So tired of these LeBron/Wade > Pippen threads.

[ConanRulesNBC]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.

[G-train]

You are drunk.

[LAClipsFan33]

He'd be top 5 for sure

Hands down best ? No.

[kaiiu]

he'd be top 3 behind dwight and wade

[Human Error]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.
Prime Pippen was still only a top 6-8 player in the league. He was solid, but let's not overrate him. LeBron, Dwight, Wade, Durant, Chris Paul, Nowitzki would be all better than Pippen.

[jrong]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.

Ok, we'll trust your opinion over all the objective data that says LeBron and Wade are (much) better.

[DMAVS41]

Ok, we'll trust your opinion over all the objective data that says LeBron and Wade are (much) better.

Would Pippen even be top 5 right now?

Not for me

Lebron
Wade
Howard
Dirk
Durant

I'd take them all over just about any version of Pippen.

[DWade06]

I'm sure he would, i'm sure he would

[Smoke117]

Would Pippen even be top 5 right now?

Not for me

Lebron
Wade
Howard
Dirk
Durant

I'd take them all over just about any version of Pippen.

I could see the first four, but Durant? All Durant does is score. Pippen annihilates him in every other aspect of the game. Kevin Durant is probably the most overrated player in the league right now. He's a more efficient Carmelo Anthony, but neither do jack shit besides score.

[97 bulls]

He would be top 3. 25 pts 9 rbds and 8 assts in the perimeter friendly era. With great defense.

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

WOW some of you Guy are nutts:oldlol:

[ConanRulesNBC]

Rose & prime Pippen would > LeBron & Wade.

LeBron & Wade aren't even in the same league as Jordan & Pippen.

[Lebron23]

Wade and LeBron are superior players than Prime Pippen. I want to see Prime Pippen play for the Cavaliers. They probably win 40 games.

[moe94]

What an absurd thing to say. You're implying that this era is horrific in comparison to the 90's if Pippen is somehow the best player in the league today, let alone "clearly". Let the nostalgia go.

[lovethetriangle]

Kobe's name hasn't come up! My how life has changed

[ConanRulesNBC]

What an absurd thing to say. You're implying that this era is horrific in comparison to the 90's if Pippen is somehow the best player in the league today, let alone "clearly". Let the nostalgia go.

It's not nostalgia. This is such a weak era compared to the '80s and '90s. Jordan would probably average 35 PPG. Prime Scottie Pippen would dominate in the league right now. Teams from the '90s that the Jordan Bulls beat would dominate the best teams in the league right now. Do you really think any of the top teams in the league right now would be able to stand a chance against the Shaq & Penny Magic? Or the Payton/Kemp Sonics or the Malone/Stockton Jazz? Or the '90s Pacers and Knicks? The top teams in the league right now would get destroyed playing against most of the top '90s teams.

[KingBeasley08]

It's not nostalgia. This is such a weak era compared to the '80s and '90s. Jordan would probably average 35 PPG. Prime Scottie Pippen would dominate in the league right now. Teams from the '90s that the Jordan Bulls beat would dominate the best teams in the league right now. Do you really think any of the top teams in the league right now would be able to stand a chance against the Shaq & Penny Magic? Or the Payton/Kemp Sonics or the Malone/Stockton Jazz? Or the '90s Pacers and Knicks? The top teams in the league right now would get destroyed playing against most of the top '90s teams.
:sleeping

Pippen as best player :roll:

[skaterbasist]

Prime Pippen is highly underrated. People ignore how dominant he was in practically every aspect of the game.

[OldSchoolBBall]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.

Geez... :oldlol:

[BlackJoker23]

teach me how to troll bro. like that song where the guy teaches you how to dougie.

prime pippen was second best in the league right behind mj. when mj retired, pippen was the best in 94 and 95 and robbed of mvp. need not neglecy, he would've led scrubs to a title if it wasn't for hue hollins.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He would be top 3. 25 pts 9 rbds and 8 assts in the perimeter friendly era. With great defense.

lmao @ 25/9/8. :oldlol: Try 23/8/6 or 25/7/5-6.

[WadeBronDonJuan]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.

FALSE

[kizut1659]

lmao @ 25/9/8. :oldlol: Try 23/8/6 or 25/7/5-6.

More like 21/7/6.

[97 bulls]

More like 21/7/6.
He turned in those numbers routinely in a slower era. Even better Wtf?

[97 bulls]

lmao @ 25/9/8. :oldlol: Try 23/8/6 or 25/7/5-6.
Your probably right. I was refering to pippen without jordan. But with jordan 23-24 8,7

[madmax]

Heat and Lebron hate is getting a bit out of hand lately:wtf: Seems like haters are losing a plot and clutching for the last straws to diminish them...by the time June arrives a lot of them will be seeing a therapist me thinks:lol

[D.J.]

More like 21/7/6.


He put up 21/8/7 in '92. In a more perimeter friendly era, no more handchecking, and the emphasis on zone defense, there's no reason to think he couldn't push a triple-double.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Pippens game was never a volume scorer, but he's very versaille and a defensive specialist.

[Mach_3]

He turned in those numbers routinely in a slower era. Even better Wtf?

And a tougher defensive era, yall think Pippen can't put up better scoring numbers in an even more perimeter friendly era? :lol

[kizut1659]

He turned in those numbers routinely in a slower era. Even better Wtf?

Actually he had those numbers only for four seasons (1991 to 1995). I don't have the precise stats but i believe NBA scoring per game was still higher at least from 1991 to 1993 than it is now.

[hookul]

No surprise that two Chicago homers are the only weirdos here. Pippen better than Lebron? Dear lord.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Pippen is probably the best SF of all-time and one of the best defensive players ever if not the best. He is better then MJ at defense.

[D.J.]

Pippen is probably the best SF of all-time


Bird and Dr. J. say hi.

[DMAVS41]

Pippen is probably the best SF of all-time and one of the best defensive players ever if not the best. He is better then MJ at defense.

What?

Bird? for sure better
Lebron? for sure better
Hondo? for sure better
Baylor? for sure better
Dr. J? debatable i guess

Pippen is 5th at best all time.

Holy shit. When did this Pippen over-rating happen?

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Bird and Dr. J. say hi.
Alright I forgot about Bird but I've always thought of Dr. J as more of a SG.

[D.J.]

Alright I forgot about Bird but I've always thought of Dr. J as more of a SG.


Nope. Doc played the 3.

[DMAVS41]

Alright I forgot about Bird but I've always thought of Dr. J as more of a SG.

nope.

check my post.

pippen is 5th at best.

[KingBeasley08]

Pippen is probably the best SF of all-time and one of the best defensive players ever if not the best. He is better then MJ at defense.

http://mob247.photobucket.com/albums/gg131/Deltacod/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

[HorryIsMyMVP]

What?
Bird? for sure better
Lebron? lol no
Hondo? lol no
Baylor? lol no
Dr. J? debatable

Pippen is 2nd or 3rd best of all-time

llllllllllll

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

Bird? for sure better
Lebron? lol no
Hondo? lol no
Baylor? lol no
Dr. J? debatable

Pippen is 3rd or 4th best of all-time
[QUOTE]


pippen has no argument over hondo/baylor/lebron...none.

sorry. no case at all.

[D.J.]

For those that are debating Pippen and LeBron, ask yourself this:


Are you willing to part with 30/7/7 and in return, get 21/7/7 with GOAT-like perimeter defense and equally good(if not better) ball handling? If you answer yes, then Pippen is above LeBron.

[kaiiu]

Pippen over any SF except Bird.

/thread

[HorryIsMyMVP]

For those that are debating Pippen and LeBron, ask yourself this:


Are you willing to part with 30/7/7 and in return, get 21/7/7 with GOAT-like perimeter defense and equally good(if not better) ball handling? If you answer yes, then Pippen is above LeBron.
Yes. I'll take the goat like defense thank you very much.

[hookul]

For those that are debating Pippen and LeBron, ask yourself this:


Are you willing to part with 30/7/7 and in return, get 21/7/7 with GOAT-like perimeter defense and equally good(if not better) ball handling? If you answer yes, then Pippen is above LeBron.

Are you all idiots? How and why would Pippen be all of the sudden a 7 apg player? In his prime years he was on average 6 apg game player while LEbron is >7 apg.

When and how did Pippen ever lead a team to anything? Why oh why would anyone take a 21/7/7 player over a 30/7/7 player when the 2nd player commands double teams, scores those points and has gameplans designed for him to stop him and is a great defensive player as well?

Pippen at 3-5th best SF ever is alright. He is for sure behind Bird (this cannot even be debated) and for sure also behind Lebron (anyone who debates this needs his brains checked). The others I cannot comment, I have not seen them. But in front of Lebron and Bird?

[D.J.]

Are you all idiots? How and why would Pippen be all of the sudden a 7 apg player? In his prime years he was on average 6 apg game player while LEbron is >7 apg.


Pippen did average 7 APG, idiot. He put up 21/7/7 in '92. His assists went back down when Jordan left and he had to shoot and attack the hoop more.



When and how did Pippen ever lead a team to anything? Why oh why would anyone take a 21/7/7 player over a 30/7/7 player when the 2nd player commands double teams, scores those points and has gameplans designed for him to stop him and is a great defensive player as well?


The only full season without MJ, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and that was with Pete Myers replacing MJ. LeBron is not a great defensive player. He is a good help defender and an average-slightly above on-ball defender. He's far from great in that aspect.



Pippen at 3-5th best SF ever is alright. He is for sure behind Bird (this cannot even be debated) and for sure also behind Lebron (anyone who debates this needs his brains checked). The others I cannot comment, I have not seen them. But in front of Lebron and Bird?


When LeBron wins titles, then he can be debated over Pippen. Pippen is 3rd at the SF position, but after Bird and Dr. J.

[Rnbizzle]

For real though, Pippen wouldn't be top 10 right now. I love him but seriously;

Lebron
Wade
Kobe
Dwight
Melo
Durant
Dirk
Rose
CP3
Deron

All are better.
Inb4 my crucifixion haha

[hookul]

Pippen did average 7 APG, idiot. He put up 21/7/7 in '92. His assists went back down when Jordan left and he had to shoot and attack the hoop more.



J.

Can you read? I wrote in his prime years he averaged 6 apg. Which is certainly true...you are taking his best year out 91-96 and cherrypick and extrapolate that this is the production he would be regularly capable of. This is nonsense. Otherwise I could also proclaim that Lebron is a 8.6 apg and 31 ppg player...and this would be his "regular production"

[Kyle_korver]

IMO, you put a prime Scottie Pippen in the league right now and he'd be the best player in the league, easily.

Pippen in today's game would get 50 dropped on him by Kevin martin n foul out

[Rnbizzle]

Scottie Pippen = Andre Iguodala

Which is nothing to be ashamed of.

[D.J.]

Can you read? I wrote in his prime years he averaged 6 apg. Which is certainly true...you are taking his best year out 91-96 and cherrypick and extrapolate that this is the production he would be regularly capable of. This is nonsense. Otherwise I could also proclaim that Lebron is a 8.6 apg and 31 ppg player...and this would be his "regular production"


Drop the tude little boy. Stats aside, LeBron won't surpass Pippen without a title.

[97 bulls]

Actually he had those numbers only for four seasons (1991 to 1995). I don't have the precise stats but i believe NBA scoring per game was still higher at least from 1991 to 1993 than it is now.
True. But I believe from 94 to 99. Scoring was wayyyy down. Im talking low 90s to 80s for the avg team. And pippen still managed 20 ppg. I think 92 when he was at 21 ppg would've been the start of some solid 23-24 ppg scoring seasons if the teams didn't focus on defense and the slow tempo so much. The fact that his scoring didn't decline but overall scoring did is an indication.

[97 bulls]

I alos think scoring now would be drastically higher if the league had 6 dominant bigs capable of scoring 26 ppg on better than 50% shooting.

[jrong]

Drop the tude little boy. Stats aside, LeBron won't surpass Pippen without a title.

He'll have one in a month.

[KingBeasley08]

Pippen in today's game would get 50 dropped on him by Kevin martin n foul out
:oldlol: :oldlol:

not that bad, but todays era would light pippen up

[ConanRulesNBC]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

not that bad, but todays era would light pippen up

Yeah, because with todays tough defense and players with higher basketball IQ's than players from the '80s and '90s this is such a better era of basketball... :rolleyes:

Didn't you also say that Wade & LeBron > Jordan & Pippen? :roll:

[Gifted Mind]

Someone who wasn't necessarily Top 3 at any point his career would be the best player in the NBA today? Don't you think that is just unfairly criticizing the current era?

[KingBeasley08]

Yeah, because with todays tough defense and players with higher basketball IQ's than players from the '80s and '90s this is such a better era of basketball... :rolleyes:

Didn't you also say that Wade & LeBron > Jordan & Pippen? :roll:
that was my nig OIAD. :roll: at acting like yesteryear's players are more athletic. pippen would get rocked by Lebron

[moe94]

For real though, Pippen wouldn't be top 10 right now. I love him but seriously;

Lebron
Wade
Kobe
Dwight
Melo
Durant
Dirk
Rose
CP3
Deron

All are better.
Inb4 my crucifixion hahaJesus. Are you retarded? This might be worse than claiming he's better than LeBron.

Saw the white out. Almost burst a vein.

[Javat_90]

Prime Scottie Pippen would probably rank exactly 5th in todays league, at least in my book.

I would only have Lebron, Wade, Howard and Kobe over him.

I see him as a more valuable and better all-around player then one-dimensional dudes like Carmelo, Durant, Amare...etc.

He would probably be in a close tie with Chris Paul for that 5th position, but Pippen`s size and incredible defense would give him the edge.

[Lebron23]

Drop the tude little boy. Stats aside, LeBron won't surpass Pippen without a title.


He's going to have more Finals MVP than Sidekick Pippen.

[knickswin]

dumb thread. yawn.

[Unstop]

more respect for pippen pls -.-

[az00m]

lollerskates i love scottie and all but he wasnt even a top 10 player most years he played in the league.

[97 bulls]

lollerskates i love scottie and all but he wasnt even a top 10 player most years he played in the league.
Even if this is true (which it isn't) scottie had the best collection of centers ever to compete with. The league was much better at the top in pippens era.

[NugzHeat3]

When LeBron wins titles, then he can be debated over Pippen. Pippen is 3rd at the SF position, but after Bird and Dr. J.
You're such an idiot. LeBron is a MUCH better player than Pippen. That is all that matters. Do you also "rank" Pippen over Charles Barkley and Karl Malone just because they never won a ring?

[donald_trump]

He put up 21/8/7 in '92. In a more perimeter friendly era, no more handchecking, and the emphasis on zone defense, there's no reason to think he couldn't push a triple-double.
:oldlol:

pippen was never a great shooter. in a era with a more packed middle and more jumpers hed suffer if anything.

21-23/7/7 sounds about right.

im guessing you think adrian dantley and kiki vandeweghe would average 30ppg in this era too.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

this era is slower and much harder to get good shots off in. you and 97 bulls know jack shit about basketball if you think you can pull a player from the 90's and have him averaging triple doubles and 25+ points because he put up 21/7/8 in the 90's

pippen would be a 8-10 ranked guy today, just like in his era.

lebron, wade, kobe, nowitzki, howard, rose, paul, durant are all better individual players.

[ConanRulesNBC]

He's going to have more Finals MVP than Sidekick Pippen.

:roll:

Like LeBron isn't Wade's sidekick?? I don't care how good LeBron is, the Miami Heat is Wade's team.

[donald_trump]

:roll:

Like LeBron isn't Wade's sidekick?? I don't care how good LeBron is, the Miami Heat is Wade's team.

and chicago is thibs' team.

[ConanRulesNBC]

this era is slower and much harder to get good shots off in. you and 97 bulls know jack shit about basketball if you think you can pull a player from the 90's and have him averaging triple doubles and 25+ points because he put up 21/7/8 in the 90's

:facepalm

Um... did you just start watching the NBA? The '90s > todays soft ass era.

[ConanRulesNBC]

and chicago is thibs' team.

Really? Thibs is out there scoring 30 points and averaging 10 assists? Then the Heat are really Spoelstra's team.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol:

pippen was never a great shooter. in a era with a more packed middle and more jumpers hed suffer if anything.

21-23/7/7 sounds about right.

im guessing you think adrian dantley and kiki vandeweghe would average 30ppg in this era too.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

this era is slower and much harder to get good shots off in. you and 97 bulls know jack shit about basketball if you think you can pull a player from the 90's and have him averaging triple doubles and 25+ points because he put up 21/7/8 in the 90's

pippen would be a 8-10 ranked guy today, just like in his era.

lebron, wade, kobe, nowitzki, howard, rose, paul, durant are all better individual players.
This is a dumb post. The top 10 players in pippens era are far and away better than the top 10 players since wades been in the league. Bryant and james are the only ones that have or are capable of craking the top 20 all-time. Pippens played in the same era as guys that have cracked the top 20. Dirk wont, Paul wont, howard might, and the others are too young and not even in their primes.

Pippen had shaq, jordan, malone, olajuwan, robinson, barkley, stockton, ewing, to compete with. That's far better than any top 7 you could name from 04 to now.

[donald_trump]

:facepalm

Um... did you just start watching the NBA? The '90s > todays soft ass era.

ive seen nothing that suggest so. players are still handchecking, pushing , elbowing as much as before.

all thats changed is more frequent callings of technicals and flagrant fouls.

not to mention the classic wirey build of a basketball player is not so typical today. players are much leaner, muscle bound and stronger.

[donald_trump]

Really? Thibs is out there scoring 30 points and averaging 10 assists? Then the Heat are really Spoelstra's team.

so lebrons not the one leading the heat in scoring, averaging more rebounds than wade, more assists, shooting a better percentage, playing more minutes and the one shooting the clutch shots?

[D.J.]

You're such an idiot. LeBron is a MUCH better player than Pippen. That is all that matters. Do you also "rank" Pippen over Charles Barkley and Karl Malone just because they never won a ring?


I've been watching ball since before you were born. Let the grown ups talk and go sit in the corner and STFU.



this era is slower and much harder to get good shots off in. you and 97 bulls know jack shit about basketball if you think you can pull a player from the 90's and have him averaging triple doubles and 25+ points because he put up 21/7/8 in the 90's


Stick with comb overs, Donald. Basketball isn't your area of expertise.

Pippen put up 21/7/7 with Jordan as his teammate and going up against guys such as Stockton, Dumars, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Olajuwon, Richmond, Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Mutombo, and company. The competition from the 90s >>> competition today.

[donald_trump]

This is a dumb post. The top 10 players in pippens era are far and away better than the top 10 players since wades been in the league. Bryant and james are the only ones that have or are capable of craking the top 20 all-time. Pippens played in the same era as guys that have cracked the top 20. Dirk wont, Paul wont, howard might, and the others are too young and not even in their primes.

Pippen had shaq, jordan, malone, olajuwan, robinson, barkley, stockton, ewing, to compete with. That's far better than any top 7 you could name from 04 to now.

i agree that those 7 are better, currently. lebron and kobe are a lock for top 10. wade will be top 20. rose could go down top 15 with the way his career is going. howard will more than likely be up there. paul will be better than stockton all time, hes already better individually. not like he has to get any rings to surpass him in rankings overall.
lol at underrating dirk.

[D.J.]

players are still handchecking, pushing , elbowing as much as before.


Did Vince McMahon hit you one too many times in the head?

Players handcheck and elbow just as much today = :roll: Go tell that to Laimbeer, Rodman, Malone, Mourning, Mutombo, and Shaq.

[97 bulls]

ive seen nothing that suggest so. players are still handchecking, pushing , elbowing as much as before.

all thats changed is more frequent callings of technicals and flagrant fouls.

not to mention the classic wirey build of a basketball player is not so typical today. players are much leaner, muscle bound and stronger.
Lol have you seen garnett, durant, gasol? Go back and look at dennis rodman, mourning, malone. Hell kendall gill is a friggn mma fighter now. At like 40. Players were just as yoked in the 90s.

[donald_trump]

Stick with comb overs, Donald. Basketball isn't your area of expertise.

Pippen put up 21/7/7 with Jordan as his teammate and going up against guys such as Stockton, Dumars, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Olajuwon, Richmond, Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Mutombo, and company. The competition from the 90s >>> competition today.

this generations wings are better than what scottie saw in the 90's.

comical coming from you. you think scottie pippen is better than lebron. there is no point in arguing with you. you can watch all the basketball you like, watching basketball doesnt cure stupid. bad luck for you.

[NugzHeat3]

I've been watching ball since before you were born. Let the grown ups talk and go sit in the corner and STFU.

Hey f*ckstick, you haven't seen sh!t since your head is stuck so far up your ass. Jump off a cliff and make the world a better place to live.

[D.J.]

this generations wings are better than what scottie saw in the 90's.

comical coming from you. you think scottie pippen is better than lebron. there is no point in arguing with you. you can watch all the basketball you like, watching basketball doesnt cure stupid. bad luck for you.


You can comb over the hole in your head all you want. My b-ball knowledge is superior to yours and always will be. You're a troll and a horrible one at that.



Hey f*ckstick, you haven't seen sh!t since your head is stuck so far up your ass. Jump off a cliff and make the world a better place to live.


Awww, poor baby is butt hurt. It's not your fault you're this stupid. Getting dropped on your head as a kid will do that.

[donald_trump]

Lol have you seen garnett, durant, gasol? Go back and look at dennis rodman, mourning, malone. Hell kendall gill is a friggn mma fighter now. At like 40. Players were just as yoked in the 90s.

are you mentioning rodman as some muscle bound freak? hes garnetts build.

im not saying there isnt big, burly players in every era, its just that this era of basketball is different from the previous one. play is slower, more calculated and the reason for it is bigger and stronger athletes on average.

[kaiiu]

Put Scottie Pippen on the 09 and 10 Cavs and he at least make the finals.

[donald_trump]

You can comb over the hole in your head all you want. My b-ball knowledge is superior to yours and always will be. You're a troll and a horrible one at that.


you think a second string star in scottie pippen is better than a two time mvp in lebron james who was touted as the player to become the next big thing and go down as the best ever according to larry bird.

i guess scottie got that praise as well.

[97 bulls]

Just off the top wades competition for top player since he's been in the league is, duncan, bryant, nowitzki, nash, garnett, james, howard, paul. That's nowhere near the top players of the 90s.

[NugzHeat3]

Awww, poor baby is butt hurt. It's not your fault you're this stupid. Getting dropped on your head as a kid will do that.
No, f*cktard, you calling me stupid is a compliment since you're quite possibly the biggest retard in existence. Mentally handicapped clowns like you infest this board with retardation and do a damn good job at it.

[donald_trump]

Put Scottie Pippen on the 09 and 10 Cavs and he at least make the finals.

put lebron on the 94 bulls and the win the title.

this game is fun.

[D.J.]

are you mentioning rodman as some muscle bound freak? hes garnetts build.


http://www.flisted.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/dennis-rodman.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XuJuckiofe8/TNlJZ74qvyI/AAAAAAAABE0/z5fAVMfezpE/s1600/kevin-garnett.p1.jpg


Rodman isn't as lanky as KG. He was also naturally strong.

[kaiiu]

put lebron on the 94 bulls and the win the title.

this game is fun.
I doubt Lebron gets past the Knicks. To physical for him...

[ConanRulesNBC]

i agree that those 7 are better, currently. lebron and kobe are a lock for top 10. wade will be top 20. rose could go down top 15 with the way his career is going. howard will more than likely be up there. paul will be better than stockton all time, hes already better individually. not like he has to get any rings to surpass him in rankings overall.
lol at underrating dirk.

Let's see Paul lead his team to two back to back NBA finals appearances first. Stockton > Paul. Not even close.

[donald_trump]

Rodman isn't as lanky as KG. He was also naturally strong.

rodman was 210lbs. wade is heavier than him. gilbert arenas is heavier than him. eric gordon is heavier than him.

these are all player 4 inches shorter than him.

[97 bulls]

are you mentioning rodman as some muscle bound freak? hes garnetts build.

im not saying there isnt big, burly players in every era, its just that this era of basketball is different from the previous one. play is slower, more calculated and the reason for it is bigger and stronger athletes on average.
Dennis rodman is garnetts build? Come on. Garnett is 7'0 and weights 230. Rodman was 6'8 and weights about the same. And the 90s had just as many athletic players as now. More when you count the centers.

[donald_trump]

I doubt Lebron gets past the Knicks. To physical for him...

i doubt scottie makes the playoffs with the cavs. not good enough...

[kaiiu]

i doubt scottie makes the playoffs with the cavs. not good enough...
Jamison
Mo
Shaq

thats 3 all stars beside the superstar Pippen. Im callin ring

[D.J.]

you think a second string star in scottie pippen is better than a two time mvp in lebron james who was touted as the player to become the next big thing and go down as the best ever according to larry bird.

i guess scottie got that praise as well.


When LeBron wins a title, we'll see. Until then, no.



No, f*cktard, you calling me stupid is a compliment since you're quite possibly the biggest retard in existence. Mentally handicapped clowns like you infest this board with retardation and do a damn good job at it.


:roll: That's the best you can come up with? Did you make it out of high school? Watch some ball and then you can debate with me.



put lebron on the 94 bulls and the win the title.

this game is fun.


LeBron couldn't even win a title with Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. You think he would win one with Pete Myers, B.J. Armstrong, Horace Grant, and 37 year old Bill Cartwright?

[donald_trump]

Jamison
Mo
Shaq

thats 3 all stars beside the superstar Pippen. Im callin ring

maybe if shaq gave him one.

i missed the 2010 all star game as well, how many did those 3 score all up?

[kaiiu]

maybe if shaq gave him one.
Maybe. Thats 4 20 ppg scorers right there along with Pippen. Not to mention Andy, Delonte,Parker and a great defense. Who would beat em?

[D.J.]

rodman was 210lbs. wade is heavier than him. gilbert arenas is heavier than him. eric gordon is heavier than him.

these are all player 4 inches shorter than him.


He was 210 as a rookie. He was 225-230 as a Spur and Bull.

[kaiiu]

maybe if shaq gave him one.

i missed the 2010 all star game as well, how many did those 3 score all up?
Mo was injured. Jamison wasnt on the Cavs yet and Lebron killed Shaqs production. And analyst were saying Mo and Shaq should have made it:violin: :sleeping

[donald_trump]

so if lebron averaged 18/3/4 next year but won, was the best on his team, hed be better than scottie somehow just because he won a ring?

how does he become a better player somehow despite not getting better as a player?
yet by your logic he could average 100ppg and not win, and somehow still be worse than pippen.

[donald_trump]

Mo was injured. Jamison wasnt on the Cavs yet and Lebron killed Shaqs production. And analyst were saying Mo and Shaq should have made it:violin: :sleeping

so the answer is 0? cool.

you would have thought jamison would have made it in that case. no lebron to kill his production.

[kaiiu]

so the answer is 0? cool.

you would have thought jamison would have made it in that case. no lebron to kill his production.
Jamison . Shaq. Mo. Pippen. Andy. Delonte. Parker thats a squad bruh

[PJR]

When LeBron wins a title, we'll see. Until then, no.

This is incredibly stupid logic. I suppose you believe Pippen was better than Barkely and Malone as well?

[donald_trump]

hey d.j. how come rose got selected first over mario chalmers in the draft? i mean, chalmers won the title, rose didnt.

how stupid were nba scouts rating rose better than chalmers! didnt they know that chalmers won a title and was better than rose?

idiots, right?

look at how silly they look now.

[kaiiu]

This is incredibly stupid logic. I suppose you believe Pippen was better than Barkely and Malone as well?
No because Barkley and Malone had Magic, Bird, and MJ keeping them from rings. Lebron had the washed up Cs and fluke Magic hold him back

[donald_trump]

Jamison . Shaq. Mo. Pippen. Andy. Delonte. Parker thats a squad bruh

why are you going off topic? are you not able to ask questions or do you avoid certain ones because theyd make you look stupid?

[NugzHeat3]

When LeBron wins a title, we'll see. Until then, no.





:roll: That's the best you can come up with? Did you make it out of high school? Watch some ball and then you can debate with me.





LeBron couldn't even win a title with Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. You think he would win one with Pete Myers, B.J. Armstrong, Horace Grant, and 37 year old Bill Cartwright?
I don't need to debate ball with someone who thinks Pippen was better than LeBron based on the amount of championships he won.

[D.J.]

This is incredibly stupid logic. I suppose you believe Pippen was better than Barkely and Malone as well?


Malone dominated for nearly 20 years, has the same number of MVPs, and was a fierce post defender. Barkley is one of the most versatile players ever, won an MVP(should have 2), and also dominated for well over 10 years. He was one of the most clutch players ever. Both players would have at least 1 ring if it weren't for a man named Michael Jordan.



hey d.j. how come rose got selected first over mario chalmers in the draft? i mean, chalmers won the title, rose didnt.

how stupid were nba scouts rating rose better than chalmers! didnt they know that chalmers won a title and was better than rose?

idiots, right?

look at how silly they look now.


Are you a f*cking idiot? Do you think this has anything to do with the topic? :oldlol: Scouts rated Hakeem Olajuwon and Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan too.

[kaiiu]

why are you going off topic? are you not able to ask questions or do you avoid certain ones because theyd make you look stupid?
JAMISON 2 TIME ALL STAR. MO 1 TIME ALL STAR. SHAQ 15 TIME ALL STAR.

Thats enough to win a ring

[D.J.]

I don't need to debate ball with someone who thinks Pippen was better than LeBron based on the amount of championships he won.


Because you don't know sh*t. My 25 years watching the NBA > anything you think or believe.

[donald_trump]

Are you a f*cking idiot? Do you think this has anything to do with the topic? :oldlol: Scouts rated Hakeem Olajuwon and Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan too.

thats your logic. its completely to do with the topic and what were discussing.

you said pippens better because he has more titles. so chalmers>rose correct?

[donald_trump]

JAMISON 2 TIME ALL STAR. MO 1 TIME ALL STAR. SHAQ 15 TIME ALL STAR.

Thats enough to win a ring

so how many did they score that year in the all star game?

[kaiiu]

so how many did they score that year in the all star game?
go check the box score i dont know. :confusedshrug:

[D.J.]

thats your logic. its completely to do with the topic and what were discussing.

you said pippens better because he has more titles. so chalmers>rose correct?


Chalmers didn't even win a title in the NBA. :roll: We're not talking about 1 title from Pippen. We're talking about 6.

[catch24]

thats your logic. its completely to do with the topic and what were discussing.

you said pippens better because he has more titles. so chalmers>rose correct?

Better in the sense of career rankings? If that's what he's saying, it's absolutely debatable.

[donald_trump]

go check the box score i dont know. :confusedshrug:

youre the one telling me theyre all stars that year. i dont need to check. show some proof.

[donald_trump]

Better in the sense of career rankings? If that's what he's saying, it's absolutely debatable.

i dont think youve seen him post enough to know the ever growing range of his stupidity. he means as players pippen is better. he thinks scottie pippen can play basketball better than lebron.

[D.J.]

Until LeBron wins a title, all he is, is simply a better version of Dominique Wilkins. There's no reason a player of his calibur can't win at least 1 ring.

[kaiiu]

youre the one telling me theyre all stars that year. i dont need to check. show some proof.
Look it up on Wikipedia.

[donald_trump]

Chalmers didn't even win a title in the NBA. :roll: We're not talking about 1 title from Pippen. We're talking about 6.

so titles are what makes players better is what you said.
chalmers was the best player coming out of the draft. why wasnt he chosen first above rose? how come beasley went ahead of him too? and kevin love? and how about the other 31 players along with the 3 i mentioned?

[kaiiu]

Until LeBron wins a title, all he is, is simply a better version of Dominique Wilkins. There's no reason a player of his calibur can't win at least 1 ring.
Dominique was the better scorer of the 2.

[donald_trump]

Look it up on Wikipedia.

dont have to. lebron had 0 all stars on his team. unless you can prove otherwise.

[kaiiu]

dont have to. lebron had 0 all stars on his team. unless you can prove otherwise.
Well played:cheers:

He doesnt need all stars now anyway since he is the supporting all star:oldlol:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

Pippens game was never a volume scorer, but he's very versaille and a defensive specialist.

Trevor Ariza meets Devin Ebanks if Pippen was playing in this era

[donald_trump]

Well played:cheers:

He doesnt need all stars now anyway since he is the supporting all star:oldlol:

how does a supporting star get more mvp votes than the lead star then?

[catch24]

i dont think youve seen him post enough to know the ever growing range of his stupidity. he means as players pippen is better. he thinks scottie pippen can play basketball better than lebron.

Inside scoring: LeBron
Midrange: LeBron
3PT shooting: LeBron
FT shooting: LeBron
Playmaking: LeBron
Rebounding: Wash
playing the passing lanes: Pippen
blocking shots: LeBron
Man to man/help defense: Pippen

IF he was talking about players, well, he'd be wrong. It's not even close really.

[kaiiu]

how does a supporting star get more mvp votes than the lead star then?
hype

[D.J.]

Dominique was the better scorer of the 2.


In terms of versatility, yes. Not efficiency.

[kaiiu]

In terms of versatility, yes. Not efficiency.
thats what I mean. If I need a tough bucket, give me Nique

[donald_trump]

hype

go get some sun kid. you post to much on here. its not healthy.

i think itd be best for me to leave permanently as well before i catch stupid from reading too much of d.j.'s posts.

[kaiiu]

go get some sun kid. you post to much on here. its not healthy.

i think itd be best for me to leave permanently as well before i catch stupid from reading too much of d.j.'s posts.
Its cool im off ISH in a month. Enjoy me while u can:cheers:

[D.J.]

i dont think youve seen him post enough to know the ever growing range of his stupidity. he means as players pippen is better. he thinks scottie pippen can play basketball better than lebron.


Show me where I said that. These are my posts relevant to these two:



He put up 21/8/7 in '92. In a more perimeter friendly era, no more handchecking, and the emphasis on zone defense, there's no reason to think he couldn't push a triple-double.


For those that are debating Pippen and LeBron, ask yourself this:


Are you willing to part with 30/7/7 and in return, get 21/7/7 with GOAT-like perimeter defense and equally good(if not better) ball handling? If you answer yes, then Pippen is above LeBron.


Notice I said nothing about skills.



Pippen did average 7 APG, idiot. He put up 21/7/7 in '92. His assists went back down when Jordan left and he had to shoot and attack the hoop more.

The only full season without MJ, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and that was with Pete Myers replacing MJ. LeBron is not a great defensive player. He is a good help defender and an average-slightly above on-ball defender. He's far from great in that aspect.

When LeBron wins titles, then he can be debated over Pippen. Pippen is 3rd at the SF position, but after Bird and Dr. J.


Stats aside, LeBron won't surpass Pippen without a title.



Pippen put up 21/7/7 with Jordan as his teammate and going up against guys such as Stockton, Dumars, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Olajuwon, Richmond, Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Mutombo, and company. The competition from the 90s >>> competition today.



Players handcheck and elbow just as much today = :roll: Go tell that to Laimbeer, Rodman, Malone, Mourning, Mutombo, and Shaq.



LeBron couldn't even win a title with Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. You think he would win one with Pete Myers, B.J. Armstrong, Horace Grant, and 37 year old Bill Cartwright?



Malone dominated for nearly 20 years, has the same number of MVPs, and was a fierce post defender. Barkley is one of the most versatile players ever, won an MVP(should have 2), and also dominated for well over 10 years. He was one of the most clutch players ever. Both players would have at least 1 ring if it weren't for a man named Michael Jordan.


Notice I said NOTHING about skills. Let's see you refute this, Donnie.

[donald_trump]

Its cool im off ISH in a month. Enjoy me while u can:cheers:

learn to get the hate out your heart. lifes too short for bias and grudges.

[kaiiu]

learn to get the hate out your heart. lifes too short for bias and grudges.
:oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Hmmm

LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudemire

Hmm...NOPE! Not even TOP 5, let alone #1

TRY. AGAIN. I could put many more above him too, but I won't futher embarass you.

[donald_trump]

Are you willing to part with 30/7/7 and in return, get 21/7/7 with GOAT-like perimeter defense and equally good(if not better) ball handling? If you answer yes, then Pippen is above LeBron

there. you said hes a better basketball player.

im done here. please dont talk to the youth about basketball. you'll only cause them to have a tragic understanding of basketball.

[D.J.]

there. you said hes a better basketball player.

im done here. please dont talk to the youth about basketball. you'll only cause them to have a tragic understanding of basketball.


You're a f*cking moron. No where did I say ANYTHING about being a better player. All-time ranking don't always involve skills. Go back to school and learn to read.

[bond10]

You're all retarded. Pippen wasn't even top 5 in ANY year. He was really innefficient...shot at like 40% or something.


Lebron >>> Pippen

And you can't say "oh, X would be better than Y because of the different era" because X WOULD play more like Y if he DID play in this era.

[D.J.]

He was really innefficient...shot at like 40% or something.


46.3%
47.6%
48.9%
52.0%
50.6%
47.3%
49.1%
48.0%
46.3%
47.4%


^^^ Rookie season straight through '97.

[bond10]

46.3%
47.6%
48.9%
52.0%
50.6%
47.3%
49.1%
48.0%
46.3%
47.4%


^^^ Rookie season straight through '97.

O, then I got that wrong haha. Thanks for clearing it up. Lebron's still better though. You can argue Pippen had to play with Jordan, but Lebron is playing with Wade (mini Jordan) and he's still putting up great numbers.

[97 bulls]

Inside scoring: LeBron
Midrange: LeBron
3PT shooting: LeBron
FT shooting: LeBron
Playmaking: LeBron
Rebounding: Wash
playing the passing lanes: Pippen
blocking shots: LeBron
Man to man/help defense: Pippen

IF he was talking about players, well, he'd be wrong. It's not even close really.
Pippens post game is better than james. And I don't see how james playmaking is better. He dominates the ball more than pippen did. And they both are even shot blockers.
Drive to the basket: james
Post game: pippen
mid range: wash
3pt shooting:wash
ft shooting: james
Overall scoring: james
playmaking: wash
Rebounding:wash
man defense: wash
help defense: pippen
trap defense: pippen
full court defense: pippen
overall defense: pippen
basketball IQ: pippen
athleticism: james
clutch offense: james
clutch defense: pippen

[97 bulls]

O, then I got that wrong haha. Thanks for clearing it up.
At least your man enough to admit a mistake. This forum would be much better if more people were able to do this.

[D.J.]

O, then I got that wrong haha. Thanks for clearing it up. Lebron's still better though. You can argue Pippen had to play with Jordan, but Lebron is playing with Wade (mini Jordan) and he's still putting up great numbers.


No one ever doubted LeBron's game. But all-time rankings aren't always based on skills. That's what people need to understand. I've been watching the NBA for 25 years. I'm tired of trolls and 16 year olds that think they know more than someone that's been watching the game for longer than they've been walking this earth.

[97 bulls]

No one ever doubted LeBron's game. But all-time rankings aren't always based on skills. That's what people need to understand. I've been watching the NBA for 25 years. I'm tired of trolls and 16 year olds that think they know more than someone that's been watching the game for longer than they've been walking this earth.
This is true. I know we like to rank guys based on accomplishments and stuff. But the fact is alot of the way these awards are won is based on situations. The fact is that as far as talent goes, james is not that much better than pippen. James is just in a different situation. One that's allowed him to maximize his stats but at the expense of championships. Pippen sacrificed his full potential at the expense of winning. And to be honest, this is what you guys fail to acknowledge.

[Fatal9]

I'm a Pippen fan and all but I just can't get behind this. LeBron and Wade are so clearly better than him that you have to be the ultimate homer to think otherwise.

And no, he isn't averaging 25 ppg. If you think he would, then you don't understand his game. Amazing all around skills and versatility but not a 25 ppg scorer in any era other than say if he played in the 80s western conference or something (transition scoring was his deadliest scoring skill imo). He just didn't have the consistency on his jumper to average that many, and as athletic as Pippen was, his first step was somewhat of a weakness imo and he wasn't as good at breaking down defenses in the half court to score like say a Grant Hill. Nothing in watching him play hundreds of games has EVER suggested he could do that, so chill on these wild scoring claims.

In the league today, he'd be a top 7 player though imo.

[RJChPD]

I'm a Pippen fan and all but I just can't get behind this. LeBron and Wade are so clearly better than him that you have to be the ultimate homer to think otherwise.

And no, he isn't averaging 25 ppg. If you think he would, then you don't understand his game. Amazing all around skills and versatility but not a 25 ppg scorer in any era other than say if he played in the 80s western conference or something (transition scoring was his deadliest scoring skill imo). He just didn't have the consistency on his jumper to average that many, and as athletic as Pippen was, his first step was somewhat of a weakness imo and he wasn't as good at breaking down defenses in the half court to score like say a Grant Hill. Nothing in watching him play hundreds of games has EVER suggested he could do that, so chill on these wild scoring claims.

In the league today, he'd be a top 7 player though imo.
:applause:

[D.J.]

I'm a Pippen fan and all but I just can't get behind this. LeBron and Wade are so clearly better than him that you have to be the ultimate homer to think otherwise.

And no, he isn't averaging 25 ppg. If you think he would, then you don't understand his game. Amazing all around skills and versatility but not a 25 ppg scorer in any era other than say if he played in the 80s western conference or something (transition scoring was his deadliest scoring skill imo). He just didn't have the consistency on his jumper to average that many, and as athletic as Pippen was, his first step was somewhat of a weakness imo and he wasn't as good at breaking down defenses in the half court to score like say a Grant Hill. Nothing in watching him play hundreds of games has EVER suggested he could do that, so chill on these wild scoring claims.

In the league today, he'd be a top 7 player though imo.


It's not that far fetched. One extra trip to the foul line and an extra FG attempt or two, and that's another 4 points easily. The rules favor perimeter players these days. Scottie controls the ball for just a bit more and it's not far fetched for him to average 25 a night.

As for skills, yes LeBron and Wade are more dominant than Scottie. Scottie was by far more versatile and in rankings, he's still above both for now.

[catch24]

Pippens post game is better than james. And I don't see how james playmaking is better. He dominates the ball more than pippen did. And they both are even shot blockers.
Drive to the basket: james
Post game: pippen
mid range: wash
3pt shooting:wash
ft shooting: james
Overall scoring: james
playmaking: wash
Rebounding:wash
man defense: wash
help defense: pippen
trap defense: pippen
full court defense: pippen
overall defense: pippen
basketball IQ: pippen
athleticism: james
clutch offense: james
clutch defense: pippen

Neither of those are a wash. There's no way Pippen shot 45% from midrange (like LeBron has this season--above Kobe, Pierce, Melo and Ray Allen). LeBron has been a better 3PT shooter (both now and for the rest of his career). The only time Pippen EVER shot over 44% from 3 was when the line was shortened. Playmaking? LeBron's vision isn't exactly like Magic's but in the same realm; don't think I need to mention his assist numbers. I've never seen a player, one that comes to mind at least, that's done more with less like LeBron has.

[catch24]

I'm a Pippen fan and all but I just can't get behind this. LeBron and Wade are so clearly better than him that you have to be the ultimate homer to think otherwise.

And no, he isn't averaging 25 ppg. If you think he would, then you don't understand his game. Amazing all around skills and versatility but not a 25 ppg scorer in any era other than say if he played in the 80s western conference or something (transition scoring was his deadliest scoring skill imo). He just didn't have the consistency on his jumper to average that many, and as athletic as Pippen was, his first step was somewhat of a weakness imo and he wasn't as good at breaking down defenses in the half court to score like say a Grant Hill. Nothing in watching him play hundreds of games has EVER suggested he could do that, so chill on these wild scoring claims.

In the league today, he'd be a top 7 player though imo.

Fatal, please don't leave the boards :oldlol:

Great post... couldn't have said it better myself.

[DMAVS41]

Pippens post game is better than james. And I don't see how james playmaking is better. He dominates the ball more than pippen did. And they both are even shot blockers.
Drive to the basket: james
Post game: pippen
mid range: wash
3pt shooting:wash
ft shooting: james
Overall scoring: james
playmaking: wash
Rebounding:wash
man defense: wash
help defense: pippen
trap defense: pippen
full court defense: pippen
overall defense: pippen
basketball IQ: pippen
athleticism: james
clutch offense: james
clutch defense: pippen

You can't break players down like this. You lose sight of the bigger picture.

This is your problem man. You keep doing this and its leading to horrible conclusions.

Like you believing:

Pippen was better than Magic
Pippen was better than Kobe
Pippen was better than Lebron


I'm sorry. Its just blatantly obvious that Pippen is not in their league as players. Your breakdowns are giving you inaccurate conclusions because you can't cut a player up like that.

I don't mean to be rude, but you are really losing sight of the big picture here.

[Fatal9]

It's not that far fetched. One extra trip to the foul line and an extra FG attempt or two, and that's another 4 points easily. The rules favor perimeter players these days. Scottie controls the ball for just a bit more and it's not far fetched for him to average 25 a night.

As for skills, yes LeBron and Wade are more dominant than Scottie. Scottie was by far more versatile and in rankings, he's still above both for now.
Sorry, there isn't that much of a difference between the defense in the early 90s and right now (I'd give the edge to right now actually, better team defense on average). The only time I will accept that defense was better is the later 90s and early 00s. This is not just me saying this, everything from watching the games, to stats indicates this to me. Turning a 19-22 ppg player (whose scoring skillset had CLEAR flaws that kept him from being elite in that category) from early 90s into a 25 ppg player now is ridiculous. And somehow he is retaining his career high assist/rebound averages at the same time?

Rankings are nice and all but I go a lot by how good the players were and LeBron already is in my top 20. Think about guys who are ranked above him, like say Oscar. LeBron has not only achieved as much individually but led his teams to way more success. Baylor? Again, same thing. And on and on for other players. A lot of guys who people normally consider top 20 above LeBron simply weren't as good as him and even from an accomplishments standpoint, LeBron's not only been better, he's led his teams to just as much if not more success. If you begin ranking players who are clearly NOT AS GOOD as another, then what's the point of rankings anyways? It's not like LeBron's a "new guy" anymore either, he's been this 30/7/7 shit while leading teams to 50+ wins since '06 now.

[catch24]

Pipp actually shot 44% from 3 in '01. My mistake.

LeBron is still better though (given the volume).

[97 bulls]

Fatal, please don't leave the boards :oldlol:

Great post... couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah let that clown stay on these boards and ill expose him just like I did you. Fatal 9 is a jordan hater. He props pippen to tear down jordans accomplishments. There is no consistancy in his words. Just like you. Both hypocrites. I've never seen hiim in a thread defending pippen unless the comparison is jordan. Never

Thus his view on this subject has no more weight than yours.

[catch24]

Yeah let that clown stay on these boards and ill expose him just like I did you. Fatal 9 is a jordan hater. He props pippen to tear down jordans accomplishments. There is no consistancy in his words. Just like you. Both hypocrites. I've never seen hiim in a thread defending pippen unless the comparison is jordan. Never

Thus his view on this subject has no more weight than yours.

Calm down, kid. The only thing you 'expose' is your love for Pippen; lets be honest.

[Fatal9]

Yeah let that clown stay on these boards and ill expose him just like I did you. Fatal 9 is a jordan hater. He props pippen to tear down jordans accomplishments. There is no consistancy in his words. Just like you. Both hypocrites. I've never seen hiim in a thread defending pippen unless the comparison is jordan. Never

Thus his view on this subject has no more weight than yours.
Cool story but at a certain point you need to be objective, especially when it's so clear that one guy is not on the level of the other. And if I'm "tearing down Jordan" (who I've always maintained is the GOAT or 2nd), then why do I have a channel highlighting Pippen's great playoff performances (http://www.youtube.com/user/PippenPlayoffs) (and *gasp* I included a lot of MJ highlights at the same time...not doing a very good job of tearing him down now am I). I do get in a lot of arguments with Jordan fans because they're the exact opposite of you, underrate the hell out of him and don't appreciate what he brought to the table. Regardless of what you think, Pippen was my first favorite player in the league.

[97 bulls]

It's not that far fetched. One extra trip to the foul line and an extra FG attempt or two, and that's another 4 points easily. The rules favor perimeter players these days. Scottie controls the ball for just a bit more and it's not far fetched for him to average 25 a night.

As for skills, yes LeBron and Wade are more dominant than Scottie. Scottie was by far more versatile and in rankings, he's still above both for now.
This is all were trying to say. Its like these guys have never heard of the term context.

[DMAVS41]

Sorry, there isn't that much of a difference between the defense in the early 90s and right now (I'd give the edge to right now actually, better team defense on average). The only time I will accept that defense was better is the later 90s and early 00s. This is not just me saying this, everything from watching the games, to stats indicates this to me. Turning a 19-22 ppg player (whose scoring skillset had CLEAR flaws that kept him from being elite in that category) from early 90s into a 25 ppg player now is ridiculous. And somehow he is retaining his career high assist/rebound averages at the same time?

Rankings are nice and all but I go a lot by how good the players were and LeBron already is in my top 20. Think about guys who are ranked above him, like say Oscar. LeBron has not only achieved as much individually but led his teams to way more success. Baylor? Again, same thing. And on and on for other players. A lot of guys who people normally consider top 20 above LeBron simply weren't as good as him and even from an accomplishments standpoint, LeBron's not only been better, he's led his teams to just as much if not more success. If you begin ranking players who are clearly NOT AS GOOD as another, then what's the point of rankings anyways? It's not like LeBron's a "new guy" anymore either, he's been this 30/7/7 shit while leading teams to 50+ wins since '06 now.


I also have Lebron in my top 20 already. If he were to win a title this year and keep up his high level of play, he'd move way up.

I mean. Just look at the guys in the top 20 on most lists.

Barkley
Karl Malone
KG
Dr. J
Baylor


I'd put Lebron over every single one of those guys right now probably.....definitely if he wins a title.

Then you get into guys that are tougher. Although I do agree that Lebron should be ranked right with Oscar already.

West?
Hondo?
Moses?
Kobe?

I saw Kobe and Moses play and there is no doubt Lebron certainly belongs on their level as a player even now. I didn't get to see West or Hondo play so I can't really say, but all the research I've done and books I've read lead me to believe that Lebron was/is as good or better than both of them.

The only think holding Lebron back right now is proving he can win a title. Once he does that, he's got everything and it will just be about how many he wins and how long he dominates......

People often forget the following:

Jordan did not win a title until his 7th year in the league
Shaq did not win a title until his 8th year in the league
Hakeem did not win a title until his 10th year in the league
West did not win a title until his 12th year in the league
Moses did not win a title until his 9th year in the league



LEBRON IS PLAYING HIS 8TH YEAR RIGHT NOW

[97 bulls]

Cool story but at a certain point you need to be objective, especially when it's so clear that one guy is not on the level of the other. And if I'm "tearing down Jordan" (who I've always maintained is the GOAT or 2nd), then why do I have a channel highlighting Pippen's great playoff performances (http://www.youtube.com/user/PippenPlayoffs) (and *gasp* I included a lot of MJ highlights at the same time...not doing a very good job of tearing him down now am I). I do get in a lot of arguments with Jordan fans because they're the exact opposite of you, underrate the hell out of him and don't appreciate what he brought to the table. Regardless of what you think, Pippen was my first favorite player in the league.
Nice channel. But I've seen you in action. You say the exact same thing as everybody else. Youtube be damned.

But since you want to get into it let's go. Why couldn't pippen in this era be able to add 3 pts to his avg. When everybody acknowledges caters to a perimeter player. If he gets fouled on avg an xtra 2 times a game, that 4 fts he makes 2 and that's gonna give him an xtra 2 ppg. And that's if he shoots 50%. When he does drive to the basket, who's he meeting up with? Centers that are nowhere near what he was facing in his day. Let's just say that gives him another bucket. That's 4 pts right there. Why is that so far out of the realm of possibility?

Even old school basketball admits that pippen would probably manage to get a few 24 ppg seasons in this league today. And this is with him playing inside the triangle and sharing the ball with jordan. Take him out of that offense and give him the ball at the top of the key and let him drive left or right (even your videos show that he was capable) and he couldn't get another few basket? And he be running in an offense that is more wide open. All wade has ever done is run picks. Why is this so hard to phantom?

[97 bulls]

I also have Lebron in my top 20 already. If he were to win a title this year and keep up his high level of play, he'd move way up.

I mean. Just look at the guys in the top 20 on most lists.

Barkley
Karl Malone
KG
Dr. J
Baylor


I'd put Lebron over every single one of those guys right now probably.....definitely if he wins a title.

Then you get into guys that are tougher. Although I do agree that Lebron should be ranked right with Oscar already.

West?
Hondo?
Moses?
Kobe?

I saw Kobe and Moses play and there is no doubt Lebron certainly belongs on their level as a player even now. I didn't get to see West or Hondo play so I can't really say, but all the research I've done and books I've read lead me to believe that Lebron was/is as good or better than both of them.

The only think holding Lebron back right now is proving he can win a title. Once he does that, he's got everything and it will just be about how many he wins and how long he dominates......

People often forget the following:

Jordan did not win a title until his 7th year in the league
Shaq did not win a title until his 8th year in the league
Hakeem did not win a title until his 10th year in the league
West did not win a title until his 12th year in the league
Moses did not win a title until his 9th year in the league



LEBRON IS PLAYING HIS 8TH YEAR RIGHT NOW
I actually agree james is in the 20s right now. And he has the chance to surpass jordan as the goat in my book. And I agree with fatal that defenses were not better in the 90s especially the early 90s. But scoring was at it lowest in the late 90s. And even still pippens production maintained. So is it far fetched that pippen gets an xtra few points in an era catered to his strengths?

[whoartthou]

Nice channel. But I've seen you in action. You say the exact same thing as everybody else. Youtube be damned.

But since you want to get into it let's go. Why couldn't pippen in this era be able to add 3 pts to his avg. When everybody acknowledges caters to a perimeter player. If he gets fouled on avg an xtra 2 times a game, that 4 fts he makes 2 and that's gonna give him an xtra 2 ppg. And that's if he shoots 50%. When he does drive to the basket, who's he meeting up with? Centers that are nowhere near what he was facing in his day. Let's just say that gives him another bucket. That's 4 pts right there. Why is that so far out of the realm of possibility?

Even old school basketball admits that pippen would probably manage to get a few 24 ppg seasons in this league today. And this is with him playing inside the triangle and sharing the ball with jordan. Take him out of that offense and give him the ball at the top of the key and let him drive left or right (even your videos show that he was capable) and he couldn't get another few basket? And he be running in an offense that is more wide open. All wade has ever done is run picks. Why is this so hard to fathom?

good points, but its fathom homie

[DMAVS41]

I actually agree james is in the 20s right now. And he has the chance to surpass jordan as the goat in my book. And I agree with fatal that defenses were not better in the 90s especially the early 90s. But scoring was at it lowest in the late 90s. And even still pippens production maintained. So is it far fetched that pippen gets an xtra few points in an era catered to his strengths?

Of course its not far fetched. But does that make Pippen a better player?

I mean. Does Pippen become just a much better player if he averaged 19 ppg for his career rather than 16 ppg?

I mean, everyone in this thread is already over looking Pippen's average career numbers and ranks him around 25 to 30 all time.

I we just went off stats, Pippen is nowhere near top 30 all time.

16 points 6 boards 5 assists for his career.

We all know Pippen was much better than his career numbers. We all know Pippen was much better than even his peak numbers.

He's just not in the Lebron/Wade/Kobe league as a player. And he's definitely not in the Magic league either.

There is no way in hell somebody would choose to start a franchise with Pippen over Malone or Barkley or Robinson either.

Those guys were just in a different class as players. Its not a knock on Pippen. I feel the same way about Stockton.

[Status Quo]

I could see the first four, but Durant? All Durant does is score. Pippen annihilates him in every other aspect of the game. Kevin Durant is probably the most overrated player in the league right now. He's a more efficient Carmelo Anthony, but neither do jack shit besides score.

Durant is one of the best shot blockers for his position and he does play D , so ... :no:

[97 bulls]

Of course its not far fetched. But does that make Pippen a better player?

I mean. Does Pippen become just a much better player if he averaged 19 ppg for his career rather than 16 ppg?

I mean, everyone in this thread is already over looking Pippen's average career numbers and ranks him around 25 to 30 all time.

I we just went off stats, Pippen is nowhere near top 30 all time.

16 points 6 boards 5 assists for his career.

We all know Pippen was much better than his career numbers. We all know Pippen was much better than even his peak numbers.

He's just not in the Lebron/Wade/Kobe league as a player. And he's definitely not in the Magic league either.

There is no way in hell somebody would choose to start a franchise with Pippen over Malone or Barkley or Robinson either.

Those guys were just in a different class as players. Its not a knock on Pippen. I feel the same way about Stockton.
Actually dirk41, there was a survey done in 95 I believe in which gms were asked who would they choose to start a franchis ewith? Most of them said they would choose pippen. I think darealist showed that in another thread in which pippen was being degraded. And malone, barkley, and robinson were in their primes at this time.

[DMAVS41]

Actually dirk41, there was a survey done in 95 I believe in which gms were asked who would they choose to start a franchis ewith? Most of them said they would choose pippen. I think darealist showed that in another thread in which pippen was being degraded. And malone, barkley, and robinson were in their primes at this time.

I stand corrected if thats true.

I will say I think that is absurd, but I stand corrected.

[97 bulls]

good points, but its fathom homie
Thanx

[DMAVS41]

Actually dirk41, there was a survey done in 95 I believe in which gms were asked who would they choose to start a franchis ewith? Most of them said they would choose pippen. I think darealist showed that in another thread in which pippen was being degraded. And malone, barkley, and robinson were in their primes at this time.

Nobody is degrading Pippen. You are just basically trying to make a case for Pippen being a top 5 player of all time.

You say he's better than both Kobe and Magic.

You aren't being reasonable so that leads you to think people are degrading Pippen.

[catch24]

Nobody is degrading Pippen. You are just basically trying to make a case for Pippen being a top 5 player of all time.

You say he's better than both Kobe and Magic.

You aren't being reasonable so that leads you to think people are degrading Pippen.

Did he really say that? If so I might just have to use my ignore list for the first time :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Nobody is degrading Pippen. You are just basically trying to make a case for Pippen being a top 5 player of all time.

You say he's better than both Kobe and Magic.

You aren't being reasonable so that leads you to think people are degrading Pippen.
I honestly never said he's better than magic or kobe. Id pick him over the two cuz I think he's easier to build a team around. I've seen pippen lead trash to overachieveing. Kobe in a similar situation failed miserably. So has wade. And we will never know how magic would fair if he had a bad team. That's just the way I feel. I don't expect the same outcome from different players cuz they all took different roads. You unfortunately do.

[DMAVS41]

Did he really say that? If so I might just have to use my ignore list for the first time :oldlol:

Yes. He said he'd take Pippen over both of them.

Which is why this act of his about people degrading Pippen gets old. Nobody is degrading Pippen. Pippen is in the top 30 or so all time. Thats not degrading him at all.

He's blatantly over-rating the crap out of Pippen and basically taking the stance that Pippen is top 5 or so all time.
:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

I honestly never said he's better than magic or kobe. Id pick him over the two cuz I think he's easier to build a team around. I've seen pippen lead trash to overachieveing. Kobe in a similar situation failed miserably. So has wade. And we will never know how magic would fair if he had a bad team. That's just the way I feel. I don't expect the same outcome from different players cuz they all took different roads. You unfortunately do.

That is you saying he's better. If you would pick Pippen over Magic to start a a team it means you think Pippen is a better player.
:confusedshrug:

[catch24]

I honestly never said he's better than magic or kobe. Id pick him over the two cuz I think he's easier to build a team around. I've seen pippen lead trash to overachieveing. Kobe in a similar situation failed miserably. So has wade. And we will never know how magic would fair if he had a bad team. That's just the way I feel. I don't expect the same outcome from different players cuz they all took different roads. You unfortunately do.

:roll:

That's pretty much saying he's better genius.

[97 bulls]

That is you saying he's better. If you would pick Pippen over Magic to start a a team it means you think Pippen is a better player.
:confusedshrug:
Like I said, magic has never ever been on a bad basketball team never. He's even lost to teams he had no business loosing to. He was a great player on a great team. Is this true or not?

[DMAVS41]

Like I said, magic has never ever been on a bad basketball team never. He's even lost to teams he had no business loosing to. He was a great player on a great team. Is this true or not?

Yes. Of course.

I just don't want to argue semantics with you.

You think Pippen was a better basketball player than Magic. Its obvious. Just come out and say it.

Again. I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong. Its just that we are way too far apart to debate this because of how we each feel.

I think the notion of saying Pippen was even in the same league as Magic as a player is absurd. You are saying Pippen was better.

We are just too far apart. Doesn't make either of us wrong or right, just means there is absolutely no common ground to debate off of.

[whoartthou]

Of course its not far fetched. But does that make Pippen a better player?

I mean. Does Pippen become just a much better player if he averaged 19 ppg for his career rather than 16 ppg?

I mean, everyone in this thread is already over looking Pippen's average career numbers and ranks him around 25 to 30 all time.

I we just went off stats, Pippen is nowhere near top 30 all time.

16 points 6 boards 5 assists for his career.

We all know Pippen was much better than his career numbers. We all know Pippen was much better than even his peak numbers.

He's just not in the Lebron/Wade/Kobe league as a player. And he's definitely not in the Magic league either.

There is no way in hell somebody would choose to start a franchise with Pippen over Malone or Barkley or Robinson either.

Those guys were just in a different class as players. Its not a knock on Pippen. I feel the same way about Stockton.

seriously, this board either overrates the shit out of pippen, or underrates him too much.

16/6/5... yet he is supposed to be on the level of a wade/bron/kobe/barkley/malone??

Yes he played much better than his stats suggests... but lets not forget he had michael fking jordan on his team as well

[97 bulls]

:roll:

That's pretty much saying he's better genius.
No its not. Look remember back when jordan was drafted? Portland was torn between the more talented player in jordan or sam bowie. They chose bowie cuz they had drexler. Thye picked a need.

How bout when they picked oden over durant? They again went with a need.

Granted those centers didn't pan out but only cuz of injuries. Not cuz they weren't good enough

I think pippen would fill more needs than johnson. And magic johnson is terrible on the defensive side of the ball. I value defense alot more than you guys do.

[DMAVS41]

No its not. Look remember back when jordan was drafted? Portland was torn between the more talented player in jordan or sam bowie. They chose bowie cuz they had drexler. Thye picked a need.

How bout when they picked oden over durant? They again went with a need.

Granted those centers didn't pan out but only cuz of injuries. Not cuz they weren't good enough

I think pippen would fill more needs than johnson. And magic johnson is terrible on the defensive side of the ball. I value defense alot more than you guys do.

This isn't about need. There is no team. You said you'd take Pippen to start a franchise over Magic.

You also go on and on about Magic being a terrible defender.

Its blatantly obvious that you think Pippen was better.:confusedshrug:

[catch24]

No its not. Look remember back when jordan was drafted? Portland was torn between the more talented player in jordan or sam bowie. They chose bowie cuz they had drexler. Thye picked a need.

How bout when they picked oden over durant? They again went with a need.

Granted those centers didn't pan out but only cuz of injuries. Not cuz they weren't good enough

I think pippen would fill more needs than johnson. And magic johnson is terrible on the defensive side of the ball. I value defense alot more than you guys do.

Except there's no specific blueprint of your constructed team. You said you'd take Pippen > Magic and Kobe. You're not slick; stop trying to turn the tables around switching up your original argument/posts.

[catch24]

This isn't about need. There is no team. You said you'd take Pippen to start a franchise over Magic.

You also go on and on about Magic being a terrible defender.

Its blatantly obvious that you think Pippen was better.:confusedshrug:

Who does this kid think he's trying to fool? You're right - there is no common ground so at this point there really isn't a reason to debate this. He mine as well just admit it and move on...

[97 bulls]

seriously, this board either overrates the shit out of pippen, or underrates him too much.

16/6/5... yet he is supposed to be on the level of a wade/bron/kobe/barkley/malone??

Yes he played much better than his stats suggests... but lets not forget he had michael fking jordan on his team as well
16 6 5 is the result of him playing 18 years. He honestly played too long and it affected his overall numbers. And he played sparringly in his 1st 2 years. In his prime he was a 20 8, 7 player. And even still, he's an alltime great for his defense and versiitility. Not his scoring alone.

The fact is all these guys admit exactly what you said. His talent was much better than what his stats suggest. They've all admitted it. The problem them admitting that also brings the fact that statistically his stats are similar to a larry bird. And they can't accept that. As if its blasphemy or something.

[DMAVS41]

Who does this kid think he's trying to fool? You're right - there is no common ground so at this point there really isn't a reason to debate this. He mine as well just admit it and move on...

Its like saying KG was a better player than Kareem.

The exact same thing.

[97 bulls]

This isn't about need. There is no team. You said you'd take Pippen to start a franchise over Magic.

You also go on and on about Magic being a terrible defender.

Its blatantly obvious that you think Pippen was better.:confusedshrug:
In the other thread, I said I like to rank as far as talent. And to me pippen is as talented as anybody not named jordan, chamberlain or james. But I rank magic higher cuz of what he accomplised. And he is talented. Magic that is.

[GOBB]

Pipp is my favorite player of all time and no way a prime Pippen would be better than Lebron or Wade today. But its a slap in prime Pippen face to have people even thinking of putting Durant over him.

[97 bulls]

Except there's no specific blueprint of your constructed team. You said you'd take Pippen > Magic and Kobe. You're not slick; stop trying to turn the tables around switching up your original argument/posts.
Dude what's so hard to comprehend? He asked me who id pick to start a franchise? Not who was better. Not who's more accomplished. Not a blueprint. I know what pippen would give me if i had a bad team. He can fill alot of voids.

There's alot of pgs that I feel are more talented than centers but id be hardpressed to choose them over a capable center.

Another example. Id rather have a woman that's has a decent face, and ample tits, and ass over a woman that I would acknowledge is more beautiful.

[Soundwave]

I wouldn't take Pippen over Magic to start a franchise because I don't think Scottie Pippen is THE Scottie Pippen without Michael Jordan.

Playing against him in practise, learning from him, trial by fire, etc. I think really helped take Scottie from basically a no-name prospect to a much better player.

[GOBB]

I wouldn't take Pippen over Magic to start a franchise because I don't think Scottie Pippen is THE Scottie Pippen without Michael Jordan.

Playing against him in practise, learning from him, trial by fire, etc. I think really helped take Scottie from basically a no-name prospect to a much better player.

He was drafted 5th overall. How was he a no name prospect?

[97 bulls]

I wouldn't take Pippen over Magic to start a franchise because I don't think Scottie Pippen is THE Scottie Pippen without Michael Jordan.

Playing against him in practise, learning from him, trial by fire, etc. I think really helped take Scottie from basically a no-name prospect to a much better player.
This may be true. But you could attribute alot of players greatness to someboy else, be it a coach, player, upbringing.

[ConanRulesNBC]

How about this...

Prime Shaq and prime Pippen on the Lakers from 2000-2002 or prime Shaq and prime Kobe? Do Shaq and Pippen win 3 rings... even more?

[97 bulls]

He was drafted 5th overall. How was he a no name prospect?
Let me ask you this gobb. Dwayne wade has been leading the heat for 5 years now. He's only got out the first round once since 06. Forget stats. Just impact. What has wade done?

[GOBB]

Only reason I say prime shaq/pippen win more rings is solely based on the fact Pippen wouldnt have issues with Shaq. I think the two could coexist/tolerate each other longer. I think the better duo is prime Shaq/Kobe. But again prime Shaq/Pippen have more potential to win rings than Shaq/Kobe duo.

[GOBB]

Let me ask you this gobb. Dwayne wade has been leading the heat for 5 years now. He's only got out the first round once since 06. Forget stats. Just impact. What has wade done?

Wade has played on weak teams, thats what he did.

[Soundwave]

He was drafted 5th overall. How was he a no name prospect?

And most people saw that as a huuuuuge stretch by the Bulls.

Even Horace Grant stated he went "who?" when they drafted Pippen.

Looking at Krause's draft history before and since then, the '87 draft might've been a bit of luck.

[brownmamba00]

How about this...

Prime Shaq and prime Pippen on the Lakers from 2000-2002 or prime Shaq and prime Kobe? Do Shaq and Pippen win 3 rings... even more?
They don't win in '01. I dont see Pippen dropping 45/10 in game 1, 36/9/8 in game 3 and taking over game 2 late in the Spurs series. '01 was a two mans team.

However I can see them winning it in '02 and '04.

2 rings tops.

[97 bulls]

How about this...

Prime Shaq and prime Pippen on the Lakers from 2000-2002 or prime Shaq and prime Kobe? Do Shaq and Pippen win 3 rings... even more?
We already know the result of shaq/kobe. Prime kobe and shaq couldn't stand each other. And cost their team championsips. Truth is, they could've won more.

Replace kobe with pippen. And you sacrifice bryants offense for pippens defense and superior team play. So on the nights kobe took over games vs san antonio offensively, pippen might not do that, but he sure as hell wouldn't let tony parker or ginobli do what they did on offense either. And the offense wuld run smoother. So its a give and receive type thing.

[Soundwave]

How about this...

Prime Shaq and prime Pippen on the Lakers from 2000-2002 or prime Shaq and prime Kobe? Do Shaq and Pippen win 3 rings... even more?

They'd lose to Sacramento in 2002 IMO. But maybe they'd beat San Antonio in 2003, so that might be a wash.

[GOBB]

And most people saw that as a huuuuuge stretch by the Bulls.

Even Horace Grant stated he went "who?" when they drafted Pippen.

Looking at Krause's draft history before and since then, the '87 draft might've been a bit of luck.

Bulls didnt even draft him tho. I dont think he was a no name prospect. But I kinda understand what you're trying to say.

[Soundwave]

Bulls didnt even draft him tho. I dont think he was a no name prospect. But I kinda understand what you're trying to say.

I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure Seattle made the selection on behalf of Chicago (that's who Krause told them to pick).

[97 bulls]

Wade has played on weak teams, thats what he did.
Why does wade get the pass? Hes also been in a conference thats been terrible if not worse. I defy you to show me a heat team that wades been on that was as bad as 95 when pippen had the bulls on pace to win 44 games. In a better conference no less. Even go compare kobes teams. Sub 500 recordss with more talent.

Im sick of people getting credit for winning with talented teams. Let's be fair. Though im not directiing this at you gobb. I just wanna put it in the readers minds

[97 bulls]

They don't win in '01. I dont see Pippen dropping 45/10 in game 1, 36/9/8 in game 3 and taking over game 2 late in the Spurs series. '01 was a two mans team.

However I can see them winning it in '02 and '04.

2 rings tops.
Maybe he drops 27, 9, 10 and plays center like defense. Or puts up 30, 7, 9, and with the same defense

And sure 01 was a 2 man team, but pippen is the ultimate team player. Everbody would be involved

[GOBB]

Hey I'm just saying what Wade did. As far as comparing the talents of Pippen team or trying to slight him because his teams (minus MJ we're talkin about correct?) won more games? Not my goal.

What has me picking Wade over Pippen is scoring prowess and the game changed from when Pippen played where his defense would be limited a bit. The way he defended people back then I dont think he'd be able too today given the rules. And how much guys like Wade, Bron, Durant are so favored.


I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure Seattle made the selection on behalf of Chicago (that's who Krause told them to pick).

You could be right.

[97 bulls]

Wade has played on weak teams, thats what he did.
Yes he has and with weak results. In a weak conference.

[Soundwave]

The other thing about Scottie (and Horace Grant) is they did sometimes lose focus/tend to slack a bit.

Jordan really had to carry more of the load in both of the Bulls threepeat years.

Without MJ around to whip the horses (as it were) ... that would've been interesting for the Lakers ... because Shaq really isn't that type of a fiery personality either.

Sometimes you need a little fire in the locker room.

[GOBB]

Yes he has and with weak results. In a weak conference.

:roll:

:wtf:

[GOBB]

The other thing about Scottie (and Horace Grant) is they did sometimes lose focus/tend to slack a bit.

Jordan really had to carry more of the load in both of the Bulls threepeat years.

Without MJ around to whip the horses (as it were) ... that would've been interesting for the Lakers ... because Shaq really isn't that type of a fiery personality either.

Sometimes you need a little fire in the locker room.

Good point

[97 bulls]

Hey I'm just saying what Wade did. As far as comparing the talents of Pippen team or trying to slight him because his teams (minus MJ we're talkin about correct?) won more games? Not my goal.

What has me picking Wade over Pippen is scoring prowess and the game changed from when Pippen played where his defense would be limited a bit. The way he defended people back then I dont think he'd be able too today given the rules. And how much guys like Wade, Bron, Durant are so favored.



You could be right.
Soundwave is right. He was drafted by seattle and traded to the bulls for olden polynice

Back to the topic, I think pippen would be a better defender now seeing as how he wouldn't have to worry about illegal defense

[97 bulls]

:roll:

:wtf:
The eastern conference hasn't been weak for the last like 7 to 8 years?

[GOBB]

Soundwave is right. He was drafted by seattle and traded to the bulls for olden polynice

Back to the topic, I think pippen would be a better defender now seeing as how he wouldn't have to worry about illegal defense

I dont know. Even Pippen said the way he played defense he couldnt in todays game.

[GOBB]

The eastern conference hasn't been weak for the last like 7 to 8 years?

You typed that twice. Just funny to me. And weird at the same time.

[Smoke117]

I dont know. Even Pippen said the way he played defense he couldnt in todays game.

That's one on one defense and that's just talking. He was speaking more on the face of defense now more than anything. A great player would adapt. Either way, the best aspect of his defense and what made him so dominating was his help/team defense and as the person you replied to said...that would only get better since he wouldn't have to worry about illegal defense. I've always thought Pippen on the opposing teams best scorer was a waste as it made him have to stick to one man. He was able to create much more havok when he was able to play off his man and use his athleticism and length to roam.

[GOBB]

That's one on one defense and that's just talking.

It wasnt just talkin. He made a point that when a guy is going off scoring he and defenders during his day would physically beat up the scorer on his way up the court. In todays game you cant do that. He made mention of handchecking and dictating/guiding a player where he wants him to go. Cant do that in todays game.

Sure he'd have to adapt. But the defense we saw back then I dont see it being played today. Doesnt mean he be a bad defender but nothing on par than what I'm used to seeing. And that has less to do with his abilities, more to do with the change of th game.

You say its just talkin (because you want to believe what you want which is fine)...however I will side with his views on todays game. More offensive driven. And he's right.

[Smoke117]

It wasnt just talkin. He made a point that when a guy is going off scoring he and defenders during his day would physically beat up the scorer on his way up the court. In todays game you cant do that. He made mention of handchecking and dictating/guiding a player where he wants him to go. Cant do that in todays game.

Sure he'd have to adapt. But the defense we saw back then I dont see it being played today. Doesnt mean he be a bad defender but nothing on par than what I'm used to seeing. And that has less to do with his abilities, more to do with the change of th game.

You say its just talkin (because you want to believe what you want which is fine)...however I will side with his views on todays game. More offensive driven. And he's right.

In the end its all about footwork though...taking away the hand check would only affect players who relied on their hands and had bad foot work. Pippen always had excellent footwork defensively. He was mostly speaking contemptuously about the new rules. What he said I took more as him trying to say how easy they are making it for the scorers now and he said what he said mostly to make the changes look bad. I just don't see how he would not be the best perimeter defense of player right now new rules or not. He has a tremendous basketball IQ, great defensive instincts, and the athleticism to go with that.

Whether the game is more offensive driven and he couldn't do what he did before isn't the point. Maybe he couldn't be as dominant as he was, but he'd still be the best defensive player on the perimeter right now. A rule change is not going to change all I mentioned he has going for him up above. And as I said before, as far as help/team defense...the hand check rule basically doesn't matter and that was what made him so dominant. His one on one defense would be affected, but his help/team defense would only get a boost and that attribute of his defense was what made him so dominant anyway.

[97 bulls]

It wasnt just talkin. He made a point that when a guy is going off scoring he and defenders during his day would physically beat up the scorer on his way up the court. In todays game you cant do that. He made mention of handchecking and dictating/guiding a player where he wants him to go. Cant do that in todays game.

Sure he'd have to adapt. But the defense we saw back then I dont see it being played today. Doesnt mean he be a bad defender but nothing on par than what I'm used to seeing. And that has less to do with his abilities, more to do with the change of th game.

You say its just talkin (because you want to believe what you want which is fine)...however I will side with his views on todays game. More offensive driven. And he's right.
I agree gobb. But smoke is right. Pippen was a great man defener. And that was what he was referring to. But even if that was sacrificed, his bigger strength was the havoc he caused off the ball. And if he didn't have to worry about getting called for illegal defense he would be better overall. But he would adapt on man defense either way.

[GOBB]

I'm a Pippen fan so thats cool. Good arguments and I tend to agree now. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

You typed that twice. Just funny to me. And weird at the same time.
But is it true?
I took the liberty of looking up wades miami heat team he lead to 43 win back in I believ 08. And compared it to pippens 95 team that he lead to 34-30 before jordan came back. Which is a similar pace I think pips team on that pace finishes with 44 wins.

You tell me who had the better roster:

95 bulls 34-31 (44-38 pace) before jordan came
Bj armstrong,steve kerr, will perdue, ron harper, pete myers, bill wennington, corie blount, larry krystowak, luc longley.

08 heat 43-39
michael beasley, jermaine oneal, shawn marion ( he was eventually traded but played 40 games for the heat) udonis haslem, mario chalmers, james jones, jamario moon, joel anthony, chris quinn.

The heat have the better roster and pippen faired better.

[Jimmy2k8]

Bump.