Was the 2004 Finals the biggest NBA upset ever?

[Colby Brian]

Was it or was their a bigger upset?

2004 NBA Finals. Detroit Pistons trouncing the Los Angeles Lakers. The Lakers had Kobe, Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton. The Pistons beat them in 5 games. 3 of their 4 wins were won by 12 pts or more. The only game the Lakers won was because of a last second 3-pointer by Kobe. The Lakers were supposedly "unbeatable." They were beaten badly and were so embarrassed they completely dismantled the team the following year. This is the biggest, most underrated upset of all time.

[asdf1990]

yes it was . prime shaq, good kobe . loaded with great vets.

[Mark Madsen]

Easily, considering how favored LA was

But Detroit had one of the best defenses in league history that year so they deserve the credit.

[KG5MVP]

shaq was having a great series, the sole reason lakers lost is because of kobe, look at his stats in that finals, horrible, 30% shooting

[TennesseeFan]

Kobe had a horrible series.

[griffmoney1784]

biggest finals upset

biggest playoff upset was warriors over mavs 1st round

and btw its funny how kobes the leader whenever the lakers lost in the last 15 years. but never the leader when the lakers won

fact is kobe was the 1st option from 2001 on

look at the FGA's... shaq was the #1 option only from 1996-2000

finals mvps are only for 1 series. kobe was mvp for the important series

[Colby Brian]

kobe did have a bad series, 22.6 ppg on 38.1 fg%

but he was the reason they they didnt get swept and won game 2

[griffmoney1784]

kobe did have a bad series, 22.6 ppg on 38.1 fg%

but he was the reason they they didnt get swept and won game 2


how about this....

ben wallace was able to defend shaq 1 on 1.... leaving kobe to be doubled and tripled into bad forced shots since malone was injured and payton was shooting even worse

and after that the team sucked

[Colby Brian]

how about this....

ben wallace was able to defend shaq 1 on 1.... leaving kobe to be doubled and tripled into bad forced shots since malone was injured and payton was shooting even worse

and after that the team sucked

yeah, but give the pistons credit, they played way better than the lakers way better

[griffmoney1784]

yeah, but give the pistons credit, they played way better than the lakers way better

cause the lakers were basically this years heat +1

they had no chemistry and if 1 guy is off or injured... the team goes from great to bad...

this is why kobe woke up and demanded the overhall of the team top to bottum

and it paid off


if it wasnt for the lakers losing to the pistons... shaq might still be here and kobe never would have gotten his own team built around him

losing to the pistons actually helped kobes all time status

[griffmoney1784]

change that series and this would be kobes career

- 4 titles in 4 finals
- 0 finals mvps
- 0 season mvps
from 2005 on the team would be

- fisher
- kobe 25 mill/season
- george
- slava
- shaq 30 mill/season

bench = scrubs

kobe = top 15 player all time tops

--------------------------------------------------

instead because of LA losing and shaq leaving

- 5 titles in 7 finals ( more to come )
- 2 finals mvps ( more to come )
- 1 season mvp ( never know might win next year )
top 6-7 all time right now



thankyou from the bottum of my heart pistons...

[Mark Madsen]

biggest finals upset

biggest playoff upset was warriors over mavs 1st round

and btw its funny how kobes the leader whenever the lakers lost in the last 15 years. but never the leader when the lakers won

fact is kobe was the 1st option from 2001 on

look at the FGA's... shaq was the #1 option only from 1996-2000

finals mvps are only for 1 series. kobe was mvp for the important series

Only Kobe fans would state the opposite of what Kobe himself has stated

and just :roll: :roll: at last statement

[LAClipsFan33]

how about this....ben wallace was able to defend shaq 1 on 1


Untrue.

What happened was that Larry Brown destroyed Phil Jackson. All year every team came out and doubled and tripled Shaq allowing Kobe to go off freely one on one all game.

Larry came up with the gameplan of doubling Kobe instead. Phil never adjusted and Kobe never stopped chucking over two defenders. This is what happened...

[TrueRob]

Kobe had a horrible series.

Pretty much. The Lakers were able to beat prime Duncan and the Spurs who had even better defense than Detroit that year.

[Stuckey]

pretty sure if the lakers stuck together, they could have won at least another between '05-'07

[griffmoney1784]

Only Kobe fans would state the opposite of what Kobe himself has stated

and just :roll: :roll: at last statement

the real finals wasnt LA vs pacers/sixers/nets

anyone who watched ball in the early 00's knew the real finals was the WCF and against teams like sanantonio and sacramento

kobe was the mvp of those REAL finals

[Colby Brian]

Pretty much. The Lakers were able to beat prime Duncan and the Spurs who had even better defense than Detroit that year.

no, the pistons were better by far defensivly

[Colby Brian]

pretty sure if the lakers stuck together, they could have won at least another between '05-'07

yeah, that was kobes best prime years 06-08, but im glad on whats happining right now

[TrueRob]

no, the pistons were better by far defensivly

Spurs had a better team defense rating than Detroit. But, I guess Detroit had the better defenders to contain Kobe.

[griffmoney1784]

pretty sure if the lakers stuck together, they could have won at least another between '05-'07

impossible

malone and payton were finished

shaq was asking for 30mill/season

they would have been 10 mill over the cap with just 2 players.

and people forget that shaq weighd 350 pounds before getting in shape for miami...

he would have still been his same old fat POS self with no motivation from 05 - 07

[Colby Brian]

Spurs had a better team defense rating than Detroit. But, I guess Detroit had the better defenders to contain Kobe.

i dont care about no rating, if you watched the game you would know, numbers dont tell the whole story

[griffmoney1784]

i dont care about no rating, if you watched the game you would know, numbers dont tell the whole story


they were the best defensive team that year for sure

but put the last 2 lakers championship teams against the 2004 pistons... and see if theyre still able to double kobe the way they did

it was 2 on 5 for that series

the 2004 lakers were a 2 man team... 5 > any 2 any time


i thank malone and payton for losing that series

[ShaqAttack3234]

biggest finals upset

biggest playoff upset was warriors over mavs 1st round

and btw its funny how kobes the leader whenever the lakers lost in the last 15 years. but never the leader when the lakers won

fact is kobe was the 1st option from 2001 on

look at the FGA's... shaq was the #1 option only from 1996-2000

finals mvps are only for 1 series. kobe was mvp for the important series
:roll: :oldlol: :roll:

"Coach Phil Jackson is continually reminding Bryant that Shaquille O'Neal is the team's top scoring option."- December 11th, 2000 Detroit News

"Shaq's our first option anyway, regardless," Jackson said. "We're going to try to get the ball into Shaquille."- Phil Jackson May 1st, 2004 Los Angeles Times

I think the coach knew who the first option was. And Shaq was the leading scorer on the Lakers during the 3peat every year during the regular season, playoffs as a whole and finals.

Kobe was the MVP of the important series? He was MVP of 2 series during the 3peat, the 2001 WCF and the 2002 WCSF.

In 2001, the closest, most competitive series was the finals, guess who was MVP? In 2002, it was the WCF vs Sacramento and again, Shaq was the MVP of that series.

The Lakers went 25-6 with Shaq and without Kobe during the 3peat, but just 13-12 with Kobe and without Shaq.

[Micku]

no, the pistons were better by far defensivly

No. That wasn't the case. The Spurs had an almost defense rating and kept teams to a lower ppg than the Pistons, 84.3 ppg.They were equal defensively in the season.

But Pistons had better stretches of defense, but the Spurs were more consistently throughout the season. However, it was an upset that the Pistons made to the finals at all, let alone beat the Lakers. Pistons get the nod of being one of the best defensively because they went to the finals and beat the Lakers.

The Pistons upset the Lakers. Everybody picked the Lakers to win, but the Pistons D, the Lakers sucky O, and Malone being injured hurt the Lakers. And they eventually lost the series.

You can argue that the Lakers got lucky in the Spurs series too. If it weren't for the .4 Fisher shot, the Spurs would've been up by 3-2.

But to the main topic:

I think it was the biggest upset of the NBA finals. The Lakers after beating the Timberwolves, just shrugged off the Pistons. I don't think they even cared about watching the videos. Even the commentators were like "Pistons have no chance of beating the Lakers."

[KG5MVP]

kobe did have a bad series, 22.6 ppg on 38.1 fg%

but he was the reason they they didnt get swept and won game 2

but he was the reason they lost the series

[Mark Madsen]

they were the best defensive team that year for sure

but put the last 2 lakers championship teams against the 2004 pistons... and see if theyre still able to double kobe the way they did

it was 2 on 5 for that series

the 2004 lakers were a 2 man team... 5 > any 2 any time


i thank malone and payton for losing that series

so it goes from kobe being the mvp of "important series" to his team having to carry him when he fails in more important series :lol

also 04 was the only finals where kobe had more FGA than shaq and look at the outcome :lol

[griffmoney1784]

:roll: :oldlol: :roll:

"Coach Phil Jackson is continually reminding Bryant that Shaquille O'Neal is the team's top scoring option."- December 11th, 2000 Detroit News

"Shaq's our first option anyway, regardless," Jackson said. "We're going to try to get the ball into Shaquille."- Phil Jackson May 1st, 2004 Los Angeles Times

I think the coach knew who the first option was. And Shaq was the leading scorer on the Lakers during the 3peat every year during the regular season, playoffs as a whole and finals.

Kobe was the MVP of the important series? He was MVP of 2 series during the 3peat, the 2001 WCF and the 2002 WCSF.

In 2001, the closest, most competitive series was the finals, guess who was MVP? In 2002, it was the WCF vs Sacramento and again, Shaq was the MVP of that series.

The Lakers went 25-6 with Shaq and without Kobe during the 3peat, but just 13-12 with Kobe and without Shaq.


Lakers leader in FGA's ( AKA #1 OPTION ) from 1996-97 to 2003-04



1996-97 Shaquille O'neal 19.4 FGA's
1997-98 Shaquille O'neal 19.1
1998-99 Shaquille O'neal 18.1
1999-00 Shaquille O'neal 21.1 ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2000-01 Kobe Bryant 22.2 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2001-02 Kobe Bryant 20.0 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2002-03 Kobe Bryant 23.5 FGA's
2003-04 Kobe Bryant 18.1 FGA's ( NBA FINALS )


sure shaq was the more efficient player. but he wasnt the 1st option


and in a way .... when kobe was the main go to guy. the lakers had more success...

[TrueRob]

A lot of people thought the Lakers would sweep the Pistons. It's crazy that the Lakers were a miracle shot away from being swept themselves.

[Colby Brian]

but he was the reason they lost the series

yeah he shot poorly

but ben wallace dominated the glass, shaq got outrebounded

[KG5MVP]

yeah he shot poorly

but ben wallace dominated the glass, shaq got outrebounded

shaq shot 60% in that series, he was owning ben wallace

[Colby Brian]

A lot of people thought the Lakers would sweep the Pistons. It's crazy that the Lakers were a miracle shot away from being swept themselves.

yeah i know, thats why i think this is the biggest nba upset

if this didnt go in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg its a sweep

[griffmoney1784]

Pistons in a way created the new Kobe/bynum/gasol lakers


:bowdown: to detroit

[TrueRob]

shaq shot 60% in that series, he was owning ben wallace

No one could do anything on offense for the Lakers except Shaq.

[griffmoney1784]

No one could do anything on offense for the Lakers except Shaq.


because larry brown admited after the series that they would let shaq get his and focus on everyone else... ( i.e doubling kobe... locking down the perimeter )

shaq can only score so many points.

the plan worked because of how thin the lakers roster was...

[TrueRob]

I don't see how people underrated Detroit so much. They beat the Pacers without HCA and the Pacers had the best record in the league.

[Mark Madsen]

Lakers leader in FGA's ( AKA #1 OPTION ) from 1996-97 to 2003-04



1996-97 Shaquille O'neal 19.4 FGA's
1997-98 Shaquille O'neal 19.1
1998-99 Shaquille O'neal 18.1
1999-00 Shaquille O'neal 21.1 ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2000-01 Kobe Bryant 22.2 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2001-02 Kobe Bryant 20.0 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2002-03 Kobe Bryant 23.5 FGA's
2003-04 Kobe Bryant 18.1 FGA's ( NBA FINALS )


sure shaq was the more efficient player. but he wasnt the 1st option


and in a way .... when kobe was the main go to guy. the lakers had more success...

YET .. Shaq led the team in wins hares still and was clearly the better player and #1 option through all of their playoff runs and was the one averaging 36/15 on 60% in the finals and setting finals records in blocks and scoring while kobe was struggling to shoot over 40%? :lol

lakers had more success in 04 when kobe had more FGA than shaq for the first time ever in a finals series? lakers had more success in 03 when kobe took over 700 more shots than Shaq int he playoffs? :lol :lol

[griffmoney1784]

I don't see how people underrated Detroit so much. They beat the Pacers without HCA and the Pacers had the best record in the league.

its not because of how low the pistons were rated

its because of how high the lakers were rated

Kobe and shaq alone were enough to win 3 straight

then you throw in malone and payton and they were being talked about as the best team ever put together


but sadly malone got injured, payton stopped playing good, kobe was locked up with double teams, and the pistons let shaq do whatever he wanted while shutting down every role player...

thats the story

[griffmoney1784]

YET .. Shaq led the team in wins hares still and was clearly the better player and #1 option through all of their playoff runs

lakers had more success in 04 when kobe had more FGA than shaq for the first time ever in a finals series? lakers had more success in 03 when kobe took over 700 more shots than Shaq int he playoffs? :lol :lol

theres a difference between #1 option and teams most efficient player


#1 option means ( who gets the most shots )


sorry bro... you lose

[LEFT4DEAD]

the real finals wasnt LA vs pacers/sixers/nets

anyone who watched ball in the early 00's knew the real finals was the WCF and against teams like sanantonio and sacramento

kobe was the mvp of those REAL finals

You dont know what you are talking about. You are like no brain man who thinks that everybody elses are same like him. But guess what, we have brain, and you lover Bryant was not better than Shaq in any of these series before finals, let alone vs Philly or Nets.





#1 option means ( who gets the most shots )


This means, if you are really 1st option and you get most of shots, you should hit most of shots. But if you are not first option, and you get most shots, but make 35-40% of them then you are called CHUCKER and BALLHOGER.

[griffmoney1784]

You dont know what you are talking about. You are like no brain man who thinks that everybody elses are same like him. But guess what, we have brain, and you lover Bryant was not better than Shaq in any of these series before finals, let alone vs Philly or Nets.

:facepalm X1MILLION

[LEFT4DEAD]

:facepalm cmonn, you take me for serious? please dont cause i'm just ignorant stupid biatch who don't know anything about bball, and have no life so I must come on forums and try to act like A MAN. yea I suck
:cheers:

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

how about this....

ben wallace was able to defend shaq 1 on 1.... leaving kobe to be doubled and tripled into bad forced shots since malone was injured and payton was shooting even worse

and after that the team sucked

Yeah if giving up 26.6 PPG on 63.1 FG% and 10.8 RPG in the series is being able to defend Shaq

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lakers leader in FGA's ( AKA #1 OPTION ) from 1996-97 to 2003-04



1996-97 Shaquille O'neal 19.4 FGA's
1997-98 Shaquille O'neal 19.1
1998-99 Shaquille O'neal 18.1
1999-00 Shaquille O'neal 21.1 ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2000-01 Kobe Bryant 22.2 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2001-02 Kobe Bryant 20.0 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2002-03 Kobe Bryant 23.5 FGA's
2003-04 Kobe Bryant 18.1 FGA's ( NBA FINALS )


sure shaq was the more efficient player. but he wasnt the 1st option


and in a way .... when kobe was the main go to guy. the lakers had more success...

:oldlol: This crap doesn't work on me. Does this tell us how many times the ball went into Shaq and he was doubled? No.

I'll trust the coach on who the first option was, as well as my eyes.

[Colby Brian]

shaq shot 60% in that series, he was owning ben wallace

wallace - 13.6 rpg
shaq - 10.8 rpg

plus who cares that shaq shot 60%, do you even watch basketball, look at the shots he takes dunks, layups and 3 foot hook shots, the problem was not offensivly tho
he was outplayed defensivly by far
billups owned payton, and malone was banged up
chemisrty problems
the team was a mess, not all kobes fault
but i give credit to detroit they played much better and deserved the title

[Ruh-Roh]

Damn...griff is getting really good at his trolling. Like a young, undeveloped TheLogo raised by a crack-momma.

[alenleomessi]

biggest finals upset

biggest playoff upset was warriors over mavs 1st round

and btw its funny how kobes the leader whenever the lakers lost in the last 15 years. but never the leader when the lakers won

fact is kobe was the 1st option from 2001 on

look at the FGA's... shaq was the #1 option only from 1996-2000

finals mvps are only for 1 series. kobe was mvp for the important series
wow....

[Mark Madsen]

:oldlol: This crap doesn't work on me. Does this tell us how many times the ball went into Shaq and he was doubled? No.

I'll trust the coach on who the first option was, as well as my eyes.

Win shares per 48 min 2000 playoffs
Shaq 0.283 vs Kobe 0.202

2001 playoffs
Shaq 0.245 vs Kobe 0.196

2002 playoffs
Shaq 0.262 vs Kobe 0.199

Kobe himself admitted to being the #2 man during that 3peat

Kobe's word vs. Kobe homers word and dubious reasoning here :lol

[Colby Brian]

Win shares per 48 min 2000 playoffs
Shaq 0.283 vs Kobe 0.202

2001 playoffs
Shaq 0.245 vs Kobe 0.196

2002 playoffs
Shaq 0.262 vs Kobe 0.199

Kobe himself admitted to being the #2 man during that 3peat

Kobe's word vs. Kobe homers word and dubious reasoning here :lol

no one said kobe was better than shaq during the 3peat

[Mark Madsen]

no one said kobe was better than shaq during the 3peat

griffmoney1784 claiming Kobe was the "#1 option" in 01 and 02 :lol

[Colby Brian]

griffmoney1784 claiming Kobe was the "#1 option" in 01 and 02 :lol

ignore the trollin

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

wallace - 13.6 rpg
shaq - 10.8 rpg

plus who cares that shaq shot 60%, do you even watch basketball, look at the shots he takes dunks, layups and 3 foot hook shots, the problem was not offensivly tho
he was outplayed defensivly by far
billups owned payton, and malone was banged up
chemisrty problems
the team was a mess, not all kobes fault
but i give credit to detroit they played much better and deserved the title
Comparing rebounding is pointless when Shaq owned Wallace in the scoring department and doing it with the 63% shooting which by the way is pretty good for a center even if it's just over a period of 5 games.

[eazyduzzit10]

Hey guys im new to this site, thought I'd drop a comment...Being in NZ not much NBA is shown on our ESPN but all I clearly remember the 2004 NBA Finals and I always say to others that they should have given Shaq more touches. Kobe (ATG IMO BTW) was terrible in that series. However, Shaq was straight up BEASTING Ben Wallace (my fav player @ the time), Kobe shouldve tried to take on more of a facilitator role for that series and go with what was working (Shaq).

[Harison]

'04 Finals was definitely one of the biggests upsets ever, but no mention of '69 Lakers? LA had Wilt, Jerry West and Baylor, and were heavy favorites, even started Finals 2-0, yet managed to lose.

[D-nugz]

Lakers leader in FGA's ( AKA #1 OPTION ) from 1996-97 to 2003-04



1996-97 Shaquille O'neal 19.4 FGA's
1997-98 Shaquille O'neal 19.1
1998-99 Shaquille O'neal 18.1
1999-00 Shaquille O'neal 21.1 ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2000-01 Kobe Bryant 22.2 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2001-02 Kobe Bryant 20.0 FGA's ( NBA CHAMPIONSHIP )
2002-03 Kobe Bryant 23.5 FGA's
2003-04 Kobe Bryant 18.1 FGA's ( NBA FINALS )


sure shaq was the more efficient player. but he wasnt the 1st option


and in a way .... when kobe was the main go to guy. the lakers had more success...




hahahahahah this post made me laugh !!

You're one funny dude !
:applause:

[SYM86]

yea it was, our butt still hurt from that but Karl malone and horace grant was out due to injury. that really killed our team chemistry. (no one was doing the dirty works)

[Heat007]

shaq was having a great series, the sole reason lakers lost is because of kobe, look at his stats in that finals, horrible, 30% shooting

Yeah, and in the following year D-Wade shot over 50% against the Pistons in the playoffs, and would have beat them and won the title if Wade didn't get hurt late in that series.

Then a year later Wade shot 62% against that Pistons defense in that playoff series.. In a year when the Pistons still had the #1 defense in the league and a franchise record 64 wins.

Wade always looked great against that defense and took em to school.

[SYM86]

Yeah, and in the following year D-Wade shot over 50% against the Pistons in the playoffs, and would have beat them and won the title if Wade didn't get hurt late in that series.

Then a year later Wade shot 62% against that Pistons defense in that playoff series.. In a year when the Pistons still had the #1 defense in the league and a franchise record 64 wins.

Wade always looked great against that defense and took em to school.

I thought we're talking about the 04 finals? y you have to bring up wade and his stats? if not that 04 upset wade will never get his RING! you need to thank the Pistons for giving him a chance to ride on shaq's dick.

http://necolebitchie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dwyane-wade-and-shaq.jpg

[whoartthou]

its pretty simple, kobe was the main reason they lost that finals.

Sure, they might have lost if kobe played a more team oriented game, but i highly doubt it would have been in 5. IT would have been a 50-50 had kobe played team game.

But.. KOBE IS KOBE..:roll:

[D-nugz]

its pretty simple, kobe was the main reason they lost that finals.

Sure, they might have lost if kobe played a more team oriented game, but i highly doubt it would have been in 5. IT would have been a 50-50 had kobe played team game.

But.. KOBE IS KOBE..:roll:


But I love kobe, he da bess @ raping

[Heat007]

I thought we're talking about the 04 finals? y you have to bring up wade and his stats? if not that 04 upset wade will never get his RING! you need to thank the Pistons for giving him a chance to ride on shaq's dick

Except it was Kobe who rode on Shaq's dick. Shaq was a 30/15 guy commanding triple teams in his PRIME with Kobe.. Kobe was suckin Shaq hard.

In Miami Shaq was not nearly the same player as he lost two steps. He was a 19/9 player. Shaq was not commanding so many double and triple teams when he was in miami, that's because he WASN'T the same player. Wade is the one who made those Pistons defenses look silly and led that team. Kobe could never do that.

Wade had legendary playoff performances those first 2 seasons with Shaq. And Wade broke series and playoff records.. in JUST his 2nd and 3rd season in the LEAGUE !! We have never seen a player so early in his career dominate on both ends of the floor so early in their career like Wade showed.

While kobe, in his prime, totally stunk against the Pistons.

Over a 4 year span, Kobe shot 40% against that Pistons defense in the regular season, and was under 40% in the playoffs.

Over a 4 year span Wade shot well over 50% against that pistons defense in the regular season, and shot 57% against them in 2 playoff series (one year he was over 50% and the next year at 61%). And Wade averaged more rebounds, assists, steals AND blocks against them.. by a big margin in some of those categories.

Wade has two titles if he didn't get injured when they were up 3 games to 2 to the pistons in 2005. And Kobe couldn't do it with a younger Shaq. Instead, Kobe got embarrassed,

Wade >>> Kobe

Kobe has always sucked against the really good defenses. He's just 41% in the Finals for his career, that's because the East had all the good defenses. He's always looked like crap against the best eastern teams. He's lucky he's in a free wheeling western conference where defense is overlooked in favor of offense as its been a more offensive conference.

Over the last decade the top 5 defenses have been in the east. and over the last decade the 5 worst defenses have been in the west.

What did kobe shoot against the Celtics last year in the playoffs? 42%. What did Wade shoot against the Celtics in last year's playoffs? He shot 57% averaging 34 pts per game.,

That chucker had it easy while the more efficient all around player was still better in a harder conference to play in. And we all know head to head Wade always looked better than Kobe when they face up and guard one another-

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202491

Wade >>> Kobe

[JohnnySic]

I dont think it was an upset at all. Not one bit.

Shaq and Kobe may have been the 2 best players on the floor, bur Shaq had declined a bit from his '01 peak, and Kobe was still in his ballhog stage.

Payton was just about washed up; Malone was old and injured. Fisher a good role player. The rest of the team was trash.

The '04 Pistons were a well-oiled machine; Rip, Billups, Sheed, Big Ben, and Prince were all in their prime/young. Hunter and Okur were good reserves. The Pistons were a flat out better team; the fact that they almost won again the following year would demostrate this.

[#1SportsFan86]

Game 1 shocked me because I didn't see the Pistons taken game 1 they way the did...I would love to see the 03-04 Pistons vs the 07-08 Celtics.

[Anaximandro1]

fact is kobe was the 1st option from 2001 on

look at the FGA's... shaq was the #1 option only from 1996-2000

finals mvps are only for 1 series. kobe was mvp for the important series

Wow :eek:

Revisionist history at its finest.:roll:

2000-2001


Regular Season

PPG Shaq 28.7 (57.2%) Kobe 28.5 (46.4%)
FTA Shaq 13.1 Kobe 8.2

Playoffs

PPG Shaq 30.4 (55.5%) Kobe 29.4 (46.9%)
FTA Shaq 12.5 Kobe 9.3


2001-2002


Regular Season

PPG Shaq 27.2 (57.9%) Kobe 25.2 (46.9%)
FTA Shaq 10.7 Kobe 7.4

Playoffs

PPG Shaq 28.5 (52.9%) Kobe 26.6 (43.4%)
FTA Shaq 10.9 Kobe 7.6

[Harion]

griffmoney needs to be banned for good. the idiocy of this guy is just too painful to bear. not even an ignore option can do it anymore.

[Rake2204]

I can never resist commenting on the 2004 Detroit Pistons NBA Championship. I may have been a little skeptical of the national media before the 2004 finish, but it was these Finals that really pushed me over the edge. At the time I dismissed it as my own bias, but I was still wondering just how so many experts and analysts could have been so quick to write off the Pistons that year.

After the Rasheed Wallace deal, the Pistons closed that regular season going something like 22-5. It was during this stretch they held five consecutive opponents under 70 points (and a 6th scored 71). They were kind of dominant, to be honest. Surely, the low scores could be attributed to a slower pace, but the Pistons were still pounding teams. The Pistons were not an offensive powerhouse, but the idea that they were offensively hapless is a fallacy.

In fact, I even remember ESPN analysts going as far as to critique the manner with which the Pistons won their Eastern Conference Championship. I'm not speaking of their basketball execution either. I mean guys were pointing to the Pistons celebrating their Conference Championship as a sign that they were henceforth completely satisfied and would not be able to muster the will to win a ring. They then showed a clip of Karl Malone not celebrating at all after LA's Western Conference Championship and insinuated that that was in part why the Lakers would steam roll the Pistons in the Finals. "They were all business."

Someone mentioned that Ben Wallace was able to defend Shaquille O'Neal one-one-one in the Finals that year. I think it was more that Detroit "let" Ben guard Shaq one-on-one, not that he necessarily was able to handle him. Shaq kind of went off. He shot a very good percentage throughout the series and was generally unstoppable when he had the ball. He just did not sustain an attack. Whether that was his fault of his team's I suppose is open for debate.

Also, one of those reasons we can't always trust what statistics tell us, I'm not sure it'd be fair to say the Spurs and Pistons were even defensively because they both allowed 84.3 points per game during the 2004 regular season. The Pistons were a great defensive team before the trade deadline. They became an awesome defensive team after. Therefore, I don't feel full season statistics are a legitimate representation of the championship Pistons' prowess.

I love to think that the Pistons/Lakers Finals was the greatest NBA upset. And maybe in terms of how many people counted out the Pistons beforehand that may make that statement true in some respect. However, I maintain the Pistons were better than a lot of people ever presumed they were. Conversely, I believe the aging Lakers were actually worse than a lot of people believed (Karl Malone and Gary Payton in particular).

[Rashard]

There was no way on God's green earth David Stern was going to have a player who was on trial for rape at the time hoisting the Larry O'brien Trophy at the end of the '04 Finals. Just was not going to happen. He had the image of his league to uphold. Hence, the +60 FTA's in favor of the Pistons for the series. The Lakers attempted 111 FT's for the series to the Pistons 171 FTA's. The Pistons connected on 119 FT's to the Lakers 71. +48 points at the line for the Pistons. Game. Set. Match.

[Heat007]

There was no way on God's green earth David Stern was going to have a player who was on trial for rape at the time hoisting the Larry O'brien Trophy at the end of the '04 Finals. Just was not going to happen. He had the image of his league to uphold. Hence, the +60 FTA's in favor of the Pistons for the series. The Lakers attempted 111 FT's for the series to the Pistons 171 FTA's. The Pistons connected on 119 FT's to the Lakers 71. +48 points at the line for the Pistons. Game. Set. Match.

That's what happens when you rely on a player like Kobe instead of Shaq to win you a series against a great defense.

Kobe has looked god awful against the really good defenses throughout his career. Much worse than other star players.

So as soon as they relied on him to beat a good defense. It was Game.Set.Match.

Goodnight.

[Rashard]

That's what happens when you rely on a player like Kobe instead of Shaq to win you a series against a great defense.

Kobe has looked god awful against the really good defenses throughout his career. Much worse than other star players.

So as soon as they relied on him to beat a good defense. It was Game.Set.Match.

Goodnight.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth debate about this because frankly it's a waste of time and effort. You have your opinion and I have mine. You've stated yours and I've stated mine. You wont change my mind and I wont change yours. That's the end of it for me. However, I will say this. It's much easier to play "stifling" defense when you can do so without having to worry about being called for fouls.

[ginobli2311]

not sure.

but it was the worst finals ever by an all time great player ever.

Can't play worse than Kobe. Not only did he just play bad, but he chose to ignore the team and winning in order to prove he could so something he clearly couldn't.

It was the culmination of Kobe's frustration that he just wasn't as good as Shaq and wanted to prove the world the Lakers could win his way. Sadly, 03 and 04 prove they couldn't.

Its a shame. We could have easily and probably should have seen 5 titles in a row....maybe even more.

But Kobe couldn't handle playing the right way. He wanted more glory....instead....he got a runner up trophy.
:cheers:

[ginobli2311]

There was no way on God's green earth David Stern was going to have a player who was on trial for rape at the time hoisting the Larry O'brien Trophy at the end of the '04 Finals. Just was not going to happen. He had the image of his league to uphold. Hence, the +60 FTA's in favor of the Pistons for the series. The Lakers attempted 111 FT's for the series to the Pistons 171 FTA's. The Pistons connected on 119 FT's to the Lakers 71. +48 points at the line for the Pistons. Game. Set. Match.

Really?

What a revisionist history approach. Maybe the Lakers shot less free throws because Kobe froze out Shaq and Kobe jacked up terrible jumper after terrible jumper.

Wow. The stans are blaming the refs for 04 now? Just when you think their assertions can't get worse they drop this one on you.

You would then admit that the 02 kings series was rigged right?
:facepalm

[az00m]

impossible

malone and payton were finished

shaq was asking for 30mill/season

they would have been 10 mill over the cap with just 2 players.

and people forget that shaq weighd 350 pounds before getting in shape for miami...

he would have still been his same old fat POS self with no motivation from 05 - 07

Thats why shaq won one with an equally better pg when he left the lakers.

You're stupid

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Yeah I guess, considering how favored the Lakers were, they were the overwhelming favorites!

[ShaqAttack3234]

Spurs had a better team defense rating than Detroit. But, I guess Detroit had the better defenders to contain Kobe.

Personally, I think that Detroit was better defensively after they traded for Sheed.


Yeah, and in the following year D-Wade shot over 50% against the Pistons in the playoffs, and would have beat them and won the title if Wade didn't get hurt late in that series.

Then a year later Wade shot 62% against that Pistons defense in that playoff series.. In a year when the Pistons still had the #1 defense in the league and a franchise record 64 wins.

Wade always looked great against that defense and took em to school.

Detroit wasn't quite as good defensively as they were in the second half of the 2004 season and the playoffs with Sheed when they were the best defensive team I've ever seen. But the 2005 and 2006 Piston team's defenses were actually top 3 and top 5, respectively.


but he was the reason they lost the series

No he wasn't. Look at the disparity between their point guards and to a lesser extent, their power forwards. He hurt the team that series, but no way was he the sole reason.

[Mr. Jabbar]

it was

[Ne 1]

Yeah I guess, considering how favored the Lakers were, they were the overwhelming favorites!

Actually looking back, I'm surprised that the '04 team even got to the Finals. Shaq was out of shape and often injured that year, Karl Malone was 40 years old, Payton was also aging and didn't buy into Phil's system, Kobe who was going through the trial, flying back and forth, sometimes in the same day as a game. Not to mention they had a really weak bench. The Kobe-Shaq feud was still going on and was more heated than ever. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging, Kobe accused Malone of hitting on his wife. All while that was a transitioning year for the team.

Talk about distractions. If anyone remembers that Finals, Chauncey absolutely destroyed Payton, Malone got injured in the WCF and then Detroit's defense basically doubled and tripled Kobe whenever he had the ball forcing someone else to beat them. Yeah the Lakers were talented, but even as a Laker fan, I have to say that team had horrible chemistry. Kobe and Shaq carried them, but man, no team that I can remember had that many problems going on.

[SYM86]

Talk about distractions. If anyone remembers that Finals, Chauncey absolutely destroyed Payton, Malone got injured in the WCF and then Detroit's defense basically doubled and tripled Kobe whenever he had the ball forcing someone else to beat them. Yeah the Lakers were talented, but even as a Laker fan, I have to say that team had horrible chemistry. Kobe and Shaq carried them, but man, no team that I can remember had that many problems going on.

:applause: I really think even horace grant will make a slightly difference for that series. Pistons' wallaces just totally killed us.

[Scholar]

Honestly, the 2004 Finals were the first NBA Finals that I watched all the way through. In the past, I would catch a few games, but not every single one. In this one, I watched all 5. I was definitely disappointed with the outcome, though it was expected. Looking at that Lakers team, Shaq & Kobe already making their feud public, Payton not being the same dude he was in the '90s, a young Billups dominating every Lakers' PG without a problem, etc.
I'm not surprised that the Pistons actually destroyed the Lakers.

[Nick Young]

mavs vs warriors 2007

[Maniak]

losing to the pistons actually helped kobes all time status

And as a "lakers" fan(you aren't) thats all that matters.

[Ikill]

mavs vs warriors 2007
I don't really consider that an upset it was obvious to me that Warriors were going to beat the Mavs but whatever.

[Nick Young]

I don't really consider that an upset it was obvious to me that Warriors were going to beat the Mavs but whatever.
everyone who rewrites history says that but the fact they knew it would happen but the fact remains that a 67 win team losing to an 8 seed in the first round is the biggest upset in NBA history

[Ikill]

everyone who rewrites history says that but the fact they knew it would happen but the fact remains that a 67 win team losing to an 8 seed in the first round is the biggest upset in NBA history
I know a lot of people say i knew that was going to happen but Warriors were a bad match for Dallas it was easy when you regular season games. Warriors were also much better than there record, it was a bit surprising the Warriors won but that Mavs team was not winning they could try it again and still lose.

[JustinJDW]

When you're averaging 30ppg/15rpg/3bpg on freaking 55% shooting throughout the Playoffs of a damn 3-peat, I don't care how many shots your #2 Guard is chucking, you're the leader of that team.

[Bigsmoke]

Billups was so awesome :rockon:

[Bigsmoke]

IMO. the biggest upset was when the Nuggets beat the Sonics back in 1994

[D.J.]

Not the biggest, but top five easily. Others that were more of an upset IMO were Warriors/Mavs from '07, Bullets/Sonics from '78, and Nuggets/Sonics from '94.

[stickfigure87]

anybody who thinks that kobe wasn't a big part to this upset is delisuonal. sure, he wasn't the only problem, but watching that series, it was evident that shaq was destroying wallace on the offensive end, and wasn't getting fed enough. kobe was double and tripled team the entire series and didn't adjust.

other problems were obviously payton getting killed, malone being injured, and the lakers bench being absent.

and this is coming from a major kobe fan who supported the team siding with him instead of shaq after the fallout of 04.

[bl2k8]

Losing to Det set up LA for a possible 3 peat, and four straight finals trips, I'm happy with how things worked out

[Ne 1]

I was definitely disappointed with the outcome, though it was expected. Looking at that Lakers team, Shaq & Kobe already making their feud public

Yeah that year was a disappointment. I was pissed, but not mainly because we lost the Finals, but because of Kobe and Shaq acting like immature crybabies. Especially Shaq though. I mean who publicly calls out their teammate, says the Lakers are "my team" and keeps referring to their teammate as a side-kick all the time? Of course Kobe was gonna be pissed.

[Soundwave]

Yeah that year was a disappointment. I was pissed, but not mainly because we lost the Finals, but because of Kobe and Shaq acting like immature crybabies. Especially Shaq though. I mean who publicly calls out their teammate, says the Lakers are "my team" and keeps referring to their teammate as a side-kick all the time? Of course Kobe was gonna be pissed.

:oldlol:

Gotta love Shaq.