How Exactly Do You Stat Pad?

[Simple Jack]

Hearing all this talk about stat-padding got me thinking.

Beside playing heavy minutes, when the game is out of reach, how exactly do you stat pad?

If you are making passes to teammates that shoot a career high because of your passing ability; how is this stat-padding?

If you are "dribbling the whole shotclock and taking a shot off an iso"; wouldn't the effectiveness of this play be seen somewhere? Either the efficiency of your teams offense as a whole? Your own personal efficiency?

Not sure how you can stat-pad grabbing rebounds unless you take them out of your teammates hands or give up a fast break opportunity to grab one; but for the most part, hustling/getting in good position for rebounds helps your team a lot more than it hurts it.

Lastly, defensively? How does one stat pad defensively? Constantly playing passing lanes rather than playing your man? Letting someone beat you off the dribble in order to make a play after? These would be painfully obvious if done on a consistent basis.

Clearly this is in reference to LeBron James and the common criticism of him "stat padding". Since 08, his teams have been top 10 in both defense and offense. Plenty of players have enjoyed career high %'s while playing with LeBron, no doubt due to the attention he draws on offense. We aren't talking Ricky Davis miss a shot at your own hoop to rebound and get a triple double here; we are talking about a first-team all NBA player who took teams we'd laugh at, to 60+ wins and a finals appearance.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Its like choking, how do you diferentiate it from just missing?

You just know it.

[ballerz]

alot of times rondo stat pads like not finishing on the fastbreak to get an easy assist.

[Crystallas]

Stat padding can get exaggerated, but it does happen. The players who stat pad, do it a few times a game, not entirely as their style of play.

I do agree though. Sometimes you would think of some forms of stat padding as incentives to help more than actually trying to get your stats up.

[thomaspynchon]

pretty easy. you are down 15 with a minute to go, and go for 3 uncontested dunks when you know it's game over

[Simple Jack]

Its like choking, how do you diferentiate it from just missing?

You just know it.

I've seen it get thrown around here way too often for it to just be a "you just know it" situation.

Another question to consider: What's worse, "going for stats" and actually performing effectively or "going for the win" and playing poorly?

See, I'm not concerned with aesthetics and how pleasing someone's basketball skills are to the eye when I evaluate talent and individual play. I'm concerned with how well they play and how effective they are. A lot of you can't seem to grasp this concept and it's a big part of the reason guys like Tim Duncan don't get the respect they deserve from casual fans.

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MezCclCSjNw

there was a more hilarious one this season, dont remember the player...

[Killbot]

What I don't get is people arguing Rondo's case of stat padding. Yes, he's aiming for assists, but if he scored, the points will show up on the stat sheet anyway. And since everyone seems to look at Points rather than assists, I don't see what's all the fuss besides not being aggressive.

And with points you get 2 + 1-1 FG shooting presented in the stat sheets vs 1 under the AST stat sheet.

[Simple Jack]

pretty easy. you are down 15 with a minute to go, and go for 3 uncontested dunks when you know it's game over

I referred to this in the first post. Doing things like that are very obvious. I'm wondering though, how exactly do you stat pad, on a consistent basis, in close games, with the end result either being a win or your team playing on a higher level than it would without you.

[Fatal9]

You pull a Wilt Chamberlain.

IE:

- fail to deliver when game is on the line, get most of your stats in the garbage minutes when team is down big (see '62 series vs. Celtics)
- you play 48 minutes a game, even in blowouts where team is up/down 25+ pts just to hit your specific statistical targets

Players don't usually get this opportunity anymore, but Wilt is the golden standard when it comes to this.

[roffie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48 << ANDRAY BLATCHE

[Christofire]

stealing rebounds from your big men, is the most coomin occurence regards to stat padding(LeBron's favorite)

Hogging against the bench unit of the opposing team(another one of james favorites)

[Christofire]

stealing rebounds from your big men, is the most coomin occurence regards to stat padding(LeBron's favorite)

Hogging against the bench unit of the opposing team(another one of james favorites)

[knightfall88]

If you are "dribbling the whole shotclock and taking a shot off an iso"; wouldn't the effectiveness of this play be seen somewhere? Either the efficiency of your teams offense as a whole? Your own personal efficiency?

Not sure how you can stat-pad grabbing rebounds unless you take them out of your teammates hands or give up a fast break opportunity to grab one; but for the most part, hustling/getting in good position for rebounds helps your team a lot more than it hurts it.

Lastly, defensively? How does one stat pad defensively? Constantly playing passing lanes rather than playing your man? Letting someone beat you off the dribble in order to make a play after? These would be painfully obvious if done on a consistent basis.



Yes you just answered your own question - that is exactly it.

Let me add a few more. Not taking shots to save FG% even though your team is getting blown out. You must go out shooting if you are the best scorer on the team.

Lebron barely rebounds offensively, so yes he is taking rebounds from team mates and not closing out his man by getting rebounds instead - see Cleveland vs Orlando in 2009 - Turk and Lewis 3pters all day long since he wanted to stat pad rebounds

Holding the ball and iso and only taking layups make sure everyone who is open is always on the perimeter and he passes up when he doesnt want to force a layup. Makes every big man useless e.g. Bosh, Jamison. Oh then you can blame them for not making jumpshots after he loses the game.

[Christofire]

Yes you just answered your own question - that is exactly it.

Let me add a few more. Not taking shots to save FG% even though your team is getting blown out. You must go out shooting if you are the best scorer on the team.

Lebron barely rebounds offensively, so yes he is taking rebounds from team mates and not closing out his man by getting rebounds instead - see Cleveland vs Orlando in 2009 - Turk and Lewis 3pters all day long since he wanted to stat pad rebounds

Holding the ball and iso and only taking layups make sure everyone who is open is always on the perimeter and he passes up when he doesnt want to force a layup. Makes every big man useless e.g. Bosh, Jamison. Oh then you can blame them for not making jumpshots after he loses the game.


so true...i've lost count of all the times i've seen leBron fly in to steal an easy board that his big could've gotten. It got so bad in cleveland that guys like Varejo and Z would simply clear out for james to get the rebound. Also i hate guys that play their FG%....Who gives a shit, as the best player their are certain shots you have to take...leBron james is the king of deferring especially when he see a few of his shots not go down.

[dee-rose]

Missing tip ins for more rebounds.:lol

[Simple Jack]

You pull a Wilt Chamberlain.

IE:

- fail to deliver when game is on the line, get most of your stats in the garbage minutes when team is down big (see '62 series vs. Celtics)
- you play 48 minutes a game, even in blowouts where team is up/down 25+ pts just to hit your specific statistical targets

Players don't usually get this opportunity anymore, but Wilt is the golden standard when it comes to this.

This is the only situation I can see fit to label someone a stat-padder. When he plays heavy minutes, with the game out of reach.

[Simple Jack]

so true...i've lost count of all the times i've seen leBron fly in to steal an easy board that his big could've gotten. It got so bad in cleveland that guys like Varejo and Z would simply clear out for james to get the rebound. Also i hate guys that play their FG%....Who gives a shit, as the best player their are certain shots you have to take...leBron james is the king of deferring especially when he see a few of his shots not go down.

So you'd rather a player continue to shoot when he's not feeling it instead of getting others involved and contributing in other ways?

On top of that, what was the rebounding differential when LeBron was out of games the past few years. You would expect Anderson to have grabbed like 13 boards a game this year without the rebound stealer LeBron in his way, no?

[DRose1899]

this guy know the answer

http://images.indyposted.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Kevin-Love-Minnesota-Timberwolves.jpg

[knightfall88]

So you'd rather a player continue to shoot when he's not feeling it instead of getting others involved and contributing in other ways?



You don't get players involved if you are not a threat. Giving players the ball late in the shot clock out in perimeter with nothing to do with it but shoot is not getting them involved.

Lets criticise Kobe for game7 last year. He shot bad at the start but he kept shooting so the celtics had to keep guarding him anyways and as a result, freed up the bigs and other players to do their thing. So what if he just decided to stop shooting since it wasnt his night? Well then you would have a game similar to Lebron quitting against the Celtics.

[Simple Jack]

You don't get players involved if you are not a threat. Giving players the ball late in the shot clock out in perimeter with nothing to do with it but shoot is not getting them involved.

Lets criticise Kobe for game7 last year. He shot bad at the start but he kept shooting so the celtics had to keep guarding him anyways and as a result, freed up the bigs and other players to do their thing. So what if he just decided to stop shooting since it wasnt his night? Well then you would have a game similar to Lebron quitting against the Celtics.

Enough with the cliches. The holding the ball until the end of the shotclock crap is extremely exaggerated. It's also a miracle that he can get those guys to all shoot career highs despite getting the ball, surprisingly, with little to no time left on the clock for a proper set shot.

?? Not shooting doesn't imply not being guarded. Is this a joke?

LeBron could literally not take a single shot all game and drive and dish every play. You're a complete idiot if you think he doesn't draw at least 2 defenders in the paint each time.

Now we're going to act like Kobe's 6/24 game was actually great. :hammerhead:

[Christofire]

So you'd rather a player continue to shoot when he's not feeling it instead of getting others involved and contributing in other ways?

On top of that, what was the rebounding differential when LeBron was out of games the past few years. You would expect Anderson to have grabbed like 13 boards a game this year without the rebound stealer LeBron in his way, no?


there's a difference between getting others involved and deferring. no matter how many shots you miss as the best player you dont pass up on makeable looks at the rim, or opportunities to score for the sake of saving you efficiency. Noone gives a shit about efficiency, we dont want the best player on our team playing like a coward because he's afraid he;ll miss another shot. What good is efficiency in a losing effort?..... What's wrong with you stat heads. efficiency is not worth your best player taking his foot of the Gas....efficiency only matter if you've taken the shots you should be taking as the best player. It doesnt mean a thing if you passed up good looks or played tentatively and deferred alot.

[Sarcastic]

You pull a Wilt Chamberlain.

IE:

- fail to deliver when game is on the line, get most of your stats in the garbage minutes when team is down big (see '62 series vs. Celtics)
- you play 48 minutes a game, even in blowouts where team is up/down 25+ pts just to hit your specific statistical targets

Players don't usually get this opportunity anymore, but Wilt is the golden standard when it comes to this.

:facepalm

[Simple Jack]

there's a difference between getting others involved and deferring. no matter how many shots you miss as the best player you dont pass up on makeable looks at the rim, or opportunities to score for the sake of saving you efficiency. Noone give a shit about efficiency, we dont want the best player on our team playing like a coward because he's afraid he;ll miss another shot. What good is efficiency in a losing effort?..... What wrong with you stat heads. efficiency is not worth your best player taking his foot of the Gas....efficiency only matter if you taken the shots you should be taking as the best player. It doesnt mean a thing if you passed up played tentatively and deferred alot.

So in plain terms, you want a guy to continue taking tough, contested fadeaway jumpers, rather than looking to pass and create offense for the rest of his team. Gotcha.

Continuing to take bad shots isn't keeping your foot on the gas; it's being stupid, and well, continuing to take bad shots.

Every play has a handful of games where they played, what we would call, tentatively. Jordan had one of them vs the Pistons, Kobe vs the Suns, and LeBron vs Boston.

[Christofire]

So in plain terms, you want a guy to continue taking tough, contested fadeaway jumpers, rather than looking to pass and create offense for the rest of his team. Gotcha.

Continuing to take bad shots isn't keeping your foot on the gas; it's being stupid, and well, continuing to take bad shots.

Every play has a handful of games where they played, what we would call, tentatively. Jordan had one of them vs the Pistons, Kobe vs the Suns, and LeBron vs Boston.


no i want him to play the way he would play had he been making his shots.
Do you think Jordan ever thought about his last shot?...Do you think Kobe thinks about his last sho?, Wade?, Rose? Durant?.....You're the best player, be it, We dont expect our best player to never have a bad game, but when he's having a bad game we atleast expect consistency in his approach to the game whther he is having a good or bad game.

[Simple Jack]

no i want him to play the way he would play had he been making his shots.
Do you think Jordan ever thought about his last shot?...Do you think Kobe thinks about his last sho?, Wade?, Rose? Durant?.....You're the best player, be it, We dont expect our best player to never have a bad game, but when he's having a bad game we atleast expect consistency in his approach to the game whther he is having a good or bad game.

Of course they do. There's a reason Jordan didn't settle for 3's. He made it a point to get the easier, more efficient shot. He clearly had range. Why didn't he jack them up?

You make it seem as if LeBron simply stops shooting altogether. That's not the case. He just doesn't (for the most part) continue to jack up bad shots. Derrick Rose attacked more last game, instead of settling for long jumpers that clearly weren't falling in prior games. You make adjustments, you don't just keep doing the same thing hoping eventually something will change.

[Christofire]

Of course they do. There's a reason Jordan didn't settle for 3's. He made it a point to get the easier, more efficient shot. He clearly had range. Why didn't he jack them up?

You make it seem as if LeBron simply stops shooting altogether. That's not the case. He just doesn't (for the most part) continue to jack up bad shots. Derrick Rose attacked more last game, instead of settling for long jumpers that clearly weren't falling in prior games. You make adjustments, you don't just keep doing the same thing hoping eventually something will change.

Dont compare leBron to rose....if LeBron had half the heart of that little guy he'd still be in cleveland on his way to a title. I'd rather have rose than LeBron any day of the weak despite james being better, because i know Rose is leaving it all on the floor and his ability to play under pressure and deliver will make up for the advantage in talent that james may have.

2 jordan plays like jordan no matter how bad of a shooting night he is having...and rose stiill hoisted 3s, he just happened to make them this time.

[pauk]

never understood "stat padding" either.... unless its obvious the dude was statpadding..... like kobe in the 81 point game.... or ricky davis throw the ball at his own hoop to get the 1 rebound for the triple double and so on....

saying that kevin love or lebron statpadds is funny and only said by lil kiddie haters... and how the hell do they statpadd?

do they order or bribe their opponents and teammates to get the **** outta the way and leave the loose balls be so they can get the rebounds?
does lebron order or bribe his opponents to leave his teammates open and order the teammates to shoot immediately so he can get assists?
does lebron order or bribe his opponents to move the **** outta the way or ACT like they are defending him but they are really not so he can get points?
does lebron order or bribe his opponents to take it slow on offense and just lay the ball up there soft so he can look like a great defender?

if so.... then oscar robertson-wilt chamberlain-michael jordan were the biggest statpadders ever considering they were the most productive players ever........

[Clutch]

this guy know the answer

http://images.indyposted.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Kevin-Love-Minnesota-Timberwolves.jpg
this :lol

[Sroek]

You have to just watch it as it happens.

For instance, LBJ will often compromise fastbreak opportunities just to intercept a rebound that his teammate was already in a position to grab.

He also refuses to hoist up a buzzer beater from longer than 25 feet to save his FG%

[donald_trump]

You have to just watch it as it happens.

For instance, LBJ will often compromise fastbreak opportunities just to intercept a rebound that his teammate was already in a position to grab.

He also refuses to hoist up a buzzer beater from longer than 25 feet to save his FG%

thats interesting.

i cant think of a single player who has more 30 foot buzzer beater 3's than lebron currently in the nba.

[Glide2keva]

See Rondo.

[chips93]

What I don't get is people arguing Rondo's case of stat padding. Yes, he's aiming for assists, but if he scored, the points will show up on the stat sheet anyway. And since everyone seems to look at Points rather than assists, I don't see what's all the fuss besides not being aggressive.

And with points you get 2 + 1-1 FG shooting presented in the stat sheets vs 1 under the AST stat sheet.


its because he passes up an easy shot, to get a more difficult one off of an assist. like he passes up an open lay-up, to pass it to a teammate for an open jumpshot. its a tougher shot

[yeaaaman]

Dont compare leBron to rose....if LeBron had half the heart of that little guy he'd still be in cleveland on his way to a title. I'd rather have rose than LeBron any day of the weak despite james being better, because i know Rose is leaving it all on the floor and his ability to play under pressure and deliver will make up for the advantage in talent that james may have.

2 jordan plays like jordan no matter how bad of a shooting night he is having...and rose stiill hoisted 3s, he just happened to make them this time.

How dare he compare Lebron James to THE Derrick Rose! Blasphemy! Just look at Rose's resume. Nuff' said. :pimp:

[pauk]

How Exactly Do You Stat Pad?

watch 4th quarter of kobes 81 point game.... he could have went out like a hero... he had 60 something points at the end of 3rd and they had a very good lead and blowout.... all those points were necessary even tho its selfish............ but 4th quarter destroyed that as he still comes back in to take more shots just to break somekindof record... he forced all his teammates to get him the ball so he could shoot or else he got really mad........ it was not basketball anymore... it was a circus.... like watching NBA 2K11 played by some kobe ******ging kiddie taking all of the teams shots...... was discusted by that game....

thats stat padding....

[Hittin_Shots]

its because he passes up an easy shot, to get a more difficult one off of an assist. like he passes up an open lay-up, to pass it to a teammate for an open jumpshot. its a tougher shot

Ive seen Rondo get the shit blocked out of him many times while trying to finish these so called easy lay ups, he does pass up some that look like he had it easy but maybe he thought someone was coming up behind him. The amount of times Lebron and others have swatted him when he thought he was safe outweighs his passes off where we watching perceive he has no pressure.

Also the fast break ones, he gives it to a scorer on his team, scores get in rhythm when they score... Easy buckets = rhythm no matter how much ya wanna say, they're professional athletes come on it ray allen he's one of the greatest shooters of all time that dunk isnt gonna motivate him...

[JGXEN]

You pull a Wilt Chamberlain.

IE:

- fail to deliver when game is on the line, get most of your stats in the garbage minutes when team is down big (see '62 series vs. Celtics)
- you play 48 minutes a game, even in blowouts where team is up/down 25+ pts just to hit your specific statistical targets

Players don't usually get this opportunity anymore, but Wilt is the golden standard when it comes to this.
Jlauber and Phila will totally murder you

[Glide2keva]

How dare he compare Lebron James to THE Derrick Rose! Blasphemy! Just look at Rose's resume. Nuff' said. :pimp:
I didn't know lebron had more championships than Rose.

I could've sworn they were tied at 0

[chips93]

Ive seen Rondo get the shit blocked out of him many times while trying to finish these so called easy lay ups, he does pass up some that look like he had it easy but maybe he thought someone was coming up behind him. The amount of times Lebron and others have swatted him when he thought he was safe outweighs his passes off where we watching perceive he has no pressure.

Also the fast break ones, he gives it to a scorer on his team, scores get in rhythm when they score... Easy buckets = rhythm no matter how much ya wanna say, they're professional athletes come on it ray allen he's one of the greatest shooters of all time that dunk isnt gonna motivate him...


i would disagree, i think he would be a much more efficient player if he looked to score more, but thats just me, and i can understand you disagreeing with that.

however on him getting blocked, i think he gets blocked a lot, because he doesnt go up strong, he rarely finishes strong through contact, or attacks the basket looking to get a foul. i think hes afraid to shoot freethrow, similar to andris biedrins, i have heard a lot of people in the media say that they have been told, that he hates shooting fts because he sucks at it. i think if he wasnt so afraid to shoot fts, he would attack the basket more, and get fts and be a more efficient player.

[JtotheIzzo]

rebound shots at the end of quarters
pass to a teammate on a 2 vs 0
miss a put back to catch it and put back the next one
demand the ball in fouling situations
jack shots in garbage time
score 'meaningless' buckets (when games have already been decided)
excel during non-crucial points in the game

[dawsey6]

rebound shots at the end of quarters
pass to a teammate on a 2 vs 0
miss a put back to catch it and put back the next one
demand the ball in fouling situations
jack shots in garbage time
score 'meaningless' buckets (when games have already been decided)
excel during non-crucial points in the game

Really never got why this was ever considered padding. So if you went for the 2 points on a 2-on-0, or in some cases a 2-on-1, you're a real player, but if you make the 1 assist, you're a stat-padder? These situations are exciting to watch precisely because there are two players racing down the court. Nothing wrong at all with sharing the love in this situation, and it encourages team play to reward a teammate for hustling down the court with you.

[stephanieg]

Watch tape of Troy Murphy in Indiana.

[JtotheIzzo]

Really never got why this was ever considered padding. So if you went for the 2 points on a 2-on-0, or in some cases a 2-on-1, you're a real player, but if you make the 1 assist, you're a stat-padder? These situations are exciting to watch precisely because there are two players racing down the court. Nothing wrong at all with sharing the love in this situation, and it encourages team play to reward a teammate for hustling down the court with you.


I hear ya, I was just trying to think of a way to stat whore for assists.

maybe this scenario: you have 12 pts 10 rbs and 9 assists and are all alone under the hoop but instead of laying it in you wait for your teammate to come down and give him the ball.

[DRose.IS.da.MAN]

watch 4th quarter of kobes 81 point game.... he could have went out like a hero... he had 60 something points at the end of 3rd and they had a very good lead and blowout.... all those points were necessary even tho its selfish............ but 4th quarter destroyed that as he still comes back in to take more shots just to break somekindof record... he forced all his teammates to get him the ball so he could shoot or else he got really mad........ it was not basketball anymore... it was a circus.... like watching NBA 2K11 played by some kobe ******ging kiddie taking all of the teams shots...... was discusted by that game....

thats stat padding....

Wade> LeBron

:banana:

[gmoney9]

You have to just watch it as it happens.

For instance, LBJ will often compromise fastbreak opportunities just to intercept a rebound that his teammate was already in a position to grab.

He also refuses to hoist up a buzzer beater from longer than 25 feet to save his FG%
:rolleyes:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Well this is obviously a LeBron thread so I'll just say this...I don't think LeBron stat pads Points, Assists, Rebounds, etc. I think he is consciously aware and cares about preserving his FG%, as a lot of players do these days. They won't take last second shots, or pass up open shots in fear of damaging their FG% and other advanced metrics

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Pull A Wilt Chamberlain.
Fail to come through when it matters the most,
and get most of your stats in garbage time, even trying to hard in garbage time is.

[Silverbullit]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310410014&period=4

That's stat padding.....

[Christofire]

james stat padding methods

1)Instead of leaking out for fastbreak, he swoops in to steal rebs from his big
2)Hogging the ball with Wade on the bench late in 3rd and beginning of 4th quarter to beat up on bench unit
3) refusal to take buzzer deeper than 25 feet
4)hogging when game is out of reach

[Inactive]

james stat padding methods

1)Instead of leaking out for fastbreak, he swoops in to steal rebs from his big
2)Hogging the ball with Wade on the bench late in 3rd and beginning of 4th quarter to beat up on bench unit
3) refusal to take buzzer deeper than 25 feet
4)hogging when game is out of reachThe problem is that a lot of these things could be seen as virtuous, if interpreted by a different observer.

1)Hustling after rebounds.
2)Carrying the load, while the other starters rest.
3)
4)Never giving up, fighting back, no matter how impossible winning seems. Or keeping his foot on the gas, preventing the other team from making a run.

You're projecting your assumptions about his motives onto him. Maybe some of this is intentional "stat padding", but some of it is almost certainly just him trying to help his team win.

[Simple Jack]

james stat padding methods

1)Instead of leaking out for fastbreak, he swoops in to steal rebs from his big
2)Hogging the ball with Wade on the bench late in 3rd and beginning of 4th quarter to beat up on bench unit
3) refusal to take buzzer deeper than 25 feet
4)hogging when game is out of reach

During the 66 win season, with arguably his best statistics, he sat out plenty of fourth quarters due to blowing out teams.

The rest are verifiable. LeBron has a ton of deep buzzer beating shots.

Also, if LeBron was snatching rebounds on a constant basis from his bigs, wouldn't you expect them to excel at rebounding when he isn't in the game?

[Simple Jack]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310410014&period=4

That's stat padding.....

Agreed, but I mean on a consistent basis.

Kobe got his 40 vs the Magic by doing the same thing. Scoring when the game was virtually out of reach. A few instances doesn't make someone a stat padder.

[Christofire]

During the 66 win season, with arguably his best statistics, he sat out plenty of fourth quarters due to blowing out teams.

The rest are verifiable. LeBron has a ton of deep buzzer beating shots.

Also, if LeBron was snatching rebounds on a constant basis from his bigs, wouldn't you expect them to excel at rebounding when he isn't in the game?


he's a stat padder bro...get over it...I'm not the only one who sees it.

[Inactive]

he's a stat padder bro...get over it...I'm not the only one who sees it.A lot of people see Elvis. That doesn't mean he's really alive.

[TimmyDuncan]

Fighting for the rebound with your big man, playing garbage time etc... are all good point but it doesn't hurt your team.

2 ways to stat padd that actually are the worse because it hurt your defense :

- For a big man on defense : leaving your man early to focus on the defensive rebound.
He will be wide open if he get a pass but you increase your chance to get a rebond.

- For perimeter player on defense : Going for steals even if you have not a good shot at getting it
When you succeed you got a steal in the stats, otherwise no big deal it won't be seen in the stat.

[Kblaze8855]

Aside from that BS when he was passing over and over to get the assist for a triple double(and after the game acted like he didnt even know he was close to it) im not sure ive seen Lebron do anything id call stat padding.

The most obvious stat padders ive seen off the top of my head are young Jordan when he was going all out for triple doubles, Rondo this year, Rodman when he got really old and only rebounded even at the expense of defense or good positioning on offense, and Marcus Fizer. Of course not counting Ricky Davis.

I mean just night after night clear acts of playing for stats. Usually while still playing well(Fizer aside). But a good number of guys go for those numbers.

[jlauber]

You pull a Wilt Chamberlain.

IE:

- fail to deliver when game is on the line, get most of your stats in the garbage minutes when team is down big (see '62 series vs. Celtics)
- you play 48 minutes a game, even in blowouts where team is up/down 25+ pts just to hit your specific statistical targets

Players don't usually get this opportunity anymore, but Wilt is the golden standard when it comes to this.

Not even CLOSE to the greatest "stats-padding" season. That was accomplished by Kareem in his 71-72 season. His team went 63-19, with a +11.1 differential, and yet he played a CAREER-high in minutes per game, at 44.2 mpg. He led the NBA in scoring at 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting.

And then, in the playoffs, he was completely outplayed by Nate Thurmond, whoi outscored and outshot him....holding him to 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting. Then, against Wilt in the WCF's, in the last four pivotal games, he couldn't throw a ball in the Grand Canyon from the ledge, shooting a pathetic .414...and with Wilt knocking his "unblockable" sky-hook all over gym. And, of course Wilt LED his team to a 4-2 series win in that series.

Of course , that wasn't the first time that he would choke t the most critical time, either. In the very next season, and while Oscar played brilliantly, Kareem took a 60-22 Buck team down in flames against Nate's 47-35 Warriors, again only averaging 22.8 ppg and on a horrendous .428 FG%... losing that series, 4-2. THEN, Chamberlain CRUSHED Thrumond in the very NEXT round, in leading HIS 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 romp over Nate's Warriors (including a 126-70 win in Oakland...and I was there to witness it.)

Oh, then, in his 75-76 season, and playing for a 40-42 Laker team (that he could never lead to the Finals like Wilt did in nearly every season he was there), how come he could only play 41.2 mpg, when his team actually needed him to play more minutes? His scoring dropped down to 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting, as well. Where was his 44.2 mpg and 34.8 ppg and .574 shooting that season?

As for Wilt...the man played HUGE minutes his ENTIRE career. And while you brought up his 61-62 season, in which he SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried that team to a game seven two-point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics (SEVEN of them BTW...and a HOF coach) in the ECF's. But what about his 62-63 season, then? He played 47.6 mpg, on arguably the worst roster in NBA history...a team that went 31-49, BUT, lost 35 games by single digits...and were only involved in eight games of 20+ margins...and only one of 30+. Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg, which was +10.8 better than the runner-up; he LED the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg; and he shot .528 from the floor, which was a record at the time (that he would break four more times.) Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .412 without.

How bad was that roster? Their new head coach the very next year, Alex Hannum, had them scrimmage against rookies and non-draftees...and they lost the game! THEN, Wilt took that SAME basic roster, and LED them to a 48-32 reciord, and a Finals, where Russell, with his 8-2 edge in HOF teammates, disposed of Wilt's Warriors, 4-1. However, two of those wins were by 3 and 6 points. In any case, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25. And while we don't know exactly what either man shot in that series, Wilt shot .543 in the playoffs that year, with 5 of his 12 games against Russell....while Russell shot .356 in his 10 playoff games, with half of them against Wilt.


I also find it fascinating that Kareem missed CHUNKS of games in TWO separate seasons, with a broken hand. Why is that so interesting? Because Wilt PLAYED in a game five in the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED. And not only did he play...he DOMINATED the game. He LED his team to a clinching win, with a 24 pt, 29 reb, 10 block game, and won the Finals MVP in the process.

And YOU of all people criticized Wilt's performance in game six of the '68 ECF's, even though he was playing with THREE different foot and leg injuries...from game three on...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING in that game. He did shoot poorly, but still wound up with a 20 point, 27 rebound game...and basically playing on ONE leg. Now, why is that important? Well how about Kareem in the '80 Finals? He sprained his ankle in game five of that series...and decided to stay at home and watch game six from his couch. Oh, and BTW, MAGIC put up a historic game, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching ROAD win withOUT Kareem.

Yep...the REAL GOAT "stats-padder"...Kareem...and there is no one within another galaxy of him in that department.

[Psileas]

Let's see some cases that went unnoticed:

-Leaving your opponent to shoot open in order to grab another rebound (looks to Rodman)
-Having your teammates take a shot immediately after passing to them, even under bad circumstances, so that you get credited with easy assists (looks to a lot of modern day slash-and-dish guards and forwards)
-Getting informed about how far away you are from the triple-double by asking the stat guys during the game (looks to 1989 Jordan)
-Counting your stats during the game and knowing exactly what you got (again, looks to a lot of superstars, starting with Wilt and moving to almost all modern superstars). Remarkably, it's not considered stat-padding if you try to be bad-ass enough or if you humiliate your opponent (like Bird taunting Dr.J in the 1985 season or Barkley claiming that he'll go for 40/20 and then proceeds by counting his numbers during the game).


This is the only situation I can see fit to label someone a stat-padder. When he plays heavy minutes, with the game out of reach.

This was the case with more superstars from Wilt's era. The Celtics had the best team of the era, yet they used Russell a little less than Wilt's teams would use Wilt. Look at the 1965 squad: They had so many easy wins and blowouts you'll miss count, yet Russell plays 44.4 mpg, meaning that even he had his own share of stat-padding. Here's another case: The 1972 Bucks went 63-19, yet Kareem played a career high 44.2 mpg.
Oscar Robertson played tons of minutes, even Jerry Lucas early on, without being the player of the same magnitude.
Knowing this, why the heck should Wilt be confined to, say, 40, especially while being the physical specimen he was and taking into account his teams weren't always powerhouses?

[PHILA]

Jlauber and Phila will totally murder youAfter the inexplicable Olajuwon ranking, no thanks. Akin to the Shaq fan, it's like talking to stone. While they are indeed bright young minds, there is little left to discuss regarding the all time centers.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Not even CLOSE to the greatest "stats-padding" season. That was accomplished by Kareem in his 71-72 season. His team went 63-19, with a +11.1 differential, and yet he played a CAREER-high in minutes per game, at 44.2 mpg. He led the NBA in scoring at 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting.

And then, in the playoffs, he was completely outplayed by Nate Thurmond, whoi outscored and outshot him....holding him to 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting. Then, against Wilt in the WCF's, in the last four pivotal games, he couldn't throw a ball in the Grand Canyon from the ledge, shooting a pathetic .414...and with Wilt knocking his "unblockable" sky-hook all over gym. And, of course Wilt LED his team to a 4-2 series win in that series.

Of course , that wasn't the first time that he would choke t the most critical time, either. In the very next season, and while Oscar played brilliantly, Kareem took a 60-22 Buck team down in flames against Nate's 47-35 Warriors, again only averaging 22.8 ppg and on a horrendous .428 FG%... losing that series, 4-2. THEN, Chamberlain CRUSHED Thrumond in the very NEXT round, in leading HIS 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 romp over Nate's Warriors (including a 126-70 win in Oakland...and I was there to witness it.)

Oh, then, in his 75-76 season, and playing for a 40-42 Laker team (that he could never lead to the Finals like Wilt did in nearly every season he was there), how come he could only play 41.2 mpg, when his team actually needed him to play more minutes? His scoring dropped down to 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting, as well. Where was his 44.2 mpg and 34.8 ppg and .574 shooting that season?

As for Wilt...the man played HUGE minutes his ENTIRE career. And while you brought up his 61-62 season, in which he SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried that team to a game seven two-point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics (SEVEN of them BTW...and a HOF coach) in the ECF's. But what about his 62-63 season, then? He played 47.6 mpg, on arguably the worst roster in NBA history...a team that went 31-49, BUT, lost 35 games by single digits...and were only involved in eight games of 20+ margins...and only one of 30+. Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg, which was +10.8 better than the runner-up; he LED the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg; and he shot .528 from the floor, which was a record at the time (that he would break four more times.) Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .412 without.

How bad was that roster? Their new head coach the very next year, Alex Hannum, had them scrimmage against rookies and non-draftees...and they lost the game! THEN, Wilt took that SAME basic roster, and LED them to a 48-32 reciord, and a Finals, where Russell, with his 8-2 edge in HOF teammates, disposed of Wilt's Warriors, 4-1. However, two of those wins were by 3 and 6 points. In any case, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25. And while we don't know exactly what either man shot in that series, Wilt shot .543 in the playoffs that year, with 5 of his 12 games against Russell....while Russell shot .356 in his 10 playoff games, with half of them against Wilt.


I also find it fascinating that Kareem missed CHUNKS of games in TWO separate seasons, with a broken hand. Why is that so interesting? Because Wilt PLAYED in a game five in the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED. And not only did he play...he DOMINATED the game. He LED his team to a clinching win, with a 24 pt, 29 reb, 10 block game, and won the Finals MVP in the process.

And YOU of all people criticized Wilt's performance in game six of the '68 ECF's, even though he was playing with THREE different foot and leg injuries...from game three on...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING in that game. He did shoot poorly, but still wound up with a 20 point, 27 rebound game...and basically playing on ONE leg. Now, why is that important? Well how about Kareem in the '80 Finals? He sprained his ankle in game five of that series...and decided to stay at home and watch game six from his couch. Oh, and BTW, MAGIC put up a historic game, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching ROAD win withOUT Kareem.

Yep...the REAL GOAT "stats-padder"...Kareem...and there is no one within another galaxy of him in that department.

:applause: jlauber bringin the heat and droppin knowledge :bowdown:

[jlauber]

Pull A Wilt Chamberlain.
Fail to come through when it matters the most,
and get most of your stats in garbage time, even trying to hard in garbage time is.

Ok, since you must have actually watched Wilt to make these observations, go ahead and give me your examples.

But before you do, think about this...

Wilt AVERAGED 45.2 MPG over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER. And, as unbelieveable as that was...how about this...he AVERAGED 47.2 MPG over the course of his ENTIRE post-season career...covering 160 playoff games.

So, what does that tell you? The man just PLAYED. Unlike guys like Kareem, who was one of the biggest "front-runners" in NBA history...and a player who absolutely CHOKED on MULTIPLE occassions. Put him on a great team, and in a game in which his team is leading by 20 points, and Kareem would hang 40. Or he would put up a 50 point game in a game in which his team was blown out 123-107...and in which he would get outrebounded 25-8. Or he would just give up, as he did against Moses in '83. Or he would he would take heavily-favored 60 win teams down in flames against 47-35 teams in the playoffs. Or, in a game seven of the '74 Finals, he would get outplayed by a 6-9 WHITE center. THAT was an example of a "stats-padder", or a "choker."

Furthermore, had MAGIC never came to LA, Kareem would have retired with ONE ring...in a year in which the only team that could have beaten his team, the Lakers, were without BOTH Baylor and West. Oh, and then he punctuated that title by beating a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

And, after Oscar retired in '74, Kareem and his Bucks crumbled to a 38-44 record. Yes, he missed 16 games....with that damn broken wrist. No way that wussie could play with a broken wrist. He was subsequently traded, and dxespite a solid roster that included HOFer Goodrich, he lethargically led that Laker team to a 40-42 record. Meanwhile, his former team, the Bucks, with Elmore Smith replacing him...STILL went 38-44.

How about 76-77? Kareem's Lakers had the best record in the league. BUT, then in the playoffs, they were SWEPT by a 49-33 Blazers team. In the 77-78 season, Kareem, playing alongside players like Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, Jammal Wilkes, and Adrian Dantley, "led" his team to a 45-37 record, and a first round exit against the Sonics...a team with ONE borderline HOFer in Dennis Johnson. Oh, the Bullets, with a 44-38 record won the NBA title. Kareem then took that same LOADED roster to a 47-35 record the very next year, where once again, the vastly inferior Sonics team routed his Lakers in the playoffs, 4-1.

It didn't end there, either. It would be MAGIC who would IMMEDIATELY take that Laker team to a 60-222 record, and a title in his FIRST season. In fact, Kareem couldn't play with a sprain (unlike Wilt who played almost an ENTIRE series with SEVERAL leg and foot injuries...and who also came back from major knee surgery WAY ahead of schedule...and who then put up a 23-24 .625 Finals)...in game six of the '80 Finals. Of course, the Lakers didn't need him anyway, as the REAL leader of that great Laker dynasty, MAGIC, put up that historic 42-15 game six in LEADING LA to a title.

The very next year, Magic was injured and missed much of the season. He was not 100% in the playoffs either, and with Moses battering a Kareem who could not carry his team...the 40-42 Rockets knocked off the heavily-favored Lakers. Incidently, that series was just ONE example of what MAGIC meant to that dynasty. In the 88-89 playoffs, LA was 11-0 going into the Finals. Magic was injured mid-way in game two, and was lost for the series. What happened...Kareem once again folded tent, and the Lakers were SWEPT.

MAGIC led LA to another title in '82, and won the Finals MVP with Kareem playing well below even his best "stats-padding" playoffs.

In '83, with Worthy out, Kareem couldn't pick up the slack, and was once again just CRUSHED by Moses in the Finals...in yet ANOTHER sweeping loss for Kareem.

Magic was called "Tragic" in the '84 Finals, yet all he did was average 18 ppg, LEAD LA in rebounding (as he did in FIVE Finals in the Kareem-era), with 13 apg, and shooting .560 from the floor. Meanwhile, Kareem shot under 50% in the series, and went 7-25 in a game five loss.

Kareem FINALLY had a "clutch" Finals in '85, but the CLEAR best player on that Laker team was Magic. Incidently, Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. EVERYONE knew who the REAL leader of the Lakers was.

Kareem, who so thoroughly dominated Hakeem in the '86 regular season (33ppg on .634 shooting) was outplayed by him in the playoffs...and the result...a 62-20 Laker team losing 4-1 to the 51-31 Rockets.

In '87 it was MAGIC taking over in EVERY aspect of the Laker offense, and then he played one of the greatest Finals in NBA history, while Kareem was now only the THIRD best player on the team.

In '88, Kareem was HORRIBLE in the post-season, and was even WORSE in thje Finals. He was arguably only LA's FIFTH best player at that point...and in fact, the Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem's 13-4 .413 Finals.

I already mentioned Kareem's flop job in the '89 Finals, when LA, without Magic, was SWEPT once again.

How important was Kareem to the Lakers? In his last season, they went 57-25. He retired, and the Lakers IMPROVED to 63-19 (which was their SECOND best record during the 80's.) Then, MAGIC took a team that was well-past their primes, and injury-riddled, to yet another Finals in '91.

Of course, when Magic retired, the Lakers IMMEDIATELY fell to 43-39...which was about what they were when Kareem was "leading" them in the 70's.

Now, you tell me who was the "STATS-PADDER"...a Wilt who PLAYED nearly EVERY minute of EVERY game...even when badly hurt...

or the "front-running" Kareem, who was a PANZIE, and who flopped so MANY times in his big games. Yes, he could score 30-40 meaningless points...but without an Oscar or Magic LEADING his team's...he was a "choker", a "loser" and FAR more of a "failure" than Wilt ever was.

[jlauber]

Thanks to PHILA for this...


Wilt Chamberlain


1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down court for the go ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)


Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."

Incidently, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.

And, IMHO, his greatest effort came against Kareem in game six of the WCF's. He held Kareem to 16-37 shooting, while going 8-12 himself, and scoring 22 points with 24 rebounds. And, he absolutely took over the game in the 4th quarter, and led LA back from a 10 point deficit to a clinching four point win. He also blocked 11 shots in that game, and five of them were Kareem's sky-hooks.