Kobe: the only top 10 player never top 2 in PER or WS

[OldSchoolBBall]

I find it interesting that Kobe is the only top 10 player of all-time (which I concede he is - I have him around #9, behind Duncan/Shaq and ahead of Hakeem) who has never finished top 2 even a single time in PER or Win Shares. Now, these metrics have flaws obviously, but does anyone else really think it's a coincidence that EVERY other top 10 player of all time has finished at least top 2 in the league in one of these metrics at least once? Let's take a look at the counts for the top 10 players of all time:

Jordan - 7x leader in PER (3x second in PER), 9x leader in WS (2x second in WS)
Kareem - 9x leader in PER (3x second in PER), 9x leader in WS (1x second in WS)
Wilt - 8x leader in PER (2x second in PER), 8x leader in WS (3x second in WS)
Magic - 1x second in PER, 1x second in WS
Bird - 2x leader in PER (2x second in PER), 2x leader in WS (2x second in WS)
Russell - 2x second in WS
Shaq - 5x leader in PER (3x second in PER), 2x leader in WS (3x second in WS)
Hakeem - 1x second in PER, 1x second in WS
Duncan - 4x second in PER, 2x leader in WS
Kobe - BUBKES

Now, what is interesting to note is that a couple of the top 10 didn't have many top finishes in PER or WS - namely, Magic and Russell. This is easily explainable, however, because PER is notorious for underrating pass-first PG's. Despite this, Magic has as many top 3 finishes in PER as Kobe, and more top 3 finishes in WS than Kobe (4 vs. 0 for Kobe - the best Kobe ever finished is 4th). In Russell's case, it's because his impact was largely defensive, and PER doesn't adequately capture defensive impact. Also, both Magic and Russell were perhaps the two greatest "intangibles" guys ever, inspiring their teammates to play at a high level at all times and maximizing team success; PER doesn't measure intangibles. Kobe is not, by anyone's account, a huge intangibles guy like Magic/Russell, nor is he a player whose impact is primarily defensive, like Russell; nor is he a pass-first PG who is undervalued by PER like Magic.

In fact, Kobe is precisely the type of player which PER tends to favor (volume scorer), yet despite this, all he has to show for himself are two top 3 finishes in PER and a few top 4 finishes in WS. On top of that, it should be noted that one does not need to be on a good team (in terms of W-L record) to finish top 2 in WS - I just wanted to preempt that argument. Jordan finished #1 in WS on sub-50 win teams, as did Wilt, KAJ, and others. Again, Kobe has never finished better than 4th in WS.

Discuss.


Editor's Note: This holds for EFF also. Kobe is the only top 10 player aside from Russell (and again, EFF doesn't measure defensive impact or intangibles AT ALL) to never lead the league in EFF even once. Every stat just seems to have a vendetta against this guy for whatever reason. Go figure. :confusedshrug:

[blablabla]

kevin love > kobe

[The_Yearning]

That is what makes Kobe so great. Nobody can figure him out on the court or on paper.

[Javat_90]

That is what makes Kobe is great. Nobody can figure him out on the court or on paper.
:oldlol:

[ashbelly]

That is what makes Kobe is great. Nobody can figure him out on the court or on paper.
:oldlol: :oldlol: maybe because he's not that great after all ?. he's teams >>>>>>>> . thats why he's on that list.

[glidedrxlr22]

I find it interesting that Kobe is the only top 10 player of all-time (which I concede he is - I have him around #9, behind Duncan/Shaq and ahead of Hakeem) who has never finished top 2 even a single time in PER or Win Shares. Now, these metrics have flaws obviously, but does anyone else really think it's a coincidence that EVERY other top 10 player of all time has finished at least top 2 in the league in one of these metrics at least once?

Laker/Kobe stans will vehemently throw out anything in your post. They

[Doranku]

What's the point of this thread? You say yourself that you have him at #9, so why do these arbitrary stats matter?

[B]

Must be a thread around here giving Kobe props, OP felt the need to drum up the same tired post again.

[necya]

top 10 all time only on ISH. the dude is one of the most overrated player.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's the point of this thread? You say yourself that you have him at #9, so why do these arbitrary stats matter?

You know very well why it matters. Because certain (very vocal) people try to make him into something he isn't, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

[Doranku]

top 10 all time only on ISH. the dude is one of the most overrated player.

Actually ISH is one of the only places where Kobe's top 10 status is argued. The vast majority of logical fans on non-troll boards have Kobe at either 9 or 10.

[B]

You know very well why it matters. Because certain (very vocal) people try to make him into something he isn't, and refuse to acknowledge MY reality of the situation.Fixed

[OldSchoolBBall]

[QUOTE=B

[DRose1899]

K. Love > Kobe

[LEFT4DEAD]

Stats are huge part of today's perception of basketball. My opinion is that Kobe will be falling on all time lists of new generation of fans big time just because of stats like this ( even though I think these stats are fair when it comes to comparation of all time greats).

[Doranku]

You know very well why it matters. Because certain (very vocal) people try to make him into something he isn't, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

Why does it matter, though? Do you think this thread is going to cause them to undergo some epiphany where they realize the truth?

Every fan who knows anything at all about basketball realizes that Kobe isn't close to Jordan and never will be. Threads like these just make the small minority of people who believe the opposite reaffirm their illogical beliefs.

[Heat007]

LOL @ Kobe being a Top 10 player.

It's very debatable that he's even a Top 20 player. And it's certainly arguable that he isn't in the Top 20.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You know very well why it matters. Because certain (very vocal) people try to make him into something he isn't, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

Because his value has been completely exagerrated to the Lakers championship success. The fact Pau 'Gasoft' leads the Lakers in WS and PER, on average, tells you all you need to know about his play. He's a great player, but clearly not what he's made about to be (by his fans).

[Javat_90]

I think this happens to Kobe because of several reasons:

1. His shot-selection has always been his weak point, we all know this. If he had a better shot-selection through-out his career, he could have been even greater, which is scary in itself.

2. Unlike the players in that list (except maybe Jordan), Kobe played a respectable portion of his career with average or under-average teammates/teams, which is obviously going to affect all his statistical percentages.

3. He is simply not may be as good as people like Jordan, Shaq or Wilt. Those guys belong clearly to the top-5. Kobe Bryant on the other hand, is somewhere around the 8-10 position in all-time rankings.

[Javat_90]

LOL @ Wade being a Top 10 player.

It's very debatable that he's even a Top 20 player. And it's certainly arguable that he isn't in the Top 20.

Ya.

I agree.

[DMAVS41]

Stats are huge part of today's perception of basketball. My opinion is that Kobe will be falling on all time lists of new generation of fans big time just because of stats like this.

At some point stats will become over valued. I don't think we are there yet, but soon they will be.

Just like Rings are way over valued right now when ranking players. It never used to be this way. This new generation has pursued this assertion that players should be judged almost solely off of a team accomplishment.

It is now more important to win a ring than to play well. Interesting. I think stats are the way to balance this out.

However, at some point, stats will skew reality a bit.

As always, balance is the best and actually looking at level of play and impact based on circumstances will always trump raw stats or ring counts.

[Disaprine]

per ws? who takes that shit seriously? :roll:

Dirk - 23.73 per
kobe - 23.52 per
Bird - 23.50 per

:dancin

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

LOL @ Kobe being a Top 10 player.

It's very debatable that he's even a Top 20 player. And it's certainly arguable that he isn't in the Top 20.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: @ this guy :roll: :roll:
BTW

Kevin Love > Kobe Bryant

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[B]

LOL @ Kobe being a Top 10 player.

It's very debatable that he's even a Top 20 player. And it's certainly arguable that he isn't in the Top 20.Juice break is over. Now it's time for you to line up for potty breaks then it's off to story time

[DMAVS41]

I think this happens to Kobe because of several reasons:

1. His shot-selection has always been his weak point, we all know this. If he had a better shot-selection through-out his career, he could have been even greater, which is scary in itself.

2. Unlike the players in that list (except maybe Jordan), Kobe played a respectable portion of his career with average or under-average teammates/teams, which is obviously going to affect all his statistical percentages.

3. He is simply not may be as good as people like Jordan, Shaq or Wilt. Those guys belong clearly to the top-5. Kobe Bryant on the other hand, is somewhere around the 8-10 position in all-time rankings.


What? Just no.

Kobe has played only 3 years of his career without championship caliber help.

I hope i'm not understanding your point. Kobe has had only 05/06/07 when the teams around him haven't been championship caliber. Kobe has had one of the most blessed careers of all time in terms of help.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I think this happens to Kobe because of several reasons:

1. His shot-selection has always been his weak point, we all know this. If he had a better shot-selection through-out his career, he could have been even greater, which is scary in itself.

Agreed that his shot selection affects all his numbers.


2. Unlike the players in that list (except maybe Jordan), Kobe played a respectable portion of his career with average or under-average teammates/teams, which is obviously going to affect all his statistical percentages.

KAJ, Wilt, and Jordan spent just as many years as Kobe on average/poor teams (Kobe only spent 3 years on bad teams, '05-'07) yet had no trouble leading the league in WS etc. No excuse.


3. He is simply not may be as good as people like Jordan, Shaq or Wilt. Those guys belong clearly to the top-5. Kobe Bryant on the other hand, is somewhere around the 8-10 position in all-time rankings.

Then people should acknowledge the bolded and stop spouting nonsense.

[DuMa]

i LOLed at bubkes :D

[Javat_90]

What? Just no.

Kobe has played only 3 years of his career without championship caliber help.

I hope i'm not understanding your point. Kobe has had only 05/06/07 when the teams around him haven't been championship caliber. Kobe has had one of the most blessed careers of all time in terms of help.

Dont get me wrong, Kobe has been very lucky in playing with the teammates he played with.

But look at the players on that list, except Hakeem and Jordan, all of them have had pretty good teams almost every year of their careers, or even prime.

Maybe im wrong, but I cant recall prime Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Magic or Bird playing for average teams like Kobe did from 05-07. He was wasting what were arguably his best years playing for sub-par teams.

Same problem Jordan had in the 80s, and same problem Lebron has had in Cleveland.

That has to affect statistic somehow, dont you think?

[guy]

2. Unlike the players in that list (except maybe Jordan), Kobe played a respectable portion of his career with average or under-average teammates/teams, which is obviously going to affect all his statistical percentages.


Umm, you're kidding right?

[Kblaze8855]

Now, these metrics have flaws obviously, but does anyone else really think it's a coincidence that EVERY other top 10 player of all time has finished at least top 2 in the league in one of these metrics at least once?

Id have to say it is. Those particular numbers are totally without value to me. I doubt I rank Kobe as high as most here....but these absurd formulas have nothing to do with it. If I wont hold it against Bill Russell or Magic I wont hold it against Kobe. I dont factor it in when the issue is Michael Redd vs Deron Williams nor do I care Drob is like 3rd all time and Kobe is ahead of Larry Bird(not like Larry has his late career dragging him down either...his final seasons PER is higher than his first two seasons).

Its information I will read about and...consider I guess. But if I didnt need it to know who the best was 5 years ago I dont see why I need it now.

[Javat_90]

Umm, you're kidding right?

I should have said respectable portion of his prime, instead of career.

[chazzy]

Better peak PER than Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Russell..

[Insiderbball]

i remember KG5mvp posted about this earlier

[OldSchoolBBall]

Id have to say it is. Those particular numbers are totally without value to me. I doubt I rank Kobe as high as most here....but these absurd formulas have nothing to do with it. If I wont hold it against Bill Russell or Magic I wont hold it against Kobe. I dont factor it in when the issue is Michael Redd vs Deron Williams nor do I care Drob is like 3rd all time and Kobe is ahead of Larry Bird(not like Larry has his late career dragging him down either...his final seasons PER is higher than his first two seasons).

Its information I will read about and...consider I guess. But if I didnt need it to know who the best was 5 years ago I dont see why I need it now.

I'm not saying one NEEDS it, I'm saying that when every other top 10 player shows evidence for their greatness by way of stats and ONE player doesn't, it is counterintuitive to try and act like stats simply hate that ONE player. The more logical answer is that that ONE player was never as good (at least peak vs. peak) as the other players, especially the players in that list who DOMINATED by every metric.


Better peak PER than Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Russell..

Yeah, in a season where every perimeter player and their mother had career years. And he still was only good enough to finish third in PER anyway. :oldlol: If he's so great, why can't he distinguish himself from his peers, much less from all-time greats like those listed earlier?

[Disaprine]

Reggie Miller - 174.40 win shares
Tim Duncan - 169.97 win shares
Bill Russell - 163.51 win shares

:dancin

[Carbine]

If you concede that the stat is flawed, why bother using it?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Reggie Miller - 174.40 win shares
Bill Russell - 163.51 win shares

:dancin

Keep ignoring the obvious, Kobe fans. Keep on truckin'. :oldlol: Again, WS is based on one's TANGIBLE (i.e., statistical) contribution to team wins; Russell was a INTANGIBLES and DEFENSIVE player. Kobe is not. Kobe is EXACTLY the type of player which PER/WS overvalue, yet despite this, he doesn't rate. Sad. :oldlol:

[Doranku]

I'm not saying one NEEDS it, I'm saying that when every other top 10 player shows evidence for their greatness by way of stats and ONE player doesn't, it is counterintuitive to try and act like stats simply hate that ONE player. The more logical answer is that that ONE player was never as good (at least peak vs. peak) as the other players, especially the players in that list who DOMINATED by every metric.



Yeah, in a season where every perimeter player and their mother had career years. And he still was only good enough to finish third in PER anyway. :oldlol: If he's so great, why can't he distinguish himself from his peers, much less from all-time greats like those listed earlier?

So Kobe's 30/6/6 playoff averages over the last three years (over 60 games) isn't a stat that proves his greatness?

How about his 29/7/6 run in '01 where he led Shaq in win shares? Or his dominating stat lines in various WCFs?

Like others have mentioned, Kobe has a higher peak PER than half of the top 10 players. Why don't you point out these stats?

Oh, because they don't fit your agenda. Typical ISH.

[guy]

Dont get me wrong, Kobe has been very lucky in playing with the teammates he played with.

But look at the players on that list, except Hakeem and Jordan, all of them have had pretty good teams almost every year of their careers, or even prime.

Maybe im wrong, but I cant recall prime Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Magic or Bird playing for average teams like Kobe did from 05-07. He was wasting what were arguably his best years playing for sub-par teams.

Same problem Jordan had in the 80s, and same problem Lebron has had in Cleveland.

That has to affect statistic somehow, dont you think?

Kobe has played with bad teammates 3 out of 15 seasons. He's had great enough teammates to contend for about 80% of his career. He's had 12 seasons where his team could contend, which is the same amount as Magic and Bird. Jordan on the other hand played 7 out of 15 seasons on bad teams and Lebron played his first 6-7 seasons on bad teams. And 05 was one of his worst years anyway. I don't think he was that much better in 06 and 07 as he was in 02, 03, 08, and 09.

[DMAVS41]

Reggie Miller - 174.40 win shares
Tim Duncan - 169.97 win shares
Bill Russell - 163.51 win shares

:dancin

Another person trying to poke holes in a stat that doesn't even understand how they are figured.

Reggie Miller is higher because he played more years.

Dude, if you are going to post like that, learn about the stat first.

A much better stat because of longevity issues:

Win shares per 48

duncan .216
russell .193







miller .176

ROFL. Good effort though.

reggie miller needed 5 more seasons than russell to get his number. LOL....please respond.

[chazzy]

Yeah, in a season where every perimeter player and their mother had career years.
Ah, so NOW we're using context I see. Still the fact remains. Better peak PER than 4 of the top 10 :D

Manu has a better WS/48 than Duncan since 04

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Agreed that his shot selection affects all his numbers.



KAJ, Wilt, and Jordan spent just as many years as Kobe on average/poor teams (Kobe only spent 3 years on bad teams, '05-'07) yet had no trouble leading the league in WS etc. No excuse.



Then people should acknowledge the bolded and stop spouting nonsense.

WHO ON THIS BOARD THAT IS NOT A TROLL SAYS THAT KOBE > JORDAN!!!

Seriously you guys keep bringing this shit up saying that Kobe stans need to accept the truth except that no poster here, at least ones that aren't trolling say that Kobe > Jordan. We all know Jordan is the GOAT :banghead:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Just speaks highly of his ability to lead unlikely champions to championships time and time again. Kobe is David in the David and Goliath story and he his coming to knock down Goliath for the 6th time without two HOF teammates or two all stars unlike everybody else in the top 10.

[Kblaze8855]

Odd thing about that is...Russell has far better numbers than Reggie.

18/3/3 and a steal vs 15/23/4? I dont even see how not having Russells blocks and steals would make up that vast difference. Added to that...Reggie has TOs dragging his down but Russell doesnt. Is shooting percentage and FT percentage THAT major in these numbers?

What kind of math is done to conclude 15/23/4 isnt better than 18/3/3 if it ISNT just the percentages?

The steals and shooting percentages must weigh in heavily.

[OldSchoolBBall]

So Kobe's 30/6/6 playoff averages over the last three years (over 60 games) isn't a stat that proves his greatness?

Anyone can chuck/ballhog their way to numbers. PER/WS measure efficiency and overall statistical contribution to team success. Again, no one denies that Kobe is a top 10 player - he's just not as good as many/most of the rest of the top 10 if we're talking prime vs. prime - especially not the guys on that list who clearly dominated by every metric. When people stop acting like HE IS as good as or better than those guys, I'll shut up.


How about his 29/7/6 run in '01 where he led Shaq in win shares? Or his dominating stat lines in various WCFs?

He led in WS in a PLAYOFFS (not for a full season), and it was by .1, which is miniscule (and was largely because Kobe played 1.1 more mpg than Shaq). Meanwhile, Shaq led in PER that postseason by like 4, a much more significant difference.


Like others have mentioned, Kobe has a higher peak PER than half of the top 10 players. Why don't you point out these stats?

Oh, because they don't fit your agenda. Typical ISH.

Kobe had ONE season with a peak PER of 28.0, and he finished THIRD that season in PER. Sorry, but I and every other reasonable person look at how a player performs relative to their peers. Two players outperformed Kobe by way of PER in 2006, so he wasn't even the best that season. But he's supposedly better than guys like MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt? Sorry, but no. And it's that last point that I'm arguing against, and which was the impetus for this thread.

[chazzy]

WHO ON THIS BOARD THAT IS NOT A TROLL SAYS THAT KOBE > JORDAN!!!
No one, Loki has reached the point where all of his past debates with trolls over this issue has made him rejoice over anything that makes Kobe looks bad. He doesn't actively root for any team, just against a single player :roll:

[Javat_90]

Kobe has played with bad teammates 3 out of 15 seasons. He's had great enough teammates to contend for about 80% of his career. He's had 12 seasons where his team could contend, which is the same amount as Magic and Bird. Jordan on the other hand played 7 out of 15 seasons on bad teams and Lebron played his first 6-7 seasons on bad teams. And 05 was one of his worst years anyway. I don't think he was that much better in 06 and 07 as he was in 02, 03, 08, and 09.

Proved me wrong then.

I just had the feeling that Kobe wasted more of his prime years compared to other all-time greats like Magic, Bird, Wilt or Shaq.

But looking strictly at the numbers, it seems I was wrong.

[Doranku]

WHO ON THIS BOARD THAT IS NOT A TROLL SAYS THAT KOBE > JORDAN!!!

Seriously you guys keep bringing this shit up saying that Kobe stans need to accept the truth except that no poster here, at least ones that aren't trolling say that Kobe > Jordan. We all know Jordan is the GOAT :banghead:

The fabrication process that Kobe haters go through is truly unbelievable. They take things that ONE person has said (actually, half the time, it's something that no one has ever even said) and warp their minds into thinking that there are legions of people who believe the same bullshit.

I can't tell if it's due to insecurity, boredom, or it's just a sickness that they were born with.

[DMAVS41]

Ah, so NOW we're using context I see. Still the fact remains. Better peak PER than 4 of the top 10 :D

Manu has a better WS/48 than Duncan since 04

Have to agree with this.

I love these stats, but we have to use them properly. Context is the key, can't only use context for Kobe when it fits an agenda.

[Knoe Itawl]

The issue is that Kobe has had a great career. Full of spectacular plays and he's had team success as well. However, because of his playing style and the market he plays in he's been designated by many ignorant people to be in the Kareem, Jordan etc. echelon when in reality if we're purely talking about as a player, he's somewhere in the top 15 or so all time. The other thing is that he had the TALENT to be higher, but not the ability to put it all together consistently enough. He has a fatal flaw to his game that a lot of people are unwilling to accept which is shot selection and single mindedness, sometimes to the detriment of the team concept.. He's been lucky enough to be on teams that provide enough of a cushion to where he can play like that and still have success, being that he IS a very talented player. However he's not the type of player that is going to get solid to good teams over the hump or overachieve with them. Again, he's such a prolific scorer that if he gets on a hot streak, a team he's on is going to have a chance to win but he needs a very specific situation for that to work long term which he's been fortunate enough to have. His inefficiency at times, and stubbornness mean that he needs a team that's solid on the boards and in d to make up for all the times he's going to shoot poorly.

The current Lakers have the perfect scenario for that. They don't win because of Kobe. He is obviously a major factor in their success but they win primarily because they have 7 footers that no one can deal with on a regular basis. These 7 footers provide interior intimidation on d, get a ridiculous amt of offensive boards which are KILLERS to teams and are all incredibly mobile and versatile. That is a lot to overcome regardless of who your starting sg is. In addition, along with all of that they have a player in Artest who may be challenged offensively but is going to take on the defensive load which helps Kobe conserve energy tremendously. The game has traditionally been about interior play and the Lakers have an overload of it.

So Kobe's had the right mixture of talent and luck. These two things plus playing style lead to him being as overrated as he is. Great player, but not what the hype suggests.

[Javat_90]

Have to agree with this.

I love these stats, but we have to use them properly. Context is the key, can't only use context for Kobe when it fits an agenda.

Too true.

Its hard to find unbiased posters without a hidden agenda around here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're a Kobe hater when you point out facts.

Go figure :rolleyes:

[LeFraud Shames]

The fabrication process that Kobe haters go through is truly unbelievable. They take things that ONE person has said (actually, half the time, it's something that no one has ever even said) and warp their minds into thinking that there are legions of people who believe the same bullshit.

I can't tell if it's due to insecurity, boredom, or it's just a sickness that they were born with.

+1

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

You're a Kobe hater when you point out facts.

Go figure :rolleyes:

And you're a Kobe homer when you point out the lies and agendas

Go figure :rolleyes:

[Calabis]

Just speaks highly of his ability to lead unlikely champions to championships time and time again. Kobe is David in the David and Goliath story and he his coming to knock down Goliath for the 6th time without two HOF teammates or two all stars unlike everybody else in the top 10.

Yet he and Magic are the only ones who have played with a teammate in everyones consensus top 10....Magic/KAJ and Shaq...
hmmm. Top 10 GOAT Player of all time as a teammate worse than Top 30-100 teammate all time:roll: this dude has no concept

[kaiiu]

/yawn

[PHILA]

3. He is simply not may be as good as people like Jordan, Shaq or Wilt. Those guys belong clearly to the top-5. Kobe Bryant on the other hand, is somewhere around the 8-10 position in all-time rankings.What has changed in the last few days?


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217108


First Team

C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar


Second Team

C - Shaquille O`Neal


Third Team

C - Hakeem Olajuwon

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And you're a Kobe homer when you point out the lies and agendas

Go figure :rolleyes:

You're not pointing out lies... LMFAO! What the OP posted is all true.

[Javat_90]

What has changed in the last few days?


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217108


First Team

C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar


Second Team

C - Shaquille O`Neal


Third Team

C - Hakeem Olajuwon

That was a personal opinion oh wise man.

Unleast you take my personal opinion as gospel. In which case id feel highly complimented.

[DMAVS41]

Yet he and Magic are the only ones who have played with a teammate in everyones consensus top 10....Magic/KAJ and Shaq...
hmmm. Top 10 GOAT Player of all time as a teammate worse than Top 30-100 teammate all time:roll: this dude has no concept

The Kareem that Magic had was not on the level of really though. For a few years, yes. But not overall.

No player also in the top ten range has played with a player even close to Shaq the 8 years kobe played with him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yet he and Magic are the only ones who have played with a teammate in everyones consensus top 10....Magic/KAJ and Shaq...
hmmm. Top 10 GOAT Player of all time as a teammate worse than Top 30-100 teammate all time:roll: this dude has no concept

False. West and Chamberlain also played together. Same with Oscar and Jabbar depending on what your top ten looks like. More top ten guys played with other top ten guys than not. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

False. West and Chamberlain also played together. Same with Oscar and Jabbar depending on what your top ten looks like. More top ten guys played with other top ten guys than not. :confusedshrug:

Not even close to the same thing....and you know this.

[Rysio]

wtf is PER or WS?

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not saying one NEEDS it, I'm saying that when every other top 10 player shows evidence for their greatness by way of stats and ONE player doesn't, it is counterintuitive to try and act like stats simply hate that ONE player. The more logical answer is that that ONE player was never as good (at least peak vs. peak) as the other players, especially the players in that list who DOMINATED by every metric.

I dont act like the stats hate one player. But it appears they hate basketball. If you cant measure defense, effort, passing, leadership, ability to create a shot when needed, and so on you might as well say you cant measure basketball. Which is why Russell is 97th all time. That plus incomplete numbers for half the players.

I have to throw out far more players than Kobe to pretend these numbers make sense. These numbers being way off on a player isnt the exception. Its the rule. Its almost always inaccurate. Be that Kevin Love being elite....or Michael Redd somehow being 175 spots ahead of Glen Rice.

Im not gonna act like 5 people being in roughly the right spots means 500 people arent way off and then conclude its a reasonable formula.

[Calabis]

What has changed in the last few days?


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217108


First Team

C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar


Second Team

C - Shaquille O`Neal


Third Team

C - Hakeem Olajuwon

Shhh.......:no: Kobestans said he only played against short white non athletic guys

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not even close to the same thing....and you know this.

Right special rules for Kobe... I forgot

[Calabis]

False. West and Chamberlain also played together. Same with Oscar and Jabbar depending on what your top ten looks like. More top ten guys played with other top ten guys than not. :confusedshrug:

So where do you rank Kobe if West is in u'r top 10???? Oscar??? Because if they are in u'rs then Kobe sure the hell ain't in u'r top 10

That's why I mentioned consensus TOP 10.....Shaq, KAJ, Magic are rarely left out, West and Oscar mainly fall in the 12-17 range

[DMAVS41]

Right special rules for Kobe... I forgot

please list the number of years each played together.

kobe had shaq and quality teams around him for 8 years.

[Javat_90]

Shhh.......:no: Kobestans said he only played against short white non athletic guys

Relax, that was a list based on, I repeat it again, personal opinion. I didnt know my opinion was that highly valued around this place. :oldlol:

Take a deep breath and move on.

I know Abe is mad at the fact that i didnt name his hero on that list, but that doesnt take away the fact that hes an all-time great.

[chazzy]

Kevin Love is top 4 in PER, yet not top 15 in anyone's list this year.. that's my problem with these singular "catch-all" stats. Have we gotten so lazy as fans that we judge the entirety of a player's impact based on one number?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So where do you rank Kobe if West is in u'r top 10???? Oscar??? Because if they are in u'rs then Kobe sure the hell ain't in u'r top 10

I never really took the time to rank them. 8-15 are pretty interchangeable don't you think. You can find various combinations of rankings among them. Is there something magical about being top 10 instead of top 15.

[Sarcastic]

I like how you had to add win shares to your criteria, because Bill Russell is proof positive how flawed PER is :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Kevin Love is top 4 in PER, yet not top 15 in anyone's list this year.. that's my problem with these singular "catch-all" stats. Have we gotten so lazy as fans that we judge the entirety of a player's impact based on one number?

Totally agree.

Have to use context of course. We all know Kevin Love isn't in this class of a player. Nobody would suggest it.

However, I have no problem comparing all time great players that we all know are elite based on advanced metrics. Just because Kevin Love is high up does not mean the stat is worthless.

[NY-Knicks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI1voN0RpV4&feature=related

Just fits perfectly here.


:rolleyes:

[Knoe Itawl]

Kevin Love is top 4 in PER, yet not top 15 in anyone's list this year.. that's my problem with these singular "catch-all" stats. Have we gotten so lazy as fans that we judge the entirety of a player's impact based on one number?

It's the topic but my feelings on Kobe aren't really based on any particular stat though it IS funny that when stats favor Kobe his fans are all about them (omg he averaged 35ppg one year!!!) Consecutive 50 point games!!! but when scenarios like this or his clutch stats etc. are concerned it's only "haters" who are interested in them.

Judging a player takes the right amount of stats and observation because stats don't capture all impact. However you can't just throw out all stats you don't like. They do help in telling a story though context is always necessary to flesh everything out.

[OldSchoolBBall]

And you're a Kobe homer when you point out the lies and agendas

Go figure :rolleyes:

Please point out the lies in my original post. Agenda? Sure, guilty as charged. I'm sick of these Kobe stans polluting this board with nonsense and acting like Kobe is on the MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq level in terms of level of play and impact when he clearly isn't.

[chazzy]

Totally agree.

Have to use context of course. We all know Kevin Love isn't in this class of a player. Nobody would suggest it.

However, I have no problem comparing all time great players that we all know are elite based on advanced metrics. Just because Kevin Love is high up does not mean the stat is worthless.
It's not worthless, but you often see people resort to propping up this stat alone rather than actually discuss how people play, along with their full line of stats. Because it supposedly covers everything in a lot of kids' minds

[DMAVS41]

One thing about stats as well. Its much easier to put up decent stats on bad teams that don't win often. If Kevin Love was doing this on a 60 win team, people wouldn't be laughing at him.

Something to think about it.

[G.O.A.T]

Yet another reason to ignore those type of made up numbers.

[Sarcastic]

One thing about stats as well. Its much easier to put up decent stats on bad teams that don't win often. If Kevin Love was doing this on a 60 win team, people wouldn't be laughing at him.

Something to think about it.

Kevin Love probably couldn't put up those stats on a 60 win team

[DMAVS41]

It's not worthless, but you often see people resort to propping up this stat alone rather than actually discuss how people play, along with their full line of stats.

You know how I feel. I want everything. PER would be just one of about 20 different metrics used to evaluate players.

Is PER better than some other metrics? Yes, I think it does a decent job at encompassing overall impact often. However, it can be misleading as well.

So I don't understand the arguments that PER sucks because it has a guy like Kevin Love so high. Any stat is worthless when used solely or without context.

Ellis scores a ton of points. Nene has a great fg%.

What good is any stat without context? PER is no different.

[DMAVS41]

Kevin Love probably couldn't put up those stats on a 60 win team

exactly my point.

context.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Please point out the lies in my original post. Agenda? Sure, guilty as charged. I'm sick of these Kobe stans polluting this board with nonsense and acting like Kobe is on the MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq level in terms of level of play and impact when he clearly isn't.

Who says that he is better than them? Where are these posts? And are they by people who aren't known trolls/dumbasses? All I see anyone say is that he wasn't a sidekick who road coattails like some people like to claim.

He's a great player. Is he the greatest? No of course not. No one has a problem admitting that. It only becomes an issue when you guys make threads like this to try and diminish him in every way imaginable. Find any stat/comparison you can to undercut his value and impact on the game and his teams. I swear there is no other player on this board that gets scrutinized as much as Kobe Bryant. You can never give him a compliment or just have a thread discussing him without some d!ckhead coming in and bashing him for no reason.

WE KNOW HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS MJ OR KAJ OR OTHER NAMES YOU MENTIONED!!!

[Calabis]

I never really took the time to rank them. 8-15 are pretty interchangeable don't you think. You can find various combinations of rankings among them. Is there something magical about being top 10 instead of top 15.

Yeah there is, I would believe if I'm in the 6-8 range in 99% of everyones Top 10, would mean I was much better than being the 15th rated guy, who is being left out of everyone's Top 10....quit making excuses your "Kobe has played with nobodies" is pathetic....in case u need more stats here is eff rating of second banana teammates

Jordan: Woolridge, Oakley, Grant, Pippen, Hamilton, Stackhouse= avg eff rating 20.7, with the highest being 26.1 by Pippen

Kobe: Shaq, Malone, Gasol, Odom= avg eff rating 26.0, with highest being 33.8 by Shaq

Winning Title Runs
Shaq 33.8, 31.0, 28.5 = avg of 28.6
Gasol 24.9, 25.2

Pippen 24.0, 26.1, 22.4, 21.6, 22.3, 20.5 = avg of 22.86

Kobe was not the team leader by EFF in any of his five championships. Jordan was the leader by a ton in all six of his.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah there is, I would believe if I'm in the 6-8 range in 99% of everyones Top 10, would mean I was much better than being the 15th rated guy, who is being left out of everyone's Top 10....quit making excuses your "Kobe has played with nobodies" is pathetic....in case u need more stats here is eff rating of second banana teammates

Jordan: Woolridge, Oakley, Grant, Pippen, Hamilton, Stackhouse= avg eff rating 20.7, with the highest being 26.1 by Pippen

Kobe: Shaq, Malone, Gasol, Odom= avg eff rating 26.0, with highest being 33.8 by Shaq

Winning Title Runs
Shaq 33.8, 31.0, 28.5 = avg of 28.6
Gasol 24.9, 25.2

Pippen 24.0, 26.1, 22.4, 21.6, 22.3, 20.5 = avg of 22.86

Kobe was not the team leader by EFF in any of his five championships. Jordan was the leader by a ton in all six of his.

Oooooo Burn. You just disproved something I never said with a statistic that I have never heard of. :applause:

[STATUTORY]

lol at these straight nerds hatin on Kobe's game. Kobe's a player's player. Anytime a current or former player has been asked about kobe, the answer was simple, Kobe's one of the greatest to ever play, flat out stud. But that can't be appreciated by those that never played the game. Kobe doesn't need the mass appeal

[bdreason]

He isn't better than any of those players, so it's not surprising his numbers don't compare. A lot of Kobe's props come from his success. I'm not trying to hate on Kobe, he's a great player... but there are other guys in the league who are/were equally as talented as Kobe, but just weren't put in winning situations like Kobe.


Again, I'm not taking away from Kobe's accomplishments or talent, and I have at #10 all-time... but let's not act like a player like Allen Iverson wouldn't have won rings with Shaq too. Being placed in a position to succeed is important for building a players legacy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He isn't better than any of those players, so it's not surprising his numbers don't compare. A lot of Kobe's props come from his success. I'm not trying to hate on Kobe, he's a great player... but there are other guys in the league who are/were equally as talented as Kobe, but just weren't put in winning situations like Kobe.


Again, I'm not taking away from Kobe's accomplishments or talent, and I have at #10 all-time... but let's not act like a player like Allen Iverson wouldn't have won rings with Shaq too. Being placed in a position to succeed is important for building a players legacy.

3 straight? Not sure, but AI would have fit well with Shaq too. Good post.

[Sarcastic]

He isn't better than any of those players, so it's not surprising his numbers don't compare. A lot of Kobe's props come from his success. I'm not trying to hate on Kobe, he's a great player... but there are other guys in the league who are/were equally as talented as Kobe, but just weren't put in winning situations like Kobe.


Again, I'm not taking away from Kobe's accomplishments or talent, and I have at #10 all-time... but let's not act like a player like Allen Iverson wouldn't have won rings with Shaq too. Being placed in a position to succeed is important for building a players legacy.

This is very similar to Tim Duncan as well. He was drafted by a team that was essentially a top 3 team in the west, but had 1 injury plagued season which allowed them to land the number 1 pick of the draft.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who says that he is better than them? Where are these posts? And are they by people who aren't known trolls/dumbasses? All I see anyone say is that he wasn't a sidekick who road coattails like some people like to claim.

He's a great player. Is he the greatest? No of course not. No one has a problem admitting that. It only becomes an issue when you guys make threads like this to try and diminish him in every way imaginable. Find any stat/comparison you can to undercut his value and impact on the game and his teams. I swear there is no other player on this board that gets scrutinized as much as Kobe Bryant. You can never give him a compliment or just have a thread discussing him without some d!ckhead coming in and bashing him for no reason.

WE KNOW HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS MJ OR KAJ OR OTHER NAMES YOU MENTIONED!!!

No, some people do NOT know this. Yao Ming's Foot, Alpha Wolf, Ne_1 and several others. Unfortunately, these trolls are allowed to pollute this board constantly with their nonsense. The incredible volume of such nonsense the last month or so is what prompted the creation of this thread.

[Heilige]

Please point out the lies in my original post. Agenda? Sure, guilty as charged. I'm sick of these Kobe stans polluting this board with nonsense and acting like Kobe is on the MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq level in terms of level of play and impact when he clearly isn't.


What does creating your thread accomplish? The trolls will not go away anyway. You have to just ignore them.

[BlackJoker23]

OP, can you do that for the playoffs as well just to show how "clutch" Kobe is? Its gonna be interesting to see how Kobe compares to the players you listed.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP, can you do that for the playoffs as well just to show how "clutch" Kobe is? Its gonna be interesting to see how Kobe compares to the players you listed.

I'd like to see this too, OldSchoolBBall. Thanks in advance.

[DMAVS41]

OP, can you do that for the playoffs as well just to show how "clutch" Kobe is? Its gonna be interesting to see how Kobe compares to the players you listed.

I don't know all the numbers, but I do know that Kobe's PER and win shares decrease in the playoffs. As does his efficiency.

Pretty sure that Kobe's playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers across the board.

[BallsOut]

Anyone can chuck/ballhog their way to numbers. PER/WS measure efficiency and overall statistical contribution to team success. Again, no one denies that Kobe is a top 10 player - he's just not as good as many/most of the rest of the top 10 if we're talking prime vs. prime - especially not the guys on that list who clearly dominated by every metric. When people stop acting like HE IS as good as or better than those guys, I'll shut up.



He led in WS in a PLAYOFFS (not for a full season), and it was by .1, which is miniscule (and was largely because Kobe played 1.1 more mpg than Shaq). Meanwhile, Shaq led in PER that postseason by like 4, a much more significant difference.



Kobe had ONE season with a peak PER of 28.0, and he finished THIRD that season in PER. Sorry, but I and every other reasonable person look at how a player performs relative to their peers. Two players outperformed Kobe by way of PER in 2006, so he wasn't even the best that season. But he's supposedly better than guys like MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt? Sorry, but no. And it's that last point that I'm arguing against, and which was the impetus for this thread.

lol at PER being advocated as a meaningful stat. It's a flawed stat made up by some clown who subjectively decided what value to give to each stat. I can come up with my own PER to benefit my favorite players and agendas as well. You said it yourself, if Kobe's PER doesn't measure up against the top 10 and he's in there, what does that say about the PER stat then? There are some guys who lead the league in PER just about every season and a very high chance they won't be sniffing the top 10 by the end of their careers. I'm talking guys like Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, etc.

Now if you choose to use PER in your arguments, don't just ignore Kobe's peak PER season in 2006, just because 2 other guys had a higher PER that season. You can't make excuses and leave something like that out, just because well just because it doesn't support your argument. Your agenda is as clear as day.

[chazzy]

I don't know all the numbers, but I do know that Kobe's PER and win shares decrease in the playoffs. As does his efficiency.

Pretty sure that Kobe's playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers across the board.
Do they drop in totality or on a year-by-year basis?

[DMAVS41]

Do they drop in totality or on a year-by-year basis?

No idea.

On my phone and can't check.

[madmax]

I don't know all the numbers, but I do know that Kobe's PER and win shares decrease in the playoffs. As does his efficiency.

Pretty sure that Kobe's playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers across the board.

Kobe career playoff numbers are actually very similar to his regular season numbers - in other words he neither overachieves nor underachieves in postseason. His finals numbers on the other hand are quite head scratching and thought inducing though...:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

OP, can you do that for the playoffs as well just to show how "clutch" Kobe is? Its gonna be interesting to see how Kobe compares to the players you listed.

I'm not gonna take the time to look for top 2 finishes in playoff WS/PER, but looking strictly at #1 finishes in playoff PER/WS, it's like this:

Jordan - 6x leader in playoff PER, 7x leader in playoff WS
Kareem - 7x leader in playoff PER, 3x leader in playoff WS
Wilt - 6x leader in playoff PER, 2x leader in playoff WS
Shaq - 4x leader in playoff PER, 4x leader in playoff WS
Duncan - 2x leader in playoff PER, 2x leader in playoff WS
Hakeem - 2x leader in playoff PER, 1x leader in playoff WS
Magic - 3x leader in playoff WS
Bird - 2x leader in playoff WS
Kobe - 1x leader in playoff WS (by .1 over Shaq)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe career playoff numbers are actually very similar to his regular season numbers - in other words he neither overachieves nor underachieves in postseason. His finals numbers on the other hand are quite head scratching and thought inducing though...:lol

Only if you are confused by the thought of elite defenses and their impact on primary scorers.

[Micku]

I think CP3 has a better per than Magic Johnson for a couple of years, right?

I wouldn't take CP3 over Magic Johnson though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not gonna take the time to look for top 2 finishes in playoff WS/PER, but looking strictly at #1 finishes in playoff PER/WS, it's like this:

Jordan - 6x leader in playoff PER, 7x leader in playoff WS
Kareem - 7x leader in playoff PER, 3x leader in playoff WS
Wilt - 6x leader in playoff PER, 2x leader in playoff WS
Shaq - 4x leader in playoff PER, 4x leader in playoff WS
Duncan - 2x leader in playoff PER, 2x leader in playoff WS
Hakeem - 2x leader in playoff PER, 1x leader in playoff WS
Magic - 3x leader in playoff WS
Bird - 2x leader in playoff WS
Kobe - 1x leader in playoff WS (by .1 over Shaq)

:applause:

[Javat_90]

Kobe career playoff numbers are actually very similar to his regular season numbers - in other words he neither overachieves nor underachieves in postseason. His finals numbers on the other hand are quite head scratching and thought inducing though...:lol

Just like Lebron`s in 2007.


:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

:applause:

...because he averaged 1.1 more mpg than Shaq that postseason. Their WS per 48 min were equal.

[Christofire]

You know very well why it matters. Because certain (very vocal) people try to make him into something he isn't, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

SO people are supposed to ignore what they;ve seen from him throughout the course of his career right?...because he wasn;t in the 2 of two meaningless stats?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

...because he averaged 1.1 more mpg than Shaq that postseason. Their WS per 48 min were equal.

So basically you are telling me Kobe was equal to a guy who is better than 2 standard HOFers combined.

[madmax]

Just like Lebron`s in 2007.


:lol

so we are gonna judge 22 years old Lebron now playing against one of the best teams of last decade and being tripple teamed on every possession because nobody from his scrub team could do anything offensively besides him?:rolleyes:
He didn't shoot well in those series, but it's not like he had any legit help either.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Who says that he is better than them? Where are these posts? And are they by people who aren't known trolls/dumbasses? All I see anyone say is that he wasn't a sidekick who road coattails like some people like to claim.

He's a great player. Is he the greatest? No of course not. No one has a problem admitting that. It only becomes an issue when you guys make threads like this to try and diminish him in every way imaginable. Find any stat/comparison you can to undercut his value and impact on the game and his teams. I swear there is no other player on this board that gets scrutinized as much as Kobe Bryant. You can never give him a compliment or just have a thread discussing him without some d!ckhead coming in and bashing him for no reason.

WE KNOW HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS MJ OR KAJ OR OTHER NAMES YOU MENTIONED!!!
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Christofire]

...because he averaged 1.1 more mpg than Shaq that postseason. Their WS per 48 min were equal.

these stupid stats have to undergo too much adjustments for my liking. If you have to manipulate a stat to make it fit to your liking then 10-1 the stat is useless

[hwliuLAP]

Professionalism doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

He takes his job very serious, and he's had a successful career.

[DMAVS41]

these stupid stats have to undergo too much adjustments for my liking. If you have to manipulate a stat to make it fit to your liking then 10-1 the stat is useless

Are any stats to your liking?

[BlackJoker23]

Are any stats to your liking?
probably USG%.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No, some people do NOT know this. Yao Ming's Foot, Alpha Wolf, Ne_1 and several others. Unfortunately, these trolls are allowed to pollute this board constantly with their nonsense. The incredible volume of such nonsense the last month or so is what prompted the creation of this thread.

So why keep feeding them? They're just gonna go back and forth with you. All these threads do is waste bandwidth and space on the front page

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

So why keep feeding them? They're just gonna go back and forth with you. All these threads do is waste bandwidth and space on the front page
this is what nerds do, just let him live his life god damnit.

[Christofire]

Are any stats to your liking?
i just like the basic boxscore statistics for me to give reference to AFTER i watch the game. That's all i need. yeah i know the advanced stats and i look at them, but they don't hold any weight in my choice for who the better player is. I dont care how high Howard's PER he's shown me nothing that suggests he's a dominant player. Chris Paul has the highest PER among PG's but deron williams is better, and Rose has been better this year as well. Kevin love is like second in PER, but how many people take him over the 8-10 guys below him?.....

[DMAVS41]

i just like the basic boxscore statistics for me to give reference to AFTER i watch the game. That's all i need. yeah i know the advanced stats and i look at them, but they don't hold any weight in my choice for who the better player is.

I'm cool with that. So fg%, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, ppg...stuff like that.

All those stats would paint the same picture though.

[Doranku]

Anyone can chuck/ballhog their way to numbers. PER/WS measure efficiency and overall statistical contribution to team success. Again, no one denies that Kobe is a top 10 player - he's just not as good as many/most of the rest of the top 10 if we're talking prime vs. prime - especially not the guys on that list who clearly dominated by every metric. When people stop acting like HE IS as good as or better than those guys, I'll shut up.



He led in WS in a PLAYOFFS (not for a full season), and it was by .1, which is miniscule (and was largely because Kobe played 1.1 more mpg than Shaq). Meanwhile, Shaq led in PER that postseason by like 4, a much more significant difference.



Kobe had ONE season with a peak PER of 28.0, and he finished THIRD that season in PER. Sorry, but I and every other reasonable person look at how a player performs relative to their peers. Two players outperformed Kobe by way of PER in 2006, so he wasn't even the best that season. But he's supposedly better than guys like MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt? Sorry, but no. And it's that last point that I'm arguing against, and which was the impetus for this thread.

Actually, more people in this thread have argued against the bold than have argued that he's better than MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt. Obviously, he was never as good as those guys. I agree with you for sure.

I've seen posts saying he's top 15, top 12, and not even top 20 (lol). Not one person is saying he's better than those four players you listed.

Again, just because someone is a fan of Kobe doesn't mean they think he's the GOAT.

And come on, now. :oldlol: Anyone can chuck their way to 30/6/6 over 60+ playoff games while shooting ~46% and leading his team to three consecutive finals appearances and two championships? Be reasonable.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I'm cool with that. So fg%, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, ppg...stuff like that.

All those stats would paint the same picture though.
i have never been given any indication during kobes entire time in the league that he gives a damn about his stat line.

[DMAVS41]

i have never been given any indication during kobes entire time in the league that he gives a damn about his stat line.

I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest line of thinking. So he takes bad shots on purpose? He misses shots on purpose? He shoots a poor percentage this year in crunch time on purpose?

I love how people act like efficiency and stats don't contribute to wins and losses.

What is the first thing Phil Jackson looks at after a game? FG%.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest line of thinking. So he takes bad shots on purpose? He misses shots on purpose? He shoots a poor percentage this year in crunch time on purpose?

I love how people act like efficiency and stats don't contribute to wins and losses.

What is the first thing Phil Jackson looks at after a game? FG%.
so you think kobe cares about his stats?

[DMAVS41]

so you think kobe cares about his stats?

I don't know what relevance that has. I think Kobe cares that he scores the most points...thats for sure.

you are implying that kobe cares about the win more than stats.

fine. what happened in 03 vs the spurs? what happened in 04 vs the pistons. hell, what happened in game 7 against the suns in 06?

seems to me that he cared more about numbers and stats than winning those years.

[eliteballer]

Kobe is a better player than Bird when it comes to this rinky dink stat, per. But you'll never agree with that LOCO.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I don't know what relevance that has. I think Kobe cares that he scores the most points...thats for sure.

you are implying that kobe cares about the win more than stats.

fine. what happened in 03 vs the spurs? what happened in 04 vs the pistons. hell, what happened in game 7 against the suns in 06?

seems to me that he cared more about numbers and stats than winning those years.
cool...u had to go back 5-8 years to prove your point. well done. shame you couldn't include any vs. the mavs to further back up your point :D

[eliteballer]

Since when is per an authority on anything? A stat made up by some talking head on ESPN.

[Christofire]

I'm cool with that. So fg%, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, ppg...stuff like that.

All those stats would paint the same picture though.

i prefer to look at those stats on a game by game basis. you get a much better scope of the player's season that way, in terms of deciphering whether it was one of a streaky nature or consistency. Also by watching games you get to see why player A and/or Player B averages more assists and/or points or what have you than the other guy.

[DMAVS41]

cool...u had to go back 5-8 years to prove your point. well done. shame you couldn't include any vs. the mavs to further back up your point :D

what?

i'm saying that your argument doesn't hold water. which it doesn't. sorry. not sure what the mavs had to do with this discussion at all.

my question is simple. what happens when kobe chooses individual glory over winning? does your point hold true then as well.

you act like its a negative to want to be more efficient and not jack up shots outside the offense.

hilarious the lengths stans go to explain lesser stats. yep, kobe shoots 44.8% in the playoffs because he doesn't care about stats. LOL

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe is a better player than Bird when it comes to this rinky dink stat, per. But you'll never agree with that LOCO.

No, he isn't. Bird had 2x first place finishes, 2x second place finishes, and 2x third place finishes for a total of 6 top 3 finishes in PER. His effective career was also cut short by injuries, or you could count on at least 2 more top 3 finishes in PER in 1989 and '90. Kobe, by contrast, has just 2x top 3 finishes in PER (both times he was third). Bird dominated the league to a far greater extent than Kobe did by this metric.

[G.O.A.T]

let's not act like a player like Allen Iverson wouldn't have won rings with Shaq too.

There is no way of knowing if he would actually. This is my #1 pet peeve with people online.

Take any element out of the equation and you have no idea how the other ones around it will react.

Kobe and Duncan came to teams that had won nothing. They were good, not bad teams, but they had won nothing.

[eliteballer]

Who has a higher peak per, LOCO. Keep relying on a mickey mouse stat made by an ESPN talking head, who no player, GM, coach, or analyst relies upon.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

what?

i'm saying that your argument doesn't hold water. which it doesn't. sorry. not sure what the mavs had to do with this discussion at all.

my question is simple. what happens when kobe chooses individual glory over winning? does your point hold true then as well.

you act like its a negative to want to be more efficient and not jack up shots outside the offense.

hilarious the lengths stans go to explain lesser stats. yep, kobe shoots 44.8% in the playoffs because he doesn't care about stats. LOL
just as long as the lakers keep winning championships, i can give 2 sh!ts about stats and i believe kobe feels the same exact way. your agenda is obvious, i never see you argue in favor of bryant and i can understand why. you hate the man. why is that? and hey if your team was on its way to a 4th str8 finals appearance would you care if dirk was shooting 20%?

[Christofire]

No, he isn't. Bird had 2x first place finishes, 2x second place finishes, and 2x third place finishes for a total of 6 top 3 finishes in PER. His effective career was also cut short by injuries, or you could count on at least 2 more top 3 finishes in PER in 1989 and '90. Kobe, by contrast, has just 2x top 3 finishes in PER (both times he was third). Bird dominated the league to a far greater extent than Kobe did by this metric.


Oh....well i can say Kobe's PER was affected by finger injury and the Knee injury,

Kobe still has abetter career PER than bird despite his first 2 seasons. PER doesnt lie Koobe is better than Bird

[DMAVS41]

Who has a higher peak per, LOCO. Keep relying on a mickey mouse stat made by an ESPN talking head, who no player, GM, coach, or analyst relies upon.

What about fg%, 3p%, ft%, rebounds, and assists. Are those made up as well.

I think Kobe is better than his stats. A lot better actually. However, lets be real. Kobe fans generally hate all stats because Kobe doesn't have great stats.

It doesn't mean Kobe isn't great. Just means his stats overall aren't quite as good as some of the best ever.

And again. Kobe is better than his stats.

[comerb]

That is what makes Kobe so great. Nobody can figure him out on the court or on paper.
:rolleyes:

[Bigsmoke]

i thought that PER shit is old.

[comerb]

What about fg%, 3p%, ft%, rebounds, and assists. Are those made up as well.

I think Kobe is better than his stats. A lot better actually. However, lets be real. Kobe fans generally hate all stats because Kobe doesn't have great stats.

It doesn't mean Kobe isn't great. Just means his stats overall aren't quite as good as some of the best ever.

And again. Kobe is better than his stats.

Kobe is definitely better than his stats. He just takes a lot of really dumb shots.

[DMAVS41]

just as long as the lakers keep winning championships, i can give 2 sh!ts about stats and i believe kobe feels the same exact way. your agenda is obvious, i never see you argue in favor of bryant and i can understand why. you hate the man. why is that?

not at all. i actually really like Kobe. I spent years arguing for his side when i felt he was absurdly under-rated from 03 to 08.

now? i think he's grossly over-rated and gets far too much credit.

nothing would please more than Kobe playing amazing in the playoffs this year and finally having a great finals.....well.....unless Dirk and the Mavs win it all.

Other than the Mavs winning it, I'd prefer Kobe to have a great showing.

I go off what I've seen up to this point.

Your point about rings has nothing to do with this discussion. Winning rings is a team accomplishment.

And this is my problem with Kobe fans. No matter what the discussion is, it ultimately becomes about rings. Thats sad.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who has a higher peak per, LOCO. Keep relying on a mickey mouse stat made by an ESPN talking head, who no player, GM, coach, or analyst relies upon.

Yeah, by a measley .2 points. And absolute value doesn't matter nearly as much as how you fare relative to your league. Why couldn't Kobe EVER distinguish himself from his peers by any metric? No matter what you look at - PER, Win Shares, EFF, Player Wins, Wins Produced - Kobe has NEVER led the league in any of them even ONCE. It must be a CONSPIRACY OF STATS! :oldlol:

Again:

Bird - 6 top 3 finishes in PER, including 2x leading the league and 2x second place finihses

Kobe - 2x top 3 finishes in PER, both third place

Clearly, one of these players is more dominant than the other. One of these players dominated the league to a greater extent than the other.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The only fan base in history that fear numbers like Vampires do sunlight = Kobe fans.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

not at all. i actually really like Kobe. I spent years arguing for his side when i felt he was absurdly under-rated from 03 to 08.

now? i think he's grossly over-rated and gets far too much credit.

nothing would please more than Kobe playing amazing in the playoffs this year and finally having a great finals.....well.....unless Dirk and the Mavs win it all.

Other than the Mavs winning it, I'd prefer Kobe to have a great showing.

I go off what I've seen up to this point.

Your point about rings has nothing to do with this discussion. Winning rings is a team accomplishment.

And this is my problem with Kobe fans. No matter what the discussion is, it ultimately becomes about rings. Thats sad.
ever occur to you that it's because we are lakers fans before kobe fans? championships is all that really matters to me which is why you rarely see me engage in these ridiculous discussions. .

[BallsOut]

Why couldn't Kobe EVER distinguish himself from his peers by any metric?

2005-2006 season 35.4 ppg.

GG but I'm sure you'll ignore this post too.

[DMAVS41]

ever occur to you that it's because we are lakers fans before kobe fans?

Nah, because you try to assert that Kobe shooting outside the offense and shooting less than 45% in the playoffs somehow leads to wins.

Your point that Kobe doesn't care about stats just doesn't make sense. Never has and never will.

[chazzy]

Yeah, by a measley .2 points. And absolute value doesn't matternearly as much as how you fare relative to your league. Why couldn't Kobe EVER distinguish himself from his peers by any metric? No matter what you look at - PER, Win Shares, EFF, Player Wins, Wins Produced - Kobe has NEVER led the league in any of them even ONCE. It must be a CONSPIRACY OF STATS! :oldlol:

Again:

Bird - 6 top 3 finishes in PER, including 2x leading the league and 2x second place finihses

Kobe - 2x top 3 finishes in PER, both third place

Clearly, one of these players is more dominant than the other. One of these players dominated the league to a greater extent than the other.

Or it could mean Kobe played in a league with much better PER players! http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/system/profile/icon/33365/small/troll%20face.png

[OldSchoolBBall]

2005-2006 season 35.4 ppg.

GG but I'm sure you'll ignore this post too.

Wow, points per game. Is that all you've got? No one denies that Kobe is one of the best scorers ever - perhaps THE best at his absolute peak when he gets in the zone. He is not, by any measure, however, one of the 7 best players to ever play in terms of level of play and impact. Two different things.

I love how ppg is the only stat that matters and every other number, whether single (assists, FG% etc.) or aggregate (PER, EFF, WS, Wins Produced etc.) is skewed/biased against Kobe. What a fukcing JOKE. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

2005-2006 season 35.4 ppg.

GG but I'm sure you'll ignore this post too.

Iverson scored 2 less points on 2 less shots. Overall in 06 I thought Lebron was better anyway.

If we are just talking about scoring, then Kobe as the best that year. Overall? Its certainly debatable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Or it could mean Kobe played in a league with much better PER players! http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/system/profile/icon/33365/small/troll%20face.png

Or it could mean that every perimeter player and their mother had a career year that season because of the new rules. No coincidence Kobe hasn't approached his 2006 PER in any season before or since.

Why isn't Kobe better than his peers? Yet we're supposed to believe that he's better than all-time GOATs like KAJ, MJ, Wilt etc.? How does that work again? :oldlol:

[BallsOut]

Wow, points per game. Is that all you've got? No one denies that Kobe is one of the best scorers ever - perhaps THE best at his absolute peak when he gets in the zone. He is not, by any measure, however, one of the 7 best players to ever play in terms of level of play and impact. Two different things.

I love how ppg is the only stat that matters and every other number, whether single (assists, FG% etc.) or aggregate (PER, EFF, WS, Wins Produced etc.) is skewed/biased against Kobe. What a fukcing JOKE. :oldlol:

I just simply proved your outrageous claim incorrect. Kobe has distinguished himself from his peers using the example metric I just showed you. That was the intent of the post, to prove your claim wrong. I'll let other people take over from here seeing what little credibility you may have after that. I'm done here.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Nah, because you try to assert that Kobe shooting outside the offense and shooting less than 45% in the playoffs somehow leads to wins.

Your point that Kobe doesn't care about stats just doesn't make sense. Never has and never will.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

According to per Kevin Love is the 4th best player in the league and Kevin Martin is better than Lamarcus Aldridge, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, and Ramon Sessions is better than Chauncey Billups and Monta Ellis:lol

[chazzy]

Or it could mean that every perimeter player and their mother had a career year that season because of the new rules. No coincidence Kobe hasn't approached his 2006 PER in any season before or since.

Why isn't Kobe better than his peers? Yet we're supposed to believe that he's better than all-time GOATs like KAJ, MJ, Wilt etc.? How does that work again? :oldlol:
Do you not know what a troll face is? Sarcasm. Maybe I should've put it in green font too lol

And again to the bold, which non-troll said that? I swear people come up with reasons to tear down Kobe at any opportunity, even if the reasons are fabricated/irrelevant. The purpose of the thread is to shut down the growing notion that he is on those players' levels? That notion doesn't exist! Someone else made a thread solely to bash Kobe's decision making because of a YOUTUBE comment :oldlol: give me a break

[eliteballer]

And apparently Tony Allen and Thadeus young are better than Danny Granger, Rudy Gay, and Andre Igoudala. and Rondo is the same as Shawn Marion:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes, Kobe has distinguished himself from his peers in terms of ppg two times. Iverson's done it 4 times; Shaq's done it two times; TMac's done it two times; Durant's done it two times; Kareem did it twice; Gervin did it 4 times. Yet somehow Kobe is better than all of them, though, and is even better than guys like MJ/Wilt, who led in ppg 7-10x. **** outta here with that noise. :oldlol:

If ppg is the only way one distinguishes oneself from one's peers, Kobe has work to do to even pass Tmac/Durant, much less catch guys like MJ/Wilt/Gervin/Iverson.

But in some of THOSE cases (e.g., Durant, Iverson), Kobe fans want us to look at other factors and other numbers, because those numbers support him in those cases. When the numbers DON'T support Kobe, however - like when you compare him to basically ANY top 8 player of all-time - all of a sudden numbers don't mean anything and don't truly capture Kobe's greatness.

Again, GTFOH with that nonsense. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

DMAVS41; I too like Kobe's game. Aesthetically one of the more pleasing individual games to watch. I just want him to have that playoff and Finals series where you say, damn, he played to the hype (or even exceeded it).

He's a great player, no one is disputing that. I just dislike the fact he's overrated by his stans.

[OldSchoolBBall]

DThe purpose of the thread is to shut down the growing notion that he is on those players' levels? That notion doesn't exist!

Sure it does. Alpha Wolf, Ne_1, Yao Ming's Foot and others constantly troll this board spouting that Kobe > Jordan. Hell, even stealth trolls like eliteballer think that Kobe is basically equal to Jordan if not superior - he's just too much of a ***** to come out and say so, but the implications of many of his posts are clear.

[G.O.A.T.]

Then people should acknowledge the bolded and stop spouting nonsense.

you're speaking to the trolls who will never change their minds so why post?

[eliteballer]

Funny how LOCO calls out Kobe for playing with a lot of talent, then tries to bring him down by asking why hasn't he consistently led the league in PPG:roll:

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41; I too like Kobe's game. Aesthetically one of the more pleasing individual games to watch. I just want him to have that playoff and Finals series where you say, damn, he played to the hype (or even exceeded it).

He's a great player, no one is disputing that. I just dislike the fact he's overrated by his stans.

I agree. That is why I actually want Kobe to play well unless he's playing the Mavs.

I only go off what I've seen. That is all we have. Kobe is better than his stats show. Like many players. Shaq is better than his stats.

I feel, like others, that Kobe is a bit over-rated here in terms of level of play and impact. Virtually all stats back me up on that claim.

[chazzy]

Sure it does. Alpha Wolf, Ne_1
Stopped reading there. Does anyone take them seriously? No

[G.O.A.T.]

Stopped reading there. Does anyone take them seriously? No

Exactly, why doesn't he just PM his OP to those trolls if he cares so much about what they think.

[Calabis]

so you think kobe cares about his stats?

Hmmm why don't you???

from 2010:

First it was Jackson, using his halftime pep talk to comment on Bryant's volume of shots:

Jackson told the team at halftime, when Bryant had 23 of the Lakers' 50 points, that Bryant was "forcing the action." Jackson also said in the halftime locker room, alluding to the 29 points Bryant needed in the game to pass Jerry West: "Let's get him over the hump, so we can play team ball again."

Then it was Gasol, who has been vocal about his lack of touches in the past, piling on his coach's comments after the game:

Gasol was asked about Bryant's new record and offered politically correct

[B]

KBlaze tore this thread apart. Love how the Op avoids giving him more than a passing argument.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Kobe's a great player, and is definitely a top 10 player this year after #6.
But comparing him to Michael Jordan isn't fair.
He's overrated if you talk about catching MJ's legacy.
Otherwise he's not.
Advanced Statistic Metrics always underrate Kobe though.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

We're talking about a legit player, who's the record breaker?
We're talking about one of the guys with the best work ethic, outlasted all his peers and is still competing with his successors?
And your saying he sucks?

[Colby Brian]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

david robinson 2nd, neil jonhston 4th, chris paul 5th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

dwade 6th, bob petit 7th, chris paul 8th
:lol

[Javat_90]

so we are gonna judge 22 years old Lebron now playing against one of the best teams of last decade and being tripple teamed on every possession because nobody from his scrub team could do anything offensively besides him?:rolleyes:
He didn't shoot well in those series, but it's not like he had any legit help either.

Excuses excuses excuses.

If you`re going to use them, use them to judge everybody, not those who fit your agenda.

That or simply stfu.

[Javat_90]

Stopped reading there. Does anyone take them seriously? No

LOL, exactly.

In fact, one of them is former member called The_Logo who was previously banned.

They are intentionally trolling about Kobe so people take the bait, and the OP clearly gives them what they want.

[Harion]

The issue is that Kobe has had a great career. Full of spectacular plays and he's had team success as well. However, because of his playing style and the market he plays in he's been designated by many ignorant people to be in the Kareem, Jordan etc. echelon when in reality if we're purely talking about as a player, he's somewhere in the top 15 or so all time. The other thing is that he had the TALENT to be higher, but not the ability to put it all together consistently enough. He has a fatal flaw to his game that a lot of people are unwilling to accept which is shot selection and single mindedness, sometimes to the detriment of the team concept.. He's been lucky enough to be on teams that provide enough of a cushion to where he can play like that and still have success, being that he IS a very talented player. However he's not the type of player that is going to get solid to good teams over the hump or overachieve with them. Again, he's such a prolific scorer that if he gets on a hot streak, a team he's on is going to have a chance to win but he needs a very specific situation for that to work long term which he's been fortunate enough to have. His inefficiency at times, and stubbornness mean that he needs a team that's solid on the boards and in d to make up for all the times he's going to shoot poorly.

The current Lakers have the perfect scenario for that. They don't win because of Kobe. He is obviously a major factor in their success but they win primarily because they have 7 footers that no one can deal with on a regular basis. These 7 footers provide interior intimidation on d, get a ridiculous amt of offensive boards which are KILLERS to teams and are all incredibly mobile and versatile. That is a lot to overcome regardless of who your starting sg is. In addition, along with all of that they have a player in Artest who may be challenged offensively but is going to take on the defensive load which helps Kobe conserve energy tremendously. The game has traditionally been about interior play and the Lakers have an overload of it.

So Kobe's had the right mixture of talent and luck. These two things plus playing style lead to him being as overrated as he is. Great player, but not what the hype suggests.
:applause: yep. i just hate the fact how these Kobe nvthuggers downplay his teammates and what they've have done for him to secure for him those rings. every fkn LA loss it's Gasol's fault, Fisher, Artest, goddamn, even last time PJax was blamed. wtf?

[indiefan24]

:applause: yep. i just hate the fact how these Kobe nvthuggers downplay his teammates and what they've have done for him to secure for him those rings. every fkn LA loss it's Gasol's fault, Fisher, Artest, goddamn, even last time PJax was blamed. wtf?

goddamn do you ever stop posting about kobe?

[rmt]

I can understand why (maybe) Kobe doesn't match up (PER) to the other top 10ers because most of them are big men and maybe the stat is skewed toward rebounds or something.

So, would some one please give a logical explanation as to why PER is so good to Jordan and so (relatively) bad to Kobe when they both play the same position in the same system under the same coach? And this is even with the hand-check rule in place.

[Javat_90]

The fact that you Jordan stans keep wanting to debate and consider seriously the "Kobe vs Jordan" topic, when most of us Lakers fans dont, speaks a lot about Kobe really.

Are you guys really that insecure?

[Colby Brian]

http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/product-images/P670339-01/kobe-bryant-2010-nba-finals-game-7-championship-trophy5-fingers-in-studio27.jpg

how many top 10 players have 5 rings?

[AirJordan&Magic]

Not to pile on to the retarded Kobe hatred in this thread by the usual clowns.... But one thing I do agree with (which was stated by Knoe Itawl), is that as good as Kobe is, he still has one flaw in his game that tends to make me angry and that is his shot selection.

It angers me because the guy is a 15 year veteran but at times, look like Jr Smith on the court. At times, he just lacks the consistency and b.ball iq that the rest of the top 10 players had.

[SavageMode]

Kobrick Cryant.

[brownmamba00]

http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/product-images/P670339-01/kobe-bryant-2010-nba-finals-game-7-championship-trophy5-fingers-in-studio27.jpg

how many top 10 players have 5 rings?
but but but he's not top 10 per :cry:

[Colby Brian]

Kobrick Cryant.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/e7c7b33a.jpg


http://files.sharenator.com/Kobe_U_Mad_Apparently_Superwoman_has_an_eyesight_p roblem-s230x180-135498-410.jpg

Yeah You Mad

[Scoooter]

Is he ever going to get that finger fixed? Jordan has a busted-ass looking finger too.

[Colby Brian]

Is he ever going to get that finger fixed? Jordan has a busted-ass looking finger too.

i think its permanatly athritic

[Insiderbball]

Kobe is one of those players who's gonna be considered overrated once they retire, just like Iverson.

While right now you can support them with hype. 10 years after they retire, people are mostly gonna look at stats, and its something that Kobe is not very good at.

[SavageMode]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/umadmiamiheat-kobebryant-1.jpg


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Miami%20Heat/e7c7b33a.jpg


http://files.sharenator.com/Kobe_U_Mad_Apparently_Superwoman_has_an_eyesight_p roblem-s230x180-135498-410.jpg

Yeah You Mad
Nope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_i3Vnd0n44&feature=related

[Colby Brian]

Kobe is one of those players who's gonna be considered overrated once they retire, just like Iverson.

While right now you can support them with hype. 10 years after they retire, people are mostly gonna look at stats, and its something that Kobe is not very good at.

yeah those 5 rings, or more are not gonna look good :rolleyes:

[Insiderbball]

yeah those 5 rings, or more are not gonna look good :rolleyes:

2 which belong to him, pretty good, but not as good as Kobe homers state it.

[Colby Brian]

2 which belong to him, pretty good, but not as good as Kobe homers state it.

:facepalm

he has 5 that belong to him, was he not on the 2000-02 lakers?

magic - 5 rings, 3 fmvps
kareem - 6 rings, 2 fmvps

so 3 rings belong to magic, and 2 to kareem, man gtfo

[Insiderbball]

Fisher was on those teams too, does that mean Fisher = Kobe?

[Colby Brian]

Fisher was on those teams too, does that mean Fisher = Kobe?

why do people always use this blind ignorance on kobe :facepalm

fisher isnt on kobes level brah

[Insiderbball]

why do people always use this blind ignorance on kobe :facepalm

fisher isnt on kobes level brah

and kobe isn't on shaq's level

[B]

Fisher was on those teams too, does that mean Fisher = Kobe?You're not a very good "insider" I want my money back.

[chris2010]

and kobe isn't on shaq's level

your right. which is a good thing b/c he is looking down toward him as of now.

[Javat_90]

And here comes the back and forth display of "u mad" pictures until one side gets tired and the other one claims "internet victory".

So awesome...:rolleyes:

[DRose1899]

SMH these people saying like he's mediocre player or something :facepalm
5 rings and 6th top scorer of all times and still counting folks.
Overrated or not, chucker or not, you won't see much player that achieve as much as Kobe did in your short life..

[the_wise_one]

Actually ISH is one of the only places where Kobe's top 10 status is argued. All illogical/idiotic fans on every basketball boards have Kobe at either 9 or 10.

Fixed.

[the_wise_one]

Actually ISH is one of the only places where Kobe's top 10 status is argued. All illogical/idiotic fans on every basketball boards have Kobe at either 9 or 10.

Fixed.

[Doranku]

Can someone answer me this question?

Why is it that Jordan stans, who believe that Jordan is clearly the GOAT and Kobe isn't even close, are the ones to make the most comparisons between the two out of ANY fan base out there?

If you want people to stop comparing them, why are you the main instigators of it?

I just don't understand.

[Fatal9]

Relative to league is cool and all but I'm pretty sure LeBron is having a 27+ PER in the 80s (more like 30+ in reality). Guarantee you players who led with a PER of 25 in the 80s would not do so with a guy like LeBron (and others) in the league. And even then, Kobe was what .09 away from doing it in 2006? He is all of a sudden a better player if he misses a couple of shots less that season? His '07 PER would lead the league in many years, as would his PER in '03 (in midst of one of the toughest defensive eras ever, higher than guys like Duncan/KG who were in their prime).

Kobe's peak PER is right there amongst many of the top 10 players in both the regular season and the playoffs. No matter which way you slice it too, take peak PER, take best three or four year PER, it's right there if not higher. His PER in his championship runs have been amongst the tops ever as well. Two championships of PER over 25+, how many players have done that? Kareem, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. Pretty sure that's it. Pretty fukking impressive to be the only perimeter along with MJ to be in that company no?

PER I will give SOME credibility because it's a good measure of a statline if nothing else, I do like that it adjusts for minutes/pace/etc. As long as people recognize it for what it is (sums up a player's stats, not his impact), it's alright, though there are a lot of flaws with it still. Winshares though are fukking useless, can't believe people give it the time of day.

[whoartthou]

Relative to league is cool and all but I'm pretty sure LeBron is having a 27+ PER in the 80s (more like 30+ in reality). Guarantee you players who led with a PER of 25 in the 80s would not do so with a guy like LeBron (and others) in the league. And even then, Kobe was what .09 away from doing it in 2006? He is all of a sudden a better player if he misses a couple of shots less that season? His '07 PER would lead the league in many years, as would his PER in '03 (in midst of one of the toughest defensive eras ever, higher than guys like Duncan/KG who were in their prime).

Kobe's peak PER is right there amongst many of the top 10 players in both the regular season and the playoffs. No matter which way you slice it too, take peak PER, take best three or four year PER, it's right there if not higher. His PER in his championship runs have been amongst the tops ever as well. Two championships of PER over 25+, how many players have done that? Kareem, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. Pretty sure that's it. Pretty fukking impressive to be the only perimeter along with MJ to be in that company no?

PER I will give SOME credibility because it's a good measure of a statline if nothing else, I do like that it adjusts for minutes/pace/etc. As long as people recognize it for what it is (sums up a player's stats, not his impact), it's alright, though there are a lot of flaws with it still. Winshares though are fukking useless though, can't believe people give it the time of day.

of course its useless. It does not favor your boy one bit!

[Rysio]

Relative to league is cool and all but I'm pretty sure LeBron is having a 27+ PER in the 80s (more like 30+ in reality). Guarantee you players who led with a PER of 25 in the 80s would not do so with a guy like LeBron (and others) in the league. And even then, Kobe was what .09 away from doing it in 2006? He is all of a sudden a better player if he misses a couple of shots less that season? His '07 PER would lead the league in many years, as would his PER in '03 (in midst of one of the toughest defensive eras ever, higher than guys like Duncan/KG who were in their prime).

Kobe's peak PER is right there amongst many of the top 10 players in both the regular season and the playoffs. No matter which way you slice it too, take peak PER, take best three or four year PER, it's right there if not higher. His PER in his championship runs have been amongst the tops ever as well. Two championships of PER over 25+, how many players have done that? Kareem, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. Pretty sure that's it. Pretty fukking impressive to be the only perimeter along with MJ to be in that company no?

PER I will give SOME credibility because it's a good measure of a statline if nothing else, I do like that it adjusts for minutes/pace/etc. As long as people recognize it for what it is (sums up a player's stats, not his impact), it's alright, though there are a lot of flaws with it still. Winshares though are fukking useless, can't believe people give it the time of day.
:applause:

[Insiderbball]

kobe without his 2005-2006 season is nothing more than a 6'6 allen iverson

[Ne 1]

Since when is per an authority on anything? A stat made up by some talking head on ESPN.

PER is subjective and a flawed stat. Hollinger gave the most value to what he felt was most important. Essentially anyone could make a similar stat to PER crediting one category more than another, and thus the list would change.

It isn't anymore viable then if anyone on this site were to make a formula up with their personal beliefs of how stats should be valued.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Relative to league is cool and all but I'm pretty sure LeBron is having a 27+ PER in the 80s (more like 30+ in reality). Guarantee you players who led with a PER of 25 in the 80s would not do so with a guy like LeBron (and others) in the league. And even then, Kobe was what .09 away from doing it in 2006? He is all of a sudden a better player if he misses a couple of shots less that season? His '07 PER would lead the league in many years, as would his PER in '03 (in midst of one of the toughest defensive eras ever, higher than guys like Duncan/KG who were in their prime).

Kobe's peak PER is right there amongst many of the top 10 players in both the regular season and the playoffs. No matter which way you slice it too, take peak PER, take best three or four year PER, it's right there if not higher. His PER in his championship runs have been amongst the tops ever as well. Two championships of PER over 25+, how many players have done that? Kareem, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. Pretty sure that's it. Pretty fukking impressive to be the only perimeter along with MJ to be in that company no?

PER I will give SOME credibility because it's a good measure of a statline if nothing else, I do like that it adjusts for minutes/pace/etc. As long as people recognize it for what it is (sums up a player's stats, not his impact), it's alright, though there are a lot of flaws with it still. Winshares though are fukking useless, can't believe people give it the time of day.

Kobe's 3-4 year peak PER pales in comparison to MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq, and Duncan and Hakeem's peak PERs are roughly equal to Kobe's, plus they have FAR greater defensive impact than Kobe. Kobe actually has one of the lowest peaks of any top 10 player. Only guys you can begin to argue him against are Duncan and Magic, and not many people would be buying what you're selling. He's clearly below MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem, and I know you in particular are not going to try to argue for him over Bird.

Again, your tangent about how his PER in certain seasons would be ranked higher in other seasons is irrelevant. PER is an in-season metric; all that matters is how you compare to your peers. Why hasn't Kobe EVER distinguished himself by ANY metric? I've cited PER and Win Shares here, but the same also holds for EFF, Wins Produced, Player Wins, and any other advanced/aggregate metric. The stats all seem to conspire against Kobe. Or maybe - JUST MAYBE - he's not as good as his more zealous fans think he is.

[whoartthou]

Kobe's 3-4 year peak PER pales in comparison to MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq, and Duncan and Hakeem's peak PERs are roughly equal to Kobe's, plus they have FAR greater defensive impact than Kobe. Kobe actually has one of the lowest peaks of any top 10 player. Only guys you can begin to argue him against are Duncan and Magic, and not many people would be buying what you're selling. He's clearly below MJ/KAJ/Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem, and I know you in particular are not going to try to argue for him over Bird.

Again, your tangent about how his PER in certain seasons would be ranked higher in other seasons is irrelevant. PER is an in-season metric; all that matters is how you compare to your peers. Why hasn't Kobe EVER distinguished himself by ANY metric? I've cited PER and Win Shares here, but the same also holds for EFF, Wins Produced, Player Wins, and any other advanced/aggregate metric. The stats all seem to conspire against Kobe. Or maybe - JUST MAYBE - he's not as good as his more zealous fans think he is.

stats IMHO do post an accurate picture. Like you have already mentioned, their is a reason why 9 of the top 10 players of all time have lead in many of these advanced stats during their tenure... with kobe obviously being the exception.

Kobe is great, no doubt about it. BUT I HONESTLY believe that a vince carter, allen iverson, or even ray allen would have won atleast 2 ships during kobes first 3 peat.

Kobe is a product of circumstance... and the circumstances were that he had stacked teams majority of his career. He is like the rich he ir/trust fund kid who although is talented himself, gets it easy.

[heyhey]

Again, your tangent about how his PER in certain seasons would be ranked higher in other seasons is irrelevant. PER is an in-season metric; all that matters is how you compare to your peers. Why hasn't Kobe EVER distinguished himself by ANY metric? I've cited PER and Win Shares here, but the same also holds for EFF, Wins Produced, Player Wins, and any other advanced/aggregate metric. The stats all seem to conspire against Kobe. Or maybe - JUST MAYBE - he's not as good as his more zealous fans think he is.

No it's more like all of those stats measure the exact same thing. In that way they are endogenous and are correlated with one another so obviously a player that's undervalued by one of those metric will also be undervalued by other metrics in the same vein

[OldSchoolBBall]

No it's more like all of those stats measure the exact same thing. In that way they are endogenous and are correlated with one another so obviously a player that's undervalued by one of those metric will also be undervalued by other metrics in the same vein

...except that they're all formulated differently, weight different factors differently, and were created by different people.

What you're saying is that Kobe's greatness simply defies any and all objective measurement. That's a joke. The more obvious explanation is, as I've said, that he simply isn't as good as his more zealous fans think he is. Great player? Sure. Top 10 all-time? Sure. Equal to or better than MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/Hakeem prime vs. prime? No way, no how - especially not MJ/KAJ.

[whoartthou]

...except that they're all formulated differently, weight different factors differently, and were created by different people.

What you're saying is that Kobe's greatness simply defies any and all objective measurement. That's a joke. The more obvious explanation is, as I've said, that he simply isn't as good as his more zealous fans think he is. Great player? Sure. Top 10 all-time? Sure. Equal to or better than MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/Hakeem prime vs. prime? No way, no how - especially not MJ/KAJ.

Kobe is seriously one of the most overrated fking superstars ever.

[Round Mound]

Barkley was way more dominant and efficient than Kobe ever was

Even though he was never the same from 1996 on u can easily see Barkley was 2 times the 2nd Best Season Player (PER) and 1 Time in the Play-Offs

Barkley is Top 11 All Time in PER, Season and Play-Offs
Barkley is Top 10 All Time in EFF
Barkley is Top 5 All Time in +/-
Barkley is Top 4 All Time in Made Shot/Shot Missed Diferential

Incredible how the Media has hyped Kobe was if he was a Dominant Player

How underrated was the Great Sir Charles.

[Javat_90]

Barkley was way more dominant and efficient than Kobe ever was

Even though he was never the same from 1996 on u can easily see Barkley was 2 times the 2nd Best Season Player (PER) and 1 Time in the Play-Offs

Barkley is Top 11 All Time in PER, Season and Play-Offs
Barkley is Top 10 All Time in EFF
Barkley is Top 5 All Time in +/-
Barkley is Top 4 All Time in Made Shot/Shot Missed Diferential

Incredible how the Media has hyped Kobe was if he was a Dominant Player

How underrated was the Great Sir Charles.

Who gives a f*ck about Barkley now you idiot.

This thread has nothing to do with him.

:oldlol: @ this crazy stan bringing him out of nowhere.

[HighFlyer23]

Who gives a f*ck about Barkley now you idiot.

This thread has nothing to do with him.

:oldlol: @ this crazy stan bringing him out of nowhere.

:roll: :roll:

[Mirjalovic]

That is what makes Kobe so great. Nobody can figure him out on the court or on paper.
:cheers:

[Heilige]

Barkley was way more dominant and efficient than Kobe ever was

Even though he was never the same from 1996 on u can easily see Barkley was 2 times the 2nd Best Season Player (PER) and 1 Time in the Play-Offs

Barkley is Top 11 All Time in PER, Season and Play-Offs
Barkley is Top 10 All Time in EFF
Barkley is Top 5 All Time in +/-
Barkley is Top 4 All Time in Made Shot/Shot Missed Diferential

Incredible how the Media has hyped Kobe was if he was a Dominant Player

How underrated was the Great Sir Charles.

Charles Barkley said last night Kobe Bryant was #6 on his all-time list.

Here is his list:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Bill Russell

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

6. Kobe Bryant

[Allstar24]

Loki making Kobe threads? It must be time for the playoffs. I'm not going to read any of this but I like it...someone is worried about Kobe getting that 6th ring :oldlol:

[Rojogaqu11]

Kobe is one of the best ever, but even as a fan, I can say that he doesn't have enough scoring outbursts to outweigh his bricking outbursts.
That's why he is not at the elite level of MJ, Kareem, etc. because he never learned to simplify the game even with his exceptional talent.
He doesn't have winning basketball habits on the court, only off the court. With all the success he's had, it's scary to think he could have had even more.

[Carbine]

Kevin Love has the best WS in the league - he's not even an elite big man.

The probable, and deserving MVP of the league this year is not even the leader in WS for his team. Rose isn't even in the top 50.

Bottom line - these formulas are dumb.

[Psileas]

As a spin-off to the OP, isn't Tim Duncan the only player in the list who has no stat titles in the 8 traditional categories?

[rmt]

Charles Barkley said last night Kobe Bryant was #6 on his all-time list.

Here is his list:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Bill Russell

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

6. Kobe Bryant

Kobe > Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem? :roll:

Barkley picked Allen Iverson out of all the players in NBA history to start his team. He said last night that DEN would easily beat SAS. Just saying that Charles some times shoots his mouth off.


As a spin-off to the OP, isn't Tim Duncan the only player in the list who has no stat titles in the 8 traditional categories?

What stats do you need but that Tim Duncan has won 4 rings as the man?