Wade/Bron vs. Jordan/Pippen (statistics request)

[B-Easy]

Jordan/Pippen obviously gets the nod ..

But im curious , any statistical comparisons of the 2 as duo?
Im curious which duo assisted each other more , for example.


People have this perception that Wade/Lebron dont fit .. id say they way they defend and the way they continue to score 30+ even together as teammates .. its a myth .. id love to see some statistics.

[Samurai Swoosh]

This is Wade / Bron's first season together. So it's not exactly fair. As individuals Wade, LeBron >>> Pippen. But Jordan >>> Wade, LeBron, and together Jordan and Pippen played off one another extremely well, and had a long career together so the comparison is way too premature. Jordan was the clear cut number 1 alpha dog, LeBron and Wade are a 1a, 1b scenario much like Kareem / Magic, Shaq / Kobe, etc.

[B-Easy]

This is Wade / Bron's first season together. So it's not exactly fair. As individuals Wade, LeBron >>> Pippen. But Jordan >>> Wade, LeBron, and together Jordan and Pippen played off one another extremely well, and had a long career together so the comparison is way too premature. Jordan was the clear cut number 1 alpha dog, LeBron and Wade are a 1a, 1b scenario much like Kareem / Magic, Shaq / Kobe, etc.

my first sentence makes it clear .. that im not trying to say wade and lebron are better or anything.

[canefandynasty]

Jordan- Pippen PER
1987- 88: 31.7- 12.9
1988- 89: 31.1- 14.9
1989- 90: 31.2- 16.3
1990- 91: 32.0- 22.0
1991- 92: 27.7- 21.5
1992- 93: 29.7- 19.2
1995- 96: 29.4- 21.0
1996- 97: 27.8- 21.3
1997- 98: 25.2- 20.4

Wade- LeBron PER
2010- 11: 25.6- 27.3

[B-Easy]

Jordan- Pippen PER
1987- 88: 31.7- 12.9
1988- 89: 31.1- 14.9
1989- 90: 31.2- 16.3
1990- 91: 32.0- 22.0
1991- 92: 27.7- 21.5
1992- 93: 29.7- 19.2
1995- 96: 29.4- 21.0
1996- 97: 27.8- 21.3
1997- 98: 25.2- 20.4

Wade- LeBron PER
2010- 11: 25.6- 27.3

thanks ..

interesting that wade/lebron PER adds up to a higher total than any of those 9 seasons for jorda/pippen.

[97 bulls]

thanks ..

interesting that wade/lebron PER adds up to a higher total than any of those 9 seasons for jorda/pippen.
Not really. The league rules make it easier for perimeter players to score. Put pippen in this eras rules and he be avg 24 ppg and jordan 33.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not really. The league rules make it easier for perimeter players to score. Put pippen in this eras rules and he be avg 24 ppg and jordan 33.
I'd say that's fair ... 1995 - 1998 Jordan could average 33 ppg, now.

1988 - 1993 Jordan could average 36 ppg, easily.

[Soothing Layup]

thanks ..

interesting that wade/lebron PER adds up to a higher total than any of those 9 seasons for jorda/pippen.

lol u tarded?

Of course it does, dumbass. Wade and LeBron are both top 25 superstars playing in a weak ass Eastern conference. Pippen isn't even the same calibur player as MJ, LBJ, and Michael.

What is funny though....? How Mikey J avged. more PPG then both LBJ and Wade are THIS season....... When he was 34.

[Derka]

Jordan/Pippen 6 Rings
James/Wade 0 Rings


That's one stat that comes to mind.

[kaiiu]

Wades sidekick> MJ sidekick

MJ> Wade

[B-Easy]

Not really. The league rules make it easier for perimeter players to score. Put pippen in this eras rules and he be avg 24 ppg and jordan 33.

this is ridiculous ..

Do you realize how hard it is to put up 33ppg .. next to another great scorer? .. theres a reason Jordans big scoring numbers came before Pippen.


and vice versa.

do you realize how hard it would be to put up 23ppg for Pippen .. next to someone that is dominant enough to put up 33ppg?

[bond10]

Jordan/Pippen 6 Rings
James/Wade 0 Rings


That's one stat that comes to mind.

#1 It's Wade and Lebron's first season you noob and they're getting their 1st ring this year.

#2 Rings the only stat that matters? Robert Horry > Kobe, Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Kareem ???

[97 bulls]

lol u tarded?

Of course it does, dumbass. Wade and LeBron are both top 25 superstars playing in a weak ass Eastern conference. Pippen isn't even the same calibur player as MJ, LBJ, and Michael.

What is funny though....? How Mikey J avged. more PPG then both LBJ and Wade....... When he was 34.
I really don't see how pippen isn't. Maybe not in jordans and james leagu but he's definately in wades. Like I said earlier pippen in this era is easily a 24 ppg scorer. Even playing with a ball dominant player like jordan.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Pippen isn't even the same calibur player as MJ, LBJ, and Michael
He's not the same caliber as Wade, either ...

[Derka]

#1 It's Wade and Lebron's first season you noob and they're getting their 1st ring this year.

#2 Rings the only stat that matters? Robert Horry > Kobe, Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Kareem ???

Settle down, genius. It was a joke. Cos you know...I seriously had no idea this was their first year playing together.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I really don't see how pippen isn't. Maybe not in jordans and james leagu but he's definately in wades. Like I said earlier pippen in this era is easily a 24 ppg scorer. Even playing with a ball dominant player like jordan.
Bro ... seriously. Wade is better than Pippen. Pippen plays better in a role, but Wade is the more dominant player.

[28renyoy]

Did someone really just bring up PER? Durant & Westbrook combined had a PER of 47+ this season at 22 years old each, welp guess they're going to be the GOAT combo during their prime :hammerhead:

[B-Easy]

I really don't see how pippen isn't. Maybe not in jordans and james leagu but he's definately in wades. Like I said earlier pippen in this era is easily a 24 ppg scorer. Even playing with a ball dominant player like jordan.

you really overrating this handchecking thing ... the league is deeper in talent than it was back in the 90s and defensive schemes are more complex.



Look at the Celtics defending .. and the Bulls .. (two teams Miami will have to go through) .. and tell me theyre not TOUGH to score on.

[B-Easy]

Did someone really just bring up PER? Durant & Westbrook combined had a PER of 47+ this season at 22 years old each, welp guess they're going to be the GOAT combo during their prime :hammerhead:

thing is . .wade and lebron are dominant defensively on the perimeter.
westbrook and durant are not.

No one is saying Wade and Lebron are better .. but do you really think they dont compare?

[97 bulls]

this is ridiculous ..

Do you realize how hard it is to put up 33ppg .. next to another great scorer? .. theres a reason Jordans big scoring numbers came before Pippen.


and vice versa.

do you realize how hard it would be to put up 23ppg for Pippen .. next to someone that is dominant enough to put up 33ppg?
Why would it be hard? Pippen avg right around 20 ppg playing with jordan. Give him a couple extra trips to the line and the opportunity to make easier shots and I don't see why he couldn't get 24. Its only a basket and a couple of fts

[97 bulls]

Bro ... seriously. Wade is better than Pippen. Pippen plays better in a role, but Wade is the more dominant player.
No, wades a better score than pippen. Pippen is better at every other facet of basketball. Why is wade better? Cuz of 06 and 09? Come on.

[97 bulls]

you really overrating this handchecking thing ... the league is deeper in talent than it was back in the 90s and defensive schemes are more complex.



Look at the Celtics defending .. and the Bulls .. (two teams Miami will have to go through) .. and tell me theyre not TOUGH to score on.
Why even bring these points up b-easy? Theyve been refuted a million times. The talent isn't better, its not worse but its not better, and its not just the rule changes. The trianagle offense isn't condisive to having a bunch of big time scorers. There are plenty of factors that indicate pippen in this era would score on avg 3-4 ppg more

[BlackJoker23]

the gap between wade and pippen is as big as the gap between jordan and drexler.

[B-Easy]

any way to see how much wade and lebron assist each other .. compared to jordan and pippen/

[Mach_3]

the gap between wade and pippen is as big as the gap between jordan and drexler.

There is nothing that Drexler does better than Jordan, there are several things that Pippen is better than Wade at.

[canefandynasty]

Wade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pippen

[97 bulls]

He's not the same caliber as Wade, either ...
I understand where you're comming from. You feel thos 6 rings jordan has on his hand were accomplished only because of him. And pippens contributions were minimal. I don't agree.

[canefandynasty]

There is nothing that Drexler does better than Jordan, there are several things that Pippen is better than Wade at.

rebounding
Pippen > Jordan

assists
pippen > jordan

defense
pippen > jordan

overall
pippen > jordan?

[PJR]

There is nothing that Drexler does better than Jordan, there are several things that Pippen is better than Wade at.

:oldlol: Several my ass. Pippen was just better at defense in general. That's it. (on the ball, and off the ball). That's all he was really better at in comparison to Wade.

[canefandynasty]

:oldlol: Several my ass. Pippen was just better at defense in general. That's it. (on the ball, and off the ball). That's all he was really better at in comparison to Wade.

And, it's not like Wade is a slouch defensively.

[97 bulls]

rebounding
Pippen > Jordan

assists
pippen > jordan

defense
pippen > jordan

overall
pippen > jordan?
Lol jordan showed his versitility in 88 whn he avg 32/8/8. Onece pippen arrived putting up those kind of number weren't needed. It wasn't like he couldn't.

[97 bulls]

And, it's not like Wade is a slouch defensively.
And pippens no slouch offensively either.

[canefandynasty]

Lol jordan showed his versitility in 88 whn he avg 32/8/8. Onece pippen arrived putting up those kind of number weren't needed. It wasn't like he couldn't.

And Wade hasn't shown versatility? What the heck is your point?

[TheMan]

Passing, rebounding and defense Pippen>Wade

scoring Wade>Pippen

[jrong]

He's not the same caliber as Wade, either ...

Exactly. Pippen was a 21/7/7 player with or without Jordan. That's admirable consistency, but Wade put up 30/5/7.5 without his generation's supposed Jordan. No comparison whatsoever.

Also, because I know the "defense" argument is about to be raised, there's no way Pippen would be as an effective defender in the non-handchecking era. (That's called a counter-intuitive, my friends. Everyone says perimeter scorers are aided by the lack of handchecking today. It follows, then, that perimeter defenders in the handcheck-era were aided by the freedom to handcheck.)

[jrong]

Passing, rebounding and defense Pippen>Wade

scoring Wade>Pippen

Not a chance. Wade is at least the passer/playmaker that Pippen was. And ball-handling: Wade. Penetration: Wade. Takeover: Wade. Clutch: Wade. Efficiency: Wade.

And most importantly, the gap between Wade and Pippen on offense is a CHASM compared to the gap between Pippen and Wade on defense.

[bond10]

Exactly. Pippen was a 21/7/7 player with or without Jordan. That's admirable consistency, but Wade put up 30/5/7.5 without his generation's supposed Jordan. No comparison whatsoever.

Also, because I know the "defense" argument is about to be raised, there's no way Pippen would be as an effective defender in the non-handchecking era. (That's called a counter-intuitive, my friends. Everyone says perimeter scorers are aided by the lack of handchecking today. It follows, then, that perimeter defenders in the handcheck-era were aided by the freedom to handcheck.)

This.

[BlackJoker23]

There is nothing that Drexler does better than Jordan, there are several things that Pippen is better than Wade at.
you just don't understand do you? david robinson was better at several things than shaq yet he can't carry o'neal's jockstrap. in fact, robinson would probably have the edge if you compare each facet of the game. the difference is shaq was so much better at low post scoring and playoff performance, that it shits on any edge robinson had.

same is true when comparing wade and pippen because there's a huge ass gap between their offensive talent and capabilities.

[TheMan]

Not a chance. Wade is at least the passer/playmaker that Pippen was. And ball-handling: Wade. Penetration: Wade. Takeover: Wade. Clutch: Wade.

And most importantly, the gap between Wade and Pippen on offense is a CHASM compared to the gap between Pippen and Wade on defense.

I'm not trying to say that Pip is better than Wade overall but he is better at D, rebounding and assists.

BTW, Pippen is an 8 time All Defensive first teamer while Wade is a 3 time All Defensive second teamer.

The gap between Pippen and Wade on defense is more than a little gap, it is also a chasm...

[TheMan]

Exactly. Pippen was a 21/7/7 player with or without Jordan. That's admirable consistency, but Wade put up 30/5/7.5 without his generation's supposed Jordan. No comparison whatsoever.

Also, because I know the "defense" argument is about to be raised, there's no way Pippen would be as an effective defender in the non-handchecking era. (That's called a counter-intuitive, my friends. Everyone says perimeter scorers are aided by the lack of handchecking today. It follows, then, that perimeter defenders in the handcheck-era were aided by the freedom to handcheck.)
The handcheck was eliminated in 94, Pippen was named All Defensive first team 8 straight years (92-99), looks like the handcheck rule didn't stop him from being a defensive force...

[jrong]

I'm not trying to say that Pip is better than Wade overall but he is better at D, rebounding and assists.

BTW, Pippen is an 8 time All Defensive first teamer while Wade is a 3 time All Defensive second teamer.

The gap between Pippen and Wade on defense is more than a little gap, it is also a chasm...

Pippen is a notably better defender than Wade, true; however the gap is not as large when you remember, as I said, that Pippen was allowed to handcheck and Wade isn't.

Also, with regards to defensive-team selections, I don't know if they were worthless back in the 90s, but now you even have many writers coming out and saying they are ridiculous. Kobe Bryant right now might as well be awarded first-team honors in advance until the year he names for his retirement date. Wade has been screwed at least three times by robo-Kobe voting.

And Pippen and Wade are equally adept passers. In the pre-LBJ-era, Wade was a perennial 7 apg player.

[TheMan]

Pippen is a notably better defender than Wade, true; however the gap is not as large when you remember, as I said, that Pippen was allowed to handcheck and Wade isn't.

Also, with regards to defensive-team selections, I don't know if they were worthless back in the 90s, but now you even have many writers coming out and saying they are ridiculous. Kobe Bryant right now might as well be awarded first-team honors in advance until the year he names for his retirement date. Wade has been screwed at least three times by robo-Kobe voting.

And Pippen and Wade are equally adept passers. In the pre-LBJ-era, Wade was a perennial 7 apg player.
Pippen wasn't allowed to handcheck either after 94, he was still an All Defensive first teamer 6 more years...I'll also note that I'm old enough to have watched prime Pippen and obviously Wade today, there is a huge difference in defensive capabilities.Pippen was a shutdown defender, among the best I've ever seen bar none.

I agree with you on that Wade should've won defensive SG over KB, no doubt.

[Micku]

And pippens no slouch offensively either.

I think you're overrating Pippen offense. Pippen is a guy who can shoot anywhere on the floor later on in his career, but he never shoots it in volume nor does he shoot it as well as Wade. He mainly is a slasher, which is fine.

But Wade does everything better on the offensive side. There's hardly anything that Pippen does better on the O. Wade can get by his man much easier.

Pippen was never on Wade's level. You can argue that he was a better rebounder and defender, which he was. I think Pippen may have been a better passer. But it's not too far away. Wade is a good defender and a good passer, but their offensive game is what separates them. Not to mention Wade steps up more in the playoffs while Pippen decrease more on the offensive side in his prime.

Wade creates way more attention which his ability to slash and shoot when he is hot. Wade is better finisher. Pippen was never that player.

However, we don't know what Wade would be look like with hand-checking. My guess is that they would defender better, but Wade was still quick enough to get pass his man. He would still be a superstar player.



The handcheck was eliminated in 94, Pippen was named All Defensive first team 8 straight years (92-99), looks like the handcheck rule didn't stop him from being a defensive force...

There was still hand-checking, but only if a player would go to a certain area. In 2004-05 or something, that's where the player have more space. No hand-checking period if I'm right. The 70s you get to see aggressive hand-checking.

[97 bulls]

And Wade hasn't shown versatility? What the heck is your point?
Sure he has. But not on jordans level.

[jrong]

Pippen wasn't allowed to handcheck either after 94, he was still an All Defensive first teamer 6 more years...I'll also note that I'm old enough to have watched prime Pippen and obviously Wade today, there is a huge difference in defensive capabilities.Pippen was a shutdown defender, among the best I've ever seen bar none.

Oh, I watched Pippen too, and he was clearly the superior defender. However, I wasn't aware then of what the contemporary perception was of various NBA awards. Were they perceived then, as they increasingly are today, as a joke? It doesn't mean that Pippen's honors were undeserved, it's just that I don't even know if those can ever be viewed as having any weight in player-comparisons anymore.

(For instance, I can make a fairly bullet-proof case that Wade>Drexler, but one of the (many) sources of evidence I used to cite was Wade's three second-team all-defense honors. But, I would probably leave that out now because for all I know, the selections were as flimsy then as they are today.)


....Anyway, the real difference between Wade and Pippen can be summed up as follows-- it's the comparison between a pure-alpha and a pure-beta. And there's a reason why betas aren't alphas (and why betas don't produce like alphas even when they are thrust into the role of playing as one)....

[SayQueensbridge]

Wades sidekick> MJ sidekick

MJ> Wade

What kaiiu said.

[ILLsmak]

lol Wade or bron might be better than Pippen, but if you traded one of them for Pippen they'd be a much better team.

-Smak

[jrong]

lol Wade or bron might be better than Pippen, but if you traded one of them for Pippen they'd be a much better team.

-Smak

LeBron (and I'd argue Wade too) is better than Howard. But, the Heat would be a much better team if they traded him for Dwight.

[Heat007]

MJ > Wade = LeBron > Pippen


In other words...


His Airness > Flash = King > Robin


Let's not forget that this is only year 1 of Wade/LeBron together. If Wade and LeBron played many years together in their prime years like MJ and Scottie did, a lot of you would be singing a different tune.,

[ILLsmak]

LeBron (and I'd argue Wade too) is better than Howard. But, the Heat would be a much better team if they traded him for Dwight.

Yup, never happen though...

-Smak

[97 bulls]

Exactly. Pippen was a 21/7/7 player with or without Jordan. That's admirable consistency, but Wade put up 30/5/7.5 without his generation's supposed Jordan. No comparison whatsoever.

Also, because I know the "defense" argument is about to be raised, there's no way Pippen would be as an effective defender in the non-handchecking era. (That's called a counter-intuitive, my friends. Everyone says perimeter scorers are aided by the lack of handchecking today. It follows, then, that perimeter defenders in the handcheck-era were aided by the freedom to handcheck.)
That's not counter to the argument. Pippen would still be a top 5 defender in any era. Defenses always adjust. In fact, I think pippen would be even better defensively cuz he wouldn't have to worry about being called for illegal defense.

[Micku]

That's not counter to the argument. Pippen would still be a top 5 defender in any era. Defenses always adjust. In fact, I think pippen would be even better defensively cuz he wouldn't have to worry about being called for illegal defense.

You're right. Pippen would still be a great defender. You weren't allowed to use hand-checking on the perimeter except when they are driving in the paint area after the rules changed in the mid 90s, but he was still regard as one of the best. He would actually be a better help defender because of zone.

He would just have a hard time guarding somebody if he gets beat.

[97 bulls]

I think you're overrating Pippen offense. Pippen is a guy who can shoot anywhere on the floor later on in his career, but he never shoots it in volume nor does he shoot it as well as Wade. He mainly is a slasher, which is fine.

But Wade does everything better on the offensive side. There's hardly anything that Pippen does better on the O. Wade can get by his man much easier.

Pippen was never on Wade's level. You can argue that he was a better rebounder and defender, which he was. I think Pippen may have been a better passer. But it's not too far away. Wade is a good defender and a good passer, but their offensive game is what separates them. Not to mention Wade steps up more in the playoffs while Pippen decrease more on the offensive side in his prime.

Wade creates way more attention which his ability to slash and shoot when he is hot. Wade is better finisher. Pippen was never that player.

However, we don't know what Wade would be look like with hand-checking. My guess is that they would defender better, but Wade was still quick enough to get pass his man. He would still be a superstar player.



There was still hand-checking, but only if a player would go to a certain area. In 2004-05 or something, that's where the player have more space. No hand-checking period if I'm right. The 70s you get to see aggressive hand-checking.
Like I said, pippen was neveer as offensively aggresive as wade. But why can't you and others comprehend that scoring 25 ppg wasn't his job? The man avg 20 ppg on like 48% shooting. Is it really that far out of the realm of possibility that if pippen asserted himself more offensive in this era that he couldn't drop 27 ppg on 46% shooting.? I mean my god does anybody in this forum play athletics? Everybody has a role. Pippen had way more responsibilities than wade has ever had. And im not talking about zoneing in on a guy for a few possesions, im talking about playing defense at a high level whether it be man, help, blind side blocks, trap, full court press, box out, pippen did at the highest level. Wades just to inconsistant on defense. And wade role has never been what pippens was. And wades team have never run an offense as stagnant as the triangle.

Take pippen and tell him to be agressive and constantly give him the ball at the top of the 3 point line, constantly run the fast break, take away the hand checking and give him an xtra few trips to the line. How in the hell would he not be able to get 24 to 25 ppg?

And I guarantee pippen would fair farrrrrrr better in wade role than wade in pippens role. Cuz pippen had to be cerebral as well as athletic.

And im still amazed at how people continue to say pippen didn't take over games. I think he's had as many player defing games as anybody not in the top 10. And I challenge anybody to show me different. And I know that he'd fair better than wade at leading a team. Im sick of hearing about wade 06. The man literraly spent more time at the ft line than the mavs. And no matter what you say about shaq, he was the best center in the league. Fact is, wade hasnt done a damn thing outside of that year, past putting up gawdy stats.

[97 bulls]

MJ > Wade = LeBron > Pippen


In other words...


His Airness > Flash = King > Robin


Let's not forget that this is only year 1 of Wade/LeBron together. If Wade and LeBron played many years together in their prime years like MJ and Scottie did, a lot of you would be singing a different tune.,
Lol the fact that they've had years with their own team helps their case. I wish pippen would've had a few years in his prime as the man so this nonsense would end. Im supremely confident that pippen would lead a team to at least 1 championship and win an mvp.

[97 bulls]

You're right. Pippen would still be a great defender. You weren't allowed to use hand-checking on the perimeter except when they are driving in the paint area after the rules changed in the mid 90s, but he was still regard as one of the best. He would actually be a better help defender because of zone.

He would just have a hard time guarding somebody if he gets beat.
Even when he got beat, his recover ability was amazing.

[Micku]

Like I said, pippen was neveer as offensively aggresive as wade. But why can't you and others comprehend that scoring 25 ppg wasn't his job? The man avg 20 ppg on like 48% shooting. Is it really that far out of the realm of possibility that if pippen asserted himself more offensive in this era that he couldn't drop 27 ppg on 46% shooting.? I mean my god does anybody in this forum play athletics? Everybody has a role. Pippen had way more responsibilities than wade has ever had.

...

Take pippen and tell him to be agressive and constantly give him the ball at the top of the 3 point line, constantly run the fast break, take away the hand checking and give him an xtra few trips to the line. How in the hell would he not be able to get 24 to 25 ppg?

And I guarantee pippen would fair farrrrrrr better in wade role than wade in pippens role. Cuz pippen had to be cerebral as well as athletic.

And im still amazed at how people continue to say pippen didn't take over games. I think he's had as many player defing games as anybody not in the top 10. And I challenge anybody to show me different. And I know that he'd fair better than wade at leading a team. Im sick of hearing about wade 06. The man literraly spent more time at the ft line than the mavs. And no matter what you say about shaq, he was the best center in the league. Fact is, wade hasnt done a damn thing outside of that year, past putting up gawdy stats.

Pippen didn't have more responsibilities than Wade in 08-10. He was their guy to control the offense, he was their best perimeter defender, and he was the guy who they look for in the clutch. Not only did Wade brought the production that Pippen never achieved, he carried a team that people thought won't make it to the playoffs. Pippen could never do that to the extent of Wade. And if Pippen could score a lot, he would've in the seasons where Jordan wasn't there. Sometimes the Bulls would be missing a go to guy and a person who could score a lot, and Pippen was never that guy. Later on his career, around his prime, he shot at a worse percentage from the field and FT line. Especially in the playoffs.

Pippen was never a 25+ ppg guy. And if you think "Oh, if he take more shots?" then you might as well say that about a lot guys who average borderline 20 ppg. Pippen could average more points depending on the circumstances, but Pippen couldn't do it as the main option within the Bulls system, and that wasn't his game.

And Pippen didn't take over the game like other perimeter stars. Wilkins took over the games more than Pippen.

And I don't know what you mean by Pippen would be better taking Wade's role. I mean, I really doubt Pippen do what Wade did in 04-06 and 08-10. But if you are talking about current Miami Heat, then maybe. It's a give and take deal. People would be more incline to double team if Pippen was on the team and not Wade. But in turn, you'll have a more fluent team.

But I'm not saying Pippen was a srub, because he wasn't. He might've been the best SF out of the 90s. But I doubt Pippen is on Wade's level.

[97 bulls]

Pippen didn't have more responsibilities than Wade in 08-10. He was their guy to control the offense, he was their best perimeter defender, and he was the guy who they look for in the clutch. Not only did Wade brought the production that Pippen never achieved, he carried a team that people thought won't make it to the playoffs. Pippen could never do that to the extent of Wade. And if Pippen could score a lot, he would've in the seasons where Jordan wasn't there. Sometimes the Bulls would be missing a go to guy and a person who could score a lot, and Pippen was never that guy. Later on his career, around his prime, he shot at a worse percentage from the field and FT line. Especially in the playoffs.

Pippen was never a 25+ ppg guy. And if you think "Oh, if he take more shots?" then you might as well say that about a lot guys who average borderline 20 ppg. Pippen could average more points depending on the circumstances, but Pippen couldn't do it as the main option within the Bulls system, and that wasn't his game.

And Pippen didn't take over the game like other perimeter stars. Wilkins took over the games more than Pippen.

And I don't know what you mean by Pippen would be better taking Wade's role. I mean, I really doubt Pippen do what Wade did in 04-06 and 08-10. But if you are talking about current Miami Heat, then maybe. It's a give and take deal. People would be more incline to double team if Pippen was on the team and not Wade. But in turn, you'll have a more fluent team.

But I'm not saying Pippen was a srub, because he wasn't. He might've been the best SF out of the 90s. But I doubt Pippen is on Wade's level.
Wade has never been asked to do what pippen did for the bulls. He's never lead his team in every major category and still be the defensive menace that pippen was. And you obviously don't comprehend the energy it take to play the kind of defense pippen played. Noone could do what pippen did and still drop 27 ppg. And its just amazin the expectations people put on pippen. Last year, wade took a pretty solid team to 47 wins and a 1st round exit. Pippen in 95 had a farrrrrrrr worse team and had them on pace to win 44 games before jordan came back. And I still say 06 was great but pippen has never had the opportunity to lead a team with a player the caliber of 06 shaq as his running mate.

Just think about it. Let's say wade has the ball for 50 possessions. Out of those 50, he takes 18 shots, then he's fouled 5 time and the rest, he dribbli drives to the basket and kicks out to wide open shooters. That's about 25 passes. If his team hits 7 of those 25 shots he gets 7 assists. What he does isn't hard for an athlete of his magnitude.

And why do you say pippen couldn't take over games? In fact, pippen took over games in a variety of ways. Scoring? Go look at 91 game 5 vs lakers. Pippen not jordan took over the 3rd quarter with 13 points and finished with 32 pts 13 rbds, 7 assts, and 5 stls to close out the lakers. A game that the lakers were leading by the way. Passing and all around game? Check out game 6 of the 92 finals vs the blazers. It was pippens pg skills that lead the bulls all the way back from being down 15 pts in the 4th quarter of game 6 vs the trailblazers. How bout defense? 91 finals when jordan was in foul trouble and pippen shut down magic. Magic shot 31% that game and had 4 TOs. Pippen had 20 pts 5 rbds and 10 assists. Or how bout what he did to mark jackson and the pacers? I think pippen literally forced the pacers into 15 TOs by himself. What in hell do you mean he couldn't take over games? I know, cuz he didnt win a championship in 94 or 95 and he couldnt win a championship as a 36 year old player with a bad back and knees. Aside from 06, how many playoff games has wade taken over? And I mean playoff games. Big games. Not games in which he had a statsistically great game but a game that's career defining. Cuz pippen has alot of those kind of games.

[comerb]

BTW, Pippen is an 8 time All Defensive first teamer while Wade is a 3 time All Defensive second teamer.



This is because they've been sucking Kobe's rod for the past 4-5 years.

Wade should have at least 3-4 first team defensives at this point, he been a better defender than Kobe for a while now

[comerb]

I think it's abit short sighted to use hand checking rules to potentially buildup/teardown Wade/Pippin defensively... while ignoring the effects it would have had on Wades brand of offense.

He is certainly going to have a much tougher time getting to the hole in a league that allows hand checking. And Pippin did have a better parameter game.

Ultimately, I don't they can accurately be compared.

[97 bulls]

And even still, has any one seen wade fg% in those 6 games he played? He had 3 very good shooting games 1 mediocere and 2 atrocious. But he avg about 16 fts per in that series. He wasn't even all that impressive as far as his FT%.

[97 bulls]

I think it's abit short sighted to use hand checking rules to potentially buildup/teardown Wade/Pippin defensively... while ignoring the effects it would have had on Wades brand of offense.

He is certainly going to have a much tougher time getting to the hole in a league that allows hand checking. And Pippin did have a better parameter game.

Ultimately, I don't they can accurately be compared.
Id just like to add the total whores that meet wade and other perimeter players when he gets there. Past howard, there is one center that you fear driving to the rim nowadays in this league. When pippen of jordan drove, there were about 4 centers that were howards caliber defensively in mutombo, mourning, olajuwan, robinson, ewing and shaq . Im sorry 6. And another 15 that were solid.

[Smoke117]

That's not counter to the argument. Pippen would still be a top 5 defender in any era. Defenses always adjust. In fact, I think pippen would be even better defensively cuz he wouldn't have to worry about being called for illegal defense.

What made Pippen such a dominant defensive player and made him able to anchor a defense in 94 and 95 was not his one on one defense. (which was fantastic in it's own right) It was him basically having to be everywhere and playing some of the greatest help defense ever seen and having some of the finest defensive instincts ever seen. He was put on a lot players so he could roam off and use his length and athleticism to disrupt the opposing teams offense...kind of like he did vs the Jazz in the 97 and 98 finals when Jerry Sloan was getting pissed off saying Pippen was in fact playing illegal defense. He would be an even bigger menace now being allowed to roam as he pleased.

[jrong]

I think it's abit short sighted to use hand checking rules to potentially buildup/teardown Wade/Pippin defensively... while ignoring the effects it would have had on Wades brand of offense.

He is certainly going to have a much tougher time getting to the hole in a league that allows hand checking. And Pippin did have a better parameter game.

Ultimately, I don't they can accurately be compared.

The point was to invert the argument that is usually used against players like Wade in the era of no-handcheck. All I did was reverse the logic, and show that it works both ways.

---------------------------

97 Bulls, all your arguments are based on what you think Pippen would have/could have done. That's highly speculative, but we're dealing in reality. You can't argue what you think Pippen would have done against what Wade did do. Pippen never did those things, so move on.

I can play that game too. Wade would have/could have been the Jordan of this generation if he hadn't gotten hurt in the Game 5 of the 2005 ECFs and after the all-star-break in 2007. Because leading Shaq to a 3peat would have made him this generation's Jordan. But, it didn't happen, so I moved on.

Nobody is insulting Pippen. He's universally regarded as a top-50 player. But, Wade is a top 15 player. Soon enough you will have to accept that. And move on.

[Micku]

Wade has never been asked to do what pippen did for the bulls. He's never lead his team in every major category and still be the defensive menace that pippen was.And you obviously don't comprehend the energy it take to play the kind of defense pippen played. Noone could do what pippen did and still drop 27 ppg. And its just amazin the expectations people put on pippen. Last year, wade took a pretty solid team to 47 wins and a 1st round exit. Pippen in 95 had a farrrrrrrr worse team and had them on pace to win 44 games before jordan came back. And I still say 06 was great but pippen has never had the opportunity to lead a team with a player the caliber of 06 shaq as his running mate.

And this is where you overrate Pippen and underrate Wade.

Pippen never had the ability to score as much as Wade could. And Wade did defend the best perimeter player at the same scored. Wade attracted more attention to the defense and be the playmaker, he also had to find someway to score to keep his team in the game. However, Pippen couldn't do what Wade did when he had the chance. Even when the team needed a scorer, he couldn't convert. He just wasn't as good on the offensive end.

In 08-09 Wade lead his team in points, steals, assists, and he was the top guard blocker in the NBA if I can recall. And he was one of the few players who average at least 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season. This is something Pippen could not do. Very few players could. If he could, he would've.

As far as teams go, we don't what would happen. We don't know what would happen if you replace Wade with Pippen and vice versa. It depends on what the team need.

Like you would think Jordan would get more wins when he did when he first went to the Bulls like Bird when he first went to the Celtics. It didn't happen like that. Similar to Kareem, and other great players. It depends on the play style.


Just think about it. Let's say wade has the ball for 50 possessions. Out of those 50, he takes 18 shots, then he's fouled 5 time and the rest, he dribbli drives to the basket and kicks out to wide open shooters. That's about 25 passes. If his team hits 7 of those 25 shots he gets 7 assists. What he does isn't hard for an athlete of his magnitude.

Every slasher ever did that. But only few draw the defensive attention. Jordan did, LeBron did it, Magic did it, and Pippen could've done it. And Wade is a good playmaker as well as Pippen. I'm not arguing that, but Wade draws more defensive attention because he was the better offensive player. He also could finisher better. But I'm not arguing the passing skills. Pippen was a very good passer. He could be a better passer than Wade.



And why do you say pippen couldn't take over games? In fact, pippen took over games in a variety of ways. Scoring? Go look at 91 game 5 vs lakers. Pippen not jordan took over the 3rd quarter with 13 points and finished with 32 pts 13 rbds, 7 assts, and 5 stls to close out the lakers. A game that the lakers were leading by the way. Passing and all around game? Check out game 6 of the 92 finals vs the blazers. It was pippens pg skills that lead the bulls all the way back from being down 15 pts in the 4th quarter of game 6 vs the trailblazers. How bout defense? 91 finals when jordan was in foul trouble and pippen shut down magic. Magic shot 31% that game and had 4 TOs. Pippen had 20 pts 5 rbds and 10 assists. Or how bout what he did to mark jackson and the pacers? I think pippen literally forced the pacers into 15 TOs by himself. What in hell do you mean he couldn't take over games? I know, cuz he didnt win a championship in 94 or 95 and he couldnt win a championship as a 36 year old player with a bad back and knees. Aside from 06, how many playoff games has wade taken over? And I mean playoff games. Big games. Not games in which he had a statsistically great game but a game that's career defining. Cuz pippen has alot of those kind of games.

I said Pippen couldn't take over the games like other perimeter stars, not that Pippen couldn't take over games period. You got me wrong. He couldn't turn it on like Wade can and other superstars. There were a few times where he couldn't turn it, but he had to do it in other ways.

Plus, there are a lot of details about Pippen guarding Magic, but regardless, he did step up.

[DMAVS41]

The point was to invert the argument that is usually used against players like Wade in the era of no-handcheck. All I did was reverse the logic, and show that it works both ways.

---------------------------

97 Bulls, all your arguments are based on what you think Pippen would have/could have done. That's highly speculative, but we're dealing in reality. You can't argue what you think Pippen would have done against what Wade did do. Pippen never did those things, so move on.

I can play that game too. Wade would have/could have been the Jordan of this generation if he hadn't gotten hurt in the Game 5 of the 2005 ECFs and after the all-star-break in 2007. Because leading Shaq to a 3peat would have made him this generation's Jordan. But, it didn't happen, so I moved on.

Nobody is insulting Pippen. He's universally regarded as a top-50 player. But, Wade is a top 15 player. Soon enough you will have to accept that. And move on.

I have Pippen in my top 35.

Wade is on another level though....Wade's on his way to that top 15. At some point people will have to just accept. Oh that will be the day Wade actually gets acknowledged as an all time great player.

[97 bulls]

The point was to invert the argument that is usually used against players like Wade in the era of no-handcheck. All I did was reverse the logic, and show that it works both ways.

---------------------------

97 Bulls, all your arguments are based on what you think Pippen would have/could have done. That's highly speculative, but we're dealing in reality. You can't argue what you think Pippen would have done against what Wade did do. Pippen never did those things, so move on.

I can play that game too. Wade would have/could have been the Jordan of this generation if he hadn't gotten hurt in the Game 5 of the 2005 ECFs and after the all-star-break in 2007. Because leading Shaq to a 3peat would have made him this generation's Jordan. But, it didn't happen, so I moved on.

Nobody is insulting Pippen. He's universally regarded as a top-50 player. But, Wade is a top 15 player. Soon enough you will have to accept that. And move on.
Well why do you say wade is better? Your argument is just as specualtive. How do you know wade avg 27 ppg in the 90s? Pippen and wade played in totally different eras. And wade accomplished no where near what Pippen has. And at 29, he probably will never get an mvp. And id be willing to bet he wont win another finals mvp with james on this team. I do feel he will get 2 more championships. So if you feel 3 rings and a finals mvp trumps 6 , so be it. But I feel james is the best player on the heat. And will be finals mvp if and when the heat win their championships.

[97 bulls]

And this is where you overrate Pippen and underrate Wade.

Pippen never had the ability to score as much as Wade could. And Wade did defend the best perimeter player at the same scored. Wade attracted more attention to the defense and be the playmaker, he also had to find someway to score to keep his team in the game. However, Pippen couldn't do what Wade did when he had the chance. Even when the team needed a scorer, he couldn't convert. He just wasn't as good on the offensive end.

In 08-09 Wade lead his team in points, steals, assists, and he was the top guard blocker in the NBA if I can recall. And he was one of the few players who average at least 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season. This is something Pippen could not do. Very few players could. If he could, he would've.

As far as teams go, we don't what would happen. We don't know what would happen if you replace Wade with Pippen and vice versa. It depends on what the team need.

Like you would think Jordan would get more wins when he did when he first went to the Bulls like Bird when he first went to the Celtics. It didn't happen like that. Similar to Kareem, and other great players. It depends on the play style.



Every slasher ever did that. But only few draw the defensive attention. Jordan did, LeBron did it, Magic did it, and Pippen could've done it. And Wade is a good playmaker as well as Pippen. I'm not arguing that, but Wade draws more defensive attention because he was the better offensive player. He also could finisher better. But I'm not arguing the passing skills. Pippen was a very good passer. He could be a better passer than Wade.



I said Pippen couldn't take over the games like other perimeter stars, not that Pippen couldn't take over games period. You got me wrong. He couldn't turn it on like Wade can and other superstars. There were a few times where he couldn't turn it, but he had to do it in other ways.

Plus, there are a lot of details about Pippen guarding Magic, but regardless, he did step up.
What does it matter how a guy takes over a game? He took over according to his strengths. And sdtill I showed you a time in which he took over a game offensively. It wasn't the only time, but it was one of those type of games that define a career. I mean if the argument is that wade is a better scorer, then you'll get no argument from me. But that's not the argument. And to my recolection wade hasn't taken over very many games past the 3 games in 06. And has been embarrassed a few time even. I remember hinrich giving him all he could handle as the bulls put the heat out in the first round. In a sweep no less. I really don't see a difference in wades career minus his championship and pippen career mimus his 6 championshiips.

[97 bulls]

I have Pippen in my top 35.

Wade is on another level though....Wade's on his way to that top 15. At some point people will have to just accept. Oh that will be the day Wade actually gets acknowledged as an all time great player.
Why do you rank pippen so low?

[DMAVS41]

Why do you rank pippen so low?

What do you mean?

I rank him somewhere in that range from about 27 to 35. I don't think that is low at all.

[97 bulls]

What do you mean?

I rank him somewhere in that range from about 27 to 35. I don't think that is low at all.
And where do you rank dirk?

[DMAVS41]

And where do you rank dirk?

In the 25 to 30 range.

[97 bulls]

And wades on another level which means he's low 20s to high teens I assume.

[DMAVS41]

And wades on another level which means he's low 20s to high teens I assume.

Right now? Not really. Sorry for the confusion. I was projecting to where Wade will finish.

But yes, Wade is simply a better basketball player than either Dirk or Pippen in my opinion.

If he doesn't win some titles with Lebron, I'll have to go back on that....but I'm assuming he will.

I think Wade is going to finish in the top 15.

[97 bulls]

Right now? Not really. Sorry for the confusion. I was projecting to where Wade will finish.

But yes, Wade is simply a better basketball player than either Dirk or Pippen in my opinion.

If he doesn't win some titles with Lebron, I'll have to go back on that....but I'm assuming he will.

I think Wade is going to finish in the top 15.
Assuming he wins 2 more championships, and one finals mvp, id put him in the 20s. I just don't see what he's done to be ranked ranked any higher. Just another guy that's a great scorer and solid at a few other things. I guess my standards are high.

[Micku]

What does it matter how a guy takes over a game? He took over according to his strengths. And sdtill I showed you a time in which he took over a game offensively. It wasn't the only time, but it was one of those type of games that define a career. I mean if the argument is that wade is a better scorer, then you'll get no argument from me. But that's not the argument. And to my recolection wade hasn't taken over very many games past the 3 games in 06. And has been embarrassed a few time even. I remember hinrich giving him all he could handle as the bulls put the heat out in the first round. In a sweep no less. I really don't see a difference in wades career minus his championship and pippen career mimus his 6 championshiips.

Pippen actually had some pretty bad playoffs games and series. Way worse than Wade's playoffs record, but Pippen had his strength and did other things. And Wade did took over some games. He took over some games in the Hawks series. He had a great series with the Celtics, winning a game for them. He took over in the Piston games back in 05 and 06. He did things Pippen is not capable of doing.

But we'll see how Wade career will go. I think Wade has the talent and did somethings that Pippen never did, and his career isn't over yet. So, we'll see what happens.

[97 bulls]

Pippen actually had some pretty bad playoffs games and series. Way worse than Wade's playoffs record, but Pippen had his strength and did other things. And Wade did took over some games. He took over some games in the Hawks series. He had a great series with the Celtics, winning a game for them. He took over in the Piston games back in 05 and 06. He did things Pippen is not capable of doing.

But we'll see how Wade career will go. I think Wade has the talent and did somethings that Pippen never did, and his career isn't over yet. So, we'll see what happens.
Wade is 29. And his game is not condusive to playing at a high level over the next 5 years. I mean, look at kobe. I just thin wade is on the road to being overrated.

[jrong]

Wade is 29. And his game is not condusive to playing at a high level over the next 5 years. I mean, look at kobe. I just thin wade is on the road to being overrated.

Overrated? Wade already has the 3rd best career stats of any SG ever (25.4/5.1/6.3/1.8/1.0/48.5%). You know whose stats are better than Wade's at his position? The guy whose logo is on Wade's shoe and the guy whose logo is on the NBA insignia (and that guy played in a day when there were a lot more possessions to rack up stats).

Wade has the 9th highest scoring average of all-time and the 6th highest PER average. Overrated? Well, let's consider this. The majority of the media I guarantee hasn't even thought in terms of Wade's place in history. They don't consider him that way. Most of them would probably stop and scratch their heads if you asked them if he was a top 50 player. The whole story of the Miami Big 3 has been told from LeBron's perspective-- LeBron's quest to become one of the greats-- as if Wade were merely a supporting player in that narrative. The media, by and large, has not yet conceptualized of Wade as a player for whom "legacy" and "history" are relevant terms.

So overrated? Emphatically, no. Surreally underrated now and probably on track to be tragically underrated at the end of his career.

[Micku]

Wade is 29. And his game is not condusive to playing at a high level over the next 5 years. I mean, look at kobe. I just thin wade is on the road to being overrated.

We'll see how his career will go. I don't think he is overrated at all. I mean look at what's happening in the reward system in the NBA right now. It's better to see where he ranks after he retires though.

[97 bulls]

Overrated? Wade already has the 3rd best career stats of any SG ever (25.4/5.1/6.3/1.8/1.0/48.5%). You know whose stats are better than Wade's at his position? The guy whose logo is on Wade's shoe and the guy whose logo is on the NBA insignia (and that guy played in a day when there were a lot more possessions to rack up stats).

Wade has the 9th highest scoring average of all-time and the 6th highest PER average. Overrated? Well, let's consider this. The majority of the media I guarantee hasn't even thought in terms of Wade's place in history. They don't consider him that way. Most of them would probably stop and scratch their heads if you asked them if he was a top 50 player. The whole story of the Miami Big 3 has been told from LeBron's perspective-- LeBron's quest to become one of the greats-- as if Wade were merely a supporting player in that narrative. The media, by and large, has not yet conceptualized of Wade as a player for whom "legacy" and "history" are relevant terms.

So overrated? Emphatically, no. Surreally underrated now and probably on track to be tragically underrated at the end of his career.
His career stats will decline as he gets older just like every other player. And while he will go down as a great scorer, he wont go down as a top 5 anything aside from sg. Pippen is a top 5 defender as well as SF.

[B-Easy]

Assuming he wins 2 more championships, and one finals mvp, id put him in the 20s. I just don't see what he's done to be ranked ranked any higher. Just another guy that's a great scorer and solid at a few other things. I guess my standards are high.

Wade is more than solid all-around....Hes an elite passer, rebounder , shoblocker, steals .. etc.


Hes elite on man defense too .. but the media and a lot of fans love to discredit that part of his game.

[Lebron23]

Wade and LeBron are always been a superior player than Prime Scottie Pippen. He was a great 2nd scoring option, but Jordan was the engine that made the Bulls a dynasty in the 1990's.

I agree with Samuraiswoosh the Wade and LeBron duo reminds me of the Early 1980's Kareem-Magic, 2003-2004 Kobe and Shaq duo.

[97 bulls]

Wade and LeBron are always been a superior player than Prime Scottie Pippen. He was a great 2nd scoring option, but Jordan was the engine that made the Bulls a dynasty in the 1990's.

I agree with Samuraiswoosh the Wade and LeBron duo reminds me of the Early 1980's Kareem-Magic, 2003-2004 Kobe and Shaq duo.
Dwayne wade has done nothing to be considered better than pippen. He's just a flavor of the month. He can barely crack all-nba 1st teams. He only has 2 in his 7 year career. Maybe hell finish with 4 now that kobes aging. He's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs aside from 06. At least show 06 wasn't a fluke by following up with at least one second round appearance. He's had an injury plagued career, he's only cracked top 3 in mvp voting once. Like I said I guess my standards are just higher than you guys.

[Teanett]

since when is wade better than pippen?
are you guys crazy?

[97 bulls]

since when is wade better than pippen?
are you guys crazy?
The only reason I can think off is what he did in 06. Even this year his stats are similar to pippen.

Wade
26 ppg, 6 reb, 5 ast, 2 stls, 1 blk 50%/31/76 and very good defense

Pippen
20ppg, 7 reb, 7 ast, 3stls, 1 blk 49%/35/70 and all-time great defense.

And I think we all agree that pippens scoring numbers would be higher if he played in this era.

[B-Easy]

Dwayne wade has done nothing to be considered better than pippen. He's just a flavor of the month. He can barely crack all-nba 1st teams. He only has 2 in his 7 year career. Maybe hell finish with 4 now that kobes aging. He's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs aside from 06. At least show 06 wasn't a fluke by following up with at least one second round appearance. He's had an injury plagued career, he's only cracked top 3 in mvp voting once. Like I said I guess my standards are just higher than you guys.

really? .. all-nba 1st team? ..mvp votes?
who the hell cares about that stuff .. its all media driven. Wade wont make all-nba 1st team this year either .. even tho hes the best guard.

And Wade will never have an MVP like Rose, Dirk, Nash , etc ... even tho i can show multiple seasons by Wade better than their MVP years.

[catch24]

Dwayne wade has done nothing to be considered better than pippen. He's just a flavor of the month. He can barely crack all-nba 1st teams. He only has 2 in his 7 year career. Maybe hell finish with 4 now that kobes aging. He's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs aside from 06. At least show 06 wasn't a fluke by following up with at least one second round appearance. He's had an injury plagued career, he's only cracked top 3 in mvp voting once. Like I said I guess my standards are just higher than you guys.

Uh, what? Wade was the first player to ever accumulate 2000 points, 500 assist, 100 blocks, & 100 steals in ONE season (via '09--where he averaged 30ppg). Pippen could only dream of having hat type of production.

And these ALL-teams people continue to list are a joke. Kobe over Wade on offense and defense this year, really? Those 'honors' are extremely flawed; especially in todays game.

[DWade06]

Dwayne wade has done nothing to be considered better than pippen. He's just a flavor of the month. He can barely crack all-nba 1st teams. He only has 2 in his 7 year career. Maybe hell finish with 4 now that kobes aging. He's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs aside from 06. At least show 06 wasn't a fluke by following up with at least one second round appearance. He's had an injury plagued career, he's only cracked top 3 in mvp voting once. Like I said I guess my standards are just higher than you guys.
oh really a "flavor of the month" he hasn't made all nba first teams because he's UNDERRATED. He has the 3rd best sg stats EVER.

[bingo123]

Pippen wasnt on Wades level. He was just PERFECT sidekick to Jordan and I cant imagine one perimeter player that would be better in sidekick role. Without Jordan he is not even close to Wade.

[AlphaWolf24]

Pippen wasnt on Wades level. He was just PERFECT sidekick to Jordan and I cant imagine one perimeter player that would be better in sidekick role. Without Jordan he is not even close to Wade.


without Jordan = Led Chicago to 55 wins 2nd round Playoff's 3rd in MVP Voting, 5 winning seasons WCFinals in 2000, 3X all NBA Defensive team

Jordan without Pippen = led Chicago to 38 , 35 , 40 win seasons 1 - 10 playoff record (thats 1 win) 5 below .500 seasons never made the all defensive team



who made who again....at least who impacted the "team" more?

[97 bulls]

really? .. all-nba 1st team? ..mvp votes?
who the hell cares about that stuff .. its all media driven. Wade wont make all-nba 1st team this year either .. even tho hes the best guard.

And Wade will never have an MVP like Rose, Dirk, Nash , etc ... even tho i can show multiple seasons by Wade better than their MVP years.
Lol no you can't. Like said wade isn't desrving of top 10 status even with 3 championships. Again, your standards are just low.

[97 bulls]

Uh, what? Wade was the first player to ever accumulate 2000 points, 500 assist, 100 blocks, & 100 steals in ONE season (via '09--where he averaged 30ppg). Pippen could only dream of having hat type of production.

And these ALL-teams people continue to list are a joke. Kobe over Wade on offense and defense this year, really? Those 'honors' are extremely flawed; especially in todays game.
That's a great feat. But he's never lead his team in every majore gategory like pippen. Something that I believe only other player to do was wilt. Not bad company.

[canefandynasty]

That's a great feat. But he's never lead his team in every majore gategory like pippen. Something that I believe only other player to do was wilt. Not bad company.

Pippen is a better sidekick than Wade. Wade is a better 1st option. Pippen w/ LeBron would play more of a sidekick role. Wade is basically LeBrons equal on the Heat.

Pippen on the 2006 Heat won't win a 'ship for the fact that Pippen isn't nearly as offensively talented as Wade. I doubt Pippen would have even gotten past the Pistons that season.

[Javat_90]

Wow, the overrating of Scottie Pippen is simply reaching ridiculous levels. As much as I love Scottie, he is not on the same level as Wade.

Wade is a first option type of player, the third best SG in the history of the game judging by prime-play, and probably judging by career also. Lets deal with reality, not what if scenarios where we talk about what Pippen could have done in this era...etc etc. Fscts are facts.

Reality is, Pippen played 2 seasons as the team`s franchise player, from 1993 to 1995, and he did it pretty well, but he never reached the level of 08-09 Wade for example. That season right there has to be top-10 all time for a guard, definetely. Not to mention the supporting cast Pip had in 1994 for example, was way better than what Wade has had from 2008 to 2010. And he still managed to take the Miami Heat to the playoffs, even as the 5th or 6th seed.

Pippen is a great all-around player, but he is not a franchise player, let me repeat this: he is not a franchise player. He cant take over games like players like Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq...etc can. He is not a bad scorer, but he is simply not on that level.

Doing a simple comparison between Pippen`s and Wade`s game, the difference factor is clearly scoring, since they are equal in almost every other aspect. Pip might be the better rebounder to his size (but they will never ask a SG to grab 8 boards per game), id say they are equal passers (Pippen played as the facilitator in the triangle-offense, but lets get real, Wade is a great playmaker also), and Pip is probably the slightly better defender, again due to his size. But lets not forget the fact that Wade is one, if not the best shot-blocking guard of all time.

Like many have said, current Bron/Wade duo is more like the 03/04 Kobe-Shaq duo, rather than the 90s Jordan/Pippen duo.

[97 bulls]

Pippen is a better sidekick than Wade. Wade is a better 1st option. Pippen w/ LeBron would play more of a sidekick role. Wade is basically LeBrons equal on the Heat.

Pippen on the 2006 Heat won't win a 'ship for the fact that Pippen isn't nearly as offensively talented as Wade. I doubt Pippen would have even gotten past the Pistons that season.
The muthafer was sent to the line like 17 times a game. He's shot like garbage in 3 of those games too. And he had the best center in the league riding with him.

[DMAVS41]

Assuming he wins 2 more championships, and one finals mvp, id put him in the 20s. I just don't see what he's done to be ranked ranked any higher. Just another guy that's a great scorer and solid at a few other things. I guess my standards are high.

He has some of the best regular season and playoff numbers of all time.

He is top ten in regular season and playoff PER.

Wow. Sorry, but you are seriously under-rating Wade.

Where do you rank stockton all time? malone? barkley? baylor? west?

please answer.

2 more titles and another finlas MVP and he'd only be in the 20s? what.

This is what his career would look like:

25/6/5 on 49/29/77 on 57% TS in the regular season

26/6/6 on 48/34/80 on 57% TS in the playoffs

Top 10 PER of all time in both the regular season and playoffs.

3 titles and 2 finals MVPs.

And you'd have him in the 20s? What? That would put him in the top 12 ever. Arguably top ten.

[Papaya Petee]

97 Bulls you are arguing 1 on 10 and you are wrong

Wade's dominance, scoring ability, all around game> Pippen.

Nobody at 6'4 pound for pound plays as hard as Wade, aside from Prime AI

Shit, saying Pippen is as good as Wade is almost disrespectful

[Teanett]

wade is better than pippen at only one thing: playing 1 on 5 basketball.
but that's it and it won't win you 55 games with the 94 bulls.

[97 bulls]

QUOTE=Javat_90]Wow, the overrating of Scottie Pippen is simply reaching ridiculous levels. As much as I love Scottie, he is not on the same level as Wade.

Wade is a first option type of player, the third best SG in the history of the game judging by prime-play, and probably judging by career also. Lets deal with reality, not what if scenarios where we talk about what Pippen could have done in this era...etc etc. Fscts are facts.

Reality is, Pippen played 2 seasons as the team`s franchise player, from 1993 to 1995, and he did it pretty well, but he never reached the level of 08-09 Wade for example. That season right there has to be top-10 all time for a guard, definetely. Not to mention the supporting cast Pip had in 1994 for example, was way better than what Wade has had from 2008 to 2010. And he still managed to take the Miami Heat to the playoffs, even as the 5th or 6th seed.

Pippen is a great all-around player, but he is not a franchise player, let me repeat this: he is not a franchise player. He cant take over games like players like Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq...etc can. He is not a bad scorer, but he is simply not on that level.

Doing a simple comparison between Pippen`s and Wade`s game, the difference factor is clearly scoring, since they are equal in almost every other aspect. Pip might be the better rebounder to his size (but they will never ask a SG to grab 8 boards per game), id say they are equal passers (Pippen played as the facilitator in the triangle-offense, but lets get real, Wade is a great playmaker also), and Pip is probably the slightly better defender, again due to his size. But lets not forget the fact that Wade is one, if not the best shot-blocking guard of all time.

Like many have said, current Bron/Wade duo is more like the 03/04 Kobe-Shaq duo, rather than the 90s Jordan/Pippen duo.[/QUOTE]
Lol ok. The fact is that pippen has WON 6 championships. And 2 gold medals. Has more all-nba teams, more all defense teams. And is regarded as arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.

Wade has 1 scoring title, one finals mvp. And 1 gold medal ( he was on the first dream team to loose in the olympics).

These are the facts. Scottie pippen is more accomplished than wade.

And I like the way you don't want pippens situation qualified and put into context but then make wades career circumstamtial. What a hypocrite

[97 bulls]

He has some of the best regular season and playoff numbers of all time.

He is top ten in regular season and playoff PER.

Wow. Sorry, but you are seriously under-rating Wade.

Where do you rank stockton all time? malone? barkley? baylor? west?

please answer.

2 more titles and another finlas MVP and he'd only be in the 20s? what.

This is what his career would look like:

25/6/5 on 49/29/77 on 57% TS in the regular season

26/6/6 on 48/34/80 on 57% TS in the playoffs

Top 10 PER of all time in both the regular season and playoffs.

3 titles and 2 finals MVPs.

And you'd have him in the 20s? What? That would put him in the top 12 ever. Arguably top ten.
Wade career stats will decline just like everybody elses. Your comparing wades prime vs other players total career avgs. Trust me, they will decline as he ages.

Barkley, malone and co are all top teens. Stock in the 30s. And I guarantee you james will win the finals mvp over wade.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls you are arguing 1 on 10 and you are wrong

Wade's dominance, scoring ability, all around game> Pippen.

Nobody at 6'4 pound for pound plays as hard as Wade, aside from Prime AI

Shit, saying Pippen is as good as Wade is almost disrespectful
Lol yeah 10 heat fans. But it doesn't matter, I don't need people on insidehoops to validate my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

Wade career stats will decline just like everybody elses. Your comparing wades prime vs other players total career avgs. Trust me, they will decline as he ages.

Barkley, malone and co are all top teens. Stock in the 30s. And I guarantee you james will win the finals mvp over wade.

You were the one that listed the hypothetical of wade winning 2 more titles and a finals MVP.

And of course we use context on career averages....

Otherwise:

Pippen's 16/6/5 is nothing special at all. But his prime play and peak play is enough to put him in the top 30 or so all time.

If wade plays at a high level for a 3 or 4 more years he's going to have as many elite years as a lot of the all time greats like Bird. Its all about context.

But even if his numbers drop to:

24/4/5 on high efficiency.....3 titles and 2 finals mvps as you stated in the hypothetical would be enough to put him in the top 15 all time.

[97 bulls]

You were the one that listed the hypothetical of wade winning 2 more titles and a finals MVP.

And of course we use context on career averages....

Otherwise:

Pippen's 16/6/5 is nothing special at all. But his prime play and peak play is enough to put him in the top 30 or so all time.

If wade plays at a high level for a 3 or 4 more years he's going to have as many elite years as a lot of the all time greats like Bird. Its all about context.

But even if his numbers drop to:

24/4/5 on high efficiency.....3 titles and 2 finals mvps as you stated in the hypothetical would be enough to put him in the top 15 all time.
I don't think hell be putting up 24 ppg withing the next few years. He hit 25 at 29 years old. And this is supposed to be his prime. I think hell put up similar numbers to this year for a couple more seasons, then his minutes will be cut and thus his avgs. And lets say barring injury, he plays another 7 years probably? His career avg are gonna drop like a rock.

And why do people talk as if its so easy to win multiple championships? Very few teams have been able to do it. There's so many varibales that you just can't factor in. I remember laker fan saying the kobe/gasol lakers were gonna win about 4 championships. Back in 09. Right now, it looks like they're championship opportunitues have been slammed shut. Its not a given that the heat win past this year.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think hell be putting up 24 ppg withing the next few years. He hit 25 at 29 years old. And this is supposed to be his prime. I think hell put up similar numbers to this year for a couple more seasons, then his minutes will be cut and thus his avgs. And lets say barring injury, he plays another 7 years probably? His career avg are gonna drop like a rock.

And why do people talk as if its so easy to win multiple championships? Very few teams have been able to do it. There's so many varibales that you just can't factor in. I remember laker fan saying the kobe/gasol lakers were gonna win about 4 championships. Back in 09. Right now, it looks like they're championship opportunitues have been slammed shut. Its not a given that the heat win past this year.

What?

We never said it was a lock.

You created the hypothetical. Not me.

You said the following:

If he wins 2 more titles and another finals MVP i'd put him in the 20s.



That is what you said. And if he does that, he's going to be a top 15 player ever.

Who knows what the future holds. I was simply answering your hypothetical that you created.

Thats all.

[97 bulls]

What?

We never said it was a lock.

You created the hypothetical. Not me.

You said the following:

If he wins 2 more titles and another finals MVP i'd put him in the 20s.



That is what you said. And if he does that, he's going to be a top 15 player ever.

Who knows what the future holds. I was simply answering your hypothetical that you created.

Thats all.
So what? I fail to see your point. I was responding to you feeling he's higher than pippen now based on his prime avgs. I just said, if he plays 18 years, those prime avgs are gonna drop. And hell finish right around 20 ppg 5 rbbd and 5 asts. And im being generous. As of right now, one championship and finals mvp as well. As him leading the league in scoring one year doesn't trump even 3 of pippens championships, much less 6. And what's more, is that he's been ousted time after time in the first round. And in the sorry ass eastern conference no less. And he's been plagued with injuries throughout his career.

How is that greater than pippen? Would you trade 1 finals mvp and scoring tile for 5 championships? If you wouldn't then your a fool.

[Micku]

I don't think hell be putting up 24 ppg withing the next few years. He hit 25 at 29 years old. And this is supposed to be his prime. I think hell put up similar numbers to this year for a couple more seasons, then his minutes will be cut and thus his avgs. And lets say barring injury, he plays another 7 years probably? His career avg are gonna drop like a rock.


We'll see. I think his numbers will go down as he get older, but the whole big 3 of Miami getting together cause their numbers to go down. We'll see where he ends up.

In Pippen vs Wade argument, there is something that Wade has done that Pippen has never done. He has lead his team to a title and put numbers in the Finals that Pippen never did or could do. Even in the playoffs, Wade did more with his team that Pippen couldn't. Wade has more talent than Pippen overall. It's hard to put Pippen over Wade to me. He was more of a 1st option than Pippen. However, Pippen has more rewards in his career.

But you said that Wade was getting overrated. I'm not sure about that when Rose is getting more votes for being in the all defensive team than Wade. I mean, come on.

It's hard for Wade to be a complementary player like Pippen. Pippen would be great in most teams with a 1st option. He is good enough to lead his own team a bit. He had a year and half of what he could do, was complaining that he was being underrated. He showed us what he could do in the Bulls and later. Maybe he would've been better in another system/team? Who knows.

[chains5000]

Talking JUST about stats, Wade and Lebron may be ahead.
Talking about actual play, everybody will agree that, being individually better or not, the Jordan-Pippen duo was more complete and had better chemistry, resulting in being better IMO.

Of course, it's only Wade and Lebron's first year together, so who knows...

(My money is on Jordan and Pippen though)

[DMAVS41]

So what? I fail to see your point. I was responding to you feeling he's higher than pippen now based on his prime avgs. I just said, if he plays 18 years, those prime avgs are gonna drop. And hell finish right around 20 ppg 5 rbbd and 5 asts. And im being generous. As of right now, one championship and finals mvp as well. As him leading the league in scoring one year doesn't trump even 3 of pippens championships, much less 6. And what's more, is that he's been ousted time after time in the first round. And in the sorry ass eastern conference no less. And he's been plagued with injuries throughout his career.

How is that greater than pippen? Would you trade 1 finals mvp and scoring tile for 5 championships? If you wouldn't then your a fool.

I never said that actually. I said I was projecting. Right now I rank wade and pippen in the same tier as players.

I said that I believe Wade to be the superior player, but Wade has to continue to play at a high level like this and has to win a couple titles to prove that. I even told you before in this thread that I was projecting where I think Wade will end up.

You know I love Pippen. I have defended him here time and time again saying he was definitely good enough to lead a team to a title in my opinion.

I just feel Wade is a better player and will finish on a higher tier than Pippen. If Wade gets hurt, or his play falls off, or he and Lebron never win.....then that won't be true of course.

Again. I was answering your hypothetical. And in your hypothetical if 3 titles and 2 finals mvps for wade.....he's a top 15 player.

Even if his numbers do drop a little. His number right now are downright amazing. He has better career averages than Kobe Bryant for example.

Its not a knock on Pippen, but Wade through his first 8 years in on his way to becoming one of the truly elite players of all time. I just don't think Pippen belongs in that conversation. And maybe Wade won't do enough from here on in to belong in it either....but so far Wade is on track to be in that top 15 or top 10 discussion.

[Smoke117]

Scottie's game and stats are actually hindered by playing in the triangle offense. I don't really see the whole: "well he was playing with jordan" logic, but it's more the system. I don't think a lot of people realize how good of a point guard Pippen was. When he was drafted and interviewed he said from the beginning that he expected to be a pg...problem is, is that the triangle offense doesn't really have a legitimate pg...he started offensive schemes at the top, but it's a passing offense. I used to watch the Blazers a lot when he was on the team and that was about the only time that he got to actually be a true ball dominant pg, particularly in 2002 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 years old. If he can do that at 36 I don't see how he could not have averaged 8-10apg regularly in an offense where he was allowed to be ball dominant. He was an excellent pg to...he had such a calming effect on that Blazers team and whenever he went out the entire offense would fall apart. Scottie is easily the closest player to a Magic Johnson.

Besides that, the triangle offense is a slow, calculated offense. The Bulls were regularly 20 or higher in pace. What was Pippen's best attribute offensively? His ability in the open court. He was literally a one man fast break...he could handle the ball, he had the athleticism and length to get to one end to the other quicker than pretty much anyone, and he finished with the best of them...you replace Pippen with Marion on the Suns or Carmelo on the Nuggets and he would easily average 25ppg in those up tempo systems. He would just average more points from going to the ft line more...though ironically he never got any calls when he was with the Bulls (that could be the Jordan effect) and would get hammered regularly with no calls...though considering he just finished over everyone it usually didn't matter. On a side note, there's another thing I miss...seeing players play to score at the rim and not to get the foul. Scottie went to the rim with bad intentions and if you were in the way you were going to be a poster.

He also had a very solid post up game that he never got to utilize much. Anyway like I said, if Scottie had played outside of the triangle offense during his prime I'm positive his numbers would have been a lot higher...particularly his assist if he was being the teams PG.

[DMAVS41]

Scottie's game and stats are actually hindered by playing in the triangle offense. I don't really see the whole: "well he was playing with jordan" logic, but it's more the system. I don't think a lot of people realize how good of a point guard Pippen was. When he was drafted and interviewed he said from the beginning that he expected to be a pg...problem is, is that the triangle offense doesn't really have legitimate pg...he started offensive schemes at the top, but it's a passing offense. I used to watch the Blazers a lot when he was on the team and that was about the only time that he got to actually be a true ball dominant pg, particularly in 2002 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 years old. If he can do that at 36 I don't see how he could not have averaged 8-10apg regularly in an offense where he was allowed to be ball dominant. He was an excellent pg to...he had such a calming effect on that Blazers team and whenever he went out the entire offense would fall apart. Scottie is easily the closest player to a Magic Johnson.

Besides that, the triangle offense is a slow, calculated offense. The Bulls were regularly 20 or higher in pace. What was Pippen's best attribute offensively? His ability in the open court. He was literally a one man fast break...he could handle the ball, he had the athleticism and length to get to one end to the other quicker than pretty much anyone, and he finished with the best of them...you replace Pippen with Marion on the Suns or Carmelo on the Nuggets and he would easily average 25ppg in those up tempo systems. He would just average more points from going to the ft line more...though ironically he never got any calls when he was with the Bulls (that could be the Jordan effect) and would get hammered regularly with no calls...though considering he just finished over everyone it usually didn't matter. There's another thing...I miss seeing players play to score at the rim and not to get the foul. Scottie went to the rim with bad intentions and if you were in the way you were going to be a poster.

Anyway like I said, if Scottie had played outside of the triangle offense during his prime I'm positive his numbers would have been a lot higher...particularly his assist if he was being the teams PG.


For sure.

Pippen is definitely better than his numbers.

[97 bulls]

I never said that actually. I said I was projecting. Right now I rank wade and pippen in the same tier as players.

I said that I believe Wade to be the superior player, but Wade has to continue to play at a high level like this and has to win a couple titles to prove that. I even told you before in this thread that I was projecting where I think Wade will end up.

You know I love Pippen. I have defended him here time and time again saying he was definitely good enough to lead a team to a title in my opinion.

I just feel Wade is a better player and will finish on a higher tier than Pippen. If Wade gets hurt, or his play falls off, or he and Lebron never win.....then that won't be true of course.

Again. I was answering your hypothetical. And in your hypothetical if 3 titles and 2 finals mvps for wade.....he's a top 15 player.

Even if his numbers do drop a little. His number right now are downright amazing. He has better career averages than Kobe Bryant for example.

Its not a knock on Pippen, but Wade through his first 8 years in on his way to becoming one of the truly elite players of all time. I just don't think Pippen belongs in that conversation. And maybe Wade won't do enough from here on in to belong in it either....but so far Wade is on track to be in that top 15 or top 10 discussion.
I honestly don't think he will get another finals mvp. Championships yes, finals mvp are going to james. The league needs james as their poster boy. And you still are comparing wades statistical prime to guys whole career. Take away kobes first few years where he rarley played and his production is higher than wades. And that goes for alot if not all players. That's why you should stay away from that comparison.

I think the wade will finish with 3 rings and 1 finals mvp. Thus ill ask again. Would you trade away 3 championships for the opportunity to win 1 finals mvp and a scoring title?

Look guys, understand I like wade. And if the bulls don't win, id love to see the heat do it. And I have no problem with people who feel wade is better than pippen. But its just plain nuts to say comparing pippen to wade is disrespectful. Or that pippen is nowhere near wade? Come on. And what's this based on?

Dominance? Wade hasn't been passed the first round in 5 years. He's had 1 amazing season. In an era in which the perimeter player is catered too. Andre iguodala has lead a team to a playoff birth. But I hear people saying that wades team weren't good. But then knock pippen for not winning in 94 or 95 when he clearly didn't have the team to compete for a championship.

Stats? So what? What were the results? Wades had the luxery of not having to share the ball with a player that dominated the ball like jordan. I already posted that the difference in scoring between wade with james, and pippen with jordan is about 4 pts. And that's not accounting for the drasticly diferent rules that make it easier for wade to score. Meanwhile pippen beats him at everything else.

You guys are a bunch of hypocrites

[DMAVS41]

I honestly don't think he will get another finals mvp. Championships yes, finals mvp are going to james. The league needs james as their poster boy. And you still are comparing wades statistical prime to guys whole career. Take away kobes first few years where he rarley played and his production is higher than wades. And that goes for alot if not all players. That's why you should stay away from that comparison.

I think the wade will finish with 3 rings and 1 finals mvp. Thus ill ask again. Would you trade away 3 championships for the opportunity to win 1 finals mvp and a scoring title?

Look guys, understand I like wade. And if the bulls don't win, id love to see the heat do it. And I have no problem with people who feel wade is better than pippen. But its just plain nuts to say comparing pippen to wade is disrespectful. Or that pippen is nowhere near wade? Come on. And what's this based on?

Dominance? Wade hasn't been passed the first round in 5 years. He's had 1 amazing season. In an era in which the perimeter player is catered too. Andre iguodala has lead a team to a playoff birth. But I hear people saying that wades team weren't good. But then knock pippen for not winning in 94 or 95 when he clearly didn't have the team to compete for a championship.

Stats? So what? What were the results? Wades had the luxery of not having to share the ball with a player that dominated the ball like jordan. I already posted that the difference in scoring between wade with james, and pippen with jordan is about 4 pts. And that's not accounting for the drasticly diferent rules that make it easier for wade to score. Meanwhile pippen beats him at everything else.

You guys are a bunch of hypocrites

I hope this post isn't directed at me. I have never said any of those things and never said it was disrespectful to compare Pippen to Wade.

Damn....I just posted that I rank them in the same tier right now.

I don't judge players solely on titles and I don't care about accolades much at all.

To me, I think Wade is the better player both statistically and with the "eye test"...........

But I have never said its a huge gap or something....especially now.

Do you feel the same way about Kobe vs. Pippen? Because everything you are saying about Wade is true with Kobe. The only difference is that Kobe had the luxury to play with prime Shaq for 8 years.

So I don't really follow your line of thinking much.....especially when we are talking about Wade winning a couple more titles.

Given the circumstances of their careers, Wade having 3 titles and 2 finals mvps and slightly better numbers is as good or better than Kobe's resume.

So do you feel the same way about a Pippen vs Kobe debate?

[97 bulls]

Scottie's game and stats are actually hindered by playing in the triangle offense. I don't really see the whole: "well he was playing with jordan" logic, but it's more the system. I don't think a lot of people realize how good of a point guard Pippen was. When he was drafted and interviewed he said from the beginning that he expected to be a pg...problem is, is that the triangle offense doesn't really have a legitimate pg...he started offensive schemes at the top, but it's a passing offense. I used to watch the Blazers a lot when he was on the team and that was about the only time that he got to actually be a true ball dominant pg, particularly in 2002 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 years old. If he can do that at 36 I don't see how he could not have averaged 8-10apg regularly in an offense where he was allowed to be ball dominant. He was an excellent pg to...he had such a calming effect on that Blazers team and whenever he went out the entire offense would fall apart. Scottie is easily the closest player to a Magic Johnson.

Besides that, the triangle offense is a slow, calculated offense. The Bulls were regularly 20 or higher in pace. What was Pippen's best attribute offensively? His ability in the open court. He was literally a one man fast break...he could handle the ball, he had the athleticism and length to get to one end to the other quicker than pretty much anyone, and he finished with the best of them...you replace Pippen with Marion on the Suns or Carmelo on the Nuggets and he would easily average 25ppg in those up tempo systems. He would just average more points from going to the ft line more...though ironically he never got any calls when he was with the Bulls (that could be the Jordan effect) and would get hammered regularly with no calls...though considering he just finished over everyone it usually didn't matter. There's another thing...I miss seeing players play to score at the rim and not to get the foul. Scottie went to the rim with bad intentions and if you were in the way you were going to be a poster.

He also had a very solid post up game that he never got to utilize much. Anyway like I said, if Scottie had played outside of the triangle offense during his prime I'm positive his numbers would have been a lot higher...particularly his assist if he was being the teams PG.
Exactly. And dont forget, not only did jordan, the offense the bulls ran and pippens role on the team hinder him. But the othere teams did too. Team just did not look to run in the 90s. I always say if pippen played in the 80s, he'd avg 24, 8rbds and 8 assts. And thts in the triangle. That's just cuz the league ran more.

[Smoke117]

I think the thing that he gets said about players that is mostly bull is that this or that player makes other players around him better. PIPPEN ACTUALLY DID MAKE OTHER PLAYERS AROUND HIM BETTER. You think the "JailBlazers" era was implosive? They would have completely fallen apart without Pippen. In 1994 he could have shot and scored more, but he saw that, that wasn't going to work without Jordan. You can't just replace 30pts by yourself, so he went out to raise the teams play as a whole. That 1994 Bulls team played some of the best team basketball I've ever seen. Defensively he was about as good as leader as you could find shouting at teammates to be where they needed to be covering up pretty much everyone's mistakes and actually keeping a bunch of bums he had in 95 competent defensively by sheer effort. I still can't believe he was screwed out of the DPOY award in 95 because Mutombo averaged 4 blocks...pshh. There's stories about how he used to call out the play an opposing team was going to run before they even knew what they were going to run lol. He had a tremendous basketball IQ. I've always thought he would make a great coach.

[97 bulls]

I hope this post isn't directed at me. I have never said any of those things and never said it was disrespectful to compare Pippen to Wade.

Damn....I just posted that I rank them in the same tier right now.

I don't judge players solely on titles and I don't care about accolades much at all.

To me, I think Wade is the better player both statistically and with the "eye test"...........

But I have never said its a huge gap or something....especially now.

Do you feel the same way about Kobe vs. Pippen? Because everything you are saying about Wade is true with Kobe. The only difference is that Kobe had the luxury to play with prime Shaq for 8 years.

So I don't really follow your line of thinking much.....especially when we are talking about Wade winning a couple more titles.

Given the circumstances of their careers, Wade having 3 titles and 2 finals mvps and slightly better numbers is as good or better than Kobe's resume.

So do you feel the same way about a Pippen vs Kobe debate?
I know I was respnoding to your post but not everything I said was directed at you. However, I do feel you lean more on the side of the better scorer though. Like I said, I just don't see where the wade dominance comes from? He could barely lead teams to the playoffs in a terrible eastern conference. Minus 06 where he had the best center in the game.

In response to kobe, why do you feel wade is better? Or I should say more accomplished? Kobe has 2 scoring titles, an mvp, 2 finals mvp and 5 championships. And he has more all nba and defense awards. Obviously all players are victims of circumstance, but at least wade has had multiple years to prove 06 wasn't a fluke. Pippen didn't. And he's done farrr more with farrrrr less. Look at last year, wade had a better team than pippen in 95 and could only achieve 47 victories in a weak conference.

[Rnbizzle]

Jordan/Pippen obviously gets the nod ..

No they don't. If you look at the things they've achieved, yes. Talent wise? Not even close.

[97 bulls]

I think the thing that he gets said about players that is mostly bull is that this or that player makes other players around him better. PIPPEN ACTUALLY DID MAKE OTHER PLAYERS AROUND HIM BETTER. You think the "JailBlazers" era was implosive? They would have completely fallen apart without Pippen. In 1994 he could have shot and scored more, but he saw that, that wasn't going to work without Jordan. You can't just replace 30pts by yourself, so he went out to raise the teams play as a whole. That 1994 Bulls team played some of the best team basketball I've ever seen. Defensively he was about as good as leader as you could find shouting at teammates to be where they needed to be covering up pretty much everyone's mistakes and actually keeping a bunch of bums he had in 95 competent defensively by sheer effort. I still can't believe he was screwed out of the DPOY award in 95 because Mutombo averaged 4 blocks...pshh. There's stories about how he used to call out the play an opposing team was going to run before they even knew what they were going to run lol. He had a tremendous basketball IQ. I've always thought he would make a great coach.
All too true. Great job smoke. If pippen played in this era, he'd have at least 3 dpoys. Unfortunaly competing against the greatest collection of centers ever and politics denied him that. And I firmly believe he should've won the mvp in 94. Again, based on the criteria today, he would've. What pip did in 94 was farrrr more impressive than what rose did this year or nash the year amare was injured.

[97 bulls]

No they don't. If you look at the things they've achieved, yes. Talent wise? Not even close.
See what im saying dirk41? Dumb shit like this post.

[DMAVS41]

I know I was respnoding to your post but not everything I said was directed at you. However, I do feel you lean more on the side of the better scorer though. Like I said, I just don't see where the wade dominance comes from? He could barely lead teams to the playoffs in a terrible eastern conference. Minus 06 where he had the best center in the game.

In response to kobe, why do you feel wade is better? Or I should say more accomplished? Kobe has 2 scoring titles, an mvp, 2 finals mvp and 5 championships. And he has more all nba and defense awards. Obviously all players are victims of circumstance, but at least wade has had multiple years to prove 06 wasn't a fluke. Pippen didn't. And he's done farrr more with farrrrr less. Look at last year, wade had a better team than pippen in 95 and could only achieve 47 victories in a weak conference.

I feel Wade is as good or slightly better of a player than Kobe. I never said he was more accomplished.

Wade has better career regular season and playoff numbers. Wade had more success with similar teams against similar competition. Wade's play against the best teams/defenses is superior to Kobe's. Wade is more efficient. Wade is a better play maker.

Wade has one of the best finals performances under his belt. Can't take the bold seriously. Those accolades have become a joke.

You seem to still be confused. We are debating this on the hypothetical that Wade wins a couple more titles.

How many times do I have to tell you that I have Wade and Pippen in the same tier right now and until Wade proves he can keep this up and win titles on a stacked team....he stays there.

And you seriously discount Wade. Even as a rookie, he was helping lead his team to a first round victory and actually played the pacers very tough in the 2nd round. In his next year he was on the verge of beating the 04 champs before he got hurt. In 06 he led his team to the title. 07 and 08 were marred with injuries and poor teams. The last three years Wade has been crazy good posting insane numbers. Averaging around this over that 3 year span:

28 points 6 assists 5 boards on 49% shooting while playing elite defense.


So let me be clear. Right now I have Wade and Pippen in the same tier. IF....IF Wade continues this play for a few more years and wins a couple more titles, he will be in the top 15 or so all time and on a different tier than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

I feel Wade is as good or slightly better of a player than Kobe. I never said he was more accomplished.

Wade has better career regular season and playoff numbers. Wade had more success with similar teams against similar competition. Wade's play against the best teams/defenses is superior to Kobe's. Wade is more efficient. Wade is a better play maker.

Wade has one of the best finals performances under his belt. Can't take the bold seriously. Those accolades have become a joke.

You seem to still be confused. We are debating this on the hypothetical that Wade wins a couple more titles.

How many times do I have to tell you that I have Wade and Pippen in the same tier right now and until Wade proves he can keep this up and win titles on a stacked team....he stays there.

And you seriously discount Wade. Even as a rookie, he was helping lead his team to a first round victory and actually played the pacers very tough in the 2nd round. In his next year he was on the verge of beating the 04 champs before he got hurt. In 06 he led his team to the title. 07 and 08 were marred with injuries and poor teams. The last three years Wade has been crazy good posting insane numbers. Averaging around this over that 3 year span:

28 points 6 assists 5 boards on 49% shooting while playing elite defense.


So let me be clear. Right now I have Wade and Pippen in the same tier. IF....IF Wade continues this play for a few more years and wins a couple more titles, he will be in the top 15 or so all time and on a different tier than Pippen.
Sorry dirk, even with 2 more rings he's not in the top 15. Id like for you to make a list of you top 15 with wade included. Maybe id bump him a few slots ahead of pippen but not top 15. And my criteria is different from yours. Im not gonna knock pippen cuz of the circumstances of his career. That's why I go more by talent and abilities as opposed to overall accomplishments.

[DMAVS41]

Sorry dirk, even with 2 more rings he's not in the top 15. Id like for you to make a list of you top 15 with wade included. Maybe id bump him a few slots ahead of pippen but not top 15. And my criteria is different from yours. Im not gonna knock pippen cuz of the circumstances of his career. That's why I go more by talent and abilities as opposed to overall accomplishments.

I go by the same things actually.

Did you see Dr. J play? Because he's not better than wade in terms of talent and abilities.

My top 15 if Wade wins 2 more titles and another finals MVP and plays 4 more years at an elite level....assuming Lebron keeps it up as well I will include him

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Lebron
11. Wade
12. Kobe
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Havlicek

With guys like Pettit/Baylor/Moses/Dr. J/Kg/Barkley/Malone all right behind them.

[97 bulls]

I go by the same things actually.

Did you see Dr. J play? Because he's not better than wade in terms of talent and abilities.

My top 15 if Wade wins 2 more titles and another finals MVP and plays 4 more years at an elite level....assuming Lebron keeps it up as well I will include him

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Lebron
11. Wade
12. Kobe
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Havlicek

With guys like Pettit/Baylor/Moses/Dr. J/Kg/Barkley/Malone all right behind them.
Lol wow. He'd be ranked 11? Good lawd lol. That's wayyyy to high. Especially when his only personal accomplishment is leading the league in scoring once and a finals mvp. Geeze.

I just checked, right now, wades per game scoring avg has him at 6 all-time vs other SGs. With 25 ppg. I think hell finish at around 23 ppg. His stats aren't any different from guys like west, drexler, bryant, iverson and a few others. I just don't see it.

Ok, what if he doesn't win another fianls mvp? But gets 2 championships with the heat. And avg 24 6 and 6 on 49%. Where would you rank him?

[DMAVS41]

Lol wow. He'd be ranked 11? Good lawd lol. That's wayyyy to high. Especially when his only personal accomplishment is leading the league in scoring once and a finals mvp. Geeze.

I just checked, right now, wades per game scoring avg has him at 6 all-time vs other SGs. With 25 ppg. I think hell finish at around 23 ppg. His stats aren't any different from guys like west, drexler, bryant, iverson and a few others. I just don't see it.

Ok, what if he doesn't win another fianls mvp? But gets 2 championships with the heat. And avg 24 6 and 6 on 49%. Where would you rank him?

I don't see why.

You act like West (in everyone's top 15 ever and usually in the top 12) would have a much better case. Why?

Oscar?
Moses?
Kobe?

All in the same tier. It just becomes personal preference. If wade played that many elite years and ended with 3 titles and 2 finals mvps.


If he averaged 24/6/6 on 49% shooting with 3 titles and a finals MVP and played 5 more years?

I'd put him around the same tier.

What aren't you getting? What makes West/Oscar/Kobe any better if Wade has all of that and good longevity?

Please answer.

[97 bulls]

I don't see why.

You act like West (in everyone's top 15 ever and usually in the top 12) would have a much better case. Why?

Oscar?
Moses?
Kobe?

All in the same tier. It just becomes personal preference. If wade played that many elite years and ended with 3 titles and 2 finals mvps.


If he averaged 24/6/6 on 49% shooting with 3 titles and a finals MVP and played 5 more years?

I'd put him around the same tier.

What aren't you getting? What makes West/Oscar/Kobe any better if Wade has all of that and good longevity?

Please answer.
Cuz the guys you mentioned were alll at some point the best player in the league at some point in their career. Wades never reached that status.

[DMAVS41]

Cuz the guys you mentioned were alll at some point the best player in the league at some point in their career. Wades never reached that status.

According to who? You? Not sure if Wade wasn't the best player in 09 or 10 or 11. Top 3 all those years for sure.

LOL.

Its hard isn't it. This is why Wade is so under-rated and why advanced stats that adjust for pace and other factors are so great.

You act like ranking wade at 11 is crazy. But look at the other players. West/Oscar/Kobe/Dr. J/Havlicek are all definitely debatable in this hypothetical.

And those guys are all right in that same tier. So its not absurd at all. Wade just gets grossly under-rated for some absurd reason. We saw it this year. Wade was clearly a better player than Kobe this year on both ends. Yet Kobe got more mvp points, first team all defense, and first team all nba.

LOL

[canefandynasty]

Wade is severly underrated. If he wins title and FMVP this season he is TOP 20 at worst.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yeah, it's crazy how underrated Dwade is. I just can't understand why given that his game is great, but also one of the most aesthetically pleasing EVER. I think the injuries and poor Heat teams perhaps caused him to fall off of some people's radar but anyone who truly analyzes the game knows how great he's been.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, it's crazy how underrated Dwade is. I just can't understand why given that his game is great, but also one of the most aesthetically pleasing EVER. I think the injuries and poor Heat teams perhaps caused him to fall off of some people's radar but anyone who truly analyzes the game knows how great he's been.

for sure.

and in this debate we are talking about Wade playing another 5 good years after his one and winning 2 more titles and another finals mvp.

so Wade would have:

13 years played

somewhere around 25/5/5 for his career in the playoffs and regular season.
top ten PER in playoffs and regular season

3 titles
2 finals mvps

1 of the greatest finals ever

LOL at anyone thinking that its absurd to rank wade amongst the truly best to ever play the game if that happened.

[97 bulls]

According to who? You? Not sure if Wade wasn't the best player in 09 or 10 or 11. Top 3 all those years for sure.

LOL.

Its hard isn't it. This is why Wade is so under-rated and why advanced stats that adjust for pace and other factors are so great.

You act like ranking wade at 11 is crazy. But look at the other players. West/Oscar/Kobe/Dr. J/Havlicek are all definitely debatable in this hypothetical.

And those guys are all right in that same tier. So its not absurd at all. Wade just gets grossly under-rated for some absurd reason. We saw it this year. Wade was clearly a better player than Kobe this year on both ends. Yet Kobe got more mvp points, first team all defense, and first team all nba.

LOL
True. Its all politics. Wade should've been on both 1st teams over kobe. Even last year. I guess if wade and the heat do accomplish some things. I can see him jumping a tier. I just don't think he's top 20 now. And to me, he'd land in the same company as those guys. I think imma stay away from numbering players and just put them in tiers. Cuz im a firm believer in talent. People never take into consideration the situtions players were in when it comes to championships. I put pippen in the high teens low 20s. Right with malone, barkley etc. Im not gonna knock him cuz of his circumstances cuz he was just as talented and unique. The type of player pippen was is similar to magic, garnett, and duncan. They butterd their bread on versitility.

Wade is similar to barkley, malone and jordan as far as his game. Big time scorers who contributed in different ways.

[Javat_90]

QUOTE=Javat_90]Wow, the overrating of Scottie Pippen is simply reaching ridiculous levels. As much as I love Scottie, he is not on the same level as Wade.

Wade is a first option type of player, the third best SG in the history of the game judging by prime-play, and probably judging by career also. Lets deal with reality, not what if scenarios where we talk about what Pippen could have done in this era...etc etc. Fscts are facts.

Reality is, Pippen played 2 seasons as the team`s franchise player, from 1993 to 1995, and he did it pretty well, but he never reached the level of 08-09 Wade for example. That season right there has to be top-10 all time for a guard, definetely. Not to mention the supporting cast Pip had in 1994 for example, was way better than what Wade has had from 2008 to 2010. And he still managed to take the Miami Heat to the playoffs, even as the 5th or 6th seed.

Pippen is a great all-around player, but he is not a franchise player, let me repeat this: he is not a franchise player. He cant take over games like players like Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq...etc can. He is not a bad scorer, but he is simply not on that level.

Doing a simple comparison between Pippen`s and Wade`s game, the difference factor is clearly scoring, since they are equal in almost every other aspect. Pip might be the better rebounder to his size (but they will never ask a SG to grab 8 boards per game), id say they are equal passers (Pippen played as the facilitator in the triangle-offense, but lets get real, Wade is a great playmaker also), and Pip is probably the slightly better defender, again due to his size. But lets not forget the fact that Wade is one, if not the best shot-blocking guard of all time.

Like many have said, current Bron/Wade duo is more like the 03/04 Kobe-Shaq duo, rather than the 90s Jordan/Pippen duo.

Lol ok. The fact is that pippen has WON 6 championships. And 2 gold medals. Has more all-nba teams, more all defense teams. And is regarded as arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.

Wade has 1 scoring title, one finals mvp. And 1 gold medal ( he was on the first dream team to loose in the olympics).

These are the facts. Scottie pippen is more accomplished than wade.

And I like the way you don't want pippens situation qualified and put into context but then make wades career circumstamtial. What a hypocrite

Hypocrite?

Just because I dont overrate the f*ck outta him, like you do? And before you call me a Pippen hater, take a quick look of the threads ive created here on ISH, there have been a couple of Scottie Pippen appreciation threads made by myself. Does that mean I should be blind by homerism and overrate him? No.

You know the "he won more championships and more gold medals" argument is simply retarded, and you`re just using it cause you have no more to say. Wade did not have the luxury of playing with Jordan, Grant or Rodman never in his career. The closest thing to those were a post-prime Shaq in 06, who wasnt nearly as good as prime Shaq. Thats why Wade has not won as many champions. Because simply put: THOSE HEAT TEAMS WERE GARBAGE COMPARED TO THE 90S BULLS.

And I dont care if you put Pippen in "what if" scenarios and so on, this is a free country, anyone can do whatever they want and thats fine. But please, dont try to sell me that your "what if" scenarios are actually the truth, because no, they arent the truth. They are just subjective opinions.

Like me saying: "put Wade with prime Shaq and its automatic 4 or 5 rings". Thats another non demostrated what if based on pure subjective opinion.

Im not saying its not a close comparison, both are great players in their own right. But i just see Wade as the slightly superior one, because as I said before, he can take over games in more different ways than Pippen could.

[DMAVS41]

True. Its all politics. Wade should've been on both 1st teams over kobe. Even last year. I guess if wade and the heat do accomplish some things. I can see him jumping a tier. I just don't think he's top 20 now. And to me, he'd land in the same company as those guys. I think imma stay away from numbering players and just put them in tiers. Cuz im a firm believer in talent. People never take into consideration the situtions players were in when it comes to championships. I put pippen in the high teens low 20s. Right with malone, barkley etc. Im not gonna knock him cuz of his circumstances cuz he was just as talented and unique. The type of player pippen was is similar to magic, garnett, and duncan. They butterd their bread on versitility.

Wade is similar to barkley, malone and jordan as far as his game. Big time scorers who contributed in different ways.

Totally agree.

I have Wade in the 25 to 30 range right now.

He has to play at a high level for a few more years and prove he can win multiple titles with a stacked team.

If he does all that, he's definitely in that west/kobe/oscar/hondo range as a player though.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, it's crazy how underrated Dwade is. I just can't understand why given that his game is great, but also one of the most aesthetically pleasing EVER. I think the injuries and poor Heat teams perhaps caused him to fall off of some people's radar but anyone who truly analyzes the game knows how great he's been.
Because, its a standard. When you talk about ranking players top 10, I expect alot. Athletically, he's not better than any of the other all-time great. You gotta really seperate yourself from the crowd when your in the top 10. I honestly feel wades 06 was a fluke. Cuz he's never come close to repeating it.

[DMAVS41]

Because, its a standard. When you talk about ranking players top 10, I expect alot. Athletically, he's not better than any of the other all-time great. You gotta really seperate yourself from the crowd when your in the top 10. I honestly feel wades 06 was a fluke. Cuz he's never come close to repeating it.

Was 05 a fluke as well?

27/6/7 on 48% shooting and had the lead on the champs before the injury.

Was that also a fluke?

What about last year?

33/6/7 on 56% shooting against the Celtics that made Kobe and Lebron look silly.

Was that also a fluke?

[Javat_90]

Because, its a standard. When you talk about ranking players top 10, I expect alot. Athletically, he's not better than any of the other all-time great. You gotta really seperate yourself from the crowd when your in the top 10. I honestly feel wades 06 was a fluke. Cuz he's never come close to repeating it.

Again, sorry, but this is a dumb post highlighted with a dumb statement: "it was a fluke".

Let me tell you this, the 2004-2005 Miami Heat team was even better than the 06 championship team. Shaq was a more dominant force, role-players had a superior level, and Wade despite being his sophomore year, played great basketball. Probably not as great as in 2006, but close to that level. Check the regular season records and compare them, if you dont believe me.

They were one game shy of reaching the NBA Finals, and they couldnt do it because of Wade`s late injury.

Now if you are talking about individual play, then your post comes across even more retarded. Check DMAVS41 post, cause he talked some truth.

Wade had his best individual season in 08-09 (for me, he should have won the MVP, because he was on the same level as Lebron with much less talent around him), and he dominated the Celtics last year in the playoffs.

As I said before, his 08-09 season is top-10 all time for a guard. Easily.

[97 bulls]

Hypocrite?

Just because I dont overrate the f*ck outta him, like you do? And before you call me a Pippen hater, take a quick look of the threads ive created here on ISH, there have been a couple of Scottie Pippen appreciation threads made by myself. Does that mean I should be blind by homerism and overrate him? No.

You know the "he won more championships and more gold medals" argument is simply retarded, and you`re just using it cause you have no more to say. Wade did not have the luxury of playing with Jordan, Grant or Rodman never in his career. The closest thing to those were a post-prime Shaq in 06, who wasnt nearly as good as prime Shaq. Thats why Wade has not won as many champions. Because simply put: THOSE HEAT TEAMS WERE GARBAGE COMPARED TO THE 90S BULLS.

And I dont care if you put Pippen in "what if" scenarios and so on, this is a free country, anyone can do whatever they want and thats fine. But please, dont try to sell me that your "what if" scenarios are actually the truth, because no, they arent the truth. They are just subjective opinions.

Like me saying: "put Wade with prime Shaq and its automatic 4 or 5 rings". Thats another non demostrated what if based on pure subjective opinion.

Im not saying its not a close comparison, both are great players in their own right. But i just see Wade as the slightly superior one, because as I said before, he can take over games in more different ways than Pippen could.
See what you did in this post? You say wade is better than pippen cuz he had bett stats and won as the "man". My reply is pippen never had that opportunity and that if he did, he'd have an mvp and a championship.

You then say well let's not talk in what ifs. So I say pippen won more than wade as well as being an all-time gret defender. You then flip th script and say "WHAT IF" wade played with better teammates? He only had a past prime shaq. How is that not hypocritical?

And who cares if shaq was past his prime? Shaq was still the best center in the league. In an all-time sense sure shaq wasn't much more than a really good center. And yes the heat would get eaten alive by the bulls. But that's not the debate.

And don't forget, the east was weak since wades been in the league. REALLY WEAK. Id expect more from a top 15 player.

[97 bulls]

Was 05 a fluke as well?

27/6/7 on 48% shooting and had the lead on the champs before the injury.

Was that also a fluke?

What about last year?

33/6/7 on 56% shooting against the Celtics that made Kobe and Lebron look silly.

Was that also a fluke?
Wades greatness isn't a fluke, but the heat winning was. And don't act like the pistons weren't injured in 05. Im not gonna call you a hypcrite but be consistant. If you give the heat a pass cuz of injury, you must do the same for their competititon.

[DMAVS41]

Wades greatness isn't a fluke, but the heat winning was. And don't act like the pistons weren't injured in 05. Im not gonna call you a hypcrite but be consistant. If you give the heat a pass cuz of injury, you must do the same for their competititon.

What? The Pistons went on to take Duncan and the Spurs to 7 in the finals.

Come on now.

This is just getting sad. Look at what Wade is doing tonight.

This is what he does. He's the best playoff performer against the best teams of this era.

Kobe and Lebron can only dream of playing this well against the best competition.

Some day Wade will get credit. Not sure when, but some day it will happen.


And how was winning in 06 a fluke? Wade played one of the greatest finals ever. Why are you so hell bent on taking credit away from him? What more do you want? He played arguably the best finals ever (espn ranks it number 1 all time) and its a fluke......uhhhhhhhhh.....what?

[NugzHeat3]

See what you did in this post? You say wade is better than pippen cuz he had bett stats and won as the "man". My reply is pippen never had that opportunity and that if he did, he'd have an mvp and a championship.

You then say well let's not talk in what ifs. So I say pippen won more than wade as well as being an all-time gret defender. You then flip th script and say "WHAT IF" wade played with better teammates? He only had a past prime shaq. How is that not hypocritical?

And who cares if shaq was past his prime? Shaq was still the best center in the league. In an all-time sense sure shaq wasn't much more than a really good center. And yes the heat would get eaten alive by the bulls. But that's not the debate.

And don't forget, the east was weak since wades been in the league. REALLY WEAK. Id expect more from a top 15 player.
Pippen wasn't an MVP caliber player, sorry. It would take special circumstances for him to be a leading MVP candidate; kinda like how it's for Rose right now (Dwight stuck on a shit team, LeBron/Wade team teaming up). Pippen had his best year in '94 yet that year PALES in comparison to what Hakeem and David did that year.

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't an MVP caliber player, sorry. It would take special circumstances for him to be a leading MVP candidate; kinda like how it's for Rose right now (Dwight stuck on a shit team, LeBron/Wade team teaming up). Pippen had his best year in '94 yet that year PALES in comparison to what Hakeem and David did that year.
Think about what you said. Pippen lost to hakeem olajuwan and david robinson. Two of the best centers to play the game. That shouldnt be a knock on pippen since the center position is the most domiant position. And pippen finished third. Any player top 5 is mvp caliber.

[97 bulls]

What? The Pistons went on to take Duncan and the Spurs to 7 in the finals.

Come on now.

This is just getting sad. Look at what Wade is doing tonight.

This is what he does. He's the best playoff performer against the best teams of this era.

Kobe and Lebron can only dream of playing this well against the best competition.

Some day Wade will get credit. Not sure when, but some day it will happen.


And how was winning in 06 a fluke? Wade played one of the greatest finals ever. Why are you so hell bent on taking credit away from him? What more do you want? He played arguably the best finals ever (espn ranks it number 1 all time) and its a fluke......uhhhhhhhhh.....what?
Wade is a beast. Is top 30 bad? I just don't see why he's put on this pedastal and pippen degraded. Strike that, yes I do. Pippen is the better defender and wades the better offeensive player.

And I say 06 is a fluke cuz what he did is a rare occurrence. That whole series was wacky. Put the heat in a 2-0 hole and im sure 9 time out of 10 they'd loose.

[DMAVS41]

Wade is a beast. Is top 30 bad? I just don't see why he's put on this pedastal and pippen degraded. Strike that, yes I do. Pippen is the better defender and wades the better offeensive player.

And I say 06 is a fluke cuz what he did is a rare occurrence. That whole series was wacky. Put the heat in a 2-0 hole and im sure 9 time out of 10 they'd loose.

But I'm not doing that. I already have told you time and time again that I currently rank Wade and Pippen in the same tier.

The other stuff was based on a hypothetical brought up by others and YOU talking about where Wade would rank all time when he's done if he wins a few more titles and plays 4 or 5 more years at a high level.

And if Wade does that? He's on another level than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

But I'm not doing that. I already have told you time and time again that I currently rank Wade and Pippen in the same tier.

The other stuff was based on a hypothetical brought up by others and YOU talking about where Wade would rank all time when he's done if he wins a few more titles and plays 4 or 5 more years at a high level.

And if Wade does that? He's on another level than Pippen.
Another level in that he's with jordan, magic, wilt, james, russel? Hell no. Hell be with barkley, malone, pippen, havlicek etc. Maybe hell jump a few slots but not a whole tier.

This is just my opinion. To me, wade hasn't seperated himself from these guys. And to me he's not better than james.

I asked you this earlier, if wade wins 2 more rings which will leave him at 3, and you've already acknowledged that pippen in this era would put up better stats, say 24 8, and 8. The only difference is that finals mvp. Is that finals mvp worth 3 championships?

[DMAVS41]

Another level in that he's with jordan, magic, wilt, james, russel? Hell no. Hell be with barkley, malone, pippen, havlicek etc. Maybe hell jump a few slots but not a whole tier.

This is just my opinion. To me, wade hasn't seperated himself from these guys. And to me he's not better than james.

I asked you this earlier, if wade wins 2 more rings which will leave him at 3, and you've already acknowledged that pippen in this era would put up better stats, say 24 8, and 8. The only difference is that finals mvp. Is that finals mvp worth 3 championships?

I don't put pippen on the level as barkely or karl malone. this is where we disagree.

There is the ultra elite like mj/russell/wilt/magic/kareem
Then there is shaq/bird/duncan/hakeem

Then there is kobe/west/oscar/hondo

Wade would be in that last range. Then there is barkely/malone/robinson/kg.....then pippen's range.

you over-rate the shit out of pippen. its clear now. he's not in the barkley/malone/kg range as a player.

[97 bulls]

I don't put pippen on the level as barkely or karl malone. this is where we disagree.

There is the ultra elite like mj/russell/wilt/magic/kareem
Then there is shaq/bird/duncan/hakeem

Then there is kobe/west/oscar/hondo

Wade would be in that last range. Then there is barkely/malone/robinson/kg.....then pippen's range.

you over-rate the shit out of pippen. its clear now. he's not in the barkley/malone/kg range as a player.
No, I put them in tiers. And each tier is 15 players. If you break down to 5 then yes pippen is right where you said he should be.

Pippen is an anomoly. He spent all but one year of his prime behind jordan. Im off the opinion that he's was a number 1 guy playing a number 2 position. I see no reason why he couldn't win an mvp and have multiple playoff appearances like barkley and malone. And he'd get a dpoy or 2. And im not gonna penalize him like you. His sacrifice brought the bulls 6 championships.

[DMAVS41]

No, I put them in tiers. And each tier is 15 players. If you break down to 5 then yes pippen is right where you said he should be.

Pippen is an anomoly. He spent all but one year of his prime behind jordan. Im off the opinion that he's was a number 1 guy playing a number 2 position. I see no reason why he couldn't win an mvp and have multiple playoff appearances like barkley and malone. And he'd get a dpoy or 2. And im not gonna penalize him like you. His sacrifice brought the bulls 6 championships.

Nothing. I flat out LOVE Pippen. One of my favorites of all time. He and Grant Hill are the two best all around players I have ever seen.

But Pippen isn't the same force that some of the truly elite players of all time were.

I don't see anyway that Pippen can do the things that Wade and Lebron and Kobe have done.

Its not a knock in Pippen, but trust me. No GM or Coach would ever pick Pippen over Wade to build a franchise around. It would never happen. Not once.

[Smoke117]

Nothing. I flat out LOVE Pippen. One of my favorites of all time. He and Grant Hill are the two best all around players I have ever seen.

But Pippen isn't the same force that some of the truly elite players of all time were.

I don't see anyway that Pippen can do the things that Wade and Lebron and Kobe have done.

Its not a knock in Pippen, but trust me. No GM or Coach would ever pick Pippen over Wade to build a franchise around. It would never happen. Not once.

While Pippen isn't as good as scorer as Wade, if he had been allowed to really be the pg he was capable of being his assist would be much higher. His stats don't help him in this comparison, but ability wise the things he did well I think can be measured up to what Wade does well rather competitively.

[DMAVS41]

While Pippen isn't as good as scorer as Wade, if he had been allowed to really be the pg he was capable of being his assist would be much higher. His stats don't help him in this comparison, but ability wise the things he did well I think can be measured up to what Wade does well rather competitively.

I somewhat agree, but there is a "takeover ability" that Wade has that Pippen didn't.

I'm not going to knock Pippen because I love his game and rank him in the top 30 or so all time.

Its what I think of Wade. I think Wade is every bit as good or better than Kobe Bryant. Things like tonight. I just don't think Pippen could do that.

Forget Wade. Compare Kobe to Pippen. Who do you think is better?

You'll of course say Kobe. Then my response would be.....what makes Kobe any better than Wade?

[97 bulls]

Nothing. I flat out LOVE Pippen. One of my favorites of all time. He and Grant Hill are the two best all around players I have ever seen.

But Pippen isn't the same force that some of the truly elite players of all time were.

I don't see anyway that Pippen can do the things that Wade and Lebron and Kobe have done.

Its not a knock in Pippen, but trust me. No GM or Coach would ever pick Pippen over Wade to build a franchise around. It would never happen. Not once.
Most GMs are dumb. And I don't think thats true. Why don't you ask the GMs? And I've told you things that pippens done. Just admit that you don't think much of pippen. And you don't respect his role on the bulls cuz he didn't score 30 a night. Man up llol.

[DMAVS41]

Most GMs are dumb. And I don't think thats true. Why don't you ask the GMs? And I've told you things that pippens done. Just admit that you don't think much of pippen. And you don't respect his role on the bulls cuz he didn't score 30 a night. Man up llol.

What?

I don't think that at all. Its not about Pippen. Its about Wade.

Wade is just a better basketball player.

I'll ask again. Do you feel Pippen is just as good as Kobe?

If not, how is Kobe better than Wade?

[97 bulls]

I somewhat agree, but there is a "takeover ability" that Wade has that Pippen didn't.

I'm not going to knock Pippen because I love his game and rank him in the top 30 or so all time.

Its what I think of Wade. I think Wade is every bit as good or better than Kobe Bryant. Things like tonight. I just don't think Pippen could do that.

Forget Wade. Compare Kobe to Pippen. Who do you think is better?

You'll of course say Kobe. Then my response would be.....what makes Kobe any better than Wade?
My god why do you continue to say he couldn't take over games? A win is a win. I don't believe you could watch what pippen did defensivly to the indiana pacers and say cuz he didn't take over scoring wise, it doesn't count. Have you ever played basketball?

[DMAVS41]

My god why do you continue to say he couldn't take over games? A win is a win. I don't believe you could watch what pippen did defensivly to the indiana pacers and say cuz he didn't take over scoring wise, it doesn't count. Have you ever played basketball?

Kobe vs Pippen.

Do you feel the same way?

[whoartthou]

My god why do you continue to say he couldn't take over games? A win is a win. I don't believe you could watch what pippen did defensivly to the indiana pacers and say cuz he didn't take over scoring wise, it doesn't count. Have you ever played basketball?

lMFAO. Wade will be > pippen when it is all said and done

[97 bulls]

What?

I don't think that at all. Its not about Pippen. Its about Wade.

Wade is just a better basketball player.

I'll ask again. Do you feel Pippen is just as good as Kobe?

If not, how is Kobe better than Wade?
As a basketball player no. But neither is wade. Kobe should've been better than what he showed. His IQ is questionable at best. He had the ability to be a 50% fg shooter. Talent-wise I think pippen brings more to the table though.

[DMAVS41]

As a basketball player no. But neither is wade. Kobe should've been better than what he showed. His IQ is questionable at best. He had the ability to be a 50% fg shooter. Talent-wise I think pippen brings more to the table though.

Forget talent.

I'm talking just level of play and impact.

Who do you think is better. Pippen or Kobe.

[97 bulls]

lMFAO. Wade will be > pippen when it is all said and done
Im sorry bro, but when it comes to pippen, most jordan fans (not bulls fans) opinions are worth about as much as a grain of salt. Your in the jordan fan group.

[Smoke117]

I somewhat agree, but there is a "takeover ability" that Wade has that Pippen didn't.

I'm not going to knock Pippen because I love his game and rank him in the top 30 or so all time.

Its what I think of Wade. I think Wade is every bit as good or better than Kobe Bryant. Things like tonight. I just don't think Pippen could do that.

Forget Wade. Compare Kobe to Pippen. Who do you think is better?

You'll of course say Kobe. Then my response would be.....what makes Kobe any better than Wade?

Yeah but that's kind of my point. Pip had a pg's mentality...and pg's generally are not there to jack up 20 shots a game, but run the team and make others around them better. There is no doubt Wade is a better scorer, but if Pippen had actually been allowed to be the pg he was capable of being his stats would reflect that and it would be more of a good all around scorer vs a good all around pg debate.

[97 bulls]

Forget talent.

I'm talking just level of play and impact.

Who do you think is better. Pippen or Kobe.
Lol forget talent? Kobes had a better career. Cuz he's hhad the opportunity. Now answer my question, would you be willing to trade a finals mvp for 3 championships?

[DMAVS41]

Yeah but that's kind of my point. Pip had a pg's mentality...and pg's generally are not there to jack up 20 shots a game, but run the team and make others around them better. There is no doubt Wade is a better scorer, but if Pippen had actually been allowed to be the pg he was capable of being his stats would reflect that and it would be more of a good all around scorer vs a good all around pg debate.

Maybe. We simply don't know.

And I'll ask again.

Who is better in your opinion? Kobe or Pippen.

[DMAVS41]

Lol forget talent? Kobes had a better career. Cuz he's hhad the opportunity. Now answer my question, would you be willing to trade a finals mvp for 3 championships?

When ranking players. You said you don't weight titles and accolades heavily due to circumstances.

See. This is your problem. You know you can't say Pippen is better than Kobe because thats just not true in any shape or form.

And guess what. Wade is absolutely on that Kobe level as a player.

As for your trade about titles and mvps? I have no idea. I don't go off that stuff. I go off level of play and impact and success based on circumstances.

I bump Pippen up a ton because he contributed hugely to 6 titles.

Titles are over-rated. Titles playing second fiddle to the GOAT are even more over-rated.

[97 bulls]

Yeah but that's kind of my point. Pip had a pg's mentality...and pg's generally are not there to jack up 20 shots a game, but run the team and make others around them better. There is no doubt Wade is a better scorer, but if Pippen had actually been allowed to be the pg he was capable of being his stats would reflect that and it would be more of a good all around scorer vs a good all around pg debate.
You make total sense.. but that's not where dirk41 is comming from. He doesn't understand the role pippen played. As alot of people. Id argue that most of those people never played organized sports. Cand whenever pippen is compared its always based on the other players strengths. That's why you get this pippen couldn't take over games like wade nonsense. I mean, if pippen literally shuts down a team similar to that of a center, grab 8 boards and dish out 10 assists and gets the game winning steal. But "only" scores 20 pts . Somehow, that's doesn't hold as much weight as a guy that dropped 30 and hits a game winning shot. Even though they both count as wins. Go figure

[DMAVS41]

You make total sense.. but that's not where dirk41 is comming from. He doesn't understand the role pippen played. As alot of people. Id argue that most of those people never played organized sports. Cand whenever pippen is compared its always based on the other players strengths. That's why you get this pippen couldn't take over games like wade nonsense. I mean, if pippen literally shuts down a team similar to that of a center, grab 8 boards and dish out 10 assists and gets the game winning steal. But "only" scores 20 pts . Somehow, that's doesn't hold as much weight as a guy that dropped 30 and hits a game winning shot. Even though they both count as wins. Go figure

I played basketball in college.

And I never said Wade is only better because he scores more points.

Stay consistent.

Would you take Pippen over Kobe? Magic? West?

Please answer.

[97 bulls]

When ranking players. You said you don't weight titles and accolades heavily due to circumstances.

See. This is your problem. You know you can't say Pippen is better than Kobe because thats just not true in any shape or form.

And guess what. Wade is absolutely on that Kobe level as a player.

As for your trade about titles and mvps? I have no idea. I don't go off that stuff. I go off level of play and impact and success based on circumstances.

I bump Pippen up a ton because he contributed hugely to 6 titles.

Titles are over-rated. Titles playing second fiddle to the GOAT are even more over-rated.
Lol take out the championships. Kobe still has an mvp, and more scoring titles. Wade has a scoring title. Pippen is arguably the greatest defender ever. Wade is nowhere near the greatest scorer ever.

[DMAVS41]

Lol take out the championships. Kobe still has an mvp, and more scoring titles. Wade has a scoring title. Pippen is arguably the greatest defender ever. Wade is nowhere near the greatest scorer ever.

Scoring titles? Why does that matter? So you talk about Pippen's circumstances and then want to bring up scoring titles? What?

Will you ****ing answer the question.

Who do you think was a better basketball player?

Pippen or Kobe.

[Smoke117]

You make total sense.. but that's not where dirk41 is comming from. He doesn't understand the role pippen played. As alot of people. Id argue that most of those people never played organized sports. Cand whenever pippen is compared its always based on the other players strengths. That's why you get this pippen couldn't take over games like wade nonsense. I mean, if pippen literally shuts down a team similar to that of a center, grab 8 boards and dish out 10 assists and gets the game winning steal. But "only" scores 20 pts . Somehow, that's doesn't hold as much weight as a guy that dropped 30 and hits a game winning shot. Even though they both count as wins. Go figure

Oh Pippen could definitely take over games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFeJdRg5Uw (this is actually a good showing of how completely he could dominate in every facet of the game)

But to the extent of Wade? No. Pippen was good off the dribble, but Wade is GREAT. It's more a size thing like it is with Lebron...Pip just doesn't have the nimbleness and quickness that a Jordan, Wade have just like Lebron doesn't, but he also doesn't have the bulk to just bulldoze his way down the lane like Lebron...nor did he ever get favorable calls from the refs. If were just talking about taking over games scoring wise, then yes Wade is better in that aspect, definitely. But you are right and I think what a lot of people don't understand is that Pippen could control a game while being 3/8 with 6 pts. He's one of those few players (barring defensive big men) that can dominate a game without scoring. Can Wade? No. Wade clearly has to be scoring to be effective and I think this is a good argument in Pippen's favor.

[97 bulls]

I played basketball in college.

And I never said Wade is only better because he scores more points.

Stay consistent.

Would you take Pippen over Kobe? Magic? West?

Please answer.
Lol I honestly would not take magic cuz his defense is sooooo poor. Im too young to see west play. And I've seen kobe shoot the lakers to losses as much as wins. Tough call. But all 3 are more accomplised than pippen.

And sure you've never said the words "wade is better than pippen cuz he's a better scorer" in that order, but I can tell that's how you feel by your posts. When you say pippen couldn't take over games. When I gave you multiple example of him doing just so. What am I left to believe?

[Smoke117]

Forget talent.

I'm talking just level of play and impact.

Who do you think is better. Pippen or Kobe.

I'll probably take flack for this, but I think Pippen. I've never been a Kobe fan to be honest. If were talking about impact that Pippen easily impacts the game more. Kobe is a great scorer, but his efficiency isn't like Michael Jordan level. Pippen was a far superior defensive player and better all around player and as I just said in Wade vs Pippen, Scottie Pippen could dominate a game without even scoring...Kobe even more so than Wade can't as he isn't as good all around player as Wade, less Pippen. I think scoring does get overrated a lot. Stopping scoring is just as important and all the other things that come with playing. Not to say that Kobe isn't a complete player, but he pales in comparison to either of those 2 and when he isn't scoring even more so than Wade he can't control a game.

I've felt Wade was a better player than Kobe for a long time now. Wade is just a better all around player and more consistent defensive player. Prime vs prime i'd take Wade in a second.

[DMAVS41]

Lol I honestly would not take magic cuz his defense is sooooo poor. Im too young to see west play. And I've seen kobe shoot the lakers to losses as much as wins. Tough call. But all 3 are more accomplised than pippen.

And sure you've never said the words "wade is better than pippen cuz he's a better scorer" in that order, but I can tell that's how you feel by your posts. When you say pippen couldn't take over games. When I gave you multiple example of him doing just so. What am I left to believe?

If there is any confusion. I did not mean to say Pippen could not dominate games. I meant to say Wade has a better "takeover ability"....which yes, does come from being able to drop 40 on elite defenses. But Wade is also being extremely under-rated as a playmaker and defender.

Its clearly just a battle of basketball philosophy between us.

I think its very clear that Magic and Kobe are superior basketball players to Pippen. You don't think so. I applaud your consistency, but I just completely disagree.

I think the way you break down a player and focus so much on offense vs offense and defense vs defense is flawed. I don't think that is an accurate way to judge a players actual impact.

Because if you did that, KG is just on a completely different level than Magic. KG was a beast on the boards, a great passer, could score from anywhere, and could anchor an entire team defense.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[DMAVS41]

I'll probably take flack for this, but I think Pippen. I've never been a Kobe fan to be honest. If were talking about impact that Pippen easily impacts the game more. Kobe is a great scorer, but his efficiency isn't like Michael Jordan level. Pippen was a far superior defensive player and better all around player and as I just said in Wade vs Pippen, Scottie Pippen could dominate a game without even scoring...Kobe even more so than Wade can't as he isn't as good all around player as Wade, less Pippen. I think scoring does get overrated a lot. Stopping scoring is just as important and all the other things that come with playing. Not to say that Kobe isn't a complete player, but he pales in comparison to either of those 2 and when he isn't scoring even more so than Wade he can't control a game.

I've felt Wade was a better player than Kobe for a long time now. Wade is just a better all around player and more consistent defensive player. Prime vs prime i'd take Wade in a second.

I agree about Wade being a little better than Kobe.

I don't agree about Kobe vs Pippen though. Like I told 97 Bulls.....I applaud your consistency and respect your opinion.

But we aren't going to get anywhere debating this stuff if we are this far apart on basketball philosophy. I think Kobe is just a much superior player than Pippen ever was.

Agree to disagree I guess. Good debate though.

[Smoke117]

Let's put it this way, as far as building a team goes I think Pippen would be a lot easier to build around and you'd need less than to build around Wade and Kobe. Pippen just does so much and at such a high level. He's like the swiss army knife of the NBA...you just get so much in so many different aspects of the game from him.

[DMAVS41]

Let's put it this way, as far as building a team goes I think Pippen would be a lot easier to build around and you'd need less than to build around Wade and Kobe. Pippen just does so much and at such a high level. He's like the swiss army knife of the NBA...you just get so much in so many different aspects of the game from him.

Like I said, I respect your consistency and your opinion.

I just could not disagree more. I just can't imagine anyone taking Pippen over Kobe or Wade to build a team.

[MJ23forever]

:facepalm

wow....how overrated can one player be?

if you ever need evidence to why people say that pippen is overrated just view this thread...according to 97 bulls he would take pippen over not just wade, but magic and kobe. :oldlol:

what a fukking joke..not only that but apparently pippen would be on birds level in the 80s and was the true mvp of the 2nd 3-peat bulls team! :roll:

it honestly boggles my mind that people would honestly so much as believe such rubbish let alone spew garbage like this.

[97 bulls]

Oh Pippen could definitely take over games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFeJdRg5Uw

But to the extent of Wade? No. Pippen was good off the dribble, but Wade is GREAT. It's more a size thing like it is with Lebron...Pip just doesn't have the nimbleness and quickness that a Jordan, Wade have just like Lebron doesn't, but he also doesn't have the bulk to just bulldoze his way down the lane like Lebron...nor did he ever get favorable calls from the refs. If were just talking about taking over games scoring wise, then yes Wade is better in that aspect, definitely. But you are right and I think what a lot of people don't understand is that Pippen could control a game while being 3/8 with 6 pts. He's one of those few players (barring defensive big men) that can dominate a game without scoring. Can Wade? No. Wade clearly has to be scoring to be effective and I think this is a good argument in Pippen's favor.
Great post this is ll I've said as far as pippen and taking over games.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

wow....how overrated can one player be?

if you ever need evidence to why people say that pippen is overrated just view this thread...according to 97 bulls he would take pippen over not just wade, but magic and kobe. :oldlol:

what a fukking joke..not only that but apparently pippen would be on birds level in the 80s and was the true mvp of the 2nd 3-peat bulls team! :roll:

it honestly boggles my mind that people would honestly so much as believe such rubbish let alone spew garbage like this.

yea. i really did like pippen a lot, but in my opinion, he is being grossly over-rated in this thread.

but at least they are consistent.

I just could not disagree more.

[97 bulls]

If there is any confusion. I did not mean to say Pippen could not dominate games. I meant to say Wade has a better "takeover ability"....which yes, does come from being able to drop 40 on elite defenses. But Wade is also being extremely under-rated as a playmaker and defender.

Its clearly just a battle of basketball philosophy between us.

I think its very clear that Magic and Kobe are superior basketball players to Pippen. You don't think so. I applaud your consistency, but I just completely disagree.

I think the way you break down a player and focus so much on offense vs offense and defense vs defense is flawed. I don't think that is an accurate way to judge a players actual impact.

Because if you did that, KG is just on a completely different level than Magic. KG was a beast on the boards, a great passer, could score from anywhere, and could anchor an entire team defense.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Its not philosophy. I agree that guys take over games offensively. That is the normal way. But for some reason, you fail to realize there's so many different ways to take over a game. You'd get no argument from me if you said that's your preference, but acknowleged both get results then cool, but you don't.

I mean, even when you say offense vs offense and defense vs defense. Its not that cut and dry. Take magic for instance. Magic was great but we will never know what he could do in a system similar to pippen. We could speculate and im sure he'd put up stats very similar to pippen. But magic is regarded as a great offensive player. And pippen isnt. But look at his team, the offense the lakers ran, the era in which he played. I don't look solely at a guys stats and just go off that. Same with defense. Again, take magic. Horrible defender. Always gambled, never moved his feet. Always reaching, alway out of position. Then I hear people say that he was a great help defender, sure cuz he wasn't interested in guarding his own man.

Back to pippen. Like smoke said, put pippen in a situation similar to magic and there's no doubt in my mind that pippen would've avg 25, 8 11. Easy. Its just situations. He's that talented.

[97 bulls]

yea. i really did like pippen a lot, but in my opinion, he is being grossly over-rated in this thread.

but at least they are consistent.

I just could not disagree more.
Wait dirk. Look at the source. He a jordan fan. And their job as a jordan fan is to degrade kobe and pippen. You can't take his post serious.

He feels jordan won those six championshipsin spite of pippen. Not with pippens help.

[DMAVS41]

Its not philosophy. I agree that guys take over games offensively. That is the normal way. But for some reason, you fail to realize there's so many different ways to take over a game. You'd get no argument from me if you said that's your preference, but acknowleged both get results then cool, but you don't.

I mean, even when you say offense vs offense and defense vs defense. Its not that cut and dry. Take magic for instance. Magic was great but we will never know what he could do in a system similar to pippen. We could speculate and im sure he'd put up stats very similar to pippen. But magic is regarded as a great offensive player. And pippen isnt. But look at his team, the offense the lakers ran, the era in which he played. I don't look solely at a guys stats and just go off that. Same with defense. Again, take magic. Horrible defender. Always gambled, never moved his feet. Always reaching, alway out of position. Then I hear people say that he was a great help defender, sure cuz he wasn't interested in guarding his own man.

Back to pippen. Like smoke said, put pippen in a situation similar to magic and there's no doubt in my mind that pippen would've avg 25, 8 11. Easy. Its just situations. He's that talented.

It is philosophy though.

I don't mean to be rude, but anyone that thinks Pippen was a better basketball player than Magic is just is watching a different game than me.

I'm not saying i'm right and you are wrong....I'm saying there is no point in debating this because I honestly feel that Magic was twice the basketball player pippen was.

Just how I feel.

[97 bulls]

It is philosophy though.

I don't mean to be rude, but anyone that thinks Pippen was a better basketball player than Magic is just is watching a different game than me.

I'm not saying i'm right and you are wrong....I'm saying there is no point in debating this because I honestly feel that Magic was twice the basketball player pippen was.

Just how I feel.
True, cuz magic accomplished more. But be honest, put pippen in the 80s out of the triangle and give him a fast break offense and the opportunity to dominate the ball. What would his stats look like?

[Bigsmoke]

I like Lebron but theres NO WAY imma vote against MJ.

[DMAVS41]

True, cuz magic accomplished more. But be honest, put pippen in the 80s out of the triangle and give him a fast break offense and the opportunity to dominate the ball. What would his stats look like?

It has nothing to do with what Magic accomplished. Pippen won 6 titles....1 more than Magic.

Its about Magic's level of play and impact. His ability as a basketball player and how he played the game.

Put it this way. I'd rank Magic over Pippen if Magic had only 1 title.

[97 bulls]

Oh, also, when you said that no gm would take pippen over kobe or wade, I remember a post from I wanna say DaRealist or maybe Roundball Rock. And there was a survey in which they poled all the GMs and asked them who theyd start a team with. I believe 80% said pippen. Now granted this was in 95 I believe. But guys like malone, barkley, and olajuwan were playing and in their prime. And I don't wanna say 80% cuz im not sure, but most of them said pippen.

[97 bulls]

It has nothing to do with what Magic accomplished. Pippen won 6 titles....1 more than Magic.

Its about Magic's level of play and impact. His ability as a basketball player and how he played the game.

Put it this way. I'd rank Magic over Pippen if Magic had only 1 title.
No no no, take out the titles. Forget the 3 mvps magic won. What would pippen do if he was a PG in the 80s and ran a fast break offense.

[DMAVS41]

No no no, take out the titles. Forget the 3 mvps magic won. What would pippen do if he was a PG in the 80s and ran a fast break offense.

I don't know. Its pure speculation on our parts. He wouldn't have been Magic. I know that much though.

In all these "what ifs" you keep creating.

Have you ever thought that Pippen's defense and all around game would suffer if he was asked to carry an offense throughout his career?

Stuff like that.

But honestly dude. I'm not going to spend time debating Magic vs. Pippen. We are so far apart it doesn't make sense to keep debating.

Magic was just a far superior basketball player to me.

[97 bulls]

I don't know. Its pure speculation on our parts. He wouldn't have been Magic. I know that much though.
Lol just speculate then.

[97 bulls]

I don't know. Its pure speculation on our parts. He wouldn't have been Magic. I know that much though.

In all these "what ifs" you keep creating.

Have you ever thought that Pippen's defense and all around game would suffer if he was asked to carry an offense throughout his career?

Stuff like that.

But honestly dude. I'm not going to spend time debating Magic vs. Pippen. We are so far apart it doesn't make sense to keep debating.

Magic was just a far superior basketball player to me.
I thought so.

[DMAVS41]

I thought so.

What?

What are you talking about?

Keep thinking Pippen was better than Magic.

Can't believe I'm actually wasting my time with this.
:facepalm

[97 bulls]

What?

What are you talking about?

Keep thinking Pippen was better than Magic.

Can't believe I'm actually wasting my time with this.
:facepalm
I said id take pippen, I didn't say he was better. Im concerenced that you refuse to answer my question. Like your hiding something.

[Smoke117]

I think it's just about time to agree to disagree and call it a night on this thread, fellas.

[DMAVS41]

I said id take pippen, I didn't say he was better. Im concerenced that you refuse to answer my question. Like your hiding something.

Hiding? I have no idea what his stats would be. No idea. What good what that do.
I could say he'd average 25/8/8 but his lack of ability to score late in games could prevent his team from winning if he didn't have a closer. Or I could say he'd put up great numbers but his defense would suffer and he'd turn the ball over a lot. I simply have no idea what he would have done playing point guard so its pointless to discuss it.

And again, I have never used Pippen's absolutely mediocre career numbers against him. Because Pippen was far better than his numbers indicate.

And yes, you think Pippen was better than Magic. Why else would your pick Pippen over Magic to start a team?

What kind of nonsense are you talking about.

[97 bulls]

Hiding? I have no idea what his stats would be. No idea. What good what that do.
I could say he'd average 25/8/8 but his lack of ability to score late in games could prevent his team from winning if he didn't have a closer. Or I could say he'd put up great numbers but his defense would suffer and he'd turn the ball over a lot. I simply have no idea what he would have done playing point guard so its pointless to discuss it.

And again, I have never used Pippen's absolutely mediocre career numbers against him. Because Pippen was far better than his numbers indicate.

And yes, you think Pippen was better than Magic. Why else would your pick Pippen over Magic to start a team?

What kind of nonsense are you talking about.
Lol thats not true. I think shaq is better than olajuwan talent wise, but id take olajuwan over him to start my team. Cuz olajuwan brings more to the table and shaq is a lazy defender.

[DMAVS41]

Lol thats not true. I think shaq is better than olajuwan talent wise, but id take olajuwan over him to start my team. Cuz olajuwan brings more to the table and shaq is a lazy defender.

That means you think Hakeem is better.

You are not even making sense now.

What good is talent if you don't use it.

You keep creating some weird talent vs production argument.

Just be straight forward.

If you could pick a player on your team who would it be. meaning who the **** do you think is a better basketball player.

magic or pippen?
kobe or pippen?
KG or pippen?
Barkley or pippen?
Lebron or pippen?
Bird or Pippen?
Dr. J or Pippen?

Please answer. Don't qualify the answer. Just tell me who you think was/is a better basketball player. Thanks.

[Smoke117]

magic or pippen?
kobe or pippen?
KG or pippen?
Barkley or pippen?
Lebron or pippen?
Bird or Pippen?
Dr. J or Pippen?

Please answer. Don't qualify the answer. Just tell me who you think was/is a better basketball player. Thanks.

My Choices.

[97 bulls]

And even still, if you do feel pippen in the 80s would be avg 25, 8, 8 then you acknowledge that he didn't put up those number cuz of the role he had on the bulls. That's what I was getting at. And still in response to your he couldn't hit the last shot. Well id feel more comfortable with pippen having the ball in his hands and me being down by one, than magic needing to be the defensive stopper and let's say wade is the guy with the ball and were up 1.

[DMAVS41]

And even still, if you do feel pippen in the 80s would be avg 25, 8, 8 then you acknowledge that he didn't put up those number cuz of the role he had on the bulls. That's what I was getting at. And still in response to your he couldn't hit the last shot. Well id feel more comfortable with pippen having the ball in his hands and me being down by one, than magic needing to be the defensive stopper and let's say wade is the guy with the ball and were up 1.

I never said he couldn't hit the last shot.

I said he couldn't take over games in the way kobe/wade/lebron...etc. can.

[97 bulls]

That means you think Hakeem is better.

You are not even making sense now.

What good is talent if you don't use it.

You keep creating some weird talent vs production argument.

Just be straight forward.

If you could pick a player on your team who would it be. meaning who the **** do you think is a better basketball player.

magic or pippen?
kobe or pippen?
KG or pippen?
Barkley or pippen?
Lebron or pippen?
Bird or Pippen?
Dr. J or Pippen?

Please answer. Don't qualify the answer. Just tell me who you think was/is a better basketball player. Thanks.
Oh in sports, there's been alot of talented guys that never showed it for whatever reason. Im just partial to consistant guys and guys that are gonna bring it every single night. On both ends of the court.

And id take pippen over everybody but james and bird. I would include garnett, but far too often I remember him refusing to take over games on offense. As if he were scared almost. And in this era the person with the ball calls the shots.

[DMAVS41]

Oh in sports, there's been alot of talented guys that never showed it for whatever reason. Im just partial to consistant guys and guys that are gonna bring it every single night. On both ends of the court.

And id take pippen over everybody but james and bird. I would include garnett, but far too often I remember him refusing to take over games on offense. As if he were scared almost. And in this era the person with the ball calls the shots.

Fair enough.

So can we just agree that our thoughts on the game are just too different to find a common ground to debate off of?

Like I said before, the idea of saying that Pippen was a better basketball player than Kobe or Magic is just insane to me.

Again. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying our views on the game are just too far apart to have a legit debate. Thats all.

[kaiiu]

MJ> Lebron, Wade
Pippen> Lebron, Wade

[97 bulls]

I never said he couldn't hit the last shot.

I said he couldn't take over games in the way kobe/wade/lebron...etc. can.
And I and smoke agreed. But that's not his game. I mean, he could take over offensivly, but it jus depends on what's needed. That was the beauty of pippen. You never read a post where I said pippen is a better scorer than wade. Hell if wade played in the 80s, he avg 28 ppg consistantly with highs of about 32-33.

[97 bulls]

Fair enough.

So can we just agree that our thoughts on the game are just too different to find a common ground to debate off of?

Like I said before, the idea of saying that Pippen was a better basketball player than Kobe or Magic is just insane to me.

Again. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying our views on the game are just too far apart to have a legit debate. Thats all.
Fair enough. Understand that I just feel pippen never really got a chance to really maximize on his potential. I think he's a top 15 talent, but could only muster 20-25 results cuz of his role with the bulls.

We need to stop looking solely at stats and draw conclusions without putting those stats in proper perspective. I remember hearing that dwight howard got into an argument with a fan, and he told the fan that he scored 33 pts and had 19 rebounds. But apparently he failed to realize that the hawks wanted that to happen. Let howard score and stop everyone else. I remeber the stats magic johnson put up in the 91 finals game 5. Something like 17 pts and 20 assists. Great game offensively, but john paxson who avg about 8 ppg during the season (his man) scored like 20 pts on like 8 for 11 shooting. The lakers lost by what 8 pts? I keep remebering phil jackson pleading with michael to pass paxson the ball. And every time, paxson shot the ball, magic wasn't even in the picture frame. There's so many time when I watched games and someone put up amazing offensive numbers. But their counterpart is too.

As much as I hate to say it. Derrick rose to me is getting outplayed by his man. Teague. Maybbe not in the boxscore but overall. If he'd play better defensivly, the bulls would be preparing for the heat right now.

Even with rebounding. I remember in the 96 nba finals. The sonics believed they could just leave rodman and double jordan. The result? Rodman has a record setting rebounding series. There's just so many variables when talking sports.

[DMAVS41]

Fair enough. Understand that I just feel pippen never really got a chance to really maximize on his potential. I think he's a top 15 talent, but could only muster 20-25 results cuz of his role with the bulls.

We need to stop looking solely at stats and draw conclusions without putting those stats in proper perspective. I remember hearing that dwight howard got into an argument with a fan, and he told the fan that he scored 33 pts and had 19 rebounds. But apparently he failed to realize that the hawks wanted that to happen. Let howard score and stop everyone else. I remeber the stats magic johnson put up in the 91 finals game 5. Something like 17 pts and 20 assists. Great game offensively, but john paxson who avg about 8 ppg during the season (his man) scored like 20 pts on like 8 for 11 shooting. The lakers lost by what 8 pts? I keep remebering phil jackson pleading with michael to pass paxson the ball. And every time, paxson shot the ball, magic wasn't even in the picture frame. There's so many time when I watched games and someone put up amazing offensive numbers. But their counterpart is too.

As much as I hate to say it. Derrick rose to me is getting outplayed by his man. Teague. Maybbe not in the boxscore but overall. If he'd play better defensivly, the bulls would be preparing for the heat right now.

Even with rebounding. I remember in the 96 nba finals. The sonics believed they could just leave rodman and double jordan. The result? Rodman has a record setting rebounding series. There's just so many variables when talking sports.

Great Post.

But people aren't doing that with Pippen. If it was just about his stats, he wouldn't be anywhere near the top 25 all time. I think people do a very good job understanding that Pippen's value went way beyond the box score.

The Howard example you use is somewhat misleading. The fact that he can put up 33 and 19 is hugely important. The problem is that the other team can afford to let him do that because his team sucks around him. If he had a great team with another great player, Howard's ability to put those numbers up would be huge in terms of importance.

And again. This really doesn't have anything to do with Pippen for me. When discussing Wade, I just think Wade is an amazing player. He's a great scorer at high efficiency, he defends pretty well on the ball and is a very very good team defender. He's a solid rebounder for his position and he's an excellent play maker. He also has that "take over ability" that not many guys all time have.

Its not a knock on Pippen. I just think what Wade brings to the table is more impactful.

And when were are projecting Wade to put more titles on his resume and 4 or 5 more years of high level play, Wade has everything. All time great numbers and play and a ton of team and individual success.

But that is just my take on basketball. I think a player like Wade or Kobe brings more to the table than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Great Post.

But people aren't doing that with Pippen. If it was just about his stats, he wouldn't be anywhere near the top 25 all time. I think people do a very good job understanding that Pippen's value went way beyond the box score.

The Howard example you use is somewhat misleading. The fact that he can put up 33 and 19 is hugely important. The problem is that the other team can afford to let him do that because his team sucks around him. If he had a great team with another great player, Howard's ability to put those numbers up would be huge in terms of importance.

And again. This really doesn't have anything to do with Pippen for me. When discussing Wade, I just think Wade is an amazing player. He's a great scorer at high efficiency, he defends pretty well on the ball and is a very very good team defender. He's a solid rebounder for his position and he's an excellent play maker. He also has that "take over ability" that not many guys all time have.

Its not a knock on Pippen. I just think what Wade brings to the table is more impactful.

And when were are projecting Wade to put more titles on his resume and 4 or 5 more years of high level play, Wade has everything. All time great numbers and play and a ton of team and individual success.

But that is just my take on basketball. I think a player like Wade or Kobe brings more to the table than Pippen.
As long as you acknowledge that in a different role, pippen a 25 8 and 8 player we have no argument. If wade wins 4 championships id agree he jumps pippen.

[catch24]

Lmao at the same garbage... predicting numbers and production is strictly fantasy talk.

[DMAVS41]

As long as you acknowledge that in a different role, pippen a 25 8 and 8 player we have no argument. If wade wins 4 championships id agree he jumps pippen.

I can't acknowledge something I don't know.

Thats like me countering that Wade would be a 37/8/8 player in the 80s. Who knows.

[97 bulls]

Lmao at the same garbage... predicting numbers and production is strictly fantasy talk.
As is evvery discussion that involves player thatt are equally great in different roles and eras. But why are you responding? I owned you last month on this topic

[catch24]

As is evvery discussion that involves player thatt are equally great in different roles and eras. But why are you responding? I owned you last month on this topic

Yeah you sure owned me; I mean you did a wonderful job with number crunching (like the other thread) and all, but at the end of the day, they are just that - pure fantasy. C'mon son, you got nuttin.

[97 bulls]

I can't acknowledge something I don't know.

Thats like me countering that Wade would be a 37/8/8 player in the 80s. Who knows.
Come on mavs. This is all speculation. Your responding like a politician. Your not dumb or ignorant. And you seem to be well rounded as a basketball fan. Don't dance around it with I don't know. Answer with your best guessimation. Which I thought you did.

[DMAVS41]

Come on mavs. This is all speculation. Your responding like a politician. Your not dumb or ignorant. And you seem to be well rounded as a basketball fan. Don't dance around it with I don't know. Answer with your best guessimation. Which I thought you did.

Ok.

I think Pippen could have peaked at around 25/7/7

However, there is so much that we have to talk about with stats. I mean. Chris Webber averaged 21/10/4 for his career.

So what? That stat line is absurd....yet everyone in the world knows that Webber isn't a top 25 player of all time.

Could Pippen put up those numbers and lead teams to titles? I have no idea. Could Pippen take over and lead his team in tight games consistently? I have no idea.

Its like you want to credit Pippen for some godly stat line and then also still give him his 6 titles. I can tell you right now that if Pippen was the best player on his team his entire career he would have been lucky to win more than 1 title.

I mean, we saw what prime pippen was. He was 22/9/6 on good efficiency.

No need to project. But could he sustain that and lead teams to titles? I have no idea......

I don't think Pippen is a true number 1 option.

[97 bulls]

Yeah you sure owned me; I mean you did a wonderful job with number crunching (like the other thread) and all, but at the end of the day, they are just that - pure fantasy. C'mon son, you got nuttin.
Lol you know what's funny? JJavat90 came in here with the same way of thinking as you. Wades better cuz he scored more yada yada yada. Then I say well aside from 06, wades not really done much but put up great stats, unlike pippen whose gone deep in the playoffs every year. And the response is "WELL IF WADE HAD THE TEAMS PIPPEN DID, HE'D ALREADY HAVE 5 RINGS". So its ok to go to hypotheticals when its convenient for you but when I do it, im in fantasy land.

Hypocrite

[catch24]

Lol you know what's funny? JJavat90 came in here with the same way of thinking as you. Wades better cuz he scored more yada yada yada. Then I say well aside from 06, wades not really done much but put up great stats, unlike pippen whose gone deep in the playoffs every year. And the response is "WELL IF WADE HAD THE TEAMS PIPPEN DID, HE'D ALREADY HAVE 5 RINGS". So its ok to go to hypotheticals when its convenient for you but when I do it, im in fantasy land.

Hypocrite

Well, thats because the gap in scoring between the two is significant. And no, he's put up great stats this season, in '09 and been very consistent in the playoffs for his career; not just in '06 as you claim (take a gander at his statline vs Boston last year). The difference between you and I is I'm all about facts. Always go by the evidence; you on the other hand just continue to dance around the real points and rely on excuses/backtracking.

I don't remember saying anything in the bold; and even if I did, I was probably mocking you and your clown-like logic.

[97 bulls]

Ok.

I think Pippen could have peaked at around 25/7/7

However, there is so much that we have to talk about with stats. I mean. Chris Webber averaged 21/10/4 for his career.

So what? That stat line is absurd....yet everyone in the world knows that Webber isn't a top 25 player of all time.

Could Pippen put up those numbers and lead teams to titles? I have no idea. Could Pippen take over and lead his team in tight games consistently? I have no idea.

Its like you want to credit Pippen for some godly stat line and then also still give him his 6 titles. I can tell you right now that if Pippen was the best player on his team his entire career he would have been lucky to win more than 1 title.

I mean, we saw what prime pippen was. He was 22/9/6 on good efficiency.

No need to project. But could he sustain that and lead teams to titles? I have no idea......

I don't think Pippen is a true number 1 option.
This is where comparisons get murky. Remember the shaq olajuwan comparison? I feel webber is in a similar boat PF wise. I think webber had more talent than kevin garnett. But id take garnett over him. Webber never maximzed all his potential.

And I know pippen could never lead a team to 6 championships. But I do feel. He could maybe get one maybe 2. And get a dpoy award if he didn't have to compete with all those centers. And I don't care if he didn't take over games offensivly. He could do it in many different ways as I've shown. You keep saying that why? That's one thing we do agree on. I mean, he has taken over games offensivelybut never at the magnitude of wade consistantly. But wade has never been able to shut a team down like pippen. Shut down a scorer? Yes. But a team ? At the magnitude of a great defensive center? Never.

[97 bulls]

Well, thats because the gap in scoring between the two is significant. And no, he's put up great stats this season, in '09 and been very consistent in the playoffs for his career; not just in '06 as you claim (take a gander at his statline vs Boston last year). The difference between you and I is I'm all about facts. Always go by the evidence; you on the other hand just continue to dance around the real points and rely on excuses/backtracking.

I don't remember saying anything in the bold; and even if I did, I was probably mocking you and your clown-like logic.
Ok, tell me who in your opinion the greatest team ever is.

[Maestro33]

We should also compare the stats of any two stars facing Jordan Pippen and Bron Wade to....Mike and Scottie shut m'fers DOWN

[B-Easy]

We should also compare the stats of any two stars facing Jordan Pippen and Bron Wade to....Mike and Scottie shut m'fers DOWN

Wade and Lebron have been elite on defense all season ...

they did a very good job of guarding Allen/Pierce .. and forcing turnovers. its mind blowing how underrated Wade is on defense.

[catch24]

Ok, tell me who in your opinion the greatest team ever is.

Why is this relevant?

[97 bulls]

Why is this relevant?
Oh its relevant. Im asking to prove a point

[catch24]

Oh its relevant. Im asking to prove a point

I don't have a GOAT team.

'64 Celtics, '67 Sixers, '72 Lakers, '85 Lakers, '86 Celtics, '92 Bulls, '96 Bulls, and the '01 Lakers are in the same stratosphere, at least to me.

[97 bulls]

I don't have a GOAT team.

'64 Celtics, '67 Sixers, '72 Lakers, '85 Lakers, '86 Celtics, '92 Bulls, '96 Bulls, and the '01 Lakers are in the same stratosphere, at least to me.
The 96 bulls should be in your opinion the best team ever. They have the best record ever. And wilt is the best player ever, john stockton is the all-time leader in assists. He's the best passer ever. Steve kerr is the best 3pt shooter ever. Do you agree?

[bond10]

Lebron and D Wade would beat Jordan and Pippen in a 2v2.

I have spoken.
/thread

[TheMan]

Pippen didn't have more responsibilities than Wade in 08-10. He was their guy to control the offense, he was their best perimeter defender, and he was the guy who they look for in the clutch. Not only did Wade brought the production that Pippen never achieved, he carried a team that people thought won't make it to the playoffs. Pippen could never do that to the extent of Wade. And if Pippen could score a lot, he would've in the seasons where Jordan wasn't there. Sometimes the Bulls would be missing a go to guy and a person who could score a lot, and Pippen was never that guy. Later on his career, around his prime, he shot at a worse percentage from the field and FT line. Especially in the playoffs.

Pippen was never a 25+ ppg guy. And if you think "Oh, if he take more shots?" then you might as well say that about a lot guys who average borderline 20 ppg. Pippen could average more points depending on the circumstances, but Pippen couldn't do it as the main option within the Bulls system, and that wasn't his game.

And Pippen didn't take over the game like other perimeter stars. Wilkins took over the games more than Pippen.

And I don't know what you mean by Pippen would be better taking Wade's role. I mean, I really doubt Pippen do what Wade did in 04-06 and 08-10. But if you are talking about current Miami Heat, then maybe. It's a give and take deal. People would be more incline to double team if Pippen was on the team and not Wade. But in turn, you'll have a more fluent team.

But I'm not saying Pippen was a srub, because he wasn't. He might've been the best SF out of the 90s. But I doubt Pippen is on Wade's level.

You really didn't pay attention to basketball in the 90's huh?

[catch24]

The 96 bulls should be in your opinion the best team ever. They have the best record ever. And wilt is the best player ever, john stockton is the all-time leader in assists. He's the best passer ever. Steve kerr is the best 3pt shooter ever. Do you agree?

The best regular season record; the Lakers in 2001 had the greatest postseason record.

I ask again, what point are you trying to prove? I see no relevance in asking me who the 'greatest team' is.

[TheMan]

I have Pippen in my top 35.

Wade is on another level though....Wade's on his way to that top 15. At some point people will have to just accept. Oh that will be the day Wade actually gets acknowledged as an all time great player.


He's gonna need some monster years coming up, I don't see it, top 30 maybe.

[97 bulls]

The best regular season record; the Lakers in 2001 had the greatest postseason record.

I ask again, what point are you trying to prove? I see no relevance in asking me who the 'greatest team' is.
That's an indication that they got hot. But that's fine. The point is the FACTS since that what you go only, show that john stockton is a better pg than magic. The fact is steve kerr is the best 3pt shooter ever. Etc etc. Right?

[97 bulls]

And now that I think about it the 96 bulls are still the best team ever going by your reasoning, cuz from game 1 to to the last game of the championship they have the best record ever. Not the 01 lakers

[catch24]

That's an indication that they got hot. But that's fine. The point is the FACTS since that what you go only, show that john stockton is a better pg than magic. The fact is steve kerr is the best 3pt shooter ever. Etc etc. Right?

You gotta use context with any debate and/or comparison. I'm not the one crunching and guessing what someone's scoring/production output would be and then passing it off as some sort of fact.

To the bold - why would I? I don't think that at all; Magic's accolades, accomplishments, awards, honors all trump Stockton by a pretty hefty margin.

[97 bulls]

You gotta use context with any debate and/or comparison. I'm not the one crunching and guessing what someone's scoring/production output would be and then passing it off as some sort of fact.

Why would I to the bold? I don't think that at all; Magic's accolades, accomplishments, awards, honors all trump Stockton by a pretty hefty margin.
Ohhhhhhh ok. When it suits you, its called context. But when I do it, it called fantasy. You said you go solely by the facts. Well the fact is stockton is the all-time leader in assists. Thus he's the best pg/passer ever. Be consistant.

[Teanett]

And now that I think about it the 96 bulls are still the best team ever going by your reasoning, cuz from game 1 to to the last game of the championship they have the best record ever. Not the 01 lakers
:rockon:

[NugzHeat3]

To the bold - why would I? I don't think that at all; Magic's accolades, accomplishments, awards, honors all trump Stockton by a pretty hefty margin.
All 4 of these are pretty much the same thing, man. No major difference between any of those. I don't know why I felt the need to point that out lol.

[Teanett]

let it go, bulls97.
catch is famous for twisting any topic to his argumentational needs.

[MJ23forever]

Ohhhhhhh ok. When it suits you, its called context. But when I do it, it called fantasy. You said you go solely by the facts. Well the fact is stockton is the all-time leader in assists. Thus he's the best pg/passer ever. Be consistant.

:facepalm

you know there is a difference between using context and just random speculation....

[catch24]

Ohhhhhhh ok. When it suits you, its called context. But when I do it, it called fantasy. You said you go solely by the facts. Well the fact is stockton is the all-time leader in assists. Thus he's the best pg/passer ever. Be consistant.

Except what you're doing is fantasy. You have been estimating/guessing and telling people to admit Pippen would have 'x' amount of points/rebounds/assists. Magic actually accomplished what I listed.

[TheMan]

Scottie's game and stats are actually hindered by playing in the triangle offense. I don't really see the whole: "well he was playing with jordan" logic, but it's more the system. I don't think a lot of people realize how good of a point guard Pippen was. When he was drafted and interviewed he said from the beginning that he expected to be a pg...problem is, is that the triangle offense doesn't really have a legitimate pg...he started offensive schemes at the top, but it's a passing offense. I used to watch the Blazers a lot when he was on the team and that was about the only time that he got to actually be a true ball dominant pg, particularly in 2002 when he averaged 5.9apg in 32.2mpg at 36 years old. If he can do that at 36 I don't see how he could not have averaged 8-10apg regularly in an offense where he was allowed to be ball dominant. He was an excellent pg to...he had such a calming effect on that Blazers team and whenever he went out the entire offense would fall apart. Scottie is easily the closest player to a Magic Johnson.

Besides that, the triangle offense is a slow, calculated offense. The Bulls were regularly 20 or higher in pace. What was Pippen's best attribute offensively? His ability in the open court. He was literally a one man fast break...he could handle the ball, he had the athleticism and length to get to one end to the other quicker than pretty much anyone, and he finished with the best of them...you replace Pippen with Marion on the Suns or Carmelo on the Nuggets and he would easily average 25ppg in those up tempo systems. He would just average more points from going to the ft line more...though ironically he never got any calls when he was with the Bulls (that could be the Jordan effect) and would get hammered regularly with no calls...though considering he just finished over everyone it usually didn't matter. On a side note, there's another thing I miss...seeing players play to score at the rim and not to get the foul. Scottie went to the rim with bad intentions and if you were in the way you were going to be a poster.

He also had a very solid post up game that he never got to utilize much. Anyway like I said, if Scottie had played outside of the triangle offense during his prime I'm positive his numbers would have been a lot higher...particularly his assist if he was being the teams PG.
Excellent post, Pippen would have big offensive numbers in an up tempo system...

[catch24]

let it go, bulls97.
catch is famous for twisting any topic to his argumentational needs.

"Argumentational"... really? :oldlol:

Still bitter about that thread you vanished from I see.

[catch24]

All 4 of these are pretty much the same thing, man. No major difference between any of those. I don't know why I felt the need to point that out lol.

True :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Excellent post, Pippen would have big offensive numbers in an up tempo system...
No no no. See when you're talking about pippen, then you must go solelyy by numbers. Not the context of which his numbers were attained. But in every other situation, its ok to use context.

[MJ23forever]

Except what you're doing is fantasy. You have been estimating/guessing and telling people to admit Pippen would have 'x' amount of points/rebounds/assists. Magic actually accomplished what I listed.

im done with this guy.

seriously how overrated can one player be? apparently he would take pippen over not just wade..but magic and kobe.

not only that but pippen would make the 1st team over bird in the 80s...but that's not all..according to 97 bulls pippen was the true mvp of the 2nd 3-peat bulls. :facepalm

it honestly boggles my mind that there are actually people out there that actually believe such non-sense.

[Teanett]

"Argumentational"... really? :oldlol:

Still bitter about that thread you vanished from I see.

still can't understand anything but 16-year-old-internet-thug-speak i see.
let help you: it means something like "to make a point".

[97 bulls]

Except what you're doing is fantasy. You have been estimating/guessing and telling people to admit Pippen would have 'x' amount of points/rebounds/assists. Magic actually accomplished what I listed.
What im doing is no different than when people (possibly you) say things like the bulls only won 72 games cuz of the era. And that, if they played in the 80s, they wouldn't be as dominant. But when pippen comes up, the fact that he played in a stagnant offense, in aa stagnant era, behind the biggest shot taker, in the most defensive minded era does not mean a thing.

Just admit it. Your a hypocrite and your statements and opinions are worthless cuz of that.

[catch24]

im done with this guy.

seriously how overrated can one player be? apparently he would take pippen over not just wade..but magic and kobe.

not only that but pippen would make the 1st team over bird in the 80s...but that's not all..according to 97 bulls pippen was the true mvp of the 2nd 3-peat bulls. :facepalm

it honestly boggles my mind that there are actually people out there that actually believe such non-sense.

Yeah, I don't know what his fantasia is with Pippen :oldlol:

I know Pippen was better than his career stats say (like MJ--the guy averaged 51% shooting as a Bull, yet finished 49% for his career). It's just this kid continues to overrate the crap out of Pippen and rely on what-ifs. Wade actually scored 30ppg; you won't see me saying, well Wade in the right offense would average 35ppg and finally get the due recognition he deserves

It's sad he doesn't get the difference between using perspective and guesstimating.

[catch24]

still can't understand anything but 16-year-old-internet-thug-speak i see.
let help you: it means something like "to make a point".

Thug? What the hell are you talking about? :roll:

I got you tripping over your words; you're not even making sense now.

[catch24]

What im doing is no different than when people (possibly you) say things like the bulls only won 72 games cuz of the era. And that, if they played in the 80s, they wouldn't be as dominant. But when pippen comes up, the fact that he played in a stagnant offense, in aa stagnant era, behind the biggest shot taker, in the most defensive minded era does not mean a thing.

Just admit it. Your a hypocrite and your statements and opinions are worthless cuz of that.

No; not even a possibility. I don't do that kind of stuff. Everything I've said in this thread is backed with evidence; you? Not so much.

Two can play your game: Just admit your a numbers crunching-fantasy playing-homosexual who wants Pippen in his bedroom.

[NugzHeat3]

I remember lurking in a thread regarding the Bulls 2nd 3-peat championship teams. In that very thread, 97 Bulls said Pippen was just as important as Jordan in terms of their team success and he was dead serious. No intentions of trolling, whatsoever. I've seen several absurd things said on this forum but that one might take the cake.

[97 bulls]

im done with this guy.

seriously how overrated can one player be? apparently he would take pippen over not just wade..but magic and kobe.

not only that but pippen would make the 1st team over bird in the 80s...but that's not all..according to 97 bulls pippen was the true mvp of the 2nd 3-peat bulls. :facepalm

it honestly boggles my mind that there are actually people out there that actually believe such non-sense.
Dude, why post? I've never seen anything constructive you added to this forum. Sometimes the truth hurts. When comparing anything, you must look at context. And what I said is not unreasonable. In fact, no person has ever said that pippen in the 80s wouldn't score 24 ppg with 8 rbds and 8 asts. Im sorry those are larry bird type numbers. Sure in his situation in chicago he never had a chance to produce all-time numbers. But that doesn't mean he couldn't. And him scoring 22, 9, 7, and leading a terrible team to an above 500 record while leadin his team in every category is great. He just never got the chance. And my gripe is when people say dumb stuff like he couldn't. Cuz in his brief year, he did.

Its funny cuz len bias never played in the nba but everybody is convinced he would've been a best. Pippen put up beastly numbers in the low scoring 90s but that's a fluke.

[97 bulls]

Ok
Yeah, I don't know what his fantasia is with Pippen :oldlol:

I know Pippen was better than his career stats say (like MJ--the guy averaged 51% shooting as a Bull, yet finished 49% for his career). It's just this kid continues to overrate the crap out of Pippen and rely on what-ifs. Wade actually scored 30ppg; you won't see me saying, well Wade in the right offense would average 35ppg and finally get the due recognition he deserves

It's sad he doesn't get the difference between using perspective and guesstimating.
So what wade scores 30 ppg. That's not pippens game. Is that the only way you get respect is to score 30 ppg? Pippen was the pg. Pgs don't score 30 ppg. He dominated his role just like wade. I think every pro-pippen advocate acknowledge pippen was a 30 point scorer.

And like I said. Why is it when I say someting its what ifs? But when you do it, its called context?

[catch24]

Ok
So what wade scores 30 ppg. That's not pippens game. Is that the only way you get respect is to score 30 ppg? Pippen was the pg. Pgs don't score 30 ppg. He dominated his role just like wade. I think every pro-pippen advocate acknowledge pippen was a 30 point scorer.

And like I said. Why is it when I say someting its what ifs? But when you do it, its called context?

:facepalm

that was just an example; you were inflating Pipp's PPG/reb/ast, lol

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

you know there is a difference between using context and just random speculation....
Yes pippen scored 20 ppg. According to you in any era, that's the best he could achieve. I disagree. The context comes in when you apply the situations pippen was in to get those 20 ppg.

What do you think pippen does in the 80 with the uptempo style, or the 00s with the rule changes?

[juju151111]

I was thinking of replying to this thread like 5 pages ago, but i didn't. I can't reply to someone who thinks Pippen is better then Bird and Magic. Which means Mj was playing with a top 5 player ever.:facepalm

[catch24]

I was thinking of replying to this thread like 5 pages ago, but i didn't. I can't reply to someone who thinks Pippen is better then Bird and Magic. Which means Mj was playing with a top 5 player ever.:facepalm

:oldlol: who said that?

[tpols]

Ok
So what wade scores 30 ppg. That's not pippens game. Is that the only way you get respect is to score 30 ppg? Pippen was the pg. Pgs don't score 30 ppg. He dominated his role just like wade. I think every pro-pippen advocate acknowledge pippen was a 30 point scorer.

And like I said. Why is it when I say someting its what ifs? But when you do it, its called context?
I think Pippen was a great overall player, but how was he a 30ppg scorer? In his prime, even without MJ, he was a 47-48% scorer with a max volume of 22ppg. He was a very smart player, but wasn't the best shooter and wasn't nearly as good a slasher[as wade].

You say pippen could have been a 30ppg scorer, yet he never even came close. And even if you say he could have done it if he would've focused on it instead of being a distributor, that would have taken away completely from his 'overall' game that everyone praises him for. He wouldn't even be the same player.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

that was just an example; you were inflating Pipp's PPG/reb/ast, lol
Ok, then you tell me what pippen does in this era and the 80s. Since yours is context and mine is fantasy.

And don't dance around it, or say you don't know. Or try to answer politically. Just give me your opinion and why you say it.

[Teanett]

Thug? What the hell are you talking about? :roll:

I got you tripping over your words; you're not even making sense now.

of course you're not a thug and you never make sense.

[97 bulls]

I think Pippen was a great overall player, but how was he a 30ppg scorer? In his prime, even without MJ, he was a 47-48% scorer with a max volume of 22ppg. He was a very smart player, but wasn't the best shooter and wasn't nearly as good a slasher[as wade].

You say pippen could have been a 30ppg scorer, yet he never even came close. And even if you say he could have done it if he would've focused on it instead of being a distributor, that would have taken away completely from his 'overall' game that everyone praises him for. He wouldn't even be the same player.
I never said pippen was a 30 ppg scorer, never said it. I said his stats are skewed cuz he played pg in the triangle and alongside jordan. Not to mention in a slow paced era tempo wise. Teams just didn't run in the 90s. I said at best pippen get 25 ppg but he avg about 23 to 24 ppg with a few more assists and rebounds. If he played in his prime.

[catch24]

Ok, then you tell me what pippen does in this era and the 80s. Since yours is context and mine is fantasy.

And don't dance around it, or say you don't know. Or try to answer politically. Just give me your opinion and why you say it.

He's basically a mix between circa 1st 3-peat and '94. His numbers may look the same, may be better; I don't know in all honesty.