Dwight Howard 46 pts 19 rebs, but Magic lose to Hawks in Round 1, game 1

[opps]

Deserves its own thread :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[EoJ]

I predict he scores 50+ and magic lose..

[redhonda76]

Yeah, but the Hawks are leading. Let Dwight go off and shut down the shooters. Same tactic of how the Spurs did to the Suns so many times many playoffs ago.

[kaiiu]

Best player in the NBA

[jlauber]

Yes, but using the very reliable + - stat, the Magic are losing BECAUSE of him. They are -7 with him on the court. Meanwhile, Ryan Anderson has been their best player, at +5, with his ZERO points and two rebounds.

Based on that, I think that Van Gundy will bench Howard in the second half.

Hell, Derrick Rose was only the Bulls' FIFTH best player on the court today using that fabled stat.

[opps]

Yeah, but the Hawks are leading. Let Dwight go off and shut down the shooters. Same tactic of how the Spurs did to the Suns so many times many playoffs ago.

Yeah I know the team sucks. But its great to see our future Laker putting up these numbers. just kidding :oldlol:

[SCdac]

having a solid game so far for sure. they're probably better off with more balanced scoring, but who knows if that'll happen. about a point in a half per minute is pretty damn good though

[NBASTATMAN]

Best player in the NBA


him and rose are the two best players.. :bowdown:

[b1imtf]

Yes, but using the very reliable + - stat, the Magic are losing BECAUSE of him. They are -7 with him on the court. Meanwhile, Ryan Anderson has been their best player, at +5, with his ZERO points and two rebounds.

Based on that, I think that Van Gundy will bench Howard in the second half.
True that, fantastic analisys :bowdown: :bowdown:

[thatoneblackguy]

The real MVP.

[SCdac]

Yeah, but the Hawks are leading. Let Dwight go off and shut down the shooters. Same tactic of how the Spurs did to the Suns so many times many playoffs ago.

Yeah, I actually think prime Amare and Dwight aren't that far from each other - on offense I mean. Amare takes/took alot more jump shots, but both great finishers, yet him and Dwight aren't exceptionally great passers or creating for others so might as well let them go off and shut rest of the team down. If you don't necessarily have to hard double and triple team Dwight to win the game than don't do it.

[RoseCity07]

Holy sh*t. Game is on in the other room but I've been reading all pre playoff articles about Portland.

I'm definitely going to watch the second half. What if he gets 60?

I said before the game, what a joke it was that Collins could stop Dwight. He is possibly the last guy in the league who could stop Dwight. Just shows how much of a joke ESPN is. They don't know sh*t about teams outside of Miami, Boston, and LA.

[LilEddyCurry]

him and rose are the two best players.. :bowdown:
No. Not Rose

[jlauber]

The way this game is going right now, and midway thru the 3rd quarter, he is not going to score 40 points.

[Bigsmoke]

haha Hawks winning

[Bigsmoke]

No. Not Rose

and not howard.

if anything, the Magic are losing because they are relying too much on Howard.

[Colby Brian]

:applause: hope he gets 40

[nathanjizzle]

dwight howard has 5 fouls and 8 turn overs in a playoff game. Not MVP material

[jlauber]

dwight howard has 5 fouls and 8 turn overs in a playoff game. Not MVP material

I know... 40 points on 14-21 shooting with 16 rebounds, and still some five minutes left. What a "flop."

[nathanjizzle]

I know... 40 points on 14-21 shooting with 16 rebounds, and still some five minutes left. What a "flop."

and his team is loosing by double digits, wonder if his 8 TO or 5 fouls had anythign to do with that....

[demons2005]

classic stat-monger.

This is why i didnt consider him for MVP. Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it". He doesn't impact the game like a Rose or Kobe

[nathanjizzle]

classic stat-monger.

This is why i didnt consider him for MVP. Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it". He doesn't impact the game like a Rose or Kobe


what he said. Dwight will never win a championship without a superstar playing with him. Just like every other superstar center that has ever played

[jlauber]

classic stat-monger.

This is why i didnt consider him for MVP. Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it". He doesn't impact the game like a Rose or Kobe

Yep... 46 points on 70% shooting, with 19 rebounds, in 46 minutes, ...while his teammates shot 35% and collectively had 21 rebounds.

I said it earlier in this post...Van Gundy should have benched him and his -10 for Ryan Anderson's ZERO points, but +9 production.

After that "stats-mongering' performance, I think Van Gundy will probably cut Howard before the next game.

[KingBeasley08]

and his team is loosing by double digits, wonder if his 8 TO or 5 fouls had anythign to do with that....
or mabye anyone on his team not named Nelson had to do with it....

[ShaqAttack3234]

classic stat-monger.

This is why i didnt consider him for MVP. Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it". He doesn't impact the game like a Rose or Kobe

Yet Dwight has led a team to the finals, led two teams to the conference finals and won over 50 games 4 consecutive seasons. But yeah....the guy is a loser. Rose can only dream of impacting a game like Dwight. Rose has a great defense backing him and a great rebounding team while Dwight IS his team's defense and carries the rebounding load while still averaging about 10 more ppg than anyone else on his team.

[jlauber]

Yet Dwight has led a team to the finals, led two teams to the conference finals and won over 50 games 4 consecutive seasons. But yeah....the guy is a loser. Rose can only dream of impacting a game like Dwight. Rose has a great defense backing him and a great rebounding team while Dwight IS his team's defense and carries the rebounding load while still averaging about 10 more ppg than anyone else on his team.

Yep...give me a career winner like Joe Johnson any day of the week.

[STATUTORY]

and I suspect all the other teams do too. Let Dwight beat you, shut down the outside shooters. that's the way to beat the Magic. 6-22 on three pointers, that's an automatic loss for Orlando.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Its official Dwight is going to the lakers.:rockon:

[Ikill]

Its official Dwight is going to the lakers.:rockon:
naw Dwight goin home to chill wit his number one boy still

[Bigsmoke]

its not like the Magic were going to win the championship in the first place.

[jlauber]

and I suspect all the other teams do too. Let Dwight beat you, shut down the outside shooters. that's the way to beat the Magic. 6-22 on three pointers, that's an automatic loss for Orlando.

Sadly, that is true. If Hedu and JRich are going to collectively shoot 4-17, then there is a real good chance that Orlando is not going to win.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Dwight Howard taking his talents to Minneapolis in 2012.

God can't find you there

[SCdac]

it's impressive that he can score that much, but the Magic aren't going to go far if he has to carry such a scoring load. reminding me of 2005 Amare vs. the Spurs. In that final game of the series Amare went off for 42 points and Nash had 21 but the Suns put up a meager 95 points to lose the game.

[bagelred]

They sure does

[STATUTORY]

Dwight Howard taking his talents to Minneapolis in 2012.

God can't find you there

lol no. Beasley and Howard will both take their talents to LA asap

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

lol no. Beasley and Howard will both take their talents to LA asap

That would be good :oldlol: :oldlol:

PG Derrick Rose
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Michael Beasley
PF Pau Gasol
C Dwight Howard

6TH Man Andrew Bynum

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wet Dreams Scenarios

[jlauber]

Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it".

Wow... Rose is being considered a "winner" in just his third NBA season, and with two years of team records of 41-41. And in those two years, his team was eliminated in the first round, too (last year they were wiped out 4-1 by the Cavs.)Let's just annoint the guy as THE GOAT now, then.

[Bigsmoke]

Dwight is staying in Orlando. watch

[Pointguard]

This is why i didnt consider him for MVP. Rose is a winner Howard can put up as many points and rebounds as he wants but he doesnt have "it". He doesn't impact the game like a Rose or Kobe

The center position is a strange monster these days.

No other position does a guy score 31points in the first half and they don't even change their strategy on him the second half. It was a "its ok, go get yours." To me its the position. If Lebron, Kobe, Wade or Rose go for 31 in a half, you have no choice but to change strategy.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Dwight is staying in Orlando. watch

only if they pick up Michael Beasley and Chris Paul or D-Will :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Kobe24Clutch]

Its official dwight is going to join the lakers:rockon:

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

Sometimes I feel like the Magic are a better team without Howard, they run and gun more without him, and are in a better offensive flow. The way they played against the Bulls last week was amazing

[N0Skillz]

Monster Game For A Monster Center

[N0Skillz]

Turkey Glue gotta step up.

[Celtics 1825]

And they still lost :lol

[Colby Brian]

:applause:
if howard loses this series, hes gonna be pissed, and ask for a trade

[Christofire]

Monster Game For A Monster Center

he lost Noone cares!!!.....

[lilbeastnani]

:applause:
if howard loses this series, hes gonna be pissed, and ask for a trade
bingo.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sometimes I feel like the Magic are a better team without Howard, they run and gun more without him, and are in a better offensive flow. The way they played against the Bulls last week was amazing

Yeah, that 1-3 record without him and the 2.3 ppg they were outscored by when he was off the court sure suggest that. :rolleyes:

[StackzUp]

It's quite sad that Howard can beast so much and have his team still lose. Dwight needs a legit wingman/SG to help him out because theres no way Magics should be losing when Dwight does so much work. Magic are nothing, but a 3 point shooting team outside of Dwight and when they shut that down they lose. He needs to have someone who can do it all not just shoot beyond the arc. Nelson stepped up huge for them, but beyond them two there was no input at all.

[SCdac]

if we're talking stats, don't forget about Howard having almost as many turnovers as the entire Hawks team... but a great game for Howard offensively (surprised only 1 block, but D goes beyond block stats)... not exactly a great game for the Magic altogether.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

what he said. Dwight will never win a championship without a superstar playing with him. Just like every other superstar center that has ever played

Hakeen Olajuwon says you're wrong ******.

[ashbelly]

8 turnovers and a loss.. hmmm.. :oldlol:

[SCdac]

It's quite sad that Howard can beast so much and have his team still lose. Dwight needs a legit wingman/SG to help him out because theres no way Magics should be losing when Dwight does so much work. Magic are nothing, but a 3 point shooting team outside of Dwight and when they shut that down they lose. He needs to have someone who can do it all not just shoot beyond the arc. Nelson stepped up huge for them, but beyond them two there was no input at all.

Howard had a great team back in 2009 (but they've gotten worse since then)... In that playoff run, the Magic actually won a playoff game without Howard even playing at all (Game 6 @ Philadelphia).

[StackzUp]

Howard had a great team back in 2009 (but they've gotten worse since then)... In that playoff run, the Magic actually won a playoff game without Howard even playing at all (Game 6 @ Philadelphia).

They had a great team, but for some reason split all that apart and are now left with what they got. They can be very dangerous on offense, but that is mainly because of the 3 point shooting. If you watch them play you can see the players waiting behind the 3 line waiting to take the shot. Shut that down and its all money from there because Dwight can only do so much. Magic needed one more player to step up, but they all relied on the three too much.

[Scoooter]

What's crazy is how many times he had great post position and no one would give him the ball. They got, like, 4 three-second violations off of that bullshit. Imagine if he had Steve Nash running with him. He'd have had 60.

[nightprowler10]

I know... 40 points on 14-21 shooting with 16 rebounds, and still some five minutes left. What a "flop."
How is "not MVP material" equate to "flop"? Do you go to bat for everyone that scores efficiently? Regardless of how the rest of his team fares?

[juju151111]

Sometimes I feel like the Magic are a better team without Howard, they run and gun more without him, and are in a better offensive flow. The way they played against the Bulls last week was amazing
I am sorry, but that statement is so dumb its crazy.

[Orlando Magic]

Everyone who agrees with you is a dumb shit as it pertains to this game, at least. Regardless of "letting Dwight beat them" (which they didn't let him do anything, and tried to double and triple sometimes), the Magic supporting cast outside of Nelson didn't show up until the second half of the 4th quarter. One eighth of a game playing defense is not going to win in the playoffs. They gave up 100+ points for the first time in like 13 playoff games or something ridiculous like that. The Hawks had a lot of bounces go their way tonight. This series will not continue play out like this unless Van Gundy is absolutely unable to get anything out of his players.

They literally showed no heart and relied too much on Dwight to carry them. The biggest problem with the Orlando offense is that Dwight is not a fantastic passer. If he was as good at finding the open man as Shaq or Hakeem, the Magic would be extremely tough to beat. But he's not, and I don't ever expect him to be. This loss and all of their inconsistency falls on Van Gundy and the rest of the team for not playing defense most of the game.

They have got to get him a star perimeter player to pair up with OR go back to the stretch 4 along with a bunch of guys willing to play defense on the perimeter, of which we have none at the moment. That is all that needs to be said. Dwight is a fantastic post scorer as an individual but he is not a fantastic team oriented offensive player. He is the best there is at team defense, and he's a great scorer with great moves despite people saying otherwise, but he has little to no effect on the Magic's offense as a team because the rest of those guys just stand there and watch him. He either scores, turns it over or gets fouled. He rarely hits a cutting man because there are none, and he rarely finds the open guy on the perimeter with the correct pass at the correct time.

Van Gundy has to create a working offense, and he absolutely hasn't done that this year at all. And he also needs to get his perimeter players to play defense, which he has also been unable to do.

[MayCeltics]

30-29 :applause:

The most fouled man in the NBA on team, and no Free-throw discrepancy.

[Ikill]

Everyone who agrees with you is a dumb shit as it pertains to this game, at least. Regardless of "letting Dwight beat them" (which they didn't let him do anything, and tried to double and triple sometimes), the Magic supporting cast outside of Nelson didn't show up until the second half of the 4th quarter. One eighth of a game playing defense is not going to win in the playoffs. They gave up 100+ points for the first time in like 13 playoff games or something ridiculous like that. The Hawks had a lot of bounces go their way tonight. This series will not continue play out like this unless Van Gundy is absolutely unable to get anything out of his players.

They literally showed no heart and relied too much on Dwight to carry them. The biggest problem with the Orlando offense is that Dwight is not a fantastic passer. If he was as good at finding the open man as Shaq or Hakeem, the Magic would be extremely tough to beat. But he's not, and I don't ever expect him to be. This loss and all of their inconsistency falls on Van Gundy and the rest of the team for not playing defense most of the game.

They have got to get him a star perimeter player to pair up with OR go back to the stretch 4 along with a bunch of guys willing to play defense on the perimeter, of which we have none at the moment. That is all that needs to be said. Dwight is a fantastic post scorer as an individual but he is not a fantastic team oriented offensive player. He is the best there is at team defense, and he's a great scorer with great moves despite people saying otherwise, but he has little to no effect on the Magic's offense as a team because the rest of those guys just stand there and watch him. He either scores, turns it over or gets fouled. He rarely hits a cutting man because there are none, and he rarely finds the open guy on the perimeter with the correct pass at the correct time.

Van Gundy has to create a working offense, and he absolutely hasn't done that this year at all. And he also needs to get his perimeter players to play defense, which he has also been unable to do.
everything you say is stupid so i'm not reading that shit

[marion706]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhGeQWOHwHQ&feature=relmfu

[SCdac]

They had a great team, but for some reason split all that apart and are now left with what they got. They can be very dangerous on offense, but that is mainly because of the 3 point shooting. If you watch them play you can see the players waiting behind the 3 line waiting to take the shot. Shut that down and its all money from there because Dwight can only do so much. Magic needed one more player to step up, but they all relied on the three too much.

It is a double edged sword for sure. What makes (made) them great was their three point shooting - for the 3rd or 4th season in a row they've lead the league in three-point-makes. But the question is, how far does a jump shooting team go in the playoffs? once you take away the three, it's a big hit for that team. They do rely on the three too much, but they wouldn't be as good as they are without that perimeter shooting opening things up (I don't think it's a clear "inside-outside" game as different teams of the past). Howard is good, but he's not that good, more of a finisher, one-on-one player than a facilitator out of the post.

[nightprowler10]

I am sorry, but that statement is so dumb its crazy.
I think what he's saying is that they play with better rhythm. I noticed that a few times too, but I think it's more of a testament to SVG's inability to get his new players to buy into his offensive scheme, i.e; playing through Howard.

[marion706]

everything you say is stupid so i'm not reading that shit
:cheers:

[SCdac]

Howard should go to the Spurs....... :cheers:

[Orlando Magic]

A game being called relatively equal in the total number of fouls for each team does not prove anything in terms of being impartial or not. All it shows is that the calls were close to equal. You're forgetting one important factor... the ACTUAL play. So in other words, and I'm not saying anything about tonight's game, if Team A ACTUALLY fouled Team B 80 times in the act of shooting, and team B only got 10 calls for a total of 20 free throw attempts, and Team B ACTUALLY fouled Team A 20 times while in the act of shooting, with Team A getting 10 calls and getting 20 free throw shots, does that mean the game was called impartially? Of course not. The game was reffed in Team A's favor by a large margin even though they both shot an equal number of free throws.

You're looking at the results in the box score, ignoring the actual game.

[ashbelly]

when the big 3 came together, Otis panicked,gambled and now he's losing:oldlol:

[MayCeltics]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhGeQWOHwHQ&feature=relmfu

The old JJ was back for One Game at least

[MayCeltics]

Refs can't save Atlanta if they play the Bulls.

like they saved the bulls today.

[D12"Magic"]

Howard coming to brooklyn with Deron :pimp:

[J-Futuristic]

Howard is coming to Atlanta to join forces with his child hood friend Josh Smith :pimp:

[ashbelly]

A game being called relatively equal in the total number of fouls for each team does not prove anything in terms of being impartial or not. All it shows is that the calls were close to equal. You're forgetting one important factor... the ACTUAL play. So in other words, and I'm not saying anything about tonight's game, if Team A ACTUALLY fouled Team B 80 times in the act of shooting, and team B only got 10 calls for a total of 20 free throw attempts, and Team B ACTUALLY fouled Team A 20 times while in the act of shooting, with Team A getting 10 calls and getting 20 free throw shots, does that mean the game was called impartially? Of course not. The game was reffed in Team A's favor by a large margin even though they both shot an equal number of free throws.

You're looking at the results in the box score, ignoring the actual game.

Thats why you can't use stats without watching the game and vice versa. If you gonna use the stats make sure you watch the game..

[Showtime]

Monster Game For A Monster Center
And proving why he's not the MVP. He can have monster individual games and his team still loses, because the MVP of the Orlando Magic is the 3 pt shot. That's the most important aspect to their success, not Dwight.

[MayCeltics]

Thats why you can't use stats without watching the game and vice versa. If you gonna use the stats make sure you watch the game..


Defending the officials I wonder why?

[D12"Magic"]

Only 2 starters for the Magic played good, where the hell was Turk and Jason I could not spot them.

[ashbelly]

And proving why he's not the MVP. He can have monster individual games and his team still loses, because the MVP of the Orlando Magic is the 3 pt shot. That's the most important aspect to their success, not Dwight.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I've been trying to figure out who's idea it was to build a team on the strengths of the 3 point shot.. dude is dumb.

[knickscity]

And proving why he's not the MVP. He can have monster individual games and his team still loses, because the MVP of the Orlando Magic is the 3 pt shot. That's the most important aspect to their success, not Dwight.
As ridiculous as this sounds, it's really true.

Coupled in with virtually no Orlando defense, Atlanta got everything they wanted out there.

6-22 from three for Orlando.

Also Dwight 1 block and Jameer's 1 assist contributed as well.

[CelticBaller]

Howard better be smart and come to the Celtics

[dr8ked]

The pistons used to do this all the time.. Apart from perkins, there is no other guy that guards dwight well like Jason maxiel.. We always own them.

[whoartthou]

i dunno why, but even though dwight had a monster performance... it felt so blank.

Like it didnt matter how many rebounds or points he got :confusedshrug:

[KingBeasley08]

I think what he's saying is that they play with better rhythm. I noticed that a few times too, but I think it's more of a testament to SVG's inability to get his new players to buy into his offensive scheme, i.e; playing through Howard.
no that poster is retarded. same one that claimed lebron isnt a top 5 player.

[PowerGlove]

So HYPE right now!!! As soon as you saw Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford attacking the rim and going right at Dwight, I KNEW the game was over.

[jlauber]

How is "not MVP material" equate to "flop"? Do you go to bat for everyone that scores efficiently? Regardless of how the rest of his team fares?

Well, my god, do we blame HOWARD, when he scored 46 points on 70% shooting, and grabbed nearly half of Orlando's 40 rebounds...while his teammates (especially Hedu and JRich) shot 35%?

I am a big Kobe fan, and I felt that he played much better than his 6-24 shooting indicated in game seven of the Finals last year...but he has constantly been ripped for it here ever since. So, if Dwight had gone 6-24 today, and his team would have won, do you think you and other's would be praising him?

Look, his teammates are professionals...not some rejects from a rest home. If they would have just played a normal game today, the Magic would have won that game, and Howard's performance would be getting the adulation that it deserved. Let's put the blame where it really belongs...on the ineptitude of his teammates.

And, BTW, where would the Magic be without him? They are certainly not a stacked team. Take Dwight off of that team, and I honestly believe that they would have been right there with the Cavs.

[nightprowler10]

I'm not blaming Howard for the loss, I just don't get praising his performance when the other team's plan was obviously to let him perform and keep the ball away from the others. And at the same time you're calling out Rose when he scored 39 even though the other team's whole defense was set up to stop him. It's that disparity I found surprising.

[jlauber]

I'm not blaming Howard for the loss, I just don't get praising his performance when the other team's plan was obviously to let him perform and keep the ball away from the others. And at the same time you're calling out Rose when he scored 39 even though the other team's whole defense was set up to stop him. It's that disparity I found surprising.

I don't recall calling out Rose in this topic...other than there seems to be some here who are claiming that he is a better "winner" than Howard. And, he MAY very well have a better career, too. But, at this point, all he has done is have ONE winning season (albeit, a damn good one at 62-20) in his three year career, with two first round exits.

IMHO, at this point in their careers, and based upon what they have accomplished, I just don't see Rose having a case over Dwight as a better player. True, it appears that he is going to win the MVP this season, but there have been many one-time MVP's (and some probably deserved more than the one that they got), so I am not willing to annoint Rose as the next GOAT just yet.

[magnax1]

Well, my god, do we blame HOWARD, when he scored 46 points on 70% shooting, and grabbed nearly half of Orlando's 40 rebounds...while his teammates (especially Hedu and JRich) shot 35%?

I am a big Kobe fan, and I felt that he played much better than his 6-24 shooting indicated in game seven of the Finals last year...but he has constantly been ripped for it here ever since. So, if Dwight had gone 6-24 today, and his team would have won, do you think you and other's would be praising him?

Look, his teammates are professionals...not some rejects from a rest home. If they would have just played a normal game today, the Magic would have won that game, and Howard's performance would be getting the adulation that it deserved. Let's put the blame where it really belongs...on the ineptitude of his teammates.

And, BTW, where would the Magic be without him? They are certainly not a stacked team. Take Dwight off of that team, and I honestly believe that they would have been right there with the Cavs.
Completely agreed, and if his team mates had gotten him the ball in the 2nd half as much as they did in the first, they very well might've won despite his team's extremely shitty play.

[nightprowler10]

I don't recall calling out Rose in this topic...other than there seems to be some here who are claiming that he is a better "winner" than Howard. And, he MAY very well have a better career, too. But, at this point, all he has done is have ONE winning season (albeit, a damn good one at 62-20) in his three year career, with two first round exits.

IMHO, at this point in their careers, and based upon what they have accomplished, I just don't see Rose having a case over Dwight as a better player. True, it appears that he is going to win the MVP this season, but there have been many one-time MVP's (and some probably deserved more than the one that they got), so I am not willing to annoint Rose as the next GOAT just yet.
Boy, you really do love to talk in hyperbole don't you!

Fair enough that you weren't calling out Rose the way I thought you were. I guess I just don't see the point of praising empty stats, but then again, we haven't always seen eye to eye when it comes to big men putting up empty stats. ;-)

[CelticBaller]

Boy, you really do love to talk in hyperbole don't you!

Fair enough that you weren't calling out Rose the way I thought you were. I guess I just don't see the point of praising empty stats, but then again, we haven't always seen eye to eye when it comes to big men putting up empty stats. ;-)
empty stats? did you watch the fvcking game? hell do you even know whats empty stats? :hammerhead:

[magnax1]

Boy, you really do love to talk in hyperbole don't you!

Fair enough that you weren't calling out Rose the way I thought you were. I guess I just don't see the point of praising empty stats, but then again, we haven't always seen eye to eye when it comes to big men putting up empty stats. ;-)
Did you really just say Dwight put up empty stats?

[jlauber]

Boy, you really do love to talk in hyperbole don't you!

Fair enough that you weren't calling out Rose the way I thought you were. I guess I just don't see the point of praising empty stats, but then again, we haven't always seen eye to eye when it comes to big men putting up empty stats. ;-)

Well, to be honest, I have witnessed very few games in my lifetime where a player put up a 46-19 game, and I came away thinking that those stats were "empty." In fact, I can't think of any off-hand. Basketball is a TEAM game, and as such, there are probably many more "worthy" players getting ripped when a TEAM loses, than the player that just hung a 46 point game, on 16-23 shooting, with 19 of his team's 40 rebounds (in a 46 minute performance BTW.)

I am not sure how many posters here were fortunate enough to have watched the Bulls-Celtics playoff game back in 1986, in which MJ almost single-handedly led his 30-52 Bulls team to a shocking upset of the 67-15 Celtics, with his memorable 63 point game (in double OT.) Yes, his TEAM lost that game, but I seriously doubt very few that witnessed that game, came away thinking that Jordan's performance was empty.

And I grew up in the middle of the Russell-Wilt rivalry. And it has just amazed me how often I have read someone claiming that Chamberlain put up so many "empty stat" games in his career. Here again, I WATCHED many of their H2H games, and while Russell's Celtics usually won the games, I never ONCE came away believing that Wilt's 30-30 games, which were routine in their rivalry, were "empty." Maybe "futile" perhaps, but never "empty." And, yes, Wilt had some poor games, at least by his standards (a 20-20 game was a subpar game for Chamberlain) against Russell, but even then he was seldom outplayed. Now, if you want to argue that Russell elevated the play of his teammates more often that Wilt did his, I would agree. But, in the vast majority of their rivalry, he also not only had better teammates, he had more of them.

Back to the OP...I just don't know what more Howard could have done today (well, I guess he could have scored 57 points, which then would have been enough to win.) And once again, I don't think any reasonable observer would claim that Howard is playing with even a good supporting cast, either. I have maintained that had he had a quality PG (and not a SG playing as a PG), along with some kind of quality PF, that his TEAM would then be much more formidable. In any case, I just don't believe that he has played with anything more than an average roster in his career.

[magnax1]

Well, to be honest, I have witnessed very few games in my lifetime where a player put up a 46-19 game, and I came away thinking that those stats were "empty." In fact, I can't think of any off-hand. Basketball is a TEAM game, and as such, there are probably many more "worthy" players getting ripped when a TEAM loses, than the player that just hung a 46 point game, on 16-23 shooting, with 19 of his team's 40 rebounds (in a 46 minute performance BTW.)

I am not sure how many posters here were fortunate enough to have watched the Bulls-Celtics playoff game back in 1986, in which MJ almost single-handedly led his 30-52 Bulls team to a shocking upset of the 67-15 Celtics, with his memorable 63 point game (in double OT.) Yes, his TEAM lost that game, but I seriously doubt very few that witnessed that game, came away thinking that Jordan's performance was empty.

And I grew up in the middle of the Russell-Wilt rivalry. And it has just amazed me how often I have read someone claiming that Chamberlain put up so many "empty stat" games in his career. Here again, I WATCHED many of their H2H games, and while Russell's Celtics usually won the games, I never ONCE came away believing that Wilt's 30-30 games, which were routine in their rivalry, were "empty." Maybe "futile" perhaps, but never "empty." And, yes, Wilt had some poor games, at least by his standards (a 20-20 game was a subpar game for Chamberlain) against Russell, but even then he was seldom outplayed. Now, if you want to argue that Russell elevated the play of his teammates more often that Wilt did his, I would agree. But, in the vast majority of their rivalry, he also not only had better teammates, he had more of them.

Back to the OP...I just don't know what more Howard could have done today (well, I guess he could have scored 57 points, which then would have been enough to win.) And once again, I don't think any reasonable observer would claim that Howard is playing with even a good supporting cast, either. I have maintained that had he had a quality PG (and not a SG playing as a PG), along with some kind of quality PF, that his TEAM would then be much more formidable. In any case, I just don't believe that he has played with anything more than an average roster in his career.
Well when Hedo was averaging 20 ppg I would call his team above average, but his teams were never as talented as LA, Bostons, Miami or quite a few teams out West over they years.
And even if he had a team that was pretty similar in overall talent, but was capable of passing and moving the ball around to each other capably, they'd be so much better. Jameer is a big part of that problem though.

[jlauber]

Boy, you really do love to talk in hyperbole don't you!

Fair enough that you weren't calling out Rose the way I thought you were. I guess I just don't see the point of praising empty stats, but then again, we haven't always seen eye to eye when it comes to big men putting up empty stats. ;-)

How about this then...

tell me who you HONESTLY believe was the BEST player on the floor in this game.

[bluechox2]

dwight was a beast, but what the **** was the rest of the team doing?

[nightprowler10]

At the people freaking out over the term 'empty stats', it isn't meant as an outright insult to Dwight. I don't use it liberally the way your average ISHer uses it. Yes I did watch the game, every minute of it, and for most of the game I felt like no matter what Howard did, it simply didn't matter as that was exactly what Atlanta wanted. Let Howard run wild with relatively little D thrown at him, and focus on shutting down the rest of his team. This is exactly what the Bulls did to him three meetings ago when he put up 40 points. Not once did I feel like we would lose the game. Dwight could have all the points and rebounds he wanted but Thibs and the Bulls walked away with the victory. This is exactly what happened tonight. Had the Hawks, or the Bulls that one night, actually tried setting up their defense around him, and he still put up those numbers, then I'd be drooling over his stats as well, but that was simply not the case. To me, that is the definition of empty stats, stats that really didn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

To give you an alternate example, in our last meeting with Dwight, we threw everything we had at him, but he still got his and kept threatening to take over the game and run away with the W. His stats weren't as impressive as the time before, but as a Bulls fan my heart skipped a beat every time he banged down low. Tonight was nothing like that. Despite his stats, he was never a threat. I hope that clarifies my position.

Could he have done more? Probably not, as he's unfortunate enough to have a team that doesn't buy into this offensive scheme, neither has he developed a passing game to get the offense going himself.

[Pointguard]

I don't know if its fair to be taking shots at Jameer who is the closer on the team. Everytime I watch them, its his show in the 4th quarter. I do admit to only seeing like 5 of their games, but Jameer functions in a way the coach aparently loves. Even when they were in the finals, a time in which I believe Jameer should not have been playing, Gundy stuck with him.

[Pointguard]

The other weird thing about the team is the persona they take when DH isn't there. They play more confidently and aggressively. It's not DH's fault but some dysfunction with the other players (not Jameer tho).

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't know if its fair to be taking shots at Jameer who is the closer on the team. Everytime I watch them, its his show in the 4th quarter. I do admit to only seeing like 5 of their games, but Jameer functions in a way the coach aparently loves. Even when they were in the finals, a time in which I believe Jameer should not have been playing, Gundy stuck with him.

I really just don't like Jameer's game. He can shoot, and he's a decent passer at times, but he's an absolute liability defensively and he has a horrendous basketball IQ and his size prevents him from having good court vision. I mean, he had easily his best season in 2009 yet he went down with an injury and they got to the finals without him. I don't think he's a big impact player at all and hurts the team quite a bit, though he did really come to play in the second half tonight after an embarrassing first half, I'll give him that and he seems pretty clutch in general.

[nightprowler10]

The other weird thing about the team is the persona they take when DH isn't there. They play more confidently and aggressively. It's not DH's fault but some dysfunction with the other players (not Jameer tho).
It's like I said in another thread, I just don't think the newer players have bought into SVG's offensive schemes to run the ball through DH. It's weird alright.

[coin24]

Just watching the replay now, magic look god awful, it's midway through the 3rd:facepalm

Im first to admit I thought magic would sweep this series. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the exact opposite happened.

Enjoy Howard next season magic fans because I'm pretty sure he is as good as gone after that. This team is pathetic, poor coach and they're not in any position to upgrade there roster...

[alenleomessi]

people forget how good JJ can be

[bdreason]

Anyone who thinks the Magic have a good squad are fooling themselves. Even the team Dwight carried to the NBA Finals back in 2009 had no business being there.


Give Dwight CP3 or Dwill and he's in the NBA Finals every year.

[bdreason]

I really just don't like Jameer's game. He can shoot, and he's a decent passer at times, but he's an absolute liability defensively and he has a horrendous basketball IQ and his size prevents him from having good court vision. I mean, he had easily his best season in 2009 yet he went down with an injury and they got to the finals without him. I don't think he's a big impact player at all and hurts the team quite a bit, though he did really come to play in the second half tonight after an embarrassing first half, I'll give him that and he seems pretty clutch in general.


Jameer isn't a starting PG on a championship team. He should be coming off the bench for a legit team. One thing I do like about Jameer is he will take and hit big shots... but he shouldn't be running a title contender.

[BMore]

I really do believe Dwight Howard is MVP, and this is coming from a lifelong Bulls fan. Hell, I knew of Derrick Rose when he was playing AAU ball on meanstreets express. I just think Dwight Howard brings more to the table for the Magic at this point in his career than Rose for the Bulls. The Bulls success is just more than the growth of Derrick Rose as a PG. Team Defense, Deng has been underappreciated this year for his efforts, Thibs. I know Derrick Rose is important for my Bulls success, but you take Dwight Howard off the Magic and they are AWFUL. I can't say the same for my Bulls. 23 PPG 14 RPG 1.5 SPG 2.5BPG on near 60% from the field for the season. WE ARE NOT WORTHY :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mike Tyson]

LOL what a fluke. Next game he will put up only 15 and 12 and still lose

[nathanjizzle]

dwight had 14 points in the 2nd half? most of his turnovers out of 8 in the second half? and having to play soft on defense because of fouls? MVP MVP MVP:applause: :bowdown:

[leopoldstotch]

empty stats

[Pointguard]

I really just don't like Jameer's game. He can shoot, and he's a decent passer at times, but he's an absolute liability defensively and he has a horrendous basketball IQ and his size prevents him from having good court vision. I mean, he had easily his best season in 2009 yet he went down with an injury and they got to the finals without him. I don't think he's a big impact player at all and hurts the team quite a bit, though he did really come to play in the second half tonight after an embarrassing first half, I'll give him that and he seems pretty clutch in general.

True, that about sums it up. I thought Rafer Alston ran a more balanced team attack in 2009 and was a better and smarter defender. Jameer could hit an important jumpshot that year.

[Pointguard]

It's like I said in another thread, I just don't think the newer players have bought into SVG's offensive schemes to run the ball through DH. It's weird alright.

Yeah, they seem to get bored and almost indifferent to the game if DH gets two touches in a row.

[jlauber]

At the people freaking out over the term 'empty stats', it isn't meant as an outright insult to Dwight. I don't use it liberally the way your average ISHer uses it. Yes I did watch the game, every minute of it, and for most of the game I felt like no matter what Howard did, it simply didn't matter as that was exactly what Atlanta wanted. Let Howard run wild with relatively little D thrown at him, and focus on shutting down the rest of his team. This is exactly what the Bulls did to him three meetings ago when he put up 40 points. Not once did I feel like we would lose the game. Dwight could have all the points and rebounds he wanted but Thibs and the Bulls walked away with the victory. This is exactly what happened tonight. Had the Hawks, or the Bulls that one night, actually tried setting up their defense around him, and he still put up those numbers, then I'd be drooling over his stats as well, but that was simply not the case. To me, that is the definition of empty stats, stats that really didn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

To give you an alternate example, in our last meeting with Dwight, we threw everything we had at him, but he still got his and kept threatening to take over the game and run away with the W. His stats weren't as impressive as the time before, but as a Bulls fan my heart skipped a beat every time he banged down low. Tonight was nothing like that. Despite his stats, he was never a threat. I hope that clarifies my position.

Could he have done more? Probably not, as he's unfortunate enough to have a team that doesn't buy into this offensive scheme, neither has he developed a passing game to get the offense going himself.

Good post. I would just add to the "empty stats" comment, though. I understand that when a TEAM is just not good enough, that when one of their players goes off for a big game, and they still lose, that someone might call the numbers "empty." I used the term in a previous post, but in any case, I prefer the word "futile."

I have already mentioned Chamberlain, who played with pathetic rosters for nearly half of his career (and some horrible coaches.) Some here have labeled his 62-63 season as "stats-padding" because his team went 31-49. IMHO, that season was actually one of his best. That team lost 35 games by single digits, and were only involved in a total of eight 20+ point differential games. Clearly, that was one of the worst rosters ever assembled (16 different players), and it was born out before the start of the very next season, when their new coach, Alex Hannum, had those players, sans Wilt, play against rookies and non-drafted free agents...and they lost. But, in that 62-63 season, Wilt averaged 47.6 mpg, 44.8 ppg, 24.6 rpg, and shot .528. Hell, for those that use advanced stats, he even LED the NBA in WIN SHARES...as well as setting a single season record PER of 31.8. And, he even averaged 3.4 apg...with a roster that collectively shot .412 without his .528. And in his nine games against Russell and his EIGHT other HOFers (Wilt had ZERO HOF teammates on his team BTW), Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 38-14 (as well as outrebounding him.) Now, you tell me what more Wilt could have done? The only other option I could have seen for Wilt, was to pull a Lebron and just "quit."

Which brings me to my next point. I will be the first to agree that Lebron "quit" on the Cavs in that last game of the Celtic series. But, while it was probably not excusable, I could understand. He had put up a couple of monster games in that series, and they were able to win them...but he realized that that was their only chance. Player-for-player the Celtics were a better team. If Lebron merely played a good game, it would not have been enough. And the reality is/was, a great player can generally elevate his game for one or two big games, but it is very difficult to accomplish in a seven game series...especially without any help.

And there have been others who basically folded the tent. Kobe "quit" on his team in a game seven against Phoenix a few years ago. Hell, even the great Bill Russell basically gave up in the clinching game five loss against Wilt and his '67 Sixers in the ECF's. He put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting, all while being CRUSHED by Chamberlain in every facet of the game.

But, using those examples, Lebron, Kobe, and Russell "quit." They played poorly, and their team's lost those games. But, Howard's performance against the Hawks last night was not one of a "quitter." He played brilliantly all game long, even when he was in foul trouble. So, I would NEVER call a performance like that as one of "empty" stats (much like MJ's 63 point game against the HUGE favorite Celtics in a loss.) I would merely use the term, "futile." And a player like Howard (or MJ, or Wilt) should be applauded for their efforts. At least they did not "quit", despite the inevitable.

[coin24]

Yeah, they seem to get bored and almost indifferent to the game if DH gets two touches in a row.

Have to agree with this. When dwight starts his slow motion 20 sec post move lol, the rest of the team just stand around kind of bored/disinterested...

I know hes a great defender and an MVP candidate, but it seems the magic only win when they hit a barrage of 3's when there chuckers are on target:lol

[Pointguard]

Team Defense, Deng has been underappreciated this year for his efforts, Thibs. I know Derrick Rose is important for my Bulls success, but you take Dwight Howard off the Magic and they are AWFUL. I can't say the same for my Bulls. 23 PPG 14 RPG 1.5 SPG 2.5BPG on near 60% from the field for the season. WE ARE NOT WORTHY :bowdown: :bowdown:
If Rose wasn't in that last game against Orlando, which didn't have DH, Orlando crushes the Bulls by 20+. You really think Deng could carry the team thru injuries and being the only offensive weapon???

[Pointguard]

Which brings me to my next point. I will be the first to agree that Lebron "quit" on the Cavs in that last game of the Celtic series. But, while it was probably not excusable, I could understand. He had put up a couple of monster games in that series, and they were able to win them...but he realized that that was their only chance. Player-for-player the Celtics were a better team. If Lebron merely played a good game, it would not have been enough. And the reality is/was, a great player can generally elevate his game for one or two big games, but it is very difficult to accomplish in a seven game series...especially without any help.

And there have been others who basically folded the tent. Kobe "quit" on his team in a game seven against Phoenix a few years ago. Hell, even the great Bill Russell basically gave up in the clinching game five loss against Wilt and his '67 Sixers in the ECF's. He put up a FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting, all while being CRUSHED by Chamberlain in every facet of the game.

But, using those examples, Lebron, Kobe, and Russell "quit." They played poorly, and their team's lost those games. But, Howard's performance against the Hawks last night was not one of a "quitter." He played brilliantly all game long, even when he was in foul trouble. So, I would NEVER call a performance like that as one of "empty" stats (much like MJ's 63 point game against the HUGE favorite Celtics in a loss.) I would merely use the term, "futile." And a player like Howard (or MJ, or Wilt) should be applauded for their efforts. At least they did not "quit", despite the inevitable.
Orlando wasn't out of that game until like 2 minutes to go. So the stats couldn't be empty. If one of those threes go in the tide possibly could have turned. When they go to Atlanta they are going to double DH hard, figuring that pressure and a foreign court will mess up the shooters touch. As with Wilt, no man is an island. When Wilt was playing his two points was as good as anybody else's shot. These days, Jameer's or J Rich's three can mean more than DH's two.

In today's game, with several shooters hitting 3's at 40% teams now don't stress 2 pointers at the rare 60% as much. Particurally if that team has streaky hot shooters. A good defensive team might strategize to let the two pointers flourish and keep the perimeter players from getting involved. Next game I would double DH for the first three quarters and then go one on one the last quarter. This would demoralize the shooters in a different way - even mess with their head the next game. Orlando isn't pyschologically healthy enough to adapt on the spot.

Big game for DH... but Atlanta seemed braced for his impact and had the counter punch ready and more effective. DH gave it all he had and he couldn't really do much more.

[KingBeasley08]

Dwight looked like Prime Shaq yesterday :bowdown:
the rest of his team looked like my lil bros rec team :lol

If Dwight averages 25/13 in his career down the road and goes to LA, I might kill someone

[Ikill]

is Dwight Howard a black hole?????????????

[PP34Deuce]

dwight needs to develop the ability to pass out the double team. Shaq wasable to. But this magic team is going nowhere...

Gortat was a young Center whos shown improvement offensively as well as defensively. They had an advantage when they played both guys.

Hes a much better post player(Dwight) but Richardson,Arenas,Richardson are just shot... feels like their roster consists of poor starters on other teams.

[Hotlantadude81]

Dwight looked like Prime Shaq yesterday :bowdown:
the rest of his team looked like my lil bros rec team :lol

If Dwight averages 25/13 in his career down the road and goes to LA, I might kill someone

Prime Shaq is a very good passer. People forget that.

[Hotlantadude81]

people forget how good JJ can be

JJ isn't very good.

18PPG on 42% shooting 29% in 3's.

Not so good.

[King Lebron LBJ]

Dwight is so gone next summer

[ChandlerParsons]

Wow, I can finally post after like 1 month of waiting for some reason. Oh well.
Howard is going to the Clippers with Blake Griff, Eric Gordon, and some people I can't remember. Oh , Chris Paul is going there too. LOL:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Wordup]

Magic are such an ugly team to watch. Hawks are also awful to watch. It's like watching high school basketball. Hilarious.

[Out_In_Utah]

So could somebody tell me why several posters said I was ridiculous for saying that this series could go either direction? I suggested that either team has a chance, and several people jumped on me saying that the Hawks had no chance.

[HylianNightmare]

gundy should run more plays for dwight like this all the time