Lopez vs. Howard

[RecSpecs110]

i think our best chance to get dwight is to trade lopez for him, even though our pipe dream would be to simply get him via free agency. however, seeing lopez blossom these last few games, it's making me regret the idea more and more.

lopez and dwight are polar opposites. howard excels from his strength, quickness, and defense. lopez excels from his shooting touch, footwork, and offensive fundamentals.

howard is a terrible free throw shooter, brook is very efficient. sigh, if only you could combine the strengths of both big men. or get them both on the same team.

thoughts?

[D12"Magic"]

If the Only way to get Howard is to trade Lopez then I will do it in a heartbeat.

[RecSpecs110]

of course i would do it, too. no questions asked. dwight is the best center in the league hands down and can single handedly carry a team to contention and no one would pass up the opportunity to pair him up with the best point guard in the league.

it's just that now, we're seeing the potential of a motivated brook lopez, and it's obvious that this guy's a stud. not a project like favors. lopez is unequivocally a stud center right now, a valuable piece. what's also clear is that almost every strength of lopez is a weakness for dwight.

for me, it would be a slow and reluctant heartbeat for lack of a better phrase.

[D12"Magic"]

of course i would do it, too. no questions asked. dwight is the best center in the league hands down and can single handedly carry a team to contention and no one would pass up the opportunity to pair him up with the best point guard in the league.

it's just that now, we're seeing the potential of a motivated brook lopez, and it's obvious that this guy's a stud. not a project like favors. lopez is unequivocally a stud center right now, a valuable piece. what's also clear is that almost every strength of lopez is a weakness for dwight.

for me, it would be a slow and reluctant heartbeat for lack of a better phrase.
I Like Lopez and he has a bright future. Lopez is gifted offensively. Give Dwight touches and he is just as good as Lopez is Offensively. Not to mention Dwight's Defense and posting up ability

[gigantes]

hard for me to post well from this phone gadget, but just wanted to say- i found the topic &posts very apt & intelligent, recspecs. i really enjoy watching players blossom with the team that draftd them, so it would be tough for me to see lopez go... even for the likes of howard.

and one random note- i am really looking forward to the attractive power that brooklyn & the charles barkley facility are going to have on other players around the league, including dwight. it's going to be like having a couple all-star recruiters working for us 24/7, for free. i mean, the old problem of how to attract good players to the nets is going to quickly turn into 'let's make sure we don't make any bad signings or overpay anyone too much', if you know what i mean.

and the issue of making sure that d-will is happy now & happy w the future seems to be evaporating by the day. ^_^

[RecSpecs110]

thanks, and i agree. i'm confident that the nets can re-sign deron if they follow through and get more talent on the team. everything else we have is more enticing than any other team.

[It's A VC3!!!]

A few weeks ago I loved the idea of getting Dwight Howard. I watched many of the Magic's games when Vince was playing for them. Now, the idea of getting rid of Brook Lopez for Dwight is not as good, simply because Lopez is a few years younger, and Dwight demands the ball way too much, which would decrease other players shots, like Morrow,or Farmer, and I don't like that. Basically having Howard on the team means the ball will always be dumped down low into him, and that's not the Nets offense. I would love to keep Deron and Brook, and surround these two superstars with a third star, that plays amazing defense. Josh Smith comes to mind. I hope his name can come up in Billy King's mind soon.

[gigantes]

Josh Smith comes to mind. I hope his name can come up in Billy King's mind soon.
LOL

(edit- not laughing at your suggestion of smith, but over the way you stated that last line)

anyway, good post, and i agree with a lot of it. if the nets were only able to get howard in a sign-and-trade, i don't think it would be a good move. you know, because the wing positions and the bench need a talent infusion, and by giving up several #1 picks to get howard, we'd be stuck for years with mediocrity at too many positions... like the miami heat.

[RecSpecs110]

Hey Hey! I got a better idea. We should first re-sign Humphries and then package him in a deal for Howard instead of Brook. Humphries' increased value will help us.

That way we can slide Brook to a more comfortable position at PF, and have all the benefits on our frontcourt. Brook's post play, shooting touch and free throws. Combined with Dwight's defense, rebounding, and shot blocking.

I would hate to see Humphries go, but Dwight does everything he does and much more.

That would be EPIC!!!

[wang4three]

Dwight demands the ball way too much, which would decrease other players shots, like Morrow,or Farmer, and I don't like that.

I think you'd be the only person in this entire universe that would prefer Anthony Morrow or Jordan Farmar to shoot than Dwight freaking Howard. Brook already takes 3-4 more shots a game than Dwight and shoots 12% worse. Obviously as a Net, we'd hope to get Dwight's shot average to around 15-20, but that's a good thing. When a guy makes 60% of his shots and shoots 15-20 shots per game...that's a good thing.

Oh, and I'd trade Brook easily.

[It's A VC3!!!]

I think you'd be the only person in this entire universe that would prefer Anthony Morrow or Jordan Farmar to shoot than Dwight freaking Howard. Brook already takes 3-4 more shots a game than Dwight and shoots 12% worse. Obviously as a Net, we'd hope to get Dwight's shot average to around 15-20, but that's a good thing. When a guy makes 60% of his shots and shoots 15-20 shots per game...that's a good thing.

Oh, and I'd trade Brook easily.


I don't prefer it, but I have seen how a dwight howard offense looks like. I watched the entire boston vs magic series, where even the commentators stated that the magic are doing the celtics a favor by giving dwight the ball rather then, vince or jameer, or whom ever. don't get me wrong having dwight howard doesn't make us a bad team. i just don't prefer giving up lopez who is several years younger, and nearly identical, stats wise. but if we can get them both on the nets that would be amazing. i can see a co-existence between them two.

[gigantes]

@recspecs,
brook at PF? hmm...

i could maybe see that working on the offensive end, but on the defensive end, i reckon he'd get left in the dust against the average NBA PF.

feel free to convince me, though.

[MTing]

I agree with Gigs here. I dont think Brook is fit to play PF, if we get Dwight, hes probably gone. Either is great though. I really dont mind if dont get Dwight (I dont see him moving imo) because Brook has proven to be a great player. Hes still only 22 guys, he still has time to work on his weaknesses.

[RecSpecs110]

i don't want to sound like a flip-flopper, but after watching the past few games without dwill, i change my mind. brook is to much of a liability on defense and he's way too soft, he gives opponents confidence against him.

i thought he changed, i really did, but he's right back to where he was. i realize that he mostly plays well against weak/short teams. but against the top teams, he folds like a chair. and i don't see him changing with age. a wimp is a wimp. against dwight, he looked like a girl. against horford, he let him school him all game and he accepted it like that was ok.

to build a championsip powerhouse, you cannot have a foundation of a center who plays like a girl against the top teams and against legit big men.

im sorry but brook is soft in every sense of the word. my 4 year old cousin has more fight than him.

we should go all out for dwight.

[RecSpecs110]

we should do our best to keep humphries and morrow, but everybody else should be up for grabs.

we should also try to sign a scoring powerforward who can rebound and defend a bit like david west maybe. he got injured recently, so if we're lucky, we could pick him up for cheap. a big man rotation of west, humphries, and dwight would be a monster.

then we should look for a decent sf. wilson chandler for the right price would be good, but idk if we can get him since he's a rfa.

but a lineup of deron, morrow, chandler, west, howard with a bench of humphries, gaines, outlaw, damion james etc etc, would be a pipe dream. THAT imo would be a legit title contender.

[gigantes]

i guess my point is this- if lopez plays like a beast for long stretches then plays like a wimp for other long stretches, then the situation needs to be examined. that is, it doesn't take a sherlock holmes to figure out that something fundamental has changed.

yes, lopez has his flaws, but he's also a cornerstone of a championship team, IMO.
and yes, howard is better... but we're not assured of getting howard, by any means.

[RecSpecs110]

of course we keep lopez if we cannot get dwight, but as of right now, lopez is nowhere near untouchable.

a cornerstone in my books is a leader and a player who wills his team to win. lopez time and time again has shown us that he has neither quality. his skills are rare, but his flaws almost negate them. your center is your last line of defense. when your center has no presence, it's like your defensive foundation has no base. thats not championship basketball. no team in recent history has won with no defensive foundation.

let me also prove that this is not pure emotion on my part by showing you that brook had 0 rebounds last night. let me repeat: ZERO. i defended him throughout the rebounding issues, but it has gone too far. when you don't care about rebounding to that extent when you're our "cornerstone" center, thats a problem. that not only shows lack of toughness, but lack of interest. usually when your 7 foot and you're in the paint, the ball will fall into your hands. he's not even trying.

[RecSpecs110]

if i may use another team as an example: look at boston. i honestly think they killed their chances of winning it all by trading perkins for krstic.

now im not dogging the trade, bc maybe ainge is thinking about the future, and jeff green brings in youth. and boston is still a great team.

but remember game 7 of last year? perkins got injured and they sorely missed him. why? bc of rebounding and defense: two key things that championship teams with legit centers have.

yes krstic can shoot, i like him. but the c's just lost half of their toughness inside which was invaluable to their success. like my former coach said, 80% of winning is confidence, if opposing teams are confident in driving in the lane for easy layups with no resitance theyll do it. but have an enforcer inside, then theyll think twice about it and usually miss shots they normally make.

[RecSpecs110]

thats why opposing centers frequently have great games offensively against lopez. they're confident that they can score on him anytime they want to.

thats why even when lopez put a hand up and did everything right mechanically, horford still scored with ease. its confidence.

[gigantes]

what i was trying to say gently is that lopez has shown long stretches of being a solid positional defender in addition to everything else he does. therefore if that suddenly changed, then you look at what other thing suddenly changed, i.e. the coaching.

i.e., we already know that he and robin work hard each summer on their skill sets, so unless brook's playing injured, then something has changed outside of himself. hence, the sherlock holmes reference.

as for rebounding, it's obvious that the staff has given lopez instructions to release early when he sees a teammate with a clear path to the rebound. hence, the lower boards statistic. it's also obvious that they did this to offset his lumbering footspeed, trying to get the post offense set up a little earlier in the shot clock.

regardless, lopez seems to work great with d-will, and i still think we're all set at the 1 and the 5 slots.

[RecSpecs110]

avery said earlier in the season that he dreams about his center getting 10 rebounds. those were his exact quotes regarding lopez. i highly doubt he's asking lopez to not box out and breakout early. in fact dwill also encouraged him to crash the boards more. that's why as soon as the trade happen, you could see lopez getting more rebounds and making the effort to do so. but apparently, it didn't last long. he's right back to square one, old habits and tendencies.

letting your teammates secure the rebound when no players on the opposing team are nearby is one thing. not boxing out properly, not getting proper position, and letting your man score easy layups after the O board is another.

even if he was instructed to get early post position, lopez shied away from the post all game long and settled for jumpshots again. that's why he scored only 9 points.

i'm sorry but there just isn't an excuse for 0 rebounds from the center when he plays 30+ minutes, there just isn't. lopez could score 50 points, i don't care. that isn't winning basketball no matter how you twist it.

[wang4three]

I don't prefer it, but I have seen how a dwight howard offense looks like. I watched the entire boston vs magic series, where even the commentators stated that the magic are doing the celtics a favor by giving dwight the ball rather then, vince or jameer, or whom ever. don't get me wrong having dwight howard doesn't make us a bad team. i just don't prefer giving up lopez who is several years younger, and nearly identical, stats wise. but if we can get them both on the nets that would be amazing. i can see a co-existence between them two.

I have the opposite feeling when I watch the Magic. I think Jameer is jacking up too many shots and not feeding Dwight enough. Dwight gets good shots not only for himself, but everyone around him. He's a fairly decent passer, and not as in finding open guys, but getting the ball reversed around so that shooters get their shots.

I don't think Brook and Dwight are good co-existing tandem unless you plan to turn Brook into purely a jump shooter which would be detrimental. The two of them are too big to co-exist in the paint and Brook isn't scrappy enough to get lose balls for put backs. I'm fine with Hump being our PF if we had Dwight. He's still willing to do the dirty work and if he develops a nice little jumper with consistency, he'd be fine.

I also don't like picking Brook just because he's 2-3 years younger. Dwight was a dominant force by his 3rd year in the league and the Magic were building around him. And he came out of high school. Brook is in his third year after being a sophomore in college and he hasn't look as good as Dwight. I don't know what you mean by identical stat wise because outside of FT%, Brook isn't better than Dwight at any statistic.

Also have to consider that Deron wants to win now, not win later. He doesn't want to be in his near 30s waiting for Brook to become better.

But all of this is moot. I don't see Dwight leaving ORL at all. He seems to be happy there and overall seems like a loyal guy.

If I have a wish for Brook next year (outside of rebounding), it's to learn some more post moves. He's going to his left shoulder too much and its becoming obvious that he wants to go that way. He needs to learn how to pivot both ways and to better hone that left hand jump hook.

[RecSpecs110]

I have the opposite feeling when I watch the Magic. I think Jameer is jacking up too many shots and not feeding Dwight enough. Dwight gets good shots not only for himself, but everyone around him. He's a fairly decent passer, and not as in finding open guys, but getting the ball reversed around so that shooters get their shots.

I don't think Brook and Dwight are good co-existing tandem unless you plan to turn Brook into purely a jump shooter which would be detrimental. The two of them are too big to co-exist in the paint and Brook isn't scrappy enough to get lose balls for put backs. I'm fine with Hump being our PF if we had Dwight. He's still willing to do the dirty work and if he develops a nice little jumper with consistency, he'd be fine.

I also don't like picking Brook just because he's 2-3 years younger. Dwight was a dominant force by his 3rd year in the league and the Magic were building around him. And he came out of high school. Brook is in his third year after being a sophomore in college and he hasn't look as good as Dwight. I don't know what you mean by identical stat wise because outside of FT%, Brook isn't better than Dwight at any statistic.

Also have to consider that Deron wants to win now, not win later. He doesn't want to be in his near 30s waiting for Brook to become better.

But all of this is moot. I don't see Dwight leaving ORL at all. He seems to be happy there and overall seems like a loyal guy.

If I have a wish for Brook next year (outside of rebounding), it's to learn some more post moves. He's going to his left shoulder too much and its becoming obvious that he wants to go that way. He needs to learn how to pivot both ways and to better hone that left hand jump hook.

Maybe, but I'm not going to fall for his "loyalty" that easily just because he's a friendly and funny guy. He's just as hungry as Deron, LeBron, and every other star to win a championship.

It's pretty clear he's frustrated with playing with guys who chuck threes instead of giving him the ball. I saw it at the Knicks game, He mouthed "Give me the ball!" he was definitely frustrated. I'm know I'm biased when I say this, but I think he's drooling at the thought of playing with Deron, a guy who not only runs the pick and the roll with ease but can find guys with surgical precision.

There are a lot of moments when Dwight is wide open under the basket for a split second, but he never gets the ball because his teammates can't see him. Deron is someone who can see and execute those passes, and Dwight knows it.

And if the Magic don't make it out of the east this time, I could see him seriously weighing his option to leave, not necessarily to the Nets but just somewhere else. Let's face it, they're not a real threat to win it all, they never were. Would Magic fans be upset? Sure. But I think they should look at management first for putting Dwight on an island while surrounding him with mediocre talent and bad contracts like Arenas and Richardson.

[gigantes]

@recspecs,
the passing stats and the public statements mean very little to me, frankly. what i want to know is this-

why was lopez both a productive and promising player under his first two NBA coaches, and now a third-year disappointment under AJ? and why has every player on the roster had a below-average season other than hump? and how did a young player, non-star, and guy who's only earning rookie money, suddenly decide on his own to start roaming more, basically being less efficient in almost all areas, unless his coach has something to do with it?

anyway, it's waaaaaaay to early for me to give up on lopez. and maybe it's naive and simple-minded for me to think about it this way, and maybe this season represents progress that won't be realised and won't be reaped until later down the line, but everything looked pretty good for brook lopez before avery johnson showed up.

btw, i wouldn't argue your in-game observations. you watch a hell of a lot more games than i do, so you probably know better than i do about that stuff.

[RecSpecs110]

@recspecs,
the passing stats and the public statements mean very little to me, frankly. what i want to know is this-

why was lopez both a productive and promising player under his first two NBA coaches, and now a third-year disappointment under AJ? and why has every player on the roster had a below-average season other than hump? and how did a young player, non-star, and guy who's only earning rookie money, suddenly decide on his own to start roaming more, basically being less efficient in almost all areas, unless his coach has something to do with it?

anyway, it's waaaaaaay to early for me to give up on lopez. and maybe it's naive and simple-minded for me to think about it this way, and maybe this season represents progress that won't be realised and won't be reaped until later down the line, but everything looked pretty good for brook lopez before avery johnson showed up.

btw, i wouldn't argue your in-game observations. you watch a hell of a lot more games than i do, so you probably know better than i do about that stuff.

I don't really like Avery that much either. He's annoying and players will eventually tune him out. And it's apparent that Brook isn't so fond of him, either. But again, I cannot account for such a drop off in production just because of a coaching change. it may be the coach, but it also could be that Lopez is fed up with this organization. After last year's debacle and some of the moves the Nets are making, he may not see his future in Brooklyn. I don't know, it's all speculation.

Maybe it's the lingering mono, maybe Brook needs a few more years to actually break out of his shell. But he is a sophomore out of college ready made NBA player who's in his third year, so I'm not going to give him that easy of a pass like i did with Favors.

The thing that irks me is that I've seen Lopez do it. I've seen him snare 14 rebounds before against the Laker bigs, but if he doesn't feel like playing 4 out of 5 games, it won't work. And Deron isn't going to wait for him either. He wants everybody on the same page, playing at their best with a "championship or bust" attitude. Maybe this year gets a pass because the Nets are out of the playoff race. But next year is a different story, the Nets need to convince him that this is the place to be, and it won't be accomplished with players playing without their heads in the game. If any of the lingering losing mentality remains next year at all, consider him out the door.

By getting Deron himself, all signs point that management is in win now mode. If Brook has something magical to show us, it's in his best interest to show it now.

[gigantes]

well, since you don't know either, let me know if you do find out, one day.

i would really like to know!

[RecSpecs110]

lopez against the knicks, active in the fist half. but absolutely invisible in the second when the knicks turned up their defensive pressure on him. this is how its been all along. when the going gets tough, lopez folds. never mind his complete lack of defensive awareness as well.

and did you see the crucial play with a minute to go in the 4th when he loses his shoe and tries to put it back on while the ball is still in play and the ball bounces off his back and out of bounds. in that critical juncture, you cannot do that. thats something you do in peewee basketball, not the nba.

im trying my best to give lopez a chance but he isnt giving me anything to defend. he has the willpower and toughness of a 3 year old. and mind you this is regular season. think about the playoffs when guys play much harder and dirtier and scouting reports/adustments will be tighter. lopez will be eaten alive.

[RecSpecs110]

A comment from a fan at Netsdaily:

"This Lopez shoe situation

shows me one thing. He doesn’t have “it”.

Deron can make him a better player but he can’t give him the heart that he needs to be at that elite level..

In a close game this guy was actually more worried about his shoes. HIS FREAKING SHOE.

HIS SHOE. While his teammates are hustling for the ball you see your second best player actually tying his shoe.

If you are Deron or Hump you are upset and I mean pissed.

No amount of weight. Training or anything will change that. Everything you wanted to know about Lopez was told in that moment."

A different fan who watched the Knicks game live:

"There’s no teaching spine. There’s no cultivating heart. There’s no coaching focus.

He doesn’t have it, he never had it, and he never will."

"It's not a one game assessment, nor is it hate

It’s years of watching him, every single game, and seeing absolutely no growth in the brain or heart. He doesn’t have it."

[RecSpecs110]

Lopez with 3 rebounds in 40 minutes against the Heat without Kris Humphries playing (so no excuses that Humprhries takes away rebounds from him). And again, shot a poor percentage, because he settled for jumpshots.

Not to mention, his double teams are as weak as can be, he doesn't even pressure the guy with the ball, he just stands there with his hand raised like an idiot.

He made Zydrunas Illgauskas and Erick Dampier look like freaking Duncan and Robinson.

I'm obviously not blaming the loss only on him, but Lopez is a proven loser. You will not win a championship with him as your #2 or even #3 best player on your team. The fact that he is called a "cornerstone" is laughable.

We are not set at the center position, and he is becoming more and more expendable in my eyes.

Please let us be able to trade him for Dwight Howard. That way, we can actually have a center with a pair of balls, and Lopez can go to Disney World anytime he wants to.

Lopez is a bum, a class A bum. A clutz, a loser, a wuss, a wimp, a mental midget.

If I were 7 feet tall, I swear I would own EVERY rebound that came into my vicinity. I wouldn't let some punks get the best of me.

[gigantes]

recspecs, i wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind about anything in the world, but just an FYI for you and/or anyone else, re: brook lopez... in case this wasn't known:

last week, news came out of rotoworld / other sources about lopez' arm. specifically, he has been been battling a calcium deposit in his arm all season, and apparently it's been bothering him more, lately. also that he's been reluctant to bring it up this season, for what i would think are obvious reasons.

apparently, whenever his arm gets bumped, it hurts. also, i would imagine that having soft tissue in your arm fill up with loose calcium would not be real helpful towards that arm's overall strength and quickness.

hopefully this gets fixed over the summer.
or maybe one day he'll be known as brook "arms of stone" lopez. :(

[Nets fan 93]

Lopez with 3 rebounds in 40 minutes against the Heat without Kris Humphries playing (so no excuses that Humprhries takes away rebounds from him). And again, shot a poor percentage, because he settled for jumpshots.

Not to mention, his double teams are as weak as can be, he doesn't even pressure the guy with the ball, he just stands there with his hand raised like an idiot.

He made Zydrunas Illgauskas and Erick Dampier look like freaking Duncan and Robinson.

I'm obviously not blaming the loss only on him, but Lopez is a proven loser. You will not win a championship with him as your #2 or even #3 best player on your team. The fact that he is called a "cornerstone" is laughable.

We are not set at the center position, and he is becoming more and more expendable in my eyes.

Please let us be able to trade him for Dwight Howard. That way, we can actually have a center with a pair of balls, and Lopez can go to Disney World anytime he wants to.

Lopez is a bum, a class A bum. A clutz, a loser, a wuss, a wimp, a mental midget.

If I were 7 feet tall, I swear I would own EVERY rebound that came into my vicinity. I wouldn't let some punks get the best of me.
How many better centers can the nets realistically trade for. Think about that. The Nets just can't magically trade for a center that is better than Lopez. What assets do we have besides Lopez and Williams? NOTHING.

[RecSpecs110]

How many better centers can the nets realistically trade for. Think about that. The Nets just can't magically trade for a center that is better than Lopez. What assets do we have besides Lopez and Williams? NOTHING.

Depending upon what we can get back for Lopez, we may need to fill other needs than the center position. If we're good at every other position both on offense and defense, I would trade Lopez and settle for an average center.

The only thing Lopez does consistently is score the ball, and that's usually without putting pressure on the defense (drawing fouls), because he takes mostly jumpshots. EVERYTHING else he does is a liability. He HURTS the team.

Scoring 22 points a night isn't so sexy when you give up 26 to your man and also let the other team's guards waltz in and score easy layups. Think of why even with such a prolific scorer like him, we still lose most of our games even against bad teams. It's because he has no defensive presence. He scores on one end, and gives layups/open shots on the other.

My point is he is not untouchable anymore, it's not even close. If teams are calling, Billy King better be weighing in the options. And we should always be pursuing Dwight Howard, no matter how slim the chances are.

Look at the bigger picture. Deron Williams is someone who wants to play for a contender. At least we need are players who are winners, guys who will do whatever it takes to win. Brook Lopez has consistently shown us that he is not that guy. And as a #1/#2 option, the Nets will never win, just look at the past 3 seasons with Brook.

And plus, miracle trades can be made, just look at the one we just did.

[gigantes]

recspecs- no offense, but has anyone ever told you that you can be a bit of a killjoy?

i -do- realise that you're just calling the shots as you see them, and i appreciate the honesty in that very much. more than i can explain. OTOH, sometimes (IMO) you can bury your teeth into an issue so firmly that it seems almost impossible for you to let go.

i mean, i KNOW you want the best for the nets... i always feel that very strongly.

[RecSpecs110]

recspecs- no offense, but has anyone ever told you that you can be a bit of a killjoy?

i -do- realise that you're just calling the shots as you see them, and i appreciate the honesty in that very much. more than i can explain. OTOH, sometimes (IMO) you can bury your teeth into an issue so firmly that it seems almost impossible for you to let go.

i mean, i KNOW you want the best for the nets... i always feel that very strongly.

People have said I'm weird for how hard/passionate I am about the Nets. And honestly, I completely understand. In any other circumstance, I'm normal/cool/indifferent. But again when it comes to the Nets, I can get wrapped up.

I post over at Netsdaily as well, and those guys are just as diehard as I am. They say the same things I do about Brook and the rest of the team. Think of like 100 me's, I know crazy right? As heated as I can get, the Nets are very frustrating to watch, and I think this forum is more chill/accepts mediocrity than I get upset.

Bottom line is that I expect the Nets to play with heart and with a purpose, so that they deserve the few true fans that they have. And if they don't, I'm gonna ***** about it, I'm sorry but that's the way I am.

[gigantes]

well, i've been posting at netsdaily longer than you have, and i've seen the reaction on lopez cut both ways ever since he's been drafted.

[RecSpecs110]

well, i've been posting at netsdaily longer than you have, and i've seen the reaction on lopez cut both ways ever since he's been drafted.

I, as well as others, had nothing but praise for Lopez his first two years (even with his consistent flaws), but this year (especially this last stretch of games with DWill) was the breaking point.

And "cut both ways" is a euphemism in that most of the board is highly critical of Lopez this season with some members defending him with "he's still young" and "he had mono" excuses.

And what screen do you use? I had a feeling you did post there but wasn't sure.

[gigantes]

same ID last time i checked.
*yep- same ID* although i see that i registered two months after they opened the boards to the public, so it's possible you did beat me to that.

and - surprise surprise - i disagree with your evaluation that most of the board is highly critical of lopez. you've got confirmation bias IMO.

anyway, i hesitated to say this before, but i think you're in for a long, painful offseason if you're aching for them to trade lopez. it's just not going to happen for any number of reasons, only some of those related to how good or bad the NBA perceives him to be.

you know who i miss at the center spot?
todd mccullough.

but now he's a pinball collector with a huge paunch.

[RecSpecs110]

same ID last time i checked.
*yep- same ID* although i see that i registered two months after they opened the boards to the public, so it's possible you did beat me to that.

and - surprise surprise - i disagree with your evaluation that most of the board is highly critical of lopez. you've got confirmation bias IMO.

anyway, i hesitated to say this before, but i think you're in for a long, painful offseason if you're aching for them to trade lopez. it's just not going to happen for any number of reasons, only some of those related to how good or bad the NBA perceives him to be.

you know who i miss at the center spot?
todd mccullough.

but now he's a pinball collector with a huge paunch.

I've seen most of the comments after each game and before each game for the better part of this whole season. It's not bias. Did you see the comments after the Knicks game? Literally everybody was writing in caps going after his head. I almost felt bad for the guy.

The fact that a few of the posters defending Lopez have to say "Why all the Lopez hate?" or "Why is everyone hating on Lopez?" and show statistics to try to defend their point is pretty indicative that a decent portion of the board is critical of him. Whether or not it's justified.

I'm not aching for the Nets to trade Lopez, I'm just removing the "untouchable" status that he has carried around yet not backed up. If we get an opportunity to get Howard, then I would look for a trade. Or if we can get quality NBA starters at the PF, SF, and SG positions, I would maybe consider a trade depending upon the actual players we get back.

Todd Macculloch? Alright, I honestly think we should just agree to disagree, because it's clear that you accept mediocrity. I also remember you supporting Jason Collins, too. Do you have some sort of favoritism towards soft slow big men?

[gigantes]

ooooookkkaaay....
pardon me while i go sharpen a pencil and stick it in my eye.

[RecSpecs110]

Now what would compel you to do that? Are you related to any of those players?

[It's A VC3!!!]

If you're post is intended to only say Lopez is no longer "untouchable" then I agree RecSpecs110. Will he be traded? I think the Nets may try to trade him,eventually because they want Dwight Howard, but putting Lopez out in the trade market is a very risky buisness because at nearly 23 years old, offers will come flying in left and right, and the Nets would never want to give Lopez up for nothing less then a cornerstone peice. Several Nets reporters have already said the Nets are interested in Dwight Howard, Williams is interested in Dwight, and gaining a center like Howard means losing Lopez, and if that's what needs to happen, King will make it happen. But my opinion is the Nets are very happy with Lopez currently, and one or two years ago they claimed he was untouchable, and would remain untouchable for the years to come, but as good and young Lopez is, I'm sure the Nets would pull the trigger for a great deal involving Lopez.


*And to comment on his talent and what he brings to the table every night, I am very satisfied. He may not be the #1 option, but his stats prove he can play, and putting up these numbers at a young age can only mean good news. I realize his rebounding numbers are pathetic, and his defense needs improvement, but atleast we're not saying he has the skillset Petro has, and just by us mentioning a trade for Lopez for Howard must clearly mean that Lopez is not a bum and that he is very good. I'm not saying it would be a straight-up deal Lopez for Howard, but if the Magic got Lopez he would obviously be the Magic's biggest peice, so at nearly 23 years old I am not rady to put Lopez down for his struggle.

[5 Star]

Personally, I'm happy with Brooks production. I also would much rather keep him over Dwight (one dimensional) Howard.

I would rather see the team peruse Danny Granger and build around Lopez and Deron Williams. Just my .02 cents.

[Nets fan 93]

Lopez was never untouchable in my opinion. I still love his offensive game. His rebounding is somethIng that fans should be afraid of though. I dont see him improving very much. Idk why his numbers have been so low this season. Last time the nets switched coaches (frank to kiki) his rebounding wasnt affected. Is the coach the problem? Back on topic though, he was always tradeable for a player like howard.

[RecSpecs110]

my "lopez is a bum" comment was directed towards his lack of mental toughness. i know skills. ive seen him beast. he has all the physical qualities to beast on both ends, but his head is not in the game. when the pressure is on, he continues to fold. and you cannot win playoff games, let alone championships, with your best player folding in pressure situations. that was my point.

lopez is a good player, but he is not a great player. he does not have the attributes to lead a team. so unless we get some quality nba talent around him, he is expendable imo. for example, if we had the 2002-2003 roster with lopez, that would be awesome. thats a contender.

but lopez is our only effective option that won't cut it.

[gigantes]

Now what would compel you to do that? Are you related to any of those players?
1- think of it as an alternative to banging my head against a brick wall.
2- yes- i'm related to all other human beings.


...Idk why his numbers have been so low this season. Last time the nets switched coaches (frank to kiki) his rebounding wasnt affected. Is the coach the problem?...
take your pick of any of these:

- lingering case of mono.
- playing under a sanity-challenged coach.
- right arm filling up with calcium, making it painful to use in a basketball game.

or let me put it another way- do any of those things sound like reasons why lopez should be playing better this season?

[RecSpecs110]

1- think of it as an alternative to banging my head against a brick wall.
2- yes- i'm related to all other human beings.


take your pick of any of these:

- lingering case of mono.
- playing under a sanity-challenged coach.
- right arm filling up with calcium, making it painful to use in a basketball game.

or let me put it another way- do any of those things sound like reasons why lopez should be playing better this season?

"Lingering mono" isn't a reason to be playing subpar basketball. If you have mono, you can't walk straight, much less play an entire season of basketball.

Alright, are you closely related to those players? The reason I ask is because you're talking like you're a parent defending their young son/daughter, reaching and pulling every excuse card within your grasp.

Kobe plays with a broken finger. Deron plays with a strained tendon in his wrist and still, albeit his shooting is off, takes dives on the floor until his coach forces him to stop.

There are many players who play through pain, and still produce numbers and provide the effort. This isn't the peewee basketball league, man. It's the NBA.

I find it funny how you methodically defend Brook and pull out every excuse for him, yet you're that quick to throw Avery under the bus. I'm not a big fan of Avery, but please enlighten me, it's Avery's fault that Brook doesn't feel like rebounding or playing hard on defense?

Again, are you closely related to Brook?

[gigantes]

"Lingering mono" isn't a reason to be playing subpar basketball. If you have mono, you can't walk straight, much less play an entire season of basketball."
is that right, doctor? and where did you go to medical school, exactly?

[It's A VC3!!!]

i realize we are all nets brothers up in here, but the battering; is it worth it? whatever happens involing lopez will make us better, king would not trade lopez for garbage. that is, if he gets traded of course.

[RecSpecs110]

is that right, doctor? and where did you go to medical school, exactly?

And who said you need to be a doctor to do simple research about an illness? I have two friends who had mono, they were both bedridden for about a month. It's serious stuff.

Brook had mono a year ago. He's played in every game this season. That wouldn't be possible if he still had it.

Anyhow, I'm done with this. Brook is a good player and, surrounded by enough NBA talent, would be a decent piece. But he is not a leader or a foundation. Mentally, he's a wimp. As are Outlaw and the rest of the scrubs on this team. Difference is that Brook was the one who was put on a pedestal and called untouchable, which I accepted at the start of the season but not anymore.

[gigantes]

And who said you need to be a doctor to do simple research about an illness? I have two friends who had mono, they were both bedridden for about a month. It's serious stuff...
exactly; it's serious stuff. which is why one shouldn't underestimate its impact, even past the 'official' heal date. was that so hard to understand?

every athlete has disappointing and puzzling years from time to time, and my theory is that situations like this are sometimes the cause. i.e., you're not talking about an office worker who got over a serious illness and was able to struggle back to work in order to spend 90% of their time using a mouse and keyboard. no, we're talking about guys who need to be in peak athletic form to perform at their baseline, lest the fans and the fantasy league owners get pissed.

but meanwhile, while these guys were sick and resting, some of the physical attributes that helped make them peak athletes sunk down to mortal levels. and it can take a surprisingly long time to get back to peak levels again. i've seen it across a range of sports with a variety of guys.

the fact is that small differences can make wide differences in athletic performance. small differences like resting / active heart rate, lactic acid build rate, lactic acid tolerance, oxygen saturation potential in red blood cells, etc. not to mention body fat ratio, lean muscle mass, etc etc.

for me it's just the scientific method at work- if there are unknowns in play, err on the side of caution. work to increase your sample size and work to reduce your unknowns.


...Anyhow, I'm done with this...
really? you mean you're going to stop repeating the same things over and over again? do you figure that's healthy?

[MTing]

Can't you guys can debate and not get all sarcastic on each other? :lol

I think the word untouchable is used to much. Honestly I believe only a few players in this league are really untradable like LeBron and Dwight. I'm sure there a few more but not that much.
There are players like Brook that are young, talented and have a long way to go but I'm positive that if the opportunity came and there was a trade for a better player, that we'd take it. But those trades are very rare. I think that D-Will trade this year was as rare of a trade as they come. It was a miracle and they dont happen often. Thats what Gigs is trying to get at I think.

So obviously all of us would take a Dwight-Brook trade but, in the mean time we need to think about devoloping Brook because if all we do is expect Dwight to come, I feel like were in for a MAJOR disappointment. Hoping and praying for good players is what Knick fans do.

[RecSpecs110]

yes, and if the owners had the time to wait to scientifically eliminate every possibility of what's going on with their players, they would.

unfortunately thats not how it works, especially in the circumstance the nets are in. they have a certain player they need to keep happy before he runs off and leaves the org a trail of dust. and unless they present a core of players significantly better by next year, consider that possibility an actuality.

[MTing]

I'll admit Brooks been disappointing this year, mono or not. But I'm still not giving up on him. If he continues to play like he did this season next year, then I'll be right there with you. I think its only fair to give him at least a full season with Deron to see if he really doesnt have that toughness.

[Nets fan 93]

I'll admit Brooks been disappointing this year, mono or not. But I'm still not giving up on him. If he continues to play like he did this season next year, then I'll be right there with you. I think its only fair to give him at least a full season with Deron to see if he really doesnt have that toughness. i feel the same way.