NBA TV: Clutch stats of Kobe, Wade, and Lebron

[Colby Brian]

This was just on NBA Gametime, where they did a segment with that title, broke it down and gave their own definition of clutch.

The scenario is: Since 06-07, Last 10 Seconds of 4th Quarter / Overtime, Tied or Down 1-3

Wade
FG - 5/43 (11.6%)
3 Point FG - 2/17 (11.8%)
Free Throws - 10/12 (83.3%)
Total Points - 22

LeBron
FG - 9/41 (22.0%)
3 Point FG - 1/21 (4.85%)
Free Throws - 12/15 (80.0%)
Total Points - 31

Kobe
FG - 13/37 (35.1%)
3 Point FG - 4/16 (25%)
Free Throws - 7/11 (63.6%)
Total Points - 37

[chazzy]

Inb4 shitstorm.

They've had to have shot more FTs than that though

[Colby Brian]

Dirks numbers

FG - 11/24 (45.8%)
3 Point FG - 2/8 (25.05)
Free Throws - 0/0
Total Points - 24

[LastChanceToWin]

I would take Lebron and his ability to draw fouls and make the shots at the end of the game over any other player.

[ashbelly]

I'll take wade's and bron's ability to drive in and get a foul too. :rockon:

[KG5MVP]

If kobe shoots more efficient in the first 3 quarter, there wouldn't be the need for clutch time

[DixieNourmous]

I would take Lebron and his ability to draw fouls and make the shots at the end of the game over any other player.

Draw fouls maybe, make shots????? :confusedshrug:

[Colby Brian]

I'll take wade's and bron's ability to drive in and get a foul too. :rockon:

lol sure, ill take kobe and dirk

[Christofire]

lol sure, ill take kobe and dirk

Dirk is clutch always gets a bad rep for the collapse and ofcourse the warriors spanking them. But his collapses had far more to do with inability to defend than aything else

[rizzy]

Nice made up statistics


"I saw it on TV"

"I memorized all the numbers as I saw it"


lmaoooooo :lol

[50inchvertical]

Dirk and Carmelo are both underrated in these scenarios

[catch24]

Just started watching Gametime at 8... lets see if these stats are legit.

[ginobli2311]

Dirks numbers

FG - 11/24 (45.8%)
3 Point FG - 2/8 (25.05)
Free Throws - 0/0
Total Points - 24

yet another clutch stat that favors dirk. shocking.

[Colby Brian]

Nice made up statistics


"I saw it on TV"

"I memorized all the numbers as I saw it"


lmaoooooo :lol

no lol i got these numbers from somebody else

[Disaprine]

clutch stats should be how they perform in the entire forth quarter.

[ginobli2311]

clutch stats should be how they perform in the entire forth quarter.

it should be a ton of different things.

- game winners with 24 seconds left
- game winners with 10 seconds left
- play with 5 minutes left in tight games
- play with 3 minutes left in tight games
- team offensive production in tight games
- team record in tight games

and probably more. it should be a ton of different things. not just one criteria.

for example, melo is much better than kobe on game winners, but i'll take kobe in the 4th qtr in a tight game over melo every single time.

[bl2k8]

Bron should not be shooting three's in the clutch

[Hulk Hogan]

yet another clutch stat that favors dirk. shocking.

If you take away three point attempts... Kobe would have better % so GTFO!

[Disaprine]

it should be a ton of different things.

- game winners with 24 seconds left
- game winners with 10 seconds left
- play with 5 minutes left in tight games
- play with 3 minutes left in tight games
- team offensive production in tight games
- team record in tight games

and probably more. it should be a ton of different things. not just one criteria.

for example, melo is much better than kobe on game winners, but i'll take kobe in the 4th qtr in a tight game over melo every single time.
your probably right, but the entire 4th quarter alone should be on top of the list.

[ginobli2311]

If you take away three point attempts... Kobe would have better % so GTFO!

what?

dirk has made 11 shots out of 24. kobe has made 13 out of 37.

if these numbers are right there is absolutely no way you can slice them to make kobe better.

especially if those free throw numbers are right. i want to call bs because i don't think kobe chokes at the line that badly. but if those are right. ouch.

maybe kobe should stop taking so many threes? ever thought of that. if he did, maybe the lakers would win more tight games like dirk and the mavs.

mavs have the best record in tight games since 05 in the entire league. boasting an amazing 75-32 record:

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/28/numbers.game/index.html

[Colby Brian]

Bron should not be shooting three's in the clutch

1/21 lol

[EnoughSaid]

If you take away three point attempts... Kobe would have better % so GTFO!

Wow. :roll: If you take away all the bad shots anyone has ever taken, then of course the FG would be better. But sadly, you can't do that my friend.

[Grim]

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1258/pennyiiis003.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1180/wade.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1218/pennyiiis004.jpg


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8977/pennyiiis005.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4380/pennyiiis006.jpg

[ginobli2311]

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1258/pennyiiis003.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1180/wade.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1218/pennyiiis004.jpg


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8977/pennyiiis005.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4380/pennyiiis006.jpg


I'm really amazed at the free throws by Kobe. I wonder if he missed a few on purpose. Wow.

[ginobli2311]

Wow. :roll: If you take away all the bad shots anyone has ever taken, then of course the FG would be better. But sadly, you can't do that my friend.
:cheers:

[Dave3]

If you take away three point attempts... Kobe would have better % so GTFO!
And if you take out 3 point shot attempts from Kobe/LeBron, their percentages become almost the same. It means absolutely nothing. Either use all of the stats or none at all, but don't just be selective to make whomever you love look better.

[Colby Brian]

whats up with wade 5/43 ?

[ginobli2311]

And if you take out 3 point shot attempts from Kobe/LeBron, their percentages become almost the same. It means absolutely nothing. Either use all of the stats or none at all, but don't just be selective to make whomever you love look better.

the three pointers show just how many terrible shots that kobe is taking. he's a great shooter. the only way he misses that many is because he's taking a ton of bad shots. which is his problem. he doesn't pass. so his efficiency in these situations suck and the Lakers offensive efficiency in these situations also sucks. and the lakers record in tight games isn't nearly as good as it should be.

this really has to hurt hulk. another stat in favor of dirk.....

1. mavs have a better record in tight games
2. mavs have a better offense in tight games
3. dirk makes a better percentage of game winners with 24 seconds or less left
4. dirk makes a better percentage of game winners with 10 seconds or less left

its really starting to add up now.

[chazzy]

I'm really amazed at the free throws by Kobe. I wonder if he missed a few on purpose. Wow.
It's 4 misses over a 4 year span, no real explanation for it.

[Batz]

whats up with wade 5/43 ?
Predictability.

[ginobli2311]

It's 4 misses over a 4 year span, no real explanation for it.

i wasn't talking crap. i honestly think the lakers might have been down three a couple times and kobe had to miss the 2nd free throw on purpose.

i know the sample size is small, but i don't think kobe has missed many clutch free throws.

[Indian guy]

Kobe still riding his unreal last season, I see :D. His last-shot conversion rate is dreadful otherwise.

[catch24]

i wasn't talking crap. i honestly think the lakers might have been down three a couple times and kobe had to miss the 2nd free throw on purpose.

i know the sample size is small, but i don't think kobe has missed many clutch free throws.

Kind of bizarre, right? I've watched just about every close Laker game the past 10 seasons, and don't remember him choking on the line like that. Interesting stuff nevertheless. What's really surprising is Dirk's conversion % down the stretch; unbelievable.

[Colby Brian]

Predictability.

i guess the refs just didnt bail him out all those times

[ginobli2311]

Kind of bizarre, right? I've watched just about every close Laker game the past 10 seasons, and don't remember him choking on the line like that. Interesting stuff nevertheless. What's really surprising is Dirk's conversion % down the stretch; unbelievable.

i admit i'm a huge dirk homer, but he's the best clutch player of this era. everything backs it up.

team wins the most close games. his teams' offense is top 5 late in close games. and his conversion rate on game winners is very very good. only melo is better.

[Colby Brian]

i admit i'm a huge dirk homer, but he's the best clutch player of this era. everything backs it up.

team wins the most close games. his teams' offense is top 5 late in close games. and his conversion rate on game winners is very very good. only melo is better.

what about in the playoffs?

i think kobes 5 rings and playoff wins give him the edge

[NBASTATMAN]

This was just on NBA Gametime, where they did a segment with that title, broke it down and gave their own definition of clutch.

The scenario is: Since 06-07, Last 10 Seconds of 4th Quarter / Overtime, Tied or Down 1-3

Wade
FG - 5/43 (11.6%)
3 Point FG - 2/17 (11.8%)
Free Throws - 10/12 (83.3%)
Total Points - 22

LeBron
FG - 9/41 (22.0%)
3 Point FG - 1/21 (4.85%)
Free Throws - 12/15 (80.0%)
Total Points - 31

Kobe
FG - 13/37 (35.1%)
3 Point FG - 4/16 (25%)
Free Throws - 7/11 (63.6%)
Total Points - 37



Dirk came out the best player how come you didn't include him.. And it was for the last 5 years.. Obviously Kobe is going to look great after the ONE GREAT SEASON HE HAD LAST YEAR...

ON NBA TV DIRK SHOT CLOSE TO 50 % IN THAT SCENARIO... YOU FORGET DIRK...


Wow lebron better at clutch free throws than Kobe.. WOW..

[Colby Brian]

Dirk came out the best player how come you didn't include him.. And it was for the last 5 years.. Obviously Kobe is going to look great after the ONE GREAT SEASON HE HAD LAST YEAR...

ON NBA TV DIRK SHOT CLOSE TO 50 % IN THAT SCENARIO... YOU FORGET DIRK...


Wow lebron better at clutch free throws than Kobe.. WOW..

i added dirk on my 2nd post, hint look at the title

[PistonsFan#21]

So Dirk Nowitzki never attempted a clutch free throw since 06-07???

Why do i think there is something wrong with those stats? :confusedshrug:

[Bandito]

i admit i'm a huge dirk homer, but he's the best clutch player of this era. everything backs it up.

team wins the most close games. his teams' offense is top 5 late in close games. and his conversion rate on game winners is very very good. only melo is better.
Finally a kindred spirit...

[NBASTATMAN]

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1258/pennyiiis003.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1180/wade.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1218/pennyiiis004.jpg


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8977/pennyiiis005.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4380/pennyiiis006.jpg



VINCE WAS ONCE THE MOST CLUTCH PLAYER..


If lebron didn't take all those threes he would have a 40 percent rate.. lol

[Colby Brian]

So Dirk Nowitzki never attempted a clutch free throw since 06-07???

Why do i think there is something wrong with those stats? :confusedshrug:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1258/pennyiiis003.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1180/wade.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1218/pennyiiis004.jpg


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8977/pennyiiis005.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4380/pennyiiis006.jpg

[ginobli2311]

what about in the playoffs?

dirk is the best elimination game and game 7 player of this era.

Dirk career elimination games: 28.4ppg, 12.2rpg, 49%fg, 39%3pt.
* According to Elias Sports Bureau, in the ENTIRE history of the NBA, in elimination-games, Dirk Nowitzki has 13 30+ point performances. Only Wilt the Stilt, tied at 13, and Jerry West at 14, have achieved similar results!
* Dirk career game 7

[NBASTATMAN]

i added dirk on my 2nd post, hint look at the title


You should add that to the original post.. Anyone have Melo's numbers...

[Colby Brian]

dirk is the best elimination game and game 7 player of this era.

Dirk career elimination games: 28.4ppg, 12.2rpg, 49%fg, 39%3pt.
* According to Elias Sports Bureau, in the ENTIRE history of the NBA, in elimination-games, Dirk Nowitzki has 13 30+ point performances. Only Wilt the Stilt, tied at 13, and Jerry West at 14, have achieved similar results!
* Dirk career game 7’s
Dirk game 7 vs Kings: 31 pts and 19 rebounds (shot higher than 50%)
Dirk game 7 vs Blazers: 31 pts and 11 rebounds (same)
Dirk game 7 vs Rockets: 14pts and 14 rebs (But his team won in blow out fashion) (5-14)
Dirk game 7 vs Spurs: 37 points and 15 rebounds with the clutch three point play. (above 50%)

i know he has at least 4 playoff game winners. kobe has 6.....on a worse percentage.

kobes 5 rings, and way more playoff wins give him the edge
and dont give me the whole team thing, dirk was on lots of good teams (11 50 wins seasons in a row)

[ginobli2311]

So Dirk Nowitzki never attempted a clutch free throw since 06-07???

Why do i think there is something wrong with those stats? :confusedshrug:
he has. just not in the last 10 seconds. dirk actually gets to the line a lot.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

in that sample size, dirk actually shot more free throws than anyone not named lebron.

[Colby Brian]

You should add that to the original post.. Anyone have Melo's numbers...

look at my title, i was comparing the 3 best players, but i did post dirks numbers too on a different post

[ginobli2311]

You should add that to the original post.. Anyone have Melo's numbers...

not since 07. i know in the last three years he's the best with 10 seconds or less. actually way better than dirk. i think melo also has a few more just in the last few weeks.

they posted his 10 seconds or less numbers over the last 3 years on a mavs broadcast a while ago and i think he had like 12 makes out of 18 shots or something.

he was the best though. don't have that info. sorry.

[ginobli2311]

kobes 5 rings, and way more playoff wins give him the edge
and dont give me the whole team thing, dirk was on lots of good teams (11 50 wins seasons in a row)

so your definition of clutch is winning rings. sounds about right from a kobe stan.

[Colby Brian]

so your definition of clutch is winning rings. sounds about right from a kobe stan.

winning in close games, making big plays, when you play all those playoff games, lots of them come down to the wire and the lakers have come out on top on a lot of them, plus kobe has hit more game winners in the playoffs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg clutch

[ginobli2311]

winning in close games, making big plays, when you play all those playoff games, lots of them come down to the wire and the lakers have come out on top on a lot of them, plus kobe has hit more game winners in the playoffs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg clutch

like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqWyWM3esNQ&feature=related

air balls the series winner. LOL

kobe is 6 of 22 on these shots in the playoffs. 27.3%. Ouch.

http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

[whoartthou]

yet another clutch stat that favors dirk. shocking.

kobes stats arent TOO bad either.

[Ne 1]

Clutch stats tell you everything.

#1 in Clutch FG%: Kris Humphries
#1 in Clutch 3P%: Tony Allen
#1 in Clutch +/-: Dirk Nowitzki

In an ideal world, Phil would bench Bryant and Gasol and put in Tony Allen and Kris Humphries if he really wanted to win games in the clutch. Unfortunately they play for other teams and we're stuck with these losers. :ohwell:

Maybe Kupchak should trade Kobe and Pau next season for Kris Humphries and Tony Allen, since they would give us a better chance to win close games.

[ginobli2311]

Clutch stats tell you everything.

#1 in Clutch FG%: Kris Humphries
#1 in Clutch 3P%: Tony Allen
#1 in Clutch +/-: Dirk Nowitzki

In an ideal world, Phil would bench Bryant and Gasol and put in Tony Allen and Kris Humphries if he really wanted to win games in the clutch. Unfortunately they play for other teams and we're stuck with these losers. :ohwell:

Maybe Kupchak should trade Kobe and Pau next season for Kris Humphries and Tony Allen, since they would give us a better chance to win close games.

the clutch plus minus makes perfect sense. i'd imagine the volume of humphries and allen are pretty low.

nobody is claiming that kobe isn't good. that is laughable. he's just clearly not the best like you and everyone proclaim.

i mean, how many of these things have to come out for you guys to admit it. its really quite funny.

like hulk trying to remove all of kobe's threes. LOL. you and your fellow stans will stop at nothing.

basically the criteria for clutch is this with kobe stans:

"only shots made by the starting sg of the Lakers count. misses do not count at all. only shots made"

sound about right?

[Christofire]

clutch stats should be how they perform in the entire forth quarter.
you're an idioit..... the entire 4th quarter is not the clutch. and the clutch is mre situational than it just being the forth quarter.

[ginobli2311]

kobes stats arent TOO bad either.

never said they were. great players mess up all the time. just look at dirk tonight. he's been awful all game and has been even worse in the clutch. it happens.

[ginobli2311]

you're an idioit..... the entire 4th quarter is not the clutch. and the clutch is mre situational than it just being the forth quarter.

we all know what clutch is. its the last few minutes of a tight game. its making big plays. that might be shots, steals, blocks, rebounds, assists......

its not that broad....as just 4th qtr play. its late in tight games with the game on the line.

[Ne 1]

Yep, because in order to appreciate something, you need to over-analyze it, quantify it and act like everyone is wrong about it but you.

Duh.

:rolleyes:

[gts]

so your definition of clutch is winning rings. sounds about right from a kobe stan.that's why they play the game it's the ultimate scorecard, they play to win rings not accumulate stats so guys who fail to win it all can still be tossed into conversations as "clutch" despite never actually provong they were clutch when it mattered.. clutch is not stats it's finding a way to win games, to hold series leads and not get blown off the map by lower seeded teams

[ginobli2311]

that's why they play the game it's the ultimate scorecard, they play to win rings not accumulate stats so guys who fail to win it all can still be tossed into conversations as "clutch" despite never actually provong they were clutch when it mattered.. clutch is not stats it's finding a way to win games, to hold series leads and not get blown off the map by lower seeded teams

what?

that would just mean the better player or better team. the best team wins....the best player does not always win.

clutch is something more specific than that. we all know this.

your definition just means there is no such thing as clutch. which i'm totally fine with if that is your stance.

but if you try to claim that winning = clutch. that just makes no sense.

[Ne 1]

that's why they play the game it's the ultimate scorecard, they play to win rings not accumulate stats so guys who fail to win it all can still be tossed into conversations as "clutch" despite never actually provong they were clutch when it mattered.. clutch is not stats it's finding a way to win games, to hold series leads and not get blown off the map by lower seeded teams


Winning isn't about winning though.

Winning is about mistakes, efficiency and not looking at the the big picture.

[ginobli2311]

Winning isn't about winning though.

Winning is about mistakes, efficiency and not looking at the the big picture.

this makes no sense whatsoever.

if you want to say there is no such thing as clutch. fine. say it.

but you can't just equate winning a game and being clutch. doesn't work that way.

[Ne 1]

what?

that would just mean the better player or better team. the best team wins....the best player does not always win.

clutch is something more specific than that. we all know this.

your definition just means there is no such thing as clutch. which i'm totally fine with if that is your stance.

but if you try to claim that winning = clutch. that just makes no sense.

Or the ability to take over and win big games?

Let's say your life depended on it. What player would want, to put the ball in his hands, tell everyone to get out the way and trust him to do what it takes to get the job done?

It would have to be a spur of the moment decision. No time to over-analyze a bunch of selective statistics and concepts that don't apply in basketball.

[ginobli2311]

Or the ability to take over and win big games?

Let's say you life depended on it. What player would want, to put the ball in his hands, tell everyone to get out the way and trust him to do what it takes to get the job done?

It would have to be a spur of the moment decision. No time to over-analyze a bunch of selective statistics and concepts that don't apply in basketball.

but basketball is never played one on five. so that situation doesn't exist. i'd want Dirk. he shares the ball. limits his terrible shots. makes a higher percentage of shots from fg, 3's, and ft's.

winning big games is not an individual thing. its a team thing. until you realize this there is no point in debating. you act as if Lebron or Dirk had the same chances to win titles as Kobe the last 3 years. obviously that is not true.

you can define clutch however you want, but at some point it has to be a little more specific than just winning a game.

[Ne 1]

but basketball is never played one on five. so that situation doesn't exist. i'd want Dirk. he shares the ball. limits his terrible shots. makes a higher percentage of shots from fg, 3's, and ft's.

winning big games is not an individual thing. its a team thing. until you realize this there is no point in debating. you act as if Lebron or Dirk had the same chances to win titles as Kobe the last 3 years. obviously that is not true.

you can define clutch however you want, but at some point it has to be a little more specific than just winning a game.

You're burnt.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Clutch means not getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs as a 1 seed:lol

[ginobli2311]

You're burnt.

what? you make no sense. you will claim kobe was clutch in game 7 last year and focus on the 4th qtr. but then you will turn around and say there really isn't such a thing as clutch.

you really don't make any sense.

everyone knows what clutch is. its making big plays down the stretch of tight games. it can be a big shot, a big steal, a big block, a great pass, a big rebound....anything.

usually though the best measure is what kind of shots players are making and missing late in these games.

we all know this. however, when it doesn't fit your agenda, you want to make "clutch" to be this hugely broad thing that is basically just winning.

again. can't do it.

[ginobli2311]

Clutch means not getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs as a 1 seed:lol

absolutely it can. dirk was definitely not clutch at any moment in that series.

was kobe clutch in game 7 against the suns in 06? was he clutch when he air balled the series winning shot? letting his team lost in OT at home in blowout fashion in an elimination game? quitting on his team in the 2nd half of game 7?

how about the 08 finals. was kobe clutch? losing a 20 point lead at home in the biggest game of the series? losing by 40 in an elimination game?

i could go on and on.

Dirk has had many unclutch moments. hell, until the big shot he made late tonight and the great passes he made, he had been terrible in the clutch. just awful

can't use one game or one series or one moment to define a player. if you do, i can come right back with a ton of example of others.

somehow i dont' think lebron qualifies for being clutch in the celtics series last year.

[Christofire]

but basketball is never played one on five. so that situation doesn't exist. i'd want Dirk. he shares the ball. limits his terrible shots. makes a higher percentage of shots from fg, 3's, and ft's.

winning big games is not an individual thing. its a team thing. until you realize this there is no point in debating. you act as if Lebron or Dirk had the same chances to win titles as Kobe the last 3 years. obviously that is not true.

you can define clutch however you want, but at some point it has to be a little more specific than just winning a game.

you forgot always plays on one of the deepest teams in the league and still doesn't make it to the finals and also can't defend other forwards

[Christofire]

absolutely it can. dirk was definitely not clutch at any moment in that series.

was kobe clutch in game 7 against the suns in 06? was he clutch when he air balled the series winning shot? letting his team lost in OT at home in blowout fashion in an elimination game? quitting on his team in the 2nd half of game 7?

how about the 08 finals. was kobe clutch? losing a 20 point lead at home in the biggest game of the series? losing by 40 in an elimination game?

i could go on and on.

Dirk has had many unclutch moments. hell, until the big shot he made late tonight and the great passes he made, he had been terrible in the clutch. just awful

can't use one game or one series or one moment to define a player. if you do, i can come right back with a ton of example of others.

somehow i dont' think lebron qualifies for being clutch in the celtics series last year.

why not?.....James fans always point to the pistons series as his claim to ebing clutch

[winwin]

we all know what clutch is. its the last few minutes of a tight game. its making big plays. that might be shots, steals, blocks, rebounds, assists......

its not that broad....as just 4th qtr play. its late in tight games with the game on the line.
NO
"clutch" means performing well under extreme pressure. period

-a must win road game .. the whole game is "clutch"
-a Game 7 of a best-of-seven series .. the whole game is "clutch"
-a game to clinch .. the whole game is "clutch"
and the final minute(s) in a close match

[ginobli2311]

you forgot always plays on one of the deepest teams in the league and still doesn't make it to the finals and also can't defend other forwards

1. LOL

2. This isn't about Dirk the player. Its about being clutch and making game winners.

Dirk and Melo are the two best game winning shot makers of this era. Just a fact.

Some of the things you mention speak to why Dirk isn't in the Duncan/Shaq/KG tier or the Kobe tier as players. Though Dirk is more clutch than all of them.

[ginobli2311]

NO
"clutch" means performing well under extreme pressure. period

-a must win road game .. the whole game is "clutch"
-a Game 7 of a best-of-seven series .. the whole game is "clutch"
-a game to clinch .. the whole game is "clutch"
and the final minute(s) in a close match

it absolutely can. and dirk is the best elimination game and game 7 player of this era by a wide margin.


this is about players.....saying that kobe is more clutch than dirk because he won the title is about the dumbest definition of clutch i've ever heard.

[ginobli2311]

why not?.....James fans always point to the pistons series as his claim to ebing clutch

i don't understand what part of my post you are talking about. please explain.

[creepingdeath]

Dirks numbers

FG - 11/24 (45.8%)
3 Point FG - 2/8 (25.05)
Free Throws - 0/0
Total Points - 24
:dancin

[ginobli2311]

:dancin

dirk do what dirk do.
:basketball

[KB2clutch]

absolutely it can. dirk was definitely not clutch at any moment in that series.

was kobe clutch in game 7 against the suns in 06? was he clutch when he air balled the series winning shot? letting his team lost in OT at home in blowout fashion in an elimination game? quitting on his team in the 2nd half of game 7?

how about the 08 finals. was kobe clutch? losing a 20 point lead at home in the biggest game of the series? losing by 40 in an elimination game?

i could go on and on.

Dirk has had many unclutch moments. hell, until the big shot he made late tonight and the great passes he made, he had been terrible in the clutch. just awful

can't use one game or one series or one moment to define a player. if you do, i can come right back with a ton of example of others.

somehow i dont' think lebron qualifies for being clutch in the celtics series last year.

actually he was very clutch in either game 4 or 5, cant remember, but the warriors had basically the game on lock down and dirk hit two big threes at the end and got them the win. Also i dont understand where this idea of dirk not being clutch comes from, he has always performed well in the playoffs, and at the end of games its seems as tho he never misses

[Ne 1]

if you want to say there is no such thing as clutch. fine. say it.



It's not that there is no such thing as clutch per se.

It's just that clutch is an intangible factor.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

absolutely it can. dirk was definitely not clutch at any moment in that series.

was kobe clutch in game 7 against the suns in 06? was he clutch when he air balled the series winning shot? letting his team lost in OT at home in blowout fashion in an elimination game? quitting on his team in the 2nd half of game 7?

how about the 08 finals. was kobe clutch? losing a 20 point lead at home in the biggest game of the series? losing by 40 in an elimination game?

i could go on and on.

Dirk has had many unclutch moments. hell, until the big shot he made late tonight and the great passes he made, he had been terrible in the clutch. just awful

can't use one game or one series or one moment to define a player. if you do, i can come right back with a ton of example of others.

somehow i dont' think lebron qualifies for being clutch in the celtics series last year.

What you fail to realize is that Kobe could of retired at age of 22 with more clutch moments then Dirk will never touch unless he wins a ring. Thats just a simple fact. Dirk could shoot 100% in "clutch situations" from the next 15 years and if he doesn't bring home at least one ring to show for it he will always be remembered as the MVP who was sent fishing before receiving his trophy.

[winwin]

it absolutely can. and dirk is the best elimination game and game 7 player of this era by a wide margin.


this is about players.....saying that kobe is more clutch than dirk because he won the title is about the dumbest definition of clutch i've ever heard.
it is about players
say dirk or kobe had 35+ points in a must win road game .. this is a clutch game .. it doesn't have to be:

its the last few minutes of a tight game

[ginobli2311]

actually he was very clutch in either game 4 or 5, cant remember, but the warriors had basically the game on lock down and dirk hit two big threes at the end and got them the win. Also i dont understand where this idea of dirk not being clutch comes from, he has always performed well in the playoffs, and at the end of games its seems as tho he never misses

to the bold.

of course, but i don't want that series to be what we spend this thread on. dirk sucked. he played like crap. it happens.

dirk is clutch of course. people solely focus on the 06 finals and his play in 07 vs the warriors. thats it.

if they took their heads out of their asses and looked at his game 7's. his elimination game play. his game winners. the mavs record in close games....the best in the league. stuff like that, they'd realize he's probably overall the most clutch guy in the league.

but they won't. they want to rag on him for 1 or 2 series he played.

[ginobli2311]

it is about players
say dirk or kobe had 35+ points in a must win road game .. this is a clutch game .. it doesn't have to be:

of course. but that is not what these numbers above reflect.

and again. Dirk fits that above definition better than anyone. best elimination game and game 7 player of this era.

28 and 12 on 49%fg 39% threes for his career in 16 elimination games. not the exact stats, but something very close.

[Silverbullit]

So Dirk Nowitzki never attempted a clutch free throw since 06-07???

Why do i think there is something wrong with those stats? :confusedshrug:

Dirk doesn't get superstar treatment

[Ne 1]

it absolutely can. and dirk is the best elimination game and game 7 player of this era by a wide margin.



So where has his overall success been?

And it's pretty easy for him to do well in game 7's since his team is usually eliminated by or before game 6.

Don't get me wrong Dirk is a good player, but he lacks a lot of what makes a player great, especially at his size. He's a poor post presence that needs another superstar to pick up his slack.

He's also hard to build around. You don't exactly set up plays to get your 7-footer on the perimeter to drain jumpers all game. that's just lame.

Besides, he's in elimination games often, and since he's the only moderately decent player on that team, he's the only one who can score. Put a scorer on that team, and Dirk won't be your first option anymore.


As far as I'm concerned, Dirk Nowitzki will never win a title without becoming the second option, whether that is in Dallas or else where. He's had Steve Nash, and even then he didn't get anywhere. That's because he plays far too much like Steve Nash, since he's a shooter.

Who do you put around Dirk? Great centers are too rare in today's league, and point guards play the perimeter game, where Dirk excels. No other position plays the post as much as a power forward or center, and we all know Dirk Nowitzki isn't a presence in the post.

And that 2007 fiasco which saw Dirk aid in his team's losing against an 8th seed was the turning point of his career. I don't care how poorly matched up the Mavs were against the Warriors, Dirk should have found a way to beat a team that was clearly nowhere near as good as they were. The fact that Dirk is such a liability in the post hurts his team more than anything.

Dirk is actually similar to Rip Hamilton. A scorer and not too much else.

Dirk would make a great core player on a championship team, but he's just not its center piece. He's good but not some irreplaceable, MVP caliber player that can lead a team to a championship. He just ain't built like that. He

[bl2k8]

to the bold.

of course, but i don't want that series to be what we spend this thread on. dirk sucked. he played like crap. it happens.

dirk is clutch of course. people solely focus on the 06 finals and his play in 07 vs the warriors. thats it.

if they took their heads out of their asses and looked at his game 7's. his elimination game play. his game winners. the mavs record in close games....the best in the league. stuff like that, they'd realize he's probably overall the most clutch guy in the league.

but they won't. they want to rag on him for 1 or 2 series he played.
Thats because Dirk's collapses were two of the biggest collapses in NBA history and they happened back to back. It's pretty bad when looking back on it and unfortunately that will more than likely define him

[Mr. Jabbar]

[quote=Ne 1]So where has his overall success been?

And it's pretty easy for him to do well in game 7's since his team is usually eliminated by or before game 6.

Don't get me wrong Dirk is a good player, but he lacks a lot of what makes a player great, especially at his size. He's a poor post presence that needs another superstar to pick up his slack.

He's also hard to build around. You don't exactly set up plays to get your 7-footer on the perimeter to drain jumpers all game. that's just lame.

Besides, he's in elimination games often, and since he's the only moderately decent player on that team, he's the only one who can score. Put a scorer on that team, and Dirk won't be your first option anymore.


As far as I'm concerned, Dirk Nowitzki will never win a title without becoming the second option, whether that is in Dallas or else where. He's had Steve Nash, and even then he didn't get anywhere. That's because he plays far too much like Steve Nash, since he's a shooter.

Who do you put around Dirk? Great centers are too rare in today's league, and point guards play the perimeter game, where Dirk excels. No other position plays the post as much as a power forward or center, and we all know Dirk Nowitzki isn't a presence in the post.

And that 2007 fiasco which saw Dirk aid in his team's losing against an 8th seed was the turning point of his career. I don't care how poorly matched up the Mavs were against the Warriors, Dirk should have found a way to beat a team that was clearly nowhere near as good as they were. The fact that Dirk is such a liability in the post hurts his team more than anything.

Dirk is actually similar to Rip Hamilton. A scorer and not too much else.

Dirk would make a great core player on a championship team, but he's just not its center piece. He's good but not some irreplaceable, MVP caliber player that can lead a team to a championship. He just ain't built like that. He

[Simple Jack]

Reading Ne_1's and Mr. Jabbar's posts is really entertaining.
:hammerhead:

[d.bball.guy]

Dirk and Carmelo are both underrated in these scenarios
This.

[winwin]

Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix recently called Bryant "the game's most cold-blooded closer."

The New York Times' Howard Beck, too, deemed Bryant "the NBA's ultimate closer."

Oakland Tribune columnist Monte Poole wrote that Bryant isn't just the best closer in basketball, "he's the best closer in sports."

[Simple Jack]

Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix recently called Bryant "the game's most cold-blooded closer."

The New York Times' Howard Beck, too, deemed Bryant "the NBA's ultimate closer."

Oakland Tribune columnist Monte Poole wrote that Bryant isn't just the best closer in basketball, "he's the best closer in sports."

This is why threads like this exist; because of a misconceived notion that it would be BEYOND idiotic to ever think another human could ever be as clutch as the Bean.

Threads go to 10+ pages just questioning not even the fact that he's clutch, but rather that he's the most clutch player in the league. We all know he's clutch; but it doesn't stop there. For some reason, it's the sole objective of posters like Ne1 to try to make us all believe picking anyone else over Kobe is the equivalent of stating 2 + 2 = 5 despite the facts that keep coming out related to this topic.

[ginobli2311]

Reading Ne_1's and Mr. Jabbar's posts is really entertaining.
:hammerhead:

They have the most selective memories ever.

I can post videos of Kobe air balling a series winning shot in 2006. I can post Kobe air balling the game winner against the suns last year.

As for game 7's. How about Kobe choking in the finals last year? LOL

* Dirk career game 7

[ginobli2311]

This is why threads like this exist; because of a misconceived notion that it would be BEYOND idiotic to ever think another human could ever be as clutch as the Bean.

Threads go to 10+ pages just questioning not even the fact that he's clutch, but rather that he's the most clutch player in the league. We all know he's clutch; but it doesn't stop there. For some reason, it's the sole objective of posters like Ne1 to try to make us all believe picking anyone else over Kobe is the equivalent of stating 2 + 2 = 5 despite the facts that keep coming out related to this topic.

Its just hilarious at this point:

1. Dirk is better on game winners with 24 seconds and 10 seconds left
2. The Mavs win the most close games out of any team in the league
3. The Mavs offensive efficiency is top 5 in the clutch. The Lakers throughout Kobe's career is 12th.

How much more do we need to say that Dirk is at least on par with Kobe?

This discussion then becomes about who the better player is when the stans get frustrated with the facts. Of course the better player is Kobe. But by their definition, better player = more clutch. Which is hilarious because its not the case. Dirk is definitely more clutch than Shaq or KG....but both of those players are better than Dirk.

I really thought Kobe fans would be sobered by his struggles from 03 to 08. Kobe didn't have by far the best help in the league and he didn't win anything. he got upset three times in the playoffs. missed the playoffs once and got bounced in the first round twice in that 6 year span. he accomplished nothing extraordinary in the heart of his prime/peak. nothing.

three upsets. lakers were favored over spurs in 03, pistons in 04, and celtics in 08. misses the playoffs with odom and butler? 10 games under .500 that year for games kobe played? kobe and his team choking in game 6 at home in 06? kobe quitting in a game 7? blowing a 3-1 series lead?

getting outplayed by paul pierce in the finals...especially the big moments. collapsing at home blowing a 20 point lead in game 4 against the celtics? losing by 40 in a win or go home game in the finals? LOL. my god. its just too funny to even type.

how does that not sober a fan base a little? its just absurd.

[Bigsmoke]

lol and Heat fans got mad at me when I said Kobe is better than Wade and Lebron in the clutch.

[asdf1990]

lol and Heat fans got mad at me when I said Kobe is better than Wade and Lebron in the clutch.

That's true in the regular season. In the playoffs Kobe is anything but clutch.

[brownmamba00]

That's true in the regular season. In the playoffs Kobe is anything but clutch.
He's still pretty clutch in the playoffs. First thing that pops into my mind is game6 vs the Suns last season and game 5(?) vs the Nuggets in '09

So no you guys fail at proving Kobe is not clutch in the reg.season/playoffs.

[sosolid4u09]

If kobe shoots more efficient in the first 3 quarter, there wouldn't be the need for clutch time

wanna explain why that line of reasoning doesn't apply to lebron and wade? you will notice that lebron AND wade have both TAKEN more shots in that timeframe...so your reasoning is completely false.

dumb troll

[sosolid4u09]

yet another clutch stat that favors dirk. shocking.

gonna ignore the fact that kobe ranks better than lebron and wade in this? of course you are

[sosolid4u09]

I'm really amazed at the free throws by Kobe. I wonder if he missed a few on purpose. Wow.

go on...keep ignoring the fact that kobe is better than wade and lebron in this criteria...

[Clutch]

I would take Lebron and his ability to draw fouls and make the shots at the end of the game over any other player.
http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064224789122.gif http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064144409844.gif
http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064218528528.gif http://nsa25.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28/110228064222688129.gif
http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/03/04/110304062927733416.gifhttp://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/03/07/110307120215365093.gif
http://nsa25.casimages.com/img/2011/03/08/110308093513304355.gif

[PurpleChuck]

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah
Melo chokes too.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1565/knickssucks.jpg

[NY-Knicks]

Melo chokes too.


Sure. Care to look up his stats?

[PurpleChuck]

Sure. Care to look up his stats?
Goes 2-12 and hides in bus from media.:facepalm

lol @ " I do this."

Do what? Choke and puss out?:oldlol: :oldlol:

[NY-Knicks]

Goes 2-12 and hides in bus from media.:facepalm

lol @ " I do this."

Do what? Choke and puss out?:oldlol: :oldlol:

Ehm, clutch?

Now look up game winners, percentages, all that shit. And compare them to your saviors.

[PurpleChuck]

Ehm, clutch?

Now look up game winners, percentages, all that shit. And compare them to your saviors.
:roll: :roll: :roll: NY is a joke! Franchise player pussing out.

Melo a no-show during loss -- and after (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=6235365)

[NY-Knicks]

Oh, and PurpleChuck, once you're done and you notice I was right......


go make me a fckin' sandwich.

I want egg, vegetables, bacon, all that shit.

Whoops almost forgot, don't even try to leave the garlic sauce out of there.

[NY-Knicks]

haha stop avoiding it *****.

[Ne 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nEqiEZQ30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOXZea1iGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDpPrdF6ANs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0vfX6j1Pw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlusnThciI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqLrgyVIAE

[PurpleChuck]

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[NY-Knicks]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So, I'm still waiting.

[NY-Knicks]

Haven't seen that sandwich either. You're on of the worst bitches I've ever had.

[NY-Knicks]

You've given up?

I'm shocked. :facepalm

[crisoner]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2031/2347978757_ecce1a30ed.jpg

Looks good Purple!!!

[NY-Knicks]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2031/2347978757_ecce1a30ed.jpg

Looks good Purple!!!

Whoops forgot to say, I'm not a fan of white bread. And he missed the damn garlic sauce so I guess it's not that bad he has to start all over again.

[aau]

so your definition of clutch is winning rings. sounds about right from a kobe stan.

what's your definition of clutch

not winning?

sounds about right coming from a dirk stan

is there any wonder why winning is not important to this guy

[aau]

Reading Ne_1's and Mr. Jabbar's posts is really entertaining.
:hammerhead:

second this emotion

[Colby Brian]

They have the most selective memories ever.

I can post videos of Kobe air balling a series winning shot in 2006. I can post Kobe air balling the game winner against the suns last year.

As for game 7's. How about Kobe choking in the finals last year? LOL

* Dirk career game 7’s
Dirk game 7 vs Kings: 31 pts and 19 rebounds (shot higher than 50%)
Dirk game 7 vs Blazers: 31 pts and 11 rebounds (same)
Dirk game 7 vs Rockets: 14pts and 14 rebs (But his team won in blow out fashion) (5-14)
Dirk game 7 vs Spurs: 37 points and 15 rebounds with the clutch three point play. (above 50%)
Kobe career game 7’s
vs Celtics: 6-24 (23pts)
vs Rockets 4-12 (14pts)
vs Suns 8-16 (1 pt in second half) (21pts)
vs Kings 10-26 (30pts)
vs blazers 9-19 (25pts)

LOL


So lets get this straight. Dirk can't be clutch because of two bad series but Kobe is clutch even though he's played way more than two horrid series. Christ, Kobe played two awful series last year. He was really bad against the Thunder and Celtics....and to make matters worse, he was bad in the clutch in those series as well. Kobe shot like 27% in the finals in the 4th qtrs.

Kobe is 6 of 22 on game winners for his career in the playoffs. I could go on and on.

Such a joke.

Its the most inconsistent logic I've ever seen used.

kobe has 5 rings and 7 finals apperances
dirk has 0 rings and 1 finals apperances

dirk has been on 11 straight 50+ win teams, and only made it to the finals once

how about missing that freethrow in game 3 of 06 finals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkHFqiuV3c

[Colby Brian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nEqiEZQ30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOXZea1iGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDpPrdF6ANs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0vfX6j1Pw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlusnThciI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqLrgyVIAE

damn 7 parts

[ginobli2311]

go on...keep ignoring the fact that kobe is better than wade and lebron in this criteria...

uhhhhh. i've repeatedly said that in a must shoot situation. which is what 10 seconds or less usually is....i'd much rather have kobe than lebron or wade.

with 24 seconds or less left? i'd rather have lebron than kobe. but kobe over wade.

lebron actually passes. or at least he used to. now Lebron plays those like Kobe. completely wrong and inefficient and they both miss around 70% of the time and both of their teams have average offenses in game winning situations.

these numbers just prove my points even more. as usual.

[ginobli2311]

what's your definition of clutch

not winning?

sounds about right coming from a dirk stan

is there any wonder why winning is not important to this guy

winning is very important. but winning more games does not make one player more clutch than another. if that is the case, then bill russell is the most clutch player of all time. followed by hondo, jones, kareem.....

by your standard, pippen was much more clutch than kobe. he won more often. he didn't get upset in the playoffs nearly as often as kobe.

if winning = clutch.....then shaq is more clutch than Larry Bird.

do you agree with this?

please answer.

[ginobli2311]

kobe has 5 rings and 7 finals apperances
dirk has 0 rings and 1 finals apperances

dirk has been on 11 straight 50+ win teams, and only made it to the finals once

how about missing that freethrow in game 3 of 06 finals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkHFqiuV3c

dirk has choked a number of times in clutch situations. just like every player.

not sure what you are trying to prove with the Lakers titles. Did kobe in those by himself?

winning does not equal clutch.

if it does. shaq is more clutch than bird. russell is far more clutch than jordan.

do you agree that shaq is more clutch than bird?

[bl2k8]

uhhhhh. i've repeatedly said that in a must shoot situation. which is what 10 seconds or less usually is....i'd much rather have kobe than lebron or wade.

with 24 seconds or less left? i'd rather have lebron than kobe. but kobe over wade.

lebron actually passes. or at least he used to. now Lebron plays those like Kobe. completely wrong and inefficient and they both miss around 70% of the time and both of their teams have average offenses in game winning situations.

these numbers just prove my points even more. as usual.
gtfoh Kobe passes to, watch game 3 vs jazz last year, at least two Memphis games to ron artest in the corner, the triple OT game he passed twice,

[ginobli2311]

gtfoh Kobe passes to, watch game 3 vs jazz last year, at least two Memphis games to ron artest in the corner, the triple OT game he passed twice,

i'm making a blanket statement that is overall accurate. of course kobe passes at times. however, he does not pass nearly as much as other players late in games.

its just a fact.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

You can easily put out different stats and say one player is better.
For example, did you know that Derek Fisher shot a higher percentage in the last 24 seconds of a game than LeBron James?
Derek Fisher > LeBron

See how easy it is?

[bl2k8]

You can easily put out different stats and say one player is better.
For example, did you know that Derek Fisher shot a higher percentage in the last 24 seconds of a game than LeBron James?
Derek Fisher > LeBron

See how easy it is?
I would argue Fisher is much more dependable in the clutch than bron, not as an overall player obviously:confusedshrug:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

But give me Kobe anyday.

[ginobli2311]

I would argue Fisher is much more dependable in the clutch than bron, not as an overall player obviously:confusedshrug:

this.

this is about being clutch. not who the better player is.

still not sure why this always evolves into kobe vs dirk or lebron vs player x....as better players.

we all know kobe is a better player than dirk.

this thread is not about that. its about performances in game winning situations. its about performance with the game on the line.

if i had to choose between fisher and lebron to take a huge shot? ****, i'm taking fisher every single time.

[winwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nEqiEZQ30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOXZea1iGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDpPrdF6ANs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0vfX6j1Pw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlusnThciI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqLrgyVIAE

simply G.O.A.T

[LakersRule24]

Kind of bizarre, right? I've watched just about every close Laker game the past 10 seasons, and don't remember him choking on the line like that. Interesting stuff nevertheless. What's really surprising is Dirk's conversion % down the stretch; unbelievable.
3 of those misses were in the game against the Blazers at the end of last season where he just simply could not make a free throw, very unprecedented of him. And the other miss was the season opener vs the Rockets in 07-08 where he had to purposely miss his 2nd free throw because the Lakers were down 2 with less than 2 seconds remaining with no timeouts.

But regardless of stats I'm taking Kobe in the clutch, then Melo, then Dirk.