I still believe russell westbrook > Rose

[Mamba]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

[KG5MVP]

you're a kobe homer so i wouldn't be surprised if you still believe that the sun revolves aruond the earth.

[Dave3]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha
More assists, rebounds, and better FG% all by a fraction of a unit? Those are the reasons you're putting Rose ahead of Westbrook? Rose easily does more for his team, considering Westbrook isn't even the best player on his own team. And no I'm not a Bulls fan, just not a fan of illogical thinking.

[KG5MVP]

More assists, rebounds, and better FG% all by a fraction of a unit? Those are the reasons you're putting Rose ahead of Westbrook? Rose easily does more for his team, considering Westbrook isn't even the best player on his own team. And no I'm not a Bulls fan, just not a fan of illogical thinking.

he's a kobe homer, it's useless trying to use reason and logic.

[SAKOTXA]

you're a kobe homer so i wouldn't be surprised if you still believe that the sun revolves aruond the earth.
This guy's not even a Laker fan. He hops on and off the bandwagon every month.

[JChurches]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha


I think if you were to swap Rose and Westbrook the Bulls would be better and the Thunder would be worse.

[Dave3]

he's a kobe homer, it's useless trying to use reason and logic.
No he's not. His nickname is Mamba but he's not a Lakers or Kobe fan. He's explained it before.

[nbastatus]

you're a kobe homer so i wouldn't be surprised if you still believe that the sun revolves aruond the earth.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[themurph]

No he's not. His nickname is Mamba but he's not a Lakers or Kobe fan. He's explained it before.


It doesn't matter what he is...It's just an unintelligent comment....

[cteach111]

well, you'd have to let westbrook have at least a season to lead his team. He's not in that situation and won't be any time soon.

[Dengness9]

Way to focus solely on stats and then saying Russ is "more athletic".

Sorry your wrong brah'.

Westbrook plays next to an MVP candidate and the league leader in PPG.

Rose plays with 0 All-Stars.

Rose double and triple teamed all game.

Bulls 1 seed in East.

Rose = 2011 MVP

is what it is.

[FindingTim]

Is Westbrook really more athletic? that is saying a lot considering Rose is an athletic freak

[b0bab0i]

Way to focus solely on stats and then saying Russ is "more athletic".

Sorry your wrong brah'.

Westbrook plays next to an MVP candidate and the league leader in PPG.

Rose plays with 0 All-Stars.

Rose double and triple teamed all game.

Bulls 1 seed in East.

Rose = 2011 MVP

is what it is.
Carlos boozer is an all star

[moe94]

Is Westbrook really more athletic? that is saying a lot considering Rose is an athletic freakIt's very arguable. Neither is really more athletic than the other.

[pauk]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

actually he averages MORE of everything PER SIMILAR MINUTES TO ROSE......

[entropy35]

I would actually say they are about equal. Rose is overrated a little bit while Westbrook is underrated. Westbrook is definitely the better defender while rose is the better scorer. Pretty equal in my opinion.

[Harison]

I have Rose as slightly better, but only by so much. Its true as some are saying Westbrook is 2nd option and Rose as first, but dont you think Westbrook would score more if he would shoot more? Granted his FG% would be even lower than Rose due to increased defensive attention, its a double edged sword.

Bottom line - both players surprised me this year, and both have huge potential. You can make a case either one of them will end up as a better player, but injuries might struck anytime. Remember GHill, Tmac, or recently BRoy? If perfectly healthy, IMO their teams success would weight heavily who is perceived as better.

[kumquat]

I love Westbrook, but I don't think he could carry a team like Rose can.

[asdf1990]

I love Westbrook, but I don't think he could carry a team like Rose can.

lol, rose carries the team while going 6-20 most nights.

[2010splash]

More steals? :oldlol:

Rose is better than Westbrook. 10 times more clutch (i.e go to guy of his team and he delivers), better scorer, much better defender, gets way more defensive attention etc.

[kumquat]

lol, rose carries the team while going 6-20 most nights.

considering rose has a 43.9% shooting percentage and westbrook is shooting at 44.4% there goes that theory

Rose a career 46% avg and westbrook a career 44.4%.

Also consider Rose is double teamed most nights, Durant leaves Westbrook open for his picking.

[Ikill]

:lol at Westbrook being more athletic

[pmj]

Rose is better offensively right now, and they are about equal in everything else.

I think they could have the same ceiling eventually, but I'm not sure right now how Westbrook would do as the main guy, and we know how Rose is doing as the main guy (#1 seed).

[Bigsmoke]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

saying a PG is better because he has more rebounds per game :oldlol:

maybe its because there arent too many rebounders on the Thunder in the first place.

[Ikill]

saying a PG is better because he has more rebounds per game :oldlol:

maybe its because there arent too many rebounders on the Thunder in the first place.
this Westbrook and Durant are very overrated as rebounder's

[Bigsmoke]

considering rose has a 43.9% shooting percentage and westbrook is shooting at 44.4% there goes that theory

Rose a career 46% avg and westbrook a career 44.4%.

Also consider Rose is double teamed most nights, Durant leaves Westbrook open for his picking.

thats right.

we should be comparing Kevin Durant to Derrick Rose and the answer is Rose to that comparison

[liquidrage]

Rose double and triple teamed all game.


Retarded. It's basketball. Teams double outside the post almost never. Rose gets trapped off the pick-n-roll. That's it.

The closest you'll see to a true double on a perimeter player is Florida vs BYU where they literally doubled Jimmer a few times in the first half the other night.



Read this:
http://archive.chicagobreakingsports.com/2011/02/thibodeau-disputes-bulls-difficulty-with-warriors-defense.html

If Rose (or any pg) is outside and a teammate comes over to set a pick, there's now 2 defenders there and against Rose sometimes teams decide to play it where both defenders trap Rose leaving the player setting the pick open.

Here's a quote from Rose from that same game:

"We were just out of sync," Rose said. "The way they double-team is kind of weird. They had three people on one side making sure when I come off the pick two people were on me. If I made the little slip pass, someone was sticking Carlos. It was a tough night.

"I couldn't get a feel for the game because they wouldn't let me. I couldn't split the double-team. When I dragged it out, they came out with me. Every pick-and-roll they trapped."

So the only thing that's real about it is the double team on the trap off a pick-n-roll. WOW!

But don't act like he's just sitting there outside and two defenders come over to him. It's the NBA, that does not happen. Teams like to trap him off the pick-n-roll and he's far from the only PG to get that treatment though he probably sees that on a regular basis.


This 1st option/second option business is just crap. The amount of shots you get to take effects your scoring. The focus of the other team's D? Not so much since teams are very limited in what they can do. Think back to all the games with Lebron him Cleveland where the other team guarded him with 2 guys? Remember Jordan shooting over Ehlo and Mark Price? Rose is guarded by one person all game. Off the pick-n-roll he gets trapped. That's it.

[Calabis]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

No he's not

[PurpleChuck]

Westbrook > Rose.:applause:

[DeronMillsap]

Not until other teams start game-planning against Westbrook the same way they do for Rose then you can't go just their numbers. Along with Westbrook having to carry his team without another superstar caliber player.

[Go Getter]

Westbrook > Rose.:applause:
Nice try, lol.

[PurpleChuck]

Nice try, lol.
Deal with facts bro.:facepalm

[DStebb716]

you're a kobe homer so i wouldn't be surprised if you still believe that the sun revolves aruond the earth.

Makes no sense. The sun DOES revolve around the earth. Just go outside once in a while and watch the sun, it moves through the sky, the earth doesn't move through the sun's sky.











/Sarcasm.

[50inchvertical]

Not until other teams start game-planning against Westbrook the same way they do for Rose then you can't go just their numbers. Along with Westbrook having to carry his team without another superstar caliber player.

http://i53.tinypic.com/s11b8w.jpg


Teams do try to double and triple team Russell, especially off pick and rolls. He's too damn fast. He just splits it and dunks on somebody or commits a charge. What do you think, Westbrook just makes open jumpshots off KD kickouts? He's not even that type of player.

ANd statistically, Rose and Westbrook are as close as ever so people trying to make it a runaway like Rose is so dominantly better are hilarious. Head to head, Russell also got the better of the matchup just slightly.

Russ's scoring average are higher (put up 43 on NJ, went INTO Boston no KD no JG and won that game) without Durant as well so that argument holds little water.

Team record is next, not a bad factor to use, but still 1 plays in the East and the other in the West skews that as well. The Thunder have only 7 losses against the East, to ~ 21 wins so that'd make their winning percentage ~ .750

Athleticism is fairly subjective, but if you want to call getting to the ft line a function of that then Russ wins as well, getting 8fta per to ROse's 6fta per.

Or if you want to say well who dunks more, then Westbrook wins that having dunked 22 more times than Rose this season (48 to 26)
http://i53.tinypic.com/s11b8w.jpg

[50inchvertical]

The Rose with no help argument is laughable too since the same Rose homers where the ones bitching that Deng didn't make the all star team and what is Boozer, spring chicken?

Hell, the matchup between OKC-CHI that the Bulls won, it was Boozer with his 29 and Deng with his 18 that carried the team. Rose had like 11

[Glide2keva]

4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 80-83
4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 81-83
3:36 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 83-83
2:50 83-87 Brandon Jennings shooting foul (Derrick Rose draws the foul)
2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 84-87
2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 85-87
2:28 Joakim Noah makes dunk (Derrick Rose assists) 87-87
1:53 Derrick Rose makes layup 89-87
1:07 Derrick Rose makes 13-foot jumper 91-87
0:42 Derrick Rose makes 14-foot jumper 93-87
0:29 Ronnie Brewer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 95-87
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter
0:00 End Game

When Westbrook (and I like him as a player) can do this and close out a come from behind victory like on the road, then talk to me.

Until then Westbrook = second option, Rose = MVP

[Alamo]

Nope, Rose is better. Westbrook might be a better defender but he is also the king of turnovers. Rose is a better scorer, 3pt shooter, and FT shooter and just a better leader.

It seems like the only ones who think Westbrook is better are Rose haters or Thunder fans =/

[Go Getter]

You can be mad all you want man but RW is the second best player on the team, Durant is better than anyone Rose has ever played with, and if you switched the two I reckon the Bulls wouldn't be #1 in the east and the Thunder would be better than they are now.

Not to mention Rose won the starting PG job over RW this summer and is having an MVP season.

[Glide2keva]

You can be mad all you want man but RW is the second best player on the team, Durant is better than anyone Rose has ever played with, and if you switched the two I reckon the Bulls wouldn't be #1 in the east and the Thunder would be better than they are now.

Not to mention Rose won the starting PG job over RW this summer and is having an MVP season.
And over that scrub Rondo too.

[Allstar24]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha
I still believe you are a dumbass and this forum would be more bearable if you would just go away.

[50inchvertical]

When Westbrook (and I like him as a player) can do this and close out a come from behind victory like on the road, then talk to me.

Until then Westbrook = second option, Rose = MVP
He has, but agian you homers don't even watch other teams.

And anyways, here's this season's clutch stats. Formatting is going to get all ****ed up because ISH still operates on a 19th century msg board platform

Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


2010-2011 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 04/16/2010

Click on a column header to sort by that stat


CHI Rose 32 123 23 +9 37.3 .375 4.7 .250 15.9 87% 43.2 13% 11.3 9.7 5.8 0.4 1.9

OKC Westbrook 37 187 72 +18 30.2 .398 3.3 .308 20.0 80% 41.2 14% 11.0 6.4 3.3 0.8 1.0

Again, a marginal difference of 2pts when extrapolated over 48 minutes, yet with Westbrook having a higher 3pt%, grabbing more rebounds, more assists, less turnovers in "clutch" situations.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

[themurph]

He has, but agian you homers don't even watch other teams.

And anyways, here's this season's clutch stats. Formatting is going to get all ****ed up because ISH still operates on a 19th century msg board platform

Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


2010-2011 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 04/16/2010

Click on a column header to sort by that stat


CHI Rose 32 123 23 +9 37.3 .375 4.7 .250 15.9 87% 43.2 13% 11.3 9.7 5.8 0.4 1.9

OKC Westbrook 37 187 72 +18 30.2 .398 3.3 .308 20.0 80% 41.2 14% 11.0 6.4 3.3 0.8 1.0

Again, a marginal difference of 2pts when extrapolated over 48 minutes, yet with Westbrook having a higher 3pt%, grabbing more rebounds, more assists, less turnovers in "clutch" situations.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

Listen...It's obvious that you are delusional....Russy is a damn good PG...And the fact that he has raised his standing so high among the elite PG's should be applauded...He will be a top 3 PG in another year...

But surely you realize that the Thunder is not "his" team, right? You do realize that most of the time Durant is taking the big shots at the end of games....Of course Westbrook has a lot to do with the success of his team...But you can't compare him to a kid (Rose) who is the main option for his team...That's just the way it is...No hate...Because really, Westbrook is scary as f*ck when he's on that court...But his responsibilities are not as mammoth as Rose's....There's no refuting this..Unless people just like to argue...

[Go Getter]

He has, but agian you homers don't even watch other teams.

And anyways, here's this season's clutch stats. Formatting is going to get all ****ed up because ISH still operates on a 19th century msg board platform

Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


2010-2011 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 04/16/2010

Click on a column header to sort by that stat


CHI Rose 32 123 23 +9 37.3 .375 4.7 .250 15.9 87% 43.2 13% 11.3 9.7 5.8 0.4 1.9

OKC Westbrook 37 187 72 +18 30.2 .398 3.3 .308 20.0 80% 41.2 14% 11.0 6.4 3.3 0.8 1.0

Again, a marginal difference of 2pts when extrapolated over 48 minutes, yet with Westbrook having a higher 3pt%, grabbing more rebounds, more assists, less turnovers in "clutch" situations.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
:facepalm

[OKCThunderUP]

They're the same players. Equal stats, same ridiculous athleticism. Arguing which is better when neither have won anything noteworthy is stupid.

[Wiirdo]

They are damn close IMO.

[Glide2keva]

They're the same players. Equal stats, same ridiculous athleticism. Arguing which is better when neither have won anything noteworthy is stupid.
One is the main option on his team while the other isn't. That's the difference.

I like Westbrook, I think is a damn good PG and will be one of the best next year and in the top 10 this year.

No hate here. It's just crazy to compare the two when 1. hey are off-season workout partners and 2. Don't have the same responsibilities for thir teams.

Rose doesn't have Durant, because he has to be Durant and Westbrook for his team.

[Go Getter]

They're the same players. Equal stats, same ridiculous athleticism. Arguing which is better when neither have won anything noteworthy is stupid.
Um, Rose shot much better than RW for two full seasons.

He won ROY over RW.
Has to carry a team while RW has a scoring champ on his team.
Rose's team has 53 wins.


They aren't equally athletic, Rose has been clocked faster, and has a higher vert.


Russell has more impressive in game dunks because that stuff motivates him.

[50inchvertical]

:facepalm
Exactly, the more and more you provide something substantive to the arguments, the less and less 1 side has to say.

We're talking head to head, so here's the game I referenced earlier when the Bulls beat OKC in Chicago.

Rose was 3-13 with 11, 9 assists, and 5 tos (Russ was also mundane with 16, 7, and 6tos). Good thing his "no help" teammates chipped in though, Luol Deng giving you 19/8 and Boozer with 29/12, and HE was the one who was making the big shots late in that game (including one from behind the basket, and1!)

I'm not even saying Russell is better neccessarily, you just can't deny the impact of hype and exposure when the difference is so marginal no matter what aspect of their game (and especially stats) that you want to look at, and in fact many go in Russ's favor, and some go WAY in Russ's favor

People are using the same tired tactics to hype up Rose; diminish his teammates that they always do. The irony is, didn't we use to have tons of "KD SUCKS, ITS WESTBROOKS TEAM" post all the time a few weeks back to diminish KD in any KD vs __ argument. Now KD is the reason Russ is good, even though Russ has better #s without him. Hilarious :applause:

And you sure are making a lot out of that 2.8ppg differences reference their roles.

[Go Getter]

Exactly, the more and more you provide something substantive to the arguments, the less and less 1 side has to say.

We're talking head to head, so here's the game I referenced earlier when the Bulls beat OKC in Chicago.

Rose was 3-13 with 11, 9 assists, and 5 tos (Russ was also mundane with 16, 7, and 6tos). Good thing his "no help" teammates chipped in though, Luol Deng giving you 19/8 and Boozer with 29/12, and HE was the one who was making the big shots late in that game (including one from behind the basket, and1!)

I'm not even saying Russell is better neccessarily, you just can't deny the impact of hype and exposure when the difference is so marginal no matter what aspect of their game (and especially stats) that you want to look at, and in fact many go in Russ's favor, and some go WAY in Russ's favor

People are using the same tired tactics to hype up Rose; diminish his teammates that they always do. The irony is, didn't we use to have tons of "KD SUCKS, ITS WESTBROOKS TEAM" post all the time a few weeks back to diminish KD in any KD vs __ argument. Now KD is the reason Russ is good, even though Russ has better #s without him. Hilarious :applause:

I:facepalm @you using stats to measure "clutchness."

I've never diminished Durant. Nor do I diminish Deng or Boozer.

None of the stats are WAY in Russell's favor, lol, you still overlook the fact that Rose is the #1 option for the #1 team in the east while Russell plays with a 30ppg wing scorer.

Nash and CP3 and Deron were and are (sometimes) rated above Rose and they play in small markets as well so your point is moot.

[50inchvertical]

It's a pretty objective, straight forward stat.

You want to get away from advanced stats and just look at basic, surface stats, here
http://i53.tinypic.com/s11b8w.jpg

Give me a second to calculate these stats from the games KD missed (which is going to include his career high btw and a triple double IIRC)

[Notorious D.M.C]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

I bet you never watch any OKC games.

[Meticode]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose
can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha
I know right? That would go along nicely with the mad laker fan you are.

[Notorious D.M.C]

I know a handful of you guys don't watch OKC Thunder but still claim you would rather have Westbrook over Rose. Today is your chance to watch the OKC Thunder and watch Westbrook play.

[50inchvertical]

I know a handful of you guys don't watch OKC Thunder but still claim you would rather have Westbrook over Rose. Today is your chance to watch the OKC Thunder and watch Westbrook play.
right because 1 game proves anything. Even if Russ finishes with a triple double tonight, it's not enough of a sample size compared to watching over the course of a season. And it's not like Rose doesn't have bad games either, in fact post all star break he is falling off compared to prior to.

It's like religion, you're not going to change anybody's mind really no matter how objective and flawless you think your argument is.

Actually I don't even think anybody in this thread said they'd take Russell, other than OP who admitted he was trolling.

[whoartthou]

you're a kobe homer so i wouldn't be surprised if you still believe that the sun revolves aruond the earth.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[whoartthou]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

you sure you want to use that argument as a kobe homer?

[Notorious D.M.C]

right because 1 game proves anything. Even if Russ finishes with a triple double tonight, it's not enough of a sample size compared to watching over the course of a season. And it's not like Rose doesn't have bad games either, in fact post all star break he is falling off compared to prior to.

It's like religion, you're not going to change anybody's mind really no matter how objective and flawless you think your argument is.

Actually I don't even think anybody in this thread said they'd take Russell, other than OP who admitted he was trolling.

I don't mean one game. I mean here is your chance to at least watch him play.

one game is better then not watching him at all and just being a straight hater.

[50inchvertical]

You're right, I feel you, pause. OKC hasn't been on national tv in a while really. That's why there's less Durant and OKC hate posts, and the ones that do exist are only to troll Joyner.

:lol at 2 blown lobs in a row. Russ should have thrown that up for Ibaka

You jusy don't want people to use 1 game because you never know, could be up or down game. But iSH is full of 1 game knee jerks so they will.

[Notorious D.M.C]

You're right, I feel you, pause. OKC hasn't been on national tv in a while really. That's why there's less Durant and OKC hate posts, and the ones that do exist are only to troll Joyner.

:lol at 2 blown lobs in a row. Russ should have thrown that up for Ibaka

You jusy don't want people to use 1 game because you never know, could be up or down game. But iSH is full of 1 game knee jerks so they will.

agreed.

[T-bomb 25]

well, you'd have to let westbrook have at least a season to lead his team. He's not in that situation and won't be any time soon.As long as he's in Sooner land he never will.:roll:

[Christofire]

better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, less points, more assists, more athletic, and because he's in a low market team like oklahoma he doesn't get the recognition he definitely deserves. westbrook > rose

can't wait to see madd bulls fans haha

everyday i wake up having this debate when i see these 2 guys play. I like westbrook more than i do Rose, but i think rose is sligtly better.

Rose is a better shooter from both Mid Range and deep
Rose is stronger, and a better finisher through contact and at the rim in general
Rose has better handle and isn't as TO prone as Westbrook
Rose is more consistent in what he does.
Rose has better handle
Their passing is even
westbrook is faster
westbrook is a better defender
westbrook is a better rebounder

Ultimately it's rose being harder to contain than westbrook that give him the edge. Teams have a tougher time containg rose than they do westbrook. But westbrook is a triple double waiting to happen and is not far behind rose.


ilike i said i favor westbrook more though becaus ei like the way he seeks contact and is not afraid t bang on anyone who gets in his way i also love his fiery attitude he plays with

[chazzy]

It's closer than a lot of people think.. I'd take Rose. But it's funny reading a lot of these posts.. you could use those same arguments to claim Rose is better than Wade since he plays with a better player. Or Rose is better than 3peat Kobe because he played with Shaq. :lol

[Christofire]

It's closer than a lot of people think.. I'd take Rose. But it's funny reading a lot of these posts.. you could use those same arguments to claim Rose is better than Wade since he plays with a better player. Or Rose is better than 3peat Kobe because he played with Shaq. :lol

the gap between the 2 is small.....Westbrook carried the thunder the first 2 and half months of the season when Durant was shooting terribly from the field. He dominated my celtics the game Durant was down. Westbrook has arguably been the best player on the thunder this year. Westbrook is no slouch man. He n more than a half a notch lower than rose

[nitric0]

Ric breaks it down


Jake: Do you think Derrick Rose is the MVP of the 10-11 season and are you a voter

Ric Bucher: Yes and yes.
-----
Blake: why isn't Russell Westbrook getting any MVP buzz he only two less points then derrick rose more assists and more rebounds and a better field goal percentage pleasd tell me why

Ric Bucher: Because statistics don't determine who the better player is.
----
Phil: "Because statistics don't determine who the better player is." THANK YOU! Stats should be a part of the MVP discussion, not the whole discussion itself.

Ric Bucher: No, thank you. To be clear, stats can be very valuable - in gauging a player's improvement, efficiency, etc. But using them to compare players on different teams in different systems with different roles...well, a lot of people (who don't work in or around the NBA) do it. But it doesn't make it right.
----
Brian (NJ):Ok, so "statistics don't determine who the better player is." What does, your eyes? I doubt you have seen every minute both Westbrook and Rose have played this year, right? Seems like statistics are a better measure of a players worth to me.

Ric Bucher: I watch games, both live and on TV. I talk to scouts, players, coaches -- both on those respective players' teams and their opponents'. I study how they're used. I find out what the game plans are and how well particular players execute them. So, do I value all that more than I do a boxscore? Yes, yes, I do.
----
Ric Bucher: This is hard to say without coming off as arrogant, but I'm going to try: the access I have, and have had for nearly 20 years, informs my opinion. You don't have that access. I understand that. Some who do, don't know what to do with it or don't utilize it, for whatever reason. More than anything, I remain teachable. When I write or say something, it's almost never without having checked it out with people in the league whose opinions I trust, and who will tell me when I'm off. I don't cite those people because they're usually multiples, but rest assured my understanding of who is good and who is not, who is doing what and who is not, is not based on my thoughts alone.
----
Jon: You do realize that, unless you have some kind of photographic memory, you actually remember very little from each game you watch? That you only come away with a vague impression, which is most likely over-influenced by a handful of flashy plays? I'm not saying the eyeball test doesn't have a role (especially for assessing defense), but it is MUCH less reliable than statistics for gauging an entire year's worth of performances.

Ric Bucher: Speak for yourself. I take notes. And I go back and review tape. And I talk to people who review tape. Statistics have their place. Assuming they, all by themselves, tell you the story of a player's season is where you've already veered off track. Not only do they not tell you that, they're certainly not *more* reliable.

[Go Getter]

everyday i wake up having this debate when i see these 2 guys play. I like westbrook more than i do Rose, but i think rose is sligtly better.

Rose is a better shooter from both Mid Range and deep
Rose is stronger, and a better finisher through contact and at the rim in general
Rose has better handle and isn't as TO prone as Westbrook
Rose is more consistent in what he does.
Rose has better handle
Their passing is even
westbrook is faster
westbrook is a better defender
westbrook is a better rebounder

Ultimately it's rose being harder to contain than westbrook that give him the edge. Teams have a tougher time containg rose than they do westbrook. But westbrook is a triple double waiting to happen and is not far behind rose.


ilike i said i favor westbrook more though becaus ei like the way he seeks contact and is not afraid t bang on anyone who gets in his way i also love his fiery attitude he plays with

D. Rose was clocked faster, he just uses different speeds whereas RW rarely utilizes gear shift.

[eliteballer]

Westbrook is right there, people are underestimating Rose's bigs.

[Glide2keva]

Westbrook is right there, people are underestimating Rose's bigs.
And people are dismissing their roles on their respective teams.

[Hittin_Shots]

People are using the number 1 guy statement too much also, because you have no idea whether westbrook wud be better or worse as a number 1 guy... what if his numbers skyrocketed as a no.1 who knows, I think he's played a more complete season than durant... So he's not as good because he has a better scorer on his team taking a lot of his shots yet still has similar numbers?

Saying he wouldnt be as good as rose in a similar position doesnt make it true... I think they are quite equal and Rose being the main option on his team gives him an advantage that RW doesnt have but doesnt make him necessarily better.

[Harison]

People are using the number 1 guy statement too much also, because you have no idea whether westbrook wud be better or worse as a number 1 guy... what if his numbers skyrocketed as a no.1 who knows, I think he's played a more complete season than durant... So he's not as good because he has a better scorer on his team taking a lot of his shots yet still has similar numbers?

Exactly, especially since Westbrook had monster games with Durant out. Many were saying at that time "Durant is no longer the best player on his own team", etc. Thats not exactly true, yet 2nd option argument is used against RW. If Rose would be on OKC, he would be 2nd option too. Hell, Wade is 2nd option himself, yet he is clearly better player than Rose.

[Hittin_Shots]

Exactly, especially since Westbrook had monster games with Durant out. Many were saying at that time "Durant is no longer the best player on his own team", etc. Thats not exactly true, yet 2nd option argument is used against RW. If Rose would be on OKC, he would be 2nd option too. Hell, Wade is 2nd option himself, yet he is clearly better player than Rose.

I've found a lot of bulls fans on here change arguments for agenda, the same guys that argue rose is better because he carries a team with not much talent(which is bs) also argue that if two of that not much talent hadnt been injured bulls wud have like half the losses they have or something...

Either he carries the team or he has good team mates... make up ur minds.

[dunksby]

People are using the number 1 guy statement too much also, because you have no idea whether westbrook wud be better or worse as a number 1 guy... what if his numbers skyrocketed as a no.1 who knows, I think he's played a more complete season than durant... So he's not as good because he has a better scorer on his team taking a lot of his shots yet still has similar numbers?

Saying he wouldnt be as good as rose in a similar position doesnt make it true... I think they are quite equal and Rose being the main option on his team gives him an advantage that RW doesnt have but doesnt make him necessarily better.
This

[For_Three]

It's very arguable. Neither is really more athletic than the other.


Yeah, they are pretty much the same. Both are extremely athletic.

[PP34Deuce]

lol Neither are true points, but Rose has definitely showed better PG poise and play.

Westbrook is a very good player,but even I am buying into Rose being a dangerous PG with the way he has handled his team.

[PP34Deuce]

This


Lol everytime i see a OKC game, I see Westbrook taking more shots out of the offense while Durant almost always has a mismatch. Durant may be 1a to 1b

[Tlova]

Lol everytime i see a OKC game, I see Westbrook taking more shots out of the offense while Durant almost always has a mismatch. Durant may be 1a to 1b
Agreed, dude is a horrible decision maker.

[Notorious D.M.C]

If anyone saw last nights OKC/Portland game you will see how Westbrook can make you scratch your head and how he also amazes you. He makes some pretty bone decisions and takes some pretty bad shots that happen to go. He is an incomplete project and should continue to improve but right now I would say Rose is better.

[Pointguard]

People are using the number 1 guy statement too much also, because you have no idea whether westbrook wud be better or worse as a number 1 guy... what if his numbers skyrocketed as a no.1 who knows, I think he's played a more complete season than durant... So he's not as good because he has a better scorer on his team taking a lot of his shots yet still has similar numbers?

Saying he wouldnt be as good as rose in a similar position doesnt make it true... I think they are quite equal and Rose being the main option on his team gives him an advantage that RW doesnt have but doesnt make him necessarily better.

Scouting wise the difference is hughe. When teams play Chicago their priority number one is stop Rose. Their defense is sold on this idea. Some teams like the Knicks, GS, Minny, Pheonix, Clev, Washington, Kings and Toronto they don't have an attention span to focus on a second option. A lot of teams have team concepts as their second defensive option - that is to say lets just zone or pack it down to prevent their penetrators (see Miami). On back to backs this happens a lot. Most Teams don't have great attention spans on defense. They can't pack it down on OKC because of their first option is one of the best shooters in the league and he can penetrate. A guy like Durant creates more holes in a defense than most other types.

Usually, to be in the top ten of scoring as a first option, you need to be super creative or a great scorer from all over the floor. Westbrook isn't like the others in that sense, but I really do believe he would be the exception. I don't think he would be efficient or winning a lot tho. I don't know how long he could keep getting by on explosion and muscle tho. He isn't that resourceful right now to make a lot of adjustments. I could see a versatile creative scorer adapting to the 1st option reality than I could see the explosive athlete. Carrying a team is a heck of a different reality than being the second option. His reckless abandon would have to be toned down a bit in favor a more heady game - finding that balance is never easy. Westbrook is a heck of a player. An amazing athlete that is rare to see.

I think John Wall is even more explosive than Westbrook. I just don't know if he can take hits like Westbrook. In halfcourt you need creativity and range to consistently be effective.

[Bigsmoke]

If anyone saw last nights OKC/Portland game you will see how Westbrook can make you scratch your head and how he also amazes you. He makes some pretty bone decisions and takes some pretty bad shots that happen to go. He is an incomplete project and should continue to improve but right now I would say Rose is better.

yea most like the Thunder will host the Nuggets in April. I think Westbrook is gonna have a field day on 5'11 Ty Lawson.

[liquidrage]

Scouting wise the difference is hughe. When teams play Chicago their priority number one is stop Rose. Their defense is sold on this idea. Some teams like the Knicks, GS, Minny, Pheonix, Clev, Washington, Kings and Toronto they don't have an attention span to focus on a second option. A lot of teams have team concepts as their second defensive option - that is to say lets just zone or pack it down to prevent their penetrators (see Miami). On back to backs this happens a lot. Most Teams don't have great attention spans on defense. They can't pack it down on OKC because of their first option is one of the best shooters in the league and he can penetrate. A guy like Durant creates more holes in a defense than most other types.

Usually, to be in the top ten of scoring as a first option, you need to be super creative or a great scorer from all over the floor. Westbrook isn't like the others in that sense, but I really do believe he would be the exception. I don't think he would be efficient or winning a lot tho. I don't know how long he could keep getting by on explosion and muscle tho. He isn't that resourceful right now to make a lot of adjustments. I could see a versatile creative scorer adapting to the 1st option reality than I could see the explosive athlete. Carrying a team is a heck of a different reality than being the second option. His reckless abandon would have to be toned down a bit in favor a more heady game - finding that balance is never easy. Westbrook is a heck of a player. An amazing athlete that is rare to see.

I think John Wall is even more explosive than Westbrook. I just don't know if he can take hits like Westbrook. In halfcourt you need creativity and range to consistently be effective.

What a bunch of crap.

Durant is great because he can get his shot off better then almost anyone in the game, and is a great shooter. He's not a great penetrator compared to other swing men (but for a 6'11" guy that can shoot it's exception), and he's guarded one on one without a lot of help. Usually by having the other guy try and stick to him like glue.

The "work" teams do against him is to counter how much work OKC does to get him open looks. Something that everyone is forgetting benefits a teams #1 in scoring.

Watch OKC. You don't hardly ever see the other team bringing help over on Durant. It wouldn't make any sense. That's not his game. He shoots too quick. And he's an outside player that penetrates when he's overplayed.

Westbrook on the other hand doesn't have any plays called for him. He either creates his shot or he doesn't. When he breaks down a defender off the dribble the lane is still packed because teams do prepare for that since that one is at least stoppable unlike Durant's quick release. And teams do prepare for that.

Think of it. You're about to play OKC. Do you have two guys out there trying to block Durant's 3? No, you're going to assign the player that can stick with him the best to get up in his grill and have your bigs watch for penetration from Westbrook, while telling your guy that's on Durant/Harden to not drift too far off their man since Westbrook kicks out off of penetration just as much as he takes it to the rim.
For the pick-n-roll you're going to tell your PG to go over the top and not to switch as that's a huge mismatch.

This isn't the NFL. If your center is watching Durant or not it effects nothing since he has no way to impact 95% of Durant's game. There just isn't some magical double team that can stop Durant launching a quick 3 off a screen or taking a 20 foot fadeaway. You're going to tell the guy guarding him to fight through screens, stay up on him, etc. You're going to tell your bigs to be step up on Westbrook once he gets penetration and try and force him to dish instead of taking it to the rim himself.

All this #1, #2, defense attention is a bunch of crap. Teams take like 15 minutes in the walk around talking about these things anyways. If you're scoring 20+ a game teams account for you but there's only so much they can do.

He's a good example for you. It's not like Lebron's scoring avg is up. Or Wade's. Or Bosh's. Even though there's less attention on them. Why? Because 90% of defense is 1 on 1 anyways. Yes, there's help when things break down. Almost every team does the pick and roll and some are better at defending it. Yadda yadda. And it's not just less shots. Lebron's FG% is almost the exact same as last years. Wade's is up from last year a little, but about the same as it was 2 years ago. Bosh is down in FG%. DESPITE all that attention being split by opposing defenses.

But Wade and Lebron stats look completely the same as when they were alone, and Bosh's are actually down (including FG%) a bit not getting the OMGZ #1 DEFENSE ATTENTION AT ALL TIMES.

[Rnbizzle]

What a bunch of crap.

Durant is great because he can get his shot off better then almost anyone in the game, and is a great shooter. He's not a great penetrator compared to other swing men (but for a 6'11" guy that can shoot it's exception), and he's guarded one on one without a lot of help. Usually by having the other guy try and stick to him like glue.

The "work" teams do against him is to counter how much work OKC does to get him open looks. Something that everyone is forgetting benefits a teams #1 in scoring.

Watch OKC. You don't hardly ever see the other team bringing help over on Durant. It wouldn't make any sense. That's not his game. He shoots too quick. And he's an outside player that penetrates when he's overplayed.

Westbrook on the other hand doesn't have any plays called for him. He either creates his shot or he doesn't. When he breaks down a defender off the dribble the lane is still packed because teams do prepare for that since that one is at least stoppable unlike Durant's quick release. And teams do prepare for that.

Think of it. You're about to play OKC. Do you have two guys out there trying to block Durant's 3? No, you're going to assign the player that can stick with him the best to get up in his grill and have your bigs watch for penetration from Westbrook, while telling your guy that's on Durant/Harden to not drift too far off their man since Westbrook kicks out off of penetration just as much as he takes it to the rim.
For the pick-n-roll you're going to tell your PG to go over the top and not to switch as that's a huge mismatch.

This isn't the NFL. If your center is watching Durant or not it effects nothing since he has no way to impact 95% of Durant's game. There just isn't some magical double team that can stop Durant launching a quick 3 off a screen or taking a 20 foot fadeaway. You're going to tell the guy guarding him to fight through screens, stay up on him, etc. You're going to tell your bigs to be step up on Westbrook once he gets penetration and try and force him to dish instead of taking it to the rim himself.

All this #1, #2, defense attention is a bunch of crap. Teams take like 15 minutes in the walk around talking about these things anyways. If you're scoring 20+ a game teams account for you but there's only so much they can do.

He's a good example for you. It's not like Lebron's scoring avg is up. Or Wade's. Or Bosh's. Even though there's less attention on them. Why? Because 90% of defense is 1 on 1 anyways. Yes, there's help when things break down. Almost every team does the pick and roll and some are better at defending it. Yadda yadda.

But Wade and Lebron stats look completely the same as when they were alone, and Bosh's are actually down (including FG%) a bit not getting the OMGZ #1 DEFENSE ATTENTION AT ALL TIMES.

They are proven #1 options, what about Westbrook? :confusedshrug:

[liquidrage]

They are proven #1 options, what about Westbrook? :confusedshrug:

Westbrook proven to be exactly what he is. He's a penetrating PG capable of 20/5/5 (or more) on any night that is a tad turnover prone (one more a game then anyone should want) and inconsistent with his outside shot.

Why on Earth would anyone think that would change on any team? Because the other team's 3 is off guarding a wing man on his current team? Please. Welcome to normal assignment basketball, which 95% of the time all NBA teams are playing. Westbrook could go to Philly in a trade for Jrue and his numbers would look the same. How many times have players changed teams and there numbers drastically changed? Role players, sure. But not solid starters. They typically are what they are no matter where they are. Wins/losses, that would change based on where he went. If you put him on the Lakers they'd go up, but in Golden State they'd go down.

[O BaByShaQ]

stats wise he is ahead by a fraction and I am sure having kd affects that :blah

[Pointguard]

What a bunch of crap.

Durant is great because he can get his shot off better then almost anyone in the game, and is a great shooter. He's not a great penetrator compared to other swing men (but for a 6'11" guy that can shoot it's exception), and he's guarded one on one without a lot of help. Usually by having the other guy try and stick to him like glue.

The "work" teams do against him is to counter how much work OKC does to get him open looks. Something that everyone is forgetting benefits a teams #1 in scoring.

Watch OKC. You don't hardly ever see the other team bringing help over on Durant. It wouldn't make any sense. That's not his game. He shoots too quick. And he's an outside player that penetrates when he's overplayed.
Wow, you don't see Durant put the ball down??? You can' get up on him too tight or he will go around you. You don't see that. Durant can put the ball down. You have to shadow him. You over play the jump shot (which is why he gets so many fouls) with a left or right shadow. Make him dribble to increase his vulnerability.


Westbrook on the other hand doesn't have any plays called for him.
which means what??? He lives off of the chaos of others! Who do you think is creating the chaos? What other top scorer is doing that? If Durant can't put the ball down and is only a perimeter threat then double Westbrook.


He either creates his shot or he doesn't. When he breaks down a defender off the dribble the lane is still packed because teams do prepare for that since that one is at least stoppable unlike Durant's quick release. And teams do prepare for that.

Think of it. You're about to play OKC. Do you have two guys out there trying to block Durant's 3? No, you're going to assign the player that can stick with him the best to get up in his grill and have your bigs watch for penetration from Westbrook, while telling your guy that's on Durant/Harden to not drift too far off their man since Westbrook kicks out off of penetration just as much as he takes it to the rim.
For the pick-n-roll you're going to tell your PG to go over the top and not to switch as that's a huge mismatch. You don't play to block Durant. Your whole premise is messed up because you are thinking at a far too basic of level for this type of talent. You make it uncomfortable for Durant. Make him move his feet and dribble in the direction of another player.



This isn't the NFL. If your center is watching Durant or not it effects nothing since he has no way to impact 95% of Durant's game. There just isn't some magical double team that can stop Durant launching a quick 3 off a screen or taking a 20 foot fadeaway. You're going to tell the guy guarding him to fight through screens, stay up on him, etc. You're going to tell your bigs to be step up on Westbrook once he gets penetration and try and force him to dish instead of taking it to the rim himself.
You usually don't shadow with a big. Read above. You shadow with the closest perimeter player. The shifts make it easier for an explosive penetrator. You really should watch college ball because the defense is a bit simpler and you see the defensive intentions a lot better. You rarely see coaches getting upset for a blown assignment on Westbrook, because that players is almost always compromised in the overall defensive schemes.


All this #1, #2, defense attention is a bunch of crap. Teams take like 15 minutes in the walk around talking about these things anyways. If you're scoring 20+ a game teams account for you but there's only so much they can do.

He's a good example for you. It's not like Lebron's scoring avg is up. Or Wade's. Or Bosh's. Even though there's less attention on them. Why? Because 90% of defense is 1 on 1 anyways. Yes, there's help when things break down. Almost every team does the pick and roll and some are better at defending it. Yadda yadda. And it's not just less shots. Lebron's FG% is almost the exact same as last years. Wade's is up from last year a little, but about the same as it was 2 years ago. Bosh is down in FG%. DESPITE all that attention being split by opposing defenses.

But Wade and Lebron stats look completely the same as when they were alone, and Bosh's are actually down (including FG%) a bit not getting the OMGZ #1 DEFENSE ATTENTION AT ALL TIMES.

You are talking about proven number 1's that have the same strengths and weaknesses. Like I said earlier, they prefer to drive so the defense makes them jump shooters. The defensive scheme is to make them jump shooters. The defensive team is coached to limit perimeter to paint drives. The second defender is already in their path toward the hoop. The secondary defender in Durant's case should be moving toward Durant. This is why Dirk's teams have always done well and why Durant's teams will always do well. It creates a lot of chaos. But the biggest problem in Miami is the outside guys trying to get to the paint without much movement off the ball. No way you can watch them and tell me that switching mentality from #1 to #2 is easy. Nor is it the other way around.

I see that you think it futile to go after perimeter domination but the second you concede, you lost.

[The_Yearning]

If Westbrook is better than Rose, then why why doesn't he have OKC in contention for the best record in the league when he plays alongside another player who is virtually better than him in Kevin Durant?

Does Derrick Rose have a teammate that is even in Durant's stratosphere? Does Derrick Rose shoot 10+ free throws every game like Westbrook? Who has more pressure?

Give D. Rose the MVP and don't ever compare these two players again.

Just like when people use to compare Vince Carter/T-Mac to Kobe...don't ever compare these two players again.

[gorbo]

do you also still believe in the tooth fairy

[DRose1899]

Both have pretty high level of cojones though, mad clutch potential.

[liquidrage]

Wow, you don't see Durant put the ball down??? You can' get up on him too tight or he will go around you. You don't see that. Durant can put the ball down. You have to shadow him. You over play the jump shot (which is why he gets so many fouls) with a left or right shadow. Make him dribble to increase his vulnerability.

Almost every defense he sees is up in his grill. So you might want to email all the NBA coaches and tell them they're doing it wrong. It's also why OKC runs so many screens and double screens for him.


which means what??? He lives off of the chaos of others! Who do you think is creating the chaos?

That he gets most of his points beating his man 1 on 1 and in transition.


What other top scorer is doing that? If Durant can't put the ball down and is only a perimeter threat then double Westbrook.

WTF are you talking about? No one doubles on the perimeter except off a pick and roll and that's a trap and that's temporary.


You don't play to block Durant. You whole premise is messed up because you are thinking at a far too basic of level for this type of talent. You make it uncomfortable for Durant. Make him move his feet and dribble in the direction of another player.

If you're not in his grill his going to shoot and not put it down on the floor. Have you ever even seen the dude play?



You usually don't shadow with a big. Read above. You shadow with the closest perimeter player. The shifts make it easier for an explosive penetrator. You really should watch college ball because the defense is a bit simpler and you see the defensive intentions a lot better. You rarely see coaches getting upset for a blown assignment on Westbrook, because that players is almost always compromised but the overall defensive schemes.


You are about ****ing retarded. Keven Durant leads the NBA in attempts outside of 16. Westbrook is guarded one on one just like Durant is. This isn't college where teams will play a true zone or a match up zone. The NBA is almost all man to man defense on the perimeter. And no one shoots more from outside then Durant. And if you actually saw him play a huge percentage of those shots are catch and release.

Durant leads the league in shot attempts outside of 16 feet, Durant is like 80th at attempts at the rim. Durant takes 2x as many shots outside of 16 feet then he does inside. Durant is a shooter.

Westbrook is 5th in the league at attempts at the rim. Westbrook penetrates. That's what he does.

Who is creating chaos again? Seriously, watch the Thunder play a few times before commenting more. Westbrook is the one that breaks down defenses. Durant is the one that can get his shot off against nearly anyone. Did you see Artest keep him in check most of last year against the Lakers? Was Artest playing off him keeping him from the basket? No, he was in his face. And most teams do the same thing because Durant is a shooter 1st and foremost.

Westbrook gets his points from creating his own shot by beating his man one on one and either doing a short pull up jumper (he's Top 10 in 10-15 foot shots as well) or taking it to the rim. Not because 4 people are focused on Durant. Durant is one of the best if not the best outside shooters in the game that can create his own shot and has a quick release. They compliment each other very well on the team since they do things differently and don't get in each others way. But neither one would need the other one to do what they do. And that should be blatantly obvious if you actually watched them a few times and saw what they do.

Don't act like the PG (or other defender) Russ takes off the dribble is cheating on Kevin Durant as if he would be able to get over there and interfere with KD's shot. And don't act like the bigs are all distracted when Russ gets into the lane because there dreaming of running out to 18 feet and blocking KD's shot (that he typically releases in like .2 seconds). Which is basically what you're trying to say. That KD creates chaos. How? By being an outside shooter that doesn't put the ball on the floor much, and by taking most his shots either instantly (especially if it's off a screen) or by performing a step back? Get real.

[2010splash]

Westbrook is a terrible defender. How a third year player can be living off reputation like this is unbelievable. Have you guys actually watched Westbrick play defense this year? It's not pretty at all. Look beyond a player's steals per game average.

Rose on the other hand has shut down Deron and Paul.

[hkfosho]

"I still believe russell westbrook > Rose"'

wait... when was he EVER better than Rose?

[OKCThunderUP]

If Westbrook is better than Rose, then why why doesn't he have OKC in contention for the best record in the league when he plays alongside another player who is virtually better than him in Kevin Durant?

Because the Bulls have the league's 3rd easiest schedule playing in a ridiculously easy conference while Oklahoma City has the league's 8th most difficult schedule in a very good conference.


Does Derrick Rose shoot 10+ free throws every game like Westbrook? Who has more pressure?

Rose averages 6 FTA, Westbrook 8. Yawn.

[OKCThunderUP]

Westbrook is a terrible defender. How a third year player can be living off reputation like this is unbelievable. Have you guys actually watched Westbrick play defense this year? It's not pretty at all. Look beyond a player's steals per game average.

Rose on the other hand has shut down Deron and Paul.

You're delusional if you think Rose's defense can hold a candle to Westbrook's. Rose plays the worst defense on his team. Westbrook isn't an elite defender but he's slightly above average.

[PP34Deuce]

They both play Iverson defense.....go for the pretty steal or block, not much else.

Neither has an edge.

And people will be upset with this comparison but Westbrook plays exactly like Steve Francis. I do think Westbrook shows ability to have the game slowdown for him that guy gets out of control 5 times a game.

[Rnbizzle]

The 2 posters above me are both idiots.

Rose and Westbrook are both quality defenders. One of them is not a whole lot better thne the other, how on earth would the bulls be #1 defensive team if Rose is THAT bad..

[hkfosho]

Rose averages 6 FT a game... Westbrook averages 8... that's 2 extra points rose can add to his average...

26ppg on 7.8 apg? Those are some godly numbers for a PG don't ya think?

[Crown&Coke]

Westbrook is my dude, he is amazing and he will be in the convo of best pg in the League from now until he retires, but Rose has been carrying his team to the playoffs since his rookie year, that gives him a distinct advantage, even in the weaker east.

Rose by a hair right now, next year its gonna be a toss up imo. Like how some argued CP3 while other said DWill a couple years ago. These two studs are so awesome, I am amazed everytime I get to watch them.

Westbrook's 3 pt shooting has improved dramatically, and he is not only helping his team win, he is orchestrating the whole show. Never thought he would be able to, considering he never played point. But Rose has been doing it for years, Russell seems to just have realized how good he can be last year.

[Crown&Coke]

You're delusional if you think Rose's defense can hold a candle to Westbrook's. Rose plays the worst defense on his team. Westbrook isn't an elite defender but he's slightly above average.

Westbrook is pretty much as elite as you can get from the pg spot who is not a defensive specialist. Rose isn't on Westbrook's level defensively but he is no slouch. I aint seen anyone light him up

[Glide2keva]

Westbrook is pretty much as elite as you can get from the pg spot who is not a defensive specialist. Rose isn't on Westbrook's level defensively but he is no slouch. I aint seen anyone light him up
No one has lit him up and he's upped his steals and blocks, and his on ball defense is pretty solid.

Now if he can just lean to defend the P&R, he'll be alright.

[burnsy87]

Retarded. It's basketball. Teams double outside the post almost never. Rose gets trapped off the pick-n-roll. That's it.

The closest you'll see to a true double on a perimeter player is Florida vs BYU where they literally doubled Jimmer a few times in the first half the other night.



Read this:
http://archive.chicagobreakingsports.com/2011/02/thibodeau-disputes-bulls-difficulty-with-warriors-defense.html

If Rose (or any pg) is outside and a teammate comes over to set a pick, there's now 2 defenders there and against Rose sometimes teams decide to play it where both defenders trap Rose leaving the player setting the pick open.

Here's a quote from Rose from that same game:


So the only thing that's real about it is the double team on the trap off a pick-n-roll. WOW!

But don't act like he's just sitting there outside and two defenders come over to him. It's the NBA, that does not happen. Teams like to trap him off the pick-n-roll and he's far from the only PG to get that treatment though he probably sees that on a regular basis.


This 1st option/second option business is just crap. The amount of shots you get to take effects your scoring. The focus of the other team's D? Not so much since teams are very limited in what they can do. Think back to all the games with Lebron him Cleveland where the other team guarded him with 2 guys? Remember Jordan shooting over Ehlo and Mark Price? Rose is guarded by one person all game. Off the pick-n-roll he gets trapped. That's it.

Rose does not just get trapped off the pick and roll. Just about every game (mostly in the 4th) teams start cutting him off right after he crosses halfcourt and they trap him to force the ball out of his hands. Please don't act like you know what you are talking about if you don't watch the games.

He gets this half midcourt double teams EVERY SINGLE GAME for an extended period of time. It isn't one or two posessions, it is for 1 or 2 quarters.

[burnsy87]

Westbrook is pretty much as elite as you can get from the pg spot who is not a defensive specialist. Rose isn't on Westbrook's level defensively but he is no slouch. I aint seen anyone light him up

Anyone who says Rose is horrible at defense hasn't really watched him play all year. He has shut down all of the elite point guards.

[liquidrage]

Rose does not just get trapped off the pick and roll. Just about every game (mostly in the 4th) teams start cutting him off right after he crosses halfcourt and they trap him to force the ball out of his hands. Please don't act like you know what you are talking about if you don't watch the games.

He gets this half midcourt double teams EVERY SINGLE GAME for an extended period of time. It isn't one or two posessions, it is for 1 or 2 quarters.


LOL idiot. He's been trapped a few times all year. And again, it's a trap. He passes out of it, teams go back to their normal D, and then in the half court offense they never do that again. Ass much homer. It's the NBA. You can't double outside in a halfcourt offense. It would be free points for the other team.

[Pointguard]

Almost every defense he sees is up in his grill. So you might want to email all the NBA coaches and tell them they're doing it wrong. It's also why OKC runs so many screens and double screens for him. It happens you just don't have the eyes to see it.


That he gets most of his points beating his man 1 on 1 and in transition. Well, that too but a lot of times they are off balance because of shifts and what have you. Westbrook is not like other scoring guards who have a wealth of moves and deception techniques. He just explodes to the rim and most of the time he has a great momentum toward the basket that few other players get. When you are the man you rarely get a chance to build up that type of momentum to the basket.



WTF are you talking about? No one doubles on the perimeter except off a pick and roll and that's a trap and that's temporary.

If you don't know what shadows and shifts mean then just say so. Its the way you position yourself between the ball handler and your player. At some point you commit to the handler.


If you're not in his grill his going to shoot and not put it down on the floor. Have you ever even seen the dude play?

ROFL, wow, you are just hick stupid. I'm telling you over and over. They are up on him with the intention to have him put the ball down and dribble into traffic. Crowd him so that he won't get that shot off quickly.

Originally Posted by Pointguard
Durant can put the ball down. You have to shadow him. You over play the jump shot (which is why he gets so many fouls) with a left or right shadow. Make him dribble to increase his vulnerability.



You are about ****ing retarded.
Hey, hey, hey. I'm trying to explain defensive concepts to you despite the fact that you never played organized ball. Don't get it wrong, you're the stupid one in this conversation.


Keven Durant leads the NBA in attempts outside of 16. Westbrook is guarded one on one just like Durant is. This isn't college where teams will play a true zone or a match up zone. The NBA is almost all man to man defense on the perimeter. And no one shoots more from outside then Durant. And if you actually saw him play a huge percentage of those shots are catch and release.
He's comfortable doing that so you get him out of his comfort zone. That's what defenses do. Overplay his sweet spots. Overplay the jump shot. But you can't overplay him without a backup plan. His release point is too high for people guarding him. So they attempt to make him put it down. Even if you can't do it you must try. An extremely small amount of shots get blocked in the NBA. If he puts the ball down he is volunerable to a second defender, that is shadowing.


Westbrook is 5th in the league at attempts at the rim. Westbrook penetrates. That's what he does.
Westbrook doesn't have deft moves, deception or the best handle. Nor are they saying he is the most explosive guard ever. But he does have help in spreading the floor. And what player in the league is the most deadly from the outside? If they can pack the defenses down on Lebron and Wade who were experts at getting to the rim don't you think they could do the same with one player who doesn't have a lot of moves? If you have a good inside player who is your perfect compliment? Durant compliments a hard slasher like crazy. And he would be a better compliment to either Wade or Lebron then they currently are now to each other.



Westbrook gets his points from creating his own shot by beating his man one on one and either doing a short pull up jumper (he's Top 10 in 10-15 foot shots as well) or taking it to the rim. Not because 4 people are focused on Durant. Durant is one of the best if not the best outside shooters in the game that can create his own shot and has a quick release. They compliment each other very well on the team since they do things differently and don't get in each others way. But neither one would need the other one to do what they do. And that should be blatantly obvious if you actually watched them a few times and saw what they do. Robin always looks good when batman is around.


Don't act like the PG (or other defender) Russ takes off the dribble is cheating on Kevin Durant as if he would be able to get over there and interfere with KD's shot. And don't act like the bigs are all distracted when Russ gets into the lane because there dreaming of running out to 18 feet and blocking KD's shot (that he typically releases in like .2 seconds). Which is basically what you're trying to say. That KD creates chaos. How?

By being an outside shooter that doesn't put the ball on the floor much, and by taking most his shots either instantly (especially if it's off a screen) or by performing a step back? Get real.
Every defense has priorities based on what the other team is trying to do. You said your self that Westbrook gets his points on non designed plays. That's a great convenience. You are crazy if you think Russ is getting all of those dunks being the man. A lot of those dunks are in half court sets and they aren't even getting a body on him. He's explosive like crazy, but when you are the man they seriously be getting in your way when you are trying to get that crazy momentum going. It rare to see players get as much momentum going as Russell does on his thunderous forays to the hoop. A lot of it is because of chaos created by Durant.

[Crown&Coke]

Anyone who says Rose is horrible at defense hasn't really watched him play all year. He has shut down all of the elite point guards.

And he is a gamer, he shows up when it matters, you can't forget how important that is for a guy who puts his pride on the line and man up on defense.

I should have said he isn't on Westbrook's defensive level "yet" because Rose has it in him and he is a willing student, I think he is still learning to use that frame and agility to his advantage defensively. And with Tibs showing him a thing or two... oh my that is a dangerous combination for the balance of the league to try and contain.

Westbrook has been a defensive ace since high school, he's kind of the opposite of Rose in that respect. He is learning how to run a team and still get his shots, while Rose has been doing that since H.S.

If you got either the 1st or 2nd pick with these two, you can't possibly lose either way, straight up

[burnsy87]

LOL idiot. He's been trapped a few times all year. And again, it's a trap. He passes out of it, teams go back to their normal D, and then in the half court offense they never do that again. Ass much homer. It's the NBA. You can't double outside in a halfcourt offense. It would be free points for the other team.

A few times all year? Watch the game tonight. If he is having a decent game, I guarantee he will be cut off by a double team at halfcourt and they will force the ball out of his hands.

You say it isn't a double team...but 2 people are on him, forcing him to pass. It is the same thing that happens with a double team in the post. When that player kicks it out, the person who was doubling goes back towards his own guy. There is no such thing as an actual double team, where 2 players guard one guy and leave the other guy wide open. How ****ing stupid are you?

It isn't like another player is just covering him for a second while the original defender recovers from the pick. There are 2 people STAYING on him until he passes. That is a double team, if you don't think it is, then you are a complete moron.

[jasonresno]

Answer this question in one word:

Would Russel Westbrooks stats stay this good OR GET BETTER if Kevin Durant was Luol Deng instead?

Answer this question in one word:

Would Derrick Rose stats stay this good OR GET BETTER if Luol Deng was Kevin Durant?

Exactly.

[cumaethor]

I believe Westbrook <> Rose

Rose is better in some aspects of the game, Westbrook in others. Neither of them is significantly superior to other. Only way to determine who is better would be if they would play on the same team.

[jasonresno]

I believe Westbrook <> Rose

Rose is better in some aspects of the game, Westbrook in others. Neither of them is significantly superior to other. Only way to determine who is better would be if they would play on the same team.
Same team or at least same circumstance.

[DRose1899]

Answer this question in one word:

Would Russel Westbrooks stats stay this good OR GET BETTER if Kevin Durant was Luol Deng instead?

Answer this question in one word:

Would Derrick Rose stats stay this good OR GET BETTER if Luol Deng was Kevin Durant?

Exactly.
Dumb analogy :facepalm

Deng isn't too shabby compared to KD, n Rose still have Boozer, hell even Korver to help his stat looks nice.

[burnsy87]

And he is a gamer, he shows up when it matters, you can't forget how important that is for a guy who puts his pride on the line and man up on defense.

I should have said he isn't on Westbrook's defensive level "yet" because Rose has it in him and he is a willing student, I think he is still learning to use that frame and agility to his advantage defensively. And with Tibs showing him a thing or two... oh my that is a dangerous combination for the balance of the league to try and contain.

Westbrook has been a defensive ace since high school, he's kind of the opposite of Rose in that respect. He is learning how to run a team and still get his shots, while Rose has been doing that since H.S.

If you got either the 1st or 2nd pick with these two, you can't possibly lose either way, straight up

Yeah I'm not saying Westbrook isn't a better defender than Rose. I just think it is funny that there are people that clearly haven't watched the kid play this year. They are just assuming he is still a below average defender.

[liquidrage]

It happens you just don't have the eyes to see it.
Well, that too but a lot of times they are off balance because of shifts and what have you. Westbrook is not like other scoring guards who have a wealth of moves and deception techniques. He just explodes to the rim and most of the time he has a great momentum toward the basket that few other players get. When you are the man you rarely get a chance to build up that type of momentum to the basket.

He's got the ball at the 3 point line, the opposing PG is in front of him, the paint is full of normal defenders, and he beats his man off the dribble and pulls up for a 12 footer.

What the hell does being the man or not being the man have to do with that? He did it just fine with Durant was out. He does it just fine with Durant out of the game since they both play about 8 of their minutes a night without both on the floor since Durant stays on with the first subs in the first half.




If you don't know what shadows and shifts mean then just say so. Its the way you position yourself between the ball handler and your player. At some point you commit to the handler.

ROFL, wow, you are just hick stupid. I'm telling you over and over. They are up on him with the intention to have him put the ball down and dribble into traffic. Crowd him so that he won't get that shot off quickly.



They are up on him because they'd rather he drive then get a free look. No shit.



Hey, hey, hey. I'm trying to explain defensive concepts to you despite the fact that you never played organized ball. Don't get it wrong, you're the stupid one in this conversation.


The only thing you've explained is that you have no clue what you're talking about.


Westbrook doesn't have deft moves, deception or the best handle. Nor are they saying he is the most explosive guard ever. But he does have help in spreading the floor. And what player in the league is the most deadly from the outside? If they can pack the defenses down on Lebron and Wade who were experts at getting to the rim don't you think they could do the same with one player who doesn't have a lot of moves? If you have a good inside player who is your perfect compliment? Durant compliments a hard slasher like crazy. And he would be a better compliment to either Wade or Lebron then they currently are now to each other.

It's funny. For no moves the guy WHO IS RESPONSIBLE TO STAY IN FRONT OF HIM SUCKS AT DOING IT. Thank God for Durant, eh?




Robin always looks good when batman is around.


Which is why Russ avg'd 30 in the games without Durant? God damn Durant is good. He was spreading the floor and "creating chaos" from the bench.


Every defense has priorities based on what the other team is trying to do.

No shit. That doesn't mean there's a ton they can do to take out an outside shooter. Either you have Artest or your don't. For Westbrook, either you have the bigs that can handle him when he gets to the paint or you don't. That's 90% of it. The other things that teams can do is great rotations (effects Westbrook more then Durant since Westbrook penetrates 4x as much as Durant), ways to play the pick and roll (like Howard who is awesome at it), etc...



You said your self that Westbrook gets his points on non designed plays. That's a great convenience. You are crazy if you think Russ is getting all of those dunks being the man.

You're a complete ****ing retard thinking he wouldn't. He does when Durant isn't on the floor. He did when Durant was out. And you haven't even made one logical argument as to how Durant helps create space for Russell.


A lot of those dunks are in half court sets and they aren't even getting a body on him. He's explosive like crazy, but when you are the man they seriously be getting in your way when you are trying to get that crazy momentum going. It rare to see players get as much momentum going as Russell does on his thunderous forays to the hoop. A lot of it is because of chaos created by Durant.

What chaos? THE ONE MAN GUARDING HIM.

I'd say this. Westbrook get's Durant more open looks then Durant clears the lane for Westbrook. Why? Opposing defenses don't throw a lot at Durant. Just one guy. There is no help defender on him. His game doesn't warrant him.

Btw, Lebron's shots at the rim are just as high as ever and Wade's are up. Seems they're getting to the rim just fine this year.


You're a ****ing idiot.

[PP34Deuce]

The 2 posters above me are both idiots.

Rose and Westbrook are both quality defenders. One of them is not a whole lot better thne the other, how on earth would the bulls be #1 defensive team if Rose is THAT bad..

Whether u r a grown man or little kid, calling people idiots doesnt make u look too good man.

Rose is not a very good defender,hesnot bad neither is westbrook. they can get steals and blocks...They cant play traditional consistent defense yet

[magnax1]

Westbrook is actually quite a terrible passer. Assists is generally among the more accurate stats, but I have no idea how he gets 8 assists a game. He is more athletic then Rose, no doubt, and he can get to the basket just as easily, maybe easier. However, he's not the finisher, or the shooter that Rose is. I'd pretty much be just as afraid as Westbrook just because he can get to the basket so easily, and I think he's settling for jumpshots a bit too easy for how talented he is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he can push himself harder and get to the basket more often in the playoffs.
Either way, Rose is better, not by a huge amount, but he's a better passer and while he can't get open much more easily, he makes it count more once he does.

[jasonresno]

Dumb analogy :facepalm

Deng isn't too shabby compared to KD, n Rose still have Boozer, hell even Korver to help his stat looks nice.
Korver is a bench player and Boozer has missed 2 months of basketball. And are you REALLY putting Deng/KD in the same bracket of talent/output?

Next.

[burnsy87]

Westbrook is actually quite a terrible passer. Assists is generally among the more accurate stats, but I have no idea how he gets 8 assists a game. He is more athletic then Rose, no doubt, and he can get to the basket just as easily, maybe easier. However, he's not the finisher, or the shooter that Rose is. I'd pretty much be just as afraid as Westbrook just because he can get to the basket so easily, and I think he's settling for jumpshots a bit too easy for how talented he is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he can push himself harder and get to the basket more often in the playoffs.
Either way, Rose is better, not by a huge amount, but he's a better passer and while he can't get open much more easily, he makes it count more once he does.


Rose is the most athletic point guard to ever play the game. He is an absolute freak of nature for the position.

[Glide2keva]

Korver is a bench player and Boozer has missed 2 months of basketball. And are you REALLY putting Deng/KD in the same bracket of talent/output?

Next.
Deng is quite capable of leading the league in scoring, didn't you get the memo?

:rolleyes:

[jasonresno]

Deng is quite capable of leading the league in scoring, didn't you get the memo?

:rolleyes:
I love how suddenly the Bulls are the most talented team in the NBA when people try to downplay Rose.

[liquidrage]

Westbrook is actually quite a terrible passer. Assists is generally among the more accurate stats, but I have no idea how he gets 8 assists a game. He is more athletic then Rose, no doubt, and he can get to the basket just as easily, maybe easier. However, he's not the finisher, or the shooter that Rose is. I'd pretty much be just as afraid as Westbrook just because he can get to the basket so easily, and I think he's settling for jumpshots a bit too easy for how talented he is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he can push himself harder and get to the basket more often in the playoffs.
Either way, Rose is better, not by a huge amount, but he's a better passer and while he can't get open much more easily, he makes it count more once he does.

This shit again.

Again, Westbrook shoots a higher % at the rim then Rose does. That's 3 feet and under.
Westbrook has more assists at the rim the Rose does.

Both of these are true for the second year in a row.

[DRose1899]

Korver is a bench player and Boozer has missed 2 months of basketball. And are you REALLY putting Deng/KD in the same bracket of talent/output?

Next.
U gonna act like Westbrook not playing with 3 offensive pushover in starting line-up even with KD?
And Rose have more balanced support even from the bench?

Sorry sir, ur analogy just can be used in both ways.

Westbrook and Rose stand in same Magnitude. Its dumb to say either one is marginally better.

[jasonresno]

U gonna act like Westbrook not playing with 3 offensive pushover in starting line-up even with KD?
And Rose have more balanced support even from the bench?

Sorry sir, ur analogy just can be used in both ways.

Westbrook and Rose stand in same Magnitude.
Do you really want to talk about offensive pushovers in the starting lineup?

http://athletetattoodatabase.com/img/wiki_up/keith.bogans1.jpg
^4 PPG, has started every game this year.

http://www.chitownlowdown.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kurt_thomas_250_081027.jpg
^For 30+ games.

[liquidrage]

I love how suddenly the Bulls are the most talented team in the NBA when people try to downplay Rose.

Just like the supporting cast is awesome when you're ranking the Top Frontcourts in the league. But suck when you're talking about how good Rose is.
The Bulls still play in the East. And though it's gotten better, you'd likely be neck and neck with the Thunder in the West and the MVP talk wouldn't exist.

Just admit it. Rose is good, but with the MVP hype slightly overrated because he isn't a Top 5 player yet. He's probably slightly better then Westbrook, but not a ton. His supporting cast is pretty good as well.

And if the Bulls bow out in Rnd 1 all this "we're good" crap won't matter. And if the Thunder bow out in Rnd 1 Durant and Westbrook need to suck on some eggs this offseason and figure it out.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Whether u r a grown man or little kid, calling people idiots doesnt make u look too good man.

Rose is not a very good defender,hesnot bad neither is westbrook. they can get steals and blocks...They cant play traditional consistent defense yet

There defense is more then adequate right now. Rose and Westbrook are fine on-ball defenders. Much more often than not, I have seen Rose completely disrupt or stop an opponent's shot / play on a 1 on 1 situation. What they still need work on is the pick and roll defense and timing / lanes for blocking. But under Scott and Thibodeau, I have no doubt they will become excellent defenders in the future.

[jasonresno]

Just like the supporting cast is awesome when you're ranking the Top Frontcourts in the league. But suck when you're talking about how good Rose is.
The Bulls still play in the East. And though it's gotten better, you'd likely be neck and neck with the Thunder in the West and the MVP talk wouldn't exist.

Just admit it. Rose is good, but with the MVP hype slightly overrated because he isn't a Top 5 player yet. He's probably slightly better then Westbrook, but not a ton. His supporting cast is pretty good as well.

And if the Bulls bow out in Rnd 1 all this "we're good" crap won't matter. And if the Thunder bow out in Rnd 1 Durant and Westbrook need to suck on some eggs this offseason and figure it out.

The Bulls do have one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. But the two towers of that frontcourt have combined to miss 3 months of basketball. That's why Rose gets the love he gets. EDIT: And the East is absolutely good enough to keep up with the West. Boston/Miami/Orlando/Chicago are all good to great teams.

And Westbrook has a great supporting cast as well. In fact the talent level is probably equal, all things considered, when comparing the two teams.

Rose is a franchise player and a top 10 in the league. Where's Westbrook? Who in the NBA does a Rose-Westbrook swap?

[DRose1899]

This shit again.

Again, Westbrook shoots a higher % at the rim then Rose does. That's 3 feet and under.
Westbrook has more assists at the rim the Rose does.

Both of these are true for the second year in a row.
Another clueless one. :facepalm

Rose have 200+ more FGA n only about .6 different with Wesbrook FG%
And Wesbrook 3PT attempt is 4x less than Derrick.

@Jason Reno.
Just imagine Westbrook situation then, granted its just since ASB, but Westbrook assist averages not fluctuated from that.

[liquidrage]

The Bulls do have one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. But the two towers of that frontcourt have combined to miss 3 months of basketball. That's why Rose gets the love he gets. EDIT: And the East is absolutely good enough to keep up with the West. Boston/Miami/Orlando/Chicago are all good to great teams.

And Westbrook has a great supporting cast as well. In fact the talent level is probably equal, all things considered, when comparing the two teams.

Rose is a franchise player and a top 10 in the league. Where's Westbrook? Who in the NBA does a Rose-Westbrook swap?

There is no doubt the West is still better and takes away a couple of wins a year playing the harder schedule night in and night out.

It has nothing to do with the teams at the top that cancel each other out. It has to do with playing extra games against Memphis and Houston and other decent teams vs Indy or the Pistons and the like.

As to who would do the swap, I would think most would take Rose. I rate Rose slightly higher then Westbrook. I would think the only teams that would take Westrbook over Rose have a clearly established #1 as Rose is more ball dominant and doesn't really do anything better then Westbrook except score (and only slightly at that). But overall, I think more GM's would prefer Rose. What that has to do with what I wrote though, I'm not sure.

[cumaethor]

Only reason this many rose threads are popping out is that people are intimidated by youngest MVP ever, or they feel he doesn't deserve to be youngest MVP ever.

MVP = best player on one of the best teams...

So I don't see any problems. Rose might not be best MVP of all time, but if he wins it would't be undeserved. That if for sure.

[liquidrage]

Another clueless one. :facepalm

Rose have 200+ more FGA n only about .6 different with Wesbrook FG%
And Wesbrook 3PT attempt is 4x less than Derrick.


Listen ass munch. It was in response to the "at the rim" bullcrap that was written by someone else.

Russell has more attempts at the rim (3 feet and under) then Rose, and shoots a higher % there. Russell also has more assists at the rim. This is all true 2 years in a row now.

That Rose shoots more is NO FREAKING DUH. I didn't touch on that at all in the post you responded too though.

[burnsy87]

Listen ass munch. It was in response to the "at the rim" bullcrap that was written by someone else.

Russell has more attempts at the rim (3 feet and under) then Rose, and shoots a higher % there. Russell also has more assists at the rim. This is all true 2 years in a row now.

That Rose shoots more is NO FREAKING DUH. I didn't touch on that at all in the post you responded too though.

You never did clarify what a real double team is...I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[liquidrage]

You never did clarify what a real double team is...I'd love to hear what you have to say.

It's obviously two defenders on one offensive player. But it almost always happens as a trap to get the ball out of someone's hand. And almost never by running a second defender over for no reason.

In the post it's different. Down low people get doubled all the time with the help defender leaving his assignment and coming over. Up top that almost never happens as there is too much spacing and coming over and getting back takes too long. But that's why it can and does happen off the pick since there's already 2 and 2 in the same area.

What doesn't count to me is trapping off the pick-n-roll as that happens to a LOT of players, not just the good ones. Some teams trap more then other, some players get trapped more then others, sometimes the trap just happens because both players went with the ball.

A double team is not a big coming over to offer help after penetration. That happens all the time too. It's a rotation. Some teams make more effort to be away or to work out rotations then others, especially against guards like Rose or Westbrook that penetrate a lot. But still, that's not a double team.

I don't care how good Rose is. He's not going to draw extra defender on the outside except rarely. It's not that a team has never taken an extra defender and said "get the ball out of his hands". They have. They do it occasionally to all good players. But my god, a vast majority of the time, a huge vast majority of the time, he's got one dude in front of him to beat, and then whatever rotates in the paint to him. Just like Westbrook and other players that penetrate a lot.

[burnsy87]

It's obviously two defenders on one offensive player. But it almost always happens as a trap to get the ball out of someone's hand. And almost never by running a second defender over for no reason.

In the post it's different. Down low people get doubled all the time with the help defender leaving his assignment and coming over. Up top that almost never happens as there is too much spacing and coming over and getting back takes too long. But that's why it can and does happen off the pick since there's already 2 and 2 in the same area.

What doesn't count to me is trapping off the pick-n-roll as that happens to a LOT of players, not just the good ones. Some teams trap more then other, some players get trapped more then others, sometimes the trap just happens because both players went with the ball.

A double team is not a big coming over to offer help after penetration. That happens all the time too. It's a rotation. Some teams make more effort to be away or to work out rotations then others, especially against guards like Rose or Westbrook that penetrate a lot. But still, that's not a double team.

I don't care how good Rose is. He's not going to draw extra defender on the outside except rarely. It's not that a team has never taken an extra defender and said "get the ball out of his hands". They have. They do it occasionally to all good players. But my god, a vast majority of the time, a huge vast majority of the time, he's got one dude in front of him to beat, and then whatever rotates in the paint to him. Just like Westbrook and other players that penetrate a lot.

You couldn't be more wrong. Again, you clearly don't watch the games. He is met by 2 defenders at half court on a frequent basis.

No one ever said a big man helping on penetration is double teaming, you are reaching with that one.

[liquidrage]

You couldn't be more wrong. Again, you clearly don't watch the games. He is met by 2 defenders at half court on a frequent basis.

No one ever said a big man helping on penetration is double teaming, you are reaching with that one.

You are so full of shit. I have league pass dude. There's a game on right now. Let's count them tonight.

[50inchvertical]

Do you really want to talk about offensive pushovers in the starting lineup?

http://athletetattoodatabase.com/img/wiki_up/keith.bogans1.jpg
^4 PPG, has started every game this year.

http://www.chitownlowdown.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kurt_thomas_250_081027.jpg
^For 30+ games.
Thabo Sefalosha averages 4ppg. He is practically the same player as Brewer or Bogans :lol

And do you people even look at stats? Updated to include last night, Rose wins 4 of the 9 categories the NBA tracks at the surface. After his 4 of 5 performance last night, Westbrook is even shooting better from 3.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2nusqwi.jpg

[PP34Deuce]

Thabo Sefalosha averages 4ppg. He is practically the same player as Brewer or Bogans :lol

And do you people even look at stats? Updated to include last night, Rose wins 4 of the 9 categories the NBA tracks at the surface. After his 4 of 5 performance last night, Westbrook is even shooting better from 3.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2nusqwi.jpg


Rose is a lot more calmer under pressure

[50inchvertical]

Rose is a lot more calmer under pressure
they both lost in the playoffs in round 1 last yr.

Clutch stat shows Westbrook shoots a slightly higher % in clutch situations.
http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

[imdaman99]

Oh cool, a guy is double teamed all the time and still happens to shoot more.

[50inchvertical]

Oh cool, a guy is double teamed all the time and still happens to shoot more.
And gets less assists but is still a better passer, shoots a worst % but is still a better shooter, defies all logic. It's like religion. Some people believe, I'm just saying the evidence paints a different story

[liquidrage]

So far been trapped once off a pick and threw it away. No special D so far. I missed 20 seconds to get a drink though so chances are Rose had 5 defenders out on the line with him when I stepped away.

[B-Rich]

Only reason this many rose threads are popping out is that people are intimidated by youngest MVP ever, or they feel he doesn't deserve to be youngest MVP ever.

MVP = best player on one of the best teams...

So I don't see any problems. Rose might not be best MVP of all time, but if he wins it would't be undeserved. That if for sure.
No he doesn't deserve the MVP. The Bulls aren't even the best team, but he would only win the MVP because of all his hype. I still think Westbrook is better then Derrick Rose.

[imdaman99]

they both lost in the playoffs in round 1 last yr.

Clutch stat shows Westbrook shoots a slightly higher % in clutch situations.
http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
One's team took the eventual champions a lot farther than the other guy's team did, and yeah his superstar teammate wasn't exactly lights out in that series.

[burnsy87]

So far been trapped once off a pick and threw it away. No special D so far. I missed 20 seconds to get a drink though so chances are Rose had 5 defenders out on the line with him when I stepped away.

Typical for you to exaggerate something. Philly obviously isn't going to double him when they are up by 12.

I actually stated in an earlier post that he gets doubled usually later in games.

Yeah, if Philly continues to work them and we continue to shoot 10%, then they probably arent going to double Rose even one time.

[50inchvertical]

Philly up in that ass right now.

[liquidrage]

Typical for you to exaggerate something. Philly obviously isn't going to double him when they are up by 12.

I actually stated in an earlier post that he gets doubled usually later in games.

Yeah, if Philly continues to work them and we continue to shoot 10%, then they probably arent going to double Rose even one time.

Dude. Double teams on the outside, outside of a pick and roll where the offense is responsible for bringing the second defender to the ball and forcing them either to fight over the pick, switch, or trap, is suicide in the NBA. And happens so little it's ****ing meaningless.

Just deal with it. Rose's stats aren't hurt by being the #1. Westbrook's aren't helped by being the number 2. In fact it's the opposite. The Thunder don't run Westbrook through 2 screens multiple times a quarter like the Bulls do for Rose to get him the ball in more space.

And look, Rose is a great player no doubt. I'm not poo-poo'ing him in anyway. But you and your kind of ROSE IS EVEN BETTER THEN THE NUMBERS BECAUSE TEAMS DOUBLE HIM A LOT are ****ing retarded.

[burnsy87]

So far been trapped once off a pick and threw it away. No special D so far. I missed 20 seconds to get a drink though so chances are Rose had 5 defenders out on the line with him when I stepped away.

You also have to look at the quality of the defender on Rose. With Holiday playing, it is far less likely for Philly to force the ball out of his hands.

[liquidrage]

Lol CJ just got doubled teamed by mistake and of course they called 3 seconds on it.

[liquidrage]

Nice drive by Rose. Still nothing special defensively though. He sees what most people see.

I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up with 40 points, he's a great player, it's not a poo-poo discussion, just a discussion of how teams defend him.

[burnsy87]

Nice drive by Rose. Still nothing special defensively though. He sees what most people see.

I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up with 40 points, he's a great player, it's not a poo-poo discussion, just a discussion of how teams defend him.

I know it's not, but I'm not making stuff up. What boozer and deng just did is EXACTLY what other teams do to rose when he starts torching them.

[liquidrage]

I know it's not, but I'm not making stuff up. What boozer and deng just did is EXACTLY what other teams do to rose when he starts torching them.

That's a trap and Rose is a PG. Was Iguodala tearing up the Bulls when they decided to trap him at half court? Dude, Westbrook and every other PG sees that from time to time when teams are trying to get back in a game.

Andre was 3 of 7 when they trapped him at half court. He was just the guy bringing the ball up when they trapped.

[liquidrage]

Couple of observations.

Rose's fast break was beautiful but shows the difference between him and Westbrook. Rose was masterful avoiding the block and getting the bucket. Westbrook would have gone right at the rim and gotten fouled.

Holiday is F'IN horrid at running the fast break. I've only seen Holiday a handful of times this year and never been impressed. He's an ultra conservative PG, can't finish (despite supposedly being ambidextrous), and yet still makes horrible decisions. He's thrown away at least 6 points on the break tonight that the elite PG's (Rose, Westbrook, CP3, Nash, DWill) wouldn't have.

[2010splash]

You're delusional if you think Rose's defense can hold a candle to Westbrook's. Rose plays the worst defense on his team. Westbrook isn't an elite defender but he's slightly above average.
Are you new to basketball?

Rose is one of the top 2, if not the THE very best, defensive PGs in basketball.

Westbrook just gets steals and is a lazy defender who is living off reputation. He can't defend for squat this season. Rose is a much better defender.

When has Westbrook ever held Deron to 1-13 shooting and outplayed both Deron and Paul every single head to head matchup in the same season? That's right, he never has.

[burnsy87]

There was a do or die double team right there, Boozer made him pay.

[liquidrage]

There was a do or die double team right there, Boozer made him pay.

Boozer came up top and his defender with him. After setting a crappy pick his defender trapped off on Rose. I rewound it a few times to see how the play unfolded. And Rose did exactly what he should do, pass to the guy who's defender just left him.

And another great drive by Rose btw.

[50inchvertical]

Are you new to basketball?

Rose is one of the top 2, if not the THE very best, defensive PGs in basketball.

Westbrook just gets steals and is a lazy defender who is living off reputation. He can't defend for squat this season. Rose is a much better defender.

When has Westbrook ever held Deron to 1-13 shooting and outplayed both Deron and Paul every single head to head matchup in the same season? That's right, he never has.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

Are you serious? He held Deron to 14pts and kills Chris Paul so bad, Chris admitted it himself


Hornets Guard Chris Paul
On if turnovers and missed free throws were the reason for the loss:
“Yeah I think it comes down to stops too in game like that. You have to be able to get stops at the end of the game. The and-one (Russell) Westbrook got was huge. (He got) fouled and he made the shot. That was probably one of the biggest plays of the game."

On the Hornets inability to score in the third quarter (a season low 12 points):
“Turnovers. We had a couple good looks, but we weren’t efficient offensively. We were passing the ball all over the place. With our team, there’s a lot of times when we get steals and we’re not as athletic when we get out in transition. When they get steals, it’s a dunk on the other end. We have to figure out a way to transition like that.”

On Russell Westbrook being especially motivated to play against you:
[laughs] “I don’t think so. I don’t know, he just had a great game. My college coach used to say ‘it’s a team game played by individuals,’ I obviously lost my matchup tonight, and that probably has to do with why we lost.”

http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/121010_pgq_NOHOKC.html

33/10 IN UTAH while holding Deron Williams to 14 pts in a loss.
http://www.nba.com/games/20110205/OKCUTA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Again, you Bulls homers don't even watch other teams.

[burnsy87]

Boozer came up top and his defender with him. After setting a crappy pick his defender trapped off on Rose. I rewound it a few times to see how the play unfolded. And Rose did exactly what he should do, pass to the guy who's defender just left him.

And another great drive by Rose btw.


Another double. Defender didnt even think about recovering to his original assignment.

This is what starts to happen when Rose takes over games.

[burnsy87]

And I'm not saying Rose would have 60 points every night if teams didnt double team him.

I'm just pointing out that he is MUCH more constricted that other guards like Westbrook. He isn't constantly forced to give the ball up to other players. Part of the reason they don't do that is because they don't want to leave a guy unguarded with Durant on the court.

On nights like tonight when nobody is making shots but Rose, it makes it even more remarkable that he is single handedly bringing the team back even though he is being trapped and getting the ball forced out of his hands on a third of the possessions.

[liquidrage]

Another double. Defender didnt even think about recovering to his original assignment.

This is what starts to happen when Rose takes over games.


Ummm, not for nothing. But Boozer is walking his defender over to him and they are trapping off of it. That's normal. Boozer is the one making them pay off it, not Rose. Rose is doing the right thing and hitting the guy whose defender left him. That's basketball 101 when they trap. Notice right there Boozer stayed low, started to come out, Rose waived him off, and there was just one on one defense in front of Rose.

[FKAri]

about even. Different situations and environments so it's hard to compare. I think Rose is a smarter player tho.

[liquidrage]

And I'm not saying Rose would have 60 points every night if teams didnt double team him.

I'm just pointing out that he is MUCH more constricted that other guards like Westbrook. He isn't constantly forced to give the ball up to other players. Part of the reason they don't do that is because they don't want to leave a guy unguarded with Durant on the court.

On nights like tonight when nobody is making shots but Rose, it makes it even more remarkable that he is single handedly bringing the team back even though he is being trapped and getting the ball forced out of his hands on a third of the possessions.


Westbrook gets trapped off the pick-n-roll a ton every night so I'm not sure what you mean. 4x so far tonight Rose has been trapped. That's pretty common by NBA standards. In fact, Holiday has seen more doubles off of it tonight then Rose has. What would be nicer is if the Bulls played it a little better. If Boozer wasn't Boozer and actually peeled off better he could give Rose a better target to hit. But Boozer is the most frustrating good player in the league.

One of things your missing is the Thunder don't run the pick-n-roll with Durant a lot. Instead they free him off of screens. So his defender isn't involved in it at all really. It's usually Collison/Ibaka/now Perkins that are running it with Westbrook. One of the main Thunder beat writers has complained about that since last year since if it was Durant and Westbrook running it they couldn't trap as much off it. Still it works with Collison pretty well since he has a nice 18 footer, and Russ is very good at splitting it.

[50inchvertical]

^ Bullshit, teams just generally help off somebody not guarding Durant. There's 5 players on the court, it isn't 2 on 2.

And if I am correct that @Mil, @NJN, @Tor, and @Bos are the only games KD missed this season, then Westbrooks average WITHOUT Durant.

29.25 ppg per game :oldlol: .750 record

excuses now?

And Jeff Green, James Harden also missed time in those games too. I guess Russ is lucky Ibaka was there to draw double teams and make it easy for him.

[burnsy87]

Ummm, not for nothing. But Boozer is walking his defender over to him and they are trapping off of it. That's normal. Boozer is the one making them pay off it, not Rose. Rose is doing the right thing and hitting the guy whose defender left him. That's basketball 101 when they trap. Notice right there Boozer stayed low, started to come out, Rose waived him off, and there was just one on one defense in front of Rose.

That isn't basketball 101. Teams rarely trap off a pick. The defender who had Boozer would usually cut Rose off until Holiday (or whoever was guarding rose at the time) recovered.

I mean seriously, you think it's normal for teams to be trapping the point guard on a pick and roll with 10 minutes left in the 3rd?

[liquidrage]

That isn't basketball 101. Teams rarely trap off a pick. The defender who had Boozer would usually cut Rose off until Holiday (or whoever was guarding rose at the time) recovered.

I mean seriously, you think it's normal for teams to be trapping the point guard on a pick and roll with 10 minutes left in the 3rd?


Dude, the Bulls are constantly trapping Holiday off of it. There are only 3 options. Go over the top and stay, switch, trap. Holiday has literally been doubled off of it like 10x tonight. He gives it up quick though, where as Rose is better at keeping the dribble alive and being patient with it. CP3 is probably the best at it in the league.

[magnax1]

This shit again.

Again, Westbrook shoots a higher % at the rim then Rose does. That's 3 feet and under.
Westbrook has more assists at the rim the Rose does.

Both of these are true for the second year in a row.
Westbrook gets more fast break opportunities, that's why his FG% at the rim is higher. Not because he's a better finisher.

[50inchvertical]

That isn't basketball 101. Teams rarely trap off a pick. The defender who had Boozer would usually cut Rose off until Holiday (or whoever was guarding rose at the time) recovered.

I mean seriously, you think it's normal for teams to be trapping the point guard on a pick and roll with 10 minutes left in the 3rd?
Teams do the same thing to Russell.

You guys are hilarious, like Rose is just so great and unique of a player that some new defense had to be invented to stop him. Every fast guard who is dynamic turning the corner off the big has to be guarded that way, Parker, CP3, even some 2s like Manu you have to do the same.

[burnsy87]

Dude, the Bulls are constantly trapping Holiday off of it. There are only 3 options. Go over the top and stay, switch, trap. Holiday has literally been doubled off of it like 10x tonight. He gives it up quick though, where as Rose is better at keeping the dribble alive and being patient with it. CP3 is probably the best at it in the league.

There's another one at half court.

[liquidrage]

There's another one at half court.

What where he turn it over? Again, the Bulls walked a second defender to him. If they don't want to see that they shouldn't bring a second player up. And it's still nothing special. I'll use Holiday again since it's in the same game. He still has been trapped off it more tonight then Rose.

[50inchvertical]

I'd call Nash the best still at keeping his dribble alive until he has a shot or a pass. Sucks I can't even find a good Westbrook mix, or the particular highlight I'm looking for. This is about the best 1 but very short and limited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHFB2WjpQLY I was trying to find the Thunder @ Cavs game where they were trapping Russell up at half court and he kept blowing by everybody and dunking or laying it up, had 20 on all layups in basically 3 quarters. I can't find the play I'm looking for though, don't know who selects the highlights that make the SC/nba.com highlight but it was the best play of the game and didn't make it, which gets back into the whole exposure thing

[burnsy87]

I'd call Nash the best still at keeping his dribble alive until he has a shot or a pass. Sucks I can't even find a good Westbrook mix, or the particular highlight I'm looking for. This is about the best 1 but very short and limited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHFB2WjpQLY

I agree about nash.

[liquidrage]

Nash is great at it. I'd put him right with CP3 at running it, but they're in a class by themselves. Of course, neither is as good at taking their guy one on one as Rose is, or Westbrook for that matter.

[liquidrage]

Did I mention how much I think Holiday sucks? That was a pretty finish though.

Interesting note back to the #1 options stuff.

Rose is close to taking 25 shots for the 15th time this year (might not make it since it looks like it's over). Westbrook has 1 game of 25 of more shots.

I still put Rose a hair above Westbrook, but I can't go more then that. If Westbrook took 200 more shots this year his scoring would be about the same. And the defenses treat them about the same. The only thing that would probably be different goes both ways. Russell would have more pressure on him if he had to be the lone scoring option. But at the same time he'd be more able to shoot through some bad starts, something that doesn't happen much. If he's off to a bad start he doesn't *usually* take a lot of shots unless Durant is also struggling.

[imdaman99]

I'd call Nash the best still at keeping his dribble alive until he has a shot or a pass. Sucks I can't even find a good Westbrook mix, or the particular highlight I'm looking for. This is about the best 1 but very short and limited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHFB2WjpQLY I was trying to find the Thunder @ Cavs game where they were trapping Russell up at half court and he kept blowing by everybody and dunking or laying it up, had 20 on all layups in basically 3 quarters. I can't find the play I'm looking for though, don't know who selects the highlights that make the SC/nba.com highlight but it was the best play of the game and didn't make it, which gets back into the whole exposure thing
Dude exposure is definitely a big deal. Rose goes 6 for 22 and all they will show is the 6 shots he makes in highlights, about 3 or 4 which were very nice shots with high degree of difficulty. And Westy hits 3 big threes in the 4th quarter, and all they show is one that he makes with 5 mins left. Not exactly Sportscenter, but it was NBA Gametime from NBA.com.

[Pointguard]

No shit. That doesn't mean there's a ton they can do to take out an outside shooter. Either you have Artest or your don't. For Westbrook, either you have the bigs that can handle him when he gets to the paint or you don't. That's 90% of it. The other things that teams can do is great rotations (effects Westbrook more then Durant since Westbrook penetrates 4x as much as Durant), ways to play the pick and roll (like Howard who is awesome at it), etc...


He does when Durant isn't on the floor. He did when Durant was out. And you haven't even made one logical argument as to how Durant helps create space for Russell.
LOL, you truely have no clue. Stepping up while another player is down doesn't mean you can do it for a month or two months much less a season. Darren Collison filled in CP3 last year and looked great. He was off the hook. Now give him a full time job as a starter he realizes that he has to pace himself be selective and its more hectic. That's an adrenaline flow. What Durant missed like three four games?

And do you seriously do not think that Durant doesn't create space? Are you really this ignant? You mean if Durant goes 12ft from the basket you think he goes undetected? You always have to look over your shoulder for Durant. This is like kindengarden stuff? I can't figure you out. Do you really not understand the value of high percentage/dominant shooter?



What chaos? THE ONE MAN GUARDING HIM.
I said if you don't know what I mean by shadowing, positioning yourself a certain way if he's on your side of the court and even turning your head for a second, Westbrook capitalizes.


Btw, Lebron's shots at the rim are just as high as ever and Wade's are up. Seems they're getting to the rim just fine this year.

For Lebron they are not in half court sets. He penetrates very little in half court sets. Wade has streaks where he does but it isn't the same at all. They get in each others way and it's been ugly ball. I don't know how you are seeing that in a different way.



And you haven't even made one logical argument as to how Durant helps create space for Russell
:lol


And you haven't even made one logical argument as to how Durant helps create space for Russell
Ya kidding me right?


And you haven't even made one logical argument as to how Durant helps create space for Russell
You a funny cat.

[50inchvertical]

As someone who watches Thunder games for the last 3 seasons, Westbrook loosens the d up and sets up Durant more than vice versa.

BTW, who are the league leaders in triple doubles this yr?