Breakup of Jordan's Bulls: Why did Jerry Krause destroy the Bulls?

[Clippersfan86]

Ok so I just watched a few Jordan interviews and I knew these two were feuding but Jordan said he told Pippen, Rodman and the core to stay together and go for 7 or 8 rings... but Jerry wanted to break up the dynasty due to personal issues with Jordan. I know Jerry also tried to boycott Jordan's HOF induction.

I want to hear from you Bulls fans who have actually been fans in the Jordan era and maybe shed some light on this. Why would you break up a dynasty that was still at the top? I truly believe the Bulls could have 7-8 rings and so does Jordan.

[Rnbizzle]

Ok so I just watched a few Jordan interviews and I knew these two were feuding but Jordan said he told Pippen, Rodman and the core to stay together and go for 7 or 8 rings... but Jerry wanted to break up the dynasty due to personal issues with Jordan. I know Jerry also tried to boycott Jordan's HOF induction.

I want to hear from you Bulls fans who have actually been fans in the Jordan era and maybe shed some light on this. Why would you break up a dynasty that was still at the top? I truly believe the Bulls could have 7-8 rings and so does Jordan.
:lol With just Jordan believing they could have 7-8 rings I had my doubts, but with your superior authority.. Shit it must be true.

[Clippersfan86]

:lol With just Jordan believing they could have 7-8 rings I had my doubts, but with your superior authority.. Shit you must be right.

:applause: You've done a good job confusing me. Maybe my wording in the last sentence? All I meant is I definitely think they could of had another ring at least and Jordan also says that in the interview with Wilbon.

[Rnbizzle]

What was the point in adding YOU believe they could have 7-8 rings followed by jordan believing the same, seems as if you feel it adds some sort of truth to the statement.

[2LeTTeRS]

Ok so I just watched a few Jordan interviews and I knew these two were feuding but Jordan said he told Pippen, Rodman and the core to stay together and go for 7 or 8 rings... but Jerry wanted to break up the dynasty due to personal issues with Jordan. I know Jerry also tried to boycott Jordan's HOF induction.

I want to hear from you Bulls fans who have actually been fans in the Jordan era and maybe shed some light on this. Why would you break up a dynasty that was still at the top? I truly believe the Bulls could have 7-8 rings and so does Jordan.

Pip in his prime couldn't lead the Bulls to a title without MJ, and you think an old version of Pip could have?

[Clippersfan86]

Btw for those who said Pippen was equally as good/important to the Bulls as Jordan.. even Jordan's enemy Krause said this..

"Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I

[chicity89]

It basically boils down to that Krause didn't feel like he got enough credit for putting together the team. Famous quote from him is that "management wins championships" or something along those lines. He resented Jordan and Jackson (even more than anyone else).

[Clippersfan86]

Pip in his prime couldn't lead the Bulls to a title without MJ, and you think an old version of Pip could have?

Jordan was forced into retirement is the point.............. He flat out said he retired because of the circumstances in the FO. He wanted to stay a couple more years because he wasn't done or ready to retire. He only left because the dynasty was breaking up. Which explains his Wizards comeback which proved he wasn't done. To be 38/39 and average 20 ppg plus?

My comments about them winning more rings.. should clearly portray I meant WITH Jordan.

[Clippersfan86]

It basically boils down to that Krause didn't feel like he got enough credit for putting together the team. Famous quote from him is that "management wins championships" or something along those lines. He resented Jordan and Jackson (even more than anyone else).

Sounds like 3 HUGE egos clashing. Jordan, Jackson and Krause lol. I think Krause would of been better off letting Michael, Pippen, Rodman and Phil take all the credit and just be remembered as the best GM of all time when it was said and done.

[guy]

The feud wasn't just with Jordan, it was with Phil and Pippen as well. They were actually the ones that really wanted to leave cause of Krause, and Jordan would've stayed if they did.

It was really one of the most ridiculous things ever in sports. Insidehoops would've went up in flames if it was around back then. And I really don't understand why Krause gets all the blame for this. Reinsdorf LET IT HAPPEN. Krause should've been fired right away for even entertaining the idea.

Could you even imagine Jerry Buss letting Kupchak get rid of Kobe and Gasol? Or the Celtics owner letting Ainge get rid of all of the big 3 and Doc?

[Rose]

The feud wasn't just with Jordan, it was with Phil and Pippen as well. They were actually the ones that really wanted to leave cause of Krause, and Jordan would've stayed if they did.

It was really one of the most ridiculous things ever in sports. Insidehoops would've went up in flames if it was around back then. And I really don't understand why Krause gets all the blame for this. Reinsdorf LET IT HAPPEN. Krause should've been fired right away for even entertaining the idea.
This.

Although once Pippen's back went out...I'm not sure they could have won again.

[Clippersfan86]

The feud wasn't just with Jordan, it was with Phil and Pippen as well. They were actually the ones that really wanted to leave cause of Krause, and Jordan would've stayed if they did.

It was really one of the most ridiculous things ever in sports. Insidehoops would've went up in flames if it was around back then. And I really don't understand why Krause gets all the blame for this. Reinsdorf LET IT HAPPEN. Krause should've been fired right away for even entertaining the idea.

So in general do you feel the entire FO should be blamed rather than the pawn Krause? I just found this video all of you should check out if you have 21 minutes (2 parts youtube). It's called "Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty?". It's a Sportscenter special.

It investigates all the details and hears all sides of the story from players, coaches, opposing players and coaches, other GM's opinions of Krause and the dynasty etc. Seems like a ton of people are saying Krause had a nasty ego. Brilliant mind to build the team.. but also went mad because he wanted more recognition.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHK9w8i8Seg&feature=related


Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjObWm8f-E&feature=related

Edit: Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf speaks in the videos too. It's super interesting and worth watching.

[2LeTTeRS]

It basically boils down to that Krause didn't feel like he got enough credit for putting together the team. Famous quote from him is that "management wins championships" or something along those lines. He resented Jordan and Jackson (even more than anyone else).

Honestly what personnel moves did Krause make that stood out? I always thought Krause was overrated, none of his draft picks really panned out (although they were at the end of the round) and besides dealing Perdue for Rodman I don't remember him making any other big trades.

[guy]

This.

Although once Pippen's back went out...I'm not sure they could have won again.

True but they would've at least contended. You don't trade in contending team for a title and arguably the greatest draw in Sports history for a lottery team led by Toni Kukoc and Elton Brand.

[SFMF]

Don't forget.... 98-99 was a lockout. I do believe the Bulls had a good chance at another championship.

[Clippersfan86]

Don't forget.... 98-99 was a lockout. I do believe the Bulls had a good chance at another championship.

True would of been even easier for the Bulls to win a 4th in a row. In this video it says that the Bulls had literally 10 contracts coming off the books after the final championship and it would of been impossible to keep it together. Reinsdorf could of at least kept together the main guys?

It seems like Pippen was as big of a problem as Krause. Immature and money hungry? I guess he blew up on a team bus demanding a trade. He wanted to make a name for himself outside of Jordan. I guess he wanted a bigger contract. Krause sat him down and told him to wait to sign a contract extension until the new cap is set and Pippen said I don't care I want the long term security now. Within a couple seasons after new caps were set.. Pippen was the 5th highest paid player on the Bulls and demanded a trade because he felt he was worth more.

Now it's also saying Phil Jackson orchestrated the collapse of the Bulls dynasty by motivating his players to turn on the Bulls FO. The players were saying he constantly motivated them by using Jerry Krause because they all had a common hatred for him.

[Gotterdammerung]

Krause retired in 2003, citing obesity, and is now a scout for the Chicago White Sox. Which was his old position in the 70's. The more things change...

Yes, he was convinced that the Bulls' success was due to his superior organizational skills, not the players or the coach. :facepalm

At the same time, it would have been hard to re-sign everyone without detonating the salary cap.

[Clippersfan86]

Man this is such an interesting story. So much drama... so many egos. Now on part 2... it's showing the flip side. How Jordan was responsible for the breakup. I guess he was constantly demonizing and personally attacking Krause. Pippen said that Jordan would randomly insult Krause on the team bus. Call him fatass etc.

So the number 1 reason Krause isn't to blame according to this ESPN Classic special is Michael Jordan. His hatred for Krause and ego are supposedly equally as responsible for the destruction of the Bulls dynasty.

I should of titled this "Who destroyed the Bulls dynasty?"

[Sarcastic]

Don't forget.... 98-99 was a lockout. I do believe the Bulls had a good chance at another championship.

This. I think the Bulls would have beaten the Spurs if they were given the chance to do so. By 2000 however, the Lakers were ready to win. Then again they probably wouldn't have had Phil Jackson as their coach, so who knows.

[dee-rose]

It was ugly behind the scenes, but it was actually a perfect finish. Jordan was showing signs of being human, and after Pippens back went out, I really don't think we would have won another one. Alot of it had to do with Pippen's problems with Krause but Phil Jackson was the real mastermind behind the players tension with the Krause and the rest of management. He could have easily just taken managements side, but it became a battle of egos and Phil often used the managements mistreatment of the team as a way to unite and motivate them. Krause was a douchey egomaniac who believed it was more about the organization then the players, and in some cases (spurs) it is, but in this case it wasn't. It sort of became an MJ/Phil vs. Krause battle, and in the end Krause wanted to prove he could build a contender without MJ. He obviously failed. At the end of the day, it all worked out and MJ ended up having a fairytale of a career. Everytime I hear PJ say "what a finish" after MJ's last shot, it's a reminder that the end was inevitable, because Phil wanted out, not Pippen.

As for all the Pippen demanding a trade stuff, all of that happened after Krause tried to trade him and when it almost happened, MJ told Krause that he'd retire again if Pippen was traded. Honestly, if Phil would have stayed, MJ wouldn't have retired, and they might have another ring to their name... or they might have been knocked out by a team led by a rookie.

[chicity89]

Honestly what personnel moves did Krause make that stood out? I always thought Krause was overrated, none of his draft picks really panned out (although they were at the end of the round) and besides dealing Perdue for Rodman I don't remember him making any other big trades.

The only thing that I think was notable was when he traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright. The Bulls needed a center to put them over the top and that definitely helped. However, I'm not saying I supported how Krause felt or what he did was something of genius. I will always resent him for breaking up the team that I grew up watching night in and night out. The thing I'm saying is that he felt like he deserved more credit and didn't get it, wrong or not. At the end of the day the players are the ones who went out there and busted their asses and brought this city almost a decade of excellence. Jerry Krause wasn't the one on the floor.

[Rose]

So in general do you feel the entire FO should be blamed rather than the pawn Krause? I just found this video all of you should check out if you have 21 minutes (2 parts youtube). It's called "Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty?". It's a Sportscenter special.

It investigates all the details and hears all sides of the story from players, coaches, opposing players and coaches, other GM's opinions of Krause and the dynasty etc. Seems like a ton of people are saying Krause had a nasty ego. Brilliant mind to build the team.. but also went mad because he wanted more recognition.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHK9w8i8Seg&feature=related


Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjObWm8f-E&feature=related

Edit: Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf speaks in the videos too. It's super interesting and worth watching.

Just watched. Disagree with #1. Jordan was open that if Phil stayed, he stays. I think they should flip 1 and 2.

[Clippersfan86]

It was ugly behind the scenes, but it was actually a perfect finish. Jordan was showing signs of being human, and after Pippens back went out, I really don't think we would have won another one. Alot of it had to do with Pippen's problems with Krause but Phil Jackson was the real mastermind behind the players tension with the Krause and the rest of management. He could have easily just taken managements side, but it became a battle of egos and Phil often used the managements mistreatment of the team as a way to unite and motivate them. Krause was a douchey egomaniac who believed it was more about the organization then the players, and in some cases (spurs) it is, but in this case it wasn't. It sort of became an MJ/Phil vs. Krause battle, and in the end Krause wanted to prove he could build a contender without MJ. He obviously failed. At the end of the day, it all worked out and MJ ended up having a fairytale of a career. Everytime I hear PJ say "what a finish" after MJ's last shot, it's a reminder that the end was inevitable, because Phil wanted out, not Pippen.

Sounds like it was a very complex situation. Lots of issues. Is it any surprise Phil had a similar situation with Kobe and Shaq? Pitting their egos against each other? He sure likes to manipulate.

[Clippersfan86]

Just watched. Disagree with #1. Jordan was open that if Phil stayed, he stays. I think they should flip 1 and 2.

Part 1? Or number 1 of part two?

[dee-rose]

Sounds like it was a very complex situation. Lots of issues. Is it any surprise Phil had a similar situation with Kobe and Shaq? Pitting their egos against each other? He sure likes to manipulate.
Yup. Phil truly is a mastermind. The whole organization, including the players became puppets under him imo, I won't complain tho, it all worked out.:lol

[Rose]

True but they would've at least contended. You don't trade in contending team for a title and arguably the greatest draw in Sports history for a lottery team led by Toni Kukoc and Elton Brand.
Well I don't think think they would have really contended either. Phil was tired of coaching which is why he took that break, and later the Lakers break. I think personally, Phil was gone regardless, but they could have found another coach and then who knows from that perspective.

But Jordan was becoming more human, and Pippen was a different player, that was Rodman's last notable season if I'm not mistaken, so they'd needed to have re-tooled.

[Rose]

Part 1? Or number 1 of part two?
Number one of part two. Should have clarified.

[Clippersfan86]

Yup. Phil truly is a mastermind. The whole organization, including the players became puppets under him imo, I won't complain tho, it all worked out.:lol

Same with the Lakers haha. He made it work for 3 rings with Kobe and Shaq and 2 after. Btw... is it normal to almost feel pity for the Bulls opponents? I can't help but think how sucky it is that Gary Payton's Sonics and Malone and Stockton's Jazz just got very very unlucky in losing 2 times a piece to the Bulls in the finals. Had they played in any other era... they would have rings. Michael Jordan and the Bulls were heartbreakers lol.

Edit: Sorry Jazz twice.. Sonics once.

[Clippersfan86]

Number one of part two. Should have clarified.

NP assumed you meant that. Phil repeated the mind games of causing ego clashes for the Lakers too lol. Remember like in his books he would bash his players while they still played for him even to motivate etc? He sure likes controlling the minds of his players.

[Rose]

Same with the Lakers haha. He made it work for 3 rings with Kobe and Shaq and 2 after. Btw... is it normal to almost feel pity for the Bulls opponents? I can't help but think how sucky it is that Gary Payton's Sonics and Malone and Stockton's Jazz just got very very unlucky in losing 2 times a piece to the Bulls in the finals. Had they played in any other era... they would have rings. Michael Jordan and the Bulls were heartbreakers lol.
I still think the Sonics could have won if Glove had played on Jordan for more time than besides the first two games. He flustered the hell out of him, when he was on him.

[dee-rose]

Well I don't think think they would have really contended either. Phil was tired of coaching which is why he took that break, and later the Lakers break. I think personally, Phil was gone regardless, but they could have found another coach and then who knows from that perspective.

But Jordan was becoming more human, and Pippen was a different player, that was Rodman's last notable season if I'm not mistaken, so they'd needed to have re-tooled.

I think we should have re-tooled, in hindsight, because even to this day, players remember what the organization did. I think in a different documentary I watched (haven't watched this one yet so it might be here too) KG said something like "why would I wanna play for an organization that treated the greatest player of all time like that? Imagine how they'd treat me" and that was the real stinger. NOBODY would even touch the bulls, even though they had cap space, came off a bunch of rings, and were in a market that loves basketball like Chicago. Everyone says it's because of Jordans shadow, but that's so far off. It's so much less about Jordans shadow and more about what the FO did back then..

[Rose]

NP assumed you meant that. Phil repeated the mind games of causing ego clashes for the Lakers too lol. Remember like in his books he would bash his players while they still played for him even to motivate etc? He sure likes controlling the minds of his players.
I haven't read one of his books yet. I want too though, I probably will in the summer when I have the time. My thing is, he gets tired of figuring out how to control the egos, so he takes a couple years off.

[Clippersfan86]

I still think the Sonics could have won if Glove had played on Jordan for more time than besides the first two games. He flustered the hell out of him, when he was on him.

:cheers: . 2 minute interview for you Rose. It's Payton talking about that series.. and how he wanted to guard Jordan more but George Karl didn't let him. Man I forget how much I loved The Glove. One of those unique players who will never be replicated. A defense first PG who could guard 1-3 but also an efficient Tony Parker type scorer and great passer. Only defensive minded PG of this last decade is Rondo and he doesn't have shit on Payton. Payton was also a very big PG at a legit 6'4 200 pounds which back in the 90's was a huge guard. Hell even now that's a big PG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ryMgGogyo&feature=related

[Rose]

I think we should have re-tooled, in hindsight, because even to this day, players remember what the organization did. I think in a different documentary I watched (haven't watched this one yet so it might be here too) KG said something like "why would I wanna play for an organization that treated the greatest player of all time like that? Imagine how they'd treat me" and that was the real stinger. NOBODY would even touch the bulls, even though they had cap space, came off a bunch of rings, and were in a market that loves basketball like Chicago. Everyone says it's because of Jordans shadow, but that's so far off. It's so much less about Jordans shadow and more about what the FO did back then..
I've heard about the KG quote. here's the thing, If the Admiral hadn't wanted to win another ring with Timmy, Timmy might have come to the Bulls. Because I've read, and kind of agree with it, that Him and T-mac had a deal that they'd both come to Chicago and win rings. But(this I know for a fact) that the Admiral called him and BEGGED AND PLEADED with Duncan to come back to San Antonio, while he was visiting Orlando. And so out of respect, Duncan did.

Tracy's ALWAYS wanted to a Bull since 2000, so that's why I believe that rumor. Like in 08 when the Rockets were looking to trade him he said in a post game against the Jazz that he wanted to a Bull.:oldlol: Plus last offseason.

[dee-rose]

Same with the Lakers haha. He made it work for 3 rings with Kobe and Shaq and 2 after. Btw... is it normal to almost feel pity for the Bulls opponents? I can't help but think how sucky it is that Gary Payton's Sonics and Malone and Stockton's Jazz just got very very unlucky in losing 2 times a piece to the Bulls in the finals. Had they played in any other era... they would have rings. Michael Jordan and the Bulls were heartbreakers lol.

Edit: Sorry Jazz twice.. Sonics once.
TBH, those teams didn't lack the talent at all. They always had some intangible problems (Malone choking), the sonics were a team that weren't as talented but really could have beat the bulls if they made a few changes, like Rose said, keeping Payton on MJ for the whole series. I don't think I've ever seen MJ so bothered by defense in the playoffs. It wasn't the watered down 90's, the bulls were just that much better then everyone else. They really did destroy legacies. Miami's best team ever couldn't even get to the finals because of them. Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley never got rings because of the total dominance that the bulls had that decade.

[Rose]

:cheers: . 2 minute interview for you Rose. It's Payton talking about that series.. and how he wanted to guard Jordan more but George Karl didn't let him. Man I forget how much I loved The Glove. One of those unique players who will never be replicated. A defense first PG who could guard 1-3 but also an efficient Tony Parker type scorer and great passer. Only defensive minded PG of this last decade is Rondo and he doesn't have shit on Payton. Payton was also a very big PG at a legit 6'4 200 pounds which back in the 90's was a huge guard. Hell even now that's a big PG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ryMgGogyo&feature=related
I've seen that before. It's pretty informative. For some reason Karl wanted to keep switching him on and off Jordan so that way he wouldn't have figured him out. But even in the later games of the series, Jordan still was struggling.

[Clippersfan86]

TBH, those teams didn't lack the talent at all. They always had some intangible problems (Malone choking), the sonics were a team that weren't as talented but really could have beat the bulls if they made a few changes, like Rose said, keeping Payton on MJ for the whole series. I don't think I've ever seen MJ so bothered by defense in the playoffs. It wasn't the watered down 90's, the bulls were just that much better then everyone else. They really did destroy legacies. Miami's best team ever couldn't even get to the finals because of them. Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley never got rings because of the total dominance that the bulls had that decade.

That's why I called the Bulls heartbreakers. They tarnished a lot of careers and broke a lot of dreams by denying great great teams of rings during that dynasty. :bowdown: :cry:

[dee-rose]

The worst part about all these documentaries, although I JUST started watching this one, is that they make it seem like Phil suddenly just retired. The whole city, the whole team and FO, and every NBA fan that followed the bulls closely, knew that he was gone after this season. He called it the last dance, and told the players to enjoy it, because it would be the last time they went down that path together. Everyone knew it was coming to an end but all these shows make it look like Phil suddenly decided to kill the team, and Pippen threw a tantrum.

[dee-rose]

I've heard about the KG quote. here's the thing, If the Admiral hadn't wanted to win another ring with Timmy, Timmy might have come to the Bulls. Because I've read, and kind of agree with it, that Him and T-mac had a deal that they'd both come to Chicago and win rings. But(this I know for a fact) that the Admiral called him and BEGGED AND PLEADED with Duncan to come back to San Antonio, while he was visiting Orlando. And so out of respect, Duncan did.

Tracy's ALWAYS wanted to a Bull since 2000, so that's why I believe that rumor. Like in 08 when the Rockets were looking to trade him he said in a post game against the Jazz that he wanted to a Bull.:oldlol: Plus last offseason.

I don't know about Tim... I never heard about that, and Timmy seems like a loyal guy. It wouldn't make sense leaving such a great organization to goto one in complete turmoil. I'm sure if he actually decided to go that T-mac would have been right behind him. As for T-mac, I never mentioned him, cuz I don't think he didn't choose Chicago because of the FO. Thing is, he went to Orlando, and if he was gonna have to carry a team, he might as well carry the team that he grew up watching and be back home. Whether or not it was something that T-mac was thinking, I really think it was a thought that would have had to effect all the free agents that the bulls pursued, even up to this summer. (Wades comments on loyalty, and I remember reading that FO straight up told Lebron he wouldn't be allowed to bring his entourage everywhere and make the bulls his ***** like he did with the cavs, and that MJ wasn't allowed to do those things either) I dunno, I feel like that sort of stuff can stick to a player, it's gotta be huge when deciding where to play.

[Rose]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.

[Crown&Coke]

the team couldn't possibly pay all those guys.

Jordan was coming off a 90 million, 3 year deal. He was looking for another 30 million a year to come back.

Pip went and got an 8 figure a year deal with Houston over 5 years.

Rodman was looking to get paid after what he felt like was a below market value contract.

Phil Jackson was looking to get paid.

Im not saying there wasn't ego's involved, but the money wouldn't have worked out no matter how well you work the salary cap.

Krause was an egomaniac who wanted more credit. He had a great eye for talent but poor "people skills." Phil Jackson detested how maniacal he was and how underhanded he was.

[Clippersfan86]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.

So Krause was still GM when you guys foolishly traded us 21 year old Elton Brand for HS star/rookie Tyson Chandler? Why the hell would you trade a co ROY for a rookie out of HS on draft day night? In hindsight.. I would of preferred Chandler knowing what Elton did.. BUT he did give us 7 very good and productive years including an amazing playoff run.

[Rose]

I don't know about Tim... I never heard about that, and Timmy seems like a loyal guy. It wouldn't make sense leaving such a great organization to goto one in complete turmoil. I'm sure if he actually decided to go that T-mac would have been right behind him. As for T-mac, I never mentioned him, cuz I don't think he didn't choose Chicago because of the FO. Thing is, he went to Orlando, and if he was gonna have to carry a team, he might as well carry the team that he grew up watching and be back home. Whether or not it was something that T-mac was thinking, I really think it was a thought that would have had to effect all the free agents that the bulls pursued, even up to this summer. (Wades comments on loyalty, and I remember reading that FO straight up told Lebron he wouldn't be allowed to bring his entourage everywhere and make the bulls his ***** like he did with the cavs, and that MJ wasn't allowed to do those things either) I dunno, I feel like that sort of stuff can stick to a player, it's gotta be huge when deciding where to play.
Yeah I can see your side, I just think it's interesting.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-070610 Here's Stein talking about it

http://sports.jrank.org/pages/3956/Robinson-David-Twin-Towers.html And a less credible site saying what I'm saying.

[Rose]

So Krause was still GM when you guys foolishly traded us 21 year old Elton Brand for HS star/rookie Tyson Chandler? Why the hell would you trade a co ROY for a rookie out of HS on draft day night? In hindsight.. I would of preferred Chandler knowing what Elton did.. BUT he did give us 7 very good and productive years including an amazing playoff run.
Because he thought they'd be a younger version of the Spurs twin towers. With Curry being the offensive dynamite, and Chandler being a great low post defender. Great idea! just the wrong players.

[dee-rose]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.
The draft picks were a huge fail, but it didn't really help us that we had a million picks in probably the worst draft of the decade. One of the huge kickers was that we traded Pipp for a freaking second round pick. Great management right there. Pippen wasn't an all star anymore after that injury but he wasn't some scrub either. The biggest problems we had were patience with rookies, coaching and image. Honestly, if we had stuck with Elton Brand and hired someone, say, not named Tim freaking Floyd, then the bulls could have been a completely different team.

[Clippersfan86]

Because he thought they'd be a younger version of the Spurs twin towers. With Curry being the offensive dynamite, and Chandler being a great low post defender. Great idea! just the wrong players.

Hmm.... Just seems weird. Trade an established up and coming star for an unknown drafted out of HS rookie. In sports you ALWAYS take the sure thing over the gamble if you're in rebuilding mode. If you already have nice pieces you can afford the gamble.. but if you're young and don't have much talent it's stupid to make a high risk move like that.

[Rose]

The draft picks were a huge fail, but it didn't really help us that we had a million picks in probably the worst draft of the decade. One of the huge kickers was that we traded Pipp for a freaking second round pick. Great management right there. Pippen wasn't an all star anymore after that injury but he wasn't some scrub either. The biggest problems we had were patience with rookies, coaching and image. Honestly, if we had stuck with Elton Brand and hired someone, say, not named Tim freaking Floyd, then the bulls could have been a completely different team.
Well we had a shitload of picks those first two years, Brand/Curry, Tyson, Crawford, Williams(who I think would have been great), Fizer, Some foreign guy that never played, Artest. from like 2000-02 we had like 12. They were just shitty drafts. Agreed about the Floyd thing. Good college coach, turrible NBA coach. Brand+williams would have been ****ing great.

[dee-rose]

Hmm.... Just seems weird. Trade an established up and coming star for an unknown drafted out of HS rookie. In sports you ALWAYS take the sure thing over the gamble if you're in rebuilding mode. If you already have nice pieces you can afford the gamble.. but if you're young and don't have much talent it's stupid to make a high risk move like that.
I think Krause really thought he'd win out on the gamble, and that when he did, people would look at him like he was some basketball genius. It all really comes down to his ego.

EDIT: Gotta love Reinsdorfs comments on how we would have been mediocre if we resigned everyone again? WTF were we doing after all those guys left? Winning championships or something? :facepalm:

[Rose]

Hmm.... Just seems weird. Trade an established up and coming star for an unknown drafted out of HS rookie. In sports you ALWAYS take the sure thing over the gamble if you're in rebuilding mode. If you already have nice pieces you can afford the gamble.. but if you're young and don't have much talent it's stupid to make a high risk move like that.
I think at the time, Tyson was compared to KG, which defensively, he arguably is. But offensively.:facepalm

Unrelated:but IMO the reason why Curry/Chandler/Kwame etc etc were all busts, NONE of them had post games in high school really. Hell Curry just used his brute strength to play even in the NBA. I mean watch footage of their rookie years and compare them to now. Same exact offensive moves.

[dee-rose]

Well we had a shitload of picks those first two years, Brand/Curry, Tyson, Crawford, Williams(who I think would have been great), Fizer, Some foreign guy that never played, Artest. from like 2000-02 we had like 12. They were just shitty drafts. Agreed about the Floyd thing. Good college coach, turrible NBA coach. Brand+williams would have been ****ing great.
****ing motorcycles.:facepalm :(

Better coaching could have really developed Chandler, kept Artest and Williams and if we kept Brand, BOOM, good team right there.

[Clippersfan86]

I think Krause really thought he'd win out on the gamble, and that when he did, people would look at him like he was some basketball genius. It all really comes down to his ego.

EDIT: Gotta love Reinsdorfs comments on how we would have been mediocre if we resigned everyone again? WTF were we doing after all those guys left? Winning championships or something? :facepalm:

Haha yea I noticed those comments and chuckled. Even if your players are in their mid 30's.. they are established 3 time defending champs you don't break it up. Michael was still the best even at 36 years old. Chemistry>talent. Look at the recent Lakers and Celtics? Among oldest teams in the league.. compete for title every year.

[Rose]

****ing motorcycles.:facepalm :(

Better coaching could have really developed Chandler, kept Artest and Williams and if we kept Brand, BOOM, good team right there.
No kidding. We probably could have won a title right there. The Bulls/Pistons rivalry would have been intense as hell again too.:(

Keep in mind though Brand was trading for Chandler.

[caliman]

Honestly what personnel moves did Krause make that stood out? I always thought Krause was overrated, none of his draft picks really panned out (although they were at the end of the round) and besides dealing Perdue for Rodman I don't remember him making any other big trades.



Well he did draft Pippen and Grant, trade for Cartwright, and surround MJ with clutch shooters like Paxson, Armstrong and Kerr.

[dee-rose]

I think at the time, Tyson was compared to KG, which defensively, he arguably is. But offensively.:facepalm

Unrelated:but IMO the reason why Curry/Chandler/Kwame etc etc were all busts, NONE of them had post games in high school really. Hell Curry just used his brute strength to play even in the NBA. I mean watch footage of their rookie years and compare them to now. Same exact offensive moves.
Yea, but think about Dwight too. Athletic freak with no moves, but it obviously translated into the NBA. For guys like KG though, you could always tell he had grace and offensive ability. His passing ability, even back then, was pretty ridiculous.

[Clippersfan86]

****ing motorcycles.:facepalm :(

Better coaching could have really developed Chandler, kept Artest and Williams and if we kept Brand, BOOM, good team right there.

Man... we can't forget Jay Williams. Fu**ing idiot for ruining his own career like that.

[Rose]

Yea, but think about Dwight too. Athletic freak with no moves, but it obviously translated into the NBA. For guys like KG though, you could always tell he had grace and offensive ability. His passing ability, even back then, was pretty ridiculous.
True. Dwight had a good coach in Ewing though, eventually. Also KG started out as a small forward, and then grew like 5 inches.:lol

[dee-rose]

No kidding. We probably could have won a title right there. The Bulls/Pistons rivalry would have been intense as hell again too.:(

Keep in mind though Brand was trading for Chandler.
Oh yeah my bad. But hey, we got a unicorn now.:rockon:

[Rose]

Oh yeah my bad. But hey, we got a unicorn now.:rockon:
HELL YEAH!:banana:

This was actually a pretty intellectual discussion for once.:lol

[dee-rose]

Haha yea I noticed those comments and chuckled. Even if your players are in their mid 30's.. they are established 3 time defending champs you don't break it up. Michael was still the best even at 36 years old. Chemistry>talent. Look at the recent Lakers and Celtics? Among oldest teams in the league.. compete for title every year.

I dunno about chemistry > talent, or even talent > chemistry. It's a combination of things. Malone and Stockton had amazing chemistry but couldn't overcome the talent of the bulls, and then there's the opposite with the pistons vs. lakers. Those are the obvious ones, atleast.

God, part 2 is so far off about Pippen being the reason the bulls broke up.:facepalm

[dee-rose]

HELL YEAH!:banana:

This was actually a pretty intellectual discussion for once.:lol
Yeah, gotta troll extra hard tonight to make up for it.:roll:

[Rose]

Yeah, gotta troll extra hard tonight to make up for it.:roll:
YOURE RIGHT!

I'll make a We still Da Bess thread.:oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

I dunno about chemistry > talent, or even talent > chemistry. It's a combination of things. Malone and Stockton had amazing chemistry but couldn't overcome the talent of the bulls, and then there's the opposite with the pistons vs. lakers. Those are the obvious ones, atleast.

God, part 2 is so far off about Pippen being the reason the bulls broke up.:facepalm

Gotta have both.. but I feel chemistry is slightly more valuable. Even Phil Jackson has spoken on that regarding Heat vs Lakers recently. BTW the video is counting down all of the reasons by rank. It's saying all of those combined basically are why Krause can't be blamed. First video is why Krause IS to blame. It's showing you both sides of the story.

[dee-rose]

One thing though, I'll never never never blame anything on Pippen. This guy sacrificed everything for the bulls to win, he sacrificed more then any Bull, including MJ, in terms of money, role on the team, and credit. I'm so glad he's back with the bulls and getting some money.:lol

[Rose]

One thing though, I'll never never never blame anything on Pippen. This guy sacrificed everything for the bulls to win, he sacrificed more then any Bull, including MJ, in terms of money, role on the team, and credit. I'm so glad he's back with the bulls and getting some money.:lol
If I made the NBA, I'd be just like Pip, First rings, then gimme dat money foo!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Clippersfan86]

If I made the NBA, I'd be just like Pip, First rings, then gimme dat money foo!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:lol . Have your cake and eat it too FTW! He was a 35 year old wanting a fat contract haha.

[dee-rose]

:lol . Have your cake and eat it too FTW! He was a 35 year old wanting a fat contract haha.
:lol Can't really blame the guy though. IMO he could have led the bulls to a chip without MJ, in one of those 6 years and could've been a max money type of a player.

[Rose]

:lol . Have your cake and eat it too FTW! He was a 35 year old wanting a fat contract haha.
I know, and he STILL got it, granted houston was fooled by his health, although I do think that that if Barkley hadn't gotten injured they may have won.

[Clippersfan86]

I know, and he STILL got it, granted houston was fooled by his health, although I do think that that if Barkley hadn't gotten injured they may have won.

LOL. It's crazy how much he fell off after his final Bulls season. Houston traded his ass to Portland after 1 year because he was a big disappointment.

[Dengness9]

Krause was a snake and a pathetically jealous person.

If you ever get a chance OP, read the book "The Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith


It gives untouchable insight to all the problems between Krause, Reinsdorf, MJ, Pip, Phil, and even others like Horace Grant and other role players.

There were many problems between ownership, management, and the players stemming all the way back to late 80's and in the early 90's as well.

The amount of money Pippen and MJ were getting paid for most of the years on the Bulls was HIGHWAY ROBBERY due to serious inflation of max contracts after they signed their contracts before the CBA changed everything. Hence MJ getting 30 mil for 1 season, and hence Pippen being severely underpaid as well leading to Pip's animosity towards the Bulls orginization.

So much more I could go on about but you gotta read the Jordan Rules!!!!!!

Unreal book. Unreal insight.

[Clippersfan86]

Krause was a snake and a pathetically jealous person.

If you ever get a chance OP, read the book "The Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith


It gives untouchable insight to all the problems between Krause, Reinsdorf, MJ, Pip, Phil, and even others like Horace Grant and other role players.

There were many problems between ownership, management, and the players stemming all the way back to late 80's and in the early 90's as well.

The amount of money Pippen and MJ were getting paid for most of the years on the Bulls was HIGHWAY ROBBERY due to serious inflation of max contracts after they signed their contracts before the CBA changed everything. Hence MJ getting 30 mil for 1 season, and hence Pippen being severely underpaid as well leading to Pip's animosity towards the Bulls orginization.

So much more I could go on about but you gotta read the Jordan Rules!!!!!!

Unreal book. Unreal insight.

Sounds like a must read. I'll see if I can pick it up. Thanks.

[caliman]

The amount of money Pippen and MJ were getting paid for most of the years on the Bulls was HIGHWAY ROBBERY due to serious inflation of max contracts after they signed their contracts before the CBA changed everything. Hence MJ getting 30 mil for 1 season, and hence Pippen being severely underpaid as well leading to Pip's animosity towards the Bulls orginization.



Pippen being underpaid all those years is entirely on Pippen. People told him not to sign a contract before the CBA changed. I believe this was around 1990 or 91. Instead he wanted the security of a contract before that. Too bad for him that the CBA changed immediately after and he was left looking the fool.

Everyone advised him not to sign that contract, even his agent. Pip didn't listen.

[97 bulls]

The worst part about all these documentaries, although I JUST started watching this one, is that they make it seem like Phil suddenly just retired. The whole city, the whole team and FO, and every NBA fan that followed the bulls closely, knew that he was gone after this season. He called it the last dance, and told the players to enjoy it, because it would be the last time they went down that path together. Everyone knew it was coming to an end but all these shows make it look like Phil suddenly decided to kill the team, and Pippen threw a tantrum.
This was beacause karause made it very clear he wasn't keeping the team as it was constructed..

[97 bulls]

Pippen being underpaid all those years is entirely on Pippen. People told him not to sign a contract before the CBA changed. I believe this was around 1990 or 91. Instead he wanted the security of a contract before that. Too bad for him that the CBA changed immediately after and he was left looking the fool.

Everyone advised him not to sign that contract, even his agent. Pip didn't listen.
Your correct. But I think pippen was hurt that kukoc was getting paid more than he was. The bulls could've renegotiated his contract and pay him according to what he was worth.

[Clippersfan86]

Your correct. But I think pippen was hurt that kukoc was getting paid more than he was. The bulls could've renegotiated his contract and pay him according to what he was worth.

If your boss warned you that if you wait a year or two you'd be up for a huge raise.. and told you to wait for more money... then you said no I want security now and took a smaller raise/bonus.. Would you be justified to get mad at him later when other co workers are making way more than you under new terms/larger income?

I'd tell him.. We all warned you and gave you a heads up that's on you!

[97 bulls]

If your boss warned you that if you wait a year or two you'd be up for a huge raise.. and told you to wait for more money... then you said no I want security now and took a smaller raise/bonus.. Would you be justified to get mad at him later when other co workers are making way more than you under new terms/larger income?

I'd tell him.. We all warned you and gave you a heads up that's on you!
Hey, it was a dumb move from pippen. But I do think they could renegotiated his contract and pay him what he was worth.

[Clippersfan86]

Hey, it was a dumb move from pippen. But I do think they could renegotiated his contract and pay him what he was worth.

I understand that for sure. Just saying he kind of put himself in that position to be the 5th highest paid player on the Bulls. His greed cost him.

[97 bulls]

Im also positive they would've beaten the spurs in 99. People act like the bulls were weak in 98. But forget that they were tied with utah for best record in the league with 62 wins and that's with pippen missing half the season and jordan playing with torn ligaments in his shooting finger. A healthy pippen would've gotton them aroun 67 wins. And don't forget they set the record in the finals by beating the jazz 96-54.

And just look at that spurs team.

Avery johnson whho was a career cba player
antonio daniels who was a bust considering he was a number 2 pick
sean elliot who came back from a bad kidney
duncan
David robinson who was older.

And their sixth man was mario elie who also was a career journeymen cba player.

[Dengness9]

Pippen being underpaid all those years is entirely on Pippen. People told him not to sign a contract before the CBA changed. I believe this was around 1990 or 91. Instead he wanted the security of a contract before that. Too bad for him that the CBA changed immediately after and he was left looking the fool.

Everyone advised him not to sign that contract, even his agent. Pip didn't listen.

I agree with you mostly. But it was more complex than that. I have a hard time blaming Pippen for wanting long term security. It's no secret Pip isn't the smartest guy and on top of that came from a POOR rural area and that shouldn't be held against him even if everyone was telling him not to sign the contract.

It was a heartbreaking decision for Pip before and after.

But as someone already said here, Pippens real animosity came from the fact that Krause wouldn't even talk about restructuring a deal. And Krause didn't just completely ignore Pips request about restructuring, he was cocky in denying Pippen of this.

It would be one thing if Scottie Pippen was just some regular star player who unjustly wanted a raise just because, but Pip was the robin to Batman in a 6 title dynasty.

To say Pip was underappreciated is an understatement of epic proportions.

As a life long die hard Bulls fan, I am so pleased in the bottom of my heart that Pippen is back good with the Org, and is on the payroll as the Bulls official team spokesman.

[Mr. Incredible]

Im also positive they would've beaten the spurs in 99. People act like the bulls were weak in 98. But forget that they were tied with utah for best record in the league with 62 wins and that's with pippen missing half the season and jordan playing with torn ligaments in his shooting finger. A healthy pippen would've gotton them aroun 67 wins. And don't forget they set the record in the finals by beating the jazz 96-54.

And just look at that spurs team.

Avery johnson whho was a career cba player
antonio daniels who was a bust considering he was a number 2 pick
sean elliot who came back from a bad kidney
duncan
David robinson who was older.

And their sixth man was mario elie who also was a career journeymen cba player.They definitely would of beaten the Spurs in 99.

[-23-]

One guaranteed championship woulda have been 99'. There is no way MJ loses to those spurs.

[Harion]

wow. 5 stars for this thread. and props to everyone. :applause: it's rare i read such a thread here on ISH. it's amazing how minus the trolls, a thread can be this good to read. :applause:

[Clippersfan86]

wow. 5 stars for this thread. and props to everyone. :applause: it's rare i read such a thread here on ISH. it's amazing how minus the trolls, a thread can be this good to read. :applause:

:applause:. Agree. For whatever reason this thread only attracted true basketball minds and fans and we had absolutely 0 trolls in here. I think it's because trolls don't know enough about basketball to get involved in this one about the Bulls dynasty :lol .

[Rose]

wow. 5 stars for this thread. and props to everyone. :applause: it's rare i read such a thread here on ISH. it's amazing how minus the trolls, a thread can be this good to read. :applause:
Shhh....this is our secret lair, we're now going to talk about other stuff in here and cover it up.:lol

[Clippersfan86]

Shhh....this is our secret lair, we're now going to talk about other stuff in here and cover it up.:lol

We shall take turns bumping it with random banter/topics. The mods here aren't around much anyways so doubt they will lock it for a while! :cheers:

[Dengness9]

:cheers:

[10x91= 5 Rings]

"I don't care if it's 82-0 this year,you're ****ing gone."

All 7 sins in one sentence,that`s the Jerry Krause legacy.Well maybe just five,but u get my point.

[97 bulls]

"I don't care if it's 82-0 this year,you're ****ing gone."

All 7 sins in one sentence,that`s the Jerry Krause legacy.Well maybe just five,but u get my point.
Lol I remeber that statement. Classic

[Clippersfan86]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2010/08/time-for-bulls-to-bury-the-hatchet-with-krause.html

Short, good article. I guess Krause tried to trade Pippen twice..

[DStebb716]

Pip in his prime couldn't lead the Bulls to a title without MJ, and you think an old version of Pip could have?

If you took out MJ, and put in another solid role player, I think they still would've won a few. Pippen could have been a lead man in many places.

[97 bulls]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2010/08/time-for-bulls-to-bury-the-hatchet-with-krause.html

Short, good article. I guess Krause tried to trade Pippen twice..
I remeber he tried to sabotage the bulls. I think he believed that with pippen hurt the bulls would struggle in the 98 season and when they didnt, he traded jason caffey a solid role player who was avg 13 and 8 as a starter when rodman was hurt or suspend. And like 9 and 6 on 53% shooting overall. He traded him for dickey simpkins. A bonafide scrub/garbage player. A trade that in no way shape of form, made sense.

I remeber when they interviewed jordan he said that caffey called him and his reply was "jason what's wrong? Don't tell me he traded you". Like it was an us against them thing.

The only team that could beat the bulls was the bulls management

[Rose]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2010/08/time-for-bulls-to-bury-the-hatchet-with-krause.html

Short, good article. I guess Krause tried to trade Pippen twice..
Yeah he tried trading him for T-Mac in the draft, but Jordan said if he did...he would have retired again.:oldlol:

[Blzrfn]

Im also positive they would've beaten the spurs in 99. People act like the bulls were weak in 98. But forget that they were tied with utah for best record in the league with 62 wins and that's with pippen missing half the season and jordan playing with torn ligaments in his shooting finger. A healthy pippen would've gotton them aroun 67 wins. And don't forget they set the record in the finals by beating the jazz 96-54.

And just look at that spurs team.

Avery johnson whho was a career cba player
antonio daniels who was a bust considering he was a number 2 pick
sean elliot who came back from a bad kidney
duncan
David robinson who was older.

And their sixth man was mario elie who also was a career journeymen cba player.

I agree with you about 99. However, if they would have decided to come back for one more rodeo in 1999-2000, I believe that age and Rodman's behavior would have finally caught up to them, and they would have either lost to Indiana in the Conference Finals or to Portland in the NBA Finals. 2000 definitely would have been the last dance if 1998 turned out not to be.

I said that they would have played Portland because the Lakers wouldn't have made it to the Finals if they didn't have Phil Jackson. Without him, or a competent coach, Shaq would have wanted out. I remember him saying that at the time.

[nightprowler10]

So Krause was still GM when you guys foolishly traded us 21 year old Elton Brand for HS star/rookie Tyson Chandler? Why the hell would you trade a co ROY for a rookie out of HS on draft day night? In hindsight.. I would of preferred Chandler knowing what Elton did.. BUT he did give us 7 very good and productive years including an amazing playoff run.
People forget that Brand didn't want to play for Chicago for the same reasons no other star did. FO made Jordan retire. Brand's agent forced Krause's hand from what I remember reading.

[ShaqAttack3234]

They would have had a great shot in '99 with Phil, MJ, Scottie and Rodman.

Jordan was still arguably the best player in the game when he retired. Scottie was declining, but despite the problems with the '99 Rockets, he still averaged 15/7/6/2 and played great the following year on the 2000 Blazers. Plus, there's no way that Scottie would have been pushed to play 40+ mpg with the Bulls in '99 like he was with Houston and he would have been in a familiar system that was perfect for his skill set, while Houston wasn't a good fit for him. Rodman's season with the Lakers ended prematurely, but he was still the league's best rebounder and he made an impact when he was out there, and I'd bet that Phil would've been able to keep him under control enough to win like he had the previous 3 seasons. Plus, Kukoc would have been in the role that suited him best, which was 6th man instead of playing almost 38 mpg and averaging 19/7/5 on the '99 Bulls.

I think that the lockout also could have helped an older team like that in the playoffs. I'm not sure what they could've done in 2000, but if Phil is still on the Bulls and so is Scottie then that takes a lot away from both the Lakers and Blazers.

[Clippersfan86]

They would have had a great shot in '99 with Phil, MJ, Scottie and Rodman.

Jordan was still arguably the best player in the game when he retired. Scottie was declining, but despite the problems with the '99 Rockets, he still averaged 15/7/6/2 and played great the following year on the 2000 Blazers. Plus, there's no way that Scottie would have been pushed to play 40+ mpg with the Bulls in '99 like he was with Houston and he would have been in a familiar system that was perfect for his skill set, while Houston wasn't a good fit for him. Rodman's season with the Lakers ended prematurely, but he was still the league's best rebounder and he made an impact when he was out there, and I'd bet that Phil would've been able to keep him under control enough to win like he had the previous 3 seasons. Plus, Kukoc would have been in the role that suited him best, which was 6th man instead of playing almost 38 mpg and averaging 19/7/5 on the '99 Bulls.

I think that the lockout also could have helped an older team like that in the playoffs. I'm not sure what they could've done in 2000, but if Phil is still on the Bulls and so is Scottie then that takes a lot away from both the Lakers and Blazers.

Good points. Especially at the end of your post because obviously if the Bulls stayed together the Lakers and Blazers wouldn't of been nearly as good (due to Phil and Pippen both being with Chicago).

[rodman91]

Bulls could win 2 more.Jordan,Pippen,Rodman,Kukoc and Phil Jackson > rest of league.But i can't be angry to Krause cos he was major factor for building that team.

[VishaltotheG]

I love this thread, since I hate Jerry Krause.

Imagine if the Bulls stayed together for as long as they were able to win rings. This could have gone up until as far as 2003 (MJ was still ballin and the rest of the team had chemistry), and since the Lakers wouldn't have Phil Jackson coaching them, they may not have 3-peated those years, Shaq probably would demand a trade, and Kobe would never be considered a top 10 player of all time. :lol

[guy]

Good points. Especially at the end of your post because obviously if the Bulls stayed together the Lakers and Blazers wouldn't of been nearly as good (due to Phil and Pippen both being with Chicago).

This is something alot of people fail to mention when they think the Lakers would've still beaten the Bulls (not to say they couldn't have going up against an old Bulls team with Shaq in his prime).

Also, who knows? Maybe after 2000, if Jordan decides to keep on playing, maybe he stays for cheap, and the Bulls entice Duncan to come over and they build around him for the next decade.

[PP34Deuce]

While I am a big Celtic fan, I was born n raised in Chicago and one thing about CHicago is we do not kiss ass to players or egos. Chicago sports owners all operate similar.

I saw those 97-98 finals, and the Bulls showed "changing of the guard." That Jazz team has to be one of the best to never win a Ring.

[Orlando Magic]

Ok so I just watched a few Jordan interviews and I knew these two were feuding but Jordan said he told Pippen, Rodman and the core to stay together and go for 7 or 8 rings... but Jerry wanted to break up the dynasty due to personal issues with Jordan. I know Jerry also tried to boycott Jordan's HOF induction.

I want to hear from you Bulls fans who have actually been fans in the Jordan era and maybe shed some light on this. Why would you break up a dynasty that was still at the top? I truly believe the Bulls could have 7-8 rings and so does Jordan.


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[Clippersfan86]

This is something alot of people fail to mention when they think the Lakers would've still beaten the Bulls (not to say they couldn't have going up against an old Bulls team with Shaq in his prime).

Also, who knows? Maybe after 2000, if Jordan decides to keep on playing, maybe he stays for cheap, and the Bulls entice Duncan to come over and they build around him for the next decade.

Very true. It's amazing how much things can change with every single decision. Kinda how Miami's big 3.. spurred other players like Melo on to basically force a trade to a team with another star etc.

[Blzrfn]

They would have had a great shot in '99 with Phil, MJ, Scottie and Rodman.

Jordan was still arguably the best player in the game when he retired. Scottie was declining, but despite the problems with the '99 Rockets, he still averaged 15/7/6/2 and played great the following year on the 2000 Blazers. Plus, there's no way that Scottie would have been pushed to play 40+ mpg with the Bulls in '99 like he was with Houston and he would have been in a familiar system that was perfect for his skill set, while Houston wasn't a good fit for him. Rodman's season with the Lakers ended prematurely, but he was still the league's best rebounder and he made an impact when he was out there, and I'd bet that Phil would've been able to keep him under control enough to win like he had the previous 3 seasons. Plus, Kukoc would have been in the role that suited him best, which was 6th man instead of playing almost 38 mpg and averaging 19/7/5 on the '99 Bulls.

I think that the lockout also could have helped an older team like that in the playoffs. I'm not sure what they could've done in 2000, but if Phil is still on the Bulls and so is Scottie then that takes a lot away from both the Lakers and Blazers.

I think that scenario would have been far more damaging to the Lakers than the Blazers. The Blazers made the conference finals in 1999 without Pippen.

[aceman]

Im also positive they would've beaten the spurs in 99. People act like the bulls were weak in 98. But forget that they were tied with utah for best record in the league with 62 wins and that's with pippen missing half the season and jordan playing with torn ligaments in his shooting finger. A healthy pippen would've gotton them aroun 67 wins. And don't forget they set the record in the finals by beating the jazz 96-54.

And just look at that spurs team.

Avery johnson whho was a career cba player
antonio daniels who was a bust considering he was a number 2 pick
sean elliot who came back from a bad kidney
duncan
David robinson who was older.

And their sixth man was mario elie who also was a career journeymen cba player.

having mario elie come off the bench is strength not a weakness.

when did avery johnson play in the cba??

[Glide2keva]

It basically boils down to that Krause didn't feel like he got enough credit for putting together the team. Famous quote from him is that "management wins championships" or something along those lines. He resented Jordan and Jackson (even more than anyone else).

He said players don't win championships, organizations do.

He wanted to start the rebuilding process around Toni Kukoc (which is the reason he was drafted in the first place). Krause was an alright dude, but he had a big ego and since he was the one that drafted and traded for or signed everyone around Jordan, he figured it would be easy to just do it again around Kukoc. He was sadly mistaken and wound up out of a job (retiring) a few years later, after drafting Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler. Not to mention Jay Williams, Jamal Crawford, Jay Williams, hiring Bill Cartwright and Tim Floyd to coach the team at different times. He also struck out on Tim Duncan (free agent), Grant Hill (free agent), and Tracy McGrady (free agent).

No one wanted to play for him and it took years to undo the damage to the Bulls franchise and reputation he did.

He was a great GM in the 80's and 90's. but his time had passed.

[97 bulls]

having mario elie come off the bench is strength not a weakness.

when did avery johnson play in the cba??
Im sorry aba. And elie was solid. But I wouldn't be concerned about them. Both were solid but were career journeymen

[game385]

According to Reisnsdorf he "didn't want to become the Celtics of the next decade" (given that the Celtics sucked for a while after the Bird years).

He thought they'd be able to rebuild quicker by demolishing the dynasty on his own terms as oppose to letting them get old on the court. Needless to say, he was sadly mistaken and thusly likely cost Chicago 2 more titles and ended up becoming the "new Celtics" anyway..

Personally, I believe the Bulls could have easily won the title in that 50 game lockout year in 99 (considering that an 8th seeded Knick team made it to the finals).

& in 2000 they would have come into the season well rested and ready for one more run. With Phil Jackson still in Chicago and not yet in L.A., the Bulls would have likely won their 8th title that year.

[guy]

According to Reisnsdorf he "didn't want to become the Celtics of the next decade" (given that the Celtics sucked for a while after the Bird years).

He thought they'd be able to rebuild quicker by demolishing the dynasty on his own terms as oppose to letting them get old on the court. Needless to say, he was sadly mistaken and thusly likely cost Chicago 2 more titles and ended up becoming the "new Celtics" anyway..

Personally, I believe the Bulls could have easily won the title in that 50 game lockout year in 99 (considering that an 8th seeded Knick team made it to the finals).

& in 2000 they would have come into the season well rested and ready for one more run. With Phil Jackson still in Chicago and not yet in L.A., the Bulls would have likely won their 8th title that year.

Doesn't make sense. The reason the Celtics sucked after the Bird years was cause both Len Bias and Reggie Lewis had freak tragedies. If those two were around for the 90s, the Celtics would've been a contender. You don't break up a dynasty. You don't give up potential championships. Thats absolutely stupid.

[BarberSchool]

Jerry Krause and Jerry Rheinsdorf are both awful people. Jordan not only had to fight the toughest era (physically & mentally) in NBA history for his 6 rings, but he had to constantly fight his management. Rheinsdorf never ever wanted to even go a penny over the salary cap, even when other teams were goinbg far over theirs and paying handsome luxury tax sums. And Krause was just completely vengeful and hateful to his own players, actively wishing for their failure to please his own sense of insidious revenge.

Krause is really a much sicker man than Jordan ever could hope to be. And to think Harry Teinowitz would always jockey for both these men [Krause and Rheinsdorf] (whom never played basketball at any competetive level tmk) to be inducted into the basketball hall of fame for their deeds ???.....alter meshugenah gonif.

[BarberSchool]

According to Reisnsdorf he "didn't want to become the Celtics of the next decade" (given that the Celtics sucked for a while after the Bird years).

He thought they'd be able to rebuild quicker by demolishing the dynasty on his own terms as oppose to letting them get old on the court. Needless to say, he was sadly mistaken and thusly likely cost Chicago 2 more titles and ended up becoming the "new Celtics" anyway..

Personally, I believe the Bulls could have easily won the title in that 50 game lockout year in 99 (considering that an 8th seeded Knick team made it to the finals).

& in 2000 they would have come into the season well rested and ready for one more run. With Phil Jackson still in Chicago and not yet in L.A., the Bulls would have likely won their 8th title that year.In reality, if Michael never took 2 years off, and Rheinsdorf and Krause could've :

1. Not actively tried to dismantle a dynasty approaching it's decline.
2. went slightly over the salary cap
3. stopped drafting horrendously bad fat power forwards every year

.....the Bulls could have very likely won 10 rings consecutively from 1991 to 2000.

[97 bulls]

Doesn't make sense. The reason the Celtics sucked after the Bird years was cause both Len Bias and Reggie Lewis had freak tragedies. If those two were around for the 90s, the Celtics would've been a contender. You don't break up a dynasty. You don't give up potential championships. Thats absolutely stupid.
That reasoning was an excuse. The bulls were primed to win at least 1 maybe 2 championships even after 98. Age be damned, those bulls were friggn great. And that's all that matters. Everybody ages at different times. And while I know mid 30s is normally when players decline, that just wasn't the case for those bulls

[1987_Lakers]

Krause destroyed the Bulls at a perfect time. I don't see them winning another title if they stayed together. I give them a 30% chance of winning it in '99 & a 0% chance of winning it in 2000.

[97 bulls]

Krause destroyed the Bulls at a perfect time. I don't see them winning another title if they stayed together. I give them a 30% chance of winning it in '99 & a 0% chance of winning it in 2000.
Why no substance to your view?

[BarberSchool]

Krause destroyed the Bulls at a perfect time. I don't see them winning another title if they stayed together. I give them a 30% chance of winning it in '99 & a 0% chance of winning it in 2000.To quote you:
http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/fc/fcc9ac4ea5bbac53a9404ee70a98b0590a39c0e1_full.jpgh ttp://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/fc/fcc9ac4ea5bbac53a9404ee70a98b0590a39c0e1_full.jpgh ttp://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/fc/fcc9ac4ea5bbac53a9404ee70a98b0590a39c0e1_full.jpg

[10x91= 5 Rings]

Krause destroyed the Bulls at a perfect time. I don't see them winning another title if they stayed together. I give them a 30% chance of winning it in '99 & a 0% chance of winning it in 2000.

Why am I not suprised coming from a Laker?

Seriously,who was going to stop MJ? Who was going to stop a well oiled machine like the Bulls?Age was the only opponent that dynasty had to face and they were still ripping the hearts out of the opponents.Tell me,who was going to beat them? Old ass Rodman was still Shaqs kryptonite and last but not least....Lakers didn`t win anything until Phil Jackson started to coach them. So thank Jerry Krause you got the "Zen Master" and didn`t have to earn that threepeat against the Bulls.