What if KAJ did play in 1980 NBA Finals Game6?

[Odinn]

We all know 1980 Finals Game6 one of the best-single performances of all time by Magic.

But what if Kareem wasn't injured?

His playoffs averages;
31.9 points - 12.1 rebounds - 3.1 asissts - 1.1 steals - 3.9 blocks - 3.7 turnovers - 57.2% fg - 79.0% ft

His finals averages;
33.4 points - 13.6 rebounds - 3.2 asissts - 0.6 steals - 4.6 blocks - 4.2 turnovers - 54.9% fg - 80.8% ft

If he played in title-clinching game, can we consider his playoff run the top3 or top5 playoff run?

[jlauber]

Kareem certainly had an argument for Finals MVP, even missing that game six. He had a 40 point game five, scoring his last 14 points on a sprained ankle, in a 108-105 win, too.

Having said, though, Magic showed just what kind of a player he could be in that game six. 42 points on 14-23 shooting, and 14-14 from the line, with seven assists...and a game high 15 rebounds (the next best only had 10.)

I have long maintained that Magic could have been close to a 30 ppg scorer in his career had he focused solely on scoring. My god, he had 18 ppg seasons on .561 and .565 shooting early in his career.

But Magic's real value was that he elevated the play of his teammates. In addition, he dictated pace of play, too. He was a great rebounder for a guard, and that coupled with his explosiveness, led to many "coast-to-coast" baskets, as well as a TON of easy transition baskets for teammates.

One need only look at what the Lakers were before Magic arrived, ...even with Kareem playing with as talented rosters as there were in the league...they were early round cannon-fodder. Then, even after Kareem retired, Magic led them to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record of the decade. And a year later, he carried them to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals appearance. And, after Magic retired, the Lakers immediately fell to 43-39 and 39-43 records.

Clearly, it was Magic who had the greatest impact on the Laker dynasty of the 80's.

[EllEffEll]

Magic is the all-time greatest Laker IMHO, and he was the stick that stirred the Laker drink from the time he got here. I went to several games that year, from the 3rd preseason game to games 1 & 2 of the wcf and the finals. That said, when things got really dicey and the Lakers needed a bucket in the Showtime era, Magic was going to bring the ball up and it was going into KAJ in the post.

Honestly, I think one could make a case for either and not be 'wrong'.

What made them so dangerous is that they could play up-tempo/transition/fast break basketball and go on a 20-2 run in the blink of an eye, or slowly work you in the half court game. Name your poison, the Showtime Lakers could find a way to administer a lethal dose.

I really miss 'Showtime' :rockon:

[jlauber]

Magic is the all-time greatest Laker IMHO, and he was the stick that stirred the Laker drink from the time he got here. I went to several games that year, from the 3rd preseason game to games 1 & 2 of the wcf and the finals. That said, when things got really dicey and the Lakers needed a bucket in the Showtime era, Magic was going to bring the ball up and it was going into KAJ in the post.

Honestly, I think one could make a case for either and not be 'wrong'.

What made them so dangerous is that they could play up-tempo/transition/fast break basketball and go on a 20-2 run in the blink of an eye, or slowly work you in the half court game. Name your poison, the Showtime Lakers could find a way to administer a lethal dose.

I really miss 'Showtime' :rockon:

Great post. No matter what...Magic and Kareem are two of the top-5 greatest to have ever played in the NBA.

[FKAri]

KAJ > Magic

[Odinn]

I didn't want to start a Magic-Kareem topic.

If he did won finals mvp, what should his playoff run be in the ranking?

[brownmamba00]

He shoulda won the FMVP in 1980 imo

[Psileas]

We all know 1980 Finals Game6 one of the best-single performances of all time by Magic.

But what if Kareem wasn't injured?

His playoffs averages;
31.9 points - 12.1 rebounds - 3.1 asissts - 1.1 steals - 3.9 blocks - 3.7 turnovers - 57.2% fg - 79.0% ft

His finals averages;
33.4 points - 13.6 rebounds - 3.2 asissts - 0.6 steals - 4.6 blocks - 4.2 turnovers - 54.9% fg - 80.8% ft

If he played in title-clinching game, can we consider his playoff run the top3 or top5 playoff run?

It already is an all-time great playoff run. It's just overlooked because of Kareem not winning the Finals' MVP-then again he was the Lakers' MVP during the playoffs in general (and of course the regular season, as well). The Finals voting was marginal: 4-3 in favor of Magic. If Kareem played and the Lakers win (more than likely, I'd say...), he'd probably get the one additional vote, even if Magic still had an all-time great game and Kareem didn't play up to his standards - remember, though, he was injured, so this effort would be greatly appreciated by everyone, despite the fact that his efforts in Game 5 after getting injured aren't nearly as much. Imagine a guard doing so: Everybody knows about Isiah's game in 1988, and it's not as if he scored all his 25 points in the 3rd qtr after he got injured. Kareem got injured in the 3rd quarter and then dominated the whole 4th quarter while being so. Which is why I think this was probably the most underrated Finals game performance by any GOAT candidate ever.

[jlauber]

It already is an all-time great playoff run. It's just overlooked because of Kareem not winning the Finals' MVP-then again he was the Lakers' MVP during the playoffs in general (and of course the regular season, as well). The Finals voting was marginal: 4-3 in favor of Magic. If Kareem played and the Lakers win (more than likely, I'd say...), he'd probably get the one additional vote, even if Magic still had an all-time great game and Kareem didn't play up to his standards - remember, though, he was injured, so this effort would be greatly appreciated by everyone, despite the fact that his efforts in Game 5 after getting injured aren't nearly as much. Imagine a guard doing so: Everybody knows about Isiah's game in 1988, and it's not as if he scored all his 25 points in the 3rd qtr after he got injured. Kareem got injured in the 3rd quarter and then dominated the whole 4th quarter while being so. Which is why I think this was probably the most underrated Finals game performance by any GOAT candidate ever.

I would have had no problem with Kareem winning the Finals MVP in '80 (just as I would have had no problem with Magic winning it in '85, either.) It always amazed me that Willis Reed won the '70 Finals MVP, with basically missing one-half of one game, three-fourths of another, and a full game. Furthermore, in one of those games, in game five, his team was down by 10 points when he went out with his injury...and they came back to win the game without him (albeit with a lot of help from the officials.) And, his "legendary" game seven performance was a 4 pt., 3 reb game, on 40% shooting, while his counter-part, Wilt, had a 21-24 game, on 10-16 shooting...and he was on a knee that had had major surgery just four months before. And, what about Walt Frazier's game seven? 36 points, 19 assists, and he completely outplayed Jerry West in that game. So, why the double-standard?

Having said, though, Magic had a BRILLIANT Finals in '80. He averaged 21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, shot .573 from the field, and .875 from the line. AND, his game six, on the road, and withOUT Kareem, was one for the ages.

As for Kareem's injury...yes, he was spectacular in the 4th quarter of that fifth game, despite it being badly swollen. He deserves the credit for playing exceptionally well under the circumstances. BUT, it has always bothered me that he got a free pass for not playing in that sixth game from the media. Granted, LA won the game, so his not playing did not affect the outcome. But, the DOUBLE STANDARD regarding Wilt continued. I already mentioned Reed's "heroic" game seven...while most everyone ripped Wilt for being a "choker", a "loser", and a "failure" after that game. It is almost NEVER brought up, but when Chamberlain sustained his knee injury earlier in the year, virtually ALL medical opinion claimed his season was done, and that he would be out a year...and that was the OPTOMISTIC opinion. There were some concerned that his career might be over, mainly because Wilt was 34, 7-1, and nearly 300 lbs. And not only did Wilt play, he had the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA HISTORY (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the floor.)

Furthermore, Wilt was ripped for his poor play in game six of the '68 ECF's, when he shot 6-21 from the floor, and 8-23 from the line. True, it was perhaps the worst performance of his post-season career (although he still grabbed 27 rebounds), but here again, virtually NO ONE (except Bill Russell) mentioned the fact that he was playing with a bad toe, arthritis in one knee, and a hamstring injury in the other...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three to the end of the series. For the series, he averaged 22.1 ppg, and 25.1 rpg.

Nor does anyone bring up Wilt's play in the clinching game five win of the '72 Finals, either. He played that game with BOTH wrists heavily wrapped. One was severely sprained, and the other was FRACTURED. Here again, Kareem missed chunks of TWO separate seasons with a broken wrist. And not only did Wilt play in that game five, ...instead of putting up an "inspirational" 4-3 game, ala Reed,...he DOMINATED the game. He scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 10 blocks, and 29 rebounds (and the ENTIRE Knick team only had 39 BTW.) Granted, Wilt DID win the Finals MVP, and deservedly so (my god, West was simply AWFUL in the entire post-season)...but very few "historians" bring up these facts about his career.

[Stringer Bell]

I would have had no problem with Kareem winning the Finals MVP in '80 (just as I would have had no problem with Magic winning it in '85, either.) It always amazed me that Willis Reed won the '70 Finals MVP, with basically missing one-half of one game, three-fourths of another, and a full game. Furthermore, in one of those games, in game five, his team was down by 10 points when he went out with his injury...and they came back to win the game without him (albeit with a lot of help from the officials.) And, his "legendary" game seven performance was a 4 pt., 3 reb game, on 40% shooting, while his counter-part, Wilt, had a 21-24 game, on 10-16 shooting...and he was on a knee that had had major surgery just four months before. And, what about Walt Frazier's game seven? 36 points, 19 assists, and he completely outplayed Jerry West in that game. So, why the double-standard?

Having said, though, Magic had a BRILLIANT Finals in '80. He averaged 21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, shot .573 from the field, and .875 from the line. AND, his game six, on the road, and withOUT Kareem, was one for the ages.

As for Kareem's injury...yes, he was spectacular in the 4th quarter of that fifth game, despite it being badly swollen. He deserves the credit for playing exceptionally well under the circumstances. BUT, it has always bothered me that he got a free pass for not playing in that sixth game from the media. Granted, LA won the game, so his not playing did not affect the outcome. But, the DOUBLE STANDARD regarding Wilt continued. I already mentioned Reed's "heroic" game seven...while most everyone ripped Wilt for being a "choker", a "loser", and a "failure" after that game. It is almost NEVER brought up, but when Chamberlain sustained his knee injury earlier in the year, virtually ALL medical opinion claimed his season was done, and that he would be out a year...and that was the OPTOMISTIC opinion. There were some concerned that his career might be over, mainly because Wilt was 34, 7-1, and nearly 300 lbs. And not only did Wilt play, he had the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA HISTORY (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the floor.)

Furthermore, Wilt was ripped for his poor play in game six of the '68 ECF's, when he shot 6-21 from the floor, and 8-23 from the line. True, it was perhaps the worst performance of his post-season career (although he still grabbed 27 rebounds), but here again, virtually NO ONE (except Bill Russell) mentioned the fact that he was playing with a bad toe, arthritis in one knee, and a hamstring injury in the other...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three to the end of the series. For the series, he averaged 22.1 ppg, and 25.1 rpg.

Nor does anyone bring up Wilt's play in the clinching game five win of the '72 Finals, either. He played that game with BOTH wrists heavily wrapped. One was severely sprained, and the other was FRACTURED. Here again, Kareem missed chunks of TWO separate seasons with a broken wrist. And not only did Wilt play in that game five, ...instead of putting up an "inspirational" 4-3 game, ala Reed,...he DOMINATED the game. He scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 10 blocks, and 29 rebounds (and the ENTIRE Knick team only had 39 BTW.) Granted, Wilt DID win the Finals MVP, and deservedly so (my god, West was simply AWFUL in the entire post-season)...but very few "historians" bring up these facts about his career.

Kareem > Wilt

[Lebron23]

Finals MVP

[Ne 1]

Kareem actually was the real 1980 Finals MVP. The final tally had Kareem as the MVP, but CBS persuaded enough voters to change their ballots in favor of Magic because they didn't want to present the award to an absent Kareem.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem still won the FMVP--and then got screwed out of it. One panelist changed his vote because CBS did not want to present the award to a player who was not even at the game. This is perhaps the best example of FMVP being the most overrated award.

[Psileas]

Regular season MVP > Finals MVP. Just the fact that only 11 people vote for the F.MVP is a recognition of this.

Does any site even have any info on Finals MVP voting?