The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

[Eat Like A Bosh]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/810/967/109879711_display_image.jpg
Intro:
No team has been as successful as the Lakers in professional sports over the past 30 years, and no NBA player has had as much success as Kobe has over the past decade.

Yet, it is funny how polarized many fans are when discussing Kobe Bryant. The amount of effort that some people use to try to bring down his legacy is simply incredible and laughable at the same time. Perhaps if this effort was used towards producing positive economic profit, this country would have already been out of the recession.

And the funny thing is that one doesn’t see this with other past NBA legends, such as Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They all had more than their share of imperfections and flaws, but no one questions their greatness.

Most of the myths and lies associated with the Lakers and Kobe are built around cherry-picked stats and by using double standards.

A friend once told me “If you tell a lie that's big enough, and you tell it often enough, people will believe you are telling the truth.” By retelling these lies over and over, many smart folks I know are even starting to believe them.

This a is meant to address the top myths about Kobe and the Lakers. I don’t expect to change the minds of Kobe/Lakers haters, like you, my friend, but hopefully this should make a difference among the rational folks, helping to stop the spread of these lies.

All right, shall we begin?

1. Kobe Is Not an Efficient Shooter
The argument that Kobe is not an efficient shooter is often brought up to show that he is overrated. In addition, many of the same people that use this argument state that efficiency is one of the main reasons that puts Michael Jordan into a class much higher than Kobe Bryant.

Even Phil Jackson made this distinction recently. And yet everyone who claims this is wrong.

Looking at the pure field goal statistics seems to lend credence to this argument. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a .455 career field goal percentage compared to .497 for Jordan. Part of the reason that Kobe’s shooting percentage is lower is due to the higher quantity and percentage of shots that are taken from beyond the three-point line. However, three-pointers contribute 50 percent more points than regular shots.When free throws and three-pointers are taken into account to form the true shooting percentage, Michael Jordan has a .569 percentage compared to Kobe Bryant’s .556. In other words, the numbers are very similar.

One has to also remember that most of the years that Jordan shot higher field goal percentages came during the 1980s when team defenses (despite the hand-checking) were much less tenacious than the 1990s or 2000s. Hence, teams in general shot much higher percentages and there were many guards who shot greater than 50 percent (compared to just a few today). Heck, there were whole teams that averaged over 50 percent on their field goal attempts.

There are a couple reasons why team defenses are more effective today. First, after the Detroit Pistons made use of the “Jordan Rules,” other teams took note that tough team defenses can slow down the best players in the game and lead to wins. Second, zone defenses encourage outside shooting more than dribble penetration, leading to a lower conversion rate.
If Jordan had played in today’s league, he would be forced to take and make more outside shots, which is something he wasn’t very effective at early in his career. While he would likely have improved his outside shot earlier in his career, his overall field goal percentage probably would have suffered.

Despite the difference in eras and true shooting percentage to compare Jordan and Bryant, let’s consider one final telling stat that indicates how efficiently the two players were able to score.

When one looks at points per field goal attempt, one will see nearly identical statistics for both players: Jordan scored 1.316 points per shot attempt while Bryant has scored 1.304.

So after this analysis, does it still seem that Jordan is in a class way above Bryant when it comes to efficiency?
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8871/kobeshooting.jpg

2. The Lakers Are Better Off When Kobe Shoots Less
This season, quite a few have commented about how the Lakers seem to do better when Kobe Bryant shoots less in games. They have noted that many of the games LA has lost this year featured lots of shot attempts by Bryant.

However, there is a reason why this correlation could be made. Since Kobe already has a lot of mileage, coach Phil Jackson has tried to limit his playing time this season. In fact, Kobe’s playing time is down about five minutes per game compared to last season.

Jackson’s goal for every Lakers game this season is to have his team dominate through the first three quarters and rest Kobe Bryant in the fourth quarter. With all of the games that Kobe has sat out much of the fourth quarter this season, his average playing time in wins is lower than his playing time in losses.

When games are close in the fourth quarter, Jackson usually relies heavily on Kobe. Often times, Kobe is asked to take over the scoring load late in games because Pau Gasol and the other players were unable to have good scoring games themselves.

Sometimes Kobe is able to help get the wins for the Lakers and sometimes he is unable to do so. But the fact that in losses he is playing more minutes and taking more shots is the reason why his shot attempts are higher in losses.

Hence, claiming that the Lakers are “better off” when Kobe shoots less is simply a na

[Calabis]

[QUOTE=Eat Like A Bosh]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/810/967/109879711_display_image.jpg
Intro:
No team has been as successful as the Lakers in professional sports over the past 30 years, and no NBA player has had as much success as Kobe has over the past decade.

Yet, it is funny how polarized many fans are when discussing Kobe Bryant. The amount of effort that some people use to try to bring down his legacy is simply incredible and laughable at the same time. Perhaps if this effort was used towards producing positive economic profit, this country would have already been out of the recession.

And the funny thing is that one doesn’t see this with other past NBA legends, such as Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They all had more than their share of imperfections and flaws, but no one questions their greatness.

Most of the myths and lies associated with the Lakers and Kobe are built around cherry-picked stats and by using double standards.

A friend once told me “If you tell a lie that's big enough, and you tell it often enough, people will believe you are telling the truth.” By retelling these lies over and over, many smart folks I know are even starting to believe them.

This a is meant to address the top myths about Kobe and the Lakers. I don’t expect to change the minds of Kobe/Lakers haters, like you, my friend, but hopefully this should make a difference among the rational folks, helping to stop the spread of these lies.

All right, shall we begin?

1. Kobe Is Not an Efficient Shooter
The argument that Kobe is not an efficient shooter is often brought up to show that he is overrated. In addition, many of the same people that use this argument state that efficiency is one of the main reasons that puts Michael Jordan into a class much higher than Kobe Bryant.

Even Phil Jackson made this distinction recently. And yet everyone who claims this is wrong.

Looking at the pure field goal statistics seems to lend credence to this argument. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a .455 career field goal percentage compared to .497 for Jordan. Part of the reason that Kobe’s shooting percentage is lower is due to the higher quantity and percentage of shots that are taken from beyond the three-point line. However, three-pointers contribute 50 percent more points than regular shots.When free throws and three-pointers are taken into account to form the true shooting percentage, Michael Jordan has a .569 percentage compared to Kobe Bryant’s .556. In other words, the numbers are very similar.

One has to also remember that most of the years that Jordan shot higher field goal percentages came during the 1980s when team defenses (despite the hand-checking) were much less tenacious than the 1990s or 2000s. Hence, teams in general shot much higher percentages and there were many guards who shot greater than 50 percent (compared to just a few today). Heck, there were whole teams that averaged over 50 percent on their field goal attempts.

There are a couple reasons why team defenses are more effective today. First, after the Detroit Pistons made use of the “Jordan Rules,” other teams took note that tough team defenses can slow down the best players in the game and lead to wins. Second, zone defenses encourage outside shooting more than dribble penetration, leading to a lower conversion rate.
If Jordan had played in today’s league, he would be forced to take and make more outside shots, which is something he wasn’t very effective at early in his career. While he would likely have improved his outside shot earlier in his career, his overall field goal percentage probably would have suffered.

Despite the difference in eras and true shooting percentage to compare Jordan and Bryant, let’s consider one final telling stat that indicates how efficiently the two players were able to score.
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8871/kobeshooting.jpg

2. The Lakers Are Better Off When Kobe Shoots Less
This season, quite a few have commented about how the Lakers seem to do better when Kobe Bryant shoots less in games. They have noted that many of the games LA has lost this year featured lots of shot attempts by Bryant.

However, there is a reason why this correlation could be made. Since Kobe already has a lot of mileage, coach Phil Jackson has tried to limit his playing time this season. In fact, Kobe’s playing time is down about five minutes per game compared to last season.

Jackson’s goal for every Lakers game this season is to have his team dominate through the first three quarters and rest Kobe Bryant in the fourth quarter. With all of the games that Kobe has sat out much of the fourth quarter this season, his average playing time in wins is lower than his playing time in losses.

When games are close in the fourth quarter, Jackson usually relies heavily on Kobe. Often times, Kobe is asked to take over the scoring load late in games because Pau Gasol and the other players were unable to have good scoring games themselves.

Sometimes Kobe is able to help get the wins for the Lakers and sometimes he is unable to do so. But the fact that in losses he is playing more minutes and taking more shots is the reason why his shot attempts are higher in losses.

Hence, claiming that the Lakers are “better off” when Kobe shoots less is simply a na

[Eat Like A Bosh]

3. Kobe Played the Role of “Robin” in the First Three-Peat
A classic line used against Kobe Bryant is saying that he played second fiddle to Shaquille O’Neal during the Lakers’ three-peat from 2000-2002.

While this is certainly true for the 2000 championship season, it is not entirely accurate for the next two title years.

Even in 2000 playing the sidekick role, Kobe Bryant played a key a role in Game 4 of the Finals against the Indiana Pacers. After Shaq fouled out, Kobe Bryant led the Lakers with four clutch baskets to win the game in overtime—the team’s only win in Indiana.

Throughout the Kobe-Shaq era, it was common for the Lakers to run the offense through Shaq early in games. Then when the second half was played out and Shaq became a liability with his poor free throw shooting (remember Hack-a-Shaq?), Kobe was the go-to player as opposing team defenses clamped down.

How can Shaq be the clear-cut leader of the team when his own coach would bench him in fourth quarters because his play would actually hurt his team?

But let’s look at some stats since they tell the story in more detail.

During the 2000-2001 season, look at the averages:

Shaq: 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57% FG, 51% FT

Kobe: 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46% FG, 85% FT

Both players made the All-Defensive and All-NBA teams.

Here are the averages for the 2001 playoffs:

Shaq: 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56% FG, 53% FT

Kobe: 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 47% FG, 82% FT

Just like in the regular season, both players’ numbers are very similar. Shaq had a dominating Finals series against the thin frontline of the Philadelphia 76ers and rightly earned the Finals MVP award.

But the toughest team LA faced en route to the Finals was the San Antonio Spurs—the team with the best record in the NBA. Most media analysts called this the “Real 2001 NBA Finals,” as whichever team survived would most certainly win the Larry O’Brien Trophy.

Let’s look at that series averages for the two players:

Shaq: 27 ppg, 13 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, 54% FG, 52% FT

Kobe: 33.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg, 1.5 spg, 51% FG, 77% FT

More importantly, Kobe poured in 45 points in the most important game of the series: Game 1 played in San Antonio. Of what the media dubbed the “Real Finals,” that season, Kobe was the obvious MVP.

When discussing the 2000-2001 season, it becomes obvious that Shaq might have been option 1A and Kobe was option 1B, but it would be a stretch to say Kobe was a clear second option in a sidekick role.

Looking at the stats from the 2001-2002 season shows a similar trend:

Regular Season:

Shaq: 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 58% FG, 56% FT

Kobe: 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 47% FG, 83% FT

Playoffs:

Shaq: 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 53% FG, 65% FT

Kobe: 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43% FG, 38% 3FG, 76% FT

Overall, Shaq edged Kobe in points and interior play and Kobe held the advantages in playmaking, outside shooting and clutch play. Also, during that season one should note that while both players made the All-NBA team, Kobe also made the All-Defensive team while Shaq did not.

Clearly, the coaches in the league thought Kobe was better at slowing down opponents than Shaq was. Being that defense is half of the game, this is a significant distinction.

The following season shows a new trend:

Shaq: 27.5 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 57% FG, 62% FT

Kobe: 30.0 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.2 spg, 45% FG, 38% 3FG, 84% FT

Kobe’s numbers seem kind of Jordan-like, don’t they? It’s amazing he didn’t win the MVP that year, but it was clear that Kobe was starting to surpass Shaq. Had it not been for a few Robert Horry missed three-pointers in the playoffs, LA probably would have won a fourth championship in a row that season.

Now let’s compare a true Batman-and-Robin scenario in analyzing Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. In the six championship seasons, Jordan averaged 30.5 ppg while Pippen averaged 19.4 ppg, a difference of 11.1 ppg. In the playoffs of those six seasons, Jordan averaged 32.6 ppg while Pippen only averaged 19.0 ppg, a whopping difference of 13.6 ppg.

See the difference between a player who plays “second fiddle” compared to a clear-cut leader?

Clearly, the Batman-Robin analogy does not hold up when looking at Kobe’s role with the Lakers starting with the 2000-2001 season.
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2892/2786531displayimage.jpg


4. Kobe was the reason Shaq left the Lakers
Kobe critics have pointed out consistently through the years that he was the reason that Shaq left the Los Angeles Lakers. They claim that Kobe forced Shaq out, telling owner Jerry Buss that he would have to choose which one of the two superstars he wanted to keep.

Over the years, much has come to light on this issue. In short, Buss made a sound business decision. Sure, Shaq would go on to help the Miami Heat win its first franchise championship in 2006, but where would the Lakers be today if they were centered around Shaq instead of Kobe?

After Shaq left the Lakers, he only averaged more than 20 ppg in a season once, while getting paid in the range of $20-$27 million in every season up until this year. Meanwhile, Kobe has averaged over 20 ppg in every season since Shaq left, won an MVP award and two Finals MVP awards, while making nearly half the salary that Shaq made in his first year in Miami.

From a business standpoint in saving the team money and getting the most productive player, it’s obvious that Buss made the right decision.

To further damage Shaq’s case, reports over the years have stated that he was a cancer in the Lakers locker room. This has been evident as Shaq has been an issue with every team he has played with since he left LA.

When O’Neal admitted to coming into the preseason camp each year out of shape and healing injuries “on company time” since he was injured while “on the job,” his true character became crystal clear. When it comes to motivation, leadership, hard work and determination, there is simply no comparison between Shaq and Kobe.

Although he has kept quiet about these issues through the years, Dr. Buss obviously factored in all of these intangibles to aid his decision-making. In short, anyone who blames Kobe for Shaq’s departure is not telling the whole story.

To be continued...

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Bleacher Report??
Yes LA Times Bleacher Report.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

5. Kobe Is Not a Great Defender
One of my favorite arguments used against Kobe Bryant is the claim that he is not a great defender. People will often compare his averages in steals and blocks to those of Michael Jordan and other players to downplay his impact on the defensive end of the court.

First, steals and blocks can be very important in helping a team win, but they are gambling moves. If a player goes for a steal and misses, often the opponent is wide open for a high-percentage shot. Similarly, if a player jumps up to block a shot, there is a significant chance that he will foul the other player.

Steals and blocks are good indicators of help defense, but not the best measurements for one-on-one defense. This is why players like Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier and Dennis Rodman were all considered elite defenders, despite having low averages in steals and blocks.

Kobe Bryant has learned to do more with sound defensive principles, using impeccable footwork in slowing down opponents. As games get closer to the end, Kobe’s effort on defense goes up to the highest notch. There’s not one player I’d rather put over Kobe on a perimeter scorer at the end of the game to stop a game-tying or winning shot.

Apparently, the NBA coaches and GMs have taken notice. Each year the GMs have rated Kobe as one of the top perimeter defenders in their annual NBA survey. Coaches vote for the All-Defensive teams, and one would think they know who can guard their own players the best in the NBA.

Until the Lakers got Ron Artest last season, Kobe Bryant was asked to carry the scoring load and guard the best perimeter defender each game. Not even Michael Jordan was asked to do so much, as Scottie Pippen was usually assigned to guard the top perimeter players to help conserve Jordan’s energy.

Regarding the All-Defensive awards, Kobe Bryant has made the First Team eight times and the Second Team twice over his career. Only Gary Payton and Michael Jordan have more First Team selections (nine each), but Kobe has more overall selections than both of them.

Only Tim Duncan (13) and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (11) have more overall selections than Kobe Bryant.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4347/50964425displayimage.jpg

6.Kobe is the biggest ballhog
Many Kobe Bryant haters like to point out that he is the biggest ball hog the NBA has seen. Not only is this an untrue statement, but it is also a na

[Hulk Hogan]

You mean 10 fabricated reasons why I hate Kobe... :oldlol:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

[B][SIZE="3"]7. Kobe Doesn

[Eat Like A Bosh]

9.Pau Gasol Is the Best Player on the Lakers
This is perhaps the most comedic myth that’s thrown around in conversations about the Lakers. I already discussed why Kobe rightfully earned his two Finals MVP awards and why the team is not necessarily worse off when the offense goes through Kobe instead of Pau Gasol.

Regarding Gasol, he has the potential to be so much better than he is. He is the most skilled big man in the NBA with superior passing skills, countless moves in the low post, a consistent mid-range jump shot and a high basketball IQ.

In addition, Gasol has improved significantly on defense, rebounding and toughness over the last few years (which, by the way, he has accredited to Kobe’s influence).

If Gasol played with the same determination and work ethic that Bryant brings in every game, he could be the league’s MVP. However, he often gets worn out by physical play in the post, being outworked by numerous smaller opponents this season alone. And despite his improved aggression, he still gets labeled as being a “soft” player by many NBA analysts.

While Kobe for the past three years has made the All-NBA and All-Defensive first teams, Pau has only made the All-NBA Third Team and has failed to earn a spot on the All-Defensive Team. When the Lakers are in a close game at the end of regulation, more often than not the offense goes through Kobe Bryant.

Phil Jackson is one of the best coaches of all time, if not the best. The fact that he trusts Kobe more than Gasol to make the right plays in the clutch says a lot about the difference between the two players.

Once again, it appears that the claim that Gasol is the best player on the Lakers is just another attempt by some to diminish Kobe’s legacy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Pau_Gasol_b oxout.jpg/220px-Pau_Gasol_boxout.jpg
10. Derek Fisher is the worst starting Point Guard
There is no doubt that Derek Fisher’s stats this season are not the most impressive. He is averaging just 6.6 ppg and 2.7 apg while shooting 39 percent from the field (although he is making about 40 percent of his three-pointers).

Many NBA pundits look at these stats and efficiency rating systems like PER to “prove” that Fisher is the worst starting point guard in the league.

There are a few rebuttals to this claim, however.

First, Fisher’s stats are indicative of the team’s offensive schemes. In trying to conserve him for the playoffs, Jackson has rested Fisher more this season. Thus, he has less time out on the court to pile up stats. Furthermore, the triangle offense dictates ball movement, so no player (point guard included) is likely to rack up tons of assists.

Second, stats and the PER system do not tell the whole story of how valuable a player is. If stats and player efficiency systems determined who played in the NBA, Derek Fisher and Bruce Bowen never would have made it very far, let alone win multiple championships.

There are many areas of the game that do not show up in the box scores. For instance, Fisher is one of the best players at setting up the triangle offense. When the Lakers tend to over-rely on Kobe Bryant on offense, he is the one player not afraid to pass the ball to someone else.

In addition, Fisher does little things like take charges and fighting through screens that are quite effective on the defensive end.

And everyone by now knows about how Fisher is one of the most clutch players in NBA history, from the “0.4 shot” against the Spurs in 2004 to clutch baskets in the 2009 and 2010 Finals. When the playoffs roll around, there are few players that will display better leadership and perform better in clutch situations than Derek Fisher.

[Calabis]

You mean 10 fabricated reasons why I hate Kobe... :oldlol:

No its actually praising him, surprised u don't have it saved and printed on u'r wall by now

[Eat Like A Bosh]

You mean 10 fabricated reasons why I hate Kobe... :oldlol:
Have you even finish reading this Hulk?:lol

[whoartthou]

guys.. give hulk a break. Do we even know if he has basic reading skills?

Jeeze!

[Christofire]

The "when kobe shoots less" argument has always been the stupidest thing i've ever heard. When Bryant shoots less that means his teammates are playing a good game so he doesnt have to shoot alot of shots. That is true for almost any team. When your supporting cast is giving quality support then naturally you will take less shots. It's a pointless argument.



Jordan j*zzchuggers just love to ignore the fact that Bryant has shot over 2000 more 3s in his career than Michael Jordan. They also love to ignore that half of his career was played in the 80s to 93...where the league average for ppg was about 107 over that stretch with 90% of the teams atleast scoring 100 pts.


Jordan had absurd FG%s of 53% in the 80s back when he couldn't shoot rocks into the ocean, but yet we're supposed to believe he faced superior defenses and defensive players?...Especially when you take into account the FG%s of players and teams. Jordan stats are inflated due to significantly inferior defense and ridiculous pace of play.


Kobe>Jordan

[Hulk Hogan]

No its actually praising him, surprised u don't have it saved and printed on u'r wall by now

You mad... agitated with my trolling skills? :lol

[Assassin]

You actually wrote all of this or did you copy and paste this from another website?

[Bandito]

You mad... agitated with my trolling skills? :lol
Yeah right...

[97 bulls]

The "when kobe shoots less" argument has always been the stupidest thing i've ever heard. When Bryant shoots less that means his teammates are playing a good game so he doesnt have to shoot alot of shots. That is true for almost any team. When your supporting cast is giving quality support then naturally you will take less shots. It's a pointless argument.



Jordan j*zzchuggers just love to ignore the fact that Bryant has shot over 2000 more 3s in his career than Michael Jordan. They also love to ignore that half of his career was played in the 80s to 93...where the league average for ppg was about 107 over that stretch with 90% of the teams atleast scoring 100 pts.


Jordan had absurd FG%s of 53% in the 80s back when he couldn't shoot rocks into the ocean, but yet we're supposed to believe he faced superior defenses and defensive players?...Especially when you take into account the FG%s of players and teams. Jordan stats are inflated due to significantly inferior defense and ridiculous pace of play.


Kobe>Jordan
But jordan didn't play his whole career in the 80s. I still say the mid 90s was the hardest time for scoring. Not so much cuz the defense was better, but cuz the game was so bogged down. And even in during that time jordan faired great. Its the main reason I feel jordan was at his best during this time. Maybe not statistically, but as a basketball player.

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=Eat Like A Bosh]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/810/967/109879711_display_image.jpg
Intro:
No team has been as successful as the Lakers in professional sports over the past 30 years, and no NBA player has had as much success as Kobe has over the past decade.

Yet, it is funny how polarized many fans are when discussing Kobe Bryant. The amount of effort that some people use to try to bring down his legacy is simply incredible and laughable at the same time. Perhaps if this effort was used towards producing positive economic profit, this country would have already been out of the recession.

And the funny thing is that one doesn’t see this with other past NBA legends, such as Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They all had more than their share of imperfections and flaws, but no one questions their greatness.

Most of the myths and lies associated with the Lakers and Kobe are built around cherry-picked stats and by using double standards.

A friend once told me “If you tell a lie that's big enough, and you tell it often enough, people will believe you are telling the truth.” By retelling these lies over and over, many smart folks I know are even starting to believe them.

This a is meant to address the top myths about Kobe and the Lakers. I don’t expect to change the minds of Kobe/Lakers haters, like you, my friend, but hopefully this should make a difference among the rational folks, helping to stop the spread of these lies.

All right, shall we begin?

1. Kobe Is Not an Efficient Shooter
The argument that Kobe is not an efficient shooter is often brought up to show that he is overrated. In addition, many of the same people that use this argument state that efficiency is one of the main reasons that puts Michael Jordan into a class much higher than Kobe Bryant.

Even Phil Jackson made this distinction recently. And yet everyone who claims this is wrong.

Looking at the pure field goal statistics seems to lend credence to this argument. For instance, Kobe Bryant has a .455 career field goal percentage compared to .497 for Jordan. Part of the reason that Kobe’s shooting percentage is lower is due to the higher quantity and percentage of shots that are taken from beyond the three-point line. However, three-pointers contribute 50 percent more points than regular shots.When free throws and three-pointers are taken into account to form the true shooting percentage, Michael Jordan has a .569 percentage compared to Kobe Bryant’s .556. In other words, the numbers are very similar.

One has to also remember that most of the years that Jordan shot higher field goal percentages came during the 1980s when team defenses (despite the hand-checking) were much less tenacious than the 1990s or 2000s. Hence, teams in general shot much higher percentages and there were many guards who shot greater than 50 percent (compared to just a few today). Heck, there were whole teams that averaged over 50 percent on their field goal attempts.

There are a couple reasons why team defenses are more effective today. First, after the Detroit Pistons made use of the “Jordan Rules,” other teams took note that tough team defenses can slow down the best players in the game and lead to wins. Second, zone defenses encourage outside shooting more than dribble penetration, leading to a lower conversion rate.
If Jordan had played in today’s league, he would be forced to take and make more outside shots, which is something he wasn’t very effective at early in his career. While he would likely have improved his outside shot earlier in his career, his overall field goal percentage probably would have suffered.

Despite the difference in eras and true shooting percentage to compare Jordan and Bryant, let’s consider one final telling stat that indicates how efficiently the two players were able to score.

When one looks at points per field goal attempt, one will see nearly identical statistics for both players: Jordan scored 1.316 points per shot attempt while Bryant has scored 1.304.

So after this analysis, does it still seem that Jordan is in a class way above Bryant when it comes to efficiency?
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8871/kobeshooting.jpg

2. The Lakers Are Better Off When Kobe Shoots Less
This season, quite a few have commented about how the Lakers seem to do better when Kobe Bryant shoots less in games. They have noted that many of the games LA has lost this year featured lots of shot attempts by Bryant.

However, there is a reason why this correlation could be made. Since Kobe already has a lot of mileage, coach Phil Jackson has tried to limit his playing time this season. In fact, Kobe’s playing time is down about five minutes per game compared to last season.

Jackson’s goal for every Lakers game this season is to have his team dominate through the first three quarters and rest Kobe Bryant in the fourth quarter. With all of the games that Kobe has sat out much of the fourth quarter this season, his average playing time in wins is lower than his playing time in losses.

When games are close in the fourth quarter, Jackson usually relies heavily on Kobe. Often times, Kobe is asked to take over the scoring load late in games because Pau Gasol and the other players were unable to have good scoring games themselves.

Sometimes Kobe is able to help get the wins for the Lakers and sometimes he is unable to do so. But the fact that in losses he is playing more minutes and taking more shots is the reason why his shot attempts are higher in losses.

Hence, claiming that the Lakers are “better off” when Kobe shoots less is simply a na

[Clipperboy3]

wow really Kobe over Jordan I mean are people just stupid, or is this some april fools posts up a bit early!!! Here's a fact Kobe will never be Jordan. Never!

[Eat Like A Bosh]

wow really Kobe over Jordan I mean are people just stupid, or is this some april fools posts up a bit early!!! Here's a fact Kobe will never be Jordan. Never!
Wow people on ISH are so dumb sometimes...:facepalm
When did this article say that Kobe is better than Jordan?

[Calabis]

You mad... agitated with my trolling skills? :lol

No just thought you would have read it, b4 knocking it, it is giving Kobe his due credit

[Calabis]

Wow people on ISH are so dumb sometimes...:facepalm
When did this article say that Kobe is better than Jordan?

It doesn't, but he troll with the Rondo pic said it in the thread, get ready for a Jordan vs Kobe thread...sorry

[matts290]

It doesn't, but he troll with the Rondo pic said it in the thread, get ready for a Jordan vs Kobe thread...sorry

Don't see why it has too, the writer of the article even said that MJ is the GOAT. I thought it was a good read, pretty much echos all my sentiments on kobe-haters.

[Christofire]

But jordan didn't play his whole career in the 80s. I still say the mid 90s was the hardest time for scoring. Not so much cuz the defense was better, but cuz the game was so bogged down. And even in during that time jordan faired great. Its the main reason I feel jordan was at his best during this time. Maybe not statistically, but as a basketball player.

the 90s was not the most difficult era to score in....undersized wing players and no zone defense...isolation ran rampant in the 90s....Jordan was still great ofcourse....But he played half of his career in a score happy 80s to 93, and the other half in a competition deprived 94-98......

[Christofire]

But jordan didn't play his whole career in the 80s. I still say the mid 90s was the hardest time for scoring. Not so much cuz the defense was better, but cuz the game was so bogged down. And even in during that time jordan faired great. Its the main reason I feel jordan was at his best during this time. Maybe not statistically, but as a basketball player.

Jordan was definately a moe complete player, but the reason the games were bogged down was because of isolations less possessions because alot of team ran halfcourt iso that took off much of the shotclock. Defense was more physical but it wasn't better. Sound defense will always trump hacking. so what if more guys got wacked out of the air, so they go freethrows and without the aid of zone defense penetration was more frequent. There's a reason they brought zone defense to the league and that was to force team play and to hinder isolation.


Also wanna know why jordan won wihtout a dominant big man?...Because he didnt need one...How many of those great bigs of the 90s had a complimentary wing player for them to accomplish winning a title?....

[Calabis]

Don't see why it has too, the writer of the article even said that MJ is the GOAT. I thought it was a good read, pretty much echos all my sentiments on kobe-haters.

See Christofire....told you, not talking about the article, Kobetrolls bring MJ into a positive article for Kobe, what else is new

[the_wise_one]

Those aren't myths. Those are facts.
How can anybody who has basic education confuse the two?

[Christofire]

See Christofire....told you, not talking about the article, Kobetrolls bring MJ into a positive article for Kobe, what else is new

Jordan has a greater legacy no doubt and no denying that....Jordan dominated his era the way Kobe can't in this era....i will never dispute that, but with that said Kobe is a better player when comparing the 2. Even though jordan is greater....greatness is a combination of your skill and your accomplishment.


Jordan is more accomplished than Kobe despite kobe being more skilled which is why Jordan is the greatest

[Nevaeh]

Jordan has a greater legacy no doubt and no denying that....Jordan dominated his era the way Kobe can't in this era....i will never dispute that, but with that said Kobe is a better player when comparing the 2. Even though jordan is greater....greatness is a combination of your skill and your accomplishment.


Jordan is more accomplished than Kobe despite kobe being more skilled which is why Jordan is the greatest

Make up your mind Bill Clinton :rolleyes:

[Da_Realist]

Make up your mind Bill Clinton :rolleyes:

He gotta jump through hoops to say Kobe was better. He knows that sh*t don't even sound right so he comes out with all the qualifiers. :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan was definately a moe complete player, but the reason the games were bogged down was because of isolations less possessions because alot of team ran halfcourt iso that took off much of the shotclock. Defense was more physical but it wasn't better. Sound defense will always trump hacking. so what if more guys got wacked out of the air, so they go freethrows and without the aid of zone defense penetration was more frequent. There's a reason they brought zone defense to the league and that was to force team play and to hinder isolation.


Also wanna know why jordan won wihtout a dominant big man?...Because he didnt need one...How many of those great bigs of the 90s had a complimentary wing player for them to accomplish winning a title?....



shaq had penny and nick anderson,
smits had reggie and mark jackson,
brad daugherty had price and nance,
ewing had starks, rolando, mark jackson and xavier,
hakeem had no one..

Smits was just a decent big.. .. Rolando was older...

[Ne 1]

Ether for the haters! :cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

Make up your mind Bill Clinton :rolleyes:

Even he doesn't believe it.. :roll:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Those aren't myths. Those are facts.
How can anybody who has basic education confuse the two?
Well Apparently the wise one is not so wise after all. :lol :banana:
Or he's probably just another troll.

[NBASTATMAN]

Ether for the haters! :cheers:



If we go by PPS than Iverson was A more efficient SCORER than Kobe in 2005-6... That stat just shows that Mj didn't get to the line as much as people think he did...

Iverson 2005-6>>>>>kobe 2005-6 if we go by PPS... :lol

[Bogus_Sting]

No team has been as successful as the Lakers in professional sports over the past 30 years, and no NBA player has had as much success as Kobe has over the past decade.


You lost credibility before you finished the first sentence. Good effort, young fella. Keep it up, one day you might actually make some sense.

http://www.soccerfiesta.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ronaldo_real_madrid.jpg
http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/428px-Logo_Real_Madrid_svg-copy.jpg

[Ne 1]

If we go by PPS than Iverson was A more efficient SCORER than Kobe in 2005-6... That stat just shows that Mj didn't get to the line as much as people think he did...

Iverson 2005-6>>>>>kobe 2005-6 if we go by PPS... :lol

http://oi54.tinypic.com/2vsjo2d.jpg

http://files.sharenator.com/Kobe_U_Mad_Apparently_Superwoman_has_an_eyesight_p roblem-s230x180-135498-410.jpg

[97 bulls]

the 90s was not the most difficult era to score in....undersized wing players and no zone defense...isolation ran rampant in the 90s....Jordan was still great ofcourse....But he played half of his career in a score happy 80s to 93, and the other half in a competition deprived 94-98......
For the life of me. Ill never understand how you can continue to say the wing players were undersized. When time after time its been shown and youve been corrected inthat the wings were no bigger now that in the 90s.

As well as you usiing the lack of talent theory. Another point of view that's been proven false. And yet you continue to spout this nonsense.

Why even state something when you know the truth isn't gonna change your mind. You just wont reply and wait until another thread comes up and start all over again.

How can a understanding be accomplished?

[Bogus_Sting]

For the life of me. Ill never understand how you can continue to say the wing players were undersized. When time after time its been shown and youve been corrected inthat the wings were no bigger now that in the 90s.

As well as you usiing the lack of talent theory. Another point of view that's been proven false. And yet you continue to spout this nonsense.

Why even state something when you know the truth isn't gonna change your mind. You just wont reply and wait until another thread comes up and start all over again.

How can a understanding be accomplished?

Don't worry, If he won't understand. Just use his logic to show him.

(Undersized= quicker players) + Man to Man defense + No charge box= defensive advantage

[97 bulls]

Jordan was definately a moe complete player, but the reason the games were bogged down was because of isolations less possessions because alot of team ran halfcourt iso that took off much of the shotclock. Defense was more physical but it wasn't better. Sound defense will always trump hacking. so what if more guys got wacked out of the air, so they go freethrows and without the aid of zone defense penetration was more frequent. There's a reason they brought zone defense to the league and that was to force team play and to hinder isolation.


Also wanna know why jordan won wihtout a dominant big man?...Because he didnt need one...How many of those great bigs of the 90s had a complimentary wing player for them to accomplish winning a title?....
But the fact is fouls weren't always called. The league wasn't as sensitiive as it is now. And no sound defense will never trump grabbing pulling and slapping if you can get away with it. And you continue to use zone defense in your argument but acknowledge it rarely used.

And to answer you lack of bigs having help question

Shaq had penny
olajuwan had otis thorpe and then drexler
robinson had rodman and sean elliot
Ewing had oakley
smits had miller
daughtery had nance
mutombo had steve smith
mourning had larry johnson and then tim hardaway

What are you talking about?

And as a point of emphasis. You don't need to have a dominant wing to win.

[Micku]

Well, didn't Jordan had like a .614% TS? His highest TS.

Kobe had a .580% TS, his highest.

Jordan also had ten seasons above .560% TS shooting. Kobe only had four accurately seasons above 56%TS shooting. Five, if you round it off I guess.

Even if you take account the eFG% (which is suppose to add extra for the 3 point shot), Jordan had nine seasons over .50% while Kobe only had three.

Not to mention Jordan actually was very efficient in both eFG and TS. Even when the advance stats that take into account of the value of points, Jordan is still better. The FG% just shows his shot selection is better.

Jordan was more efficient. His younger years and prime is the thing that separates him from Kobe, and him being one of the best. We saw Kobe's prime, and it was great. But not up to Jordan status. You can probably make an argument over Magic and possibly Bird though.

Kobe could have a better % if he took better shots though. Jordan 2nd three peat and Kobe is very similar. But that's also show the gap between them since that was not Jordan prime and he was 32-35ish years old.

[Christofire]

Make up your mind Bill Clinton :rolleyes:
my mind is made up....


Kobe is a better player because he has more skill than Jordan....Jordan is greater because he dominated his era more than Kobe has in his ERA.

Greatness is exemplified by acchievements, Jordan being more accomplished makes him greater despite Kobe being a better player. If you wrap your head around it you'd see that i makes perfect sense.

[Christofire]

Well, didn't Jordan had like a .614% TS? His highest TS.

Kobe had a .580% TS, his highest.

Jordan also had ten seasons above .560% TS shooting. Kobe only had four accurately seasons above 56%TS shooting. Five, if you round it off I guess.

Even if you take account the eFG% (which is suppose to add extra for the 3 point shot), Jordan had nine seasons over .50% while Kobe only had three.

Not to mention Jordan actually was very efficient in both eFG and TS. Even when the advance stats that take into account of the value of points, Jordan is still better. The FG% just shows his shot selection is better.

Jordan was more efficient. His younger years and prime is the thing that separates him from Kobe, and him being one of the best. We saw Kobe's prime, and it was great. But not up to Jordan status. You can probably make an argument over Magic and possibly Bird though.

Kobe could have a better % if he took better shots though. Jordan 2nd three peat and Kobe is very similar. But that's also show the gap between them since that was not Jordan prime and he was 32-35ish years old.


Kobe shot over 2000 more 3s than Jordan did in his career....Jordan played half of his career is score happy era.....I would never compare their FG%s when Jordan's was obviously inflated

[whoartthou]

Ether for the haters! :cheers:
great song by nas

[whoartthou]

the 90s was not the most difficult era to score in....undersized wing players and no zone defense...isolation ran rampant in the 90s....Jordan was still great ofcourse....But he played half of his career in a score happy 80s to 93, and the other half in a competition deprived 94-98......

lmao.

We get it.. Kobe is the GOAT, jordan barely ranks in the top 10. WE get it.

[Bandito]

lmao.

We get it.. Kobe is the GOAT, jordan barely ranks in the top 10. WE get it.
Quoted for truth:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mark Madsen]

lmao.

We get it.. Kobe is the GOAT, jordan barely ranks in the top 10. WE get it.

Kobe the GOAT, so good that his championship teams that he lead and not Shaq didn't even need him to win

In 99-2000, Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 12-2 without him.
In 2000-2001 Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 11-3 without him.
In 2001-2002 Kobe missed 2 games, the Lakers went 2-0 without him.

The GOAT tired of being the sidekick


"[Bryant] told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a [sidekick]," Jackson wrote.
-- John Maganglo: "Phil Jackson details clashes with Kobe Bryant"; USAToday . com, Oct 12, 2004

[whoartthou]

Kobe the GOAT, so good that his championship teams that he lead and not Shaq didn't even need him to win

In 99-2000, Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 12-2 without him.
In 2000-2001 Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 11-3 without him.
In 2001-2002 Kobe missed 2 games, the Lakers went 2-0 without him.

The GOAT tired of being the sidekick


"[Bryant] told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a [sidekick]," Jackson wrote.
-- John Maganglo: "Phil Jackson details clashes with Kobe Bryant"; USAToday . com, Oct 12, 2004
:roll: :roll:

And kobe stans act like kobe and shaq were a 1a/1b type duo... :no:

I mean.. kobe even says it himself that he was a sidekick. But lets not listen to the man himself.

[Christofire]

But the fact is fouls weren't always called. The league wasn't as sensitiive as it is now. And no sound defense will never trump grabbing pulling and slapping if you can get away with it. And you continue to use zone defense in your argument but acknowledge it rarely used.

And to answer you lack of bigs having help question

Shaq had penny
olajuwan had otis thorpe and then drexler
robinson had rodman and sean elliot
Ewing had oakley
smits had miller
daughtery had nance
mutombo had steve smith
mourning had larry johnson and then tim hardaway

What are you talking about?

And as a point of emphasis. You don't need to have a dominant wing to win.


Are we seriously going to pretend that steve smith and Sean elliot were stud wing men, and consistent enough to side kick a big man..

Rik smits was not an elite big man...he was a jump shooter with below average defense...

mutombo was an average offensive player at best with great d. steve smith was a borderline all star

Zo and Johnson played together very briefly(3 years) and were undersized at every position only made the playoffs twice with the duo...

the only two elite wingman and Center combo was Shaq and penny, and The Dream and Drexler. those other team you called didnt have that luxury...this why Jordan didnt need a dominant big man. Because their were not many teams that had the complimentary wing player to complete the puzzle.

[amfirst]

I been saying this for years. Shaq may be MVP due to teams not being able to match up with him, so he dominated their thin frontline. But vs the Spurs Kobe was the MVP. He had a bigger effect in those series than Shaq. They had players to defend Shaq but they could never stop Kobe.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Pretty much everything stated in that article are myths in itself. It's incredibly poorly written. Reads more like a butthurt fanboy who wanks off to Kobe mixes on youtube than a legit piece of true journalism.

Kobe IS an INEFFICIENT player. Always has been, always will be. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. Even Reggie f*cking Miller had seasons where he shot over 50%. And he didn't drive to the rim nearly as much as Kobe used to. I don't see why Kobe n*thuggers try to make excuses for him shooting so many 3s. It means he's a STUPID player taking STUPID shots. 3s are low percentage shots to begin with, that usually lead to long rebounds, and fast break opportunities for the opposing team.

Kobe WAS Robin during the 3peat years. NOTHING will ever change that, it's FACT. It was WIDELY accepted during those years. Only now that Kobe n*thuggers have begun to realize that their career expectations for Kobe are going to fall way short, they've started to try and revise history and make sh*t up. I can't believe the myth of Shaq being taken out of the 4th quarter because he was "detrimental" to the team is still being perpetrated.

Kobe WAS the major reason for the breakup of the team. Not the ONLY reason, but the MAJOR one. ^^^That quote above sums it all up. He said he was tired of being a sidekick and Shaq being on the team would definitely affect his decision to resign or not. Hell, just read Phil's book "The Last Season". Everything you need to know is in there. It illustrates perfectly how much of a piece of sh*t Kobe is and how instrumental he was in the breakup of that team.

Kobe is a decent defender, but NOT the level he's been made out to be. He hasn't "defended" anyone in years. Here's an EXACT quote from Phil Jackson in his book, "The Last Season". This is from 2004 mind you.


Kobe's defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league's all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he's gambled too frequently, putting us out position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn't keep his feet on the ground.

Not to mention, I've NEVER seen a superstar player who's hidden on defense as frequently as Kobe.

Again, nobody EVER says Kobe is not clutch. Just that he isn't in some other stratosphere when comparing other players in the league, let alone all time. He is rather comparable to other elite players.

Saying Pau Gasol is the best player on the Lakers is stupid, and no RATIONAL person EVER says that.

I don't understand what the Derek Fisher bit means. It has nothing to do with Kobe. However, the majority of non Lakers fans respect Fisher's veteran leadership and clutch play in the playoffs. It's ONLY Lakers fans themselves that I always see complaining about him and calling for him to be benched.

[Colby Brian]

Kobe the GOAT, so good that his championship teams that he lead and not Shaq didn't even need him to win

In 99-2000, Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 12-2 without him.
In 2000-2001 Kobe missed 14 games, the Lakers went 11-3 without him.
In 2001-2002 Kobe missed 2 games, the Lakers went 2-0 without him.

The GOAT tired of being the sidekick


"[Bryant] told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a [sidekick]," Jackson wrote.
-- John Maganglo: "Phil Jackson details clashes with Kobe Bryant"; USAToday . com, Oct 12, 2004

what happened in game 4 of 2000 finals when shaq fouled out?

what sidekick puts up 29.4 ppg, 26.6 ppg in playoff runs?

did you watch kobe vs the spurs in 2001?

phil took shaq out in the 4th quarter many times because he cant hit free throws to save his life, kobe was the closer

no kobe, no ring

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg

haterz hate winners

[whoartthou]

I been saying this for years. Shaq may be MVP due to teams not being able to match up with him, so he dominated their thin frontline. But vs the Spurs Kobe was the MVP. He had a bigger effect in those series than Shaq. They had players to defend Shaq but they could never stop Kobe.

It is called match-ups. Sure Shaq did not match-up as well against the spurs as kobe... But lets not use one series to override the total effects. Shaq was the leader and main Kat of those early 2000 teams. Even kobe fking admits it..

[whoartthou]

Pretty much everything stated in that article are myths in itself. It's incredibly poorly written. Reads more like a butthurt fanboy who wanks off to Kobe mixes on youtube than a legit piece of true journalism.

Kobe IS an INEFFICIENT player. Always has been, always will be. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. Even Reggie f*cking Miller had seasons where he shot over 50%. And he didn't drive to the rim nearly as much as Kobe used to. I don't see why Kobe n*thuggers try to make excuses for him shooting so many 3s. It means he's a STUPID player taking STUPID shots. 3s are low percentage shots to begin with, that usually lead to long rebounds, and fast break opportunities for the opposing team.

Kobe WAS Robin during the 3peat years. NOTHING will ever change that, it's FACT. It was WIDELY accepted during those years. Only now that Kobe n*thuggers have begun to realize that their career expectations for Kobe are going to fall way short, they've started to try and revise history and make sh*t up. I can't believe the myth of Shaq being taken out of the 4th quarter because he was "detrimental" to the team is still being perpetrated.

Kobe WAS the major reason for the breakup of the team. Not the ONLY reason, but the MAJOR one. ^^^That quote above sums it all up. He said he was tired of being a sidekick and Shaq being on the team would definitely affect his decision to resign or not. Hell, just read Phil's book "The Last Season". Everything you need to know is in there. It illustrates perfectly how much of a piece of sh*t Kobe is and how instrumental he was in the breakup of that team.

Kobe is a decent defender, but NOT the level he's been made out to be. He hasn't "defended" anyone in years. Here's an EXACT quote from Phil Jackson in his book, "The Last Season". This is from 2004 mind you.



Not to mention, I've NEVER seen a superstar player who's hidden on defense as frequently as Kobe.

Again, nobody EVER says Kobe is not clutch. Just that he isn't in some other stratosphere when comparing other players in the league, let alone all time. He is rather comparable to other elite players.

Saying Pau Gasol is the best player on the Lakers is stupid, and no RATIONAL person EVER says that.

I don't understand what the Derek Fisher bit means. It has nothing to do with Kobe. However, the majority of non Lakers fans respect Fisher's veteran leadership and clutch play in the playoffs. It's ONLY Lakers fans themselves that I always see complaining about him and calling for him to be benched.

i have noticed that countless amounts of time in many laker games. I just see kobe standing around pointing his fingers in directions, but never really playing defense himself.. it seems hes eager to just shoot the ball (no joke or hate, just my opinion).

[whoartthou]

what happened in game 4 of 2000 finals when shaq fouled out?

what sidekick puts up 29.4 ppg, 26.6 ppg in playoff runs?

did you watch kobe vs the spurs in 2001?

phil took shaq out in the 4th quarter many times because he cant hit free throws to save his life, kobe was the closer

no kobe, no ring

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg

haterz hate winners

dood, we know that kobe was essential to the lakers. Of course they would probably not win a ring if it was not for having a good second option. Same can be said with all other time greats (jordan,johnson,bird,kareem, and shaq blah blah blah). The point you are missing, however, is that shaq was the clear cut number one option/leader/whatever you want to call it. Legit laker fans were saying the same shit in the early 2000s if i recall.

Yes kobe had insane numbers.. he is afterall the GOAT 2nd banana ever...

[Colby Brian]

dood, we know that kobe was essential to the lakers. Of course they would probably not win a ring if it was not for having a good second option. Same can be said with all other time greats (jordan,johnson,bird,kareem, and shaq blah blah blah). The point you are missing, however, is that shaq was the clear cut number one option/leader/whatever you want to call it. Legit laker fans were saying the same shit in the early 2000s if i recall.

Yes kobe had insane numbers.. he is afterall the GOAT 2nd banana ever...

what about 2009 and 2010, 2 titles and 2 finals mvps, clear 1st option
still 32 years old

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ this ridiculous Kobe stan writing such a huge article and citing Jordan constantly. These stans have nothing better to do with their lives than to try and make Kobe into something that he isn't - namely, better than Jordan.

[Micku]

Kobe shot over 2000 more 3s than Jordan did in his career....Jordan played half of his career is score happy era.....I would never compare their FG%s when Jordan's was obviously inflated

Efficiency:

Which is another reason why he isn't as efficient. Jordan didn't take 3s much, and he just shot better.

And the defensive thing is silly. They played in a similar defense in the late 90s, and in the early 90s there was nobody on Jordan's caliber. Jordan while he was 34/35 shot an eFG (takes account of 3 pters) % of .473, and was one of his worse efficient seasons.


Young Kobe in the 2000-2002 had:

2000: .488
2001: .484
2002: .479

This was young Kobe who can finish better at the rim. You mean to tell me that a young Jordan cannot do better when an old Jordan who was 34/35 years old did things that were similar to Kobe's efficiency?

Jordan already did better.

80s and early 90s efficiency:

Actually, you're right in saying that their FG% is inflated. But it wasn't exactly due to lack of defense as much as shot selection. They didn't shoot any 3s. But if you check their eFG%, it's basically the same as it is today. Today's game actually has more average eFG%. The points per game is inflated too, but it mostly because they ran more. Plus teams back then were more stacked with more weapons.

I'm using eFG% because it gives values the 3 more as a point.

Kobe's MVP year 2007-08: The league's average eFG% was .497%. Kobe shot .503 eFG% that year.

(If you are using this stat) In 2007-08, the average DRtg was 107.5.




Jordan's 1st MVP (1987-88): The league's average eFG% was .489%. Jordan shot .537 eFG% that year. And that wasn't even Jordan's best, and he hardly shot 3s.

(If you are using this stat) In 1987-88, the average DRtg was 108.0.


Jordan actually shot waaay above the eFG% mark, and in 1987-88 has a inferior eFG% than in the 07-08 season. Jordan was superior when it comes to efficient. Jordan is like Kobe V2, except a better driver and weaker 3pt shooter.



To the OP:

I'm sure if you calculate Jordan's Bulls years only, then he would have a higher TS% rating.

[whoartthou]

what about 2009 and 2010, 2 titles and 2 finals mvps, clear 1st option
still 32 years old

what about 2009/2010? :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

This has nothing to do with those years?

[Big#50]

Another Kobestan circle jerk. Jordan was juat a way better player. ****, this site needs mods.

[whoartthou]

Efficiency:

Which is another reason why he isn't as efficient. Jordan didn't take 3s much, and he just shot better.

And the defensive thing is silly. They played in a similar defense in the late 90s, and in the early 90s there was nobody on Jordan's caliber. Jordan while he was 34/35 shot an eFG (takes account of 3 pters) % of .473, and was one of his worse efficient seasons.


Young Kobe in the 2000-2002 had:

2000: .488
2001: .484
2002: .479

This was young Kobe who can finish better at the rim. You mean to tell me that a young Jordan cannot do better when an old Jordan who was 34/35 years old did things that were similar to Kobe's efficiency?

Jordan already did better.

80s and early 90s efficiency:

Actually, you're right in saying that their FG% is inflated. But it wasn't exactly due to lack of defense as much as shot selection. They didn't shoot any 3s. But if you check their eFG%, it's basically the same as it is today. Today's game is actually has more average eFG%. The points per game is inflated too, but it mostly because they ran more. Plus teams back then were more stacked with more weapons.

I'm using eFG% because it gives values the 3 more as a point.

Kobe's MVP year 2007-08: The league's average eFG% was .497%. Kobe shot .503 eFG% that year.

(If you are using this stat) In 2007-08, the average DRtg was 107.5.




Jordan's 1st MVP (1987-88): The league's average eFG% was .489%. Jordan shot .537 eFG% that year. And that wasn't even Jordan's best, and he hardly shot 3s.

(If you are using this stat) In 1987-88, the average DRtg was 108.0.


Jordan actually shot waaay above the eFG% mark, and in 1987-88 has a inferior eFG% than in the 07-08 season. Jordan was superior when it comes to efficient. Jordan is like Kobe V2, except a better driver and weaker 3pt shooter.



To the OP:

I'm sure if you calculate Jordan's Bulls years only, then he would have a higher TS% rating.
:applause:

you just absolutely shat on that christ douche bag.

[Colby Brian]

what about 2009/2010? :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

This has nothing to do with those years?

that madsen guy said kobe was the goat 2nd banana
just provin that kobe won as a clear cut #1 :confusedshrug:

[whoartthou]

Another Kobestan circle jerk. Jordan was juat a way better player. ****, this site needs mods.

Well, according to kobe stans logic, the following is true:

A) Mj played in an era where players had no idea how to play defense and it was a foreign concept

B) Kobe takes more outside (i.e. stupid shots), and thats why kobes field goal percent is lower

C) Since kobe takes more difficult shots..and since he EVENTUALLY makes them.. he is > JORDAN

D) Kobe has more all team defensive selections than jordan.. He is > defensively than jordan

E) Kobe is the most feared kat since King Kong
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[whoartthou]

that madsen guy said kobe was the goat 2nd banana
just provin that kobe won as a clear cut #1 :confusedshrug:

I said that.

Yes kobe won as a clear cut number one.. but in those early 2000s years, who is/was a better second banana than Kobe Bean Bryant? No one...

[Colby Brian]

I said that.

Yes kobe won as a clear cut number one.. but in those early 2000s years, who is/was a better second banana than Kobe Bean Bryant? No one...

in 2001 and 2002, it was 1a and 1b,
2000 kobe was 2nd banana

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html look at the playoff stats in 01 and 02

[Christofire]

:applause:

you just absolutely shat on that christ douche bag.

he's just proving why arguing their FG%s are moot. My opinion still doesn't change. I've seen enough of them both and my Opinion is that Bryant is the better player he's done it against stiffer competition in a more competitive ERA.
all of these eFG and other advance stats doesn't change my opinion.

My opinion of Kobe will always be that he is a better player than Jordan and if LeBron can somehow become more of a crunch time assassain, expand his offensive game and get some rings my opinion of LeBron will be that He's a better player than Kobe. Thats just how it is. Despite me thinking Kobe is the best player i've ever sseen doesn't make me put him at the God status that you people place Jordan at. He's just another great player that will come and will go and will be surpassed whether i like or not. You guys should get Jordan's d**k out of your a**es. Bryant is here and he's better

[whoartthou]

in 2001 and 2002, it was 1a and 1b,
2000 kobe was 2nd banana

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html look at the playoff stats in 01 and 02

dood. It isn't just the stats. Its the impact and everything. Kobe might have been the "closer" for that team in some situations.. but SHAQ was drawing doubles constantly throughout 85 percent of the game..

Lets be real here. If it truly was a 1A/1B type situation.. Phil would not have written in his book how kobe complained about being the second banana. Kobe knows it.. Phil knows it.. and so should you.

[Micku]

he's just proving why arguing their FG%s are moot. My opinion still doesn't change. I've seen enough of them both and my Opinion is that Bryant is the better player he's done it against stiffer competition in a more competitive ERA.
all of these eFG and other advance stats doesn't change my opinion.

My opinion of Kobe will always be that he is a better player than Jordan and if LeBron can some become more crunch time assassain, expanding his offensive game and get some rings my opinion of LeBron will be that He's a better player than Kobe. Thats just how it is. Despite me thinking Kobe is the best player i've ever sseen doesn't make me put him at the God status that you people place Jordan at. He's just another great player that will come and will go and will be surpassed whether i like or not. You guys should get Kordan's d**k out of your a**es. Bryant is here and he's better

I'm proving why Jordan is better efficiently. And he is better with the basic stats to advance stats. There is no where that Kobe is better, except for the 3 pt shot.

Subjectively, if you believe that Kobe is the better player, I can't really argue with you if you ignore the numbers. But I want to ask you:

How is Kobe better? What does he do better than Jordan when his style is basically like old Jordan?

[whoartthou]

he's just proving why arguing their FG%s are moot. My opinion still doesn't change. I've seen enough of them both and my Opinion is that Bryant is the better player he's done it against stiffer competition in a more competitive ERA.
all of these eFG and other advance stats doesn't change my opinion.

My opinion of Kobe will always be that he is a better player than Jordan and if LeBron can somehow become more of a crunch time assassain, expand his offensive game and get some rings my opinion of LeBron will be that He's a better player than Kobe. Thats just how it is. Despite me thinking Kobe is the best player i've ever sseen doesn't make me put him at the God status that you people place Jordan at. He's just another great player that will come and will go and will be surpassed whether i like or not. You guys should get Jordan's d**k out of your a**es. Bryant is here and he's better

Jordan isn't even my favorite player. :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

I don't even treat jordan like a god. He isn't even a clear cut number one goat for me (like for others).

Majority of sane fans, however, will tell you that jordan is > kobe. Maybe it is you who needs to get kobes dick out of your asshole.

[whoartthou]

I'm proving why Jordan is better efficiently. And he is better with the basic stats to advance stats. There is no where that Kobe is better, except for the 3 pt shot.

Subjectively, if you believe that Kobe is the better player, I can't really argue with you if you ignore the numbers. But I want to ask you:

How is Kobe better? What does he do better than Jordan when his style is basically like old Jordan?

i will summarize his reason:

A) Mj played in an era where players had no idea how to play defense and it was a foreign concept

B) Kobe takes more outside (i.e. stupid shots), and thats why kobes field goal percent is lower

C) Since kobe takes more difficult shots..and since he EVENTUALLY makes them.. he is > JORDAN

D) Kobe has more all team defensive selections than jordan.. He is > defensively than jordan

E) Kobe is the most feared kat since King Kong

[Bandito]

i will summarize his reason:

A) Mj played in an era where players had no idea how to play defense and it was a foreign concept

B) Kobe takes more outside (i.e. stupid shots), and thats why kobes field goal percent is lower

C) Since kobe takes more difficult shots..and since he EVENTUALLY makes them.. he is > JORDAN

D) Kobe has more all team defensive selections than jordan.. He is > defensively than jordan

E) Kobe is the most feared kat since King KongDamn!

[Christofire]

I'm proving why Jordan is better efficiently. And he is better with the basic stats to advance stats. There is no where that Kobe is better, except for the 3 pt shot.

Subjectively, if you believe that Kobe is the better player, I can't really argue with you if you ignore the numbers. But I want to ask you:

How is Kobe better? What does he do better than Jordan when his style is basically like old Jordan?



Kobe is a better shooter, better handle, better playmaker, better fundamentals, equally as clutch, better man defense,

Jordan was a slightly better athlete, and a better slasher than bryant, a better help defender.
Jordan was stronger. Jordan post game was stronger to bryant finessee post game. Kobe has more post moves

Kobe is simply a better all around and more polished player than jordan was which is why i think he's better. Phil Jackson has said himself that Kobe is more skilled that Jordan. who else do you need to hear it from?Phil jackson has also said he's given more responsibilities than he's ever given jordan. he said that he never asked jordan to be a playmaker, but he asked Kobe to be.

[NBASTATMAN]

Are we seriously going to pretend that steve smith and Sean elliot were stud wing men, and consistent enough to side kick a big man..

Rik smits was not an elite big man...he was a jump shooter with below average defense...

mutombo was an average offensive player at best with great d. steve smith was a borderline all star

Zo and Johnson played together very briefly(3 years) and were undersized at every position only made the playoffs twice with the duo...

the only two elite wingman and Center combo was Shaq and penny, and The Dream and Drexler. those other team you called didnt have that luxury...this why Jordan didnt need a dominant big man. Because their were not many teams that had the complimentary wing player to complete the puzzle.


Karl Malone and Stockton qualify on that elite level.. Them bad boys beat Hakeem, drexler and Barkley when they still were very good..


Others that were very good..

Payton and kemp beat hakeem and drexler as well

brad daugherty had price and nance

ewing had starks, rolando, mark jackson and xavier, wilkins in 92. I think they were very good.. Xavier gave Pippen fits. That was a great series.


Others that were good


drob, sean elliot, cummings, strickland
Zo, grandma, and gill

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe is a better shooter, better handle, better playmaker, better fundamentals, equally as clutch, better man defense,

Jordan was a slightly better athlete, and a better slasher than bryant, a better help defender.
Jordan was stronger. Jordan post game was stronger to bryant finessee post game. Kobe has more post moves

Kobe is simply a better all around and more polished player than jordan was which is why i think he's better. Phil Jackson has said himself that Kobe is more skilled that Jordan. who else do you need to hear it from?Phil jackson has also said he's given more responsibilities than he's ever given jordan. he said that he never asked jordan to be a playmaker, but he asked Kobe to be.

:lol

Phil just said that Kobe isn't AT MJ's level..


Tex has stated that he is not so sure kobe is the shooter mj was at mj's best.
Tex has stated that kobe's defense is bad.

[Replay32]

Nobody is immune to getting old, declining and getting statistically worse. It happens to everyone and kobe will be no different. kobe's career numbers will take a hit as he ages. Jordan did way more in 13 seasons as a bull than kobe as done his whole career. Kobe is one of the all time greats but...

MJ>Kobe

[Christofire]

John Wooden co-signs Kobe and so does Jerry west.

If Kobe gets six There's no way you people can deny that he's atleast equal to jordan

[Christofire]

:lol

Phil just said that Kobe isn't AT MJ's level..


The typical response i expected. I'm going with Phil..If he says Kobe is more skilled then he obviously is

[whoartthou]

:lol

Phil just said that Kobe isn't AT MJ's level..

yea, but to these stans.. if it doesn't favor kobe, it never happened. Phil also said in his book that kobe was tired of being second fiddle to Shaq.. yet according to these stans, kobe was 1b.
:confusedshrug:

[whoartthou]

The typical response i expected. I'm going with Phil..If he says Kobe is more skilled then he obviously is

You are contradicting yourself here sir.

[Christofire]

Nobody is immune to getting old, declining and getting statistically worse. It happens to everyone and kobe will be no different. kobe's career numbers will take a hit as he ages. Jordan did way more in 13 seasons as a bull than kobe as done his whole career. Kobe is one of the all time greats but...

MJ>Kobe

Way more?....he did more but i would say way more.....6 is only 1 more than 5...

[Micku]

Kobe is a better shooter, better handle, better playmaker, better fundamentals, equally as clutch, better man defense,

Jordan was a slightly better athlete, and a better slasher than bryant, a better help defender.
Jordan was stronger. Jordan post game was stronger to bryant finessee post game. Kobe has more post moves

Kobe is simply a better all around and more polished player than jordan was which is why i think he's better. Phil Jackson has said himself that Kobe is more skilled that Jordan. who else do you need to hear it from?Phil jackson has also said he's given more responsibilities than he's ever given jordan. he said that he never asked jordan to be a playmaker, but he asked Kobe to be.

Haha. I won't argue with you, even though I disagree that probably won't change your mind. I think it'll go to a long debate. But I'll just point out with Phil Jackson said recently:

[quote]

[B]"Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there,

[Christofire]

You are contradicting yourself here sir.


contradict this



KOBE>JORDAN

[whoartthou]

contradict this



KOBE>JORDAN

Read the above quote sir. Your boy, phil jackson, clearly states that kobe is not = to Jordan, yet you base your whole argument on what he says.

[Christofire]

Annnd, it's probably best to take in someone's opinion after they retire IMO.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Micku]Haha. I won't argue with you, even though I disagree that probably won't change your mind. I think it'll go to a long debate. But I'll just point out with Phil Jackson said recently:



- http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-03-14/phil-jackson-says-kobe-bryant-not-in-michael-jordans-company

Vintage Phil....He's obviously firing Kobe up to go and kill someone's child in the playoffs. send me a link to an interview if LA wins another ring this year and he's asked this question. Since when has Phil jackson ever given kobe the higest praise for anything during the season?..he's always super critical of kobe during the season then after lakers take care of business says what he really wants to say

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan isn't even my favorite player. :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

I don't even treat jordan like a god. He isn't even a clear cut number one goat for me (like for others).

Majority of sane fans, however, will tell you that jordan is > kobe. Maybe it is you who needs to get kobes dick out of your asshole.


:applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

contradict this



KOBE>JORDAN


:sleeping

[whoartthou]

He'salluding to Jordan being better?....Did he or didn't he say that Kobe is more skilled. He basically talked about Jordan big hands and being stronger than Kobe most of the interview. He didnt want to throw Jordan under the bus so he gave just his just due. nothing any fan of Jordan knows that he didnt do better than Bryant does

I honestly can't wait till jackson retires. I am sure he will spill the beans then.

[Replay32]

Way more?....he did more but i would say way more.....6 is only 1 more than 5...

I'm not talking about just championships man. Jordan had 6 finals MVPs 5 Mvps, 10 scoring titles 7 straight. All time leader in ppg in the playoffs. All time leader in 50pt games in the playoffs. DPOY, more spg, more bpg, etc. There's more and he did all of this in just 13 seasons as a bull.

[whoartthou]

contradict this



KOBE>JORDAN, in raping women
:applause: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[whoartthou]

I'm not talking about just championships man. Jordan had 6 finals MVPs 5 Mvps, 10 scoring titles 7 straight. All time leader in ppg in the playoffs. All time leader in 50pt games in the playoffs. DPOY, more spg, more bpg, etc. There's more and he did all of this in just 13 seasons as a bull.
Don't forget, jordan has steals per game awards, i think he is number one on blocks for SG and number 2 or 3 on steals on an all time list.

And lets not forget his defensive player of the year award... which is INSANELY hard to get from the perspective of a perimeter player.

[Replay32]

And phil has never said Kobe is better than MJ. Phil has said countless times that MJ is the best player he's ever coached. He's coached both players. You would have to be retarded if you don't know what that means.

[whoartthou]

And phil has never said Kobe is better than MJ. Phil has said countless times that MJ is the best player he's ever coached. He's coached both players. You would have to be retarded if you don't know what that means.

Dood, christ is basing his argument in the fact that being "more" skilled means you are a better player. I honestly don't think kobe is more skilled than jordan though..

[NBASTATMAN]

The typical response i expected. I'm going with Phil..If he says Kobe is more skilled then he obviously is


I actually agree. I think Kobe is a bit more skilled in some areas than mj.. But the physical abilities you have the less skill you need.. Look at lebron.. Lebron is much less skilled than Kobe but he has played at a higher level for the last three years now..

[Christofire]

And phil has never said Kobe is better than MJ. Phil has said countless times that MJ is the best player he's ever coached. He's coached both players. You would have to be retarded if you don't know what that means.


When phil retires we'll hear it all...i;m with whoartthou on this one. Phil jackson is the zen master for a reason. what better way to keep Kobe motivated than to tell him that he should not be mentioned in the same breath as the man he's sought out to prove he;s better than

[Replay32]

When phil retires we'll hear it all...i;m with whoartthou on this one. Phil jackson is the zen master for a reason. what better way to keep Kobe motivated than to tell him that he should not be mentioned in the same breath as the man he's sought out to prove he;s better than
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[whoartthou]

When phil retires we'll hear it all...i;m with whoartthou on this one. Phil jackson is the zen master for a reason. what better way to keep Kobe motivated than to tell him that he should not be mentioned in the same breath as the man he's sought out to prove he;s better than
:roll: :roll: :roll:

I guess you can interpret it that way

[Christofire]

I actually agree. I think Kobe is a bit more skilled than mj.. But the physical abilities you have the less skill you need.. Look at lebron.. Lebron is much less skilled than Kobe but he has played at a higher level for the last three years now..

played at a higher level against inferior opponents in the weak eastern conference. He chokes when facing elite teams. james is a regular season assassain but when he's hit in the mouth by a bigger badder team or one that equals his team he folds like clean clothes. James hasn;t earned the right to be compared to Kobe just yet. You may not agree that Kobe is better than Jordan but atleast it is a plausible discussion

[Christofire]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I guess you can interpret it that way


the arguments you and i will have on this board will be legendary ....believe it

[Replay32]

Dood, christ is basing his argument in the fact that being "more" skilled means you are a better player. I honestly don't think kobe is more skilled than jordan though..

Kobe has patterned 90% of his game after jordan. Those are kobe's words not mine. It helps kobe that he plays the same position, has the same coach and plays in the same system. He can study and take notes. But Mike was original. I remember when kobe first came in the league asking MJ how does he execute is fadaway.

Not a knock on kobe, but kobe has learned a lot from studying MJ's game. Kobe is just not as quick, as athletic, and doesn't have the same stamina to carry a team offensive and defensively like MJ.

[whoartthou]

Kobe has patterned 90% of his game after jordan. Those are kobe's words not mine. It helps kobe that he plays the same position, has the same coach and plays in the same system. He can study and take notes. But Mike was original. I remember when kobe first came in the league asking MJ how does he execute is fadaway.

Not a knock on kobe, but kobe has learned a lot from studying MJ's game. Kobe is just not as quick, as athletic, and doesn't have the same stamina to carry a team offensive and defensively like MJ.

completely agree. Like in almost 99.999 % of cases.. the original is always better than the copy.

[whoartthou]

--0

[Micku]

He'salluding to Jordan being better?....Did he or didn't he say that Kobe is more skilled. He basically talked about Jordan big hands and being stronger than Kobe most of the interview. He didnt want to throw Jordan under the bus so he gave just his just due. nothing any fan of Jordan knows that he didnt do better than Bryant does

Ok dude. three things:

1. Just because you are more skilled, it doesn't mean you the better player. Tim Hardaway and Steve Nash are more skilled than Shaq. But Shaq is the better player.

Hakeem is the most skilled center of all time. He had better handles, he can shoot a jumper, he can probably defend the 3-5, shoot his FTs, and he is one of the best defensive centers of all time. But he isn't better than Kareem, Wilt, or Shaq (arguably) to most people.

Mchale is probably the most skilled guy in the post, but he isn't better than KG, Barkley, or Malone to most people.

2. When Phil Jackson said that Kobe was more skilled, he instantly talked about the things that Jordan is better. He even said that Jordan's interior game is unmatched. What does Phil Jackson mean by interior game? Is that a skill too? If so, why isn't Kobe better?

3. Did Phil Jackson not say that "It's one to be like him, it's another thing to be him (Jordan)." He also said that it was not fair to compare anybody to Michael Jordan because Jordan was that remarkable. You are ignoring the basic Phil Jackson confession that Phil Jackson think Jordan is better. Why do you ignore when Phil Jackson said:



"(Kobe) doesn't shoot the same percentage (.455) as Michael (.497). He has the same characteristics as Michael, but he's not the same player. It takes nothing away from him — he's a great player in his own right."


He basically said that Jordan is the better player, but Kobe is a great player as well. Are you ignoring that? What do you take from this Phil Jackson quote if you don't think that's what he is saying?

----

If Kobe is the most skilled, he doesn't show it. Jordan once average 30+ ppg, with 8 apg, and 8 rpg. I think he also has the record of having the most blocks for a guard. And he is top 2 in steals of all time. Kobe doesn't have any of those records.

[whoartthou]

Ok dude. three things:

1. Just because you are more skilled, it doesn't mean you the better player. Tim Hardaway and Steve Nash are more skilled than Shaq. But Shaq is the better player.

Hakeem is the most skilled center of all time. He had better handles, he can shoot a jumper, he can probably defend the 3-5, shoot his FTs, and he is one of the best defensive centers of all time. But he isn't better than Kareem, Wilt, or Shaq (arguably) to most people.

Mchale is probably the most skilled guy in the post, but he isn't better than KG, Barkley, or Malone to most people.

2. When Phil Jackson said that Kobe was more skilled, he instantly talked about the things that Jordan is better. He even said that Jordan's interior game is unmatched. What does Phil Jackson mean by interior game? Is that a skill too? If so, why isn't Kobe better?

3. Did Phil Jackson not say that "It's one to be like him, it's another thing to be him (Jordan)." He also said that it was not fair to compare anybody to Michael Jordan because Jordan was that remarkable. You are ignoring the basic Phil Jackson confession that Phil Jackson think Jordan is better. Why do you ignore when Phil Jackson said:



He basically said that Jordan is the better player, but Kobe is a great player as well. Are you ignoring that? What do you take from this Phil Jackson quote if you don't think that's what he is saying?

if i could rep you.. repped. This dude gets it.

[NBASTATMAN]

played at a higher level against inferior opponents in the weak eastern conference. He chokes when facing elite teams. james is a regular season assassain but when he's hit in the mouth by a bigger badder team or one that equals his team he folds like clean clothes. James hasn;t earned the right to be compared to Kobe just yet. You may not agree that Kobe is better than Jordan but atleast it is a plausible discussion


Look Kobe has had the same problems that Lebron has vs the top teams.. Possbily more.. Lebron has usually played better than kobe has vs the same top teams.. You are correct that Lebron hasn't had a kobe type career so in those terms you can't compare them.. Kobe is easily above Lebron in terms of career.. But not the past three seasons..


Kobe being better is not reasonable discussion according to Phil.. Actually Phil says kobe shouldn't be compared to MJ..LOL

[Christofire]

Ok dude. three things:

1. Just because you are more skilled, it doesn't mean you the better player. Tim Hardaway and Steve Nash are more skilled than Shaq. But Shaq is the better player.

Hakeem is the most skilled center of all time. He had better handles, he can shoot a jumper, he can probably defend the 3-5, shoot his FTs, and he is one of the best defensive centers of all time. But he isn't better than Kareem, Wilt, or Shaq (arguably) to most people.

Mchale is probably the most skilled guy in the post, but he isn't better than KG, Barkley, or Malone to most people.

2. When Phil Jackson said that Kobe was more skilled, he instantly talked about the things that Jordan is better. He even said that Jordan's interior game is unmatched. What does Phil Jackson mean by interior game? Is that a skill too? If so, why isn't Kobe better?

3. Did Phil Jackson not say that "It's one to be like him, it's another thing to be him (Jordan)." He also said that it was not fair to compare anybody to Michael Jordan because Jordan was that remarkable. You are ignoring the basic Phil Jackson confession that Phil Jackson think Jordan is better. Why do you ignore when Phil Jackson said:



He basically said that Jordan is the better player, but Kobe is a great player as well. Are you ignoring that? What do you take from this Phil Jackson quote if you don't think that's what he is saying?


iPhil has never said something this blatant in regards to Kobe and Jordan out of the millions of times he's been asked to compare the two. Which is why i think this is a play to motivate bryant. Phil has always been known for his antics of getting into peoples heads. He wants a highly motivated kobe and what way better than to tell the hardest worker to ever lace em up that "you should not be compared to MJ" the man who he seeks to be better than. Don't be so naive. Phil Jackson has always been one of th best coaches if not the best coaches at getting the best out His players. The best way to get the best out of Kobe is to doubt him, criticize him and or Challenge him.

But there is also the chance of him being serious, and if he is i can respect that after Jordan is his first

[whoartthou]

iPhil has never said something this blatant in regards to Kobe and Jordan out of the millions of times he's been asked to compare the two. Which is why i think this is a play to motivate bryant. Phil has always been known for his antics of getting into peoples heads. He wants a highly motivated kobe and what way better than to tell the hardest worker to ever lace em up that "you should not be compared to MJ" the man who he seeks to be better than. Don't be so naive. Phil Jackson has always been one of th best coaches if not the best coaches at getting the best out His players. The best way to get the best out of Kobe is to doubt him, criticize him and or Challenge him.

But there is also the chance of him being serious, and if he is i can respect that after Jordan is his first
lmao.. i got some nasty ideas from that.


http://i52.tinypic.com/30ii1ec.gif

[Replay32]

iPhil has never said something this blatant in regards to Kobe and Jordan out of the millions of times he's been asked to compare the two. Which is why i think this is a play to motivate bryant. Phil has always been known for his antics of getting into peoples heads. He wants a highly motivated kobe and what way better than to tell the hardest worker to ever lace em up that "you should not be compared to MJ" the man who he seeks to be better than. Don't be so naive. Phil Jackson has always been one of th best coaches if not the best coaches at getting the best out His players. The best way to get the best out of Kobe is to doubt him, criticize him and or Challenge him.

But there is also the chance of him being serious, and if he is i can respect that after Jordan is his first

What has kobe said about he and MJ? I tell you...

"Don't compare me to MJ, we are talking about the greatest player to ever play".

"90% of my game is because of Michael".

[Christofire]

Look Kobe has had the same problems that Lebron has vs the top teams.. Possbily more.. Lebron has usually played better than kobe has vs the same top teams.. You are correct that Lebron hasn't had a kobe type career so in those terms you can't compare them.. Kobe is easily above Lebron in terms of career.. But not the past three seasons..


Kobe being better is not reasonable discussion according to Phil.. Actually Phil says kobe shouldn't be compared to MJ..LOL

Kobe has 2 rings and 3 finals appearances in the past 3 seasons. Kobe has played great in the playoffs the past 3 seasons. James has failed in the past 3 seasons. Kobe has overcome elite teams james has not.

[Micku]

iPhil has never said something this blatant in regards to Kobe and Jordan out of the millions of times he's been asked to compare the two. Which is why i think this is a play to motivate bryant. Phil has always been known for his antics of getting into peoples heads. He wants a highly motivated kobe and what way better than to tell the hardest worker to ever lace em up that "you should not be compared to MJ" the man who he seeks to be better than. Don't be so naive. Phil Jackson has always been one of th best coaches if not the best coaches at getting the best out His players. The best way to get the best out of Kobe is to doubt him, criticize him and or Challenge him.

But there is also the chance of him being serious, and if he is i can respect that after Jordan is his first

Haha. But you trust him in saying that Kobe is the most skilled guy?

Either way, I guess you'll find out the truth of what he thinks after he retires I suppose. Then he won't really have anything to hide.

But regardless, I think that Jordan is just better than Kobe across the board. If you think otherwise, then I can't change your mind about it. Just argue the reasons why I think that. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe has 2 rings and 3 finals appearances in the past 3 seasons. Kobe has played great in the playoffs the past 3 seasons. James has failed in the past 3 seasons. Kobe has overcome elite teams james has not.


Pau overcame the Celtics but Dhoward hasn't.. Pau beat dhoward head to head.. I guess Pau is clearly much better than DHOWARD... :oldlol:

[whoartthou]

Pau overcame the Celtics but Dhoward hasn't.. Pau beat dhoward head to head.. I guess Pau is clearly much better than DHOWARD... :oldlol:
:applause:

[Christofire]

What has kobe said about he and MJ? I tell you...

"Don't compare me to MJ, we are talking about the greatest player to ever play".

"90% of my game is because of Michael".

That is out of respect,,,he should be respectful....Jordan has dominated an ERA like no other i will never dispute that and Kobe should pay homage to the man that paved the way for him. I've said jordan is greater because he dominated his era in a way that kobe hasn't in his ERA, but Kobe is still a better player in my opinion.


essentially then Jordan is greater relative to his dominance rather than him being the better player. Jordan was quite simply too much for the era in which he played. Athleticism and talent has since caught up in todays league and the gap in competition has closed making it harder for any 1 player to dominate the way jordan did. Kobe is not that much better than his peers as jordan was. that's what it really comes down to

[NBASTATMAN]

What has kobe said about he and MJ? I tell you...

"Don't compare me to MJ, we are talking about the greatest player to ever play".

"90% of my game is because of Michael".


the other 10 percent is allen iverson :lol .. That's why he shoots a low percentage..

[NBASTATMAN]

:applause:


Christofire is done..

[Christofire]

Haha. But you trust him in saying that Kobe is the most skilled guy?

Either way, I guess you'll find out the truth of what he thinks after he retires I suppose. Then he won't really have anything to hide.

But regardless, I think that Jordan is just better than Kobe across the board. If you think otherwise, then I can't change your mind about it. Just argue the reasons why I think that. Agree to disagree I suppose.

yip i guess we will.

[AlphaWolf24]

"Kobe is the greatest allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001

[Christofire]

"Kobe is the greatest allaround player I ever coached" - Phil Jackson 2001
finally i got some back up in here...

[AlphaWolf24]

completely agree. Like in almost 99.999 % of cases.. the original is always better than the copy.


wrong again......especially in sports.

Kobe is a hybrid of all the greats he studied, just as MJ said himself he patterned his game after David Thompson and Dr.J

"I never asked Michael to do the things I asked of Kobe" - Phil Jackson 2001

[whoartthou]

the other 10 percent is allen iverson :lol .. That's why he shoots a low percentage..
:roll:

[whoartthou]

wrong again......especially in sports.

Kobe is a hybrid of all the greats he studied, just as MJ said himself he patterned his game after David Thompson and Dr.J

"I never asked Michael to do the things I asked of Kobe" - Phil Jackson 2001
your right.

Phil Jackson asking kobe: Stop ****ing chucking the ball

Never had to ask MJ that..

[NBASTATMAN]

finally i got some back up in here...


You were better off alone.. :lol

Kobe is a callous gunslinger " Phil Jackson





http://www.nba.com/games/20040613/LALDET/recap.html


One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."

[whoartthou]

You were better off alone.. :lol

Kobe is a callous gunslinger " Phil Jackson





http://www.nba.com/games/20040613/LALDET/recap.html


One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."

the perfect quote, that sums up kobe's career.

[NBASTATMAN]

wrong again......especially in sports.

Kobe is a hybrid of all the greats he studied, just as MJ said himself he patterned his game after David Thompson and Dr.J

"I never asked Michael to do the things I asked of Kobe" - Phil Jackson 2001

You do know that Kobe studied some of his dads game... :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

[/B]

the perfect quote, that sums up kobe's career.


Goodnight to all.. :sleeping

[whoartthou]

Goodnight to all.. :sleeping
"waiting for the youmad pictures"

[Replay32]

wrong again......especially in sports.

Kobe is a hybrid of all the greats he studied, just as MJ said himself he patterned his game after David Thompson and Dr.J

"I never asked Michael to do the things I asked of Kobe" - Phil Jackson 2001
:roll: :roll: :roll:

why are quoting that tired quote from 2001. Kobe wasn't the 1st option when he played with shaq. Jordan was. They had different roles.

Phil wanted kobe to be a playmaker. Basically get the ball to shaq and run the offense through him. Phil never asked Jordan to be a playmaker. He didn't have to. Jordan ran the offense and scored through the triangle. Jordan was also the 1st option with the bulls. MJ was more coachable than kobe. Kobe would always test phil and his teammates by going into ball hog mode. I give kobe credit, cuz he would do a lot better at consistently playing team ball in the playoffs. So yeah...

Phil was praising kobe, cuz kobe would go into chuck mode for no reason when they had shaq down low.

Phil had to tell kobe to be a play maker and constantly remind him to run the offense, get the ball inside and stop ball hogging.

I remember game 5 against philly in 2001. The game when Fisher hit like 6 threes. Phil had to bench kobe and was yelling at him. When kobe was younger and had shaq in his back pocket, phil would cuss kobe out quite a bit.

[whoartthou]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

why are quoting that tired quote from 2001. Kobe wasn't the 1st option when he played with shaq. Jordan was. They had different roles.

Phil wanted kobe to be a playmaker. Basically get the ball to shaq and run the offense through him. Phil never asked Jordan to be a playmaker. He didn't have to. Jordan ran the offense and scored through the triangle. Jordan was also the 1st option with the bulls. MJ was more coachable than kobe. Kobe would always test phil and his teammates by going into ball hog mode. I give kobe credit, cuz he would do a lot better at consistently playing team ball in the playoffs. So yeah...

Phil was praising kobe, cuz kobe would go into chuck mode for no reason when they had shaq down low.

Phil had to tell kobe to be a play maker and constantly remind him to run the offense, get the ball inside and stop ball hogging.

I remember game 5 against philly in 2001. The game when Fisher hit like 6 threes. Phil had to bench kobe and was yelling at him. When kobe was younger and had shaq in his back pocket, phil would cuss kobe out quite a bit.


i remember this too..

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Must be rough for Jordan fanboys that "sidekick" Kobe had the more impressive playoff game against an elite defense at the tender age of 22 than Jordan in his entire career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105130SAC.html

[whoartthou]

Must be rough for Jordan fanboys that "sidekick" Kobe had the more impressive playoff game against an elite defense at the tender age of 22 than Jordan in his entire career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105130SAC.html

christ.. is that you?!!

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

why are quoting that tired quote from 2001. Kobe wasn't the 1st option when he played with shaq. Jordan was. They had different roles.

Phil wanted kobe to be a playmaker. Basically get the ball to shaq and run the offense through him. Phil never asked Jordan to be a playmaker. He didn't have to. Jordan ran the offense and scored through the triangle. Jordan was also the 1st option with the bulls. MJ was more coachable than kobe. Kobe would always test phil and his teammates by going into ball hog mode. I give kobe credit, cuz he would do a lot better at consistently playing team ball in the playoffs. So yeah...

Phil was praising kobe, cuz kobe would go into chuck mode for no reason when they had shaq down low.

Phil had to tell kobe to be a play maker and constantly remind him to run the offense, get the ball inside and stop ball hogging.

I remember game 5 against philly in 2001. The game when Fisher hit like 6 threes. Phil had to bench kobe and was yelling at him. When kobe was younger and had shaq in his back pocket, phil would cuss kobe out quite a bit.


yes ....run the offense and take over in the 4th quarter.

Phil asked Kobe to faciltate the offense because he was a better overall player then Jordan.

Kobe still had a very similar role to MJ...If you watched the 90's Bull's MJ would let the game flow through other players and take over in the 4th.

very similar players in similar roles ....Kobe being the better all around player....

I've always said this....and Phil echoed.

[AlphaWolf24]

Must be rough for Jordan fanboys that "sidekick" Kobe had the more impressive playoff game against an elite defense at the tender age of 22 than Jordan in his entire career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105130SAC.html


Most know Kobe is going to be around for along long time, playing top shelf basketball for another 5 years.

They know by watching Kobe is on MJ's level...that's why there is threads every day battling who is better....

It's close...if it wasn't No one would talk about it 24/7


go make a MJ vs TMAC , VC , Wade or Lebron....and see how quickly no one cares:lol

[HighFlyer23]

yes ....run the offense and take over in the 4th quarter.

Phil asked Kobe to faciltate the offense because he was a better overall player then Jordan.

Kobe still had a very similar role to MJ...If you watched the 90's Bull's MJ would let the game flow through other players and take over in the 4th.

very similar players in similar roles ....Kobe being the better all around player....

I've always said this....and Phil echoed.

http://beliketike.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/michael-jordan-cigar.jpg

[Micku]

Must be rough for Jordan fanboys that "sidekick" Kobe had the more impressive playoff game against an elite defense at the tender age of 22 than Jordan in his entire career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105130SAC.html

Haha, that's a bit silly. Jordan faced against legendary teams in the 80s. Teams that are top 10 teams of all time. They were not only great offensively and defensively. Is it more going on a scoring tear on the Kings 00-01? Or going on a scoring tear against one of the best teams of all time and Larry Bird, being one of the best players of all time?

Plus, Kobe never put the performances that Jordan had against the weaker teams or the big teams.

Or are you saying that the Kings defense is better than the 85-86 Celts? Are you saying that it is more impressive to go on a scoring tear against the kings or the NBA champs?

[AlphaWolf24]

http://beliketike.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/michael-jordan-cigar.jpg
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2172000/AlphaWolf-2172764_860_800.jpg

[whoartthou]

Most know Kobe is going to be around for along long time, playing top shelf basketball for another 5 years.

They know by watching Kobe is on MJ's level...that's why there is threads every day battling who is better....

It's close...if it wasn't No one would talk about it 24/7


go make a MJ vs TMAC , VC , Wade or Lebron....and see how quickly no one cares:lol

lol. Dood you know why no one would post in MJ vs wade or lebron threads? Because fans of lebrons and wade are SANE (well some of them) and know that these guys are not on the level of a jordan. Hence why the threads die fast.

On the other hand, we have people like you and christ spewing bullshit in order to make kobe look better than he really is.. and the sane fans try to disprove you insane fiends.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Haha, that's a bit silly. Jordan faced against legendary teams in the 80s. Teams that are top 10 teams of all time. They were not only great offensively and defensively. Is it more going on a scoring tear on the Kings 00-01? Or going on a scoring tear against one of the best teams of all time and Larry Bird, being one of the best players of all time?

Plus, Kobe never put the performances that Jordan had against the weaker teams or the big teams.

Or are you saying that the Kings defense is better than the 85-86 Celts? Are you saying that it is more impressive to go on a scoring tear against the kings or the NBA champs?

Of course it was more difficult to score and score efficiently against the 01 Kings defense than 86 Celtics

Kings Defensive Rating 99.6
Celtics Defensive Rating 102.6

Its not even close.

:confusedshrug:

[whoartthou]

Haha, that's a bit silly. Jordan faced against legendary teams in the 80s. Teams that are top 10 teams of all time. They were not only great offensively and defensively. Is it more going on a scoring tear on the Kings 00-01? Or going on a scoring tear against one of the best teams of all time and Larry Bird, being one of the best players of all time?

Plus, Kobe never put the performances that Jordan had against the weaker teams or the big teams.

Or are you saying that the Kings defense is better than the 85-86 Celts? Are you saying that it is more impressive to go on a scoring tear against the kings or the NBA champs?

But, but, but, the kings would be back to back champs in the 80s, where defense was a foreign concept.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :facepalm

[HighFlyer23]

Seriously, who the hell has ever considered the 01 Kings a defensive juggernaut? If Kobe can perform so well against great defensive teams, then why was he pimp slapped by the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics? He also shoots a horrible % in game 7's historically

The numbers don't lie


NBA Finals averages for their careers:
Michael Jordan 33.6ppg 6.0reb 5.9ast 48.0%fg 36.8%3pt
Dwyane Wade 34.7ppg 7.8reb 3.8ast 46.7%fg 27.2%3pt
Kobe Bryant 25.3ppg 5.7reb 5.0ast 41.2%fg 31.3%3pt
Scottie Pippen 18.9ppg 8.3reb 5.9ast 40.9%fg 25.9%3pt
Shaq (as a Laker) 33.6ppg 14.1reb 3.0ast 2.4blk 60.2%fg
Kobe (with Shaq) 22.1ppg 5.2reb 4.6ast, 1.0blk 41.6%fg
Pau Gasol 17.3ppg 10.4reb 3.2ast 1.7blk 52.8%fg
LeBron: 22.0ppg 7.0reb 6.8ast 0.5blk 35.5%fg


Percentage of team's points scored in the NBA Finals
Kobe
2000: 14.5% (not even including the game he missed) (W)
2001: 24.4% (W)
2002: 25.2% (W)
2004: 27.6% (L)

Shaq
2000: 36.3% (W)
2001: 32.8% (W)
2002: 34.5% (W)
2004: 32.5% (L)

Michael Jordan
1991: 30.8% (W)
1992: 34.6% (W)
1993: 38.3% (W)
1996: 29.4% (W)
1997: 36.8% (W)
1998: 38.1% (W)

2000:
Shaq 38.0ppg 2.3apg 16.7 reb 61.1% shooting
Kobe 15.6ppg 4.2 apg 4.6 reb 36.7% shooting
2001:
Shaq 33.0ppg 15.8 rpg 4.4 apg 57.3% shooting
Kobe 24.6ppg 5.8 apg 7.8 reb 41.5% shooting
2002:
Shaq 36.3ppg 12.3 rpg 3.8 apg 59.5% shooting
Kobe 26.7ppg 5.2 apg 5.8 reb 51.4% shooting
2004:
Shaq 26.6ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 63.1% shooting
Kobe 22.6ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 reb 38% shooting

:confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

Haha, that's a bit silly. Jordan faced against legendary teams in the 80s. Teams that are top 10 teams of all time. They were not only great offensively and defensively. Is it more going on a scoring tear on the Kings 00-01? Or going on a scoring tear against one of the best teams of all time and Larry Bird, being one of the best players of all time?

Plus, Kobe never put the performances that Jordan had against the weaker teams or the big teams.

Or are you saying that the Kings defense is better than the 85-86 Celts? Are you saying that it is more impressive to go on a scoring tear against the kings or the NBA champs?

Jordan was swept every year he faced Boston...

so ask yourself...is scoring really better then Winning?

the great teams in the 80's beat the Bull's every year....Jordan at 32 years old only went to 3 NBA Finals.

Kobe at 32 has already been to 7...

winning>scoring a little more points

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan was swept every year he faced Boston...

so ask yourself...is scoring really better then Winning?

the great teams in the 80's beat the Bull's every year....Jordan at 32 years old only went to 3 NBA Finals.

Kobe at 32 has already been to 7...

winning>scoring a little more points

Jordan is a perfect 6 for 6 in the finals, that's 100% while Kobe is 5/7, 71%

Again Kobe's win % is LOWER than MJ's

Atleast MJ made it to the playoffs every year in Chicago, Kobe has missed making the post season before as the team leader.

[Micku]

Of course it was more difficult to score and score efficiently against the 01 Kings defense than 86 Celtics

Kings Defensive Rating 99.6
Celtics Defensive Rating 102.6

Its not even close.

:confusedshrug:

The Celts defense was the best in the league at that time. They had the same Defensive Rating of the Bobcats last year, which was 102.8, and that was the best in the league. Not to mention the pacing was higher and the shot selection much better in the 80s, which makes it difficult to guard.

And I think Jordan still holds the record of his Celts 1st round series, of scoring 63 points. Kobe wasn't able to score that many points facing a lesser defensive rating against the Suns, DRg of 105.8, in his prime in 05-06.

[whoartthou]

Seriously, who the hell has ever considered the 01 Kings a defensive juggernaut? If Kobe can perform so well against great defensive teams, then why was he pimp slapped by the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics? He also shoots a horrible % in game 7's historically

The numbers don't lie


NBA Finals averages for their careers:
Michael Jordan 33.6ppg 6.0reb 5.9ast 48.0%fg 36.8%3pt
Dwyane Wade 34.7ppg 7.8reb 3.8ast 46.7%fg 27.2%3pt
Kobe Bryant 25.3ppg 5.7reb 5.0ast 41.2%fg 31.3%3pt
Scottie Pippen 18.9ppg 8.3reb 5.9ast 40.9%fg 25.9%3pt
Shaq (as a Laker) 33.6ppg 14.1reb 3.0ast 2.4blk 60.2%fg
Kobe (with Shaq) 22.1ppg 5.2reb 4.6ast, 1.0blk 41.6%fg
Pau Gasol 17.3ppg 10.4reb 3.2ast 1.7blk 52.8%fg
LeBron: 22.0ppg 7.0reb 6.8ast 0.5blk 35.5%fg


Percentage of team's points scored in the NBA Finals
Kobe
2000: 14.5% (not even including the game he missed) (W)
2001: 24.4% (W)
2002: 25.2% (W)
2004: 27.6% (L)

Shaq
2000: 36.3% (W)
2001: 32.8% (W)
2002: 34.5% (W)
2004: 32.5% (L)

Michael Jordan
1991: 30.8% (W)
1992: 34.6% (W)
1993: 38.3% (W)
1996: 29.4% (W)
1997: 36.8% (W)
1998: 38.1% (W)

2000:
Shaq 38.0ppg 2.3apg 16.7 reb 61.1% shooting
Kobe 15.6ppg 4.2 apg 4.6 reb 36.7% shooting
2001:
Shaq 33.0ppg 15.8 rpg 4.4 apg 57.3% shooting
Kobe 24.6ppg 5.8 apg 7.8 reb 41.5% shooting
2002:
Shaq 36.3ppg 12.3 rpg 3.8 apg 59.5% shooting
Kobe 26.7ppg 5.2 apg 5.8 reb 51.4% shooting
2004:
Shaq 26.6ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 63.1% shooting
Kobe 22.6ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 reb 38% shooting

:confusedshrug:

Don't forget last years finals. Even though they won, kobe was shooting incredibly inefficiently.

[HighFlyer23]

Of course it was more difficult to score and score efficiently against the 01 Kings defense than 86 Celtics

Kings Defensive Rating 99.6
Celtics Defensive Rating 102.6

Its not even close.

:confusedshrug:


http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/itsbouttogetugly/73763ca3.jpg

[whoartthou]

Jordan was swept every year he faced Boston...

so ask yourself...is scoring really better then Winning?

the great teams in the 80's beat the Bull's every year....Jordan at 32 years old only went to 3 NBA Finals.

Kobe at 32 has already been to 7...

winning>scoring a little more points

And how many seasons did kobe play in the nba in the nba at 32 years of age vs jordan? :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Seriously, who the hell has ever considered the 01 Kings a defensive juggernaut? If Kobe can perform so well against great defensive teams, then why was he pimp slapped by the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics? He also shoots a horrible % in game 7's historically

The numbers don't lie


NBA Finals averages for their careers:
Michael Jordan 33.6ppg 6.0reb 5.9ast 48.0%fg 36.8%3pt
Dwyane Wade 34.7ppg 7.8reb 3.8ast 46.7%fg 27.2%3pt
Kobe Bryant 25.3ppg 5.7reb 5.0ast 41.2%fg 31.3%3pt
Scottie Pippen 18.9ppg 8.3reb 5.9ast 40.9%fg 25.9%3pt
Shaq (as a Laker) 33.6ppg 14.1reb 3.0ast 2.4blk 60.2%fg
Kobe (with Shaq) 22.1ppg 5.2reb 4.6ast, 1.0blk 41.6%fg
Pau Gasol 17.3ppg 10.4reb 3.2ast 1.7blk 52.8%fg
LeBron: 22.0ppg 7.0reb 6.8ast 0.5blk 35.5%fg


Percentage of team's points scored in the NBA Finals
Kobe
2000: 14.5% (not even including the game he missed) (W)
2001: 24.4% (W)
2002: 25.2% (W)
2004: 27.6% (L)

Shaq
2000: 36.3% (W)
2001: 32.8% (W)
2002: 34.5% (W)
2004: 32.5% (L)

Michael Jordan
1991: 30.8% (W)
1992: 34.6% (W)
1993: 38.3% (W)
1996: 29.4% (W)
1997: 36.8% (W)
1998: 38.1% (W)

2000:
Shaq 38.0ppg 2.3apg 16.7 reb 61.1% shooting
Kobe 15.6ppg 4.2 apg 4.6 reb 36.7% shooting
2001:
Shaq 33.0ppg 15.8 rpg 4.4 apg 57.3% shooting
Kobe 24.6ppg 5.8 apg 7.8 reb 41.5% shooting
2002:
Shaq 36.3ppg 12.3 rpg 3.8 apg 59.5% shooting
Kobe 26.7ppg 5.2 apg 5.8 reb 51.4% shooting
2004:
Shaq 26.6ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 63.1% shooting
Kobe 22.6ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 reb 38% shooting

:confusedshrug:

You are right. The numbers don't lie.

04 Pistons 95.4
08 Celtics 98.9
01 76ers 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

:confusedshrug:

[HighFlyer23]

Don't forget last years finals. Even though they won, kobe was shooting incredibly inefficiently.



Peformances in the Finals:
2010: Kobe Bryant... 97 missed shots, 66 made shots

2009: Kobe Bryant...107 missed shots, 58 made shots

2008: Kobe Bryant... 78 missed shots, 53 made shots

2007: LeBron James... 58 missed shots, 32 made shots

2006: Dwyane Wade... 74 missed shots, 65 made shots

2004: Kobe Bryant... 70 missed shots, 43 made shots
2004: Shaq O'Neal... 31 missed shots, 53 made shots

2002: Kobe Bryant... 34 missed shots, 36 made shots
2002: Shaq O'Neal... 34 missed shots, 50 made shots

2001: Kobe Bryant... 62 missed shots, 44 made shots
2001: Shaq O'Neal... 47 missed shots, 63 made shots

2000: Kobe Bryant... 57 missed shots, 33 made shots
2000: Shaq O'Neal... 61 missed shots, 96 made shots


.....


Kobe Bryant vs 2010 Celtics
28.6ppg 8.0reb 3.9ast 40.5%fg
(worst shooting % for a Finals MVP)


:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The Celts defense was the best in the league at that time. They had the same Defensive Rating of the Bobcats last year, which was 102.8, and that was the best in the league. Not to mention the pacing was higher and the shot selection much better in the 80s, which makes it difficult to guard.

And I think Jordan still holds the record of his Celts 1st round series, of scoring 63 points. Kobe wasn't able to score that many points facing a lesser defensive rating against the Suns, DRg of 105.8, in his prime in 05-06.

Exactly. The "best" of Jordan's peak was like the 22nd best that Kobe faced in the playoffs.

And if you are looking for "Jordanesque" numbers against weak playoff defense check Kobe's series vs the 2010 Suns.

If you are looking for what Jordan plays like when he actually had to face a legit defense for once check the 93 Knicks and 97 Heat series.

[whoartthou]

:eek:
Peformances in the Finals:
2010: Kobe Bryant... 97 missed shots, 66 made shots

2009: Kobe Bryant...107 missed shots, 58 made shots

2008: Kobe Bryant... 78 missed shots, 53 made shots

2007: LeBron James... 58 missed shots, 32 made shots

2006: Dwyane Wade... 74 missed shots, 65 made shots

2004: Kobe Bryant... 70 missed shots, 43 made shots
2004: Shaq O'Neal... 31 missed shots, 53 made shots

2002: Kobe Bryant... 34 missed shots, 36 made shots
2002: Shaq O'Neal... 34 missed shots, 50 made shots

2001: Kobe Bryant... 62 missed shots, 44 made shots
2001: Shaq O'Neal... 47 missed shots, 63 made shots

2000: Kobe Bryant... 57 missed shots, 33 made shots
2000: Shaq O'Neal... 61 missed shots, 96 made shots


.....


Kobe Bryant vs 2010 Celtics
28.6ppg 8.0reb 3.9ast 40.5%fg
(worst shooting % for a Finals MVP)


:confusedshrug:
:eek:

[Micku]

Jordan was swept every year he faced Boston...

so ask yourself...is scoring really better then Winning?

the great teams in the 80's beat the Bull's every year....Jordan at 32 years old only went to 3 NBA Finals.

Kobe at 32 has already been to 7...

winning>scoring a little more points

Of course winning matters more. Jordan Bulls pull some upsets later on in his career when he had a better team around him, and he begin to trust in his teammates more.

But Kobe at 32 been in the league much longer than Jordan been in the league. Kobe at 32 was in the league for 15 years. Jordan at 32 been in the league for 11 years. When Kobe was in the league for 11 seasons, like Jordan was:

Kobe had 3 championships. No MVPs. And two scoring titles.

As oppose to Jordan:

Jordan had 3/4 (if you count the entire 11 season) championships. Three MVPs. Three Final MVPs. 1 DPOY.

Jordan was able to do more in a less amount of time than Kobe. Also, Jordan was consider probably the GOAT at the age of 29/30. His ninth season. Kobe wasn't really a top 10 player until he won his fourth title, when he was 31, his 14th season.

Edit: I forgot to say that Jordan had eight scoring titles, and 3 time leader in steals by time his 11th season. Jordan was more impressive than Kobe.

Plus by time his 15th season, which Kobe is now, Jordan was 39/40 years old on the wiz. Jordan only played 13th seasons with the Bulls, and made more of a impact on the NBA than Kobe did on the Lakers. And to be accurate, Jordan probably played about 10 and half seasons. He was injured the entire season in 1985-86, and came back for 17 games in 1994-95 seasons.

Jordan time being in the NBA was far more impressive than Kobe, and he was far more successful, dominating records and titles. There's no contest.

[HighFlyer23]

You are right. The numbers don't lie.

04 Pistons 95.4
08 Celtics 98.9
01 76ers 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

:confusedshrug:

91 Lakers 105.0 (5th of 27)
97 Jazz 104.0 (9th of 29)
93 Suns 106.7 (9th of 27)

etc.

Top 10 defenses that Michael Jordan faced in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
43.7ppg 6.4reb 5.7ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 63pts & a 49pt game)

1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
45.2ppg 5.4reb 4.8ast 57%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts, 50pts, & a 44pt game)

1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
39.8ppg 5.8reb 8.2ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 50pts, & two 44pt games)

1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
35.67ppg 9.5reb 8.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & two 40pt games)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
29.75ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1991 L.A. Lakers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.2 points 11.4ast 6.6reb 56%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
31.28ppg 5.7reb 4.3ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1992 Portland Trailblazers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
35.8 ppg 4.8reb 6.5ast 53%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
31.00ppg 5.0reb 5.25ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 43pts)

1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
32.16ppg 6.2reb 7.0ast 40%fg
(High scoring game: 54 pts)
Jordan had a sprained right wrist in the '93 Conference Finals against the Knicks, which he suffered in game 2 against the Cavs.

1993 Phoenix Suns ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
41.00ppg 8.5 reb 6.3ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts)

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9031/rjqyo8.jpg

[whoartthou]

Of course winning matters more. Jordan Bulls pull some upsets later on in his career when he had a better team around him, and he begin to trust in his teammates more.

But Kobe at 32 been in the league much longer than Jordan been in the league. Kobe at 32 was in the league for 15 years. Jordan at 32 been in the league for 11 years. When Kobe was in the league for 11 seasons, like Jordan was:

Kobe had 3 championships. No MVPs. And two scoring titles.

As oppose to Jordan:

Jordan had 3/4 (if you count the entire 11 season) championships. Three MVPs. Three Final MVPs. 1 DPOY.

Jordan was able to do more in a less amount of time than Kobe. Also, Jordan was consider probably the GOAT at the age of 29/30. His ninth season. Kobe wasn't really a top 10 player until he won his fourth title, when he was 31, his 14th season.

Yep. If one wants to compare careers, it is best to use "Seasons" instead of "age"

[whoartthou]

Of course winning matters more. Jordan Bulls pull some upsets later on in his career when he had a better team around him, and he begin to trust in his teammates more.

But Kobe at 32 been in the league much longer than Jordan been in the league. Kobe at 32 was in the league for 15 years. Jordan at 32 been in the league for 11 years. When Kobe was in the league for 11 seasons, like Jordan was:

Kobe had 3 championships. No MVPs. And two scoring titles.

As oppose to Jordan:

Jordan had 3/4 (if you count the entire 11 season) championships. Three MVPs. Three Final MVPs. 1 DPOY.

Jordan was able to do more in a less amount of time than Kobe. Also, Jordan was consider probably the GOAT at the age of 29/30. His ninth season. Kobe wasn't really a top 10 player until he won his fourth title, when he was 31, his 14th season.

And as you showed, in 11 seasons, jordan had 3 FINAL MVPS, three mvps, 1 dpoy, how many scoring champions, and more. Kobe had 3 chips... as a second banana? :confusedshrug:

[whoartthou]

91 Lakers 105.0 (5th of 27)
97 Jazz 104.0 (9th of 29)
93 Suns 106.7 (9th of 27)

etc.

Top 10 defenses that Michael Jordan faced in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
43.7ppg 6.4reb 5.7ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 63pts & a 49pt game)

1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
45.2ppg 5.4reb 4.8ast 57%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts, 50pts, & a 44pt game)

1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
39.8ppg 5.8reb 8.2ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 50pts, & two 44pt games)

1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
35.67ppg 9.5reb 8.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & two 40pt games)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
29.75ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1991 L.A. Lakers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.2 points 11.4ast 6.6reb 56%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
31.28ppg 5.7reb 4.3ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1992 Portland Trailblazers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
35.8 ppg 4.8reb 6.5ast 53%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
31.00ppg 5.0reb 5.25ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 43pts)

1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
32.16ppg 6.2reb 7.0ast 40%fg
(High scoring game: 54 pts)
Jordan had a sprained right wrist in the '93 Conference Finals against the Knicks, which he suffered in game 2 against the Cavs.

1993 Phoenix Suns ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
41.00ppg 8.5 reb 6.3ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts)

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9031/rjqyo8.jpg

but, but, but, but... Mj had 5"4 white guys guarding him! :rolleyes:

[HighFlyer23]

but, but, but, but... Mj had 5"4 white guys guarding him! :rolleyes:


995-1,936fg 51.4%fg for Michael Jordan from Rookie year through age 31 against top 10 rated NBA defenses in the playoffs.
1,308-2,906fg 45.0%fg for Kobe Bryant from Rookie year through age 31 against top 10 rated NBA defenses in the playoffs.


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5442/michaeljordank.png

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why would I be mad that Jordan played in the equivalent to the steroid era of baseball?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
01 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

:confusedshrug:

[Micku]

Exactly. The "best" of Jordan's peak was like the 22nd best that Kobe faced in the playoffs.

And if you are looking for "Jordanesque" numbers against weak playoff defense check Kobe's series vs the 2010 Suns.

If you are looking for what Jordan plays like when he actually had to face a legit defense for once check the 93 Knicks and 97 Heat series.

Not at all. The defense and offense was different. Jordan did face against the one of the best defensive teams. You always hear that the bad boys Pistons and the Knicks were one of the best defensive teams of all time. And the Celts and Showtime Lakers were also one of the best.

Plus, even when Kobe facing against the Suns with not that much defense, it still wasn't as impressive as Jordan.

And the Knicks 93 and Heat of 97 showed how good their defense was with the Jordan rules. I'm not arguing that Jordan cannot have a bad series against great defense, I'm arguing the weird statements that you guys seem to have on Jordan in favor of Kobe.

[HighFlyer23]

Why would I be mad that Jordan played in the equivalent to the steroid era of baseball?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
01 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

:confusedshrug:


Riiiight so Kobe got shutdown by Paul Pierce, one of the greatest defenders of the era and was held to .415 FG% by 6'0" 165 lb Allen Iverson :roll: :roll:

And then shut down by Reggie Miller where he shot .367 FG% :lol :roll: :lol


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9031/rjqyo8.jpg

[Christofire]

Why would I be mad that Jordan played in the equivalent to the steroid era of baseball?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
01 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

:confusedshrug:

Yao it's pointless showing them this. I must be on crack for saying Kobe is better than michael Because MJ has higher FG%s and what have you, but when you show them stats to prove that MJ inferior defense they choose to ignore the numbers...

[HighFlyer23]

but, but, but, but... Mj had 5"4 white guys guarding him! :rolleyes:

Even though the average height for players and guards were virtually the same as it is today

But its blasphemy to speak up against Kobe the GOAT :hammerhead: :banghead:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not at all. The defense and offense was different. Jordan did face against the one of the best defensive teams. You always hear that the bad boys Pistons and the Knicks were one of the best defensive teams of all time. And the Celts and Showtime Lakers were also one of the best.

Plus, even when Kobe facing against the Suns with not that much defense, it still wasn't as impressive as Jordan.

And the Knicks 93 and Heat of 97 showed how good their defense was with the Jordan rules. I'm not arguing that Jordan cannot have a bad series against great defense, I'm arguing the weird statements that you guys seem to have on Jordan in favor of Kobe.

I agree with you that we hear a lot about the great defenses that Jordan faced. The sad truth is upon further inspection those defenses are not in the same ballpark of the 00 defenses. What do you want me to tell you? Check the stats yourself. I am making them up? Is there something inherently wrong with defensive rating that punishes Jordan unfairly?

[Christofire]

Not at all. The defense and offense was different. Jordan did face against the one of the best defensive teams. You always hear that the bad boys Pistons and the Knicks were one of the best defensive teams of all time. And the Celts and Showtime Lakers were also one of the best.

Plus, even when Kobe facing against the Suns with not that much defense, it still wasn't as impressive as Jordan.

And the Knicks 93 and Heat of 97 showed how good their defense was with the Jordan rules. I'm not arguing that Jordan cannot have a bad series against great defense, I'm arguing the weird statements that you guys seem to have on Jordan in favor of Kobe.

But numbers dont lie...the numbers clearly show you that Jordan faced inferior defensive teams. We can'y ignore the numbers because they dont lie, STATS are everything remeber

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yao it's pointless showing them this. I must be on crack for saying Kobe is better than michael Because MJ has higher FG%s and what have you, but when you show them stats to prove that MJ inferior defense they choose to ignore the numbers...

Nothing gets Jordan fans to start getting away from stats then posting defensive ratings. Its like their kryptonite. Suddenly stats don't matter. Suddenly you cant compare stats from different eras.
:oldlol:

[HighFlyer23]

Yao it's pointless showing them this. I must be on crack for saying Kobe is better than michael Because MJ has higher FG%s and what have you, but when you show them stats to prove that MJ inferior defense they choose to ignore the numbers...


http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3306/michaeljordantrophies.jpg

[97 bulls]

I agree with you that we hear a lot about the great defenses that Jordan faced. The sad truth is upon further inspection those defenses are not in the same ballpark of the 00 defenses. What do you want me to tell you? Check the stats yourself. I am making them up? Is there something inherently wrong with defensive rating that punishes Jordan unfairly?
Wow between you and christofire. Comparing stats across an era has no bearing. Maybe the offenses sucked during kobes era.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wow between you and christofire. Comparing stats across an era has no bearing. Maybe the offenses sucked during kobes era.

:lol

Tell that to HighFlyer23.

[whoartthou]

Riiiight so Kobe got shutdown by Paul Pierce, one of the greatest defenders of the era and was held to .415 FG% by 6'0" 165 lb Allen Iverson :roll: :roll:

And then shut down by Reggie Miller where he shot .367 FG% :lol :roll: :lol


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9031/rjqyo8.jpg

i remember a stan stating that 35 year old reggie was playing >> than prime reggie. :facepalm

[whoartthou]

Nothing gets Jordan fans to start getting away from stats then posting defensive ratings. Its like their kryptonite. Suddenly stats don't matter. Suddenly you cant compare stats from different eras.
:oldlol:

yep. And when it applies to kobe individual stats, they all of a sudden don't matter right? Because he takes so many 3s or so many jump shots. :rolleyes:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

yep. And when it applies to kobe individual stats, they all of a sudden don't matter right? Because he takes so many 3s or so many jump shots. :rolleyes:

Don't you know when Jordan retired for the 2nd time every player in the NBA suddenly forgot how to play on offense. Without the GOAT around they just started chucking the ball at the rim randomly without making any attempt to get quality shots. Thats why defensive ratings are so much lower.

[HighFlyer23]

i remember a stan stating that 35 year old reggie was playing >> than prime reggie. :facepalm


3/18/05 Pacers vs Lakers (Reggie Miller 39 pts, Kobe 12 pts)

reggie was 39 years old! :roll: :roll:

[97 bulls]

:lol

Tell that to HighFlyer23.
Why what did highflyer23 say?

[whoartthou]

3/18/05 Pacers vs Lakers (Reggie Miller 39 pts, Kobe 12 pts)

reggie was 39 years old! :roll: :roll:

39? :eek: :eek:

So i guess 39 year old reggie >> prime reggie, cuz he raped kobe?! :no: :no:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why what did highflyer23 say?

Started with comparing Finals numbers so I of course started comparing the defensive ratings of finals opponents. As I said before defensive ratings have no meaning unless somebody else is trying to make a comparison.

[Christofire]

Wow between you and christofire. Comparing stats across an era has no bearing. Maybe the offenses sucked during kobes era.

This has been my point the entire time!!!!!...... Please dont cross compare individual stats of players from eras with very different defensive rules. Defenses in 00s are better and the defensive ratings prove that. Ot's not Jordan's fault that he played in defensively inferior ERAs he took advantage of it as any great player should

[whoartthou]

This has been my point the entire time!!!!!...... Please dont cross compare individual stats of players from eras with very different defensive rules. Defenses in 00s are better and the defensive ratings prove that. Ot's not Jordan's fault that he played in defensively inferior ERAs he took advantage of it as any great player should

Dood. I seriously do not understand how any knowledgeable basketball fan can claim that kobe is > than Jordan as a basketball player. I just don't follow it.

Sure, i guess you can say that kobe is comparable to jordan, but > than him?
:no:

[HighFlyer23]

Don't you know when Jordan retired for the 2nd time every player in the NBA suddenly forgot how to play on offense. Without the GOAT around they just started chucking the ball at the rim randomly without making any attempt to get quality shots. Thats why defensive ratings are so much lower.

Honestly the style of the game did change. 3P shooting became more prominent

In Jordans prime of 91, 586 3 pointers were attempted and 187 were made for the league average

In Kobe's prime of 05-06, there were 1310 3PA and 470 3PM

Kobe took 518 threes just that year meaning he almost outshot the entire league average for 3PA for 90-91 by himself.

[whoartthou]

Honestly the style of the game did change. 3P shooting became more prominent

In Jordans prime of 91, 586 3 pointers were attempted and 187 were made for the league average

In Kobe's prime of 05-06, there were 1310 3PA and 470 3PM

Kobe took 518 threes just that year meaning he almost outshot the entire league average for 3PA for 90-91 by himself.

:eek: :eek: . And they say kobe is no chucker?

[Micku]

I agree with you that we hear a lot about the great defenses that Jordan faced. The sad truth is upon further inspection those defenses are not in the same ballpark of the 00 defenses. What do you want me to tell you? Check the stats yourself. I am making them up? Is there something inherently wrong with defensive rating that punishes Jordan unfairly?

There might be. The Defensive rating takes account on how little points is allowed per 100 possessions. This mean that you have to take account of the pacing, which is the number of possessions by a team.

Look at the 80s where there is average pacing is like in the 100s or high 90s rating in comparison to the early 00s or the late 90s, which had the pacing down to the low 90s.

This also potentially means that the more pacing average, the less defensive rating because that means there is more possessions. Which also means that it is inflated in each era. Which also means that the teams that you posted with their defensive rating won't have the same defensive rating in the 80s because they will be forced to play at the same pace. Same goes with the 80s teams.

This all means that DRtg could be just an inflated stat every year, and is good to only judge possibly who is the best defensively team that year alone, not of all time.

[HighFlyer23]

Started with comparing Finals numbers so I of course started comparing the defensive ratings of finals opponents. As I said before defensive ratings have no meaning unless somebody else is trying to make a comparison.


You're random listing of defensive rating without any context had no merit.

Why not post what teams ranked where amongst each other in the league instead of posting the numbers?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Honestly the style of the game did change. 3P shooting became more prominent

In Jordans prime of 91, 586 3 pointers were attempted and 187 were made for the league average

In Kobe's prime of 05-06, there were 1310 3PA and 470 3PM

Kobe took 518 threes just that year meaning he almost outshot the entire league average for 3PA for 90-91 by himself.

:facepalm

Check the average 3 pt FG% times that by 3 times it again by 100. Now using that number compare that to the defensive ratings I posted and ask yourself if it its reasonable to conclude that an increase in 3 pt shots accounts for the difference in defensive rating.

[HighFlyer23]

:facepalm

Check the average 3 pt FG% times that by 3 times it again by 100. Now using that number compare that to the defensive ratings I posted and ask yourself if it its reasonable to conclude that an increase in 3 pt shots accounts for the difference in defensive rating.

The league FG% dropped overall :confusedshrug:

Oh and BTW Kobe is still shooting under the league average for FG% :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're random listing of defensive rating without any context had no merit.

Why not post what teams ranked where amongst each other in the league instead of posting the numbers?

I'm going to exaggerate the point so maybe you will understand. Imagine two leagues. In one league every single team plays the Harlem Globetrotters and plays zero defense and in the other every team plays like 04 Pistons. Now imagine you scored 50 pts against the 10th best defensive team in both leagues. Which game would you consider more impressive?

[Christofire]

Don't you know when Jordan retired for the 2nd time every player in the NBA suddenly forgot how to play on offense. Without the GOAT around they just started chucking the ball at the rim randomly without making any attempt to get quality shots. Thats why defensive ratings are so much lower.


This one is my favorite. "Players were so much more fundamentally sound back then which is why they scored so much and shot such high FG%s despite the defense being so great."

Which never made sense to me because if that were true then how did a not so Fundamentally sound young michael score so much points with such a high FG%

then you get my second favorite response 'Michael Jordan was a superior athlete, he was unguardable"

then i replay "So LeBron james would have average 40 8-8"

then it goes back to the "No he wouldn't because he would not be as fundmentally sound as the the player were back then"

me- "But Jordan did it with sheer athleticism, why couldn't LeBron do it...he's bigger stronger and almost just as fast as Jordan if not faster, and he outweighed everyone who played in those days"

then they get offended "leBron james couldnt hold Jordan's Jock strap...those 215lb Centers would man handle leBron he wouldn't know what to do"

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Take your time and think it through HighFlyer23. If you get this one wrong I'm going to have to leave you with your ignorance and UMAD pictures.

[Micku]

Actually, the defensive rating is inflated and it doesn't count when comparing the best defensive teams in the NBA of all time. The math of the number of Possessions is:

FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA

Compare that to the 80s and early 90s, you'll find that their pacing and number of possessions is higher than the ones of the late 90s and the rest of the 00s. Which means that you cannot calculate the best defensive of all time by using Defensive rating, since each era is different. The only thing you can do with defensively rating is establish who is the best in the league at that time.

[whoartthou]

This one is my favorite. "Players were so much more fundamentally sound back then which is why they scored so much and shot such high FG%s despite the defense being so great."

Which never made sense to me because if that were true then how did a not so Fundamentally sound young michael score so much points with such a high FG%

then you get my second favorite response 'Michael Jordan was a superior athlete, he was unguardable"

then i replay "So LeBron james would have average 40 8-8"

then it goes back to the "No he wouldn't because he would not be as fundmentally sound as the the player were back then"

me- "But Jordan did it with sheer athleticism, why couldn't LeBron do it...he's bigger stronger and almost just as fast as Jordan if not faster, and he outweighed everyone who played in those days"

then they get offended "leBron james couldnt hold Jordan's Jock strap...those 215lb Centers would man handle leBron he wouldn't know what to do"

Who knows how lebron would perform. MJ for example in the late 1980s took severe beatings from the pistons and still averaged great numbers. Lebron was easily outspirited by the celtics in the last playoffs.. :confusedshrug:

[Christofire]

There might be. The Defensive rating takes account on how little points is allowed per 100 possessions. This mean that you have to take account of the pacing, which is the number of possessions by a team.

Look at the 80s where there is average pacing is like in the 100s or high 90s rating in comparison to the early 00s or the late 90s, which had the pacing down to the low 90s.

This also potentially means that the more pacing average, the less defensive rating because that means there is more possessions. Which also means that it is inflated in each era. Which also means that the teams that you posted with their defensive rating won't have the same defensive rating in the 80s because they will be forced to play at the same pace. Same goes with the 80s teams.

This all means that DRtg could be just an inflated stat every year, and is good to only judge possibly who is the best defensively team that year alone, not of all time.

Why was the PACE high?...

[HighFlyer23]

I'm going to exaggerate the point so maybe you will understand. Imagine two leagues. In one league every single team plays the Harlem Globetrotters and plays zero defense and in the other every team plays like 04 Pistons. Now imagine you scored 50 pts against the 10th best defensive team in both leagues. Which game would you consider more impressive?

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Tex Winter said: "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6hvR6fPq-uw/S3nLwCNS4GI/AAAAAAAABnQ/LoHM5G_ApbE/s320/the-shrug.jpg

[whoartthou]

This one is my favorite. "Players were so much more fundamentally sound back then which is why they scored so much and shot such high FG%s despite the defense being so great."

Which never made sense to me because if that were true then how did a not so Fundamentally sound young michael score so much points with such a high FG%

then you get my second favorite response 'Michael Jordan was a superior athlete, he was unguardable"

then i replay "So LeBron james would have average 40 8-8"

then it goes back to the "No he wouldn't because he would not be as fundmentally sound as the the player were back then"

me- "But Jordan did it with sheer athleticism, why couldn't LeBron do it...he's bigger stronger and almost just as fast as Jordan if not faster, and he outweighed everyone who played in those days"

then they get offended "leBron james couldnt hold Jordan's Jock strap...those 215lb Centers would man handle leBron he wouldn't know what to do"

but yea, lebron could have been a beast in the era jordan played in as well.

[Micku]

Why was the PACE high?...
The pace was high because the game was faster back then. Teams set up their plays faster and took more shots around the close/mid range.

[Christofire]

Who knows how lebron would perform. MJ for example in the late 1980s took severe beatings from the pistons and still averaged great numbers. Lebron was easily outspirited by the celtics in the last playoffs.. :confusedshrug:

LOL at James being out spirited by 215lb Centers.....

James should by one of those hot tub time machines and go Back to the 80s...I'd have so much fun watch those skinny arse players back then Bounce off of leBrons body like bullets off of superman

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Actually, the defensive rating is inflated and it doesn't count when comparing the best defensive teams in the NBA of all time. The math of the number of Possessions is:

FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA

Compare that to the 80s and early 90s, you'll find that their pacing and number of possessions is higher than the ones of the late 90s and the rest of the 00s. Which means that you cannot calculate the best defensive of all time by using Defensive rating, since each era is different. The only thing you can do with defensively rating is establish who is the best in the league at that time.
:facepalm

[Christofire]

The pace was high because the game was faster back then. Teams set up their plays faster and took more shots around the close/mid range.

surely if the defense was so good they could've slowed them down?

[whoartthou]

LOL at James being out spirited by 215lb Centers.....

James should by one of those hot tub time machines and go Back to the 80s...I'd have so much fun watch those skinny arse players back then Bounce off of leBrons body like bullets off of superman

So garnett is 215 lbs? Only perkins is the big guy...

[HighFlyer23]

Take your time and think it through HighFlyer23. If you get this one wrong I'm going to have to leave you with your ignorance and UMAD pictures.


:roll:

Think about it, the rule book literally says don't impede the offensive players momentum towards the basket. There is no hand checking and the 3 second rules opens the game to driving.

[HighFlyer23]

So garnett is 215 lbs? Only perkins is the big guy...


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/73/He_Mad.jpg

[Christofire]

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Tex Winter said: "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6hvR6fPq-uw/S3nLwCNS4GI/AAAAAAAABnQ/LoHM5G_ApbE/s320/the-shrug.jpg

This article would mean something If the players were asked how they felt about zone defense being made illegal once again

[Christofire]

So garnett is 215 lbs? Only perkins is the big guy...


Garnet weighs 253 lbs....what are you talking about?

[HighFlyer23]

Garnet weighs 253 lbs....what are you talking about?


http://www.bostoncelticsreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kevin-garnett-screaming.jpg

253 lbs?!? :lol :lol

The Jordan era actually had GREAT centers. Hakeem, young Shaq, DRob, Ewing, Zo etc. All who were over 215 lbs btw :rolleyes:

[Christofire]

zone + no hand-check > hand-check + illegal defense


zone is by far more of an effective defensive tool for stopping perimeter players than handchecking

[Micku]

surely if the defense was so good they could've slowed them down?

No. That wasn't the case because they used to run up the court and set their plays very fast to shoot.


:facepalm

There's no need for a facepalm. It's math. Look:



for players and teams it is points allowed per 100 posessions.


- http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#def_rtg



Possessions
We can estimate possessions very well from box score stats by using this formula.

FGA-OR+TO+0.475xFTA

For each team, possessions are counted for the team and their opponents, and then averaged.

Efficiency gives us broad view of how well the offense or defense functions, but we can break efficiency into what Dean Oliver dubbed the Four Factors. Shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and free throws provide the basic components of efficiency.


- http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/stats_explained/


And check out the 80s in comparison to the 2004.

The average FGA in 2004 was 6545. The average FGA in 1988 was 7268. That's a 600+ shot difference. Also, look at the pacing:

2004: the average pacing was 90.1.

1988: the average pacing was 99.6.

Not to mention the shot selection was better, which makes it harder to defend.

And since you have to divide every possession by 100 in order for defensive rating to be effective, this makes that every year it is inflated to that specific year. Which makes defensive rating invalid to compare of all time.

[Christofire]

http://www.bostoncelticsreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kevin-garnett-screaming.jpg

253 lbs?!? :lol :lol

The Jordan era actually had GREAT centers. Hakeem, young Shaq, DRob, Ewing, Zo etc. All who were over 215 lbs btw :rolleyes:


notice i said in the 80s.....but since you want entertainment....even ewing weighed less than Garnett...ewing was 240 lbs when he played...thats less than Pau gasol who is 250 lbs

[whoartthou]

notice i said in the 80s.....but since you want entertainment....even ewing weighed less than Garnett...ewing was 240 lbs when he played...thats less than Pau gasol who is 250 lbs

this guy. :facepalm

So now you are basing you argument on how much someone weighs? :lol

[Christofire]

No. That wasn't the case because they used to run up the court and set their plays very fast to shoot.



There's no need for a facepalm. It's math. Look:



- http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#def_rtg



- http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/stats_explained/


And check out the 80s in comparison to the 2004.

The average FGA in 2004 was 6545. The average FGA in 1988 was 7268. That's a 600+ shot difference. Also, look at the pacing:

2004: the average pacing was 90.1.

1988: the average pacing was 99.6.

Not to mention the shot selection was better, which makes it harder to defend.

And since you have to divide every possession by 100 in order for defensive rating to be effective, this makes that every year it is inflated to that specific year. Which makes defensive rating invalid to compare of all time.

so the defense was so bad that they couldnt stop the run and gun and bsaically the team with the bette offensive players won because they would miss less shot?.....essentially offense was the defense. i get it now...The defense indeed greater back then. it makes perfect sense to me now how defense can be better despite teams scoring so much points and shooting such high percentages

[Micku]

So if you are trying to say that a team in 2004 is better defensively than the best defensively team in 1986 by using defensively rating, it's not an accurate thing to say because there were more possesions. So Yao Ming's Foot been using the defensive rating wrong. You shouldn't even compare it for different years, not to mention eras.

[Christofire]

this guy. :facepalm

So now you are basing you argument on how much someone weighs? :lol

just wait til i get to the puny and short arse guards jordan abused

[Christofire]

So if you are trying to say that a team in 2004 is better defensively than the best defensively team in 1986 by using defensively rating, it's not an accurate thing to say because there were more possesions. So Yao Ming's Foot been using the defensive rating wrong. You shouldn't even compare it for different years, not to mention eras.

best team defensively based on those inferior stadards of defense. Theirdefense was so good they allowed 60+ points by one man....Great D, one with no fundamentals at that,,,,


"but jordan was athletically superior"

[HighFlyer23]

notice i said in the 80s.....but since you want entertainment....even ewing weighed less than Garnett...ewing was 240 lbs when he played...thats less than Pau gasol who is 250 lbs

:roll: :roll: :roll:

This dude honestly believes Garnett is any where NEAR 250 lbs and that Gasol and him weigh more than Ewing did :roll: :roll:

And then the zone argument begins, restarting the whole cycle that Kobe homers should've learned that they fail at :facepalm

[Micku]

so the defense was so bad that they couldnt stop the run and gun and bsaically the team with the bette offensive players won because they would miss less shot?.....essentially offense was the defense. i get it now...The defense indeed greater back then. it makes perfect sense to me now how defense can be better despite teams scoring so much points and shooting such high percentages

No. Have you seen the what they used to do in the 80s or early 90s? They used to run down the court, always to try to get an open shot. Even if the other team had half court defense, they used to back them down extremely quickly.

And then they used to do plays a lot quicker, and get a shot up.

In today's game, they take their time to shoot. And also, in today's game, they sometimes use the full 24 second clock, and they would set up for a 3. They didn't used to do that back then. It was a totally different style.

---

But the rotation of defense is better in the 00s IMO.

[Christofire]

So if you are trying to say that a team in 2004 is better defensively than the best defensively team in 1986 by using defensively rating, it's not an accurate thing to say because there were more possesions. So Yao Ming's Foot been using the defensive rating wrong. You shouldn't even compare it for different years, not to mention eras.


Is their any stat that we can use that doesnt have to be manipulated to favor Jordan?.....first we adjust the pace to make the inferior deensive era he played in look good.. what next are we going to adjust the heights of the short arse guards he played against?

[Micku]

best team defensively based on those inferior stadards of defense. Theirdefense was so good they allowed 60+ points by one man....Great D, one with no fundamentals at that,,,,


"but jordan was athletically superior"

That's silly. Shaq used to destroy his opponents, and score high 30 sometimes high 40 points. LeBron displayed a legendary performance against the Pistons. Wade killed the Celts last year. What's so hard about believing that Jordan did something similar against one of the best defensive teams at that time?

It seems like you have a hard time grasping it.

[Christofire]

No. Have you seen the what they used to do in the 80s or early 90s? They used to run down the court, always to try to get an open shot. Even if the other team had half court defense, they used to back them down extremely quickly.

And then they used to do plays a lot quicker, and get a shot up.

In today's game, they take their time to shoot. And also, in today's game, they sometimes use the full 24 second clock, and they would set up for a 3. They didn't used to do that back then. It was a totally different style.

---

But the rotation of defense is better in the 00s IMO.

Back them down extremely quickly?.....if the defense was bad enough to allow then so be it. do you think that that tactic could work today and increase scoring to what it was with the defensive riles we have in place now?

[Micku]

Is their any stat that we can use that doesnt have to be manipulated to favor Jordan?.....first we adjust the pace to make the inferior deensive era he played in look good.. what next are we going to adjust the heights of the short arse guards he played against?

It seems like you are just hating now.

There are things that the 00s do better. Your average 00 is a better shooter. Your average 00 contest better sometimes. Your average 00 could be more athletic.

But Jordan was one of the best. What's so hard about accepting that? A lot of people say Jordan is one of the best. I didn't think he was until I researched all of this. But Jordan is not universally the best. You can say Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. Some people think Magic or Bird are GOAT. Just post your arguments.

I personally don't think there is a GOAT. There were great players in their prime who had their runs. Jordan run was just more successful than most, that's all.

[Christofire]

That's silly. Shaq used to destroy his opponents, and score high 30 sometimes high 40 points. LeBron displayed a legendary performance against the Pistons. Wade killed the Celts last year. What's so hard about believing that Jordan did something similar against one of the best defensive teams at that time?

It seems like you have a hard time grasping it.

My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.


Also i apologize for the last few post i made i was intentionally being ignorant and nonsensical in my responses to your posts. My point over the years however has always been that it's pointless comparing the numbers of 2 players in 2 different ERAS that started their career on 2 opposite ends of the spectrum

[Christofire]

never said Jordan wasnt one of the best...I think he's second Behind Kobe..and as much as i hate Lebron i think he ends better than the both of them

[Micku]

Back them down extremely quickly?.....if the defense was bad enough to allow then so be it. do you think that that tactic could work today and increase scoring to what it was with the defensive riles we have in place now?

Hahah. You can't even touch the guy now. They have free roam over the perimeter.

But let me find you some clips:

This is by bballbreakdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARHtF4Letw

Notice that the Coach Nick say that play differently and everybody could play back to the basket, unlike today. They all had great footwork. The game was different back then.


Do you see how they used to run down the court: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkhZlX4eZRE&feature=related#t=02m24s

They also set up their offense A LOT quicker. I need to find one where they put full court pressure so you can see their footwork, but I think the bballbreakdown one has an example of one.

[Micku]

My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.


I disagree about the league is more competitive, but you are entitled to your opinion.

But don't get me wrong. The defense changes every single decade. The 70s and below probably had the most physical defense. The 80s had physical, but not as much. They also wasn't used to the 3 pt shot, so they didn't guard it as much.

The early 90s had a mixture of everything, but the rotation was a bit off. You'll see teams get called for illegal defense a lot. They also cut off a bit of hand checking.

The 00s made it harder for centers to work down low. The early 00s had zone and a bit of hand check.

10s made things easier for the perimeter players to drive, and harder for the centers to work. It encourages playing great team defense, but nothing too physical.

[Christofire]

I disagree about the league is more competitive, but you are entitled to your opinion.

But don't get me wrong. The defense changes every single decade. The 70s and below probably had the most physical defense. The 80s had physical, but not as much. They also wasn't used to the 3 pt shot, so they didn't guard it as much.

The early 90s had a mixture of everything, but the rotation was a bit off. You'll see teams get called for illegal defense a lot. They also cut off a bit of hand checking.

The 00s made it harder for centers to work down low. The early 00s had zone and a bit of hand check.

10s made things easier for the perimeter players to drive, and harder for the centers to work. It encourages playing great team defense, but nothing too physical.


i would'nt say it's easier drive,a better choice of words would be easier to get by the primary defender, but you meet more on your way to the rim, where when there were no zones the hadn check made it tougher to get by the first guy but once you got by him there were less people in your way. So it was kinda of a trade off. The intial defender has a tougher task defensively but he has more back up if he fails, back in the handcheck era the intial defender had an easier job of defending but he had less back up and in some cases no back up because guys had to stay with their assignment which is why ISO were so prevalent.

Players today have to make far more moves on the way to the rim than you had in the illegal defense era. a perfect example of that would be...the dwyane dunk the other night. he had to cross his man over, spin by the zoning help defender and dunk on the center waiting under the rim for him

[Bogus_Sting]

I don't know how many F#cking times we gotta go through this, but lets start from the start. Jordan is better and always wil be because Kobe will never do this:

http://originaldc.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/8182uncfinalsgeorgetown17seclastsho.jpg

http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/00/00/00/03/343_jordancuttingnetshm0_big.jpg

So leave it, its done. Over, enough.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No. That wasn't the case because they used to run up the court and set their plays very fast to shoot.



There's no need for a facepalm. It's math. Look:



- http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#def_rtg



- http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/stats_explained/


And check out the 80s in comparison to the 2004.

The average FGA in 2004 was 6545. The average FGA in 1988 was 7268. That's a 600+ shot difference. Also, look at the pacing:

2004: the average pacing was 90.1.

1988: the average pacing was 99.6.

Not to mention the shot selection was better, which makes it harder to defend.

And since you have to divide every possession by 100 in order for defensive rating to be effective, this makes that every year it is inflated to that specific year. Which makes defensive rating invalid to compare of all time.

You don't do this. You divide points allowed by the number of possessions used by the offense you defended against (this number changes and is different for every team and year) and times that by 100 to represent 100 possessions.

[Micku]

You don't do this. You divide points allowed by the number of possessions used by the offense you defended against (this number changes and is different for every team and year) and times that by 100 to represent 100 possessions.

Yeah, I got confused by the "per 100". I thought when you say that, you are suppose to divide it by 100. You usually like Points per game. You have 100 points in 3 games, so you are suppose to do the formula like: 100/3. I read it wrong. Heh.

[Nastradamus]

Great article from a terrible source. Like it or not, what they put out there about Kobe and the Lakers is true.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.


Also i apologize for the last few post i made i was intentionally being ignorant and nonsensical in my responses to your posts. My point over the years however has always been that it's pointless comparing the numbers of 2 players in 2 different ERAS that started their career on 2 opposite ends of the spectrum
Really? Jordan actually was slightly bigger, had larger hands, and a better vertical leap. Slight Edge to Jordan in terms of athletic ability. Fundamental Skills, Idk. Close for sure.