Penny Hardaway talks handchecking & Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan

[Round Mound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4_LXYUNtY&feature=feedf

:applause:

[StarJordan]

funny thing is this was the guy who nike tried to make the next jordan in late 90s

[97 bulls]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4_LXYUNtY&feature=feedf

:applause:
I only disagree with him feeling his ppg totals would shoot up 6-8 points. Maybe 4-5. But he was spot on with everything else

[juju151111]

Well penny lying. You know why because Gilbert arenas is superior. I mean look at his statsin 06 he clearly a superior player. :facepalm I really don't show people who actually play any kind of basketball that having someone ride u to the basket doesn't affect you. You can't touch people know and people chuck more 3s. How could a 6'4 Wade dominate but Mj can't with these tick tac fouls.

[jstern]

Well penny lying. You know why because Gilbert arenas is superior. I mean look at his statsin 06 he clearly a superior player. :facepalm I really don't show people who actually play any kind of basketball that having someone ride u to the basket doesn't affect you. You can't touch people know and people chuck more 3s. How could a 6'4 Wade dominate but Mj can't with these tick tac fouls.
It definitely makes it harder, and for a much better game, if you're playing against someone that hand checks. It forces me to play harder and to become more creative as to how I'm going to score. So I always say, it there was hand checking today, players like Kobe would technically be better than their versions today, even if they score a couple of points less.

[tpols]

It definitely makes it harder, and for a much better game, if you're playing against someone that hand checks. It forces me to play harder and to become more creative as to how I'm going to score. So I always say, it there was hand checking today, players like Kobe would technically be better than their versions today, even if they score a couple of points less.
But the handchecking era didn't end when kobe was playing. Kobe played in an era that allowed for zone defense(and therefore harder doubles~more effective team defense to contain any given player) AND they could still impede a player's progress to the rim with handchecking. This era was from the late 90s to 04.. the era kobe made his name in and was a key cog for three championship teams. Kobe has already proven he could dominate even with handcheking in place.. check his 30/7/6 '01 playoff statline.

[rodman91]

Penny is officially new magnet for AlphaDog24,Ne1,Griffmoney or other homers attackings.

[crisoner]

I love how comments need to be approved on this vid...and all you see is biased Chicago homerizms. lol

[rodman91]

I love how comments need to be approved on this vid...and all you see is biased Chicago homerizms. lol

Well, GOAT played for us... it's not our fault. :oldlol:

[crisoner]

I do think Jordan of course is was a better overall player then Kobe...but the whole hand checking argument kind of takes itself out. Jordan also benefited from hand checking when he was on defense. But with or without that rule Jordan and Kobe would still dominant in any era.

[crisoner]

Well, GOAT played for us... it's not our fault. :oldlol:

Wilt played for the Sixers, Warriors and Lakers.

[rodman91]

Wilt played for the Sixers, Warriors and Lakers.
http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/gif/mrtlol.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

Well, GOAT played for us... it's not our fault. :oldlol:


you a Laker fan ??..why you got worm in your avy???



avy bet?....

[Ne 1]

I love how comments need to be approved on this vid...and all you see is biased Chicago homerizms. lol

It's BruceBlitz, what do you expect? :oldlol:

He only approves comments that he agrees with, and blocks anyone who doesn't agree with anything his view points.

[crisoner]

Well, GOAT played for us... it's not our fault. :oldlol:

Kareem played for the Bucks and Lakers.

[rodman91]

you a Laker fan ??..why you got worm in your avy???



avy bet?....
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5619/reverseevolution.png

[rodman91]

Kareem played for the Bucks and Lakers.
http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/jack_lol.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

"Kobe's in his era is head's above the rest"
-Pretty Penny 2011


:applause:


"Even if Kobe played in the "handchecking era" he could still be the same Kobe Bryant" - Pretty Penny 2011

:applause: :applause:


"Michael Jordan is still better..because Kobe wanted to be like him" - Pretty Penny 2011

:no:


"If I played in todays era I would average 8 more points" - Pretty Penny 2011
http://images.picturesdepot.com/photo/j/jack_nicholson_laughing-6698.jpg

[necya]

this is already trolling there...

if Penny hadn't have those 4 knee surgeries, there would be another guard that kobe stans would hate on for sure.

[crisoner]

Well, GOAT played for us... it's not our fault. :oldlol:

Bill Russel played for the Celtics

[crisoner]

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5619/reverseevolution.png


lol

Good one...

[macpierce]

bruce blitz at it again, I sworn this troll would of committed suicide when kobe got his 4th

[Fatal9]

"I probably would average 6-8 more points"

:roll:

[get these NETS]

at his peak Penny had no flaws to his game

[dynasty1978]

Whoever says hand-checking in the 2000s is dead obviously aren't watching the games. Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Raja Bell, Shane B, Brewer, etc.,.....you're gonna tell me that it's pure footspeed that allows them to defend? Please, handchecking is alive and well.

Now body checks and excessive contact is a different story, that was the trademark of 90s ball....doesn't mean that defenses were better. The caliber of D played by Larry Brown's Pistons and Doc's Celts is on par or greater than the Knicks, Pistons, and Heat defenses of the 90s.

[LAClipsFan33]

"I probably would average 6-8 more points"

:roll:

So you don't think Penny could average between 28 and 30 ppg in this league as a 1st option ?

:confusedshrug:

[jstern]

"I probably would average 6-8 more points"

:roll:

For his particular game and style he meant, which he described, not necessarily for every guard.

Anyway, he did play until 2008, so he's part of both eras. Too bad he had all those injuries. He used to be such a big name, and then, like dead.

[DatDudeD]

hahahahaha.... Bruce "DRAMA QUEEN" Blitz.

[eliteballer]

Penny played in the mid-late 90's, NOT the 80's or early 90's.

You guys trying to tell me Chris Mullin can average 26-27 PPG on 50-54% shooting and Kobe can't? LOL.

[jstern]

Penny played in the mid-late 90's, NOT the 80's or early 90's.

You guys trying to tell me Chris Mullin can average 26-27 PPG on 50-54% shooting and Kobe can't? LOL.

Mullin was a great player. Penny entered the league in 93, and he clearly said for his style of game he would averaged that much more, which is different from Mullin's game. Then he went into detail why he feels that he in particular, (not everyone else) that he would average that much more.

Seriously, most people have comprehension problem, and that's a big problem the fact that most of humanity is like that. One person says one thing, the other understands another, and that creates miscommunication, which creates misunderstandings, and arguments, and fights, wars, etc.

Let me guess, you're putting down Mullin because he's white.

Imagine people like you in 10 years dismissing this era because of Gasol, Manu, Nash.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

you a Laker fan ??..why you got worm in your avy???



avy bet?....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hGJ3GhPGwJY/SwL2Zqxt_9I/AAAAAAAABoI/y3GtYlqIVqI/s1600/9.jpg

[eliteballer]

Peny's rookie season was 93-94, and he didnt Prime until the following 95 season. Nice try though, attempting to skew it so it seemed he played in the early 90's.

Also :lol @ you trying to turn the Mullin point into a
"white" issue. Talk about grasping at thin air. It's so pathetic it's funny.

[Nastradamus]

It definitely makes it harder, and for a much better game, if you're playing against someone that hand checks. It forces me to play harder and to become more creative as to how I'm going to score. So I always say, it there was hand checking today, players like Kobe would technically be better than their versions today, even if they score a couple of points less.

Also the level of athleticism, team defense and defensive intensity are unparalled in today's game

[OldSchoolBBall]

Penny played in the mid-late 90's, NOT the 80's or early 90's.

You guys trying to tell me Chris Mullin can average 26-27 PPG on 50-54% shooting and Kobe can't? LOL.

Yeah, actually I am. Mullin was a much better shooter and, more importantly, much smarter player than Kobe. Kobe is the type of player who would average 47-50% shooting in that era regardless of whether he was averaging 25 ppg or 30 ppg, just like how he shoots 44-46% in this era regardless of volume. He's just a dumb player, is all.

[jstern]

Peny's rookie season was 93-94, and he didnt Prime until the following 95 season. Nice try though, attempting to skew it so it seemed he played in the early 90's.

Also :lol @ you trying to turn the Mullin point into a
"white" issue. Talk about grasping at thin air. It's so pathetic it's funny.

I clearly stated that he came into the league in 93, compared to you who clearly knew he came in in 93, yet to make sound as if he came in much later you wrote that he came in the mid to late 90s. Not only that, but then you respond by saying he came into the league 93-94, with the 94 bolded, almost trying to make the 93 invisible.

And yes, I do believe it's a white issue you have with Mullin. I guarantee you that if he was a black player, you would have not brought him up in a dismissive tone to bring down that era.

And yes, I find it funny that in 10 years or so there are going to be teenagers using Nash, Gasol, and Manu to bring down this era, even though they are ignorant of their games.

Edit: Again, reading comprehension so low. I mean, I write that Penny came into the league in 93, and you respond by saying that I'm trying to make it seem as if he came in earlier than that.

[eliteballer]

Penny played maybe 2 MONTHS of his entire career in the 93, it is IRRELEVANT because Penny mentioned his PRIME which occured in 95 on.

You have NO basis for saying Mullin was brought up because he was white, he was brought up because he put up great numbers when he was a far far, FAR inferior player to Kobe.

Oh let me guess, you're trying to turn it into a race issue because you have NO viable counterargument based on the BASKETBALL facts.

Keep talking out of your a$$ though, but what should I expect from someone who has a Bird avatar based on youtube clips.

[Big#50]

Whoever says hand-checking in the 2000s is dead obviously aren't watching the games. Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Raja Bell, Shane B, Brewer, etc.,.....you're gonna tell me that it's pure footspeed that allows them to defend? Please, handchecking is alive and well.

Now body checks and excessive contact is a different story, that was the trademark of 90s ball....doesn't mean that defenses were better. The caliber of D played by Larry Brown's Pistons and Doc's Celts is on par or greater than the Knicks, Pistons, and Heat defenses of the 90s.
Bowen played d with his arms on his side. What that guy did in this era is ****ing amazing. Prime Bowen would have caused madness in the past. Imagine Bowen guarding Kobe with the rules of old. No way Kobe shoots over 35% against him.

[get these NETS]

Mullin just made the HOF, so his name is heard and read more now than since he retired.

I bet Rodman's name comes up a lot more this week than anytime since he retired also.

[Big#50]

Penny played in the mid-late 90's, NOT the 80's or early 90's.

You guys trying to tell me Chris Mullin can average 26-27 PPG on 50-54% shooting and Kobe can't? LOL.
I have a feeling all of these Kobestans are one ****ing dude with a hundred accounts. ****!
No need to disrespect one of the greatest shooters of all time to bring up Kobe. Mullin has been sick since HS. Sick, sick shot.

[jstern]

Penny played maybe 2 MONTHS of his entire career in the 93, it is IRRELEVANT because Penny mentioned his PRIME which occured in 95 on.

You have NO basis for saying Mullin was brought up because he was white, he was brought up because he put up great numbers when he was a far far, FAR inferior player to Kobe.

Oh let me guess, you're trying to turn it into a race issue because you have NO viable counterargument based on the BASKETBALL facts.

Keep talking out of your a$$ though, but what should I expect from someone who has a Bird avatar based on youtube clips.

Hahah, you lose. Trying so hard not to count his early years, from making it seem as if he came into the league in the mid to late 90s, and then changing it saying that you're talking about his prime. Why not mention prime from the beginning then? Why bold the 94? And yes, the race issue is an issue that Kobe trolls constantly use, and I'm willing to bet that's why you brought him up in such a dismissive tone, as if he was some mediocre player. Don't know what you meant about youtube clips.

Have to go, but will be back at 8.

[tpols]

Bowen played d with his arms on his side. What that guy did in this era is ****ing amazing. Prime Bowen would have caused madness in the past. Imagine Bowen guarding Kobe with the rules of old. No way Kobe shoots over 35% against him.
Thats why kobe dropped 33 ppg 43% in 2003 on bowen and 27 ppg 47% in 2004 on bowen all while in the handchecking era(rule wasn't abolished til 05).:oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Mullin would still avg great numbers in today's game... Nash does it and has no athleticism whatsoever.. Nash shoots better than any of the other perimeter superstars and has no advantages but his superior skill level.. He also has to make all his teammates better... Anyone who believes Mullin couldn't avg 26 on 50% plus shooting has just not watched that guy play..

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bowen played d with his arms on his side. What that guy did in this era is ****ing amazing. Prime Bowen would have caused madness in the past. Imagine Bowen guarding Kobe with the rules of old. No way Kobe shoots over 35% against him.

Kobe averaged just 40% shooting against Bowen for his career prior to the handcheck rules being implemented in 2006.

[necya]

Penny played in the mid-late 90's, NOT the 80's or early 90's.

You guys trying to tell me Chris Mullin can average 26-27 PPG on 50-54% shooting and Kobe can't? LOL.

you know, Kobe would average the same poor percentage in the 80's or the 90's because it's simply his game. he is like that. i really hope you will be able to see a hundred of Mullin games then you will understand why he was on the dream team I and why he is a top 10 forward.

look at lakers' games from 02-03. you can easily feel that he wanted to be the number one. and to be frank, the lakers played bad basketball, he had his 30pts game but it costs the title. when you have someone who is the absolute offensive weaping bringing 30pts every night on 60%, just play smart. something kobe bryant never did until 2008.

a second year penny hardaway was even a more mature player than a 10years kobe.

[whoartthou]

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5619/reverseevolution.png
:roll: :roll:

[Christofire]

These guys get behind this whole hand-checking band wagon and how tough it made it, but these are guys that enjoyed season of 50%fg....i still don't see how hand-checking correlates to tougher defense and higher FG%s at the same time.

Me personally i've always prefered being defended by someone pplaying defense with their hands instead of their feet, use their own leverage against them.

[Calabis]

But the handchecking era didn't end when kobe was playing. Kobe played in an era that allowed for zone defense(and therefore harder doubles~more effective team defense to contain any given player) AND they could still impede a player's progress to the rim with handchecking. This era was from the late 90s to 04.. the era kobe made his name in and was a key cog for three championship teams. Kobe has already proven he could dominate even with handcheking in place.. check his 30/7/6 '01 playoff statline.

First this is a complete lie.....second this great zone defense wasn't capable of keeping Tony Parker and many other perimeter players from leading/among leaders in in-the-paint scoring.

1999-00
• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.


2000-01

• If a player is fouled when he has a clear-path-to-the-basket, he gets one free throw and his team gets possession of the ball at midcourt.
Previously, the player received two free throws.
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.
• A five-second count will begin if an offensive player with the ball and not facing-up starts dribbling below the free throw line extended while being closely guarded or starts dribbling outside and then penetrates below the free throw line extended while being closely guarded. (The five-second count commences when the offensive player penetrates the free throw line extended). After five seconds, a violation will have occurred and the offensive team will lose possession.


2001-02
• Illegal defense guidelines will be eliminated in their entirety.
• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.
• The time that a team has to advance the ball past midcourt will be reduced from ten seconds to eight.
• Brief contact initiated by a defensive player will be allowed if it does not impede the progress of the player with the ball.

2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.


This is where Kobe made his living, in a league that kept making it easier for the offensive guy........Pistons forced the 2004 rule changes, after Mark Cuban bitched to the league about the way they defended Kobe "ie old school handchecking, chucking off screens, etc."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:

"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."

Cuban got his wish and the already stringent anti-contact rules for perimeter play became even more strict. The unintended backlash ended up blowing up in his face:

"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.

Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span

Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."

-BallerBlogger.com, article: 'Cuban Helped Eliminate Handchecking'

Don't get me wrong, Kobe would still score, he is fundamentally sound, if he had to play through this his whole career, I'm sure he would adjust, although his numbers would dip some

[Calabis]

Thats why kobe dropped 33 ppg 43% in 2003 on bowen and 27 ppg 47% in 2004 on bowen all while in the handchecking era(rule wasn't abolished til 05).:oldlol:

Kobe played against Bowen from age 30-37 :roll:

[dynasty1978]

Bowen played d with his arms on his side. What that guy did in this era is ****ing amazing. Prime Bowen would have caused madness in the past. Imagine Bowen guarding Kobe with the rules of old. No way Kobe shoots over 35% against him.


Sorry man, but I think your Spurs blinders are on. He was a terrific defender, definitely give him credit where due. But to suggest that he played defense without a hand-check is false.

I've watched almost every Laker-Spurs battle that pitted Kobe vs. Bowen and Bruce used every trick in the book on Bryant (e.g., hand-check, stand under his legs on jumpshots, etc.,). I'm not gonna flood this thread w/a million bryant/bowen highlights but enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvh9kEwekY8&feature=related

[DJ Leon Smith]

These guys get behind this whole hand-checking band wagon and how tough it made it, but these are guys that enjoyed season of 50%fg....i still don't see how hand-checking correlates to tougher defense and higher FG%s at the same time.

Because players in that era had better fundamentals, which is one of the main flaws in the "FG% is down now so that means defense is better" arguments.

And if you don't know how hand-checking makes a difference, you've obviously never played basketball before. 2K11 doesn't count.