Last 10 seconds - Lebron vs Kobe

[Hulk Hogan]

I'm sure you guys have seen the stat of this year's Miami Heat: In the last 10 seconds of the 4th or overtime, with the Heat tied or down 1-3pts (one FG), the Heat are shooting 1-18 this season...

We've seen some numbers and blah blah come out showing how Kobe isn't that clutch, or whatever with clutch being defined in various ways (last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, each team up or down 5... etc).

I like the 10 second clutch stat (FGM-FGA in the last 10 seconds of the 4th or OT, with the player's team tied or down 1-3) as a different look on things than we've had in the past because:
A. That means it's basically last second shot time
B. It's when your team is tied or down one shot.. which is much different and feels different than you getting a FGA with your team up 3. In this definition, if you miss, you lose or go into OT for sure basically.

I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays of Lebron and Kobe (for obvious reasons) to see what the stats show under this definition of clutch. Since I started doing this at 4am, I only got a few seasons done, but I'll post anyways and hope to continue my research tomorrow.

So here you have it, Lebron and Kobe's "Last 10sec" Clutch stats for 08-09 (Lebron's first MVP) til present.

Lebron James
08-09: 1-4 (25%)
09-10: 1-8 (12.5%)
10-11: 1-8 (12.5%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 3-20 (15%)

Kobe Bryant
08-09: 2-6 (33.3%)
09-10: 7-11 (63.6%)
10-11: 1-3 (33.3%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 10-20 (50%)

Funny enough, they have the same exact amount of attempts. Not the same amount of makes though.

[olddangerfield]

Kobe was a beast last year.. he had like 6 game winners.. and they were true game winners too with under 5 if not 2 seconds remaining.

[Rnbizzle]

Yes so Kobe is more clutch.. we've seen topics like this one before.. proving the same point. Get over it.

[chazzy]

Inb4 Hulk vs Ginobli Round 32 http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowldc/files/original/flying-cat-fight.jpg

[wally_world]

I'll take a blindfolded Kobe over LeBron in the final 10sec of a close game

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

I thought you don't like these stats. Why the sudden change of mind now that they aide you in your agenda?

[Hulk Hogan]

Inb4 Hulk vs Ginobli Round 32
As long as I keep owning him... I don't mind. :D

[G-Funk]

You should email ur reaseach to a sports writer thats not from bspn cause i doubt they would wanna expose lebron... Who knows maybe bucher or adande would...those r the only 2 writers that i see doing some more research like this to prop kobe..i know the others wont

[Hulk Hogan]

I thought you don't like these stats. Why the sudden change of mind now that they aide you in your agenda?

But why do you disregard stats now? Because they destroy your on-going agenda?

Yep...that's right.

Stats are everything until they don't support your objectives..

[catch24]

Thought it was common knowledge Kobe was the go-to-guy if you wanted a last second shot?

[olddangerfield]

But why do you disregard stats now? Because they destroy your on-going agenda?

Yep...that's right.

Stats are everything until they don't support your objectives..

Stats aren't meaningless, but their not this end all number as well. You have to judge from both watching the game and from the boxscore what actually happened on the basketball court. 30 years ago they didn't even have blocks and steals, and a lot of analysts at the time missed key stats that they could have used to interpret the game.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

But why do you disregard stats now? Because they destroy your on-going agenda?

Yep...that's right.

Stats are everything until they don't support your objectives..

Do you just make shit up as you go along?

[Hulk Hogan]

Thought it was common knowledge Kobe was the go-to-guy if you wanted a last second shot?

Look back when the kobe articles were first released. Look at the threads and see what the actually contests were.

[Hulk Hogan]

Do you just make shit up as you go along?

No, you just mad because the stats are not in your favor this time.
Imagine if Kobe was the one shooting 15% and Lebron was the one shooting 50%.. Lebron's nutgaggers would run with it, the thread would reach 100pages in 24 hours...

It would make the ESPN articles! But since it doesn't help you & their agenda, it must be disregarded, destroyed..

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

No, you just mad because the stats are not in your favor this time.
Imagine if Kobe was the one shooting 15% and Lebron was the one shooting 50%.. Lebron's nutgaggers would run with it, the thread would reach 100pages in 24 hours...

It would make the ESPN articles! But since it doesn't help you & their agenda, it must be disregarded, destroyed..

I never disregarded the stats. And I don't do now. Why do you have to make shit up? You're extremely insecure. And why would I be mad about anything??? I don't even like Lebron.

[Hulk Hogan]

Stats aren't meaningless, but their not this end all number as well. You have to judge from both watching the game and from the boxscore what actually happened on the basketball court. 30 years ago they didn't even have blocks and steals, and a lot of analysts at the time missed key stats that they could have used to interpret the game.

I never said stats were meaningless. Anyway, yes I get what you mean, in the old days, we didn't have what we have today. But we have it now, might aswell make the best of it.

[Hulk Hogan]

I never disregarded the stats. And I don't do now. Why do you have to make shit up? You're extremely insecure.

Make what up you asshole?

[chazzy]

Are you Imadogg? If not, give proper credit :lol

[Simple Jack]

But why do you disregard stats now? Because they destroy your on-going agenda?

Yep...that's right.

Stats are everything until they don't support your objectives..

says the guy who disregards stats if it doesn't support his objectives....

If I'm not mistaken, Gino, myself, and others, have all stated we want Kobe taking a GW shot, or for a single shot, but would rather have LeBron among others when there is more time than just 1 shot (as evident by his efficiency in close games down the stretch with the exception of this year). Thanks for verifying what most of us already know at 4am.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Make what up you asshole?

.....


But why do you disregard stats now? Because they destroy your on-going agenda?

Yep...that's right.

Stats are everything until they don't support your objectives..

You're delusional and paranoid when it comes to Kobe.

[StacksOnDeck]

You don't need stats to know Kobe is more clutch.

[olddangerfield]

Are you Imadogg? If not, give proper credit :lol

lol what? Why is everybody suppose to be somebody else on this forum? Not everybody has multiple accounts like all these users with 10000++ posts.

[Hulk Hogan]

says the guy who disregards stats until it doesn't support his objective....

If I'm not mistaken, Gino, myself, and others, have all stated we want Kobe taking a GW shot, or for a single shot, but would rather have LeBron among others when there is more time than just 1 shot (as evident by his efficiency in close games down the stretch with the exception of this year). Thanks for verifying what most of us already know at 4am.

You mean this thread?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206843

that went 34 pages.... yeah right. :roll: :roll:

[Simple Jack]

You mean this thread?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206843

that went 34 pages.... yeah right. :roll: :roll:

Skimming the thread all I see is Ginobli saying LeBron is more clutch because of his overall play. Not sure how that isn't arguable; I don't see a reference in that thread to last second shots (which isn't the only thing that goes into being clutch). He can tell you himself but I'm pretty sure I've seen him post that.

[rodman91]

Of course Kobe is more clutch.Lebron is built like powerforward.He doesn't have touch,shooting style and body movement to be clutch like Kobe.All the clutch players in history have great shooting style and touch.

[Simple Jack]

Of course Kobe is more clutch.Lebron is built like powerforward.He doesn't have touch,shooting style and body movement to be clutch like Kobe.All the clutch players in history have great shooting style and touch.

Bill Russell? Tim Duncan?

[crisoner]

says the guy who disregards stats if it doesn't support his objectives....



That would be 99.9% of everyone who posts on these boards.

[Jacks3]

Kobe--The most clutch player in the league.


lol @ picking guys who can't shoot (LBJ,Wade) over him. :facepalm

[Hulk Hogan]

Skimming the thread all I see is Ginobli saying LeBron is more clutch because of his overall play. Not sure how that isn't arguable; I don't see a reference in that thread to last second shots (which isn't the only thing that goes into being clutch). He can tell you himself but I'm pretty sure I've seen him post that.

The thread itself is about last second shots.. So I don't know how you can get away with that...:no:

Anyway if you look at everything overall in the clutch, Kobe is clearly over Lebron. Always top 1/2 in the last five minutes of crunch time and significantly better in the last possession where the game is on the line.

[kkling]

Hulk, do you make this thread every other day or something?

[crisoner]

Kobe is a scorer an his style of play is putting up shots.
When he is hot he is hot...but when he is cold he can chuck the Lakers out of the game.

BUT

Like Shaq says with his free throws back in the day...the ones he has to make down the stretch Kobe makes them. And he has has the knack for doing that in his career. For key buckets in the game I would take Kobe Bryant and Ray Allen over anyone else period. Both of those guys have proven time and time again. You can bring up Kobe's shooting stats etc. but they do not tell the whole story. You want someone to come in and close the game with a dagger Kobe is your man. As for LeBron...dude is not even in the conversation.

/Thread

[Indian guy]

This is like the only stat Kobe has over LeBron, and even then I highly doubt if their career percentages in this situation are much different. LeBron ranked higher on ESPN's clutch-shot list.

[dutchguy]

... Kobe ...

Is there one thing you can name that lacks from Kobe's game?

[Hulk Hogan]

This is like the only stat Kobe has over LeBron, and even then I highly doubt if their career percentages in this situation are much different. LeBron ranked higher on ESPN's clutch-shot list.

not anymore those lists are outdated...
Using the standard that Abbort used on the article.

Lebron is 0 for 5 this year while Kobe is 2 for 2.

Also Lebron's career percentage in this situation is in the high/mid 10's...



LeBron, D-Wade shot just over 20% for careers entering season on potential tying/go-ahead shots the last 10 seconds of 4th or OT.

http://twitter.com/WallaceHeatNBA/status/45244608757764096


This season, Wade and LeBron are a combined 1 of 10. Heat, as a team, are 1 of 16, according to Elias and ESPN research.


http://twitter.com/WallaceHeatNBA/status/45245096374976513

[LAClipsFan33]

LOL @ this guy just making up stats

:oldlol:

[ukplayer4]

hulk why do you persist? everybody on here already thinks your a joke whos life revolves around the miami heat and specifically lebron james. why would anyone take your "stats" seriously when they have consistently been expossed as lies and just made up, even the ones that are some way true involve you inventing some criteria. its happened way too often and is just laughable.

sorry man but you just need some help, is there nothing else in your life honestly?

ginobili may be bias in favor of mj but atleats he doesnt make stuff up and is actually quite informed, you are just a headcase.

[Hulk Hogan]

LOL @ this guy just making up stats

:oldlol:

Another Lebron fan not happy with the results...

I'm very surprised! :facepalm

[Indian guy]

not anymore those lists are outdated...

LeBron's recent misses may have put Kobe ahead, but that only goes to show how minimal the difference between them is. Not something I'd be touting as some kind of accomplishment. Not when LeBron's consistently posted superior crunch-time numbers than Kobe for years now.


Lebron is 0 for 5 this year while Kobe is 2 for 2.

Huh? Didn't you say Kobe was 2-4 just yesterday?

[Hulk Hogan]

hulk why do you persist? everybody on here already thinks your a joke whos life revolves around the miami heat and specifically lebron james. why would anyone take your "stats" seriously when they have consistently been expossed as lies and just made up, even the ones that are some way true involve you inventing some criteria. its happened way too often and is just laughable.

sorry man but you just need some help, is there nothing else in your life honestly?

ginobili may be bias in favor of mj but atleats he doesnt make stuff up and is actually quite informed, you are just a headcase.

Yeah because my name is "Michael Wallace"

and I "covers the Miami Heat and the NBA for ESPN.com and the Heat Index"

and I make up statistics for ESPN to use on their show.

LOL...Typical Lebron fanboy trying to save face...:roll: :roll:

[Hulk Hogan]

LeBron's recent misses may have put Kobe ahead, but that only goes to show how minimal the difference between them is. Not something I'd be touting as some kind of accomplishment. Not when LeBron's consistently posted superior crunch-time numbers than Kobe for years now.


He hasn't the stats prove it on the OP prove it.
The stats he's putting up this year when the game is on the line proves it.



Huh? Didn't you say Kobe was 2-4 just yesterday?

Henry Abbort's metric:


Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots. From Alok Pattani of ESPN Stats & Information.

The two misses from kobe were three-pointers while they were down 3 points.
So that doesn't count using that standard.

[ukplayer4]

Yeah because my name is "Michael Wallace"

and I "covers the Miami Heat and the NBA for ESPN.com and the Heat Index"

and I make up statistics for ESPN to use on their show.

LOL...Typical Lebron fanboy trying to save face...:roll: :roll:



lol, im not even a fan of lebron. just pointing out the obvious

[Hulk Hogan]

lol, im not even a fan of lebron. just pointing out the obvious

First of all, you are a lebron fanboy and secondly the obvious is that the guy "Michael Wallace" is an ESPN writer who was assigned to cover the Miami Heat in a special 'heat index' on ESPN. He is the guy you see on ESPN getting interviewed about the Heat everyday. Yes that was the guy who tweeted that coming into the season for his career, Lebron is shooting barely over 20% in the last ten seconds.

Now You have also seen ALL OVER ESPN that lebron is shooting 1 for 8 in the last 10 seconds this season. Those are the obvious, you clearly don't want to acknowledge it because you want to live in your little lebron panzy world.

[olddangerfield]

hulk why do you persist? everybody on here already thinks your a joke whos life revolves around the miami heat and specifically lebron james. why would anyone take your "stats" seriously when they have consistently been expossed as lies and just made up, even the ones that are some way true involve you inventing some criteria. its happened way too often and is just laughable.

sorry man but you just need some help, is there nothing else in your life honestly?

ginobili may be bias in favor of mj but atleats he doesnt make stuff up and is actually quite informed, you are just a headcase.

pfft don't start. Ginobli isn't informed about anything and he's just as bias as Hulk. He tried to argue that Kobe isn't clutch for 20 or so pages and then called everybody else stupid.

[dutchguy]

...kobe

Again, can you name one thing you don't like about kobe's game?

[indiefan24]

pfft don't start. Ginobli isn't informed about anything and he's just as bias as Hulk. He tried to argue that Kobe isn't clutch for 20 or so pages and then called everybody else stupid.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1736/capturepv.png

[Hulk Hogan]

Again, can you name one thing you don't like about kobe's game?

He settles too much for long jumpers...
He would be unstoppable if he was persistent in the post and the mid-range game.

[LAClipsFan33]

Another Lebron fan not happy with the results...

I'm very surprised! :facepalm

I think Lebron is an absolute idiot who is good at basketball. Get your facts straight. I'm very far from a Lebron homer.

I don't have unconditional romantic feelings for him like you have for Kobe

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Hulk Hogan vs Ginoblii Round 32

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowldc/files/original/flying-cat-fight.jpg
:oldlol:

[LAClipsFan33]

Sometimes I wonder if the OP really is a skinny little kid with a Kobe shrine and candles in his room or is he just some asshole putting on a show to get a rise out of people

[Hulk Hogan]

I think Lebron is an absolute idiot who is good at basketball. Get your facts straight. I'm very far from a Lebron homer.

I don't have unconditional romantic feelings for him like you have for Kobe

Well your god "Lebron" is shooting 15% in the last 10 seconds in clutch time for the last three years and around 15% for his career.

Deal with it!

[catch24]

Sometimes I wonder if the OP really is a skinny little kid with a Kobe shrine and candles in his room or is he just some asshole putting on a show to get a rise out of people

The former. He could be pudgy, though?

[Showtime]

I'm sure you guys have seen the stat of this year's Miami Heat: In the last 10 seconds of the 4th or overtime, with the Heat tied or down 1-3pts (one FG), the Heat are shooting 1-18 this season...

We've seen some numbers and blah blah come out showing how Kobe isn't that clutch, or whatever with clutch being defined in various ways (last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, each team up or down 5... etc).

I like the 10 second clutch stat (FGM-FGA in the last 10 seconds of the 4th or OT, with the player's team tied or down 1-3) as a different look on things than we've had in the past because:
A. That means it's basically last second shot time
B. It's when your team is tied or down one shot.. which is much different and feels different than you getting a FGA with your team up 3. In this definition, if you miss, you lose or go into OT for sure basically.

I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays of Lebron and Kobe (for obvious reasons) to see what the stats show under this definition of clutch. Since I started doing this at 4am, I only got a few seasons done, but I'll post anyways and hope to continue my research tomorrow.

So here you have it, Lebron and Kobe's "Last 10sec" Clutch stats for 08-09 (Lebron's first MVP) til present.

Lebron James
08-09: 1-4 (25%)
09-10: 1-8 (12.5%)
10-11: 1-8 (12.5%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 3-20 (15%)

Kobe Bryant
08-09: 2-6 (33.3%)
09-10: 7-11 (63.6%)
10-11: 1-3 (33.3%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 10-20 (50%)

Funny enough, they have the same exact amount of attempts. Not the same amount of makes though.
Unless you are imadogg, or he stole from a 3rd party, stop copying somebody else's posts.

[CeltsGarlic]

As long as I keep owning him... I don't mind. :D

I dont think there's a winner in these fights...

[dutchguy]

He settles too much for long jumpers...
He would be unstoppable if he was persistent in the post and the mid-range game.
:oldlol:
You really can't do it huh? Really objectively evaluate kobe's game. Even the one 'negative' aspect you have to turn into something 'unstoppable'.

You're funny

[LAClipsFan33]

Well your god "Lebron" is shooting 15% in the last 10 seconds in clutch time for the last three years and around 15% for his career.

Deal with it!

My god ?

My God is Jesus Christ.

Your a clown

[Hulk Hogan]

Unless you are imadogg, or he stole from a 3rd party, stop copying somebody else's posts.

I'm not copying someone else post... I'm posting it here you ASS WIPE...
When did I claim it was mine? GTFO!

You just mad yet again because your god "lebron" is shooting mere blanks in clutch time, where it matters the most. Lebron goes 15% for the past 3 years and 15% for his career.

[catch24]

I'm not copying someone else post... I'm posting it here you ASS WIPE...
When did I claim it was mine? GTFO!

You just mad yet again because your god "lebron" is shooting mere blanks in clutch time, where it matters the most. Lebron goes 15% for the past 3 years and 15% for his career.

Someone's upset they got exposed. Poor guy :oldlol:

[Hulk Hogan]

My god ?

My God is Jesus Christ.

Your a clown

If Jesus were your God, ye wouldn't harbor in sexual relations with King james.

You are of your father the devil and the same shit he does you do.
He wanted to be a King from the beginning. He is a liar, just as you, there is no truth in him.

Because I tell you the truth, you don't believe me.

[Hulk Hogan]

Someone's upset they got exposed. Poor guy :oldlol:

Get exposed? LOL at this fool...

The only one who got exposed here is Lebron and his clutch myth... :roll: :roll:

[Hulk Hogan]

Now that I have owned these fools on ISH...

I can head on to college to my class that starts in two hours...
Do a few training and workouts getting ready for my FBI FLETC tests.

Don't worry, I will pay you guys a special visit to your cribs when I become an agent. We'll see who's the smart mouth then. Yall better hide your stash...:pimp:

[Showtime]

I'm not copying someone else post... I'm posting it here you ASS WIPE...
When did I claim it was mine? GTFO!

You just mad yet again because your god "lebron" is shooting mere blanks in clutch time, where it matters the most. Lebron goes 15% for the past 3 years and 15% for his career.
Here's where you ****ing idiot:


I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays...

Stop copying somebody's EXACT ****ING WORDS and posting it here as your own. ****ing moron.

BTW, Hulk got exposed copying Imadogg on the site mixmakers.net

[pauk]

I like the 10 second clutch stat and no other stat because it kills my objective where i cant lick kobes ballz

i dont like the 24 second clutch stat because it kills that objective of kobrick being the best
yes i know u still can get the last shot the gamewinner with 24 seconds left but 10 zeconds iz teh betterzzzzzzzz becuz Kobrickz iz leeadinzzz theerrreez!!


fixed #1



I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays of Lebron and Kobe (for obvious reasons) because i have no life and must find SOMETHING where kobrick can lead so i can continue gagging on his crotch

and oh most of these stats were manifested by me, its not 100% accurate

fixed #2

[Christofire]

I hate advanced stats. Nothin better than the eyeball test.


look at PPS and tell if you think the top 10 guys are the best scorers in the NBA,

If you look at the clutch stat you think that LeBron James is a Closer.

If you look at PER you'd think that Chris Paul has been the Chris Paul that we're accustomed to seeing but he's not been.

STATS only matter after the fact. I judge by what i saw then i take a look at the stats to see how it looked on paper.

[catch24]

Bye bye, Hulk.

[dutchguy]

Don't worry, I will pay you guys a special visit to your cribs when I become an agent. We'll see who's the smart mouth then. :pimp:
:oldlol:
You remind me of Eric Cartman

[Showtime]

:oldlol:
You remind me of Eric Cartman
He's so ****ing full of himself, it's pathetic.

[Hulk Hogan]

Here's where you ****ing idiot:



Stop copying somebody's EXACT ****ING WORDS and posting it here as your own. ****ing moron.

BTW, Hulk got exposed copying Imadogg on the site mixmakers.net

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1098943

LOL @ this fool. I transfered the exact thread from real-gm to here.
I copy and PASTED the ENTIRE POST and Thread Title.
Its the exactly same title and post.

I wasn't trying to copy it, I wanted to post it here you asshole.

I also wanted to put it in quotes, but you are required to add additional texts to the post. So therefore I pasted it like that without any quotes.

Yet again, non of this changes the result. It stands the same.

[Hulk Hogan]

He's so ****ing full of himself, it's pathetic.

Don't worry, you will be the first one... anyway I got class.


PEACE!

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Beasley 2-2 this season:cheers:

[SavageMode]

Now that I have owned these fools on ISH...

I can head on to college to my class that starts in two hours...
Do a few training and workouts getting ready for my FBI FLETC tests.

Don't worry, I will pay you guys a special visit to your cribs when I become an agent. We'll see who's the smart mouth then. Yall better hide your stash...:pimp:
LOLOLOLOLOL

You really take that much pride of Kobe nut-hugging... do you even have any friends? :facepalm *sigh*:roll:

[Showtime]

I copy and PASTED the ENTIRE POST and Thread Title.
Its the exactly same title and post.


I wasn't trying to copy it, I wanted to post it here you asshole.

LOL you contradicted yourself you ****ing moron. Did you post the link and say "Hey, saw this cool post, wanted you guys to see it"? No, you posted the exact text (copypasta) under your account, with no credit or link.


I also wanted to put it in quotes, but you are required to add additional texts to the post. So therefore I pasted it like that without any quotes.

So you literally are too stupid to add any sort of additional opinion of your own, or even give credit to the original poster at all to meet the minimum character requirements? ROTFLMAO

[Showtime]

Don't worry, you will be the first one... anyway I got class.


PEACE!
Tell me when you apply to the FBI so I can use my connections to inform them of your little league-pass hack. I'm sure they would love that tidbit in their background check and profile.

Also, if I'm overseas working for a company's IT department making 2-4 times your FBI salary, I doubt they would expand your jurisdiction just to waste time with your obsession with me.

[rodman91]

Bill Russell? Tim Duncan?

Duncan has good touch.Also great fundamental to create easy shot for himself.Lebron lacks of these. Also guys like Jordan,Kobe,Allen,Melo has smooth jumpers.Everybody can shoot bad at in such defensive and emotional pressure but when lebron does it looks like throwing bricks. That can't be coincidence. Maybe he should work on more on his jumper.Malone had great jumper.

His decision making is better than Kobe in clutch situations though.Kobe is more likely to shoot over 3 men while lebron prefer to pass open guy.

[LAClipsFan33]

If Jesus were your God, ye wouldn't harbor in sexual relations with King james.

You are of your father the devil and the same shit he does you do.
He wanted to be a King from the beginning. He is a liar, just as you, there is no truth in him.

Because I tell you the truth, you don't believe me.

Your a truly strange human...

[ukplayer4]

:roll: at this retard, anyone who calls him out or exposses him for making stuff up is "a lebron homer". most of the people in this thread laughing at you hulk arent even a fan of lebron, as they have pointed out

[rizzy]

Being a Cavs fan you can guarantee I hate Lebron more than the OP and even I can tell that he was molested by his step dad who was wearing a SVSM jersey

[Hulk Hogan]

Tell me when you apply to the FBI so I can use my connections to inform them of your little league-pass hack. I'm sure they would love that tidbit in their background check and profile.

Also, if I'm overseas working for a company's IT department making 2-4 times your FBI salary, I doubt they would expand your jurisdiction just to waste time with your obsession with me.

Do me a favor and contact them right now: www.FBI.gov
They would probably tell me to hook them up. :oldlol:

Seriously dude, I'm gonna get your dumbass no matter where and I'm not joking either.
Looks like you are not aware of what a secret agent is capable of accomplishing...

[bballer]

I'll take left handed Kobe over Lebron this year

[ginobli2311]

No, you just mad because the stats are not in your favor this time.
Imagine if Kobe was the one shooting 15% and Lebron was the one shooting 50%.. Lebron's nutgaggers would run with it, the thread would reach 100pages in 24 hours...

It would make the ESPN articles! But since it doesn't help you & their agenda, it must be disregarded, destroyed..


why do you use stats now that you tried to pretend were flawed or biased when kobe comes out looking bad?

facts are facts.

in the last ten seconds over the last 3 years, kobe has clearly been better.

no sane or logical person would debate this.

and no, you are not owning me. how? i don't flip flop around.

so I ask you again Hulk. why are these stats relevant now for you when you tried for 100 pages to come up with reasons why they are flawed?

are you ready to admit Dirk is better with 24 seconds or less left now? if not, then these stats prove nothing and we can't take you serious if you can't apply the same logic to all players.

please answer.

[B]

lol what? Why is everybody suppose to be somebody else on this forum? Not everybody has multiple accounts like all these users with 10000++ posts.
This is crazy stuff coming from this guy. He was the one caught talking to himself with two accounts in this thread here.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207922

[ginobli2311]

and another thing:

i've seen this a thousand times in business when discussing mergers or acquisitions. people try to make the scope of the analysis as small as possible when they know a broad and more accurate picture will hurt them.

this is true with hulk for his kobe stats. he is always trying to narrow the scope of the stats down. why? if kobe is the best, wouldn't you want the parameters to be larger? you would. but the problem is that kobe is not even close to the best in game winning situations...and neither is his team.

so still waiting for your response Hulk.

Dirk is now up to almost 43% for his career.
The Mavs offense performs better than the Lakers offense in these situations for their careers respectively.
The Mavs have the best record in close games in the entire league since 05 as well.

So again....are you willing to admit Dirk is better than Kobe in these situations? If not, we can't take anything you post seriously because you have an agenda.

[LA_Showtime]

Neither player is as good as advertised in the clutch, and the stats prove it. With that said, I would still choose Kobe or LeBron with 10 seconds left in a one possession game. As with everything, stats don't tell the whole story.

[ginobli2311]

Neither player is as good as advertised in the clutch, and the stats prove it. With that said, I would still choose Kobe or LeBron with 10 seconds left in a one possession game. As with everything, stats don't tell the whole story.

For sure.

I'd take Kobe as well....at least for sure over the last 3 years. That is a really limited analysis though both in time frame and parameters.

That is why the 24 seconds or less is a much better study. It went through every single game since 1997.

The you found that the league average was 29%....and that both kobe and lebron shoot in the low 30s.

kobe is now up to 32% and lebron is down to 31%.....both guys shoot way too much and it hurts their teams. lebron's teams are 9th in offensive efficiency in these situations while kobe's are 12th for their respective careers.

So while I don't discount Hulk's numbers, its an extremely limited view on something that we actually have all the data on with good parameters done by ESPN.....

Hulk just didn't like those results so he had to narrow the scope of an analysis to make Kobe come out on top....thus doing the exact thing he accused ESPN of doing....even though ESPN didn't do it all.

The story of Hulk posting on here.

[Hulk Hogan]

why do you use stats now that you tried to pretend were flawed or biased when kobe comes out looking bad?


I have never said these stats were flawed. I have said that the way it was used were deceiving. Two totally different statements





and no, you are not owning me. how? i don't flip flop around.

You are flip flopping, you are the one who told me to post statistics with Kobe ahead. I have and now you are backing out of it and trying to turn this on me.



so I ask you again Hulk. why are these stats relevant now for you when you tried for 100 pages to come up with reasons why they are flawed?


No I told you where the team statistics the author was using and the way he utilized this specific statistic was wrong. That was my premise all along.



are you ready to admit Dirk is better with 24 seconds or less left now? if not, then these stats prove nothing and we can't take you serious if you can't apply the same logic to all players.

please answer.

No because you have to take everything into context. Kobe is a perimeter player not a power-forward. Kobe takes the shots that dirk doesn't take. This is the main reason he has so many attempt compared to players like dirk.

He is the perimeter player you give the ball to and have them run the full length of the court to take a shot. Dirk doesn't do that. When you compare two different kind of players, you need to take into consideration the way they score and the type of shots they attempt or are forced to attempt.

Dirk is the guy whose shots are assisted not the player who craftly creates his own shot off the dribble.

Power-forwards have a very high advantage over perimeter players, that's why their overall season percentage are higher.

For Example if you don't get what I'm saying, take a look at the clutch shot Dirk made a few days ago. He sets up post position, catches the ball, waits...escape step back dribble and shoots.

That's the advantage a 7' PF has that a perimeter player doesn't. Doesn't mean they're better. The perimeter players also have to take the hard, difficult long shots, full court, half court, long threes, you name it that players like Dirk, Kevin Martin, Shawn Marion...etc doesn't take.

[DixieNourmous]

http://www.chicitysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/LEB61.jpg

[ginobli2311]

I have never said these stats were flawed. I have said that the way it was used were deceiving. Two totally different statements




You are flip flopping, you are the one who told me to post statistics with Kobe ahead. I have and now you are backing out of it and trying to turn this on me.



No I told you where the team statistics the author was using and the way he utilized this specific statistic was wrong. That was my premise all along.



No because you have to take everything into context. Kobe is a perimeter player not a power-forward. Kobe takes the shots that dirk doesn't take. This is the main reason he has so many attempt compared to players like dirk.

He is the perimeter player you give the ball to and have them run the full length of the court to take a shot. Dirk doesn't do that. When you compare two different kind of players, you need to take into consideration the way they score and the type of shots they attempt or are forced to attempt.

Dirk is the guy whose shots are assisted not the player who craftly creates his own shot off the dribble.

Power-forwards have a very high advantage over perimeter players, that's why their overall season percentage are higher.

For Example if you don't get what I'm saying, take a look at the clutch shot Dirk made a few days ago. He sets up post position, catches the ball, waits...escape step back dribble and shoots.

That's the advantage a 7' PF has that a perimeter player doesn't. Doesn't mean their better. The perimeter players also have to take the hard, difficult long shots, full court, half court, long threes, you name it.


this is simply not true for almost all of what you posted.

as for what position they play? who cares? does a basket not count because dirk is taller? give me a ****ing break.

and no, Dirk's game winners are actually rarely assisted. Its dirk dishing out assists.

kobe is a sg. with the soft rules and advantages of his position, he should get to the rim and setup his teammates much more than Dirk. but he doesn't do that.

so once again. Dirk performs better individually....now shooting over 10% better for his career. Dirk's teams have a better offensive efficiency in these situations. Dirk's teams win more close games by a wide margin over Kobe's.

Yet Dirk is not better.

:no:

ROFL....sorry, can't have a legit discussion with you.

And no, I'm not flip flopping. I said if you provided a scenario in which kobe was better I'd acknowledge it at least and take it into consideration. Which I have. The problem is that your stat is extremely narrow. only 3 years? why...when kobe has played 15 and lebron has played 8. only 10 seconds. why? when we know its a limited parameter.

Back to ignoring.....

[chazzy]

For sure.

I'd take Kobe as well....at least for sure over the last 3 years. That is a really limited analysis though both in time frame and parameters.

That is why the 24 seconds or less is a much better study. It went through every single game since 1997.

Well to be fair, Kobe wasn't considered clutch for shots he made from 1996-2000. Those stats are better for determining who's been much clutch for their entire career. But the 3 year window is better for deciding who you would want to take the last shot right now IMO.

[Hulk Hogan]

this is simply not true for almost all of what you posted.


Everything I posted is a fact.

1) PF average 10+ more percentage than perimeter players in the history of the NBA.

2) PF score most of their points in the paint and in the midrange areas, they don't turn into perimeter players in crunch time, its the same thing.

3) Perimeter players attempt MORE shots and MORE difficult shots than PF

My whole point is that, perimeter players can to hoist up more shots and bad attempts than PF like Dirk... Which then kills their percentage overall.

I'm not talking about taking away credit from scoring. I'm talking about overall percentage.

http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064224789122.gif

Because perimeter players have to shoot these type of shots. That is why they have more attempts and a bad percentage. If dirk was hoisting shots like this, he would be in the same low 30's.



And no, I'm not flip flopping. I said if you provided a scenario in which kobe was better I'd acknowledge it at least and take it into consideration. Which I have. The problem is that your stat is extremely narrow. only 3 years? why...when kobe has played 15 and lebron has played 8. only 10 seconds. why? when we know its a limited parameter.

Back to ignoring.....

Do you know why you are a joke? because first of all, I'm not the one who came up with this standard. ESPN did, LOL!

Only 10 seconds? Ask ESPN.
I like how you act dumb and say oh hulk limits the stats for his agenda as though I work for ESPN.

ESPN posted Lebron's stats and he is shooting around 15% in the last 10 seconds for his entire career, why don't you get mad at them not me. I didn't create these stats, I just post them.

You watch ESPN and see them blasted all over the TV, yet you have the nerve to put the blame on me. :facepalm

[ginobli2311]

Well to be fair, Kobe wasn't considered clutch for shots he made from 1996-2000. Those stats are better for determining who's been much clutch for their entire career. But the 3 year window is better for deciding who you would want to take the last shot right now IMO.

well, right now is something that we haven't really discussed much.

but yes, i'd take kobe over lebron for sure right now.

but i'd take dirk and melo for sure over kobe....don't really know how anyone can debate that if we are going off the results of the last few years.

its just that three years is such a limited time frame.

and also, trying to use what position these guys play as reasons why one is better than the other is a joke.

now its easier for a 7 footer to make game winners? what? makes no sense whatsoever.

[tpols]

well, right now is something that we haven't really discussed much.

but yes, i'd take kobe over lebron for sure right now.

but i'd take dirk and melo for sure over kobe....don't really know how anyone can debate that if we are going off the results of the last few years.

its just that three years is such a limited time frame.

and also, trying to use what position these guys play as reasons why one is better than the other is a joke.

now its easier for a 7 footer to make game winners? what? makes no sense whatsoever.
Actually, it is.. you talk about 'soft rules' for perimeter players and ignore that dirk is in fact a perimeter player in gamewinning scenarios. He ALWAYS catches the ball on the outside line or in the midrange area and faces up for a shot, or a one-two dribble-shot. Those rules apply to dirk just as much as they do to kobe or lebron.. and the fact that he routinely has a guy on him that's giving up 6+ inches of standing reach defintely makes it a shit load easier for him to get off a shot with someone in his face.

[Hulk Hogan]

http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/confused.jpg

:lol :lol :roll: :roll:

[ginobli2311]

Everything I posted is a fact.

1) PF average 10+ more percentage than perimeter players in the history of the NBA.

2) PF score most of their points in the paint and in the midrange areas, they don't turn into perimeter players in crunch time, its the same thing.

3) Perimeter players attempt MORE shots and MORE difficult shots than PF

My whole point is that, perimeter players can to hoist up more shots and bad attempts than PF like Dirk... Which then kills their percentage overall.

I'm not talking about taking away credit from scoring. I'm talking about overall percentage.

http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064224789122.gif

Because perimeter players have to shoot these type of shots. That is why they have more attempts and a bad percentage. If dirk was hoisting shots like this, he would be in the same low 30's.



Do you know why you are a joke? because first of all, I'm not the one who came up with this standard. ESPN did, LOL!

Only 10 seconds? Ask ESPN.
I like how you act dumb and say oh hulk limits the stats for his agenda as though I work for ESPN.

ESPN posted Lebron's stats and he is shooting around 15% in the last 10 seconds, why don't you get mad at them not me. I didn't create these stats, I just post them.

You watch ESPN and see them blasted all over the TV, yet you have the nerve to put the blame on me. :facepalm


Dirk takes plenty of bail out shots late. Plenty. The difference is that he doesn't jack up as many terrible shots. So you are talking about incremental differences.

If its so easy for PF's to make game winners....then why do almost no other PF's appear on any of these lists in the range of dirk?

Its not just the 10 seconds. its 3 years. its so limited when these guys have been playing much longer than that.

Being a sg is an advantage in late game situations...especially with the joke rules we have now. its the fault of lebron and kobe that they don't get to the rim more or draw fouls more. they also should have a lot more assists in these situations. i know lebron does, but kobe does not. kobe had 1 game winning assist for nearly half his attempts. so to use your idiotic logic...that would mean kobe only has 2 or 3 game winning assists for his career.

The Real Facts:

Dirk shoots 10% better than Kobe on game winners
The Dirk's teams perform better offensively
Dirk's teams win more close games

Yet somehow Kobe is better? Sorry....doesn't add up.

[ginobli2311]

Actually, it is.. you talk about 'soft rules' for perimeter players and ignore that dirk is in fact a perimeter player in gamewinning scenarios. He ALWAYS catches the ball on the outside line or in the midrange area and faces up for a shot, or a one-two dribble-shot. Those rules apply to dirk just as much as they do to kobe or lebron.. and the fact that he routinely has a guy on him that's giving up 6+ inches of standing reach defintely makes it a shit load easier for him to get off a shot with someone in his face.

then where are all the other 7 footers making game winners?

jesus. a made shot is a made shot. there is no asterisk in the box score next to 7 footers.

you people will stop at nothing to rationalize why Kobe is worse that Dirk in these situations.

[tpols]

then where are all the other 7 footers making game winners?
Where are all the 7 footers that can shoot lights out from 20 feet out?

[Hulk Hogan]

then where are all the other 7 footers making game winners?

Shawn Marion...need I say more? O_o

[ginobli2311]

Where are all the 7 footers that can shoot lights out from 20 feet out?

thats what makes Dirk good dude. what the ****? he's one of the most unique players ever.

now that is working against him. its not fair that he can shoot so well therefore his made baskets aren't worth as much?

wow....just wow.

[ginobli2311]

Shawn Marion...need I say more? O_o

6-7

owned.

next?

i just love this. now dirk's efficiency and makes don't count because he's tall.

hahahahahahahahhaah. priceless.

solid hulk and tpols logic.

bu bu but...Dirk is 7 feet so of course he's better.

you got that right.....HE'S BETTER.

end of story.

[tpols]

thats what makes Dirk good dude. what the ****? he's one of the most unique players ever.

now that is working against him. its not fair that he can shoot so well therefore his made baskets aren't worth as much?

wow....just wow.
Where the fvck did I say they weren't worth as much? lol..

Take a chill pill man, you said it wasn't easier for 7 footers to make GWs but in Dirk's case, that is 90% of why he's good at those shots.

[Simple Jack]

I hate advanced stats. Nothin better than the eyeball test.


look at PPS and tell if you think the top 10 guys are the best scorers in the NBA,

If you look at the clutch stat you think that LeBron James is a Closer.

If you look at PER you'd think that Chris Paul has been the Chris Paul that we're accustomed to seeing but he's not been.

STATS only matter after the fact. I judge by what i saw then i take a look at the stats to see how it looked on paper.


Unfortunately there is no way you can view every play of every game. On top of that, you, like all of us, are biased to a certain degree. Stats make things more objective; eye-test doesn't. Not sure in what other aspect of life you can so easily rely on what you think rather than putting fourth an argument that includes facts and get away with it. Make your assumption off your eye test, and back it up with actual facts; just like you would in any other argument.

[Hulk Hogan]

Dirk shoots 10% better than Kobe on game winners.

First of all... Do you have statistics on how many shots dirk has made this season in the last 24 seconds while tied or down less than 2...

Because ESPN has him at 38% so I want to know how he jumped to 42%.

[branslowski]

:oldlol: You dude's argue about this same shit with these same lame nerd stats that no one truly gives a shit about...Give it a rest already...

Everyone needs to be clutch in the playoffs so you can win titles.

[ginobli2311]

Where the fvck did I say they weren't worth as much? lol..

Take a chill pill man, you said it wasn't easier for 7 footers to make GWs but in Dirk's case, that is 90% of why he's good at those shots.

no...its because he's one of the best big shot makers ever. of cousre size plays a role.

as do the soft perimeter rules for kobe. or the fact that kobe can get off any shot he wants. does that not play a role. kobe has many distinct advantages as well. his size allows him to be quicker and therefore create more space on jumpers. his superior athleticism allows him to blow by his man more easily and get to the rim. his quickness allows him to break down defenses more.

we can play this game all ****ing day. results are results. i don't care how or why.....a made basket is a made basket.

[Simple Jack]

Duncan has good touch.Also great fundamental to create easy shot for himself.Lebron lacks of these. Also guys like Jordan,Kobe,Allen,Melo has smooth jumpers.Everybody can shoot bad at in such defensive and emotional pressure but when lebron does it looks like throwing bricks. That can't be coincidence. Maybe he should work on more on his jumper.Malone had great jumper.

His decision making is better than Kobe in clutch situations though.Kobe is more likely to shoot over 3 men while lebron prefer to pass open guy.

What? LeBron's is more capable of hitting a 3 point shot, at a more efficient rate than Duncan. This isn't debatable.

We are criticizing a player because of how his shot looks now?

Malone was anti-clutch by the way.

Comments on Russell?

[Hulk Hogan]

6-7

owned.

next?

i just love this. now dirk's efficiency and makes don't count because he's tall.

hahahahahahahahhaah. priceless.

solid hulk and tpols logic.

bu bu but...Dirk is 7 feet so of course he's better.

you got that right.....HE'S BETTER.

end of story.


If I remember correctly, I mentioned the fact that he's a power-forward not the issue that he's tall and 7 feet.

[ginobli2311]

First of all... Do you have statistics on how many shots dirk has made this season in the last 24 seconds while tied or down less than 2...

Because ESPN has him at 38% so I want to know how he jumped to 42%.

dirk has made 3 this year.

i can't even think of a miss. but i gave him one anyway.

which equates to 42.4%

i could be wrong though. you can double check every game if you like...but i know for sure he has made at least 3.

[tpols]

no...its because he's one of the best big shot makers ever. of cousre size plays a role.

as do the soft perimeter rules for kobe. or the fact that kobe can get off any shot he wants. does that not play a role. kobe has many distinct advantages as well. his size allows him to be quicker and therefore create more space on jumpers. his superior athleticism allows him to blow by his man more easily and get to the rim. his quickness allows him to break down defenses more.

we can play this game all ****ing day. results are results. i don't care how or why.....a made basket is a made basket.
Soft perimeter rules? Dirk plays on the perimeter too.:oldlol: *Argument thrown out the window*

Quickness and blowing by? This isn't pre-2009 kobe anymore.. *Argument thrown out the window*

I'm not saying it;'s a bad thing the way dirk scores his points. His game is entirely predicated on it's unorthodox style. He's a 7 foot jumpshooter.. how do you defend that? It's a good thing. You need to relax man. I wasn't attacking dirk at all here.. It's all in your mind.

[ginobli2311]

If I remember correctly, I mentioned the fact that he's a power-forward not the issue that he's tall and 7 feet.

doesn't matter. a made basket is a made basket.

and dirk is far from your typical pf. he takes high difficulty shots like kobe and lebron do all the time. he takes bail out shots all the time as well.

he just makes more because he's a much better big shot maker than these guys in the 24 seconds or less parameters. he plays more team ball and doesn't force the issue.

its why Dirk has as many or more game winning assists as Kobe. he's not nearly as selfish. its why dirk's teams perform better and win more close games.

position doesn't matter. the results matter. each position has advantages anyway....trying to discount what Dirk does is simply pathetic.

[ginobli2311]

Soft perimeter rules? Dirk plays on the perimeter too.:oldlol: *Argument thrown out the window*

Quickness and blowing by? This isn't pre-2009 kobe anymore.. *Argument thrown out the window*

I'm not saying it;'s a bad thing the way dirk scores his points. His game is entirely predicated on it's unorthodox style. He's a 7 foot jumpshooter.. how do you defend that? It's a good thing. You need to relax man. I wasn't attacking dirk at all here.. It's all in your mind.

the perimeter rules help guards much more than dirk. argument thrown out window.

we are talking about kobe's entire career dude. argument thrown out window.

each player has advantages and disadvantages. dirk being 7 feet and a much better shooter than kobe is an advantage.

kobe being qucker, smaller, better ball handler, more athletic.....those are advantages for kobe.

[tpols]

the perimeter rules help guards much more than dirk. argument thrown out window.

we are talking about kobe's entire career dude. argument thrown out window.

each player has advantages and disadvantages. dirk being 7 feet and a much better shooter than kobe is an advantage.

kobe being qucker, smaller, better ball handler, more athletic.....those are advantages for kobe.
We're talking about jumpshooters here..Are you really going to act like being 7 feet tall isn't a bigger advantage than kobe's quickness? Dirk gets cleaner looks than kobe because he's always got a lot of height on the guy guarding him where as kobe ussually gives height up to his defender.. facts.

[Simple Jack]

doesn't matter. a made basket is a made basket.

and dirk is far from your typical pf. he takes high difficulty shots like kobe and lebron do all the time. he takes bail out shots all the time as well.

he just makes more because he's a much better big shot maker than these guys in the 24 seconds or less parameters. he plays more team ball and doesn't force the issue.

its why Dirk has as many or more game winning assists as Kobe. he's not nearly as selfish. its why dirk's teams perform better and win more close games.

position doesn't matter. the results matter. each position has advantages anyway....trying to discount what Dirk does is simply pathetic.


It would be interesting to see this same parameter applied to both Carmelo and Dirk.

[IGOTGAME]

Dirk id soft in the playoffs. He got punked by the Warriors. I cant take him seriously anymore after that. Dirk is not capable of leading a team to a title as the best player imo.

[ginobli2311]

We're talking about jumpshooters here..Are you really going to act like being 7 feet tall isn't a bigger advantage than kobe's quickness? Dirk gets cleaner looks than kobe because he's always got a lot of height on the guy guarding him where as kobe ussually gives height up to his defender.. facts.

ok. so lets say that dirk has more advantages. i don't believe this for a second, but lets say he does.

it does not change the fact that Dirk is better in these situations.....

forget the reasons why.

who is better...Dirk or Kobe? Dirk.

end thread

[indiefan24]

gino and hulk, don't you guys ever get tired of arguing over the same thing?

[ginobli2311]

gino and hulk, don't you guys ever get tired of arguing over the same thing?

this is a bit different. hulk already lost the first time around.

now he's admitting dirk is better results wise, but saying there should be an asterisk by his results because he's a PF. its priceless.

watching Hulk flip flop around so much and squirm.

[LA_Showtime]

this is a bit different. hulk already lost the first time around.

now he's admitting dirk is better results wise, but saying there should be an asterisk by his results because he's a PF. its priceless.

watching Hulk flip flop around so much and squirm.

He should just take the easy way out and say stats be damned, I'm taking Kobe or LeBron because they're the better players, period.

[ginobli2311]

He should just take the easy way out and say stats be damned, I'm taking Kobe or LeBron because they're the better players, period.

overall yes, but not with the game on the line in the last 24 seconds.

hard to argue that really. but whatever floats your boat.

[IGOTGAME]

overall yes, but not with the game on the line in the last 24 seconds.

hard to argue that really. but whatever floats your boat.

I guess if Dirk is gonna choke for the day he does it from the first quarter...So by the time there is one play left it is usually a blowout...

See Warriors and Heat series

[ginobli2311]

I guess if Dirk is gonna choke for the day he does it from the first quarter...So by the time there is one play left it is usually a blowout...

See Warriors and Heat series

and i could come up with plenty of series in which lebron and kobe choked.

04 finals?
07 finals?

08 finals?

celtics series last year for lebron?

suns series in 06 for kobe? airballing a series winner? ROFL
:roll:

[IGOTGAME]

and i could come up with plenty of series in which lebron and kobe choked.

04 finals?
07 finals?

08 finals?

celtics series last year for lebron?

suns series in 06 for kobe? airballing a series winner? ROFL
:roll:

None of those in any comparable to what Dirk did in Golden State. That was the worst chokejob I have ever seen.

Dirk has lost with in the first round to lower seeds how many times?

Come on...losing in a finals to a better team is nothing to frown upon but losing to worst teams is the issue. Dirk was shook the entire Warriors series, his teammates were saying the same thing.

I dont see how a Dallas fan can have any faith in Dirk after the Golden State series...He allowed himself to be outplayed by Stephen Jackson and seemed scared to get the ball for the majority of the series.


AKLAND, Calif. -- Dirk Nowitzki was a dud, not an MVP, as the Dallas Mavericks got bounced out of the NBA playoffs.

The league's probable Most Valuable Player came up small when his team needed a big effort and will have to watch the rest of the playoffs on television following Dallas' 111-86 loss to the Golden State Warriors on Thursday night.

"The expectations of myself are very high and if I don't meet those expectations, I'm going to be disappointed," Nowitzki said. "This series, I couldn't put my stamp on it the way I wanted to. That's why I'm very disappointed."

The 67 regular-season wins and spectacular stats that made Nowitzki the favorite to win the league's MVP award will be mere footnotes on his season. The lasting memory for most fans will be the missed shot after missed shot he put up in Game 6 when the Mavericks, the overall No. 1 seed, were eliminated in the first round.

Nowitzki finished 2-for-13 from the field with eight points, unable to prevent the NBA's biggest playoff upset ever. Nowitzki didn't make his first shot until the final minute of the first half. By the time he made his second, Dallas was already down 23 points.

"I thought I had some great looks, especially there in the first half," Nowitzki said. "I couldn't find my rhythm today. That was very frustrating. I couldn't help my team in a deciding game. That's tough."

The loss will only bring up more questions about Nowitzki's ability to carry his team to a title. Miami's Dwyane Wade questioned Nowitzki's leadership earlier this season, but owner Mark Cuban stands by his star.

"Not at all," Cuban said when asked if he had questions about Nowitzki as a leader. "Not a little bit. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a moron."

That memorable comeback Nowitzki engineered at home at the end of Game 5 was all for naught. The Mavericks were the best team to ever lose a first-round series. No team that had won 65 games in a season had ever lost its opening round.

Nowitzki had 12 points to spark Dallas' closing 15-0 run in the 118-112 Game 5 win, a victory that gave the Mavericks life for two more days. But he couldn't follow it up with another clutch performance and ended the series averaging 19.7 points while shooting 38 percent against his former coach Don Nelson's team.

Nelson knew just the right buttons to push against Nowitzki, sending double teams his way at every dribble and frustrating him at every turn with smaller defenders like Stephen Jackson.

"Just make him work hard, that was the thing, make him earn his points," Golden State's Jason Richardson said. "Stephen Jackson did an incredible job of making it hard for him, and our fans got in his head a little bit, too, I think and it threw him out of his game."

Nowitzki sat on the bench expressionless as the Warriors celebrated in the final minutes of the blowout.

This series was a far cry from Nowitzki's postseason success last year, when he led Dallas past San Antonio in the second round and scored 50 points in a key Game 5 win over Phoenix in the conference finals. The Mavericks wound up losing in the finals to the Heat, but came back so focused this season that they won 67 games, sixth-most in league history, and 25 more than the Warriors, who needed a 9-1 finish just to make the playoffs.

"It's a disappointment. You can't even describe it," Nowitzki said. "You play your heart out for six, seven months, you win 67 games, and it really means nothing at this point. ... This is tough to swallow."

The Mavericks became the third No. 1 seed to lose in the first round since the playoffs expanded to 16 teams and the first since the opening round became a best-of-seven in 2003.

[ginobli2311]

None of those in any comparable to what Dirk did in Golden State. That was the worst chokejob I have ever seen.

Dirk has lost with in the first round to lower seeds how many times?

Come on...losing in a finals to a better team is nothing to frown upon but losing to worst teams is the issue. Dirk was shook the entire Warriors series, his teammates were saying the same thing.

I dont see how a Dallas fan can have any faith in Dirk after the Golden State series...He allowed himself to be outplayed by Stephen Jackson and seemed scared to get the ball for the majority of the series.

LOL

excuses excuses. kobe had shaq in 04 and way beyond bad. kobe looked scared of prince the entire time....trying to prove he could score against him even though he couldn't.

and this thread has nothing to do with this anyway. but of course, always have to bring up random shit when talking about dirk'g game winners.
:cheers:

[tpols]

and i could come up with plenty of series in which lebron and kobe choked.

04 finals?
07 finals?

08 finals?

celtics series last year for lebron?

suns series in 06 for kobe? airballing a series winner? ROFL
:roll:
You can name times anyone has failed.. but for very few ballers can you name the times they succeeded.. When did kobe succeed? '00, '01, '02, '09, '10.. when did dirk?:oldlol: He's been in the finals once and choked the lead away, and his team has underperformed in the playoffs for the majority of the years.. facts are facts mate:cheers:

[IGOTGAME]

LOL

excuses excuses. kobe had shaq in 04 and way beyond bad. kobe looked scared of prince the entire time....trying to prove he could score against him even though he couldn't.

and this thread has nothing to do with this anyway. but of course, always have to bring up random shit when talking about dirk'g game winners.
:cheers:

Dirk isnt clutch. You cant be clutch and lose in the first round to 7th and 8th seeds.

[ginobli2311]

You can name times anyone has failed.. but for very few ballers can you name the times they succeeded.. When did kobe succeed? '00, '01, '02, '09, '10.. when did dirk?:oldlol: He's been in the finals once and choked the lead away, and his team has underperformed in the playoffs for the majority of the years.. facts are facts mate:cheers:

and this isn't about that.

i didn't bring it up. what you are saying is that kobe is better than dirk. no shit.

but of course, you have to bring up overall success when discussing this topic because we all know Dirk and his teams perform much better in these situations.

thats all i've ever said. its ok tpols. kobe is the better player. but he's not better in these situations. you can admit it now. your lord and savior won't mind it if you use your brain.

facts are facts mate.

[Showtime]

Do me a favor and contact them right now: www.FBI.gov
They would probably tell me to hook them up. :oldlol:

Just let me know when you apply and for which position. Seriously.

I have two relatives (not saying which ones) that have worked with and in the bureau.


Seriously dude, I'm gonna get your dumbass no matter where and I'm not joking either.
Looks like you are not aware of what a secret agent is capable of accomplishing...
"secret agent"? Looks like somebody's been watching too many movies. Listen, if you plan on misusing your power to unfairly and unlawfully target me if you even manage to get a job there, we'll see how long they retain you after my lawsuits.

[fubu05]

'Melo.

[Colby Brian]

I'll take a blindfolded Kobe over LeBron in the final 10sec of a close game

i agree :cheers:

[Hulk Hogan]

Just let me know when you apply and for which position. Seriously.

I have two relatives (not saying which ones) that have worked with and in the bureau.


"secret agent"? Looks like somebody's been watching too many movies. Listen, if you plan on misusing your power to unfairly and unlawfully target me if you even manage to get a job there, we'll see how long they retain you after my lawsuits.

LOL at this dude catching feelings...:roll:
Damn you are eaisly trolled, the only ***** who took this serious..
I guess this Lebron's stats in the clutch really hit home:lol

Not just in movies, movies are just a reflection of reality. There is an actual division for it. "Secret Agent", "Special Agent", "Federal Agent" Those are names used.

I'm sure since you're from overseas you wouldn't know anything about it. (http://www.fbijobs.gov/11.asp)
and NO, trust me. You won't make more than me.

....And You are such a dumass, why the **** would I tell you that I'm a agent and disclose my identity... That's breaking the basic rule #1.. That in itself would get me fired.:facepalm

Last of all... You don't know shit about the Bureau, your best bet is to STFU!

[Showtime]

LOL at this dude catching feelings...:roll:
Damn you are eaisly trolled, the only ***** who took this serious..
I guess Lebron's stats in the clutch really hit home:lol

I'm not even arguing stats. I came here to point out that you steal posts from members of other forums, and can't come up with an original thought.


No its not just in movies, there is actually a division for it. "Secret Agent", "Special Agent", "Federal Agent" Those are names used.

I'm sure since you're from overseas you wouldn't know anything about it. (http://www.fbijobs.gov/11.asp)
and NO, trust me. You won't make more than me.

You are such a dumass, why the **** would I tell you that I'm a agent and disclose my identity... That's breaking the basic rule #1.. :facepalm
Again, let me know when you apply (if you are at all serious and not just trolling because you are a punk college kid with nothing better to do outside of worship Kobe). PM me your name, position you are applying for, and when, and we will see who is joking and who is not.

And I didn't say I was from overseas, dumbass.

[rizzy]

Its gone from trolling to something serious

buhahahhaha

:blah
:blah
:blah
:blah
:sleeping
:violin:

[Hulk Hogan]

you are a punk college kid with nothing better to do outside of worship Kobe.

You are the type of moronic stuck up person I would want to..... beat the shit out of! Gosh if you lived near me, you would be dead right now!
You would hear the saying that goes around in my neighborhood... "Hulks gonna get ya"

[rizzy]

You are the type of moronic stuck up person I would want to..... beat the shit out of! Gosh if you lived near me, you would be dead right now!
You would hear the saying that goes around in my neighborhood... "Hulks gonna get ya"
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh37q7ajMb1qc43ao.jpg

[Hulk Hogan]

Final post to this loser "Showtime".
Hear this. I'm going to arrest you myself on Legal charges ofcourse.
So get ready. Everyone breaks the law. Most get away with it, you won't.
When you do, I will be the federal agent there to arrest you on it and you can take that to the bank.

[Showtime]

LOL @ this idiot. You don't know shit about the Bureau dude just drop.
You're making yourself look stupid. I exposed Lebron clutch myth and now you are catching bitter feelings... You aren't tough dude.

This has nothing to do with Lebron. I'm not even a fanboy of his. This has to do with A) you stealing posts from other forums and presenting them on ISH as if they were yours, and B) you being an epic douchebag


Tell me where you live and I come beat the shit outta you. I heard you wanted to fight a poster before...

Somebody harassed me, I asked if they would be so bold and say the same to my face, that was the end of my "threat".


You know what... Scratch that. I will get you myself when I get in the agency. Now I'm not even joking. Its gone from trolling to something serious. I remember some poster "GTS" or something saying you once wanted to find a poster and beat them up.

Incorrect.

And I'm totally serious. You keyboard warriors are a dime a dozen. I know you are a troll, but in the 1% chance you are serious, then why not put your money where your mouth is?


We will see whose the tough guy.
You are so ****ing dumb trying to mess with a future agent.
You wouldn't even know what happens... I can call the Local PD and say you making a bomb, call the DEA and tell them about your stash in your house and they would lock your ass up. There is so many things I can do to your dumb ass.

lol now I know you have no ****ing clue wtf you are talking about. Certified troll. Get the FBI to remove you from my ignore list.

[rizzy]

Finally post to this loser "Showtime".
Hear this. I'm going to arrest you myself on Legal charges ofcourse.
So get ready. Everyone breaks the law. Most get away with it, you won't.
When you do, I will be the federal agent there to arrest you on it and you can take that to the bank.
http://forum.codecall.net/attachments/lounge/1274-internet-tough-guys-inet_tough_guy.jpg

[ukplayer4]

then where are all the other 7 footers making game winners?

jesus. a made shot is a made shot. there is no asterisk in the box score next to 7 footers.

you people will stop at nothing to rationalize why Kobe is worse that Dirk in these situations.



this is spot on, some of you kobe fans are irrational cretins, ginobli uses the same stats as what is being used to try and pump up kobe and idiots come back with saying it doesnt count because dirk is tall therefore its easier for him to get the shot off....WTF?!?!:roll: you tards will stop at nothing...





He's a 7 foot jumpshooter.. how do you defend that?



We're talking about jumpshooters here..Are you really going to act like being 7 feet tall isn't a bigger advantage than kobe's quickness? Dirk gets cleaner looks than kobe because he's always got a lot of height on the guy guarding him where as kobe ussually gives height up to his defender.. facts.


:hammerhead: for the love of god, hes not saying it isnt an advantage wtf is this?

i love how when kobe is statistically at a disadvantage the kobe fans start bringing in a ****ing handicapping system to try and bring down any player that is better than kobe % wise. although if he is better statistically then stats are useless and you "have to watch the game" its :roll:

what is next? i swear if melo hits more game winners we will see this argument from kobe fans "its not a far comparison because melo is a better shooter with the game on the line than kobe, thats an unfair advantage therefore argument thrown out of the window, i win, kobe is still better in the clutch"

weve basically seen that level of argument before in here many times. :roll:

[rizzy]

"Lebron assists don't count because he doesn't play in a triangle"

"Dirk's perimeter/mid-range don't count because he's taller than most"

"Dwight's boards shouldn't count because he simply overpowers everyone with his size"

"Rose wouldn't be able to finish if he wasn't faster than everyone"




The only way statistics count is if you are 210lbs, 6'6, 32yo, play in a Triangle and rape white children

[nashisbest]

what are the stats for Wade?

[Jacks3]

Damn you Kobe haters are pathetic.

[madmax]

"Lebron assists don't count because he doesn't play in a triangle"

"Dirk's perimeter/mid-range don't count because he's taller than most"

"Dwight's boards shouldn't count because he simply overpowers everyone with his size"

"Rose wouldn't be able to finish if he wasn't faster than everyone"




The only way statistics count is if you are 210lbs, 6'6, 32yo, play in a Triangle and rape white children

yup, that's the only criteria which counts for Kome stans unfortunately...what a bunch of insecure lowlifes these guys are:facepalm

[ukplayer4]

"Lebron assists don't count because he doesn't play in a triangle"

"Dirk's perimeter/mid-range don't count because he's taller than most"

"Dwight's boards shouldn't count because he simply overpowers everyone with his size"

"Rose wouldn't be able to finish if he wasn't faster than everyone"




The only way statistics count is if you are 210lbs, 6'6, 32yo, play in a Triangle and rape white children



true

[Ne 1]

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product159/2655_THAM.JPG

http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zv4d9y.jpg

http://oi55.tinypic.com/xnfc6d.jpg

http://oi51.tinypic.com/jsd5zn.jpg

[Ne 1]

yup, that's the only criteria which counts for Kome stans unfortunately...what a bunch of insecure lowlifes these guys are:facepalm

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product159/2655_THAM.JPG

http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zv4d9y.jpg

http://oi55.tinypic.com/xnfc6d.jpg

http://oi51.tinypic.com/jsd5zn.jpg

[Hulk Hogan]

So here you have it, Lebron and Kobe's "Last 10sec" Clutch stats for 08-09 (Lebron's first MVP) til present.

Lebron James
08-09: 1-4 (25%)
09-10: 1-8 (12.5%)
10-11: 1-8 (12.5%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 3-20 (15%)

Kobe Bryant
08-09: 2-6 (33.3%)
09-10: 7-11 (63.6%)
10-11: 1-3 (33.3%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 10-20 (50%)




A well needed bump to bring all trolls back to earth!

[Colby Brian]

http://www.horschgallery.com/admin/uploads/Products/Product159/2655_THAM.JPG

http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zv4d9y.jpg

http://oi55.tinypic.com/xnfc6d.jpg

http://oi51.tinypic.com/jsd5zn.jpg

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rysio]

A well needed bump to bring all trolls back to earth!
:applause:

[ginobli2311]

A well needed bump to bring all trolls back to earth!

They just posted Dirk's numbers on the broadcast last week.

Dirk is 8 out of 14 in these situations the last three years.

Melo also boasts a better percentage than Kobe as well.

Dirk and Melo both better than Kobe on game winners. Yet another metric that favors Dirk. Sounds about right.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Bandito]

Dude Melo is just a beast on hitting game winners. Dirk is too, he is one of my favorite players because of how tough he is.

[ginobli2311]

this is spot on, some of you kobe fans are irrational cretins, ginobli uses the same stats as what is being used to try and pump up kobe and idiots come back with saying it doesnt count because dirk is tall therefore its easier for him to get the shot off....WTF?!?!:roll: you tards will stop at nothing...










:hammerhead: for the love of god, hes not saying it isnt an advantage wtf is this?

i love how when kobe is statistically at a disadvantage the kobe fans start bringing in a ****ing handicapping system to try and bring down any player that is better than kobe % wise. although if he is better statistically then stats are useless and you "have to watch the game" its :roll:

what is next? i swear if melo hits more game winners we will see this argument from kobe fans "its not a far comparison because melo is a better shooter with the game on the line than kobe, thats an unfair advantage therefore argument thrown out of the window, i win, kobe is still better in the clutch"

weve basically seen that level of argument before in here many times. :roll:

so true.

its sad you have to even make this post. its just too ****ing priceless.

dirk's shots don't count as much because he's 7 feet tall. honestly might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

[XxSMSxX]

so true.

its sad you have to even make this post. its just too ****ing priceless.

dirk's shots don't count as much because he's 7 feet tall. honestly might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

Him being at the top of the list wouldn't suprise me. A guy with an automatic jumpshot whose taller than everyone who guards him should be ultra clutch

Oh and what do you expect? Your arguing with trolls sir. :confusedshrug:

[ginobli2311]

Him being at the top of the list wouldn't suprise me. A guy with an automatic jumpshot whose taller than everyone who guards him should be ultra clutch

Oh and what do you expect? Your arguing with trolls sir. :confusedshrug:

yea. he is at the top. he's made 8 out of 14 in the last 3 years. it might be 9 out of 16 now...not sure how up to date those numbers were when i saw them posted.

[amfirst]

I'm sure you guys have seen the stat of this year's Miami Heat: In the last 10 seconds of the 4th or overtime, with the Heat tied or down 1-3pts (one FG), the Heat are shooting 1-18 this season...

We've seen some numbers and blah blah come out showing how Kobe isn't that clutch, or whatever with clutch being defined in various ways (last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, each team up or down 5... etc).

I like the 10 second clutch stat (FGM-FGA in the last 10 seconds of the 4th or OT, with the player's team tied or down 1-3) as a different look on things than we've had in the past because:
A. That means it's basically last second shot time
B. It's when your team is tied or down one shot.. which is much different and feels different than you getting a FGA with your team up 3. In this definition, if you miss, you lose or go into OT for sure basically.

I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays of Lebron and Kobe (for obvious reasons) to see what the stats show under this definition of clutch. Since I started doing this at 4am, I only got a few seasons done, but I'll post anyways and hope to continue my research tomorrow.

So here you have it, Lebron and Kobe's "Last 10sec" Clutch stats for 08-09 (Lebron's first MVP) til present.

Lebron James
08-09: 1-4 (25%)
09-10: 1-8 (12.5%)
10-11: 1-8 (12.5%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 3-20 (15%)

Kobe Bryant
08-09: 2-6 (33.3%)
09-10: 7-11 (63.6%)
10-11: 1-3 (33.3%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 10-20 (50%)

Funny enough, they have the same exact amount of attempts. Not the same amount of makes though.

No point in debating this. We already seen what LeBron can do this season. Either shoot a brick, or pass the ball to Wade to close out the game.

[G-Funk]

Lebron aint clutch, face it ppl!

[winwin]

never mention LeLowIQ in the same breath as Kobe

pleaseeee

[NBASTATMAN]

I'm sure you guys have seen the stat of this year's Miami Heat: In the last 10 seconds of the 4th or overtime, with the Heat tied or down 1-3pts (one FG), the Heat are shooting 1-18 this season...

We've seen some numbers and blah blah come out showing how Kobe isn't that clutch, or whatever with clutch being defined in various ways (last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, each team up or down 5... etc).

I like the 10 second clutch stat (FGM-FGA in the last 10 seconds of the 4th or OT, with the player's team tied or down 1-3) as a different look on things than we've had in the past because:
A. That means it's basically last second shot time
B. It's when your team is tied or down one shot.. which is much different and feels different than you getting a FGA with your team up 3. In this definition, if you miss, you lose or go into OT for sure basically.

I took it upon myself to go through ESPN play-by-plays of Lebron and Kobe (for obvious reasons) to see what the stats show under this definition of clutch. Since I started doing this at 4am, I only got a few seasons done, but I'll post anyways and hope to continue my research tomorrow.

So here you have it, Lebron and Kobe's "Last 10sec" Clutch stats for 08-09 (Lebron's first MVP) til present.

Lebron James
08-09: 1-4 (25%)
09-10: 1-8 (12.5%)
10-11: 1-8 (12.5%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 3-20 (15%)

Kobe Bryant
08-09: 2-6 (33.3%)
09-10: 7-11 (63.6%)
10-11: 1-3 (33.3%)
Total (through last 3 seasons): 10-20 (50%)

Funny enough, they have the same exact amount of attempts. Not the same amount of makes though.


those stats are wrong for kobe 2009-2010..Not sure about the other seasons.. For either kobe or bron..

[LA_Showtime]

those stats are wrong for kobe 2009-2010..Not sure about the other seasons.. For either kobe or bron..

Right. Thanks for clearing that up. What are the "real" stats?

[Hulk Hogan]

those stats are wrong for kobe 2009-2010..Not sure about the other seasons.. For either kobe or bron..

Why don't you post the real facts then you butt-hurt cry-baby...

That is the right stats, you just don't like the results because it doesn't favor your previous assertions!

Infact ESPN showed this in the Miami vs. Thunder game at half-time. Lebron had 15% and Wade had like 10%...

[Simple Jack]

Why don't you post the real facts then you butt-hurt cry-baby...

That is the right stats, you just don't like the results because it doesn't favor your previous assertions!

Infact ESPN showed this in the Miami vs. Thunder game at half-time. Lebron had 15% and Wade had like 10%...

What do you have to say about Dirk in these situations? Just curious as the actual figures have been provided.

[HighFlyer23]

Kobe wankers wanking?

Nothing new to see here

[plowking]

Still Bron Bron