Shaq vs Kobe

[Nick Young]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

[DonCorleone]

Shaquille Rashuan O'neal is better.

/thread

[aj242]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this
:facepalm

[MayCeltics]

:facepalm

[GiveItToBurrito]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

Shaq carried Kobe to those rings because he was in his prime and Kobe hadn't peaked. Anyone who's watched prime Shaq knows that he was the most unstoppable monster in the league for like six or eight years. And there's no shame in being the second banana to a top five center in his prime, especially when it was when you were like 21 or 22.

EDIT Also, I hate the idea of one superstar "carrying" another star to a title. Kobe wouldn't have won without Shaq, but Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe. Shaq probably could have won with a slightly worse second banana than Kobe, but it's not like Kobe was just some role player on that team. Shaq carried guys like Horry and Fisher to titles, Kobe was the second most important part of those teams. It's almost like saying Garnett carried Pierce to a title, it's only something someone intentionally looking to push an agenda or say something provocative would say. EDIT

[Optimus Prime]

Nobody carried anybody to any rings. Kobe and Shaq were both very, very good during the Lakers three-peat, with Kobe being the possible "sidekick" for their first championship only. Shaq was the "sidekick" to D-Whistle for Miami's ring, but he was still at the end of his prime. No carrying going on in any case.

People just say that because they want to hate on Kobe or Shaq. Objective fans can see that both afro-Kobe and prime-Shaq were beasts, and if their egos could have been subdued, who knows how many championships that Lakers team could have won? :pimp:

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kobe_bryant_shaquille_oneal.jpg

[Stillatitdamnit]

:sleeping :rolleyes:

[KingLeBronJames]

It's true. Kobe carried Shaq in the Playoffs up until the Finals. Kobe was dominant in the Playoffs but not in the Finals.

[KB2clutch]

they carried equal weight on during the threepeat. Kobe was playoffs mvp but shaq had bigger mismatches in the finals which is why he won the finals mvp. But both are the two most dominant players to play in the nba

[G-Funk]

Nobody carried anyone...They did it together...ppl just say "he carried" cause they r jealous fans, and are just hating.

[G-Funk]

It's true. Kobe carried Shaq in the Playoffs up until the Finals. Kobe was dominant in the Playoffs but not in the Finals.

IMO the championships where won in the West...Lakers used their best mismatched in the Finals(Shaq)... The Kings, Spurs, Portland>>>anything coming out East.

[Nick Young]

Nobody carried anyone...They did together...ppl just say "he carried" cause they r jealous fans, and are just hating.
exactly.

[Colby Brian]

rite now i think shaq is higher on the all time list, but kobe still has a chance to pass him tho, kobe has a chance to win 1 or 2 more rings, hes only 32 years old

[griffmoney1784]

1. the mvp is the guy who has to carry the team late in games

- shaq was on the bench for allot of the endings in the playoffs because of hackashaq
- when have you ever seen shaq hit a game winner
- the leader in fga's ( aka #1 option ) was kobe for 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 )
- kobe had the better wcf's average in 2001 and 2002 and the better overall playoffs in 2001


2. shaq has never done anything as lead dog without an elite kobe

- no mvps
- no championships
- no finals mvps

he averaged 25+ppg/10+reb ( or close to ) from 1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999,2005 as lead dog

and still never got it done

3. kobe without shaq as lead dog in just 6 years has

- 1 mvp
- 3 nba finals
- 2 nba championships ( back to back )
- 2 finals mvps


4. kobe is the better defender. in a near 20 year career shaq has NEVER made 1st team all defense

kobe has made it 8 times. ( and atleast 6 of them are undisputable )


5. Kobe was never dumped by a team or made enimys with a team

shaq has been dumped or made enimys with

- orlando
- los angeles
- miami
- phoenix
- cleveland


6. kobe only made enimys with one guy in his career while playing with them.

- shaq

shaq has made enimys with a guy from every team hes played on

- penny
- kobe
- wade
- nash
- lebron


7. kobe never let himself gain 100 pounds of fat, kobe never told his team he wouldnt guard the house if he wasnt fed, kobe never held the owner at gun point for 30 million dollars.

and finally

8. kobe won a championship without a top 250 all time player in pau gasol.

shaq has never won as lead dog without a second option in the top 10 all time.

[Laker19]

Obviously Shaq was better and played a big role, but Kobe was a legit second option puting up number one option numbers. Its a team game, Kobe is apart of the team just like Shaq was. There's so many great second and third options that won multiple rings who weren't nearly as good as the first option yet their rings don't get an asterisk.

[Colby Brian]

2000-02 playoff stats

shaq
30.7 15.4 3.1
30.4 15.4 3.2
28.5 12.6 2.8

kobe
21.1 4.5 4.4
29.4 7.3 6.1
26.6 5.8 4.6

kobe was young during that 3peat, but he held his own
kobe couldnt win those without shaq, but shaq couldnt win those without kobe, except 2000, kobe was only 21 and shaq had his best year

[Nick Young]

1. the mvp is the guy who has to carry the team late in games

- shaq was on the bench for allot of the endings in the playoffs because of hackashaq
- when have you ever seen shaq hit a game winner
- the leader in fga's ( aka #1 option ) was kobe for 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 )
- kobe had the better wcf's average in 2001 and 2002 and the better overall playoffs in 2001


2. shaq has never done anything as lead dog without an elite kobe

- no mvps
- no championships
- no finals mvps

he averaged 25+ppg/10+reb ( or close to ) from 1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999,2005 as lead dog

and still never got it done

3. kobe without shaq as lead dog in just 6 years has

- 1 mvp
- 3 nba finals
- 2 nba championships ( back to back )
- 2 finals mvps


4. kobe is the better defender. in a near 20 year career shaq has NEVER made 1st team all defense

kobe has made it 8 times. ( and atleast 6 of them are undisputable )


5. Kobe was never dumped by a team or made enimys with a team

shaq has been dumped or made enimys with

- orlando
- los angeles
- miami
- phoenix
- cleveland


6. kobe only made enimys with one guy in his career while playing with them.

- shaq

shaq has made enimys with a guy from every team hes played on

- penny
- kobe
- wade
- nash
- lebron


7. kobe never let himself gain 100 pounds of fat, kobe never told his team he wouldnt guard the house if he wasnt fed, kobe never held the owner at gun point for 30 million dollars.

and finally

8. kobe won a championship without a top 250 all time player in pau gasol.

shaq has never won as lead dog without a second option in the top 10 all time.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[guy]

:roll: gasol not being a top 250 all time player. You trolls will say freaking anything.

[ShaqAttack3234]

they carried equal weight on during the threepeat. Kobe was playoffs mvp but shaq had bigger mismatches in the finals which is why he won the finals mvp. But both are the two most dominant players to play in the nba

No he wasn't. He was the MVP of 2 series during the entire 3peat, the 2001 series vs the Spurs and the 2002 series vs the Spurs.

And for everyone who doesn't feel like wasting time, just ignore Griffmoney, the guy has no idea what he's talking about.

[Replay32]

Shaq was getting a lot of attention back then. Shaq would force double and triple teams quite often. This opened things up for all the perimeter players on the lakers, including kobe. A prime shaq was unstoppable down low and teams had to resort to fouling him hard or the hack a shaq tactic.

A prime shaq drew more attention from opposing defenses than a prime kobe. Heck even now, kobe doesn't get doubled as often as a prime shaq. Kobe is still playing with the best front line in the league. Gasol and odom are in their prime also. Then you ad Bynum. They aren't scrubs by any stretch.

People tend to forget this.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Shaq took on DPOY Dikembe Mutumbo. That alone trumps Kobe facing Eric Snow (after AI torched him), Reggie Miller, and Jason Kidd in the NBA Finals.

Meanwhile while the Spurs were arguably better than the teams that came out of the eastern conference, Shaq was taking on Duncan and Robinson, while Kobe was clearly better than Antonio McDaniels or anybody else who guarded him

[jlauber]

This has been argued a hundred times here. I doubt that EITHER Shaq or Kobe would have won a ring without each other from '00-'02. Having said that, though, LA would have fared better with just Shaq, than just Kobe in those years.

As for the last two years, ...the Lakers would NOT have won a ring without Kobe. Posters continue to rip his play in the Finals, but he was brilliant in the previous rounds. And, even in the Finals, he was still their best player, despite some poor shooting games. Hell, I consider his game seven last year as a much better game than most, simply because he WILLED his team to a win. And, while he shot poorly, the rest of teammates didn't even want the ball. And his defense and rebounding (15 rebounds!) were exceptional, as well.

[04mzwach]

exactly.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

:facepalm

[Micku]

Well:

1. Shaq was their engine in the 90s and the Shaq/Kobe era. It wasn't until the Kobe in 03 that Kobe got more of a green light of being the man of the team, but Shaq was their main option during their years together.

Bottomline: Shaq was the top dog. Kobe was great though.

2. Kobe and Shaq both got those 3 rings. But the first 3 rings were different. Before Phil Jackson Lakers, the Lakers were all talent yet no direction. They all had egos and attitudes. On the Magic, well, they couldn't get over the hump. Their offense ran through Shaq.

3. To people who said that Shaq needed a top 10 player, there is something wrong that logic. What about Kareem and Magic/Oscar? What about Dr. J and Moses Malone? Russell/Cousy? Wilt/West? Criticize them too, they were all high tier players, some of them were consider the best of all time in their era. But nobody considers that a knock on their legacy and how good they were as players.

[amfirst]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

Shaq and Kobe carried that team. No one did it individually. As I recall Shaq started the game aggresive and Kobe had to close the game. Shaq can't finish games and was on the bench a lot so Kobe took over and Kobe needed Shaq for early offense.

[HighFlyer23]

Shaq the most dominant C of all time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kobe and his whole family

[crisoner]

Shaq the most dominant C of all time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kobe and his whole family

You sound just as bad as Kobe stans but on the different side of the spectrum.
There is a guy named Wilt who use to play Center look him up.

Career wise at the point you got to say Kobe. For two simple reasons.

1. He has one more ring then Shaq.

2. He is still a Laker.


You guys need to understand that between these guys what matters is the ring. And it hurts...hurts hurts hurts Shaq's ego that Buss kept Kobe and made Shaq bounce. Now you want to break it down to intricate details..

Who was the more dominant player in their prime...

Shaq

Who has had the better career so far...

Kobe

But bottom line this duo from 99 to 2002 dominated period. They ruled over a STRONG Western Conference...the Spurs, The Blazers, The Kings etc. all great teams that could of won it all (Spurs did).

I think at the end of the day when we look back at this era people will point out how great this duo was and how much greater they could of been if they got along. I blame the break up on both...but as a Laker fan now I wouldn't change anything because that break lead to the Laker team we have today IMO even better then the Kobe Shaq era.

[Rose]

Pau is a top 125 player of all time.

[HighFlyer23]

You sound just as bad as Kobe stans but on the different side of the spectrum.
There is a guy named Wilt who use to play Center look him up.

Career wise at the point you got to say Kobe. For two simple reasons.

1. He has one more ring then Shaq.

2. He is still a Laker.


You guys need to understand that between these guys what matters is the ring. And it hurts...hurts hurts hurts Shaq's ego that Buss kept Kobe and made Shaq bounce. Now you want to break it down to intricate details..

Who was the more dominant player in their prime...

Shaq

Who has had the better career so far...

Kobe

But bottom line this duo from 99 to 2002 dominated period. They ruled over a STRONG Western Conference...the Spurs, The Blazers, The Kings etc. all great teams that could of won it all (Spurs did).

I think at the end of the day when we look back at this era people will point out how great this duo was and how much greater they could of been if they got along. I blame the break up on both...but as a Laker fan now I wouldn't change anything because that break lead to the Laker team we have today IMO even better then the Kobe Shaq era.

Oh yeah Wilt, another guy better than Kobe

[jlauber]

Oh yeah Wilt, another guy better than Kobe

Ok, let's see your list of the all-time players that you would rank over Kobe. I have him at anywhere from 8th to 10th. In other words, not too many.

[T-bomb 25]

Shaq was better,his prime may have been more dominant than any player in NBA history,no shame for Kobe their...

[Tha Catalyst]

Jesus did I just read that Gasol is not a top 250 player ever? I would struggle to mention over 100 better than him.

[whoartthou]

Pau is a top 125 player of all time.

yep, i can see him easily being top 80 of all time when all is said and done.

[griffmoney1784]

Jesus did I just read that Gasol is not a top 250 player ever? I would struggle to mention over 100 better than him.


you dont think theres 250 players better than this all time

Pau Gasol

10 years
0 MVP
0 FMVP
0 ASMVP
0 1st team all nba
0 2nd team all nba
2 3rd team all nba
0 1st team all defense
0 2nd team all defense
0 starting allstar
4 reserve allstar

career 18ppg, 9reb, 3ast ( will drop when his career winds down )
0-12 playoff record as lead dog
2 championships as 2nd player on team ( -12ppg to team leader playoff average )

please dont disrespect this league son

[whoartthou]

you dont think theres 250 players better than this all time

Pau Gasol

10 years
0 MVP
0 FMVP
0 ASMVP
0 1st team all nba
0 2nd team all nba
2 3rd team all nba
0 1st team all defense
0 2nd team all defense
0 starting allstar
4 reserve allstar

career 18ppg, 9reb, 3ast ( will drop when his career winds down )
0-12 playoff record as lead dog
2 championships as 2nd player on team ( -12ppg to team leader playoff average )

please dont disrespect this league son

kobe stans will do anything to boost Kobe up,

[griffmoney1784]

kobe stans will do anything to boost Kobe up,

am i reaching by saying there are 250 players in nba history with better careers than gasol?


yea im doing it to boost kobe

but its not just anything im throwing at the wall to see if it sticks

i could legitimately post 250 players with better careers than that

[whoartthou]

am i reaching by saying there are 250 players in nba history with better careers than gasol?


yea im doing it to boost kobe

but its not just anything im throwing at the wall to see if it sticks

i could legitimately post 250 players with better careers than that

well, we all know you got time. Lets see it buddy.

[williams012]

1. the mvp is the guy who has to carry the team late in games

- shaq was on the bench for allot of the endings in the playoffs because of hackashaq
- when have you ever seen shaq hit a game winner
- the leader in fga's ( aka #1 option ) was kobe for 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 )
- kobe had the better wcf's average in 2001 and 2002 and the better overall playoffs in 2001


2. shaq has never done anything as lead dog without an elite kobe

- no mvps
- no championships
- no finals mvps

he averaged 25+ppg/10+reb ( or close to ) from 1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999,2005 as lead dog

and still never got it done

3. kobe without shaq as lead dog in just 6 years has

- 1 mvp
- 3 nba finals
- 2 nba championships ( back to back )
- 2 finals mvps


4. kobe is the better defender. in a near 20 year career shaq has NEVER made 1st team all defense

kobe has made it 8 times. ( and atleast 6 of them are undisputable )


5. Kobe was never dumped by a team or made [B]enimys with a team

shaq has been dumped or made enimys with

- orlando
- los angeles
- miami
- phoenix
- cleveland


6. kobe only made enimyswith one guy in his career while playing with them.

- shaq

shaq has made enimys with a guy from every team hes played on

- penny
- kobe
- wade
- nash
- lebron


7. kobe never let himself gain 100 pounds of fat, kobe never told his team he wouldnt guard the house if he wasnt fed, kobe never held the owner at gun point for 30 million dollars.

and finally

8. kobe won a championship without a top 250 all time player in pau gasol.

shaq has never won as lead dog without a second option in the top 10 all time.


seriously, learn to spell.

this is one of the worst things i've read.

what does making enemies have to do with anything when comparing players?

what does weight have to do with it?

i repeat, this is one of the worst things i've ever read on this site.

[hkfosho]

obviously shaq, he carried kobe to 3 titles

[ieballer3]

No he wasn't. He was the MVP of 2 series during the entire 3peat, the 2001 series vs the Spurs and the 2002 series vs the Spurs.

And for everyone who doesn't feel like wasting time, just ignore Griffmoney, the guy has no idea what he's talking about.


actually mr. shaqattaq33, kobe has an argument for two portland series (00 and 01) and the sacramento series in 01.

in the sacamento series, both dominated, but kobe closed out the kings and dominated the last two games on the road in crazy sacramento. statswise, both awesome:

shaq - 33.25ppg, 17.25rpg, 2.25ast
kobe - 35ppg, 9reb, 4.25ast

but i would give the nod to kobe for closing out the series on the road while averaging 42, 11.5, 3.5.


kobe also has a good argument for the 01 portland series:

shaq - 27ppg, 15.6 reb, 2.6ast
kobe - 25ppg, 4.3reb, 7.6ast

very close, except for the fact that both shot the same percentage, 48%. which for a center/big man, is very poor and for a sg, very good. this one is closer, but very debatable.

as for the previous year's portland series. kobe was mvp in the two wins in portland and as we all know led the comeback in game 7 while shaq attempted only 9 fgs. this one is a bit harder to argue, but just on game seven heroics alone, he deserves consideration.

please dissect...

[Nick Young]

great to see people are finally recognizing that it was kobe who carried shaq to rings.

Shaq carried lakers to regular season wins then in the playoffs Kobe would carry the whole team himself.

[LEFT4DEAD]

great to see people are finally recognizing that it was kobe who carried shaq to rings.

Shaq carried lakers to regular season wins then in the playoffs Kobe would carry the whole team himself.
:cheers: yeah keep it up buddy.
where are the mods

[indiefan24]

Kobe would carry the whole team himself.

lol...clown

[Jimmy2k8]

:oldlol: @ Kobe carrying Shaq through the playoffs and the finals.

Kobe was the second option to Shaq during the 3-peat title run, nothing more, nothing less.

[nbacardDOTnet]

SHAQ VS KB

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/0%20Players/Shaquille%20Oneal/VS/shaqkb.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/0%20Players/Shaquille%20Oneal/VS/shaqvskb1.gif

[Heat007]

Kobe's NBA Finals Stats vs Shaq's NBA Finals Stats

1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Shaquille O'Neal: 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe Bryant: 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2000-2001 vs Philadelphia 76ers
Shaquille O'Neal: 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe Bryant: 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2001-2002 vs New Jersey Nets
Shaquille O'Neal: 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe Bryant: 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2003-2004 vs Detroit Pistons
Shaquille O'Neal: 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe Bryant: 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG


Kobe is a career 40% in the Finals. Carried by Shaq in the first 3, and carried by the best front court in basketball later (and a lucky perkins injury or the celtics easily win last year)

[Calabis]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/calabis/1217544502722.gif

[guy]

i could legitimately post 250 players with better careers than that

Go ahead. Its hard enough just to name 250 players. You act like the NBA has been around for like 200 years. I guarantee your list will look very ridicuous.

[guy]

[SIZE="3"]
career 18ppg, 9reb, 3ast ( will drop when his career winds down )
[/B]

LOL. There's only 14 other players in NBA history that have at least those averages.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq and Kobe carried that team. No one did it individually. As I recall Shaq started the game aggresive and Kobe had to close the game. Shaq can't finish games and was on the bench a lot so Kobe took over and Kobe needed Shaq for early offense.

Shaq really wasn't on the bench in the final 2 minutes of close playoff games. The only situations that he was for the most part were when the Lakers had a lead and were guarding against a 3 or they had a lead and the other team had no choice but to foul. For the most part, Phil would keep him in with the hack-a-Shaq strategy, unless he really struggled, but he'd usually put him back in at the 2 minute mark even in those situations.

Shaq had plenty of big 4th quarters in the playoffs. He averaged 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarter during the 2000 finals.


actually mr. shaqattaq33, kobe has an argument for two portland series (00 and 01) and the sacramento series in 01.

in the sacamento series, both dominated, but kobe closed out the kings and dominated the last two games on the road in crazy sacramento. statswise, both awesome:

shaq - 33.25ppg, 17.25rpg, 2.25ast
kobe - 35ppg, 9reb, 4.25ast

but i would give the nod to kobe for closing out the series on the road while averaging 42, 11.5, 3.5.

If someone wants to call them co-MVPs in that 2001 series, I have no problem with that, but no way would Kobe deserve MVP over Shaq that series. Shaq's final numbers were better, he shot 60% for the series and averaged 3.3 blocks.

He set the tone for the series with 44/21/4/7 in game 1 and 43/20/2/3 in game 2. I've heard that's the only time in NBA history that a player has had back to back 40/20 games in the playoffs.

Shaq was the MVP of that series, IMO or at least, co-MVP. Kobe's biggest game came with a 3-0 lead when the series was already pretty much over.


kobe also has a good argument for the 01 portland series:

shaq - 27ppg, 15.6 reb, 2.6ast
kobe - 25ppg, 4.3reb, 7.6ast

very close, except for the fact that both shot the same percentage, 48%. which for a center/big man, is very poor and for a sg, very good. this one is closer, but very debatable.

Not really if you watch the series.


as for the previous year's portland series. kobe was mvp in the two wins in portland and as we all know led the comeback in game 7 while shaq attempted only 9 fgs. this one is a bit harder to argue, but just on game seven heroics alone, he deserves consideration.

please dissect...

Shaq was huge in the 4th quarter of that game 7, he had 9 points on 3/3 from the field and 3/4 from the line plus some key defensive plays.

Kobe had the better overall game 7, but for the series, they weren't close. The amount of double and triple teams Shaq drew was ridiculous and his final numbers(26/12/4/2) were definitely superior to Kobe's.

[kaiiu]

Shaq was easily better not saying nobody got carried doe

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe was the more skilled player who carried the Lakers in the 4th quarters....

By 2001 Kobe was the best allaround player in the NBA.

Shaq vs Kobe?...Kobe all day everyday twice on sundays.

[Nick Young]

SHAQ VS KB

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/0%20Players/Shaquille%20Oneal/VS/shaqvskb1.gif
Kobe asserting his dominance once again, swiping the ball right out of Snaq's hands.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Nick Young]

Kobe was the more skilled player who carried the Lakers in the 4th quarters....

By 2001 Kobe was the best allaround player in the NBA.

Shaq vs Kobe?...Kobe all day everyday twice on sundays.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
QFT

[winwin]

http://nballin.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/pau-gasol-kobe-bryant-there-can-only-be-one.jpg

[MaxFly]

2000-02 playoff stats

shaq
30.7 15.4 3.1
30.4 15.4 3.2
28.5 12.6 2.8

kobe
21.1 4.5 4.4
29.4 7.3 6.1
26.6 5.8 4.6

kobe was young during that 3peat, but he held his own
kobe couldnt win those without shaq, but shaq couldnt win those without kobe, except 2000, kobe was only 21 and shaq had his best year

Not sure the Lakers would have won it in 2000 without Bryant. Bryant really lead the Lakers in that game 7 win over Portland in the WCF. All things being equal, Shaq would have needed someone to step up in that game.

[MaxFly]

Kobe was the more skilled player who carried the Lakers in the 4th quarters....

By 2001 Kobe was the best allaround player in the NBA.

Shaq vs Kobe?...Kobe all day everyday twice on sundays.

Don't get carried away. Shaq was a beast, however no one player can do it by themselves.

[O BaByShaQ]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

moron :facepalm

Shaq haters are so weak. He led the lakers to those 3 rings. No shit he didnt win them by himself but he was the MVP by a long shot. I dont give a *** that kobe won one ring and then was there while pau got him another. He isnt winning another this year so open your eyes. Kobe fuked up the Lakers and had shaq shipped because he knew he was riding *****.

[Nick Young]

moron :facepalm

Shaq haters are so weak. He led the lakers to those 3 rings. No shit he didnt win them by himself but he was the MVP by a long shot. I dont give a *** that kobe won one ring and then was there while pau got him another. He isnt winning another this year so open your eyes. Kobe fuked up the Lakers and had shaq shipped because he knew he was riding *****.
Yeah Kobe f*cked up the Lakers by forcing Shaq out, he only lead us to 3 finals appearances and 2 more titles after he apparently 'f*cked up the Lakers' while Shaq only has one title and one finals appearance which he played horribly in

[AlphaWolf24]

moron :facepalm

Shaq haters are so weak. He led the lakers to those 3 rings. No shit he didnt win them by himself but he was the MVP by a long shot. I dont give a *** that kobe won one ring and then was there while pau got him another. He isnt winning another this year so open your eyes. Kobe fuked up the Lakers and had shaq shipped because he knew he was riding *****.


not really ..Kobe was the main weapon in closing out teams in the 4th...Shaq was prone to get into foul trouble and his skillset did'nt allow him to be the first option in the 4th quarter.

01 - 02 playoff's - Kobe was Starting Allstar , All NBA First team and All defensive 2nd team.....

Playoff's Shaq - 29PPG 13 reb 3ast.....Kobe 27PPG 6reb 5ast....

...4th quarters for the 01 - 02 playoff's combined...Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs ... Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs


again..Kobe was the main weapon in the 4th quarters...the most important pat of the game....and the NBA's best player since 2001

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2173000/AlphaWolf-2173769_596_800.jpg



there was a reason Kobe has been to 3 straight Finals.

[MaxFly]

Kobe's NBA Finals Stats vs Shaq's NBA Finals Stats

1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Shaquille O'Neal: 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe Bryant: 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2000-2001 vs Philadelphia 76ers
Shaquille O'Neal: 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe Bryant: 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2001-2002 vs New Jersey Nets
Shaquille O'Neal: 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe Bryant: 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2003-2004 vs Detroit Pistons
Shaquille O'Neal: 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe Bryant: 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG


Kobe is a career 40% in the Finals. Carried by Shaq in the first 3, and carried by the best front court in basketball later (and a lucky perkins injury or the celtics easily win last year)

The NBA today requires that you win 4 series in order to win an NBA championship. As a result, a championship is the sum total of an entire post season run, not one series. No one who is a serious, unbiased NBA fan would sign onto the notion that Bryant was "carried" during the Lakers' 3 championships, especially the last two... and especially 2001. It's evident that any argument to the contrary results from either a measure of ignorance or bias.

And let's be clear, it's not that people aren't allowed to have or express their opinions, but foolish or incorrect assertions will be scrutinized.

[O BaByShaQ]

Yeah Kobe f*cked up the Lakers by forcing Shaq out, he only lead us to 3 finals appearances and 2 more titles after he apparently 'f*cked up the Lakers' while Shaq only has one title and one finals appearance which he played horribly in

shaqs latest ring was givin in the exact same situation as kobes last ring. Dwade got shaq his and pau won kobe his last without a doubt. I was refering how kobe knew he was not top dog so he acted like a ***** to grab leadership of the team.

And to alpha wolf- Shaq won them games in the first 3 quarters. No need for a fourth in most situations.

[Bandito]

I don't think Shaq carried anyone to the finals, but I cannot say Kobe did either. One without the other wouldn't win sh1t at that time. I even think Kobe even said that one time when a news reporter asked him. Is like saying MJ carried Pippen to their 6 cchips. BOth of them did their thing in order to win it all.

[MaxFly]

shaqs latest ring was givin in the exact same situation as kobes last ring. Dwade got shaq his and pau won kobe his last without a doubt. I was refering how kobe knew he was not top dog so he acted like a ***** to grab leadership of the team.


:oldlol:

Really, through... :facepalm

[Bandito]

shaqs latest ring was givin in the exact same situation as kobes last ring. Dwade got shaq his and pau won kobe his last without a doubt. I was refering how kobe knew he was not top dog so he acted like a ***** to grab leadership of the team.

And to alpha wolf- Shaq won them games in the first 3 quarters. No need for a fourth in most situations.
You are full of fail honestly.:facepalm

[crisoner]

Ok, let's see your list of the all-time players that you would rank over Kobe. I have him at anywhere from 8th to 10th. In other words, not too many.

Kid is a hating troll no need to reason with him.

[Simple Jack]

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=5567587&postcount=155


Please read.

[chazzy]

Funny watching people revise history over something that happened only 10 years ago.. most people here actually watched them play. It was clear that 1) Shaq was the more important player and 2) Kobe was NOT carried by any means

[Heat007]

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=5567587&postcount=155


Please read.

TRUTH

[bl2k8]

So what happens if Kobe joins Shaq and Mike as the only players to win 3 straight FMVP's

[Bandito]

Funny watching people revise history over something that happened only 10 years ago.. most people here actually watched them play. It was clear that 1) Shaq was the more important player and 2) Kobe was NOT carried by any means
Quoted for truth. Anyone who thinks differently are the same ones that think that MJ carried Pippen to their 6 cchips.:lol

[ginobli2311]

Funny watching people revise history over something that happened only 10 years ago.. most people here actually watched them play. It was clear that 1) Shaq was the more important player and 2) Kobe was NOT carried by any means


This.

[Colby Brian]

So what happens if Kobe joins Shaq and Mike as the only players to win 3 straight FMVP's

haters gonna be mad :mad:

[Nick Young]

haters gonna be mad :mad:
What if Kobe has a 4 peat, gets 7 rings and 4 finals MVPs in a row:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

OMG you got this mamba its gonna happen ISH gonna explode when Kobe wins his 7th ring in 2012

[ginobli2311]

So what happens if Kobe joins Shaq and Mike as the only players to win 3 straight FMVP's

he should be praised and its a great accomplishment.

it should also be put into proper context. comparing the level of play of kobe in the finals the last 2 years to either shaq or jordan is laughable.

winning finals mvp does not mean the same thing for kobe as it did for most of jordan's or shaq's.

as long as they are put into proper context everyone will be cool with it. i hope the lakers win and kobe wins another finals mvp....i just hope he wins it while having a great series. not his usual mediocre series.

[Colby Brian]

Funny watching people revise history over something that happened only 10 years ago.. most people here actually watched them play. It was clear that 1) Shaq was the more important player and 2) Kobe was NOT carried by any means

:applause:
shaq was better, but no one carried each other, haters just mad kobe got rings and their boyfriend is ringless

[ginobli2311]

:applause:
shaq was better, but no one carried each other, haters just mad kobe got rings and their boyfriend is ringless

i think people take issue with stans like you ignoring the circumstances in which kobe won his rings and how he had the great fortune to play with prime shaq for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach ever for the majority of his career.

so when you compare wade to kobe...or lebron to kobe. circumstances come up.

when you compare magic to kobe. circumstances don't factor in as much because they both played on loaded teams from day 1 pretty much.

[tpols]

he should be praised and its a great accomplishment.

it should also be put into proper context. comparing the level of play of kobe in the finals the last 2 years to either shaq or jordan is laughable.

winning finals mvp does not mean the same thing for kobe as it did for most of jordan's or shaq's.

as long as they are put into proper context everyone will be cool with it. i hope the lakers win and kobe wins another finals mvp....i just hope he wins it while having a great series. not his usual mediocre series.
Kobe
29/6/6 on 49% eFG
30/5/5 on 50% eFG
???

Jordan
30/5/4 on 49% eFG
31/8/5 on 47% eFG
32/5/3 on 47% eFG

Kobe's numbers and trendline is actually just as good if not better than jordan's second threepeat.. not even close?:oldlol:

[Colby Brian]

i think people take issue with stans like you ignoring the circumstances in which kobe won his rings and how he had the great fortune to play with prime shaq for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach ever for the majority of his career.

so when you compare wade to kobe...or lebron to kobe. circumstances come up.

when you compare magic to kobe. circumstances don't factor in as much because they both played on loaded teams from day 1 pretty much.

yeah i get what you mean, but the haters are just jealous
anyways, wade has a prime lebron and bosh now, and lebron has a prime bosh and wade, so there on a stacked team now, but just cause you have a stacked team doesnt mean shit, you have to go out their and beat everybody, nobody gives you a ring because on paper your stacked, winning is done on the court

kobe, jordan, magic, kareem, shaq have been on stacked teams, but they won multiple rings, winning is the ultimate goal, so its the ultimate accomplishment

[Poochymama]

Kobe
29/6/6 on 49% eFG
30/5/5 on 50% eFG
???

Jordan
30/5/4 on 49% eFG
31/8/5 on 47% eFG
32/5/3 on 47% eFG

Kobe's numbers and trendline is actually just as good if not better than jordan's second threepeat.. not even close?:oldlol:

What were there FG%??? I ask because, FG% is just as important as eFG and TS

also steals? blocks?Also overall defensive impact must be taken into account, and that's an area where second three peat Jordan completely crushes current Kobe.

[Colby Brian]

Kobe
29/6/6 on 49% eFG
30/5/5 on 50% eFG
???

Jordan
30/5/4 on 49% eFG
31/8/5 on 47% eFG
32/5/3 on 47% eFG

Kobe's numbers and trendline is actually just as good if not better than jordan's second threepeat.. not even close?:oldlol:

30/5/5 and 29/6/6 are great numbers, he just had a couple of bad game in the finals, but so did jordan (5/19 and 6/19 shooting in 2 games in '96 finals)

[bl2k8]

he should be praised and its a great accomplishment.

it should also be put into proper context. comparing the level of play of kobe in the finals the last 2 years to either shaq or jordan is laughable.

winning finals mvp does not mean the same thing for kobe as it did for most of jordan's or shaq's.

as long as they are put into proper context everyone will be cool with it. i hope the lakers win and kobe wins another finals mvp....i just hope he wins it while having a great series. not his usual mediocre series.
Right and it should be noted that Shaq had the luxury of playing against Todd MacCulloch two years in a row

[tpols]

What were there FG%??? I ask because, FG% is just as important as eFG and TS

also steals? blocks?Also overall defensive impact must be taken into account, and that's an area where second three peat Jordan completely crushes current Kobe.
What? Jordan wasn't even close to as good defensively as he was earlier in his career.. this is just bullshit.:oldlol:

And just looked it up...

Kobe had 37 blocks and 69 steals over the past two playoff runs while jordan had 23 blocks and 63 steals through the first two playoff runs of his second threepeat.. so kobe beats jordan in blocks AND steals so far.. Nice try guys.

[Colby Brian]

What were there FG%??? I ask because, FG% is just as important as eFG and TS

also steals? blocks?Also overall defensive impact must be taken into account, and that's an area where second three peat Jordan completely crushes current Kobe.

look for yourself, scroll to playoffs

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

very similar in jordans 2nd 3peat, but not 1st

[ShaqAttack3234]

Right and it should be noted that Shaq had the luxury of playing against Todd MacCulloch two years in a row

Mutombo was the primary defender on Shaq for most of the 2001 finals and :oldlol: at morons acting like Shaq went 1 on 1. It was never just Shaq vs another center. He was arguably doubled and tripled more than any player in NBA history.

[The Iron Fist]

i think people take issue with stans like you ignoring the circumstances in which kobe won his rings and how he had the great fortune to play with prime shaq for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach ever for the majority of his career.

so when you compare wade to kobe...or lebron to kobe. circumstances come up.

when you compare magic to kobe. circumstances don't factor in as much because they both played on loaded teams from day 1 pretty much.


and yet, little clowns like you, don't acknowledge that Shaquille O'neal,

had the great fortune to play with a Kobe Bryant for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach while in his prime.


There is a reason Shaq doesn't have any finals wins until Kobe Bryant became a force,

and its because Kobe Bryant is that damn important to the success of his team.

The thing is, clowns like you don't want to give him credit because you think you're some heavenly analysts whose dive into this stat and that stat,

make you basketballs gods.


If Shaq was that damn good and great,


he'd have been a champion before any of you ever heard of Kobe Bryant.

Now, you morons might have a case if Kobe Bryant had never won another championship post Shaq.

But this season, hes shooting for his fourth finals in a row,

for the second time.

[ginobli2311]

and yet, little clowns like you, don't acknowledge that Shaquille O'neal,

had the great fortune to play with a Kobe Bryant for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach while in his prime.


There is a reason Shaq doesn't have any finals wins until Kobe Bryant became a force,

and its because Kobe Bryant is that damn important to the success of his team.

The thing is, clowns like you don't want to give him credit because you think you're some heavenly analysts whose dive into this stat and that stat,

make you basketballs gods.


If Shaq was that damn good and great,


he'd have been a champion before any of you ever heard of Kobe Bryant.

Now, you morons might have a case if Kobe Bryant had never won another championship post Shaq.

But this season, hes shooting for his fourth finals in a row,

for the second time.

actually i do.

LOL. its why i don't have shaq higher. he needed a ton of help to win as well.

[ginobli2311]

Kobe
29/6/6 on 49% eFG
30/5/5 on 50% eFG
???

Jordan
30/5/4 on 49% eFG
31/8/5 on 47% eFG
32/5/3 on 47% eFG

Kobe's numbers and trendline is actually just as good if not better than jordan's second threepeat.. not even close?:oldlol:

1. it depends on which years we are discussing. why would you pick jordan's worst years and kobe's best? its not jordan's fault that kobe wasn't good enough to win a finals mvp in his prime.

2. Jordan was the reason those Bulls teams won. He flat out carried them for the most part. Not the same with Kobe. To put it simply, I don't think Jordan could have ever played the way Kobe did this year in the finals overall and come away with a win. Kobe shot horribly. Shot jacked. Played really bad late in games. Had a truly awful game 7.

It goes beyond just raw stats.

How about we compare Kobe's best 2 finals mvps to jordan's best 2 finals mvps so its a bit more fair than taking kobe's best vs jordan's worst.

Not to mention how much easier it is now to score from the perimeter. Almost makes any comparison pointless. You'd definitely see an increase in Jordan's production if you couldn't touch him as he blows by ray allen and tony allen and paul pierce if he played the celtics like kobe did. LOL at ray allen locking up Jordan.

[SavageMode]

In terms of dominance and presence affecting the game more? Shaq easily

[Poochymama]

What? Jordan wasn't even close to as good defensively as he was earlier in his career.. this is just bullshit.:oldlol:

And just looked it up...

Kobe had 37 blocks and 69 steals over the past two playoff runs while jordan had 23 blocks and 63 steals through the first two playoff runs of his second threepeat.. so kobe beats jordan in blocks AND steals so far.. Nice try guys.

Woah there man, calm down lol. I wasn't asking because I thought Jordan was ahead, I was just asking because you didn't provide all the information. That's all.

As for Jordan's defense, your somewhat right about the first part. First 3-peat Jordan was clearly a better defender than second 3-peat Jordan, but that's taking things somewhat out of context. Second 3-peat Jordan was still infinitely stronger defensively than current Kobe(you could even say Kobe's defense these past couple years has been bad, where as second three-peat Jordan was considered the 2 or 3rd best perimeter defender in the league and at worst 4th). So while you are correct in saying second 3-peat Jordan < first 3-peat Jordan defensively, that doesn't change the fact that second 3-peat Jordan > current Kobe and possibly any version of Kobe defensively. Remember we're comparing second 3-peat Jordan to current Kobe, not second 3-peat Jordan to first 3-peat Jordan.

And for those who were wondering, here are the complete stats

Kobe

PTS/REB/ASS/STL/BLK/TOV
30.1/5.7/5.6/1.6/0.4/3.3 on 48% FG 58% TS 51% eFG PER 25.0
30.2/5.3/5.5/1.6/0.9/2.6 on 46% FG 56% TS 49% eFG PER 26.8
29.2/6.0/5.5/1.3/0.7/3.4 on 46% FG 57% TS 51% eFG PER 24.7
OVR
29.8/5.6/5.5/1.5/0.7/3.1 on 47% FG 56% TS 50% eFG PER 25.5

Jordan

PTS/REB/ASS/STL/BLK/TOV
30.7/4.9/4.1/1.8/0.3/2.3 on 46% FG 56% TS 49% eFG PER 26.7
31.1/7.9/4.8/1.6/0.9/2.4 on 46% FG 52% TS 47% eFG PER 27.1
32.4/5.1/4.5/1.5/0.6/2.1 on 46% FG 55% TS 47% eFG PER 28.1
OVR
31.4/6.0/4.5/1.6/0.6/2.3 on 46% FG 54% TS 48% eFG PER 27.3

So just comparing the two:
Jordan average more ppg
Jordan was better on the boards
Kobe was considerably better at grabbing assists
Jordan was slightly better at stealing the ball
Kobe was slightly better at blocking the ball
Jordan committed considerably less turnovers
Kobe shot more efficiently all around

Just so you know, I'm not really disagreeing with you(I've always said that current Kobe is very comparable to second 3-peat Jordan offensively), I was just wanting to see all the stats because I know you tend to be a fairly biased poster(no offense), thats all.

[Unstoppabull]

Nobody carried either.
Kobe and Shaq were both really good during those years, they were like equals.

[Papaya Petee]

Shaq was clearly the better player, you have no evidence to shows otherwise, except nitpicking random numbers.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Shaq carried Kobe?
Please. It was a 2 way relationship, Shaq couldn't have done it without Kobe, and vice versa. Remember when Shaq fouled out? Who reeled the Lakers to victory in overtime?
Kobe did a lot more than just being "Scottie Pippien".

Too many people are trying to discredit him apparently. Those were not just mere sidekick rings.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq carried Kobe?
Please. It was a 2 way relationship, Shaq couldn't have done it without Kobe, and vice versa. Remember when Shaq fouled out? Who reeled the Lakers to victory in overtime?
Kobe did a lot more than just being "Scottie Pippien".

Too many people are trying to discredit him apparently. Those were not just mere sidekick rings.

What do you mean "just" being Scottie Pippen? Do you have any idea how much Pippen impacted a game? Whether it be his all time great defense on the perimeter, the ability to average 7-9 rpg at the SF position, run the offense as the Bulls de facto point guard and still score 20+, Scottie's rings shouldn't be looked at as "mere sidekick rings" either. Kobe's role on the 2001 and 2002 teams was a lot different than Pippen's and he was better than Scottie by that point, IMO, but the year you're referring to with the overtime game(2000), he wasn't as good as Pippen yet.

[AlphaWolf24]

and yet, little clowns like you, don't acknowledge that Shaquille O'neal,

had the great fortune to play with a Kobe Bryant for 8 years of his career and the greatest coach while in his prime.


There is a reason Shaq doesn't have any finals wins until Kobe Bryant became a force,

and its because Kobe Bryant is that damn important to the success of his team.

The thing is, clowns like you don't want to give him credit because you think you're some heavenly analysts whose dive into this stat and that stat,

make you basketballs gods.


If Shaq was that damn good and great,


he'd have been a champion before any of you ever heard of Kobe Bryant.

Now, you morons might have a case if Kobe Bryant had never won another championship post Shaq.

But this season, hes shooting for his fourth finals in a row,

for the second time.

:applause: THIS

[AlphaWolf24]

shaqs latest ring was givin in the exact same situation as kobes last ring. Dwade got shaq his and pau won kobe his last without a doubt. I was refering how kobe knew he was not top dog so he acted like a ***** to grab leadership of the team.

And to alpha wolf- Shaq won them games in the first 3 quarters. No need for a fourth in most situations.


sure he did:facepalm >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=383sFr1IkcI&feature=channel_video_title


scored or assisted on the Final 6 points that turned the Laker Franchise around for over a decade...I watched the game that decided the Lakers identity...It was Kobe.

[HeatWITNESS]

Ok Shaq apparently "carried" kobe to 3 rings

AND YET
Kobe has 2 rings without Shaq and is likely to get his third this year
Shaq has only one ring without Kobe, and he needed what many call a ref aided Dwayne Wade performance to get that one Kobe-less ring.


It's time to rexamine the past and view the true reality.

It looks like Kobe was the one carrying Shaq when you look at things like this

this is the most ignorant statement ive ever seen. the Heat Shaq was past his prime. and i think youre forgetting the current big men of the Lakers. Kobe grew as a player. Granted Kobe averaged 25.2 ppg the last year of the 3-peat. He still was not the player when he played with Shaq that he is today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY&feature=related

[ShaqAttack3234]

actually i do.

LOL. its why i don't have shaq higher. he needed a ton of help to win as well.

Not any more than most champions, less than a lot of them. Especially the 2000 team, here's what Phil Jackson had to say.


we were far from being the most talented team in the league. Indiana, Portland, Phoenix, Sacramento, and New York were all ball clubs whose top eight or nine players had more talent than we had in our regular rotation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PfmN_pM0qF0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=phil+jackson+more+than+a+game&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=VRaJTYHtEIvegQfty5m6DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=top%20eight&f=false


We'd won sixty-seven games on Shaq's back.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PfmN_pM0qF0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=phil+jackson+more+than+a+game&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=VRaJTYHtEIvegQfty5m6DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=sixty-seven%20games&f=false

[Artillery]

Nobody carried either.
Kobe and Shaq were both really good during those years, they were like equals.

Nope.

[AlphaWolf24]

this is the most ignorant statement ive ever seen. the Heat Shaq was past his prime. and i think youre forgetting the current big men of the Lakers. Kobe grew as a player. Granted Kobe averaged 25.2 ppg the last year of the 3-peat. He still was not the player when he played with Shaq that he is today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY&feature=related


This is not really accurate....was Kobe exactly the same player???...no......But, Kobe was being called the best player in the NBA at 22 years old by many including ESPN who ran a 3 page story...claiming Kobe was the best player in the league.

and your saying in 2 years Shaq fell out of his peak shape....despite working out for 6 months with a Navy seal and getting in the best shape since 2000???

Shaq was Motivated and in excellent shape in Miami...he was in better shape in Miami then the last couple seasons in L.A.


keep it real

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is not really accurate....was Kobe exactly the same player???...no......But, Kobe was being called the best player in the NBA at 22 years old by many including ESPN who ran a 3 page story...claiming Kobe was the best player in the league.

and your saying in 2 years Shaq fell out of his peak shape....despite working out for 6 months with a Navy seal and getting in the best shape since 2000???

Shaq was Motivated and in excellent shape in Miami...he was in better shape in Miami then the last couple seasons in L.A.


keep it real

Shaq clearly wasn't the player in Miami that he was with the Lakers, not even close to his 3peat level, particularly by 2006.

And the Lakers went 11-3 without the "best player" in 2001. :oldlol:

[MaxFly]

Kobe

PTS/REB/ASS/STL/BLK/TOV
30.1/5.7/5.6/1.6/0.4/3.3 on 48% FG 58% TS 51% eFG PER 25.0
30.2/5.3/5.5/1.6/0.9/2.6 on 46% FG 56% TS 49% eFG PER 26.8
29.2/6.0/5.5/1.3/0.7/3.4 on 46% FG 57% TS 51% eFG PER 24.7
OVR
29.8/5.6/5.5/1.5/0.7/3.1 on 47% FG 56% TS 50% eFG PER 25.5

Jordan

PTS/REB/ASS/STL/BLK/TOV
30.7/4.9/4.1/1.8/0.3/2.3 on 46% FG 56% TS 49% eFG PER 26.7
31.1/7.9/4.8/1.6/0.9/2.4 on 46% FG 52% TS 47% eFG PER 27.1
32.4/5.1/4.5/1.5/0.6/2.1 on 46% FG 55% TS 47% eFG PER 28.1
OVR
31.4/6.0/4.5/1.6/0.6/2.3 on 46% FG 54% TS 48% eFG PER 27.3


Thanks for the stats. Wow, those numbers are eerily similar. I'm going to say it before anyone else does... Bryant has not only stolen some of Jordan's moves and celebrations, but he's attempted to steal some of his numbers as well. SMH



Before any Laker fans jump on me, it was a joke.

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq clearly wasn't the player in Miami that he was with the Lakers, not even close to his 3peat level, particularly by 2006.

And the Lakers went 11-3 without the "best player" in 2001. :oldlol:


http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2184000/AlphaWolf-2184630_340_473.jpg
Wonder why??????...hmmmm....let me think.



Kobe going to 4 straight Finals without Shaq....:confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2184000/AlphaWolf-2184630_340_473.jpg
Wonder why??????...hmmmm....let me think.



Kobe going to 4 straight Finals without Shaq....:confusedshrug:

You're a moron, you do realize that Shaq's numbers in the 30 games he played without Kobe were better than his numbers with Kobe during the 3peat, right?

Did you forget what kind of numbers a young Shaq was putting up in Orlando? Or during Kobe's first 2 years when he was a bench player? It's not surprising that he peaked in 2000 and 2001 at 27/28.

Neither Shaq or Kobe made the other, they were great players regardless. Stop the ridiculous trolling.

And the playoffs haven't even started this year. The Lakers are probably the favorite again, but they haven't gotten to the finals yet.

[Mark Madsen]

LOL @ Kobe ever being comparable to second 3peat Jordan

Kobe has only ever been comparable to Wizards Jordan

[magnax1]

Shaqobe was more Shaq then Kobe. That's why it's not Shakobe.

[AlphaWolf24]

You're a moron, you do realize that Shaq's numbers in the 30 games he played without Kobe were better than his numbers with Kobe during the 3peat, right?

Did you forget what kind of numbers a young Shaq was putting up in Orlando? Or during Kobe's first 2 years when he was a bench player? It's not surprising that he peaked in 2000 and 2001 at 27/28.

Neither Shaq or Kobe made the other, they were great players regardless. Stop the ridiculous trolling.

And the playoffs haven't even started this year. The Lakers are probably the favorite again, but they haven't gotten to the finals yet.


Whoa...Whoa....Whoa......Hit the peddle in the middle.

The whole reason why Kobe detractors slight Kobe is because Kobe didn't get a Finals MVP in the 'Post season"...the whole reason Shaq spit his game was to slight Kobe losing in the "Finals".....

That's the only reason I ever heard to how Kobe wasn't as important as Shaq.

I never heard.."Could Kobe average 29 - 30PPG without Shaq"....It was "Can Kobe win a Title without Shaq as" the man".....

for 2 of the Title runs Kobe actually had more FG attempts then Shaq and similar points....and Kobe had to wait till the 4th to take over.But detractors look at Finals MVP's....and try to slight Kobe.

of course Shaq could average 28 - 29PPG 10 rebs without Kobe....

Just as Kobe could average 28 - 30PPG 5 and 5 without Shaq.....I'm not arguing that..


I'm talking about the same thing Kobe detractors said..."winning as the man"


Shaq never had the success without Kobe...even though he played with Penny , Wade , Nash and Lebron....

Kobe has been to 3 straight Finals without Shaq....Shaq hasn't sniffed that without Kobe(even though he's played half his career without)

aint nobody trolling.....just being real, Shaq would have never won 3 straight Titles if he played with TMAC or Penny

Quit acting stupid....your better then that son.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Whoa...Whoa....Whoa......Hit the peddle in the middle.

The whole reason why Kobe detractors slight Kobe is because Kobe didn't get a Finals MVP in the 'Post season"...the whole reason Shaq spit his game was to slight Kobe losing in the "Finals".....

That's the only reason I ever heard to how Kobe wasn't as important as Shaq.

I never heard.."Could Kobe average 29 - 30PPG without Shaq"....It was "Can Kobe win a Title without Shaq as" the man".....

for 2 of the Title runs Kobe actually had more FG attempts then Shaq and similar points....and Kobe had to wait till the 4th to take over.But detractors look at Finals MVP's....and try to slight Kobe.

of course Shaq could average 28 - 29PPG 10 rebs without Kobe....

Just as Kobe could average 28 - 30PPG 5 and 5 without Shaq.....I'm not arguing that..


I'm talking about the same thing Kobe detractors said..."winning as the man"


Shaq never had the success without Kobe...even though he played with Penny , Wade , Nash and Lebron....

Kobe has been to 3 straight Finals without Shaq....Shaq hasn't sniffed that without Kobe(even though he's played half his career without)

aint nobody trolling.....just being real, Shaq would have never won 3 straight Titles if he played with TMAC or Penny

Quit acting stupid....your better then that son.

Shaq played with Kobe from the time he was 24 until he was 32. I don't see how you can penalize a not doing more than win a title, play in the finals twice, win a scoring title and finish 2nd in MVP voting twice in the years before he turned 24 and after he turned 32. His prime years happened to be with Kobe. We have no idea what he could've done with a different cast, it all depends on how much all around talent he had, who he was paired with, who was coaching and how clutch the cast was.

How much do most players do before 24 and after 32?

[Bigsmoke]

Shaq.

its hard to turn down 30ppg on 60% shooting.

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq played with Kobe from the time he was 24 until he was 32. I don't see how you can penalize a not doing more than win a title, play in the finals twice, win a scoring title and finish 2nd in MVP voting twice in the years before he turned 24 and after he turned 32. His prime years happened to be with Kobe. We have no idea what he could've done with a different cast, it all depends on how much all around talent he had, who he was paired with, who was coaching and how clutch the cast was.

How much do most players do before 24 and after 32?



Oh No...you just said Look at Shaq's Stats before Kobe...

no doubt he could score and rebound...aint disputing that.

Orlando Shaq
20 years old = 41 - 41 missed the playoffs
21 years old = 50 - 32 swept in the first round
22 years old = 57 - 25 lost in the NBA Finals
24 years old = 60 - 22 lost in the ECFinals
Miami Shaq
32 years old = 59 - 23 lost in ECFinals
33 years old = 52 - 30 won Finals
34 years old = 44 - 38 swept 3 - 0 in the first round
35 years old = 15 - 67 missed the playoff's (Injured)



Kobe and Shaq both as starters..

31 - 19 lost in the WCSFinals
67 - 15 won NBA Finals
56 - 26 won NBA Finals
58 - 24 won NBA Finals
50 - 32 Lost WCSFinals
56 - 26 Lost in the NBA Finals

Kobe without Shaq
26 years old = 34 - 48 missed the playoffs
27 years old = 45 - 37 lossed in the first round 4 - 3
28 years old = 42 - 40 lossed in the first round 4 -1
29 years old = 57 - 25 lost NBA Finals
30 years old = 65 - 17 won NBA Finals
31 years old = 57 - 25 won NBA Finals


Shaq had 5 50+ winning teams and only won 1 title without Kobe....Kobe has been on 3 50+ win teams and been to 3 straight Finals winning 2.

Together they were a Dynasty.....without Kobe , Shaq is no where near that same level "winning as the man"....Kobe is....and still going




next

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh No...you just said Look at Shaq's Stats before Kobe...

no doubt he could score and rebound...aint disputing that.

Orlando Shaq
20 years old = 41 - 41 missed the playoffs
21 years old = 50 - 32 swept in the first round
22 years old = 57 - 25 lost in the NBA Finals
24 years old = 60 - 22 lost in the ECFinals
Miami Shaq
32 years old = 59 - 23 lost in ECFinals
33 years old = 52 - 30 won Finals
34 years old = 44 - 38 swept 3 - 0 in the first round
35 years old = 15 - 67 missed the playoff's (Injured)



Kobe and Shaq both as starters..

31 - 19 lost in the WCSFinals
67 - 15 won NBA Finals
56 - 26 won NBA Finals
58 - 24 won NBA Finals
50 - 32 Lost WCSFinals
56 - 26 Lost in the NBA Finals

Kobe without Shaq
26 years old = 34 - 48 missed the playoffs
27 years old = 45 - 37 lossed in the first round 4 - 3
28 years old = 42 - 40 lossed in the first round 4 -1
29 years old = 57 - 25 lost NBA Finals
30 years old = 65 - 17 won NBA Finals
31 years old = 57 - 25 won NBA Finals


Shaq had 5 50+ winning teams and only won 1 title without Kobe....Kobe has been on 3 50+ win teams and been to 3 straight Finals winning 2.

Together they were a Dynasty.....without Kobe , Shaq is no where near that same level "winning as the man"....Kobe is....and still going




next


Kobe was 25 when Shaq was traded, you can't compare what they did without each other. And Shaq has 3 rings as "the man", Kobe has two.

Like in the other threads, I'm tired of destroying your biased crap. I'm done with you in this thread.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe was 25 when Shaq was traded, you can't compare what they did without each other. And Shaq has 3 rings as "the man", Kobe has two.

Like in the other threads, I'm tired of destroying your biased crap. I'm done with you in this thread.


Sure you can....Shaq played without Kobe at 23...??

I'll take that as a sign of defeat then..."the man"...lol

Without Kobe Shaq is just a happy Moses Malone.


next

[ginobli2311]

Shaq played with Kobe from the time he was 24 until he was 32. I don't see how you can penalize a not doing more than win a title, play in the finals twice, win a scoring title and finish 2nd in MVP voting twice in the years before he turned 24 and after he turned 32. His prime years happened to be with Kobe. We have no idea what he could've done with a different cast, it all depends on how much all around talent he had, who he was paired with, who was coaching and how clutch the cast was.

How much do most players do before 24 and after 32?

this times a million.

[AlphaWolf24]

this times a million.


naw....he went to the finals once and got mopped up by Dream.

[ginobli2311]

naw....he went to the finals once and got mopped up by Dream.

so we should judge kobe heavily on his first 4 years?

[Christofire]

Obviously Shaq was better and played a big role, but Kobe was a legit second option puting up number one option numbers. Its a team game, Kobe is apart of the team just like Shaq was. There's so many great second and third options that won multiple rings who weren't nearly as good as the first option yet their rings don't get an asterisk.


Kobe was the best player for the last 2 championships of the 3 peat. People just love to throw the sidekick thing out there just to get under laker fans skin but anyone that watched \la new that \kobe was the better player of the 2

[D.J.]

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter said in interviews that Shaq was the go to guy, not Kobe. The duo wasn't known as "Kobe and Shaq". It was called "Shaq and Kobe". During that three peat, Shaq had three Finals MVPs, Kobe had zilch.

[0000000]

2 top 10 players of all time and people say one carried another? Absolute nonsense. Kobe was hated on for too long and he had to really prove his worth to people. By the time he won his first ring without Shaq, people just should've stopped saying that. The argument got invalid then because Kobe proved them that. Yet, some still insist. The hate is deep. But good thing is, that kinda stuff motivates Kobe, fuels him to work his ass off and makes him obsessed with proving people wrong...so for any additional rings Kobe's yet to win, as a Laker fan, I thank you, haters :D
To anyone with common sense it's crystal clear that both are amazing players and even though Shaq might've been better at that time, Kobe was a legit superstar and a worthy go to guy as well. Lakers had 2 go to guys at that time, not a first and a second option or anything like that. 2 go to guys, one might've been better than the other but 2 go to guys, similar to how Wade and LeBron are right now.

[Mark Madsen]

so we should judge kobe heavily on his first 4 years?

He also didn't have his team to bail him out like Kobe did in the finals ... what can you do? :confusedshrug:

[0000000]

Kobe was the best player for the last 2 championships of the 3 peat. People just love to throw the sidekick thing out there just to get under laker fans skin but anyone that watched \la new that \kobe was the better player of the 2

Well, Shaq won those finals MVP's. Kobe was better in the playoffs the last two years IMO. He's the one who was really burying the Spurs and the Kings.

[AlphaWolf24]

so we should judge kobe heavily on his first 4 years?

Best player in the NBA in his 4th year:confusedshrug:

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2173000/AlphaWolf-2173769_596_800.jpg

[Micku]

Best player in the NBA in his 4th year:confusedshrug:


He wasn't the best player. I think AI was consider better at that time, but people were rooting for Kobe since his rookie year. Shaq was the best player still.

[AlphaWolf24]

He wasn't the best player. I think AI was consider better at that time, but people were rooting for Kobe since his rookie year. Shaq was the best player still.

Best allaround player = Kobe....check the ESPN article.

Shaq has way too many holes in his game....Lakers were taking timeouts to put him on the bench in crunchtime.

That's not what the best player in the NBA does.

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe has never been as good as Shaq was in like 1997 when he was actually playing. Which isnt exactly an insult. There are only like...7 people worth even asking about being as good as Shaq was in his prime.

Shaq in just his second or third season form would be the best player in the NBA in each of the last......7 years or so. Perhaps 5 of the 7 but even in the 2arguable ones...Kobe wouldnt be #1 anyway.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe has never been as good as Shaq was in like 1997 when he was actually playing. Which isnt exactly an insult. There are only like...7 people worth even asking about being as good as Shaq was in his prime.

Shaq in just his second or third season form would be the best player in the NBA in each of the last......7 years or so. Perhaps 5 of the 7 but even in the 2arguable ones...Kobe wouldnt be #1 anyway.


Shaq and Phil both said Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001.....again ESPN also echoed this statement.

Kobe was by far a better allaround player then Shaq.
a better defensive player and a better offensive skillset.

That's why he was the First option in the 4th...and in crunchtime...he was overall a better player.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe could've averaged 40 points and Shaq still would have been the better player.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

lol @ Kobe being better than Shaq in his prime. Anybody who thinks so never watched the Shaq era of the Lakers.

[Big#50]

How did I mess this gem?.?.?.?
As a true Lakers fan, this is my opinion. Kobe was the second option. Shaq opened up everything for him. Shaq was bein guarded by two, three players at times. Shaq wore down defenses, which made it way easier for Kobe. KObe played great against the Spurs because they had nobody to guard him. The Spurs whole game plan was to stop Shaq and have Kobe go wild. Kobe was and always be inferior to the Diesel. That team was all Shaq with Kobe getting his leftovers. Sure he had good numbersbut any real Lakers fan knows whose team it was, and who got them those rings. Kobe Stans want to rewrite history.LOL

[Big#50]

Best allaround player = Kobe....check the ESPN article.

Shaq has way too many holes in his game....Lakers were taking timeouts to put him on the bench in crunchtime.

That's not what the best player in the NBA does.
Myth. You started watching the Lakers after Kobe had 81. Admit it.

[whoartthou]

Kobe could've averaged 40 points and Shaq still would have been the better player.

on abysmal field goal percent? :no:

[whoartthou]

How did I mess this gem?.?.?.?
As a true Lakers fan, this is my opinion. Kobe was the second option. Shaq opened up everything for him. Shaq was bein guarded by two, three players at times. Shaq wore down defenses, which made it way easier for Kobe. KObe played great against the Spurs because they had nobody to guard him. The Spurs whole game plan was to stop Shaq and have Kobe go wild. Kobe was and always be inferior to the Diesel. That team was all Shaq with Kobe getting his leftovers. Sure he had good numbersbut any real Lakers fan knows whose team it was, and who got them those rings. Kobe Stans want to rewrite history.LOL
:applause:

[Micku]

Best allaround player = Kobe....check the ESPN article.

Shaq has way too many holes in his game....Lakers were taking timeouts to put him on the bench in crunchtime.

That's not what the best player in the NBA does.

You can be a better all around player, but that doesn't mean that you are the best player. Like Pippen is probably the best all around player of all time, but Bird is the better player.

Like Shaq. Shaq was the best player because nobody could stop him. But you can't ask him to dribble the ball or pass like a point guard. His job is to post up, and give the team nightmares. And the Lakers did not take Shaq out during clutch time. They kept him in. There's no way a guy averaging 28 ppg and 57% isn't going to be in there.

[momo]

http://www.solidprinciples.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Charlie-Brown-Rolling-Eyes.jpg

[whoartthou]

You can be a better all around player, but that doesn't mean that you are the best player. Like Pippen is probably the best all around player of all time, but Bird is the better player.

Like Shaq. Shaq was the best player because nobody could stop him. But you can't ask him to dribble the ball or pass like a point guard. His job is to post up, and give the team nightmares. And the Lakers did not take Shaq out during clutch time. They kept him in. There's no way a guy averaging 28 ppg and 57% isn't going to be in there.
:banana: :banana:

[pauk]

SHAQ > KOBE

nothing more to be said here...

/THREAD

[pauk]

You can be a better all around player, but that doesn't mean that you are the best player. Like Pippen is probably the best all around player of all time, but Bird is the better player.

Like Shaq. Shaq was the best player because nobody could stop him. But you can't ask him to dribble the ball or pass like a point guard. His job is to post up, and give the team nightmares. And the Lakers did not take Shaq out during clutch time. They kept him in. There's no way a guy averaging 28 ppg and 57% isn't going to be in there.

hell no
best all around players:

oscar
jordan
lebron
magic
prime grant hill
prime penny
larry bird

were all better all around players than pippen (and better than pippen)... but yea he is right up there with them, but behind them

[Micku]

hell no
best all around players:

oscar
jordan
lebron
magic
prime grant hill
prime penny
larry bird

were all better all around players than pippen (and better than pippen)... but yea he is right up there with them, but behind them

*kicks* You're screwing up my example!


j/k

I won't argue.

[ImKobe]

Shaq needed a star wing to close games & series for him in order to win championships and KB never did. People still argue that it's easier to build around Shaq but the truth is that he needed more perimeter shooting and elite playmaking than a player like KB ever did. Wilt put up the most dominant numbers ever but only won twice because of those same limitations & he was a better defender for his time as well.

[Axe]

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