scoring titles after April. But ya congrats to Kobe being carried to titles by Shaq & Gasol/Bynum. Want to know why Kobe is the most hated player in NBA history? It's not because of winning, I'll tell you that much.
Durant can have his efficiency stats. The fact is, a 15th-year/past-prime Kobe is still the better player. There's more to basketball than TS%. Remember that.

As for as Kobe being " carried" by Shaq/Odom/Bynum, well, that's just laughable.

Especially Bynum. Really? The guy who put up 6/4 in the 09 playoffs and 8/7 last year? Really? And he was "carrying" the guy who put up 30+/6/6/2/57%?

:roll:

[Jacks3]

Jordan didn't have to rely on:

"stop/upfake/pull down/turn/upfake/upfake/spin/shoot" type moves because he was usually quicker than his opponents. He knew how to get to any spot on the court to get whatever shot he needed. Kobe uses constant fakes because he simply slower than Jordan.
Yeah, I already said, and it's also the reason he has inferior skill.

[jstern]

bump, because of all the Jordan fadeaway talk today, with some resentful youngings angry that many considered it the GOAT fadeaway.

[Stringer Bell]

As much as people talk about MJ and Kobe's fadeaways, where does Dirk rank?

Maybe not easy to compare because of different positions, but Dirk has one of the best fadeaways ever IMO. He goes off either two feet or one foot, left or right leg up, crazy range. His footwork isn't polished like MJ and Kobe's are but he still manages to make all these crazy shots. Plus he's a 7 footer which makes him even harder to block.

[Teanett]

As much as people talk about MJ and Kobe's fadeaways, where does Dirk rank?

Maybe not easy to compare because of different positions, but Dirk has one of the best fadeaways ever IMO. He goes off either two feet or one foot, left or right leg up, crazy range. His footwork isn't polished like MJ and Kobe's are but he still manages to make all these crazy shots. Plus he's a 7 footer which makes him even harder to block.

check it out:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225026

[swi7ch]

How many times has Kobe quit on his team? How about Jordan?

[gengiskhan]

If you look at things like ball-handling, foot-work, outside shooting and other technical skills, it's clear Jordan was inferior. Why? Well, I suspect he didn't work/focus on those things as much as Bryant because he's a much better athlete, and that's also the reason he's a superior player.
:lol

another kobe'tard needs psychiatric counceling for inferior IQ. :roll:

MJ's footwork, ball handling, outside shooting has been absolutely jawdropping since 1984. MJ can pull up from absolutely any where inside the half court. yes INSIDE THE HALF COURT with proper form jumpshot since 1987.

Kobe's moves are mostly pre-medicated. MJ's were way too natural. MJ has a proper rocking chair conformation in mid-air in his fadeaway. Kobe dont cuz of inferior skill set.

Copy Bryant is a better athlete. :roll: :roll:
Copy Bryant is only better at raping girls & riding shaq for 3 rings than MJ.

[macpierce]

kobes fadeaway was great especially in 2005-2006, it looked unstoppable at time. but his knees gave out with the scoping surgeries

[Kobe24Clutch]

Another Riding Jordan's jock thread :lol Lefraud and Kobe are better than that fool.

[Boston C's]

Another Riding Jordan's jock thread :lol Lefraud and Kobe are better than that fool.

...never in a million yrs

lefraud lost his chance to be better when he said he wants the pressure off of him and then went to what lebron fans refuse to admit WADES TEAM to make his life easier, kobe is the closest thing to jordan but when its all said and done he'll fall just short and thats not a knock on kobe because hes a heck of a player

[imlmf]

already know what i'm going to reply soon as i saw the thread title:

jordan>>>>>>kobe

[Samurai Swoosh]

Since you seem to like old footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&NR=1
I like listening to Isiah commentate.

[Samurai Swoosh]

LMAO!!!! He was trying to pull up and lost the ball, both hands touch the ball then he just recovers the dropped ball
No he didn't dumb ass, that's a hesitation move. Iverson started that ...

[jstern]

bump, because of all the Jordan fadeaway talk today, with some resentful youngings angry that many considered it the GOAT fadeaway.
Can't help bumping this for the same reason again.

[Dro]

Can't help bumping this for the same reason again.
ditto....