Is Ben Wallace the best defender in league history?

[Clippersfan86]

Saw a thread comparing him the other day and I've always been a big fan of his. Check out this resume and tell me what you think.

* NBA Champion: 2004
* 4

[blablabla]

russell
mutumbo

[Hotlantadude81]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Saw a thread comparing him the other day and I've always been a big fan of his. Check out this resume and tell me what you think.

* NBA Champion: 2004
* 4

[ThaSwagg3r]

If there was a DPOY award back in the 50s and 60s, Bill Russell would probably have more than 10. Shit, I wouldn't even be surprised if he won that award all 13 seasons.

[YouCallILose]

If there was a DPOY award back in the 50s and 60s, Bill Russell would probably have more than 10. Shit, I wouldn't even be surprised if he won that award all 13 seasons.

Doubt it, Chamberlain was a better defender than Russell.

[Clippersfan86]

If there was a DPOY award back in the 50s and 60s, Bill Russell would probably have more than 10. Shit, I wouldn't even be surprised if he won that award all 13 seasons.

Ok. After Russell then. Remember.. Russell didn't have to guard anyone besides Wilt. It was a weak era. In this league.. Wallace had to guard guys like Duncan, KG, Shaq... you name it and on a regular basis. He's guarded and done well against almost every big and flat out shut a lot down during his prime. He's the only guy I've seen hold Shaq in check when Shaq was still pretty dominant.

[Stuckey]

he's top 10 for sure

there's a lot of players i rather have over him

KG for one

[Harison]

Russell is GOAT defender, I would also take ahead of Big Ben - Hakeem, DRob, KG, Timmy, etc.

[Clippersfan86]

he's top 10 for sure

there's a lot of players i rather have over him

KG for one

Wow you must be a new Pistons fan. You'd take KG's defense over freaking WALLACE!? Wallace wasn't just a great shot blocker guys. He was the best man defense big by far. His interior man D was MUCH better than current day Kendrick Perkins to give you an idea AND he had elite shot blocking to go with it which Perkins doesn't. To top it all off he's only 6'8 240 pounds playing Center most of his career. All of this from an undrafted player who when traded for Grant Hill.. was mocked. It was supposed to be the most lopsided trade in league history quite possibly. Funny thing is Detroit got the better of the deal.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Ok. After Russell then. Remember.. Russell didn't have to guard anyone besides Wilt. It was a weak era. In this league.. Wallace had to guard guys like Duncan, KG, Shaq... you name it and on a regular basis. He's guarded and done well against almost every big and flat out shut a lot down during his prime. He's the only guy I've seen hold Shaq in check when Shaq was still pretty dominant.
Hold Shaq in check? I think it is very clear you don't have a damn idea of what you are talking about.

27 ppg and a FG% of 63% (Shaq's Stats in '04 Finals) is not something I would call "hold in check."

Shaq was terrific against the Pistons in the '05 playoffs too. The stats for the 04-05 season aren't available though, so I can't find them.

[LAClipsFan33]

Hell no

[az00m]

I'd say dennis rodman is better than ben.

Guarding the 1
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/imagenes/magic_jordan2.jpg
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81343453.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54895A27DCA4B8C2A25 7BA853D0BB62595AC5E465E4EE404409

Guarding the 2

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product442/jordan-tounge-out-rodman-pistons-1445.JPG

Guarding the 4

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2009/news/features/08/17/summermoves/barkley608.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/339939/256856.jpg
He got called for offensive foul.

Guarding the 5
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/Ss1-0EydYSI/AAAAAAAAZNk/Ucvnow0ebFY/s400/Hakeem+Olajuwon.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgwXBVaVwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK3ky-c2TPc&feature=related

Guarded shaq after shaq had a 25 point first half he had 2 points the whole half with OT. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr0vWIwObKY&feature=related

[TennesseeFan]

lol thats a good one.

And Rodman is guarding Magic Johnson there, he can play all the positions on the floor, he is guarding him in the post.

[Clippersfan86]

I'd say dennis rodman is better than ben.

Guarding the 1
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/imagenes/magic_jordan2.jpg
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81343453.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54895A27DCA4B8C2A25 7BA853D0BB62595AC5E465E4EE404409

Guarding the 2

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product442/jordan-tounge-out-rodman-pistons-1445.JPG

Guarding the 4

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2009/news/features/08/17/summermoves/barkley608.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/339939/256856.jpg
He got called for offensive foul.

Guarding the 5
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/Ss1-0EydYSI/AAAAAAAAZNk/Ucvnow0ebFY/s400/Hakeem+Olajuwon.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgwXBVaVwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK3ky-c2TPc&feature=related


Worm absolutely has a case. I wasn't making it sound like the answer is a clear cut yes. I just think his side carries more weight because he was an undrafted nobody that nobody gave a damn about.

[Clippersfan86]

Hold Shaq in check? I think it is very clear you don't have a damn idea of what you are talking about.

27 ppg and a FG% of 63% (Shaq's Stats in '04 Finals) is not something I would call "hold in check."

Shaq was terrific against the Pistons in the '05 playoffs too. The stats for the 04-05 season aren't available though, so I can't find them.

Did I say he held Shaq in check during the finals? I just said in general. Wallace gave Shaq problems when they matched up more than a couple times which is amazing considering Shaq's dominance at the time.

[az00m]

Worm absolutely has a case. I wasn't making it sound like the answer is a clear cut yes. I just think his side carries more weight because he was an undrafted nobody that nobody gave a damn about.

Rodman didnt join the league until he was 25 years old. Was picked in the 2nd round.

[az00m]

lol thats a good one.

And Rodman is guarding Magic Johnson there, he can play all the positions on the floor, he is guarding him in the post.

Yep and in the other pic he is guarding him on the wing, but it didn't come up.

He could seriously guard anyone on the floor :bowdown:

[Clippersfan86]

Rodman didnt join the league until he was 25 years old. Was picked in the 2nd round.

When I said... carries more weight I mean in general vs the other elite defenders, not Rodman. Rodman is in the same boat as Wallace which is why I said both have a great case. Neither were expected to be much.. and became dominant defenders and rebounders.

[YouCallILose]

discounting the 50's/60's when who the hell knows what went on, hakeem is quite easily the greatest defender in nba history and there is little to no case for wallace being over him.

[az00m]

Anyone who has time and is a fan of rodman I suggest reading this. Much proof that no one was of more value to a team than him. It's a long read with many parts to it but it is an enjoyable one.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197

[Collie]

How is he better than, say, Hakeem Olajuwon, who could guard any position and averaged 4 bpg and 2 spg?

[JMT]

No. He is not.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Did I say he held Shaq in check during the finals? I just said in general. Wallace gave Shaq problems when they matched up more than a couple times which is amazing considering Shaq's dominance at the time.
Big deal, he held him in a selective amount of games. I'm sure there have been times where a player has held MJ in a selective amount of games. It doesn't mean shit.

[ThaRegul8r]

No.

[Rose]

He's top 5. I'd rate Rodman, Motumbo, Dream, and potentially Russell or Wilt over him.

[the_wise_one]

No.

[nycelt84]

Ok. After Russell then. Remember.. Russell didn't have to guard anyone besides Wilt. It was a weak era. In this league.. Wallace had to guard guys like Duncan, KG, Shaq... you name it and on a regular basis. He's guarded and done well against almost every big and flat out shut a lot down during his prime. He's the only guy I've seen hold Shaq in check when Shaq was still pretty dominant.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Ben Wallace has played in the worst era of big men in NBA history while Russell and Wilt especially the Lakers version were winning more games by being dominant on defense than any other players in league history.

[pauk]

dennis rodman

[Rose]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Ben Wallace has played in the worst era of big men in NBA history while Russell and Wilt especially the Lakers version were winning more games by being dominant on defense than any other players in league history.
:facepalm :facepalm

[PowerGlove]

He's up there but I would still take KG over him any day of the week.

[rodman91]

Hold Shaq in check? I think it is very clear you don't have a damn idea of what you are talking about.

27 ppg and a FG% of 63% (Shaq's Stats in '04 Finals) is not something I would call "hold in check."

Shaq was terrific against the Pistons in the '05 playoffs too. The stats for the 04-05 season aren't available though, so I can't find them.
Also shaq wasn't as good as couple of season's before.

Ben wallace is one of my all time favorite players.He was all about hustle and hardwork.Great rebounder and blocker also was good at stealing ball.He had very quick hands in prime.He was putting fear in opponent's heart.However his one on one defense never been in same level like Rodman's.He wasn't best lock down defender.He wasn't best blocker. (Hakeem,Mutombo etc.)

For me best defenders in nba history Russel,Hakeem & Rodman.Russell for obvious reasons, Hakeem he was one of the greatest shot blocker and he could steal balls as much as guards. Rodman was great lock down defender, he wasn't blocker or stealer but he guarded from Magic & Jordan to Malone&Shaq.

[nycelt84]

[QUOTE=Rose]:facepalm :facepalm[

What did I say that was false? Has Ben Wallace not played in the worst era of NBA centers? Did Russell and Wilt not win more games by defensive dominance than any other players? The quality of 60's era centers is way better than those of Wallace's era. He is nowhere close to those 2 and the gap between Russell and second place is pretty large.

[JMT]

[QUOTE=Rose]:facepalm :facepalm[

What did I say that was false? Has Ben Wallace not played in the worst era of NBA centers? Did Russell and Wilt not win more games by defensive dominance than any other players? The quality of 60's era centers is way better than those of Wallace's era. He is nowhere close to those 2 and the gap between Russell and second place is pretty large.

The face palm icon appears to be the refuge of those who can't argue their point intelligently.

And let's not even address the fact that all the ISH experts have limited their choices of best defender to post players. Not a perimeter defender mentioned. Of course, they can't google their blocks/rebounds and then speak about their games as if they actually know something.

[Rose]

[QUOTE=Rose]:facepalm :facepalm[

What did I say that was false? Has Ben Wallace not played in the worst era of NBA centers? Did Russell and Wilt not win more games by defensive dominance than any other players? The quality of 60's era centers is way better than those of Wallace's era. He is nowhere close to those 2 and the gap between Russell and second place is pretty large.
Because he also played against Prime KG, Timmy, and Shaq. And held all to a pretty decent numbers. NOW he plays in a weak era. but overall when he was younger he played in a pretty solid one. That's two top players, and a top 30 player. Not too also mention Yao, Dwight, Amare(if you count him as a center in PHX) Jermaine O'Neal was pretty top notch for a while as well.

Wilt and Russell basically played against each other. Mikan was gone, and only Wilt played against Kareem.

[Rose]

[QUOTE=nycelt84]

The face palm icon appears to be the refuge of those who can't argue their point intelligently.

And let's not even address the fact that all the ISH experts have limited their choices of best defender to post players. Not a perimeter defender mentioned. Of course, they can't google their blocks/rebounds and then speak about their games as if they actually know something.
:roll:

[brandowas]

http://www.redsarmy.com/.a/6a01156f2c3287970c01157032676d970c-500wi

look at some interviews/quotes from him. Dude understood defense and defensive strategy better than ANYONE of all time

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://www.redsarmy.com/.a/6a01156f2c3287970c01157032676d970c-500wi

look at some interviews/quotes from him. Dude understood defense and defensive strategy better than ANYONE of all time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcET9-5MyWk

:bowdown:

[nycelt84]

[QUOTE=nycelt84]
Because he also played against Prime KG, Timmy, and Shaq. And held all to a pretty decent numbers. NOW he plays in a weak era. but overall when he was younger he played in a pretty solid one. That's two top players, and a top 30 player. Not too also mention Yao, Dwight, Amare(if you count him as a center in PHX) Jermaine O'Neal was pretty top notch for a while as well.

Wilt and Russell basically played against each other. Mikan was gone, and only Wilt played against Kareem.

You need to read up on who Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas,Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond and then say something as foolish as Wilt and Russell only played against each other.

[Rose]

[QUOTE=Rose]

You need to read up on who Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas,Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond and then say something as foolish as Wilt and Russell only played against each other.
Okay I forgot Lucas.

But Reed only played against Russell for 5 years. and Bellamy ehhh he was only a 20 point per game scorer for his career, and after his first 8? or so really fell off offensively. dropping from high 20s to low 20s if that. and Thurmond we'll count too

So Pettit, Lucas, and Bellamy(with wilt and russell) are better than
Timmy, Shaq, KG, Jermaine, Yao, Amare and Dwight?Sure the top is better, but I think Ben's era is equally comparable.

[brandowas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcET9-5MyWk

:bowdown:

Awesome video! He had shot blocking down to an art form. This is a newbie question and I'm just asking anyone, what happened to repping? It seemed like a good way to identify good and bad posters is it coming back? :confusedshrug:

[nycelt84]

[QUOTE=nycelt84]
Okay I forgot Lucas.

But Reed only played against Russell for 5 years. and Bellamy ehhh he was only a 20 point per game scorer for his career, and after his first 8? or so really fell off offensively. dropping from high 20s to low 20s if that. and Thurmond we'll count too

So Pettit, Lucas, and Bellamy(with wilt and russell) are better than
Timmy, Shaq, KG, Jermaine, Yao, Amare and Dwight?Sure the top is better, but I think Ben's era is equally comparable.

Pettit, Lucas, and Bellamy are all in the HOF. Not to mention that there was never a season where Duncan, Shaq, and those guys you mentioned were all close to their respective primes all at the same time and Jermaine and Yao will mostly likely never make the Hall and it's still to early to tell for Amare and Dwight.

Reed, Lucas, Wilt, Russell, Thurmond, Pettit, and Bellamy by contrast all played in an All-Star game the same year by the way and that was before the fan voting era and players going based on popularity.

[pauk]

when i reaaaaaally think about it
has to be SCOTTIE PIPPEN
he could lock up and shut down anybody from a pg to a pf and even some centers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

[Clippersfan86]

I agree 100 percent with Rose and his top 5 defenders list. You guys are greatly underrating Wallace. Not only was he a very good man defender with players much bigger than him.. but his playing the passing lanes for steals was incredible for a big his size. Then all of this while being 6'7 240??? He's listed at 6'9 but admitted he was 6'7 ish. As for comparing Centers Shaq is the most unstoppable physical force in LEAGUE HISTORY. I would bet everyone that Shaq was MUCH harder to guard than Wilt.

Wilt may of been the better Center depending on who you ask but to suggest guys in Russell's era were as good as the dominant bigs Wallace has guarded is a JOKE. Wilt was much smaller and weaker than Shaq physically. Like I said.. he's also had to guard the best PF of all time in Duncan multiple times and a ton of other quality bigs. In the Russell/Wilt era.. they were leaps and bounds better than everyone else with a huge talent gap. Bunch of unathletic white boys matching up with them. I'd love to see those 6'6 PF's from the 60's and 70's play in this era. They would get raped.

[Rose]

[QUOTE=Rose]

Pettit, Lucas, and Bellamy are all in the HOF. Not to mention that there was never a season where Duncan, Shaq, and those guys you mentioned were all close to their respective primes all at the same time and Jermaine and Yao will mostly likely never make the Hall and it's still to early to tell for Amare and Dwight.

Reed, Lucas, Wilt, Russell, Thurmond, Pettit, and Bellamy by contrast all played in an All-Star game the same year by the way and that was before the fan voting era and players going based on popularity.
Well 2000 was where Ben finally got minutes and by 2002 which is arguably Timmy's best year, and a terrific Shaq year, he was playing big minutes against them. He definitely played against KG's prime. Jermaine and Yao might not make the hall, in fact Jermaine won't. But the fact they were top centers at one point in time doesn't make it irrelevant. They were pretty good players at their best.

Plus Ben played against Shaq and Timmy in the finals. and Jermaine in the playoffs a lot. While Shaq wasn't exactly stopped he still did a pretty decent job all things considered.

And that's true they did all player together. But so did Duncan Shaq and KG on the west. And Jermaine also made the team, and obviously Yao started regardless of whether or not he deserved it.:lol

[pauk]

I agree 100 percent with Rose and his top 5 defenders list. You guys are greatly underrating Wallace. Not only was he a very good man defender with players much bigger than him.. but his playing the passing lanes for steals was incredible for a big his size. Then all of this while being 6'7 240??? He's listed at 6'9 but admitted he was 6'7 ish. As for comparing Centers Shaq is the most unstoppable physical force in LEAGUE HISTORY. I would bet everyone that Shaq was MUCH harder to guard than Wilt.

Wilt may of been the better Center depending on who you ask but to suggest guys in Russell's era were as good as the dominant bigs Wallace has guarded is a JOKE. Wilt was much smaller and weaker than Shaq physically. Like I said.. he's also had to guard the best PF of all time in Duncan multiple times and a ton of other quality bigs. In the Russell/Wilt era.. they were leaps and bounds better than everyone else with a huge talent gap. Bunch of unathletic white boys matching up with them. I'd love to see those 6'6 PF's from the 60's and 70's play in this era. They would get raped.

ya u could be right
http://elblogdelbaloncestero.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/wallace-varejao-lebron-wally.jpg

[ProfessorMurder]

Mutombo is rolling over in his grave right now with only two mentions in this thread.

[PowerGlove]

Mutombo is rolling over in his grave right now with only two mentions in this thread.
:oldlol:

I thought it was assumed that the OP was just a bait to get to talk about something other than Kobe and Lebron.

[Rose]

Mutombo is rolling over in his grave right now with only two mentions in this thread.
U da :(

He can be number 6 or 7. I was debating him or Dream. I went with Dream./bias

[XxSMSxX]

Mutombo is rolling over in his grave right now with only two mentions in this thread.
http://img.printfection.com/1/2619/4602041/4v5ea.jpg

This shirt has absolutely nothing to do with your post but i just felt the need :lol

WHO WANTS TO SEX MUTOMBO?!?!?!

[JustSaying]

Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Mutombo, Jabbar, Rodman, Payton, MJ, and Robinson were better. I suppose you can say Wallace is top 10... but nowhere close to being the best.

[PHILA]

Doubt it, Chamberlain was a better defender than Russell.Maybe for a season or two, but overall nobody rivaled Russell there. With Chamberlain it wasn't as consistent. It appears that he was a Shaq-type defender from '61-'63 after a strong rookie season, until Coach Hannum arrived.


http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html

I came into the NBA as a defensive player. I used to like to go up and grab balls in the air. Everyone was afraid of my defensive game more so than my scoring game.



Tom Meschery, drafted in '61:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202964

[I]- Could you expand on him as a player?

- Well, he could have played better in defence. When I got in the

[KB2clutch]

how da hell did ben wallace make so many all-nba second team???? him being even an allstar i would consider a stretch, he was completely useless on the offensive end, i dont care how good he was on d, his offensive game negates it completely

[R-Pattz]

I don't know man. I've always thought big Ben to be quite overrated on defense actually, though I don't deny his greatness. the Pistons were an outstanding defensive team, with just about everyone committed to defense, and Prince and Rasheed were excellent defenders in their own right. the Pistons' defensive scheme suited him perfectly; take him out of a funneling system and he's still a great defender, but not 4-dpoy worthy great.

I think the gaudy steals numbers made people perceive him as more active than he actually was, in regards to defending outside of the paint. Once he arrived on the Bulls, and had to play in a system that relied on Kirk and co. pressuring the ballhandler, his defensive impact suddenly didn't seem so great (and it really wasn't solely due to his age/health; he just didn't fit their system like the Bulls intended him to).

Personally, I think KG is the best defender of their generation...he wasn't any worse as an anchor than the other premier defensive big man, but he also had great positional defense in just about every capacity..with closing-out abilities that are practically unseen amongst big men.

[O BaByShaQ]

The dream or Russell are number 1

[ballerz]

no, russel, rodman, hakeem, duncan, d-rob, kg are better then him

[hoopaddict08]

how da hell did ben wallace make so many all-nba second team???? him being even an allstar i would consider a stretch, he was completely useless on the offensive end, i dont care how good he was on d, his offensive game negates it completely

Steve Nash is completely useless on the defensive end, should he not be an all-star?

Ben Wallace was a defensive superstar. He was a fun guy to watch in his prime and he deserved every right to be in that all-star game.

[Clippersfan86]

ya u could be right
http://elblogdelbaloncestero.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/wallace-varejao-lebron-wally.jpg

Yup. Just a tad bit shorter than Lebron lol. His fro included he was like 6'11.

[Clippersfan86]

Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Mutombo, Jabbar, Rodman, Payton, MJ, and Robinson were better. I suppose you can say Wallace is top 10... but nowhere close to being the best.

I agree with him being top 10. I think I jumped the gun a bit on asking if he's THE best. I should of titled it is he a top 5 or top 10 defender of all time. Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to change it.

[Scholar]

In my eyes, Ben Wallace is a definite top 10 defender of all-time, if not top 5.

[knightfall88]

Look im not going to compare Ben to anyone from the past simply because you can't play defense these days yet Ben is able to excel.

[Cowboy Thunder]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2008/06/tony-allen-kobe-bryant.jpg

TA is pretty good :bowdown:

[Clippersfan86]

In my eyes, Ben Wallace is a definite top 10 defender of all-time, if not top 5.

:applause: . Agree. To play in this era of touch fouls and have to guard the most dominant force in league history AND the best PF of all time in the finals.. is a big deal. How many other dominant defenders these guys have listed have averaged so many steals per game? None.

[sirkeelma]

Not in my house :no: >>>> Big ben

[97 bulls]

Anyone who has time and is a fan of rodman I suggest reading this. Much proof that no one was of more value to a team than him. It's a long read with many parts to it but it is an enjoyable one.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197
Thanks zoom. I think this clearly shows that rodman is the greatest rebounder ever and a top 5 alltime defender. I also think he was arguably the most important player on the 90 pistons. He shot 58% and basically avg 10 and 10 off the bench. Then factor in what he did to guys like bird and jordan and magic in the early part of his career, then what he did to shaq, malone, and mourning and kemp in the latter part of his career.

[Stuckey]

ok let's make a list of defenders you would take over wallace

wilt
russel
hakeem
rodman
drob
kg
pippen

[Reggie43]

russel, wilt, olajuwon, robinson, jabbar, rodman, mutombo, mourning, ewing, payton, pippen, mj, kg, duncan were definitely better. Put ben wallace in the 90s and lets see if he gets elected to 2nd team all defense :lol

[GiveItToBurrito]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Saw a thread comparing him the other day and I've always been a big fan of his. Check out this resume and tell me what you think.

* NBA Champion: 2004
* 4

[GiveItToBurrito]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2008/06/tony-allen-kobe-bryant.jpg

TA is pretty good :bowdown:

He's hands down the best perimeter defender in the league right now. I still think Dwight's a better overall one, just because of how valuable a center is on every defensive possession.

[Big#50]

He is probably top ten. It is much easier to be a great defender when you don’t play offense. Players like Drob, Hakeem, Duncan, KAJ not only played all time great D but were the number one option on offense as well. Same goes for Rodman on D and his rebounding.

[get these NETS]

Toss up between wallace and rodman


Artest is almost in their league, he's a decent offensive player so people overlook his defense

Rodman is the FIRST and only person that I ever saw rip Magic....literally took the ball from Magic and was gonna go the other way for a dunk....before Magic fouled him.

[Replay32]

No he's not.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=PHILA]Maybe for a season or two, but overall nobody rivaled Russell there. With Chamberlain it wasn't as consistent. It appears that he was a Shaq-type defender from '61-'63 after a strong rookie season, until Coach Hannum arrived.


http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html

I came into the NBA as a defensive player. I used to like to go up and grab balls in the air. Everyone was afraid of my defensive game more so than my scoring game.



Tom Meschery, drafted in '61:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202964

[I]- Could you expand on him as a player?

- Well, he could have played better in defence. When I got in the

[momo]

Hell no.

[Rake2204]

Frequently held Michael Doleac in check.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/d68/ben-wallace-detroit-pistons-signed-8x10-photo-wcoa1_d68202f313dc80945c5603cea60b8479.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

Ben Wallace isnt but he was a better defender than Dennis Rodman personally.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=nycelt84]
Okay I forgot Lucas.

But Reed only played against Russell for 5 years. and Bellamy ehhh he was only a 20 point per game scorer for his career, and after his first 8? or so really fell off offensively. dropping from high 20s to low 20s if that. and Thurmond we'll count too

So Pettit, Lucas, and Bellamy(with wilt and russell) are better than
Timmy, Shaq, KG, Jermaine, Yao, Amare and Dwight?Sure the top is better, but I think Ben's era is equally comparable.

Russell was the greatest all-around defensive player in NBA history. And to use the limited number of players he faced against him is flawed for this reason: He was facing Lucas, Reed, Bellamy, Beatty, Thurmond, and Wilt 9-10 games or more, EACH, per season. Unlike the 90's and 00's, he seldom had the luxury of "mailing it in" like so many of the better centers could in those years.

And as for Wilt...he faced Pettit, Kerr, Beatty, Lucas (yes, he was a long-range shooting center later in his career), Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Russell, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, McAdoo, and Kareem...most of them in the HOF. He also badly outplayed the 7-2 Gilmore in the '72 ABA-NBA All-Star game. And, here again, aside from Gilmore, he faced them far more often during the course of a season, than those that Wallace faced in his.

Now, give me the list of HOF centers that Wallace has faced...even with his HUGE advantage in the number of teams (30 per year)?

[Apocalyptic0n3]

As much as I love Big Ben, he's not even the best in franchise history, much less league history. Rodman, Russell, Chamberlain, Mutumbo, etc. were all better defenders (and those were just the big guys. There were better small guy defenders as well. Hell, his former teammate, Lindsay Hunter, was one of the best on ball defending guards of his time even)

[Rake2204]

In addition to Michael Doleac, Ben Wallace also blocked Shaquille O'Neal a couple of times.

http://www.nba.com/media/poy06_bwallace_600px.jpg

[97 bulls]

Ben Wallace isnt but he was a better defender than Dennis Rodman personally.
No way no how

[DuMa]

the center position is the greatest peice to your team defense philosophy, so there is no question in my mind the greatest defender in NBA history has to be a center. and no, Ben Wallace is not this. while being great himself, he isnt the best over Russell/DRob/Hakeem

[Rake2204]

This is going to sound dorky, but I really loved how Ben Wallace hedged on pick and rolls. I loved his blocks and I loved his rebounding, but he definitely did more than that. I'm not terribly interested in ranking him in history, or even in comparison to Dennis Rodman. I'll just say he brought a ton to these Piston teams of the '00's and I'm really pumped I had a chance to watch him extensively in his prime. He was extremely fun to watch.

Also, great helpside defender:

http://404notfound.com/blog/images/bigben.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

No way no how

haha thats just me. Rodman could never lock up the paint like Big Ben could. Big Ben to me os one of those players where if u have him on your team, your team will be a top 3 defensive squad in the NBA.

[az00m]

haha thats just me. Rodman could never lock up the paint like Big Ben could. Big Ben to me os one of those players where if u have him on your team, your team will be a top 3 defensive squad in the NBA.

Rodman did just fine in the paint. He wasn't a shot blocker but he was one of the greatest post defenders and help defenders in the paint. He guarded prime shaq in a key match up vs the lakers when they were down by 20 after the half. He held him to 2 points when they put rodman on him, and shaq threw a punch at him at the end of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgwXBVaVwM

I rather take someone he could guard the 1-5 great than just the 4/5.

Imo this is why rodman deserved the mvp in the finals of the 1996 season
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp_4eGoBf_c&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ByBuATTyg&feature=related

[97 bulls]

This is going to sound dorky, but I really loved how Ben Wallace hedged on pick and rolls. I loved his blocks and I loved his rebounding, but he definitely did more than that. I'm not terribly interested in ranking him in history, or even in comparison to Dennis Rodman. I'll just say he brought a ton to these Piston teams of the '00's and I'm really pumped I had a chance to watch him extensively in his prime. He was extremely fun to watch.

Also, great helpside defender:

http://404notfound.com/blog/images/bigben.jpg
Number 50 in this picture, was a good as the centers wallace played against during his prime.

[97 bulls]

haha thats just me. Rodman could never lock up the paint like Big Ben could. Big Ben to me os one of those players where if u have him on your team, your team will be a top 3 defensive squad in the NBA.
But look at who he played against!!!!!!! He defended the worse collection of centers to ever play the game. That kid in that picture rake posted was as good a center as you were gonna get in wallaces era. I remember when he first came into the league, he was cut by the lowly washington bullets. 17 yr old kobe kobe dunking on him in a preseason game something fierce. He was flatout not even good enough to make a team in the 90s.

[Teanett]

ben wallace is totally overrated.
not a top man-on-man defender. shaq was killing him in 2004. 63%?
don't underestimate sheed's impact on the piston's defense. tayshaun wasn't bad either.

mutombo
admiral
robinson
mourning
shaq
ewing
rodman
eaton
dwight howard

[Teanett]

haha thats just me. Rodman could never lock up the paint like Big Ben could. Big Ben to me os one of those players where if u have him on your team, your team will be a top 3 defensive squad in the NBA.

nah. wallace on the wizards, bulls and cavs?
rodman always played on the best defensive team. wonder why?

[az00m]

My list of top 5 defenders after 1980 IN NO ORDER
http://www.fivewinds.net/demo/hakeem_blocks_jordan.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDfmYjf0iY4/TVgL2U3qEhI/AAAAAAAACpw/vEwNGmyQ6gE/s1600/rodman2.jpg

http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/mutombo_finger_wag.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2003/basketball/nba/12/08/bc.bkn.spurshonored.ap/t1_sportsmen_all.jpg

[Rake2204]

nah. wallace on the wizards, bulls and cavs?
rodman always played on the best defensive team. wonder why?
Dennis Rodman certainly played a large part in that. But so did Bill Laimbeer, John Salley, Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, James Edwards, David Robinson, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen. I think all those guys are in part why he always played on the best defensive team. . .because the team had great defenders (including himself).

[Rake2204]

But look at who he played against!!!!!!! He defended the worse collection of centers to ever play the game. That kid in that picture rake posted was as good a center as you were gonna get in wallaces era. I remember when he first came into the league, he was cut by the lowly washington bullets. 17 yr old kobe kobe dunking on him in a preseason game something fierce. He was flatout not even good enough to make a team in the 90s.
In Wallace's defense (pun), I'm not sure it's entirely efficient to take into accout his non-prime years. If that be the case, we may as well include Dennis Rodman's Lakers and Mavs runs.

If the attempted insinuation is that a prime Wallace could not cut it in the 1990's, I do not find that to be accurate either. He was a youngster in the late 90's. It's not as if Y2K occurred and zapped the league of all its big men. Even in Wallace's early years, the greats were winding their own careers down (Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson). I think it's much more likely to believe that Wallace's increased productivity was a result of his own positive actions rather than a sudden downfall in talent between 1998 and 2002.

[Bigsmoke]

nah. wallace on the wizards, bulls and cavs?
rodman always played on the best defensive team. wonder why?

Those teams were really great defensively with a load of All NBA defenders.

again, I'm just going by what i see on TV and Ben Wallace to me effect games defensively than Rodman. Rodman is a better glue guy but Ben better help defender because of his presents in the paint, post defender, shot blocker, better at contesting shots by guard penetrations, ect.

[Bigsmoke]

But look at who he played against!!!!!!! He defended the worse collection of centers to ever play the game. That kid in that picture rake posted was as good a center as you were gonna get in wallaces era. I remember when he first came into the league, he was cut by the lowly washington bullets. 17 yr old kobe kobe dunking on him in a preseason game something fierce. He was flatout not even good enough to make a team in the 90s.

Shaq and Tim Duncan are both better than any big Rodman ever played against and Ben met up against Shaq 4 times in the playoffs.

[Disaprine]

:roll:

[az00m]

Shaq and Tim Duncan are both better than any big Rodman ever played against and Ben met up against Shaq 4 times in the playoffs.

Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
Mourning
Barkley
Malone
Bradley
Kemp
Johnson
Smits

Those are just some of the centers/PF's he has guarded.

He guarded Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen. The list goes on.

[Bigsmoke]

Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
Mourning
Barkley
Malone
Bradley
Kemp
Johnson
Smits

Those are just some of the centers/PF's he has guarded.

He guarded Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen. The list goes on.


Bradley as in Shawn Bradley? :oldlol:

again, those guys are f*cking with Lakers Shaq and Tim Duncan

didnt Malone and Hakeem ate Rodman up in those 2 years when he was in San Antonio?

[Teanett]

In Wallace's defense (pun), I'm not sure it's entirely efficient to take into accout his non-prime years. If that be the case, we may as well include Dennis Rodman's Lakers and Mavs runs.


why not include it? dennis averaged 14.3 rebounds for the mavs, and while not being as quick as he used to he still helped them go on a win streak.

[Teanett]

Shaq and Tim Duncan are both better than any big Rodman ever played against and Ben met up against Shaq 4 times in the playoffs.


you are 16 years old.
you only have seen ben and dennis on youtube.
you just started shaving.

[97 bulls]

Bradley as in Shawn Bradley? :oldlol:

again, those guys are f*cking with Lakers Shaq and Tim Duncan

didnt Malone and Hakeem ate Rodman up in those 2 years when he was in San Antonio?
Lol shawn bradley would be a top 10 center if he played during wallaces era. Maybe even top 5

[necya]

top 10 all time?? his defense is so overrated and never deserve all those awards. 4 DPOY, it's just overweening.

he benefited too much of the good pistons days for sure. before and after their 4-5 years of success, he was nothing of a great defender.
it was the entire team defense who was amazing under Brown's coaching, not Ben Wallace alone.

anyway, i liked his intensity. defensively, he was Anthony Mason with more size.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He's obviously not the best, but better than a lot give him credit for.

As far as defensive impact, I'd take him over Rodman. Rodman was a better individual defender and in his younger years could guard perimeter players and he guarded centers well later, but Wallace anchored some dominant defensive teams.

Check out some of Ben's prime seasons.

2002- 13 rpg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the second round

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on that 2002 Pistons team and rightfully so. Stackhouse was the team's leading scorer, but was most notable for averaging 30 ppg on a 32 win team the previous season. In 2002, he dropped down to an inefficient 21 and less than 18 ppg on 32% shooting in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Ben averaged 16.1 rpg, 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg in the playoffs. This was pre-Rip, Chauncey, Tayshun and Sheed and Detroit were a 50 win team. They weren't as dominant defensively, but they were the 8th best defensive team in the league and you can credit the man who lead the league in rebounding and blocked shots that year, Ben Wa;;ace.

2003- 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben once again finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on his team, and rightfully so. Detroit improved to the 4th best defensive team and won 50 games despite having a mediocre offense. Detroit had acquired Billups and Hamilton during the offense and they drafted Prince(who didn't make much of an impact during the regular season, but made his presence known during the regular season), but the team's success started with Big Ben.

Ben once again stepped up in the playoffs averaging 16.3 rpg, 3.1 bpg and 2.5 spg and Detroit started their run of consecutive conference finals appearances.

2004- 12.4 rpg, 3 bpg, 1.8 spg, 54-28 record, won the championship

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on a team that went on to win a championship. They had already established themselves as a premier defensive team, and after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, they became the most dominant defensive team of all time, IMO. They finished the season as the 2nd best defensive team in the league(they were a below average offensive team)

Detroit won basketball games by playing a style that the casual fan would call ugly, they held teams to scores in the 70s regularly and it all started with Ben's intensity and defense.

Ben raised his game once again in the playoffs averaging 14.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.9 spg as Detroit's defense was even tougher than it was during the regular season.

2005- 12.2 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 1.4 spg, 54-28 record, advanced to the finals

Detroit was a top 3 defensive team again, and like the previous year, their defense became even tougher in the playoffs. They nearly won their second consecutive championship despite being a mediocre offensive team once again. Ben averaged 11.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.7 spg in the playoffs.

2006- 11.3 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 1.8 spg, 64-18 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben's last year in Detroit, and probably the first year that he wasn't their most valuable player. Despite that, he still anchored another top 5 defensive team and won his record-tying 4th defensive player of the year award.

2007- 10.7 rpg, 2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49-33 record

Ben signed a big free agent deal with Chicago, which turned out to be a mistake considering he was on the decline. However, he made a big impact in his first year. Chicago improved from 41-41 to 49-33 and went from the 7th best defensive team to the best defensive, yet another case of a team with Ben Wallace winning with a great defense and mediocre offense. He was also instrumental in Chicago's sweep of the Miami Heat in the first round. Despite Wade's injury and Shaq's decline, the Miami Heat had gone 16-7 in Wade's absence and O'Neal had played very well during that stretch. He put up solid numbers vs Ben(19/9, 56 FG%), but Ben frustrated him into offensive fouls throughout the series and clearly slowed down Shaq.

Ben has a history of anchoring dominant defenses and winning on teams that were mediocre offensive teams. I think he made a bigger impact defensively than both Rodman and Mutombo. I think his shot blocking made a larger impact on his team's defensive success than Rodman and he was a lot more active, versatile and mobile than Mutombo while still grabbing a comparable amount of rebounds and blocking a similar amount of shots, despite Mutombo camping out in the paint a lot more.

Aside from a history of being on good teams, Wallace's individual accomplishments look good.

4-time defensive player of the year
3 all-nba second team selections
2 all-nba third team selections
5 all-defensive first team selections
1 all-defensive second team selections
4-time all-star
top 10 in MVP voting 3 times(as high as 7th)
March 2002 Eastern Conference Player Of The Month
2-time rebounding leader
led the league in blocks in 2002
1 of only 5 players in NBA history to lead the league in blocked shots and rebounding in the same season.

IMO, he deserves to be in the hall of fame, and so does Rodman.

[97 bulls]

He's obviously not the best, but better than a lot give him credit for.

As far as defensive impact, I'd take him over Rodman. Rodman was a better individual defender and in his younger years could guard perimeter players and he guarded centers well later, but Wallace anchored some dominant defensive teams.

Check out some of Ben's prime seasons.

2002- 13 rpg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the second round

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on that 2002 Pistons team and rightfully so. Stackhouse was the team's leading scorer, but was most notable for averaging 30 ppg on a 32 win team the previous season. In 2002, he dropped down to an inefficient 21 and less than 18 ppg on 32% shooting in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Ben averaged 16.1 rpg, 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg in the playoffs. This was pre-Rip, Chauncey, Tayshun and Sheed and Detroit were a 50 win team. They weren't as dominant defensively, but they were the 8th best defensive team in the league and you can credit the man who lead the league in rebounding and blocked shots that year, Ben Wa;;ace.

2003- 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben once again finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on his team, and rightfully so. Detroit improved to the 4th best defensive team and won 50 games despite having a mediocre offense. Detroit had acquired Billups and Hamilton during the offense and they drafted Prince(who didn't make much of an impact during the regular season, but made his presence known during the regular season), but the team's success started with Big Ben.

Ben once again stepped up in the playoffs averaging 16.3 rpg, 3.1 bpg and 2.5 spg and Detroit started their run of consecutive conference finals appearances.

2004- 12.4 rpg, 3 bpg, 1.8 spg, 54-28 record, won the championship

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on a team that went on to win a championship. They had already established themselves as a premier defensive team, and after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, they became the most dominant defensive team of all time, IMO. They finished the season as the 2nd best defensive team in the league(they were a below average offensive team)

Detroit won basketball games by playing a style that the casual fan would call ugly, they held teams to scores in the 70s regularly and it all started with Ben's intensity and defense.

Ben raised his game once again in the playoffs averaging 14.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.9 spg as Detroit's defense was even tougher than it was during the regular season.

2005- 12.2 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 1.4 spg, 54-28 record, advanced to the finals

Detroit was a top 3 defensive team again, and like the previous year, their defense became even tougher in the playoffs. They nearly won their second consecutive championship despite being a mediocre offensive team once again. Ben averaged 11.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.7 spg in the playoffs.

2006- 11.3 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 1.8 spg, 64-18 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben's last year in Detroit, and probably the first year that he wasn't their most valuable player. Despite that, he still anchored another top 5 defensive team and won his record-tying 4th defensive player of the year award.

2007- 10.7 rpg, 2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49-33 record

Ben signed a big free agent deal with Chicago, which turned out to be a mistake considering he was on the decline. However, he made a big impact in his first year. Chicago improved from 41-41 to 49-33 and went from the 7th best defensive team to the best defensive, yet another case of a team with Ben Wallace winning with a great defense and mediocre offense. He was also instrumental in Chicago's sweep of the Miami Heat in the first round. Despite Wade's injury and Shaq's decline, the Miami Heat had gone 16-7 in Wade's absence and O'Neal had played very well during that stretch. He put up solid numbers vs Ben(19/9, 56 FG%), but Ben frustrated him into offensive fouls throughout the series and clearly slowed down Shaq.

Ben has a history of anchoring dominant defenses and winning on teams that were mediocre offensive teams. I think he made a bigger impact defensively than both Rodman and Mutombo. I think his shot blocking made a larger impact on his team's defensive success than Rodman and he was a lot more active, versatile and mobile than Mutombo while still grabbing a comparable amount of rebounds and blocking a similar amount of shots, despite Mutombo camping out in the paint a lot more.

Aside from a history of being on good teams, Wallace's individual accomplishments look good.

4-time defensive player of the year
3 all-nba second team selections
2 all-nba third team selections
5 all-defensive first team selections
1 all-defensive second team selections
4-time all-star
top 10 in MVP voting 3 times(as high as 7th)
March 2002 Eastern Conference Player Of The Month
2-time rebounding leader
led the league in blocks in 2002
1 of only 5 players in NBA history to lead the league in blocked shots and rebounding in the same season.

IMO, he deserves to be in the hall of fame, and so does Rodman.

Wallace has an impressive resume. I don't think anyone can argue that. But put the resume aside for a moment. The biggest problem on this board is people refuse to take things into context. Just for example, in college ball why is the leader in scoring never drafted in the first round? Or sometimes not even drafted? Its cuz of their competition. The guys wallace guarded were scrubs. He had a luxery in that he didn't need to worry about his man having big nights. He could leave his man cuz they sucked. I mean, were talking about him playing kwame brown and Michael Doleac type players ever night. He better be getting 3 blocks a night. I don't call that dominant. When all things are considered.

In rodman, you could basically put him on the opposing teams best offensive player and he'd shut him down. And without help. That's a luxery any coach would love to have. Id compare him to deion sanders in football. The man would just shut down the opposing teams best wide reciever. Wallace would be the corner on the other side. And he'd get more picks than sanders but that's cuz the offense was thrown sanders way. Its called context.

[Teanett]

Wallace has an impressive resume. I don't think anyone can argue that. But put the resume aside for a moment. The biggest problem on this board is people refuse to take things into context. Just for example, in college ball why is the leader in scoring never drafted in the first round? Or sometimes not even drafted? Its cuz of their competition. The guys wallace guarded were scrubs. He had a luxery in that he didn't need to worry about his man having big nights. He could leave his man cuz they sucked. I mean, were talking about him playing kwame brown and Michael Doleac type players ever night. He better be getting 3 blocks a night. I don't call that dominant. When all things are considered.

In rodman, you could basically put him on the opposing teams best offensive player and he'd shut him down. And without help. That's a luxery any coach would love to have. Id compare him to deion sanders in football. The man would just shut down the opposing teams best wide reciever. Wallace would be the corner on the other side. And he'd get more picks than sanders but that's cuz the offense was thrown sanders way. Its called context.

:applause:

[Bigsmoke]

you are 16 years old.
you only have seen ben and dennis on youtube.
you just started shaving.

I get to see all of Rodman's games for free here Hell, Rodman only played like 50 games each season so dont act like MJ and Pippen had a lot to do with why the Bulls were that good defensely :confusedshrug:

again, I'm not going by reputations, eras, championships whatever. I seen both of those guys play alot and i do believe Ben Wallace defense was more impressive. Dude was like top 5 or 10 in both blocks and steals for crying out loud and i'm not really a numbers freak like that.

[Bigsmoke]

Lol shawn bradley would be a top 10 center if he played during wallaces era. Maybe even top 5

lol ok

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wallace has an impressive resume. I don't think anyone can argue that. But put the resume aside for a moment. The biggest problem on this board is people refuse to take things into context. Just for example, in college ball why is the leader in scoring never drafted in the first round? Or sometimes not even drafted? Its cuz of their competition. The guys wallace guarded were scrubs. He had a luxery in that he didn't need to worry about his man having big nights. He could leave his man cuz they sucked. I mean, were talking about him playing kwame brown and Michael Doleac type players ever night. He better be getting 3 blocks a night. I don't call that dominant. When all things are considered.

In rodman, you could basically put him on the opposing teams best offensive player and he'd shut him down. And without help. That's a luxery any coach would love to have. Id compare him to deion sanders in football. The man would just shut down the opposing teams best wide reciever. Wallace would be the corner on the other side. And he'd get more picks than sanders but that's cuz the offense was thrown sanders way. Its called context.

There's a lot more to defense than 1 on 1 defense, which Rodman was superior at, but he didn't have Ben's ability to anchor a defense, and that's more valuable, IMO. There are certainly teams that Rodman could contribute more on, but in general, I think Wallace made a bigger impact defensively.

[Bigsmoke]

.

In rodman, you could basically put him on the opposing teams best offensive player and he'd shut him down. And without help. That's a luxery any coach would love to have. Id compare him to deion sanders in football. The man would just shut down the opposing teams best wide reciever. Wallace would be the corner on the other side. And he'd get more picks than sanders but that's cuz the offense was thrown sanders way. Its called context.


you gotta give Ben credict for anchoring an entire defense. hell, his shot blocking alone makes Ben a better help defender.

[Ruh-Roh]

My admittedly biased vote goes to Dennis Rodman.

[Clippersfan86]

He's obviously not the best, but better than a lot give him credit for.

As far as defensive impact, I'd take him over Rodman. Rodman was a better individual defender and in his younger years could guard perimeter players and he guarded centers well later, but Wallace anchored some dominant defensive teams.

Check out some of Ben's prime seasons.

2002- 13 rpg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the second round

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on that 2002 Pistons team and rightfully so. Stackhouse was the team's leading scorer, but was most notable for averaging 30 ppg on a 32 win team the previous season. In 2002, he dropped down to an inefficient 21 and less than 18 ppg on 32% shooting in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Ben averaged 16.1 rpg, 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg in the playoffs. This was pre-Rip, Chauncey, Tayshun and Sheed and Detroit were a 50 win team. They weren't as dominant defensively, but they were the 8th best defensive team in the league and you can credit the man who lead the league in rebounding and blocked shots that year, Ben Wa;;ace.

2003- 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben once again finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on his team, and rightfully so. Detroit improved to the 4th best defensive team and won 50 games despite having a mediocre offense. Detroit had acquired Billups and Hamilton during the offense and they drafted Prince(who didn't make much of an impact during the regular season, but made his presence known during the regular season), but the team's success started with Big Ben.

Ben once again stepped up in the playoffs averaging 16.3 rpg, 3.1 bpg and 2.5 spg and Detroit started their run of consecutive conference finals appearances.

2004- 12.4 rpg, 3 bpg, 1.8 spg, 54-28 record, won the championship

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on a team that went on to win a championship. They had already established themselves as a premier defensive team, and after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, they became the most dominant defensive team of all time, IMO. They finished the season as the 2nd best defensive team in the league(they were a below average offensive team)

Detroit won basketball games by playing a style that the casual fan would call ugly, they held teams to scores in the 70s regularly and it all started with Ben's intensity and defense.

Ben raised his game once again in the playoffs averaging 14.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.9 spg as Detroit's defense was even tougher than it was during the regular season.

2005- 12.2 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 1.4 spg, 54-28 record, advanced to the finals

Detroit was a top 3 defensive team again, and like the previous year, their defense became even tougher in the playoffs. They nearly won their second consecutive championship despite being a mediocre offensive team once again. Ben averaged 11.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.7 spg in the playoffs.

2006- 11.3 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 1.8 spg, 64-18 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben's last year in Detroit, and probably the first year that he wasn't their most valuable player. Despite that, he still anchored another top 5 defensive team and won his record-tying 4th defensive player of the year award.

2007- 10.7 rpg, 2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49-33 record

Ben signed a big free agent deal with Chicago, which turned out to be a mistake considering he was on the decline. However, he made a big impact in his first year. Chicago improved from 41-41 to 49-33 and went from the 7th best defensive team to the best defensive, yet another case of a team with Ben Wallace winning with a great defense and mediocre offense. He was also instrumental in Chicago's sweep of the Miami Heat in the first round. Despite Wade's injury and Shaq's decline, the Miami Heat had gone 16-7 in Wade's absence and O'Neal had played very well during that stretch. He put up solid numbers vs Ben(19/9, 56 FG%), but Ben frustrated him into offensive fouls throughout the series and clearly slowed down Shaq.

Ben has a history of anchoring dominant defenses and winning on teams that were mediocre offensive teams. I think he made a bigger impact defensively than both Rodman and Mutombo. I think his shot blocking made a larger impact on his team's defensive success than Rodman and he was a lot more active, versatile and mobile than Mutombo while still grabbing a comparable amount of rebounds and blocking a similar amount of shots, despite Mutombo camping out in the paint a lot more.

Aside from a history of being on good teams, Wallace's individual accomplishments look good.

4-time defensive player of the year
3 all-nba second team selections
2 all-nba third team selections
5 all-defensive first team selections
1 all-defensive second team selections
4-time all-star
top 10 in MVP voting 3 times(as high as 7th)
March 2002 Eastern Conference Player Of The Month
2-time rebounding leader
led the league in blocks in 2002
1 of only 5 players in NBA history to lead the league in blocked shots and rebounding in the same season.

IMO, he deserves to be in the hall of fame, and so does Rodman.


Best post in this thread IMO. People are so high on Rodman for his man to man D... then why is Blake Griffin a "terrible" defender??? It's a double standard. Blake is a very solid man to man defender but a very bad defensive anchor in the paint and bad shot blocker. On topic though.. Rodman could guard all positions but like ShaqAttack said he never was the defensive anchor in the paint or presence that Wallace was. Rodman was respected but not feared in the paint. Wallace was a 6'7 Center averaging 3.5+ bpg in his prime and teams were definitely thinking twice about attacking the rim. His presence inside of the lane was a huge deterrent and I remember how intimidating that Pistons defense lead by Wallace was.

SLAM and all kinds of mags were saying they were better than the Bad Boys defensively because of Wallace. There are 2 main areas of defense. Perimeter/Man defense and interior defense. Wallace was fantastic at both.. while Rodman was dominant in one and weak in the other. Wallace not only played the passing lanes for steals and had very good man defense BUT he also anchored the paint by blocking tons of shots and intimidating teams who go to the rim. I think Rodman is a deserving HOF and the best man defender of all time.. but let's not make it sound like Ben Wallace isn't at least top 5-10.

[olddangerfield]

Rodman by far, could guard all positions, amazing quick hands, proven 5-time champion with two teams, has the DPOY to back it up. Pretty much has all the hardware that an elite defender could want as well as ridiculous states (18 RPG for a couple of season).

Also even Ben Wallace couldn't have done this Malone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUT3GPlGwU

Travesty he's not in the hall. Write your NBA writers right now and tell them to vote him in.

[az00m]

watch these 2 videos of Rodman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp_4eGoBf_c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6TmVuXiTzM&feature=related

[Bigsmoke]

Rodman by far, could guard all positions, amazing quick hands, proven 5-time champion with two teams, has the DPOY to back it up. Pretty much has all the hardware that an elite defender could want as well as ridiculous states (18 RPG for a couple of season).

Also even Ben Wallace couldn't have done this Malone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUT3GPlGwU

Travesty he's not in the hall. Write your NBA writers right now and tell them to vote him in.

Ben Wallace has more DPOY awards and he was the "reason" why his team were the champions... not the supporting cast.

ok... Rodman won 5 titles with the Greatest of all time and with a super stacked Pistons team where he was like the 5th best player... good for him :rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
Mourning
Barkley
Malone
Bradley
Kemp
Johnson
Smits

Those are just some of the centers/PF's he has guarded.

He guarded Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen. The list goes on.

Duncan had a difficult time guarding a crippled 97-99 Barkley. Not to mention D-Rob in the 1993 WCSF

[Clippersfan86]

Ben Wallace has more DPOY awards and he was the "reason" why his team was the championship... not the supporting cast.

ok... Rodman won 5 titles with the Greatest of all time and with a super stacked Pistons team where he was like the 5th best player... good for him :rolleyes:

Yup. Rodman got to play with the best defensive team of all time where he wasn't even the main guy on offense or defense AND he got to play with the freaking Bulls. Not saying he didn't help but he was never the sole reason for anything or close to it. Ben Wallace WAS the Pistons defense. Sure Tashaun and Sheed were solid-good defenders but Ben Wallace almost by himself made that defense as dominant as it was.

[magnax1]

Best post in this thread IMO. People are so high on Rodman for his man to man D... then why is Blake Griffin a "terrible" defender??? It's a double standard. Blake is a very solid man to man defender but a very bad defensive anchor in the paint and bad shot blocker. On topic though.. Rodman could guard all positions but like ShaqAttack said he never was the defensive anchor in the paint or presence that Wallace was. Rodman was respected but not feared in the paint. Wallace was a 6'7 Center averaging 3.5+ bpg in his prime and teams were definitely thinking twice about attacking the rim. His presence inside of the lane was a huge deterrent and I remember how intimidating that Pistons defense lead by Wallace was.

SLAM and all kinds of mags were saying they were better than the Bad Boys defensively because of Wallace. There are 2 main areas of defense. Perimeter/Man defense and interior defense. Wallace was fantastic at both.. while Rodman was dominant in one and weak in the other. Wallace not only played the passing lanes for steals and had very good man defense BUT he also anchored the paint by blocking tons of shots and intimidating teams who go to the rim. I think Rodman is a deserving HOF and the best man defender of all time.. but let's not make it sound like Ben Wallace isn't at least top 5-10.
To say Rodman was a poor interior defender because he couldn't block shots is massively oversimplifying things. KG was never a great shotblocker, but was better then Wallace was at stopping guys from getting shots inside, and while Rodman wasn't near as good as KG, he was also good at that roaming kind of defense, which in many ways is better then shot blocking in terms of rim protection anyway.

[Clippersfan86]

To say Rodman was a poor interior defender because he couldn't block shots is massively oversimplifying things. KG was never a great shotblocker, but was better then Wallace was at stopping guys from getting shots inside, and while Rodman wasn't near as good as KG, he was also good at that roaming kind of defense, which in many ways is better then shot blocking in terms of rim protection anyway.

It's not shot blocking alone. It's interior defensive presence. NOBODY is scared to attack the rim on KG and Rodman in his prime. People were SCARED to go to the hoop on Wallace. Go on ESPN classic and watch some footage of the Pistons games in that era dude. People didn't even try to attack the rim vs the Pistons a lot of times. To say Rodman OR KG were anywhere near the deterrent that Ben Wallace was.. is either ignorance or a blatant lie. Even in KG's prime.. he wasn't a dominant interior defender. Great all around defender sure but don't make it sound like he was some hardcore paint enforcer. Dude is 220 pounds.

As a Clippers fan I watched undersized Elton Brand destroy KG many times in head to heads. KG had a better all around game but Brand owned him when they played each other. I truly think people aren't respecting just how dominant Wallace was.

[momo]

Not that he is a goat defender candidate but has anyone mentioned Coop, even just once in this thread? Can coop get some dap?

[Rake2204]

He's obviously not the best, but better than a lot give him credit for.

As far as defensive impact, I'd take him over Rodman. Rodman was a better individual defender and in his younger years could guard perimeter players and he guarded centers well later, but Wallace anchored some dominant defensive teams.

Check out some of Ben's prime seasons.

2002- 13 rpg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the second round

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on that 2002 Pistons team and rightfully so. Stackhouse was the team's leading scorer, but was most notable for averaging 30 ppg on a 32 win team the previous season. In 2002, he dropped down to an inefficient 21 and less than 18 ppg on 32% shooting in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Ben averaged 16.1 rpg, 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg in the playoffs. This was pre-Rip, Chauncey, Tayshun and Sheed and Detroit were a 50 win team. They weren't as dominant defensively, but they were the 8th best defensive team in the league and you can credit the man who lead the league in rebounding and blocked shots that year, Ben Wa;;ace.

2003- 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 50-32 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben once again finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on his team, and rightfully so. Detroit improved to the 4th best defensive team and won 50 games despite having a mediocre offense. Detroit had acquired Billups and Hamilton during the offense and they drafted Prince(who didn't make much of an impact during the regular season, but made his presence known during the regular season), but the team's success started with Big Ben.

Ben once again stepped up in the playoffs averaging 16.3 rpg, 3.1 bpg and 2.5 spg and Detroit started their run of consecutive conference finals appearances.

2004- 12.4 rpg, 3 bpg, 1.8 spg, 54-28 record, won the championship

Ben finished higher in MVP voting than anyone else on a team that went on to win a championship. They had already established themselves as a premier defensive team, and after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, they became the most dominant defensive team of all time, IMO. They finished the season as the 2nd best defensive team in the league(they were a below average offensive team)

Detroit won basketball games by playing a style that the casual fan would call ugly, they held teams to scores in the 70s regularly and it all started with Ben's intensity and defense.

Ben raised his game once again in the playoffs averaging 14.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.9 spg as Detroit's defense was even tougher than it was during the regular season.

2005- 12.2 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 1.4 spg, 54-28 record, advanced to the finals

Detroit was a top 3 defensive team again, and like the previous year, their defense became even tougher in the playoffs. They nearly won their second consecutive championship despite being a mediocre offensive team once again. Ben averaged 11.3 rpg, 2.4 bpg and 1.7 spg in the playoffs.

2006- 11.3 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 1.8 spg, 64-18 record, advanced to the conference finals.

Ben's last year in Detroit, and probably the first year that he wasn't their most valuable player. Despite that, he still anchored another top 5 defensive team and won his record-tying 4th defensive player of the year award.

2007- 10.7 rpg, 2 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49-33 record

Ben signed a big free agent deal with Chicago, which turned out to be a mistake considering he was on the decline. However, he made a big impact in his first year. Chicago improved from 41-41 to 49-33 and went from the 7th best defensive team to the best defensive, yet another case of a team with Ben Wallace winning with a great defense and mediocre offense. He was also instrumental in Chicago's sweep of the Miami Heat in the first round. Despite Wade's injury and Shaq's decline, the Miami Heat had gone 16-7 in Wade's absence and O'Neal had played very well during that stretch. He put up solid numbers vs Ben(19/9, 56 FG%), but Ben frustrated him into offensive fouls throughout the series and clearly slowed down Shaq.

Ben has a history of anchoring dominant defenses and winning on teams that were mediocre offensive teams. I think he made a bigger impact defensively than both Rodman and Mutombo. I think his shot blocking made a larger impact on his team's defensive success than Rodman and he was a lot more active, versatile and mobile than Mutombo while still grabbing a comparable amount of rebounds and blocking a similar amount of shots, despite Mutombo camping out in the paint a lot more.

Aside from a history of being on good teams, Wallace's individual accomplishments look good.

4-time defensive player of the year
3 all-nba second team selections
2 all-nba third team selections
5 all-defensive first team selections
1 all-defensive second team selections
4-time all-star
top 10 in MVP voting 3 times(as high as 7th)
March 2002 Eastern Conference Player Of The Month
2-time rebounding leader
led the league in blocks in 2002
1 of only 5 players in NBA history to lead the league in blocked shots and rebounding in the same season.

IMO, he deserves to be in the hall of fame, and so does Rodman.
I have chosen to quote your original post because I agree with your sentiments and I believe your response was very well stated.

I have provided you with one imaginary reputation point. +1


Lol shawn bradley would be a top 10 center if he played during wallaces era. Maybe even top 5
With respect, I am literally uncertain as to whether you are truly being serious. I can't tell if that "lol" means "get ready for this joke coming" or "you make me laugh because you think Shawn Bradley would not have been a top 10 center in the 2000's."

[magnax1]

It's not shot blocking alone. It's interior defensive presence. NOBODY is scared to attack the rim on KG and Rodman in his prime. People were SCARED to go to the hoop on Wallace. Go on ESPN classic and watch some footage of the Pistons games in that era dude. People didn't even try to attack the rim vs the Pistons a lot of times. To say Rodman OR KG were anywhere near the deterrent that Ben Wallace was.. is either ignorance or a blatant lie. Even in KG's prime.. he wasn't a dominant interior defender. Great all around defender sure but don't make it sound like he was some hardcore paint enforcer. Dude is 220 pounds.

As a Clippers fan I watched undersized Elton Brand destroy KG many times in head to heads. KG had a better all around game but Brand owned him when they played each other. I truly think people aren't respecting just how dominant Wallace was.
I'm pretty sure you're just blatantly wrong. Wallace had some dominant defensive pieces around him, and KG has done just as much with less in Boston on defense. Guys like Wallace are nice, but shot blockers like him also run the risk of fouls, and is as much a last line of defense. Duncan actually does shot blocking better then anyone because he barely ever fouled and didn't just wait for players to come to the rim like a lot of shot blockers.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm pretty sure you're just blatantly wrong. Wallace had some dominant defensive pieces around him, and KG has done just as much with less in Boston on defense. Guys like Wallace are nice, but shot blockers like him also run the risk of fouls, and is as much a last line of defense. Duncan actually does shot blocking better then anyone because he barely ever fouled and didn't just wait for players to come to the rim like a lot of shot blockers.

Lol. KG, Perkins, Rondo are MUCH better all around defensively than Wallace, Prince and Sheed. Don't even try to bullshit dude. Celtics had WAY more capable defenders like Tony Allen off the bench too that are considered elite defenders. Pistons defense was better with much less, so you're the one who's blatantly wrong. Name off some of these so called elite Piston defenders next to Wallace? Prince was the only other really good one. Sheed was very solid but nothing special.

[97 bulls]

I'm pretty sure you're just blatantly wrong. Wallace had some dominant defensive pieces around him, and KG has done just as much with less in Boston on defense. Guys like Wallace are nice, but shot blockers like him also run the risk of fouls, and is as much a last line of defense. Duncan actually does shot blocking better then anyone because he barely ever fouled and didn't just wait for players to come to the rim like a lot of shot blockers.
This is a great point. Shotblocking and steals are a terrible way to gauge how great a defender a player is. Hell magic and iverson were great at playing the lane and getting steals. We gonna call them great defensively? And I still say wallace had the luxery of playing against terrible centers. I mean it was literrally 4 on 5 out there most nights. Then you factor in that prince, r. Wallace, billups, and hamilton were either great to solid defensively.

And while rodman wasn't a great shotblocker, he was great at drawing charges. Id say he'd draw about 2 charges a game. Which is even more valuable than blocks cuz that's an instant turnover.

[97 bulls]

I have chosen to quote your original post because I agree with your sentiments and I believe your response was very well stated.

I have provided you with one imaginary reputation point. +1


With respect, I am literally uncertain as to whether you are truly being serious. I can't tell if that "lol" means "get ready for this joke coming" or "you make me laugh because you think Shawn Bradley would not have been a top 10 center in the 2000's."
Pick a year any year in wallaces prime from 02 to 06. Im sure shawn bradley would be the tenth best center or around the 10th best center in the league. When in the 90s he was one of the worse. And he was as good a shotblocker as wallace

[jlip]

I'd say dennis rodman is better than ben.

Guarding the 1
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/imagenes/magic_jordan2.jpg
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81343453.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54895A27DCA4B8C2A25 7BA853D0BB62595AC5E465E4EE404409


This is from the '96 season. When Magic had this brief comeback he was considered a power forward.

[az00m]

This is from the '96 season. When Magic had this brief comeback he was considered a power forward.
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81344210.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486E50AEB2CFB3BA8B 40B6F10B20BE19BE87A8642F1D66A797

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDfmYjf0iY4/TVgL2U3qEhI/AAAAAAAACpw/vEwNGmyQ6gE/s1600/rodman2.jpg

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81344210.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486E50AEB2CFB3BA8B 40B6F10B20BE19BE87A8642F1D66A797

he guarded magic in his prime as well as jordan.

[jlip]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81343453.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54895A27DCA4B8C2A25 7BA853D0BB62595AC5E465E4EE404409
Cool.

[Rake2204]

Pick a year any year in wallaces prime from 02 to 06. Im sure shawn bradley would be the tenth best center or around the 10th best center in the league. When in the 90s he was one of the worse. And he was as good a shotblocker as wallace
I feel like I'm being set up for some kind of practical joke. I honestly still can't tell if you're serious or just trying to string me along.

If serious, I ask a question with honest respect: a while ago I recall reading a post or two here by someone claiming Luc Longley would have averaged 20 and 12 in today's NBA. Was that you?

In the case of Shawn Bradley, if the heavy competition of the 90's was what held him back, shouldn't he have feasted on Felton Spencer, Yinka Dare, and old Mark West? I understand that by asking such a question, I'm sort of walking into a statement of how Spencer, Dare, and West would have dominated today's NBA as well but I'm just struggling to wrap my head around this idea. Was there something you saw in Bradley's offensive arsenal you felt just was never unleashed? Would his stamina and penchant for committing fouls suddenly become non-issues in the new millenium?

I'll say, he was 30 years old during the '03 season (a year deep into the "Wallace Prime" era). He was not anywhere within a realm of being dominant. He played 81 games. He averaged 6 and 6. He was two years older than Wallace. Surely, even Shawn Bradley had a prime, and it came in the 90's. He had a season where he averaged 13, 8, and 3.5 (1997). I'm assuming you're saying he would have done that and more every year of the 2000's if he was 25 years old for every year of the 2000's.

Even with that, I'm wondering if maybe we're using Bradley's statistics to hold him up, which as has been mentioned, can be dangerous when trying to truly gauge how good a player may have been. There's a reason Shawn Bradley had only one season of 30+ minutes per game. He wasn't good. He couldn't stay on the floor. We say statistically he was as good of a shot blocker as Ben Wallace. I'll say he was good at standing with his hands up, often blocking or challenging shots, but then often committing quick fouls and heading back to the bench. Is it good shotblocking if you snag 2 or 3 of them a game in the 20 minutes you can be on the floor due to foul trouble from trying to block shots? Were NBA players afraid to attack the basket due to Bradley's inside prowess? I guess we'll never know, but they sure didn't play like it.

I suppose we'd also have to address Bradley's decline. What happened? He averaged 8 and 6 as a 27 year old in the year 2000 (near the end for Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing and company). Did his game decline at a more rapid rate than the opposition's skill level between the years 1998-2002? To the point where, even in a completely watered-down-with-no-legit-bigmen NBA a 30-year-old Bradley couldn't even average 6 true rebounds a night (5.9)? Are we just saying, in the one to maybe three years of semi-proficient basketball he played, Bradley could have been a top 10 guy in the 2000's (or around top 10?) If so, averaging 13, 8, and 3.5 in '97 would have also put him "right around" the top ten for that time as well. And again, if you're judging this off of apparent skill and not statistics, then I guess I can't really argue with that. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

In summary, I do not believe there would have been any difference in Shawn Bradley's production, had he been born in 1972 (like he was) or 1982. He would have been plagued by the same deficiencies that haunted him in the 90's. He didn't suck because David Robinson made him suck. He sucked because he sucked.

[magnax1]

Lol. KG, Perkins, Rondo are MUCH better all around defensively than Wallace, Prince and Sheed. Don't even try to bullshit dude. Celtics had WAY more capable defenders like Tony Allen off the bench too that are considered elite defenders. Pistons defense was better with much less, so you're the one who's blatantly wrong. Name off some of these so called elite Piston defenders next to Wallace? Prince was the only other really good one. Sheed was very solid but nothing special.
Sheed-Best post defender in the league
Billups-Best defensive PG
Prince-all defensive
I think that's more then Rondo, best defensive PG, and Perkins, who is a top defensive center, though definitely not the best.

[magnax1]

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81344210.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486E50AEB2CFB3BA8B 40B6F10B20BE19BE87A8642F1D66A797

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDfmYjf0iY4/TVgL2U3qEhI/AAAAAAAACpw/vEwNGmyQ6gE/s1600/rodman2.jpg

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81344210.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5486E50AEB2CFB3BA8B 40B6F10B20BE19BE87A8642F1D66A797

he guarded magic in his prime as well as jordan.
That's freaky how he stares him in the eyes
:lol
looks like he's gone mad

[Reggie43]

Ben Wallace really is overrated as hell here. How many accolades would he get if he played in the 90s? Elite big men dunking on his head left and right would surely diminish his defensive reputation especially because of his lack of great individual/post defense. The teams he played for often had good team defenders that covered the flaws he had on defense.

[az00m]

Shaq straight owned him in the finals. Just no one else stepped it up sadly.

[Showtime]

No.

[97 bulls]

I feel like I'm being set up for some kind of practical joke. I honestly still can't tell if you're serious or just trying to string me along.

If serious, I ask a question with honest respect: a while ago I recall reading a post or two here by someone claiming Luc Longley would have averaged 20 and 12 in today's NBA. Was that you?

In the case of Shawn Bradley, if the heavy competition of the 90's was what held him back, shouldn't he have feasted on Felton Spencer, Yinka Dare, and old Mark West? I understand that by asking such a question, I'm sort of walking into a statement of how Spencer, Dare, and West would have dominated today's NBA as well but I'm just struggling to wrap my head around this idea. Was there something you saw in Bradley's offensive arsenal you felt just was never unleashed? Would his stamina and penchant for committing fouls suddenly become non-issues in the new millenium?

I'll say, he was 30 years old during the '03 season (a year deep into the "Wallace Prime" era). He was not anywhere within a realm of being dominant. He played 81 games. He averaged 6 and 6. He was two years older than Wallace. Surely, even Shawn Bradley had a prime, and it came in the 90's. He had a season where he averaged 13, 8, and 3.5 (1997). I'm assuming you're saying he would have done that and more every year of the 2000's if he was 25 years old for every year of the 2000's.

Even with that, I'm wondering if maybe we're using Bradley's statistics to hold him up, which as has been mentioned, can be dangerous when trying to truly gauge how good a player may have been. There's a reason Shawn Bradley had only one season of 30+ minutes per game. He wasn't good. He couldn't stay on the floor. We say statistically he was as good of a shot blocker as Ben Wallace. I'll say he was good at standing with his hands up, often blocking or challenging shots, but then often committing quick fouls and heading back to the bench. Is it good shotblocking if you snag 2 or 3 of them a game in the 20 minutes you can be on the floor due to foul trouble from trying to block shots? Were NBA players afraid to attack the basket due to Bradley's inside prowess? I guess we'll never know, but they sure didn't play like it.

I suppose we'd also have to address Bradley's decline. What happened? He averaged 8 and 6 as a 27 year old in the year 2000 (near the end for Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing and company). Did his game decline at a more rapid rate than the opposition's skill level between the years 1998-2002? To the point where, even in a completely watered-down-with-no-legit-bigmen NBA a 30-year-old Bradley couldn't even average 6 true rebounds a night (5.9)? Are we just saying, in the one to maybe three years of semi-proficient basketball he played, Bradley could have been a top 10 guy in the 2000's (or around top 10?) If so, averaging 13, 8, and 3.5 in '97 would have also put him "right around" the top ten for that time as well. And again, if you're judging this off of apparent skill and not statistics, then I guess I can't really argue with that. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

In summary, I do not believe there would have been any difference in Shawn Bradley's production, had he been born in 1972 (like he was) or 1982. He would have been plagued by the same deficiencies that haunted him in the 90's. He didn't suck because David Robinson made him suck. He sucked because he sucked.
first off rake, in no way shape or form have or would I ever think that luc longley would've avg 20 and 10 in any era. Maybe 13 9 but that's it. Going back to the shawn bradley question, ill check.

[Clippersfan86]

Sheed-Best post defender in the league
Billups-Best defensive PG
Prince-all defensive
I think that's more then Rondo, best defensive PG, and Perkins, who is a top defensive center, though definitely not the best.

Lol no... just no. Billups was never a great defender let alone the best defensive PG. Sheed best post defender in the league!? LOL. Sheed never made a single all defensive team and was never in the running for DPOY. I get the feeling I'm being trolled because you can't possibly be this retarded.

Perkins is the best interior defender in the game next to Dwight Howard when healthy... Rondo is a VERY good defensive PG, KG is still a very good defender and Tony Allen is considered an elite perimeter defender even now out of his prime. Not to mention a tough defender like James Posey off the bench. Ben Wallace had 2 solid-good defenders next to him in Prince who was good.. and Sheed who was a little better than average. Ben Wallace was a defensive anchor we haven't since since maybe Hakeem or Russell. He anchored the entire defense.

The Pistons didn't just beat the Lakers in the finals that were STACKED with Kobe, Shaq,Malone and Payton but they creamed them 4-1 and the 1 game they almost won. They nearly swept the Lakers. Sure Shaq was in the tail end of his prime but they were still a very dominant team. Plus nobody talks about how the Pistons went to like 5 or 6 straight ECF. They were a borderline dynasty despite only 1 title.

Btw as a team the Pistons were one of the top 5 best defenses of all time. I'm not trying to make it seem like nobody else defended well. Individually though.. Only Ben and Tashaun were great defenders.

[Clippersfan86]

The Pistons in 2004 held 8 straight teams below 80 points. 4 straight teams under 70! They also had the top defense in the league by allowing only 94 ppg average all season. They broke countless defensive records with Wallace as their clear cut anchor and best defender (Only all star player that year too).

Do you realize how big of a deal it is to hold 4 straight teams under 70?


The Pistons beat Los Angeles by 20 in their first NBA Finals appearance together at The Palace of Auburn Hills since 1989 to take a 2–1 lead in the series. The 68 points scored by the Lakers set a franchise record for the lowest number of points scored in a playoff game.

The following year the Pistons barely lost to the Spurs in game 7 of the finals.

[az00m]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The Pistons in 2004 held 8 straight teams below 80 points. 4 straight teams under 70! They also had the top defense in the league by allowing only 94 ppg average all season. They broke countless defensive records with Wallace as their clear cut anchor and best defender (Only all star player that year too).

Do you realize how big of a deal it is to hold 4 straight teams under 70?


The Pistons beat Los Angeles by 20 in their first NBA Finals appearance together at The Palace of Auburn Hills since 1989 to take a 2

[Rake2204]

first off rake, in no way shape or form have or would I ever think that luc longley would've avg 20 and 10 in any era. Maybe 13 9 but that's it. Going back to the shawn bradley question, ill check.
I apologize for the Luc Longley comment. At least we're on the same page in that regard, ha.


The Pistons in 2004 held 8 straight teams below 80 points. 4 straight teams under 70!

For whatever it's worth, I believe it was 5 consecutive games in which they held teams below 70 points. Further, while leading 85-69 in the waning seconds against the New Jersey Nets of what would have been their 6th consecutive team they'd have held under 70, I recall Aaron Williams finishing a layup inside and pumping his fist in celebration, apparently knowing he'd just ended Detroit's 60-point streak.

Here's a gamelog from the 2004 season (the streak begins on March 3rd): http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2004/gamelog/

Also I have to ask, where might you be deriving these statistics from? Because, as Azoom mentioned, the Pistons gave up a league-low (tied with San Antonio) 84.3 ppg during the 2004 season, not 94 (though I could see this being a simple typo on your part).


Shaq straight owned him in the finals. Just no one else stepped it up sadly.
I'm not trying to support a claim of Ben Wallace being the best defensive player of all-time, because I do not find that to be the case. However, even then, I'm not sure I can really hold it against Ben in his inability to contain Shaquille O'Neal. I mean, if he were to have held Shaq to a 10ppg scoring average against him for his career, I think that could help support an "all-time defender" cause. But O'Neal treaded on everybody. It's not a lot different to me than not really holding it against Bill Russell for allowing Wilt to go off against him.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Ben Wallace was NOT an elite man to man defender. He would get raped by Shaq on a regular basis and when the Pistons played those Lakers/Heat teams the plan was always to let Shaq get his and shut everyone else down. Ben Wallace was terrible undersized and got raped by anyone who had a distinct height advantage over him. Terrific all around defender in his prime though.

[Rake2204]

Ben Wallace was NOT an elite man to man defender. He would get raped by Shaq on a regular basis and when the Pistons played those Lakers/Heat teams the plan was always to let Shaq get his and shut everyone else down. Ben Wallace was terrible undersized and got raped by anyone who had a distinct height advantage over him. Terrific all around defender in his prime though.
Yeah, there's no disputing Shaquille O'Neal would go to work when single covered by Ben Wallace. You've got Detroit's 2004 Finals gameplan down pat. I'm glad it worked. But again, I sort of feel like Wallace is being judged on his man-to-man defense based off of being taken advantage of by a 350 pound, Hall of Fame center. I feel it would be similar to stating that David Robinson's defensive ability was lackluster because Hakeem Olajuwon famously went to work on him in 1995 (Hakeem did the same to Malone, Barkley, and the aforementioned O'Neal in that same playoffs). Sometimes defenders are overmatched, no matter who they are.

Would the greatest NBA defender of all-time have been able to handle Shaquille O'Neal in the post? I'm not really sure. Did other people guard O'Neal better than Ben? Absolutely. Is Ben Wallace the best defender of all-time? I've never considered it. But is it fair to gauge a player's defensive ability based on how well the best player at his position performed against him? Not entirely. In that case, every shooting guard in the 90's sucked at defense because Michael Jordan trounced everyone. Some may have sucked less than others but according to this train of thought they all would have sucked nonetheless (so much so that giving up a 27.3ppg NBA Finals scoring average to MJ was considered a success).

[Bigsmoke]

Ben Wallace was NOT an elite man to man defender. He would get raped by Shaq on a regular basis and when the Pistons played those Lakers/Heat teams the plan was always to let Shaq get his and shut everyone else down. Ben Wallace was terrible undersized and got raped by anyone who had a distinct height advantage over him. Terrific all around defender in his prime though.

Shaq was Shaq. Mutombo couldn't defend Shaq any better and he was 7'2. Hell, if Ben Wallace wasnt a good man to man defender then why was he able to bother Tim Duncan in the Finals? Ben Wallace was by far the best post defender in the NBA in his prime.

[Bigsmoke]

Yeah, there's no disputing Shaquille O'Neal would go to work when single covered by Ben Wallace. You've got Detroit's 2004 Finals gameplan down pat. I'm glad it worked. But again, I sort of feel like Wallace is being judged on his man-to-man defense based off of being taken advantage of by a 350 pound, Hall of Fame center. I feel it would be similar to stating that David Robinson's defensive ability was lackluster because Hakeem Olajuwon famously went to work on him in 1995 (Hakeem did the same to Malone, Barkley, and the aforementioned O'Neal in that same playoffs). Sometimes defenders are overmatched, no matter who they are.

.
thats my point. some of these guys are called superstars for a reason. Lets see..

Rodman got eaten up by James Worthy before
David Robinson got smoked by Hakeem
Kareem got own by Moses Malone
MJ was defending Isiah Thomas in game 6 in the 1989 ECF and Thomas won the game with 33 points.

Stars be stars.

[Teanett]

Shaq was Shaq. Mutombo couldn't defend Shaq any better and he was 7'2. Hell, if Ben Wallace wasnt a good man to man defender then why was he able to bother Tim Duncan in the Finals? Ben Wallace was by far the best post defender in the NBA in his prime.

mutombo was better. shaq was even a little past his prime in 2004.
shaq vs mutombo 57% (mvp-shaq)
shaq vs ben 63%

[az00m]

Shaq was Shaq. Mutombo couldn't defend Shaq any better and he was 7'2. Hell, if Ben Wallace wasnt a good man to man defender then why was he able to bother Tim Duncan in the Finals? Ben Wallace was by far the best post defender in the NBA in his prime.

I can name 5 better post defenders off the top of my head than ben wallace
Hakeem
Russell
Rodman
Motumabo
Duncan

[Gifted Mind]

Definitely not ever. Bill Russell without a doubt deserves that title. But I would probably agree he was the best defender in the 2000's decade.

[necya]

Shaq was Shaq. Mutombo couldn't defend Shaq any better and he was 7'2. Hell, if Ben Wallace wasnt a good man to man defender then why was he able to bother Tim Duncan in the Finals? Ben Wallace was by far the best post defender in the NBA in his prime.

you just don't know what you are talking about, please stop.

Mutombo defended very well on Shaq during his prime, like he did on Olajuwon and Robinson making their stats fallen to 20-22pts. 2001 Mutombo is not part of Mutombo's prime. he was still named DPOY because 00's were pathetic years for the nba so here wwas not so competition. his award of 94-95 is much more valuable.
when i think about the names of the DPOY from the 80's and 90's and then those from the 00's, there is a huge gap.

Wallace never had to defend good interiors.

[Teanett]

i forgot to add something significant:
shaq scored 5+ points more than his season avg vs ben.
or can we say, he tore him a new one.

[Nick Young]

Shaq shitted on him for like 26/14 60% over an entire series back in 2004, so no

[Nick Young]

Shaq was Shaq. Mutombo couldn't defend Shaq any better and he was 7'2. Hell, if Ben Wallace wasnt a good man to man defender then why was he able to bother Tim Duncan in the Finals? Ben Wallace was by far the best post defender in the NBA in his prime.
Do you mean the finals that Wallace lost where Tim Duncan won finals MVP?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people, rewriting hsitory

[az00m]

I consider the 1999 spurs better than the pistons due to the fact that they held teams to a .402% field goal the pistons were .413.

Also 95 to 95.4 defense rating.

[Bigsmoke]

Do you mean the finals that Wallace lost where Tim Duncan won finals MVP?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people, rewriting hsitory

Look at Tim Duncan's numbers before the Finals. Duncan won the MVP because he was also great in other areas besides scoring. Duncan was 5 for 17 and 10 of 27 in 2 of those games. He defended him better than anyone else even did but he doesnt get any credit because The Spurs won?

so basically, Ben Wallace cant defend that well because he didnt lock down 2 of the top 10 players of all times. great logic.

[Nick Young]

Look at Tim Duncan's numbers before the Finals. Duncan won the MVP because he was also great in other areas besides scoring. Duncan was 5 for 17 and 10 of 27 in 2 of those games. He defended him better than anyone else even did but he doesnt get any credit because The Spurs won?

so basically, Ben Wallace cant defend that well because he didnt lock down 2 of the top 10 players of all times. great logic.
Shaq used to shit on Duncan and shut him down defensively. HE defended Duncan better than anyone ever did. Again, stop rewriting history.

The other 5 games Duncan raped Ben Wallace. So Wallace can stop Duncan for 2 out of 7 games and gets raped in the others and suddenly he's the best Duncan defender of all time, completely ignoring Shaq's entire body of work against thee big fundamental?:facepalm

You're rewriting history again kid.

[Bigsmoke]

you just don't know what you are talking about, please stop.

Mutombo defended very well on Shaq during his prime, like he did on Olajuwon and Robinson making their stats fallen to 20-22pts. 2001 Mutombo is not part of Mutombo's prime. he was still named DPOY because 00's were pathetic years for the nba so here wwas not so competition. his award of 94-95 is much more valuable.
when i think about the names of the DPOY from the 80's and 90's and then those from the 00's, there is a huge gap.

Wallace never had to defend good interiors.

Prime or not, Mutombo was the defensive player of the year. Hell, He was already 25 years old as a rookie. He was averaging like 1 less block and like 1 less rebound on a team with Tyrone Hill and his much not been THAT much out of his prime.

[Bigsmoke]

Shaq used to shit on Duncan and shut him down defensively. HE defended Duncan better than anyone ever did. Again, stop rewriting history.

The other 5 games Duncan raped Ben Wallace. So Wallace can stop Duncan for 2 out of 7 games and gets raped in the others and suddenly he's the best Duncan defender of all time, completely ignoring Shaq's entire body of work against thee big fundamental?:facepalm

You're rewriting history again kid.

in the playoffs?

wasnt Horry the one defending Tim Duncan a lot of those times. I do remember Tim Duncan outperforming Shaq in both in 1999 and in 2003 playoffs

Tim Duncan outplayed Shaq in 1999
Tim did great in 2002 and 2003
Tim outplayed Shaq in 2003
Tim did great in 2004
Tim scored 40 before in that 2008 series

dude shut up.

[Rake2204]

i forgot to add something significant:
shaq scored 5+ points more than his season avg vs ben.
or can we say, he tore him a new one.
Shaquille O'Neal definitely dominated Ben Wallace but I don't believe it has as much to do with Wallace's lackluster D as it does with Shaquille O'Neal's superior dominance. For most viewers, it answered the question a lot of us had always been wondering, "What would happen if a team's gameplan was to cover Shaq with just one defender?" As it turns out, with single coverage, Shaq would score a high volume of points at an excellent percentage (hence why teams always collapsed their D on O'Neal).

For whatever reason, whether it be age, stamina, or general team disarray, O'Neal could not sustain this pace throughout the 2004 NBA Finals. To the point, he'd score early and often in that championship round before eventually sort of melding into the game. Either way, the Pistons may have known this would be exactly what would happen. Or they were just plain lucky it did.

As a lot of you guys know, one of the best things about Shaquille O'Neal's inside presence came in his ability to find an open shooter when he'd draw double and triple teams. Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, and Kareem Rush all certainly enjoyed this aspect of playing for the Lakers.

So, I'm trying to think of how to put this. . .the Pistons would have loved it if Ben Wallace could have put the clamps on O'Neal and held him below his season averages. I think they knew that'd be impossible. I think they also knew Shaq would feast on single coverage, but I believe that was all a part of the plan. I think it was between allowing Shaq to to score five more points per game than normal or doubling down and freeing up all of Shaq's teammates for an abundance of open looks.

As a Pistons guy, I am most familiar with the Pistons/Lakers series (as opposed to exact defensive plans of the Nets, Sixers, and Pacers who came before them) so I can't speculate precisely on the Davis', Smits, Mutombos, and MacCullochs of the world on a large scale. Did those teams ever use single coverage on O'Neal? I don't recall any one of those players having a particular impact on O'Neal in this regard.

Out of honest curiosity, which NBA defenders do you guys believe would have been able to contain Mr. O'Neal under a single coverage circumstance? (That's not a rhetorical question)

[Clippersfan86]

I apologize for the Luc Longley comment. At least we're on the same page in that regard, ha.


For whatever it's worth, I believe it was 5 consecutive games in which they held teams below 70 points. Further, while leading 85-69 in the waning seconds against the New Jersey Nets of what would have been their 6th consecutive team they'd have held under 70, I recall Aaron Williams finishing a layup inside and pumping his fist in celebration, apparently knowing he'd just ended Detroit's 60-point streak.

Here's a gamelog from the 2004 season (the streak begins on March 3rd): http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2004/gamelog/

Also I have to ask, where might you be deriving these statistics from? Because, as Azoom mentioned, the Pistons gave up a league-low (tied with San Antonio) 84.3 ppg during the 2004 season, not 94 (though I could see this being a simple typo on your part).


I'm not trying to support a claim of Ben Wallace being the best defensive player of all-time, because I do not find that to be the case. However, even then, I'm not sure I can really hold it against Ben in his inability to contain Shaquille O'Neal. I mean, if he were to have held Shaq to a 10ppg scoring average against him for his career, I think that could help support an "all-time defender" cause. But O'Neal treaded on everybody. It's not a lot different to me than not really holding it against Bill Russell for allowing Wilt to go off against him.

Yes it was a typo. I forgot where I looked up PPG allowed though and the streak. Nonetheless it gets even more impressive if it's 5 almost 6 straight like you said.

[Teanett]

Shaquille O'Neal definitely dominated Ben Wallace but I don't believe it has as much to do with Wallace's lackluster D as it does with Shaquille O'Neal's superior dominance. For most viewers, it answered the question a lot of us had always been wondering, "What would happen if a team's gameplan was to cover Shaq with just one defender?" As it turns out, with single coverage, Shaq would score a high volume of points at an excellent percentage (hence why teams always collapsed their D on O'Neal).

For whatever reason, whether it be age, stamina, or general team disarray, O'Neal could not sustain this pace throughout the 2004 NBA Finals. To the point, he'd score early and often in that championship round before eventually sort of melding into the game. Either way, the Pistons may have known this would be exactly what would happen. Or they were just plain lucky it did.

As a lot of you guys know, one of the best things about Shaquille O'Neal's inside presence came in his ability to find an open shooter when he'd draw double and triple teams. Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, and Kareem Rush all certainly enjoyed this aspect of playing for the Lakers.

So, I'm trying to think of how to put this. . .the Pistons would have loved it if Ben Wallace could have put the clamps on O'Neal and held him below his season averages. I think they knew that'd be impossible. I think they also knew Shaq would feast on single coverage, but I believe that was all a part of the plan. I think it was between allowing Shaq to to score five more points per game than normal or doubling down and freeing up all of Shaq's teammates for an abundance of open looks.

As a Pistons guy, I am most familiar with the Pistons/Lakers series (as opposed to exact defensive plans of the Nets, Sixers, and Pacers who came before them) so I can't speculate precisely on the Davis', Smits, Mutombos, and MacCullochs of the world on a large scale. Did those teams ever use single coverage on O'Neal? I don't recall any one of those players having a particular impact on O'Neal in this regard.

Out of honest curiosity, which NBA defenders do you guys believe would have been able to contain Mr. O'Neal under a single coverage circumstance? (That's not a rhetorical question)

sorry man, but the pistons winning defensive strategy had one name: kobe bryant. he shot 38% but managed to attempt 29 more shots than shaq!!! stupidity!

mutombo had shaq single-covered and kept him close to his season average.
sabonis also did a decent job as did yao.

[Clippersfan86]

sorry man, but the pistons winning defensive strategy had one name: kobe bryant. he shot 38% but managed to attempt 29 more shots than shaq!!! stupidity!

mutombo had shaq single-covered and kept him close to his season average.
sabonis also did a decent job as did yao.

I don't get why you and a few others are beating the dead horse about Shaq. Wallace is 6'7 240.... if Shaq the strongest, heaviest and most physically dominant player of all time COULDN'T overpower him all game.. Shaq would be pretty pathetic. How did David Robinson do vs Shaq? Didn't Shaq's career highs come against Robinson? Didn't he always have his big games when he was extra motivated playing against him? You guys saying Mutombo stopped him are full of shit. EVERYONE at the time got destroyed by Shaq. He was the most dominant player OF ALL TIME physically.

Even as a rookie he was owning the leagues best Centers. The only guy who really schooled Shaq regularly was Hakeem and that had nothing to do with physical gifts... but skill and post moves Shaq couldn't defend. Ben Wallace was a superb defender who I think is being underrated here. He wasn't one dimensional on defense like most guys. Even Rodman was mostly one dimensional. There are 3 main dimensions to defense.

Man to man defense/perimeter defense
Interior defense/post defense
Off the ball defense/playing passing lanes/weakside help

Wallace was a very good man to man defender, an elite post defender as well as an elite off the ball defender with all his steals and weakside shots he blocked. Rodman.. elite man to man defender/perimeter defender, good interior defender, average off the ball defender.

Create a list of your "best" defenders with this formula and it helps put it into perspective. Defense isn't only one aspect. Just like offense right? Some guys can shoot lights out but can't attack the rim etc. Think of Melo vs Durant for example.

[Teanett]

I don't get why you and a few others are beating the dead horse about Shaq. Wallace is 6'7 240.... if Shaq the strongest, heaviest and most physically dominant player of all time COULDN'T overpower him all game.. Shaq would be pretty pathetic. How did David Robinson do vs Shaq? Didn't Shaq's career highs come against Robinson? Didn't he always have his big games when he was extra motivated playing against him? You guys saying Mutombo stopped him are full of shit. EVERYONE at the time got destroyed by Shaq. He was the most dominant player OF ALL TIME physically.


no.
mutombo held optimus prime-shaq to a little above his average.
wallace got raped by older shaq.
big difference.
and no, shaq did not dominate robinson or hakeem the way he did ben.

[Clippersfan86]

no.
mutombo held optimus prime-shaq to a little above his average.
wallace got raped by older shaq.
big difference.
and no, shaq did not dominate robinson or hakeem the way he did ben.

LOL. I said Hakeem is the only one who got the best of Shaq consistently. Read more carefully. Go look up Shaq's games vs Robinson because I know from memory that he raped Robinson just about every time. Robinson disrespected Shaq as a kid when asking for an autograph.. and ignored him a couple other times and Shaq said he made it a point to dominate Robinson every time they played. Also.. I'd love stats proving Mutombo did anything special against Shaq. I'm willing to bet that if you actually go review his stats and career games... most of his best ones come against the best centers in the game.

Kind of how all of Jordan's career games and best games were against rivals or statement games.

[Teanett]

Wallace was a very good man to man defender, an elite post defender as well as an elite off the ball defender with all his steals and weakside shots he blocked. Rodman.. elite man to man defender/perimeter defender, good interior defender, average off the ball defender.


the thought of wallace being an elite man or post defender has me smiling.
face it, he just can't be due to his size. he only faced two great bigs who truly played "big" in duncan and shaq and didn't do so well, imo.
then to state his interior defense was better than dennis' (who we know played shaq, malone, barkley, webber, robinson, ewing, etc. as well as anybody) is homerism.

[Teanett]

Go look up Shaq's games vs Robinson because I know from memory that he raped Robinson just about every time.

if you're so sure, post a link.

[necya]

LOL. I said Hakeem is the only one who got the best of Shaq consistently. Read more carefully. Go look up Shaq's games vs Robinson because I know from memory that he raped Robinson just about every time. Robinson disrespected Shaq as a kid when asking for an autograph.. and ignored him a couple other times and Shaq said he made it a point to dominate Robinson every time they played. Also.. I'd love stats proving Mutombo did anything special against Shaq. I'm willing to bet that if you actually go review his stats and career games... most of his best ones come against the best centers in the game.

Kind of how all of Jordan's career games and best games were against rivals or statement games.

:facepalm it was actually the contrary...:hammerhead:
Robinson dominated Shaq in their duel from 93 to 96 in all departments of the game, until Robinson's major back injury.

[Teanett]

:facepalm it was actually the contrary...:hammerhead:
Robinson dominated Shaq in their duel from 93 to 96 in all departments of the game, until Robinson's major back injury.

that's how i remember it as well.

[The_Yearning]

If there was a DPOY award back in the 50s and 60s, Bill Russell would probably have more than 10. Shit, I wouldn't even be surprised if he won that award all 13 seasons.

There were only 4 teams in the league back then.

Regardless of how shitty you really were, or how good you think you were, every starting center had a 25% shot at winning DPOY.

[necya]

that's how i remember it as well.

i have all those games so i know what i'm talking about.
also, Shaq was responsible of the loss on 1995.03.03 at san antonio on the last shot. he did not control his player on the rebound that's why rodman put the easiest lay up of his life at the buzzer to steal the win 112-111

[olddangerfield]

Out of honest curiosity, which NBA defenders do you guys believe would have been able to contain Mr. O'Neal under a single coverage circumstance? (That's not a rhetorical question)

Rodman destroyed him in 96, another case for why he's the GOAT defender.

[az00m]

Rodman destroyed him in 96, another case for why he's the GOAT defender.

Yep he didn't guard him all the time only when longly was in foul trouble, but he guarded him a whole half in a crucial regular season match up vs the lakers when the bulls were down by 20 before the half. Shaq had 20 or so points and rodman who guarded him the 2nd half holded him to TWO POINTS.
thats with an OT.

[97 bulls]

Yep he didn't guard him all the time only when longly was in foul trouble, but he guarded him a whole half in a crucial regular season match up vs the lakers when the bulls were down by 20 before the half. Shaq had 20 or so points and rodman who guarded him the 2nd half holded him to TWO POINTS.
thats with an OT.
I remember that game. I think that was a game where jordan just didn't have it and kukoc rodman took over.

[skepticalsports]

Anyone who has time and is a fan of rodman I suggest reading this. Much proof that no one was of more value to a team than him. It's a long read with many parts to it but it is an enjoyable one.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197

Hi there.

This links to part 1(a) (http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197) of "The Case For Dennis Rodman," a long (12+ part) series I've been publishing piece by piece since last summer that uses Rodman as the vehicle for a broad criticism of contemporary basketball analysis.

If anyone is interested, I have a guide page (http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222) for the series here:
http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

As to the question in this thread, I think the statistical evidence for Ben Wallace is mixed.

Wallace has a fairly healthy sample for in game v. out of game comparisons (what I call "differential analysis"

[Haymaker]

Guarded shaq after shaq had a 25 point first half he had 2 points the whole half with OT. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr0vWIwObKY&feature=related

damn! Thanks for that vid. Man Randy Brown was a pest! he could lock down every PG on the league. Great obscure signing for the Bulls at the time. Jerry Krause was an underrated GM.

[mananmater]

Im sorry but this is just something that would come from a basketball novice, sweetheart no.

[rodman91]

skepticalsports, i liked those articles. I prefer eye-test (even though that can be subjective) but what i read there were pretty match up what i think.As you can see from my nick i'm a fan of worm and anybody play good defense with hustle.

My personal rank.. Rodman (with great versality-Jordan to Shaq,Defensive rebounding skills,lockdown defender,athletism) Olajuwon (maybe greatest blocking skills,great stealing skills,defensive rebounding,athletism) Mutombo (great height,long arms,great blocking and defensive rebounding skills,strenght)


I would like you get your attention to Omer Asik from Chicago Bulls.He might be great defender in future without great blocking and rebounding stats. He is very tall and has greater wing span. He got quick feet.He is very good at double teaming and blocking lane. He plays old school basketball which is quite rare in nba in these days.Probably our GM thinks same so he didn't trade him for C.Lee (even though we need a sg) At this point,even though he is just a rookie,he has great defensive impact in bulls without great defensive stats.

[Teanett]

skepticalsports,
interesting stuff. pretty much what i thought about rodman.
his rebounding and defense was clearly amazing but i was always amazed how well his teams played on offense.

[Mrofir]

Funny thing is Detroit got the better of the deal.

Suns got the better of the deal

[ThaRegul8r]

Rodman destroyed him in 96, another case for why he's the GOAT defender.

Yep he didn't guard him all the time only when longly was in foul trouble, but he guarded him a whole half in a crucial regular season match up vs the lakers when the bulls were down by 20 before the half. Shaq had 20 or so points and rodman who guarded him the 2nd half holded him to TWO POINTS.
thats with an OT.

But... but... that's impossible! Rodman simply doesn't have the size to be able to guard Shaq! Shaq would steamroll him and dunk on his head all game long! 100-pound weight difference! MDE!

[rodman91]

But... but... that's impossible! Rodman simply doesn't have the size to be able to guard Shaq! Shaq would steamroll him and dunk on his head all game long! 100-pound weight difference! MDE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK3ky-c2TPc he defended him without using arms too :lol

[feyki]

Since 80's ? Yes .

[fourkicks44]

Since 80's ? Yes .

Close, give me Rodman.

[feyki]

Close, give me Rodman.

Potential peak wise , maybe .

But Ben was god of defensive impact to the team since 80's .