ESPN Asks : Better building block: James or Rose?

[Kellogs4toniee]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=6303762&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d6303762

It's an insider article, so i was only able to read the preview. If someone can link entire article that would be great.

Reason I bring it up is because just reading the previews, a person (Bucher) actually voted for Rose.

I love Rose to death, and I hate Lebron as much as I can hate any player, but from a basketball standpoint I just don't see any argument for Rose being a better building block than Lebron. Very surprised an analyst actually picked Rose on this one.

Thoughts?

[Harison]

:facepalm

[kaiiu]

Rose.

[Droid101]

I take Rose. He looks loyal. You don't want your franchise player walking away when he feels bored with the situation.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

:facepalm

This.

[PoohRose]

Rose

[comerb]

Rose is barely a better PG than Lebron, much less a better all around player.

[DJmicah]

The LeBron Hate On this Board is AMAZING :eek:

[crisoner]

Rose because I hate James.

[crisoner]

The LeBron Hate On this Board is AMAZING :eek:

He pulled the d8ck move during the off season dissing two major franchises (Bulls,Knicks) pisst off his home town...of course LA doesn't like him...so what you expect?

He now plays for a fan base that needs to fan up as well.....Miami is not a good NBA town.

[LaysUpBricks]

Here's the entire article. It's Chris Broussard and Ric Bucher debating, so their initials (CB & RB) start their dialogue.



Question: Who would you rather build a team around, Derrick Rose or LeBron James?
BROUSSARD: Derrick Rose appears to be headed to his first MVP award -- and deservedly so. Many, particularly those influenced solely by statistics, believe LeBron James should win his third straight award. I do believe LeBron is the league's best player, but this year I'd choose Rose over him for MVP. That said, if I had to pick between the two of them when starting a team, I'd take LeBron -- hands-down.

Bucher: I agree with you that James, when it comes to pure talent, has more than anybody else in the league right now. But I would take Rose ahead of LeBron if I'm starting a team because the talent difference is not all that great, and Rose fills two of the most difficult roles that a team must have: floor leader and closer.


CB: LeBron is more than the greatest talent in the league. He produces. He may be only 85 to 90 percent the player he could be, but he's still the best in the game. I don't have to tell you how ridiculous his offensive numbers are, but he does it on the defensive end of the floor, too. One scout for a title-contending team recently told me LeBron would be his choice for offensive and defensive player of the year. He raved about how much LeBron talks on the floor, how he knows where everyone on both teams is supposed to be, how he guards his own man well and how he plays great help defense. Former Cleveland Cavaliers coach Mike Brown has told folks up at ESPN that LeBron's the smartest player he's ever coached. Remember, Brown was an assistant on one of the San Antonio Spurs' Tim Duncan-led title teams.

LeBron has done more than Rose has this year three times (2007, 2009, 2010) -- all with far weaker supporting casts. Where was his Carlos Boozer or Joakim Noah in those years? Definitely not taking anything away from Rose, but LeBron is just plain better.

RB: I'm not going to get into a debate about supporting casts; I'd say there were several years in Cleveland LeBron had more talent than Rose has around him now. The difference, to me, is that Rose doesn't look for anybody else to lead or take a big shot. He leads from start to finish, plays hard from start to finish and works on his game from start to finish. It leaves no excuses for anybody else and, maybe it's just me, but I believe that's why all the supporting Bulls commit themselves to their roles as they do. As for LeBron, I've heard the same platitudes -- he knows where everybody is supposed to be, and there's no question he's capable of dominating at both ends. And yet, he doesn't. I'd even say your estimate is low: He's about 75 percent of the player he could be. And that's the problem. After eight seasons, entering his prime, he's not playing to his potential. If you and I know that, surely everybody else around him does. I just can't have my best player coming up short like that. No matter how talented, it cripples the message I need my entire team to embrace: No Excuses.

CB: Lots of players aren't 100 percent the player they could be in their eighth season. Heck, Kobe Bryant was a bad teammate much later than his eighth season -- publicly demanding a trade, which belittled his teammates and even, in most people's opinion, tanking a playoff game by not shooting in the second half versus the Phoenix Suns. So to say LeBron still has room to grow is not a death knell to his game. I'd say it's encouraging that as great as he already is he still has room to get better by adding a post game and better shot selection and improving his foul shooting.

And who said LeBron doesn't want the ball in the clutch? He scored many late, game-winning buckets in Cleveland, and earlier this season he practically always had the ball in his hands on the last play in Miami. He averages more fourth-quarter points per game than Rose. You can question his effectiveness in those spots, mainly this year, but he hasn't shied away from the opportunity.

Put LeBron on just about any team in the league and it's a conference title contender. That's been proven by the fact that with him Cleveland was the league's best regular-season club the past two years; without him, they're the worst. Again, not taking anything away from Rose, but many argue the Bulls' terrific defense is as responsible for their great record as Rose is. While I don't agree, that the Bulls have a positive plus-minus without Rose on the floor shows that his team is still strong without him. Bottom line, put LeBron on the Bulls instead of Rose and Chicago has the best record in the league and is the favorite to win it all.

RB: If I understand you correctly, LeBron's flaws should be excused because his statistics are so impressive in spite of them, or, after eight seasons, other guys also had flaws? That's exactly the mindset that has resulted in LeBron being regarded as the most talented player in the league but not the most valuable.

Taking shots in the clutch is not the same as embracing the role. LeBron's answer with the game on the line is pound the rock and shoot a buzzer-beating 3-pointer or put his head down and barrel to the hoop. If he really relished that role, he never would've gone to Miami, where he now has competition for it.

Kobe went through a growth spurt of maturity later in his career, but it had everything to do with adjusting to less talent around him then compensating as his physical skills began to diminish. His game, as far as footwork and developing sweet spots and defending, was all in place well before his eighth season. LeBron really is puzzling because he is smart and he obviously does study the game, yet the application under pressure is often missing. He's unselfish as long as he gets to play the way he wants to play. This might just be me, but if I have my choice, I'd prefer not to have my cornerstone full of contradictions.

One of the biggest reasons I'd feel better about building around Rose is that he has shown no inclination to be a GM in relief. I wouldn't blame him if he did, because it's nothing new to have great players use their power, as LeBron did, to make demands. But I love that Rose's attitude is, "I'll make whatever you give me work." It allows me to fix my eye toward the long-term goal of a perennial champion, not the short-term goal of keeping my superstar happy. Kobe made trade demands, but only after two seasons of killing himself just to get his team to the playoffs. He already knew what the formula for a title was; LeBron still doesn't.

CB: Much of your argument seems based on the "closer/finisher" notion. You are among the many who make this a much bigger and more controversial situation than it really is. This is not baseball. You don't need one guy designated to take the last shot every time. Didn't Steve Kerr and John Paxson hit game-winners with Michael Jordan on the floor. How many big last-second shots did Robert Horry and Derek Fisher make while playing with Kobe and Shaq? And who's the closer for the Boston Celtics? Paul Pierce or Ray Allen? What you want is a guy, or guys, who can make a play. We all know LeBron can make a play, whether on a pass to an open teammate or a shot. How about putting the ball in his hands, running a play and seeing what develops? It could be a shot for him or a pass to Dwyane Wade, Eddie House or whomever. Just putting him at the top of the key and asking him to go 1-on-4 or 1-on-5 is not the way.

And then you go and rip LeBron for choosing to play with other great players. What, that's a bad thing? That he doesn't mind sharing the spotlight? LeBron's aware that no one in league history has won multiple rings without other great players. MJ and Magic Johnson had two other Hall of Fame teammates; Larry Bird had three. Kobe has never won a ring without the best offensive post scorer in the league. So now LeBron's worthy of condemnation because he recognizes that it takes a team, not just one great superstar, to win rings? And remember, Rose is only in his third year. If he has four more years of getting close yet ultimately falling short, who knows if he'll feel the need to upgrade the roster around him? LeBron re-upped in Cleveland without any roster concerns, too, as a younger player.

Amazing how you excuse Kobe's trade demands because he spent two years "killing himself" just to get to the playoffs, yet you overlook that LeBron spent seven years doing the same in Cleveland. And is it just me, or didn't Kobe (to his credit) add some post moves well after his eighth season?

Continued to next post

[LaysUpBricks]

RB: We have different definitions of a player "killing himself." I can't say that about LeBron in Cleveland, after he failed to develop a complete game and took as long as he did to become a defensive presence. The desire to play with great players isn't a bad thing, but when it's a player who duplicates what you do, it smacks of someone who doesn't want to carry that particular role on his shoulders. As for putting the ball in LeBron's hands and letting him make a play, I believe we've seen plenty of that, in Miami and Cleveland. The excuse (funny how that word keeps coming up) in Cleveland was that he didn't have that guy who could knock down shots in the clutch next to him. But now he has that guy in Wade, and end-of-game execution isn't any better. (I might put that on the coach if not for LeBron's propensity to break plays.) Talking about a guy willing to take over at crunch time is a euphemism for someone willing to take responsibility for winning or losing a game every single night. The Jordans, Birds, Kobes and Roses wouldn't dream of having someone else take that responsibility. It doesn't mean always taking the shot, but it does mean aggressively looking to create the best shot available. As with most everything, sometimes LeBron does it and sometimes he doesn't. I sometimes wonder if he's just a victim of being so gifted. So much of the game comes so easily to him and he's had so much success without developing a complete arsenal that the motivation is just not there. But if I have my choice, that's not the kind of guy I want leading my team.

Comparing Rose and James is a bit apples and oranges-ish, because James has a greater body of work, and an impressive one. We've also had a longer stretch to see exactly where his shortcomings are. Rose is going to need a lot of things to go right to match or surpass LeBron -- health and shrewd decisions by the Bulls being the primary ones. But I'll take his trajectory over his first three years versus what LeBron did. Yes, LeBron's numbers grew exponentially, but it took him three years to translate all that individual greatness into a playoff berth. Rose has transformed his game and, handed a different group almost every year, dragged each one of them into the postseason, including guys such as Ben Gordon and Brad Miller, who have not seen the playoffs since. After two years, he took on the challenge of claiming his candidacy for MVP and the Bulls' worthiness as champions. It takes guts to do things like that and despite all of LeBron's gifts, he's avoided putting that kind of pressure on himself.

LeBron's talent is unrivaled; no argument from me there. But that's the rub: If your best player isn't your leader, playing hard every minute and maximizing his gifts, it doesn't matter how great that talent is; the ability to get everybody maximizing their talent and playing as hard as they can -- the prerequisite to winning a title -- is almost impossible. (See: Allen Iverson or Tracy McGrady or Shaq without Kobe or Wade -- all of whom, at one point or another, could claim the title of most gifted player in the league. And all of whom, without a player of equal talent to lead the team, were ring-less.) Rose isn't going to win any rings by himself. But he doesn't think he needs another superstar to do it. That's the mindset my cornerstone has to have.

CB: Bottom line:

Better/More efficient scorer: LeBron
Better rebounder: LeBron
Better passer: LeBron (or even)
Better defender: LeBron
Bigger/Stronger body: LeBron

I won't compare winning pedigree, since it's eight years versus three, but if Rose as an eighth-year vet has taken teams as far as LeBron has thus far he'll be doing well. Rose may be maximizing his talent more than LeBron, but the fact is his ceiling isn't as high.

RB: This is not about who has the most talent; it's about who you would build your team around, given the choice. LeBron is capable of being better in all those categories -- and yet he's not, night in and night out. There was a time you could take your list of categories and McGrady would've topped Kobe in all but the defender category. Rasheed Wallace had it over Tim Duncan in "every" category. But who would you take to start your team?

I have a list, too:

Better leader: Rose
Better use of his teammates: Rose
Better work ethic: Rose
Better poise under pressure: Rose
Better accountability: Rose

Ultimately, I can find rebounders and scorers and defenders to complement and enhance what Rose has, enough to offset whatever individual advantage LeBron or any other player may have. What is truly rare is to find a player who, three years into his career, already dominates his position as much as any player in the league and has all those intangible qualities that assure I will get the most out of whatever talent I put around him. I'm not sure what Rose is going to be, but I have no doubt about who he is and what he's going to give me every day.

Shifty cornerstones make for fragile franchises. You do shiny. I'll take solid.

CB: I really want to stop, but you keep making baseless assertions that demand a rebuttal. You say, night in, night out, LeBron's not a better/more efficient scorer, rebounder and defender than Rose? Really?! According to who? Probably no one but you. And I never would've put T-Mac ahead of Kobe in anything but perhaps passing. Rasheed over Duncan? Again, I guess you felt that way, but I never did. You're going to compare a player who has led a group of role players to the league's best record twice, as well as the NBA Finals once, to a guy who's never won a playoff series, despite playing with Yao Ming? Or to Wallace, who never averaged even 20 points or nine rebounds a game, not to mention never even trying to be a leader? Really?

And you're assuming Rose has a better work ethic than LeBron because of what? He improved his 3-point shooting to 33 percent? What about his field goal percentage dropping from 49 to 44 percent? By your logic, I guess that means he didn't work hard enough on some other aspect of his game. Or maybe he's shooting too many 3s? He's shooting more 3s than LeBron this year despite both of them shooting the same percentage. LeBron's shooting fewer 3s than he has since his rookie season. LeBron's playing off the ball for the first time in his career. He's moving without the ball, setting screens and playing a significant amount of time at power forward. Those are all signs of growth, sacrifice and a willingness to make changes for the sake of winning.

It's like you're punishing him, unable to recognize what he's already achieved, because you have some astronomical idea of what he should be. A guy who dominated his position in his third year like no other? How about LeBron? No small forward was even close to him by then. Yet Deron Williams, Chris Paul and even Russell Westbrook are all right there with Rose. You act as if LeBron's just a bunch of stats and nothing else, like he's never achieved team success. What he's never done is lose to a lesser or equally talented team in the playoffs.

With no other perennial all-stars beside him, he fell to a stacked championship team in Detroit, a dynastic Spurs club, a Celtics crew with three Hall of Famers and an Orlando squad that was unquestionably more talented than the Cavs (and he averaged nearly 40 points, eight rebounds and eight assists in that series). After LeBron, the next three best players (Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu) all played for the Magic. To imply that LeBron hasn't gotten the most out of the talent around him throughout his career is just plain asinine. In 2007, he took probably the worst supporting cast in history to the Finals. Look at the Cavaliers this year without him. Think Mo Williams will be making any more all-star teams? You question his leadership, but consistently leading a marginally talented supporting cast to the heights he did in Cleveland is evidence of strong leadership. The Cavs didn't lose those series because they lacked leadership or mental toughness; they lost to better, more talented teams, teams they only had a prayer of beating because of LeBron.

I love Rose and he's going to get my MVP vote this year, but you're off base in taking him over LeBron.

Last part on next post (such a long article)

[LaysUpBricks]

RB: The bottom line for me is that LeBron never has gotten the most out of his talent, nor the talent around him. How can you say he's 85 percent of the player he could be after eight years, claim Rose is closer to his ceiling after three and then question who has the better work ethic? How can you say he's gotten the most out of the talent around him when, by virtue of not maximizing his own abilities, that's virtually impossible? You keep bringing up the Cavs this year, as if LeBron is the only difference. Two other rotation players -- Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Shaq -- didn't come back, Anderson Varejao missed practically the entire season and Williams and Daniel Gibson missed long stretches with injuries. That's five of their eight best players. Do that to any team and it would fall off a cliff.

And why wouldn't you say T-Mac was at one point better than Kobe? Statistically, he was in 2002-03 and that's what you're basing your comparisons on. All of your comparisons are statistical, except for wins and losses. Unfortunately, we don't have simple numbers (other than wins and losses) to recite to measure the categories I gave. That requires watching guys do their jobs and interact with their coaches and teammates. You want to build around a guy who reluctantly followed his coach's game plan and often disregarded it. I'll take the guy who embraces every challenge his coach gives him to improve. You want the guy who spent years talking about all the different places he might play. I'll take the guy who has made it absolutely clear his only mission is to win championships for the team he's on now.

As I said, you get no argument from me on LeBron's talent. But that talent isn't great enough to make up for the other missing elements. You want to know what's missing? Watch and listen. To Rose.

[kaiiu]

Bucher:applause: broussars is da biggest bron dickrider in the world fvckin f@g doe like

[Kellogs4toniee]

Lol. Reading that article was sort of like reading a glorified version of a thread on ISH.

[pauk]

see..... told u.....

next coming up...

"Rose or Jordan... who is better?"

this is just terrible.... how bout finding out who is better and who u would build around first WESTBROOK or ROSE

this overrating of rose.... is just getting sickening... what are they trying to do seriously???? we can see he aint even a top 10 player for **** sake in everybodys book.... and now u wanna compare him to the best player in the world?

[chazzy]

Lol. Reading that article was sort of like reading a glorified version of a thread on ISH.
I was just about to say that haha

[Rose]

I think it's funny how Rose is quickly becoming the golden boy of the NBA. Poor poor Bronzy.:roll:

[chazzy]

I think it's funny how Rose is quickly becoming the golden boy of the NBA. Poor poor Bronzy.:roll:
And poor pauk. You can gauge his anger by the size of his font :lol

[Rose]

And poor pauk. You can gauge his anger by the size of his font :lol
I know.:oldlol: The sad part will be if Rose beats him to a ring. Can you imagine all the highlights I'll collect over the last 4 years into a video saying Bronzy is the best! he'll win a ring and be the most dominate player ever?!?! My God, I will troll so hard I'd have as many accounts as Sergio.:roll:

[pauk]

I think it's funny how Rose is quickly becoming the golden boy of the NBA. Poor poor Bronzy.:roll:

there is nothing wrong with being a golden boy...... absolutely not....

but if that golden boy is adam morrison... and is compared to oscar robertson as in "better build block: adam or oscar?".......... then u know its exaggaration.... massively brutal overrating....


i know ur a rose fan ROSE and i know u aint that biased........... so be honest with me? are you SERIOUSLY thinking rose is not overrated??? not even just a little???? :confusedshrug:

[pauk]

And poor pauk. You can gauge his anger by the size of his font :lol

eheheheh ehe hehe he aaaaahhhehehehohohohoho hi hi hi h ih ih ihh
SOOOOOOO FFFUUNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYY UUU ARRREEEEEEEEEEEE

WWWWOOOWWWW

:rolleyes:

i type as i wish biyatch... u mad?

[Soundwave]

If Rose doesn't lead the Bulls to the NBA Finals/Championship will he take the heat that LeBron did?

I also have my doubts Rose would be able to take those Cavs teams of the last few years anywhere in LeBron's place.

That said, LeBron is like Shaq mentally -- there's a certain level of immaturity that he may not ever grow out of combined with freakish physical ability.

[24r2]

^

only on ish

[Rose]

there is nothing wrong with being a golden boy...... absolutely not....

but if that golden boy is adam morrison... and is compared to oscar robertson as in "better build block: adam or oscar?".......... then u know its exaggaration.... massively brutal overrating....


i know ur a rose fan ROSE and i know u aint that biased........... so be honest with me? are you SERIOUSLY thinking rose is not overrated??? not even just a little???? :confusedshrug:
not at all. I'll admit he's winning MVP in a weak year, lots of writers are admitting that, but does he deserve it? yes.
Is the sky the limit for him? There's nothing to suggest otherwise.
Has anyone said he'll be the best or is the best right now? Only idiots on ISH.

I feel he's rated correctly, just Kobe/Bronzy fanboys are taking it harder because they realize the torch is about to be passed to a guy who's 22, while Kobe is fading out of the league it shouldn't affect them that much, and truth be told it doesn't. BUT it does effect guys like you, which it should because it's funny how he ruined his image at such a young age.

[pauk]

not at all. I'll admit he's winning MVP in a weak year, lots of writers are admitting that, but does he deserve it? yes.
Is the sky the limit for him? There's nothing to suggest otherwise.
Has anyone said he'll be the best or is the best right now? Only idiots on ISH.

I feel he's rated correctly, just Kobe/Bronzy fanboys are taking it harder because they realize the torch is about to be passed to a guy who's 22, while Kobe is fading out of the league it shouldn't affect them that much, and truth be told it doesn't. BUT it does effect guys like you, which it should because it's funny how he ruined his image at such a young age.

yes he does diserve it....but im not talking about MVP.... i am talking about the overrating of his TALENTS/SKILLS......................... which are not any much better than westbrook actually!

comparing rose to lebron is like comparing westbrook to lebron.... its not any different at all....

[asdf1990]

Hopefully people are choosing rose cuz of the age factor if not get to the doctor asap.

[detroitdogg]

there is nothing wrong with being a golden boy...... absolutely not....

but if that golden boy is adam morrison... and is compared to oscar robertson as in "better build block: adam or oscar?".......... then u know its exaggaration.... massively brutal overrating....


i know ur a rose fan ROSE and i know u aint that biased........... so be honest with me? are you SERIOUSLY thinking rose is not overrated??? not even just a little???? :confusedshrug:
Wade and Bron teaming up was the best thing to happen for D Rose's career, dude is not having anwhere near an AMAZING season, he should not be compared to the Brons,Wade's, or Kobes of the league, all 3 of these guys worse years makes Rose's current MVP year look like nothing. Rose is the best PG in the league and thats not by any type of wide margin, he is not 60% of the player Wade or Bron is, he does absolutley nothing better than them on the court, he should not be compared to these dudes on any level, period.

[Rose]

yes he does diserve it....but im not talking about MVP.... i am talking about the overrating of his TALENTS/SKILLS......................... which are not any much better than westbrook actually!
you're not a dumbass, you realize Westbrook is the second option. And Rose doesn't have a guy with Durant's talents or skills, and still has the Bulls on pace for 60 wins, even with Boozer/Noah missing 55 games.

[pauk]

you're not a dumbass, you realize Westbrook is the second option. And Rose doesn't have a guy with Durant's talents or skills, and still has the Bulls on pace for 60 wins, even with Boozer/Noah missing 55 games.

1. are u telling me durant would be the second option to rose???? :confusedshrug: not only would rose be a 2nd option... he would average much less than westbrook does with durant...... and imagine westbrook in roses situation???? he would do the exact same thing but be even more productive!!

2. no rose doesnt have Durant.... he has something even better.... DEFENSE..... and Boozer & Noah and Deng who outproduce any other 3 man starting lineup of Durant in points rebounds assists blocks steals.......... at the end of day its about who actually produces!!! not who has a more fancy name!!!

3. ONCE AGAIN.... its a matter of skills/talent.... not who is the leader in his team.... or who has a better record..... rose is not better than durant.... and is arguably not even better than westbrook!!

[Heat007]

Wade and Bron teaming up was the best thing to happen for D Rose's career, dude is not having anwhere near an AMAZING season, he should not be compared to the Brons,Wade's, or Kobes of the league, all 3 of these guys worse years makes Rose's current MVP year look like nothing.

Rose is the best PG in the league and thats not by any type of wide margin, he is not 60% of the player Wade or Bron is, he does absolutley nothing better than them on the court, he should not be compared to these dudes on any level, period.

Agreed

[Jasper]

I am probably wasting my time typing again , but I am old school and bball still wins games in how postions are defined.
SG- shoot
PG's - pass and facilitate
SF's - do everything depending on talent vs ( weakside , strongside)
PF's - do what Centers do , but are much more mobile and play typically strongside
C's - play the lane , strong side
---------------------------------------
Lets start with Rose : He is a very talented player and facilitates be being the 1st or 2nd option. This is not a typical PG player as to how to play the position. Typical PG's will only shoot about 12 shots a game or so , but land on the free throw line because they facilitate driving and dishing..
They should all most equal dimes to points and steals should be the highest of the team , because of their quickness.
Rose once he gets older , may lose a step , and become a SG.
---------------
Lebron James : freak of nature in the bball world.
Obviously you build around this guy because his game is not set by the standard bball charts - he makes his own.
I continuely state that he needs to play without the ball more to actually make his team and himself even more deadly.
His low post game will continue to improve and will become more of a weapon. (He can literally play 4 positions and my guess down the road you will see him in the next few years become that type of player if and or when the coach calls upon him to do it.
Look this year in the playoffs for Lebron to play defense on opponents you would not expect him to cover !!!!!!!!!!!

Stat's show that other than , Cozz , Cycle Frazier , Billups , West , Majic - elite PG's don't win championships but wing players and big men make the difference.
Lebron is a wing player and its much easier to build around him.

[Bone Machine]

I would take James no questions asked, but I understand the argument where he might leave.

[Rose]

1. are u telling me durant would be the second option to rose???? :confusedshrug: not only would rose be a 2nd option... he would average much less than westbrook does with durant...... and imagine westbrook in roses situation???? he would do the exact same thing but be even more productive!!

2. no rose doesnt have Durant.... he has something even better.... DEFENSE..... and Boozer & Noah and Deng who outproduce any other 3 man starting lineup of Durant in points rebounds assists blocks steals.......... at the end of day its about who actually produces!!! not who has a more fancy name!!!

3. ONCE AGAIN.... its a matter of skills/talent.... not who is the leader in his team.... or who has a better record..... rose is not better than durant.... and is arguably not even better than westbrook!!

4. i am not a dumbass.... but are u?
The difference is: Rose is the first option. Westbrook is the second option. Whether or not Rose would be the second option is irrelevant, and if he had him he'd just pass more. The difference between Russy and Rose is Rose does more with far far less.

2. The Thunder have Sefo, Ibaka, and Perkins that's a terrific line up as well. Neither is a slouch defensive line up, and I'll admit that the Bulls is better, and Boozer isn't a good defender at all lol.

3. Rose is better than both. All Durant can do is score, endlessly, but that's all he can do.

4. Maybe! I'll admit the defense is the reason why the Bulls win, but the reason why that works is because of Rose's scoring no one else can score like he does or when he does. Especially given Boozer has missed a third of the season.

[DJmicah]

you're not a dumbass, you realize Westbrook is the second option. And Rose doesn't have a guy with Durant's talents or skills, and still has the Bulls on pace for 60 wins, even with Boozer/Noah missing 55 games.
westbrook is a second option that is performing the same as rose, anyways why does he bring up westbrook? D-will still has an argument but nobody even thinks about westbrook, CP3 was much better but that damned injury stopped him from being as good as he once was, still I think rose has become the pg in the league, I think his team helped alot when boozer and noah came back, but before that he made sure they kept winning without them, pauk can argue he's overrated, but there's not much competition at pg outside of deron and (hardly) westbrook, needless to say the only reason I would pick him over Bron is because he's younger. Just My Opinion On The Subject

[Rose]

westbrook is a second option that is performing the same as rose, anyways why does he bring up westbrook? D-will still has an argument but nobody even thinks about westbrook, CP3 was much better but that damned injury stopped him from being as good as he once was, still I think rose has become the pg in the league, I think his team helped alot when boozer and noah came back, but before that he made sure they kept winning without them, pauk can argue he's overrated, but there's not much competition at pg outside of deron and (hardly) westbrook, needless to say the only reason I would pick him over Bron is because he's younger. Just My Opinion On The Subject
Agreed with your post pretty much.

[derb2k2]

this has to be a joke. Lebron and it's not even close. lol

[GOBB]

I take Rose. He looks loyal. You don't want your franchise player walking away when he feels bored with the situation.

How do you look loyal? :roll: Stupid observation on your end.

[che guevara]

Bucher's argument was just pitiful. Does he seriously get paid for that?

[Borat]

Based solely on playing abilites I'd say Lebron for all the usual reasons.

[Borat]

RB: I'm not going to get into a debate about supporting casts; I'd say there were several years in Cleveland LeBron had more talent than Rose has around him now. The difference, to me, is that Rose doesn't look for anybody else to lead or take a big shot. He leads from start to finish, plays hard from start to finish and works on his game from start to finish. It leaves no excuses for anybody else and, maybe it's just me, but I believe that's why all the supporting Bulls commit themselves to their roles as they do. As for LeBron, I've heard the same platitudes -- he knows where everybody is supposed to be, and there's no question he's capable of dominating at both ends. And yet, he doesn't. I'd even say your estimate is low: He's about 75 percent of the player he could be. And that's the problem. After eight seasons, entering his prime, he's not playing to his potential. If you and I know that, surely everybody else around him does. I just can't have my best player coming up short like that. No matter how talented, it cripples the message I need my entire team to embrace: No Excuses.

What a woeful paragraph.

[detroitdogg]

Bucher's argument was just pitiful. Does he seriously get paid for that?
This, that ***** brought absolutley nothing to the debate, nothing, he has to be the only big name analyst who has never used a fact in his whole career, everything this ***** says is based off his biased opinion where he will suck ou off for not acting like a urban *****, his basketball analzing has nothing to do whit on the court play, and dude has been like that for years.


If yall aint know though, RB is a Heat hater and has been that since they won in 06, he NEVER sas anything good about the Heat, in 08 where Wade was clearly the best in the league, he said that Wade had NEVER been a top 5 player in the league. Earlier this year before the season started he was asked about the Heat, he said that they have 2 of the top 8 players in the league, so I guess Wade has never been in the top 8 in the league in his eyes, SMH, dude is a *****.

[DJmicah]

Agreed with your post pretty much.
Pauks argument for westbrook comes down to this: Superstars, westbrooks got 'em, Rose doesn't, I checked the stats(pauk would have a better argument if he pulled those up instead of claiming stuff) and westbrook beats him out in points and rebounds by a small margin( I rounded) Westbrook:21/5/8 Rose:26/4/8
What hurts russell is he has durant, same for bron and wade, the teams success can always be credited to the other superstar, therefore you can argue that russells stats do nothing for the team and durant is why they are winning, if durant wasn't there and russell had those stats he would be credited for the teams success as "the man" and would likely be in the MVP race aswell(though you can still argue about the rest of the thunder team, which IS talented) you see rose doesn't have another superstar, so the credit for the teams success goes to him,and even if you (somehow) argue boozer is a superstar, he was injured for most of the season. Anyways this is the same reason Bron won MVP the last two years:Superstars :pimp:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:facepalm @ people actually picking Derrick Rose

[KingBeasley08]

I think it's funny how Rose is quickly becoming the golden boy of the NBA. Poor poor Bronzy.:roll:
thats not necessarily a good thing. the media loves u but when they get a chance to tear u apart, they will get u.

AI's words

[jasonresno]

thats not necessarily a good thing. the media loves u but when they get a chance to tear u apart, they will get u.

AI's words
That's a poor paraphrase. It was AI to LBJ ABOUT Clevelands fans. Not the media.

[KingBeasley08]

That's a poor paraphrase. It was AI to LBJ ABOUT Clevelands fans. Not the media.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191903

my bad. for some reason, i always thought AI was referring to the media. never actually saw the video, just judged based off the comments on it.

[97 bulls]

I know.:oldlol: The sad part will be if Rose beats him to a ring. Can you imagine all the highlights I'll collect over the last 4 years into a video saying Bronzy is the best! he'll win a ring and be the most dominate player ever?!?! My God, I will troll so hard I'd have as many accounts as Sergio.:roll:
Lol my man.

And id pick rose to build a team around. And this is the reason. James has been in the league 7 years. And has marginally improved his overall game. Rose every year has gotton better at something. Be it his jumpshot, his 3pt shooting, his decision making. Just think how good rose will be after 7 years in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if he developes a post game.

[KingBeasley08]

dumb question. lebron

[GOBB]

Lol my man.

And id pick rose to build a team around. And this is the reason. James has been in the league 7 years. And has marginally improved his overall game. Rose every year has gotton better at something. Be it his jumpshot, his 3pt shooting, his decision making. Just think how good rose will be after 7 years in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if he developes a post game.

Lebron is arguably the best player in the game. Rose isnt. Not near it. After 7yrs he might be arguable but the fact will remain after Rose gets 7yrs in? Bron would still be at the top barring any significant injuries. All he has to work on is his low post game. Other than that? Guy is unstoppable offensively and a triple double threat nightly. What Rose is doing today Bron been there, done that. And again when Rose gets 7yrs under his belt Bron will still be top dawg.

[KingBeasley08]

Lebron is arguably the best player in the game. Rose isnt. Not near it. After 7yrs he might be arguable but the fact will remain after Rose gets 7yrs in? Bron would still be at the top barring any significant injuries. All he has to work on is his low post game. Other than that? Guy is unstoppable offensively and a triple double threat nightly. What Rose is doing today Bron been there, done that. And again when Rose gets 7yrs under his belt Bron will still be top dawg.
a GOBB post that I agree with :applause:

[jasonresno]

Lol my man.

And id pick rose to build a team around. And this is the reason. James has been in the league 7 years. And has marginally improved his overall game. Rose every year has gotton better at something. Be it his jumpshot, his 3pt shooting, his decision making. Just think how good rose will be after 7 years in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if he developes a post game.
Same here. Rose has a better head on his shoulders, a beastly work effort, and no ceiling. He's also got 4 years in the league on LBJ.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Same here. Rose has a better head on his shoulders, a beastly work effort, and no ceiling. He's also got 4 years in the league on LBJ.


To add to that, the main reason I would pick Rose is because of his nature. Everything from his loyalty, humbleness, ability to synergize with an entirely new coach, new team-mates, etc. screams franchise-building material. You don't have to worry about baby-sitting a man-child.

[Harion]

You don't have to worry about baby-sitting a man-child.
Kobe says Hi. wait, the Lakers took 2 man-child, Shaq and Kobe. and won! FML.

[knightfall88]

We all know who is the most talented. But unless you are one of the top 3 big market teams you would not touch James.

[RJChPD]

Lebron is arguably the best player in the game. Rose isnt. Not near it. After 7yrs he might be arguable but the fact will remain after Rose gets 7yrs in? Bron would still be at the top barring any significant injuries. All he has to work on is his low post game. Other than that? Guy is unstoppable offensively and a triple double threat nightly. What Rose is doing today Bron been there, done that. And again when Rose gets 7yrs under his belt Bron will still be top dawg.
:applause: May we close this thread.
Rose is not doing anything Lebron didn't do consistently during his tenure in cleveland.

[kabalcage]

LeBron is the superior physical specimen. I'd take him over every single human being to ever walk the earth to start my franchise in every sport.

[themurph]

see..... told u.....

next coming up...

"Rose or Jordan... who is better?"

this is just terrible.... how bout finding out who is better and who u would build around first WESTBROOK or ROSE

this overrating of rose.... is just getting sickening... what are they trying to do seriously???? we can see he aint even a top 10 player for **** sake in everybodys book.... and now u wanna compare him to the best player in the world?



Again...you are not a serious person...And it seems as though you lack basic reading fundamentals...Where in that article did you read anyone say that Rose was "better" than LeBron in terms of talent?

The answer? You can't find it...Hell, it was even pointed out that LeBron was the superior talent by both writers....The difference however was that Bucher made it known he would take Rose because of his leadership and ability to finish games....This has nothing to do with who is the greater talent...Because clearly Bron wins that argument...

The irony is much of the talk about Bron lacking the clutch gene while he was at Cleveland has been vastly overstated...He was the main reason why the Cavs reached the heights that they had reached from the playoffs to the Finals...However, the more he bricks game-winning 3's and the more he fails to come through when it really matters while in a Heat uniform, he proves his haters right...Which is a shame...Because Bron is a gifted player....

[Christofire]

Great debate this shows how it's not all about talent most potential and best stats.

Imo the leadership, work ethic, poise and fire rose possesses to win is more valuable than James talent. His talent has obivously not been enough to get him over the hump thus far. Potential is a word i''ve never liked, potential doesn;t count for anything unless you tap into it via great work ethic. LeBron James has never been a guy with a bryant, Wade, Durant, etc. type work ethic.

Brousard made the typical response you'd see from a james nut hugger excuses and STATS, but can never come up with a good answer for his short comings

[Meticode]

My answer will be determined by whoever wins a championship first.

[lilblingy]

Bron and its not even close

[Alg3rnon]

I'd take blake :rockon:

Jk

[jlip]

This debate actually has absolutely nothing to do with Rose. This is all about Lebron and the "Decision" fallout. Rose is simply the next player in the "Who can we get to replace Lebron as the face of the league" campaign that's been going on since July 8, 2010. During the summer it was Durant. He was the new sensation who was "leading Team USA to gold while Lebron was selling his soul." The same question was asked in the offseason, but it was about Durant and Lebron. Durant was supposed to be the new face, but he didn't pan out this season. Now the Bulls have the best record in the East. So Rose is filling that void.

Seriously, what "leadership" and building potential has Rose shown that Lebron hasn't. Are we forgetting that Lebron has led a team to the Finals and two subsequent 60 win seasons? He has never lost in the 1st round. Rose has finally had one season of all star caliber basketball, his 1st winning season, but hasn't even won a playoff series yet, but now he is a "proven leader". Okaaay? And trust me, I'm no Rose hater. We are both alumni of the University of Memphis. I want to see him succeed, but let's be real.

[Christofire]

Lol my man.

And id pick rose to build a team around. And this is the reason. James has been in the league 7 years. And has marginally improved his overall game. Rose every year has gotton better at something. Be it his jumpshot, his 3pt shooting, his decision making. Just think how good rose will be after 7 years in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if he developes a post game.

i've always been a fan of progression. It accentuates one's work ethic. Work ethic takes you far in this league. Jordan became the greatest more because of his will and desire to be the best with his work ethic than because of his talent. If jordan didnt have the work ethic he had he;d be dominique wilkins. Rose is definately inferior in regards to talent but the margin is not huge and i think his work ethic heart nad leader ship makes him more valuable to a team.

[XxSMSxX]

:lol @ this topic

[Lebron23]

Give me LeBron James. The guy has already lead his team in the NBA Finals, and LeBron also put up better numbers than Rose in the playoffs.

[donald_trump]

this is a slap in the face to true basketball fans that know one player is far superior to another. lebron over rose in this case.

i laugh at one of the analysts saying its close in talent... no its not. one player is far better than the other.

i really dont understand the hate some of you have for lebron. not a winner, not a leader, not strong mentally, not a closer, etc.
what does not a winner mean? hes still 26.
not a leader? than who is he being the loudest on the floor? and leading his team last season and the season before to the most wins in the nba. that sounds like a good leader to me. a floor general, as some may call. a leader leads his team to the most possible wins, and lebron has shown hes the best at it. not his fault the team collapses in the playoffs. at some point, a leader cant do much more.

and a better closer? the nerve of the guy lol. how many game winners has derrick rose got. seriously. non bulls fans, can you make a list, or seriously remember off the top of your head the last rose game winner? not being a douche, but i cant.

and not strong mentally? what is this based on. who honestly knows whats going on in his head. some of you act like you know each player since they were kids.

[24r2]

Give me LeBron James. The guy has already lead his team in the NBA Finals, and LeBron also put up better numbers than Rose in the playoffs.

^
and where did that get him????? :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So this is what ESPN has become? :lol

Obvious answer is obvious.

[Doranku]

I mean, the obvious answer to this question is Rose.

What would you rather have, a player who cares about nothing except winning and getting the best out of his team, or Check My Stats? :facepalm

So basic...

[Lebron23]

^
and where did that get him????? :oldlol:


Put Rose on the Cavaliers team, and they are going to be barely a playoffs team in the East.

[ballinhun8]

Rose is already farther along in three years then LBJ. He's exactly what you look for out of a number 1 pick.

The talent really isn't all that big as some of you think. Seriously, give Rose about 3 more inches in height and we'll be talking about basically the exact same player. Therrs a reason they call Rose the "LeBron of PG's".

[entropy35]

Where are the mods? Please delete these kinds of threads. It is obvious who everybody would choose.

[I'm Seriously]

Rose is already farther along in three years then LBJ. He's exactly what you look for out of a number 1 pick.

The talent really isn't all that big as some of you think. Seriously, give Rose about 3 more inches in height and we'll be talking about basically the exact same player. Therrs a reason they call Rose the "LeBron of PG's".

How so?

Lebron was putting up 31.4/6.6/7.0 on 56.8 TS% in his 3rd season.

notsureifserious about the actual question though.

[asdf1990]

Rose is already farther along in three years then LBJ. He's exactly what you look for out of a number 1 pick.

The talent really isn't all that big as some of you think. Seriously, give Rose about 3 more inches in height and we'll be talking about basically the exact same player. Therrs a reason they call Rose the "LeBron of PG's".

not sure if serious, lebron is a once in a lifetime talent like him or not, u will most likely never see another 6'8 250+ plus pound man have the vision/speed of a pg, scoring ability of an elite wing men, power of a power foward plus he can rebound and defend. We have a derrick rose clone in okc. I just don't see how this is even an argument. Derrick rose can only dream of putting up numbers lebron put up in his third season.

For people praising rose's work ethic, plz explain to me how u can be the the best player in the league for about 3-4 years without one.

[GOBB]

People really need to get off throwing out loyalty as one of the reasons they pick Derrick Rose. Lebron James in his 3rd season didnt "look" loyal? There is a reason why Cavs fans were upset at him leaving. And it wasnt all due to the display he put on national television. They too felt he was loyal and would never leave. If Derrick Rose isnt in a successful situation and he has an option to explore/test free agency? Why be naive to think he wouldnt consider it? He's only played 3 seasons in the NBA and right now things are going great. Even Kobe Bryant flirted with wanting to be out of L.A only until mgmt got on the good foot and got pieces to keep him happy.

This whole loyalty angle as if its a plus for Rose, negative for Bron is silly. No one was questioning Brons loyalty early in his career. Especially when he took Clevland to the NBA Finals in his 4th year.

[bingo123]

Ok, thats it. I really liked Rose last season and at the start of this one. Now i really wanna see him fail badly for 4-5 seasons. Than we will all see how loyal and how much of leader he is. Actually i dont wanna see this because of him, but because of all dikkrides and overreacting to things that have been done before him

[Bigsmoke]

ISH is really getting retarded

Rose > Lebron

but

Rose = Westbrook?

so that means Westbrook is better than Lebron now? :rolleyes:


As a die hard Bulls fan, I would build around Lebron without hesitation.

[Nash]

I mean, the obvious answer to this question is Rose.

What would you rather have, a player who cares about nothing except winning and getting the best out of his team, or Check My Stats? :facepalm

So basic...
Well this post is fail.

Lebron is the guy who cares about winning. And if he only cares about his stats and not winning as you are pointing out, don't you think he should have stayed with Cleveland cuz in Cleveland there wont be no Wade or Bosh to share all the touches with and his stats would have been so much better. Dude wants to win so badly that he left money on the table for it.

[Lucifer]

Derrick Rose.

Only jerkoffs like Lebron23 and purplechuck think lebron's a good teammate. he's a stat padding crack baby

[asdf1990]

ISH is really getting retarded

Rose > Lebron

but

Rose = Westbrook?

so that means Westbrook is better than Lebron now? :rolleyes:


As a die hard Bulls fan, I would build around Lebron before picking without hesitation.

in search of explanation.

[Bigsmoke]

Derrick Rose.

Only jerkoffs like Lebron23 and purplechuck think lebron's a good teammate. he's a stat padding crack baby

if Lebron only cared about stat then he would have just stayed in cleveland. Ask those guys in Cleveland if he was a better teammate. I'm sure they would know more than u

[kaiiu]

Derrick Rose.

Only jerkoffs like Lebron23 and purplechuck think lebron's a good teammate. he's a stat padding crack baby
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Chicago Brawls]

Cavaliers fans are awfully happy with their building block.

Cheated and ringless.

I'll go with Rose because he is not Lebron.

[asdf1990]

Cavaliers fans are awfully happy with their building block.

Cheated and ringless.

I'll go with Rose because he is not Lebron.

sometimes i just wish I could do this
http://www.freewebs.com/stfuguy/SlapComputer.gif

rose is also ringless and a first round virgin.

[BrentISballin]

As much as I like Rose, he is not on Lebron's level yet. This is getting ridiculous, people are forgetting how dominate Lbj is . That being said i'd take Lbj over Rose to build a team around.

[Lebron23]

Derrick Rose.

Only jerkoffs like Lebron23 and purplechuck think lebron's a good teammate. he's a stat padding crack baby


Heat are 2-1 againts the Bulls. Rose will never be as good as Prime LeBron.

[LA_Showtime]

Heat are 2-1 againts the Bulls. Rose will never be as good as Prime LeBron.

Wow. Considering there are like 5-6 players who are on prime LeBron's level that's not saying ANYTHING.

[derb2k2]

Lol. Reading that article was sort of like reading a glorified version of a thread on ISH.


yea. Thx for posting that article, but I won't even bother wasting my time with it. I haven't seen a more despicable question asked this NBA season. The over-reaction to Rose's MVP season is gross.

[derb2k2]

do some of you read what you post? my god the hate on ISH is out of control :facepalm

[greymatter]

He pulled the d8ck move during the off season dissing two major franchises (Bulls,Knicks) pisst off his home town...of course LA doesn't like him...so what you expect?

He now plays for a fan base that needs to fan up as well.....Miami is not a good NBA town.

You're whining because he didn't feel like playing for any of the three biggest cities? It's a diss by simpling choosing a different city? That's pretty much why any fan not from any of those three cities finds NY, LA, or Chi fans to be obnoxious b1tches.

Prepare to whine like a little whore when Dwight Howard either opts to stay in Orlando or play for whichever non-NY/LA/Chi team that has CP3 or Dwill.

[moe94]

Wow. Considering there are like 5-6 players who are on prime LeBron's level that's not saying ANYTHING.
First of all, 5-6 players in the history of the NBA and that's not saying anything? Really? Besides, it's much smaller than 5-6. Surely not Kobe.