Wade vs Kobe 1st team all nba

[juju151111]

Who gets it. Hollinger had Wade and I agree.

[DuMa]

Wade

[Kurosawa0]

Rose
Wade
LeBron
Dirk
Howard

[Dwade305]

Of course Wade

[DMAVS41]

Wade.

Much better offensive numbers and much better defense. Really should not be that much of a debate.

[brownmamba00]

Wade

[Kellogs4toniee]

Defense really separates Wade this year.

[Hulk Hogan]

Kobe unless you're Heat007.... oops I mean Ginobbli2311!

[Dwade305]

In before Yao Ming's foot...........too late

[SavageMode]

Easily Wade....

NEXT.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wade.

Much better offensive numbers and much better defense. Really should not be that much of a debate.

True, but Kobe will still get it.

[Andrei89]

Wade:bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gotta go with Kobe since he and Rose have less help

[Harrison_Barnes]

Wade..

[juju151111]

True, but Kobe will still get it.
This will be funny if Kobe gets all defense this year and hasn't played first team defense since 03

[Andrei89]

Gotta go with Kobe since he and Rose have less help
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KOLBCTEW]

Wade without a doubt.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:oldlol:

[juju151111]

Wade without a doubt.

:oldlol:
:lol :roll:

[Hulk Hogan]

:lol :roll:

Yep the idea that wade will get first all-nba team makes me... :roll: :roll: aswell! :lol

[NY-Knicks]

Kobe.

[themurph]

Wade....

[juju151111]

Yep the idea that wade will get first all-nba team makes me... :roll: :roll: aswell! :lol
I was laughing at Kobe getting it sorry too bad

[DMAVS41]

Can anyone give a good argument for Kobe over Wade this year?

[Dwade305]

Gotta go with Kobe since he and Rose have less help
:roll: :roll: Matter of time before the "Lebron carryng Wade" crew came out

[Hulk Hogan]

I was laughing at Kobe getting it sorry too bad

I hate to see that smile turn into suicidal thoughts come playoff time! :oldlol:

[PHaYze]

Should be Kobe and Wade, both are easily better than Rose.

[PHaYze]

Should be Kobe and Wade, both are easily better than Rose.

[pegasus]

Kobe has been pretty consistent all season long. Yes, he had a few bad games, but overall, he did bring it pretty much every night. I think he should make the 1st team over Wade, because;

1- Wade was horrible in the first 5-6 weeks.
2- Wade did not show up in most of the big games.
3- Wade had Lebron and Bosh; were never even double teamed.
4- Wade's defense is very good but overrated. He does not always puts the same effort, and gets away with slapping and pushing.
5- Wade gets bailed out by refs way too many times, hence his higher ppg and fg%.

[juju151111]

I hate to see that smile turn into suicidal thoughts come playoff time! :oldlol:
It's a regular season award

[A.R.T]

Can anyone give a good argument for Kobe over Wade this year?

how about the fact that wade has been garbage against every contending team this year? he pads his stats against garbage defenses like NY and GS.

defense? give me a break. dude gets torched on the regular by ray because he's lazy defensively, blew a game to chicago by leaving his man wide open (low bball iq) and is just as inconsistent as kobe defensively

kobe is easily the best player on his team, wade is a sidekick. why would a sidekick get first team over an alpha dog? doesn't make sense

that's like saying gasol deserves 1st team at center instead of dwight :facepalm

[T-bomb 25]

Gotta go with Kobe since he and Rose have less helpYou cant be serious can you? Its true that Rose has less help but, Kobe GTFO here he's always had plenty of help and when he didnt they didnt make the playoffs or he and fake show exited stage right against the Suns.:roll: :lol :rolleyes:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't understand you want an argument of Kobe over Wade aside from the fact that Wade is flanked by two all stars?

[NY-Knicks]

You cant be serious can you? Its true that Rose has less help but, Kobe GTFO here he's always had plenty of help and when he didnt they didnt make the playoffs or he and fake show exited stage right against the Suns.:roll: :lol :rolleyes:

This year?

[T-bomb 25]

I don't understand you want an argument of Kobe over Wade aside from the fact that Wade is flanked by two all stars?Ok dude do i have to bring up all the Gasol mvp talk on this idiotic forum earlier in the season....:rolleyes: :facepalm

[T-bomb 25]

This year?So you think Wade has more help than Kobe?:rolleyes: :facepalm

[pegasus]

This year?

Bynum was out for the first two-three months of the season, and Gasol, after a very good start, fizzled out and played horribly, especially on the defensive end. Their bench, other than Odom, sucks, too. SF and PG rotations are the worst among playoff teams.

So, yes, I agree with you that he did not have enough help this year.

[T-bomb 25]

Bynum was out for the first two-three months of the season, and Gasol, after a very good start, fizzled out and played horribly, especially on the defensive end. Their bench, other than Odom, sucks, too. SF and PG rotations are the worst among playoff teams.

So, yes, I agree with you that he did not have enough help this year.Bynum was out last year and the year before that much of the season so what,he its knowones problem but Kobe and the Lakers that their fake ass #2 option that everyone claimed was the MVP back in december and january came back down to earth with all the rest of Laker fans. Remember the Heat is a flawed team and the Bulls were to young and not enough offense,um no dont take the high road because they aint looking like champs this year....:rolleyes: :no:

[NY-Knicks]

So you think Wade has more help than Kobe?:rolleyes: :facepalm

Yes.

He has the best player in the game by his side.

[T-bomb 25]

Yes.

He has the best player in the game by his side.No Wade is the best player...Kobe still has a better cast the same cast that won it all last year excuses....

[hkfosho]

Should be Kobe and Wade, both are easily better than Rose.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1971/rosecoolstory.png (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/rosecoolstory.png/)

[hitmanyr2k]

I think LA's multiple losing streaks and Kobe's up and down play the last month or so is going to keep him off first team this year. Wade will get the nod.

[NY-Knicks]

No Wade is the best player...Kobe still has a better cast the same cast that won it all last year excuses....

I hate Lebron just as much as the next guy, but he's the best in the game. Wade has been way too inconsistent.

Playing next to the best player in the game and a top 5 PF takes him out of the 1st team.

[pegasus]

Bynum was out last year and the year before that much of the season so what,he its knowones problem but Kobe and the Lakers that their fake ass #2 option that everyone claimed was the MVP back in december and january came back down to earth with all the rest of Laker fans. Remember the Heat is a flawed team and the Bulls were to young and not enough offense,um no dont take the high road because they aint looking like champs this year....:rolleyes: :no:

In another thread, I listed them as the number 1 contender for the title, so no one is taking the high road. We are talking about the amount of help Kobe has had this year in REGULAR season. I'm confident that they will step up their games in the playoffs.

[pegasus]

I think LA's multiple losing streaks and Kobe's up and down play the last month or so is going to keep him off first team this year. Wade will get the nod.

The exact same thing applies to Wade, and he definitely had more help.

[T-bomb 25]

I hate Lebron just as much as the next guy, but he's the best in the game. Wade has been way too inconsistent.

Playing next to the best player in the game and a top 5 PF takes him out of the 1st team.I have to give it to Wade...and Bosh aint a top 5 PF but Pau is.

[LilBTheBasedGod]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1971/rosecoolstory.png (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/rosecoolstory.png/)
:oldlol:

[pegasus]

I have to give it to Wade...and Bosh aint a top 5 PF but Pau is.

In no particular order (this season):

Bosh, Dirk, Amare, LA, KG, Pau.

That's six, but Bosh is right there with KG and Pau for the 4th or 5th spot.

[PHaYze]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1971/rosecoolstory.png (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/rosecoolstory.png/)

Wow, so now Rose > Kobe/Wade?

Can't be serious.

[NY-Knicks]

I have to give it to Wade...and Bosh aint a top 5 PF but Pau is.

Oh come on, his production has gone down since he joined the Heat. But before that people were saying he's top 3 / better than Amar'e and all that.

If the Heat have an MVP, his name would be Lebron James. Why do you think Wade doesn't get any attention in MVP lists or from the media? He's not seen as the top dog anymore. I like Wade, before this season he was one of my favorite players, but he just is not better than Lebron.

You don't see Gasol anywhere near the First-Team, now do you?

It's a close race between Rose, Kobe and Wade and in my opinion Kobe and Rose deserve to get the guards spots.

[T-bomb 25]

In no particular order (this season):

Bosh, Dirk, Amare, LA, KG, Pau.

That's six, but Bosh is right there with KG and Pau for the 4th or 5th spot.I would say David West is better than Bosh atleast statistically Love and Griffin had better years than him to i'd say he is about = to Boozer.

[NY-Knicks]

I would say David West is better than Bosh to so that puts him at 7...

troll.

[hitmanyr2k]

The exact same thing applies to Wade,

It should but LA's struggles and Kobe's play are fresh in everyone's minds right now. Bad time to slump


and he definitely had more help.

I wouldn't say that. Having the best frontline in the NBA comes in handy. Bynum, Gasol, and Odom (could have been an all-star this year) are great help. And before you say Bynum was out 2-3 months again no he wasn't lol. He was out for about a month and a couple of weeks and was back on the court mid December. If he had missed 2-3 months like you said he wouldn't have come back until January or all-star break.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Id give it to Wade but Artest isn't a top 5 SF but LeBron is.

People come up with more and more arbitrary reasons why we have to pretend Wade and LeBron currently are not playing with more "help" than Kobe has in his entire NBA career.

[Mr. Incredible]

Wade.

This shouldn't even be debatable.
:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Does having the worst backcourt supporting cast in the league come in handy too?

[T-bomb 25]

troll.STFU the Knicks dont play defense,now is that trolling? its my opinion that Bosh isnt a top 5 PF anyone can get stats on a loosing team like last years Raptors,he's soft and he's a jump shooter...

[Rnbizzle]

Wade. I'm not sure who'll get it though..

[NY-Knicks]

STFU the Knicks dont play defense,now is that trolling? its my opinion that Bosh isnt a top 5 PF anyone can get stats on a loosing team like last years Raptors,he's soft and he's a jump shooter...

No, saying the Knicks don't play D isn't trolling.

Saying West > Chris Bosh is. :lol

[nba_55]

Wade!
Better offensive numbers, better defensive numbers!
And that despite playing with the best player in the NBA.

[T-bomb 25]

No, saying the Knicks don't play D isn't trolling.

Saying West > Chris Bosh is. :lolTheir both jumpshooting PF's but West plays better "D" :lol

[SinJackal]

Kobe unless you're Heat007.... oops I mean Ginobbli2311!

Pretty much every non Kobe homer said Wade.

[bl2k8]

Rosse
Bryant
James
Nowitzki
Howard

should look like this, they may give Amare the nod over Dirk though

[-M-I]

Wade should get it. Kobe probably will. Who cares though.

I think we'll all be trolled and Kobe will make it to the First Team All-Defense again.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Wade is cleary better

[baccano]

Wade...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rosse
Bryant
James
Nowitzki
Howard

should look like this, they may give Amare the nod over Dirk though

And why does Kobe deserve it over Wade?

[Fatal9]

Kobe fan here and I'd give it to Wade. Rose should be the one getting bumped down to second team though.

[glidedrxlr22]

Wade. :bowdown:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Apparently ESPN moved Wade to second team.
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110408-10/nba-awards
Personally I would put both Kobe and Wade on 1st team.

[donald_trump]

i think my opinion of the nba might sour if wade is not in the first team. hes been the best guard this year at either the point guard position or the shooting guard position. you could argue derrick rose considering what hes doing in chicago, but individually its wade.

and hes not been poor against contending teams, hes been poor against boston, thats it. his numbers are quite lackluster against LA, though anyone who watched those games would tell you he played great.

[PJR]

When LeBron joined the Heat, you knew Wade was going to lose some individual media recognition. For whatever reason, Wade never gets that full respect. So he'll probably end up getting jobbed, even though he's shooting friggin 50% from the field, and pretty much leading all guards in every advanced metric that there is. I doubt he cares, tho. In the end, it's all about winning.

[dyna]

Wade

[Colby Brian]

kobe and rose will both be on 1st team

[Replay32]

Wade should be on the 1st team. But it will be kobe. :facepalm

[Disaprine]

Should be Kobe and Wade, both are easily better than Rose.
this

[comerb]

Who gets it. Hollinger had Wade and I agree.

Wade. He was more efficient on offense and made more of an impact on defense.

[samballs]

Wade

[whoartthou]

wade is >> kobe defensively this year. Hell a lot of kobe's 1st team all defensives he did not deserve IMHO.

[VishaltotheG]

Blade

[seoerizer]

Please let Kobe go, he is too old.

[DMAVS41]

This year will officially let us know if we should pay any attention to all nba or all defense anymore.

If Kobe makes first team all nba or any all defensive team we might as well just not even look at that stuff anymore at all. Or at the very least no differentiate between the different teams.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This year will officially let us know if we should pay any attention to all nba or all defense anymore.

If Kobe makes first team all nba or any all defensive team we might as well just not even look at that stuff anymore at all. Or at the very least no differentiate between the different teams.

lol

[DMAVS41]

lol

Yea, because putting up worse numbers and playing worse defense and having less team success should put a player over the top.

LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yea, because putting up worse numbers and playing worse defense and having less team success should put a player over the top.

LOL

Yeah because anybody who is good enough to be on the second team at worst being on first team invalidates the entire award's history.

Not to mention Wade's "recommittment" to defense was how long ago. Maybe a couple of weeks? We are going to pretend he is Bruce Bowen now?

Kobe has 2 of the 3 of your own criteria on Rose regardless.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah because anybody who is good enough to be on the second team at worst being on first team invalidates the entire award's history.

Kobe has 2 of the 3 of your own criteria on Rose regardless.

Did i say the history? Nope.

I said going forward. Which would be true.

I think Kobe deserves it over Rose actually....or at least I could see the argument.

With Wade and Kobe, there really isn't much of an argument at this point. And Rose and Kobe have debatable numbers. I think I'd take rose's numbers over Kobe's:

Rose - 25/8/4 44.5/33.5/86 efficiency
Kobe - 25/5/5 45/32/82 efficiency

Meh. Actually, Kobe doesn't deserve it over Rose now that I think about it. Rose has better numbers and team success.

Not sure what 2 of 3 criteria you are talking about.

Do you think Kobe's numbers are better than Rose? If so, please explain why.
Obviously Rose has had more team success so that can't be one.
Defense? Ugh. Not sure which player has played better defense. I'd probably go with Kobe, but its really close.

[matts290]

Wade...and I am a Kobe stan for christs sake.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did i say the history? Nope.

I said going forward. Which would be true.

I think Kobe deserves it over Rose actually....or at least I could see the argument.

With Wade and Kobe, there really isn't much of an argument at this point. And Rose and Kobe have debatable numbers. I think I'd take rose's numbers over Kobe's:

Rose - 25/8/4 44.5/33.5/86 efficiency
Kobe - 25/5/5 45/32/82 efficiency

Meh. Actually, Kobe doesn't deserve it over Rose now that I think about it. Rose has better numbers and team success.

Not sure what 2 of 3 criteria you are talking about.

Do you think Kobe's numbers are better than Rose? If so, please explain why.
Obviously Rose has had more team success so that can't be one.
Defense? Ugh. Not sure which player has played better defense. I'd probably go with Kobe, but its really close.

Your first fault is assuming that all nba awards have ever been based solely on the stats and not whatever the random criteria each individual voter has and if they don't suddenly agree to the criteria you chose its a travesty that has tarnished the value of the award going forward. Its comically melodramatic and exposes yourself as a hater who fronts as a man without a bias.

Kobe has the higher PER. Thats what the stat guys have been telling me for years was the best thing out there. :confusedshrug:

The theme of Kobe's defense being overrated is overrated. Nobody actually sits their and watches Kobe play defense all game especially if you are not even a Lakers fan. Playing help defense and enticing the Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo's of the world to shoot is the same defense that led to last year's championship. Who exactly has been lighting him up?

[whoartthou]

Your first fault is assuming that all nba awards have ever been based solely on the stats and not whatever the random criteria each individual voter has and if they don't suddenly agree to the criteria you chose its a travesty that has tarnished the value of the award going forward. Its comically melodramatic and exposes yourself as a hater who fronts as a man without a bias.

Kobe has the higher PER. Thats what the stat guys have been telling me for years was the best thing out there. :confusedshrug:

The theme of Kobe's defense being overrated is overrated. Nobody actually sits their and watches Kobe play defense all game especially if you are not even a Lakers fan. Playing help defense and enticing the Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo's of the world to shoot is the same defense that led to last year's championship. Who exactly has been lighting him up?

kobe has the most luxury in the game in the sense that he does NOT need to play defense. Artest/barnes and gasol/bynum can do all the dirty work. All kobe has to do is chuck chuck chuck

[Yao Ming's Foot]

kobe has the most luxury in the game in the sense that he does NOT need to play defense. Artest/barnes and gasol/bynum can do all the dirty work. All kobe has to do is chuck chuck chuck

Good point. Its pretty much Jordan's defensive supporting cast minus the dozens of all defensive team awards.

[Anaximandro1]

Rose
Wade
LeBron
Dirk
Howard

[trabash]

Rose
Wade
LeBron
Dirk
Howard
This is it.

Wade > Kobe

[bl2k8]

And why does Kobe deserve it over Wade?
Because he doesn't have another guy putting up 26/7/7 on his team, and 15 seasons deep is still leading a title contending team putting up his career averages, in only 33 mpg. Bryant will get first team. Everyone will cry about it being because of rep.

[donald_trump]

Because he doesn't have another guy putting up 26/7/7 on his team, and 15 seasons deep is still leading a title contending team putting up his career averages, in only 33 mpg. Bryant will get first team. Everyone will cry about it being because of rep.

so he should be rewarded for playing less minutes, thus impacting games in less time, scoring less, rebounding less, shooting worse, playing worse defense, winning less games.

wade doesnt have a center averaging 2 blocks per game, or 2 guys putting up double-doubles, he doesnt have a low post threat.

it will be off of rep. he hasnt been better than wade this season. the fact you cant comprehend that is simply ridiculous.

[Lebron23]

Dwayne Wade.

[necya]

Good point. Its pretty much Jordan's defensive supporting cast minus the dozens of all defensive team awards.

:roll:

[24r2]

i hope wade gets it << coming from a kobe fan

[Dragonyeuw]

Because he doesn't have another guy putting up 26/7/7 on his team

Wouldn't this make a case for Wade to actually get it over Kobe? Wade hasn't suffered any major drop-off in stats despite playing with a ball-dominant player in Lebron. In fact, he's greatly improved his rebounding to career high levels, while maintaining his career average in scoring, steals, blocks, field goal percentage. Kobe averages the same stats this year as last year in lesser minutes. Sounds good, but it shows that his usage rate is higher than before in order to maintain the same stats that he would get in more minutes. It also tells me that his stats wouldn't increase with more minutes,other than maybe a point or 2 extra in scoring. Kobe averages 5 assists and rebounds whether he's playing 33 minutes or 36, it's been that way for several seasons now.

[rodman91]

Who cares how much minutes Kobe plays less...If he doesn't have enough stamina to play high minutes its his problem.Wade arguably has better stats in a better team.

Kobe has been in 1st team enough (even when he doesn't deserved it). Wade must be in 1st team this year.

[branslowski]

How you gonna be first team and be second best player on your team, and play like pure shit against most of the great teams and pad stats against scrub teams? Where they do that at?

[Poochymama]

Wade deserves it more.

Wade/Kobe have been very similar on offense, Wade being the slightly better of the two. The thing that really separates them though is defense, and Wade simply crushes Kobe in that regard.

That being said, Kobe deserves the other spot over Rose. Rose will win MVP, but MVP != Best Guard, and there is simply no way you can convince me that Rose is a better guard than Kobe. Much like how Wade is a superior offensive and defensive force to Kobe, the same can be said about Kobe in a comparison to Rose.

So, in order of who deserves the spot the most

1. Wade
2. Bryant
3. Rose

As for who will actually get the spot, thats an entirely different story. It's based much more on how much media hype a player generates as opposed to how good at basketball a player is.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because he doesn't have another guy putting up 26/7/7 on his team, and 15 seasons deep is still leading a title contending team putting up his career averages, in only 33 mpg. Bryant will get first team. Everyone will cry about it being because of rep.

Uh, what does that have to do with him putting up better numbers than Kobe ACROSS the board? Kobe isn't leading anything. Gasol has +4 more win shares than Kobe; name me a second option in history that has accumulated more win shares than the 'first option'. I'll wait.

[Dwade305]

How you gonna be first team and be second best player on your team, and play like pure shit against most of the great teams and pad stats against scrub teams? Where they do that at?
Same thoughts I have about early 2000's Kobe:oldlol:

[B-Easy]

How you gonna be first team and be second best player on your team, and play like pure shit against most of the great teams and pad stats against scrub teams? Where they do that at?

Kobe has bad shooting games every other day .. hes had bad shooting games against good and bad teams.

not to mention Wade is CLEARLY a better defender this year.

[DaHeezy]

how about the fact that wade has been garbage against every contending team this year? he pads his stats against garbage defenses like NY and GS.

defense? give me a break. dude gets torched on the regular by ray because he's lazy defensively, blew a game to chicago by leaving his man wide open (low bball iq) and is just as inconsistent as kobe defensively

kobe is easily the best player on his team, wade is a sidekick. why would a sidekick get first team over an alpha dog? doesn't make sense

that's like saying gasol deserves 1st team at center instead of dwight :facepalm

I'll back this case up

[Chicago Brawls]

Plus 100 replies to a thread discussing between the likes of K. Bryant and D. Wade to occupy the other guard spot in the All NBA 1st Team.

We are not worthy.

:bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

How you gonna be first team and be second best player on your team, and play like pure shit against most of the great teams and pad stats against scrub teams? Where they do that at?

How you gonna be first team playing no defense and chucking up more shots per minute than any player in the league at poor efficiency? Combined with a worse team record despite playing with for the best coach ever with the best front line.

Combined with completely choking down the stretch of the season and losing a ton of huge games and giving up homecourt in the WCF and Finals potentially.

[ukplayer4]

i have no problem with kobe being over wade for all nba first team. the issue i have is why they continue to put him on the all nba defensive team, who is he paying for this? tony allen is THE ONLY great perimeter defender around and there are others guards that deserve it way more than kobe. the year kobe averaged the 35ppg he publicly announced that he couldnt and wasnt comited to playing defense and they still gave him first team defense. he must have laughed himself silly over that one. seriously kobe is at home thinking "what do i have to do not to make all nba defensive team".

[Tide]

We all know Dirk will get the shaft.

Rose
Wade
Kobe
Bron
Howard

[jrong]

Wade's gonna get screwed. Now both Stein and Wilbon have printed their ballots with Rose/Kobe on the first team and added a dismissive statement to the effect, the first team requires no explanation.

This even though Wade's "real stats" are convincingly better than either of theirs, and his advanced stats crush theirs. And his record is record is better than Kobe, and his team went 2-0 against Kobe's team, AND he outplayed Kobe in both games and his defense against Kobe was a vital element in those victories. AND he did all this while playing next to the most ball-dominant player in league history.

And if you want to say, but Wade isn't "the main man" on his team, well, what does that say about Rose and Kobe that Wade outplayed them both as a 1b player? I'll tell you what it says, he's a clear-cut better basketball player than either of them and proved it this year.

It's gotten to the point where there's no logical explanation for how disrespected Wade is. Originally, it was because he came in under the radar, and then it was because he was incorrectly perceived for over a year as Shaq's little buddy. But, he has been playing at an elite level for long enough that there is no feasible way to explain it anymore. The man has the 3rd best averages for any SG EVER, behind MJ and Jerry West (yes, even better than Kobe's, cumulatively).

Actually, I do have a new theory to explain it. Wade is "inconvenient" to the storyline that the media and the league wants to tell. They want to present a "bi-polar" (not in the mental illness sense) NBA, a clash of titans between the two colossuses LeBron and Kobe, with now Rose as the upstart, new kid on the block. The dream-Finals that they are salivating over the prospect of, Heat/Lakers, will be showcased as an epic face-off between these larger-than-life icons. Wade threatens that narrative, so he must be minimalized and marginalized at every turn....

[Heat007]

Wade's gonna get screwed. Now both Stein and Wilbon have printed their ballots with Rose/Kobe on the first team and added a dismissive statement to the effect, the first team requires no explanation.

This even though Wade's "real stats" are convincingly better than either of theirs, and his advanced stats crush theirs. And his record is record is better than Kobe, and his team went 2-0 against Kobe's team, AND he outplayed Kobe in both games and his defense against Kobe was a vital element in those victories. AND he did all this while playing next to the most ball-dominant player in league history.

And if you want to say, but Wade isn't "the main man" on his team, well, what does that say about Rose and Kobe that Wade outplayed them both as a 1b player? I'll tell you what it says, he's a clear-cut better basketball player than either of them and proved it this year.

It's gotten to the point where there's no logical explanation for how disrespected Wade is. Originally, it was because he came in under the radar, and then it was because he was incorrectly perceived for over a year as Shaq's little buddy. But, he has been playing at an elite level for long enough that there is no feasible way to explain it anymore. The man has the 3rd best averages for any SG EVER, behind MJ and Jerry West (yes, even better than Kobe's, cumulatively).

Actually, I do have a new theory to explain it. Wade is "inconvenient" to the storyline that the media and the league wants to tell. They want to present a "bi-polar" (not in the mental illness sense) NBA, a clash of titans between the two colossuses LeBron and Kobe, with now Rose as the upstart, new kid on the block. The dream-Finals that they are salivating over the prospect of, Heat/Lakers, will be showcased as an epic face-off between these larger-than-life icons. Wade threatens that narrative, so he must be minimalized and marginalized at every turn....

:cheers: to the post of the year

[Goliath Uterus]

Wade without question

[jrong]

:cheers: to the post of the year

I'm in the process of making a career transition to full-time writing (I currently write for one website and I should be adding two more shortly). Once I have all my professional-writing ducks lined up in a row, this summer I intend to start my own side endeavor, tentatively titled "The Dwyane Wade Underrated Project."

There is enough material on the web-- videos, stats, archived news articles etc.-- that it is very possible to tell the "true story" of Wade's career, and maybe we can rectify some of the past eight years of media-coverage injustice. If it can get some national attention-- I'm positive the Heat organization would be willing to grant it some publicity and I'm sure if I tweet it to Wade himself, he'll retweet it, and then it will go out to all of his followers. That's the easy part. The next step is to try to get it recognized by some of the very basketball and sports sites/writers who have been responsible for perpetrating exactly what I am describing. But, maybe we can reverse the tide a bit, so that this man is given his due place in history.

[DMAVS41]

I'm in the process of making a career transition to full-time writing (I currently write for one website and I should be adding two more shortly). Once I have all my professional-writing ducks lined up in a row, this summer I intend to start my own side endeavor, tentatively titled "The Dwyane Wade Underrated Project."

There is enough material on the web-- videos, stats, archived news articles etc.-- that it is very possible to tell the "true story" of Wade's career, and maybe we can rectify some of the past eight years of media-coverage injustice. If it can get some national attention-- I'm positive the Heat organization would be willing to grant it some publicity and I'm sure if I tweet it to Wade himself, he'll retweet it, and then it will go out to all of his followers. That's the easy part. The next step is to try to get it recognized by some of the very basketball and sports sites/writers who have been responsible for perpetrating exactly what I am describing. But, maybe we can reverse the tide a bit, so that this man is given his due place in history.

I applaud the effort.

I do believe that if the Heat were to win a title this year or next, Wade will begin to get the credit he deserves.

The funniest part about this whole thing is that if the Heat were to win 2 titles in the next 6 years and Wade continues to play at a high level....

He'll retire and it will get people actually talking about his career. And when they do, people will say:

"Holy shit. This guy has arguably the 2nd best numbers of all time at the sg position. He has one of the best finals ever. He has three titles. Holy shit. This guy is one of the 15 best players ever."

It will be hilarious. By far the most under-rated player all time currently when discussing all time greats.

You might want to incorporate Tony Parker into your web site as well. He's also grossly under-rated.

Maybe you could make your website about under-rated players in general while focusing/starting with Wade.

Good ideas though. Look forward to it.

[donald_trump]

How you gonna be first team and be second best player on your team, and play like pure shit against most of the great teams and pad stats against scrub teams? Where they do that at?

youre absolutely right.

we can completely cross off kobes all first selections in 02, 03 and 04 then while playing next to shaq. thanks for pointing that out branslowski.

[jrong]

I applaud the effort.

I do believe that if the Heat were to win a title this year or next, Wade will begin to get the credit he deserves.

The funniest part about this whole thing is that if the Heat were to win 2 titles in the next 6 years and Wade continues to play at a high level....

He'll retire and it will get people actually talking about his career. And when they do, people will say:

"Holy shit. This guy has arguably the 2nd best numbers of all time at the sg position. He has one of the best finals ever. He has three titles. Holy shit. This guy is one of the 15 best players ever."

It will be hilarious. By far the most under-rated player all time currently when discussing all time greats.

You might want to incorporate Tony Parker into your web site as well. He's also grossly under-rated.

Maybe you could make your website about under-rated players in general while focusing/starting with Wade.

Good ideas though. Look forward to it.

Thanks. Plus, I wouldn't be doing this solely for the betterment of Wade's status and legacy. You can be damn sure I plan to get paid off of this. Look at a guy like John Krolik. Unless I'm mistaken he was/is a college student who started a Cavs/LBJ website, and it became popular enough that he was picked up by the ESPN/Truehoop Network. Hell, I live 20 minutes from ESPN!

[G-Funk]

Batman>>>Robin

[ukplayer4]

I applaud the effort.

I do believe that if the Heat were to win a title this year or next, Wade will begin to get the credit he deserves.

The funniest part about this whole thing is that if the Heat were to win 2 titles in the next 6 years and Wade continues to play at a high level....

He'll retire and it will get people actually talking about his career. And when they do, people will say:

"Holy shit. This guy has arguably the 2nd best numbers of all time at the sg position. He has one of the best finals ever. He has three titles. Holy shit. This guy is one of the 15 best players ever."

It will be hilarious. By far the most under-rated player all time currently when discussing all time greats.




some good and fair points, i have often felt this about wade in terms of what he has done, however his accomplishments from this point onwards are certainly going to be overshadowed. lebron is just so much more consistent, not to mention the edge in dominance.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Poor Wade fanboys have been minimizing Kobe's 1st 3 championships with Shaq for years and act dismayed when Wade is given the sidekick status that he begged for. :oldlol:

[IGOTGAME]

Wade's gonna get screwed. Now both Stein and Wilbon have printed their ballots with Rose/Kobe on the first team and added a dismissive statement to the effect, the first team requires no explanation.

This even though Wade's "real stats" are convincingly better than either of theirs, and his advanced stats crush theirs. And his record is record is better than Kobe, and his team went 2-0 against Kobe's team, AND he outplayed Kobe in both games and his defense against Kobe was a vital element in those victories. AND he did all this while playing next to the most ball-dominant player in league history.

And if you want to say, but Wade isn't "the main man" on his team, well, what does that say about Rose and Kobe that Wade outplayed them both as a 1b player? I'll tell you what it says, he's a clear-cut better basketball player than either of them and proved it this year.

It's gotten to the point where there's no logical explanation for how disrespected Wade is. Originally, it was because he came in under the radar, and then it was because he was incorrectly perceived for over a year as Shaq's little buddy. But, he has been playing at an elite level for long enough that there is no feasible way to explain it anymore. The man has the 3rd best averages for any SG EVER, behind MJ and Jerry West (yes, even better than Kobe's, cumulatively).

Actually, I do have a new theory to explain it. Wade is "inconvenient" to the storyline that the media and the league wants to tell. They want to present a "bi-polar" (not in the mental illness sense) NBA, a clash of titans between the two colossuses LeBron and Kobe, with now Rose as the upstart, new kid on the block. The dream-Finals that they are salivating over the prospect of, Heat/Lakers, will be showcased as an epic face-off between these larger-than-life icons. Wade threatens that narrative, so he must be minimalized and marginalized at every turn....

coaches vote for all nba teams. i don't think the coaches are conspiring against wade.

[Vragrant]

Sadly Kobe will get first team All NBA along with Rose, two players he is currently superior too. Kobe will be get it because he's "Kobe".

Its such a shame that one of the best guards of all tme and a future all time great like Wade gets cheated out of All defense and All NBA teams by players who currently are not as good as him. Plus he gets cheated out of this while he's still in his prime. I honestly think Wade should have at least 2 first team All NBA defense selections. Particularly in the 08-09 season. (During the season, Wade became the first player in NBA history to accumulate at least 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season).

The only solace is that the with Boston reeling from the Perkins trade, and how favourably the Heat match up with the Lakers, Wade has the opportunity to win a second Finals MVP trophy. The only caveat is getting through the guantlet of Boston/Chicago/LA to do it.

That is one alternate career legacy of Wade. He could become the alltime great who never got the respect he truly deserved but always came up big when it matters. I'm really pulling for the Heat to win the title.

[jrong]

coaches vote for all nba teams. i don't think the coaches are conspiring against wade.

Well, Wade's still screwed then. Kobe's "legend" status will carry the day in their minds. The fact is Kobe's reputation is secure as a top 10 player. Wade has virtually no chance to be a top 10 player. Top 15 is likely his ceiling, and everything that happens in the next few years affects where he'll eventually end up. But, I get the feeling that it hasn't dawned on a lot of people in the basketball world that he's top 50 yet.

Bottom line, he's the best guard in the league and he backed it up this year. So give his damn 1st-team spot already.

[DMAVS41]

Well, Wade's still screwed then. Kobe's "legend" status will carry the day in their minds. The fact is Kobe's reputation is secure as a top 10 player. Wade has virtually no chance to be a top 10 player. Top 15 is likely his ceiling, and everything that happens in the next few years affects where he'll eventually end up. But, I get the feeling that it hasn't dawned on a lot of people in the basketball world that he's top 50 yet.

Bottom line, he's the best guard in the league and he backed it up this year. So give his damn 1st-team spot already.

Yea.

Bill Simmons admitted that he totally screwed up when ranking Wade in his book the first time out.

The new version has Wade at 29 all time right now.

[IGOTGAME]

Well, Wade's still screwed then. Kobe's "legend" status will carry the day in their minds. The fact is Kobe's reputation is secure as a top 10 player. Wade has virtually no chance to be a top 10 player. Top 15 is likely his ceiling, and everything that happens in the next few years affects where he'll eventually end up. But, I get the feeling that it hasn't dawned on a lot of people in the basketball world that he's top 50 yet.

Bottom line, he's the best guard in the league and he backed it up this year. So give his damn 1st-team spot already.

no he hasn't... I don't even think he has had a good year. The Heat's record against top teams says it all. If you are playing with that much talent you have to get it done...and against the top teams he hasnt this year. Rose has had a better year.

[jrong]

no he hasn't... I don't even think he has had a good year. The Heat's record against top teams says it all. If you are playing with that much talent you have to get it done...and against the top teams he hasnt this year. Rose has had a better year.

Lol, yeah, tell me about Rose and his 44% shooting. Tell me about how he takes 20 shots to score 25 pts, while Wade takes 18 shots to score 26 pts.

Then tell me what you think Wade's numbers would have been if he didn't play next to LeBron (hint: he's a 50% shooter and has averaged as many as 22 shots in the past-- do the math). Then tell me what you think Rose's numbers would have been if he played next to LeBron.

And then you can tell me what you think the Heat's record would have been if Thibodeau was their coach (I'm gonna say... 79 - 3?)

Wade is so much better than Rose it's not worth discussing. We haven't even talked about defense, rebounding. Rose has had what 2 or 3 40 pt games in his career. Wade had 13 of them in one season. Rose is maybe 2/3 the player Wade is.

Has Rose sent his thank you gift to LeBron for "the Decision" yet? Because he was by far the biggest beneficiary.

[DMAVS41]

no he hasn't... I don't even think he has had a good year. The Heat's record against top teams says it all. If you are playing with that much talent you have to get it done...and against the top teams he hasnt this year. Rose has had a better year.

You are speaking to an extremely small sample size and a specific criteria. All games count the same in the regular season. How a player and team performs against average to poor competition is often the difference in a regular season.

At times, Wade ha played poorly this year. That is true with every single player in the league for pretty much any year other than the extremely rare years.

Overall, Wade is the best guard in the league. He's the most efficient guard by a wide margin considering volume. He's a much better defender right now than Kobe and Rose. He's been an excellent rebounder and given how often and where he gets the ball, his assists are very solid.

He's the best guard in the game right now. I don't see any argument otherwise. The only argument is about team success. Which is just that....TEAM SUCCESS.

[jrong]

coaches vote for all nba teams. i don't think the coaches are conspiring against wade.

BTW, I just looked it up. Unless they've changed the format, it's the writers again who vote for the all NBA teams.

[PJR]

no he hasn't... I don't even think he has had a good year.

Well then, you're a moron. :oldlol:

[donald_trump]

it would suck if wade does get left off because it will simply be because of basketball politics.

[donald_trump]

Well then, you're a moron. :oldlol:

26/6/5 on 50% shooting isnt considered a good season these days. especially for a guard.

edit: its so bad a season that only 15 players in history have done it. if i included blocks and steals, i think that list would drop to about 4 or 5.

[Heat007]

26/6/5 on 50% shooting isnt considered a good season these days. especially for a guard.

edit: its so bad a season that only 15 players in history have done it. if i included blocks and steals, i think that list would drop to about 4 or 5.

heh

[DMAVS41]

heh

How high are the standards on here for some players? It seems to me that Lebron, Wade, and Dirk have by far the highest standards out of any player in the league currently or this era.

What would ISH say about Shaq for his first 7 years? The dude didn't win a title until his 8th year....and he needed an elite shooting guard to do it.

Was Shaq not good and over-rated?

It seems that both Lebron and Dirk were expected to win with the least amount of help any superstar has ever won with.

What about Wade? He has a title and finals MVP in only 7 completed years. What is the argument against Wade at this point? Great numbers in both the regular season and playoffs. Led a team to a title. Finals MVP. Arguably the greatest finals performance ever. Gold medal as the best or 2nd best player on the team. Final Four appearance in college.

One of the best guard defenders in the league throughout his career.

What more do people want? Do people rank stockton and malone over wade? why?

As for this year, Wade is the best guard in the game and has distanced himself from Kobe as the best sg in the game. Better defense and better offense. More team success. What more do people want? My god, the standards for some players are ridiculous.

[RJChPD]

Wade's gonna get screwed. Now both Stein and Wilbon have printed their ballots with Rose/Kobe on the first team and added a dismissive statement to the effect, the first team requires no explanation.

This even though Wade's "real stats" are convincingly better than either of theirs, and his advanced stats crush theirs. And his record is record is better than Kobe, and his team went 2-0 against Kobe's team, AND he outplayed Kobe in both games and his defense against Kobe was a vital element in those victories. AND he did all this while playing next to the most ball-dominant player in league history.

And if you want to say, but Wade isn't "the main man" on his team, well, what does that say about Rose and Kobe that Wade outplayed them both as a 1b player? I'll tell you what it says, he's a clear-cut better basketball player than either of them and proved it this year.

It's gotten to the point where there's no logical explanation for how disrespected Wade is. Originally, it was because he came in under the radar, and then it was because he was incorrectly perceived for over a year as Shaq's little buddy. But, he has been playing at an elite level for long enough that there is no feasible way to explain it anymore. The man has the 3rd best averages for any SG EVER, behind MJ and Jerry West (yes, even better than Kobe's, cumulatively).

Actually, I do have a new theory to explain it. Wade is "inconvenient" to the storyline that the media and the league wants to tell. They want to present a "bi-polar" (not in the mental illness sense) NBA, a clash of titans between the two colossuses LeBron and Kobe, with now Rose as the upstart, new kid on the block. The dream-Finals that they are salivating over the prospect of, Heat/Lakers, will be showcased as an epic face-off between these larger-than-life icons. Wade threatens that narrative, so he must be minimalized and marginalized at every turn....
:oldlol: I've never seen a fan rep their favorite player as much as you do bro. More power to you. BTW, Wade deserves and will be first team this year. How do you think the heat will do in the playoffs this year ?

[Heat007]

How high are the standards on here for some players? It seems to me that Lebron, Wade, and Dirk have by far the highest standards out of any player in the league currently or this era.

What would ISH say about Shaq for his first 7 years? The dude didn't win a title until his 8th year....and he needed an elite shooting guard to do it.

Was Shaq not good and over-rated?

It seems that both Lebron and Dirk were expected to win with the least amount of help any superstar has ever won with.

What about Wade? He has a title and finals MVP in only 7 completed years. What is the argument against Wade at this point? Great numbers in both the regular season and playoffs. Led a team to a title. Finals MVP. Arguably the greatest finals performance ever. Gold medal as the best or 2nd best player on the team. Final Four appearance in college.

One of the best guard defenders in the league throughout his career.

What more do people want? Do people rank stockton and malone over wade? why?

As for this year, Wade is the best guard in the game and has distanced himself from Kobe as the best sg in the game. Better defense and better offense. More team success. What more do people want? My god, the standards for some players are ridiculous.

yup. Some people just don't get it.

Most underrated player of all time. It's a travesty that he hasn't gotten 1st defensive team and more 1st all nba type selections. I've never seen a sham like it for such a great all-around player on offense/defense..

not ever.

[DMAVS41]

yup. Some people just don't get it.

Most underrated player of all time. It's a travesty that he hasn't gotten 1st defensive team and more all nba type selections. I've never seen a sham like it for such a great all-around player on offense/defense..

not ever.

Yep.

Here is an interesting question. What if the Heat win it this year and Wade puts up 27/6/5 on good efficiencies? Lets say Lebron wins finals MVP.

He would have two titles in 8 years, a finals MVP, and one of the best finals ever.

Where does Wade rank all time after that? Simmons already had him at 29 coming into this year all time. Does this put Wade in the top 20? Top 15?

What would make Robinson or Malone or Barkley or KG better than Wade other than longevity?

I'll keep saying it. With some luck and some titles, in 5 years people will rank Wade in the top 15 all time and its going to be crazy when the basketball world comes to the realization of just how good Wade has actually been.

[hitmanyr2k]

Wade's efficiency is so overblown. I think he's the biggest cherrypicker I've seen in my entire time of watching the NBA. Dude is constantly leaking out for those cheap buckets :oldlol:

[tpols]

Wade's efficiency is so overblown. I think he's the biggest cherrypicker I've seen in my entire time of watching the NBA. Dude is constantly leaking out for those cheap buckets :oldlol:
This.. I've said it time and time again.. wade is great in the open court and at finishing especially in transition. In other words, he excels throughout the normal course of a game. But, when you slow the game down and ask him to iso people in crunch time like most superstar wings are asked to do he literally turns into joe johnson. In one of the most important facets of the game, leading one's team to victory in crunch time, kobe blows wade out of the water by a mile..

[derb2k2]

This.. I've said it time and time again.. wade is great in the open court and at finishing especially in transition. In other words, he excels throughout the normal course of a game. But, when you slow the game down and ask him to iso people in crunch time like most superstar wings are asked to do he literally turns into joe johnson. In one of the most important facets of the game, leading one's team to victory in crunch time, kobe blows wade out of the water by a mile..


ahahahhaahahahaahha

[tpols]

ahahahhaahahahaahha
Have you seen wade in crunch time this year? He's non-existant. Lebron is the clear cut best player and number one option on the heat. It's undebatable. He came into WADE's house and now he controls the tempo on offense and defense, and he is the guy who is always given the ball in crunch time. What more evidence do you need to know that wade is playing as a sidekick right now? We are literally comparing the stats of a second option player to a first option player.

[DMAVS41]

Have you seen wade in crunch time this year? He's non-existant. Lebron is the clear cut best player and number one option on the heat. It's undebatable. He came into WADE's house and now he controls the tempo on offense and defense, and he is the guy who is always given the ball in crunch time. What more evidence do you need to know that wade is playing as a sidekick right now? We are literally comparing the stats of a second option player to a first option player.


You over state Wade's crunch time weaknesses. You also discount Wade's ability to create for his teammates much better than a player like Kobe.

I'd take Kobe over Wade in crunch time offensively. Certainly not defensively though. Wade has a knack for making big plays defensively late in games.

Wade just struggles in crunch time when his team isn't good because he's more of a creator than a scorer late because of his inconsistent shot. He was very good in crunch time in his title run, in 04, and in 05. He took over many games late.

I think its difficult for Wade and Lebron for that matter because its hard to play with two similar players on the floor in crunch time. It would be like putting Kobe and Melo on the same team. I think they would both be worse late in games. Just the nature of basketball.

Also, its not like the Lakers have torn up the league this year in close games. Yes, the Heat have been worse, but Lebron deserves a lot of the blame for that.

Funny how Wade was the one to close out the game against the Lakers and right the ship.

So again.

Better numbers? Wade
Better defense? Wade
Team Success? Wade

What more do you want?

[tpols]

You over state Wade's crunch time weaknesses. You also discount Wade's ability to create for his teammates much better than a player like Kobe.

I'd take Kobe over Wade in crunch time offensively. Certainly not defensively though. Wade has a knack for making big plays defensively late in games.

Wade just struggles in crunch time when his team isn't good because he's more of a creator than a scorer late because of his inconsistent shot. He was very good in crunch time in his title run, in 04, and in 05. He took over many games late.

I think its difficult for Wade and Lebron for that matter because its hard to play with two similar players on the floor in crunch time. It would be like putting Kobe and Melo on the same team. I think they would both be worse late in games. Just the nature of basketball.

Also, its not like the Lakers have torn up the league this year in close games. Yes, the Heat have been worse, but Lebron deserves a lot of the blame for that.

Funny how Wade was the one to close out the game against the Lakers and right the ship.
Wade has one good defensive play in the clutch that I can remember and that was the steal in the laker game. He doesn't have that much impact defensively in the clutch. That's reaching hard man.

And offensively he's been terrible. Terrible in crunch time. And terrible against the top teams.

And yes one of the reasons wade struggles in crunch time is because his shot sucks. When defenses slow down and games become possession by pssession crawls offensive players often have to resort to more midrange and long range shots. That is why melo, kobe and dirk have always been great crunch time players. They have great range. Wade doesn't. And it's the reason he falls behind kobe in one of the most important areas where a superstar wing has to excel.. carrying his team in the clutch.

[detroitdogg]

This.. I've said it time and time again.. wade is great in the open court and at finishing especially in transition. In other words, he excels throughout the normal course of a game. But, when you slow the game down and ask him to iso people in crunch time like most superstar wings are asked to do he literally turns into joe johnson. In one of the most important facets of the game, leading one's team to victory in crunch time, kobe blows wade out of the water by a mile..
Lmao, Wade is a much better half court player than Bron you stupid fukk, BRON CAN'T BEAT 2 DEFENDERS IN THE HALFCOURT, that's why he pulls up so much (props to his jumper), Wade has played in the slowest offense in the league in his career, Miami was never a transitional team, dumbass *****, you don't know what the fukk you are talking about.

[DMAVS41]

Wade has one good defensive play in the clutch that I can remember and that was the steal in the laker game. He doesn't have that much impact defensively in the clutch. That's reaching hard man.

And offensively he's been terrible. Terrible in crunch time. And terrible against the top teams.

And yes one of the reasons wade struggles in crunch time is because his shot sucks. When defenses slow down and games become possession by pssession crawls offensive players often have to resort to more midrange and long range shots. That is why melo, kobe and dirk have always been great crunch time players. They have great range. Wade doesn't. And it's the reason he falls behind kobe in one of the most important areas where a superstar wing has to excel.. carrying his team in the clutch.

Kobe shoots a terrible percentage in the clutch this year. He hero jacks them out of so many games.

I'd understand if you were comparing Wade to Dirk or something in the clutch, but Kobe? Please. The Lakers routinely struggle in the clutch and have for years.

You are reaching so hard and trying to focus on one specific thing. And that one specific thing hasn't even led to more wins. LOL

Again.

Better numbers? Wade
Better defense? Wade
Better advanced stats? Wade
More team success? Wade

LOL. End of story. You reaching big time. Its about the total body of work. Not just a few specific things that haven't even led to more team or individual success.

[tpols]

Better numbers? Wade
Better defense? Wade
Team Success? Wade

Better numbers as the second option. He gets a lot of free looks off lebron, and as stated before, is a huge cherry picker. His stats don't hold up at all in the big time games this year and in the clutch. I'll have someone post the numbers.. wade's are god awful.

He has been a better defender than kobe this year but his defensive impact as a whole isn't on some extraordinary level. We're comparing perimeter guys.. defense is about 30-40% of how much they impact the game.

Team success as the second option. Without lebron this team isn't going anywhere. Don't get it backwards.. lebron is a hell of a lot more important to this team's success than wade is. He has been the driving force in every big win I've seen the heat get this year.

[Rnbizzle]

Wade has one good defensive play in the clutch that I can remember and that was the steal in the laker game. He doesn't have that much impact defensively in the clutch. That's reaching hard man.

And offensively he's been terrible. Terrible in crunch time. And terrible against the top teams.

And yes one of the reasons wade struggles in crunch time is because his shot sucks. When defenses slow down and games become possession by pssession crawls offensive players often have to resort to more midrange and long range shots. That is why melo, kobe and dirk have always been great crunch time players. They have great range. Wade doesn't. And it's the reason he falls behind kobe in one of the most important areas where a superstar wing has to excel.. carrying his team in the clutch.
What.. I don't even..

Wade is one of the clutchest sg's of all time moron :lol

[tpols]

Kobe shoots a terrible percentage in the clutch this year. He hero jacks them out of so many games.

Post 82 games.. kobe shoots like 6% higher than wade and scores way more points.:oldlol:

[PJR]

This.. I've said it time and time again.. wade is great in the open court and at finishing especially in transition. In other words, he excels throughout the normal course of a game. But, when you slow the game down and ask him to iso people in crunch time like most superstar wings are asked to do he literally turns into joe johnson. In one of the most important facets of the game, leading one's team to victory in crunch time, kobe blows wade out of the water by a mile..


C'mon. This honestly a load of shit, especially the bold.

Could Joe Johnson avg 27-6-5 on 62% shooting against the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals like Wade did? A team that was arguably one of the better defensive teams in the halfcourt during that time? Could Joe Johnson take over a Finals series like Wade did in 06?

Someone brough it up here earlier, I wasn't really buying it, but yeah now I agree Wade really is the most underrated player in NBA history to date right now. Dudes constantly just try to revise his history. Now all he does is get buckets in transistion and on leak outs? Really now? **** outta here...:facepalm :oldlol:

Guy is great. And will be an all time great. And He's EFFICIENT as sh*t. Period. He's the most efficient scoring off guard since Jordan. Even more so than my dude Kobe Bean. Aint nothing you can say to take that away from him.

Tex Winter, one of the greatest basketball minds of all time had this to say on Wade back in 2006:

“I think he’s shown at a very early stage that he’s one of the top guards in basketball history,” Winter said. “He’s got all that talent, but what I really like about him is that he’s one of the most efficient guards to ever play the game.”

I mean there's a reason Lebron went to Miami. And it sure as hell wasn't because of Chris Bosh.

[Droid101]

Should be Wade and Kobe. Rose played worse than both of them this season.

[DMAVS41]

Better numbers as the second option. He gets a lot of free looks off lebron, and as stated before, is a huge cherry picker. His stats don't hold up at all in the big time games this year and in the clutch. I'll have someone post the numbers.. wade's are god awful.

He has been a better defender than kobe this year but his defensive impact as a whole isn't on some extraordinary level. We're comparing perimeter guys.. defense is about 30-40% of how much they impact the game.

Team success as the second option. Without lebron this team isn't going anywhere. Don't get it backwards.. lebron is a hell of a lot more important to this team's success than wade is. He has been the driving force in every big win I've seen the heat get this year.

Considering Gasol's impact trumps Kobe's overall, you could very much argue that Kobe is the 2nd option statistically speaking.

LOL at using the 2nd option argument. You act like Wade hasn't already proven what he can do being the clear cut number 1 option on a team.

Sorry mate. Can't play that card for a former finals MVP with one of the greatest performances of all time.

LOL at saying Bron makes Wade. Absurd.

TPOLS....the worst poster on ISH....at it again.

[tpols]

C'mon. This honestly a load of shit, especially the bold.

Could Joe Johnson avg 27-6-5 on 62% shooting against the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals like Wade did? A team that was arguably one of the better defensive teams in the halfcourt during that time? Could Joe Johnson take over a Finals series like Wade did in 06?

Someone brough it up here I wasn't buying it earlier, but yeah I agree now that Wade really is the most underrated player in NBA history to date right now. Dudes constantly just try to revise his history. Now all he does is get buckets in transistion and on leak outs? Really now? **** outta here...:facepalm :oldlol:

Guy is great. And will be an all time great. And He's EFFICIENT as sh*t. Period. He's the most efficient scoring off guard since Jordan. Even more so than my dude Kobe Bean. Aint nothing you can say to take that away from him.

Tex Winter, one of the greatest basketball minds of all time had this to say on Wade back in 2006:



I mean there's a reason Lebron went to Miami. And it sure as hell wasn't because of Chris Bosh.
Dude we're talking about clutch play.. game winners and production down the last minute stretch of games for THIS YEAR.. he's been terrible.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The best perimeter defenders in Miami are LeBron James and Mike Miller. Stats don't lie. (http://www.backpicks.com/2011/04/11/the-nbas-top-defenders-in-2011/)

[DMAVS41]

Post 82 games.. kobe shoots like 6% higher than wade and scores way more points.:oldlol:

I never said Wade was better than Kobe in the clutch. I said Kobe isn't great. His teams don't win many close games and he hero jacks them out of games.

Post 82 games for Dirk. That is what a true clutch player looks like. Kobe just takes a ton of shots. Thats about it.

[tpols]

Considering Gasol's impact trumps Kobe's overall
No evidence for this.

[DMAVS41]

No evidence for this.

What. Gasol leads Kobe in almost all advanced stats concerning wins produced.

Can't have it both ways.

LOL at Kobe's win shares per 48. Way behind both Gasol and Wade.

Another question.

Do you admit that Dirk is better in the clutch than Kobe this year?

[tpols]

Kobe just takes a ton of shots.
And makes them at a better rate than 95% of the league whle leading the league in points scored in the clutch(last I checked). Sorry man, wade is half the crunch time player kobe is. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

What. Gasol leads Kobe in almost all advanced stats concerning wins produced.

Can't have it both ways.
Not even close. Bynum actually has had more impact than gasol has had when he has played. Odom in the beginning of the season was playing as good as gasol has played all year. Kobe has been the undisputed first option of the lakers this year. Wade has been the undisputed second option of the heat. Facts.:confusedshrug:

[crisoner]

The epic battle of really who is worse...Kobe pro stans or Kobe hating stans

[DMAVS41]

Not even close. Bynum actually has had more impact than gasol has had when he has played. Odom in the beginning of the season was playing as good as gasol has played all year. Kobe has been the undisputed first option of the lakers this year. Wade has been the undisputed second option of the heat. Facts.:confusedshrug:

Facts?

Kobe produces less wins than Gasol and Wade. Just a fact.

Same with offensive win shares and defensive win shares.

Wade has a better offensive and defensive rating as well. Facts.

LOL

[DMAVS41]

And makes them at a better rate than 95% of the league whle leading the league in points scored in the clutch(last I checked). Sorry man, wade is half the crunch time player kobe is. :confusedshrug:

So you admit that Dirk is much better than Kobe in crunch time then.

Please respond.

[detroitdogg]

Not even close. Bynum actually has had more impact than gasol has had when he has played. Odom in the beginning of the season was playing as good as gasol has played all year. Kobe has been the undisputed first option of the lakers this year. Wade has been the undisputed second option of the heat. Facts.:confusedshrug:
Undisputed 2nd option, smh at this nygga, how many games has Wade led his team in scoring, ill let you look that up for yourself dummy.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Facts?

Kobe produces less wins than Gasol and Wade. Just a fact.

Same with offensive win shares and defensive win shares.

LOL

Dirk also produces less wins per minute than Tyson Chandler. Duncan less wins per minute than Manu the last 6 years.

Just a fact :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk also produces less wins per minute than Tyson Chandler. Duncan less wins per minute than Manu the last 6 years.

Just a fact :confusedshrug:

And you are more than welcome to argue that Chandler is better than Dirk or Manu is better than Duncan.

By all means. Go for it.

[chazzy]

Kobe being the catalyst for the Lakers' struggles in crunch time is overstated:


When the game is close down the stretch, the Lakers offense scores 109 points per 100 possessions, which is very close to the 111 they usually score. So, the argument against Kobe as one of the prime performers in crunch time is slightly misleading.

In close games, the Lakers offense has been bad outside of the last 5 minutes, and decent within the last 5 minutes. The defense, on the other hand, has been horrific throughout. With the score within 5 points throughout the 4th quarter, the Lakers are allowing 116 points per 100 possessions (much worse than the worst defense in the league). And in true crunch time, as the Kobe-centric offense improves more than 10 points per 100 possessions, the defense is even worse. With the score within 5 points and less than 5 minutes to play, the Lakers are giving up an astronomically bad 119 points per 100 possessions. Normally, crunch time offenses struggle significantly. Team defense is played with more focus, refs are less likely to call cheap fouls and outside shots are more difficult to make due to pressure and fatigue. These factors and others combine to show a statistical trend that nearly all teams are worse offensively in crunch time situations than during the normal course of a game.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And you are more than welcome to argue that Chandler is better than Dirk or Manu is better than Duncan.

By all means. Go for it.

Why? Then I would look like an idiot like you.

[DMAVS41]

Why? Then I would look like an idiot like you.

So you think the gap between kobe and wade is as big as the gap between dirk and chandler?

And i'm the idiot?

ROFL

[DMAVS41]

Kobe being the catalyst for the Lakers' struggles in crunch time is overstated:

Is that for this year?

[chazzy]

Is that for this year?
Yup. It's bizarre, I had no idea the defense was that bad

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you think the gap between kobe and wade is as big as the gap between dirk and chandler?

And i'm the idiot?

ROFL

I didn't say anything about Wade. The comparison was between the apparent irregularity of undisputed consensus #1 players on the Mavs, Lakers and Spurs and why its so laughable then anybody who takes take stock it to be true "because the formula says so" is an idiot.

[DMAVS41]

Yup. It's bizarre, I had no idea that defense was that bad

I would have thought that actually. The Lakers give up so many easy shots this year late in games and also seem to not secure rebounds well.

The offense has been better overall late. I read something a couple months ago that the Lakers offensive efficiency late in close games is the best its been this year in the Kobe era.

Nobody is saying Kobe isn't good in crunch time. But he's hardly been great this year individually and the Lakers haven't been great in close games as usual.

Some of that horrid defense falls on Kobe as well. His defense has really been lacking all year.

[DMAVS41]

I didn't say anything about Wade. The comparison was between the apparent irregularity of undisputed consensus #1 players on the Mavs, Lakers and Spurs and why its so laughable then anybody who takes take stock it to be true "because the formula says so" is an idiot.

I think you have to put everything into context as usual. Nobody is basing an entire argument off of one thing anyway.

You can't just discount every single stat.

Notice how tpols left. He claimed Kobe is better than Wade based on crunch time performances. He lied and said that Kobe is shooting 6% better than Wade. Flat out lie:

Kobe shoots 40.9% in crunch time
Wade shoots 39.7% in crunch time

He used that as a reason why Kobe is better. When I ask him to apply that same logic to Dirk, he leaves.

Standard.

[chazzy]

Some of that horrid defense falls on Kobe as well. His defense has really been lacking all year.
Sure, some of it, but it takes an entire team effort (or lack of it) to be easily the worst defense in the league during crunch time. Therefore it's a bit of an overstatement to say he's been the major cause for their clutch time struggles, when the offense has actually been fine.

[DMAVS41]

Sure, some of it, but it takes an entire team effort (or lack of it) to be easily the worst defense in the league during crunch time. Therefore it's a bit of an overstatement to say he's been the major cause for their clutch time struggles, when the offense has actually been fine.

Major cause? Yea, thats a bit much. However, when you dominate the ball to the extent Kobe does and shoot so much more than any player, you carry more of the burden. Especially when you have such great teammates. And we all know how iso ball dominance can impact a team in many ways....including rebounding and defense.

I was speaking more to Kobe's career and not just this year.

I just don't like people that lie about stats. Tpols routinely does this. He also claims Kobe is better than Dirk in crunch time, but then turns around and says Kobe is better than Wade because he shoots a better percentage from the field.

Makes no sense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I think you have to put everything into context as usual. Nobody is basing an entire argument off of one thing anyway.

You can't just discount every single stat.

Notice how tpols left. He claimed Kobe is better than Wade based on crunch time performances. He lied and said that Kobe is shooting 6% better than Wade. Flat out lie:

Kobe shoots 40.9% in crunch time
Wade shoots 39.7% in crunch time

He used that as a reason why Kobe is better. When I ask him to apply that same logic to Dirk, he leaves.

Standard.

Kobe does shoot twice as better as Wade in game winning shots last I saw. Maybe he got that confused with "crunch time". Because "crunch time" doesn't have a specific meaning.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe does shoot twice as better as Wade in game winning shots last I saw. Maybe he got that confused with "crunch time". Because "crunch time" doesn't have a specific meaning.

Yep.

Which is why I have repeatedly said I would take Kobe over Wade in crunch time and on game winners.

Not sure what else I'm supposed to say. Why do i have to be the only reasonable person on here?

But when you apply those same standards to Kobe and Dirk in crunch time and on game winners, you and tpols and others won't conceded anything.
:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yep.

Which is why I have repeatedly said I would take Kobe over Wade in crunch time and on game winners.

Not sure what else I'm supposed to say. Why do i have to be the only reasonable person on here?

But when you apply those same standards to Kobe and Dirk in crunch time and on game winners, you and tpols and others won't conceded anything.
:confusedshrug:

What is there to concede? Dirk ranks high on game winning shot percentage. He is also notorious as being the leader of a 1 seed who got bulled by an 8th seed. That makes him a choker because in the history of common basketball vernacular, playoff success was synonymous with clutchness and historical playoff flameout was synonymous with choker. No one asked for a formula calculation before labeling Fisher and Horry clutch. Don't blame Laker fans for Dirk's PR problem, blame the entire history of the NBA and the way the fans and media cover it.

[DMAVS41]

What is there to concede? Dirk ranks high on game winning shot percentage. He is also notorious as being the leader of a 1 seed who got bulled by an 8th seed. That makes him a choker because in the history of common basketball vernacular, playoff success was synonymous with clutchness and historical playoff flameout was synonymous with choker. No one asked for a formula calculation before labeling Fisher and Horry clutch. Don't blame Laker fans for Dirk's PR problem, blame the entire history of the NBA and the way the fans and media cover it.

LOL.

And Kobe's has flamed out with more help and in more big moments than Wade has. So does that make Wade more clutch?

Wade had more success in 04/05/06 with comparable teams against similar competition. Wade was more clutch in the olympics. Wade has never choked in the finals the way Kobe did in 04 or 08. Wade never quit on his team in a game 7.

LOL

Stay consistent please.

And we were talking about this year. You can't rank Kobe over Wade because of crunch time fg% ( a difference of 1%)....and then ignore Dirk shooting 8% better than Kobe.

Whatever. Same old story. The lack of consistency in arguments is hilarious.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL.

And Kobe's has flamed out with more help and in more big moments than Wade has. So does that make Wade more clutch?

Wade had more success in 04/05/06 with comparable teams against similar competition. Wade was more clutch in the olympics. Wade has never choked in the finals the way Kobe did in 04 or 08. Wade never quit on his team in a game 7.

LOL

Stay consistent please.

And we were talking about this year. You can't rank Kobe over Wade because of crunch time fg% ( a difference of 1%)....and then ignore Dirk shooting 8% better than Kobe.

Whatever. Same old story. The lack of consistency in arguments is hilarious.

I don't understand why you are presenting a case to me like I am the official arbiter of "clutch". I am telling you how it is and how it will continue to be for the rest of Dirk's career. No formula will ever change that. You realize that right?

Kobe has more playoff success by far than both Wade and Dirk combined and unless Wade pulls of something dramatic (without LeBron) he will never be considered on Kobe's level. That's just the way its going to be and no amount of whining and hissy fits by you or any other poster will change that. Whether you want to remain to live in your delusional world or admit its true is on you. :confusedshrug:

[The Choken One]

Rose
Kobe
LeBron
Dirk
Howard

[Heat007]

Wade shoots better percentages within games to avoid crunchtime desperation attempts in the first place. When you're a selfish shot jacking chucker you're a desperate little soul.

Wade >

[detroitdogg]

I don't understand why you are presenting a case to me like I am the official arbiter of "clutch". I am telling you how it is and how it will continue to be for the rest of Dirk's career. No formula will ever change that. You realize that right?

Kobe has more playoff success by far than both Wade and Dirk combined and unless Wade pulls of something dramatic (without LeBron) he will never be considered on Kobe's level. That's just the way its going to be and no amount of whining and hissy fits by you or any other poster will change that. Whether you want to remain to live in your delusional world or admit its true is on you. :confusedshrug:
His career stats currently shyts on Kobes, this is not debateable, if he finishes with 4 rings he would have easily had the better career, GTFOH with your weak ass assumptions.

[donald_trump]

This.. I've said it time and time again.. wade is great in the open court and at finishing especially in transition. In other words, he excels throughout the normal course of a game. But, when you slow the game down and ask him to iso people in crunch time like most superstar wings are asked to do he literally turns into joe johnson. In one of the most important facets of the game, leading one's team to victory in crunch time, kobe blows wade out of the water by a mile..

did you happen to watch the boston series last year?

wades one of the best half court players in history. the way he can break down a defense, split screens, the fact that he is so agile.

of course hes second to lebron. everyone is. you make this seem like a big deal. though undeniable and definite best player? no. theres been turns where wade has been the best player on the night.

and most heat fans, and im sure even bron fans will agree that for the majority of the year it was wade who was doing much better in the halfcourt than lebron. only recently has lebron been dominating and thats after shooting 60%.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

His career stats currently shyts on Kobes, this is not debateable, if he finishes with 4 rings he would have easily had the better career, GTFOH with your weak ass assumptions.

Do you know who Adrian Dantley is?

[detroitdogg]

did you happen to watch the boston series last year?

wades one of the best half court players in history. the way he can break down a defense, split screens, the fact that he is so agile.

of course hes second to lebron. everyone is. you make this seem like a big deal. though undeniable and definite best player? no. theres been turns where wade has been the best player on the night.

and most heat fans, and im sure even bron fans will agree that for the majority of the year it was wade who was doing much better in the halfcourt than lebron. only recently has lebron been dominating and thats after shooting 60%.
And thats exactly why I told dude he does not know what the fukk he is talkin about, LMAO at Wade being a bad halfcourt player, smh, Bron turned his jumper up this year, he has literally been STRUGGLING to get to the basket this year, and this isanother FACT, nygga is dumb as fukk.

[Heat007]

Wade a bad halfcourt player ? is that the new one they're spewing ?



:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I don't understand why you are presenting a case to me like I am the official arbiter of "clutch". I am telling you how it is and how it will continue to be for the rest of Dirk's career. No formula will ever change that. You realize that right?

Kobe has more playoff success by far than both Wade and Dirk combined and unless Wade pulls of something dramatic (without LeBron) he will never be considered on Kobe's level. That's just the way its going to be and no amount of whining and hissy fits by you or any other poster will change that. Whether you want to remain to live in your delusional world or admit its true is on you. :confusedshrug:

So basically you admit that the perceptions are totally bogus. got it.

I'm asking you why Kobe is better than Wade this year. I'm asking you how Kobe is better than Dirk in the clutch this year.

I don't care what the BS perceptions are. The same perceptions led to players and gm's claiming Billups is the 2nd most clutch player in the league. The same perceptions lead to Kobe making first team all defense.

Who cares? We are talking about reality.

Just because the average person thinks Kobe is better than Wade does not make it true. It shows you how weak any argument you have really is if your go to move is talking about the general public and media and their perceptions LOL.

Again. This year:

Better offense? Wade
Better defense? Wade
Better stats overall? Wade
More team success? Wade

How does that lead to Kobe getting first team over Wade? What argument overall is there? Did Kobe play better in crunch time this year? Yes, he usually does. Is that enough to place him on first team over Wade? Absolutely not. Not even a question really.

[Disaprine]

The epic battle of really who is worse...Kobe pro stans or Kobe hating stans
:lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So basically you admit that the perceptions are totally bogus. got it.

I'm asking you why Kobe is better than Wade this year. I'm asking you how Kobe is better than Dirk in the clutch this year.

I don't care what the BS perceptions are. The same perceptions led to players and gm's claiming Billups is the 2nd most clutch player in the league. The same perceptions lead to Kobe making first team all defense.

Who cares? We are talking about reality.

Just because the average person thinks Kobe is better than Wade does not make it true. It shows you how weak any argument you have really is if your go to move is talking about the general public and media and their perceptions LOL.

Again. This year:

Better offense? Wade
Better defense? Wade
Better stats overall? Wade
More team success? Wade

How does that lead to Kobe getting first team over Wade? What argument overall is there? Did Kobe play better in crunch time this year? Yes, he usually does. Is that enough to place him on first team over Wade? Absolutely not. Not even a question really.

"Perception is reality"

Do you really think 30 years from now people are going to remember Dirk as some sort of "clutch time" master and not a playoff failure if he retired tomorrow?

Who are you to judge how voters you choose All NBA Awards? Are voters given a specific set of instructions they are supposed to follow before they cast their ballot? They could vote for whoever gives the best interviews for all I care, but as long as they are consistent in how or why they vote a certain way I don't really see how any reasonable person can have a beef with the process.

They have been giving away All Nba awards since 1946, before win shares, before PER, before offensive ratings and defensive ratings and EFF and whatever is next and somehow the league has managed to survive.

If Wade is less highly regarded by his peers coaches and the media whose livelihood depends on them than Kobe then he is going to have to prove them wrong in the playoffs because obviously what he accomplished in the past hasn't been enough.

[G-Funk]

His career stats currently shyts on Kobes, this is not debateable, if he finishes with 4 rings he would have easily had the better career, GTFOH with your weak ass assumptions.
GTFO..Kobe's career shyts on Wades....21-29 Kobe>>>>>Wade.. Wade was nowhere near good enough to even dream about playing in the NBA at 18-21