Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[PleezeBelieve]

Props, Bulls fans. You all have a true superstar leader, who only wants to win and not chase fame.

Do you all realize what you have or would you be enticed to have the Queen on your tram in place of Rose?

[JohnnySic]

Fans might not. Team would in a second.

[pauk]

Props, Bulls fans. You all have a true superstar leader, who only wants to win and not chase fame.

Do you all realize what you have or would you be enticed to have the Queen on your tram in place of Rose?

NO... just no... all-star yes... superstar no....

as far as this question goes..... ARE YOU STUPID? ofcourse they wouldnt trade away derrick rose???? they are well to over his nuts right now..... but a GM would trade away that whole ****ing team for Lebron..........

[PleezeBelieve]

Fans might not. Team would in a second.
When you all learn James is not a leader and puts up empty stats? I learned he hard way.

[PleezeBelieve]

NO... just no... all-star yes... superstar no....

as far as this question goes..... ARE YOU STUPID? ofcourse they wouldnt trade away derrick rose???? they are well to over his nuts right now..... but a GM would trade away that whole ****ing team for Lebron..........
Bulls > Heat

So why would they trade Rose for James again?

[kidachi]

First of all, fans don't trade players.. GMs/executives do..

anyway.. to answer it..

For pride, I think they wouldn't.. but they'd might eventually give in.. I think Rose is a great player.. and he's the MVP this season.. but we all know LeBron (though he underachieved this year in terms of being the leader) is the better player..

you might think otherwise because of your dislike to LeBron.. but you know in the back of your mind that he is...

[Glide2keva]

Yeah, because lebron = championships. :rolleyes:

[PleezeBelieve]

First of all, fans don't trade players.. GMs/executives do..

anyway.. to answer it..

For pride, I think they wouldn't.. but they'd might eventually give in.. I think Rose is a great player.. and he's the MVP this season.. but we all know LeBron (though he underachieved this year in terms of being the leader) is the better player..

you might think otherwise because of your dislike to LeBron.. but you know in the back of your mind that he is...
Unless you care about PER or having as many players as possible who speak in third-person, I'm not understanding why you would trade Rose for James.

James has been exposed this year, homie.

Fact.

Now its to the point you have to factor age + potential, and that's if you need to go that far to validate not making a deal that shouldn't be done from the get go.

[PleezeBelieve]

The Bulls are better than the Heat so that only justifies not making an idiotic trade like Rose for James.

Stop focusing on fantasy basketball stats and watch the games. Rose has turned it up this year. His competitive drive is already more evident than at any point of James career.

[DMAVS41]

It wouldn't make sense to trade Lebron for Rose straight up. Rose fits much better on the bulls team and he's 4 years younger.

Any trade would have to be Deng and Rose for Lebron and a guard. I don't think the Bulls would ever consider that.

What good is Deng and Lebron on the same team?

[jasonresno]

Why would we? Bulls > Heat. Rose is our superstar. Home town hero. Rookie of the Year, 2x All Star, and about to be the league MVP in his 3rd season.

Nope. Management wouldn't either.

[kidachi]

Unless you care about PER or having as many players as possible who speak in third-person, I'm not understanding why you would trade Rose for James.

James has been exposed this year, homie.

Fact.

Now its to the point you have to factor age + potential, and that's if you need to go that far to validate not making a deal that shouldn't be done from the get go.


to me that PER is bullshit.

if they're both unknowns and we all know don't know their personality whatsoever except how they play... it's a general consensus.. LeBron will be picked first..

Slashing, athleticism, scoring ability, passing, defense, aggressiveness.. all that.. they have that..

BUT..

Bron is bigger.. thus making you create more mismatches.. He's bigger and stronger than SFs and he's faster than PFs..

We dislike LeBron (yes, it includes me, a heat fan) because of the personality.. the conceitedness, cockiness, the stereotype a-hole..
But it's outside of basketball..

[jasonresno]

to me that PER is bullshit.

if they're both unknowns and we all know don't know their personality whatsoever except how they play... it's a general consensus.. LeBron will be picked first..

Slashing, athleticism, scoring ability, passing, defense, aggressiveness.. all that.. they have that..

BUT..

Bron is bigger.. thus making you create more mismatches.. He's bigger and stronger than SFs and he's faster than PFs..

We dislike LeBron (yes, it includes me, a heat fan) because of the personality.. the conceitedness, cockiness, the stereotype a-hole..
But it's outside of basketball..
All that super talent, great PER rating has gotten LBJ quite a few rings eh?

The fans want winners. Rose might have inferior stats, but he's a winner. And you'll see this postseason.

[Harion]

just last summer, Bulls were courting Lebron, so :confusedshrug:

[jasonresno]

just last summer, Bulls were courting Lebron, so :confusedshrug
but not with the intent to deal rose.

[All Net]

Until lebron proves he is a winner why would they?

[kidachi]

All that super talent, great PER rating has gotten LBJ quite a few rings eh?

that's why I said it's BS..

[cteach111]

it depends on how much you value intangibles i guess. Rose seems to have them in spades.

In terms of talent, its Lebron clearly.. but you really do have to think very hard before pulling off a trade like this. There's a lot of posters on here that question Lebron's character at 26 years old and yet.. almost everyone on here knows what Rose is all about.

Just to play devil's advocate though.. Lebron was playing like this in his breakout season in 2009. I have never seen him as focused since that season. So, if the Bulls lose this year, how will Rose respond? Will he keep charging at full speed like this year or will he take a step back?

[jasonresno]

it depends on how much you value intangibles i guess. Rose seems to have them in spades.

In terms of talent, its Lebron clearly.. but you really do have to think very hard before pulling off a trade like this. There's a lot of posters on here that question Lebron's character at 26 years old and yet.. almost everyone on here knows what Rose is all about.

Just to play devil's advocate though.. Lebron was playing like this in his breakout season in 2009. I have never seen him as focused since that season. So, if the Bulls lose this year, how will Rose respond? Will he keep charging at full speed like this year or will he take a step back?
If the Bulls don't make it to the Finals this year, they'll win the next three. That's the kind of player Rose is.

[Jordan23GOAT]

Well with the fact that Lebron can run point. The team would do it right away. That's the scary part. I'm glad that my fellow fans wouldn't.

[asdf1990]

Until lebron proves he is a winner why would they?

how the hell has rose proven his a winner?

[DMAVS41]

how the hell has rose proven his a winner?

He hasn't.

And i still LOL at the idea that Lebron hasn't proven he's a winner. Look what he did in Cleveland. He turned a 17 win team into a finals team, the team that came closest to beating the future champs in 08, and then two back to back 60 plus win seasons.

All while not having a good 2nd option or a quality team.

No superstar perimeter player has ever won anything with a team comparable to those Cavs.

Only Hakeem and Duncan have won titles with comparable talent. Thats it.

[asdf1990]

If the Bulls don't make it to the Finals this year, they'll win the next three. That's the kind of player Rose is.

lol wtf? they dont win this year but thy will win the next three lol.

change ur name to joyner. jr

[kidachi]

This is like asking if you would trade Wade for Kobe in 06..

Wade was the up and coming superstar and Kobe is THE SUPERSTAR.. but was still under criticism.. and hasn't proven anything individually.. in terms of winning.


I know you would bring up Kobe's 3 rings at that time..

But him and LeBron had diff. situations.. with all due respect to Kobe..

[TheTruth11]

No..... not a chance.

And this question was posed to Bulls fans on the Bulls board back when Lebron was a free agent. The question asked, "would you trade DRose for Lebron straight up". And overwhelmingly the response was "NO". And from what I recall, that sentiment was unanimous - not a single person wanted that trade.

Quite simply: Drose is a winner.

Rose has has won big at every level. Dude won 4 grade school championships, a HS freshman championship and then "back to back" state championships in HS. Then took Memphis to the championship game. And now what he is doing for the Bulls speaks for itself.

Bron is a great player but no, we keep Rose.

...

[Go Getter]

Rose.


Lebron is not the right fit for Chicago ( the organization and the city).

[game385]

Until lebron proves he is a winner why would they?

Ditto. + Rose is younger

[asdf1990]

No..... not a chance.

And this question was posed to Bulls fans on the Bulls board back when Lebron was a free agent. The question asked, "would you trade DRose for Lebron straight up". And overwhelmingly the response was "NO". And from what I recall, that sentiment was unanimous - not a single person wanted that trade.

Quite simply: Drose is a winner.

Rose has has won big at every level. Dude won 4 grade school championships, a freshman championship and then back to back championships in HS. Then took Memphis to the championship game. And now what he is doing for the Bulls speaks for itself.

Bron is a great player but no, we keep Rose.

i love the double standard, lebron has 3 hs state titles, his led his team to the nba finals but supposedly his not a winner, while mr. rose led his team to a championship game in the ncaa and he is a winner. lets not act like lebron hasn't done what rose is doing with a crappier roster.

[knickscity]

just last summer, Bulls were courting Lebron, so :confusedshrug::facepalm

Yeah, to pair him up WITH Rose, not replace Rose.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

fuclk no, Rose has a killer instict, hes clutch, winner, team player, humble, younger.

LeBrons a choker, loser, weak mentality, stat padder :hammerhead:

[InfiniteBaskets]

i love the double standard, lebron has 3 hs state titles, his led his team to the nba finals but supposedly his not a winner, while mr. rose led his team to a championship game in the ncaa and he is a winner. lets not act like lebron hasn't done what rose is doing with a crappier roster.

NCAA Finals > NBA Finals apparently.

[donald_trump]

rose is clearly a winner and lebron isnt. because you know how lebrons been to the finals and all and rose hasnt gotten out of the first round. clearly hes just more of a winner.

so yeah, defs rose because hes a winner...

[Alamo]

Not a bulls fan, but I wouldn't trade a rising superstar for a proven playoff choker.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

People saying LBJ hasn't won shit, neither has Rose :confusedshrug: James has lead a VERY weak team out of an admittedly weak East, Rose might get out of the East with a far stronger team.

[game385]

People saying LBJ hasn't won shit, neither has Rose :confusedshrug: James has lead a VERY weak team out of an admittedly weak East, Rose might get out of the East with a far stronger team.

Fixed: in a much stronger Eastern Conference.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Fixed: In a much stronger Eastern Conference.

Yeah, the point is, he still hasn't done it yet.

[donald_trump]

Fixed: in a much stronger Eastern Conference.

fixed: with a far stronger team.

[24r2]

He hasn't.

And i still LOL at the idea that Lebron hasn't proven he's a winner. Look what he did in Cleveland. He turned a 17 win team into a finals team, the team that came closest to beating the future champs in 08, and then two back to back 60 plus win seasons.

All while not having a good 2nd option or a quality team.

No superstar perimeter player has ever won anything with a team comparable to those Cavs.

Only Hakeem and Duncan have won titles with comparable talent. Thats it.


well lebron to me is the best basketball player in the world today but come on man stop saying the guy's a winner,

[game385]

What happened to the unwaivering confidence of the bandwagon Heat fans? Weren't they supposed to win, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7etc...NBA Championships.

[donald_trump]

What happened to the unwaivering confidence of the bandwagon Heat fans? Weren't they supposed to win, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7etc...NBA Championships.

where did heat fans state their confidence in this team was any lower at any point in this thread?

[pmj]

What a dumb thread. Lebron is better, but of course they wouldn't trade him.

For one, Rose is WAAYY cheaper. A straight up LBJ for Rose maybe, but that wouldn't work under the cap, so you'd have to include more (good) members of your team for more (bad) members of the Heat, to make it work money-wise.

Two, Rose is way younger. You have a younger, cheaper, player who's about to win MVP, and the Bulls are the #1 seed. Yes the organization wants to win, but pro sports are a business. If you are already providing your fan with a winning team that has a chance to win it all, and you're selling out every game, go with the younger player. You make money longer most likely. On top of that, he's a hometown player, why risk pissing off your fanbase (aka your $$$).

Three, Rose is arguably getting himself into the top 5 convo after this year. The talent difference is there, but not large enough to risk screwing up something that is already working. Chicago lucked out getting the #1 pick a few years ago, due to no GM skills of their own, be happy that luck is working out, dont pull a Danny Ainge and screw it up.

[kumquat]

I think it's more a case of Lebron being a proven choker more than anything else.

[bluechox2]

rose with a team >>>>>>>>>lebron with a team
lebron >>>>rose - one on one

[guy]

Not a chance. Rose is way too loved by the fans, teammates, and coaches. Trading away Rose would be the Celtics trading away Perkins x 1000 as far as the reaction to it goes.

Not to mention the following:

He's younger.

He doesn't care about anything but basketball and winning, unlike Lebron who does care too much about his stats and too much off the court stuff like his "brand".

If the Bulls want him, he'll be there for the rest of his career, which could be 10-15 years. If the Bulls don't win enough in the 4-5 years, good chance Lebron leaves. If he didn't have a problem leaving Cleveland after winning 60 games for back to back seasons, he'd have less of a problem leaving a team that wasn't his hometown and was traded to.

Its not like trading Rose for Lebron makes this team so much better, if better at all. You don't get much better then a title contender winning 60 games and the no. 1 seed with a bunch of injuries to some of your best players. Lebron won't make this team that much, if better at all, to make up for all those reasons I've mentioned above.

[DMAVS41]

well lebron to me is the best basketball player in the world today but come on man stop saying the guy's a winner,

so MJ wasn't a winner for his first 6 years?

Shaq for his first 8?

Hakeem for his first 10?

stay consistent and you look like a fool.

I love how Hakeem would be considered a loser on this board for his first ten years.

How about stockton and malone? career losers?

LOL

[PJR]

Man, I really can't wait for the playoffs. It's going to reveal so much. :oldlol:

[KelticForce1349]

Why would we? Bulls > Heat. Rose is our superstar. Home town hero. Rookie of the Year, 2x All Star, and about to be the league MVP in his 3rd season.

Nope. Management wouldn't either.


Exactly. Lebron is incredible for sure, but so is derrick Rose. People talk about the potential of LBJ and how much he may still improve, but it is more than fair to be saying the exact same thing about derrick right now.

Derrick Rose may be the best player in the league in one or two years, why would the Bulls management give up on such a young player? Derrick is the hometown hero and his performance on the court fully warrants giving him the benefit of the doubt over Lebron.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Not a chance. Rose is way too loved by the fans, teammates, and coaches. Trading away Rose would be the Celtics trading away Perkins x 1000 as far as the reaction to it goes.

Not to mention the following:

He's younger.

He doesn't care about anything but basketball and winning, unlike Lebron who does care too much about his stats and too much off the court stuff like his "brand".

If the Bulls want him, he'll be there for the rest of his career, which could be 10-15 years. If the Bulls don't win enough in the 4-5 years, good chance Lebron leaves. If he didn't have a problem leaving Cleveland after winning 60 games for back to back seasons, he'd have less of a problem leaving a team that wasn't his hometown and was traded to.

Its not like trading Rose for Lebron makes this team so much better, if better at all. You don't get much better then a title contender winning 60 games and the no. 1 seed with a bunch of injuries to some of your best players. Lebron won't make this team that much, if better at all, to make up for all those reasons I've mentioned above.

Exactly, every team would love to have Rose at this point, bulls are very lucky

[Eat Like A Bosh]

LeBron might be the better individual player, but people probably like Rose better.
The thing with LeBron is all mental, he doesn't have mental toughness to actually come through in the stretch. That's why having someone else like Dwyane Wade to lead him is huge.

I don't think Bulls Fans or most people would do this trade, just because of the hatred of LeBron. But if it's a straight up trade, GMs might just do it.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Exactly. Lebron is incredible for sure, but so is derrick Rose. People talk about the potential of LBJ and how much he may still improve, but it is more than fair to be saying the exact same thing about derrick right now.

Derrick Rose may be the best player in the league in one or two years, why would the Bulls management give up on such a young player? Derrick is the hometown hero and his performance on the court fully warrants giving him the benefit of the doubt over Lebron.

And Rose avging more blocks than LeBron this season being 6 inches shorter

[PleezeBelieve]

People bringing up LeBron doing more with less in Cleveland like The Bulls haven't pwned him as a Heat.

Brilliant.

[Christofire]

to me that PER is bullshit.

if they're both unknowns and we all know don't know their personality whatsoever except how they play... it's a general consensus.. LeBron will be picked first..

Slashing, athleticism, scoring ability, passing, defense, aggressiveness.. all that.. they have that..

BUT..

Bron is bigger.. thus making you create more mismatches.. He's bigger and stronger than SFs and he's faster than PFs..

We dislike LeBron (yes, it includes me, a heat fan) because of the personality.. the conceitedness, cockiness, the stereotype a-hole..
But it's outside of basketball..

But he quits and chokes when games matter most. James is all of that, but at the end of the day I rather retain the lesser player overall for the mere fact that he is better when it matters. It's not about being the best in regular season it's about being the best when it matters. This is one of the main reasons people will never give leBron the nod over bryant. James is great when there's nothing at stake

[Christofire]

People bringing up LeBron doing more with less in Cleveland like The Bulls haven't pwned him as a Heat.

Brilliant.

now he's doing less with more....

[kaiiu]

Great thread PB. Its funny how ppl are saying Lebron has been to the finals and rose ain't been to the second round. Lebron had the easiest path to the finals EVER. Play the Wizards in the first round WITHOUT Arenas anf Butler. Play the shitty Nets counting on VC. Play the over the hill pistons without Ben Wallace. The Pistons was only a 53 win team which is s Average team in the western conference. Not to mention he didn't play great that series. Then he was EXPOSED vs the Spurs. While Drose has played 2 60 win teams in the first round and played better vs them than Lebron has vs good teams.

Playoff Rose> Playoff Lebron

[DMAVS41]

Well.

Seen this all before. I like Rose, but his fans will ultimately make me not like him as much as I do now. The over-rating is already out of control.

Rose is nowhere near the player Lebron is yet.....same with Wade.

This is going to be Kobe all over again.
:facepalm

[chips93]

the bulls with lebron would be much better. lebron would suit chicago perfectly, two guys who can get their own shot from time to time in boozer and deng, and noah, and boozer can finish well around the rim off of LBJ pick and rolls, and deng, korver can space the floor, obviously the bulls would need a replacement pg tho

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Great thread PB. Its funny how ppl are saying Lebron has been to the finals and rose ain't been to the second round. Lebron had the easiest path to the finals EVER. Play the Wizards in the first round WITHOUT Arenas anf Butler. Play the shitty Nets counting on VC. Play the over the hill pistons without Ben Wallace. The Pistons was only a 53 win team which is s Average team in the western conference. Not to mention he didn't play great that series. Then he was EXPOSED vs the Spurs. While Drose has played 2 60 win teams in the first round and played better vs them than Lebron has vs good teams.

Playoff Rose> Playoff Lebron

LeBron had the biggest choke performance of all time during last years playoffs

[olddangerfield]

Unless you care about PER or having as many players as possible who speak in third-person, I'm not understanding why you would trade Rose for James.

James has been exposed this year, homie.

Fact.

Now its to the point you have to factor age + potential, and that's if you need to go that far to validate not making a deal that shouldn't be done from the get go.
lol nice. It's like this guy's thoughts have done a complete 180. I could never imagine him posting something about this about Lebron last year.

[Go Getter]

the bulls with lebron would be much better. lebron would suit chicago perfectly, two guys who can get their own shot from time to time in boozer and deng, and noah, and boozer can finish well around the rim off of LBJ pick and rolls, and deng, korver can space the floor, obviously the bulls would need a replacement pg tho

This right here tells me you don't watch Bulls basketball.

Deng has NEVER been good at getting his own shot off, as well as Boozer.

Counting on them to produce their OWN offense is not a logical expectation.

[YouCallILose]

LeBron is better than Rose at literally every facet of the game except free throw shooting. Taking away the decision, of course they do and don't even think about it.

[Go Getter]

LeBron is better than Rose at literally every facet of the game except free throw shooting. Taking away the decision, of course they do and don't even think about it.


Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.

[Bigsmoke]

Rose and Deng > Lebron and CJ Watson

[az00m]

Lebron is far better, but I wouldn't say yes.

But the gm's would give in.

People like lebron come around every 10-15 years. people like rose come around every 2-3 years.

[YouCallILose]

Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.

how am i hating? because i believe lebron is a better player/would have a greater impact on chicago? im sorry but derrick rose is not the best player in the nba, if that makes me a hater then just lol

[Go Getter]

Lebron is far better, but I wouldn't say yes.

But the gm's would give in.


Pax wants nothing to do with Lebron's whiny, entourage having, talcum powder throwing, headband wearing, corny dancing ass.

:oldlol:

We are one or two players away from being a BEAST team......Lebron's talents aren't needed in Chicago.

[yeaaaman]

People should just calm down and let Rose pave his own path. Last year I thought Durant was insanely overrated since I was hearing about how he was going to be the best player in the NBA this year, the front-runner for MVP etc. Now, Rose is having an amazing season, and is surely the MVP, but that doesn't make him the best player in the NBA, the best player to build around, untradeable, etc.

People getting overly excited about one amazing season, before that season has come to an end, are just dramatically raising the expectations people, themselves included, will have for him. If he doesn't live up to these continually raising expectations, its going to raise the likelihood that people will hate on him, call him overrated, and undervalue him as a player because they will be comparing him to absurd expectations. It shouldn't upset anyone if it has been brought up that Rose has never been out of the first round, because he hasn't. Fortunately he can change that this year, but he doesn't have to do it all in one year, because if or when he doesn't, a lot of people are going to be pretty disappointed.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Rose is way better than Durant at literally every facet of the game except free throw shooting.

FIXED. You're Welcome.

[game385]

LeBron is better than Rose at literally every facet of the game except free throw shooting. Taking away the decision, of course they do and don't even think about it.

I'd argue that Rose is now a better outside shooter. More likeable and marketable in Chicago esp given that he's the "hometown kid." Not to mention younger.

I'll give you that James is overall a better player. Even the most hardcore Bulls fans will admit that but No way in hell we'd support a trade of Rose for LeBron. Not to mention the off court personality and ego issues... Bulls management wouldn't do it and Bulls fans damn sure wouldn't support it. This is so f*ckin stupid even talkin about :facepalm

[YouCallILose]

FIXED. You're Welcome.

a lot of butthurt in this post :roll:

can't even stay on topic

im also loving the fact that durant is a better scorer, shooter, rebounder, shot blocker, and arguably a better defender.

[chips93]

This right here tells me you don't watch Bulls basketball.

Deng has NEVER been good at getting his own shot off, as well as Boozer.

Counting on them to produce their OWN offense is not a logical expectation.


deng and boozer are absolutely vialbe options on offense. i dont mean that either will ever win you a game single handedly, i mean that you can run a play for them and get a decent possession out of it. deng can get a good look curling off of a down screen, and boozer on the low block or rolling to the low basket is a very viable offensive possession.

[yeaaaman]

Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.

So if you don't think Derrick Rose is better than Lebron, you are hating? Got it.

[Go Getter]

how am i hating? because i believe lebron is a better player/would have a greater impact on chicago? im sorry but derrick rose is not the best player in the nba, if that makes me a hater then just lol


He doesn't have to be the best player, just the best FIT.

-Rose is a hometown kid, sells more jerseys.
-Rose is cheaper and we can count on him being more honest than Lebron concerning his contract wants/needs
-Rose is a better teammate, he never complains about his help like Lebron did
-The Bulls beat the Heat three times this year and Rose was the standout player in the last game
-Rose has not yet reached his potential....Bron is great, but topping off
-Lebron has a questionable heart while Rose has proven to be lion-hearted up until now.
-Rose has led us to the #1 seed this year....."if it ain't broke don't fix it just relax and let it float; don't rock the boat baby!"

[Go Getter]

deng and boozer are absolutely vialbe options on offense. i dont mean that either will ever win you a game single handedly, i mean that you can run a play for them and get a decent possession out of it. deng can get a good look curling off of a down screen, and boozer on the low block or rolling to the low basket is a very viable offensive possession.


You said "create their own shot" not "have plays run for."

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Lebron is far better, but I wouldn't say yes.

But the gm's would give in.

People like lebron come around every 10-15 years. people like rose come around every 2-3 years.

You have mixed around. Players with LeBrons weak mentality and choking skills come around every 2-3 years.

Players like Rose with killer mentality, hard work ethic, dedication to the game come every 10-15 years. Before Rose was Kobe and before Kobe was Jordan.

With that said, no way bulls would trade Rose for leBron

[Go Getter]

So if you don't think Derrick Rose is better than Lebron, you are hating? Got it.
I'm saying that Lebron is not better than Rose in every facet of the game...followmenowsee.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

a lot of butthurt in this post :roll:

can't even stay on topic

im also loving the fact that durant is a better scorer, shooter, rebounder, shot blocker, and arguably a better defender.

Is that a joke? haha Rose is the best point gaurd defensively in the league and wayyyyyyy better than durant that its not even close. Durant cant play defense to save his life

[YouCallILose]

I'm saying that Lebron is not better than Rose in every facet of the game...followmenowsee.

What is Rose better at? LeBron led a team of scrubs to 61 and 66 wins and has been to the Finals. Rose has never won a playoff series and might not reach 61 wins with one of if not the best supporting cast in the NBA

[chips93]

You said "create their own shot" not "have plays run for."


:rolleyes: , the focal point of an offensive possession. if a guy can get a shot off of an iso with no help, its just as useful as a guy who can get a good shot off, off of a screen.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

What is Rose better at? LeBron led a team of scrubs to 61 and 66 wins and has been to the Finals. Rose has never won a playoff series and might not reach 61 wins with one of if not the best supporting cast in the NBA

Too bad your boy durant disappears in the playoffs :roll: :roll:

[Go Getter]

People getting overly excited about one amazing season.


Actually Rose had a pretty good rookie season and followed that up with a stellar sophomore effort.

He's on his way to a HOF career (there's A LOT OF WORK to do before considering that but it IS a realistic outcome if he continues to get better and work hard).

Chicago is a big basketball town and we traded away three very promising guards and two great backups because of Derrick Rose.

He, along with Noah and Deng, has turned the franchise around and Bull's fans are happy about that.

Haters gonna hate but I don't care

:party:

I hope we at least take another step towards the conference finals...making it to the ECF would be a step forward in my book and anything else would be kind of disappointing.

[donald_trump]

Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.

yes - has actually led his team past the first round
better teammate? what does that entail? hes a better player and is more impactful, so yes, hes a better teammate by that definition.
a better ball handler? yes. now that rose is handling the ball like lebron was his turnover numbers have gone up.
better midrange game? by a mile. your boy fell in love with the 3pt shot. stats back this up as well.

wants to win more? plays harder? how are you judging this exactly?
more loyal to the organization? based on what? the organization wasnt loyal to lebron. all those years and not a single decent player was brought to him to play alongside. the fact he didnt leave after his first contract is amazing considering he watched a peer of his win a title when a gm clearly put together a contending team for him in dwyane wade.

less baggage? yeah, you clearly know everything about nba players. :facepalm

[Go Getter]

the bulls with lebron would be much better. lebron would suit chicago perfectly, two guys who can get their own shot from time to time in boozer and deng, and noah, and boozer can finish well around the rim off of LBJ pick and rolls, and deng, korver can space the floor, obviously the bulls would need a replacement pg tho


YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.

[donald_trump]

Is that a joke? haha Rose is the best point gaurd defensively in the league

yep, its gotten to kobe level.

wouldnt surprise me if this no defense playing hack started getting all defensive teams soon. hell even this year wouldnt be shocking.

i'd literally take every starting pg in the league over rose on the defensive end and i'd even think real hard about taking him over nash.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So I guess people would want Rose over Wade as well:facepalm

[donald_trump]

YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.

you realize that deng is getting the ball assisted to him at a very similar rate to say dirk nowitzki this year, who many consider amazing at creating his own shot.

or even that of carmelo a few years ago at denver. :oldlol:

to say he can't create his own shot is a joke. keep riding that d rose diick though.

[Go Getter]

less baggage? yeah, you clearly know everything about nba players. :facepalm


You must not have seen the news today, Lebron's mom is all over it.

Lebron has a big press conference for his FA signing.

Lebron HAS TO have jobs and flights for his large entourage (Derrick has his brothers).

Lebron skips press conferences to go cry on the team bus or plane after tough losses.

Lebron goes on ESPN dancing in a gay "World Class Wrecking Crew" outfit looking mad dumb.

:rolleyes:

I don't have to know everything about Lebron and Rose to know that Rose is less maintenence and has less baggage....it's pretty evident.

[chips93]

YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.

i was wring, i did mean to say you can run a play for either of them but to me they are in practice the same thing.
there is no difference tho, a guy running off of screens, or getting an entry pass into the low block isnt help is it? how is a guy who can score off of an iso any different to a guy who can score off a curl?

[Kellogs4toniee]

This is my honest opinion as a life-long Bulls fan, as someone who always put the organization above any one player, even Michael Jordan.

Given all the humility, loyalty, and characteristics Derrick Rose has shown as a human being outside of the basketball court, mixed with the fact that he's improved every single year and everything points to him having the same drive that players like Kobe and Jordan had, I would honestly not trade him for someone like Lebron given all that has happened last summer through the decision, the show-boating and dancing, all the other stories and events that portray Lebron as more of a man-child then mature male adult.

That's JUST my personal opinion though. If someone were to say they would trade Rose for Lebron, that would make perfect sense to me too. And I wouldn't chide them about it.

[Go Getter]

you realize that deng is getting the ball assisted to him at a very similar rate to say dirk nowitzki this year, who many consider amazing at creating his own shot.

or even that of carmelo a few years ago at denver. :oldlol:

to say he can't create his own shot is a joke. keep riding that d rose diick though.


Deng cannot creat off the dribble well.

Not saying he can't but it is definietly not a strength...it could be considered a weakness.


When we had Deng, Gordon, Kirk on the perimeter we struggled to score.


In comes this rookie and all of a sudden our offense looks TONS better.


Call it what you want but real recognize real...

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron should be thanking Derrick Rose for helping him get the 2nd seed in the East if they can get the job done against the Bobcats.

[Go Getter]

i was wring, i did mean to say you can run a play for either of them but to me they are in practice the same thing.
there is no difference tho, a guy running off of screens, or getting an entry pass into the low block isnt help is it? how is a guy who can score off of an iso any different to a guy who can score off a curl?


No, it is not the same thing. Guys who you can iso for the last play of the game are max contract guys. IF you could iso Deng and he could get off a decent shot he would be in the upper echelon of SFs instead of just a good one.

[Go Getter]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So I guess people would want Rose over Wade as well:facepalm


Hell yeah. Rose is younger and has a better injury history.

No is saying the better PLAYER...it's the BETTER FIT.

Wade is damn near 30 homie.

[donald_trump]

Deng cannot creat off the dribble well.

Not saying he can't but it is definietly not a strength...it could be considered a weakness.


When we had Deng, Gordon, Kirk on the perimeter we struggled to score.


In comes this rookie and all of a sudden our offense looks TONS better.


Call it what you want but real recognize real...

first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.

[Bigsmoke]

Hell yeah. Rose is younger and has a better injury history.

No is saying the better PLAYER...it's the BETTER FIT.

Wade is damn near 30 homie.

he's a human crash dummy at that.

someone thats 30 that playing that reckless still isnt gonna give u a lot more epic years.

[Go Getter]

first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.
Yeah I was SO serious dog. Like I'm here really trying to be serious with an ISH troll.:rolleyes:

Deng HAS struggled to score the ball FOOL.

You haven't followed the Bull's half as much as I have in the past 15 years.

I like how you totally disregarded the post you quoted and critiqued my slang though.

Enough of this.

No use in talking to you at all.

[DMAVS41]

first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.

its reached Kobe level. now Rose is making Deng. I love it.

Deng in 07:

19 points 7 boards 3 assists in 37.5 minutes. 56%ts 52%efg

Deng in 11:

18 points 6 boards 3 assists in 39 minutes. 55% ts 51%efg

Yep. Rose made Deng. Deng sucks without Rose. LOL

And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting and LOL at Rose making Deng.

[chips93]

No, it is not the same thing. Guys who you can iso for the last play of the game are max contract guys. IF you could iso Deng and he could get off a decent shot he would be in the upper echelon of SFs instead of just a good one.


tbh thats a good point that i hadnt considered, but for the first 3 quarters of a game they are the same

[Go Getter]

its reached Kobe level. now Rose is making Deng. I love it.

Deng in 07:

19 points 7 boards 3 assists in 37.5 minutes. 56%ts 52%efg

Deng in 11:

18 points 6 boards 3 assists in 39 minutes. 55% ts 51%efg

Yep. Rose made Deng. Deng sucks without Rose. LOL


You love it because you and Rose haters are trying once again to skew an argument for justifying your loathesome feelings for Chicago's very own.

No one said Rose MADE Deng.

The issue was that Deng cannot create his own shot.

Earlier in his career and sometimes even now, it is easy for him to have a very silent game.

16-19 points is cool, but it can be low impact if it is not when your team really needs it.

You understand that by watching games.

Deng is having his second best season of his career, arguably his best all around.

You can attribute that to Thibs, Rose, Gar, Pax, his girlfriend's new keggel exercise class...I don't give a ****.

[Go Getter]

tbh thats a good point that i hadnt considered, but for the first 3 quarters of a game they are the same


The end of shot clocks.

Broken down plays.

Killing runs.

Taking advantage of mismatches.






It's not just at the end of games though.

[chips93]

And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting

it rewards him for making a shot that counts for 3 instead of 2. 3 is bigger than 2. that is why it is weighted as such. TS% makes perfect sense.

[DMAVS41]

You love it because you and Rose haters are trying once again to skew an argument for justifying your loathesome feelings for Chicago's very own.

No one said Rose MADE Deng.

The issue was that Deng cannot create his own shot.

Earlier in his career and sometimes even now, it is easy for him to have a very silent game.

16-19 points is cool, but it can be low impact if it is not when your team really needs it.

You understand that by watching games.

Deng is having his second best season of his career, arguably his best all around.

You can attribute that to Thibs, Rose, Gar, Pax, his girlfriend's new keggel exercise class...I don't give a ****.

Nah, Deng is just like every other player in the league scoring around 18 points. Deng's value comes from him being a utility player that can play good defense, rebound, and score when you need it. He absolutely can get his own shot, but that isn't even relevant. He scores a lot of his points without being a ball stopper. That is a huge positive. So you see invisible and I see a lamar odom type player that can put up great numbers without having a lot of plays run for him.

Deng is about as good of a third option as there is in the league and is a great all around player in that role.

He's not having the best year of his career. That would be 07 actually. Good effort.

[chips93]

The end of shot clocks.

Broken down plays.

Killing runs.

Taking advantage of mismatches.






It's not just at the end of games though.


again good point, things i hadnt considered, i would disagree with the bolded tho. and broken down play is essentially the same as shot clock situation.

[DMAVS41]

it rewards him for making a shot that counts for 3 instead of 2. 3 is bigger than 2. that is why it is weighted as such. TS% makes perfect sense.

actually it doesn't. look at the numbers. its ridiculous that the ts% would be that close from 07 to this year.

its a flawed stat. its ok, but its much better to look at the raw numbers.

in 07 Deng took almost no threes. he missed a lot less shots and shot better from the ft line.

raw data is always better.

[acbay91]

lol rose is good but hes being overhyped in this thread.

both lebron and wade are better than rose. i'd gladly take either of them for rose at this point.

lebrons a choker? since when is is a 29-8-8 average in the playoffs choking? its not his fault anthony parker and mo williams combined for 8 points in big games here and there haha

66 wins, and 61 wins with idiots like mo williams and a terrible coach like mike brown. nuff said

bulls wont make it past round 2. the heat are winning the playoffs 16-4

[chazzy]

And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting and LOL at Rose making Deng.
And his TS% is lower this year... so what's your point?

[DMAVS41]

And his TS% is lower this year... so what's your point?

Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%, but its much better to look at the raw data.

Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL

[chips93]

actually it doesn't. look at the numbers. its ridiculous that the ts% would be that close from 07 to this year.

its a flawed stat. its ok, but its much better to look at the raw numbers.

in 07 Deng took almost no threes. he missed a lot less shots and shot better from the ft line.

raw data is always better.

ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.

[guy]

Not a chance. Rose is way too loved by the fans, teammates, and coaches. Trading away Rose would be the Celtics trading away Perkins x 1000 as far as the reaction to it goes.

Not to mention the following:

He's younger.

He doesn't care about anything but basketball and winning, unlike Lebron who does care too much about his stats and too much off the court stuff like his "brand".

If the Bulls want him, he'll be there for the rest of his career, which could be 10-15 years. If the Bulls don't win enough in the 4-5 years, good chance Lebron leaves. If he didn't have a problem leaving Cleveland after winning 60 games for back to back seasons, he'd have less of a problem leaving a team that wasn't his hometown and was traded to.

Its not like trading Rose for Lebron makes this team so much better, if better at all. You don't get much better then a title contender winning 60 games and the no. 1 seed with a bunch of injuries to some of your best players. Lebron won't make this team that much, if better at all, to make up for all those reasons I've mentioned above.

Like I said, I don't think people are really saying Rose because they think he's better. Its the relationship he has with the community/team, his age, focus, loyalty, and the difference between the two not being large enough that is the reason.

[DMAVS41]

ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.

its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.

missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.

[Go Getter]

Nah, Deng is just like every other player in the league scoring around 18 points. Deng's value comes from him being a utility player that can play good defense, rebound, and score when you need it. He absolutely can get his own shot, but that isn't even relevant. He scores a lot of his points without being a ball stopper. That is a huge positive. So you see invisible and I see a lamar odom type player that can put up great numbers without having a lot of plays run for him.

Deng is about as good of a third option as there is in the league and is a great all around player in that role.

He's not having the best year of his career. That would be 07 actually. Good effort.
1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).

[DMAVS41]

1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disdappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).

He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. Now they can't get off anything without Rose?

LOL

The Bulls don't even have a top ten offense. You act like Rose is turning water into wine by with this team offensively.

[Crown&Coke]

the correct answer is no.

[chips93]

its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.

missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.


tbh i never really thought of it that way, but i still think ts% is very good. while a missed three could give up a fast break, a made three spaces the floor. i dont think it makes that big of a difference whether its a missed three or a missed two

[chazzy]

Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%,How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.

Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL
Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..

missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.
What does that have to do with how efficiently you score the ball? That's all that TS% tells you and should be used as

[Go Getter]

He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. Now they can't get off anything without Rose?

LOL
You just made that shit up out of your bat shit crazy mind.

I said nothing of the sort.

He needs SOMEONE to feed him the ball (not necesasrily Rose, no one is saying that only Rose can get him the ball BUT if it was Steve Nash they'd say he MADE Deng and no one would argue....but I digress).

Most of his game centers around his mid range jumpshot.

You're just like the other trolls, trying to skew an argument to make the Bulls and Bulls fans look bad.

:no:

[Kellogs4toniee]

Go Getter is completely right about Deng. Yes others are partly right too. He has always been a 17-18 PPG scorer, but he CAN NOT consistently create his own shot to the extent where running ISO's for him is beneficial for the team as a whole.

The worst part about all these posters raining there analysis of the Bulls is they haven't been watching the Bulls consistently for at the very least the last decade or so. Go Getter has, and I've known that for a while now on these boards.

Yes Deng's mid-range game is very effective. His shooting percentages were always very high because he rarely took many 3's before this season. There was a point where the Bulls organization felt Deng could be a franchise or number one/two option for there team. If anyone recalls, that was the year we took out the Heat in the first round after they won a championship, and the Bulls effectively shot down Kobe trade talks that would involve sending out Deng because we were that HIGH on Deng's up-side.

However, it became evident the next couple seasons that Deng is not the type of player that you can make the number one or two option. That is because he is not effective as a go to scorer who has to create for himself. Can he occasionally make a step back or pull up in ISO? Yes, but it would lead to a stagnant overall offense if we depended on him to do that often during a game. When Deng and Ben Gordon were the focal points of the Bulls offense, too many times you would have either or both give up a wide open shot just so they could bring it back and try to create there own shot. The offense was just plain ugly. Our offense now is a thing of beauty compared to what it was just a few years ago.

This is no knock on Deng at all. He has found the perfect niche for his play style, which is an excellent cutter, and off the ball player. The fact that he has improved his spot-up three point shot is just a testimont to how well this Bulls organization, coach, and players have managed to convince each and every player that they have a specific role to this team. Each player has embraced that, and as a result of the synergy the overall product is just so refreshing for long-time Bulls fans who have been forced to watch the out of control offenses back in the early 2000's.

[DMAVS41]

How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.

Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..

What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.

[chazzy]

What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.
Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.

[Go Getter]

again good point, things i hadnt considered, i would disagree with the bolded tho. and broken down play is essentially the same as shot clock situation.
Not exactly.

When a play breaks down the spacing and timing gets off course then sometimes it is necessary for a player to take things into his own hands.

Creating a good shot out of nothing is an art, a skill, and very few players can do that at this level.

[DMAVS41]

Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.

LOL

Being on the floor longer leads to more opportunities to be fouled. Another flawed way of thinking. You don't have to shoot to get to the ft line.

[chazzy]

LOL

Being on the floor longer leads to more opportunities to be fouled. Another flawed way of thinking. You don't have to shoot to get to the ft line.
And do those points you get not count or something? Fact is he gets to the line at a better rate relative to his FGA. That's what FTR is. If someone's on the floor drawing more fouls while not taking more shots at the same time, it's more efficient regardless of minutes.

[DMAVS41]

And do those points you get not count or something? Fact is he gets to the line at a better rate relative to his FGA. That's what FTR is. If someone's on the floor drawing more fouls while not taking more shots at the same time, it's more efficient regardless of minutes.

No, its not more efficient. Deng was getting to the line more per minute on the floor back in 07. That is more efficient.

You keep equating shooting more with getting to the line more. That is not how it works actually.

Anything to artificially drive up efficiency in some manner.

You keep saying TS is just about efficiency. Its not. Its about over valuing a 3.

FG% is just about efficiency from the field. its counts all makes and misses. thats all it does. if you want to look at free throws, look at FTA and percentage. not hard.

take two players:

25 points on 50% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts
25 points on 45% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts

The first player is more efficient. He's scoring his points while missing less shots. That is what efficiency is. Efficiency is about who misses less.

True Shooting could come in and depending on how many threes each take, could actually favor the 2nd player. How does that make sense? FG% accounts for all shots...both 2s and 3s.

True Shooting masks missed shots....which is the entire reason for having efficiency measures in the first place.

Really the only time TS and EFG should come into play is with true specialists. Like straight up 3 point shooters that rarely take and 2's. But even then, you can just look at 3pt percentage and attempts.

[Nash]

Hold on a second.. Rose is doing exactly what Lebron has been doing for years now, leading his team to #1 in the East. Its not like Rose is doing something Lebron can't do. You guys have to wait see what Rose can do in the Playoffs before going off choosing Rose. Lebron even lead a team without guys like Boozer and Noah to 2 straight 60+ seasons.

[Go Getter]

Hold on a second.. Rose is doing exactly what Lebron has been doing for years now, leading his team to #1 in the East. Its not like Rose is doing something Lebron can't do. You guys have to wait see what Rose can do in the Playoffs before going off choosing Rose. Lebron even lead a team without guys like Boozer and Noah to 2 straight 60+ seasons.


Lebron has played with a guy exactly like Boozer (lmao) and a guy a lot like Noah (Varejao).

Rose also is cheaper, sells more jerseys, and is less drama.

All things Pax and Gar (and Chicago) value.

Bron would **** around and get blasted by some GD's talking about "check my stats." Rose knows how to manuever through Chicago.:lol

[Nash]

Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.

[chazzy]

No, its not more efficient. Deng was getting to the line more per minute on the floor back in 07. That is more efficient.

You keep equating shooting more with getting to the line more. That is not how it works actually.

Anything to artificially drive up efficiency in some manner.

You keep saying TS is just about efficiency. Its not. Its about over valuing a 3.

FG% is just about efficiency from the field. its counts all makes and misses. thats all it does. if you want to look at free throws, look at FTA and percentage. not hard.

take two players:

25 points on 50% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts
25 points on 45% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts

The first player is more efficient. He's scoring his points while missing less shots. That is what efficiency is. Efficiency is about who misses less.

True Shooting could come in and depending on how many threes each take, could actually favor the 2nd player. How does that make sense? FG% accounts for all shots...both 2s and 3s.

True Shooting masks missed shots....which is the entire reason for having efficiency measures in the first place.
If TS% masks negatives, then only using FG% masks positives. Someone could shoot 6/12 and score 12 points, and another player could shoot 4/10 and 6/6 from the line for 14 points. Same amount of misses. Player A is viewed as having the better game because he shot 50%, player B is viewed as the chucker because he shot 40%. When people list stats, they only use FG% and never FTA/%, and 3PA/%. Do you consider Manu efficient this year? He's only shooting 43% but 2 of his 5.6 makes are 3s and he gets to the line 5+ times to go along with only 13 FGA.

Misses hurt, yeah. But do misses hurt when you score well on high volume?

And getting to the line more relative to your FGA is in fact part of efficiency because more of your scoring attempts consist of taking easier, higher percentage shots from the line instead of shots from the field.

[DMAVS41]

Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.

We all know this.

I love how a team with Boozer, Deng, and Noah is now not better than the garbage Lebron had.

Only on ISH can this be true. Hilarious.

[Nash]

Lebron has played with a guy exactly like Boozer (lmao) and a guy a lot like Noah (Varejao).

Rose also is cheaper, sells more jerseys, and is less drama.

All things Pax and Gar (and Chicago) value.

Bron would **** around and get blasted by some GD's talking about "check my stats." Rose knows how to manuever through Chicago.:lol
So you're telling me that Varejao is like Noah? Are you kidding me right now? And Boozer is an all star, who is the all star Lebron used to play with?

Also, financially, Lebron would bring in a lot more money than Rose ever would. Lebron and Kobe are on another level when it comes to marketing and bringing revenues. Lebron is a money machine and one of the most known athletes in the world.

[Go Getter]

when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.

[donald_trump]

1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).

1 and 2) can't score when needed? funny, i believe he finished the heat off in their last two meetings. one a clutch 3, and the other getting to the rim, creating his own shot and getting to the line.

3) watching games, watching games, watching games. this is the new fad on here. finish the argument with 'if you actually watched the games'.
what exactly do you think people on a basketball forum do? watch beach volleyball?

[Go Getter]

So you're telling me that Varejao is like Noah? Are you kidding me right now? And Boozer is an all star, who is the all star Lebron used to play with?

Also, financially, Lebron would bring in a lot more money than Rose ever would. Lebron and Kobe are on another level when it comes to marketing and bringing revenues. Lebron is a money machine and one of the most known athletes in the world.


Lebron played with Boozer silly....and he also played with Jamison (former All-Star) and Shaq.

Noah and varejoa have similar skillsets.

Lebron does not sell more jerseys than Rose.

Lebron could not put more butts in the seats than Rose--we already are #1 in attendance.

So who would he make more money for? The city? The team? Or himself?

[Nash]

when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.
Nobody is trying to discredit what Rose is doing, he will be the mvp. But being an all star isn't something that Lebron, Wade and Kobe can't achieve.

Also, you can't compare Bulls and Lebrons Cavs, no way man. Just the fact that Cleveland became THE WORST NBA TEAM IN HISTORY when Lebron left tells you a lot about what he was dealing with. Do you think that the Bulls would be the worst team in history if Rose left? Do you think a team with Noah, Deng and Boozer would be the worst in NBA history?

[Go Getter]

Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.


Lebron could not handle the ball as much as Rose with the same efficiency. He is not a PG, athlough he has the skills.

Rose offers a different style than the other players and the team would not be exactly the same with other stars in place of Rose.

maybe they'd be better in some cases...in others they would be worse.

But at 22 there is no way I'm trading him for Kobe, Wade, or yes, even Lebron.

[donald_trump]

when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.

both jordan and lebron actually played good defense. rose doesnt.

both jordan and lebron could expect a loss when they had a poor shooting night. rose can expect a win no matter how he plays.

rose this season is the only mvp candidate this season who plays better in losses than wins.

[DMAVS41]

If TS% masks negatives, then only using FG% masks positives. Someone could shoot 6/12 and score 12 points, and another player could shoot 4/10 and 6/6 from the line for 14 points. Same amount of misses. Player A is viewed as having the better game because he shot 50%, player B is viewed as the chucker because he shot 40%. When people list stats, they only use FG% and never FTA/%, and 3PA/%. Do you consider Manu efficient this year? He's only shooting 43% but 2 of his 5.6 makes are 3s and he gets to the line 5+ times to go along with only 13 FGA

Misses hurt, yeah. But do misses hurt when you score well on high volume?

Which is why you should look at everything. Not just one or the other. Like I keep saying. In some cases...hell, in plenty of cases, TS% is as good or better of a measure than just fg%.

But i'm not using just fg%. I'm using everything. You, and others are proponents of just using TS%. In many cases it does not reflect what is really happening.

Which is why I prefer to look at all the raw data. It gives you a better idea.

If we are solely talking stats...this is what i would want to know.

FG% and attempts, 3pt percentage and attempts, FT% and attempts.

I think what many people ignore is that the PPG stat in and of itself is evident of many of these things when you combine i with fga. just from that we can see if a player is taking more threes or scoring a lot at the ft line.

My opinion overall is that TS is more flawed because it masks missed shots....and missed shots kill.

There are plenty of cases I'm sure you could find that TS is a better measure and vice versa.

In this case with Deng, the TS metric is valuing threes too much.

[chazzy]

when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.
Well the criticism came more around a month ago when the bulls were 15th-18th in the league offensively.. they've improved since then. The reason why Lebron didn't hear any criticism for having a good defense is because he was a big part of why they were a good defense, and they had the 4th best offense to go along with it. Same with Jordan. Rose doesn't come close to those guys' defensive impact.

[Go Getter]

Nobody is trying to discredit what Rose is doing, he will be the mvp. But being an all star isn't something that Lebron, Wade and Kobe can't achieve.

Also, you can't compare Bulls and Lebrons Cavs, no way man. Just the fact that Cleveland became THE WORST NBA TEAM IN HISTORY when Lebron left tells you a lot about what he was dealing with. Do you think that the Bulls would be the worst team in history if Rose left? Do you think a team with Noah, Deng and Boozer would be the worst in NBA history?


Are you serious?:roll:


read the board man....there are TONS of people doing just that.

And the cavs didn't only lose Bron they lost their coach, they lost Shaq, they lost Mo, and Jamison is down for the year.

It's the Cav's fault for building around a guy who didn't respect them enough to tell them he wanted to be traded. He held the team hostage thinking he was coming back and burned them.

I wouldn't invest in a guy like that that's why I chose Rose.

[donald_trump]

Lebron does not sell more jerseys than Rose.

Lebron could not put more butts in the seats than Rose--we already are #1 in attendance.

So who would he make more money for? The city? The team? Or himself?

let me guess, with the sale of jerseys we actually have to watch them being sold instead of going off the stats, right? :oldlol: :oldlol:

and yeah, miami has the number 1 overall attendance based on home and away. :oldlol:

there is no point arguing with people who blatantly lie.

[Go Getter]

Well the criticism came more around a month ago when the bulls were 15th-18th in the league offensively.. they've improved since then. The reason why Lebron didn't hear any criticism for having a good defense is because he was a big part of why they were a good defense, and they had the 4th best offense to go along with it. Same with Jordan. Rose doesn't come close to those guys' defensive impact.


We weren't 15th-18th because Rose sucks....we wouldhave been worse WITHOUT Rose.

Bron's on ball defense (and off ball as of now) is extremely overrated.

Rose averages more blocks than Lebron right now.

[DMAVS41]

Well the criticism came more around a month ago when the bulls were 15th-18th in the league offensively.. they've improved since then. The reason why Lebron didn't hear any criticism for having a good defense is because he was a big part of why they were a good defense, and they had the 4th best offense to go along with it. Same with Jordan. Rose doesn't come close to those guys' defensive impact.

Exactly.

[Nash]

Lebron played with Boozer silly....and he also played with Jamison (former All-Star) and Shaq.

Noah and varejoa have similar skillsets.

Lebron does not sell more jerseys than Rose.

Lebron could not put more butts in the seats than Rose--we already are #1 in attendance.

So who would he make more money for? The city? The team? Or himself?
Are you really for real? Lebron played with Boozer for one season. Also, the Boozer of today is way better than the Boozer Lebron had.

And are you seriously comparing Noah and Verajao just cuz they have the same skillset? Thats like saying Igoudala could replace Lebron cuz Igoudala is the poor mans Lebron or that OJ Mayo can replace Kobe cuz they got the same skillset. You're delusional man.

Chicago is a sports town, people would show up if the team is doing good. Miami is a different city where they don't give a f*ck. If Lebron was playing for the Bulls the Chicago fans would buy anything he's a part of.

[DMAVS41]

We weren't 15th-18th because Rose sucks....we wouldhave been worse WITHOUT Rose.

Bron's on ball defense (and off ball as of now) is extremely overrated.

Rose averages more blocks than Lebron right now.

Nobody is saying Rose sucks though.

Of course you would have been far worse without Rose.

Please don't compare Rose's defensive impact to that of Lebron. Its light years apart at this point.

[Go Getter]

We all know this.

I love how a team with Boozer, Deng, and Noah is now not better than the garbage Lebron had.

Only on ISH can this be true. Hilarious.


Cavs built around Bron.

He had knock down shooters and good defenders and a team that was built to play tough series in the post season.

When the chips were down HE failed to step up and made that lame excuse about his arm.

HE was garbage.

The team he had was good enough to reach the finals at least and he shrunk like a cold ball sack. It's nuts that people called that team garbage. They were a GREAT team.

He found it in himself to dance on the Bulls like an ass to make fun of us.

Now he looks stupid and i can't wait...I hope we knock their asses out the playoffs.

[tpols]

The first player is more efficient. He's scoring his points while missing less shots. That is what efficiency is. Efficiency is about who misses less.
.
What?

Efficiency is points scored divided by possessions used to get those points.

With this logic a 3pt shooter going 4/10 is less efficient than another player going 5/10 on 2pt field goals. One took 10 scoring opportunities to score 12 points and one took 10 opportunities to score 10 points despite the latter shooting 10% better FG. There's no way you can spin this to say the second player is more efficient.:oldlol:

Taking threes results in more misses which can give the opposing team more opportunities but at the same token, three pointers are some of the biggest momentum shifters in the game and anyone whose ever played basketball knows that it is a rythym game. They have their positives and their negatives.

It really comes down to what you value but all statistics have their place in the game. TS shows us how many opportunities it took a player to get his points.That is efficiency at it's rawest.

[Go Getter]

Nobody is saying Rose sucks though.
*I was being sarcastic*
Of course you would have been far worse without Rose.

Please don't compare Rose's defensive impact to that of Lebron. Its light years apart at this point.


Why is it?

Lebron has never been a lockdown defender on the perimeter, his merit always came from weak side blocks.

Now he doesn't even have more blocks than Rose.

Rose has played good to stellar d on some of the league's best point guards.

*In b4 egg head defensive rtg stat.

[Nash]

Are you serious?:roll:


read the board man....there are TONS of people doing just that.

And the cavs didn't only lose Bron they lost their coach, they lost Shaq, they lost Mo, and Jamison is down for the year.

It's the Cav's fault for building around a guy who didn't respect them enough to tell them he wanted to be traded. He held the team hostage thinking he was coming back and burned them.

I wouldn't invest in a guy like that that's why I chose Rose.
Well I'm not discrediting Rose, I like Rose.

What? Mo was there when Cleveland became the worst team in history, so was Jamison. Also, a 39 year old Shaq has no effect on a team anymore. Cleveland would have still been the worst team in history with or without a 39 year old Shaq.

[Go Getter]

Are you really for real? Lebron played with Boozer for one season. Also, the Boozer of today is way better than the Boozer Lebron had.

And are you seriously comparing Noah and Verajao just cuz they have the same skillset? Thats like saying Igoudala could replace Lebron cuz Igoudala is the poor mans Lebron or that OJ Mayo can replace Kobe cuz they got the same skillset. You're delusional man.

Chicago is a sports town, people would show up if the team is doing good. Miami is a different city where they don't give a f*ck. If Lebron was playing for the Bulls the Chicago fans would buy anything he's a part of.


You said he never played with guys like Booz and Noah and I proved you wrong.

Booz has been so so this year and not better than the year he held FA hostage for a big contract.

The jump from OJ to Kobe or AI to Bron is MUCH MUCH bigger than the jump from Varejao to Noah. Be real man.

Chicago is a sports town but we don't like certain types of guys.

Media icon or not, Bron doesn't sell more jerseys than Rose and he couldn't put more fans in the seats than Rose does.

We like rooting for a hometown kid....old ladies who know nothing about basketball tune in because we have the Chicago kid who made good out of a notoriously bad neighborhood.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

both jordan and lebron actually played good defense. rose doesnt.

both jordan and lebron could expect a loss when they had a poor shooting night. rose can expect a win no matter how he plays.

rose this season is the only mvp candidate this season who plays better in losses than wins.

Haha r u serious? This dude is the most idiotic and inscure poster here, along with Pauk and youcallIlose

[Go Getter]

Well I'm not discrediting Rose, I like Rose.

What? Mo was there when Cleveland became the worst team in history, so was Jamison. Also, a 39 year old Shaq has no effect on a team anymore. Cleveland would have still been the worst team in history with or without a 39 year old Shaq.


Who knows what would have happened if they would have kept Mike Brown, Jamison was healthy, and they kept West and Mo?

They lost MUCH more than just Lebron man.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Rose is already one of the best players in the game at 22. All of these guys are insecure haters. They spend their whole day writing these BS comments, you guys dont have anything better to do? Your life must really be invaluable if you spend your whole day hating on a player on a forum. I could only do that for my fav. player, shows how much insecure you guys are of Rose. I hate Rondo and I never go into boards writing sh1t about it, cuz i know I got better things to put my time into. Its funny, are you guys going to do this for the next 15 years?

I know with success comes a bunch of haters, but damn you guys are not just haters, but losers.

[DMAVS41]

What?

Efficiency is points scored divided by possessions used to get those points.

With this logic a 3pt shooter going 4/10 is less efficient than another player going 5/10 on 2pt field goals. One took 10 scoring opportunities to score 12 points and one took 10 opportunities to score 10 points despite the latter shooting 10% better FG. There's no way you can spin this to say the second player is more efficient.:oldlol:

Taking threes results in more misses which can give the opposing team more opportunities but at the same token, three pointers are some of the biggest momentum shifters in the game and anyone whose ever played basketball knows that it is a rythym game. They have their positives and their negatives.

It really comes down to what you value but all statistics have their place in the game. TS shows us how many opportunities it took a player to get his points.That is efficiency at it's rawest.

I disagree. Efficiency at its rawest is counting makes and misses. Of course all things being equal and assuming the same number of points scored...

Like I have repeatedly said, in some instances (like straight three point shooters) TS does a great job.

However, if we are looking at scoring in general, i think the raw data is better than TS%.

Take Wade and Kobe. I would imagine there TS% numbers are pretty similar. However, Wade misses about 1 shot less than Kobe per game to get his points. That is huge in the grand scheme of things.

TS rewards players for settling for threes more than it should and manipulates data.

Why is it used on here when we can just as easily post everything. TS narrows the efficiency gap between players.

Deng in 07 shot 6% better from the field and 2.5% better from the ft line and missed less shots and scored more points than he did this year. Yet his ts% is only 1.2% different because of threes. That doesn't work for me.

I want the entire picture.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Without Rose, the bulls are a poor mans Milwaukee Bucks.

[Nash]

You said he never played with guys like Booz and Noah and I proved you wrong.

Booz has been so so this year and not better than the year he held FA hostage for a big contract.

The jump from OJ to Kobe or AI to Bron is MUCH MUCH bigger than the jump from Varejao to Noah. Be real man.

Chicago is a sports town but we don't like certain types of guys.

Media icon or not, Bron doesn't sell more jerseys than Rose and he couldn't put more fans in the seats than Rose does.

We like rooting for a hometown kid....old ladies who know nothing about basketball tune in because we have the Chicago kid who made good out of a notoriously bad neighborhood.
But comparing the rookie Lebron and the Booz of back then to the Booz of now is not fair. Lebron wasn't going to win anything during his rookie season when he was 18. Put it like this, if Lebron had Noah instead of Shaq last season, Booz instead of Jamison and Deng instead of Parker you'd see a fair comparison.

Mo Williams
Lebron
Deng
Boozer
Noah

is so much better than..

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Lebron
Jamison
Shaq

Its not even a contest my man..

[Nash]

Rose is already one of the best players in the game at 22. All of these guys are insecure haters. They spend their whole day writing these BS comments, you guys dont have anything better to do? Your life must really be invaluable if you spend your whole day hating on a player on a forum. I could only do that for my fav. player, shows how much insecure you guys are of Rose. I hate Rondo and I never go into boards writing sh1t about it, cuz i know I got better things to put my time into. Its funny, are you guys going to do this for the next 15 years?

I know with success comes a bunch of haters, but damn you guys are not just haters, but losers.
Cool down, Rose is in fact one of the best players we have today. And he is the mvp.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Rose is going to teach LeBron that you have to earn a ring in the NBA, you dont just get it, just like he's been getting things easily his whole career because of ESPN and people like you guys on his nuts

[DJmicah]

Well Rose has done exactly what Bron has proven he can do, 1 seed in regular season and win MVP, so we have to wait until playoffs to answer that question.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

But comparing the rookie Lebron and the Booz of back then to the Booz of now is not fair. Lebron wasn't going to win anything during his rookie season when he was 18. Put it like this, if Lebron had Noah instead of Shaq last season, Booz instead of Jamison and Deng instead of Parker you'd see a fair comparison.

Mo Williams
Lebron
Deng
Boozer
Noah

is so much better than..

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Lebron
Jamison
Shaq

Its not even a contest my man..

Outcome will be the same in the Playoffs, LeBron will choke

[Nash]

Rose is going to teach LeBron that you have to earn a ring in the NBA, you dont just get it, just like he's been getting things easily his whole career because of ESPN and people like you guys on his nuts
Lebron has earned everything he has gotten cuz he's an amazing NBA player, not cuz ESPN has thrown him down our throats. The guy is averaging 26/7/7 with both Bosh and Wade which means less touches. Thats almost a triple double which is unheard of these days in basketball.

[DMAVS41]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.

[tpols]

Take Wade and Kobe. I would imagine there TS% numbers are pretty similar. However, Wade misses about 1 shot less than Kobe per game to get his points. That is huge in the grand scheme of things.

Nah.. Wade's TS is considerably higher right now. And rightfully so. He is more efficient.

In their last couple playoff runs they have comparable efficiencies(TS) and rightfully so because kobe is a better 3pt shooter, and foul shooter than wade. If the players put the same amount of points on the board and they took up the same amount of their TEAM'S possessions to get those points than by the rawest measure of efficiency they were equal. It's literally the webster textbook definition. Ratio of work done/time allotted=Points/possessions to get points.

Just because you look at a 3pt shooter as having more misses being worse overall doesn't mean the literal definition of the word efficiency can be changed. There are positives and negatives to a player shooting more threes and as I stated before, one of them is that 3pt shooters routinely change the momentum of games as much as a spectacular break away crowd roaring dunk.

You're basically just giving us your opinion on what you think of extra misses..

[DMAVS41]

Nah.. Wade's TS is considerably higher right now. And rightfully so. He is more efficient.

In their last couple playoff runs they have comparable efficiencies(TS) and rightfully so because kobe is a better 3pt shooter, and foul shooter than wade. If the players put the same amount of points on the board and they took up the same amount of their TEAM'S possessions to get those points than by the rawest measure of efficiency they were equal. It's literally the webster textbook definition. Ratio of work done/time allotted=Points/possessions to get points.

Just because you look at a 3pt shooter as having more misses being worse overall doesn't mean the literal definition of the word efficiency can be changed. There are positives and negatives to a player shooting more threes and as I stated before, one of them is that 3pt shooters routinely change the momentum of games as much as a spectacular break away crowd roaring dunk.

You're basically just giving us your opinion on what you think of extra misses..

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.

Efficiency is raw data....not manipulated data. True Shooting estimates the things you are talking about and manipulates raw data. At times, it can be very accurate....other times, it can be a poor representation of scoring efficiency based on its formula as seen above.

Do you think a .3% difference is in reality indicative of the scoring efficiency of Lebron and Jordan?

[tpols]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.
No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.

[chazzy]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.
You're not accounting for volume at all though. Lebron shot more 3s (2x+ as many) at a similar percentage and got to the line at a better rate. If you want to make it more simple then Jordan scored 30 on 23 shots, Lebron 28 on 20 shots. Of course, if you compare them you have to factor in perimeter rules which help players get to the line more.

[Nash]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.
Well, that just tells you what kind of help the GOAT had back then. Lebron has not the same help.

Harper
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

is so much better than

Mo
Parker
Lebron
Jamison
38 year old Shaq

[DMAVS41]

No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.

You can't ignore the raw data. Jesus Christ. how do you not see this?

You keep saying its an opinion. Its not an opinion. You aren't using anything but an estimation that manipulates the raw data. Its your opinion of what efficiency actually is. Mine is different.

So we have Jordan making a higher percentage of field goals (counts every shot 2s and 3s) and shooting 9% better from the the ft line yet his TS percentage is virtually identical.

That is simply not accurate enough of true efficiency.

[tpols]

And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

You're not accounting for volume at all though. Lebron shot more 3s (2x+ as many) at a similar percentage and got to the line at a better rate. If you want to make it more simple then Jordan scored 30 on 23 shots, Lebron 28 on 20 shots. Of course, if you compare them you have to factor in perimeter rules which help players get to the line more.

Exactly my point. Thank you. Taking a bunch of threes is highly valued by True Shooting.

Therefore its not as accurate as the raw data.

[tpols]

You can't ignore the raw data. Jesus Christ. how do you not see this?

You keep saying its an opinion. Its not an opinion. You aren't using anything but an estimation that manipulates the raw data. Its your opinion of what efficiency actually is. Mine is different.

So we have Jordan making a higher percentage of field goals (counts every shot 2s and 3s) and shooting 9% better from the the ft line yet his TS percentage is virtually identical.

That is simply not accurate enough of true efficiency.
Not opinions. Facts.:oldlol:

Lebron has a higher 2pt percentage than michael and overall he is more efficient from the field(if you ignore FTs) because his eFG(points/possesions adjusted for the fact that three points contribute 50% more points) is higher than jordan's.

[DMAVS41]

And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:

Actually they don't at all. It only accurately reflects efficiency if you want to claim that missing shots is of no consequence.

And taking threes is absolutely reflected in normal fg% and evidenced by ppg.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Orlando Magic]

Holy hell @ the idiocy in this thread.

lol @ most of the people that wouldn't trade a once in three years player for a once in a generation player. Amazing. ****ing amazing. The hype is out of control, or people really don't understand what they're watching. Or... both.

[chazzy]

Exactly my point. Thank you. Taking a bunch of threes is highly valued by True Shooting.

Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol

[Go Getter]

Holy hell @ the idiocy in this thread.

lol @ most of the people that wouldn't trade a once in three years player for a once in a generation player. Amazing. ****ing amazing. The hype is out of control, or people really don't understand what they're watching. Or... both.


It's not about the players it's about the team.


We are doing DAMN WELL without Bron so screw him.


Why mess up a team, org, city for one guy when we have a young superstar who wants to be here?

We all know how Lebron acts when he doesn't get his way.

:violin:

[DMAVS41]

Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol

Its about how they are weighted.

[Orlando Magic]

It's not about the players it's about the team.


We are doing DAMN WELL without Bron so screw him.


Why mess up a team, org, city for one guy when we have a young superstar who wants to be here?

We all know how Lebron acts when he doesn't get his way.

:violin:

Go Getter: My team is doing great so I wouldn't trade Kwame Brown for peak Shaq. Makes perfect sense... in my mind. ;)

[tpols]

And taking threes is absolutely reflected in normal fg% and evidenced by ppg.

No it's not. :oldlol:

A player can score 24ppg on 40%FG.. seems really bad right? Not necessarily.

What if said player is exclusively a 3pt shooter and he averages 8/20 makes/attempts a game with all of them being 3s?

FG would tell us this is a terribly inefficient scorer but in actuality he has a 60%eFG efficiency from the floor meaning he will take away 20 of his teammates scoring opportunities but capitalize on those opporutnities by scoring 24 points.. making him much more than a volume scorer.. something his FG and ppg would tell you COMPLETELY otherwise.

You make no sense bro.:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:

Uh, have you see Jordan's eFG %'s his first 8 seasons in the league? Wait until LeBron retires or goes into his 30's. His efficiency will drop like a rock.

Jordan:
.518
.462
.484
.537
.546
.550
.547
.526



LeBron:
.438
.504
.515
.507
.518
.530
.545
.541

So no, even when you take 3's into account, Jordan is still in every measure more efficient than LeBron.

[tpols]

Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol
What this comes down to is gino thinks a 33%3pt shooter=/=a 50% 2pt shooter.

He values how many misses/makes a player has as how efficient he was. That's his opinion.

The true measure of efficiency has already been defined for him multiple times.

[DMAVS41]

No it's not. :oldlol:

A player can score 24ppg on 40%FG.. seems really bad right? Not necessarily.

What if said player is exclusively a 3pt shooter and he averages 8/20 makes/attempts a game with all of them being 3s?

FG would tell us this is a terribly inefficient scorer but in actuality he has a 60%eFG efficiency from the floor meaning he will take away 20 of his teammates scoring opportunities but capitalize on those opporutnities by scoring 24 points.. making him much more than a volume scorer.. something his FG and ppg would tell you COMPLETELY otherwise.

You make no sense bro.:oldlol:

That is absolutely represented in the raw data. All you have to look at is his 3pt % and attempts.

You act like I'm saying TS has no place in the conversation no matter what. I never said that.

Its just not very accurate in a lot of scenarios. Like in the Deng scenario or the Lebron vs Jordan scenario.

[tpols]

Uh, have you see Jordan's eFG %'s his first 8 seasons in the league? Wait until LeBron retires or goes into his 30's. His efficiency will drop like a rock.

Jordan:
.518
.462
.484
.537
.546
.550
.547
.526



LeBron:
.438
.504
.515
.507
.518
.530
.545
.541

So no, even when you take 3's into account, Jordan is still in every measure more efficient than LeBron.
I agree. I'm just using the overall numbers in general for the argument of why TS and eFG are essential stats to use when comparing players who take differing amounts of three pointers. I wasn't really doing an in depth analysis of jordan and lebron.

[Go Getter]

Go Getter: My team is doing great so I wouldn't trade Kwame Brown for peak Shaq. Makes perfect sense... in my mind. ;)


Not so sure if Kwame for Shaq is the same deal as Rose+players for Lebron.

Changing a team's identity is a risky thing.

Lebron has a reputation for being whiny and discontent when things don't go his way.

Our organization is built with a different type of player.

Adding Lebron would not only change the team's roster, but it's attitude.

Why would we mess with that when we have most of the league admiring our style of play?

[DMAVS41]

What this comes down to is gino thinks a 33%3pt shooter=/=a 50% 2pt shooter.

He values how many misses/makes a player has as how efficient he was. That's his opinion.

The true measure of efficiency has already been defined for him multiple times.

Because that is what the word means. Raw efficiency is makes and misses for everything. field goals, threes, and free throws. you want to plug all these numbers into a formula and have it spit out numbers that are always way closer than reality.

the act of taking more threes does not make a player more efficient that misses more shots and shoots 9% worse from the ft line while scoring less points from the ft line. a .3% difference just doesn't do reality justice.

its not an opinion that missed shots are bad. its just a fact. it is an opinion that taking more threes should be rewarded in an efficiency measure that estimates and manipulates data.

why do you need to manipulate data when you can see the raw data just as easily?

[Andrei89]

Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.

Lebron in his third year pwnd everything Rose has done this year. I bet there were threads in 2007 by you trolls about how Lebron is more humble,a better teammate and plays harder than Kobe.

You are retarded son, very

[tpols]

That is absolutely represented in the raw data. All you have to look at is his 3pt % and attempts.
.
Yea and if he's shooting 33% from the 3 pt line that is equivalent to shooting 50% from 2pt range. It is the same number of points in the same number of possessions.:oldlol:

So if lebron is taking more threes than jordan OF COURSE his FG will be lower but when you adjust the percentage for the amount of points they actually scored when given the same number of looks they have the same percentage.. and that is what eFG is.

You are actually the idiot for using only FG to compare players when they differ in the amount of threes they take because it gives a distorted picture of who was more efficient.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree. I'm just using the overall numbers in general for the argument of why TS and eFG are essential stats to use when comparing players who take differing amounts of three pointers. I wasn't really doing an in depth analysis of jordan and lebron.

TS% is a little skewed because it takes into account FT's, and judging by the refs and how the rules have helped perimeter players today (the league in general shoots more FTs now), I don't think it's fair to use. Also, on average, a 2 and 3PT shot is worth more than FTs. eFG and FG% are probably the best measures of efficiency.

I just use FT, FG and 3PT%'s to determine if a player got to the line, shot too many 3s and/or FGs. I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.

[tpols]

Because that is what the word means. Raw efficiency is makes and misses for everything. field goals, threes, and free throws. ?
Yup and since threes are worth more than twos a miss from a three is not as costly as a miss from two because it's benefit is 1.5X greater.

You're basically dancing around the point and trying to evade the fact that 3s are worth more than twos by saying that makes are makes and misses are misses. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yea and if he's shooting 33% from the 3 pt line that is equivalent to shooting 50% from 2pt range. It is the same number of points in the same number of possessions.:oldlol:

So if lebron is taking more threes than jordan OF COURSE his FG will be lower but when you adjust the percentage for the amount of points they actually scored when given the same number of looks they have the same percentage.. and that is what eFG is.

You are actually the idiot for using only FG to compare players when they differ in the amount of threes they take because it gives a distorted picture of who was more efficient.

but i'm not using just fg%. i'm using everything. LOL moron. that is my point.

I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.

we aren't arguing efg%. we are arguing ts%.:no:

[tpols]

TS% is a little skewed because it takes into account FT's, and judging by the refs and how the rules have helped perimeter players today (the league in general shoots more FTs now), I don't think it's fair to use. Also, on average, a 2 and 3PT shot is worth more than FTs. eFG and FG% are probably the best measures of efficiency.

I just use FT, FG and 3PT%'s to determine if a player got to the line, shot too many 3s and/or FGs. I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.
Don't use TS if thats how you feel.

Use eFG. It is the most accurate measure of how a player scored from the floor because it takes into account 2pt and 3pt percentages.

[DMAVS41]

Yup and since threes are worth more than twos a miss from a three is not as costly as a miss from two because it's benefit is 1.5X greater.

You're basically dancing around the point and trying to evade the fact that 3s are worth more than twos by saying that makes are makes and misses are misses. :oldlol:

not at all. what you are arguing for is efg%. we aren't even talking about that.

[Go Getter]

Lebron in his third year pwnd everything Rose has done this year. I bet there were threads in 2007 by you trolls about how Lebron is more humble,a better teammate and plays harder than Kobe.

You are retarded son, very


Well, if Rose wins MVP your first statement would be patently false.

And Rose and crew beat a "super team" that was destined to win 73 games this season not once, not twice, but three times.

why would you pull me into a Kobe Vs. Lebron debate?

I don't know how that pertains to anything sir.

[DMAVS41]

Don't use TS if thats how you feel.

Use eFG. It is the most accurate measure of how a player scored from the floor because it takes into account 2pt and 3pt percentages.

actually its not. looking at the raw fg% and raw 3pt percentage is more accurate.

[chazzy]

I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.
And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:

[Rose]

And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:
:lol

[tpols]

I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.
Jordan absolutely has an advantage at the line. Jordan, as I said before, is less efficient from the field than lebron(eFG).. but he is 9% more efficient from the line. This jumps him ahead of lebron in TS because all TS is is eFG with FTs taken into account. It literally reflects reality perfectly.:oldlol:


we aren't arguing efg%. we are arguing ts%.:no:
Wait but misses are important right? You said before misses and makes were all that mattered and now you don't want to argue eFG? Of course you don't because I just showed you that lebron's eFG is higher than jordan's because lebron has a higher 2ptFG that is masked by the fact that he takes more 3s. Sit down son.

[trig]

Lebron is the better athlete, better talent, better individual player

But Rose is the better teammate, better leader, better attitude, clutch player and cares about winning more than anything else

I wonder what could have happened if Lebron signed with chicago instead. Would they have the same chemistry they have now?

[Andrei89]

Well, if Rose wins MVP your first statement would be patently false.

And Rose and crew beat a "super team" that was destined to win 73 games this season not once, not twice, but three times.

why would you pull me into a Kobe Vs. Lebron debate?

I don't know how that pertains to anything sir.

You clearly don't get it do you.

Lebron in his third year averaged like 31 points 7 assist and 7 rebounds on 48% shooting. Add a 50-32 record to that with a team that wasn't even near the level Chicago is right now.

Trolls like PleezeBelieve back then were making threads and trolled hard about how Lerbon is humble, plays hard, is a winner etc etc etc etc.

Now all of a sudden Rose is in his third year and he is better than Lebron because he is humble, and a winner and plays hard.

People judge every player season by season to be honest. Wait until their careers are over, then you can troll about Rose > James.

These stupid trolls will turn on Rose so fast if he is having an off year you would not even imagine. They are no basketball fans, they just have no life.

Look at PleezeBelieve, if he was a true basketball fan he would stop making obsession threads about Lebron James and concentrate on Cleveland. Instead he makes dupe accounts to praise Lebron with them and smash him with the original.

[chazzy]

I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.

Jordan gets the advantage because Lebron's eFG% is better, the FT shooting is what makes his TS% better. Lebron's superior FT rate is what makes it closer though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:

Writing a novel about me? :oldlol:

Anyway, I use those stats because they're not just measures of efficiency; they combine EVERYTHING into how a player is producing (his production).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

actually its not. looking at the raw fg% and raw 3pt percentage is more accurate.

This.

[DMAVS41]

Jordan absolutely has an advantage at the line. Jordan, as I said before, is less efficient from the field than lebron(eFG).. but he is 9% more efficient from the line. This jumps him ahead of lebron in TS because all TS is is eFG with FTs taken into account. It literally reflects reality perfectly.:oldlol:

Wait but misses are important right? You said before misses and makes were all that mattered and now you don't want to argue eFG? Of course you don't because I just showed you that lebron's eFG is higher than jordan's because lebron has a higher 2ptFG that is masked by the fact that he takes more 3s. Sit down son.


my god. no it doesn't. you are ignoring so many things.

sit down son?

wtf are you talking about? you aren't even understanding what we are debating.

we are debating raw data vs manipulated data. you prefer manipulating data and estimating points per possession. i prefer looking at the raw data and making conclusions.

again. i don't think true shooting is balanced properly because it does not account for missed shots the way raw numbers show you and values free throw rate too high.

[chazzy]

Raw %s don't account for volume at all, how is only looking at FG% and 3P% superior to eFG%?

[Papaya Petee]

Current Rose hasn't even been as good as a 2nd year Wade, counting playoffs, and you guys are saying you wouldn't trade him for LeBron frigging James? Stop acting like you're idiotic and sick in the head, the Bulls organization would do this in a heartbeat and not even think about it.

[tpols]

Raw %s don't account for volume at all, how is only looking at FG% and 3P% superior to eFG%?
It's not.

Gino cant even argue it anymore. Look above^. He's playing dumb now.:oldlol:

[Go Getter]

Current Rose hasn't even been as good as a 2nd year Wade, counting playoffs, and you guys are saying you wouldn't trade him for LeBron frigging James? Stop acting like you're idiotic and sick in the head, the Bulls organization would do this in a heartbeat and not even think about it.


Yeah right.


You must not know about Gar and Pax and they way the Bull's org is run.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Raw %s don't account for volume at all, how is only looking at FG% and 3P% superior to eFG%?

Field goal attempts made and missed do. I thought that's what they're for :confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Field goal attempts made and missed do. I thought that's what they're for :confusedshrug:
He said %s. eFG% accounts for volume and rate, and gives credit to the extra point from 3s.

[DMAVS41]

Raw %s don't account for volume at all, how is only looking at FG% and 3P% superior to eFG%?

What?

Why wouldn't you look at attempts as well? Why the **** do you people want everything to be so limited?

You act like its hard to also check attempts.

LOL

[Papaya Petee]

Yeah right.


You must not know about Gar and Pax and they way the Bull's org is run.
Okay whatever you say, lets not trade for the best player in league by a decent amount for a guard who scores 24 PPG on 44% and plays average defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He said %s. eFG% accounts for volume and rate, and gives credit to the extra point from 3s.

As does looking at FG made and missed; 3PT made and missed. You get someones FG and 3PT% from it.

You don't look at just %'s without volume. That's just stupid.

[Sroek]

Fans might not. Team would in a second.

No they wouldn't. Considering pieces have more to do with fitting into the team puzzle and personality than it does stats. Rose is more valuable to the Bulls than Lebron would be at this point. Lebron is a statwhore, not a leader or team-player. Rose is currently perceived as the franchise' savior with his winner's mentality and killer instinct. On top of that, it will piss off their fan base, jeopardizing finances. It would be a terrible move.

You would be the worst GM in the league if you thought this was anywhere near a good idea.

[Fatal9]

LeBron had a higher 2 pt % last season than MJ ever did in his career.

[Go Getter]

Okay whatever you say, lets not trade for the best player in league by a decent amount for a guard who scores 24 PPG on 44% and plays average defense.
The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

We don't need Lebron at the risk of losing a better team player that is younger and leading our team to the best record in the same conference as Lebron.

Championships are better than being able to say you had the best player on your team.

[DMAVS41]

As does looking at FG made and missed; 3PT made and missed. You get someones FG and 3PT% from it.

You don't look at just %'s without volume. That's just stupid.

Exactly. I find this conversation to be maddening.

Do they realize that we have access to all the raw data that goes into the TS formula?

Why would you ever choose an estimated formula over raw data on something as simple as this?

There aren't hundreds of variables. Its looking at a few things. Thats it.

This debate was not about whether or not TS is stupid. Its about which is better and more accurate. Raw data or TS....and i'll take the raw data every single time as would anyone with a brain.

[imdaman99]

at this point no they wouldnt. but once till the bulls lose in the playoffs and they might. they might then realize that derrick rose is not michael jordan part 2. oh wait he needs his scottie pippen :lol

[Go Getter]

at this point no they wouldnt. but once till the bulls lose in the playoffs and they might. they might then realize that derrick rose is not michael jordan part 2. oh wait he needs his scottie pippen :lol


Lebron has his Scottie Pippen and his team still ain't shit (so far).

[Notorious D.M.C]

Props, Bulls fans. You all have a true superstar leader, who only wants to win and not chase fame.

Do you all realize what you have or would you be enticed to have the Queen on your tram in place of Rose?

Although I consider LeBron the best player in NBA currently..I don't think Chicago does it. Rose isn't that far behind and is improving at an alarming rate. Plus he is the "home town" kid

[chazzy]

So how do you interpret all that raw data?

What's more efficient -

23FGA on 50% and shooting 33% on 1.7 3PA

20.6FGA on 48% and shooting 33% on 4.1 3PA?

[DMAVS41]

So how do you interpret all that raw data?

What's more efficient -

23FGA on 50% and shooting 33% on 1.7 3PA

20.6FGA on 48% and shooting 33% on 4.1 3PA?

what do you mean?

not counting free throws? very comparable.

[KingBeasley08]

:roll:

yea they would :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron had a higher 2 pt % last season than MJ ever did in his career.

Jordan in '89/90 on 2's - 942 / 1719 = .548
LeBron last season on 2's - 639/1141 = .550

On considerably less volume, yes LeBron was more efficient. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

what do you mean?

not counting free throws? very comparable.
Comparable, but which one is more efficient from the field?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So how do you interpret all that raw data?

What's more efficient -

23FGA on 50% and shooting 33% on 1.7 3PA

20.6FGA on 48% and shooting 33% on 4.1 3PA?

PPG would be nice. Like TS and eFG%, you can't really determine who's more efficient without everything on the table.

[DMAVS41]

Comparable, but which one is more efficient from the field?

very difficult to say because its not similar volume. one player is taking 2.4 more shots.

[chazzy]

PPG would be nice. Like FG%, you can't really determine who's more efficient without everything on the table.
PPG would include freethrows, this tells you all you need to know about scoring from the field

[chazzy]

very difficult to say because its not similar volume. one player is taking 2.4 more shots.
This is my point - Raw data shows you everything but you don't know how exactly to interpret similar data sets. You can look at this and say it's about the same, but stats like eFG% and TS% tell you which one is actually more efficient right down to the decimal point

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

PPG would include freethrows, this tells you all you need to know about scoring from the field

No, I'm asking what their PPG would be; you gave an example, but just threw out a bunch of numbers without putting them into context. What would those said players PPG be in your example?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is my point - Raw data shows you everything but you don't know how exactly to interpret similar data sets. You can look at this and say it's about the same, but stats like eFG% and TS% tell you which one is actually more efficient right down to the decimal point

And also doesn't tell you things like shot selection and how valuable made and missed shots are to a teams success.

[DMAVS41]

This is my point - Raw data shows you everything but you don't know how exactly to interpret similar data sets. You can look at this and say it's about the same, but stats like eFG% and TS% tell you which one is actually more efficient right down to the decimal point

no they can't. ts% is an estimation. it manipulates data. thats all it does. it does not give anything right down to the decimal point.

you are now making this about efg%. which is fine.

i personally want the player that misses less shots. if you have two guys at 25ppg assuming 0 free throws taken, i'll take the guy with a higher field goal percentage almost every time.

[chazzy]

No, I'm asking what their PPG would be; you gave an example, but just threw out a bunch of numbers without putting them into context. What would those said players PPG be in your example?
I'm saying it doesn't matter in regard to eFG% because the total PPG would include points you got from the line, which isn't accounted for in eFG%. You don't need PPG to calculate eFG%

[chazzy]

And also doesn't tell you things like shot selection and how valuable made and missed shots are to a teams success.
Never said it did; those stats measure scoring efficiency only and should only be used that way

[Fatal9]

Jordan in '89/90 on 2's - 942 / 1719 = .548
LeBron last season on 2's - 639/1141 = .550

On considerably less volume, yes LeBron was more efficient. :oldlol:
So now volume is important but for three point shooting it isn't? Gotcha.

[DMAVS41]

Never said it did; those stats measure scoring efficiency only and should only be used that way

but that is the point. the raw data gives you shot selection and scoring efficiency without manipulation.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm saying it doesn't matter in regard to eFG% because the total PPG would include points you got from the line, which isn't accounted for in eFG%. You don't need PPG to calculate eFG%

I know what you're saying, but your example was all raw data from FGA to FG and 3PT%. We don't know who was more efficient without knowing what their PPG are.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So now volume is important but for three point shooting it isn't? Gotcha.

When did I ever say that? :wtf:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Never said it did; those stats measure scoring efficiency only and should only be used that way

But that's the point, silly goose.

[DMAVS41]

But that's the point, silly goose.

Exactly.

Its like listing Howard's efg and ts. What does it prove? If you don't know his game, you can't tell if he's just a great ft shooter or 3 point shooter. Its misleading.

The raw data is much better. You'd see he takes all 2's and is actually a terrible ft shooter but gets there a lot.

If you just looked at efg or ts you'd never know what kind of player he is or what his shot selection was or anything.

Howard and Nash have the exact same TS% and have close enough efg%. Do those numbers give you a better indication of overall efficiency as the raw data?

[chazzy]

Ohh ok, I thought you guys were saying raw data is superior for efficiency. Yeah it shows you all those other things as well.. I've been talking scoring efficiency this entire time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Exactly.

Its like listing Howard's efg and ts. What does it prove? If you don't know his game, you can't tell if he's just a great ft shooter or 3 point shooter. Its misleading.

The raw data is much better. You'd see he takes all 2's and is actually a terrible ft shooter but gets there a lot.

If you just looked at efg or ts you'd never know what kind of player he is or what his shot selection was or anything.

Right.

According to eFG (solely look at this stat), Dwight and Artis Gilmore are insane 3PT shooters. #1 and #4 all-time as a matter of fact. lol.

You gotta know the game man. Basketball isn't rocket science, which is why coaches always harp on made and missed shots - FG%. Basic statistic that interprets how well you're scoring from the field.

[DMAVS41]

Ohh ok, I thought you guys were saying raw data is superior for efficiency. Yeah it shows you all those other things as well.. I've been talking scoring efficiency this entire time

I'm saying that the raw data gives you a more accurate picture of a players efficiency.

I'm not saying TS or EFG are worthless. I'm saying I'd rather see all the variables going into an equation than the outcome of the equation itself. I want to know if one player is taking 5 threes a game compared to 1 for another. I want to know if one player is making 10% more of his free throws and on what volume.

TS doesn't give you that stuff. It just spits out one number that in my opinion can often be misleading.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ohh ok, I thought you guys were saying raw data is superior for efficiency. Yeah it shows you all those other things as well.. I've been talking scoring efficiency this entire time

All good. When we talk about 'beast measure', usually things like shot selection, made/missed fieldgoals being important to your team, etc., is included. Strictly efficiency and no context on how the player impacts the game, well yeah, eFG and TS% are your stats because that's all they account for... numbers.

[chazzy]

I'm saying that the raw data gives you a more accurate picture of a players efficiency.

I'm not saying TS or EFG are worthless. I'm saying I'd rather see all the variables going into an equation than the outcome of the equation itself. I want to know if one player is taking 5 threes a game compared to 1 for another. I want to know if one player is making 10% more of his free throws and on what volume.

TS doesn't give you that stuff. It just spits out one number that in my opinion can often be misleading.
Then why don't you mind when people only list FG%? Ideally I guess you would want to see FGM/FGA, 3PA and %, FTA and %, along with eFG% and TS%, but I just don't see how only listing someones TS% is any more BS than only listing someone's FG%. Neither one tells the full story on how someone is getting their points, and at least TS% accounts for points earned that FG% disregards completely.

If TS% doesn't account for the misses, then FG% doesn't account for freethrows taken/made and the amount of 3s taken/made.. so there's no reason to call it a bs stat like you always do. TS just gives you a quick gauge of how efficient someone is scoring and nothing's stopping someone from looking up the full set of stats if they want to.

[DMAVS41]

Then why don't you mind when people only list FG%? Ideally I guess you would want to see FGM/FGA, 3PA and %, FTA and %, along with eFG% and TS%, but I just don't see how only listing someones TS% is any more BS than only listing someone's FG%. Neither one tells the full story on how someone is getting their points, and at least TS% accounts for points earned that FG% disregards completely.

If TS% doesn't account for the misses, then FG% doesn't account for freethrows taken/made and the amount of 3s taken/made.. so there's no reason to call it a bs stat like you always do. TS just gives you a quick gauge of how efficient someone is scoring and nothing's stopping someone from looking up the full set of stats if they want to.

I do.

I'm sure I'm guilty of doing that often as well. Its awful and should be called out immediately. I try to list fg%, 3pt%, and ft% when comparing players now. Even then, its not perfect because attempts matter as well of course.

I call TS a bs stat when it spews out something that doesn't jive or is used improperly. Like this whole debate started with Deng this year vs Deng in 07.

I felt that TS does a poor job of showing the true efficiency of Deng. Still do.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Really depends on the player and FG% you're comparing. A guy like Kobe and Dampier obviously wouldn't work, but Kobe vs Wade do. Off the top of my head I know they have similar FGA, and both are jumpshooters.

[The_Yearning]

This is like asking if you would trade Wade for Kobe in 06..

Wade was the up and coming superstar and Kobe is THE SUPERSTAR.. but was still under criticism.. and hasn't proven anything individually.. in terms of winning.


I know you would bring up Kobe's 3 rings at that time..

But him and LeBron had diff. situations.. with all due respect to Kobe..

Lol at this chump.

Did you just compare LeBron to Kobe?

Only person worthy enough to compare to Kobe at this point is Jordan.

[Nash]

Lol at this chump.

Did you just compare LeBron to Kobe?

Only person worthy enough to compare to Kobe at this point is Jordan.
Lebron is the more dominant basketball player though, rings or not.

[The_Yearning]

Lebron is the more dominant basketball player though, rings or not.

Until when it matters.

Brb, joining the Miami Heat to play with D-Wade so he can close and alleviate me of all the pressure.

[kaiiu]

Lebron is a statpadder, Drose is a baller

[Lebron23]

LMAO at this Thread.

[Lebron23]

When you all learn James is not a leader and puts up empty stats? I learned he hard way.


Heat are 3-1 againts the Bulls in this series. I am sure Cleveland LeBron would put up better numbers than Current Rose if he play for the Chicago Bulls. It's not LeBron's fault that Garnett and Rondo outplayed Jamison and Williams last season.

[KOLBCTEW]

LMAO at this Thread.
:cheers:

[Rhinox]

Answer is still no.