Where do you rank Artis Gilmore amongst all time Centers?

[Toizumi]

Among the all time great bigs he is not often mentioned..

For his career (ABA and NBA) he averaged:
18.8 PPG
12.3 RPG
2.4 BPG
.582 FG
3.1 TOPG

Won an ABA Championship and a ABA MVP award.
Made 6 NBA all star games and 5 ABA all star games.

So this is one for the old heads on ISH, or guys that read up on oldschool ball. How good was this man? I've read about him in articles in magazines and books, but I easily forget about him everyime :confusedshrug: Where do you rank him and who can you compare his game too?

[G.O.A.T]

His legacy varies, overall I believe he is underrated historically and not just because he was denied entry to the hall of fame all this time.

At over 7'2" and with excellent strength and leaping ability Gilmore was a near prototype defensive center for his or any era.

Gilmore was the player who first legitimized the ABA. He came to the league in 1971 along with Julius Erving in the ABA's most pivotal off-season ever.

In that first season, 71-72, Gilmore won rookie of the year and his team, the Kentucky Colonels won an ABA record 68 games. However they were upset in the playoffs for the first of several times in Gilmore's career.

Erving supplanted Gilmore as the ABA's best player shortly after that season, but Artis remained the league's first team and all-defensive center for the next four seasons. In 1975 the Colonels won their only ABA title, two years later, Gilmore was the first pick in the dispersal draft after the ABA/NBA merger.

Artis went to the Bulls, who were coming off a great run in the mid-70's, however their core of players was now past their prime.


The NBA exposed a number of Gilmore's limitations:

1) He was only once an all-NBA center (2nd team) in the NBA whereas he was consistently the top center in the ABA

2) Gilmore was usually a second or two slow with his reactions and spent too much time in foul trouble and playing defensive basketball trying to avoid foul trouble.

3) Gilmore, despite his numerous talents, was not a motivator or leader and his teams, which rarely made the playoffs never got very far when they did.


Defensively he was always solid; a good shot blocker, but most an intimidating presence. His teams got better defensively when he showed up. To me, from the footage I've seen, he was a spectacular on-ball defender.

Offensively he understood his limitations and was consistently a 15-22 ppg scorer at one of the leagues most efficient clips. (typically around or over 60%) However he was never a good passer, even out of the double team, and never developed any go-to post moves or semblance of a jump shot or offensive game outside eight feet.

To find a more modern comparison, he was Dikembe Mutombo with more athleticism and a better jump hook, but his timing as a shot blocker is not where Dike's was.

I rank him somewhere near the end of my third tier, players who could be a critical piece of a Championship team in the right scenario, in a tier with Mutombo, Mourning, Mel Daniels, Robert Parish, Neil Johnston and the like.

[Toizumi]

Thanks GOAT.

Just looking at the stats and judging by what I've read about Gilmore being a great defender I didnt really understand why he is never ranked so high.
His NBA career wasnt as impressive as his ABA career of course.. but still.
Winning a championship (in the ABA) and an (ABA) MVP too is impressive.
Offensively, his stats stand out.. his percentages are great. Thanks for pointing out his weaknesses on offense though. can't find much Gilmore footage online.

[KevinNYC]

I think Moses Malone is very underrated on this board.

In the Duncan/Bird thread someone said Duncan was considerably better than Malone.

Other folks have Hakeem waaaaaaaay ahead of Malone when Malone won three MVPS and Hakeem two. EDIT: Hakeem won one.

I think you can have Hakeem and Duncan above Moses, but they are a lot closer than folks think.

I think this is due to
A. Not enough folks saw prime Malone on this board.
B. Malone's style of play. Any Hakeem highlight reel is going to look better than Moses, but there's no points for style in the NBA. So the question is what did each bring every year.
C. There's no way to measure effort. Moses effectiveness was due to he never gave up and you had to keep trying and trying to stop him. He went after EVERY rebound.

I think Hakeem's peak might be higher, but Moses peak was longer.

So as someone who has thought a lot about this, where do you see Moses among centers and among all players.

[G.O.A.T]

I think Moses Malone is very underrated on this board.

In the Duncan/Bird thread someone said Duncan was considerably better than Malone.

Other folks have Hakeem waaaaaaaay ahead of Malone when Malone won three MVPS and Hakeem two.

I think you can have Hakeem and Duncan above Moses, but they are a lot closer than folks think.

I think this is due to
A. Not enough folks saw prime Malone on this board.
B. Malone's style of play. Any Hakeem highlight reel is going to look better than Moses, but there's no points for style in the NBA. So the question is what did each bring every year.
C. There's no way to measure effort. Moses effectiveness was due to he never gave up and you had to keep trying and trying to stop him. He went after EVERY rebound.

I think Hakeem's peak might be higher, but Moses peak was longer.

So as someone who has thought a lot about this, where do you see Moses among centers and among all players.

Hakeem actually only won one MVP.

Moses has always been an underrated player. His career got off to a strange start when he passed on the NCAA to begin his pro career in the ABA in 1975. At 19 years old, Malone was already a force for the Utah Starz in his rookie season, but the team only lasted one season before folding. Malone spent his second season sharing the frontcourt with Maurice Lucas and Marvin Barnes for the Spirits of St. Louis. That was the ABA's finals season.

The Spirits too folded and Moses was put into the dispersal draft where he was selected by Portland. The Blazers, already possessing Bill Walton and having added Lucas in the dispersal draft were forced to trade Malone before he ever played a game for financial reasons. The sent him to the Braves (Clippers) for a first round draft pick, the Braves traded him a week later to the Rockets for two first round picks.

With Houston, Moses career took off. After a few seasons of development, a 23 year old Moses, playing his fifth season of professional basketball in 1978-79 was the leagues best player. He averaged 25 & 18 shooting 54% and won the first of his three MVP's.

He continued to be right there with Kareem as the leagues best center over the next few years for the Rockets and would win another MVP in 1982 when he averaged a career high 31 points and led the league with 15 rebounds per game.

Now Moses, while dominating individually, especially on the glass, experienced limited team success. He propelled Houston on a surprise run to the Finals in 1981, eventually losing to the Celtics, but otherwise the Rockets were an afterthought come April and May. That all changed and Moses secured his place in history the next season when Philadelphia sought him out to deliver them their first Championship in 16 years and he delivered.

Malone won his third MVP and the 76ers won 12 of 13 games en route to the title. This is without a doubt the most critical season of Malone's career. Without it, he drops to the tail end of the top 25 for me. It was the one point of his career where he was considered the best player in the world. Despite his eye popping numbers, the aesthetically unpleasing Malone seemed to be excluded from the elite company (Walton, Kareem, Erving) during the late 70's.

After the Championship season, Malone and the Sixers began to show their age. Though Moses would play at a high level for the next four seasons, it was Magic and Bird who took center stage and with Kareem, the elder statesman of the NBA, joining them in the spotlight, Moses was severely overshadowed.

That's not the only significant thing about the '83 season. Moses made the famous fo-fo-fo guarantee, predicting three consecutive sweeps for Philadelphia. Though the came up a game short, the three series wins vault Moses postseason resume to respectability. Excluding that season, Malone's teams were just 6-12 in postseason series. His nine series wins are more than just three players in my all-time top 30; the oft injured Walton and Bob Pettit and Oscar Robertson who played in the era of the six team playoff. Additionally, only Robertson (8-9) and Charles Barkley (12-13) join Malone with losing records for their career in postseason series.

Now it's true that Moses didn't always have the best players around him, but neither did a lot of guys who managed to win more playoff series in a lead role and certainly win a greater percentage.

You were spot on in your assessment of Malone and his game, I think those, along with the few things I added are the key factors in him being underrated/overlooked, to review:

1) Sandwiched between the Kareem/Doc era and the Magic/Bird era. All were more high profile, more relate-able stars. Moses was shy, he mumbled, people assumed he was not very intelligent. The NBA at the time had a bad reputation is a haven for spoiled primadonnas and immature drugged up losers, though Moses was neither, he seemed to get lumped in with that which was ruining pro basketball.

2) Lack of playoff success. Three times in his career his team won a playoff series. '81, '83 and '85. Again his 9-12 record in playoff series relative to the records of Erving (25-13), Jabbar (37-12), Magic (32-8), Bird (23-8) and Isiah Thomas (16-7), the other superstars whose primes overlapped with Moses 1978-1987 run.

Moses Malone is the Bob Pettit of his era, overshadowed by the flashier stars (Wilt, Russell, Baylor, Oscar, West for Pettit, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Doc and Isiah for Moses) but just as or more successful than many in the end.


As for my rankings...I do have Moses behind both Duncan and Hakeem.

In Moses prime he was giving 26-14-2-2, Hakeem was good for 24-12-3-3-2, Duncan 22-12-3-3, hard to go wrong with any of those guys.

Moses does have the MVP edge over both, both Duncan and Hakeem have the Finals MVP edge...

Moses 3 MVP's 1 Finals MVP
Duncan 2 MVP's 3 Finals MVP's
Hakeem 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's

Duncan leads the way with nine all-NBA first team selections, Hakeem had six, Moses four.

The biggest difference between these guys is at the defensive end and in the playoffs. Moses was solid, he made two all-defensive teams and averaged a respectable 22 and 14 for his postseason career. However Duncan and Hakeem are all-time greats defensively. Duncan has made 13 all-defensive teams and Hakeem made nine in an era where he competed with Eaton, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo, Shaq and Mourning at various times.

Additionally, Duncan and Hakeem were money come playoff time. Both guys posted numbers for their playoff careers that were greater than their prime averages and both consistently raised their scoring. From '99 on Duncan raised his scoring in all but one post-season. Hakeem raised his in six of nine post-seasons from '86 to '95. During Moses prime seasons of '79 to '87, only once, 1983 did Moses increase his offensive production in the post-season.

All of that adds up to this for me right now

-------------
#8 Duncan


#11 Hakeem
#12 Moses
-------------

[stephanieg]

Many years ago either on NBATV or ESPN classic they showed an '83 Spurs-LA WCF playoff game. Can't judge from one game of course, and he was a bit older and past his prime I imagine, but Gilmore reminded me a lot of Dwight from a couple years ago except a bit bigger. Awesome around the basket, but if he caught the ball more than 8 feet away he looked a little lost. He made some good passes and was good at getting position. Struck me as a really strong, bull in the china shop sorta dude.

[KevinNYC]

Thanks for your erudite and lengthy response.



Hakeem actually only won one MVP.
Yeah, I think I confused that with Finals wins



All of that adds up to this for me right now

-------------
#8 Duncan

#11 Hakeem
#12 Moses
-------------


I'm a big fan of Hakeem and loved watching him torch Ewing in the Finals, but I felt Moses is getting dissed because he's right there with Hakeem for me. There's a reason Moses won three MVP's and to put the 1 time MVP Hakeem way ahead of him indicates the poster wasn't around when Moses was causing panic in the paint.

I think it's cool that Moses mentored Hakeem.

[DKLaker]

Among the all time great bigs he is not often mentioned..

For his career (ABA and NBA) he averaged:
18.8 PPG
12.3 RPG
2.4 BPG
.582 FG
3.1 TOPG

Won an ABA Championship and a ABA MVP award.
Made 6 NBA all star games and 5 ABA all star games.

So this is one for the old heads on ISH, or guys that read up on oldschool ball. How good was this man? I've read about him in articles in magazines and books, but I easily forget about him everyime :confusedshrug: Where do you rank him and who can you compare his game too?


Whooo Hoooooo, THANK YOU for posting this!!!!!!! :applause: :bowdown: :applause:
I was a big fan of his in the day......loved watching him play!!!!!

He was always in the shadow of Kareem and other greats in a solid Big Man era. He would OWN the centers currently playing and win MVP.

[bizil]

I think Big Artis is in the top 20 centers of all time. I feel the top six of all time are Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Moses, and Hakeem. Then u got the guys like Ewing, Robinson, Walton, Thurmond, Mikan (pioneer status probably has him high), Reed, Unseld, Lanier, Zo, Mutumbo, Parish, and Gilmore. I think your alpha dog scoring type centers are Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Moses, Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson. The others are second or even third option type guys. But those second and third option guys D up and board as good as any C's. Big Dwight has the potential to start reordering the Center list though.

[bizil]

Whooo Hoooooo, THANK YOU for posting this!!!!!!! :applause: :bowdown: :applause:
I was a big fan of his in the day......loved watching him play!!!!!

He was always in the shadow of Kareem and other greats in a solid Big Man era. He would OWN the centers currently playing and win MVP.

Yes Big Artis would be awesome in today's game! It's a shame what has become of the center crop these days. The center spot I believe has the most MVP's of any position. Dwight is a great C. Yao can be when healthy. But other than that u don't have those HOF caliber type bigs anymore. And it's not about averaging 25 points and up. Guys like Russell, Unseld, etc. proved u can be a HOF center by being a reliable 2nd or third option scoring threat but also a DOMINANT defender and rebounder. And anybody who questions the greatness of Moses doesn't know bball. At one point, it was clear the big four centers EVER were Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Moses. And even now you can argue Moses over Hakeem. I just think many lead to Hakeem due to his D and scoring skillset. But as far as numbers and impact, Moses and Hakeem are on the same playing field. Moses's resume as far as MVPs, rings, etc. speaks for itself.

[feyki]

BASKET BOWL VIII

INGLEWOOD-For the first time in the eight-year history of the Basket Bowl series, an ABA team was made the favorite heading into the contest. Las Vegas oddsmakers installed the Kentucky Colonels, led by 7-2 center Artis Gilmore, sharpshooting 6-9 forward Dan Issel and the league's all-time leader in points and assists in 6-0 guard Louie Dampier, as 3 1/2 point favorites over the upstart NBA champion Golden St. Warriors. The Warriors had swept the heavily-favored Bullets 4-0 in the NBA Finals behind the brilliant all-around play of Rick Barry, (now back in the NBA after a four-year stint in the ABA), rookie-of-the-year Keith Wilkes and a deep bench employed by coach Al Attles.


Kentucky, which won more games than any franchise in the nine-year history of the ABA, finally captured their first league title after several playoff disappointments. In 1972 they had won a league-record 68 games but were upset in the first round by a .500 New York Net team. In 1973 they fell to tKentucky1975
val Indiana 4-3 in the finals and the following year they were swept by eventual champion New York and Julius Erving. But in 1975 they took no prisoners and won three successive series by 4-1 scores, exacting a measure of revenge against the Pacers in the championship series.


The Colonels, coached themselves by future NBA guru Hubie Brown, were well-prepared to take advantage of the Warriors' achilles heel, which just happened to be Kentucky's strongest point--center. Gilmore far out-classed the Warrior three-headed pivot monster of George Johnson, Clifford Ray and Derrek Dickey, powering his way to 42 points. When the Warriors double and triple teamed Gilmore down low, the sharpshooting Dampier and Issel punished them with three-point bombs and 20-footers.


Barry was valiant in defeat, scoring 34 points while Wilkes added 25, but the Warriors never led in the game. Kentucky blazed to a 63-52 lead at intermission on 58 percent shooting. Golden St. closed the gap to 90-86 after three quarters and Barry started the final stanza with a 20-footer to cut the deficit to two, but that was as close as they got. Kentucky answered and effectively ended the game with a 12-0 run behind four points each by their aforementioned trio of stars for the first convincing win by the ABA in the Basket Bowl series.


Basket Bowl VIII
The Fabulous ForumInglewwod,
CAJune 7,
1975MVP-Artis Gilmore, Kentucky


1975 ABA Champion KENTUCKY COLONELS (58-26, 12-3 playoffs) Coach: Hubie BrownWil Jones 3-8 4-6 10, Dan Issel 13-20 4-5 30, Artis Gilmore 18-27 6-9 42, Ted McClain 4-11 2-3 10, Louie Dampier 8-18 2-2 21, Bird Averitt 2-4 0-0 4, Marv Roberts 2-5 0-1 4, Gene Littles 1-3 0-0 2. TOTALS: 51-96 18-26 123. 3-point goals: Dampier 3.


1975 NBA Champion GOLDEN ST. WARRIORS (48-34, 12-5 playoffs) Coach: Al AttlesRick Barry 14-30 4-4 34, Keith Wilkes 11-20 3-4 25, George Johnson 2-5 1-2 5, Butch Beard 3-7 2-3 8, Charles Johnson 4-11 0-0 8, Phil Smith 6-11 2-3 14, Derrick Dickey 1-2 0-0 2, Jeff Mullins 4-8 5-6 13, Charles Dudley 1-1 1-2 3, Clifford Ray 0. TOTALS: 46-95 18-24 112. 3-point goals: Barry 2.


Total fouls-Kentucky 27, Golden St. 28. Rebounds-Kentucky 56 (Gilmore 17), Golden St. 46 (Ray 10). Assists-Kentucky 23 (Dampier 10), Golden St. 22 (Beard, Barry 6). Team rebounds-Kentucky 3, Golden St. 2. Deadball rebounds-Kentucky 3, Golden St. 2. Technical-Barry. Referees-Strom, Rudolph, Gushue.Score by Quarters1234FinalKentucky34292733123Golden State25273426112

Not in Top 10 , but definitely in top 15 ..

Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaquille
Mikan
Moses
Admiral
Ewing
Cowens
Unseld
And Artis/Thurmond probably about 12th/13th .

...

[HylianNightmare]

His legacy varies, overall I believe he is underrated historically and not just because he was denied entry to the hall of fame all this time.

At over 7'2" and with excellent strength and leaping ability Gilmore was a near prototype defensive center for his or any era.

Gilmore was the player who first legitimized the ABA. He came to the league in 1971 along with Julius Erving in the ABA's most pivotal off-season ever.

In that first season, 71-72, Gilmore won rookie of the year and his team, the Kentucky Colonels won an ABA record 68 games. However they were upset in the playoffs for the first of several times in Gilmore's career.

Erving supplanted Gilmore as the ABA's best player shortly after that season, but Artis remained the league's first team and all-defensive center for the next four seasons. In 1975 the Colonels won their only ABA title, two years later, Gilmore was the first pick in the dispersal draft after the ABA/NBA merger.

Artis went to the Bulls, who were coming off a great run in the mid-70's, however their core of players was now past their prime.


The NBA exposed a number of Gilmore's limitations:

1) He was only once an all-NBA center (2nd team) in the NBA whereas he was consistently the top center in the ABA

2) Gilmore was usually a second or two slow with his reactions and spent too much time in foul trouble and playing defensive basketball trying to avoid foul trouble.

3) Gilmore, despite his numerous talents, was not a motivator or leader and his teams, which rarely made the playoffs never got very far when they did.


Defensively he was always solid; a good shot blocker, but most an intimidating presence. His teams got better defensively when he showed up. To me, from the footage I've seen, he was a spectacular on-ball defender.

Offensively he understood his limitations and was consistently a 15-22 ppg scorer at one of the leagues most efficient clips. (typically around or over 60%) However he was never a good passer, even out of the double team, and never developed any go-to post moves or semblance of a jump shot or offensive game outside eight feet.

To find a more modern comparison, he was Dikembe Mutombo with more athleticism and a better jump hook, but his timing as a shot blocker is not where Dike's was.

I rank him somewhere near the end of my third tier, players who could be a critical piece of a Championship team in the right scenario, in a tier with Mutombo, Mourning, Mel Daniels, Robert Parish, Neil Johnston and the like.





I miss this poster

[Psileas]

BASKET BOWL VIII

INGLEWOOD-For the first time in the eight-year history of the Basket Bowl series, an ABA team was made the favorite heading into the contest. Las Vegas oddsmakers installed the Kentucky Colonels, led by 7-2 center Artis Gilmore, sharpshooting 6-9 forward Dan Issel and the league's all-time leader in points and assists in 6-0 guard Louie Dampier, as 3 1/2 point favorites over the upstart NBA champion Golden St. Warriors. The Warriors had swept the heavily-favored Bullets 4-0 in the NBA Finals behind the brilliant all-around play of Rick Barry, (now back in the NBA after a four-year stint in the ABA), rookie-of-the-year Keith Wilkes and a deep bench employed by coach Al Attles.


Kentucky, which won more games than any franchise in the nine-year history of the ABA, finally captured their first league title after several playoff disappointments. In 1972 they had won a league-record 68 games but were upset in the first round by a .500 New York Net team. In 1973 they fell to tKentucky1975
val Indiana 4-3 in the finals and the following year they were swept by eventual champion New York and Julius Erving. But in 1975 they took no prisoners and won three successive series by 4-1 scores, exacting a measure of revenge against the Pacers in the championship series.


The Colonels, coached themselves by future NBA guru Hubie Brown, were well-prepared to take advantage of the Warriors' achilles heel, which just happened to be Kentucky's strongest point--center. Gilmore far out-classed the Warrior three-headed pivot monster of George Johnson, Clifford Ray and Derrek Dickey, powering his way to 42 points. When the Warriors double and triple teamed Gilmore down low, the sharpshooting Dampier and Issel punished them with three-point bombs and 20-footers.


Barry was valiant in defeat, scoring 34 points while Wilkes added 25, but the Warriors never led in the game. Kentucky blazed to a 63-52 lead at intermission on 58 percent shooting. Golden St. closed the gap to 90-86 after three quarters and Barry started the final stanza with a 20-footer to cut the deficit to two, but that was as close as they got. Kentucky answered and effectively ended the game with a 12-0 run behind four points each by their aforementioned trio of stars for the first convincing win by the ABA in the Basket Bowl series.


Basket Bowl VIII
The Fabulous ForumInglewwod,
CAJune 7,
1975MVP-Artis Gilmore, Kentucky


1975 ABA Champion KENTUCKY COLONELS (58-26, 12-3 playoffs) Coach: Hubie BrownWil Jones 3-8 4-6 10, Dan Issel 13-20 4-5 30, Artis Gilmore 18-27 6-9 42, Ted McClain 4-11 2-3 10, Louie Dampier 8-18 2-2 21, Bird Averitt 2-4 0-0 4, Marv Roberts 2-5 0-1 4, Gene Littles 1-3 0-0 2. TOTALS: 51-96 18-26 123. 3-point goals: Dampier 3.


1975 NBA Champion GOLDEN ST. WARRIORS (48-34, 12-5 playoffs) Coach: Al AttlesRick Barry 14-30 4-4 34, Keith Wilkes 11-20 3-4 25, George Johnson 2-5 1-2 5, Butch Beard 3-7 2-3 8, Charles Johnson 4-11 0-0 8, Phil Smith 6-11 2-3 14, Derrick Dickey 1-2 0-0 2, Jeff Mullins 4-8 5-6 13, Charles Dudley 1-1 1-2 3, Clifford Ray 0. TOTALS: 46-95 18-24 112. 3-point goals: Barry 2.


Total fouls-Kentucky 27, Golden St. 28. Rebounds-Kentucky 56 (Gilmore 17), Golden St. 46 (Ray 10). Assists-Kentucky 23 (Dampier 10), Golden St. 22 (Beard, Barry 6). Team rebounds-Kentucky 3, Golden St. 2. Deadball rebounds-Kentucky 3, Golden St. 2. Technical-Barry. Referees-Strom, Rudolph, Gushue.Score by Quarters1234FinalKentucky34292733123Golden State25273426112

Τhese are fictional accounts.

[feyki]

Τhese are fictional accounts.

:biggums:

Liar apbr , they cut them fiction part in the description :coleman:

But that was nice to reading .

[LAZERUSS]

Τhese are fictional accounts.


Never heard of "Basket Bowl."

The NBA-ABA did have multiple EXHIBITION games from the early 70's into the mid-70's (all before the regular seasons started BTW), but virtually no one considered them meaningful except for perhaps a few ABA fans.

[hiphopfan777]

James harden broke his record for most turnovers in a season.