Is Kobe a Top 5 Player of All-time if Lakers win another Championship? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-06-2011, 05:54 PM

If Kobe wins 6 rings would he be considered a Top 5 Player in NBA history?

'Toine=MVP

03-06-2011, 06:02 PM

FadeAwayJ13

03-06-2011, 06:02 PM

Let's not do this again.

http://k.min.us/ilG8kW.jpg

alenleomessi

03-06-2011, 06:03 PM

The_Yearning

03-06-2011, 06:06 PM

It is kind of crazy, but I think if Kobe had only 1 ring (but it was one of his latest 2), he wouldn't drop at all in most people's personal rankings. I think people really discount the first 3 rings, which is appropriate.

I can't imagine even 2 more rings getting him past Magic or Bird or Shaq or whoever else. Maybe past Tim Duncan if you currently have him ahead. Kobe pretty much has nowhere to go, up or down, at this point. Only some young player whose career hasn't been defined yet, can affect his ranking at this point.

Are you kidding me? Kobe is easily the GOAT Laker. Shaq is below Duncan. Nobody can affect Kobe but Kobe himself at this stage. Imagine those Lakers team without Kobe...they'd be a lot like the current Orlando Magic. No go to guy in the clutch. You can't win without a go 2 guy.

72-10

03-06-2011, 06:14 PM

no, definitely top ten, not top five

kaiiu

03-06-2011, 06:16 PM

NO.

Cangri

03-06-2011, 06:16 PM

Depends on how he plays obviously, but why shouldn't he be?

'Toine=MVP

03-06-2011, 06:17 PM

Are you kidding me? Kobe is easily the GOAT Laker.

Well, he's after Magic for sure, if we are just talking about what players did in a Laker uniform. If we include what they did in another uniform, then Kareem, Wilt, Shaq are all ahead, and Kobe can't do anything to catch any of them.

72-10

03-06-2011, 06:18 PM

well, i guess i should point out that it would largely depend on how much he is involved in his team winning, i think that's kind of a given

SayQueensbridge

03-06-2011, 06:18 PM

Already top 5.

OldSchoolBBall

03-06-2011, 06:19 PM

No, but he moves even with or slightly ahead of Duncan at #8. MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Russell/Magic/Bird/Shaq would still be ahead of him.

rs98762001

03-06-2011, 06:19 PM

I think people really discount the first 3 rings, which is appropriate.
How exactly is it "appropriate"?

Walduś

03-06-2011, 06:20 PM

top 3.

olddangerfield

03-06-2011, 06:20 PM

Yes, only a handful of players have 6 rings. Kareem only has 5 and was 2nd option on at least 2 or 3 of those teams and he's easily considered top5.

elementally morale

03-06-2011, 06:21 PM

Top 6, not necessarily in order:

Kareem
Jordan
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird

After them I'd say it's wide open between Shaq/Duncan/Kobe, and if Kobe wins #6 he will distance himself from Duncan and Shaq.

So I say not top 5 yet, but good for #7

Ne 1

03-06-2011, 06:22 PM

Are you kidding me? Kobe is easily the GOAT Laker. Shaq is below Duncan. Nobody can affect Kobe but Kobe himself at this stage. Imagine those Lakers team without Kobe...they'd be a lot like the current Orlando Magic. No go to guy in the clutch. You can't win without a go 2 guy.

After he retires he will likely go down as the GOAT Laker, but right now I have him right there, or slightly below Magic/Kareem.

However for some people though with a stigma for Kobe, as well as some old school fans will never even think about putting Kobe on the same level as Magic, Kareem and even West, no matter what he does.

M.Bustly15A5RU8

03-06-2011, 06:23 PM

Kobe never had the individual impact for me to consider him top 10.

I have these guys ranked above him off the top of my head in terms of individual impact:

Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Olajuwon
Shaq
Micheal Jordan
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett (wasted career on the Timberscrubs)
Karl Malone
Larry Bird

Irish

03-06-2011, 06:24 PM

10 years time yes, right now no. I think Kobe's resume will be looked upon favourably once he retires.

rs98762001

03-06-2011, 06:25 PM

No, but he moves even with or slightly ahead of Duncan at #8. MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Russell/Magic/Bird/Shaq would still be ahead of him.
I actually think it's possible that Bryant moves ahead of Shaq with another ring. While he was never as dominant a force as O'Neal at his best, he also has been a better player over a longer period of time, and will have successfully managed to engineer a three-peat of his "own," meaning his achievements will stand at the very least equal with Shaq's.

G-Funk

03-06-2011, 06:26 PM

yes

Rnbizzle

03-06-2011, 06:26 PM

At least.

keep_it_real

03-06-2011, 06:32 PM

if he able to have a good series shooting hopefully around 25-27 ppg on 45-47% with 5 reb and 5 ast...he could jump to 6-7th spot for sure and MAYBE take bird's spot

jordan
wilt
kareem
russell
magic
bird
kobe
duncan
shaq
olajuwon

elementally morale

03-06-2011, 06:34 PM

Irish

03-06-2011, 06:36 PM

Random addition, would Shaq be a certain top 5 if he won a ring in Orlando? It pains me seeing the guy so low on these lists, though career wise its fair to do so.

macpierce

03-06-2011, 06:37 PM

with #6 he could be top 5, but should be slightly higher than shaq and duncan

72-10

03-06-2011, 06:40 PM

Random addition, would Shaq be a certain top 5 if he won a ring in Orlando? It pains me seeing the guy so low on these lists, though career wise its fair to do so.

No, half the time Shaq had the ball you could argue that he committed an offensive foul, and he was a woeful free throw shooter. So he had some clear weaknesses keeping him out of a top five.

NBASTATMAN

03-06-2011, 06:45 PM

If Kobe wins 6 rings would he be considered a Top 5 Player in NBA history?

If he finally plays good in the finals than maybe he will move up to 8th.. But as you see today its the size of the LAKERS that makes them very hard to beat... Three of the best bigs in the league really help the Lakers stomp on the competition.. Than you have Kobe , one of the greatest, and Artest , with pippen like defense, to go with their much better bench and the GOAT coach...

Still don't like them though.. :rockon:

NBASTATMAN

03-06-2011, 06:46 PM

elementally morale

03-06-2011, 06:47 PM

What ever happens to MIKAN?

Never saw him playing, but I have to say basketball was a totally different game back then. So I don't consider him at all.

Ne 1

03-06-2011, 06:49 PM

Artest , with pippen like defense

Wow.

the_wise_one

03-06-2011, 07:03 PM

He's not top 5 even if he wins another 10 rings courtesy of David Stern.

Warriors fan

03-06-2011, 07:08 PM

drew222

03-06-2011, 08:42 PM

with one more Championship he is top 5.... at no.5 and everybody keeps talking about his peak or dominance here's how i judge peak, take a players best 5 years and get the averages, heres some examples

Kobe Bryant: Years 01,03,06,07,08

30.7 pts 6.0 reb 5.2 ast 3.2 tov 45fg%

Tim Duncan: Years 99,00,02,03,04

23.2 pts 12.3 reb 3.2 ast 3.0 tov 50fg%

Shaq: Years 94,95,98,00,01

29.0 pts 12.4 reb 3.0 ast 2.7 tov 58fg%

Michael Jordan: Years 87,88,89,90,93

34.0 pts 6.4 reb 6.0 ast 3.1 tov 51fg%

Larry Bird: Years 84,85,86,87,88

27.3 pts 9.7 reb 6.7 ast 3.0 tov 51fg%

ginobli2311

03-06-2011, 08:45 PM

all depends on if we are ranking players or careers.

career wise i'd put kobe top 5 if he wins another title.

as a player? he's stuck at number 10 for me unless he does something legendary in terms of level of play and impact.

AlphaWolf24

03-06-2011, 08:48 PM

99.9% of the basketball fanbase and media outlets would say yes...most likely top 3 if he won his 6th title.

a very small % of the fanbase known as "hardcorefan with backup arguementalformulatics" would say no.

IMO he would be top 3 alltime if he won his 6th.

(BTW hardcorefan with backupformulatics could also prove that the French foreign legionaries on paper were actually a better warrior then the U.S. special forces or Spartan despite never winning anything....just an example of how hardcorefan thinks)

blacknapalm

03-06-2011, 08:49 PM

top 7 potentially if he has a great finals. don't really see top 5 tbh.

bl2k8

03-06-2011, 08:51 PM

Depends on how he wins it

Nevaeh

03-06-2011, 09:02 PM

Naw his achievements can only get him so far he's not 5 talent so he should not be included in top 5. I mean top 5 should only be for players that were so good it's unbelievable like we may never that type of talent again. Well Kobe he's not that special just a great player that had some great teams. If there was draft with every NBA player that played would he even top 20. Top 10 career but top 20 as a player.

Same sentiments. Being able to take difficult shots simply because you insist on taking them is an indication of an issue with your B-Ball IQ. Top 5 is reserved for the geniuses of the Game, and Kobe's simply not one of them.

Stuckey

03-06-2011, 09:04 PM

Jacks3

03-06-2011, 09:05 PM

Depends on how he wins it
Pretty much. If he puts up 29-30+/6+/5+/2/57% TS over a full post-season with some historical series like he did in 08,09, and 2010...

IGOTGAME

03-06-2011, 09:06 PM

No, but he moves even with or slightly ahead of Duncan at #8. MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Russell/Magic/Bird/Shaq would still be ahead of him.

I can see that...

But 4-peat? Then he moves ahead of Bird and Shaq and possibly Wilt and possibly Magic.

People are gonna have to start rationalizing why Kobe wins so much after a while...Its not like he has GOAT supporting cast ever now... Even a three peat would be insane looking at the other teams in the league right now. But a four-peat, definately puts him ahead of Bird and Shaq.

AlphaWolf24

03-06-2011, 09:07 PM

Same sentiments. Being able to take difficult shots simply because you insist on taking them is an indication of an issue with your B-Ball IQ. Top 5 is reserved for the geniuses of the Game, and Kobe's simply not one of them.

Darn Kobe insisting on shooting....just imagine how many titles the lakers could have won without Kobe insisting on shooting.

He's only brought L.A. 7 NBA Finals winning 5 in 12 years as a starter....trade him.

NBASTATMAN

03-06-2011, 09:08 PM

If Kobe wins 6 rings would he be considered a Top 5 Player in NBA history?

how many of these threads are we going to have? Dude is going to wind up 5-7.. No matter what he does you can't overlook his past performances.. Too many bad ones in big SERIES...

NBASTATMAN

03-06-2011, 09:10 PM

Nevaeh

03-06-2011, 09:19 PM

Darn Kobe insisting on shooting....just imagine how many titles the lakers could have won without Kobe insisting on shooting.

He's only brought L.A. 7 NBA Finals winning 5 in 12 years as a starter....trade him.

"Is He Foreal??"

http://beatcrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Owl-City-Makes-Shaquille-ONeal-Star-Of-Vanilla-Twilight-Video.jpg

Bandito

03-06-2011, 09:43 PM

That's sarcasm dude.

IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-06-2011, 11:51 PM

Naw his achievements can only get him so far he's not 5 talent so he should not be included in top 5. I mean top 5 should only be for players that were so good it's unbelievable like we may never that type of talent again. Well Kobe he's not that special just a great player that had some great teams. If there was draft with every NBA player that played would he even top 20. Top 10 career but top 20 as a player.

I think you're underrating Kobe. He's not Scottie Pippen.

Laker19

03-07-2011, 12:26 AM

how many of these threads are we going to have? Dude is going to wind up 5-7.. No matter what he does you can't overlook his past performances.. Too many bad ones in big SERIES...

Those BAD series will be overlooked due to the media
Kobe is known for many things, clutch, killer instinct, ultimate competitor, one of the greatest scorers the league has ever seen etc.... and this is all thanks to the media, factor those in with his accomplishments. Current analysts have him in the top 10 or just outside of it so imagine what another ring will do. As much as some may hate it, the media puts a lot of stocks into rings. I think his longevity will allow him to pass duncan and shaq, and at some point Bird. MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic is the top tier I feel the media will never let him surpass.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 12:38 AM

I believe that if Kobe leads the Lakers to a title this year, and that is a BIG IF, that he would probably vault Shaq and Duncan, and be somewhere around 6th all-time. The real intriguing scenario would be TWO more (especially if they become four-in-a-row.) IMHO, he would probably be considered perhaps as high as #3, with only MJ and Russell having a case over him.

Disaprine

03-07-2011, 12:42 AM

nope, still around number 10.

IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-07-2011, 12:45 AM

I really can't come up with a list of more than 5-6 people who would be better than Kobe.

Nevaeh

03-07-2011, 12:56 AM

nope, still around number 10.

Still have that 45% career shooting, still have that questionable B-Ball IQ and still have those less than Legendary showings in the Finals. One thing Kobe always was, was a consistently inconsistent player above any Superstar who's ever played. what was he, like 36-115 in clutch shooting or something like that? And guys are arguing for "top 5" status?:oldlol: 1 regular season MVP after 15 years? Great player for his time, but not Legendary.

KenneBell

03-07-2011, 01:00 AM

I think he'll get his chance by the end of his career. It's going to be hard to argue with 6 championships, 2-3FMVPs, 14-15x ASG's, 9-10 All-NBA 1st Teams, etc.

If he plays out his contract, it's his longevity that will help him reach that status.

He's basically a winning Karl Malone. :oldlol:

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:08 AM

Still have that 45% career shooting, still have that questionable B-Ball IQ and still have those less than Legendary showings in the Finals. One thing Kobe always was, was a consistently inconsistent player above any Superstar who's ever played. what was he, like 36-115 in clutch shooting or something like that? And guys are arguing for "top 5" status?:oldlol: 1 regular season MVP after 15 years? Great player for his time, but not Legendary.

Yes, let's dismiss all of his other great playoff series, especially against the Spurs throughout the years. Let's forget all of the 30+ ppg post-seasons. Let's pretend that 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97 ppg is not noteworthy. Or his 81 point game, which, IMHO, was not even his greatest game (outscoring an 18-6 Mavs team that would reach the Finals in three quarters, by HIMSELF.) Let's praise MJ for shooting .455, .427, and .415 in his last three Finals, but rip Kobe for his poor shooting performances. Or that if you factor in league average FG%, that he scored considerably more than Bird and on about the same efficiency. Or that a sixth ring, three as the clear #1 guy, and two of the other's as a solid #2 (especially in the WCF's) would separate him from Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, and given the total of six, even from Duncan...

Nope...not legendary.

thejumpa

03-07-2011, 01:12 AM

He's a top 5 player if he never wins another title in his career.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 01:15 AM

With 6 rings and 3 Finals MVPs? Defiantly in the conversation.

Not to mention he would have two 3-peats, which is something only Jordan and Russell have accomplished. (Russell won 8 straight championships).

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:17 AM

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 01:21 AM

And how many posters here have Russell in their top-5 as well?

I think the majority has him in their top 5.

KenneBell

03-07-2011, 01:22 AM

And how many posters here have Russell in their top-5 as well?
I've got him at #3.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:23 AM

I've got him at #3.

:cheers:

Heilige

03-07-2011, 01:27 AM

Yes, let's dismiss all of his other great playoff series, especially against the Spurs throughout the years. Let's forget all of the 30+ ppg post-seasons. Let's pretend that 35 ppg in a league that averaged 97 ppg is not noteworthy. Or his 81 point game, which, IMHO, was not even his greatest game (outscoring an 18-6 Mavs team that would reach the Finals in three quarters, by HIMSELF.) Let's praise MJ for shooting .455, .427, and .415 in his last three Finals, but rip Kobe for his poor shooting performances. Or that if you factor in league average FG%, that he scored considerably more than Bird and on about the same efficiency. Or that a sixth ring, three as the clear #1 guy, and two of the other's as a solid #2 (especially in the WCF's) would separate him from Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, and given the total of six, even from Duncan...

Nope...not legendary.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Heilige

03-07-2011, 01:29 AM

Disaprine

03-07-2011, 01:30 AM

And how many posters here have Russell in their top-5 as well?
I have him tied with Wilt at number 1.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:31 AM

I have him tied with Wilt at number 1.

:cheers: :cheers:

KG5MVP

03-07-2011, 01:31 AM

I dont even have Bill Russell as top 10, he's basically just a poor man's version of Dwight Howard.

Heilige

03-07-2011, 01:32 AM

:cheers: :cheers:

I have him at number 2 behind Jordan.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:32 AM

I have him at number 2 behind Jordan.

:cheers:

OldSchoolBBall

03-07-2011, 01:33 AM

People are gonna have to start rationalizing why Kobe wins so much after a while...Its not like he has GOAT supporting cast ever now... Even a three peat would be insane looking at the other teams in the league right now. But a four-peat, definately puts him ahead of Bird and Shaq.

Kobe is winning because he has the tallest/longest/most versatile front line in the game. This is why the Lakers win titles. Not to say Kobe isn't the best player - he is - but if you chop 2" off of Gasol/Odom/Bynum, LA isn't winning anything. Maybe they'd win 1 title over the last 4 years if that happened.

LA simply has a dominant frontline - their third best frontcourt player (depending on whether you believe that to be Odom or Bynum) is either a guy who has averaged 16/10/5 for full seasons or a guy who would average 18/11/2.5 blk/54% FG at a minimum if he were the #1 or #2 option on a team. And then you have a legit 21/11/2/53% FG player in there as well. You're talking serious talent on that frontline, and, more importantly, serious size/length. It's easy to see how impactful that is if you watch Laker games. They straight scare and dominate teams based on their size/length alone. Size is the most important factor in basketball, and LA's success proves that. No one has a chance of dethroning them until they can match their size at the 4/5 spots. Has little to do with Kobe, despite him being their best player (clearly).

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:33 AM

I dont even have Bill Russell as top 10, he's basically just a poor man's version of Dwight Howard.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Walduś

03-07-2011, 01:34 AM

I dont even have Bill Russell as top 10, he's basically just a poor man's version of tyson chandler.
fixed

Stuckey

03-07-2011, 01:36 AM

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

ignore the troll

kobe wins because he has the best supporting cast each year he wins, simple as that

`10 could have gone either way and kobe wasnt dominant, the difference between his performance in the Suns series and the Celtics series is not surprising but shouldnt be overlooked either

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG5MVP
I dont even have Bill Russell as top 10, he's basically just a poor man's version of tyson chandler.

fixed

Yep...when you think about ALL-TIME greats, Tyson Chandler is the first player that comes to mind.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:40 AM

ignore the troll

kobe wins because he has the best supporting cast each year he wins, simple as that

`10 could have gone either way and kobe wasnt dominant, the difference between his performance in the Suns series and the Celtics series is not surprising but shouldnt be overlooked either

You could use that same argument with MJ, too. My god they went 55-27 with replaicng him with Kukoc, and were an eye-lash away from beating a Knick team in a game seven that would lose a close game seven against the Rockets. And MJ's supporting cast in his second "three-peat" was probably even better.

That is not a knock on MJ...but if you are going to use that argument against Kobe, you can probably use it against Kareem, Magic, MJ, Shaq, and even Russell, as well.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 01:40 AM

i laugh at these idiot wilt and bird fans

yea sure...

3 rings and 2 finals mvps or 2 rings 1 finals mvp > 6 rings 3 finals mvps

and all of them were top offensive and defensive players. its not like we're just comparing rings... but they are a big big biiiig tie breaker IMO

Nevaeh

03-07-2011, 01:42 AM

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:44 AM

OK jlauber tell me this. Do you have kobe in your top 5 right now? and if so who did kobe "knock off" to get there?

I have him at #8 right now...behind...

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan...and ahead of Hakeem and Bird.

IGOTGAME

03-07-2011, 01:45 AM

Kobe is winning because he has the tallest/longest/most versatile front line in the game. This is why the Lakers win titles. Not to say Kobe isn't the best player - he is - but if you chop 2" off of Gasol/Odom/Bynum, LA isn't winning anything. Maybe they'd win 1 title over the last 4 years if that happened.

LA simply has a dominant frontline - their third best frontcourt player (depending on whether you believe that to be Odom or Bynum) is either a guy who has averaged 16/10/5 for full seasons or a guy who would average 18/11/2.5 blk/54% FG at a minimum if he were the #1 or #2 option on a team. And then you have a legit 21/11/2/53% FG player in there as well. You're talking serious talent on that frontline, and, more importantly, serious size/length. It's easy to see how impactful that is if you watch Laker games. They straight scare and dominate teams based on their size/length alone.

So why hasnt the most dominant frontline one every single title in the history of the game?

This amount of frontcourt talent has been seen on teams before...

Bird failed to 3-peat with McHale,Parish and Walton...

Sampson and Hakeem failed to win a title...

Willis Reed and Bill Bradley - No 3 peat

Chris Webber and Vlade Divac and Hedo Turk failed to win a title

Nate Thurmond and Jerry Luck won 0 titles

Unseld and Hayes = no three peat

So why is Kobe winning so much? 3 straight finals appearances with a frontcourt that consists of 1 all star and 1 oft- injuried big(playoffs included) and 1 converted sf to pf?

Let the rationalizing begin...

Showtime

03-07-2011, 01:45 AM

Depends on how he plays obviously, but why shouldn't he be?
Because there are five players who were better?

Seriously, I don't get the logic behind this argument. If that makes Kobe top 5, then why don't those same people tell me why Hondo isn't already considered top 5 right now?

KenneBell

03-07-2011, 01:47 AM

How many more championships do you think Kobe can win?
Depends on his health and the Lakers' FO.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:55 AM

Nevaeh

03-07-2011, 01:56 AM

I have him at #8 right now...behind...

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan...and ahead of Hakeem and Bird.

Fair enough. Not trying to start a debate or anything, and I honestly think that's a fair position for now, all things considered.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 01:58 AM

Fair enough. Not trying to start a debate or anything, and I honestly think that's a fair position for now, all things considered.

:cheers:

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 02:03 AM

Where do you rank Russell?

russells career was mostly about rings and defense with low offensive stats

wilts career was mostly about stats and records with low rings

both are so advanced in one or two areas though that they can reach top 5 status

i would rank russell 1 spot above wilt just because rings > stats.

#1A Kareem
#1B Jordan
#3 Russell
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic

kobe and bird are nearly equal all time at #6A and 6B

then the guys like shaq, duncan, hakeem round out the top 10

IMO kobe with 1 more ring will top both magic and wilt and move into 4th spot

Round Mound

03-07-2011, 02:04 AM

If u see it that way Russel is the GOAT. even though offensively he shot like 43% FG :rolleyes:

Horry is Better than Pippen :facepalm

OldSchoolBBall

03-07-2011, 02:11 AM

So why hasnt the most dominant frontline one every single title in the history of the game?

This amount of frontcourt talent has been seen on teams before...

Bird failed to 3-peat with McHale,Parish and Walton...

Sampson and Hakeem failed to win a title...

Willis Reed and Bill Bradley - No 3 peat

Chris Webber and Vlade Divac and Hedo Turk failed to win a title

Nate Thurmond and Jerry Luck won 0 titles

Unseld and Hayes = no three peat

So why is Kobe winning so much? 3 straight finals appearances with a frontcourt that consists of 1 all star and 1 oft- injuried big(playoffs included) and 1 converted sf to pf?

Let the rationalizing begin...

Which of those frontlines had the size/length of LA's? Boston's (Bird/McHale/Parish) was probably the biggest, but Odom has 2" on Bird, Gasol has 2" on McHale, and Bynum has 2" on Parish. Also keep in mind that today's league is a size-starved league, in contrast to the 80's/90's, so it makes their advantage even greater.

IGOTGAME

03-07-2011, 02:16 AM

Which of those frontlines had the size/length of LA's? Boston's (Bird/McHale/Parish) was probably the biggest, but Odom has 2" on Bird, Gasol has 2" on McHale, and Bynum has 2" on Parish. Also keep in mind that today's league is a size-starved league, in contrast to the 80's/90's, so it makes their advantage even greater.

Wait, so all you care about is size?

Mavs have Dirk, Chandler and Haywood..All over 7 foot

Heat have Damp, Bosh, Big Z...Bosh at 6"11 is the shortest one

Celtics have Shaq, KG, Kristic all over 7 foot

Its not just the size, there are teams just as tall as the Lakers.

Blazers - Aldridge, Camby, Batum

KenneBell

03-07-2011, 02:16 AM

Which of those frontlines had the size/length of LA's? Boston's (Bird/McHale/Parish) was probably the biggest, but Odom has 2" on Bird, Gasol has 2" on McHale, and Bynum has 2" on Parish. Also keep in mind that today's league is a size-starved league, in contrast to the 80's/90's, so it makes their advantage even greater.
But, unlike those Celtics, the Lakers never play all 3 at the same time.

The Lakers do have the best frontline the league has seen in a long time when Bynum is healthy. However, you can't knock a player for having a great supporting cast. Most of the greatest players did have good players around them for much of their careers.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 02:16 AM

If u see it that way Russel is the GOAT. even though offensively he shot like 43% FG :rolleyes:

Horry is Better than Pippen :facepalm

typical argument from a DUMB FAN of a guy with NO RINGs like lebron or barkley etc...

theres a thing called "teirs" jacka***ssss

- great players
- good players
- average players
- bad players

the rings for great players are compared with rings from OTHER GREAT PLAYERS ONLY

so no... horry isnt better than pippen. because horry was a role player. and pippen was an allstar.

horrys 7 rings make him the GOAT role player

pippens 6 rings make him the GOAT second banana

and a guys rings are only as valuable as his game. if a guy isnt a complete player. his rings take a hit

if russell had as complete a game as jordan. there wouldnt even be a debate for GOAT would there?

jlauber

03-07-2011, 02:19 AM

russells career was mostly about rings and defense with low offensive stats

wilts career was mostly about stats and records with low rings

both are so advanced in one or two areas though that they can reach top 5 status

i would rank russell 1 spot above wilt just because rings > stats.

#1A Kareem
#1B Jordan
#3 Russell
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic

kobe and bird are nearly equal all time at #6A and 6B

then the guys like shaq, duncan, hakeem round out the top 10

IMO kobe with 1 more ring will top both magic and wilt and move into 4th spot

Actually, I was surprised by your list. It looks pretty damned good.

A couple of points, though. I ALWAYS connect Wilt with Russell. Which is why I justify Chamberlain at #4 on my list. Wilt was a TOTAL of NINE points away from having a 5-3 edge in H2H rings against Russell, and in the majority of seasons, on far inferior rosters (as well as a variety of incredible events that went against him and his teams.) Throw in the fact that Wilt was probably robbed of a ring in the '70 Finals, and he was an eye-lash away from seven rings.

Furthermore, H2H, he outplayed Russell in the vast majority of their games, and downright buried him in about one-third of them. Had Russell and his Celtics slaughtered Wilt and his team's year-after-year, there would be no doubt as to who the better player was. But the reality was, Wilt usually outplayed Russell, and carried much weaker rosters to TWO near upsets of the great Dynasty. AND, swap Wilt and Russell's casts in their first six years in the league together, and I honestly believe that Wilt goes 6-0 in rings.

Then, when Wilt was finally given a comparable supporting cast, he led them to a complete annihilation of Russell and the Celtics. So, here again, Wilt PROVED that had he had a comparable roster, that he could win a title against Russell. Some wiull argue '68 and '69, but I have addressed those two series many times. Injuries just DECIMATED Wilt's '68 team, and a combination of incredible events prevented the Lakers from romping to a 4-1 series win in '69. In any case, both of those series were decided in game seven's, and by a total of six points, in games that Wilt, even as poorly as he played, STILL outplayed Russell. And, BTW, he was severely hobbled in that '68 series, too...in addition to missing HOFer Cunningham for the entire series, and then having both Jackson and Jones suffer injuries in game five of a series they led, 3-1.

So, while Wilt "only" has two rings, he was as close to another FIVE (or even more if you study his career), and in an era dominated by the greatest dynasty in major professional sports history. And, once again, he was probably never outplayed by an opposing center in his 29 post-season series. And in the majority of them, he just crushed him.

And, of course, you simply can't ignore the Record Book, which is just PLASTERED with Chamberlain's name on every page.

OldSchoolBBall

03-07-2011, 02:28 AM

Wait, so all you care about is size?

Mavs have Dirk, Chandler and Haywood..All over 7 foot

And why do you think that people are saying that the Mavs will pose the biggest challenge for LA this postseason? Precisely for this reason.

And no, it's not JUST size/length, it's also ability. Gasol, Bynum, and Odom are all incredibly talented and agile. Haywood and Chandler just don't compare.

Heat have Damp, Bosh, Big Z...Bosh at 6"11 is the shortest one

If Z and Damp were about 6 years younger you'd have a decent case.

Celtics have Shaq, KG, Kristic all over 7 foot

Celtics had the size up front to deal with LA before the Perkins trade; now, with Shaq out indefinitely, they'll fare worse.

amfirst

03-07-2011, 02:51 AM

No, half the time Shaq had the ball you could argue that he committed an offensive foul, and he was a woeful free throw shooter. So he had some clear weaknesses keeping him out of a top five.

Yes, and also the fact that he wasn't a closer, which I think is really important if u want to be up in the list. I thought Duncan is a better closer than Shaq and would rank him above shaq.

amfirst

03-07-2011, 02:55 AM

Kobe will prob end up as the greastest Laker when it is all said and done. U just can't deny him with all the accomplishments he has done.

Shaq to me is Dwight playing playing with a young Kobe. I'm sure Kobe can make Dwight look as good or better than Shaq if they were playing together. At least Dwight would be able to close out games.

Gifted Mind

03-07-2011, 02:57 AM

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 03:11 AM

:facepalm

This is all I can do on Inisdehoops these days

hes right though

shaq has 0 finals mvps, 0 mvps without an elite kobe....

from 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011

thats 10 years of around 25+ppg, 10+ reb with allstars like penny, vanexel, jones, wade from 1992 - 2006

and not one single mvp, finals mvp?

Gifted Mind

03-07-2011, 03:27 AM

jlauber

03-07-2011, 03:32 AM

hes right though

shaq has 0 finals mvps, 0 mvps without an elite kobe....

from 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011

thats 10 years of around 25+ppg, 10+ reb with allstars like penny, vanexel, jones, wade from 1992 - 2006

and not one single mvp, finals mvp?

You could probably carry that speculation to nearly every Finals MVP and every MVP, as well, though. Does Kobe win a Finals MVP without Gasol (do the Lakers even make the playoffs without Gasol?) Does MJ win six Finals MVPs without Pippen? Does Russell win 11 rings without Sam Jones and John Havlicek? Does Magic win five rings without Kareem, and vice-versa?

Shaq was probably the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 03:44 AM

You could probably carry that speculation to nearly every Finals MVP and every MVP, as well, though. Does Kobe win a Finals MVP without Gasol (do the Lakers even make the playoffs without Gasol?) Does MJ win six Finals MVPs without Pippen? Does Russell win 11 rings without Sam Jones and John Havlicek? Does Magic win five rings without Kareem, and vice-versa?

Shaq was probably the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.

big difference between never winning a finals mvp without your second best player being

A) the 6th greatest player of all time kobe bryant

and

B) a boarderline top 250 player all time Pau Gasol

jlauber

03-07-2011, 03:47 AM

big difference between never winning a finals mvp without your second best player being

A) the 6th greatest player of all time kobe bryant

and

B) a boarderline top 250 player all time Pau Gasol

BUT, Gasol has not been the 250th best player in the NBA in the last couple of seasons, though. He has probably been a top-10 player in the league in those two years.

ginobli2311

03-07-2011, 03:50 AM

big difference between never winning a finals mvp without your second best player being

A) the 6th greatest player of all time kobe bryant

and

B) a boarderline top 250 player all time Pau Gasol

what does all time ranking have to do with current team strength?

the lakers have gasol (at worst the 15th best player in the league) who is a back to back all-nba player. they have bynum. one of the best true centers in the league even when he's 50%. they have a borderline top 25 player in the league coming off the bench in odom who is ideal for this system as he doesn't need the ball to impactful.

then you have the greatest coach ever and one of the most clutch role players ever in fisher.

its all about circumstances compared to the current league. and kobe's supporting casts since 08 have been either the best or 2nd best in the league. even a huge homer would admit this.

jlauber

03-07-2011, 03:53 AM

what does all time ranking have to do with current team strength?

the lakers have gasol (at worst the 15th best player in the league) who is a back to back all-nba player. they have bynum. one of the best true centers in the league even when he's 50%. they have a borderline top 25 player in the league coming off the bench in odom who is ideal for this system as he doesn't need the ball to impactful.

then you have the greatest coach ever and one of the most clutch role players ever in fisher.

its all about circumstances compared to the current league. and kobe's supporting casts since 08 have been either the best or 2nd best in the league. even a huge homer would admit this.

Exactly. And I could also argue that had Shaq not played with Kobe in the early 00's, that he might have scored 35 ppg, or perhaps even more. He might not have won a title, but he would still have been considered the best player in the game.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 04:04 AM

BUT, Gasol has not been the 250th best player in the NBA in the last couple of seasons, though. He has probably been a top-10 player in the league in those two years.

lol gasols never made anything above 3rd team all nba ( and only made it twice )

hes top 15 ish

no way is he top 10 or has ever been top 10

1. kobe
2. wade
3. lebron
4. howard
5. rose
6. paul
7. dirk
8. melo
9. Durant
10. Stoudemire
11. Deron
12. Blake
13. Westbrook
14. Gasol

and a healthy yao ming is also better.

when kobe and shaq were winning it was arguably

1A. Shaq
1B. Kobe

in the LEAGUE

ginobli2311

03-07-2011, 04:07 AM

Exactly. And I could also argue that had Shaq not played with Kobe in the early 00's, that he might have scored 35 ppg, or perhaps even more. He might not have won a title, but he would still have been considered the best player in the game.

People always forget to mention the natural progression of players. Players almost always get better over time. Their stats might not be better, but in terms of knowing how to win, players get better.

The Shaq from Orlando was simply not the same player that he became.

Same thing with Gasol. Gasol was very good before, but he has grown as a player naturally and is now in a system that allows him to flourish with fantastic off the ball movement and passing. He's in a system conducive to his style.

For Shaq, he got much better. He also was good enough to win titles in 98 and 99 imo....maybe even earlier. Kobe just wasn't ready to be that guy. Now, i'm not saying that a guy like Ray Allen is better than Kobe, but i do believe a shaq/ray combo could have won 2 or 3 titles from 97 to 04.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 04:08 AM

Exactly. And I could also argue that had Shaq not played with Kobe in the early 00's, that he might have scored 35 ppg, or perhaps even more. He might not have won a title, but he would still have been considered the best player in the game.

poppycock

only way shaqs game works is by having a great second option so he can pound it inside without collapsing defense.

teams have to respect him making the pass out of a double team in order for him to even have a chance at taking a shot within 5 feet.

basketball 101... guards dont need centers to get shots... centers need guards for shots

ginobli2311

03-07-2011, 04:10 AM

lol gasols never made anything above 3rd team all nba ( and only made it twice )

hes top 15 ish

no way is he top 10 or has ever been top 10

1. kobe
2. wade
3. lebron
4. howard
5. rose
6. paul
7. dirk
8. melo
9. Durant
10. Stoudemire
11. Deron
12. Blake
13. Westbrook
14. Gasol

and a healthy yao ming is also better.

when kobe and shaq were winning it was arguably

1A. Shaq
1B. Kobe

in the LEAGUE

before this year, i'd absolutely for sure take Gasol over westbrook, blake (obviously), rose, amare. guys like melo, paul, and deron are debatable.

but once again. its about fit. in his role as a big that can do what he does, what other player other than dwight howard or possibly dirk is a better fit?

and no, kobe was never a better player than duncan from 97 to 04. in fact, duncan was superior all the way up 07 imo. but that is a different debate.

but if you want to have a legit conversation, please don't put kobe ahead of duncan.
its a legit question. would you rather have kobe and lebron or kobe and gasol? i honestly don't know how i would answer.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 04:16 AM

before this year, i'd absolutely for sure take Gasol over westbrook, blake (obviously), rose, amare. guys like melo, paul, and deron are debatable.

but once again. its about fit. in his role as a big that can do what he does, what other player other than dwight howard or possibly dirk is a better fit?

its a legit question. would you rather have kobe and lebron or kobe and gasol? i honestly don't know how i would answer.

yeah but a year or 2 ago guys like pierce, garnett, duncan, nash, bosh were all considered better than gasol

sorry bro.... gasol has never been better than 14-15th best in the nba

shaq, and magic needed the 2nd best player in the nba. jordan, wilt and russell needed the 3rd best player in the nba, larry needed the 5th best,

dont hate on kobe just cause he didnt need a top of the line second banana :lol

ginobli2311

03-07-2011, 04:23 AM

yeah but a year or 2 ago guys like pierce, garnett, duncan, nash, bosh were all considered better than gasol

sorry bro.... gasol has never been better than 14-15th best in the nba

shaq, and magic needed the 2nd best player in the nba. jordan, wilt and russell needed the 3rd best player in the nba, larry needed the 5th best,

dont hate on kobe just cause he didnt need a top of the line second banana :lol

its completely different. its about how good your team is compared to the current competition.

kobe's lakers aren't playing magic's lakers...so its not really relevant.

the historical criteria for winning around a superstar:

1. an all-nba teammate. check
2. good to great interior defense and rebounding. check
3. good to great coaching. check
4. at least 1 impact player off the bench. check
5. role players with the ability to make big shots/plays. check
6. overall a top 4 supporting cast in the league. check

you don't always need all of the above, but almost every title team has the majority of those in common. and the back to back lakers have all of the necessary historical criteria for winning titles.

not hating at all. just speaking the truth.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 04:30 AM

its completely different. its about how good your team is compared to the current competition.

kobe's lakers aren't playing magic's lakers...so its not really relevant.

the historical criteria for winning around a superstar:

1. an all-nba teammate. check
2. good to great interior defense and rebounding. check
3. good to great coaching. check
4. at least 1 impact player off the bench. check
5. role players with the ability to make big shots/plays. check
6. overall a top 4 supporting cast in the league. check

you don't always need all of the above, but almost every title team has the majority of those in common. and the back to back lakers have all of the necessary historical criteria for winning titles.

not hating at all. just speaking the truth.

lol every championship team is the best team in the league

we're comparing past championship teams to kobes

kobe has

1 allstar
1 former allstar

theres like 50 championship teams deaper than that

people seriously overrated guys like bynum, odom

odom never made an all nba team or allstar team

bynum averages like 6ppg in the playoffs

artest isnt even that good anymore

its really just kobe and gasol with a bunch of above average or good role players

NY-Knicks

03-07-2011, 04:46 AM

Obviously these are the 12 best players in the game, every one of them changed the game in one way or another. The thing is, none of these players would have the amount of success they had without other players clearing their paths to stardom. For instance, Kobe has a playing style which is similar to Jordan's and Jordan started this commercialising madness. Also would Shaq have been as dominant without the presence of the first real dominant big man (Wilt)? Even though some might have played against weak competition (no big men, no handchecking, no zone etc etc) every single one of them dominated the league. They have made the game that we are watching today.

I have never made a list like this and have never seen much gametape of certain players on this list, but I'll try.

12 - Jerry "The Logo" West.
Have got to admit, have never seen him play and therefore I cant have a good opinion about him. I list him at 12 because he didnt come through against that dominating Celtics team and that I believe the rest of the players on this list were more talented. It isnt his fault that the Celtics franchise had a stacked roster but remember; Kobe was treated the same way until he won his first Finals MVP. Jerry won his only championship with Wilt, but is the only player to be the Finals MVP while being on the losing team. Still you know you are great when the NBA logo is you.

11 - Oscar "The Big O" Robertson
Triple Double Machine, known for his incredible statlines that he put up. Did not have the team success like some of the other players on the list, which I deeply take into account with such a talented ballplayer. Had he won more than 1 championship he would have cracked the top 10 in my opinion.

10 - Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon
I had a hard time choosing between him and Kobe Bryant. Eventually I placed Kobe one spot above the Dream. I had trouble doing this because just like Moses taught me to rebound the ball, Hakeem inspired me to play in the post. I love the dream shake by the way. Great footwork one of the (if not the) best postgame ever to be shown in the NBA. Won two NBA championships as the number one guy. One time MVP and two time defensive player of the year.

The four rings group:

9 - Kobe "The Black Mamba" Bryant
As of today he is number nine on my list. However, the window is still open for him to enter the top 5 later on in his career. The fact that he won a championship as the number one guy (with a great supporting cast though) really pushed him into the top 10. He was always a great individual player but started to become more of a leader in his last three seasons. He played amazing at the beginning of the season until he got sidetracked by injuries later on. He really needed that rest. If he wins another championship and another Finals MVP this year it would put him above a lot of guys on this list IMO. The four championships and six finals appearances already put him above Hakeem. One of the most complete offensive players to ever play the game.
And of course he scored 81 points in a game.

8 - Tim "Mr. Fundamental" Duncan
The midrange bank shot, I love it. He is so fundamentally sound and a true professional. Four championships, just like Kobe, but three Finals MVP's and one regular season MVP. Which puts him above Bryant. Now, what has impressed me the most is that any supporting cast that the Spurs front office have created around Tim Duncan have been succesfull. Of course Timmy is not the player that he used to be, but because he has amazing fundamentals he keeps playing at a high level. I can see Bryant getting past him in the rankings later on, but for now this spot is locked.

7 - Shaquille "How many nicknames have I given myself AKA the most dominant big man of the 2000's, by far" O'Neal
During the Lakers' championship runs he was by far the most dominant player in the game. Of course Kobe played well for them, but he was by far the best player on that team and in the game. there was nobody who could stop this mad man, until; they started the Hack a Shaq. Which kind of ruined any Lakers game. He was a terrible free throw shooter. There isnt much that Shaq can do to get into the top 5. He had an amazing career and has cemented his place in the NBA legends department. First ballot hall of famer, no doubt.

The great rivalry

6 - Larry "Legend" Bird
The real Birdman, amazing stroke and a great professional. The three NBA championships, equal amount of MVP awards and his nicknames speak for itself. And did I mention his shooting stroke?

5 - Earvin "Magic" Johnson
Wow, does anyone even call him Earvin, I sure dont. He is Magic. He defined the Lake Show, he was the Lake Show. Had a great supporting cast on his way to winning 5 nba championships in a very competative era. Larry and Magic took the NBA to a whole new level after a very dissapointing era in basketball. They revived the Lakers vs. Boston rivalry and fans from either team could be found anywhere in the world. Everyone knew and loved Magic and Bird, they were the sensation to watch. Both were on the Dream Team as well.

The dominant big men before Shaq

4 - Wilt "The Stilt aka The Big Dipper" Chamberlain
The most dominant player back in the day. Without Wilt, no Shaq. They both have the same weakness, free throw shooting. It is too bad that Wilt really cared so much about his stats, he could have had way more championships. And thus taken over Bill's spot at number 3. The reason I have Shaq in the lower end of the top 10 and Wilt over here is that Wilt was more dominant. I believe that he could have been just as dominant right now with the current training methods. He was a sensational player and more versatile than Shaq. Also probably a better defender in his era. And dont forget the rebounding, definitely has a huge edge there. Plus Chamberlain defined dominant big men, Shaq was the last of these players. He didnt have the major impact on the game like Wilt. Nobody had ever seen a man like him.

3 - Bill "I Got 11 rings, f-ck you" Russell
11 rings, nuff said.

Well, why do I have him above Wilt? Because he wasnt as dominant as Wilt? Again, maybe I cant judge him fairly because just like Wilt, Jerry and Oscar I havent seen him play. Many say he was the best defender ever. But Wilt dominated the league, while Russell wasnt able to score 20 a game. Many will say, well he was the best defender. Could be, but Dikembe also was a great defender, he doesnt come near this list (no, I am not comparing Dikembe to Russell, just saying that offense is often very important to dominate a league). Yes, offensively Wilt was superior to Bill. Unfortunately nobody kept track of blocked shots back then. But still:

2 - Kareem "KAJ" Abdul-Jabbar
Best big man in my opinion. Versatile and mobile. Had amazing team success and was on the same Lake Show teams as Magic. He had a major impact on the league.

What is the first thing that comes up into your mind when you think about the sky hook?
Tell me.

I know you know.

Give me a name.

Thats right.

You cant block that sh-t.

No center ever mastered a move like KAJ mastered his hookshot.
How about his awards:
6 nba championships.
6 nba regular season mvps.
19 NBA all-star appearances. Which showed his popularity.
Most points scored in NBA history.
He had such amazing longetivity. This all combined puts him at number two in my opinion. But in the end numbers 4 to 2 can be switched because they are very close.

Michael "The G.O.A.T." Jordan
Air Jordan, showman, commercialising and globalising of the NBA. He made the world watch the NBA. He was an important part of the popularity of the Dream Team in '92. And what about those Bulls fans all over the world, do you think the would have been there without Michael. He won 6 rings without a dominant big (Scottie was amazing, no doubt) and defined the term "clutch". He was the NBA in the 90's and nobody could touch his Airness.

That's my top 12 list from a year ago (GOAT Top 100 thread).

IF Kobe does win the championship this year, wins Finals MVP and gets his 9th All-NBA First Team Selection he'd pass Timmy on the list for me. I'm still doubting if I'd put him above Shaq, looking at Shaq's pure dominance during his prime. It would depend on how he performs throughout the Playoffs.

He would not enter my top 5, but I definitely appreciate what he did for the game and in my honest opinion there is no way you can leave this man out of the Top 10.

IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-07-2011, 05:08 AM

If Kobe were to win another ring this year I would like for someone to name me 5 players that are better than him in history. If the names Russell or Bird are mentioned then don't even bother making the list. Russell won all those rings in a league with less than 15 teams. Not to mention a league with smaller players. Larry Bird is not in the conversation simply because of longevity. The guy only played 897 career games. Kobe will have played 1,400+ games when it's all said an done. There has to be something said for longevity and dominance over 15+ years.

IMO, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kareem are the only guys you can put ahead of Kobe if he were to win 6. So he is top 5-6 in my book.

winwin

03-07-2011, 05:16 AM

top 3-5

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 05:16 AM

That's my top 12 list from a year ago (GOAT Top 100 thread).

IF Kobe does win the championship this year, wins Finals MVP and gets his 9th All-NBA First Team Selection he'd pass Timmy on the list for me. I'm still doubting if I'd put him above Shaq, looking at Shaq's pure dominance during his prime. It would depend on how he performs throughout the Playoffs.

He would not enter my top 5, but I definitely appreciate what he did for the game and in my honest opinion there is no way you can leave this man out of the Top 10.

why is duncan already being givin unfair retired legend bonus double standard prestige

lol@ needing 8 finals and 6 rings to pass duncan with 3.5 finals and 3.5 rings

kobes twice the individual tallent and would have twice the accomplishments

GTFO

NY-Knicks

03-07-2011, 05:25 AM

why is duncan already being givin unfair retired legend bonus double standard prestige

lol@ needing 8 finals and 6 rings to pass duncan with 3.5 finals and 3.5 rings

kobes twice the individual tallent and would have twice the accomplishments

GTFO

Misunderstanding, that list was made a year ago. He is basically tied with Duncan on the list for me, if he wins another 'chip he'll PASS Duncan. I'm not a Kobe hater, it's just how I look at it.

griffmoney1784

03-07-2011, 05:31 AM

Misunderstanding, that list was made a year ago. He is basically tied with Duncan on the list for me, if he wins another 'chip he'll PASS Duncan. I'm not a Kobe hater, it's just how I look at it.

good thing most people dont think like you do

duncan hasnt been a top 5 player since around 2005

and since 2007 he hasnt been a top 15 player

kobe on the other hand has been atleast top 2 every year since 2001

how can a guy with a 5 year prime be as good as someone with a 10 year prime

especially he has 3 less finals, 1 less championship, half the career high and as many 40 point games as the other guy has 60 point games

OldSchoolBBall

03-07-2011, 05:38 AM

jordan, wilt and russell needed the 3rd best player in the nba

Pippen was never the third best player in the league.

ginobli2311

03-07-2011, 05:40 AM

good thing most people dont think like you do

duncan hasnt been a top 5 player since around 2005

and since 2007 he hasnt been a top 15 player

kobe on the other hand has been atleast top 2 every year since 2001

how can a guy with a 5 year prime be as good as someone with a 10 year prime

especially he has 3 less finals, 1 less championship, half the career high and as many 40 point games as the other guy has 60 point games

LOL

and this ends any legit discussion. Duncan was superior to Kobe each year from 98 to 05....its really not even debatable.

i'd take duncan all the way to 07 if i was trying to win a title over kobe.

5 year prime? what the **** are you talking about?

NY-Knicks

03-07-2011, 06:53 AM

d.bball.guy

03-07-2011, 06:58 AM

No. But he will overtake Duncan(tied @ 8/I really don't remember my real list but they're tied) in my Top 10 list. He'll be the 2nd best SG, though.

Shepseskaf

03-07-2011, 06:58 AM

He's not top 5 even if he wins another 10 rings courtesy of David Stern.
This.

What is with the stupid obsession with rings? Kobe isn't winning championships all by himself. In fact, last year you can make the point that his teammates carried him to the 'chip, rather than the other way around.

Kobe is top 15, to be sure, but the poor decision-making, the disappearances in key moments, and coming up small in many of those moments would preclude him from being top 10, in my book.

Rnbizzle

03-07-2011, 09:41 AM

PurpleChuck

03-07-2011, 09:45 AM

Scottie Pippen says hi
Shaq and Gasol says hi to Scottie, they envious he had a bonafide leader to depend on.:pimp:

Rnbizzle

03-07-2011, 09:51 AM

Shaq and Gasol says hi to Scottie, they envious he had a bonafide leader to depend on.:pimp:

Not saying MJ wasn't the clear leader on that squad but taking away all the credit from Kobe is just ignorant.. They both had/have great players playing with them, that doesn't mean you should take away what they've achieved..

IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-07-2011, 02:05 PM

Not saying MJ wasn't the clear leader on that squad but taking away all the credit from Kobe is just ignorant.. They both had/have great players playing with them, that doesn't mean you should take away what they've achieved..

Agreed. Jordan had no help from 84-88 and the Bulls got blown out in the playoffs. Kobe has had help just like MJ had help in the 90's.

stickfigure87

03-07-2011, 02:17 PM

This.

What is with the stupid obsession with rings? Kobe isn't winning championships all by himself. In fact, last year you can make the point that his teammates carried him to the 'chip, rather than the other way around.

Kobe is top 15, to be sure, but the poor decision-making, the disappearances in key moments, and coming up small in many of those moments would preclude him from being top 10, in my book.

I can never understand this argument. How did his team carry him to the chip last year? Kobe had a monsterous playoffs with by far the best stats on his team.

And no one bring up 6-24. The entire team shot ~30% from the field, so it wasn't like everyone was shooting lights out, picking up his slack.

Now personally, I don't think one more ring moves him into my top 5. Kobe's had great longevity at the top, but hasn't ever dominated the league a la Jordan, Wilt, or Russell. KAJ and Magic are up there, too.

I can also see the argument made for Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem to all be ahead of him.

I have him in the 6-9 range, even with another chip.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 02:23 PM

Honestly the difference between NBA greats is not as enormous or inconceivably immense as you guys make it out to be.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 02:36 PM

I can never understand this argument. How did his team carry him to the chip last year? Kobe had a monsterous playoffs with by far the best stats on his team.

And no one bring up 6-24. The entire team shot ~30% from the field, so it wasn't like everyone was shooting lights out, picking up his slack.

Yeah, some morons just look at his shooting performance in game 7 and will say he was carried by his team.

He hit 7/8 free throws in the 4th quarter (scored 10 points in the 4th), grabbed 15 boards, played great D, hit a huge jumper with 3 minutes left to put the Lakers up 6 and the Celtics never had a realistic chance to get back in the game after he hit that shot.

Kobe didn't have a good shooting night but nobody did that game. It was a great defensive showing from both teams, and the reason we won was because of the team play, rebounding, and making clutch plays.

Grim

03-07-2011, 02:49 PM

Kobe is already top 5. Only nerds think anything other than skill has anything to do with it.

Rnbizzle

03-07-2011, 02:54 PM

Honestly the difference between NBA greats is not as enormous or inconceivably immense as you guys make it out to be.

qft

macpierce

03-07-2011, 03:13 PM

maybe, but it definitely puts him over shaq and duncan without question, to be part of 2 3-PEATS is insane, longevity, personal career stats, and team stats, playoff games, minutes played..........ridiculous

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 03:22 PM

to be part of 2 3-PEATS is insane, longevity, personal career stats, and team stats, playoff games, minutes played..........ridiculous

Would become the leader of a 3-peat team, which is only something Russell, Jordan and Shaq have done.

Great company. :cheers:

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 03:25 PM

This.

What is with the stupid obsession with rings? Kobe isn't winning championships all by himself. In fact, last year you can make the point that his teammates carried him to the 'chip, rather than the other way around.

Kobe is top 15, to be sure, but the poor decision-making, the disappearances in key moments, and coming up small in many of those moments would preclude him from being top 10, in my book.

Game 7 2000 WCFinals says HI....Kobe led all Lakers and scored/assisted on the final 6 points in the 4th to ice the game.

2001 WCFinals (against the 2nd best team in the NBA) Kobe averaged 33ppg 7ast 7reb...(Jan 2001 the biggest Sports media outlet in the world ran a 3 page story "Kobe at 22 years old is the best player in the NBA")

2001 playoff's Kobe = 29PPG 5ast 6reb

02 playoff's - Kobe was the main weapon in crunchtime (just like the previous year) averaging over 10pts on 60%FG in the 4th quarters.

so if bieng "the man" in crunchtime and averaging 28 PPG 5ast 5reb for 2 straight Championship runs at 22 years old and 23 years old is "disappearing"...or coming up "small".....then please Kobe keep disappearing:rolleyes:

that will mean more 29PPg 5ast 5reb Championship runs:lol

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 03:34 PM

good thing most people dont think like you do

duncan hasnt been a top 5 player since around 2005

and since 2007 he hasnt been a top 15 player

kobe on the other hand has been atleast top 2 every year since 2001

how can a guy with a 5 year prime be as good as someone with a 10 year prime

especially he has 3 less finals, 1 less championship, half the career high and as many 40 point games as the other guy has 60 point games

:wtf:

Duncan was still top 5 in 2008, borderline top 10 in 2009(definitely top 15) and top 15 just last season.

And no, Kobe hasn't been top 2 every year since 2001.

2001- Top 3
2002- Top 3
2003- Top 5(you could argue he was as high as 2 or 3, though.
2004- Top 4
2005- Borderline top 10(had a down year due to injuries
2006- 1
2007- 1
2008- 1
2009- Top 3(you could argue he was top 2)
2010- Top 2
2011- Top 4 so far.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 03:51 PM

:wtf:

Duncan was still top 5 in 2008, borderline top 10 in 2009(definitely top 15) and top 15 just last season.

And no, Kobe hasn't been top 2 every year since 2001.

2001- Top 3
2002- Top 3
2003- Top 5(you could argue he was as high as 2 or 3, though.
2004- Top 4
2005- Borderline top 10(had a down year due to injuries
2006- 1
2007- 1
2008- 1
2009- Top 3(you could argue he was top 2)
2010- Top 2
2011- Top 4 so far.

Kobe could be considered a top 2 player since 2001.....

2001 - ESPN - " at 22 years old Kobe is the best player in the NBA"
2002 - top 2
2003 - Best player in the NBA
2004 - top 2
2005 - top 3
2006 - best player in the NBA
2007 - best player in the NBA
2008 - best player in the NBA
2009 - best player in the NBA
2010 - best player in the NBA
2011 - best player in the NBA

Judging off of "aclamation" and watching basketball the past 10 years ...IMO Kobe has been the best player since 2001.....again it's not just my opinion , it's been shared by the majority also....

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 03:59 PM

Kobe could be considered a top 2 player since 2001.....

2001 - ESPN - " at 22 years old Kobe is the best player in the NBA"
2002 - top 2
2003 - Best player in the NBA
2004 - top 3
2005 - top 2
2006 - best player in the NBA
2007 - best player in the NBA
2008 - best player in the NBA
2009 - best player in the NBA
2010 - best player in the NBA
2011 - best player in the NBA

Judging off of "aclamation" and watching basketball the past 10 years ...IMO Kobe has been the best player since 2001.....again it's not just my opinion , it's been shared by the majority also....

Well, you're an idiot. You can use that ESPN article like porn all you want, but it doesn't make the crap written inside true.

2001- Shaq was definitely better, I have no doubt and I feel comfortable saying Duncan was as well.
2002- Same as 2001

2003- Duncan was definitely the best player in the NBA and KG, Shaq and T-Mac were all unbelievable that year. Shaq was lazy at times, but still very dominant and much better than Kobe in the playoffs, KG carried the Wolves on his back and won more games than the Lakers did and T-Mac put up better numbers than Kobe did while having nobody to take any pressure off of him. Like I said, you could argue top 2 or top 3, but not over Duncan.

2004- Sorry, he wasn't better than any of these 3 that year(KG, Duncan and Shaq) This was one of his 2 worst seasons since he emerged as an elite player in 2001(the other being 2005)

2005- Top 2? What the hell? :roll:

2006-2008- No argument from me

2009- Definitely wasn't better than Lebron, same goes for 2010 even though Lebron quitting vs Boston hurts his season for me.

2011- No, I could see him being top 2-3 by the end of the year depending on what he does in the playoffs, but he's not the best anymore.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 04:14 PM

Well, you're an idiot. You can use that ESPN article like porn all you want, but it doesn't make the crap written inside true.

2001- Shaq was definitely better, I have no doubt and I feel comfortable saying Duncan was as well.
2002- Same as 2001

2003- Duncan was definitely the best player in the NBA and KG, Shaq and T-Mac were all unbelievable that year. Shaq was lazy, but still very dominant, KG carried the Wolves on his back and won more games than the Lakers did and T-Mac put up better numbers than Kobe did while having nobody to take any pressure off of him. Like I said, you could argue top 2 or top 3, but not over Duncan.

2004- Sorry, he wasn't better than any of these 3 that year(KG, Duncan and Shaq) This was one of his 2 worst seasons since he emerged as an elite player in 2001(the other being 2005)

2005- Top 2? What the hell? :roll:

2006-2008- No argument from me

2009- Definitely wasn't better than Lebron, same goes for 2010 even though Lebron quitting vs Boston hurts his season for me.

2011- No, I could see him being top 2-3 by the end of the year depending on what he does in the playoffs, but he's not the best anymore.

well you can call people "Idiots" all you want...still doesn't change the fact that the Biggest sports media outlet in the world picked a 22 year old as "the best player in the NBA"

so that's proof right there that it was at least debatable (or at least most fans were saying Kobe is a top 1- 2 player)

2001 - YOU feel Shaq was "better"....great....most fans felt Kobe was a better player....lots of Fans in L.A. felt Kobe was being held back playing with Shaq also. Like I said....many Claims were Kobe was the best player in the league.

2002 - same as 2001

2003 - Kobe was unbelievable also...Sports Illustrated put Kobe on the cover claiming he was putting up a scoring run for the ages.Kobe was still contending for Titles and a much better defender then TMAC...arguably Kobe's finest year in the NBA...IMO he was the best player.

2004 - top 2 - 3 player.....

2005 - his worst season IMO...but still a top 2 - 3 player

2011 - so the playoff's are your deciding factor?...great....your saying if he leads the Lakers back to the Finals and wins he might be a top 2 - 3 player?

ok....whatever?...all I'm saying is majority of fans veiw him as already the best player in the NBA or at least top 2...and it's been like that since 2001....that's reality....you dumb rock.

indiefan24

03-07-2011, 04:18 PM

Harion

03-07-2011, 04:18 PM

i think Kobe is the top 1 rapist of all time in the NBA

indiefan24

03-07-2011, 04:19 PM

i think Kobe is the top 1 rapist of all time in the NBA

mad that your ridiculous thread was deleted? :oldlol:

NY-Knicks

03-07-2011, 04:22 PM

i think Kobe is the top 1 rapist of all time in the NBA

Intelligent post, one of the better ones I've seen today.

Also, you're hilarious. :applause:

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 04:26 PM

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 04:33 PM

So because ESPN says something that means it should be accepted as the absolute truth?

NO....but it at least showed that some people were viewing Kobe as the #1 player in the NBA.

If I said "Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA in 2001" ....then you claimed I was an Idiot, for saying "Kobe was considered as a top 2 player in the NBA"....then is everyone else just a bunch of Idiots too?

Round Mound

03-07-2011, 04:34 PM

typical argument from a DUMB FAN of a guy with NO RINGs like lebron or barkley etc...

theres a thing called "teirs" jacka***ssss

- great players
- good players
- average players
- bad players

the rings for great players are compared with rings from OTHER GREAT PLAYERS ONLY

so no... horry isnt better than pippen. because horry was a role player. and pippen was an allstar.

horrys 7 rings make him the GOAT role player

pippens 6 rings make him the GOAT second banana

and a guys rings are only as valuable as his game. if a guy isnt a complete player. his rings take a hit

if russell had as complete a game as jordan. there wouldnt even be a debate for GOAT would there?

Pippen was no All Star after Jordan left 1993-94 :no: he was a Superstar :banghead:

He ended up with 4th in Player Efficiency Rating (Top 4 Impact Players in the league), Top 5-10 in Defensive Rating ( All Others Big Men) 8.7 Rebounds Per Game, 5.6 Assists, 3 Stealers Per Game and 1 Blk Per Game. Scorted 22 PPG at 49.1% FG for 55-27 Wins and to 7 games against the Knicks (lousy ref calls in favor of the Knicks). Elevating the level of Grant and others for higher FG%.

Pippen = Best Point Forward in the League with Grant Hill in the 90s.

Jordan was lucky but Kobe is even luckier

He is playing with the Best Post Skilled Big Man in the Game in Pau Gasol (The Modern McHale) and One of the Best Creators and Passing Big Man Ever with 3.5 APG. He Block shots almost 2 Per Game, over 10 RPG and 18.7 PPG at 53% FG at only 13.5 FGAs PG = Unselfish

Then you have Odom: By Far the Best Sixman in the Game, A Top All Around Player and a Great Role Player

Him and Bynum who has a high RPG 8-10 and 2 BLK for low Minutes Played.

So Bryant is playing under Phils Triangle , with 2 Dominant Big Man and way over average Role Players in Odom and Bynum. He is also playing with a Big 3: Gasol, Bynum and Odom

He plays with 3 Dudes that Average 8-9-10 RPG, High FG% (coaching and Gasol`s Unselfish Play in the Paint) and each one averaging a 1 BPG or More.

Kobe and Russel are the Most Overrated Players Ever but CLEARLY.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 04:36 PM

why waste your breath? he'll be banned sooner or later lol

Yes for believing Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA in 2001....and ESPN just happened to echo what I already knew?....

:confusedshrug:

beermonsteroo

03-07-2011, 04:36 PM

When it's all said and done Kobe will be the player with the most missed shots in history.
He'll also be the player with the biggest gap between assists and missed shots.
He'll end up as one of the very few "elite" players who have a lower career FG% then his teams during his career. Actually he's likely to be the "elite" player with the worst personal FG%/Team FG% in history.
He has also a shot at being the player with the worst 3p% for players to take more then 2.5 a game during their career.
His missed 3pa/assists ratio is among the worst in NbA history

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 04:36 PM

well you can call people "Idiots" all you want...still doesn't change the fact that the Biggest sports media outlet in the world picked a 22 year old as "the best player in the NBA"

so that's proof right there that it was at least debatable (or at least most fans were saying Kobe is a top 1- 2 player)

2001 - YOU feel Shaq was "better"....great....most fans felt Kobe was a better player....lots of Fans in L.A. felt Kobe was being held back playing with Shaq also. Like I said....many Claims were Kobe was the best player in the league.

2002 - same as 2001

It's not debatable to anyone who thinks. And the majority did not think Kobe was a better player. That's why Shaq finished higher in MVP voting both of those years, hell, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team in 2001. Oh yeah, how about the Lakers 13-3 record those 2 seasons with Shaq and without Kobe, reverse the situation and the Lakers were just 12-11, no, it's not debatable, moron.

2003 - Kobe was unbelievable also...Sports Illustrated put Kobe on the cover claiming he was putting up a scoring run for the ages.Kobe was still contending for Titles and a much better defender then TMAC...arguably Kobe's finest year in the NBA...IMO he was the best player.

Kobe had at least 3 better seasons himself('06-'08) and contending for titles? What does that mean when he played with a 28/11/3/2, 57 FG% big man compared to the garbage T-Mac played with. Add to that the fact that they didn't achieve any great team success anyway, they finished at 50-32 and lost in the 2nd round.

Kobe did play like the best player in the league midseason when he went on that insane 40 point streak, but for the whole season, T-Mac put up 32/7/6, 46 FG%, 56 TS% vs Kobe's 30/7/6, 45 FG%, 55 TS% and nobody on T-Mac's team to make opposing team's think twice about focusing primarily on him throughout the entire game.

But at the end of the season after the playoffs, it was clearly Duncan's year. Duncan had won a well-deserved MVP in the regular season, and had raised his game in the playoffs to win a title with 3 consecutive dominant series vs LA, Dallas and New Jersey.

2004 - top 2 - 3 player.....

:oldlol:

2005 - his worst season IMO...but still a top 2 - 3 player

:roll:

2011 - so the playoff's are your deciding factor?...great....your saying if he leads the Lakers back to the Finals and wins he might be a top 2 - 3 player?

It depends on his performance vs what Lebron, Dwight and Wade do in the playoffs, not necessarily the final result.

ok....whatever?...all I'm saying is majority of fans veiw him as already the best player in the NBA or at least top 2...and it's been like that since 2001....that's reality....you dumb rock.

You do remember when Shaq was getting MVP chants in Staples center, right?

And who cares what the fans think? The average fan is an idiot, aren't you the same guy who goes on about how the media has made fans think Jordan is greater than he really is? If most fans have that little knowledge to be swayed so easily by the media, then how does that back up your argument here?

As far as the majority? Well, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team and all-nba third team in 2001 and 2005, respectively, so apparently people around the league didn't feel like you do.

2000-2002 for the most part was considered Shaq's time, 2006-2008 was Kobe's for the most part and 2009 and 2010 were pretty much Kobe vs Lebron. 2003-2005 weren't really considered anyone's because even though Duncan was the best in the league during that stretch, he never got the same media hype as Shaq, Kobe or Lebron so he was never really the face of the league.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 04:44 PM

NO....but it at least showed that some people were viewing Kobe as the #1 player in the NBA.

If I said "Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA in 2001" ....then you claimed I was an Idiot, for saying "Kobe was considered as a top 2 player in the NBA"....then is everyone else just a bunch of Idiots too?

I would agree that he was the best perimeter/wing player back then and if you factor in the playoffs, he was arguably the 2nd best overall player that year, but anyone who really followed basketball back then knows how unstoppable and dominant Shaq was, and he was regarded as the best player in the NBA during that time. Along with with pretty much all the evidence suggesting that Shaq was the best player in the league.

Doesn't take anything aways from Kobe at all, just says how great Shaq was.

Just because an analyst says something doesn't mean you should let it influence your opinion.

M.Bustly15A5RU8

03-07-2011, 04:51 PM

It's not debatable to anyone who thinks. And the majority did not think Kobe was a better player. That's why Shaq finished higher in MVP voting both of those years, hell, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team in 2001. Oh yeah, how about the Lakers 13-3 record those 2 seasons with Shaq and without Kobe, reverse the situation and the Lakers were just 12-11, no, it's not debatable, moron.

Kobe had at least 3 better seasons himself('06-'08) and contending for titles? What does that mean when he played with a 28/11/3/2, 57 FG% big man compared to the garbage T-Mac played with. Add to that the fact that they didn't achieve any great team success anyway, they finished at 50-32 and lost in the 2nd round.

Kobe did play like the best player in the league midseason when he went on that insane 40 point streak, but for the whole season, T-Mac put up 32/7/6, 46 FG%, 56 TS% vs Kobe's 30/7/6, 45 FG%, 55 TS% and nobody on T-Mac's team to make opposing team's think twice about focusing primarily on him throughout the entire game.

But at the end of the season after the playoffs, it was clearly Duncan's year. Duncan had won a well-deserved MVP in the regular season, and had raised his game in the playoffs to win a title with 3 consecutive dominant series vs LA, Dallas and New Jersey.

:oldlol:

:roll:

It depends on his performance vs what Lebron, Dwight and Wade do in the playoffs, not necessarily the final result.

You do remember when Shaq was getting MVP chants in Staples center, right?

And who cares what the fans think? The average fan is an idiot, aren't you the same guy who goes on about how the media has made fans think Jordan is greater than he really is? If most fans have that little knowledge to be swayed so easily by the media, then how does that back up your argument here?

As far as the majority? Well, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team and all-nba third team in 2001 and 2005, respectively, so apparently people around the league didn't feel like you do.

2000-2002 for the most part was considered Shaq's time, 2006-2008 was Kobe's for the most part and 2009 and 2010 were pretty much Kobe vs Lebron. 2003-2005 weren't really considered anyone's because even though Duncan was the best in the league during that stretch, he never got the same media hype as Shaq, Kobe or Lebron so he was never really the face of the league.

It's best to just ignore AlphaWolf. Trust me. He's the biggest Kobe slurper on the www.

Eat Like A Bosh

03-07-2011, 05:14 PM

Round Mound

03-07-2011, 05:35 PM

Here's a BS ranking:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

I think Kobe is already in the top 10.

With #6 and a last season Phoenix Suns series unreal performance, Kobe would definitely move up, and go as high as 6, maybe just reaches 5.

He definitely moves above both Shaq and Duncan, possibly above Big O, Olajuwon.

After #6 he may or may not get in top 5, depends on how he performs. But the one thing for sure, is that Kobe will be officially on everybody's top 10 list, even the most biased Kobe haters.

Barkley again as clear Top 10 Player Ever in Ws/Ls over Robinson yet the hate against him is still felt, that is why Robinson is above.

There is no player i can remember as Dominant in the PF position: yet he played nobodies from 1987 to 1992 having the highest Winning % Per Level of Teamate.

thejumpa

03-07-2011, 05:45 PM

Once again, even if Kobe never wins another title in his career, he will still be a top 5 player. 1 more title will do nothing but bring on strong MJ comparisons. He doesn't need it to be a top 5 player though. Hell no. When he retires in 4 years with 5 titles and every other record out there, I dare someone to say he isn't better than some of the guys people are proclaiming as the top 5 players ever.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 05:46 PM

ShaqAttack3234]It's not debatable to anyone who thinks. And the majority did not think Kobe was a better player. That's why Shaq finished higher in MVP voting both of those years, hell, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team in 2001. Oh yeah, how about the Lakers 13-3 record those 2 seasons with Shaq and without Kobe, reverse the situation and the Lakers were just 12-11, no, it's not debatable, moron.

It absolutely was debatable..That's why Kobe was bieng called the best player in the NBA by the biggest sports media outlet...MVP balloting IMO has no bearing on who the best player in the NBA is.It is debatable...and was bieng debated...there was always division who's team it was and who was the better player......that's why they clashed....because it did happen.

Kobe had at least 3 better seasons himself('06-'08) and contending for titles? What does that mean when he played with a 28/11/3/2, 57 FG% big man compared to the garbage T-Mac played with. Add to that the fact that they didn't achieve any great team success anyway, they finished at 50-32 and lost in the 2nd round.

Kobe did play like the best player in the league midseason when he went on that insane 40 point streak, but for the whole season, T-Mac put up 32/7/6, 46 FG%, 56 TS% vs Kobe's 30/7/6, 45 FG%, 55 TS% and nobody on T-Mac's team to make opposing team's think twice about focusing primarily on him throughout the entire game.

But at the end of the season after the playoffs, it was clearly Duncan's year. Duncan had won a well-deserved MVP in the regular season, and had raised his game in the playoffs to win a title with 3 consecutive dominant series vs LA, Dallas and New Jersey.

TMac has played with Great Centers also and never had success like Kobe...Kobe has played without Great Centers and put up better numbers to go along with better winning% then TMAC..so your argument holds No weight. Basically your trying to slight Kobe because he played with Shaq...and prop up Tmac's game(Notorious losing teams) even though he was Losing...it's silly. Kobe was a better allaround player then Duncan and helped his team win more then Tmac...like I said earlier he was a top 2 player in the NBA....and #1 in allstar votes also.

You do remember when Shaq was getting MVP chants in Staples center, right?

And who cares what the fans think? The average fan is an idiot, aren't you the same guy who goes on about how the media has made fans think Jordan is greater than he really is? If most fans have that little knowledge to be swayed so easily by the media, then how does that back up your argument here?

NO...I've said that to prove a point to hardcore elitest fan....that if Jordan can leapfrog other great players based on "Aclamation" only ...then why couldn't Kobe do the same?

The majority aren't idiots.....the minority(hardcore elitist fan) trying to slight modern players based on flawed systems are.

As far as the majority? Well, Kobe was only on the all-nba second team and all-nba third team in 2001 and 2005, respectively, so apparently people around the league didn't feel like you do.

in 2001?..sure they did...First Team all defense and 2nd team all NBA (behind A.I)....again, Kobe was absolutely being debated as the best player in the NBA in 2001

05?...he went from bieng 1st team all nba and 1st team all defense in 04' to bieng 3rd behind Ray Allen?...I personally don't think so...I think he was still top 2- 3 players in the NBA.

Kobe has made all NBA First team and all NBA first team defense at the same time 6 times in 10 years.....Shaq never did that his whole career....so most people also agree Kobe has been better then Shaq the majority of the decade also.

2000-2002 for the most part was considered Shaq's time, 2006-2008 was Kobe's for the most part and 2009 and 2010 were pretty much Kobe vs Lebron. 2003-2005 weren't really considered anyone's because even though Duncan was the best in the league during that stretch, he never got the same media hype as Shaq, Kobe or Lebron so he was never really the face of the league.

wrong again.....like I showed you in another thread...2001 was Kobe's "time" as much as Shaq's...

Kobe was being called the best player in the NBA by the biggest sports outlet....It was being debated on who's team it was and stoked the flame that ended up causing the feud and break up.

2001 IMO was the start of a 10 year run as the premiere player in the NBA...

most fans would echo...Kobe is the best player of the 2000's....

you need to recognize game when it's in your face.....son.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 05:51 PM

I would agree that he was the best perimeter/wing player back then and if you factor in the playoffs, he was arguably the 2nd best overall player that year, but anyone who really followed basketball back then knows how unstoppable and dominant Shaq was, and he was regarded as the best player in the NBA during that time. Along with with pretty much all the evidence suggesting that Shaq was the best player in the league.

Doesn't take anything aways from Kobe at all, just says how great Shaq was.

Just because an analyst says something doesn't mean you should let it influence your opinion.

It didn't influence my opinion...I knew Kobe was a better player then ....and now. Kobe's skillset is more valuable , being able to finish games in Crunchtime....and attack anywhere on the court.

There is no mystery why Kobe is playing top shelf basketball and going for another 3 peat....he is the better player.

I , along with most fans feel that way.

Optimus Prime

03-07-2011, 05:57 PM

Lotta Ifs in this thread. If they Three Peat? They will.

If they Three Peat, is Kobe Top 5? He might already be there, winning ring #6 would push him just below Jordan. Kobe will probably take #6 on the all-time scoring list this year, and he ain't even close to done yet. If his health keeps steady like it is (with a slight decline every year), he has a good shot at top 3 on the list and a realistic (thought outside) shot at #1.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 06:22 PM

Kobe was being called the best player in the NBA by the biggest sports outlet....It was being debated on who's team it was and stoked the flame that ended up causing the feud and break up.

The same ESPN that claimed Kobe was already better than Jordan (or that dumb broad who wrote the article). The same "sports outlet" that had a poll with Kobe being the third greatest player of-all time. Don't ever quote that hype machine again.

Shaq won all 3 Final Mvps. Kobe was a sidekick. He even says so himself. :oldlol:

Kobe is 333-808 .410% in 37 career finals games
Shaq is 340-565 .602% in 30 career finals games

Kobe 333 makes, 475 misses
Shaq 340 makes, 225 misses

DixieNourmous

03-07-2011, 06:25 PM

DixieNourmous

03-07-2011, 06:31 PM

In the past 3 years, Kobe has 2 champoinships (w/team)
2 finals MVP`s
1 asg MVP

Who in the NBA has more in the past 3 years?

Only a troll would work so hard to discredit this.
If you are a true basketball fan, you wouldnt even try.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 06:34 PM

The same ESPN that claimed Kobe was already better than Jordan (or that dumb broad who wrote the article). The same "sports outlet" that had a poll with Kobe being the third greatest player of-all time. Don't ever quote that hype machine again.

Shaq won all 3 Final Mvps. Kobe was a sidekick. He even says so himself. :oldlol:

Kobe is 333-808 .410% in 37 career finals games
Shaq is 340-565 .602% in 30 career finals games

Kobe 333 makes, 475 misses
Shaq 340 makes, 225 misses

I was referencing ESPN claims that Kobe was the best player to point out how most fans viewed Kobe in 2001. It was bieng debated who was better and who's team it was.

"SideKick"...yes...he told Phil Jackson he (Kobe) was tired of trying to incorporate Shaq in the offense for the first 3 quarters...then expected to just take over the 4th quarters.

again Kobe was the main weapon in the 4th during the First 3peat...He wanted to be in attack mode the whole game and worked on his game in the 00' offseason to become better......Shaq did not.

Kobe did'nt want to be used as just a closer like he was in 00'.....he wanted to be the main weapon the whole game.

that's what he explained he meant by "sidekick"...

Kobe has played in more Finals and won more...what's your point?

drew222

03-07-2011, 06:34 PM

for the 1st championship he was the sidekick clearly but the other 01,02 championships they were 1a 1b you guys tend to forget that kobe had the ball in the fourth quater to make the clutch plays exp:(2002 game 3 finals) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tCu_mKUx8 also sometimes they took shaq out in the fourth because he couldn't make free throws. kobes has his mistakes but shaq not making free throws was also crucial they needed each other

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 06:41 PM

I was referencing ESPN claims that Kobe was the best player to point out how most fans viewed Kobe in 2001. It was bieng debated who was better and who's team it was.

No one cares about ESPN's claims. They called Kobe better than Jordan in 2007.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba

It's not debatable. The numbers don't lie. Shaq's numbers were better. This is why he's the one with 3 Finals Mvps.

"SideKick"...yes...he told Phil Jackson he (Kobe) was tired of trying to incorporate Shaq in the offense for the first 3 quarters...then expected to just take over the 4th quarters.

He didn't take over all 4th quarters. That's a myth. Regardless you can't ignore the first 3 quarters and Shaq's production in them. Without those numbers the Lakers would be down and out.

When Shaq didn't play the Lakers were 12-11 .521%
When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 .780%

Kobe = sidekick

DixieNourmous

03-07-2011, 06:49 PM

No one cares about ESPN's claims. They called Kobe better than Jordan in 2007.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba

It's not debatable. The numbers don't lie. Shaq's numbers were better. This is why he's the one with 3 Finals Mvps.

He didn't take over all 4th quarters. That's a myth. Regardless you can't ignore the first 3 quarters and Shaq's production in them. Without those numbers the Lakers would be down and out.

When Shaq didn't play the Lakers were 12-11 .521%
When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 .780%

Kobe = sidekick
If you actually read the article,, Kobe was made to be Shaqs facilitator for the first 3 quarters.

You conveniently disregarded Kobe`s contribution and twist things to match your trolling ways.

Haters gonna Hate. you cant win and never will

kuniva_dAMiGhTy = epic troll

Stuckey

03-07-2011, 06:51 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 06:51 PM

If you actually read the article,, Kobe was made to be Shaqs facilitator for the first 3 quarters.

Shaq could score on his own. His numbers rape Kobe's (no pun intended :oldlol:)

Grim

03-07-2011, 06:51 PM

DixieNourmous

03-07-2011, 06:53 PM

Shaq could score on his own. His numbers rape Kobe's (no pun intended :oldlol:)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/482/kobetears.jpg

Calabis

03-07-2011, 06:54 PM

If you actually read the article,, Kobe was made to be Shaqs facilitator for the first 3 quarters.

You conveniently disregarded Kobe`s contribution and twist things to match your trolling ways.

Haters gonna Hate. you cant win and never will

LMAO...you acting like a Hill article is fact???? GTFOH....this ***** didn't even witness Jordan play, yet she is making outrageous claims, Kobe's not better than Magic as far as on court impact, yet now he's GOAT according to this dumbass.....If he was so dominant in the 4th quarter during those runs like you claim, wouldn't he have a legendary series by now??

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 06:58 PM

LMAO...you acting like a Hill article is fact???? GTFOH....this ***** didn't even witness Jordan play, yet she is making outrageous claims, Kobe's not better than Magic as far as on court impact, yet now he's GOAT according to this dumbass.....If he was so dominant in the 4th quarter during those runs like you claim, wouldn't he have a legendary series by now??

Of course all that lunatic got out of it was "Kobe facilitated Shaq."

That entire article is why these clowns quoting ESPN aren't taken seriously

DixieNourmous

03-07-2011, 06:59 PM

LMAO...you acting like a Hill article is fact???? GTFOH....this ***** didn't even witness Jordan play, yet she is making outrageous claims, Kobe's not better than Magic as far as on court impact, yet now he's GOAT according to this dumbass.....If he was so dominant in the 4th quarter during those runs like you claim, wouldn't he have a legendary series by now??

Wtf?

and where did Magic come into this? :lol

you haters are crying inside :roll:

gotta love it:applause:

Calabis

03-07-2011, 06:59 PM

lol @ nerds mentioning accomplishments

um... who gives a ****

this isn't "top 10 best careers"

it's who is the most skilled ever...

Kobe is a better basketball player than baylor, bird and all these ****** yall put in front of him lmaoooo

Wait a minute, I'm confused...if someone mentioned Lebron being better than Kobe, you would refer to his career winnings of 5 rings,....so now its about skills......come one Kobestans, you guys are getting more delusional by the minute......and Baylor was just as good/better for his time

Rnbizzle

03-07-2011, 07:01 PM

Wait a minute, I'm confused...if someone mentioned Lebron being better than Kobe, you would refer to his career winnings of 5 rings,....so now its about skills......come one Kobestans, you guys are getting more delusional by the minute......and Baylor was just as good/better for his time

This is such a useless statement though..

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 07:01 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy]No one cares about ESPN's claims. They called Kobe better than Jordan in 2007.

It's not debatable. The numbers don't lie. Shaq's numbers were better. This is why he's the one with 3 Finals Mvps.

2001 - Kobe averaged 10.5 ppg on 62% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 6.5 ppg on 32%....and he clearly was their best player against the best team.Kobe - 33ppg 7ast 7reb vs the Spurs (Shaq said Kobe was the best allaround player in the NBA after the series was finished)

again..Shaq even said Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001

4th quarters for the 01 - 02 playoff's combined...Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs ... Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs

number don't lie..Kobe was the "man" in crunchtime...

and from 01 - 02 he roughly averaged 28PPG 5ast 5reb in the playoff's....in 2001 was called the best player in the NBA

even with "Shaq's 3 Finals MVP's" it was debated who the better player was.....why?..well look at the "numbers"..Kobe was MORE VALUABLE in the most important part of the game.

He didn't take over all 4th quarters. That's a myth. Regardless you can't ignore the first 3 quarters and Shaq's production in them. Without those numbers the Lakers would be down and out.

When Shaq didn't play the Lakers were 12-11 .521%
When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 .780%

Kobe has been to 3 straight Finals without Playing with Shaq ....Shaq has'nt sniffed a 3 peat without Kobe.

Kobe was the #1 option in crunchtime playing with Shaq...and just as valuable.

Kobe = sidekick

when you have the skillset to be your teams First option in the 4th quarter....and then go to 3 straight NBA Finals to go along with bieng called the best player in the NBA at 22 years old.....

that's not a sidekick.....SideKick is the player getting traded away to 6 teams.

Calabis

03-07-2011, 07:01 PM

Wtf?

and where did Magic come into this? :lol

you haters are crying inside :roll:

gotta love it:applause:

Isn't this thread about him being top 5???? He's not better than Magic, which means he sure the hell ain't in "most people with some damn sense" top 5

thejumpa

03-07-2011, 07:04 PM

Isn't this thread about him being top 5???? He's not better than Magic, which means he sure the hell ain't in "most people with some damn sense" top 5

IDK man....he's done as much as Magic has, has rings to back it up, and rivals anyone in NBA history in terms of skill-sets and levels. I wouldn't say he's better as of right now, but I think by the time he retires, most people will say he's better. Especially the younger generation who never even watched Magic play.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:08 PM

2001 - Kobe averaged 10.5 ppg on 62% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 6.5 ppg on 32%....and he clearly was their best player against the best team.Kobe - 33ppg 7ast 7reb vs the Spurs (Shaq said Kobe was the best allaround player in the NBA after the series was finished)

Source? Shaq was far more consistent (hence the Final Mvps). Kobe beat up on who? Avery Johnson and Antonio Daniels? Get real.

the Lakers had a regular-season record of 12-11 with Shaq being injured
when Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7

Pau Gasol Vs Kobe Bryant in the 2009-2010 NBA Season:

Regular Season:

Gasol: 18.3 ppg SHOOTING AT 54% , GRABBING 11.3 rpg, 1.70 bpg, 3.40 apg
Kobe: 27 ppg , SHOOTING A 45.6%, GRABBING 5.4 rpg, 1.6 spg, 5.0 apg

Player Efficiency Rating (Top 20):

8. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.9
13. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.9

Offensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 6.8

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!

Defensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.0

WinShares (Top 20):

7. Pau Gasol-LAL 11.0

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!!

Kobe still arguably sidekicking right now, currently.

Calabis

03-07-2011, 07:10 PM

This is such a useless statement though..

How is it useless moron, Baylor was a special player that was transcending for the game during his time. He was doing things no one else was doing, he was doing shit in the air, no one else was thinking about at that time. Kobe is just a less effective version of MJ, a copycat, we have seen everything he does. I laugh at people who look at old videos and talk about skills....it takes alot more skill to be original for your time, rather than "90% of what you do" from a previous player

Here go learn something (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/11/original-old-school-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth/)

[I]Elgin Baylor was the originator of the fly game. What Bob Cousy did on the ground, Baylor did in the air. Before Hawkins, Erving, David Thompson or Jordan, there was Elgin. Relying on nothing but

Calabis

03-07-2011, 07:11 PM

Source? Shaq was far more consistent (hence the Final Mvps). Kobe beat up on who? Avery Johnson and Antonio Daniels? Get real.

the Lakers had a regular-season record of 12-11 with Shaq being injured
when Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7

Pau Gasol Vs Kobe Bryant in the 2009-2010 NBA Season:

Regular Season:

Gasol: 18.3 ppg SHOOTING AT 54% , GRABBING 11.3 rpg, 1.70 bpg, 3.40 apg
Kobe: 27 ppg , SHOOTING A 45.6%, GRABBING 5.4 rpg, 1.6 spg, 5.0 apg

Player Efficiency Rating (Top 20):

8. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.9
13. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.9

Offensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 6.8

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!

Defensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.0

WinShares (Top 20):

7. Pau Gasol-LAL 11.0

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!!

Kobe still arguably sidekicking right now, currently.

:applause: :roll:

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:12 PM

:oldlol: @ bringing up win shares/PER.

According to win shares Kobe > Shaq during the 2001 playoffs.

Jailblazers7

03-07-2011, 07:12 PM

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
KAJ
Hakeem/Magic/Bird/Shaq (this spot will change often)

I don't think I could move him into my top 5 even if he won another 'ship. He would probably move up a few spots to like 7th or something.

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 07:14 PM

It absolutely was debatable..That's why Kobe was bieng called the best player in the NBA by the biggest sports media outlet...MVP balloting IMO has no bearing on who the best player in the NBA is.It is debatable...and was bieng debated...there was always division who's team it was and who was the better player......that's why they clashed....because it did happen.

They clashed because Kobe tried to take over too early. Remember Phil saying he'd bench Kobe if they had more quickness defensively in the 2000-2001 season? Remember Phil saying Shaq was the first option? You're a ****ing moron.

MVP balloting doesn't mean that much, but it means a lot more than what the average fan thinks, same with all-nba teams which are voted on by coaches.

Kobe was top 3 that year, and the second best player in the playoffs, but no higher. Get over it.

TMac has played with Great Centers also and never had success like Kobe...Kobe has played without Great Centers and put up better numbers to go along with better winning% then TMAC..so your argument holds No weight. Basically your trying to slight Kobe because he played with Shaq...and prop up Tmac's game(Notorious losing teams) even though he was Losing...it's silly. Kobe was a better allaround player then Duncan and helped his team win more then Tmac...like I said earlier he was a top 2 player in the NBA....and #1 in allstar votes also.

I'm not trying to slight anyone, I called Kobe the best in the game from '06-'08.

And T-Mac didn't play with a great center in 2003, so how is that relevant to who was better in 2003? Rockets T-Mac wasn't 2003 T-Mac and Yao wasn't Shaq either.

Kobe didn't help his team more than T-Mac in 2003 either. Kobe didn't play with 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, 300+ pound Shawn Kemp, Gordan Giricek, Andrew DeClercq, Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity and Jacque Vaughn that year. Yet T-Mac still put up better numbers on better shooting efficiency while turning the ball over less. T-Mac's 2003 cast was probably the worst cast any superstar got into the playoffs in the 2000s.

I'm not comparing their careers, I'm comparing their 2003 seasons alone.

And if you want to call Kobe top 2 that year, I'm fine with that, it's debatable, but no way in hell was he better than Duncan in 2003.

in 2001?..sure they did...First Team all defense and 2nd team all NBA (behind A.I)....again, Kobe was absolutely being debated as the best player in the NBA in 2001

Actually he was on the all-defensive second team and all-nba second team. So no, the majority didn't think he was the best in the league since he didn't finish high in MVP voting either.

05?...he went from bieng 1st team all nba and 1st team all defense in 04' to bieng 3rd behind Ray Allen?...I personally don't think so...I think he was still top 2- 3 players in the NBA.

Of course you do. :oldlol: Kobe could sit out an entire season and you'd still give him MVP.

Kobe has made all NBA First team and all NBA first team defense at the same time 6 times in 10 years.....Shaq never did that his whole career....so most people also agree Kobe has been better then Shaq the majority of the decade also.

:oldlol: at comparing all-defensive teams between a guard and a center when there is 2 spots for guards on all-defensive teams and one for a center, and most DPOY winners are centers.

2001 IMO was the start of a 10 year run as the premiere player in the NBA...

:roll: :oldlol: :roll:

most fans would echo...Kobe is the best player of the 2000's....

That's fine, you can make that case when taking the entire decade(2000-2009) into consideration.

you need to recognize game when it's in your face.....son.

Son? :oldlol: at this punk. Like in the other thread, I'm done trying to talk sense into you, it can't be done.

It's best to just ignore AlphaWolf. Trust me. He's the biggest Kobe slurper on the www.

I'm quickly finding that out.

chazzy

03-07-2011, 07:15 PM

Pau Gasol Vs Kobe Bryant in the 2009-2010 NBA Season:

Regular Season:

Gasol: 18.3 ppg SHOOTING AT 54% , GRABBING 11.3 rpg, 1.70 bpg, 3.40 apg
Kobe: 27 ppg , SHOOTING A 45.6%, GRABBING 5.4 rpg, 1.6 spg, 5.0 apg

Player Efficiency Rating (Top 20):

8. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.9
13. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.9

Offensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 6.8

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!

Defensive Win Shares (Top 20):

15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.0

WinShares (Top 20):

7. Pau Gasol-LAL 11.0

Kobe: NOT ON THE LIST!!

Kobe still arguably sidekicking right now, currently.
Do you know what winshares are? Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in the 01 playoffs, so uhh not sure if you'd want to use that stat to fit your agenda :oldlol:. And PER says Kevin Love is as good as Wade and the 4th best player in the league...

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:15 PM

:oldlol: @ bringing up win shares/PER.

According to win shares Kobe > Shaq during the 2001 playoffs.

Shaq had him beat in both the regular season and Finals. Kobe had the luxuary of facing an over the hill Pippen, Antonio No D Daniels, Avery Johnson, Eric Snow, and Doug Christie YET still only beat Shaq by .01 in WinShares. :oldlol:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:17 PM

Do you know what winshares are? Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in the 01 playoffs, so uhh not sure if you'd want to use that stat to fit your agenda :oldlol:. And PER says Kevin Love is as good as Wade and the 4th best player in the league...

That's why I listed both PER, WS, and their production. Only an idiot would go by one statistic.

chazzy

03-07-2011, 07:19 PM

That's why I listed both PER, WS, and their production. Only an idiot would go by one statistic.
And only an idiot with an agenda would really think Pau>Kobe

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:20 PM

And only an idiot with an agenda would really think Pau>Kobe

Jeez, someones sensitive.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:27 PM

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:28 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:31 PM

Just ignore Alpha Wolf and Kunvia/Calabis.

An illogical Kobe stan and two Kobe hating nut jobs. It's not possible for psychopaths like them with an agenda to look at him objectively, so their opinions on him are shit on the bottom of a shoe.

Didn't you have Kobe as Jesus in your avatar just a week ago? :roll:

Pau "Soft" Gasol vs Tim "The Greatest PF ever" Duncan: Gasol = 21 pts 6 rbs 5 assists 1 stl 1 blk and shot 7-12. Duncan = 2 pts 7 rbs 2 assists 0 stl 0 blk.....shot 1-7. Maybe Gasol would have had more rebounds if Bynum didnt have 17. Kobe keeps on sidekicking to the brick wall of gasol and others :oldlol:.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:36 PM

Didn't you have Kobe as Jesus in your avatar just a week ago? :roll:

Pau "Soft" Gasol vs Tim "The Greatest PF ever" Duncan: Gasol = 21 pts 6 rbs 5 assists 1 stl 1 blk and shot 7-12. Duncan = 2 pts 7 rbs 2 assists 0 stl 0 blk.....shot 1-7. Maybe Gasol would have had more rebounds if Bynum didnt have 17. Kobe keeps on sidekicking to the brick wall of gasol and others :oldlol:.

Yeah.....your partially retarded.

Not even gonna waste my time arguing with an obvious troll with an agenda, who just uses selective statistics and no context or understanding of the game to justify his opinions.

Calabis

03-07-2011, 07:42 PM

Just ignore Alpha Wolf and Kunvia/Calabis.

An illogical Kobe stan and two Kobe hating nut jobs. It's not possible for psychopaths like them with an agenda to look at him objectively, so their opinions on him are shit on the bottom of a shoe.

Kobe hating, why because I don't think Kobe is top 5 or the Messiah??? Or is it because I don't start 30 threads a day Kobe is the best "insert here"

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/calabis/1297100722_picsay-1297100722-1.jpg

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:43 PM

Yeah.....your partially retarded.

Not even gonna waste my time arguing with an obvious troll with an agenda, who just uses selective statistics and no context or understanding of the game to justify his opinions.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5425850&postcount=16

Kobe Bean Bryant is truly God manifested in the flesh.

Timothy 3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness (Black Mamba): God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit (Game Spirit), seen of the angles, preached unto the Gentiles (amazed fans), believed on in the world (that he's the greatest), received up into glory (Legendary).

Proof of Kobe being Jesus Christ:

- The '97 dunk contest (walking on water)

-The Ability to Create His on plays (The Creator)

-Has the money to buy the best health care (healing the sick)

- Countless game winning shots and clutch performances (Performed miracles)

- 5 championship rings (The Cross)

-His teammates (The Disciples)

- Shaquille left the Lakers & betrayed Kobe (Judas)

- Was falsely accused of crimes and was crucified by the media because of Kate Faber (The Romans crucified Jesus with false charges)

- His pregame rituals (This is My Body...This is My Blood, Do this in remembrance of me)

-Billions of fans, treated like a king in China, most popular athlete in North America (His Saints)

-Ne 1, NoName, griffmoney, Waldus etc. (His preachers)

- Phil Jackson's play book (The Bible)

-Staples Center (Place of worship)

:roll:

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:43 PM

It didn't influence my opinion...I knew Kobe was a better player then ....and now. Kobe's skillset is more valuable , being able to finish games in Crunchtime....and attack anywhere on the court.

There is no mystery why Kobe is playing top shelf basketball and going for another 3 peat....he is the better player.

I , along with most fans feel that way.

Just curious? Honest question, what are your thought processes whenever you decide debate basketball. Where do you gather your information from? How do you construct your thoughts? Do you read any dissenting views on the subject? Do you do any critical thinking?

I really want to know.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:44 PM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5425850&postcount=16

:roll:

Do you honest think we are serious with the whole Kobe=God stuff?

It's just a joke/satire from sohh.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:49 PM

Do you honest think we are serious with the whole Kobe=God stuff?

It's just a joke/satire from sohh.

Yeah, riiiiight. Why should I believe anything a Kobe stalker says?

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=4967651&postcount=88

''Kobe is the best all around player that I have ever coached'' - Phil Jackson during the 2001 playoffs

So that's what Phil Jackson said? Not taken out of context whatsoever, right?

:oldlol: damn you're too easy, kid.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:53 PM

Kobe hating, why because I don't think Kobe is top 5 or the Messiah??? Or is because I don't start 30 threads a day Kobe is the best "insert here"

No, because your always in every Kobe related thread with no purpose other than trying to bash and diminish him.

Has nothing to do with having him in your top 5, I don't have him in my top 5. It's that that your a psychotic nut case that does nothing but spew garbage about a player trying to marginalize him for whatever reason, mostly likely because your an insecure hater.

Ne 1

03-07-2011, 07:55 PM

Yeah, riiiiight. Why should I believe anything a Kobe stalker says?

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=4967651&postcount=88

So that's what Phil Jackson said? Not taken out of context whatsoever, right?

:oldlol: damn you're too easy, kid.

He did say that.

Doesn't mean what Phil says should be taken as gospel. He also said Rodman is the greatest athlete that he ever coached.

Phil says a lot of stuff, doesn't mean we should take what whatever he says as the absolute, irrefutable truth.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 07:56 PM

He did say that.

He did say that, but what did he say following that sentence?

Come on, Ne 1. Don't bitch out now.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 08:01 PM

ShaqAttack3234]They clashed because Kobe tried to take over too early. Remember Phil saying he'd bench Kobe if they had more quickness defensively in the 2000-2001 season? Remember Phil saying Shaq was the first option? You're a ****ing moron.

They clashed for a variety of reasons....but mainly because Shaq was butthurt Kobe was getting so much praise at a young age...and Kobe wanted to be the main weapon the whole game...not just the 4th.

and if you want to throw Phil Jackson quotes around.."Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" - 2001 after Kobe help lead the Lakers past the Spurs

you freaken DIRT HAMPSTER!...now you are hear saying Kobe was'nt playing top shelf basketball and bieng called the best in the league? (insert smiley face)...

MVP balloting doesn't mean that much, but it means a lot more than what the average fan thinks, same with all-nba teams which are voted on by coaches.

Kobe was top 3 that year, and the second best player in the playoffs, but no higher. Get over it.

...NO.....I don't think it means more then the average fan at all....Kobe was the best allaround player in 2001....you need to recognize game.

I'm not trying to slight anyone, I called Kobe the best in the game from '06-'08.

And if you want to call Kobe top 2 that year, I'm fine with that, it's debatable, but no way in hell was he better than Duncan in 2003.

yes that's the whole point....he was top 2 ....

Actually he was on the all-defensive second team and all-nba second team. So no, the majority didn't think he was the best in the league since he didn't finish high in MVP voting either.

how does "MVP" have any bearing on the best player?..you just said you are gonna wait and judge Kobe's playoff performance this year to see how he places ?...

Kobe in 2001 was arguably the best post season player in the NBA...his coach called him the best allaround player and Shaq called him the best player in the NBA. Jan. 2001 he was called the best player in the NBA by you know....now you are gonna say he was'nt considered the best(by many) because A.I. got more Votes?...the player that Kobe guarded and beat in the NBA Finals.....you are trippin.

Of course you do. :oldlol: Kobe could sit out an entire season and you'd still give him MVP.

I'm just saying how it was....and how the majority see's it. You can put as many smiley faces as you want and call people names....still does'nt change the fact Kobe was bieng regarded as the best player in the NBA at 22.

:oldlol: at comparing all-defensive teams between a guard and a center when there is 2 spots for guards on all-defensive teams and one for a center, and most DPOY winners are centers.

Shaq couldn't beat out Mutumbo or Camby for DPOY?...oh that's right...when the dog does'nt get fed he won't play defense...or something?

That's fine, you can make that case when taking the entire decade(2000-2009) into consideration.

how?...according to you League MVP's is better then "acclamation"

Son? :oldlol: at this punk. Like in the other thread, I'm done trying to talk sense into you, it can't be done.
yup I'm a Punk for agreeing with ESPN , Phil Jackson and Shaq in 2001 saying Kobe is the best player.

your garbage son......and your name calling is silly.

I'm quickly finding that out.[/QUOTE]

Shaq Attack:facepalm

IN-PAX-WE-TRUST

03-07-2011, 08:48 PM

Shaq was obviously the #1 option in 2000 but it Shaq obviously does not win a ring without Kobe. Portland and Sacremento would have run over those teams.

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 09:02 PM

Just ignore Alpha Wolf and Kunvia/Calabis.

An illogical Kobe stan and two Kobe hating nut jobs. It's not possible for psychopaths like them with an agenda to look at him objectively, so their opinions on him are shit on the bottom of a shoe.

The funny thing is, if you asked most of ISH who the biggest Shaq homer was, I'd be 99% of the posters answer and you'd probably be listed as one of the biggest Kobe homers, yet we agree more often than not on this subject.

I don't get why people need to get so insecure over their favorite player's legacy that they can't be rational.

You can be a fan of a player and still appreciate other players. I don't hesitate to call Kobe the second best player in the entire 2001 playoffs, just like you don't have a problem calling Shaq the best in the league.

The same shit happens in Jordan vs Pippen threads. Each irrational part of each player's fan base always takes it too far by overrating their favorite player and diminishing the other too much. Not all fans of either fan base, and honestly, aside from Alpha Wolf, most of the biggest Kobe fans seem rational when discussing Shaq and Kobe during those years at this point.

G-Funk

03-07-2011, 09:06 PM

Sidekick proof, I'm telling you. Shooting 6-24 and getting handed the Finals Mvp because teammates bailed your choking ass out? Know what happens when other top players play that way? They lose! Not sidekick Kobe. Not with Gasol rebounding his misses and putting them back in. Sidekick proof = being 0-2 on gamewinners in the 2010 playoffs yet a 2-0 record in those games. Two clutch misses in last years playoffs....AND VICTORY....in typical sidekick fashion...:lol
ur the stupidest person if u actually think Gasol>Kobe...

It amazes me how someone can actually believe that, how stupid does a person need to be to actually believe that ppl would eat that bullshyt???

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

03-07-2011, 09:08 PM

ur the stupidest person if u actually think Gasol>Kobe...

It amazes me how someone can actually believe that, how stupid does a person need to be to actually believe that ppl would eat that bullshyt???

Those are cold hard facts. Deal with them.

Bandito

03-07-2011, 09:10 PM

Calabis

03-07-2011, 09:41 PM

No, because your always in every Kobe related thread with no purpose other than trying to bash and diminish him.

Has nothing to do with having him in your top 5, I don't have him in my top 5. It's that that your a psychotic nut case that does nothing but spew garbage about a player trying to marginalize him for whatever reason, mostly likely because your an insecure hater.

LMAO!!!! I have already stated numerous times, Kobe all time great, one of the best I have ever seen, top 10-12 player all time, 2nd best 2 guard I have seen.....but because unlike you, I don't praise him ever single moment or believe in the "Kobe best at everything" creed...I'm a hater.....lol...no I'm realistic, while you and the rest of your band of misfits, go the extra mile too tear down every other players legacy and accomplishments to help the "overrating of Kobe saturation threads", you can do that and I will poiint out the flaws in your hypothetical/what if crap. Example: FG% has been replaced by TS% for you guys...why, because that way his free throws can help boost his accuracy at the rim, therefore you guys acting as if he is the most accurate shooter of all time.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 09:43 PM

The funny thing is, if you asked most of ISH who the biggest Shaq homer was, I'd be 99% of the posters answer and you'd probably be listed as one of the biggest Kobe homers, yet we agree more often than not on this subject.

I don't get why people need to get so insecure over their favorite player's legacy that they can't be rational.

You can be a fan of a player and still appreciate other players. I don't hesitate to call Kobe the second best player in the entire 2001 playoffs, just like you don't have a problem calling Shaq the best in the league.

The same shit happens in Jordan vs Pippen threads. Each irrational part of each player's fan base always takes it too far by overrating their favorite player and diminishing the other too much. Not all fans of either fan base, and honestly, aside from Alpha Wolf, most of the biggest Kobe fans seem rational when discussing Shaq and Kobe during those years at this point.

so believing Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001 and the premiere player of the decade is being irrational Kobe stan?

and BTW I'm far from the only basketball fan viewing it this way...and I never meant to diminish Shaq..I was just pointing out what really happened.

good luck to you and may you find inner peace within the next few years.

ShaqAttack3234

03-07-2011, 09:51 PM

so believing Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001 and the premiere player of the decade is being irrational Kobe stan

Just to clear up something, as I said before, I have no problem with someone calling Kobe the best for the duration of the decade(2000-2009), but yes, I find it laughable to call him the best player in the NBA in 2001.

I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, just clearing up something.

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 09:51 PM

Just curious? Honest question, what are your thought processes whenever you decide debate basketball. Where do you gather your information from? How do you construct your thoughts? Do you read any dissenting views on the subject? Do you do any critical thinking?

I really want to know.

I carefully construct complex formula's and rather then process what I watch or what the majority of the free thinking basketball community say's...I use these complex formula's to prove somehow I am a basketball elitist...a "hardcore fan" who's knowlege is somehow far superior then that of "average fan"

if "average fan" says (player a is best) I will knock down popular belief with thousands upon thousands of irrefutable numbers to prove.....(drum roll)

I am a Hardcore elitist fan....and No matter what 99% of the basketball community thinks ....they are just irrational "stans of (fill any top player here)

hope I answered your question:confusedshrug:

AlphaWolf24

03-07-2011, 09:56 PM

Just to clear up something, as I said before, I have no problem with someone calling Kobe the best for the duration of the decade(2000-2009), but yes, I find it laughable to call him the best player in the NBA in 2001.

I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, just clearing up something.

serious?..you find it laughable to call a player who had the post season that Kobe had in 2001 the best allaround player in the league?...really?

well we will have to agree to disagree then....good luck to you....

techno

03-07-2011, 09:59 PM

lmao at these clowns who dont think he isnt the GOAT :facepalm

Anaximandro1

03-07-2011, 10:26 PM

If Kobe wins 6 rings would he be considered a Top 5 Player in NBA history?Not a chance.

Duncan and Shaq dominated the NBA between 1999-2007.

1999 Duncan (FMVP,NBA Title)

2000 Shaq (MVP,FMVP,NBA Title)

2001 Shaq (FMVP,NBA Title)

2002 Shaq (FMVP,NBA Title)

2003 Duncan (MVP,FMVP,NBA Title)

2005 Duncan (FMVP,NBA Title)

2006 Shaq (NBA Title)

2007 Duncan (NBA Title)

Shaq and Duncan are the last players to win MVP and Finals MVP in the same season.Magic,Bird,Jordan,Olajuwon,Kareem did the same.Kobe does not belong in ANY conversation about being anywhere near as good as this guys.

Shaq and Duncan are more statistically dominant than Kobe.On top of that,Duncan is a 10xs better team player than Kobe.

NBA Playoff Leaders for Points

1. Michael Jordan 5987

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5762

3. Shaquille O'Neal 5248 (214 GM)

4. Kobe Bryant 5052

5. Karl Malone 4761

6. Jerry West 4457

7. Tim Duncan 3914 (170 GM)

NBA Playoff Leaders for Total Rebounds

1. Bill Russell 4104

2. Wilt Chamberlain* 3913

3. Shaquille O'Neal 2508 (214 GM)

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2481

5. Tim Duncan 2114 (170 GM)

NBA Career Playoff Leaders for Blocks

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 476

2. Hakeem Olajuwon 472

3. Shaquille O'Neal 459 (214 GM)

4. Tim Duncan 438 (170 GM)

Kobe has had the benefit of playing on a stacked team for 90% of his career.Right now,Lakers have a HUGE size advantage.What Kobe fans fail to see is that his