How Did Hand-check Era = Tougher D and Higher FG%??..

[Christofire]

A good much of you people believe it was tougher, even the statheads, but the numbers don't really support it.

I just want someone to explain to me how the Illegal defense Hand-check Era made scoring harder, but yet players had higher FG%s and point totals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If I remember correctly the answer is

1. "Stats lie"
2. "Players lost fundamentals"
3. "Weakened shot selection"

Without any statistical evidence to support anything

:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

[-23-]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

Their scoring efficiency suck because they take questionable shots, and lack the proper game fundamentals.

[Teanett]

next to no post play leads to chucking.
no hand-check has every wing player thinking to be like mike or a.i.
how many big man are amongst the scoring leaders now?
the ones that are (dirk+durant, even amare) are jump shooters.

[Christofire]

Their scoring efficiency suck because they take questionable shots, and lack the proper game fundamentals.


yeah i agree, because rookie-89 jordan was so fundamentally sound as he scored to the tune of 53% and such...

[Christofire]

next to no post play leads to chucking.
no hand-check has every wing player thinking to be like mike or a.i.
how many big man are amongst the scoring leaders now?
the ones that are (dirk+durant, even amare) are jump shooters.


so it was easier to get to the paint back then?

[SinJackal]

FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.

eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.

Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.

Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.

[XxSMSxX]

FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.

eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.


This and the much better post players pre no handcheck era increased FG%

[Crown&Coke]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

wholey macrel, repped

The Jordan rules were basically a zone defense with a defender shading Jordans side (DO NOT LET HIM GET THE BALL IN THE MIDDLE because then you can't shade effecively), and hit him everytime, hard

[Christofire]

FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.

eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.

Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.

Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.

so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?

[XxSMSxX]

so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?

And was also infinitely better at picking his shots

[Teanett]

so it was easier to get to the paint back then?

harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...

[Christofire]

And was also infinitely better at picking his shots

thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?

[Christofire]

harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...

sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?

[Teanett]

so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?

that's one of the reasons.
another one is that he generally took better shots.
the main reason is that he was better. :D

[jstern]

I thought it was common knowledge.

The main reason is that single players today shoot more 3 pointers in one season than entire teams. That's the main reason.

Other lower reasons was that back then the game was more Center dominated. And I think players tended to try and get closer shots.

This is the 5th time I've said this, but I randomly took a year from the 80s and compared it to 2010, for just the 2 pt FG%, and they were both 48%.

[Christofire]

that's one of the reasons.
another one is that he generally took better shots.
the main reason is that he was better. :D

right, right...i see i see

[XxSMSxX]

thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?

Not really because Jordan still scored at a significantly higher rate than Bryant

[Orlando Magic]

If I remember correctly the answer is

1. "Stats lie"
2. "Players lost fundamentals"
3. "Weakened shot selection"

Without any statistical evidence to support anything

:oldlol:

You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

[Teanett]

thats says alot about Kobe since there is only a 4% difference in their career Fg% dont you think?

...and a 5ppg scoring difference.

[B]

so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?
Yes Kobe has shot 2300 more 3's than Jordan has. Kobe plays a much more perimeter oriented game always has. Also shooting 3's has a higher risk reward than a long 2 does so he takes more 3's like many players in the league do once they realize a 3 point shot is a better shot than a 2 point shot a couple feet inside the 3 point line

[Teanett]

sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?

two other reasons:
-illegal defense was confusing for the casual fan
-team usa got whopped in international competition

[Christofire]

You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

But Bryant fan's get lambasted for using this same argument when comparing his FG% to Jordan's though.....anyway..lets not get into that, The hypocritical reasoning when people are defending jordan is stomach churning most times.

[Teanett]

But Bryant fan's get lambasted for using this same argument when comparing his FG% to Jordan's though.....anyway..lets not get into that, The hypocritical reasoning when people are defending jordan is stomach churning most times.

no need to defend jordan over kobe. more points on higher %.
case is pretty clear.

[SinJackal]

so the only reason jordan has a higher FG% than Kobe is because he shot significantly less 3s?

Jordan didn't force up as many stupid shots. That's why his FG% was so much better. If you take away all their 3pt FGAs and remove their 3pt makes from their FGs, Jordan's FG% was still much higher. 3pt shooting volume has little to do with there being a FG% difference between those two players.

[catch24]

Less 3's , higher pace (more up-and-down style ala GS/PHX), and worse transition defense. 2001-2004 IMO were the greatest defensive seasons ever. The '96 Sonics, and '93 Knicks are however in my top 5-7 all-time defenses.

[97 bulls]

harder. that's why they passed it to the post and start the offense there.
today you'll see players looking to drive, defenses have to rotate, pass goes out and chuck away...
It was much harder also cuz of the defensive 3 second rule

[XxSMSxX]

Lol i love how there was like 200 posts with the exact same explanations in them :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

It may impact FG%, but FG% isn't important. Points per possession is.

[Hittin_Shots]

It may impact FG%, but FG% isn't important. Points per possession is.

Your name proves you're useless.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Bruce Blitz would end this thread.

[necya]

You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.


great post !

look at the game, you see too much of players waiting behind the 3pts line in today's weak league. also, the paint is like a desert. just compare with a game of the 80's or 90's. today there is not battle in the paint ! it's unbelievable. 20 years ago, there were real big men playing basketball.

then, the new generation who came into the league in the 90's. they were superstars before putting their first basket in the nba, all the kobes, iverson, this crossover, and1 tapes generation who liked to hold the ball...99-04 low points come from this new style of play. the point guard walked to pass the mid court. then you can remember all those guys dribbling and dribbling, waiting nothing and finish with a one on one move. result : you have sometimes a move for the top 10 but you have 4 players who doesn't move...and people call that great basketball...:facepalm

as you can see, this is the complete mind of the game who has changed along with the lost of the funds.

and for this idiot of yao ming foot, i will give you a stat who is not the result of any stupid formula you like so much.

kobe's FG% will always be weak. it's his game who is like that, he has been a ballhog for so many years, taking stupid shots. kobe has shot better than his own team like 3 times in a 14 years career. he doesn't bring efficiency to his team. all the other great used to shot better than their team. they brought efficiency. no need to to talk about MJ's...

[Poochymama]

FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.

eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.

Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.

Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.

This:applause: :applause: :applause:

Hasn't this been explained like 50 times? Why does it keep getting brought up?

[blablabla]

if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba

[Calabis]

sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?
:lol Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes

[DMAVS41]

:lol Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes

This topic is so tired.

Teams now play from the outside almost exclusively. They take a ton of threes now as well. Of course fg% is down. The quality of shots taken are awful and there are no good big men anymore.

The fact that the current fg% is what it is just proves how much of a joke the defensive rules are today.

How the hell can Tony Parker lead the league in points in the paint and people claim its not easier to score from the perimeter?

[jlip]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

I would like to read an intelligent rebuttal to this post.

[XxSMSxX]

if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba

No team defensive scheme will ever be able to compete with good old fashion hand checking. The ability to steer an offensive player will always be a better defensive option than whatever team defenses are played today. So actually yes your correct

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I would like to read an intelligent rebuttal to this post.

You won't find it on this forum. That's for sure.

[hitmanyr2k]

taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

Derrick Rose is a prime example of this. He was a 48-49% shooter his first two years in the league when he was taking less than one 3 point attempt a game. Now that he's shooting 5 threes a game this year his percentage is down to 44%. Makes a big difference.

[Round Mound]

Jordan didn't force up as many stupid shots. That's why his FG% was so much better. If you take away all their 3pt FGAs and remove their 3pt makes from their FGs, Jordan's FG% was still much higher. 3pt shooting volume has little to do with there being a FG% difference between those two players.

2-Point FG% is much more important than 3-Point FG%: a shot of lesser importance if you view the average "whole game" under efficiency standards

[Calabis]

Dear Fatal,

According to you handchecking was eliminated in 1980...lol, please explain these players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was — bam! — you stop him.

Why is Doug Collins talking about handchecking after 2004 rule changes?

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

Why is a current player referring to handchecking in the 80's and 90's, why does he assume the game would be a lot different?

"The game has changed big-time,” said Dallas point guard Jason Kidd . "When I came in you could hand check and hold a little bit. You could definitely be more physical with the ball-handlers.

Why is Jason Kidd talking about handchecking??

"The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

Why is Doc Rivers talking about handchecking in 94, if it was banned in 1980??

[XxSMSxX]

[QUOTE=Calabis]Dear Fatal,

According to you handchecking was eliminated in 1980...lol, please explain these players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. [B]"Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

[necya]

is fatal the one who has a kobe tatoo on his arm?

[Calabis]

is fatal the one who has a kobe tatoo on his arm?

Yup

[brownmamba00]

is fatal the one who has a kobe tatoo on his arm?
that was fake

[Calabis]

How are team defenses better now then back in the 80's-90's....because they have slowed down on offense??? Or because they take way more 3's??? Because if I refer back to my older post, please explain why 4 of the top 5 in-the-paint scorers were perimeter players.....how is this occurring in this great team defensive era. Or how about these statements:

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

[B]

[Calabis]

And since its the Kobehomers who continue to try to shove this bs down posters throats...let's see why the 2004 rule changes happened

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[XxSMSxX]

[QUOTE]It

[Showtime]

A good much of you people believe it was tougher, even the statheads, but the numbers don't really support it.

I just want someone to explain to me how the Illegal defense Hand-check Era made scoring harder, but yet players had higher FG%s and point totals.
Because they take more 3's and FT's impact FG%.

[DMAVS41]

Because they take more 3's and FT's impact FG%.

This.

I can't believe this is still going on. Its not hard.

The reasons:

1. Its easier to get to the FT line now because of the defensive rules. Because of this, players don't have to make as many shots because you can get to the line easier. A perfect example of this is Kevin Martin.

2. Players shoot a ton more threes. Its the lowest percentage shot in the game. It seriously lowers raw fg%. If you looked at efg% which combines threes and twos, you'd see that the number is actually better now.

3. The game is played oustide in now instead of inside out. There aren't any good big men so not many teams are able to run an offense through a post presence that forces a team to double.

Not hard people.

[Micku]

As Fatal 9 said, they stopped aggressive hand checking in 1980. The reason why many 80s teams had better FG% is because they didn't shoot any 3s and shot closer range-mid. Layup first, then mid. Nobody shot any 3s. You'll get similar results today if the 00s teams won't shot any 3s.

___

Handchecking will help you slow down a player while driving, or determine which way a player will go.

[XxSMSxX]

This.

I can't believe this is still going on. Its not hard.

The reasons:

1. Its easier to get to the FT line now because of the defensive rules. Because of this, players don't have to make as many shots because you can get to the line easier. A perfect example of this is Kevin Martin.

2. Players shoot a ton more threes. Its the lowest percentage shot in the game. It seriously lowers raw fg%. If you looked at efg% which combines threes and twos, you'd see that the number is actually better now.

3. The game is played oustide in now instead of inside out. There aren't any good big men so not many teams are able to run an offense through a post presence that forces a team to double.

Not hard people.

i cant stand when the C's play Kevin Martin he's soooooo damn good at getting the refs to call fouls for em. He'll have like 10 fg attempted and end up with 32 pts like :wtf:

[T-bomb 25]

Boy if KJ played now with no hand checking all paint point records would be broken,he had a 50 point game in the finals against Jordan and Pippen and they both were at his mercy. I could only imagine what he would do now it would make Tony Parkers paint stats look like childs play.:lol :roll:

[alexandreben]

The four times modification of hand-checking:


First modification:
It was 1978-79 season that NBA released new rules to limit the power of hand-checking to prohibit hand-checking through

[whoartthou]

how ironic, the first three responses in this thread are from die-hard kobe stans. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[whoartthou]

Spittin that ether :applause:
:applause:

[whoartthou]

[QUOTE=Calabis]And since its the Kobehomers who continue to try to shove this bs down posters throats...let's see why the 2004 rule changes happened

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[Soundwave]

I think the big reason FG% is lower today is because the league has become a more perimeter oriented/3 point shooting league today.

You could hand check all you wanted in the 90s, it wasn't going to stop Hakeem, Ewing, DRob, Shaq, etc. from shooting over 50%.

Nowadays, it's mostly guards that run most offences and they love to shoot those long fadeaway Js or spot up and wait for a 3 point shot. But these are basically by definition lower percentage shots.

[Christofire]

I don't even know the hand-check rules anymore because in any given games it' a foul and in the next it's not. KG still hand-checks, Artest, Fisher.


The playoffs plays host to a great deal of hand-checking. Durant got mugged by Artest.


Hand-checking has been curtailed several times, but the league still allows a good much of it. It's difficlt to get it out of the game which is why we'll always see hand-checking of some sort. It's just a part of the game that no matter how they try to cut it out it still occurs. These rules are more so enforced in the regular than the Post season.

[Da_Realist]

kobe's FG% will always be weak. it's his game who is like that, he has been a ballhog for so many years, taking stupid shots. kobe has shot better than his own team like 3 times in a 14 years career. he doesn't bring efficiency to his team. all the other great used to shot better than their team. they brought efficiency. no need to to talk about MJ's...

Truer words have never been spoken

[Da_Realist]

Calabis totally shut this thread down. Nice work. :applause:

[Pointguard]

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

Rose gets touched on nearly every drive. His shots are harder than most players as teams usually converge on him.

[Christofire]

Rose gets touched on nearly every drive. His shots are harder than most players as teams usually converge on him.

Rose gets body contacted alot at the rim and doesn't get a call....What i love bout Rose is that he goes to the rim looking to score not to get fouled. That could probably bewhy he does get much foul calls, but it nice to see players going to the rim with intentions of putting the ball in the hoops as opposed to just trying to throw thereself into people.

[Pointguard]

Rose gets body contacted alot at the rim and doesn't get a call....What i love bout Rose is that he goes to the rim looking to score not to get fouled. That could probably bewhy he does get much foul calls, but it nice to see players going to the rim with intentions of putting the ball in the hoops as opposed to just trying to throw thereself into people.
Yeah, the game is far more into the theatrics than a guy just looking to play the game. When you play to the refs it messes up the integrity of the game. They still play up to the floppers and play down on guys who genuinely play the game. It's becoming clown ball.

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=Calabis]And since its the Kobehomers who continue to try to shove this bs down posters throats...let's see why the 2004 rule changes happened

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[Calabis]

I don't even know the hand-check rules anymore because in any given games it' a foul and in the next it's not. KG still hand-checks, Artest, Fisher.


The playoffs plays host to a great deal of hand-checking. Durant got mugged by Artest.


Hand-checking has been curtailed several times, but the league still allows a good much of it. It's difficlt to get it out of the game which is why we'll always see hand-checking of some sort. It's just a part of the game that no matter how they try to cut it out it still occurs. These rules are more so enforced in the regular than the Post season.

You're going to see some contact with hands from time to time, they are allowed to get away with this mostly in the post, but u'r not going to see them guide players with it anymore, you're not going to see it done hard enough, where it forces a dribbler to turn his back.....and you also have bs like this being called, which is what today people call a physical series :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T01Qa6CIT6o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgi8Oc_WzVM&feature=related

Look at the handcheck called @ 1:45