Scottie Pippen vs Dirk Nowitzki

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.nba.com/media/act_scottie_pippen.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/allstar2006/nowitzki_300_060125.jpg

Who do you have ranked higher?

[Soothing Layup]

Dirk is definitely the better player, by far.

[jb220]

damn good question....

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player

[edhemsoccer]

Scottie Pippen ranks higher for me. 6 titles. Second best player on 6 titles. Dirk choked away the 2006 title. Lost in the 1st round AS the MVP vs the Warriors. Scottie Pippen is better.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Disco Dirk:banana: :dancin :hammertime:

[LJJ]

damn good question....

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player


:oldlol:

I know who you are

[Kellogs4toniee]

Pippen right now. If Nowitzki wins a ring, then he is higher. Yes Pippen will always have those six rings, but being the undisputed franchise player and being an elite player at your position for 12+ seasons and having a ring to show for it trumps those six in my opinion because Pippen was elite at his position for only about 5-6 seasons and did not have the franchise-player responsibilities that Dirk has been shouldered with since he came to Dallas.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Scotte Pippen. Dirk has not proved yet he can be the best guy on a championship team.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Scotte Pippen. Dirk has not proved yet he can be the best guy on a championship team.

Has Scottie?

[moaz]

Has Scottie?
Sure he did 1994 & 1995 when Mj took his break. He won the Illinois Championship with the Bulls.

[silenc]

30.Scottie Pippen
31.George Mikan
32.George Gervin
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Dirk Nowitzki
35. Gary Payton

[Timofey Mozgov]

Sure he did 1994 & 1995 when Mj took his break. He won the Illinois Championship with the Bulls.
So....proving = winning 1 round in the playoffs when Dirk has led a team to the Finals? And let's not forget that before Jordan returned late the next season, the Bulls were on pace to finish .500.

[PistonsFan#21]

Nowitzki is an amazing offensive player and an average defender
Pippen is an amazing defensive player and a good offensive player

I would probably build a team around Nowitzki though

[pauk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille Oneal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Kobe Bryant
14. John Havlicek
15. Bob Pettit
16. Moses Malone
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Lebron James
22. Scottie Pippen
23. Bob Cousy
24. David Robinson
25. George Mikan
26. Jason Kidd
27. kevin garnett
28. Dirk Nowitzki
29. George Gervin
30. Dwyane Wade

[west]

Imagine Jordan with Dirk......

[D.J.]

Dirk is the more talented player, but Scottie is the better two way player. Scottie also has 6 rings(as a sidekick or otherwise) and Dirk doesn't have any. Scottie is ranked higher for now, but Dirk with a ring may surpass him.

[the_wise_one]

Dirk is way better.

[pauk]

Dirk is the more talented player, but Scottie is the better two way player. Scottie also has 6 rings(as a sidekick or otherwise) and Dirk doesn't have any. Scottie is ranked higher for now, but Dirk with a ring may surpass him.
agree...


exactly.... its not about how many rings... its about the VALUE of those rings.... 1 ring & FMVP as the man and leader of your team and one of the best players in the nba... and with his MVP's and accomplishments... its more than enough to overshadow 6 rings as a sidekick...

[comerb]

Imagine Jordan with Dirk......

Jordan would be constantly reaming him out for shitty defense

[Sarcastic]

Scottie Pippen is crazy overrated. Dirk is a far better all around player.

[Human Error]

Dirk not having a ring does not have much to do when we compare him to Pippen in my opinion, Dirk was never paired someone as good as Michael Jordan and Pippen never won a ring as the team's best player. Karl Malone never won a ring but he is better than Pippen. With that said, I think Nowitki is better than Pippen, Dirk has been a top 5-8 player in the league for the last 7-8 seasons and the same thing cannot be said for Pippen. Pippen was a unique talent and one of all time greats though.

[MayCeltics]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bHj0Dh0TcyU/ScHVndU-CyI/AAAAAAAAAEg/59KsPDo_Swc/i-see-what-you-did-there-lolcats-lol-epiclosers.jpg

[DMAVS41]

Dirk, but I'm biased.

I actually rank them both in the same tier....around 25th all time.

[BarberSchool]

Dirk is way better.Only shooting/scoring, and rebounding. Everything else pippen is better.

[Bigsmoke]

i hate these threads

[game385]

Dirk is the better offensive player. Scottie was by far the better defensive player. Overall, I'd rank Scottie higher all-time. Rings mean everything.

This might be a more interesting debate if Dirk had ever got the opportunity to be the 2nd best player on his team...

[skaterbasist]

Weird comparison.

Dirk has a better offensive game. But Pippen was better at everything else (passing, just as good in rebounding, MUCH better defender).

[Round Mound]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille Oneal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Kobe Bryant
14. John Havlicek
15. Bob Pettit
16. Moses Malone
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Lebron James
22. Scottie Pippen
23. Bob Cousy
24. David Robinson
25. George Mikan
26. Jason Kidd
27. kevin garnett
28. Dirk Nowitzki
29. George Gervin
30. Dwyane Wade

Pathetic list u must have watched Barkley after 1995....Barkley was and always will be a better more dominant player than Malone: stat padder playing in a pick and roll system designed by Stockton and Sloan

[nightprowler10]

Hmm...Dirk might have the edge as a 1st option, but I don't know. Two very different players.

[97 bulls]

This is crazy. The only thing dirk has over pippen is a better jumpshot. Another comparison in which pippen get disrepected. Pippen is the better passer, better rebounder, and farrrrrrrrrrrrr better defensively.

Pippen is better than dirk.

[jb220]

This is crazy. The only thing dirk has over pippen is a better jumpshot. Another comparison in which pippen get disrepected. Pippen is the better passer, better rebounder, and farrrrrrrrrrrrr better defensively.

Pippen is better than dirk.
wow... man... looking at ur name i'd swear u would have chosen dirk... lol.. u biased lil fuuuck...

[SinJackal]

As much as I like Dirk, Pippen was the better player.

Dirk is the better offensive player, but jesus christ people. . Pippen is much better in so many areas.

Pippen is:

Much more athletic
Has much better handles
Is a much better passer
Is easily a better defender, in the post and on the perimeter


Dirk is:

slightly better rebounder
better jumpshot
taller



And let's not act like Pippen wasn't a 20 PPG scorer anyway. Dirk is a better scorer sure, but Pippen was still a good scorer, and a great facilitator who also happened to play fantastic defense.

Pippen is better. By whatever margin.

[Disaprine]

Pippen, by the time dirk career is over he'll be around 20 to 25 all time near pippen.

[97 bulls]

wow... man... looking at ur name i'd swear u would have chosen dirk... lol.. u biased lil fuuuck...
Shut yo strange A.S.S up.

[97 bulls]

As much as I like Dirk, Pippen was the better player.

Dirk is the better offensive player, but jesus christ people. . Pippen is much better in so many areas.

Pippen is:

Much more athletic
Has much better handles
Is a much better passer
Is easily a better defender, in the post and on the perimeter


Dirk is:

slightly better rebounder
better jumpshot
taller



And let's not act like Pippen wasn't a 20 PPG scorer anyway. Dirk is a better scorer sure, but Pippen was still a good scorer, and a great facilitator who also happened to play fantastic defense.

Pippen is better. By whatever margin.
I wouldn't even say he's a better rebounder. I mean, the man is 7'0 tall to pippen 6'8. Pippen giving him 4 inches. He should be a dominating rebounder. Pound for pound, pippen is a better rebounder.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Dirk is the more talented player, but Scottie is the better two way player. Scottie also has 6 rings(as a sidekick or otherwise) and Dirk doesn't have any. Scottie is ranked higher for now, but Dirk with a ring may surpass him.
This...but I do think that Pippen and Dirk would make a pretty awesome duo together.

[hookul]

I wouldn't even say he's a better rebounder. I mean, the man is 7'0 tall to pippen 6'8. Pippen giving him 4 inches. He should be a dominating rebounder. Pound for pound, pippen is a better rebounder.

Ok, 1st of all, acting as if Pippen was a sure 20 ppg player is cherrypicking. He only had a very short stretch in his career (4-6y) where he produced those number in the regular season or in the playoffs. Dirk on the other hand got you around 25 pts in both regular season an playoffs for practically 10 y now on a much higher efficiency. Dirk is a career 26pts playoff performer as the 1st option vs Pippen being - even in his prime years - a 19pts playoff performer. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

2nd, even when not looking at the number and taking "nonmeasurable" things in account - such as Pippens better defense. I swear to god, it seems that people rarely watch Dirk play and how teams react to him. If one still has not grasp that for 10y now, Dirk on the team means huuuge intangibles than you do not understand basketball. Teams design their gameplan around stopping him, teams have to pick their poison if you double him (leaving other teammates open & given them much higher % shots) or if they guard him one-on-one and this normally means that big opposing men get stretched out of their comfort zone and creating penetrating lanes for Dirk

[Maestro33]

I cant even believe this is a thread. Constant winner, position redefining player vs shoot only, perennial choker uhh gee whiz.

[SevereUpInHere]

damn good question....

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[matts290]

damn good question....

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player

At first you were annoying but now all your posts have me rolling. :D

[LA_Showtime]

Who's this JB220 troll? He/she/it's ridiculous.

[whoartthou]

[QUOTE=hookul]Ok, 1st of all, acting as if Pippen was a sure 20 ppg player is cherrypicking. He only had a very short stretch in his career (4-6y) where he produced those number in the regular season or in the playoffs. Dirk on the other hand got you around 25 pts in both regular season an playoffs for practically 10 y now on a much higher efficiency. Dirk is a career 26pts playoff performer as the 1st option vs Pippen being - even in his prime years - a 19pts playoff performer. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

2nd, even when not looking at the number and taking "nonmeasurable" things in account - such as Pippens better defense. I swear to god, it seems that people rarely watch Dirk play and how teams react to him. If one still has not grasp that for 10y now, Dirk on the team means huuuge intangibles than you do not understand basketball. Teams design their gameplan around stopping him, teams have to pick their poison if you double him (leaving other teammates open & given them much higher % shots) or if they guard him one-on-one and this normally means that big opposing men get stretched out of their comfort zone and creating penetrating lanes for Dirk

[Lodi Dodi]

damn good question....

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player

Lol Scottie the Naughty Pippen.

Also Dirk's face does look like the horse on the Mavericks symbol.

:roll:

[silenc]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille Oneal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Kobe Bryant
14. John Havlicek
15. Bob Pettit
16. Moses Malone
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Lebron James
22. Scottie Pippen
23. Bob Cousy
24. David Robinson
25. George Mikan
26. Jason Kidd
27. kevin garnett
28. Dirk Nowitzki
29. George Gervin
30. Dwyane Wade

RICK BARRY :facepalm

[Stuckey]

dirk, not that close

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=hookul]Ok, 1st of all, acting as if Pippen was a sure 20 ppg player is cherrypicking. He only had a very short stretch in his career (4-6y) where he produced those number in the regular season or in the playoffs. Dirk on the other hand got you around 25 pts in both regular season an playoffs for practically 10 y now on a much higher efficiency. Dirk is a career 26pts playoff performer as the 1st option vs Pippen being - even in his prime years - a 19pts playoff performer. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

2nd, even when not looking at the number and taking "nonmeasurable" things in account - such as Pippens better defense. I swear to god, it seems that people rarely watch Dirk play and how teams react to him. If one still has not grasp that for 10y now, Dirk on the team means huuuge intangibles than you do not understand basketball. Teams design their gameplan around stopping him, teams have to pick their poison if you double him (leaving other teammates open & given them much higher % shots) or if they guard him one-on-one and this normally means that big opposing men get stretched out of their comfort zone and creating penetrating lanes for Dirk

[the_wise_one]

I cant even believe this is a thread. Constant winner, position redefining player vs shoot only, perennial choker uhh gee whiz.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKOXd6BM20g

[hookul]

Let's look at it like this. As far as scoring, your trying to give the nod to a guy who never had to share the ball with jordan. Look at james and wade and once they joined together, lost about 3-4 ppg of their basic production. Im a staunch believer that pippen could've had seasons in which he avg 25 ppg if he didn't have to share the ball with jordan.

Who's expected to do more? Dirk has never ever been asked, no expected, to run the point, score, pass, rebound, full court press, trap, playe help defense, shut down the oppositons best perimeter scorer block shots and be the emotional leader. And do all these things at a high level. The only thing dirk does at a high level is score. Even as a rebounder, for a 7 footer, he's not much better than pippen. And sure he plays on the perimeter, but that's only on offense. Most rebounds are on the defensive side of the ball. And he's never had to share that duty with a player like rodman or horace grant. Not to mention, pippen was a perimeter player too. And that's on both sides of the ball. And he rebounded against players dirk never had to battle. Put nowitzki in the 90s with those great centers and power forwards and he's at best a 7 rbd per game 7' foot power forward.

Its amazing that this comparison is even being brought up. Dirk has been a great player and put up great stats, but before last week was considered a looser over his career. He's lead teams to underachieving and not much more. Pippen is better.

That Dirk was considered a looser over his career is a joke. This is like labeling Malone, Barkley or LeBron a career looser and underachiever. Frankly I think it is just as amazing to me that this comparison is brought up but simply because Dirk is better.

Regarding your points...you do realize that Pippen in his prime (!) was the 1st option for a good period of time and still failed to produce at the level you mention he could. His production as the 1st option was below the career average of Dirk for scoring and rebound. Also after he left Chicago he failed to produce even close to what Dirk does on a regular basis. And for a perimeter player, Pippen was not so old already that you can just excuse this with his age. So you can repeat your mantra that "Im a staunch believer that pippen could've had seasons in which he avg 25 ppg if he didn't have to share the ball with jordan." but the fact of the matter is that in his prime being the 1st option, he "only" produced 22pg and never even got above 15ppg while still playing between 32-40 min a game at the age of 33-35 years in non-Jordan teams.

And you do realize that you shot yourself in the foot with the rebounding ? When mentioning defensive rebounds, Dirk was in terms of defense rebounding very close to players like Duncan and Garnett (about 1 drpg only in regular season and closer in the playoffs). You cannot just repeat your mantra that Dirk is just a little bit better than Pippen in rebounding and expect it to be true, it is just false. Dirk is the significantly better rebounder.

[bond10]

That Dirk was considered a looser over his career is a joke. This is like labeling Malone, Barkley or LeBron a career looser and underachiever. Frankly I think it is just as amazing to me that this comparison is brought up but simply because Dirk is better.

Regarding your points...you do realize that Pippen in his prime (!) was the 1st option for a good period of time and still failed to produce at the level you mention he could. His production as the 1st option was below the career average of Dirk for scoring and rebound. Also after he left Chicago he failed to produce even close to what Dirk does on a regular basis. And for a perimeter player, Pippen was not so old already that you can just excuse this with his age. So you can repeat your mantra that "Im a staunch believer that pippen could've had seasons in which he avg 25 ppg if he didn't have to share the ball with jordan." but the fact of the matter is that in his prime being the 1st option, he "only" produced 22pg and never even got above 15ppg while still playing between 32-40 min a game at the age of 33-35 years in non-Jordan teams.

And you do realize that you shot yourself in the foot with the rebounding ? When mentioning defensive rebounds, Dirk was in terms of defense rebounding very close to players like Duncan and Garnett (about 1 drpg only in regular season and closer in the playoffs). You cannot just repeat your mantra that Dirk is just a little bit better than Pippen in rebounding and expect it to be true, it is just false. Dirk is the significantly better rebounder.


You should post in more threads. :applause:

[97 bulls]

That Dirk was considered a looser over his career is a joke. This is like labeling Malone, Barkley or LeBron a career looser and underachiever. Frankly I think it is just as amazing to me that this comparison is brought up but simply because Dirk is better.

Regarding your points...you do realize that Pippen in his prime (!) was the 1st option for a good period of time and still failed to produce at the level you mention he could. His production as the 1st option was below the career average of Dirk for scoring and rebound. Also after he left Chicago he failed to produce even close to what Dirk does on a regular basis. And for a perimeter player, Pippen was not so old already that you can just excuse this with his age. So you can repeat your mantra that "Im a staunch believer that pippen could've had seasons in which he avg 25 ppg if he didn't have to share the ball with jordan." but the fact of the matter is that in his prime being the 1st option, he "only" produced 22pg and never even got above 15ppg while still playing between 32-40 min a game at the age of 33-35 years in non-Jordan teams.

And you do realize that you shot yourself in the foot with the rebounding ? When mentioning defensive rebounds, Dirk was in terms of defense rebounding very close to players like Duncan and Garnett (about 1 drpg only in regular season and closer in the playoffs). You cannot just repeat your mantra that Dirk is just a little bit better than Pippen in rebounding and expect it to be true, it is just false. Dirk is the significantly better rebounder.
Dirk has been on stacked teams that have underacheieved his whole career. Remember 06? When they had miami down 3-1. How bout that time when the warriors (an 8th seed) put them out. And as great a scorer as dirk is, why was kobe able to outscore him and his team over 3 quarters? Even in this series vs the lakers, due to past history, many people feel the lakers wiil still end up winning this series. And that's based on the mavericks track record. I guess looser is a strong term. But malone, barkley, and most other have never been in the same situation as nowitzki.

As far as pippen being able to score 25 ppg, I don't see why he couldn't. Even though 22 is damn good considering all the other things pippen needed to do to keep the bulls competitive. Let's say they get another bonafide player that could take a portion of what pippen did off his hands, similar to jason kidd. Why couldn't he score 3 extra ppg if he had more help? And he was not the main option in houston or portland. In houston the offensive load was olajuwan then barkley, then pippen. Besides his offensive talents were really hindered in houston. He was asked to be a spot up shooter. And in portland, he was 35. I don't know very many 35 year olds that could put up 25-26 ppg. And for you to allude to him not being able to put up that many ppg at that age age is unrealistic and petty.

I've stated this before, there alot of guys that are considered great scorers that didn't really score no more than 2-4 ppg more than pippen as a career high. I think pippens ppg would ve continued to improve from 94 to 98. Maybe something like 22, 22, 23, 25, 23. Then decline after 99.

And in no way shape or form did I shhot myself in the foot by saying pippen was a better rebounder than pippen. When I said dirk spend most of his time on the defensive side of theball down low, I was showing that he has more rebounding oportunities than pippen who spends most of his time on the perimeter.

I just addressed the offensive side of the ball. I havnt said anything about the defensive side in which pippen destroys dirk. Pippen is better.

[gotbacon23]

pippen and dirk both have great playoff melt downs. pippen (vs pistons, then versus lakers in his blazers years), dirk (versus warriors and heat). both also had great playoff success- i know dirk doesn't have any rings, but he has been the #1 guy on his team his whole career, pippen was only for a year basically so its comparing apples to oranges. look at dirk versus the spurs in '06, suns in '06.... he was a beast.

anyway... dirk is one of the best shooting big men ever and can score in a variety of ways.

pippen is one of the best ball handling forwards ever and one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

i think pippen's versatility and defense puts him ahead of dirk but i think its closer than people think. pippen has had just as many playoff meltdowns as dirk and both actually are very good playoff performers as a whole. the six rings issue isn't a fair comparison (and i never think comparing rings is a good idea) because their team situations were completely different.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk has been on stacked teams that have underacheieved his whole career. Remember 06? When they had miami down 3-1. How bout that time when the warriors (an 8th seed) put them out. And as great a scorer as dirk is, why was kobe able to outscore him and his team over 3 quarters? Even in this series vs the lakers, due to past history, many people feel the lakers wiil still end up winning this series. And that's based on the mavericks track record. I guess looser is a strong term. But malone, barkley, and most other have never been in the same situation as nowitzki.

As far as pippen being able to score 25 ppg, I don't see why he couldn't. Even though 22 is damn good considering all the other things pippen needed to do to keep the bulls competitive. Let's say they get another bonafide player that could take a portion of what pippen did off his hands, similar to jason kidd. Why couldn't he score 3 extra ppg if he had more help? And he was not the main option in houston or portland. In houston the offensive load was olajuwan then barkley, then pippen. Besides his offensive talents were really hindered in houston. He was asked to be a spot up shooter. And in portland, he was 35. I don't know very many 35 year olds that could put up 25-26 ppg. And for you to allude to him not being able to put up that many ppg at that age age is unrealistic and petty.

I've stated this before, there alot of guys that are considered great scorers that didn't really score no more than 2-4 ppg more than pippen as a career high. I think pippens ppg would ve continued to improve from 94 to 98. Maybe something like 22, 22, 23, 25, 23. Then decline after 99.

And in no way shape or form did I shhot myself in the foot by saying pippen was a better rebounder than pippen. When I said dirk spend most of his time on the defensive side of theball down low, I was showing that he has more rebounding oportunities than pippen who spends most of his time on the perimeter.

I just addressed the offensive side of the ball. I havnt said anything about the defensive side in which pippen destroys dirk. Pippen is better.

Some of your post has wrong data.

But forget that. Where do you rank the following players all time:

Dirk
Pippen
Stockton
Nash

[97 bulls]

pippen and dirk both have great playoff melt downs. pippen (vs pistons, then versus lakers in his blazers years), dirk (versus warriors and heat). both also had great playoff success- i know dirk doesn't have any rings, but he has been the #1 guy on his team his whole career, pippen was only for a year basically so its comparing apples to oranges. look at dirk versus the spurs in '06, suns in '06.... he was a beast.

anyway... dirk is one of the best shooting big men ever and can score in a variety of ways.

pippen is one of the best ball handling forwards ever and one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

i think pippen's versatility and defense puts him ahead of dirk but i think its closer than people think. pippen has had just as many playoff meltdowns as dirk and both actually are very good playoff performers as a whole. the six rings issue isn't a fair comparison (and i never think comparing rings is a good idea) because their team situations were completely different.

The "meltdowns" as you put it are in no way shape or form on the same level. I assume your talking about when pippen sat out due to a migrane headache. As if that isn't an injury. And im gonna assume you forgot that pippens father had died and that mayve been wieghting on him. And he was an old man when he was on the blazers. At that stage he was at best a solid role player.

Both of dirks issues happened with his team being the favorite. Now its not totally his fault but he is the face of the mavericks.

[97 bulls]

Some of your post has wrong data.

But forget that. Where do you rank the following players all time:

Dirk
Pippen
Stockton
Nash
Pippen stocton dirk nash. And what mistakes did I make?

[DMAVS41]

Pippen stocton dirk nash. And what mistakes did I make?

The Mavs were never up 3-1 and your so called melt downs really don't exist. 06 was hardly a melt down in the finals. Go watch game 5 and game 6 and then tell me Dirk wasn't amazing in those games.

Dirk made two potential game winning shots in game 5 alone. Only to have Wade answer the one in regulation and the refs allowed Wade to shove Terry to the ground and then gave Wade a touch foul on a play he went one on five.

It was a joke. In game 6 Dirk was amazing again.

Dirk is one of 4 players in NBA history to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the playoffs.

His elimination play has been amazing. He's never lost a game 7.....5-0.

You put too much emphasis on team accomplishments like most people do here.

I have no problem with someone ranking Pippen over Dirk. Its just a lot closer than you make it out to be.

And I don't see any argument at all for Stockton over Dirk. Why do you rank Stockton higher?

[gotbacon23]

The "meltdowns" as you put it are in no way shape or form on the same level. I assume your talking about when pippen sat out due to a migrane headache. As if that isn't an injury. And im gonna assume you forgot that pippens father had died and that mayve been wieghting on him. And he was an old man when he was on the blazers. At that stage he was at best a solid role player.

Both of dirks issues happened with his team being the favorite. Now its not totally his fault but he is the face of the mavericks.


true about his migrane's as well as his back injury being tweaked in game 6 of the 1998 finals. i think dirk just deserves more credit for his playoff success despite no rings.

37 points and 15 rebounds in an overtime game 7 win versus the defending NBA champ Spurs in 2006 on the road.

50 points versus the suns in game 5 with the series tied at 2 in 06.

mind you, i said i think pippen is better, but pippen never had to be the face of a team but for one year.

[97 bulls]

The Mavs were never up 3-1 and your so called melt downs really don't exist. 06 was hardly a melt down in the finals. Go watch game 5 and game 6 and then tell me Dirk wasn't amazing in those games.

Dirk made two potential game winning shots in game 5 alone. Only to have Wade answer the one in regulation and the refs allowed Wade to shove Terry to the ground and then gave Wade a touch foul on a play he went one on five.

It was a joke. In game 6 Dirk was amazing again.

Dirk is one of 4 players in NBA history to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the playoffs.

His elimination play has been amazing. He's never lost a game 7.....5-0.

You put too much emphasis on team accomplishments like most people do here.

I have no problem with someone ranking Pippen over Dirk. Its just a lot closer than you make it out to be.

And I don't see any argument at all for Stockton over Dirk. Why do you rank Stockton higher?
First, I agree with you in that we put farrr to much emphasis on winning. But I do also feel we put farrr to much emphasis on scoring too. Just think if dirk was a veryy good defender, to go along with his offensisive exploits. Maybe he has a ring now. As you know, im a bulls fan. And as much as I feel carlos boozer is playing bad offensively. Im more frustrated with his lack of defense. He constantly uot of position, he doesn't rotate, all he does is scream. Now while I feel dirk defense has improved over the years, it should be better. Which is why I rank stockton over him too. I feel offensively they're close. But stockton was a great defender.

My mistake about the the 06 finals.

[DMAVS41]

First, I agree with you in that we put farrr to much emphasis on winning. But I do also feel we put farrr to much emphasis on scoring too. Just think if dirk was a veryy good defender, to go along with his offensisive exploits. Maybe he has a ring now. As you know, im a bulls fan. And as much as I feel carlos boozer is playing bad offensively. Im more frustrated with his lack of defense. He constantly uot of position, he doesn't rotate, all he does is scream. Now while I feel dirk defense has improved over the years, it should be better. Which is why I rank stockton over him too. I feel offensively they're close. But stockton was a great defender.

My mistake about the the 06 finals.


For sure. And if Dirk played great defense...he'd be a top 8 player of all time and would be arguably the greatest PF ever. Unfortunately, he just can't do that.

But its not just his offense. He's one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time in the playoffs. He is a huge mismatch. You saw it last game.....his ability to stretch the floor takes the other teams bigs away from the paint....this led to barea getting in the paint routinely.

And lastly, Dirk has been one of the best clutch players of all time. He makes game winners on good volume at near 40%. His best games have come in game 7's and elimination games.

You can't compare players just off offense vs offense and then defense vs defense.

I think you make many fair points. I just still don't see how Stockton should be above Dirk. Stockton played with one of the best players of all time his entire career. He only made 2 finals and never won the title. Stockton came up short a number of times in the playoffs......more than Dirk actually.

In terms of impact, level of play, and resume....I just don't see Stockton over Dirk.

I do see very good arguments for Pippen over Dirk. I just think Pippen is really tough to rank all time and I go with Dirk because I know what he's capable of as the best player on a team in the playoffs. Pippen is a bit more of a mystery.

[97 bulls]

For sure. And if Dirk played great defense...he'd be a top 8 player of all time and would be arguably the greatest PF ever. Unfortunately, he just can't do that.

But its not just his offense. He's one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time in the playoffs. He is a huge mismatch. You saw it last game.....his ability to stretch the floor takes the other teams bigs away from the paint....this led to barea getting in the paint routinely.

And lastly, Dirk has been one of the best clutch players of all time. He makes game winners on good volume at near 40%. His best games have come in game 7's and elimination games.

You can't compare players just off offense vs offense and then defense vs defense.

I think you make many fair points. I just still don't see how Stockton should be above Dirk. Stockton played with one of the best players of all time his entire career. He only made 2 finals and never won the title. Stockton came up short a number of times in the playoffs......more than Dirk actually.

In terms of impact, level of play, and resume....I just don't see Stockton over Dirk.

I do see very good arguments for Pippen over Dirk. I just think Pippen is really tough to rank all time and I go with Dirk because I know what he's capable of as the best player on a team in the playoffs. Pippen is a bit more of a mystery.
I agree with everything you said. Especially the last part about pippen being a mystery. And in every debate I have with guys about pippen id be hardpressed to argue against that. But its the constant pippen wasn't clutch, he wasn't a leader, he couldnt score. Just a bunch of nonsense.

And honestly, id take stockton over magic too. Magic is more accomplished, but he was a horrible defender. If you ever get a chance, just watch magic in the 91 nba finals. Everybody goes gaga over his offensive exploits but noone ever mentions that his man john paxson shot a rediculously high percentage for the series. And that's cuz magic was a gamber, and terrible man defender. If he did a better job on pax, maybe the lakers win. Who knows. Unfortunately for stock/malone they were match against a far superior team.

I just put alot of value in 2 way players as oppose to players that are great at a few facets of basketball.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with everything you said. Especially the last part about pippen being a mystery. And in every debate I have with guys about pippen id be hardpressed to argue against that. But its the constant pippen wasn't clutch, he wasn't a leader, he couldnt score. Just a bunch of nonsense.

And honestly, id take stockton over magic too. Magic is more accomplished, but he was a horrible defender. If you ever get a chance, just watch magic in the 91 nba finals. Everybody goes gaga over his offensive exploits but noone ever mentions that his man john paxson shot a rediculously high percentage for the series. And that's cuz magic was a gamber, and terrible man defender. If he did a better job on pax, maybe the lakers win. Who knows. Unfortunately for stock/malone they were match against a far superior team.

I just put alot of value in 2 way players as oppose to players that are great at a few facets of basketball.


Totally agree with the bold. I love Pippen. He and Lebron are the two best all around players I've seen.....prime Grant Hill is up there as well.

I just disagree a little about how rank stockton and fault magic/dirk for their defense.

For me, its about total impact. I think Magic was a far superior player to stockton and simply impacted the game in a bigger way. Same with Dirk.

Stockton just didn't have that same ability to take over the way Magic and Dirk did.

I just don't like breaking players down like that....becuase if you stayed consistent, you'd have to take KG over Magic then. KG's defense is arguably top 10 all time. KG was a great rebounder and also a very good scorer and a great passer for a big man.

If you broke it down on just offense vs offense and defense vs defense and stayed consistent, based on your rankings...you'd have to take KG.

I just don't think that works. Its about impact overall and level of play. In my opinion, Magic was a far superior player to KG.

[97 bulls]

Totally agree with the bold. I love Pippen. He and Lebron are the two best all around players I've seen.....prime Grant Hill is up there as well.

I just disagree a little about how rank stockton and fault magic/dirk for their defense.

For me, its about total impact. I think Magic was a far superior player to stockton and simply impacted the game in a bigger way. Same with Dirk.

Stockton just didn't have that same ability to take over the way Magic and Dirk did.

I just don't like breaking players down like that....becuase if you stayed consistent, you'd have to take KG over Magic then. KG's defense is arguably top 10 all time. KG was a great rebounder and also a very good scorer and a great passer for a big man.

If you broke it down on just offense vs offense and defense vs defense and stayed consistent, based on your rankings...you'd have to take KG.

I just don't think that works. Its about impact overall and level of play. In my opinion, Magic was a far superior player to KG.
I see what your saying. The problem is KG and johnson play different positions. And even more, magic has played on some of the best teams ever. Teams perfectly catered to his strengths. Give garnett 2 bonafide hofers and he'd have accomplished alot more from a winning standpoint. But I would take garnett over dirk, even though dirk is a better offensive player. I try to look at both ends of the spectrum. For instance back to pippen. You said that you'd pick dirk cuz well never know if pippen could've lead his team to a championship (even though dirk hasn't either) lol. But flip the script. We do know that pippen can lead a bad team to overachieving. Magic has never had to do that. Stockton has never played with a team as talented as magic. That why i try to rank players as far as how talented they are. Not by their accomplishments. Its not dirks fault he wasnt able to play with a prime shaq. Its not pippens fault he never got a chance A LEGITTIMATE CHANCE to lead a team to a title.

I just try to take all things into account

[DMAVS41]

I see what your saying. The problem is KG and johnson play different positions. And even more, magic has played on some of the best teams ever. Teams perfectly catered to his strengths. Give garnett 2 bonafide hofers and he'd have accomplished alot more from a winning standpoint. But I would take garnett over dirk, even though dirk is a better offensive player. I try to look at both ends of the spectrum. For instance back to pippen. You said that you'd pick dirk cuz well never know if pippen could've lead his team to a championship (even though dirk hasn't either) lol. But flip the script. We do know that pippen can lead a bad team to overachieving. Magic has never had to do that. Stockton has never played with a team as talented as magic. That why i try to rank players as far as how talented they are. Not by their accomplishments. Its not dirks fault he wasnt able to play with a prime shaq. Its not pippens fault he never got a chance A LEGITTIMATE CHANCE to lead a team to a title.

I just try to take all things into account

I never said that actually. I never said I'd take Dirk because we'll never know if Pippen could lead a team to a title.

Hardly.

I said we know what Dirk is capable of doing as a number 1 option with quite frankly what has been average talent around him. Played with only 1 player to make an all nba team. Very few all stars. Never had the 2nd running mate. Never had a great coach...etc.

You got 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. Some of the best playoff numbers of all time. Great clutch play overall. 3 legendary game 7's of over 30 and 10. A road game 7 win with 37 and 15 against prime duncan and the Spurs as a huge underdog.

Stuff like that. Its very close for me though. I have both right around 25th all time.

I also have KG over Dirk all time.

I just don't think you can break down players with offense vs defense like you do because it leads to flawed conclusions. Magic was simply a better player than Stockton. If you watched them both play it was obvious. If you look at the stats....its obvious. I just don't see any argument for stockton over magic.....and that is why your reasoning is flawed. It gives you the wrong conclusion because you can't break a player down like that.

[moaz]

I agree with everything you said. Especially the last part about pippen being a mystery. And in every debate I have with guys about pippen id be hardpressed to argue against that. But its the constant pippen wasn't clutch, he wasn't a leader, he couldnt score. Just a bunch of nonsense.

And honestly, id take stockton over magic too. Magic is more accomplished, but he was a horrible defender. If you ever get a chance, just watch magic in the 91 nba finals. Everybody goes gaga over his offensive exploits but noone ever mentions that his man john paxson shot a rediculously high percentage for the series. And that's cuz magic was a gamber, and terrible man defender. If he did a better job on pax, maybe the lakers win. Who knows. Unfortunately for stock/malone they were match against a far superior team.

I just put alot of value in 2 way players as oppose to players that are great at a few facets of basketball.

I was happy to finally read a civilized discussion in ISH but u really ruined it with this.
I think that u never considered how the mere presence of some players on the court dictate opponent teams strategies.
With all the love for Scottie, other teams never had to adjust their game play trying to contain him as the did with magic an do do with dirk. As LA assistant coach Bill Simmons said: Dirk has been doing his thing for 13 years now and teams didn't find an answer for him. do u expect us to find it in 2 weeks?

[bizil]

Ah once again the argument for the great all around player vs. the great scorer. Both guys redefined their respective positions. Pip combined the point forward type skills and defense of a Havlicek with Dr. J type body and athletic ability. It was a great combination. Pip could run 1, 2, 3, and defend 1-2-3-and even some fours. But the problem with Pip is he didn't have the clutch, takeover, great alpha dog scoring ability. The kind that can overcome great defense. The kind that can takeover a game when needed. The only stat that guarantees a W in Bball is points. So the guys who can put the ball in the hole the best HAVE to be seen in a certain light. Plus many of those great scorers have Pip's floor game and defense or damn close. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Prime GHill, Prime Penny, Prime T-Mac had great floor games and had very good to great defense. But they also had that takeover, put the team on its back scoring ability. This type of player trumps a guy like Pip ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

And a stud scorer like Dirk supercedes Pippen to me as well. I would take Pip over certain very good-great scorers. But not a guy like Dirk. He's so sick at scoring I would rather build around Dirk than Pip. Guys like Nique, King, Durant, Melo, etc. I see in the same light. I feel I could find a poor man's Pip in guys like Iggy, Deng, etc. But Pip's individual accolades, team accolades, longevity being great, and redefining a position have him over Dirk right now on a GOAT list. But Dirk can catch him eventually and between the two I would rather have Dirk. But a greatest of all time list factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact along with the talent.

[97 bulls]

I was happy to finally read a civilized discussion in ISH but u really ruined it with this.
I think that u never considered how the mere presence of some players on the court dictate opponent teams strategies.
With all the love for Scottie, other teams never had to adjust their game play trying to contain him as the did with magic an do do with dirk. As LA assistant coach Bill Simmons said: Dirk has been doing his thing for 13 years now and teams didn't find an answer for him. do u expect us to find it in 2 weeks?
Im sorry moaz. I know that me saying id take john stockton over magic is blasphemy. I just don't see why he couldn't produce roughly the same results if he had that much firepower to work with. And ran that style of offense. Then you facotor in that money jumpshot that stockton had and his defense and grimy style of play. I just think stockton brought more to the table. I mean stockton is everythiing you want out of a PG.

And I understand your disagreement with my opinion. Just understand that im not trolling. I really feel stockton brings more to the table.

[97 bulls]

Ah once again the argument for the great all around player vs. the great scorer. Both guys redefined their respective positions. Pip combined the point forward type skills and defense of a Havlicek with Dr. J type body and athletic ability. It was a great combination. Pip could run 1, 2, 3, and defend 1-2-3-and even some fours. But the problem with Pip is he didn't have the clutch, takeover, great alpha dog scoring ability. The kind that can overcome great defense. The kind that can takeover a game when needed. The only stat that guarantees a W in Bball is points. So the guys who can put the ball in the hole the best HAVE to be seen in a certain light. Plus many of those great scorers have Pip's floor game and defense or damn close. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Prime GHill, Prime Penny, Prime T-Mac had great floor games and had very good to great defense. But they also had that takeover, put the team on its back scoring ability. This type of player trumps a guy like Pip ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

And a stud scorer like Dirk supercedes Pippen to me as well. I would take Pip over certain very good-great scorers. But not a guy like Dirk. He's so sick at scoring I would rather build around Dirk than Pip. Guys like Nique, King, Durant, Melo, etc. I see in the same light. I feel I could find a poor man's Pip in guys like Iggy, Deng, etc. But Pip's individual accolades, team accolades, longevity being great, and redefining a position have him over Dirk right now on a GOAT list. But Dirk can catch him eventually and between the two I would rather have Dirk. But a greatest of all time list factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact along with the talent.
Ahhh, I see you've turned this into an offensr vs defense debate. Im a firm believer that defense is just as important as offense. In fact, defense is more important because its more consistant. In fact, I can't think of any facet in which offense is more important. I mean, you said the all you must do is outscore your opponant. Well if you came in with that attitude you'd surly loose. Cuz if you concentrate on scoring and im concentrating on both....you do the math.

And again, how can you say pippens can't take over games offensively? It was pippen that took over game 5 of the 91 finals that gave the bulls their first championship. I bellieve he had 31 pts. And it was pippen that took on the defensive assignment of sticking magic when jordan got into foul trouble. It was pippen that lead the bulls back from being down 15 pts in the 4th quarter of game 6. It was pippen that shut down mark jackson during thae bulls pacers series in 98. He basically shut down that whole offense with what he did to jackson. Who might I add is 3rd all-time in assists. And we know what he did when jordan left in 94. So don't come in here with that nonsense that pippen wasn't clutch.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille Oneal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Kobe Bryant
14. John Havlicek
15. Bob Pettit
16. Moses Malone
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Lebron James
22. Scottie Pippen
23. Bob Cousy
24. David Robinson
25. George Mikan
26. Jason Kidd
27. kevin garnett
28. Dirk Nowitzki
29. George Gervin
30. Dwyane Wade
That's one ****ed up list right there. Kobe is a legit top 10 right now, and no way is Shaq higher than Magic and Bird. I have Kareem past Wilt. And Shaq, Kobe and Tim all leapfrog Oscar.
:facepalm

Dirk is a better shooter, Pippen is a better all around player than Dirk though.

[t-rex]

http://www.nba.com/media/act_scottie_pippen.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/allstar2006/nowitzki_300_060125.jpg

Who do you have ranked higher?



Dirk and its not close. Norwitzki is one title away from being listed on the 1st tier of all time NBA greats.

I rank Pippen on the second tier of NBA greats. He is on the same page as people like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Alex English etc. Currently Norwitzki is on this page two. But if he gets a championship he moves up to the first tier. And thus is ahead of Pippen.


If I were staring a team today, I would take Norwitzki over Pippen.

[t-rex]

That's one ****ed up list right there. Kobe is a legit top 10 right now, and no way is Shaq higher than Magic and Bird. I have Kareem past Wilt. And Shaq, Kobe and Tim all leapfrog Oscar.
:facepalm

Dirk is a better shooter, Pippen is a better all around player than Dirk though.


The one thing that really hurts Oscar Robertson is that he only has 1 championship. And on that team he was clearly the second option as it was Jabbar's team all the way.

Kareem is the most underrated all time great player in NBA history.

[bizil]

Ahhh, I see you've turned this into an offensr vs defense debate. Im a firm believer that defense is just as important as offense. In fact, defense is more important because its more consistant. In fact, I can't think of any facet in which offense is more important. I mean, you said the all you must do is outscore your opponant. Well if you came in with that attitude you'd surly loose. Cuz if you concentrate on scoring and im concentrating on both....you do the math.

And again, how can you say pippens can't take over games offensively? It was pippen that took over game 5 of the 91 finals that gave the bulls their first championship. I bellieve he had 31 pts. And it was pippen that took on the defensive assignment of sticking magic when jordan got into foul trouble. It was pippen that lead the bulls back from being down 15 pts in the 4th quarter of game 6. It was pippen that shut down mark jackson during thae bulls pacers series in 98. He basically shut down that whole offense with what he did to jackson. Who might I add is 3rd all-time in assists. And we know what he did when jordan left in 94. So don't come in here with that nonsense that pippen wasn't clutch.


The bottom the line is whoever has the most points in bball wins the game. What other stat in bball 100 PERCENT GUARANTEES A WIN. None! I'm not saying that other facets don't matter. What I said was supreme No.1 option scorers are special. Look at the top 10 players of all time. They all have this in common except for Russell. Even Magic as a PG showed the ability to put a team on his back in the clutch and carry the scoring load. Isiah and of course Big O show this as well.

Guys like Pip all around wise are some of the very best players of all time. But there are TOO MANY players who are great all around players AND dominant scorers. Pip has done some clutch things. But he's not known for consistently putting a team on his back. Or taking over a game scoring in big moments. If he was, the Bulls team in '94 would have gone further. That was Pip's time to show what he could do as the man. He was a vet and was around MJ to learn. That team needed him to assume more of an alpha dog role scoring. If u replace MJ with Pip on that team it wouldn't have came to the Bulls complaining about that bogus call against the Knicks. MJ woulda took the Bulls to the Finals against the Rockets. Or if anything past the Knicks. Cause MJ and the true alpha dogs will a team. Pip CAN'T will a team the way a MJ, Kobe, Wade, Dirk etc. can. For as much shit as Bron catches, he's shown more ability to put a team on his back than Pip ever has. The year he took the Cavs to the finals proved that. SO U DON'T COME IN HERE WIT THAT NONSENSE SAYING PIP IS ON THE LEVEL OF THE TRUE ALPHA DOGS! Too many greats who have all around game like Pip or close that can ALSO TAKE OVER A GAME SCORING AND CLUTCH:

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Bron
Havlicek
Drexler
Big O
Wade
Prime G Hill
Prime Penny
Prime TMac
Rick Barry

Even smaller PG's like Zeke, Tiny, Nash, and even a Tim Hardaway and KJ showed these type of instincts. PG's like D-Will, Frazier, Payton, and now a D-Rose have as well. They all proved they could take over a game consistently if need be scoring the pill. I'm not debating Pip isn't great. But the bottom line is he NEVER showed that true alpha dog takeover ability enough. I will take Pip over some guys who were great scorers. But not over Dirk.

[PP34Deuce]

History says u take the 7 footer who can give you 27-30ppg with 9-10 rebounds and clutch.

[bizil]

History says u take the 7 footer who can give you 27-30ppg with 9-10 rebounds and clutch.

Exactly right! Dirk is such a unique breed that I would rather have Dirk. The beauty of Pip is his versatility and defense. But a guy like MJ has that and supreme takeover scoring ability. Kobe, Bron, Wade, etc. have this as well. Thing is that Pip is a SF. So he's compared to many guys who are some of the greatest scorers of all time. And some of those guys are all time great all around players as well. Thus the case of a point forward type who DOESN'T have the supreme takeover ability like other point forward types such as Bron, Bird, Barry, Havlicek, or even a Marques Johnson. Even when GHill was going good they said he was the next Pip. But I viewed GHill as a mix between Dr. J and Pip. He had the all around Pip shit combined with the stud athlete, takeover scoring ability of Doc. To sum it up saying Pip being better than Dirk is like saying Iggy is better than Kevin Durant. No way in hell is that correct. Give me stud scorers like Durant and Dirk over Iggy or Pip all day long.

[97 bulls]

The bottom the line is whoever has the most points in bball wins the game. What other stat in bball 100 PERCENT GUARANTEES A WIN. None! I'm not saying that other facets don't matter. What I said was supreme No.1 option scorers are special. Look at the top 10 players of all time. They all have this in common except for Russell. Even Magic as a PG showed the ability to put a team on his back in the clutch and carry the scoring load. Isiah and of course Big O show this as well.

Guys like Pip all around wise are some of the very best players of all time. But there are TOO MANY players who are great all around players AND dominant scorers. Pip has done some clutch things. But he's not known for consistently putting a team on his back. Or taking over a game scoring in big moments. If he was, the Bulls team in '94 would have gone further. That was Pip's time to show what he could do as the man. He was a vet and was around MJ to learn. That team needed him to assume more of an alpha dog role scoring. If u replace MJ with Pip on that team it wouldn't have came to the Bulls complaining about that bogus call against the Knicks. MJ woulda took the Bulls to the Finals against the Rockets. Or if anything past the Knicks. Cause MJ and the true alpha dogs will a team. Pip CAN'T will a team the way a MJ, Kobe, Wade, Dirk etc. can. For as much shit as Bron catches, he's shown more ability to put a team on his back than Pip ever has. The year he took the Cavs to the finals proved that. SO U DON'T COME IN HERE WIT THAT NONSENSE SAYING PIP IS ON THE LEVEL OF THE TRUE ALPHA DOGS! Too many greats who have all around game like Pip or close that can ALSO TAKE OVER A GAME SCORING AND CLUTCH:

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Bron
Havlicek
Drexler
Big O
Wade
Prime G Hill
Prime Penny
Prime TMac
Rick Barry

Even smaller PG's like Zeke, Tiny, Nash, and even a Tim Hardaway and KJ showed these type of instincts. PG's like D-Will, Frazier, Payton, and now a D-Rose have as well. They all proved they could take over a game consistently if need be scoring the pill. I'm not debating Pip isn't great. But the bottom line is he NEVER showed that true alpha dog takeover ability enough. I will take Pip over some guys who were great scorers. But not over Dirk.
Dude, I can tell you don't know a damn thing about sports. You say the object is to outscore your opponant, but I could spin it and say keep your opponant from outscoring you. Both are important. And I gave you about 5 exmples of pippen taking over games. What more do you want? Pippen has had more legendary games than alot of the guys you mentioned. And knocking pippen cuz he didn't win in 94 is flat out dumb. Show me another guy in a similar situation that "willed" his team to a championship. Better yet, pick any player you want and give me at leat 8 legendary career defining games. And I say 8 cuz you feel these guys are far and away better. And im not talking about statistical big point games in which the said player scored 40 points in a blowout. Im talking about a player comming through when the chips are down.

I guarantee you can't do it.

[97 bulls]

Exactly right! Dirk is such a unique breed that I would rather have Dirk. The beauty of Pip is his versatility and defense. But a guy like MJ has that and supreme takeover scoring ability. Kobe, Bron, Wade, etc. have this as well. Thing is that Pip is a SF. So he's compared to many guys who are some of the greatest scorers of all time. And some of those guys are all time great all around players as well. Thus the case of a point forward type who DOESN'T have the supreme takeover ability like other point forward types such as Bron, Bird, Barry, Havlicek, or even a Marques Johnson. Even when GHill was going good they said he was the next Pip. But I viewed GHill as a mix between Dr. J and Pip. He had the all around Pip shit combined with the stud athlete, takeover scoring ability of Doc. To sum it up saying Pip being better than Dirk is like saying Iggy is better than Kevin Durant. No way in hell is that correct. Give me stud scorers like Durant and Dirk over Iggy or Pip all day long.
Like I said earlier. I gave you multiple instances of pippen willing the bulls to a victory. What more do you want? Not to mention alot of the players you mentioned don't have a championship. Why not?

[DMAVS41]

LOL at people acting like Dirk is clearly better.

I love Dirk, but Pippen was a great player and sacrificed a lot for his team.

Pippen is hard to rank because he never really had a real chance as the number 1 guy.

But its very close.

[97 bulls]

History says u take the 7 footer who can give you 27-30ppg with 9-10 rebounds and clutch.
Portlands done that twice, how's that worked out for them? Either way, nowitzki is a jumpshooting 7 footer.

[97 bulls]

LOL at people acting like Dirk is clearly better.

I love Dirk, but Pippen was a great player and sacrificed a lot for his team.

Pippen is hard to rank because he never really had a real chance as the number 1 guy.

But its very close.
These guys don't know what they're talking about. Im hearing stupid things like pippen wasn't clutch and couldn't win a championship. Then mention guys like james, barkley, etc as examples. And forget the fact that I've gave evidence of pippen taking over games.

[bizil]

Like I said earlier. I gave you multiple instances of pippen willing the bulls to a victory. What more do you want? Not to mention alot of the players you mentioned don't have a championship. Why not?

Pip played with MJ the greatest of all time. And Pip was a Robin to MJ. It wasn't a Batman-Superman combo. Plus many guys didn't have the luxury on playing great teams consistently. And if they did they ran into Mike and lost in the finals. It doesn't take away from the fact that they were great players. Put Barkley, Malone, or Nique on the Bulls and take Pip out. They woulda won rings on the Bulls team. When u are playing alongside Mike what great player WOULDN'T have won a ring. MJ never, ever, ever played with another alpha dog type guy. And u are the idiot and dont know shit about sports. Wanna know why? Cause the object of any sport is who has the most points, runs, goals, etc. That's cut and dry. I never said D doesn't matter. But we all know great offense beats great defense. Im talking Pip willing the Bulls through clutch shots and takeover scoring ability. And I'm talking so great at to where u become ICONIC at it. Pip is iconic for versatility and D. Not takeover alpha dog scoring ability in the clutch.

If Pip was so great why is it that Kukoc was taking the last shot when Pip whined like a *****. The play was designed for Toni to take the last shot. Ha Ha! I know plenty about sports. Whoever has the most points in a bball game wins it point blank. I'm not saying u go about it without other factors. But some teams may be small. Or don't have great defenders. So they best alternative might be to run up the points.

[bizil]

These guys don't know what they're talking about. Im hearing stupid things like pippen wasn't clutch and couldn't win a championship. Then mention guys like james, barkley, etc as examples. And forget the fact that I've gave evidence of pippen taking over games.

Once again I never said Pip didn't have his moments. But not like a Bron or Barkley. Pip isn't on Barkley or Bron's level point blank. In a shot for shot duel in the playoffs where every basket is precious u mean to tell me u want Pip battling Bird over a Nique or Bernard King? Or if your team is down 20 in a playoff game u mean to tell me u want Pip over Isiah willing the team through scoring? Pip is not on those levels whatsover. Get off Pip's dick and be happy he's a great point forward type of player who is a HOFer. And Bron is taking the point forward shit to levels PIP COULD NEVER DREAM OF!

[bizil]

LOL at people acting like Dirk is clearly better.

I love Dirk, but Pippen was a great player and sacrificed a lot for his team.

Pippen is hard to rank because he never really had a real chance as the number 1 guy.

But its very close.

Pip had that chance in '94 and didn't do what needed to be done in that situation. The standard for the Bulls were rings. That's why they begged MJ back! LMAO Cause Pip wasn't the alpha dog they needed. He was still an All-Star and a top player in the L. But if u put MJ in Pip's place on that team, you had Kukoc to be a point forward type of player. They would miss Pip's D, but u can always put MJ on the best perimeter guy. And MJ woulda took that team farther than Pip did. A Bron, Wade, or Kobe woulda took that team farther as well. Pip went to Houston off a Bulls title and was the third banana to Barkley and Dream. Drexler was CLEARLY better in that situation that Pip was. Cause Clyde could be third option guy who had Batman instincts. Pip never had the Batman instincts. He's a Robin. And Robin is a legend. But Robin ain't Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, etc.

[97 bulls]

You knocked pippen cuz he didn't win in 94. Why excuse guys that you feel are better than him? Your being hypocritical. You said he wasnt as clutch and couldn't will teams. Well pick a player and give me mutiple examples of them doing what it takes to be considered clutch. Come on. I double dare you

[Notorious D.M.C]

tough questions...I would rather build around Dirk but at the same time Pippen has accomplished more...but then again he had Jordan. I don't know :hammerhead:

[bizil]

You knocked pippen cuz he didn't win in 94. Why excuse guys that you feel are better than him? Your being hypocritical. You said he wasnt as clutch and couldn't will teams. Well pick a player and give me mutiple examples of them doing what it takes to be considered clutch. Come on. I double dare you

When I say clutch I'm talking about willing his team through putting the ball in the hole. Pip simply isn't on the level of a Reggie Miller for example. Both games in MSG is a prime example. The three against the Bulls in the playoffs. There are three clear examples in big time moments. Pip is not on Miller's level when it comes to OFFENSIVE, CLUTCH TAKEOVER SHIT! I knocked Pip cause he was in the role to be the man without MJ. He did very good, but that team needed more scoring punch. Basic math tells u that. MJ was averaging 30 points and up those years. Those teams didn't have a plethora of elite scoring threats. So MJ put the team on his back cause HE HAD TO. Pip didn't do that enough for that 94 Bulls team to succeed.

[bizil]

tough questions...I would rather build around Dirk but at the same time Pippen has accomplished more...but then again he had Jordan. I don't know :hammerhead:

That's a great way to look at it. I catch all this heat cause I said I would rather have Dirk than Pip. But on a GOAT list, Pip is higher up than Dirk. Cause Pip revolutionized the SF position. And made many All Star Games, All NBA Teams, All D teams. Plus he has six rings. That legacy right there proved Pip is great. But for me I prefer guys who had Pip's all around excellence AND alpha dog takeover scoring ability. And yes I would rather have guys like Dirk, Durant, Nique, and Bernard King over Pip. But I concede Pip's versatility and D make him unique. Cause if your team is need of a PG, SG, SF u can always take Pip. But when building a team I'm picking a Dirk over Pip.

[97 bulls]

That's a great way to look at it. I catch all this heat cause I said I would rather have Dirk than Pip. But on a GOAT list, Pip is higher up than Dirk. Cause Pip revolutionized the SF position. And made many All Star Games, All NBA Teams, All D teams. Plus he has six rings. That legacy right there proved Pip is great. But for me I prefer guys who had Pip's all around excellence AND alpha dog takeover scoring ability. And yes I would rather have guys like Dirk, Durant, Nique, and Bernard King over Pip. But I concede Pip's versatility and D make him unique. Cause if your team is need of a PG, SG, SF u can always take Pip. But when building a team I'm picking a Dirk over Pip.
This has nothing to do with your choice. Dirk is a flatout beast. Ill never have a problem with a persons choice. But you are being hypocritical. Almost everybody you named has had 5 to 15 years to win and honestly did no better than pippen in his one season that jordan left. So how did they take over these games if they NEVER WON? That's the reason they play. I mean, does everybody need jordan to win a championship? And if everybody needs jordan to take over the games for them, what's the difference from pippen?

And seeing as how your so infatuated with scoring, just think what pippen could've done offensively if he didn't have to literraly do everything at a high level? People honestly don't understand how much energy it takes to do what pippen did. Even the guys you mentioned could never score 30 and grab 8 rebounds, set up teammates, to get 8 asiists, block shots, play the pasing lanes, play their man at a high level, full court press. And still take over games offensively. That's not human bizel. Noone can do that. The only person that was close was jordan. You ever notice how when guy need to take on big defensive assignments, they score only like 15 points? And im talking about guys like bryant, wade, james all the big scorers you've refered to. And honestly, they don't do nearly as well as pippen when he assumes the same position.

All im saying is, as much as you minimize what pippen did in 94, he honestly did better than most of the guys you mentioned.

[DMAVS41]

This has nothing to do with your choice. Dirk is a flatout beast. Ill never have a problem with a persons choice. But you are being hypocritical. Almost everybody you named has had 5 to 15 years to win and honestly did no better than pippen in his one season that jordan left. So how did they take over these games if they NEVER WON? That's the reason they play. I mean, does everybody need jordan to win a championship? And if everybody needs jordan to take over the games for them, what's the difference from pippen?

And seeing as how your so infatuated with scoring, just think what pippen could've done offensively if he didn't have to literraly do everything at a high level? People honestly don't understand how much energy it takes to do what pippen did. Even the guys you mentioned could never score 30 and grab 8 rebounds, set up teammates, to get 8 asiists, block shots, play the pasing lanes, play their man at a high level, full court press. And still take over games offensively. That's not human bizel. Noone can do that. The only person that was close was jordan. You ever notice how when guy need to take on big defensive assignments, they score only like 15 points? And im talking about guys like bryant, wade, james all the big scorers you've refered to. And honestly, they don't do nearly as well as pippen when he assumes the same position.

All im saying is, as much as you minimize what pippen did in 94, he honestly did better than most of the guys you mentioned.

Good post. I hear people mentioning Barkley and Malone in terms of winning. What? Those guys had a number of chances to win. In fact, both actually lost to a team Pippen was on in the Finals.

What did Pippen do in the finals in 93 by the way?

Something like 21 points 10 boards 8 assists and elite defense. Sorry, only a few guys in NBA history can fill a stat sheet like that and play all time great defense.

For those of you saying Pippen couldn't lead a team to a title. Total BS. Total ****ing BS.

Look what Pippen did in 94. He put up 23/8/5 for starters....but he didn't have a great team. Does anyone here really think Pippen couldn't have made the Finals and had a good shot to win that year just by adding a guy like Mitch Richmond to that team? That team had Pete Myers playing the 2 guard. You put an all-star 2 guard on that team and it had a chance to win the title for sure.

You give Pippen an all-nba player and a stacked roster and he's winning the title in 94.

People need to learn that you win and lose as a team.

Dirk is the same way. If Dirk had played his entire career with a legit 2nd option guy....like top 15 player in the league...like a Paul Pierce or a prime Manu. He would have won multiple titles.

The only reason I take Dirk over Pippen has nothing to do with knocking Pippen. Its because Dirk is truly one of the best number 1 options in NBA history. Look at what he's done with his teams. Its downright amazing. His level of play in the playoffs is probably top 15 all time. He's super clutch not only late in games, but in elimination games as well.

Think about what he's done.

26 points 11 boards 3 assists on 58% True Shooting for his career in the playoffs. He's 33 and playing almost as good as he did in his prime/peak. This has now been 11 straight years of elite play from Dirk. Simply remarkable.

If he ever had the luxury of playing with all time greats like Shaq did with Kobe and Wade....or Bird did or Magic did....or even MJ did.....he'd be talked about as one of the truly best (top 15 players) of all time.

Who knows, if he continues to play at this level a few more years....he might get there anyway. Dirk is 33....and he's averaging:

28 points 9 boards 3 assists on 49%fg 58%3 90% ft.....thats just insane. And he's been the best 4th qtr player in these playoffs as well.

Not a knock on Pippen at all. Dirk is just insanely good. I hope people finally start to realize that this is nothing new with Dirk. He's been this good or better for about a decade now.

[97 bulls]

I will acknowledge that dirk is looking alot like bird out there. I really can't think of anybody in the league that's tall enough and athletics enough to guard him. Maybe kirelinko? He's shredding all the lakers bigs.

[DMAVS41]

I will acknowledge that dirk is looking alot like bird out there. I really can't think of anybody in the league that's tall enough and athletics enough to guard him. Maybe kirelinko? He's shredding all the lakers bigs.

The best guys to guard Dirk are guys like Udonis Haslem. A tough smart defender that can body Dirk and have the quickness to stay in front.

Joel Anthony would be another really tough defender for Dirk. But right now, not much you can do when a guy is shooting 49/58/90 and scoring 28 a game.

Thats just all time great stuff.

[97 bulls]

The best guys to guard Dirk are guys like Udonis Haslem. A tough smart defender that can body Dirk and have the quickness to stay in front.

Joel Anthony would be another really tough defender for Dirk. But right now, not much you can do when a guy is shooting 49/58/90 and scoring 28 a game.

Thats just all time great stuff.
Dirk would just shoot right over both of them. Same way he doing odom. And he'd go right around anthony. Too bad butler isn't there.